Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - BONUS： Your Spiritual Duty to Vote ｜ Guest： Josh Howerton

00:00:00.660 Josh Howerton, the pastor of a huge church outside of Dallas, Texas, Lake Point, went viral a couple weeks ago for his sermon on politics and how Christians should vote.

00:00:13.820 He was so clear and so courageous.

00:00:16.320 So many people appreciated this, but he also got a little bit of backlash for saying things like this.

00:00:23.100 Here's top 17.

00:00:23.880 Of the illegal immigrants in the United States right now, 425,000 of them are known to have criminal records.

00:00:34.040 16,000 of them entered our nation as convicted rapists.

00:00:40.200 13,000 of them entered our nation as convicted murderers.

00:00:46.140 I just have to ask this question.

00:00:47.820 Where was the borders are?

00:00:49.900 Where was the borders are?

00:00:50.940 So you need to ask yourself the question, you do, you need to ask yourself the question, which candidate will best protect our national security?

00:01:00.540 You know, I love to see this kind of boldness in a pastor.

00:01:04.980 So Pastor Josh is with us today, and he is going to tell us from a biblical perspective why Christians have a spiritual responsibility to vote and how we should think about whom to vote for.

00:01:16.000 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:01:18.100 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:19.420 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:01:20.440 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:01:21.600 Code Allie. 1.00

00:01:22.240 Pastor Josh, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:35.180 First, I just want to back up and hear about how you became a pastor.

00:01:40.320 Yeah.

00:01:40.660 Well, first of all, thanks for having me on.

00:01:42.180 This is a blast.

00:01:43.400 My family watches your show.

00:01:45.360 Well, thank you.

00:01:46.000 And our 13-year-old daughter has been watching in preparation to see Daddy on this thing.

00:01:50.140 That is so sweet.

00:01:50.640 13-year-old related gal.

00:01:52.100 She's going to be so far ahead.

00:01:53.800 Yes.

00:01:54.220 Miss Eliana is going to feel very relatable.

00:01:55.900 That's so sweet.

00:01:56.680 Yeah.

00:01:57.200 So I'm a third-generation pastor.

00:01:59.960 The Lord has been very kind to me through two generations.

00:02:02.700 Yeah.

00:02:02.780 So my Papa Jerry was a pastor in rural Baptist churches in Kentucky, all over the place.

00:02:09.520 My dad, Rick Allerton, good man.

00:02:12.100 He's a good man.

00:02:12.780 And retiring this month from 52 years of faithful gospel ministry.

00:02:17.080 Praise God.

00:02:17.460 That's right.

00:02:17.940 Praise God.

00:02:18.560 And so, you know, honestly, I grew up like kind of a church rat, like, and I loved it.

00:02:22.440 Like, I had a great experience.

00:02:23.760 Loved the church all growing up.

00:02:25.700 And then, man, God called me to ministry early high school.

00:02:29.780 And then, you know, pretty normal path from there, you know.

00:02:34.400 What did that look like in high school?

00:02:35.640 How did you realize that?

00:02:38.000 Man.

00:02:39.000 So Charles Spurgeon talks about three aspects of calling, internal calling, external calling,

00:02:43.080 and wide door of effective service.

00:02:44.540 Those were like the exact three for me.

00:02:46.640 So like, just really early, I was watching my dad.

00:02:49.740 You know, I'm not a super emotional guy.

00:02:52.280 I get emotional talking about my dad.

00:02:53.700 Yeah.

00:02:54.520 He's a good man and a good pastor.

00:02:56.840 And honestly, I just watched my dad, like, I kept hearing all these stories about God

00:03:01.360 changing people's lives and all this stuff.

00:03:03.640 So, you know, very early on, I was just like, I would love to do that.

00:03:07.800 I would love to do that someday.

00:03:09.980 And then in high school, like, I just, you know, I got thrust into the FCA leadership

00:03:15.080 thing, you know, the normal stuff.

00:03:17.200 And other people just started going, you know, hey, Josh, would you do this?

00:03:20.860 Would you teach this?

00:03:21.640 Would you, you know, so external calling.

00:03:24.400 And then God just started to open up doors, you know, to this day, cut me open.

00:03:28.620 I'm a youth camp pastor.

00:03:30.040 I just, you know, so it kind of just progressed from there.

00:03:34.260 And were you raised Baptist?

00:03:35.660 Yeah, I grew up in, I think what somebody would probably call, like, kind of a sinner,

00:03:42.360 Baptist, seeker sensitive, yeah, classic Baptist church. 1.00

00:03:47.060 Yeah.

00:03:47.640 And when did you start leaving Lake Point?

00:03:50.100 Man, it's coming up on six years.

00:03:51.960 Wow.

00:03:52.680 Okay.

00:03:53.060 And how were you led into that position?

00:03:55.960 So to condense, like, 16 years really short.

00:04:00.780 Yeah.

00:04:02.040 My dad planted a church when I was in college.

00:04:05.820 And so I was, like, on the couch watching.

00:04:08.000 And this was, like, before church planting was cool.

00:04:11.380 So I'm watching him.

00:04:12.400 He parachuted into a city, rubbed two sticks together, you know, started church.

00:04:17.180 And all right.

00:04:18.380 So long story short, while he's doing that, I'm finishing up college.

00:04:21.900 I go to be a youth pastor.

00:04:23.180 I went to Southern Seminary up in Louisville.

00:04:25.240 I'm a youth pastor at First Baptist Church, Mount Washington, Kentucky.

00:04:28.980 Amazing experience.

00:04:30.580 Like, I loved it.

00:04:31.580 Yeah.

00:04:31.720 And then dad had to step away from his church plant.

00:04:35.920 He was traveling, like, 200 days a year with LifeWay.

00:04:37.980 He worked at LifeWay.

00:04:38.640 And long story short, God called me to do that.

00:04:43.300 I'm there for 10 years, and the Lord just did a really sweet work, a really sweet work.

00:04:50.000 And Pastor Steve Stroop, founding pastor of Lake Point Church, I was in this little cohort

00:04:55.540 with him where they would take younger pastors of growing churches and stick them, you know,

00:05:00.240 with, you know, somebody like that.

00:05:02.100 And he invested in me, and it was just, we formed a bond.

00:05:06.860 And then it developed into a coaching thing, which developed into him asking me to succeed him.

00:05:13.760 And then the Lord, like, axe-level supernatural things called us to Lake Point six years in.

00:05:21.620 Yeah.

00:05:21.940 And how big is Lake Point?

00:05:23.720 You know, it'll range now between 19 and 24,000.

00:05:29.700 Wow.

00:05:30.540 Wow.

00:05:31.020 How many campuses?

00:05:31.760 It's a lot of people.

00:05:32.060 It's so many people.

00:05:33.540 So many people.

00:05:34.340 And they're the best.

00:05:35.720 Yeah.

00:05:36.160 They're seriously, they're the best people in the world.

00:05:38.440 Yeah.

00:05:39.060 Seven campuses now.

00:05:40.600 Okay.

00:05:41.440 And how did you meet your wife?

00:05:43.420 Blind date.

00:05:44.360 Really?

00:05:44.800 Yes, we did.

00:05:45.560 Blind date.

00:05:46.740 So the youth pastor, my youth pastor, Jeff Carlisle, great man.

00:05:52.120 He, as soon as I got saved, like, he personally discipled me.

00:05:55.340 So, like, I'm very early on, just personal discipleship.

00:05:59.460 My wife got saved.

00:06:00.980 She was, you know, a sorority thing in college.

00:06:03.440 She got saved in college.

00:06:04.640 Pretty radical conversion.

00:06:06.480 As soon as she got saved, Jeff's wife, she went to college in the city where I went to high school.

