Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 13, 2024


Ep 1019 ｜ The Christian ‘Ashley Madison’ Couple Speaks Out ｜ Guests： Sam & Nia Rader


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 5 minutes

Words per Minute

186.75887

Word Count

12,190

Sentence Count

988


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.260 Sam and Nia Rader are popular YouTubers, and they were just featured on a Netflix documentary about Ashley Madison.
00:00:08.300 That is that website that allows married people to pursue affairs.
00:00:14.380 They are here to share their story today.
00:00:17.560 And here's a little preview of that documentary, Sat One.
00:00:21.520 I love being a dad. I love my wife.
00:00:23.840 It was a beautiful marriage, but it's also just like monotonous.
00:00:30.000 I remember seeing an advertisement, Life is Short, having an affair.
00:00:35.460 I was like, that sounds intriguing.
00:00:36.960 Sam and Nia are here today to share everything they didn't get to say in this documentary,
00:00:42.860 tell us the ways that they feel like Netflix did not portray them accurately,
00:00:47.100 and also to share the redemption that they see God working in and through their lives.
00:00:55.300 Without further ado, here they are.
00:01:00.000 Sam and Nia, thanks so much for taking the time to join me.
00:01:10.480 Can y'all tell us who you are and what you do?
00:01:13.400 You can go ahead.
00:01:14.160 Yeah, I'm Nia.
00:01:16.200 I'm Sam.
00:01:16.900 We're Sam and Nia.
00:01:17.580 Yeah, and we are parents to four little kiddos.
00:01:21.980 We do YouTube and blog our life and share what it looks like to live for the Lord,
00:01:27.060 raising small children.
00:01:28.860 And have been for 10 years.
00:01:30.580 Yeah, for quite a while.
00:01:31.880 Okay, so I was watching this Ashley Madison documentary on Netflix,
00:01:36.820 and so many people had told me, yeah, it's really interesting because a Christian couple is in it.
00:01:42.460 And that alone just kind of caught my attention.
00:01:44.240 I was like, okay, this is not typically something that I would watch, like a documentary about affairs.
00:01:49.740 It just seemed sketchy and scandalous.
00:01:54.080 But people were saying, you got to watch it.
00:01:55.620 It's really interesting.
00:01:56.300 I'm interested to see your commentary on it.
00:01:58.400 And I was watching it.
00:01:59.720 And then when you came on screen, I was like, why?
00:02:02.840 And my husband said the same thing.
00:02:04.140 We were like, why do we recognize his face?
00:02:07.060 And then you came on screen.
00:02:08.260 And I was like, I definitely recognize them.
00:02:10.740 There's some kind of like Christian couple that I've seen online.
00:02:14.380 And I could not pin it.
00:02:16.080 I could not figure it out until Frozen started playing.
00:02:19.360 And then I saw y'all in the car and the lip syncing video.
00:02:23.860 I was like, that is where I know them.
00:02:26.040 And I think I had seen y'all's Instagram before.
00:02:29.600 And then when I went to your Instagram,
00:02:32.560 and I was looking to see like if we have mutuals,
00:02:34.960 I saw that you had messaged me before.
00:02:37.300 I was like, oh my gosh.
00:02:38.140 Okay.
00:02:38.500 So we know who the other one is.
00:02:41.040 Maybe I can get them on the show to not just talk about that,
00:02:44.680 but to talk about your story.
00:02:47.420 And so that's why you're here.
00:02:49.200 I do want to talk about that documentary,
00:02:51.460 everything that led up to that.
00:02:53.360 But first, I just kind of want to back up.
00:02:55.540 And for everyone who didn't watch the documentary,
00:02:57.700 they have no idea.
00:02:59.380 How did y'all start doing what you do?
00:03:01.840 How did y'all first go viral and all that?
00:03:05.500 Yeah, well, when the movie Disney Frozen came out,
00:03:08.440 a lot of people got their start on YouTube and we were one of them.
00:03:11.100 Yeah.
00:03:11.740 Anything anybody was posting related to Frozen was basically doing well.
00:03:16.340 And me and I found ourselves in our car singing along to all the words
00:03:19.700 with our daughter who was three at the time.
00:03:22.200 Yeah.
00:03:22.380 And we're like, hey, we're good at this.
00:03:24.640 Let's film it.
00:03:25.420 I was a wedding photographer at a really nice camera set up.
00:03:29.480 And I threw my SLR on the dashboard and started filming us lip singing to the song.
00:03:35.040 And then it got how many views?
00:03:37.800 What's it at?
00:03:38.520 Like, dang it.
00:03:40.220 I don't know.
00:03:40.960 It got millions.
00:03:41.700 Tens of millions of views.
00:03:42.580 It's a lot of views.
00:03:43.700 It's y'all lip syncing.
00:03:44.600 It's super cute.
00:03:45.820 And then y'all didn't do it full time, though, right away.
00:03:48.320 Like, you were still working full time.
00:03:50.600 And then you had another video, though, that went viral when you told her that she was pregnant.
00:03:57.440 Right?
00:03:57.960 And that's kind of what launched the actual career of blogging, right?
00:04:03.380 Okay.
00:04:03.940 Well, tell us a little bit about that because not everyone knows.
00:04:06.680 You want to tell them, babe?
00:04:07.720 I mean, sure.
00:04:08.420 We had been trying to get pregnant for a while, over a year.
00:04:12.280 And he was working nights.
00:04:13.640 And I had texted him at night saying, I'm a couple weeks late on my period.
00:04:18.500 But, you know, I don't think anything.
00:04:20.020 But just letting you know.
00:04:20.860 And he, working as an ER nurse, had been kind of privy to telling women in the ER that they were pregnant before they knew.
00:04:31.660 And so he, I guess, just had this genius idea to test my pee.
00:04:36.620 And it all worked out.
00:04:39.040 He came home.
00:04:40.380 I had not flushed the toilet overnight.
00:04:42.220 He got a specimen, did the little dropper, and just totally shocked me with it.
00:04:47.340 Oh, my goodness.
00:04:47.940 And that went super viral.
00:04:49.040 And y'all had, like, news stations, media outlets trying to interview you.
00:04:54.520 And that's when you decided, okay, you can quit your job and do this full-time, right?
00:04:59.540 Yes.
00:05:00.460 Yeah.
00:05:00.920 And so that was what year?
00:05:03.600 2015.
00:05:04.440 That was 2015.
00:05:05.940 And so tell us a little bit about what it looked like from there.
00:05:09.380 How did y'all approach this whole family vlogging thing?
00:05:13.080 It was newer then.
00:05:13.920 Well, we had already been blogging for a year since that point.
00:05:19.400 But, yeah, we started doing it full-time after that, like you said.
00:05:24.620 It was just filming our daily lives, just, like, doing home videos and inviting people into our home, showing them, hey, this is what we look like raising kids.
00:05:34.820 Yeah.
00:05:34.980 You know, this is what our relationships look like.
00:05:38.280 And we also took them along to church with us.
00:05:40.560 They meet the people in our community and the people who watched us in the New York Christian community.
00:05:47.120 Yeah.
00:05:47.660 I mean, everything.
00:05:48.980 Laundry, the grocery store, church, you know, all the little ins and outs of raising a family were just out there for people to come along with us.
00:05:57.440 Did you ever feel – I've always wondered this about family vloggers or just, like, now it's more family influencers.
00:06:03.480 They're just kind of posting on Instagram.
00:06:05.780 Do you ever feel like you – when you're just doing mundane things or you're having normal everyday interactions with your children, like, you find yourself thinking about how to turn it into content?
00:06:18.020 Was that, like, ever a struggle that you couldn't just, like, enjoy being in the moment because everything turns into, like, a YouTube video?
00:06:26.480 It took a long time before I felt that way.
00:06:28.760 I didn't feel that way for a while.
00:06:30.560 I was just having so much fun.
00:06:32.180 Yeah.
00:06:32.340 We kind of grew up – I feel like our moms had, like, the big camcorders.
00:06:35.940 Those were popular when we were little.
00:06:37.480 So we were, like, I don't know, kind of used to, this is what you do with your family.
00:06:40.640 You film it.
00:06:41.120 We just happened to be posting it for people to see.
00:06:43.660 Did you feel that way?
00:06:44.900 Yeah, for sure.
00:06:45.940 I mean, I still feel that pressure, of course.
00:06:48.460 Yeah.
00:06:49.220 But the moment I, like, let that pressure go is, like, when we actually start posting good vlogs, though.
00:06:55.380 It was, like, people really just want to see the day-to-day stuff.
00:06:58.260 Yeah.
00:06:58.460 The people who don't have families, just having kids running around the house is really interesting and unique to them.
00:07:04.320 And I'm familiar.
00:07:05.420 Yeah.
00:07:05.840 But, yeah, there's definitely a lot of pressure just to make the mundane things interesting.
00:07:11.400 Yeah.
00:07:11.640 Yeah.
00:07:12.100 And how do you combat that?
00:07:14.140 Because I think that would be a little bit of a hard struggle.
00:07:17.560 I think I would feel a little guilty about that, not wanting to turn everything into, like, an opportunity for content.
