BONUS： Your Spiritual Duty to Vote ｜ Guest： Josh Howerton
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
171.47115
Summary
Pastor Josh Howerton, the pastor of a huge church outside of Dallas, Texas, Lake Point, went viral a couple weeks ago for his sermon on politics and how Christians should vote. So many people appreciated this sermon, but he also got a little bit of backlash for saying things like Here s a list of the top 17 of the illegal immigrants in the United States.
Transcript
00:00:00.660
Josh Howerton, the pastor of a huge church outside of Dallas, Texas, Lake Point, went viral a couple weeks ago for his sermon on politics and how Christians should vote.
00:00:16.320
So many people appreciated this, but he also got a little bit of backlash for saying things like this.
00:00:23.880
Of the illegal immigrants in the United States right now, 425,000 of them are known to have criminal records.
00:00:34.040
16,000 of them entered our nation as convicted rapists.
00:00:40.200
13,000 of them entered our nation as convicted murderers.
00:00:50.940
So you need to ask yourself the question, you do, you need to ask yourself the question, which candidate will best protect our national security?
00:01:00.540
You know, I love to see this kind of boldness in a pastor.
00:01:04.980
So Pastor Josh is with us today, and he is going to tell us from a biblical perspective why Christians have a spiritual responsibility to vote and how we should think about whom to vote for.
00:01:16.000
This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:01:22.240
Pastor Josh, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
00:01:35.180
First, I just want to back up and hear about how you became a pastor.
00:01:46.000
And our 13-year-old daughter has been watching in preparation to see Daddy on this thing.
00:01:59.960
The Lord has been very kind to me through two generations.
00:02:02.780
So my Papa Jerry was a pastor in rural Baptist churches in Kentucky, all over the place.
00:02:12.780
And retiring this month from 52 years of faithful gospel ministry.
00:02:18.560
And so, you know, honestly, I grew up like kind of a church rat, like, and I loved it.
00:02:25.700
And then, man, God called me to ministry early high school.
00:02:29.780
And then, you know, pretty normal path from there, you know.
00:02:39.000
So Charles Spurgeon talks about three aspects of calling, internal calling, external calling,
00:02:46.640
So like, just really early, I was watching my dad.
00:02:56.840
And honestly, I just watched my dad, like, I kept hearing all these stories about God
00:03:03.640
So, you know, very early on, I was just like, I would love to do that.
00:03:09.980
And then in high school, like, I just, you know, I got thrust into the FCA leadership
00:03:17.200
And other people just started going, you know, hey, Josh, would you do this?
00:03:24.400
And then God just started to open up doors, you know, to this day, cut me open.
00:03:30.040
I just, you know, so it kind of just progressed from there.
00:03:35.660
Yeah, I grew up in, I think what somebody would probably call, like, kind of a sinner,
00:03:42.360
Baptist, seeker sensitive, yeah, classic Baptist church.
00:04:08.000
And this was, like, before church planting was cool.
00:04:12.400
He parachuted into a city, rubbed two sticks together, you know, started church.
00:04:18.380
So long story short, while he's doing that, I'm finishing up college.
00:04:25.240
I'm a youth pastor at First Baptist Church, Mount Washington, Kentucky.
00:04:31.720
And then dad had to step away from his church plant.
00:04:35.920
He was traveling, like, 200 days a year with LifeWay.
00:04:38.640
And long story short, God called me to do that.
00:04:43.300
I'm there for 10 years, and the Lord just did a really sweet work, a really sweet work.
00:04:50.000
And Pastor Steve Stroop, founding pastor of Lake Point Church, I was in this little cohort
00:04:55.540
with him where they would take younger pastors of growing churches and stick them, you know,
00:05:02.100
And he invested in me, and it was just, we formed a bond.
00:05:06.860
And then it developed into a coaching thing, which developed into him asking me to succeed him.
00:05:13.760
And then the Lord, like, axe-level supernatural things called us to Lake Point six years in.
00:05:23.720
You know, it'll range now between 19 and 24,000.
00:05:36.160
They're seriously, they're the best people in the world.
00:05:46.740
So the youth pastor, my youth pastor, Jeff Carlisle, great man.
00:05:52.120
He, as soon as I got saved, like, he personally discipled me.
00:05:55.340
So, like, I'm very early on, just personal discipleship.
00:06:00.980
She was, you know, a sorority thing in college.
00:06:06.480
As soon as she got saved, Jeff's wife, she went to college in the city where I went to high school.
00:06:26.680
And they literally, Allie, they sat down with, you remember the old church directories with the pictures?
00:06:33.940
So they literally sat down and they're going through and like, what about him?
00:06:37.840
And then, you know, and then they got to me and, you know.
00:06:42.200
You know, it was more like Jeff and Mary Beth were like, it should be this guy.
00:07:02.680
And y'all have three sweet, precious, beautiful kids.
00:07:10.960
Hudson, my five-year-old prayed for you this morning.
