Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 21, 2024


Ep 1006 ｜ The Pope is Wrong About Human Nature


Episode Stats

Length

52 minutes

Words per Minute

157.97525

Word Count

8,365

Sentence Count

554


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.840 The Pope says people are fundamentally good. Oh, I've got some things to say about that. I also
00:00:08.900 have a couple of disagreements with a few things that were said in Harrison Butker's speech. We'll
00:00:15.540 get into all of that in much more on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by
00:00:19.980 our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. It's goodranchers.com,
00:00:24.180 code Allie.
00:00:30.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so
00:00:39.400 far. Okay, so yesterday's episode was kind of flagged by YouTube for being only appropriate
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00:01:00.240 at all. But I mean, I guess I understand it. I don't understand everything that YouTube does,
00:01:05.460 especially since a lot of the things that we talk about are disturbing. But I'm guessing maybe the
00:01:09.940 mention of her name and just the nature of the story flagged it for YouTube. So hopefully that
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00:02:35.860 Also, you can meet me, possibly, or at least see me in person at the Share the Arrows event this fall,
00:02:43.360 September 28th. Guys, the response has been absolutely incredible. Rosaria Butterfield,
00:02:50.560 Elisa Childers, Abby Halberstadt, music by Grammy Award winning artist Francesca Battistelli. It is going
00:02:57.200 to be incredible. The hope is that all of the women in attendance, the thousands of you who will be
00:03:04.520 in attendance will feel empowered and equipped to take on the opposition, take on the enemy in every sphere
00:03:14.300 of life that you occupy. So this is not necessarily talking about something like running for office
00:03:20.600 or going viral in a school board speech. We're talking about in motherhood, in your work, in your
00:03:27.940 friendships, in all of your relationships, in every sphere that you occupy, every role that God has
00:03:34.640 given you. How can you advance his truth with clarity and courage? So that is the goal of this
00:03:43.360 conference is to give clarity and courage in an age of confusion and cowardice. And as you guys know,
00:03:52.140 the speakers that we have, incredible. We're actually looking to add at least one other speaker,
00:03:57.880 but I can't reveal that yet because we don't know if it's confirmed. But lots of fun developments when
00:04:03.080 it comes to the Share the Arrows event. Come by yourself. If you don't have anyone to come with,
00:04:08.620 come by yourself. You will leave with friends. If you want to come with friends, if you want to come
00:04:11.960 with family members, that's awesome. It is an all women's conference. So grab the women in your life who
00:04:16.860 you think would be edified by this. And come on, Dallas, Texas, September 28th. Go to sharethearrows.com.
00:04:23.060 All the options for purchasing tickets are right there. All right. So I know that we've talked about
00:04:28.380 this Harrison Bucker speech a few times now, but it is still like the center of our cultural
00:04:34.420 conversation. And I actually think that it's a really good conversation that's being had, even though
00:04:39.660 I really disagree with a lot of the takes that are opposing him. And over the past couple weeks,
00:04:46.600 or I guess week or so, couple episodes, we have highlighted the portions of the speech that
00:04:51.840 were most controversial. And then I explained why I agree with him. But then there are other
00:04:58.660 parts of the speech that I don't exactly agree with. And I think it's important to outline my
00:05:04.140 disagreements with some things that he said. And I don't want to get into some kind of semantic
00:05:09.880 debate or I'm not trying to split hairs here. But actually, I think it's important for my audience,
00:05:15.260 for my female audience to hear a different perspective on some parts of his speech and a
00:05:23.420 biblical perspective, I think, on some things that he said. This is going to be yet another
00:05:29.300 kind of like Catholic-filled episode, because before we talk about the Harrison Bucker speech,
00:05:34.560 I want to get into some disagreements that I have with the Pope.
00:05:39.160 And an interview that he gave with 60 Minutes over the weekend with Nora O'Donnell and some
00:05:49.240 comments that he made that were so blatantly wrong and unbiblical. It's actually incredible and makes
00:05:58.000 me very sad. And I hope that my Catholic listeners who I respect and love very much don't take this as
00:06:05.180 a personal attack on you. But of course, as a Reformed Protestant, as someone who loves God's Word,
00:06:11.160 I am going to disagree when the Pope or when anyone says something that contradicts inerrant
00:06:18.020 scriptures. So I guess we'll just go ahead and play the clip and you can hear it for yourself.
00:06:25.540 And then I'll give some context in my response. Here's top one.
00:06:28.820 People want to live. People forge ahead. And people are fundamentally good.
00:06:37.840 We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues and sinners, but the heart itself is good.
00:06:47.320 Okay, so people are fundamentally good. We are all fundamentally good. Yes, there are some rogues
00:06:53.500 and sinners, but the heart itself is good. So this is an even strange statement to hear from him in
00:06:58.960 context of what he said just a few minutes before this, when he said the church is like that. Everyone,
00:07:04.360 everyone, everyone, that so-and-so is a sinner. Me too. I am a sinner. Everyone. The gospel is for
00:07:11.120 everyone. And so he just kind of got finished saying that everyone is a sinner. And then he says,
00:07:17.900 but people are fundamentally good. We are all fundamentally good, rogues and sinners, but the
00:07:23.860 heart itself is good. And so there's a seeming contradiction right there. But I actually do
00:07:30.420 think that he, when he says that we are fundamentally good, that he does seem to be in alignment with
00:07:37.520 Catholic teaching. For example, Michael Knowles, someone that I consider a very trustworthy authority
00:07:43.380 on what Catholic doctrine says. He tweeted, it's somewhat confusing, especially since the clip
00:07:48.560 omits Pope Francis's affirmation just prior that we're all sinners, but the Pope's statement does
00:07:53.500 not necessarily contradict Catholic doctrine. We'll discuss on the show, he says. And then Liz Wheeler
00:08:02.380 said this, and I love both of these people very much and respect them a lot. Obviously disagree with
00:08:09.500 them theologically, but here's what she tweeted or posted on X. She said, stop freaking out people.
