Jeremy Carl is a senior fellow at the Claremont Institute, a public policy think tank, and the author of The Unprotected Class: How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart. In this episode, Jeremy talks about his new book, The Antifacist Class, and why he wrote it.
00:12:23.020Well, so I mean, I think there's a few things that you could point to.
00:12:25.860And again, now I'm getting a little more speculative.
00:12:27.740And I'm a very person who likes to deal in facts.
00:12:29.700So I think Obama got bolder once he didn't have to get reelected in terms of some of his racial rhetoric that I didn't find particularly helpful.
00:12:45.040Of course, that didn't actually happen.
00:12:46.800But that rhetoric went kind of haywire.
00:12:50.680There you have Trayvon Martin in Florida and Obama kind of saying, well, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon and kind of jumping in before the facts were known on these cases.
00:13:02.520And so you had a few cases where it really charged bad actors.
00:13:05.600You had the president of the United States, in my view, encouraging bad actors.
00:13:09.140And then there's a whole, you know, there's dark matter here that I'm not even seeing because I don't even think that's sufficient to explain everything we saw.
00:13:16.200But we can definitely see a huge change, and I expect those are some of the things that drove it.
00:13:24.100The demand for quote-unquote racism among political activists continues to increase even as the supply of racism diminishes.
00:13:33.020So what you're talking about there is these activists who are conveying this message that black and brown people are oppressed, white people are the ones who are oppressing them.
00:13:43.380But that just doesn't bear out when you look at how white people view minorities, right?
00:13:52.620And I think where you see this most dramatically, and I write about this a bit in the book, is, again, this is general social survey data, so this is not from some right-wing pollster.
00:14:02.280If you look at kind of how groups view other groups, and they survey whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, everybody has an in-group preference, is what you'd call it.
00:14:16.120Just in the same way that you prefer your mom to some random woman on the street, you're going to generally have some preference for the group that's most looking like you and shares your culture to some other group.
00:14:26.980Conservatives have a little more than liberals.
00:14:28.380But, again, like if you look across the races, across ideologies, it's all kind of like what you'd expect and pretty similar.
00:14:35.220With the one exception, liberal whites.
00:14:37.240Liberal whites have an out-group preference.
00:14:39.500And I've never seen this in any other country's social survey data.
00:14:42.860So liberal whites, I mean, it stands out.
00:14:45.060If you look at a bar chart, it's like so dramatic.
00:14:47.460They think other white people are more criminal, stupider, you know, you kind of name it, down the line, than all other groups.
00:14:53.420So there's a real pathology within liberalism of self-hatred.
00:14:57.880And it's kind of being visited, unfortunately, on the rest of us, particularly among liberal whites, unfortunately.
00:15:03.900You say, actually, what is unusual about America is, in comparison with most other countries, the incredible historical openness of many white Americans to welcoming new groups into the American family.
00:15:15.700So even within, you know, conservative whites and, like other groups, having an in-group preference, which, as you said, is natural, there is still a lot of tolerance, a lot of openness.
00:15:27.520I mean, when you think about all the nationalities, ethnicities, cultures that live in close proximity to each other in America with general peace, that is what is astounding about our country, right?
00:15:40.360And yet we're told that we're actually – America is the outlier in our racism and how much we hate non-white people.
00:15:49.400And if you were to kind of go to the average white person and point to some, you know, Indian American or Hispanic American or Asian American and say, is that person American?
00:15:59.860And, you know, assuming they are, of course, American, they're going to say, of course.
00:16:04.360I mean, the number of people who would really question – whites would question the American-ness of somebody based on their race is incredibly small.
00:16:17.540I can guarantee you those are not as permeable cultures to outsiders or a country like China, which takes a few thousand immigrants a year, you know, as opposed to millions.
00:16:27.360There's no comparison in terms of how open we have been in America and I'd add more broadly in the West because you see – even though Europe is less open, it's still very, very open to foreigners coming in and joining the community.
00:16:41.800So you mentioned the Civil Rights Act, not all bad, not completely unnecessary, but it's now manifested itself in ways that was – that were unintended, unforeseen.
00:17:06.040And it's created, of course, all these protected classes that get preferred treatment.
00:17:12.140They get preferential treatment, which means discrimination against white people simply because of the color of their skin, in particular white males.
00:17:39.040Well, first of all, you have the protected class.
00:17:41.080In my book comes this notion of the unprotected class.
00:17:44.860Now, I think it's important to say so that any leftists who are listening don't kind of jump down my throat.
00:17:50.260I do acknowledge in the book, nominally, whites cannot be discriminated against for being white.
00:17:55.080What we actually see is an epidemic of that.
00:17:58.220So it's in the law, but it's not really enforced except in rare situations.
00:18:02.120Although I would add, in a similar way to we can have this conversation a little better than we used to, we're beginning to see, like, some of the most extreme anti-white behavior for the first time being challenged.
00:18:14.560Like, you know, blatant things where they're saying white people cannot apply for this.
00:18:18.300So they don't usually put it like this, but it's like, this is for Asian-Americans or Latinos, right?
00:18:23.000Which means, you know, not for you, right?
00:18:26.500And so we're beginning to say, hey, actually, you know, that's illegal.
00:18:48.120But this is theoretically outlawed affirmative action.
00:18:51.420Now, the problem with that is people are kind of doing a way premature victory dance.
00:18:57.340Because if you look in California, twice in the last 25 years, they've outlawed by popular initiative affirmative action in the universities.
00:19:06.620I've looked at the California admission statistics.
00:19:08.960If you really squint, you can maybe see a little bit of effect of that.
00:19:13.380But they are still finding all sorts of ways to discriminate against white Californians, to a lesser degree, Asian-American Californians as well.
00:19:22.960And they just call it something else and nobody has been able to challenge them.
00:19:26.660I expect that we are going to have some of the same problems without very, very aggressive lawfare on our part enforcing these sorts of things nationally.
00:19:37.220Now, a part of this conversation about affirmative action, whether it's official or unofficial, out there or hidden, is the result of incompetent people becoming doctors and becoming lawyers.
00:19:53.920Because, and this is part of the forbidden conversation that you're not allowed to say, but part of affirmative action is, unfortunately, lowering the standard of admission in order to allow more minorities into a med school, allow them to get on the path to becoming doctors.
