Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 101

00:00:00.000 Hello, Relatable listeners. Happy Friday. Hope everyone has had a great week.

00:00:05.240 Today on Relatable, I am going to talk to Matt Walsh of The Matt Walsh Show on The Daily Wire.

00:00:12.520 You can listen to that wherever you get your podcasts. We are going to talk about theology

00:00:18.020 a little bit. We're going to talk about heaven and hell, salvation, some of the differences

00:00:22.200 that we believe he's a Catholic and I'm a Protestant. Matt, thank you so much for joining me.

00:00:27.520 Hey, Allie. Thanks for having me on.

00:00:30.240 Yeah. So we could talk about a lot of things. There are a ton of things that we agree on,

00:00:36.100 but there are a few things that we disagree on. Number one, watermelon. Number two, cargo shorts.

00:00:43.240 Number three, well, I actually think that I agree with you on dogs, but I think that you might be

00:00:49.200 a little too harsh about dog owners. So I was thinking that's kind of what we could focus on

00:00:54.380 today. If you want to talk about cargo shorts, I'll talk about those all day. It's one of the

00:00:59.440 few things I support. I criticize most things, but cargo shorts I'm on board with. Very practical

00:01:04.100 and stylish, in my opinion. Stylish. See, I get the pragmatic argument. I don't really get the

00:01:09.460 style argument. Why do you have to go that far into it? Well, because I think a man's, we could

00:01:16.000 really talk about this for 30 minutes if you wanted to. A man's style should, style for a man should

00:01:21.000 not be like style for a woman. Style for a man is utility. And so if you see a guy who looks like

00:01:27.720 he's ready to go, he's got the fanny pack, he's got the cargo shorts, that's a guy who's, you know,

00:01:32.660 that's style because it is utility. So that's what I'm trying to say. It's one and the same

00:01:36.280 in a masculine sense.

00:01:38.200 So why, but why can't, why can't a woman have style that is synonymous with utility? I mean,

00:01:46.180 there's a lot of things that a woman needs, especially when she has kids. She, she could, I

00:01:51.040 would look, I would be perfectly in favor of that because what I was trying to explain is that my

00:01:54.280 wife, you know, she doesn't like carrying a purse around and she doesn't have pockets and whatever

00:01:58.820 outfit she always has on. So then I ended up carrying all of her stuff. And so that's where

00:02:04.040 the extra pockets come into. Look, if the women, if you women want to take up the mantle of wearing

00:02:09.040 pocketed items of clothing, I would be perfectly fine with that.

00:02:13.260 Okay. Okay. I'll consider that. Um, number two, the watermelon. Why don't you like, you

00:02:17.960 said any melon, right? You just don't like, uh, I know. I just think that watermelon is

00:02:23.300 it's yeah, no, I, people, people don't, people, when I call something overrated, people don't

00:02:28.160 understand. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's overrated. Like it doesn't deserve

00:02:31.120 all the hype that it gets watermelon. I'm not saying it's bad.

00:02:33.700 In your experience, watermelon has just gotten a lot of hype.

00:02:36.480 It's just got, it's got a ton of hype. It's like peanut butter. I mean, it's just, it's

00:02:40.100 one of those things just gets way more credit than it deserves.

00:02:43.500 Okay. Gotcha. And then the last thing is dogs. I would like you to clarify that just in case

00:02:47.740 there's anyone listening to this that thinks that you are an evil dog hater.

00:02:52.860 Uh, well, I might be evil, but I don't, if I am, it's got nothing to do with my, my feelings

00:02:56.880 towards dogs. I have a dog. It may horrify people to learn. I actually, I own a dog and he's

00:03:01.040 fine. I'm fine with him. He's cool. I like him. We get along, but, uh, he's just a dog.

00:03:05.600 I just, he's an animal. So people that humanize their pets or, you know, their dog is the most

00:03:09.960 important thing in their life to them. I just think if your dog is the most important thing

00:03:13.380 in your life, you need, you need a better life. Yeah. I actually, I totally agree with

00:03:18.560 you on that. Plus I'm a cat person, but I, I do have a dog as well, but the arguments that

00:03:24.120 you were getting were crazy. How personally offended people were by you just kind of saying

00:03:31.740 dogs are animals. People really don't want to hear that. Well, and the stupidest thing people

00:03:37.680 do is they say, uh, they say, well, dogs are, you know, a dog will never betray you. A dog will

00:03:43.380 never hurt you. Dogs are, are perfectly loving. Well, no, it's, he's an animal. He relies 95% on

00:03:49.400 instinct. He likes you because you feed him. And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to rain on people's

00:03:53.520 parade, but let's just be real here. You know, because here's the thing, if a dog is so,

00:03:57.580 if we're going to give a dog credit for being courageous and loyal and loving, then should,

00:04:01.520 what, should we be putting them in prison when they, when they steal something or when they,

00:04:05.100 I mean, if we're, if we're, if we're ascribing moral motives to them, then is it on the other

00:04:09.500 end too, do we blame them morally for doing the wrong thing? No, we don't because they're animals

00:04:13.900 and they don't really know most of the time what they're doing. Uh, whereas a human, a human can hurt

00:04:18.120 you, uh, because a human has the power to make choices, but a human can also, when a human does

00:04:23.300 something nice for you, it means a lot more because that's someone who knew, who understood

00:04:29.040 the sacrifice they were making for you and could have made another choice, but really decided to

00:04:32.920 do this because they love you. So it's just, it's a lot more meaningful. Well, it seems obvious. And

00:04:37.180 I think that we actually could talk about that for 30 minutes because I was thinking about this

00:04:41.480 yesterday. I feel like the elevation of the status of animals and the kind of like degradation of the

00:04:47.780 status of, of children and a lot of human beings, especially those that you disagree with

00:04:52.120 says a lot about the moral status of where we are as a society right now, that we are exchanging

00:04:58.480 the values of things and people. And it probably speaks to how like hyper individualized we are

00:05:06.540 and just how little we actually interact with other people that we don't even see. We don't even see

00:05:12.300 the inherent value of people, but could probably keep going on that. Yeah. Well, I think it speaks to

00:05:18.160 that. And it also speaks to the thing people like about pets is that pets, or at least dogs,

00:05:21.860 anyway, is that, you know, dog is, it's all about you. Like the dog wants nothing more than to be

00:05:27.100 around you and waiting for you to come home and he's fawning all over you. And people that like

00:05:31.460 dogs more than humans, what they're really saying is I want humans to do that for me. And humans

00:05:35.720 refuse to because humans have their own lives and their own interior existence. And so, you know,

00:05:41.160 I think that's, I think it's, it's sort of a self-centered thing really. Yeah. No emotional

00:05:44.480 sacrifice is required for loving your dog. Okay. So let's talk about some things that probably

00:05:50.480 matter just a little bit more than dogs and watermelons and cargo shorts. Although I do

00:05:55.520 think that that's very important. I want to talk to you about Catholicism because even though you

00:05:59.340 and I probably agree a lot, even on religious matters, there are distinct differences between

00:06:04.860 what you believe and what I believe. Some of which we've talked about on Twitter, but a lot of which

00:06:09.580 we've probably never discussed before. So I kind of want to hear in your words, what do you think

00:06:13.580 the biggest differences are between what you as a Catholic believe and what a Protestant believes?