00:07:23.980 But also, that's y'all's job.
00:07:26.100 Yeah.
00:07:26.280 And so, how do you figure that out?
00:07:29.780 Well, we stop posting less.
00:07:32.080 Yeah.
00:07:32.440 We stop posting as much.
00:07:33.480 Yeah, we do post less.
00:07:34.320 We post less.
00:07:35.000 I think we balance each other out.
00:07:36.380 A lot less than we used to.
00:07:37.460 Yeah.
00:07:37.880 I think we balance each other out, too.
00:07:39.360 Like, he is the creative eye, and he can see, like, people will want to see this.
00:07:43.680 This is drama.
00:07:44.360 This is funny.
00:07:44.900 This is that.
00:07:45.660 And there's times where I'm like, well, this could be private.
00:07:47.740 Let's just, you know.
00:07:48.660 And sometimes we'll film something, and it never sees the light of day.
00:07:51.400 Yeah.
00:07:51.800 And sometimes we just decide, like, this is not something the kids will want to look back on.
00:07:56.200 You know, we just kind of talk and feel it out and see what feels natural in the moment.
00:07:59.960 Yeah.
00:08:00.440 We were also, I don't know, I would say somewhat immature and childish when we first got started.
00:08:06.780 So, it wasn't like we saw, oh, this is going to be unhealthy for our family.
00:08:11.200 Yeah, it took a while.
00:08:11.620 It was more like, hey, this is going to be fun.
00:08:13.820 But anyway, yeah.
00:08:15.380 And the internet's changed.
00:08:17.120 I think that a lot of people 10 years ago just didn't think about the potential harms of, like, who's online, the crazy people, the weirdos, and all of that.
00:08:27.520 And I think people have gotten a lot more protective, rightfully so, of their kids, their experiences, their interactions, their images.
00:08:34.300 Because, unfortunately, like, people are just crazy out there.
00:08:38.080 And y'all probably know that better than anyone at this point after the documentary.
00:08:42.900 And so, how do you decide, okay, what am I going to show of my kids?
00:08:49.000 Because for me as a mom, like, that scares me, you know.
00:08:53.400 Yeah.
00:08:53.700 Some people, I think a lot of that fear is unfounded, to be honest.
00:08:58.000 You do?
00:08:58.480 Yeah.
00:08:59.200 Like, I've never felt like I've had anything to hide besides what we'll talk about soon.
00:09:04.380 But I just feel like we're all living the same experience.
00:09:08.360 We all, our kids all love to do the same things.
00:09:11.260 They're all doing the same things.
00:09:13.520 I don't know.
00:09:14.420 I get that some people have those kind of fears.
00:09:16.720 But I've seen my mom have similar fears.
00:09:20.920 And I've never seen any of your fears actually come to fruition.
00:09:25.040 So, it's just like, I don't know how founded these fears are.
00:09:29.560 Okay.
00:09:30.360 So, you got approached by Netflix at some point.
00:09:35.820 And I'm guessing in the past couple years, approached you about a documentary about Ashley Madison.
00:09:44.000 Some people have no idea.
00:09:45.560 Ashley Madison is a website for people, for married people who wanted to have affairs.
00:09:51.960 So, tell us first how you got approached by Netflix.
00:09:55.180 And then we'll kind of back up from there and talk about why they even approached you and why y'all were involved in the documentary.
00:10:01.520 Did you get a phone call, an email?
00:10:03.100 What was it?
00:10:03.660 We got an email.
00:10:05.800 We actually got an email from a different production company before that.
00:10:11.740 And thankfully, we, you know, just, I don't know, just through prayer and discussions, we said no to that.
00:10:16.480 And then, and then the production company for the Netflix documentary came along.
00:10:20.500 And so, it was weird because the first one was like, whoa, what is this?
00:10:24.120 You know, we were so shocked and kind of excited and leery.
00:10:27.980 But then a second one quickly came along.
00:10:29.620 So, we're like, okay, well, we've already kind of processed through, like, how big this could be.
00:10:33.020 And just, you know, lots of prayer and conversations with our friends, family, community.
00:10:38.540 And they just asked us if we would be willing to share our story.
00:10:42.160 They did not tell us up front what the streaming service was.
00:10:44.780 Just that it was a well-known streaming service and kind of kept some of that quiet.
00:10:48.420 But we had a lot of preliminary discussions with them.
00:10:51.720 We shared our whole entire story.
00:10:54.080 I think it took two hours to lay it all out there and just, I don't know, get comfortable, see if it was even a right fit.
00:11:00.480 And from there, we just felt like the Lord was giving us, like, this call to share, share what He had done in our life, no matter how it might end up.
00:11:09.380 We didn't mind sharing our story.
00:11:11.760 Our biggest concern was, will Netflix actually tell our story?
00:11:15.380 Will Redemption come across at the end?
00:11:18.740 Will the true story come through?
00:11:20.620 Yeah.
00:11:21.000 Do you feel like it did?
00:11:22.560 For the most part, there were some things that were twisted that still bother me today.
00:11:27.400 In effect, I actually just yesterday saw another comment related to it.
00:11:31.600 It's just like, oh my gosh.
00:11:33.040 Yeah.
00:11:33.260 For the most part, yes, though.
00:11:35.540 I mean, overall, there's a few things.
00:11:38.520 We'll get into that because I am interested to hear what you guys think could have been conveyed better, more accurately.
00:11:44.300 But a lot of people haven't seen the documentary.
00:11:46.400 They don't have Netflix.
00:11:47.560 They have no idea what we're talking about.
00:11:50.880 And so I would love for you all to share your story here.
00:11:55.800 If we could go back to how this all started.
00:11:59.820 How did you get introduced to Ashley Madison?
00:12:04.040 Just sitting at work one night.
00:12:05.560 I was an ER nurse working the night shift.
00:12:07.660 Saw an ad on Yahoo News.
00:12:10.740 The slogan is, life is short, I have an affair.
00:12:14.560 Looked interesting, intriguing, as I put it in the documentary.
00:12:20.000 But I clicked it and signed up.
00:12:24.960 And how long have y'all been married at that point?
00:12:27.960 Two years.
00:12:29.720 Three years.
00:12:30.560 Yeah, three years.
00:12:31.340 We've been married three years.
00:12:32.580 And so y'all are still kind of newlyweds at this point.
00:12:34.880 Yeah, we were newlyweds.
00:12:35.300 But you already felt like in the documentary, or at least in the trailer for the documentary, you said that you felt like life was mundane.
00:12:41.880 So do you feel like you were looking for, I don't know, change to mix things up, to make things exciting?
00:12:49.460 Yeah, I was working as a nurse, and I had chosen the wrong path for me, for sure.
00:12:56.320 It was definitely an ill-suited job for me, profession.
00:13:00.660 I spent six years trying to become a nurse, and I was working in the ER, just showing up night after night, just depressed and telling myself, turn this car around, don't go back in another time, don't do it.
00:13:11.040 Just because it wasn't what you felt called to do, or what you were equipped to do, just the wrong path.
00:13:16.440 I'm a creative, and there's no room for creativity in the hospital, not even the ER.
00:13:21.520 It's just strictly protocol, and cover your butt, make sure you don't get a lawsuit.
00:13:26.440 It's like, that's what they tell you before you go on your shift.
00:13:28.700 Right.
00:13:29.340 Protect yourself.
00:13:31.000 Yeah.
00:13:31.880 Yeah.
00:13:32.140 But anyway, that's just part of the story.
00:13:34.000 You know, we got married, the novelty wore off, we had a child, and she was pregnant again.
00:13:43.860 No excuse, I mean, there's just a lot of things.
00:13:46.040 Of course, I have some of my own personal issues.
00:13:49.660 Just a lot of things led me to wanting other women's attention.
00:14:02.140 And you talk about, in the documentary, Nia, how you were trying so hard to just, like, be the perfect wife.
00:14:13.180 So, in your mind at this time, three years into marriage, did you feel like things were monotonous, or did things still feel kind of, like, fun and new to you?
00:14:23.780 No, I think there was some monotony, but I'm, I kind of thrive on that.
00:14:27.760 I like routine, I like schedules, and so I didn't think anything, it was, like, the dream for me to wake up and take care of a family every day.
00:14:35.300 And so, no, I didn't, I mean, yes, I saw it, it was there, but it wasn't, like, a negative thing for me.
00:14:40.080 And I did not put two and two together that it was negative for him until after the fact.
00:14:45.780 Yeah, I thought things were good.
00:14:47.520 We had a great relationship, you know, we still got along, we flirted, we were intimate.
00:14:52.260 We hadn't, like, I guess, regular issues.
00:14:54.520 It's not like we didn't have any issues or swept everything under the rug, we just, you know, we still had a good relationship, despite what he was doing behind my back.
00:15:02.760 Yeah, and you guys were Christians, right, at the beginning of your marriage, and so you knew when you were looking at Ashley Madison, you felt like this was sin, and you felt like, oh, I know I shouldn't do this.
00:15:16.340 Is that, was that your kind of thinking?
00:15:17.840 Oh, yeah, I mean, I had done multiple things before this point, so this was kind of a slow fade into outright signing up for a site that says, this is for having an affair.