00:20:12.420I mean, that is a scary part of this, that anti-white discrimination, whites are still the majority in the country, leads to people who are not qualified for the pilot job, for the doctor job, for the lawyer job, getting those, I mean, getting those jobs and causing a lot of chaos.
00:20:33.900Well, I think that's absolutely right.
00:20:35.900And it's actually a good maybe kind of segue for me to talk about the Bakke decision in particular, because I think particularly some of your women listeners will be interested in this.
00:20:44.740So, Bakke, which was the original affirmative action decision of the court that was the law of the land until this last year, was a medical student or was applying to medical school at UC Davis.
00:20:55.480He was rejected in favor of some African-American candidates who had dramatically lower qualifications on paper.
00:21:04.220One of these in particular was kind of held up in the media as this is the guy who got, and I tell this story in the book, this is the guy who got that spot that Bakke did, and isn't it great because he's in the community, being a doctor, he's doing all these really useful things for women.
00:21:21.300He was an obstetrician, I believe, and he was celebrated by Ted Kennedy and a long profile in the New York Times.
00:21:27.840So, fast forward a few years, he kills one of his patients.
00:21:33.040I believe he may have sterilized another few, like, unintentionally during delivery.
00:21:37.680Don't quote me on that, but, like, very serious medical malpractice.
00:21:41.040He kills another patient in liposuction and kind of abandons her to die.
00:21:54.380When you have incompetent people being supported just by race, and this is literally the Bakke case, whereas Bakke eventually is admitted and goes on to work at the Mayo Clinic, which is one of the best kind of medical centers in the entire country.
00:22:08.820And we see that kind of thing manifest itself in so many different ways, starting in school.
00:22:14.460We see there is a disparity in disciplinary action taken, or there is a reduction of disciplinary action taken because of the disproportionate outcomes, because of the disproportionate impact that it has on minority students.
00:22:33.240And again, I go over some of this in the book, but you even have things like both of the horrific Florida case a few years back where the guy goes into Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School and shoots up.
00:22:45.400So the Obama administration is putting pressure on schools to lower the rate of disparity in discipline by race.
00:23:22.900It's never reported by the school resource officer to the police because they're trying to basically do this racial balancing.
00:23:31.840So you have this huge incident that becomes a national incident because we have this racial balancing rather than just being dispassionate and enforcing the same rules and regulations on everybody.
00:23:42.640You say on page 81, the Obama administration pushed policies that disproportionately put white students and teachers at risk in order to hide facts about the disciplinary records of black and Hispanic students.
00:24:05.780Because Democrats were uncomfortable with the underlying demographics of school misbehavior.
00:24:11.860So they pushed these policies, put the pressures on the school to say, hey, let's make sure the outcomes aren't disparate.
00:24:20.940Let's arrest them less because we're only concerned with the outcomes.
00:24:26.140But so Trump, the Trump administration ended Obama's disparate impact school disciplinary policies.
00:24:32.180The Biden administration was only too happy to bring them back.
00:24:35.400But even so, from 2017 to 2019, obviously Trump is president there.
00:24:41.480But in California schools, 3.7 percent of African-Americans, 3.8 percent of Native Americans and 2.1 percent of Hispanics were punished for fighting four or more times compared to just 1.2 percent of whites and 1 percent of Asian-Americans.
00:24:56.180So even with these policies trying to say, nope, we don't want any gaps, we don't want it to look like black students are misbehaving more than white students, you still see a disparity there.
00:25:07.000That's a pattern that we see over and over again.
00:25:09.160That is, I mean, social justice, basically, which is trying to maneuver things so that the group that is lagging behind gets ahead.
00:25:17.960Not by addressing the root cause of it, but basically trying to cook the numbers by changing the policies.
00:25:26.020And one of the things that you just alluded to in reading that passage that's also important, a lot of the times because the critic would say, ah, well, it's just institutionalized white supremacy.
00:25:35.000That's what's driving it for almost all of these metrics that you mentioned.
00:25:40.000Asian-Americans will actually do better than whites.
00:25:43.000They're less likely to be misbehaving in school.
00:25:45.080Their grades are better if you get to adults.
00:25:56.840And so they have to be erased from this conversation because it totally wrecks the white supremacy narrative to have them in this conversation.
00:26:06.460And so I think that's a really important thing to mention.
00:26:09.380And I've talked to white women about this, that, OK, you're saying that there's institutional white supremacy and that's why that there are these disparities of outcome between white Americans and black Americans.
00:26:21.480It's always just compared white and black, whether it's maternal mortality or whatever.
00:26:25.780And they always leave the Asians out and they say, well, that's a model minority myth, which I'm not even sure how it's a myth if we've got the statistics.
00:26:33.140And even in some things, Hispanics have to be excluded.
00:26:36.140Like when it comes to maternal mortality, they'll say, well, white women are so much less likely to die in childbirth than black women.
00:26:43.240Well, Hispanic women actually have a better rate of survival in a lot of cases.
00:26:49.140And so you can't talk about that, though.
00:26:51.240It's all to perpetuate this resentment and this war between whites and blacks.
00:27:01.740And again, you know, I sort of wrote this and particularly for the parents who are listening to this.
00:27:07.700I mean, again, I really did write it with that in mind.
00:27:11.240I wrote it as a parent, out of my concern as a parent, you know, in thinking, you know, how do I talk to my kids about this?
00:27:16.740And my kids, my older ones have all read the book, actually, which I didn't expect them to necessarily do, but they did.
00:27:24.640And it's a great kind of manual that you could give certainly to an older kid and say, hey, here's some of the things that you're going to deal with and maybe just think about how that maps with your experience.
00:27:35.620And one thing that's actually been really interesting, one of the first interviews I did on this book was with Charlie Kirk.
00:27:40.860And Charlie said, you know, when I talk to my older donors, they're like, oh, you know, I'm not sure I can say that.
00:27:52.440And you're, you know, they're like, absolutely, this is happening.
00:27:55.340And so it's sort of giving them the tools to talk about this in a calm and responsible fact and evidence-based way without being sort of histrionic or, you know, crying victim or anything like that.
00:28:06.400You know, I was talking to a baby boomer a few months ago, Republican, conservative, successful business owner, talking to him about DEI.
00:28:16.100And he, you know, wanted to have a kind of like nuanced take, well, you know, DEI is important in some ways.