00:06:20.900 Biggest difference as well? I mean, I don't know. The most obvious one is, is the status of the

00:06:26.280 church that what we call the church, the Catholic church. I mean, that of course is the obvious

00:06:30.720 one. And I go there because there are other differences. I'm just going to assume that a lot

00:06:36.180 of the people listening don't know anything about Catholicism. So what do you mean by the status of the

00:06:40.620 church? Well, the Catholic church. Now, a Catholic believes that, you know, what we call the church

00:06:46.120 and what someone outside would just call the Catholic church, what we believe is that the

00:06:52.840 Catholic church has a historical claim to being the church that Christ founded. And if you were to take

00:06:58.560 the Catholic church and just trace its history back year by year by year for 2,000 years, you're going

00:07:04.160 to get all the way to Jesus Christ. So I would think that that is the, really the main bone of

00:07:11.140 contention. I think there are other things that we consider differences between Protestants and Catholics

00:07:14.800 that I think sometimes just come down to a miscommunication, like things like work,

00:07:19.040 faith versus works, you know. I actually think that when you sit down and talk to somebody,

00:07:25.080 there's not as much of a difference there as maybe we think. I think maybe sometimes we're just

00:07:30.420 using different language to say the same sort of thing there. Well, that's what I want to talk to

00:07:35.120 you about because in my mind, that's really the biggest thing is this, you know, for Protestants,

00:07:40.560 we've got the five solas. Yes, we have sola scriptura. We have Christ alone, by grace through

00:07:47.460 faith alone, if to deviate from the actual sola because I always get the end of them wrong. But I

00:07:54.820 think the biggest thing that we probably disagree on is the by grace through faith, or at least

00:08:00.360 it feels that way. But you might be right. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, and I just kind

00:08:04.920 of want to work that out with you. So describe to me what you think justification or what you believe

00:08:11.120 justification in Christ means. So in other words, like how is someone made right before God?

00:08:18.140 Well, I think it does come down to faith, and I prefer to use the word faith than belief. Another

00:08:23.840 problem is that we use those words interchangeably. I would argue that they are not interchangeable.

00:08:28.480 They are sort of two different things. Or I should say, maybe it'd be easier to say that,

00:08:32.680 more accurate to say that belief is one of the starting points for faith. You can't have faith

00:08:38.720 unless you believe, but that's not the whole story. So, you know, maybe it's a difference between

00:08:44.060 sort of believing in and believing that. So I could believe that aliens exist. That's just me assenting to

00:08:50.260 what I believe to be a possible fact. And I think if you believe in God in that sense,

00:08:56.960 and that you think he exists, and you assent to that reality just intellectually, well, that's a

00:09:05.260 good starting point. I mean, you need that at least, but that's not enough. You haven't actually

00:09:10.300 put your faith in God in that case. You're simply just saying, yeah, sure, he exists. And I think,

00:09:15.600 and even with Christ's saving sacrifice and everything you read in the Gospels, it's not enough

00:09:20.180 to just say, yes, I believe that's true, and then go about your day. So that's what I, that sort of

00:09:27.540 belief. And then faith is an actual living of that belief. You're living out that belief. You're living

00:09:37.080 according to it. You're living in it. You're living by it. You know, any word you want to use.

00:09:42.400 So it's all about living. And that's going to include what you do, which doesn't mean that you

00:09:48.340 get to heaven by giving X amount to charity. It just means that, you know, believing in God means

00:09:54.240 also with your whole body and your whole self, it also includes your actions, of course, and it

00:09:59.140 includes your mind and your heart and everything else. Yeah. And I think that we would agree on that

00:10:04.620 is that it's not just faith that, faith that God exists, like you said, that's not enough. It's not

00:10:10.720 just belief in, it is faith that he exists, faith in God, and that faith that he exists and faith in

00:10:18.260 God does manifest itself, um, throughout your life. Like James says, works are faith without works is

00:10:24.640 dead. And so he says, show me a man with faith without works. And I'll show you a man with works

00:10:29.680 without faith. It doesn't work. Basically, you can't have one really without the other, neither saves

00:10:34.640 you. I think the, I don't know if it's a disagreement or just a misunderstanding that we

00:10:39.280 have between Protestants and Catholics, but Protestants certainly have the belief, even since

00:10:43.520 the Council of Trent, that, uh, that Catholics believe that the sacraments are necessary for

00:10:50.260 salvation, that baptism is necessary for salvation. And that in order for God's grace to be manifested in

00:10:57.000 your life, uh, you have to do certain things in order to prove your worth or prove yourself worthy of

00:11:03.300 salvation. And that's where a Protestant would say, well, no, that's not what the Bible says.

00:11:07.540 Would you say that's an accurate kind of division between the churches or just a matter of semantics?

00:11:14.240 Well, I certainly wouldn't say that the sacraments are semantics. Um, and that is what I, you know,

00:11:18.760 I talked about the sort of the main difference being the church. And I would, I would include,

00:11:23.600 you know, I'm not obviously just talking about the building there. I'm talking about the church itself

00:11:26.520 and everything you get from it, which would include the sacraments. So, uh, from a Catholic

00:11:30.780 perspective, no, I wouldn't say that it's a matter of semantics. Um, we do believe the sacraments

00:11:35.700 are necessary, but I'll add a couple of caveats there. Number one, um, you know, not, not all of

00:11:42.980 the sacraments, like you don't have to get married, for instance. Uh, but you don't have to become a

00:11:46.940 priest. Right. Right. That's obvious. And it's also not, so a sacrament is not really something you,

00:11:53.760 it's not about what you do. It's something that you're, it's about something God does within you,

00:11:57.740 uh, something that you receive. Now it does obviously include your own actions and, and,

00:12:02.500 uh, your own will, especially with something like marriage, but it's all about God working within

00:12:07.380 you. Um, now, but you know, if, if a Catholic were to say, well, uh, we believe that, you know,

00:12:13.280 every person who's never received the sacraments is going to hell. Uh, that's a Catholic who's

00:12:17.680 saying way more than I think he's really able to say, because that's, I don't believe that. Um, and

00:12:23.140 this is, you know, it's maybe a whole different discussion, but discussion I've been having over the

00:12:26.580 last couple of weeks is, you know, how exactly does a person end up in hell? Um, how does that

00:12:31.180 work exactly? And, uh, and then there's, so that's a much more complex subject. Um, well,

00:12:37.100 I would like to hear what you think about that, because I do think that it goes hand in hand with,

00:12:40.800 with justification. And I think that a Protestant would say, at least most Protestants would say,

00:12:46.320 the cat or the, uh, the traditional Protestant belief is that yes, uh, communion is an important

00:12:52.160 thing to do. Baptism is an important thing to do. These are signals or symbols of a regeneration

00:12:57.880 of the heart that the Holy spirit did inside of you, but they're not necessary for salvation.