00:15:31.140 And you, so there, the infidelity predated Ashley Madison, correct?
00:15:36.300 Correct.
00:15:37.120 And when did that start within marriage?
00:15:39.420 It was, it was definitely a slow fade.
00:15:46.820 It's kind of hard to pinpoint when it started.
00:15:49.900 I used to tell Nia a little bit of flirting is okay.
00:15:52.700 I think maybe it started there.
00:15:54.220 In nursing school, I was like, babe, it's just friendly play with the opposite sex.
00:15:58.600 And I would even encourage her, what you don't know, it doesn't hurt.
00:16:01.480 What I don't know, it doesn't hurt.
00:16:03.640 I mean, a little bit's okay.
00:16:05.460 I think it started with stupid thoughts like that.
00:16:07.760 I would call myself a Christian, but definitely a lukewarm Christian, one step in, one foot in, one foot out.
00:16:15.000 Right.
00:16:15.540 And that's, I mean, that's how sin starts for everyone, that it's just like the innocent stuff first, and then you kind of just start getting callous towards sin in general.
00:16:26.100 So when you made the next step to sign up for Ashley Madison, what did that look like?
00:16:34.200 What did the next step on Ashley Madison look like?
00:16:37.760 Messaging women, trying to get their attention.
00:16:43.220 But it was mostly the attention that you felt like you were after.
00:16:46.120 It was, because once I actually, I never really, I never got to, I never did meet with any women through Ashley Madison.
00:16:54.360 But even when I did meet with other women outside of Ashley Madison, once I got their attention and the chase, the challenge was over, I was met with this new challenge that I was not even really thinking about or considering.
00:17:07.800 Like, now what do I do?
00:17:09.860 Like, this isn't me.
00:17:11.280 Like, the chase was fun, but I don't really care to go much further than this.
00:17:17.020 I don't know.
00:17:17.680 This is all but just personal stuff.
00:17:19.360 It was just a really stupid, trying to discover, I guess, who I was and what life was.
00:17:25.660 I was just so confused and all over the place, not really scripturally grounded at the time.
00:17:34.940 And you had no idea.
00:17:36.320 You didn't have any indication that this was going on.
00:17:39.060 I would say, like, there were red flags and I had, like, suspicions.
00:17:43.160 I would ask him certain things, but I, myself, I convinced myself and he convinced me, too, that all of my suspicions were unfounded.
00:17:50.800 And so, I guess, yes, I was shocked, so, so shocked when he eventually, you know, confessed everything to me.
00:17:57.480 But also a little bit of relief because I did have some suspicions.
00:18:00.900 I had a feeling something was off and hidden.
00:18:04.940 And, yeah, y'all talk about in the documentary how things kind of blew up for y'all in, you know, a positive way from y'all's perspective.
00:18:12.980 Like, when you started going viral, when you started vlogging, and then you started vlogging full time, that's when maybe the excitement of Ashley Madison started to wear off.
00:18:21.600 And you got off the site for a period of time, right?
00:18:25.840 It's funny you say that because that's where it was twisted in the documentary.
00:18:29.420 Oh, okay.
00:18:29.600 Yeah, I had deleted Ashley Madison four months before YouTube even came along.
00:18:35.060 Okay, gotcha.
00:18:35.880 And I had not been straying outside my marriage at all.
00:18:38.880 As far as how the public saw me, I was holding secrets, but I wasn't doing anything behind his back.
00:18:44.260 People think they were seeing two sides of me while watching YouTube, but it's not the case.
00:18:48.520 Okay.
00:18:48.960 So, you stopped all infidelity, including Ashley Madison, before YouTube.
00:18:55.000 And what caused that?
00:18:56.340 Like, was there a conviction, or why did you decide to stop?
00:19:00.560 Well, Ashley Madison completely failed me.
00:19:03.220 It was just a full disappointment as part of it.
00:19:06.500 And it was just...
00:19:07.000 Just because you realized, oh, this attention isn't giving me the lasting satisfaction that I'm looking for?
00:19:13.720 Yeah, that and women weren't responding.
00:19:16.340 Like, as many women as were supposedly on there, none of them were giving me attention.
00:19:20.780 So, it was just like, okay, I guess, whatever.
00:19:23.220 It was disappointing.
00:19:24.560 But anyway, fast forward a month or so, we discovered a church.
00:19:29.340 My mom found a church.
00:19:30.880 And we got plugged into this amazing community.
00:19:33.420 And I'm sitting in church one day with my family.
00:19:36.940 And the sermon is just speaking to me.
00:19:39.080 And I'm just, like, overwhelmed with conviction of all the stuff I've been doing behind his back.
00:19:44.900 And the pastor said, if anybody needs a prayer, if you feel like you're in a desert place and you want freedom from that or whatever, that's all in the book.
00:19:54.660 The whole description came out of the top of my head.
00:19:56.180 But I said, if you want prayer, go to the back of the church.
00:19:59.520 And at the moment, I finally just surrendered my life to God.
00:20:02.500 And I got up for, you know, an altar call, which is something I would have never done before.
00:20:08.460 I felt God just completely got me out of my seat.
00:20:11.040 Went past Nia, just basically confessing my weakness and me surrendering to God for, like, the first time in front of her like that.
00:20:18.820 And I go to the back and I'm just in tears and the pastor says an amazing prayer over me.
00:20:23.960 Just, I tell him how much I hate my job, how I feel worthless as a father, as a husband.
00:20:29.360 And life is just, I don't like life.
00:20:31.960 I feel useless as a part of God's kingdom.
00:20:34.800 And he says this amazing prayer over me and I feel like it completely changed my life.
00:20:38.480 I walked out of that building for the first time with, like, hope ahead of me.
00:20:42.080 And then for a couple weeks after that prayer, YouTube came along.
00:20:49.880 And I'm like, whoa, God answered my prayer real fast.
00:20:53.200 Like, he gave me this creative outlet.
00:20:55.400 That's what I was asking for.
00:20:56.920 My creativity.
00:20:58.060 I also felt like I wasn't doing anything for his kingdom.
00:21:00.060 And I felt like immediately that this was going to be our ministry to talk about God to the world.
00:21:05.200 And that's immediately what I did, even in the description of the frozen lip sync.
00:21:09.440 I immediately put Network Jesus Followers.
00:21:11.980 I put Where We Go to Church and all this good stuff.
00:21:14.620 Because I was just so excited to finally be able to be doing something for the Lord.
00:21:18.480 That's when my life turned around.
00:21:19.800 It started as a church.
00:21:20.940 Right.
00:21:21.420 Okay.
00:21:21.820 So you had that conviction and you realized all that stuff that you had been doing and fidelity couldn't do it anymore.
00:21:28.080 Did you feel at that point, I'm going to have to tell my wife?
00:21:32.280 At that point?
00:21:33.140 Mm-hmm.
00:21:34.700 No.
00:21:35.560 I wasn't going to.
00:21:36.500 I was at this.
00:21:38.340 Yeah.
00:21:39.440 I was keeping all the secrets, you know, to my grave.
00:21:42.800 I was just like, you would never be able to handle this stuff.
00:21:45.700 I'm walking it away, never to revisit again.
00:21:48.820 A guy also came into my life at the time that was paramount that I fell to mention.
00:21:52.900 He just said, hey, man, you want to go grab a cup of coffee?
00:21:55.140 And for the first time in my life, a man asked me out for a cup of coffee.
00:21:59.240 And, I mean, my dad had done something like this.
00:22:01.640 And so he sat down and really got to know me beneath the surface.
00:22:04.400 And that was life-changing for me, that another man cared to know who I was.
00:22:09.420 And so he discipled me, helped me become more like Jesus, helped me be a better dad, better husband.
00:22:14.940 YouTube came along and I decided all these secrets would go to my grave.
00:22:18.240 I wasn't even going to tell him, my discipleship partner.
00:22:20.560 I told him everything except that.
00:22:21.940 And, yeah, then we start vlogging and keeping all these secrets.
00:22:30.240 And Nash and Madison came along, or the breach.
00:22:32.960 And God's like, well, if you're not going to tell anybody, I'm going to tell everybody.
00:22:36.480 He kind of started the process of setting me free.
00:22:39.680 Did you ever, before you found out about the breach, were there ever convictions like,
00:22:45.920 oh, I need to say it, no, you can't say it.
00:22:48.000 Oh, I need to say it, no, you can't say it.
00:22:50.480 Or were you just resolute, steadily resolute, no, I am never, ever telling anyone.
00:22:57.500 The latter.
00:22:59.860 It didn't even feel really like a struggle.
00:23:02.420 It was like, this is between me and God.
00:23:05.460 The only part that felt like a struggle was coming to the Lord.
00:23:08.520 And like that coming between my relationship with Him.
00:23:11.620 Like those secrets.
00:23:12.800 Right.
00:23:13.320 I was like, man, God, why can't we get past this together and be behind us?
00:23:17.200 And so there's not like this little thing between you and I.
00:23:20.420 But it was always there, you know.
00:23:23.240 That darkness in me was always there in my relationship with Him.