00:07:19.240
All right, you have probably gone viral a few times, but most recently, this was about
00:07:26.060
a sermon that started circulating online about the election that's coming up, and you
00:07:33.420
We covered it on this show, and you said, look, this is what both sides stand for.
00:07:39.080
Here's what the Bible has to say about these things.
00:07:42.680
Tell me from your perspective what the response has been.
00:07:52.240
I think I've heard you say before on the show that clarity is kindness, and I increasingly
00:07:59.120
The Apostle Paul said that he commended himself to the conscience of his people by setting forth
00:08:05.780
I increasingly have, you know, a conviction that I don't, honestly, if it is connected
00:08:13.980
to the Word of God, and it's beneficial for discipleship, and I think it, I don't want
00:08:18.460
to be a pastor that has all these things that I think, but that I won't say.
00:08:23.720
And so, honestly, you know, I just, that was my, that was my conviction.
00:08:29.820
Anytime you kind of, you go over the middle, you're going to get hit by a linebacker, and
00:08:40.680
For those who have not seen the whole sermon, first of all, you should.
00:08:47.300
I mean, I really have been thinking about some of the things that you said since then, and
00:08:51.240
I talk about this stuff a lot, but I love how plainly you said the truth.
00:08:57.000
It's really challenged me and encouraged me a lot in how I explain this to Christians.
00:09:00.760
But for those who have it, can you summarize, first, I'll go one by one, first summarize
00:09:11.520
So of everything I said, this was the most controversial.
00:09:19.420
I think Christians have a spiritual responsibility to vote.
00:09:22.720
And I know that can be tough for some people, but let me do, let me back up and do a little
00:09:31.580
This is Abraham Kuyper, sphere, sovereignties, for theological terms.
00:09:37.500
What the scriptures teach is that God has ordered the world in terms of three, God has established
00:09:42.560
three institutions, the family, the church, and the state.
00:09:45.500
In the same way, and we can talk, there's tentacles to this conversation, in the same
00:09:53.900
way that it would be morally wrong for a husband to refuse to lead his family, and it would
00:09:59.840
be morally wrong for a pastor to refuse to lead his church, it would be morally wrong
00:10:05.880
for the leaders of a nation to refuse to lead the nation.
00:10:08.600
Now, a lot of people hear that and they're like, well, of course, Josh, presidents should
00:10:11.740
lead and senators and congressmen, but this is what's really important.
00:10:22.080
In a constitutional republic, I'll ask you a question.
00:10:24.760
In a constitutional republic, the elected officials are representatives of the people.
00:10:32.300
So in a constitutional republic, the voters are at the top of the org chart.
00:10:37.440
So I think that's something that I think a lot of well-meaning, but I'll gently say maybe
00:10:44.060
a little naive, a lot of well-meaning, but maybe naive Christians forget that, hey, Romans
00:10:50.860
13 says that God has established the governments and governing leaders in our constitutional republic.
00:10:58.740
If you are a voting Christian, God has placed you at this time, in this place, at the top
00:11:06.760
of the constitutional republic org chart in which you find yourself.
00:11:10.440
And so I would gently say, in the same way that if a man won't lead his family, we messed
00:11:15.780
If a pastor won't lead his church, we messed up.
00:11:18.580
If the Christian voters of a nation refuse to lead that nation and abdicate their spiritual
00:11:23.260
responsibility to lead, I think we're messing up.
00:11:27.800
So you're going to see a pattern in the scriptures.
00:11:33.920
The pattern in the scriptures is that, let me get my language right.
00:11:38.080
It's been a few weeks since I preached this sermon.
00:11:40.580
That whatever, I'll do this, whatever God creates, Satan tries to co-opt.
00:11:49.440
You see with the exact same spheres, family, church, state.
00:11:53.860
So in Genesis 2 and 3, Adam refuses to lead his family.
00:11:59.360
So I'll just say this to any husbands listening.
00:12:01.760
The first thing that happens, Adam refuses to lead, so Satan does.
00:12:05.220
So hey, husbands, if you won't lead your family, Satan will be happy too.
00:12:09.460
Okay, well then fast forward all the way to the end of the Bible.
00:12:13.180
In Revelation 2 and 3, you got the seven letters to the church.
00:12:16.280
So what you have there is, remember, what you had was you had some passive pastors.
00:12:22.640
You had some passive pastors who, instead of leading their churches to repent of sin,
00:12:28.860
So they were in their passivity, and Romans 2 and 3 literally says that those churches
00:12:36.320
So hey, pastors, if you won't lead your church, Satan will be happy too.
00:12:40.560
In the same way, if spirit-filled, godly people will not lead their nation by voting,
00:12:52.180
So I just want to mic drop that and let that settle on our spirits.
00:12:55.640
If you, if godly people refuse to exercise their spiritual responsibility for leadership
00:13:02.120
via voting, the only people left influencing the nation are spirit-less, godless people.
00:13:10.080
So if you won't lead your nation, Satan will be happy too.
00:13:17.500
Okay, y'all, I am so excited to tell you about Operation Christmas Child.