00:13:03.060 We believe it's, you know, by grace alone through faith alone, which yes, does manifest itself in

00:13:09.560 good works and having the fruit of the spirit. As Jesus said, a tree is known by its fruit, but it

00:13:15.540 doesn't earn you salvation. And that's what I was talking about semantics. Not that the,

00:13:20.060 not that the sacraments are semantics, but is it just a matter of semantics in that I am saying

00:13:26.740 something that's different, or it sounds like I'm saying something that's different than you,

00:13:30.220 but essentially we are saying the same thing. Or do you believe that communion and baptism

00:13:34.700 are necessary for salvation? Yeah, well, it is, it's, it's certainly a crucial,

00:13:40.360 it's certainly a crucial distinction. I wouldn't, I wouldn't use the word earn, like it earns you

00:13:44.380 heaven. Um, uh, because again, that, that puts way too much of the emphasis

00:13:49.480 on the individual rather than what God is doing within us. Yeah. Um, so something like baptism.

00:13:56.900 Yeah, I do believe that, and it is a Catholic belief that you need to be baptized to go to

00:14:01.220 heaven. Now, um, that raises a lot of questions, right? Like what about babies who died before

00:14:06.300 bad? What about aborted babies? What about people who die, you know, never, never had the opportunity

00:14:10.420 people that died, you know, in the Americas in the year 900 before anyone ever even told them

00:14:14.780 about the gospel. Yeah. Um, are all those people going to hell? Now the first answer is none of us

00:14:20.100 can say for sure where anybody goes because we're not God, right? Um, it's my personal belief and it

00:14:25.740 is just my belief and it's a belief consistent with Catholicism. Um, that, you know, there are

00:14:32.680 different forms of baptism and, uh, there is nothing that would preclude God from performing some sort of

00:14:38.360 kind of spiritual baptism, uh, at the moment of death or, or in the moment after death. I mean,

00:14:43.200 I think that these are all possibilities. And, um, so when we talk about baptism being necessary

00:14:50.040 for salvation, that doesn't mean that we're saying that every single person who didn't have the actual

00:14:55.760 water poured over their head is in hell now. Uh, I don't, I'm certainly not saying that that's not

00:15:00.860 something that Catholics are required to say by Catholic teaching. And I don't think that's

00:15:04.000 something most Catholics believe. And I think that's an important thing to explain. I, that's

00:15:08.420 certainly something that I didn't understand, uh, from a Protestant perspective, because I think

00:15:14.200 when we read the catechism or when we look at the sacrament, it seems like, okay, well, these are the

00:15:19.220 things that you have to do to be saved. And from an outside perspective, it does seem like, okay, well,

00:15:23.660 even if you don't really have faith, but you go through these seven steps, or like you said,

00:15:28.080 not all the seven steps would necessarily be required, but you have to show all of these outward signs

00:15:33.200 of salvation in order to be saved. And that would be against scripture. But what you're saying is

00:15:38.200 that that's one, not how you guys see sacraments. And two, um, it's not just, it's not always the

00:15:46.200 outward symbol. It is more about the spiritual regeneration that happens when God baptizes

00:15:52.440 someone, whether it is by water or by spirit. But of course it's better that that person is baptized

00:15:57.480 by water, which I think Baptists would agree with too. Right? Yeah. Well, and we're dealing with

00:16:02.720 mysteries here. I mean, there is something, uh, I believe significant and real about the,

00:16:09.240 the water and baptism. Uh, there's something real going on there. Uh, can I explain exactly what that

00:16:15.900 is? No, I can't. Um, just like, uh, you know, when, when Jesus healed the blind man by, you know,

00:16:23.760 spitting on his hand and rubbing mud on the blind man's face. I don't think that that was just theatrics.

00:16:29.780 Uh, I don't think that Jesus ever engaged in just empty theatrics. I think there was something real

00:16:34.920 there. Uh, how does that work? I mean, why did he need mud to heal the blind man? I suppose he

00:16:40.460 didn't need it, but that's, he chose, he thought that was the most proper way to do it. Why? I don't

00:16:45.740 know. But, but that, that apparently is the case. So there is something to these kinds of physical

00:16:50.400 substances. It's not entirely symbolic, but that also, but it's also not, not strictly speaking

00:16:56.140 necessary as far as God's concerned, because God is all powerful. So how do you, yes. So how do you

00:17:02.880 think someone ends up not being saved or going to hell? Well, um, yeah, that's, it's obviously a big,

00:17:11.280 a big question. Um, the ultimate, most simple answer is that you end up in hell by rejecting God. Um,

00:17:21.440 that's the, you know, that's sort of like the one sentence answer, right. That I think everybody would

00:17:25.760 basically give, uh, then the follow-up question is, but what does that entail? Um, and is it

00:17:33.940 possible for someone now we know that Jesus says, uh, you know, no one gets to the father, but through

00:17:39.200 me. So that's very clear. The question is, is it possible for someone to get to the father through

00:17:46.280 Christ without being consciously aware that that's what they're doing? And another way of phrasing

00:17:51.920 that is, can, can Jesus allow someone to the father through him, even if that person wasn't

00:17:58.120 consciously aware of it? And, uh, and I would say certainly in some cases, I absolutely believe that

00:18:03.560 is the case going back to, you know, babies who die, you know, they, they obviously couldn't have

00:18:07.700 had conscious faith. Do I think that God sends every single baby to hell? Absolutely not. I don't

00:18:12.600 believe in a God that sends baby to be babies to be tortured for all eternity. Um, so if we're willing

00:18:18.020 to allow for that or, or consider that possibility, then it opens it up to other things. What about

00:18:24.400 someone who never really had the gospel preached to them and what really wasn't aware of it? What

00:18:30.480 about them? And, you know, so you start looking at all these hypotheticals, the overall answer is,

00:18:34.800 I don't know exactly, right. Who, who goes and who doesn't. Um, but I do know that God is all

00:18:39.920 powerful and he's all merciful. And that means something. Um, and I don't think that anyone

00:18:46.520 goes to hell on a technicality, uh, that I'm, that I'm pretty sure of. Yeah. So I think that we,

00:18:52.460 I think that we mostly agree. I think so. Obviously, if we agree that it's only through Christ that

00:18:58.500 someone can be saved, that it's not that, okay, they espouse that there's another God or there's

00:19:04.160 another Messiah and they're just living pretty moral lives, but they reject the God of the Bible.

00:19:08.680 They reject that Jesus is the savior and the great reconciler and still make it there.