00:28:24.280You just have to remember that we grew up in a time of explicit racism and discrimination and a lot of us feel guilty and we feel like we're making up for either the racism that we saw in our parents' generation or that we saw around us in the South in the 60s and 70s.
00:28:39.340But then when I asked him, I said, okay, but you realize how this is going to affect your grandsons, your grandsons who are teenagers right now.
00:28:48.720How, like, how would you feel if this DEI policy negatively, tangibly affects him?
00:28:54.900And that got him thinking a little bit.
00:28:57.180He was like, I got to think about that.
00:28:59.540Do you see that, that some of this is motivated actually by even white conservatives in the baby boomer class because they are, they feel guilty?
00:29:08.380Yeah. And I think for older people, particularly my parents are kind of, they grew up, they were born right before World War II.
00:29:15.060And so they kind of grew up with this world that was different and they can't totally make that frame switch to like, hey, it's not the 1940s and 50s anymore.
00:29:26.320I mean, of course, in certain ways they can, but it's, they've sort of grown up with this.
00:29:29.800And they've also grown up with a lot of the propaganda around this that we've had.
00:29:35.500And so I do try to personalize it, particularly when I'm talking to parents and say, hey, this is, this is not abstract.
00:29:40.680This is about whether your kid is going to have the same opportunities that other kids are, whether it be in the workplace, in jobs, how they're going to be portrayed in the culture.
00:29:49.400Because we've talked about a lot of informal things in this, or formal things in this conversation.
00:29:55.180But I have chapters on Hollywood and places like that, or how we teach history, that there is some actual formal discrimination going on in both of those places.
00:30:04.640But a lot of it is sort of just like, what are the messages the culture is giving us?
00:30:08.920And again, as Christians, we pay a lot of attention to the fact that we don't always love those messages.
00:30:12.500But we're also getting a lot of messages from Madison Avenue, from Hollywood about, you know, white people being evil, white people being bad.
00:30:21.420And your kids are sitting in front of Disney cartoons or whatever, and they're imbibing that message, unfortunately.
00:30:29.880I want to talk about so-called representation in a second, but I'm still on this, and I know we have to move past, like, the first couple chapters.
00:30:36.900But there's so much packed in, and I just encourage everyone to get the book, because you're not getting, in this conversation, because it's a conversation, all of the data.
00:30:45.880There's so much data in here that we just can't even cover.
00:30:50.160But I do want to talk about, you mentioned this, which is really interesting.
00:30:53.800Again, something that I think a lot of people noticed, but didn't know if it was actually happening.
00:30:57.500Anticipating an unfavorable Supreme Court ruling on affirmative action, education elites began to do everything they could to reduce objective performance measurements, largely under the cover of COVID.
00:31:09.220Some schools began moving to eliminate standardized tests entirely versus their requirement, and later, even as an option, as happened in California.
00:31:18.920And they say that they're doing this, again, for COVID, but some people might even say inclusiveness.
00:31:27.400We see similar policies in grade school, public schools, removing reading requirements.
00:31:33.680There was that school, I think it was a school in Baltimore, where 80% of the seniors could not read.
00:31:39.020Like, they basically were illiterate, and they still graduated.
00:31:43.600Again, because the only concern is outcomes, not the real problems.
00:31:49.300And when you have an outcome-based metric like that, when people aren't meeting the standard, what goes is not the people, but the standard.
00:31:58.300And that's what we're seeing, and that has profoundly negative consequences for all of society as we were kind of, even at our top, top institutions, kind of walking away from standards.
00:32:10.640And in fact, this got so extreme that some of the Ivy League has kind of looked at, they kind of got rid of the SATs.
00:32:16.880Their student quality dropped so dramatically that quietly they've begun to reverse themselves.
00:32:21.900They're not going to go all the way, and it's not going to be complete, but it was just, it was really so visible how much getting rid of standards had hurt them that they said, well, we've ultimately got a brand to protect, so we're going to, you know, walk back at least a little bit.
00:32:35.580I don't know if you listened to the Sold a Story podcast.
00:32:39.480It came out, I think, yeah, it was last year, a little over a year ago.
00:32:43.640And it's just about how we have, as a public education system, we have accepted this mode of reading that instead of relying on any phonics, it's like weird tactics of word memorization, whatever.
00:32:59.600But one of the statistics in there was that most fourth graders, most fourth graders of all races can read at a kindergarten level or below, and 82% of black fourth graders cannot read.
00:33:15.700And so if we really cared, if we really cared about black excellence, if we really cared about them being the doctors and the scientists and lawyers, which I don't think you and I have a problem with that, with any competent person achieving those goals, but looking at the statistics, that can't happen in a competent way.
00:33:38.260Or, yeah, it's just not going to happen if this is what's going on.
00:33:42.880And like you said, outcomes-based systems, that's what that leads to.
00:33:49.600And even though I have my share of disagreements with him, when George W. Bush was talking about the soft bigotry of low expectations, I think that this was, you know, one of the more effective things he does.
00:33:59.160And people will, by the way, not—you're never going to have perfect equality outside of communism, right?
00:34:05.240But you're—and that wouldn't obviously be perfect for many reasons, but if you set a high standard and high expectations and you meet them for everybody, you'll be surprised by who will kind of come up and do that.
00:34:19.200And it's one of the things, kind of in a similar way, you hear a lot of discussion about black fatherlessness, for example, and they say—the apologists say, oh, this is a legacy of slavery.
00:34:29.960Well, if you go back to 1940, a much closer time to slavery than today, the African-American fatherlessness rate was around 15%, which is not only—it's way lower than even the white rate is today, which is like 35%, 38%.
00:34:45.880So what we had is nobody's genetics changed.
00:34:51.360Certainly America didn't get more racist, but the culture changed a lot, and the expectation changed a lot, and that had a really profound negative effect.
00:35:00.040So that's why this, by the way, this sort of discussion matters not just for white people or white listeners, but for everybody, because the policy we are putting in place, policies we are putting in place, are hurting everybody, not just white students, white people.
00:35:12.080Gosh, I recommended this book so much in 2020.
00:35:16.680I'm sure you've read it, Discrimination and Disparities by Thomas Sowell.
00:35:20.340I'm sure you have, but a lot of this conversation just reminds me of that, because that's something that he points out.
00:35:25.880One, that disparities of outcome don't automatically prove that there's discrimination.