00:13:22.200
If you grew up in the church, especially like a good old Baptist church like I did,
00:13:31.180
You choose an age group and boy or girl, and then you fill this with non-perishable items,
00:13:39.320
with toys and clothing and art supplies for a child in need.
00:13:45.540
And I have a friend who is from Zimbabwe, and she actually saw firsthand kids in Africa
00:13:52.520
who had never gotten a present before open these, and the joy that it brought these kids
00:14:02.680
And every time I see a video of kids opening these boxes, it just warms my heart so much.
00:14:08.220
This is a great way to show the tangible love of Christ through our generosity.
00:14:11.720
And it's also a really sweet thing to do with your kids as you are teaching them
00:14:15.700
about love, about generosity, about how to help those who don't have as much as we do.
00:14:21.200
National Collection Week for your shoebox for Operation Christmas Child
00:14:30.400
The shoeboxes will be collected across the country at nearly 4,500 drop-off locations.
00:14:36.100
All you have to do is go to SamaritansPurse.org slash OCC to learn how to pack a shoebox,
00:15:01.420
Oh, by the way, if Christians are trying to influence the public sphere,
00:15:09.140
Okay, because I think, okay, so let me just say, if you're a person who you feel the things
00:15:13.400
that Allie just said, first of all, let me just say, I get it.
00:15:16.620
Like, honestly, if you got in a time machine and you had this conversation with me,
00:15:20.540
I'm going to say eight years ago, I literally would have said what you just said.
00:15:24.900
But then we have these Bible verses, these pesky Bible verses.
00:15:31.340
You know, you said, hey, Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.
00:15:34.960
But he also said, he also prayed, your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.
00:15:41.200
Like, for some reason, I feel like we sort of selectively apply the verses.
00:15:45.580
I have thoughts about why that may or may not happen.
00:15:48.720
I feel like sometimes we'll selectively edit which verses will apply
00:15:51.880
so that the ratchet only goes in one direction.
00:15:54.820
Here's another one that a lot of people objected to the sermon.
00:16:06.740
Jesus said, give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what's God's.
00:16:11.180
And a lot of people use that verse to mean, hey, just do your spiritual thing over here
00:16:15.520
with the church and let, you know, let Caesar do his thing with the government.
00:16:19.340
That is not at all what that verse is talking about.
00:16:23.640
So you remember it, what Jesus does, he takes the coin and he goes, hey, this is really
00:16:38.200
You know, and Jesus goes, well, then give to Caesar what's Caesar's and God what's God's.
00:16:41.500
But Jesus is drawing on our theology from Genesis.
00:16:47.620
And Jesus, this is so, it's the genius of Jesus.
00:16:51.680
Jesus is implicitly asking everyone the question, so whose image and likeness is on you?
00:16:58.020
And he's going, okay, well, then you need to give yourself to, because you were created
00:17:12.860
So when people go, hey, give to Caesar what's Caesar's and give to God what's God's, and
00:17:17.520
they take that to me and keep the spiritual over here and the civic over here, eh, wrong.
00:17:24.820
Because every civic leader, Caesar, is created in God's image, and therefore, they owe their
00:17:34.860
And in Romans 13, as you already referenced, the government was instituted by God.
00:17:44.340
Well, I think if somebody says that, you know, hey, so that begs a question.
00:17:47.520
The question is, who gets to define what's good and evil?
00:17:54.460
In any government, you have to ask the question, okay, yes, government punishes evil, rewards
00:18:05.060
And we're obviously reading in Romans 13 that God established the civic authorities.
00:18:13.200
Therefore, the government is on the hook for rewarding good in God's eyes, punishing evil
00:18:27.320
So I think the government, if you zoom all the way out, the government has three big rock
00:18:35.360
And then I think you could say protect borders from foreign invasion.
00:18:39.440
We literally have a government doing the reverse image of those three things right now.
00:18:43.980
We have a government that is rewarding evil, that is at times punishing good, and that is
00:18:48.740
facilitating, you know, invasion might be an aggressive word, but it might not be.
00:18:59.220
Do you want to do the Christian nationalism thing?
00:19:01.340
Yeah, but I just want to pause on something that you said, because I reference Romans 13
00:19:05.520
a lot to explain to people that part of our responsibility is to engage civically because
00:19:14.300
And as you've already mentioned, we have this right, have this privilege living here in
00:19:17.680
the United States to choose our public servants.
00:19:21.040
That's who they're supposed to be, to represent our own interests.
00:19:23.780
But I don't know if I've ever gone so far as to say what you just said, which is so
00:19:30.120
The truth is, if it's not Christians, as you mentioned earlier, it's going to be someone
00:19:34.860
Some people have this idea that you can compartmentalize your faith from your politics, and somehow
00:19:40.380
we come up with this like neutral secular ideology, which is not neutral at all.
00:19:45.160
But every law was formed by a worldview, a view of morality.
00:19:51.340
Every single law is a legislation of morality, even a speeding law.