00:06:13.160 So Jeff's wife started discipling her. 0.79

00:06:15.080 Shout out, Mary Beth. 1.00

00:06:17.100 And so Jeff discipled me in high school.

00:06:19.940 Mary Beth discipled Jana in college.

00:06:22.020 Jana is single her senior year.

00:06:23.720 And they're like, why are you single?

00:06:25.620 Yeah.

00:06:25.800 You know?

00:06:26.680 And they literally, Allie, they sat down with, you remember the old church directories with the pictures?

00:06:33.080 Oh, yeah.

00:06:33.780 Oh, yeah.

00:06:33.940 So they literally sat down and they're going through and like, what about him?

00:06:36.560 What about him?

00:06:36.980 What about him?

00:06:37.560 Oh, my goodness.

00:06:37.840 And then, you know, and then they got to me and, you know.

00:06:40.600 She was like, oh, okay.

00:06:42.200 You know, it was more like Jeff and Mary Beth were like, it should be this guy.

00:06:46.600 Yeah.

00:06:47.140 And so we started emailing and blind date.

00:06:50.100 Email.

00:06:50.600 I love it.

00:06:51.260 That's considered old school now.

00:06:52.600 Dude, our favorite movie is You've Got Mail.

00:06:54.980 That's our, that's our couple's movie.

00:06:56.660 That's our couple's movie.

00:06:57.780 And how long have y'all been married?

00:07:00.080 Nineteen.

00:07:00.940 Nineteen years.

00:07:02.060 My goodness.

00:07:02.680 And y'all have three sweet, precious, beautiful kids.

00:07:05.720 Thank you.

00:07:06.340 Two girls and a boy, right? 0.71

00:07:07.360 Two girls and a boy.

00:07:08.020 That's right.

00:07:08.340 So fun.

00:07:09.000 Eliana Felicity Hudson.

00:07:10.460 Yes.

00:07:10.960 Hudson, my five-year-old prayed for you this morning.

00:07:13.520 Well, tell Hudson thank you.

00:07:14.940 I will tell him that.

00:07:15.580 I'll tell Hudson thank you.

00:07:16.240 Thank you, Hudson.

00:07:17.180 I'll tell him.

00:07:17.500 I really, really do value that so much.

00:07:19.240 All right, you have probably gone viral a few times, but most recently, this was about

00:07:26.060 a sermon that started circulating online about the election that's coming up, and you

00:07:32.880 laid it out.

00:07:33.420 We covered it on this show, and you said, look, this is what both sides stand for.

00:07:37.760 These are the issues at stake.

00:07:39.080 Here's what the Bible has to say about these things.

00:07:42.680 Tell me from your perspective what the response has been.

00:07:45.440 Yeah, so, you know, overwhelmingly positive.

00:07:50.560 Overwhelmingly positive.

00:07:52.240 I think I've heard you say before on the show that clarity is kindness, and I increasingly

00:07:58.000 have a conviction.

00:07:59.120 The Apostle Paul said that he commended himself to the conscience of his people by setting forth

00:08:04.660 the truth plainly.

00:08:05.780 I increasingly have, you know, a conviction that I don't, honestly, if it is connected

00:08:13.980 to the Word of God, and it's beneficial for discipleship, and I think it, I don't want

00:08:18.460 to be a pastor that has all these things that I think, but that I won't say.

00:08:23.720 And so, honestly, you know, I just, that was my, that was my conviction.

00:08:28.060 Overwhelmingly positive.

00:08:29.820 Anytime you kind of, you go over the middle, you're going to get hit by a linebacker, and

00:08:34.340 you know, that happens too.

00:08:35.540 So, but I'd say 95-5, 90-10 positive.

00:08:40.260 Yeah.

00:08:40.680 For those who have not seen the whole sermon, first of all, you should.

00:08:43.740 We'll link it in the description.

00:08:45.120 I watched the whole thing.

00:08:46.520 So good.

00:08:47.300 I mean, I really have been thinking about some of the things that you said since then, and

00:08:51.240 I talk about this stuff a lot, but I love how plainly you said the truth.

00:08:57.000 It's really challenged me and encouraged me a lot in how I explain this to Christians.

00:09:00.760 But for those who have it, can you summarize, first, I'll go one by one, first summarize

00:09:08.160 why Christians should vote at all? 1.00

00:09:10.600 Yeah.

00:09:11.520 So of everything I said, this was the most controversial.

00:09:15.420 I do, I'll gently venture out on a limb.

00:09:19.420 I think Christians have a spiritual responsibility to vote.

00:09:22.720 And I know that can be tough for some people, but let me do, let me back up and do a little

00:09:28.000 theology really quick.

00:09:30.040 So here's what I would say.

00:09:31.580 This is Abraham Kuyper, sphere, sovereignties, for theological terms.

00:09:37.500 What the scriptures teach is that God has ordered the world in terms of three, God has established

00:09:42.560 three institutions, the family, the church, and the state.

00:09:45.500 In the same way, and we can talk, there's tentacles to this conversation, in the same

00:09:53.900 way that it would be morally wrong for a husband to refuse to lead his family, and it would 0.86

00:09:59.840 be morally wrong for a pastor to refuse to lead his church, it would be morally wrong

00:10:05.880 for the leaders of a nation to refuse to lead the nation.

00:10:08.600 Now, a lot of people hear that and they're like, well, of course, Josh, presidents should

00:10:11.740 lead and senators and congressmen, but this is what's really important.

00:10:16.620 We live in a constitutional republic.

00:10:18.740 We do not live in a democracy.

00:10:20.040 We live in a constitutional republic.

00:10:22.080 In a constitutional republic, I'll ask you a question.

00:10:24.760 In a constitutional republic, the elected officials are representatives of the people.

00:10:30.900 The people, that's right.

00:10:32.300 So in a constitutional republic, the voters are at the top of the org chart.

00:10:37.440 So I think that's something that I think a lot of well-meaning, but I'll gently say maybe

00:10:44.060 a little naive, a lot of well-meaning, but maybe naive Christians forget that, hey, Romans 0.99

00:10:50.860 13 says that God has established the governments and governing leaders in our constitutional republic.

00:10:58.740 If you are a voting Christian, God has placed you at this time, in this place, at the top

00:11:06.760 of the constitutional republic org chart in which you find yourself.

00:11:10.440 And so I would gently say, in the same way that if a man won't lead his family, we messed

00:11:15.300 up.

00:11:15.780 If a pastor won't lead his church, we messed up.

00:11:18.580 If the Christian voters of a nation refuse to lead that nation and abdicate their spiritual 0.98

00:11:23.260 responsibility to lead, I think we're messing up.

00:11:25.960 And do you mind if I make one more point here?

00:11:27.560 Please.

00:11:27.800 So you're going to see a pattern in the scriptures.

00:11:30.200 And this is really interesting to me in study.

00:11:33.920 The pattern in the scriptures is that, let me get my language right.

00:11:38.080 It's been a few weeks since I preached this sermon.

00:11:40.580 That whatever, I'll do this, whatever God creates, Satan tries to co-opt.

00:11:46.300 Let's do that.

00:11:47.800 So you'll see this.

00:11:49.440 You see with the exact same spheres, family, church, state.

00:11:53.860 So in Genesis 2 and 3, Adam refuses to lead his family.

00:11:59.360 So I'll just say this to any husbands listening.

00:12:01.760 The first thing that happens, Adam refuses to lead, so Satan does.

00:12:05.220 So hey, husbands, if you won't lead your family, Satan will be happy too.

00:12:09.460 Okay, well then fast forward all the way to the end of the Bible.

00:12:13.180 In Revelation 2 and 3, you got the seven letters to the church.