00:19:13.540 Um, I obviously don't believe that. I believe that it's only through Jesus. C.S. Lewis did make

00:19:17.800 this argument that, okay, is it possible for someone, you know, in the Congo, who's never heard

00:19:23.180 the name of Jesus? Is it possible for him to somehow understand through the mysterious power of the Holy

00:19:30.360 Spirit that Jesus, whether or not he knew the name of Jesus to be reconciled to God through Jesus,

00:19:37.540 the great reconciler? And maybe we don't know the answer of that. I, to that, I do think that we go

00:19:42.960 back to the fact that it is Jesus, no matter what. And I agree with you on, um, on babies. And John

00:19:49.720 Piper does a lot of Protestants do as well. We of course believe that babies, that all people are

00:19:55.300 contributors to original sin and that they're not necessarily innocent, but that because they don't

00:20:00.880 have the capacity or the capabilities to be able to understand anything about faith, that there is

00:20:07.220 mercy extended to them. But that at the end of time, when every knee bows and every tongue confesses

00:20:12.740 that Jesus Christ is Lord, that that will be a reconciliation for them as well. Um, so I think

00:20:19.600 that we probably agree on that aspect. Would you say? Uh, yeah, I think we, I mean, I, I could line up

00:20:26.520 with, with most of what you just said there. Um, I think now one thing I, on, on my show,

00:20:32.360 what I've been talking about the last few weeks is this idea of, uh, maybe we, I don't know if you

00:20:36.260 and I talked about this on Twitter or not. Um, the question of, and I know with this, I'm, I'm sort

00:20:42.280 of going a little bit further than a lot of people are willing to go, but it's a question anyway. And

00:20:46.560 that is, uh, if, if, if hell is the absence of love, um, well, hell is the absence of God,

00:20:53.900 then it is the absence of love. Right. And if that's the case, then can someone who truly had

00:21:00.640 love in their heart, uh, can someone like that even go to hell? Um, because if they can, then

00:21:06.940 wouldn't that be to say that there can be love in hell? And doesn't that open up a whole can of

00:21:11.420 theological worms? It also kind of reshapes our whole idea of hell. Now, if we say that, no, a

00:21:16.500 person with love cannot go to hell because love is the absence of hell. And so love simply cannot

00:21:20.800 exist. That's what C S Lewis thought that love essentially is just too big in a, in a,

00:21:24.980 in a way for, to, to, to fit in hell. Um, but if that's the case, then what about someone

00:21:30.660 who, uh, who did not, who was preached the gospel said, they don't believe it yet really

00:21:38.180 did love their children really did love them sacrificially love them just like you and I

00:21:42.840 love our children, um, or your child that's on the way. Um, can that person go to hell?

00:21:49.200 And, and, and, you know, that's at first maybe seems like an easier question than it really

00:21:52.720 is when you stop and think about it. Uh, it's, it's, there's not such an easy answer to that

00:21:56.720 question. I don't know what the answer is. I, well, maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm not fully

00:22:01.640 tracking with you. I don't really see the question in that from a biblical perspective. I think it's

00:22:07.980 a gift of common grace that people, people both in and outside of Christianity can be moral

00:22:14.180 people. They can follow the law of God without even knowing they're following the law of God,

00:22:18.220 just in the same way that you could be pro-life, uh, without saying that you're a Christian,

00:22:23.080 just because you understand innately somehow the innocent life should be protected.

00:22:28.060 But that person without Christ being good enough or being loving towards someone, which I do think

00:22:34.660 that you can be, if you're not a Christian and reject Jesus, I don't think that's enough to get

00:22:39.440 you to heaven because the Bible says that our righteousness is as filthy rags. And so I think

00:22:44.540 someone can live a very morally pristine life on earth, but if they reject the gospel or I'm,

00:22:50.160 I mean, I'm a Calvinist. And so we don't necessarily use those exact terms, but if that person is not

00:22:55.540 saved, then no, they're not going to get to heaven. So I don't really see the interesting part of that

00:23:01.320 argument. Uh, so do you think that love can exist in hell? No, because it is the absence of God.

00:23:09.160 But I think that in hell, because it's the separation of God, it's not the, it's not the

00:23:14.220 same as life on earth, life on earth. You are under the common grace of God, which means that

00:23:19.240 even Saddam Hussein probably enjoyed fine wine and good food. There are beauty, there's beauty in the

00:23:26.300 world that all of us get to experience, whether we are Christians or not. And part of that is

00:23:31.800 romantic love. Part of that is paternal and maternal love. Um, and in hell, we don't get to enjoy that

00:23:37.440 common grace. We're outside of the common grace of God. And so everything good that believers and

00:23:42.780 non-believers got to experience on earth is no longer going to be in hell. But to me, that doesn't

00:23:48.120 mean anything about whether or not a loving person on earth will end up in hell or not.

00:23:53.440 Yeah. Well, certainly, uh, emotional affection. I'm not talking about that. You know, if you,

00:23:58.180 things that you enjoy, the fact that you had a capacity to enjoy things like that's got, yeah,

00:24:02.000 that's, there's no problem there. Uh, because you could be just a totally spiritually dead,

00:24:05.980 evil person and still enjoy, as you said, wine or chocolate or whatever. Um, but I'm, I'm talking

00:24:11.700 about sacrificial, real human love between, between people now. So the question is if love

00:24:17.500 cannot exist in hell, which seems like we agree. And then you have someone who, again, uh, really

00:24:23.520 let's take me, for example, I hate to use myself as an example, but let's say that I reject Jesus and,

00:24:28.440 um, and, uh, but I really love my family and I do, and then I die. Uh, so I'm going to hell.

00:24:34.140 Okay. Well, so what happened to that love I have for my children? Does God remove that from me?

00:24:38.680 It was like some sort of spiritual surgery where he cuts off the love so he could throw the rest

00:24:42.960 of me in hell. Well, I think everything good that you got to experience on earth, which is

00:24:47.380 love with your family will no longer be there. You are, um, in hell. If everything is separated from

00:24:55.400 God, then we are enjoying, or we are enduring the worst parts of ourselves, the worst parts of our

00:25:01.260 universe, worse than we could ever imagine for all of eternity. And I think love is a gift of

00:25:07.320 common grace is what we call it. It's common grace. So even unbelievers can feel that kind of

00:25:13.500 maternal or romantic love, whatever it is, even selfless love towards someone. And yeah, that's,

00:25:19.800 that's not saving love. Well, but, but love, you're, you're talking about love as if it's an

00:25:25.500 external thing or love is a, is an internal thing. So, uh, I mean, it's, it's easy to say,

00:25:31.280 well, yeah, I won't have the love in hell, but then how, I mean, what, what happened to it?

00:25:35.280 And, and now, now I'm in hell, let's say it's me in hell. So I'm still me. Do I, do I not remember

00:25:41.260 my kids anymore? Am I not? Is it just, it has, has some sort of spiritual lobotomy taken place so

00:25:46.620 that I can no longer conjure that experience of love anymore?

00:25:50.740 Well, when we go to heaven, we no longer struggle with, we no longer struggle with sin. We know that

00:25:55.280 there's not going to be any sorrow. There's not going to be any jealousy. There's not going to be

00:25:58.400 in strife, any strife once we go to heaven. And so if heaven and hell are outside of time and space,

00:26:04.720 and this spiritual thing happens when we go to heaven to where I'm no longer going to look on

00:26:10.480 the internet and compare myself to someone, I'm no longer going to struggle with sin. I'm never

00:26:13.900 going to wonder again, uh, or I'm never going to have regret. I'm never going to have sadness again.