00:08:15.680 Pope Francis said, we are all fundamentally good because God said that. God saw all that he had
00:08:21.860 made and it was very good. Genesis 1 31, four verses before God created man and woman in his image and
00:08:29.400 likeness, which is good, obviously, but we're all fallen because of original sin, which is why we require
00:08:36.840 our savior. So as you can imagine, I have a lot to say to all of that. All right. So here is my issue
00:08:54.720 with this idea that we are fundamentally good, that our heart is good. Maybe there's a few sinners here
00:09:04.240 and there, but our heart is essentially good. My problem with that is that it's not true.
00:09:09.720 According to God's infallible, authoritative, and inerrant word. And I know my Catholic friends
00:09:15.200 typically respond, as Trent Horn did when he was on this show, with, well, here are all the problems
00:09:21.420 with sola scriptura. Okay, I'm not even talking about sola scriptura right now. Let's not, let's put
00:09:28.640 that to the side. Can we, can we acknowledge and affirm and agree on the fact that the Bible
00:09:33.900 is authoritative, that it actually matters, right? That we need to live in accordance to the best of
00:09:39.600 our ability by the power of the Holy Spirit with the word of God. Like we can all agree on that,
00:09:45.240 right? We agree that the Bible is infallible, that it is inerrant, and that it actually matters.
00:09:50.700 If we can just agree on that, then we can parse out our disagreements on doctrine. So my problem with
00:09:58.520 what the Pope said is that it is blatantly contradicted by the word of God. And here
00:10:02.980 are just a few examples of that. Mark 10, 18, no one is good except God alone. Jesus said that.
00:10:09.040 Jesus also said, John 8, 34, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. Jeremiah 17, 9,
00:10:15.640 the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. Who can understand it?
00:10:21.060 Ephesians 2, 3, you've heard me quote this chapter many, many times because I think it is probably the
00:10:27.000 best explanation of our state apart from Christ and what Christ actually accomplished for us on the
00:10:32.860 cross and what salvation is a gift given to us by grace through faith. Ephesians 2, 3, we all once
00:10:39.780 lived in the passions of our flesh and were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.
00:10:47.340 We were following the prince of the power of the air. Romans 3, 23 through 24, all have sinned and fall
00:10:54.400 short of the glory of God and are justified by his grace as a gift. Apart from Christ,
00:11:02.200 scripture tells us according to Ephesians 2, 1, Romans 5, 10, for example, we are dead in our sin.
00:11:09.920 We are dead in our sin. We are enemies of God apart from the justification that he offers us
00:11:18.640 freely through Christ. Ezekiel 11, 19, we have hearts of stone. We are without hope, without Christ.
00:11:28.020 And some of the responses that I got to the outlining of my biblical rebuttal to what Pope
00:11:37.280 Francis said, they included a couple things. They included, well, this doctrine of total depravity,
00:11:43.340 that's very new and very niche. And that was John Calvin and that was Martin Luther. Whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:11:50.120 You bringing up Martin Luther and John Calvin in response to my citing of scripture says more about
00:11:56.280 the depth of your theology than mine. I did not bring them up. I am looking at scripture. If you
00:12:03.460 think that that lends to the idea of total depravity or lends to the support of the idea of total
00:12:11.440 depravity, then okay, I did not mention them. I simply mentioned scripture. And then I have also
00:12:17.980 seen this idea. Well, look at the beginning when God said that creation was good. He made man and
00:12:25.860 woman. He brought them together. He said that it was very good. There is a difference between saying
00:12:31.740 a creation is good. A creation is well-made. It is good because God made it. We are good because we are
00:12:39.880 made in God's image. Therefore, we have value. We have innate worth. There is a difference between
00:12:46.360 that and morally good. And I know that you all know that. I know that you all know that there is
00:12:51.800 a difference between a moral good and a good creation. Yes, we are all made in the image of God.