00:19:55.440
It is wrong to go past the speed limit for particular reasons.
00:20:03.320
Don't we want it to be the followers of the God who created good and who defines what is
00:20:12.380
Well, and on that, you know, what you get into is the two objections to what you just
00:20:18.360
said are separation of church and state, and then you can't legislate morality.
00:20:23.320
I don't know if you want to do that or you want to do the Christian nationalism thing.
00:20:26.340
Let's go with that first, and then we can go into the Christian nationalism thing.
00:20:30.280
What do you say when people are like, yeah, the separation of church and state, so Christians
00:20:40.960
Let's go back to the original intent of the phrase separation of church and state.
00:20:49.920
But I do know this, that the phrase separation of church and state is not in our governing
00:20:55.680
Separation of church and state originally appeared in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury
00:21:00.740
Baptists in the 1700s, and the purpose of the phrase was to protect the church from interference
00:21:13.740
So if you go back to the 1700s, you know, you're in the context of Revolutionary War,
00:21:18.720
all the things you had in England, which we obviously revolted, revolution, revolted from.
00:21:32.860
So you got these Danbury Baptists that are like, oh, we're scared that's going to happen
00:21:36.500
And Thomas Jefferson writes, and he goes, nope, that's not going to happen because we believe
00:21:44.620
So that doesn't mean this is, here's the language that's important.
00:21:47.640
Separation of church and state does not mean a separation of morality and state.
00:21:52.320
As you have just stated, that is literally impossible.
00:21:56.720
We may get to this at some point later, but morality is all that gets legislated.
00:22:03.760
Every law that has ever existed legislates a morality.
00:22:07.980
So separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of morality and state.
00:22:12.880
And separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of politics and religion.
00:22:17.620
That's actually impossible and clearly not what the founders desired.
00:22:22.120
Separation of church and state, it means a separation of governments.
00:22:26.000
So this is what Thomas Jefferson was speaking into.
00:22:28.380
I know you know this, but for our readers, for our listeners, this is what he was speaking
00:22:32.840
into is the English-British situation where the governing entities of the state and the
00:22:42.600
So what it's saying is the same guy that's the president of the government shouldn't also
00:22:52.040
That's what separation of church and state means.
00:22:54.200
And again, its intent was to keep the government from interfering with the church, you know,
00:22:59.820
like the government telling churches they have to shut down for two years.
00:23:05.660
Which is interesting because I did not hear those who typically cry out separation of church
00:23:10.980
They weren't concerned at all when the state tried to infiltrate the church during COVID,
00:23:17.560
But just to add on to that, separation of church and state is also not separation of God
00:23:24.660
And that is something that we see in our founding documents.
00:23:26.980
Obviously, the Declaration of Independence described our rights as inalienable because they come
00:23:34.060
And so the founders actually could not even foresee, couldn't construct a country without
00:23:39.480
the idea of a transcendent power giving us our rights.
00:23:44.360
That's kind of the entire basis of self-governance.
00:23:47.980
I mean, it's just, you know, it's just plain logic.
00:23:51.080
How are you going to have a morality, moral law without a moral lawgiver?
00:23:55.760
Our founders very clearly understood that, you know, endowed by our creator.
00:24:00.180
And then I'm not going to get all the facts right here, but there is a laundry list of
00:24:07.000
things like, you know, 11 out of the original 13 colonies had in their charters, you know,
00:24:14.120
affiliations with denominations and things like this.
00:24:18.960
And actually, there were qualifications for holding office and the original 13 colonies were
00:24:25.420
that you had to be, even in some cases, like a very specific kind of Protestant.
00:24:30.540
And so this is in the foundation of our country for sure.
00:24:34.000
On the Christian nationalism piece, what I notice is that it's only conservative Christians
00:24:38.760
who are told that allowing our faith to inform our politics is theocracy.
00:24:44.800
But when Kamala Harris, when she gets up at a church and she says, you know, weeping lasts
00:24:50.560
for the night, but joy cometh in the morning, and the joy is herself, that apparently is
00:24:59.400
It's only if you and I say, hey, you know, Psalm 139 makes pretty clear that God even formed
00:25:07.660
That to me means there's a value of life inside the womb.
00:25:09.800
We probably shouldn't legally kill those babies.
00:25:11.860
That all of a sudden is scary Christian nationalism.
00:25:19.940
There's a little bit, and this is a bit of a side tangent.
00:25:23.160
I think there's a lot of pastors that are trying to figure out the moment.
00:25:26.960
You know, if you kind of go back, I'd say in the last 15, 20 years, for a variety of reasons,
00:25:35.580
some well-meaning and some maybe not as well-meaning, there's sometimes a bit of a tendency
00:25:40.280
to do, I call it coddle left, punch right, coddle left, punch right, right.
00:25:43.960
So, man, if it's a left-coded issue or statement, man, we're very thoughtful, we're very reasoning,
00:25:50.200
we're very affirming of, let's find what we can affirm.