00:23:26.260 With Nia, as far as I was concerned, I thought I was protecting her of that dark sign.
00:23:31.220 And I didn't want my sins to spill over into her life and to affect her.
00:23:36.180 So I was going to do everything I possibly could to protect her from it.
00:23:39.660 Yeah.
00:23:39.840 Now, obviously, you didn't know what had happened with the infidelity.
00:23:43.420 But did you notice a spiritual change in him after that Sunday?
00:23:46.480 Oh, yeah.
00:23:47.100 Immediately.
00:23:47.840 And what were your thoughts?
00:23:48.580 As soon as we got in the car, I was just like, oh, I just thought this is what I've always wanted.
00:23:53.380 This is the Sam I fell in love with.
00:23:55.160 I mean, he was a Christian when I met him.
00:23:56.660 We did Bible study together.
00:23:57.800 We prayed together.
00:23:59.700 I felt like I had gotten like my boyfriend back in a way.
00:24:02.680 I mean, he was my husband.
00:24:03.500 We had two kids at the time.
00:24:04.580 But I was so excited.
00:24:06.120 I was living for the Lord.
00:24:07.100 I wasn't having the same side journey or whatever that he was doing.
00:24:11.200 And I was just ready to put like all like, you know, both feet in our whole family and
00:24:17.320 just like dive into church and community and living for the Lord, showing it to the public,
00:24:23.180 all of it.
00:24:24.000 OK, so you're just seeing this as this is just kind of an almost random, maybe not random,
00:24:29.920 but in earthly speak, like a random providential moment of change for him and everything is on a
00:24:37.980 better path.
00:24:39.120 You had no idea what was going on beneath the surface.
00:24:42.000 Yeah, I knew he had some depression like with his job.
00:24:45.140 He didn't like it.
00:24:45.860 I knew how creative he was.
00:24:47.100 I could see that being stifled.
00:24:49.660 So it wasn't too random to me.
00:24:52.220 I thought it was timely as far as the emotional side of it goes or the mental side of it goes.
00:24:56.980 And I was just excited to move forward.
00:24:59.780 I was so excited.
00:25:01.280 Yeah.
00:25:01.700 And so y'all saw YouTube as an answer to prayer.
00:25:05.560 And obviously it provided a way out of your job, which is you said was really depressing
00:25:10.260 you.
00:25:10.820 And how long into the successful YouTube vlogging did y'all go to this conference in Seattle
00:25:17.580 where you found out about the breach?
00:25:20.680 It was about a year and a half.
00:25:22.920 OK, so not very long at all.
00:25:24.620 No, not too long.
00:25:25.240 And at this point, y'all have how many subscribers and followers?
00:25:27.820 Do you know?
00:25:29.940 I really don't remember.
00:25:31.660 I mean, 800,000, 600,000.
00:25:35.140 A lot.
00:25:35.860 A ton.
00:25:36.460 Yeah.
00:25:36.680 And definitely enough to go like speak at this event.
00:25:41.000 Right.
00:25:41.480 As featured.
00:25:42.920 Yeah.
00:25:43.240 Yeah.
00:25:44.120 And so y'all are in the airport and you said, did you find out, was it on Twitter about
00:25:49.860 the Ashley Madison breach?
00:25:51.700 Yes.
00:25:52.080 OK.
00:25:52.720 And for people who don't know, let me just explain this.
00:25:55.440 There was a data breach for Ashley Madison where the names of the people who had signed
00:25:59.980 up for these accounts trying to pursue adultery had been leaked.
00:26:05.380 And when you found out about this, you were like, oh, no.
00:26:09.280 I wonder if my name is going to get out there.
00:26:11.580 And it's interesting because if you hadn't had YouTube, I don't know if it ever would
00:26:18.420 have gone on to Twitter.
00:26:20.800 It might have just been brushed under the rug.
00:26:23.980 So tell us about that.
00:26:25.480 Tell us about searching Twitter frantically, trying to figure out if your name was a part
00:26:29.340 of the leak.
00:26:29.820 It was maybe a day or two before going to the airport that day to go to Seattle for
00:26:38.880 a vlogger fair.
00:26:40.460 And I'm searching Twitter.
00:26:41.800 My brother's telling us about the impact team and they gave Ashley Madison 30 days to
00:26:48.560 shut down and all this stuff.
00:26:49.700 And he's like, well, it's time's up.
00:26:51.220 They're about to release all the data.
00:26:52.820 Your brother was saying this?
00:26:54.420 My brother.
00:26:55.020 Yeah.
00:26:55.180 And why was he interested in that?
00:26:57.100 Like, why was he saying that?
00:26:58.880 That's in the book.
00:26:59.580 But he was just a news guy.
00:27:02.520 He just updated the family.
00:27:03.700 So it was just random.
00:27:04.780 It was random.
00:27:05.600 He's definitely the family member that sends the news articles.
00:27:09.620 Yeah.
00:27:09.820 Okay.
00:27:10.060 So this, yeah.
00:27:10.900 He's the news guy.
00:27:11.640 What year was this?
00:27:13.140 2015.
00:27:14.340 Okay.
00:27:14.820 I feel like I vaguely remember.
00:27:16.940 Something else big was going on at the time.
00:27:18.920 I think maybe kind of overshadowed some of it.
00:27:21.340 I can't remember what it was.
00:27:22.460 Probably the election.
00:27:23.460 I was about to say because it was the next year.
00:27:25.760 Oh, okay.
00:27:26.960 Okay.
00:27:27.640 So you got that text and I'm sure like your heart sank.
00:27:32.380 Yeah.
00:27:33.760 Well, first I thought I had deleted the account, hard deleted it and paid.
00:27:37.940 I had remembered that, okay, I think pretty certain I paid extra to have my account hard
00:27:42.200 deleted and it had been so many years.
00:27:44.640 At 2013, I deleted the account.
00:27:46.820 This was 2015 when the dump came out.
00:27:49.060 I was like, there's no way like my data from that long ago would still be in their database.
00:27:54.520 Which we found out in the documentary that even if you paid extra to have all of your
00:27:58.860 data deleted, that they hung on to it.
00:28:01.020 And it was just a scam, which is awful.
00:28:03.540 And they hung on to everybody's data from the beginning of time.
00:28:06.240 Yes.
00:28:06.880 Yeah.
00:28:07.160 So it was a, it was definitely a huge shocker.
00:28:10.340 It was just from a very random account and he's like, Hey, am I the first one to scoop
00:28:15.560 that Sam Raider was in the Ashley Madison breach?
00:28:17.800 And I was just, wow.
00:28:20.700 Which means you had used your real first and last name when you signed up for an account.
00:28:25.300 I did.
00:28:26.340 Yeah.
00:28:27.460 Did you just think that you would never get caught or did it just not really cross your
00:28:31.200 mind?
00:28:33.240 I was living so recklessly, like so recklessly, like that was nothing.
00:28:37.900 People were so surprised by that, but I was very reckless with my life at the time.
00:28:42.620 And then I didn't care about a lot of stuff.
00:28:44.700 Obviously I was risking losing my entire family, my career, not just on Ashley Madison, but
00:28:49.380 other things.
00:28:51.420 And when you're depressed, you're like, Oh, whatever.
00:28:54.380 Yeah.
00:28:54.920 But yeah.
00:28:56.060 Okay.
00:28:56.420 So you found that tweet and then was it at that point that you realized, okay, I got to
00:29:01.440 tell Nia or were you still hoping, okay, maybe this is not going to go viral.
00:29:08.180 Maybe more people aren't going to pick it up.
00:29:09.880 Well, I knew right at that point I had to tell Nia.
00:29:14.160 First, I thought my life was completely over and all I had left on my side was Nia if she
00:29:19.160 would forgive me for this stupid website.
00:29:23.300 And so we're walking to a Chili's restaurant and I decide I have to tell Nia before her
00:29:28.160 phone tells her herself.
00:29:30.680 So we sit down and I just tell her about Ashley Madison and that was it.
00:29:34.800 There was nothing else.
00:29:36.040 I never met with anybody.
00:29:37.300 I had a few conversations, but that was it.
00:29:39.020 It was just a curiosity.
00:29:40.240 I had it for a couple of weeks and deleted the account, just minimize it as much as I
00:29:45.020 possibly could.
00:29:47.320 So I could keep Nia on my side at that time when I knew the world was about to be against
00:29:52.800 me.
00:29:53.600 And what was your reaction when you heard that?
00:29:56.480 Oh, I was so shocked and mad and embarrassed.
00:29:59.200 I was just, there's a little twinge of relief because like I said, I had had some suspicions.
00:30:05.960 So I was like, okay, this is what it was.
00:30:07.800 I wasn't, you know, I wasn't crazy, I guess.
00:30:11.540 And, but overall I was just, I was just so mad.
00:30:14.300 Not just that he had tried to betray me, but just, I'm thankful that he used his, his information
00:30:19.300 because now it's all out in the light.
00:30:20.720 And if he hadn't, you know, who knows, but I was, I was just so embarrassed that he did
00:30:25.880 that.
00:30:26.240 You know, we have a family, we had this career.
00:30:27.920 I was so excited.