00:12:59.400 And God loves us so much, John 3, 16, that he sent his only son to die for us. Jesus did not die
00:13:06.660 for plants and animals. He died for human beings that are made in God's image. And therefore, yes,
00:13:14.140 we have inherent, innate worth that no other creature in the universe has. That is all absolutely
00:13:22.580 true. But to say that we are all fundamentally good, that the heart is good, and there are just
00:13:30.800 some rogue sinners out there. Pope Francis is not talking about that we are good creations made in
00:13:37.680 God's image and therefore have value. Or else he wouldn't be talking about the heart. He wouldn't
00:13:42.020 be talking about, oh, yeah, some people are sinners, but really not many people. I mean, that's just
00:13:50.100 absolutely insane. I mean, this interview actually came after a special where they were talking about
00:13:56.080 the Holocaust. And that is just one example in all of human history that provides us with evidence of
00:14:04.520 just how sick and twisted the human heart is. It's not something that has to be learned. It's actually
00:14:11.680 something that is natural. Now, the doctrine of total depravity, if you want to call it that,
00:14:18.880 that we are all actually fundamentally bad. We are fundamentally sinful. We gravitate towards
00:14:27.520 selfishness rather than sacrifice. We gravitate towards our flesh. We gravitate towards satiating
00:14:37.320 our most carnal desires. That fact that we do, that we can literally see in the lives of the youngest
00:14:45.680 children. And of course, throughout history, and most importantly, in the Bible itself, does not
00:14:51.600 mean that all human beings are as bad as they could be. Of course, there are people who are not
00:14:58.480 Christians, who are very polite people. They're very nice. They're very generous. They're very kind
00:15:06.360 people. And they live a life that seems to emulate many Christian values. The idea that we are depraved,
00:15:18.220 that we are fundamentally flawed and needy and dependent upon a Savior for salvation does not
00:15:25.760 mean that everyone who is not a Christian is actively as bad as Hitler or as bad as they possibly
00:15:34.600 could be. What it means is that we have no ability whatsoever to save ourselves. And as I said in
00:15:44.520 my original response on X, if we are essentially good, then we do not need Jesus. If we are essentially
00:15:55.580 good, then we do not need the gospel. If we don't need Jesus, if we don't need the gospel, then the gospel
00:16:02.000 is not good news. And if the gospel is not good news, then what are we even doing? Why does
00:16:08.800 Christianity even exist? That is why Jesus came to die and was raised up to reconcile us people dead
00:16:17.480 in our sin to a holy God because we are so unable to save ourselves. That is literally the distinction
00:16:24.880 between Christianity and every other religion. Every other religion tells you how you can get to God.
00:16:30.720 Every other religion will tell you that you're essentially good and that you just have to
00:16:35.140 work on fully manifesting that. Then you will finally make yourself acceptable. Then you will
00:16:41.960 work your way toward salvation. You will work your way toward heaven. A little bit of your merit,
00:16:48.600 a little bit of God's help. Yeah, every other religion tells you that. That's not the gospel. That's not
00:16:54.500 Christianity. The distinction between Christianity and every other false religion is that we could
00:17:00.700 not save ourselves. And so God had to come down the proverbial mountain and save us. That is the
00:17:07.120 difference. That's supposed to be the difference between Christianity and every other religion. So
00:17:11.180 any religion, any flavor of religion that tells you that you have to work your way towards salvation,
00:17:17.780 that you have to work your way towards heaven, work your way to being acceptable and worthy to God is not
00:17:26.440 Christianity according to God's word because that is not the gospel. The gospel is that we could not
00:17:35.240 earn it. That we were dead in our sin and by grace through faith, Jesus made us alive and reconciled us
00:17:45.640 to a holy, perfect God who could not accept sin. So Jesus made us clean. Him who knew no sin became
00:17:54.360 sin so that we could become the righteousness of God. It was Jesus's sacrifice that made us righteous.
00:18:02.600 I think of the Heidelberg Catechism. It was written in 1563. A team of ministers and university theologians
00:18:10.960 coming together in Heidelberg. Most of you are probably familiar with this. If you're not,
00:18:16.500 I really encourage you to get you a copy of the Heidelberg Catechism. Teach it to your children.
00:18:21.480 Teach it to yourself. And the first question, what is your only comfort in life and in death?
00:18:28.740 Answer, that I am not my own, but belong with body and soul, both in life and in death,
00:18:33.580 to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ. He has fully paid for all my sins with His precious blood and
00:18:39.340 has set me free from all the power of the devil. He also preserves me in such a way that without the
00:18:44.560 will of my Heavenly Father, not a hair can fall from my head. Indeed, all things must work together
00:18:50.240 for my salvation. Therefore, by His Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life and makes me heartily
00:18:56.980 willing and ready from now on to live for Him. It's all Christ. It's all His Spirit. We do not
00:19:05.040 have goodness in and of ourselves. And there are a few other verses that come to mind as well
00:19:13.560 when it comes to this topic of depravity, whether we are all naturally good or bad. Romans 14, 23.
00:19:21.720 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever
00:19:28.500 does not proceed from faith is sin. And so there's some context there to make that make a little bit
00:19:35.240 more sense about what is being eaten. But really, that's not the important part when it comes to
00:19:40.360 this conversation. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. That categorizes a whole lot of
00:19:50.720 people, everyone, as sinners. Hebrews 11, 6. And without faith, it is impossible to please God.
00:19:57.960 For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek
00:20:03.360 Him. And of course, if we interpret Scripture by Scripture and context by context, we see in
00:20:08.700 Ephesians 2 that even those who seek Him are only empowered to do so by the grace that He gives us
00:20:14.160 as a gift. The Bible also teaches us that we are born dead in our transgression and sin. Psalm 51, 5.
00:20:23.220 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 58, 3. The wicked are
00:20:28.620 estranged from the womb. They go astray from birth, speaking lies. And then, of course, Ephesians 2, 1-5.
00:20:35.040 As we've already explained a few times, being children of wrath, it was only because God being
00:20:43.540 rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our
00:20:48.620 trespasses. Can a dead person earn something? Can a dead person clean themselves off? Can a dead person
00:20:54.520 make themselves acceptable and worthy to God? Does a dead person have a sacrifice to offer?