00:12:16.280 So what you have there is, remember, what you had was you had some passive pastors.

00:12:20.620 Like it literally addresses this.

00:12:22.640 You had some passive pastors who, instead of leading their churches to repent of sin,

00:12:27.220 they led their churches to tolerate sin.

00:12:28.860 So they were in their passivity, and Romans 2 and 3 literally says that those churches

00:12:33.800 became, quote, a synagogue of Satan.

00:12:36.320 So hey, pastors, if you won't lead your church, Satan will be happy too.

00:12:40.560 In the same way, if spirit-filled, godly people will not lead their nation by voting,

00:12:49.620 godless people will.

00:12:52.180 So I just want to mic drop that and let that settle on our spirits.

00:12:55.640 If you, if godly people refuse to exercise their spiritual responsibility for leadership

00:13:02.120 via voting, the only people left influencing the nation are spirit-less, godless people.

00:13:10.080 So if you won't lead your nation, Satan will be happy too.

00:13:17.500 Okay, y'all, I am so excited to tell you about Operation Christmas Child.

00:13:22.200 If you grew up in the church, especially like a good old Baptist church like I did,

00:13:27.680 then you probably remember these iconic boxes.

00:13:31.180 You choose an age group and boy or girl, and then you fill this with non-perishable items,

00:13:39.320 with toys and clothing and art supplies for a child in need.

00:13:45.540 And I have a friend who is from Zimbabwe, and she actually saw firsthand kids in Africa

00:13:52.520 who had never gotten a present before open these, and the joy that it brought these kids

00:14:00.160 just left an indelible mark on her.

00:14:02.680 And every time I see a video of kids opening these boxes, it just warms my heart so much.

00:14:08.220 This is a great way to show the tangible love of Christ through our generosity.

00:14:11.720 And it's also a really sweet thing to do with your kids as you are teaching them

00:14:15.700 about love, about generosity, about how to help those who don't have as much as we do.

00:14:21.200 National Collection Week for your shoebox for Operation Christmas Child

00:14:26.960 is November 18th through the 25th.

00:14:30.400 The shoeboxes will be collected across the country at nearly 4,500 drop-off locations.

00:14:36.100 All you have to do is go to SamaritansPurse.org slash OCC to learn how to pack a shoebox,

00:14:42.900 or you can build one online.

00:14:44.220 It'll also show you where to drop it off.

00:14:46.540 Go to SamaritansPurse.org slash OCC.

00:14:54.020 But Josh, our kingdom is not of this world.

00:14:57.000 We're citizens of heaven.

00:15:00.000 Jesus is coming back.

00:15:01.420 Oh, by the way, if Christians are trying to influence the public sphere, 0.96

00:15:05.660 then we're Christian nationalists.

00:15:07.340 Oh, my gosh.

00:15:07.700 What say you?

00:15:08.460 Let's talk.

00:15:09.140 Okay, because I think, okay, so let me just say, if you're a person who you feel the things

00:15:13.400 that Allie just said, first of all, let me just say, I get it.

00:15:16.620 Like, honestly, if you got in a time machine and you had this conversation with me,

00:15:20.540 I'm going to say eight years ago, I literally would have said what you just said.

00:15:24.900 But then we have these Bible verses, these pesky Bible verses.

00:15:28.420 Okay, so for instance, a couple things.

00:15:31.340 You know, you said, hey, Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.

00:15:34.960 But he also said, he also prayed, your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

00:15:41.200 Like, for some reason, I feel like we sort of selectively apply the verses.

00:15:45.580 I have thoughts about why that may or may not happen.

00:15:48.480 Yeah.

00:15:48.720 I feel like sometimes we'll selectively edit which verses will apply

00:15:51.880 so that the ratchet only goes in one direction.

00:15:54.820 Here's another one that a lot of people objected to the sermon.

00:15:59.960 Hey, Josh.

00:16:01.820 Well, actually, I'd say two things.

00:16:03.860 Hey, Josh, Jesus.

00:16:05.700 Well, I'll do this one.

00:16:06.740 Jesus said, give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what's God's.

00:16:11.180 And a lot of people use that verse to mean, hey, just do your spiritual thing over here

00:16:15.520 with the church and let, you know, let Caesar do his thing with the government.

00:16:19.340 That is not at all what that verse is talking about.

00:16:22.480 Can you explain that?

00:16:23.140 Yeah.

00:16:23.640 So you remember it, what Jesus does, he takes the coin and he goes, hey, this is really

00:16:27.760 important.

00:16:28.660 I love this passage so much, dude.

00:16:30.620 This is such a great passage.

00:16:32.620 Whose image and likeness is on the coin?

00:16:36.640 I'm like, well, Caesar's.

00:16:38.200 You know, and Jesus goes, well, then give to Caesar what's Caesar's and God what's God's.

00:16:41.500 But Jesus is drawing on our theology from Genesis.

00:16:47.620 And Jesus, this is so, it's the genius of Jesus.

00:16:51.680 Jesus is implicitly asking everyone the question, so whose image and likeness is on you?

00:16:58.020 And he's going, okay, well, then you need to give yourself to, because you were created

00:17:03.200 in the image of God.

00:17:03.960 You need to give yourself to God.

00:17:04.860 But here's the point.

00:17:05.720 And this is what a lot of Christians miss.

00:17:08.320 Caesar was created in the image of God.

00:17:10.900 So Caesar belongs to God.

00:17:12.860 So when people go, hey, give to Caesar what's Caesar's and give to God what's God's, and

00:17:17.520 they take that to me and keep the spiritual over here and the civic over here, eh, wrong.

00:17:22.820 Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

00:17:24.820 Because every civic leader, Caesar, is created in God's image, and therefore, they owe their

00:17:31.480 allegiance and bent knee to King Jesus.

00:17:34.160 Yeah.

00:17:34.860 And in Romans 13, as you already referenced, the government was instituted by God.

00:17:39.560 That's right.

00:17:39.940 To punish evil and to reward good.

00:17:42.140 This is really important.

00:17:42.940 What does that mean?

00:17:44.020 Yeah.

00:17:44.340 Well, I think if somebody says that, you know, hey, so that begs a question.

00:17:47.520 The question is, who gets to define what's good and evil?

00:17:51.100 So this is the immediate question.

00:17:53.020 Yeah.

00:17:53.320 Okay.

00:17:53.420 This is the immediate question.

00:17:54.460 In any government, you have to ask the question, okay, yes, government punishes evil, rewards

00:18:00.160 good.

00:18:00.780 Well, who gets to define it?

00:18:02.420 Well, we're obviously reading the Bible.

00:18:05.060 And we're obviously reading in Romans 13 that God established the civic authorities.

00:18:09.820 So God gets to define what's good and evil.

00:18:13.200 Therefore, the government is on the hook for rewarding good in God's eyes, punishing evil

00:18:21.700 in God's eyes.

00:18:23.180 And, you know, I'll go.

00:18:24.060 I didn't say this in the sermon.

00:18:25.680 What we have right now.

00:18:27.320 So I think the government, if you zoom all the way out, the government has three big rock

00:18:31.400 responsibilities.

00:18:32.180 Reward evil, punish good.

00:18:35.360 And then I think you could say protect borders from foreign invasion.

00:18:37.760 I think you could do that.

00:18:39.440 We literally have a government doing the reverse image of those three things right now.

00:18:43.980 We have a government that is rewarding evil, that is at times punishing good, and that is

00:18:48.740 facilitating, you know, invasion might be an aggressive word, but it might not be.

00:18:54.120 It might be infiltration.

00:18:55.340 Whatever you want to call it.

00:18:56.480 Yep.

00:18:57.440 So there it is on Romans 13.