00:25:53.060
If it's a right-coded issue, it's like prophetic declaration and tear that, you know, all the
00:25:58.760
So you'll see this with some of the language, that when a Christian stands on the scriptures
00:26:04.620
to advocate for a right-coded issue, that's scary Christian nationalism.
00:26:10.540
When somebody stands on a Bible verse to advocate for a left-coded issue, that's prophetic witness
00:26:19.020
It's faithful presence is what that is, you know.
00:26:24.520
I just got to say, I think you got to try not to see that.
00:26:31.100
So when you get to the Christian nationalism thing, you know, I think that's what you see.
00:26:37.500
So my little thing that I say is, I say 99% of the time, 99% of the time when somebody
00:26:45.260
uses the phrase Christian nationalism, it is an intentionally unstable scare label whose
00:26:50.920
subtext is, I'm allowed to advocate for my values in the public square, but you're not
00:26:59.680
So if you're a Christian and somebody lobs this at you, ooh, that's, you're pro-life,
00:27:06.740
You believe in a biblical definition of marriage in how society is ordered.
00:27:14.440
What you will always notice is the person who is saying that to you is extremely comfortable
00:27:19.980
advocating for their beliefs about those issues in the public square.
00:27:24.100
And if you trace their beliefs all the way down to the bottom, again, you can't have
00:27:31.440
If you trace their beliefs all the way down to the bottom, they are making some religious
00:27:36.320
faith assumptions in how they arrived at their worldview as well.
00:27:40.440
So it just so happens that it's okay for them to advocate for their religious faith assumptions
00:27:47.000
But when you do it, you're a scary Christian nationalist.
00:27:50.760
And a lot of times it's not even the so-called progressive Christians, because I certainly
00:27:55.160
see that from them, that they will cherry pick Bible verses and they will say, this should
00:28:00.400
Like the early church shared things with each other, so communism is great.
00:28:03.740
Or God told ancient Israel to love the foreigner.
00:28:11.200
But if we do even proper exegesis to say, well, these are the principles we see throughout
00:28:21.000
That, especially as you said, if it lands on a right-coded conclusion or in support of a
00:28:26.700
conservative policy, that's when things become very scary and nationalistic and fascist and
00:28:34.160
So the other thing I would say about the Christian nationalism thing is I do think that there's,
00:28:40.080
and by the way, like almost nothing that I'm saying right now is original to me.
00:28:44.980
I do think that when it comes to this, there's confusing, maybe intentional confusion in the
00:28:52.200
I think when some people, like if you're a listener to Allie, you probably are a little
00:28:56.320
more discerning, but you may have had this thrown at you and not known what to do with
00:29:03.040
You know, that's, and what people do is they think, when they hear the word nationalism,
00:29:07.960
they think the person is referring to ordered affections.
00:29:12.940
Oh, if you're a nationalist, that means that you love your country more than God.
00:29:20.820
When we're talking about nationalism, when people are talking about nationalism, they're
00:29:24.540
almost exclusively referring to the span of government.
00:29:28.560
That's what they're almost exclusively referring to.
00:29:30.620
So you have three options, you have tribalism, nationalism, or globalism.
00:29:34.260
You know, tribalism is, you know, that's a bunch of very small self-contained tribes
00:29:40.060
Nationalism is what we have right now in the world, in general, in the world, in general.
00:29:46.920
That's a, let me just go ahead and get this out here.
00:29:59.540
So when people are saying nationalism, what they're not saying is, oh, we want you to
00:30:08.900
It would, it is definitely a sin to love your nation more than you love Jesus.
00:30:13.120
I just happen to think that's like not true of almost anybody.
00:30:18.660
So people are talking about span of governments.
00:30:21.160
So once you get there, then you go, okay, nationalism was where we are.
00:30:23.980
Then you got to go, well, what kind of nationalism do you want?
00:30:30.960
And because we're Christians, you know, I honestly think this is pretty basic.
00:30:35.180
Like if I were to have a conversation with you, Allie, and we were talking about this,
00:30:38.320
the first thing I would just ask is if you're a Christian, do you believe that society would
00:30:43.280
be better if in general, our society followed Christian principles and ethics?
00:30:51.780
And if you say no, as a Christian, my question would be why?
00:30:57.600
Like, do you not believe God's ways are better?
00:31:00.100
And if God created the heavens and the earth, then he's the authority over all of it, the
00:31:05.500
And by the way, he's not just the authority and creator.
00:31:09.240
So everything God says and does, he says and does from love.
00:31:12.900
And so if I'm to love my neighbor, how can I love him in a way that God detests or disagrees
00:31:28.340
Next and last sponsor for the day is First Liberty.
00:31:31.400
First Liberty is on the front lines fighting for the First Amendment rights of American
00:31:37.680
It is the largest legal organization in the nation dedicated exclusively to defending
00:31:45.000
So, for example, service members who didn't want to get the experimental COVID vaccine and
00:31:52.360
were punished by the military for that decision, even though this was a decision they made in
00:31:59.840
conjunction, in alignment with their conscience, with their religious beliefs.