00:21:01.320 No. A dead person is helpless. A dead person stinks. A dead person can do nothing. Even when we were
00:21:08.960 dead in our trespasses, God made us alive together with Christ. By grace, you have been saved. The
00:21:17.520 Bible teaches that the unregenerate man is dead in transgressions, Ephesians 2, 5. That we are held
00:21:24.260 captive by sin, John 3, 19. John 8, 34. That we don't seek God apart from the power of the Holy
00:21:31.120 Spirit, Romans 3, 10-11. That we love darkness, John 3, 19. That we have no understanding of God,
00:21:39.620 1 Corinthians 2, 14. And so, we suppress God's truth. That's Romans 1, 18. We live the lifestyle
00:21:49.880 that seems right to us, Proverbs 14, 12. We see the gospel, biblical truth as foolishness,
00:21:57.380 1 Corinthians 1, 18. Our mind is actually hostile to God. We put ourselves in enmity with God apart
00:22:05.400 from Christ. That is Romans 8, 7. So, the fact of the matter is, is that, no. We are not fundamentally
00:22:16.140 good. The heart is not fundamentally good. Yes, Ecclesiastes tells us that eternity is written
00:22:22.720 on the human heart. So, because we are made in God's image, because eternity is written on our
00:22:29.000 hearts, there is, I think, an innate understanding of right and wrong, of good and bad. But that does
00:22:39.680 not mean that we have a natural propensity towards the good. We don't. I think human history, again,
00:22:46.940 shows us that, very obviously. So, that would be my response to the Pope. He said some things in the
00:22:57.000 interview that I agreed with, some other things I disagreed with. I appreciate, for example,
00:23:02.500 his stance on surrogacy. He's made very strong statements against surrogacy. And I've always
00:23:08.580 appreciated the theology of the body that has been put forth by the Catholic Church and appreciate my
00:23:15.640 Catholic friends, at least the Catholic friends that I have, their stance on abortion and
00:23:21.000 reproductive technology. I think evangelicals have little ways to catch up on those things and
00:23:28.160 having a full, uniform theological, biblical understanding of the reproductive world,
00:23:34.780 reproductive technology, as well as abortion, all of that. So, I appreciate that about my Catholic
00:23:42.820 friends. But look, at the end of the day, what the Pope said, even if many Catholics disagree with it,
00:23:50.640 which I'm thankful for, what the Pope said is anti-gospel. And without the gospel, there's no
00:23:57.020 Christianity. And it is worth a thousand reformations to get the gospel right.
00:24:12.820 I don't know if what I'm about to say is necessarily a defense of Catholicism, but it's
00:24:18.840 certainly a defense of many of the beliefs that Harrison Butker espoused in his speech,
00:24:26.140 which are traditionally Catholic values that I also, as a Reformed Protestant, share. So,
00:24:33.360 Sarah Haynes, she's a co-host on The View, she says that, you know, it's fine to be a certain
00:24:40.440 flavor of Christian. But this Harrison Butker guy, this chief's kicker, he's an extremist. He's the
00:24:47.260 scary kind that it's not okay to beat. Here's Sotu. What this man is doing is not just a devout
00:24:53.180 Catholic. This is someone who's practicing something called the traditional Latin mass,
00:24:57.880 which is a divergent from the majority of Catholics. It's compared to being cult-like
00:25:02.440 and extremists like some religions in the Middle East and Asia. So, this is a very extreme religion.
00:25:08.260 And what bothers me about that as a Christian is that when people abuse Christianity, they often
00:25:15.720 not only cherry-pick from the Bible, they misinterpret and lie by omission.
00:25:22.200 Okay, so obviously this is an absolutely ridiculous thing to say, even if I don't agree
00:25:30.400 with Harrison Butker's theology, for her to say that basically the only acceptable form of Christianity
00:25:38.060 is a liberal form of Christianity that believes everything that the world believes, that is
00:25:44.460 progressive, is absurd. Now, it's not surprising. That's what a lot of people like her believe,
00:25:51.800 that sure, it's fine to be a Christian. It's fine to believe in the Bible as long as your
00:25:57.060 interpretation aligns with worldly dogma. As long as your biblical beliefs never contradict
00:26:05.740 the popular democratic talking points of the time, then you're fine. For her to say that it's
00:26:13.560 conservative Christians or conservative Catholics like Harrison Bucker that cherry-pick, and what,
00:26:19.520 it's liberal Christians who don't? I would love for her to sit here with me and tell me her
00:26:26.340 systematic approach to studying Scripture. What does she know about God? Explain to me
00:26:31.780 systematic theology. What is the gospel, Sarah Hans? Could you tell me what the gospel is?
00:26:36.900 Do you even believe that the Word of God is inerrant? Do you believe that it's infallible? Do you
00:26:40.980 believe that it's authoritative? Which verses are cherry-picked? Which verses are okay to cite,
00:26:47.120 and which verses are not okay to cite? It's funny. Actually, the real cherry-pickers of Scripture
00:26:52.900 are so-called progressive Christians, which that is a paradox. I don't believe that exists.
00:26:57.760 Progressivism will not let you, because of its doctrines, actually hold on to biblical, historic,
00:27:04.600 Christian doctrines. They just contradict each other, and so they actually have to cherry-pick.
00:27:09.760 So, for example, they'll say, oh, well, you shouldn't look to the Bible to inform your views
00:27:14.020 on abortion, for example, because that's some scary Christian nationalism, fascism, extremism.
00:27:19.140 You can't look at Psalm 139 that says that we were all knit together in our mother's womb,
00:27:23.880 and we have purpose, and we're created with intentionality, even from the moment of conception.