00:18:59.220 Do you want to do the Christian nationalism thing?

00:19:01.340 Yeah, but I just want to pause on something that you said, because I reference Romans 13

00:19:05.520 a lot to explain to people that part of our responsibility is to engage civically because

00:19:11.200 governments were God's idea.

00:19:12.980 Laws were God's idea. 1.00

00:19:14.300 And as you've already mentioned, we have this right, have this privilege living here in

00:19:17.680 the United States to choose our public servants.

00:19:21.040 That's who they're supposed to be, to represent our own interests.

00:19:23.780 But I don't know if I've ever gone so far as to say what you just said, which is so

00:19:27.600 brilliant.

00:19:28.460 Who gets to define good and evil?

00:19:30.120 The truth is, if it's not Christians, as you mentioned earlier, it's going to be someone 0.85

00:19:34.120 else.

00:19:34.860 Some people have this idea that you can compartmentalize your faith from your politics, and somehow

00:19:40.380 we come up with this like neutral secular ideology, which is not neutral at all.

00:19:45.160 But every law was formed by a worldview, a view of morality.

00:19:51.340 Every single law is a legislation of morality, even a speeding law.

00:19:55.440 It is wrong to go past the speed limit for particular reasons.

00:20:00.520 And so who gets to define good and evil?

00:20:03.320 Don't we want it to be the followers of the God who created good and who defines what is

00:20:09.720 right and wrong?

00:20:10.220 So that's just a brilliant point.

00:20:11.560 But go ahead.

00:20:12.020 That's right.

00:20:12.380 Well, and on that, you know, what you get into is the two objections to what you just

00:20:18.360 said are separation of church and state, and then you can't legislate morality.

00:20:23.320 I don't know if you want to do that or you want to do the Christian nationalism thing.

00:20:26.340 Let's go with that first, and then we can go into the Christian nationalism thing.

00:20:29.840 Go ahead.

00:20:30.280 What do you say when people are like, yeah, the separation of church and state, so Christians 0.99

00:20:34.160 should shut up. 0.93

00:20:35.020 Yeah. 0.98

00:20:35.200 So first of all, let's go here.

00:20:40.960 Let's go back to the original intent of the phrase separation of church and state.

00:20:44.720 So I'm a pastor.

00:20:46.520 I am not a U.S. historian or a civics expert.

00:20:49.920 But I do know this, that the phrase separation of church and state is not in our governing

00:20:54.020 documents anywhere.

00:20:55.680 Separation of church and state originally appeared in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury

00:21:00.740 Baptists in the 1700s, and the purpose of the phrase was to protect the church from interference

00:21:11.760 from the state.

00:21:12.820 This is really important.

00:21:13.740 So if you go back to the 1700s, you know, you're in the context of Revolutionary War,

00:21:18.720 all the things you had in England, which we obviously revolted, revolution, revolted from.

00:21:26.000 What you had was a state-sponsored church.

00:21:29.940 So the state was enveloping the church.

00:21:32.860 So you got these Danbury Baptists that are like, oh, we're scared that's going to happen 1.00

00:21:36.060 to us.

00:21:36.500 And Thomas Jefferson writes, and he goes, nope, that's not going to happen because we believe

00:21:40.400 in a separation of church and state.

00:21:42.480 Now, this is really important.

00:21:44.620 So that doesn't mean this is, here's the language that's important.

00:21:47.640 Separation of church and state does not mean a separation of morality and state.

00:21:52.320 As you have just stated, that is literally impossible.

00:21:56.720 We may get to this at some point later, but morality is all that gets legislated.

00:22:03.760 Every law that has ever existed legislates a morality.

00:22:07.980 So separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of morality and state.

00:22:12.880 And separation of church and state doesn't mean a separation of politics and religion.

00:22:17.620 That's actually impossible and clearly not what the founders desired.

00:22:22.120 Separation of church and state, it means a separation of governments.

00:22:26.000 So this is what Thomas Jefferson was speaking into.

00:22:28.380 I know you know this, but for our readers, for our listeners, this is what he was speaking

00:22:32.840 into is the English-British situation where the governing entities of the state and the

00:22:41.540 church were one.

00:22:42.600 So what it's saying is the same guy that's the president of the government shouldn't also

00:22:49.620 be the pope of the church.

00:22:52.040 That's what separation of church and state means.

00:22:54.200 And again, its intent was to keep the government from interfering with the church, you know,

00:22:59.820 like the government telling churches they have to shut down for two years.

00:23:04.000 Right.

00:23:04.140 Things like that.

00:23:05.320 Yeah.

00:23:05.660 Which is interesting because I did not hear those who typically cry out separation of church

00:23:10.440 and state.

00:23:10.980 They weren't concerned at all when the state tried to infiltrate the church during COVID,

00:23:16.060 as you just mentioned.

00:23:17.560 But just to add on to that, separation of church and state is also not separation of God

00:23:23.980 and law.

00:23:24.660 And that is something that we see in our founding documents.

00:23:26.980 Obviously, the Declaration of Independence described our rights as inalienable because they come

00:23:32.560 from a creator.

00:23:34.060 And so the founders actually could not even foresee, couldn't construct a country without

00:23:39.480 the idea of a transcendent power giving us our rights.

00:23:44.360 That's kind of the entire basis of self-governance.

00:23:47.000 Yes.

00:23:47.740 Yeah.

00:23:47.980 I mean, it's just, you know, it's just plain logic.

00:23:50.620 Yeah.

00:23:51.080 How are you going to have a morality, moral law without a moral lawgiver?

00:23:55.320 Exactly.

00:23:55.760 Our founders very clearly understood that, you know, endowed by our creator.

00:24:00.180 And then I'm not going to get all the facts right here, but there is a laundry list of

00:24:07.000 things like, you know, 11 out of the original 13 colonies had in their charters, you know,

00:24:14.120 affiliations with denominations and things like this.

00:24:17.480 Oh, yeah.

00:24:17.940 So that's true.

00:24:18.960 And actually, there were qualifications for holding office and the original 13 colonies were

00:24:25.420 that you had to be, even in some cases, like a very specific kind of Protestant.

00:24:30.540 And so this is in the foundation of our country for sure.

00:24:34.000 On the Christian nationalism piece, what I notice is that it's only conservative Christians

00:24:38.760 who are told that allowing our faith to inform our politics is theocracy.

00:24:44.800 But when Kamala Harris, when she gets up at a church and she says, you know, weeping lasts

00:24:50.560 for the night, but joy cometh in the morning, and the joy is herself, that apparently is

00:24:55.400 not Christian nationalism or Christo-fascism.

00:24:59.400 It's only if you and I say, hey, you know, Psalm 139 makes pretty clear that God even formed

00:25:05.080 and saw our unformed substance.

00:25:07.660 That to me means there's a value of life inside the womb.

00:25:09.800 We probably shouldn't legally kill those babies. 1.00

00:25:11.860 That all of a sudden is scary Christian nationalism. 0.92

00:25:14.200 So can you break that down for us?

00:25:16.580 Yeah.

00:25:17.020 You know, I've noticed that same phenomenon.

00:25:19.940 There's a little bit, and this is a bit of a side tangent.

00:25:23.160 I think there's a lot of pastors that are trying to figure out the moment.

00:25:26.960 You know, if you kind of go back, I'd say in the last 15, 20 years, for a variety of reasons,

00:25:35.580 some well-meaning and some maybe not as well-meaning, there's sometimes a bit of a tendency

00:25:40.280 to do, I call it coddle left, punch right, coddle left, punch right, right.

00:25:43.960 So, man, if it's a left-coded issue or statement, man, we're very thoughtful, we're very reasoning,

00:25:50.200 we're very affirming of, let's find what we can affirm.