00:32:10.420
And right now, the Biden administration and Harris, as a candidate, is promising to pack
00:32:17.240
and expand the Supreme Court with progressive activists, in which case we could kiss our constitutional
00:32:25.160
First Liberty is doing everything they can to make sure that doesn't happen.
00:32:29.160
All you have to do is go to SupremeCoup.com slash Stuckey.
00:32:37.800
Learn how you can help stop the radical left's takeover of the Supreme Court.
00:32:41.080
You know, I also notice this idea that, you know, we can leave our Christian faith behind
00:32:49.980
and then when we go into the public sphere, we don this, like, neutral secular ideology.
00:32:55.700
But this neutral secular ideology says that babies don't become people until they go through
00:33:02.940
That's a superstitious, non-scientific, weird belief and believes that kids can be born in
00:33:10.680
So people who believe that, they get to insert their definitions, their weird beliefs into
00:33:21.280
They define policy and recommendations from our, you know, the ivory towers, from the halls
00:33:27.820
of power, our bureaucracy is defined by progressive ideology, which is not neutral.
00:33:37.080
And so why does a progressive secularist who has their own dogmas and their own pseudo-religion,
00:33:49.440
But my view as a Christian who just believes, as you said, in a moral lawgiver, why is mine
00:33:57.820
Yes, and I say we all should bring the fullness of our worldview into the public sphere and
00:34:08.020
So what you're talking about, Allie, especially where your listeners will get this thrown at
00:34:14.220
them or they'll feel it, is what you're talking about is loaded into the phrase, you can't
00:34:23.660
That's the worldview behind the phrase, you can't legislate morality, is the myth of neutrality.
00:34:30.320
So that's what you're, that's what, if you're listening, that's what Allie's driving at.
00:34:35.060
That there's some way for us to sort of just order society to where nobody's beliefs are
00:34:42.120
infringed upon and, you know, that sort of thing.
00:34:45.280
And, you know, we can rip the mask off that really fast.
00:34:49.100
Because here's what, you can't legislate morality.
00:34:56.060
I'll just, I'll just, that's another one where you see coddle left, punch right.
00:35:02.980
So for instance, and as others have pointed this out, a great example of this is with abortion.
00:35:08.960
So somebody may say to a Christian that has a consistent pro-life ethic, which I do just
00:35:17.600
It is a tragedy that we do not have a consistently pro-life candidate in front of us right now.
00:35:32.220
What a pro-choice person might say to you is, hey, when you advocate for pro-life legislation,
00:35:39.040
you're trying to force your morality on the mother.
00:35:42.380
And honestly, the answer to that question is, yes.
00:35:49.080
But the question is not whether morality is going to get legislated.
00:35:54.720
The question is whose morality is going to get legislated.
00:35:57.340
Because when somebody advocates for a pro-choice position, their morality gets very violently
00:36:05.980
So see, what everyone needs to understand is morality is the only thing that ever gets
00:36:14.420
There is no neutral position with an example like the one we just pointed out.
00:36:30.000
And I don't like the policies maybe of the left, but Trump, I just don't like some of
00:36:38.700
So maybe I just won't vote or I'll vote third party.
00:36:42.560
I just, I can't vote between the lesser of two evils.
00:36:46.500
First of all, let me just say, if you feel that way, dude, honestly, I kind of get it.
00:36:52.500
Like if I was drawn up by perfect candidate, you know, I'm not looking at one of them right
00:36:59.780
But here's a few things that I would say to that person.
00:37:03.420
I honestly think what happens there is it's two misunderstandings stacked on top of each
00:37:10.020
A misunderstanding about what a vote is and is not.
00:37:17.200
So let me, and then the other thing is a taxonomy of biblical leaders.
00:37:25.400
So a few things I talk about this in the sermon, so I'll try to condense.
00:37:28.660
Maybe not everyone heard this and this is a really important point.
00:37:32.240
So number one, you know, it's, they're little pithy statements.
00:37:37.060
Um, you know, number one, a vote is not a Valentine.
00:37:40.080
And you know, that's like, uh, the great example, you know, you're in middle school and
00:37:44.800
you walk in and you're like, Oh, they're so cool and cute and funny.
00:37:49.500
And that's how you decide who you give your Valentine to.
00:37:51.740
Um, I hope it goes without saying that to everyone that's listening, that's not how
00:37:59.320
So honestly, a great example of this, um, is the 1960 presidential election.
00:38:05.000
You had JFK, Richard Nixon, first televised presidential debate ever before the debate.
00:38:13.940
They walk in and do the first ever presidential debate.
00:38:17.760
Nixon, a little older chooses not to do the makeup, all the things, uh, Kennedy younger,
00:38:26.520
And I, I think I read something like 20 or 40 million people, even back then watch that debate.
00:38:36.000
And you know, the polls radically swung to JFK after the debate because people were like,
00:38:49.100
So what mature Christians should not do, God specifically says this in first Samuel is look
00:38:56.500
It's like, we shouldn't vote based on like vibes.