00:30:28.700 I loved what we were doing and like everything was at risk, not just the family.
00:30:33.660 Really, that wasn't in my mind.
00:30:34.940 I loved him.
00:30:35.440 I knew I would eventually, I would forgive him, but just everything else that was, that
00:30:38.620 we were working towards and stuff that he would risk it for something so lame and dumb.
00:30:43.040 I was just so annoyed and mad.
00:30:50.720 And you said that you loved him and knew that you would forgive him.
00:30:59.960 Not everyone would have that feeling.
00:31:01.480 There would be some people who at that moment would say, nope, that's the end of that.
00:31:06.200 Whether he sent messages or whether he actually did something or not, what made you know that,
00:31:11.480 yeah, we're going to get past this at some point?
00:31:14.760 I just, I don't know.
00:31:15.780 So even before I knew anything, I just knew that Sam loved me, that we had a good, like
00:31:22.720 a real deep love.
00:31:24.760 It wasn't, there wasn't anything surface level about it.
00:31:27.600 When things were good, it was really, really good.
00:31:30.420 And I mean, emotionally, like the connection that we had, I knew deep down he loved the Lord.
00:31:35.180 And at that moment with, when it was just Ashley Madison, as angry as I was, and I still was
00:31:42.080 ready to just have his back, be a united front, be a team, and just say like, obviously this
00:31:48.340 is something we're going to have to like discuss and figure out.
00:31:50.860 Like now I know he has curiosities that I was unaware of, I guess.
00:31:57.760 Yeah.
00:31:58.280 I just, I just knew that we would make it through that.
00:32:00.780 Okay.
00:32:01.180 That was while y'all were still at the airport to go to Seattle, y'all hadn't even gotten
00:32:05.260 to your destination yet.
00:32:07.440 So the plane ride, I think you said in the documentary, you were mad.
00:32:11.700 You didn't really want to talk about it.
00:32:13.100 But by the time you landed, you had decided, okay, we're going to figure this out.
00:32:17.400 And you kind of felt like, I thought this was interesting and a very insightful part
00:32:21.880 of it when you said that you felt like, wow, I am an awesome wife because I am going to forgive
00:32:28.800 him and I'm going to get past this and we're going to just keep doing what we do.
00:32:33.560 Can you talk about that a little bit more?
00:32:35.140 Yeah.
00:32:36.300 I mean, that is how I felt.
00:32:37.540 And I had recently within the last year or two read a book, A Woman After God's Own
00:32:42.620 Heart.
00:32:43.020 You might be familiar with it.
00:32:44.160 And I had learned so much about being a godly wife through that book and just the practices
00:32:50.240 that you, that you practice on a day-to-day basis, you know, forgiving the little things,
00:32:54.680 putting your family first, God, husband, and children.
00:32:57.520 A lot of people have that backwards that it's God, children, maybe God's not even on their
00:33:03.020 list, but even Christians, I think, have God's children, then husband.
00:33:06.060 And I had just been practicing and really diving into this, even like with my girlfriends
00:33:09.840 and stuff.
00:33:10.840 So I just kind of felt like he describes it as when he met me, that it was like game day
00:33:16.400 because he was like a flirter and he was just going to like win me over.
00:33:19.940 And this is how, that's kind of how I look at this.
00:33:21.660 It's like game day.
00:33:22.400 This is what I've been learning about.
00:33:24.040 How could I, how could I be pouring so much energy and heart into learning something and
00:33:27.880 then just not even practice it or at least try?
00:33:30.240 Mm-hmm.
00:33:30.960 Mm-hmm.
00:33:31.660 And then by the time you got to this conference, I think I remember y'all saying that it felt
00:33:37.000 like people were looking at y'all funny.
00:33:40.180 Like, it's like the news had started to spread at this point, right?
00:33:43.700 Mm-hmm.
00:33:45.100 Yeah.
00:33:45.460 We were sitting in a, what do you call it?
00:33:47.220 Like a class.
00:33:48.140 A conference room.
00:33:48.840 A conference room full of other YouTube creators that we hadn't met in person.
00:33:53.240 A couple of them we had.
00:33:54.140 But, you know, people that like we were, I was looking forward to networking with, getting
00:33:57.400 to know them.
00:33:57.980 They're kind of like, you know, internet friends only at this point.
00:34:01.000 And you can just kind of see like people slowly starting to like look our direction.
00:34:07.300 Yeah.
00:34:07.460 Like people's, the phones were starting to blow up.
00:34:09.680 The news was starting to break.
00:34:10.840 And you could just kind of tell people were like, I mean, it was obvious to me.
00:34:15.180 Yeah.
00:34:16.000 Even if it wasn't, we were still.
00:34:17.540 Yeah.
00:34:17.800 Maybe we were just so nervous, but it felt pretty obvious.
00:34:21.060 Okay.
00:34:21.380 So it became headline news and I think what made it even, um, juicier for a lot of people
00:34:27.780 is that you guys are public Christians.
00:34:30.460 Did you feel like some of these media outlets and I don't know, maybe competitors felt like,
00:34:37.160 yes, we got them.
00:34:38.620 See, they're just hypocrites.
00:34:40.100 They act like they're Christians, but behind closed doors, they're totally different people.
00:34:44.580 Like, did you feel that from some of the people reporting on the story?
00:34:51.380 Maybe not in those terms, but I like how you put it though.
00:34:56.820 But definitely.
00:34:58.500 Yeah.
00:34:59.060 I mean, yeah, immediately it's like, oh great, here we go.
00:35:01.460 I'm falling into the category of what the world would call a hypocritical Christian.
00:35:05.840 And that's pretty devastating, especially since I saw this as my ministry to reflect Jesus.
00:35:14.540 Right.
00:35:16.100 Okay.
00:35:16.600 Tell me what happened after that, because it wasn't just Ashley Madison.
00:35:21.700 So how did things evolve from there?
00:35:26.740 You want to go?
00:35:28.320 Sure.
00:35:30.540 Sure.
00:35:31.180 Okay.
00:35:31.580 So the Ashley Madison thing came out.
00:35:33.200 We made a video.
00:35:34.200 I announced to our audience, you know, basically all the lies I told Nia repeated all the same
00:35:40.800 lies to our audience and that's when the convictions started to really just like eat away at me,
00:35:48.100 weigh on me big time, real heavily.
00:35:50.960 And then my brother sends out a tweet after I post the video and says, why are you still
00:35:55.500 lying, bro?
00:35:56.260 Or a text, not a tweet.
00:35:57.700 Oh, a text.
00:35:58.300 Yeah.
00:35:59.860 And why did he say that?
00:36:01.040 I think he said it because I lied to our audience and said Nia had already known about
00:36:06.580 the account.
00:36:07.720 Oh.
00:36:08.720 And he was referring to that.
00:36:09.860 Why are you still lying?
00:36:10.820 Like Nia didn't know about the account.
00:36:12.760 And so there was that.
00:36:13.760 I was telling other lies were kind of starting to come up in this car ride that Nia and I
00:36:19.880 were taking back to our Airbnb from the conference the next day.
00:36:22.940 So you made that video while you were still at the conference, basically telling everyone,
00:36:27.060 yeah, this happened a while ago, but I never cheated on her.
00:36:30.380 It was just the accounts.
00:36:32.560 It was just conversations and she already knew about it.
00:36:35.980 Your brother texted you.
00:36:37.100 So this is all happening in a matter of like a couple of days.
00:36:39.960 So y'all are driving back to the Airbnb in Seattle and you just felt what did you feel
00:36:46.060 pressure, conviction?
00:36:47.300 Why did you feel like you had to keep going with your confession?
00:36:50.780 Yeah.
00:36:51.260 So I'm still lying to Nia after all these years.
00:36:53.900 I'm like, I never intended to still be lying about this stupid account and my other things.
00:37:00.260 After so many years, I thought it'd be in my past and would be done with it.
00:37:03.780 I was living for the Lord.
00:37:04.740 I had a close relationship with him and I'm still lying to my wife and it's eating away
00:37:09.700 at me.
00:37:10.020 So we pull over the car.
00:37:11.020 I call my pastor and I'm telling him, I'm saying, bro, can I just tell you more that
00:37:17.340 went on behind Nia's back?
00:37:19.320 And it'd be okay for me just to tell you.
00:37:22.080 Is this the same guy who discipled you originally who asked you to go get coffee or was it someone
00:37:27.140 else?
00:37:27.500 Someone else.
00:37:28.120 The actual pastor.
00:37:29.320 The pastor who had prayed over you when you walked down the aisle?
00:37:32.380 Or is this different?
00:37:33.040 Different pastor.
00:37:33.320 Different pastor.
00:37:34.120 Okay.
00:37:34.360 Nothing wrong with that.
00:37:35.160 Nothing wrong with that.
00:37:36.800 I mean, yeah.
00:37:37.380 All three of those guys.
00:37:38.380 Yes.
00:37:38.560 God used all of them.
00:37:39.880 So I was just curious if he was the same guy as either of those.
00:37:43.560 He's the guy in the documentary.
00:37:45.260 Pastor Bo.
00:37:46.020 Right.