00:27:30.460 You can't look at that. That's cherry-picking somehow, even though, in context, that's really
00:27:35.300 what it means. But they will look at, for example, Acts 2 that describes the early church of having
00:27:41.820 everything in common and selling what they had in order to use the proceeds to care for their fellow
00:27:50.560 Christians, and they will say that that's the basis for communism and socialism. When that is
00:27:55.340 actually taking something out of context and ignoring the blatant reality that those early
00:27:59.800 Christians were not compelled by the government to give up their property and their money for the
00:28:04.100 sake of other people, they were compelled by the power of the Holy Spirit to voluntarily give what
00:28:11.400 they had for other people. That wasn't the basis of a country. That wasn't the government barging in
00:28:17.840 and saying, if you don't do this, I'll put you in jail or shoot you, which is what communism and
00:28:23.180 socialism is. So, I actually find very often that it is so-called progressive Christians who will
00:28:29.540 cherry-pick the Bible. Oh, the Old Testament says to love the foreigner. Okay, so the Old Testament
00:28:36.140 says to love the foreigner, which you think, erroneously, is a prescription for open borders,
00:28:42.020 but it also says the homosexuality is an abomination and that anyone who practices it should be stoned.
00:28:47.440 Which one is it? Which one is it? Really, I think that we can look at the Old Testament and say,
00:28:52.640 okay, we're not ancient Israel. We don't need to apply all of those laws to today. And of course,
00:28:57.980 Christians don't believe that because Jesus became our ceremonial cleansing, so we don't have to
00:29:02.440 follow the cleansing laws. But we can look at God's law giving of the Old Testament in the Old Testament
00:29:07.560 and say, okay, these are principles that are still good principles that we should still apply. And of
00:29:12.760 course, that's what many of the founding Americans did in the creation of our Bill of Rights and the
00:29:19.780 creation of our laws. And so, again, it's people like Sarah Haynes who don't have a systematic,
00:29:28.900 holistic view of Scripture, who really know very, very little about theology. They know very little
00:29:35.160 about how to actually build a biblical worldview and what values should actually flow from Scripture.
00:29:42.320 I'm not claiming I have it all right. I'm not claiming that Harrison Butker has it all right.
00:29:46.660 But to say that the only acceptable form of Christianity is the form that basically rejects
00:29:52.000 all of the controversial stuff, it's weak. It's weak. And actually, it was interesting to hear
00:29:57.580 Whoopi Goldberg because Whoopi Goldberg defended Harrison Butker. She said, listen, I like when people
00:30:04.180 say what they need to say. He's at a Catholic college. He's a staunch Catholic. These are his
00:30:08.160 beliefs, and he's welcome to them. I don't have to believe them. I don't have to accept them.
00:30:12.460 Okay. Whoopi Goldberg seems to understand what almost everyone seems to have forgotten in this
00:30:19.100 whole Harrison Butker thing. I've been going back and forth with people who are like, I hate it when
00:30:24.400 a man tells a woman what to do and tries to put a woman in her place and tells me that I have to be
00:30:31.720 barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and that I can't have a career. That's just like, I even heard,
00:30:36.700 gosh, what's her name? Jenna Bush? What's her? I forget her married name. Jenna and Hoda on their
00:30:48.080 show. She said her defense was, oh, you know, women should be able to do what they want to do.
00:30:54.740 And let's just let everyone live their lives. It's fine. This morally relativistic like mentality that
00:31:02.140 every choice is equally valid and equally healthy and equally biblical. I just want to say, like,
00:31:09.220 no one told you to do anything. Harrison Butker is an individual, a Catholic, who was giving a speech
00:31:17.360 at a Catholic university. He was asked to speak to Catholic students there about things that would
00:31:24.560 align with Catholic doctrine, and that is what he did. No one forced you to even listen to it. You
00:31:29.400 didn't have to acknowledge it. You didn't have to watch it. You didn't have to talk about it. He has
00:31:33.460 no authority over your life. Even if I don't agree with everything that he that he said, like he might
00:31:39.460 not agree with me having this podcast. Do I feel attacked by him? Do I feel like he is going to come
00:31:45.980 in here right now and rip this microphone away and tell me to go home? No, it's okay for him to share
00:31:53.360 his perspective. That does nothing. It doesn't affect you. It has no impact on your life. It has
00:32:00.480 no impact on your life, okay? Like, you can just disagree with it, and you can agree with parts of it
00:32:05.560 and say, cool, and move on. You can even be offended by parts of it. I think that's fine, too. There's no
00:32:11.560 there's nothing wrong necessarily about being offended by something. But to act like he is giving you
00:32:19.840 orders, and he has power invested in him, vested in him by God himself or by Joe Biden to come into
00:32:29.860 your kitchen and tell you to cook more, it's just silly. It's just ridiculous. And I really think it
00:32:36.320 comes across like the visceral reaction that a lot of women have to what Harrison Bucker said. And if
00:32:41.240 you don't know what I'm talking about, you can go listen to last week's episodes where we talk about
00:32:44.580 these things about, or what he said about motherhood and the importance of family and
00:32:50.120 how women should pursue that and shouldn't just be thinking about their career and money. I really
00:32:58.380 think it comes across, like the anger comes across in a lot of ways is insecurity. And I saw someone
00:33:03.500 ask this, which is a tough question to ask. Like, are you mad at Harrison Bucker or are you mad that
00:33:09.840 you're not married yet? Because those are two different things. Maybe you really are mad at
00:33:14.460 Harrison Bucker, but maybe you're mad at your circumstance. And if that's the case, then it's
00:33:19.620 not right to take that out on Harrison Bucker or anyone who says that marriage is important or
00:33:26.220 marriage is something that we should pursue. Sarah Haynes also went on to say, so what I can say to
00:33:35.320 Bucker as a Christian is if you're using this to oppress people or hold them down, you're not
00:33:41.180 walking with Jesus. Okay? Again, he gave a speech. Are you okay? He gave a speech. Who is he oppressing?