00:39:00.200
Or I like his, you know, personality, or he's got the same skin color as me, or she'd be
00:39:09.560
The other one that I think is really important is for people, uh, to understand that a, a
00:39:19.660
So a sacrament is a religious ritual, like, um, communion, baptism, marriage, and a convictional
00:39:28.300
Christian knows my job is to not let any impurity into those things.
00:39:33.440
And honestly, I think, um, a lot of, um, very, uh, committed, convictional, wonderful
00:39:41.440
Christians are getting tripped up on this because they feel that their vote is like a sacrament
00:39:47.360
and they're like, I'm not supposed to mix any impurity with my vote.
00:39:52.560
Um, but that, that is to misunderstand what a vote is.
00:39:59.940
Uh, a vote is your strategic choice to choose the best available path forward.
00:40:13.000
Um, every election in the history of our nation has been a choice between two evils because
00:40:18.900
every election in the history of our nation has been a choice between two centers.
00:40:25.540
It's a strategic decision about, uh, the best available path forward.
00:40:31.080
So if, let me put this to you in biblical terms, if you're a Christian that's listening.
00:40:35.900
So Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, you're the salt of the earth.
00:40:40.740
Uh, salt is a preservative whose purpose is to slow decay.
00:40:48.280
Um, when a Christian's voting, we're not asking, um, uh, who, uh, is the perfect candidate?
00:40:59.720
We should be asking the question, uh, which candidate's policies is most likely to slow
00:41:17.460
If somebody feels what you just said, I'd say, man, a little bit of a misunderstanding
00:41:24.640
Um, and it's not a full endorsement of necessarily every policy.
00:41:31.880
I believe in the natural biblical definition of marriage.
00:41:34.280
I think that our country would be better off if they were where we are on those things.
00:41:42.120
And some of the things that he said about reproductive technology and abortion, I'm totally
00:41:47.720
But I think some people say that and they leave it at that.
00:41:51.440
But the reality is, is that there's a lot of daylight between the two sides.
00:41:55.520
The Harris Biden administration is imprisoning pro-lifers while rewarding abortionists.
00:42:00.540
Talk about an inverse of Romans 13, whereas Donald Trump is likely to pardon those pro-lifers
00:42:10.580
So just on that alone, there's a huge difference.
00:42:14.160
So like, I'll just, I'll just, you know, dude, I just think you have to acknowledge this.
00:42:23.000
Uh, I, uh, I have not, um, I'm not tying my hope and allegiance to the GOP.
00:42:32.700
Um, but if we're speaking honestly, uh, right now you can literally just go to the RNC website
00:42:41.240
Then one click later, go to the DNC website and read the policies.
00:42:47.400
If this is difficult for somebody to acknowledge, we simp, this moment simply requires somebody
00:42:56.940
In fact, here's, here's, here's my philosophy on this.
00:43:04.700
To whatever degree your party, I don't care who you are, to whatever degree your party
00:43:09.080
is for a team Jesus and team Jesus is, um, ethics policies and guidelines.
00:43:17.300
Whenever you cross that, my job is to stand up and prophetically declare, get back in
00:43:24.600
And listen, I know this is really tough, but right now, if you go to the RNC website, there
00:43:30.240
are, there are no policies on the RNC website, the current platform, where they are advocating,
00:43:36.440
you might correct me, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this because I did a skin before my
00:43:39.540
They are not advocating for the advancement of any evil.
00:43:44.840
However, the D there is only one party that is advocating for demonic perversion.
00:43:52.420
So listen, are, do we have, you know, uh, uh, do we have a perfect thing in front of us?
00:43:59.660
But do we have a morally asymmetrical set of options in front of us?
00:44:05.500
I would say Republicans as a whole, no, but I would disagree with the subsidizing of
00:44:12.340
in vitro fertilization just because of the embryonic destruction there.
00:44:16.100
I would also disagree, um, with the GOP, many in the GOP about like the legalization of weed
00:44:22.840
just because I don't think our society needs that.
00:44:27.660
No, that's what I was about to say is that Trump himself has said those things.
00:44:31.620
But thankfully we live in a world with checks and balances to where it's Congress who writes
00:44:41.340
And so I'm more concerned about that, but we shouldn't look at on either side of any,
00:44:53.000
Look at the policies that they represent and also look at what they have done.
00:44:57.340
Kamala Harris isn't hiding the fact that she was the furthest left Senate while she's trying
00:45:02.240
to hide the fact that she was the furthest left Senator when she was in the Senate, even
00:45:09.000
That's what they should look at before putting all of the weight on these politicians' words.
00:45:23.300
I am so excited about election coverage at Blaze TV.
00:45:33.500
You get a really big discount on your Blaze subscription when you do $40 off.
00:45:40.120
And you can join us that night to get all of my commentary on everything that's going on
00:45:54.160
The other thing I would say is I do think a lot of Christians, they think in a binary
00:46:00.760
when it comes to types of leaders, and it causes them to put any flawed leader, lump all
00:46:07.820
flawed leaders into one category and flatten it.