00:35:29.920There could be all different kinds of reasons for disparities, but also pointing out the statistics that you're talking about, that if we're looking at these disparities as proof of discrimination, well, if we go back to before the Civil Rights Act, if we go back to the 50s and 60s, those disparities are a lot smaller when racism was much more pervasive and pronounced.
00:35:56.480And so racism can't be the cause of greater disparities today when clearly we're not as racist as we were 60 years ago.
00:36:05.480And I'm glad you mentioned Sowell because he was absolutely a touchstone for this book.
00:36:09.680And in fact, I kind of mentioned, I'd, of course, I mean, you can't be an American and not ever think about race.
00:36:16.580But the first time I really remember seriously thinking about race and public policy, I was a newlywed.
00:36:22.600My wife and I were both Americans, but we were living in India.
00:36:25.020I was doing public policy work out there in 2004.
00:36:28.580And I read Thomas Sowell's book, Affirmative Action Around the World, an Empirical Study, which is a terrific book.
00:36:34.500And I realized that a lot of the things I was seeing in India around caste politics were really the exact replication of what we were seeing in the U.S. around racial politics, just different groups kind of swapped in as the victims and the oppressors.
00:36:47.160And so that was really the beginning of my really thinking more seriously about a lot of this stuff.
00:36:52.920Which is funny because there is a book that was popularized, maybe it was published too, but popularized definitely after 2020 that I saw Christians promoting, that I saw Oprah promoting.
00:37:01.040I think the author's last name is Wilkerson called Caste.
00:37:04.240And it argues, though, the opposite of what you're saying.
00:37:08.260I mean, it argues that black and brown people are in a caste system in the United States thanks to the white oppressor.
00:37:15.380Well, this is the dynamic that the left shows.
00:37:18.240And again, I mean, what I try to do in my book is just demolish that with facts and logic.
00:37:23.620I mean, I want to sound too Ben Shapiro here, but there's there's like an element of just, yeah, I put out the evidence and people I'm not screaming about it, but like people can judge for themselves.
00:37:34.540And I think the people who've read the book find it pretty persuasive.
00:37:37.000So we've heard for a long time the importance of representation.
00:37:51.960And like a lot of leftists speak, it starts out sounding innocuous.
00:37:56.440Tolerance, inclusion, diversity, equity, all of these kind of universally positive terms or they once were universally positive terms.
00:38:04.860And so you feel guilty questioning them.
00:38:40.960And by the way, when you read ad industry blogs, as I did for this, it's like a trope actually today of like the stupid white person doing something dumb in the ad.
00:38:49.880And the kind of enlightened minority comes in and saves them.
00:38:53.260This is among like liberal people in the ad industry acknowledging that this goes on.
00:38:57.680Or similarly, something like Hamilton, which I actually think is artistically actually a very interesting work.
00:39:06.160But yet, if you kind of poke beneath that to the racial politics, at one level, you could say, hey, that's great that they're saying that all these different racial groups can be inheritors of the founding because we, of course, do believe that.
00:39:18.640But then the one villain, King George, or, you know, like the kind of obvious villain is the only guy who's the white guy.
00:39:35.680So there's that, and then you see the black woman as Mary Queen of Scots or whatever, but you could never imagine a white guy playing Frederick Douglass.
00:41:34.080And that is part of this is that both well-meaning white Americans and then I would say like liberal white Americans who many times are just virtue signaling or maybe it's genuine.
00:43:15.860And I think you kind of touch on that, that brilliantly.
00:43:19.720And Votie Bauckham talks about this a lot, this kind of notion of how unbiblical it is to say that you have sin based on the color of your skin.
00:43:28.980And the problem with, as he points out, saying that you have this based on the color of your skin is that we can't get absolution through Jesus Christ for that.
00:44:05.520That is the opposite of what Christianity should teach.
00:44:08.940But even to the kind of practical issue that you raised of how some of this works, a classic example that I talk about is when white people fled, it's called white flight, when they fled neighborhoods.
00:44:22.440And I talk about how really this was the only form of ethnic cleansing for which the victims were kind of blamed.
00:44:28.240They weren't the only victims, but they were certainly, I would argue, the predominant victims.
00:44:31.920And then if they come back to a minority neighborhood decades later, it's gentrification.
00:44:36.320So, the only thing, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
00:44:48.440And, you know, I wrote the book to say, hey, we don't need to play this game and we don't need to be, you know, at least individually, if you haven't done anything wrong, you haven't done anything wrong.
00:45:06.320I want to talk about a little bit more how this is manifesting itself in the church.
00:45:15.280And this was a beat that I focused on a lot in 2020 because I did feel like there were so few white Christians and white Christian women saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:45:31.900Why are we reading anti—how to be an anti-racist in white fragility?
00:45:55.980But in her book and in the Facebook group that is centered on her book, Be the Bridge, they perpetuate this narrative that, yes, white people, you are collectively responsible for being the initiators of reconciliation because of what some black people at some point in history went through and what some white people at some point in history went to.
00:46:20.480And then they point to the Bible and say, well, Israel was responsible for the sins of their ancestors, even though white people are not a covenant people.
00:46:57.120I talk about Christianity Today, the Gospel Coalition, Acts 29 Network.
00:47:01.200And again, I'm not painting with a broad brush both from knowledge and also not wanting to falsely accuse everybody who is associated with that with engaging in this.
00:47:10.040But you saw these sorts of problems prop up in these very prominent evangelical spaces.
00:47:17.260Jamar Tisby, somebody I talk about in the book, a guy who won a major, major evangelical book award in the last couple years.
00:47:25.800And he was a guy who was perpetuating the Michael Brown, hands up, don't shoot hoax, and various other things that are just—they're just not biblical.
00:47:35.380And I'm not questioning his Christian belief, but I am saying that his—he is doctrinally in error in some fairly serious ways in making those types of accusations.
00:47:45.940And we certainly should not be giving him a pass on that.
00:47:50.100At places like the Gospel Coalition, you write on page 218, Christianity Today, and the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, stalwarts of modern popular evangelicalism, critical race theory has a significant presence.
00:48:00.140A tweet by Brett McCracken, a senior editor at the Gospel Coalition, is instructive.
00:48:03.800He calls on white Christian leaders to listen to and defer to non-white and non-Western Christian leaders.
00:48:10.560And we see this kind of language over and over again that you just need to—look, we've held space for too long.