00:33:50.920 Who is he holding down? If you are using the religion, if you're more obsessed with the religious
00:33:57.160 rituals and practices than you are with the word of Jesus, you're not walking with Jesus. That is so
00:34:03.040 presumptuous. Because he goes to a traditional Latin mass, that means that he's more obsessed
00:34:08.960 with the religious rituals than actually walking with Jesus. You don't know that at all. You don't
00:34:15.320 know that. Just because someone goes through a ritual doesn't mean that it is only something that's
00:34:19.980 on the outside and isn't symbolic of what's on the inside. That is a really hefty assumption about
00:34:26.020 someone's spiritual state. And if you're using it for the judgment of others and as a weapon to beat
00:34:31.820 people down, you're also not walking with Jesus. Like, I just want to—I just—I don't—this is just
00:34:43.800 such typical liberal Christianity. Inch-deep theology. No real understanding of the Bible at all. And I say
00:34:54.620 this, obviously, as someone who is Protestant. I would say, just by Haynes' language, things like
00:35:01.200 walking with Jesus—like, I don't really hear that from my Catholic friends—it almost does seem
00:35:07.000 like she is a Protestant, kind of just attacking Catholicism or what she thinks Catholicism is. Like,
00:35:16.180 again, I don't have any problem if she had a substantive disagreement with Catholic theology.
00:35:20.940 But to assume that because someone goes through rituals that are different than yours,
00:35:26.260 that they don't have any spiritual depth, I would say that that is wrong. And of course,
00:35:33.120 I think that she's wrong that just because he has conservative values and traditionally Catholic
00:35:37.340 values that he's attacking and oppressing people. Get over yourself. Calm down. I'm happy to have you on
00:35:43.820 the show and we can parse out what biblical theology actually looks like. Okay. Now let's get into some
00:35:52.460 of the things that I do disagree with Harrison Butker on in the speech. And it's a message also
00:35:59.880 to women who—maybe you agreed with the spirit of his speech, but it did kind of sting some of the
00:36:06.120 things that he was saying. And I just want to remind you, again, of something that we've talked about a lot,
00:36:10.560 and that is how God uses Christian women and Christians in all stages of life, no matter your
00:36:17.660 relationship status, no matter how many kids you have. I do think it's important for me to remind
00:36:23.680 you of what the Bible says about those things and how that's more important than what any man says,
00:36:29.720 any person says.
00:36:40.560 Okay. So as we've discussed, Harrison Butker said a lot of really good things that needed to be said
00:36:47.900 about politicians who are Catholic in name only, yet promote abortion like Joe Biden, like Nancy
00:36:55.040 Pelosi. And I was happy that he highlighted that a lot of pro-abortion politicians are Catholic.
00:37:04.180 When Catholic doctrine is so clear about the evils of abortion and highlighted that hypocrisy there and
00:37:11.220 said it's not enough to just be nice. He said the church of nice, which I loved that, that that is
00:37:17.100 not the same thing as Christianity. That's not the same thing as the Catholic church. And he spoke about
00:37:23.840 the importance, again, of motherhood, marriage, of family, and all of that. I really appreciated so much
00:37:28.840 of what he said and agreed with the spirit of what he said. But some things in there, I just
00:37:35.000 didn't sit quite right with me because I don't see their foundation in scripture. Here's thought three.
00:37:41.760 How many of you are sitting here now about to cross this stage and are thinking about all the
00:37:46.280 promotions and titles you are going to get in your career? Some of you may go on to lead successful
00:37:51.220 careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited
00:37:55.640 about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world. I can tell you that my
00:38:00.640 beautiful wife, Isabel, would be the first to say that her life truly started when she began living
00:38:06.020 her vocation as a wife and as a mother. And you know what? I, I agree with the vast majority of that.
00:38:15.900 And I love what he said. That's not telling people that you have to be a mom, but he said,
00:38:22.800 um, he said that his wife, that her life started when she began living her vocation as a wife and as
00:38:32.360 a mother. And I just want to give encouragement to those of you who are not wives and maybe,
00:38:40.380 maybe you are a wife and you're not a mother yet is that that is not when your life starts. You are not
00:38:48.240 in a holding pattern. You are not in a waiting room. You are not in some kind of earthly purgatory
00:38:54.580 where you are a less than Christian or an almost woman. That is not the stage of life that you're
00:39:04.060 in right now. If you are single, if you are dating, if you are married without children,
00:39:09.380 you want those things. You hope that God blesses with you, uh, blesses you with those things, but
00:39:15.180 there's no guarantee of those blessings. And you are struggling with thinking that
00:39:21.900 if you don't get married or you don't have kids, that you will be less than that. You're somehow
00:39:27.560 inadequate, that you're not usable or productive for God's kingdom. Let me tell you, that is a lie
00:39:34.100 from the pit of hell. Satan would love to tell you that your true sanctification, that your true
00:39:40.360 purpose, that your real obedience to Jesus starts in some far off day. When something else happens,
00:39:48.080 when your relationship status happens, when you get pregnant or have five children, that then you'll be
00:39:54.540 a real woman. Then you'll be a real Christian. Then God will really be able to use you. Then you'll
00:40:00.280 really be able to obey and glorify God. That kind of mentality keeps you spiritually complacent.