00:46:13.340
So in the Old Testament, you have a taxonomy of three types of leaders.
00:46:22.100
Young, righteous, essentially is converted, regenerated, discovers the Old Testament law
00:46:29.120
back in a church closet somewhere, reads it to the entire nation, leads the nation in
00:46:36.660
And dude, I'll just, you know, by heart, like I love my country and I love Jesus a lot more
00:46:48.320
Like, I would just be overwhelmed to see a national revival like that in our day.
00:46:54.420
So a Josiah leader is a righteous leader who celebrates and promotes righteousness.
00:47:00.600
Then you have a second category of leaders like Ahab and Jezebel leaders.
00:47:04.780
I'm just picking them because the Old Testament says those are the most wicked leaders Israel
00:47:09.400
Those are leaders who celebrate and promote wickedness.
00:47:15.240
You had passive evil king, promiscuous controlling queen, celebrated godlessness and perversion.
00:47:27.820
A lot of Christians think those are the only two types of leaders you got.
00:47:31.060
If they think that, then what ends up happening to them is they look at any leader with flaws
00:47:36.660
and they just lump them into category two and they morally flatten the playing field.
00:47:41.900
But in the Old Testament, there's actually a third type of leader.
00:47:49.000
Jehu was the king that came right after Ahab and Jezebel.
00:48:12.120
Like, this was in my quiet time, like, two weeks ago.
00:48:16.760
He permitted golden calf worship to continue in Israel, didn't tear down the high places,
00:48:29.040
So I think, why is Christians have to have a third category of leader in their head?
00:48:33.300
And they, man, sometimes what you have is you've got a really flawed leader that God still uses for some good purposes.
00:48:40.480
Or if you want to, you could say, or that is still used for good purposes.
00:48:44.340
And I think Christians need to have a moral imagination that is as—I hate the word nuance.
00:49:01.340
What is some final encouragement that you would give to Christians in this time?
00:49:07.280
Let's say it's for the Christians who are dedicated to listening to this show.
00:49:11.020
So they've all already voted, or they are definitely voting.
00:49:14.020
The Christians who are engaged, but they're like, look, I am nervous.
00:49:17.720
I am so nervous about what's going to happen in the next few months, in the next few years.
00:49:22.400
I know Jesus is coming back, but I just need some encouragement to cling to.
00:49:30.640
So in my time of the word this morning, my heart was overwhelmed with this.
00:49:39.380
Every single time there is a national revival in the scriptures, it's always in a period of degradation and decline.
00:49:50.440
We literally have a command, do not trust in princes.
00:49:56.220
Let me just, some Christians say, do not trust in princes.
00:50:01.260
But at the end of the day, if enough people are not converted, filled with the spirit of God, Bible in their hands, wisdom in their heads,
00:50:09.820
then even if the right policies and leaders get put forward, there's not enough people to vote for them.
00:50:15.500
So like our great hope is, and I'm not saying if, I'm saying when.
00:50:21.780
Our great hope is when the next awakening, reformation and revival happens and it sweeps our nation.
00:50:27.740
The Lord has done it before and he's going to do it again.
00:50:30.920
And it usually happens in a period of decline and decay.
00:50:38.320
The other one, I'm always like, as a pastor, I'm always trying to like find what Bible story is a good archetype for our cultural moment.
00:50:49.660
And I honestly think Elijah during Ahab and Jezebel is a good map.
00:50:57.060
And so if you're a Christian who, like me, I was talking to my dad about this a few weeks ago.
00:51:01.180
If you're a Christian who's, you've been alive for a minute and you're going like, dang, man, like it's rough out here.
00:51:15.320
So what you have is you have a nation that's marked by passive men and promiscuous, controlling women.
00:51:22.580
You have incredible moral decay, perversion rising, opposition to godliness.
00:51:35.600
They shut down, canceled, deplatformed all the truth speaking prophets.
00:51:40.360
And at the end of his little ministry spot there, Elijah's on the mountain.
00:51:44.640
And he's like, man, like, I think I'm the only one left.
00:51:48.960
And I think Christians right now, they can feel like really alone.
00:51:51.600
Like, man, like I got friends deconverting and deconstructing.
00:51:54.860
And man, I thought that pastor was going to be solid.
00:51:59.120
And, uh, and then the Lord's like, Hey, I've reserved 7,000 who didn't bow the knee to bail.
00:52:05.800
And God's telling him, I always preserve a remnant for revival that will lead to a resurgence of my purposes in the church.
00:52:20.740
And if people want to reach out to you, ask you questions, can they do that?
00:52:28.200
It gets me in trouble sometimes, but I enjoy it.
00:52:35.560
Well, it depends who, uh, some people think it's great.
00:52:39.480
Some people don't, but of course that's the arena.
00:52:42.660
So Instagram, I think is at Josh underscore Howerton.
00:52:48.500
I'm getting a thumbs up from my social media people.