00:48:46.460And, of course, I recognize that sort of language, but I was never actually exposed to it as a student.
00:48:51.860I just hear about it from my millennial friends or Gen X, you know, people who I met or Gen Z people I'm mentoring.
00:48:58.440So that's absolutely—it's out there.
00:49:00.380I have a thing in there, the head of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary at the time saying, I'm a racist and I'll be racist until my glorified body is resurrected.
00:49:11.200And you're sort of, you know, doing a deep breath.
00:49:15.640Because if you're actually racist, at least in the popular understanding of that, well, then you certainly shouldn't be running the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
00:49:22.520But what you're really doing is just virtue signaling.
00:49:25.060Remember—not true at Kathy—Dan Kathy, when he, like, washed the shoes, shined the shoes of Lecrae, and that, like, virtue signaling display.
00:49:36.720And, you know, I have—I do have grace for a lot of Christians during that time who just weren't where we were because we had been watching this unfold for a little while.
00:49:49.300We were ready to say, like, no, no, not to say I got it perfectly at all.
00:49:53.800I'm sure there were things I said that were wrong.
00:49:56.560But I do think that some of them since then have realized, like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that.
00:50:03.000Or that person that I platformed because I thought that they were a Christian, you know, social justice warrior.
00:50:08.940It turns out they actually just hate white people, and I'm not going to platform them.
00:50:12.260Now, I would love to see public repentance from them.
00:50:14.780I haven't seen any apologies from these people saying, ooh, I don't think deriding white image bearers of God was the right thing.
00:50:26.720But look, again, it's just – the church is filled with fallible and sinful humans, and that was true 100 years ago and 500 years ago, and it will be true 100 years hence.
00:50:38.240And we just need to be honest about what the church can do and what it can.
00:50:42.400And I think I would encourage folks within their own churches – I've been fortunate this has not been a big issue in my church.
00:50:47.900But if you're seeing that type of language, and you do see it even in good evangelical churches – I mean, I talk about how crazy some of these mainland churches have begun.
00:50:57.360There are a lot of believers who are even going to some of these mainland churches, have no idea the crazy kind of positions their denominational leaders are taking.
00:51:04.540But even within the evangelical movement, if you see something, say something, right, as they say.
00:51:10.200If you see this sort of thing in a spirit of love and grace, go up to some of your colleagues and – or, you know, co-paritioners or even your pastor and say, hey, you know, I think that's not – that's not kind of Bible-based thinking about this sort of issue.
00:51:24.620Yeah. I also think another thing within this realm that trips Christians up is immigration, refugee acceptance, while the Bible says to love the foreigner.
00:51:36.680Like, I saw some, like, tweet by a Christian the other day was like, I'm way more scared of, like, you know, a southern Caucasian than I would be an immigrant.
00:51:57.680And if I see – so immigration is – which I talk about a lot in the book is one of my real specialty areas and something I've written a lot about.
00:52:04.320And so I think I even do address it a little bit in the chapter of the church because if I have to hear one more thing about Jesus and his family being, like, illegal migrants who, you know, are fleeing – I'm like, no.
00:52:14.740You know, it's just, like, biblically wrong, you know, besides you're just beating up on white people, right?
00:52:21.800Historically, geographically wrong, it's all wrong.
00:52:23.600Yeah, and there is actually – for those who are interested, there's entire books on biblical views of immigration kind of going back to the Old Testament that you can kind of understand.
00:52:34.020And then at the most trivial level, we kind of understand the Caesar-Christ distinction and no matter how you kind of – where you fall on the two kingdoms continuum, like, there is certainly room for different communities.
00:52:47.300And the notion that because we may all be a family as Christians doesn't mean that we don't have a border, that we don't have cultures, and that, you know, the Tower of Babel is, like, the – kind of where you wind up.
00:52:59.560Like, we're not – the Bible warns many times against us all trying to be one people, right?
00:53:17.560And that's what what you just said reminded me of, is that it has this idea, as vague as it might be, of what the kingdom here on earth will look like, what the end result of progressivism will be.
00:53:28.660When they get rid of the family, when they get rid of white people, when they get rid of countries and borders and all of these boundaries that they see as oppressive, then it will be like John Lennon's Imagine.
00:53:40.620They don't know what it's going to be, but somehow there will be a new species of human who doesn't fight, doesn't oppress, and, you know, doesn't discriminate.
00:53:49.380Whatever it is, they'll just keep on destroying until they get there, which, of course, is utopia.
00:53:56.380And what they're trying to accomplish is heaven on earth without Christ, like, without salvation from sin.
00:54:07.560And so I think that there is a religious motivation, a non-Christian religious motivation behind getting rid of countries.
00:54:16.300It is like making heaven on earth without Jesus, because heaven will be lots of tribes, lots of people, people who have different languages, people of different ethnicities, but united by Christ.
00:54:30.360And the progressive religion, it's going to be all of those things, but only united by sin, one will be of peace and one will be just constant chaos.
00:54:39.940And there's a writer, a conservative blogger, actually a secularist named Ace of Spades, who once wrote this great phrase, I'm going to get it a little bit wrong, but I've quoted it before, where he said, look, like the left, I'm a secularist.
00:54:52.380But they're really poor secularist because in attempting to eliminate religion from their worldview, they've actually allowed religious thinking to infect every single mode of their thought.
00:55:02.760And so you look at what they're doing and it's like, it is all religion, but without Christ and all the good things that come with belief in Christ.
00:55:10.480And that's what makes them so dangerous.
00:55:12.880And it also means they'll never stop because they're always like, well, why aren't we getting to this place where everything's paradise?
00:55:21.080And as Christians, we understand that you're not, we're not going to get that.
00:55:26.360Why do you think Christians mistake white guilt for Christlike humility?
00:55:32.760Well, partially it's the culture is making it easier, right?
00:55:35.940And there's, there's a, um, it's, it's, it's, I think most of the criticisms that I would get on this book, I kind of just disregard, like I don't even mean anything.
00:55:46.760The, the only one I kind of pay attention to broadly is to say, well, you know, you don't want to portray yourself as like some grand victim or whatever, but actually it's much harder.
00:55:54.820Or let me tell you to kind of go confront these falsehoods and say like, what you were doing to me is wrong.
00:56:00.740Um, then it is to just sort of, oh, you know, you be quiet.