00:40:07.740 Look, you have to run the race that is marked out for you. Not what is marked out for someone else,
00:40:16.760 what is marked out for you. You run the race that is marked out for you right now. None of us is
00:40:24.340 guaranteed tomorrow. None of us, if you're not married, is guaranteed marriage. None of us, if you
00:40:29.640 don't have children, is guaranteed children. We are not guaranteed all of these things. It's good to
00:40:35.260 desire them. But God does not promise that he is going to give us all of the desires that we have
00:40:42.500 in this life. Yes, Psalm 37, 4 says, delight yourself in the Lord and he will give you the
00:40:47.700 desires of your heart. But if you're delighting yourself in the Lord, then the desire of your heart
00:40:55.420 will simply be to honor him and to glorify him no matter what stage of life that you're in.
00:41:02.120 So I don't want you to think of this time period in your life as only preparation for marriage and
00:41:09.220 kids. I'm not saying it's bad to prepare in some way for those things. But we just don't know. We're
00:41:17.520 just not guaranteed them. Your highest calling as a woman is to glorify God. And yes, being a wife,
00:41:26.200 being a mom is such a high calling. Of course, I think it is a higher calling than pursuing some
00:41:35.740 VP title at a marketing firm. I do. I do. I think it is more sanctifying because it causes you to be
00:41:43.160 sacrificial. It causes you to be selfless. But look, God is asking all of us in every stage of life that
00:41:50.320 we're in and every second that we are alive to take up our cross and follow him. He is going to
00:41:56.920 sanctify us no matter if we are married, no matter if we have children. So do not think that you are
00:42:04.340 less than. Do not think that you are not usable by God. Do not think that you don't really need to
00:42:09.640 glorify him, obey him, be strong and be courageous and be confident in his work on your behalf if you
00:42:17.820 are not married. So I just want to remind you of that, that it's really tempting to think that.
00:42:25.420 It's really tempting to spend all of your time worrying about your relationship status, whether
00:42:31.260 or not you'll get married and have kids one day, and to think that that's when you'll finally be
00:42:35.580 happy, that's when you'll finally be joyful. Look, that is also covetousness, which we are commanded
00:42:42.640 against. You are coveting other people who are married or have kids. You're also coveting your
00:42:48.340 hypothetical future self. And that's the worst place for your mind to be is in the future, because
00:42:56.620 it inevitably hangs your hopes or hangs your fears on something that may or may not ever happen.
00:43:04.720 At least when we're thinking about the past, we're thinking about something that's fixed,
00:43:09.240 thinking about things in terms of a concrete reality that actually once existed. And if we're
00:43:15.380 thinking about the present, then we're doing our best that we can to honor God in this present moment.
00:43:20.080 But thinking about the future and dwelling on the future, worrying about the future is really
00:43:24.600 the worst thing that we can do, because it takes us out of our present moment and the responsibilities
00:43:30.320 that are before us and puts us in this hypothetical space that just causes anxiety. And how many times
00:43:36.280 does Jesus tell us, do not be worried, do not be anxious, do not fear. And so I just wanted to remind
00:43:44.020 you of that, that your race starts right now, that you need to be going full throttle right now, doing the
00:43:50.120 next right thing in faith with excellence and for the glory of God. That can look really mundane most days
00:43:58.860 and in most moments. But trust that God is using you to advance his kingdom and to bring other people
00:44:05.140 to himself by you just being faithful in the little things. There will be big things one day for you to
00:44:11.540 be faithful in too. So I just wanted to remind you of that, that your life starts right now. Your
00:44:18.520 sanctification is going on right now. It doesn't start when you become a wife or a mom, as beautiful and
00:44:25.380 wonderful as that is. All right, let's play top four. She's a primary educator to our children.
00:44:34.880 She's the one who ensures I never let football or my business become a distraction from that of a
00:44:40.340 husband and father. She's a person that knows me best at my core. And it is through our marriage
00:44:45.620 that Lord willing, we will both attain salvation. She sounds like an amazing woman and they sound like
00:44:52.960 an amazing couple. And I love that for them. Of course, I don't see any biblical foundation for
00:44:58.020 the belief that we attain salvation through marriage. I know Catholics believe that marriage
00:45:02.860 is a sacrament, but we do not believe, I don't believe that the Bible teaches that there is
00:45:11.440 salvation that is attained through those things, salvation that is attained through marriage. And now,
00:45:17.580 obviously, I know some of you are going to say priests are not married, the Pope is not married,
00:45:22.000 so how could they believe that? But I believe from my understanding that the Catholic belief is
00:45:27.000 that priests are married to the Church, and I'm guessing that's the same thing for the Pope as
00:45:31.460 well. And so I guess there is a sort of marriage sacrament there, even though it's different than
00:45:35.480 a man and a woman who come together in marriage. And so, yes, that would be different than what I see
00:45:41.540 the Bible teaching. And again, I think it is actually possible. As much as we need to elevate marriage
00:45:47.700 and childbearing in a world that seems to hate those things, it actually is possible to lift it
00:45:53.100 to a plane that is too high, higher than what the Bible teaches. St. Paul says it is better to be
00:46:03.600 married than to burn with passion. But if you are able to remain single for dedicating all of your time
00:46:10.080 and your energy and your focus to the ministry in the same way that Jesus did, of course, then that
00:46:15.220 is even better. That is actually seen as a gift. And then there's Sop 5.