00:25:53.060 If it's a right-coded issue, it's like prophetic declaration and tear that, you know, all the

00:25:58.220 things.

00:25:58.760 So you'll see this with some of the language, that when a Christian stands on the scriptures

00:26:04.620 to advocate for a right-coded issue, that's scary Christian nationalism. 0.81

00:26:10.540 When somebody stands on a Bible verse to advocate for a left-coded issue, that's prophetic witness

00:26:16.320 in the public square.

00:26:17.500 Oh, yeah, speak of truth to power.

00:26:18.680 That's right.

00:26:19.020 It's faithful presence is what that is, you know.

00:26:21.440 Yeah.

00:26:21.900 So I do notice that.

00:26:24.120 Yeah.

00:26:24.520 I just got to say, I think you got to try not to see that.

00:26:29.360 Yeah.

00:26:29.860 To not see that.

00:26:30.820 Yeah.

00:26:31.100 So when you get to the Christian nationalism thing, you know, I think that's what you see.

00:26:37.500 So my little thing that I say is, I say 99% of the time, 99% of the time when somebody

00:26:45.260 uses the phrase Christian nationalism, it is an intentionally unstable scare label whose

00:26:50.920 subtext is, I'm allowed to advocate for my values in the public square, but you're not

00:26:55.800 allowed to advocate for yours.

00:26:58.360 99% of the time.

00:26:59.680 So if you're a Christian and somebody lobs this at you, ooh, that's, you're pro-life,

00:27:05.620 you're, you know, whatever it is.

00:27:06.740 You believe in a biblical definition of marriage in how society is ordered.

00:27:12.900 Ooh, you're a Christian nationalist.

00:27:14.440 What you will always notice is the person who is saying that to you is extremely comfortable

00:27:19.980 advocating for their beliefs about those issues in the public square.

00:27:24.100 And if you trace their beliefs all the way down to the bottom, again, you can't have

00:27:29.120 a moral law without a moral law giver.

00:27:31.440 If you trace their beliefs all the way down to the bottom, they are making some religious

00:27:36.320 faith assumptions in how they arrived at their worldview as well.

00:27:40.440 So it just so happens that it's okay for them to advocate for their religious faith assumptions

00:27:46.360 in the public square. 0.63

00:27:47.000 But when you do it, you're a scary Christian nationalist. 0.87

00:27:49.980 Yeah.

00:27:50.760 And a lot of times it's not even the so-called progressive Christians, because I certainly

00:27:55.160 see that from them, that they will cherry pick Bible verses and they will say, this should

00:27:59.440 inform our policy.

00:28:00.400 Like the early church shared things with each other, so communism is great.

00:28:03.740 Or God told ancient Israel to love the foreigner.

00:28:07.360 And so open borders is great.

00:28:08.960 That's right.

00:28:09.320 That kind of cherry picking is fine.

00:28:11.200 But if we do even proper exegesis to say, well, these are the principles we see throughout

00:28:16.180 scripture.

00:28:16.760 This is what we see about God's character.

00:28:18.580 So this is where I land on immigration.

00:28:20.560 Yeah.

00:28:21.000 That, especially as you said, if it lands on a right-coded conclusion or in support of a

00:28:26.700 conservative policy, that's when things become very scary and nationalistic and fascist and

00:28:32.760 all of these crazy things.

00:28:34.160 So the other thing I would say about the Christian nationalism thing is I do think that there's,

00:28:40.080 and by the way, like almost nothing that I'm saying right now is original to me.

00:28:43.640 I just want to point that out.

00:28:44.980 I do think that when it comes to this, there's confusing, maybe intentional confusion in the

00:28:50.840 language.

00:28:52.200 I think when some people, like if you're a listener to Allie, you probably are a little

00:28:56.320 more discerning, but you may have had this thrown at you and not known what to do with

00:29:00.420 it.

00:29:01.200 Hey, isn't nationalism idolatry?

00:29:03.040 You know, that's, and what people do is they think, when they hear the word nationalism,

00:29:07.960 they think the person is referring to ordered affections.

00:29:12.940 Oh, if you're a nationalist, that means that you love your country more than God.

00:29:17.260 Yeah.

00:29:17.660 That's like not what literally anybody means.

00:29:20.320 Yeah.

00:29:20.820 When we're talking about nationalism, when people are talking about nationalism, they're

00:29:24.540 almost exclusively referring to the span of government.

00:29:28.560 That's what they're almost exclusively referring to.

00:29:30.620 So you have three options, you have tribalism, nationalism, or globalism.

00:29:34.260 You know, tribalism is, you know, that's a bunch of very small self-contained tribes

00:29:37.920 running around.

00:29:38.440 It's total chaos.

00:29:40.060 Nationalism is what we have right now in the world, in general, in the world, in general.

00:29:45.320 It's sovereign nations.

00:29:46.920 That's a, let me just go ahead and get this out here.

00:29:50.320 Nationalism was God's idea. 0.56

00:29:51.680 That's how God ordered the world.

00:29:52.940 He ordered the world into nations.

00:29:55.500 Global, so it's span of government.

00:29:56.840 Globalism is one world government concept.

00:29:59.540 So when people are saying nationalism, what they're not saying is, oh, we want you to

00:30:03.880 love your country more than Jesus.

00:30:05.480 Nobody is saying that.

00:30:06.400 Oh, by the way, that would be a sin.

00:30:08.900 It would, it is definitely a sin to love your nation more than you love Jesus.

00:30:13.120 I just happen to think that's like not true of almost anybody.

00:30:15.840 No.

00:30:16.120 You know, like Christians. 1.00

00:30:17.800 Yeah.

00:30:18.660 So people are talking about span of governments.

00:30:20.960 Yeah.

00:30:21.160 So once you get there, then you go, okay, nationalism was where we are.

00:30:23.980 Then you got to go, well, what kind of nationalism do you want?

00:30:26.360 Do you want secular nationalism?

00:30:28.160 Do you want Islamic nationalism?

00:30:30.080 What kind do you want?

00:30:30.960 And because we're Christians, you know, I honestly think this is pretty basic.

00:30:35.180 Like if I were to have a conversation with you, Allie, and we were talking about this,

00:30:38.320 the first thing I would just ask is if you're a Christian, do you believe that society would

00:30:43.280 be better if in general, our society followed Christian principles and ethics?

00:30:49.860 Yeah.

00:30:50.480 The answer to that is yes.

00:30:51.780 And if you say no, as a Christian, my question would be why?

00:30:57.600 Like, do you not believe God's ways are better?

00:31:00.100 And if God created the heavens and the earth, then he's the authority over all of it, the

00:31:04.020 definer of all things.

00:31:05.500 And by the way, he's not just the authority and creator.

00:31:07.400 God is love.

00:31:09.240 So everything God says and does, he says and does from love.

00:31:12.900 And so if I'm to love my neighbor, how can I love him in a way that God detests or disagrees

00:31:18.820 with?

00:31:19.240 Yeah.

00:31:19.480 His commands are not burdensome.

00:31:20.980 Yeah.

00:31:21.480 His commands are not burdensome.

00:31:22.780 That's what we're talking about.

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00:32:41.080 You know, I also notice this idea that, you know, we can leave our Christian faith behind 0.99

00:32:49.980 and then when we go into the public sphere, we don this, like, neutral secular ideology.

00:32:55.700 But this neutral secular ideology says that babies don't become people until they go through

00:33:02.320 the birth canal.

00:33:02.940 That's a superstitious, non-scientific, weird belief and believes that kids can be born in

00:33:09.480 the wrong body.

00:33:10.680 So people who believe that, they get to insert their definitions, their weird beliefs into

00:33:17.920 school curriculum, into public policy.