00:56:03.580And then like, I kind of deserve it in some way.
00:56:06.260And there, and everybody's going to think I'm a good person.
00:56:08.360Sometimes of course, for many of your listeners who might be in a corporate environment, their costs to speaking out, um, greater costs.
00:56:15.160I think a few years ago, I think you can get away with a little bit more now.
00:56:17.860And I, I, again, I'm hoping to, in writing this book, open up more space, but there's all sorts of informal and formal costs to speaking out and the culture, especially if you're sending your kids to government school, but even in a lot of Christian schools, you know, they're imbibing this message.
00:56:33.220Your kids from the time they're little, they're imbibing it in, um, the entertainment that they're watching unless you're incredibly scrupulous there.
00:56:39.940And so it's really hard to go against that type of conditioning that you're just getting 24 seven.
00:56:46.280And it's a sort of soft totalitarian environment that we're in, at least on these issues.
00:56:51.980Do you think it's better for people to be proud of their skin color or to not really think about their skin color at all?
00:57:00.880I'd say I'm probably like, I would maybe reject that dichotomy in that.
00:57:05.180I mean, I think you can, within that, your family's from a certain area.
00:57:09.780You can be proud of that heritage, right?
00:57:14.040I mean, you could say maybe European or something like that.
00:57:16.840I mean, you can be, um, respect the achievements of your ancestors or feel that there are good things that came out of that culture.
00:57:25.200Um, I actually do push back a little bit against the color blindness because I think it's a little bit of a naive way to look at the world.
00:57:33.220I think we want to try it as best as possible to be legally colorblind because that is the right way to go forward.
00:57:38.560But when people say, oh, I don't see color, that always strikes me as a little bit disingenuous.
00:57:43.720We all go around, we see color, we should acknowledge that and then attempt as best as possible, at least within our legal frameworks.
00:57:51.240You know, maybe our cultural frameworks are a little different, but within our legal frameworks, we want to try to not take that into account.
00:57:57.400But, but we're going to see color and we need to accept that and be comfortable with that and not feel that there's anything wrong in kind of acknowledging that reality.
00:58:07.020We can just be thankful for how the Lord made us without putting pride in any superficiality, whether it's our eye color or, you know, the length of our hair, whatever it is.
00:58:18.460Because none of us are responsible for those things.
00:58:21.200And there's no reason, obviously, to put anybody down based on any of their background.
00:58:26.640Again, you're just as good as you are or bad as you are.
00:58:30.780And you're both infinitely more loved by God and more infinitely sinful than you could probably possibly imagine, as Tim Culler of my denomination, the late Tim Culler once noted.
00:58:41.080But, but yeah, so you don't have a particular pride because you look a certain way or animus towards somebody else because they don't.
00:58:49.820But, you know, you try to take the good parts that you've inherited from your tradition and push that forward while still being open to other people and other traditions.
00:59:25.200We've got the, you know, we've got the war on drugs and they would say that that is what, redlining, that's what's caused all of the disparities today.
00:59:36.800And so we need to right those historic wrongs and they would, they would say maybe innocently that that's the real definition of social justice, that we are righting those wrongs.
00:59:51.580The vestiges of real discrimination of racism are alive and well today.
00:59:56.560So let's close those gaps by fixing those injustices.
01:00:00.680I guess my question is, do you think that that's a true narrative?
01:00:07.000Well, I don't agree with it, although I do agree with your statement that this is the sort of more reasonable kind of counter narrative to give, right?
01:00:14.560And I think there's a variety of reasons, and I talk about a lot of them in the book, why I think it's false.
01:00:19.340We talked about the sort of illegitimacy rate in the African-American community as one classic example of why I think this, you know, everything's because of oppression kind of falls apart when you look at it beyond that.
01:00:34.780And again, I think you can make really strong factual cases against that.
01:00:37.880I won't just do it for the interest of time here.
01:00:40.420Fine. If you feel like you want to have a leg up based on somebody's actual socioeconomic standing, like if they're really at the bottom of the heap in terms of they're growing up in poverty or they're growing up in a fatherless family or whatever it is, and you want to take that into account in some way for how you're bringing them into some organization or job.
01:01:02.900Okay. I mean, I think there are dangers to that, but I can deal with that.
01:01:06.140But that's not actually what's going on.
01:01:08.600And like just empirically, if you look at what's going on, whether it's set aside minority small business contracts, I mean, that the government runs or who benefits from affirmative action in the workplace and the school market, what you see continually is it's better off people who tend to be the primary beneficiaries of that.
01:01:29.340So if you think that there's redress that needs to be done, then let's concentrate on the groups that –
01:01:36.140Are sort of at the bottom of the heap.
01:01:37.880Now, again, I'm kind of wary of going particularly far with that logic anyway.
01:01:42.720But even if you accept that logic, there is no reason why the children of an African-American multimillionaire or even more because people could say –
01:01:52.540Or somebody like Ann Coulter would say, okay, well, African-Americans have a very unique history in the U.S., and so maybe this more applies to them.
01:01:59.920But like why should a Hispanic or an Asian-American who do not have that same history benefit from that?
01:02:07.800And not all black Americans are even African-American or have ancestors that came from Africa.
01:02:12.420Well, and this is actually significant because it's now up to like almost a quarter of African-Americans, I think, are either African immigrants or descended from African immigrants.
01:02:24.260That might be a little high, but it's a very significant number.
01:02:26.740Among them, Barack Obama and Kamala Harris, who – I mean, her father did not come from Africa but came from Jamaica as a –
01:02:39.340And became a professor at Stanford, right?
01:02:41.040So she didn't exactly grow up in poverty and oppression.
01:03:00.140We all can kind of point back to some period in history – I don't care how privileged you look – where you were sort of on or your group was on the lower end of this.
01:03:09.480We shouldn't try to think that we have the hubris of thinking we can equalize all that.
01:03:14.340What we need to do is treat everybody fairly today to the best of our ability.
01:03:38.380Now, he's also an advocate for the most vulnerable, an advocate for the fatherlessness.
01:03:42.580He believes in, charges us to treat the truly oppressed with extra dignity and extra care, not to extort them, not to manipulate them, not to ignore them.
01:03:56.060And that is, of course, how the church changed the world when we burst onto the scene in the pagan world that did truly marginalize everyone except for the adult free male.
01:04:04.660And I think that's why the church gets tripped up here because they use language that traditionally has been Christian language.