00:46:21.120 I say this all the time, that iron sharpens iron. It's a great reminder that those closest to us
00:46:29.020 should be making us better. If you are dating someone who doesn't even share your faith,
00:46:33.540 how do you expect that person to help you become a saint? Make no mistake, you are entering into
00:46:38.520 mission territory in a post-God world. But you were made for this, and with God by your side
00:46:44.120 and a constant striving for virtue within your vocation, you too can be a saint.
00:46:48.920 So, obviously, I'm going to take issue with this idea of striving to become a saint. That is not
00:46:55.060 what Protestants believe. If you look at Scripture and the use of the word saints, it is referring to
00:47:01.860 all Christians. All Christians are saints. We are set apart. We are holy, not by any effort or work that
00:47:09.780 we have put into attaining sainthood, but because of Jesus' finished work on the cross and the salvation
00:47:17.060 that we have by grace through faith. 1 Corinthians 1-2, for example, to the church of God in Corinth,
00:47:22.720 to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, which is essentially what a saint is.
00:47:29.420 They come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated saints. And so, you see the
00:47:34.480 same kind of greeting at the beginning of Philippians, at the beginning of Ephesians, for example,
00:47:39.140 that he is greeting the saints in Ephesus or the saints in Philippi and then 1 Corinthians,
00:47:45.180 those who are set apart and called to be holy, that is saint. And so, we see that Christians are
00:47:51.020 now saints and members of the household of God. That's what the book of Ephesians tells us. And so,
00:47:57.080 it's not that we, as Protestants, believe that there isn't a working out of your faith with fear and
00:48:03.700 trembling. Of course, that is biblical, or that we shouldn't be, through grace-driven effort,
00:48:09.820 striving towards living a life that is in accordance with Scripture. Of course, we do,
00:48:15.580 but we don't believe that there is any special status that is achieved because of that. But we
00:48:21.020 are loving because God first loved us. And we are attempting to, we are working toward
00:48:31.160 a life that is, a life that is in alignment with Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit,
00:48:40.880 and that is empowered by God simply because we want to glorify Him, not because we are attaining any
00:48:48.920 kind of special status. But a lot of people really liked Harrison Butker's speech, I think,
00:48:55.540 for a really good reason, because, gosh, he said some really, really courageous things.
00:49:01.660 Actually, if you see, if you look at the sales of the different NFL jerseys,
00:49:08.340 Butker's jersey is the most popular right now jersey that's sold in the NFL. You've got Patrick
00:49:15.540 Mahomes, who is the Chiefs quarterback, a really good player, who is typically at the top, and
00:49:19.780 Harrison Butker is beating him right now. And that's just because people are really hungry to hear truth.
00:49:25.440 Now, like I said, a lot of people are mad. The Kansas City X account,
00:49:31.160 they literally doxed him and tweeted the neighborhood where he lives. They had to apologize
00:49:37.340 for that. And actually, I saw that the Attorney General, Andrew Bailey, he said,
00:49:45.220 My office is demanding accountability after Kansas City doxed Harrison Butker last night for daring to
00:49:49.840 express his religious beliefs. I will enforce the Missouri Human Rights Act to ensure Missourians
00:49:53.400 are not targeted for their free exercise of religion. Stay tuned. Dang. Like that was from
00:49:59.180 the city's public account. Literally tweeted where he lives. That is so unbelievable. You were so
00:50:06.140 unhinged. And it's so obvious. It's so obvious who the people are on the side of wickedness. It's just
00:50:14.400 insane. I just think that the chasm between good and evil is more stark every day. And I will say
00:50:26.540 that even though that is a scary development, I'm not sure that anyone, any football player would have
00:50:34.660 given this speech five years ago. I just don't know. I don't know. Maybe he would have and we
00:50:40.960 would have never heard about it. But five years ago, would someone have been brave enough to go to a
00:50:47.720 college commencement, talk about IVF, surrogacy, reproductive technology, the importance of being
00:50:53.560 a mom? I'm not. I'm not sure. I think the pendulum has swung so far into the side of left-wing extremism
00:51:01.880 that we are seeing some brave people on the other side say, whoa, whoa, whoa, I got to anchor it over
00:51:07.860 here. And I think he's one of those people. I think that's what he did in the speech. So I appreciate
00:51:13.220 that. All right. We're just going to play a clip to end this. This is from American Idol. It was
00:51:18.400 Cece Winans. She sang The Goodness of God with one of the other contestants or one of the contestants
00:51:25.180 on American Idol who had made the top 12. So we'll play a clip of that in just a second.
00:51:29.400 All right. Here is thought six.
00:51:41.860 Because all my life you have been faithful. Oh, yes, he has. All my life you have been so,
00:51:54.020 so good. Every breath that I am able, I will sing of the goodness of God.
00:52:09.100 Oh, so good. You should go watch that on Instagram. It's so good. So incredible. And they flashed to
00:52:18.420 Katy Perry's face at one point and you could see that she was tearing up and there were a lot of
00:52:22.900 comments about that. Like, come on, Katy Perry, you know, you know, because I'm pretty sure she was
00:52:28.360 raised Christian and has walked away since then. But it's like when the gospel speaks to your heart.
00:52:35.300 And I just thought that that was so beautiful and so much talent. And I just love to hear,
00:52:40.380 listen to, see people who like God has just poured so much talent into them and they're using it for
00:52:48.840 his glory. And I love that so much. So I just wanted to end on that happy, positive note. All right.
00:52:55.600 We will be back here tomorrow.