00:26:18.880 I'm still the same person, but I become new. I am a spiritual being. And we, I mean,

00:26:24.380 you could talk about eschatology and all of that. When I'm in heaven, it's the same thing.

00:26:28.800 When I go to hell, the things that were good are removed just as when I go to heaven,

00:26:32.880 the things that were bad are removed. And it's much more magnificent and eternal than that.

00:26:37.080 But in simplistic terms, I do think that that's basically what happens.

00:26:41.380 Yeah. And that's as far as the process into heaven, the process of going up and shedding those

00:26:46.700 things that you're talking about that I don't struggle with that. That makes, it makes plenty

00:26:51.240 of sense. Um, because those are the parts of you that are not even real. I mean, those are just,

00:26:57.160 those are such small, petty, uh, just baggage that you, that we all carry around. And so being able

00:27:03.820 to drop those and being, you know, leaving that load behind, um, through God's grace. Well, that,

00:27:09.820 that just makes a lot of sense, but now going in the other direction though, heading South, um,

00:27:16.780 this love, it's the most real thing you have is the most real and beautiful thing that you ever had

00:27:21.420 in your life. And so what we're saying here is that God will take that so that, so that the rest

00:27:27.280 of you can go to hell. Now, C.S. Lewis's idea was that God's not going to do that. God's not going to,

00:27:32.460 he's not going to, he's not going to get rid of the good so he can salvage the bad so that it can be

00:27:37.400 tortured forever in hell. No, if there's a good there, he's going to seize onto that desperately.

00:27:42.220 And like a little ember, if you just have that little ember, he will blow that into a fire in

00:27:47.480 a good way. But to me, that just sounds so relativistic. Why even be a Christian? Why be

00:27:52.760 a Christian? Why deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Christ? Why believe anything that the

00:27:57.680 Bible says, if all you have to do is just love your husband really well? I mean, that sounds great.

00:28:02.920 I have a lot more time on Sundays. I don't, first of all, I don't, I don't think it's relativistic. I mean,

00:28:07.540 it is because I am, I'm not talking about love in your own way, or, you know, we all get to define

00:28:11.940 our own love. No. And I do think that, listen, I'm also not envisioning a scenario where basically

00:28:17.560 everyone's in heaven because, hey, everyone loves someone. I don't think that's true. I think

00:28:21.360 actually that even if I'm right about what I'm saying here, and maybe I'm not, I could easily

00:28:25.900 not be. But even if, even if this is the case, there are probably still a lot of people in hell,

00:28:30.080 because I think actually a lot of people never love anyone in their life. And they feel like they do.

00:28:35.100 They have emotional affection and so on. There are a lot of people who don't love their own kids.

00:28:39.060 That's very clear to me. So, you know, that, that, that all, you know, that's, there's no problem

00:28:45.280 there, but I'm talking about the, a real actual sacrificial love. And I don't, I don't think it's

00:28:52.140 relativistic. I mean, it does. Yes, it does raise questions like the ones you're, you're, you're

00:28:55.320 bringing up about, well, what's the point of this and that. And I don't think it makes it pointless.

00:28:59.480 I can't answer those questions for sure, but I do know that, that, you know, with your,

00:29:05.560 with your way of looking at it, there are also some really, really difficult questions. Like,

00:29:10.520 you know, here's an example I gave a few days ago, just, you know, I don't mean to make this

00:29:14.240 an emotional argument, but just one example of sacrificial love of someone who's not a Christian

00:29:19.440 and who almost certainly knew about Christianity, but rejected it consciously. I read a story about a

00:29:24.120 woman at Auschwitz, okay. A Jewish mother who, whose children were being sent to the gas chambers

00:29:29.740 and she was going to be sent to a labor camp so that, you know, cause she was healthy and young

00:29:33.580 and she could have survived. She chose to go to the gas chamber with her children so that she could

00:29:39.880 comfort them in those, their, their final moments of life. It wasn't suicide. She just, it, it,

00:29:44.440 their, you know, being there to, to, to, to give them comfort in those moments meant so much to her

00:29:50.340 that she would give up the rest of her life just for those moments. Now that is pure sacrificial

00:29:56.300 love. Uh, I mean, maternal love, that is the realist thing in that woman's life. And so are we

00:30:05.140 willing to say for sure that that woman who gave up her life for her children was then sent to hell

00:30:09.540 for all eternity, along with all the other Jews in the Holocaust, by the way. Um, and that the Nazis

00:30:14.880 who killed them, if those Nazis, some of them were Christian, some of them really were Christian.

00:30:19.000 So there were, there, we're, we're dealing with a scenario where almost all the Jewish Jews who

00:30:23.380 died in the Holocaust went to hell while a lot of the Nazis went to heaven. Now I, I'm, I just can't

00:30:31.700 sign on to being certain of that being the case. And I think that it's very, very possible that that's

00:30:37.280 not the case. Okay. Here's what I would say. Number one with Jews, I know that, I don't know,

00:30:43.380 you probably agree with Romans nine through 11 that talks about the full inclusion of the Jews

00:30:48.880 at the end of time, that God does have a very specific plan for the Jewish people, uh, that is

00:30:54.460 different than the plan that he has for other people. And that the hope that Paul has is that

00:30:59.480 they will all come to know Christ. Uh, maybe not in this life, but depending on your view of

00:31:04.080 eschatology, that there will be a full inclusion of Israel at some point, but it will have to be

00:31:09.320 through Jesus Christ. But the problem with the argument of saying, well, okay, this woman showed

00:31:14.880 sacrificial love, which I agree that is Christ-like love. Uh, but the problem with saying that that

00:31:20.240 is now the standard for salvation is that you take Jesus out of the equation is that you say,

00:31:25.260 okay, well, it, it no longer matters what Jesus did for us. As long as a Muslim, which I think that

00:31:30.360 a Muslim could probably demonstrate the same kind of state of self-sacrificial love. Are you going to

00:31:35.980 say that? Okay. Well, it's totally fine to be a Muslim. It's fine to be a Buddhist. You're going to

00:31:40.460 find your way to heaven because you truly loved someone. And I would not say though, that the

00:31:45.500 Nazis were saved just because they were nominally Christians. We both agree with the fact that a tree

00:31:49.860 is known by its fruits. And if someone is an evil murderer, I mean, the Bible says, if you hate someone

00:31:55.860 in your heart, then you are a murderer. That's how serious Jesus took sin seriously. Um, and so I,

00:32:01.840 I wouldn't say that the Nazis who are killing Jews, even though they might've professed Christianity

00:32:06.440 were true Christians. And I believe that they are probably in hell, although we probably agree

00:32:11.040 that we can't ultimately say where people end up, we'd probably agree that they're not true

00:32:15.040 Christians. But I just don't think changing the standard from what the Bible says is, is required

00:32:21.480 for salvation, which is faith in Jesus Christ to self-sacrifice. It just doesn't line up with

00:32:27.360 Christianity. It lines up with relativism. It doesn't line up with the Bible.