00:37:46.520 If you saw that.
00:37:47.460 Okay.
00:37:48.100 So you called him.
00:37:49.740 You just felt this pressure, which I think was the Holy Spirit just convicting you, telling
00:37:53.780 you, you got to do it.
00:37:54.640 You got to do it.
00:37:55.460 And you were hoping that the pastor would tell you, oh, no, you don't have to tell her.
00:37:59.580 Yeah.
00:38:00.080 Right.
00:38:01.060 Well, I mean, that's what sin does.
00:38:02.880 Sin does make us stupid.
00:38:04.080 Sin makes people stupid.
00:38:05.260 Absolutely.
00:38:05.600 Definitely.
00:38:05.920 And so you were thinking that you would be able to keep it a secret and you were almost
00:38:10.940 like hoping for his blessing.
00:38:13.000 Yes.
00:38:13.320 But he did not stray away from just getting straight to the truth.
00:38:17.820 He was just like, brother, live in truth.
00:38:20.500 And when he said live in truth, which is the title of our book, that was probably the most
00:38:24.860 impactful three lines of my life.
00:38:26.820 I was just like, wow.
00:38:28.380 It's like God just gave me this foretaste of freedom for my secrets.
00:38:32.540 And it like tasted amazing.
00:38:34.420 And he was like, oh, you have to just tell me everything if you want the full portion
00:38:38.340 of it.
00:38:39.180 And I felt God was just leading me to this point all my life.
00:38:42.080 Like nobody had ever told me to live in truth.
00:38:44.240 I didn't even know that was a possibility.
00:38:47.380 And what?
00:38:48.140 You're so cute.
00:38:48.920 I just like to hear.
00:38:49.960 I like hearing it.
00:38:50.800 So I get back and I was like, OK, yeah, I guess for the first time in my life, I feel
00:38:56.620 like this is not only possible to do, but necessary.
00:38:58.980 So like it was a huge, huge moment for me.
00:39:02.940 And so I get in my car and just basically take off these shackles that had been binding
00:39:09.380 me or my snare, as I describe it, and pulling off these ropes that have been snaring me.
00:39:13.800 And as I'm pulling them off, they're all landing on Nia and snaring her.
00:39:17.340 And it's just one of the most profoundly unfair moments of my life and most painful yet freeing,
00:39:25.760 very, whatever.
00:39:28.160 And you mean unfair because now the wife that you love is having to deal with the consequences
00:39:35.280 of your sin.
00:39:36.360 Right.
00:39:37.160 And because I'm living in freedom and I'm like feeling amazing.
00:39:41.480 I'm like literally ball and chains are coming off my ankles and my wife is over there getting
00:39:46.980 imprisoned at the same time.
00:39:49.140 It was just a very unfair situation.
00:39:52.680 Um, and so you had, I don't know if there was specifics in the documentary and we don't
00:39:59.660 have to get any more specific than you guys are comfortable with, but there were just multiple
00:40:04.280 affairs towards the beginning of the marriage.
00:40:07.060 Yeah.
00:40:07.680 Multiple, uh, emotional affairs.
00:40:10.720 Just different things I'd done behind her back.
00:40:12.860 Um, flirtatious relationships.
00:40:17.140 Yeah.
00:40:17.700 Mm-hmm.
00:40:18.580 And you mentioned that there was someone that you were close to that she basically cut herself
00:40:26.120 like out of your life because you had pursued her romantically.
00:40:32.600 Yeah.
00:40:32.920 Um, I mean, there are multiple reasons why our paths were no longer walking so close together,
00:40:39.700 but, um, I, I can remember when she, you know, she moved away and, and it was multiple reasons,
00:40:47.500 but I can remember when, when the conversation was first brought up, I just look back on that
00:40:52.380 time of her making these decisions and stuff like that and, and, you know, kind of knowing
00:40:56.380 what was going on under the surface.
00:40:57.640 And, and we had a great conversation and I, I share a lot about it in the book, but we
00:41:02.280 had a great conversation after he confessed everything to me.
00:41:05.020 And, you know, I asked her how, why she never told me we were really, really close and she
00:41:10.900 didn't reciprocate his feelings.
00:41:12.600 Those seems kind of like obvious, like just warned me or something.
00:41:15.580 And she said, I just thought I was the only one.
00:41:17.440 You guys were still really newlyweds.
00:41:19.420 And I thought I was just the only one I would just get out of the picture and it would all
00:41:23.460 go away and he would go back to normal.
00:41:25.080 And so, you know, it wasn't the case, but.
00:41:29.720 So y'all have been able to reconnect because I was wondering about that.
00:41:32.960 We had closure, closure.
00:41:34.100 I wouldn't say there's been a reconnection much, but closure.
00:41:38.480 Yeah.
00:41:38.960 And still a lot of love in that, that relationship.
00:41:42.380 So it was emotional cheating.
00:41:45.040 It wasn't physical.
00:41:47.460 There was some physical stuff too.
00:41:48.920 Yeah.
00:41:49.400 Yeah.
00:41:49.660 I just don't care to go into more detail, but I mean, it's in the book and it's in the
00:41:54.200 documentary.
00:41:55.020 Like everybody knows there's multiple things.
00:41:57.360 Yeah.
00:41:57.580 That's fine.
00:41:58.820 And you're obviously feeling shocked and betrayed as anyone would at this point.
00:42:05.440 Did you still feel like it was game day or were you like, nope, this is too much?
00:42:10.560 Yeah.
00:42:10.800 No, no more game day.
00:42:11.820 I was, I was done.
00:42:13.080 I was like, this is it.
00:42:14.720 I'm not going to stay married to you.
00:42:17.860 I, I really couldn't see away from my own self because he had, he was making a lot of
00:42:22.880 big promises.
00:42:23.380 Like as long as it takes, I'll be here.
00:42:25.100 I'll wait, you know, as long as it takes for you to forgive me.
00:42:27.620 And I'm like, it's not even just about forgiveness, but like, I don't think I could ever get over
00:42:31.500 the things you're telling me.
00:42:32.380 Like, I'll never be happy or look at you the same way.
00:42:34.660 Or, you know, my life, like just the, my life, our children, our home, like it all was
00:42:39.900 tainted in that moment.
00:42:40.880 And it took a long time for me to see things any other way.
00:42:45.980 It was all tainted for so long.
00:42:48.900 After that car ride, what happened?
00:42:52.120 What did it look like when you left and went home?
00:42:56.420 We didn't go home right away.
00:42:57.880 We were still in the Airbnb for one more night and, um, it was rough.
00:43:04.200 I told him I was not going to stay married to him.
00:43:07.000 We still had to travel home together.
00:43:08.660 So we, we actually missed our flight the next day and had to get an overnight flight and
00:43:14.000 we made it home.
00:43:14.600 It was our daughter's first day of school.
00:43:16.320 So we got home and immediately it was like five in the morning.
00:43:20.480 We got home and got her ready.
00:43:22.260 Our moms were both there helping and, you know, just to be there as well.
00:43:25.660 Took her to school.
00:43:26.740 And I told, I told him like, just get like, the way this goes is going to be our life forever.
00:43:32.160 You know, I'll take a picture of you with her.
00:43:35.000 You can take a picture of me with her.
00:43:36.680 We're not taking a family photo.
00:43:38.160 You can stand over there.
00:43:39.300 I'll stand over here with my friend.
00:43:41.020 Like, this is just what it will be like if, if we're going to have any interactions.
00:43:44.100 And our pastors who were also our friends, our pastor's wife specifically convinced me
00:43:50.380 to come to a marriage counseling session that day after we dropped our daughter off at school.
00:43:55.880 And I agreed to do that really because I just wanted to like unload, unload everything he
00:44:01.500 confessed.
00:44:02.360 I really wanted to embarrass him, I guess.
00:44:03.940 And I wanted to hear them come down hard on him.
00:44:07.200 And they did.
00:44:09.480 And it was a really rough first session.
00:44:12.460 A lot of things were said on my part, too.
00:44:15.440 A lot of things were said.
00:44:18.040 And I, but anyway, that, that went on for a while.
00:44:21.160 Just showing up to marriage counseling just to kind of hope that I could hear people come down hard on him.
00:44:25.940 But eventually it started to soften my heart.
00:44:28.580 And it's, it's a really long answer.
00:44:31.420 I can keep talking.
00:44:32.400 I just, you know, started searching the Bible.
00:44:34.420 What does the Bible say about divorce?
00:44:35.760 What does it say about adultery?
00:44:37.160 What does it say about remarriage?
00:44:38.400 I mean, there were just so many things to consider as a Christian if I wanted to make the right
00:44:42.680 decision for my relationship with God.
00:44:45.620 And even, even his, you know, we were so young, like we probably both would have gotten remarried.
00:44:51.560 What about the future of our children and their step parents and each other?
00:44:56.320 It was a lot.
00:44:56.800 It was so much.
00:44:57.580 But I, I dove in and I researched it all.
00:45:05.760 Obviously, you felt betrayed.
00:45:14.820 Yeah.
00:45:15.160 Um, but did you feel equally as betrayed by the secrecy and the prolonged lying as you did the actual cheating?