00:33:21.280 They define policy and recommendations from our, you know, the ivory towers, from the halls

00:33:27.820 of power, our bureaucracy is defined by progressive ideology, which is not neutral.

00:33:35.540 It is superstitious. 0.88

00:33:37.080 And so why does a progressive secularist who has their own dogmas and their own pseudo-religion,

00:33:46.440 why is their view seen as neutral?

00:33:49.440 But my view as a Christian who just believes, as you said, in a moral lawgiver, why is mine 0.55

00:33:55.880 the crazy one?

00:33:57.380 It's not.

00:33:57.820 Yes, and I say we all should bring the fullness of our worldview into the public sphere and

00:34:03.080 let the best idea win.

00:34:04.660 Yeah.

00:34:05.380 So, like, a great example of this.

00:34:08.020 So what you're talking about, Allie, especially where your listeners will get this thrown at

00:34:14.220 them or they'll feel it, is what you're talking about is loaded into the phrase, you can't

00:34:22.320 legislate morality.

00:34:23.460 Yeah.

00:34:23.660 That's the worldview behind the phrase, you can't legislate morality, is the myth of neutrality.

00:34:30.320 So that's what you're, that's what, if you're listening, that's what Allie's driving at.

00:34:33.760 It's a myth of neutrality.

00:34:35.060 That there's some way for us to sort of just order society to where nobody's beliefs are

00:34:42.120 infringed upon and, you know, that sort of thing.

00:34:45.280 And, you know, we can rip the mask off that really fast.

00:34:49.100 Because here's what, you can't legislate morality.

00:34:51.900 That's another one.

00:34:52.520 It always gets applied rightward.

00:34:56.060 I'll just, I'll just, that's another one where you see coddle left, punch right.

00:34:58.900 It only gets applied rightward in general.

00:35:02.980 So for instance, and as others have pointed this out, a great example of this is with abortion.

00:35:08.960 So somebody may say to a Christian that has a consistent pro-life ethic, which I do just

00:35:15.820 go ahead and get this out there.

00:35:16.880 I had this in the sermon.

00:35:17.600 It is a tragedy that we do not have a consistently pro-life candidate in front of us right now.

00:35:23.800 So I just want to acknowledge that.

00:35:25.060 That's a tragedy.

00:35:26.600 We may get into that later.

00:35:28.440 But you take the issue of abortion.

00:35:32.220 What a pro-choice person might say to you is, hey, when you advocate for pro-life legislation,

00:35:39.040 you're trying to force your morality on the mother.

00:35:42.380 And honestly, the answer to that question is, yes.

00:35:45.360 Yes, yes, that is what is trying to happen.

00:35:49.080 But the question is not whether morality is going to get legislated.

00:35:54.720 The question is whose morality is going to get legislated.

00:35:57.340 Because when somebody advocates for a pro-choice position, their morality gets very violently

00:36:03.920 forced on the baby.

00:36:05.580 Exactly.

00:36:05.980 So see, what everyone needs to understand is morality is the only thing that ever gets

00:36:13.440 legislated.

00:36:14.420 There is no neutral position with an example like the one we just pointed out.

00:36:22.260 And that plays itself out in a myriad of ways.

00:36:25.440 Yeah.

00:36:26.640 Okay.

00:36:27.660 But both candidates are so bad.

00:36:30.000 And I don't like the policies maybe of the left, but Trump, I just don't like some of

00:36:36.620 the things he said.

00:36:37.620 He scares me.

00:36:38.700 So maybe I just won't vote or I'll vote third party.

00:36:42.560 I just, I can't vote between the lesser of two evils.

00:36:45.160 What do you say?

00:36:45.680 Okay.

00:36:46.500 First of all, let me just say, if you feel that way, dude, honestly, I kind of get it.

00:36:51.220 Like I have compassion for that.

00:36:52.500 Like if I was drawn up by perfect candidate, you know, I'm not looking at one of them right

00:36:58.760 now.

00:36:59.780 But here's a few things that I would say to that person.

00:37:03.420 I honestly think what happens there is it's two misunderstandings stacked on top of each

00:37:09.260 other.

00:37:10.020 A misunderstanding about what a vote is and is not.

00:37:14.260 And this is really, really important.

00:37:17.200 So let me, and then the other thing is a taxonomy of biblical leaders.

00:37:22.500 So let me, let me do them in order.

00:37:25.040 Yeah.

00:37:25.400 So a few things I talk about this in the sermon, so I'll try to condense.

00:37:28.660 Maybe not everyone heard this and this is a really important point.

00:37:31.740 Okay.

00:37:32.240 So number one, you know, it's, they're little pithy statements.

00:37:35.220 I'm a preacher.

00:37:35.760 That's what I do.

00:37:36.420 No, it's good.

00:37:37.060 Um, you know, number one, a vote is not a Valentine.

00:37:40.080 And you know, that's like, uh, the great example, you know, you're in middle school and

00:37:44.800 you walk in and you're like, Oh, they're so cool and cute and funny.

00:37:49.000 Yeah.

00:37:49.500 And that's how you decide who you give your Valentine to.

00:37:51.560 Yeah.

00:37:51.740 Um, I hope it goes without saying that to everyone that's listening, that's not how

00:37:57.200 mature Christians should vote.

00:37:59.320 So honestly, a great example of this, um, is the 1960 presidential election.

00:38:05.000 You had JFK, Richard Nixon, first televised presidential debate ever before the debate.

00:38:12.340 Nixon was apparently crushing Kennedy.

00:38:13.940 They walk in and do the first ever presidential debate.

00:38:17.760 Nixon, a little older chooses not to do the makeup, all the things, uh, Kennedy younger,

00:38:24.520 apparently more attractive, does the makeup.

00:38:26.520 And I, I think I read something like 20 or 40 million people, even back then watch that debate.

00:38:34.740 Yeah.

00:38:35.400 Yeah.

00:38:36.000 And you know, the polls radically swung to JFK after the debate because people were like,

00:38:42.140 he's so dreamy.

00:38:44.200 Yeah.

00:38:44.480 You know, and that was it.

00:38:45.900 Um, but we don't do this.

00:38:47.300 So like this may be a little sensitive.

00:38:49.100 So what mature Christians should not do, God specifically says this in first Samuel is look 1.00

00:38:54.560 at a person's outward appearance.

00:38:56.500 It's like, we shouldn't vote based on like vibes.

00:38:59.580 Yeah.

00:39:00.200 Or I like his, you know, personality, or he's got the same skin color as me, or she'd be

00:39:04.560 the first woman president.

00:39:05.720 Yeah.

00:39:06.320 We shouldn't do that.

00:39:07.160 You know, a vote's not a Valentine.

00:39:08.540 Let me, let me shorten this up.

00:39:09.560 The other one that I think is really important is for people, uh, to understand that a, a

00:39:16.680 selection is not a sacrament.

00:39:19.660 So a sacrament is a religious ritual, like, um, communion, baptism, marriage, and a convictional

00:39:28.300 Christian knows my job is to not let any impurity into those things.

00:39:33.440 And honestly, I think, um, a lot of, um, very, uh, committed, convictional, wonderful

00:39:41.440 Christians are getting tripped up on this because they feel that their vote is like a sacrament

00:39:47.360 and they're like, I'm not supposed to mix any impurity with my vote.

00:39:52.560 Um, but that, that is to misunderstand what a vote is.

00:39:57.520 Yeah.

00:39:57.880 Okay.

00:39:58.540 Um, here's what a vote is.

00:39:59.940 Uh, a vote is your strategic choice to choose the best available path forward.

00:40:08.700 That's what your vote is.

00:40:10.380 Um, we have never had a sinless candidate.