00:32:30.700 Well, again, I don't, I don't think, I don't think love is, is, is relativistic at all. I think

00:32:36.340 it's the least relativistic thing in the world. As far, I mean, as far as the Nazis go, yeah,

00:32:39.700 Nazism itself is not, despite what atheists try to claim is, was not a Christian, uh, phenomenon or

00:32:45.040 invention is an atheist one. Although, although, I mean, there were plenty of Nazis who I think were

00:32:51.900 Christian, um, not, not good people, but we're Christian in any, in any case. Um, so I think,

00:32:58.500 well, you know, what I'm talking about here is, and I, and I, and I would say this regardless of

00:33:04.420 this particular aspect of the conversation, that, uh, the ultimate point in life is, is love. I mean,

00:33:11.380 that is St. Paul says that love is the greatest thing. St. Paul puts love above faith. Um, Jesus

00:33:18.120 says, you know, greater love has no, has no man than this, than he give up his life for his friends.

00:33:22.780 So Jesus would have said that that woman who I mentioned, you know, she had the greatest love,

00:33:26.640 not just any love. She had the greatest love because she gave up her life for her, not just

00:33:29.920 her friends, but her children. So, uh, from, for me, I've, I've always believed, and I think that

00:33:34.560 this is what we get from the gospel, that it's, it's, it's about love. Love is the point. It's not,

00:33:38.520 not relativistic. It's not, it's not emotional attachment. It's not affection, but love,

00:33:42.720 self-sacrificing love. I think it was St. Augustine who said, I believe it was St. Augustine who said,

00:33:46.960 um, or one of the church fathers who said, you know, that basically love and do what you will.

00:33:52.800 And that's, that's, that's, that's the, that's the point of life. That's how you live a good life

00:33:56.980 is love and do what you will. According to that love, as long as it's really love, you're not

00:34:00.980 going to go wrong. You can't possibly go wrong. Um, and God is love. So anytime someone is truly

00:34:06.180 loving, uh, they, they are experiencing that love. They are partaking in that love through God,

00:34:12.740 whether they know it or not, they still are. So, you know, I don't, I don't see this as, you know,

00:34:18.720 getting anyone off the hook or this is some sort of dreary vision of life. I think you can have any

00:34:23.540 faith that you want to, unless you would say that, unless you would say that a Muslim person is

00:34:28.620 incapable of self-sacrificial love. No, I don't think that at all. So you think it's, so you think

00:34:35.280 Muslims will go to heaven just the same as Christians if they have this self-sacrificial love?

00:34:40.560 Uh, well, what I'm talking about is relativistic. What I'm, no, it's not relativistic because it'd be

00:34:46.460 relativistic if I was saying that I get to decide who goes to heaven. I don't decide.

00:34:51.180 Uh, I know that God decides, right? So. Yeah. His objective standard is Jesus Christ, not,

00:34:57.460 oh, did this person, did they really self-sacrificially love? Well, they never had

00:35:01.440 to go into a gas chamber, but I mean, they really loved, it's just, it becomes this really weird thing

00:35:08.340 of, okay, well, what is love? What constitutes self-sacrificial love? Why did God send Jesus to

00:35:15.380 die a bloody, gruesome death on the cross and then rise again three days later, if all he really

00:35:20.600 cared about was that we were self-sacrificial in our love? Why did he have to die? Why couldn't he

00:35:26.020 have just come and said, Hey, just be really loving. You don't have to believe that I'm the son of God.

00:35:31.260 You don't have to call upon my name. It's fine. Just love really well, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever,

00:35:38.980 and then you'll be good. But that's not what the Bible says.

00:35:41.120 Well, first of all, it is, it is difficult for us to discern, you know, who has self-sacrificial

00:35:46.660 love, who doesn't, so on and so forth, which is why it's good that we're not the ones discerning it.

00:35:50.480 That would be up to God, not us. I mean, I can't sit here and say who's loving and who isn't. I mean,

00:35:55.400 I can, I can have a good educated guess on some people based on how they behaved, but I could

00:36:00.580 possibly be wrong on those two. Like the one example I gave, but I guess what I'm saying is that I'm,

00:36:06.420 what I'm, what I can't sit here and do is say that God could not let such and such type of person

00:36:14.960 into heaven. Um, even Muslim, atheist, whatever. I, I'm not gonna sit here and say God couldn't do

00:36:20.500 that. Uh, uh, do you think God couldn't do that? Well, it's not a matter of couldn't or could,

00:36:25.680 it's a matter of wouldn't or would. And I think the Bible makes very clear the only intercessor to

00:36:33.420 God, the only reconciler, the only one that makes holy. Um, if our, if our righteousness is as filthy

00:36:40.600 rags as the Bible says, and the only one that can impute his righteousness upon us and can make us

00:36:46.920 holy and make us acceptable before God is Jesus, then I just don't see how self-sacrifice, which a

00:36:54.700 lot of non-believers I think have probably demonstrated throughout history is sufficient

00:36:58.920 for salvation. I just don't see the evidence for that in scripture. Well, uh, but do you feel that

00:37:07.020 you can, that you can really speak to what God would or wouldn't do for sure? Well, I think that

00:37:11.780 the Bible speaks to that. I certainly don't, but the Bible certainly says over and over again, that it is

00:37:16.600 by grace through faith, that it is only Jesus. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. He gave us

00:37:22.100 his righteousness that we might be called righteous to God. And the Bible says so that no one can boast.

00:37:28.980 That is why Jesus gave us his righteousness. It wasn't of our own doing. It was his work,

00:37:34.220 which I think you would probably agree with, but Jesus is essential, is crucial, is the exclusive

00:37:41.500 way to the father. I am the only way, the only truth, the only life. No one can come to the father

00:37:47.220 except through me, not the Muslim who is self-sacrificial, not the person who is an atheist

00:37:53.040 and self-sacrificial. No one can come to the father except through me. So I just don't see a

00:37:58.460 theological way around it. I think you added some qualifiers on there that aren't, that, you know,

00:38:02.160 I mean, that's obviously you're paraphrasing the scripture there. Uh, I mean, he, he, yes,

00:38:06.740 no one can come to the father except through me. What he doesn't say there is that every single,

00:38:11.060 by the way, every single person who comes through me is consciously aware of it while they're living.

00:38:15.740 And that, that's, that's the part that's not in there. Right. And so that's the question is it,

00:38:20.480 does it, does it always necessarily require being consciously aware? Uh, I mean, you sidestep the,

00:38:26.760 the Jewish Holocaust question here a little bit because you said, well, maybe, you know,

00:38:30.700 maybe in that case it could work somehow. Um, which seems like you're allowing for the possibility

00:38:35.360 that, that, that maybe there are people who aren't consciously aware and still go to heaven. And so

00:38:40.100 that's all I'm saying. If it's a possibility, then it's a possibility. I think it is. And, uh,

00:38:44.640 and so that's an interesting possibility. My, and I can, from there, I can't, I can say no more than

00:38:49.340 that. Um, but I think there are two different questions. I think that there are two different

00:38:52.620 questions. We might, I might be able to say that there's a possibility that I might, I'm not sure.