00:45:27.640 Like, did the lying bother you just as much?
00:45:30.300 Yes, for sure.
00:45:33.060 It definitely did.
00:45:34.180 I mean, it was, it was the, the length of time in between, even though he had been living for the Lord there.
00:45:40.120 Like I said, there was just this view of my life that was tainted, even, you know, like because of the lies.
00:45:47.640 Like I wasn't really living in reality.
00:45:49.740 I felt very tricked and very just in the dark.
00:45:53.300 I come to find out, I mean, I, I came to find out the people in our life who knew that he had been unfaithful and never told me.
00:45:59.920 And it was just, it was a lot of betrayal when you put it in that perspective.
00:46:04.180 There's people who were kind of protecting him and were thinking they were protecting me and they weren't.
00:46:09.720 Yeah.
00:46:10.200 It's a lot to consider.
00:46:11.400 Yeah.
00:46:11.620 Gosh, sin just involves so many people.
00:46:14.940 And when you're first tempted to sin, Satan convinces you, it's just you.
00:46:18.980 You're never going to hurt anyone.
00:46:20.360 It's only going to affect you.
00:46:22.520 And then you're describing all these people, friends, family, kids, community, church.
00:46:28.160 Like sin is just so pervasive in that way.
00:46:31.820 And of course, Satan loves to destroy marriages.
00:46:33.920 And there are plenty of people who would have gotten a divorce and they would have said, you know what, this is unfaithfulness and I'm completely justified.
00:46:44.960 So tell me your thinking, what did you learn in those counseling sessions that eventually softened your heart?
00:46:53.400 Well, for starters, I saw true repentance on Sam's part.
00:46:59.620 But I mean, he was truly repentant, you know, and I had known him for over 10 years at this point.
00:47:05.480 I could see the difference.
00:47:07.820 And I mean, he was just not budging.
00:47:10.320 He was bending over.
00:47:11.660 I mean, as maybe some people would say, well, he should have.
00:47:14.040 But I mean, he was a different man.
00:47:15.380 I was seeing a different side of him committed to me and our family, just truly living for the Lord.
00:47:21.540 And in everything that he was doing, even though I wanted to be separate from him, he was reading the Bible to our children in front of me.
00:47:28.600 And even though I wanted him to leave, he would do that first and then he would leave, you know, at night and go stay somewhere else.
00:47:37.020 But really, I think what started to change my heart towards him was just listening to the Holy Spirit and being aware of like what I had been learning before his confessions.
00:47:47.340 I had, I just knew without a shadow of a doubt that the Holy Spirit had laid on my heart that we would be in marriage ministry one day before he ever confessed anything.
00:47:56.900 And I had forgotten about that with his confessions and all that.
00:48:01.560 But through all the praying I was doing, just asking him to show me, show me, what do you want me to do?
00:48:06.580 Like, what is the right thing here?
00:48:07.900 He's so repentant.
00:48:08.760 We had a family.
00:48:09.560 I really loved him.
00:48:10.480 I wasn't cheating.
00:48:11.800 He was.
00:48:12.760 And, you know, he had not done it in so long and he was so repentant.
00:48:16.060 Like, did I really want to start over and didn't risk going through some this or something similar with another guy?
00:48:22.700 I mean, all men have their own struggles.
00:48:24.800 It's like, why would I, why would I want to put my own self in that position or just work it out with the person I love?
00:48:30.380 But really, like, to, like, long, not long story short, but short story long, I just, like, really had to learn what forgiveness really was and what the Bible said about marriage and, like, how the, how marriage is such a picture of the gospel.
00:48:47.120 It just, it's just not as black and white as I always thought.
00:48:50.420 Oh, a man cheats, you're justified to divorce.
00:48:53.640 It's really not that black and white if you get down and really get into the scriptures.
00:48:57.540 And I wasn't willing to take a risk of living in sin the rest of my life or the father of my children living in sin the rest of his life when we could go forward and heal.
00:49:07.360 Are you willing to talk about that a little bit more?
00:49:10.160 Because you're right.
00:49:10.960 A lot of people do think it's black and white and it's almost like, oh, well, this is easy.
00:49:15.300 I can just get out of it.
00:49:17.760 But you're right.
00:49:18.700 It's not as simple as Jesus saying, yeah, definitely get a divorce if this happens.
00:49:24.680 That's not really what the scripture says.
00:49:26.380 So could you talk a little bit more about that?
00:49:28.180 Yeah, sure.
00:49:28.740 I mean, one scripture says outright, God hates divorce.
00:49:34.660 And I was strongly considering something that the God I worship and serve and want to, I wanted to follow what was right for my life.
00:49:41.640 That's what I wanted.
00:49:42.640 I didn't even care about him at this point.
00:49:44.120 I wanted to do what was right for me as a Christian.
00:49:46.060 And so I was considering something that God hates while my husband was actually repentant.
00:49:52.720 It's not like he was struggling with, oh, you know, I might not be able to quit, but I want to quit.
00:49:58.740 Like he was done.
00:49:59.480 That life was over.
00:50:00.280 And I had to consider all of that, that we could go forward and have a Christian godly marriage, living in truth, being open and just working with one another with our not working with, but, you know, supporting each other and being there for each other with the flaws.
00:50:13.560 I mean, my flaws, his flaws, everything laid out on the table and go forward in honesty and open communication and all of that.
00:50:20.340 But, yeah, the scripture just, you know, I really always thought if a man cheats, you can divorce.
00:50:25.260 But then there's the conversation of like adultery.
00:50:29.320 And what does that even mean?
00:50:30.160 It's not just cheating on your spouse.
00:50:33.160 Adultery actually can mean two divorced people coming together.
00:50:38.120 I don't know how deep into this you want to go.
00:50:40.300 How technical.
00:50:41.780 But, yeah, there's a lot to it.
00:50:43.120 Yeah, I do think some people see it as like a command to divorce if there is unfaithfulness.
00:50:48.800 But some of the most beautiful testimonies that I have heard are of couples who have overcome that.
00:50:54.560 Either the husband or the wife being unfaithful to their marriage vows in a variety of ways and still reconciling through the power of the Holy Spirit.
00:51:05.060 Now, that's not to say there is never any reason whatsoever to divorce.
00:51:09.460 There are biblical reasons to divorce.
00:51:11.600 But, you know, as you explained, divorce affects a lot of people for generations.
00:51:18.140 And so it's a much more serious, much deeper and more profound thing than I think a lot of people realize.
00:51:23.040 So y'all kind of reached this place of reconciliation and redemption.
00:51:29.300 What does that look like for y'all publicly as bloggers, as people who did a Netflix documentary?
00:51:37.000 What has it been like sharing that story?
00:51:39.120 I would say it's been a 50-50 response from people.
00:51:49.460 Some people are like cheering us on, so proud.
00:51:52.000 And then the other 50% are people just kind of hating and they just don't get it.
00:51:58.460 You know, they just.
00:52:00.200 Yeah, they just believe once a cheater, always a cheater.
00:52:02.860 And they believe infidelity means automatic divorce like you guys were talking about.
00:52:07.960 And there's no changing their minds.
00:52:09.880 There's a lot of that.
00:52:13.060 Yeah, I mean, as far like personally, our family, our community, our church community has been so supportive and proud.
00:52:19.840 And I mean, that's that's that's all I can like as long as the people who really know us are seeing the truth and seeing this.
00:52:27.520 Just, you know, how how just the way God moved in our our relationship together, but individually with him is just so beautiful.
00:52:35.740 Like it seems worth the risk to tell it.
00:52:38.940 Not just that we had already been sitting down with other couples.
00:52:42.360 You know, this is already an open story for us before the documentary came out.
00:52:46.300 So for us, it's like God has been preparing our hearts to kind of speak, talk about our testimony, speak out about our testimony long before the documentary came out.
00:53:00.340 And so this just kind of seemed like the the next step, the obvious next step for us since we are living in public.
00:53:06.940 We've always saw this as our ministry.
00:53:09.080 And this is where God has redeemed our lives the most.
00:53:13.620 OK.
00:53:14.060 And you'll have said on Instagram a couple of times that you feel like Netflix didn't represent you completely accurately.
00:53:25.960 And we already you already explained one of those times, like the timing of when you stopped Ashley Madison and like the YouTube channel.
00:53:33.960 But what were some other ways that you felt like Netflix didn't depict this accurately?
00:53:39.520 So that was the biggest one.
00:53:41.180 It made it look like I traded my adulterous thoughts for YouTube, went from one vice to the next.
00:53:48.140 And then they also took a line that I now look back and see that they kind of manipulated me into saying.
00:53:54.000 And I finally agreed to saying it, not knowing what their agenda was.
00:53:58.580 They had me say the line.
00:54:01.080 The validate the validation I was seeking outside my marriage was replaced with the validation in YouTube.
00:54:06.700 I said something along those lines in the documentary.
00:54:09.660 And that was the line they fed me and they had me say.
00:54:13.620 And I regret saying anything that they fed me.
00:54:18.060 But, you know, in the moment when you really respect the people behind the camera.
00:54:22.240 And that's part of their job to make you feel like y'all are friends.