00:40:13.000 Um, every election in the history of our nation has been a choice between two evils because

00:40:18.900 every election in the history of our nation has been a choice between two centers.

00:40:23.780 So a vote, it's not a sacrament.

00:40:25.540 It's a strategic decision about, uh, the best available path forward.

00:40:31.080 So if, let me put this to you in biblical terms, if you're a Christian that's listening.

00:40:35.900 So Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, you're the salt of the earth.

00:40:40.740 Uh, salt is a preservative whose purpose is to slow decay.

00:40:46.760 So, so this is really important.

00:40:48.280 Um, when a Christian's voting, we're not asking, um, uh, who, uh, is the perfect candidate?

00:40:57.020 Which candidate has no flaws?

00:40:58.640 We're not asking that.

00:40:59.720 We should be asking the question, uh, which candidate's policies is most likely to slow

00:41:07.840 societal decay.

00:41:10.240 Yeah.

00:41:10.580 That's all you're asking salt of the earth.

00:41:13.920 You're applying that.

00:41:14.780 So those are the two quick things I would say.

00:41:17.460 If somebody feels what you just said, I'd say, man, a little bit of a misunderstanding

00:41:21.860 about what a vote is.

00:41:24.640 Um, and it's not a full endorsement of necessarily every policy.

00:41:29.820 I'm, you know, I'm as pro-life as they come.

00:41:31.880 I believe in the natural biblical definition of marriage.

00:41:34.280 I think that our country would be better off if they were where we are on those things.

00:41:39.720 And Trump is not where I am on those things.

00:41:42.120 And some of the things that he said about reproductive technology and abortion, I'm totally 0.99

00:41:46.660 not on board with.

00:41:47.720 But I think some people say that and they leave it at that.

00:41:51.440 But the reality is, is that there's a lot of daylight between the two sides.

00:41:55.520 The Harris Biden administration is imprisoning pro-lifers while rewarding abortionists.

00:42:00.540 Talk about an inverse of Romans 13, whereas Donald Trump is likely to pardon those pro-lifers 0.87

00:42:07.760 and advocate for defunding the abortion lobby.

00:42:10.580 So just on that alone, there's a huge difference.

00:42:13.640 Yeah.

00:42:14.160 So like, I'll just, I'll just, you know, dude, I just think you have to acknowledge this.

00:42:21.000 Um, I just want to say this on record.

00:42:23.000 Uh, I, uh, I have not, um, I'm not tying my hope and allegiance to the GOP.

00:42:29.580 I have not accepted the GOP into my heart.

00:42:32.700 Um, but if we're speaking honestly, uh, right now you can literally just go to the RNC website

00:42:39.560 and read the policies.

00:42:41.240 Then one click later, go to the DNC website and read the policies.

00:42:45.360 Listen, I'm very sorry.

00:42:47.400 If this is difficult for somebody to acknowledge, we simp, this moment simply requires somebody

00:42:52.640 to acknowledge moral asymmetry.

00:42:54.380 I have not accepted the GOP into my heart.

00:42:56.940 In fact, here's, here's, here's my philosophy on this.

00:42:59.020 Dude, I'm a Bible guy.

00:43:00.940 So like, here's my lane.

00:43:02.200 This is my team.

00:43:03.020 I'm a Bible guy.

00:43:04.700 To whatever degree your party, I don't care who you are, to whatever degree your party

00:43:09.080 is for a team Jesus and team Jesus is, um, ethics policies and guidelines.

00:43:14.520 Awesome, man.

00:43:15.100 I'm gonna cheer you on.

00:43:15.740 I'm gonna help you.

00:43:17.300 Whenever you cross that, my job is to stand up and prophetically declare, get back in

00:43:23.060 your lane, get out, get out. 0.77

00:43:24.600 And listen, I know this is really tough, but right now, if you go to the RNC website, there

00:43:30.240 are, there are no policies on the RNC website, the current platform, where they are advocating,

00:43:36.440 you might correct me, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this because I did a skin before my

00:43:39.360 sermon.

00:43:39.540 They are not advocating for the advancement of any evil.

00:43:44.840 However, the D there is only one party that is advocating for demonic perversion.

00:43:50.520 That is a fact.

00:43:52.040 Yeah.

00:43:52.420 So listen, are, do we have, you know, uh, uh, do we have a perfect thing in front of us?

00:43:58.880 No, we don't.

00:43:59.660 But do we have a morally asymmetrical set of options in front of us?

00:44:03.780 Yes, we absolutely do.

00:44:04.860 Yeah.

00:44:05.500 I would say Republicans as a whole, no, but I would disagree with the subsidizing of

00:44:12.340 in vitro fertilization just because of the embryonic destruction there.

00:44:16.100 I would also disagree, um, with the GOP, many in the GOP about like the legalization of weed

00:44:22.840 just because I don't think our society needs that.

00:44:25.300 Is it?

00:44:25.800 But it's probably not.

00:44:26.560 Is that on the RNC platform?

00:44:27.660 No, that's what I was about to say is that Trump himself has said those things.

00:44:31.620 But thankfully we live in a world with checks and balances to where it's Congress who writes

00:44:38.220 the laws and Trump who signed the laws.

00:44:41.340 And so I'm more concerned about that, but we shouldn't look at on either side of any,

00:44:46.400 what any one politician says.

00:44:48.500 That's why what you said is so important.

00:44:50.520 Don't just look at what the politicians say.

00:44:53.000 Look at the policies that they represent and also look at what they have done.

00:44:57.340 Kamala Harris isn't hiding the fact that she was the furthest left Senate while she's trying 1.00

00:45:02.240 to hide the fact that she was the furthest left Senator when she was in the Senate, even 0.94

00:45:05.500 alongside Bernie Sanders.

00:45:07.060 So people can look at the policies.

00:45:09.000 That's what they should look at before putting all of the weight on these politicians' words.

00:45:15.900 Politicians say a lot of things.

00:45:17.720 Yeah, they do.

00:45:18.280 All right, y'all.

00:45:23.300 I am so excited about election coverage at Blaze TV.

00:45:27.740 Join me.

00:45:28.820 Join my Blaze TV colleagues.

00:45:30.720 You can go to blazeelection.com slash Allie.

00:45:33.500 You get a really big discount on your Blaze subscription when you do $40 off.

00:45:39.100 That's amazing.

00:45:40.120 And you can join us that night to get all of my commentary on everything that's going on

00:45:46.120 on election night.

00:45:47.200 Go to blazeelection.com slash Allie. 1.00

00:45:54.160 The other thing I would say is I do think a lot of Christians, they think in a binary

00:46:00.760 when it comes to types of leaders, and it causes them to put any flawed leader, lump all

00:46:07.820 flawed leaders into one category and flatten it.

00:46:11.520 So here's my little example.

00:46:13.340 So in the Old Testament, you have a taxonomy of three types of leaders.

00:46:18.660 You have Josiah leaders.

00:46:20.560 Josiah, amazing leader.

00:46:22.100 Young, righteous, essentially is converted, regenerated, discovers the Old Testament law

00:46:29.120 back in a church closet somewhere, reads it to the entire nation, leads the nation in

00:46:35.760 mass revival.

00:46:36.660 And dude, I'll just, you know, by heart, like I love my country and I love Jesus a lot more

00:46:42.840 than my country.

00:46:43.720 Like, I'm praying we see that in our day.

00:46:46.140 Yeah.

00:46:46.580 Like, oh my gosh.

00:46:47.800 100%.

00:46:48.320 Like, I would just be overwhelmed to see a national revival like that in our day.

00:46:52.680 Yes.

00:46:53.320 That'd be amazing.

00:46:54.100 Yes.