01:04:16.240That have now been bastardized by, you know, race hacks that have changed the definitions without a lot of Christians even noticing, oh, well, of course I'm supposed to love.
01:04:42.400And then the other end of this is you get sometimes almost this extreme—because I would actually like churches to speak out in a different way than a lot of them are speaking out.
01:04:53.300Instead, you get some of this extreme Anabaptist behavior almost in the church.
01:04:57.620And you see a lot of people on the left getting really concerned about, oh, Christian nationalism.
01:05:02.380And I could go on to, like, why I'm not particularly concerned about that.
01:05:07.060One is that I'm not on the left, but, you know, I don't think we're about to become a Christian theocracy here in America.
01:05:12.920But I'm actually more concerned that a lot of churches are saying, well, we're going to have the only perfect community—I'm even using that in air quotes—is sort of within our church.
01:05:25.040But, like, we're going to ignore all the stuff that's going on outside the church, or we're certainly not going to speak out on controversial issues.
01:05:32.700And I see a lot of good theologically orthodox churches kind of falling into that trap as well.
01:05:48.100We're kind of jumping around here, but in your chapter about crime and punishment and how this anti-white discrimination shows up there, you say,
01:05:56.660This trend toward desperately looking for white criminals to both charge and cover in the media has been so pervasive and so longstanding that the late, brilliant author and cultural critic Tom Wolfe dubbed it the hunt for the great white defendant.
01:06:09.160And then you talk about Kyle Rittenhouse, and they really are hoisted up as, look at this white devil.
01:06:16.340And then there was the Covington—the Covington kid.
01:06:38.980Yeah, I mean, in this—we were constantly jumping to judgment as a society.
01:06:43.540And for a guy like Rittenhouse, I mean, thank God—I'm saying this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but not totally—thank God he killed a bunch of, like, white felons, literally, which he did.
01:06:52.260If he had killed African-Americans, I don't know that he would have gotten off on those charges, despite the fact that he was demonstrably innocent of those charges, at least in my view.
01:07:03.580I mean, it's not that he—obviously, he killed people.
01:07:05.580And no one's happy that any of that happened.
01:07:07.440You can argue that he shouldn't have been there in the first place as a 17-year-old kid, but looking at the facts at hand.
01:07:13.340Yeah, and so you see this constantly, and I talk a lot in my crime chapter about the narrative on crime, which is pretty much the exact opposite of reality.
01:07:21.220And that's why it actually matters, because when we—like, George Floyd doesn't just emerge like Athena from Zeus's head, fully armored, ready for battle, right?
01:07:32.260There's a whole series of falsehoods that have to be injected into the body politic for a thing like George Floyd to happen, right?
01:07:42.040Like, a whole bunch of things that are not true have to become accepted as true about police brutality, about George Floyd himself, about unarmed African-Americans.
01:07:50.600And that's the only way you can sell something that was that destructive.
01:07:55.680And so that's why it matters that we get these facts right.
01:07:58.980You know, I remember—I don't remember whether it was after Ahmaud Arbery, which was a horrible situation, or if it was after George Floyd.
01:08:06.720But LeBron James, LeBron, the oppressed LeBron James, I feel so bad for him, he said, he tweeted, stop killing us!
01:08:16.380But to that, you have this point in your book.
01:08:21.500Since 1968, according to FBI statistics, there have been approximately 193,500 interracial murders.
01:08:30.780So most murders are intraracial, black-on-black, white-on-white, except for, this is just a note, Asians.
01:08:37.440Asians are most likely to be killed by a black person than another Asian person.
01:08:40.540But anyway, 193,500 interracial murders since 1968, with more than 75% of those being white victims of black murders.
01:08:53.820And then, more than 85% of female victims of interracial murder are white victims of black murders.
01:09:02.580So it is much more likely for a white person to be killed by a black person, including police officers, than a black person killed by a white person.
01:10:35.660And I've just accepted that. And it's because I talked to political people a lot. I often forget how much people don't know.
01:10:42.980And I really did try to write this book, not for experts and also not for people who would already be convinced of my position.
01:10:50.620Like they almost, I don't want to say they don't need to read the book because they'll learn quite a lot, even, even those who do.
01:10:56.020But, but I really wrote it for somebody who maybe, they kind of have a sense that maybe not everything is right.
01:11:00.700Um, and they don't really know how to talk about these issues and they're maybe not totally convinced by, wow, that sounds like a shocking thesis, but they're at least open to it.
01:11:11.120That's the person who I most wrote the book for.
01:11:14.180Um, and I think they'll hopefully be very persuaded. I mean, early reviewers have seemed to indicate that they, they have been. So that's been really encouraging and great news.
01:11:22.160I think absolutely. If they already agree with your premise or they already have these suspicions that they need to read this book, because as you said, they confirm the suspicions, but then they remind you, okay, you're not crazy.
01:11:34.240No, you're not some crazy white supremacist racist just because you're like, huh, this doesn't really seem fair or right. And this gives you all the facts and all the data and you can be prepared for those conversations.
01:11:45.360But also you just, you just know, you know what you're facing. And I think it's important to know what obstacles you're facing. You also talk about how this happens. And I know we kind of have to wrap. I could talk for two more hours about this, but, um, you also talk about how this happens in big business, big tech discrimination in the workplace. So speaking of obstacles that white people are facing, uh, what's happening here?
01:12:08.040Well, you have everything from, um, the weird racial politics of Silicon Valley. And I lived in the Valley for quite a while. So I kind of understand that. And, and there often people would talk about white supremacy or white being disproportionately represented, whereas every reasonable metric you could use on a population basis would in fact indicate that Asian Americans were dramatically more represented in everything in Silicon Valley as a percentage of population.
01:12:34.000Not by the way, not by the way, inherently a problem, right? It's only a problem. They're blaming whites as if they've, they've done something wrong. Whereas in fact, they're underrepresented in many of these, um, groups, but in big business, I kind of talk about all of the craziness that went on in the wake of George Floyd and how many billions of dollars were pledged to a very, very corrupt. And I'm not using that word. Um, I'm using that word very carefully. Black lives matter movement. Um, we, my, my, my colleagues at Claremont and I, we documented this in a data
01:13:04.000database that you can find of just like every group, all these big businesses kind of coming in to give millions of dollars to kind of push this false narrative and to get to some of the worst grifters in society. So big business is very much, unfortunately, implicated in a lot of this story. And again, it's just one of the many, many kind of simmering things in the book.