00:39:00.660 I'd have to think about it a little bit more. And the, the example that I gave of someone in the

00:39:05.720 Congo. Okay. Could they know that Jesus is their savior without knowing the name of Jesus,

00:39:09.980 without ever reading the book of Ephesians, whatever it is, could they still be saved?

00:39:14.500 Because the Bible does say that man is without excuse because God has displayed his divine

00:39:19.220 attributes throughout creation. And so all men are without excuse, the Bible says. So it might be

00:39:25.360 possible. I don't know, in the context of that verse for someone in the Congo, who has never heard

00:39:29.740 the gospel to somehow intrinsically understand the gospel. That's one thing. The other thing is to say

00:39:35.920 that people who have heard the gospel and who have rejected the gospel, but still show self-sacrificial

00:39:41.940 love, that those people are going to be saved. I just don't see how you square that.

00:39:47.580 Well, yeah, but that's, but I mean, the problem there is, is you're still allowing for exceptions

00:39:52.580 under, under the assumption that, well, maybe someone in the Congo could have, could have inherently

00:39:56.560 known the gospel. Well, I can tell you right now for sure that, um, every single person who lived in,

00:40:01.440 in the Americas prior to the Europeans showing up here, none of them had any understanding of the

00:40:05.660 gospel whatsoever because that, that's why Jesus said, go out and preach to the nations because

00:40:09.340 they're not going to know unless you tell them. Now we, we have an innate, no, the verse you're

00:40:12.780 talking about of there without excuse. Um, there he's, he's, he's talking about our knowledge of,

00:40:17.880 of God, not of the specific theological doctrines of Christianity. Of course, no one could possibly

00:40:22.420 know that unless you tell them, which is why Christianity didn't exist in the Americas until we

00:40:26.840 brought it there. No one could have possibly known before then. Um, unless they had a personal

00:40:31.500 vision of Jesus Christ and, uh, and we're not aware of that happening prior to, prior to, uh,

00:40:37.040 the Christians showing up. So, uh, and that, that creates a problem. Now, if you, if you want to draw

00:40:42.220 a hard line and say, look, the Bible says you got to have faith in Jesus or you're not making it in,

00:40:47.560 then it seems to me if you're drawing that hard line and look, I can respect that hard line. I,

00:40:51.600 I understand where you, where you get it from in the, in the scripture. I'm not saying it's without

00:40:55.600 basis, but if you're going to draw it, then I think you have to exclude everybody who didn't

00:41:02.300 have faith, including everyone that was in the Americas, everyone in the Congo, all the babies,

00:41:06.860 all of that. You have, you have to exclude everyone, everyone who died in the Holocaust

00:41:09.440 pretty much. Um, if you're, but if you're not going to draw the hard line and you're going to say,

00:41:14.340 yeah, well, look, maybe there's, maybe there's, maybe it's a little more complicated than that.

00:41:18.360 Maybe there's a little bit more to it. Uh, maybe there, maybe there are other ways. Maybe it's

00:41:22.680 possible for someone to live in Christ without knowing it. If you're, if you're allowing for

00:41:27.180 that, which I think we should allow for it. And I do then, uh, then from there, I don't know how

00:41:32.120 you redraw a hard line somewhere else and say, well, yeah, okay. The people in Americas, people

00:41:36.920 in Congo, the babies shore people in Holocaust. Yeah, I bet that, but no, no Muslims, no way, not them.

00:41:41.300 No, at that point, the redrawing of the hard lines doesn't make logical sense to me. So, um,

00:41:47.160 well, no, I don't think that, I don't think that that's my argument. I do believe that God

00:41:50.560 is sovereign. And so I believe that he was sovereign over the Americas before we came.

00:41:55.040 I believe he's sovereign over the Congo. I believe that he's sovereign everywhere. There

00:41:58.140 is not the gospel. And you're right. And the gospel does tell us, or Jesus does tell us to

00:42:02.680 go out and to make disciples of all nations. And there is a verse that says, well, how are they

00:42:06.440 going to know if they're not told? And yet God's sovereign choice still stands. I don't think that

00:42:12.340 he was like, shoot, what am I going to do with these people in the Americas? I believe that

00:42:16.520 everyone who has ever existed has some kind of eternal destination and that God is in control

00:42:21.640 of absolutely all of that. And I could be wrong about babies, but there is a theological argument

00:42:27.240 to be made that yes, babies, because they are without the capacity to understand faith at all,

00:42:33.040 that they will enter into heaven. But that at the end of time, when Jesus comes back again,

00:42:38.540 depending on your eschatological view of pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, all of that,

00:42:44.240 that everyone who enters into the kingdom and is enjoying the new heaven and the new earth

00:42:49.620 will be confessing the name of the Lord, will be confessing Jesus Christ. And so I just,

00:42:58.180 to me, moving the standard to just love takes the important aspect of that away. I do totally get

00:43:05.860 what you're saying that, okay, if we say that there are concessions for certain kinds of people,

00:43:10.240 because they might not know, but there's not concessions for other kinds of people.

00:43:14.240 But I don't think I'm making those concessions. I think everyone has to have a knowledge of Jesus

00:43:19.480 Christ. And I just don't think that that standard is just self-sacrificial love.

00:43:25.260 Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, I get that's your position. I guess we'll just go back and forth. I mean,

00:43:30.400 I think that, um, like I said, it's, it's, you know, if, if you draw, if you draw the really hard

00:43:36.080 line, then, um, you, you, you are consigning a whole lot of people to hell that, uh, I'm not,

00:43:42.660 I'm not consigning anyone. I know, I know that you're not. I'm saying that that point of view

00:43:47.900 would have that effect if it were true. Um, and maybe it is true. I mean, I, I can't say for sure

00:43:53.900 that it isn't, but, uh, but I, I don't think it is. And so what, what I'm trying to do here is,

00:44:00.940 is what I'm looking at, what I guess we agree could be possibly maybe our exceptions, what most

00:44:07.040 Christians believe must be exceptions or could be possibly probably are whatever babies, people

00:44:11.860 that were never told about it, blah, blah, blah. Um, what I'm trying to, what I'm trying to get at

00:44:15.820 is, okay, well then sort of what, what is the over, the overarching thing here? Um, the,

00:44:22.500 the overarching point really. And, um, it, it can't, if, if we're going to include those people,

00:44:29.060 there's a possibility of those people being saved, that it can't just be conscious, aware faith.

00:44:34.560 There's gotta be something else, something higher. And then I look at scripture and I see that, oh,

00:44:39.900 well, St. Paul says what the higher thing is. He says it's love, right? And Jesus says the same

00:44:43.360 thing. So maybe there's something there. And, and, and again, I, I, I don't, I don't know. But,

00:44:49.220 um, what I do know is that love, I'm, I'm talking about, unfortunately, unlike the Greeks, we only

00:44:54.360 have the one word for love. And so it, it, it has taken on a sort of soft connotation.