00:46:54.420 So a Josiah leader is a righteous leader who celebrates and promotes righteousness.

00:47:00.600 Then you have a second category of leaders like Ahab and Jezebel leaders. 0.99

00:47:04.780 I'm just picking them because the Old Testament says those are the most wicked leaders Israel 1.00

00:47:08.360 ever had.

00:47:09.400 Those are leaders who celebrate and promote wickedness.

00:47:14.100 That's what Ahab and Jezebel do. 0.98

00:47:15.240 You had passive evil king, promiscuous controlling queen, celebrated godlessness and perversion. 0.85

00:47:25.420 So that's the second category. 0.95

00:47:27.820 A lot of Christians think those are the only two types of leaders you got.

00:47:31.060 If they think that, then what ends up happening to them is they look at any leader with flaws

00:47:36.660 and they just lump them into category two and they morally flatten the playing field.

00:47:41.900 But in the Old Testament, there's actually a third type of leader.

00:47:45.060 Like, I call it a Jehu leader. 1.00

00:47:49.000 Jehu was the king that came right after Ahab and Jezebel. 1.00

00:47:53.260 Deeply flawed dude.

00:47:55.140 Like, deeply flawed. 0.99

00:47:56.180 He was a violent man. 0.78

00:47:57.980 Very aggressive. 0.97

00:48:00.080 Slaughters prophets of Baal. 0.97

00:48:02.440 Throws Jezebel out of a window. 1.00

00:48:05.240 Executes judgment on the priests. 0.98

00:48:07.100 The priest for the false gods.

00:48:10.420 But he was a really flawed guy.

00:48:12.120 Like, this was in my quiet time, like, two weeks ago.

00:48:16.760 He permitted golden calf worship to continue in Israel, didn't tear down the high places,

00:48:23.880 all the things.

00:48:24.620 Yeah.

00:48:24.840 But he was used for some good purposes.

00:48:29.040 So I think, why is Christians have to have a third category of leader in their head?

00:48:33.300 And they, man, sometimes what you have is you've got a really flawed leader that God still uses for some good purposes.

00:48:40.480 Or if you want to, you could say, or that is still used for good purposes.

00:48:44.340 And I think Christians need to have a moral imagination that is as—I hate the word nuance. 1.00

00:48:53.120 I'm totally out on the word nuance.

00:48:54.120 That is as variegated as the Old Testament.

00:48:59.900 That's really good.

00:49:01.340 What is some final encouragement that you would give to Christians in this time?

00:49:07.280 Let's say it's for the Christians who are dedicated to listening to this show.

00:49:11.020 So they've all already voted, or they are definitely voting.

00:49:14.020 The Christians who are engaged, but they're like, look, I am nervous. 1.00

00:49:17.720 I am so nervous about what's going to happen in the next few months, in the next few years.

00:49:22.400 I know Jesus is coming back, but I just need some encouragement to cling to.

00:49:28.280 What would you say?

00:49:29.220 Let me say two things.

00:49:30.640 So in my time of the word this morning, my heart was overwhelmed with this.

00:49:35.660 So this is hot.

00:49:36.560 This is coming out fresh.

00:49:39.380 Every single time there is a national revival in the scriptures, it's always in a period of degradation and decline.

00:49:48.520 And I do just want to encourage Christians.

00:49:50.440 We literally have a command, do not trust in princes.

00:49:54.800 Hey, princes matter.

00:49:56.220 Let me just, some Christians say, do not trust in princes.

00:49:58.300 So we just shouldn't care. 1.00

00:49:59.140 That's really foolish.

00:50:01.260 But at the end of the day, if enough people are not converted, filled with the spirit of God, Bible in their hands, wisdom in their heads, 0.93

00:50:09.820 then even if the right policies and leaders get put forward, there's not enough people to vote for them.

00:50:15.500 So like our great hope is, and I'm not saying if, I'm saying when.

00:50:21.780 Our great hope is when the next awakening, reformation and revival happens and it sweeps our nation.

00:50:27.740 The Lord has done it before and he's going to do it again.

00:50:30.920 And it usually happens in a period of decline and decay.

00:50:34.680 Do I have time for one more encouragement?

00:50:37.080 Please.

00:50:37.480 Okay.

00:50:37.820 Yes.

00:50:38.320 The other one, I'm always like, as a pastor, I'm always trying to like find what Bible story is a good archetype for our cultural moment.

00:50:49.660 And I honestly think Elijah during Ahab and Jezebel is a good map. 0.97

00:50:57.060 And so if you're a Christian who, like me, I was talking to my dad about this a few weeks ago.

00:51:01.180 If you're a Christian who's, you've been alive for a minute and you're going like, dang, man, like it's rough out here.

00:51:08.220 What are we doing?

00:51:10.140 It's not looking good.

00:51:10.760 Yeah.

00:51:11.020 What are we doing?

00:51:13.000 You remember like what happens to Elijah. 0.97

00:51:15.320 So what you have is you have a nation that's marked by passive men and promiscuous, controlling women. 0.99

00:51:22.580 You have incredible moral decay, perversion rising, opposition to godliness. 0.82

00:51:31.140 They closed the churches.

00:51:33.440 That's like literally a thing that happened.

00:51:35.400 Yeah.

00:51:35.600 They shut down, canceled, deplatformed all the truth speaking prophets.

00:51:40.360 And at the end of his little ministry spot there, Elijah's on the mountain.

00:51:44.640 And he's like, man, like, I think I'm the only one left.

00:51:48.960 And I think Christians right now, they can feel like really alone.

00:51:51.600 Like, man, like I got friends deconverting and deconstructing.

00:51:54.860 And man, I thought that pastor was going to be solid.

00:51:56.720 And he wasn't.

00:51:57.400 And what happened?

00:51:58.360 Yeah.

00:51:59.120 And, uh, and then the Lord's like, Hey, I've reserved 7,000 who didn't bow the knee to bail.

00:52:05.800 And God's telling him, I always preserve a remnant for revival that will lead to a resurgence of my purposes in the church.

00:52:14.920 And you can take that to the bank.

00:52:16.900 Praise God.

00:52:17.360 Well, thank you so much, Pastor Josh.

00:52:18.700 I really appreciate you.

00:52:20.740 And if people want to reach out to you, ask you questions, can they do that?

00:52:24.260 And if so, how?

00:52:25.480 Yeah.

00:52:25.680 So, uh, I love playing around on social media.

00:52:28.040 Yeah.

00:52:28.200 It gets me in trouble sometimes, but I enjoy it.

00:52:30.320 No, it's fine.

00:52:30.740 You use social media in a really great way.

00:52:32.840 Not all pastors can say that.

00:52:34.540 And I love that.

00:52:35.560 Well, it depends who, uh, some people think it's great.

00:52:39.480 Some people don't, but of course that's the arena.

00:52:42.400 Yeah.

00:52:42.660 So Instagram, I think is at Josh underscore Howerton.

00:52:46.200 Is that right?

00:52:46.740 Yeah.

00:52:47.200 At Josh underscore Howerton.

00:52:48.500 I'm getting a thumbs up from my social media people.

00:52:50.140 That's right.

00:52:50.700 At Josh underscore Howerton.

00:52:52.180 Awesome.

00:52:52.380 Um, Facebook is, I don't even know what it is.

00:52:54.740 I, I, but I play around with it.

00:52:55.980 Yeah.

00:52:56.220 You can type in his name.

00:52:57.320 I'm sure it'll come up.

00:52:58.080 Well, thank you so much, Pastor Josh.

00:52:59.300 I really appreciate you.

00:53:00.180 Thank you, Abeth.

00:53:00.760 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 01, 2024

BONUS： Your Spiritual Duty to Vote ｜ Guest： Josh Howerton

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