01:13:27.140Yeah. You say a survey of 1000 hiring managers revealed that one in six was requested not to hire white men, even though, as you said earlier, this is illegal with another 14% discouraged from hiring white women. Most hiring managers in a recent survey believe their companies discriminate against whites in hiring and that a failure to bring in sufficiently quote unquote diverse hires will put their jobs in danger.
01:13:51.140Therefore a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a quarter.
01:14:06.080Yeah. Of course. And I should add of those groups, that's a severe undercount because hiring managers and that whole HR crew is some of the most liberal people in the corporate world.
01:14:17.520So if they're acknowledging, if 25% of them are acknowledging that they're discriminating, the real number who are actually doing it is almost certainly much, much, much higher. And again, you see all sorts of cases of this taking place on just a regular basis.
01:14:35.460Yep, absolutely. So where do we go from here? How do we combat this? What do we do about this? Because yes, as we said, the commentator class getting bolder about this, but I'm a suburban white woman that goes to an evangelical church.
01:14:56.200Right. There may be something in the back of their head saying, maybe I got 2020 wrong. But if something like that were to happen again, they'd be right back there. They'd be right back there saying, oh, Trump is putting kids in cages.
01:15:11.600Yeah. And oh, my goodness, that I can't believe that they arrested a black man and black people are targeted. They'll say things like I've had these conversations of like, well, you know, black people are pulled over by the police more just because of the color of their skin.
01:15:27.560And I'm like, I get pulled over all the time, actually. And it's just because I'm a bad driver. So but I don't I'm worried that we are one incident away from getting right back to where we were four years ago.
01:15:42.200Yeah, I mean, I, I, I hope that it won't be that bad. I do think that at least some people have learned something from George Floyd. But I think you're absolutely right that the media at least will definitely try to take us there.
01:15:53.600The cultural elites will try to take us there. The Democratic Party will try to take us there. And there will be an incident. They're constantly trying to manufacture a new incident.
01:16:02.180I think the average, you know, nice evangelical white woman who's attending church, arm yourself with the facts. And yeah, I don't want to do too much of a infomercial for the book here. But right, like, I've had a number of people who said, yeah, I bought a copy for my pastor, right? Like, yeah, so you can, you can buy the book, you can read it if you like it, you know, buy a copy for your pastor,
01:16:22.540buy a copy for even your growth group or a small group in church, you could have a discussion about it or, and then at a practical level, you also need to, you can support politicians who have spoken out more forthrightly on these issues on our side.
01:16:40.140And these are tend to be the more conservative people within our caucus. So you can, you can encourage that type of good behavior, and you can really ruthlessly punish bad behavior.
01:16:49.620And I've got a whole set of other things in the book that I talk about, because I'm not just trying to be a Debbie Downer, where I'm saying, Oh, you know, it's so terrible, we can't do anything about it.
01:16:57.440I actually think there's lots of things that we can do about it from a policy perspective. And I suggest a number of them in the concluding chapters of the book. And it's just a question of electing people who are willing to kind of put those sorts of plans in place.
01:17:11.740Yeah. Unfortunately, history has told us where this kind of rhetoric and where this mentality leads. It's not to a place of liberation. It is to a place of further true oppression for both the revolutionaries and the victims of the revolution.
01:17:26.780I mean, look at every left wing revolution. Look at Zimbabwe, when they said, You know what, we're gonna do away with these white people. And then, of course, it went from the breadbasket of Africa to the impoverished place that it is today. So lots of historical evidences of where this can go.
01:17:44.340Yeah, absolutely. And I, it's sort of funny, you mentioned, I have a really close friend who's an Indian American. And when I was talking with him about the book, and he started reading it, he's like, you know, at first, you were like, talking about white people. And I'm like, I'm not white. It's not that he doesn't care. But he's like, why does that super affect me? Maybe he's it wasn't as personal for him. But then when you started sketching out how this is going to be really bad for everybody. I was like, wow, okay, yeah, I mean, we really do need to do something about this, not because it's happening.
01:18:14.340to white people, but because it's happening to other Americans. And that's an injustice. And it's going to create problems.
01:18:21.040Yep, absolutely. Okay, the cover, kill all wits. Yeah, what is that from?
01:18:27.660So that was I didn't design the cover, but I thought, no, I like it.
01:18:31.580It's good. Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's good, too. So they just they did it. I was like, okay, that looks pretty good. That was painted, I believe it was graffiti from the 1990s that was in California somewhere.
01:18:41.640Somebody put that up. And it kind of, I think it illustrates both the illiteracy and the dangerousness of this type of thinking that we have going on in America right now, and why we really need to put a stop to it.
01:18:54.160Yeah, and of course, we've seen this kind of language echoed a lot over the past several years.
01:18:59.680Yeah. And especially as Christians, like we have a charge to care about this.
01:19:04.900Look, at the end of the day, God is not, he's not judging people based on their skin color. He's not saying you're more responsible for your sins and the sins of others because you have less melanin.
01:19:21.160That's not how he works. And because of that, and because we care about the truth, because we care about order, and we're to be agents of order, and we care about all image bearers of God, this is something that we need to care about, as uncomfortable as it might be.
01:19:36.780Yes. Yeah, that is. And I know particularly for, I just think of my own way, for a lot of women, you know, they particularly like that may feel like confrontational, and I don't want to be, I'm not that sort of person.
01:19:46.820I would actually argue, if you read this, this is the most non-confrontational possible presentation of this book.
01:19:53.420I think the best thing we did during the editing process is anytime I got at all flowery with language, we were just like, eh, take it out.
01:20:00.460You know, we're just going to present the case.
01:20:02.440And look, I mean, I've been fortunate that folks like Heather McDonald, and Charlie Kirk, and Tucker, and actually the longest-serving member of Peter Kirstenow, the longest-serving African-American member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights in history, was one of the endorsers of this book.
01:20:16.940So I think it's something that's gotten a lot of support, and I'm extremely grateful for that.
01:20:21.400Good. So the Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart. It's available everywhere books are sold.
01:20:27.740Awesome. Well, we will put a link in the description of this episode so people can just click on it and buy it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
01:20:33.780Thanks so much for having me on. It's been a great discussion.