00:44:59.140 But you're probably talking about like agape love, unconditional love, I'm guessing.

00:45:03.340 Right. Yeah. And so the kind of love that it's, that's no small thing. And, and as I said,

00:45:07.660 there, there are many people who live, I believe, and, uh, and never experience it. And by the way,

00:45:12.940 the flip side of this coin is that, um, you know, the, the people who really do believe in Jesus is

00:45:19.220 but are, but are totally without love and don't even love their own children, just completely

00:45:23.720 self-absorbed human beings. I have no problem seeing those people burning forever in hell.

00:45:27.740 Well, and I don't think that those people are Christians. Jesus said a tree is known by his

00:45:31.460 fruit. And James clearly talks about faith without works is dead. And like you said, Paul says that,

00:45:37.360 you know, it's impossible to love God and hate your brother. Um, I've actually been convicted by that.

00:45:42.460 I was reading a verse that I was reading a quote by Jesus the other day that says,

00:45:46.300 whoever says you fool is, is a murder. Basically. I'm like, how many times have I called AOC a fool?

00:45:53.100 Um, and so it's something for all of us to think about love is important, but to me, it is not, um,

00:46:00.540 it is the fruit of a genuine faith. And so I don't think that you can be a true Christian and not truly

00:46:06.360 love. I just don't think that that's possible. You might say that you're a Christian as the Bible

00:46:10.920 says, not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved. And I probably, I think that probably speaks

00:46:14.960 to a lot of what you're saying. We see in Matthew 25, Jesus says, okay, there's going to be people

00:46:19.340 who I look at you and I say, you never clothed me. You never gave me food. And there's going to be

00:46:24.740 people that I did, but I still think the only standard for salvation is Jesus Christ. And I

00:46:30.120 don't know, we might just agree to disagree on that. Well, I guess the last point I'll make on this

00:46:36.200 is, um, when I was having this argument few, you know, over the last couple of weeks, one thing

00:46:41.280 people brought up to me to try to disprove my argument, which I actually thought, which I

00:46:44.160 actually think lends it credence is, um, is the parable of Lazarus that Jesus gives, you know,

00:46:50.140 of, of, uh, of the rich man going to hell and Lazarus going to heaven. And I guess the point people

00:46:55.140 were trying to make as well, it seemed like that rich guy had some love in his heart because he was

00:46:58.200 concerned about his brothers. And he said, Hey, can you, can you send someone to warn my brother so they

00:47:02.380 don't end up here? And, uh, he was told basically, no, you're, you're SOL on that one. Just paraphrasing.

00:47:07.760 Um, but what, what is it in that parable that sent the rich man to hell? We were not told anything

00:47:18.460 about his faith or his religion or anything. There was, there was nothing about that. He went to hell

00:47:23.340 in Jesus's telling, um, because he had no love for his fellow man. And because he didn't, he was,

00:47:29.500 Lazarus was there starving and he never, never helped him. And, uh, that's why Jesus said he

00:47:34.400 went to hell. He didn't say it's cause he didn't believe in me or he didn't have faith or he was

00:47:37.680 an atheist. Uh, he went to hell because he didn't have love for his fellow man. And I think when you,

00:47:43.160 Jesus says, you know, talks about hell quite a bit, um, sort of the startling transition from the

00:47:47.860 old to new Testament, where in the old Testament, it's not really talked about at all. And when you find

00:47:52.580 him describing hell and the people who end up there, um, it seems like it's always people who

00:48:00.320 didn't have love for their fellow man and, and, and who, who, who didn't, uh, didn't help when it

00:48:05.520 was needed and, and, and all of that, that, that seems like that's what Jesus describes.

00:48:09.100 And I would say that's probably, I would say, yes, that is the signifier of someone who doesn't have

00:48:18.700 faith in Christ. Not always, because I've already talked about common grace. I think it's possible

00:48:22.620 for people of other religions to show self-sacrificial faith, but just because the

00:48:27.500 people who ended up in hell or who didn't spend eternity with God were without love, doesn't mean

00:48:32.460 that love was the qualification to get them to heaven, which is made so evident throughout the

00:48:37.160 new Testament that you are justified by grace through faith in Christ and that there's really

00:48:42.060 no other way. The fruit of that is love and a love. I think that non-Christians can't really know

00:48:48.340 because they don't know the greatest love that was ever shown, which is Jesus dying on the cross

00:48:53.680 for our sins. I don't think they can ever fully know what that love is without really knowing

00:48:58.500 Christ. Um, so I would say it's a fruit of salvation, but it's not, uh, your qualification

00:49:04.760 for salvation. I think that's probably where we differ. Yeah. Well, I mean, I really don't,

00:49:11.380 I don't like to use the terms like qualification anyway, because it, it, you know, it just, it gives

00:49:15.940 it this kind of bureaucratic feel to it. And I, I just don't, I don't think that's how it works.

00:49:21.200 Like I, you know, I, I don't like images that where you, where you, where you imagine God sort

00:49:25.060 of there with a, with a checklist and he's like, no, you didn't have that. You didn't have that box

00:49:29.040 checked. That's why I think that Jesus's death and resurrection is so awesome. Cause he did that

00:49:34.300 for us. Right. I, I, well, and I, and I would agree with you there. Well, here's the last thing I'll

00:49:38.300 say here's maybe a way around it. Um, that some people have suggested and who knows, but you know,

00:49:43.900 it's all theoretical, but, um, who's to say that, uh, you don't, that maybe everyone at the moment

00:49:52.840 of their death or a moment after is given a sort of a final choice, an awakening, a moment of

00:49:59.220 realization. Um, maybe every single person is given that moment, uh, which is what kind of what the

00:50:06.440 great divorce in C.S. Lewis's book is all about in a way. Maybe everyone is, maybe, maybe that's the

00:50:11.640 solution here. That's how you, maybe that's how you deal with all these different, what would seem

00:50:15.540 like outliers. Um, who knows, but, uh, there's, I don't think there's anything in the gospel that

00:50:21.260 would rule that out. Um, so maybe that's it. I don't know. I don't know. I would have to look

00:50:27.660 more theologically into that. I can't say that I agree with that possibility, but I won't rule it

00:50:33.920 out until I study for myself. Um, okay. There's a lot that I still want to talk about, but we should

00:50:39.540 definitely have another conversation because we didn't even get into Calvinism and predestination,

00:50:44.600 which is, I, I know something that you disagree with, correct? Uh, oh yeah. Yeah. I do disagree

00:50:50.820 with that. Yeah. I guess I, I, I took us off on this love thing and, uh, well, we'll have to have

00:50:57.040 another conversation about all of that. Cause I think there's still a lot of theological debates

00:51:01.380 and discussions that are left to have between left to be had between us. Agreed. Well, thank you for

00:51:07.700 taking the time. I really appreciate it. And I'm sure that I will talk to you on Twitter soon.

00:51:13.180 All right, Allie. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 19, 2019

Ep 101 ｜ Matt Walsh

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