00:54:25.520 We're on your team.
00:54:26.720 I'm not saying I don't know.
00:54:27.980 Maybe they're all good people, but that's kind of part of their what they do.
00:54:31.440 And they were good at it.
00:54:32.560 We still love them.
00:54:33.560 I mean, I love the director.
00:54:35.300 He's an awesome dude.
00:54:36.940 But it's kind of frustrating to see that I was manipulating that way.
00:54:40.520 Even though there's truth, there's some truth to that.
00:54:42.620 I still struggle with seeking validation from other people.
00:54:46.820 But that's not what saved me from, you know, strength.
00:54:51.200 YouTube did not save me from adultery.
00:54:54.160 Yeah, they definitely did make it seem like that.
00:54:55.920 Yeah, it's pretty frustrating.
00:54:57.700 Was there anything else?
00:54:58.560 I mean, for me, yeah, I think like a lot of people have asked me privately, even friends and family like have asked me, which friends did he sleep with?
00:55:08.800 I'm like, well, he didn't sleep with any of my friends.
00:55:11.040 Like they kind of just made it sound like he was having all of this random sex.
00:55:15.720 And he wasn't he I mean, I we've agreed not to go into too many details, but there was one there was only one and it was not a friend of mine.
00:55:25.200 And it was nobody we knew.
00:55:27.020 And like that's frustrating for me just to keep having to explain something that I've that we've moved so far beyond.
00:55:33.640 But to to like family, even like that, they're just hearing it for the first time.
00:55:37.360 Some of them there was another one.
00:55:42.000 I'm it's I'm blanking on it now.
00:55:44.120 There was another one that.
00:55:45.500 Oh, yeah.
00:55:46.040 I felt like they kind of made it seem like it was like Ashley Madison confessions, bam, she forgave him because she's she's so dumb, you know, I don't know.
00:55:57.200 That's just kind of like what how the haters are portraying it.
00:55:59.740 But, man, it was like it was like years of hard, hard work and intense counseling and long, hard conversations before I reached a point of like like freely forgiving him.
00:56:15.540 I mean, I held on to it for so long.
00:56:18.100 I questioned him day after day after day about past and current things.
00:56:22.620 It was a really I would like gruesome journey to actually having a freedom from the forgiveness that I was wanting to have.
00:56:33.360 Does that make sense?
00:56:33.980 Like I knew I got a new like you can say I forgive him.
00:56:37.120 I'm going to forgive him.
00:56:38.740 But to actually walk that out took a lot of hard work.
00:56:41.240 And the documentary made it look like I was just like, OK, we'll stay together.
00:56:45.900 You know, it wasn't like that.
00:56:52.620 I was pleased that they did allow y'all to incorporate your faith and that at the end, I do think that they showed that there was reconciliation and redemption.
00:57:09.880 You're right.
00:57:10.500 Maybe they like kept it superficial, but I was actually kind of pleasantly surprised at the end how they depicted y'all.
00:57:19.100 And I was glad for that.
00:57:20.700 Of course, there's going to be people with anti-Christian bias who want to believe that you are just being oppressed, that you don't have your own autonomy and you can't make your own decisions.
00:57:31.420 And those people also don't believe in redemption because they don't know the gospel.
00:57:36.320 Have you all gotten negativity from Christians?
00:57:40.960 A little bit.
00:57:42.840 There have been some that are I mean, you mentioned a lot of your followers probably aren't even on Netflix.
00:57:47.460 There was some of that.
00:57:49.400 I can't believe you guys are back on it.
00:57:50.740 Like you said you were done with Netflix, you know, like we got some of that.
00:57:54.840 And, you know, some people questioning why we would even be a part of something that was overall like dark and all about cheating.
00:58:02.140 It's like what we kind of look at it like stuff.
00:58:05.580 There was some weird stuff in there, which I don't blame y'all for.
00:58:09.420 We didn't have a clue.
00:58:10.360 No, y'all weren't a part of it.
00:58:11.900 But I also was not expecting some of the stuff that I saw.
00:58:16.500 I mean, we're called to be the light in the darkness.
00:58:18.900 It's a it's a dark place.
00:58:20.500 It's like we can't we can't completely stray away from, you know, speak our testimony just because it's a dark place.
00:58:27.120 So it's not a documentary.
00:58:28.840 I suggest the Christians like at church.
00:58:30.660 I don't say go see this documentary.
00:58:32.020 I just don't.
00:58:32.780 I said, in fact, I wouldn't see it.
00:58:34.480 Yeah.
00:58:34.800 Like this is what God calls this interview instead.
00:58:37.900 Yeah, exactly.
00:58:38.860 We'll tell it.
00:58:39.260 We'll send them here.
00:58:40.040 Yeah, for sure.
00:58:41.440 Yeah.
00:58:41.680 What else would you want to say?
00:58:46.220 Maybe what would you say to a couple who finds themselves in a similar situation where one side is like, I just don't know that I can forgive, even though he or she is repentant and wants to move on.
00:58:57.120 To that, I would say you can.
00:59:03.660 And there's there's more than one path when someone betrays you that it's not, you know, the only divorce is not the only option and ending your marriage, separating your family is not the only option.
00:59:18.280 And I know there's cases where that is the only option and that's the right option.
00:59:22.200 But I do believe that there are people out there who have repentant spouses that want to stay married and maybe they're they feel pressured by the world, society, their friends, their whoever, co-workers.
00:59:34.180 And it's just not the only option.
00:59:37.440 And I just want people to know it's possible.
00:59:39.540 It is possible to work through all of that hurt and all of that together and make it to the other side and have real, true joy and intimacy and fun together again.
00:59:50.200 And what would you say, Sam, to someone who has secret sin and they're battling with the conviction to live in truth, but they really don't want to because they're afraid of what they're going to lose?
01:00:08.740 I would say make sure you're grounded in the word of God, first of all, don't do it alone.
01:00:12.980 Like you can't get out of pornography or the lie of women alone.
01:00:18.280 You just can't. Men try. We can't do it in our own will.
01:00:21.540 We need we need the Lord and we need other men of God to do that with us.
01:00:25.840 And I would encourage them.
01:00:27.100 I feel like God created men with this really strong innate desire for adventure.
01:00:31.820 And I feel like we mistake that for other women and we chase after women because we think that's the adventure life has.
01:00:38.060 But I think they're missing out on like what God has truly called them for, which is such a deeper, more beautiful, more fun adventure,
01:00:46.940 you know, than women could ever offer us.
01:00:50.460 Like as I go deeper and deeper with the Lord, the adventure he calls me to is just it's unmatched.
01:00:58.460 And so I would first say, you know, find another man who can support you through this because you can't do it alone.
01:01:07.040 Submit to God and his word completely.
01:01:09.300 And go for it.
01:01:14.040 Go for it. Take the leap.
01:01:16.000 Yeah, take the leap.
01:01:16.980 I think, too, like if I could talk to those guys or girls who are having secret sin, your spouse is a lot stronger than you think they are.
01:01:24.960 You know, one of his things he said, he thought it would crush me and destroy me.
01:01:28.000 And I think in he has said this before that he was surprised by how strong I actually was.
01:01:32.900 And I don't know why we fear that if it's like our own, like we're projecting how scared we are or the liar, whoever's got the secret sin is projecting the fear.
01:01:42.900 But your spouse is a lot stronger than you think.
01:01:46.180 And they can't handle it.
01:01:48.680 I'm sure it is painful.
01:01:49.680 It's always painful every time I have to make confession.
01:01:51.980 And I think of a verse in Proverbs, what is it?
01:01:58.980 Dang it.
01:02:00.240 Blows that hurt, cleanse away evil.
01:02:03.020 And, you know, something like that.
01:02:05.540 Blows that hurt, cleanse away evil, as do the innermost parts.
01:02:08.480 But anyway, every time I make confession to Nia, it's a blow that hurts and it cleanses away evil.
01:02:12.980 So I think the most manliest thing a man can do is to confess their sin to the person that hurt the most.
01:02:20.560 Because it is by far the most painful thing I think a man could possibly do to humble themselves that low.
01:02:26.240 And it truly does cleanse away evil because you literally get to look right in the face what your sin is doing.
01:02:33.180 And it's like it will knock you out and be like, whoa, yeah, my sin is serious.
01:02:37.960 It's ugly and not worth it in the slightest.
01:02:41.080 Yeah, I mean, you really are like when you do that, you're getting to like the heart of what happened in the garden.
01:02:48.840 Because like how did Adam handle accountability?
01:02:51.720 It was the woman you gave me.
01:02:53.240 How did the woman handle accountability?
01:02:55.120 It was the snake.
01:02:56.840 And then, I mean, finally, you know, God makes them bear the responsibility.
01:03:01.540 And we're still bearing those consequences to this day.
01:03:03.940 And so everyone to one degree or another struggles with that.
01:03:07.840 But like I always think about this quote by C.S. Lewis.
01:03:11.220 This is a paraphrase because I can't remember the exact words.
01:03:13.540 But it's like worry is picturing the future without God's grace in it.
01:03:17.980 Because God's grace is always in the present moment.
01:03:20.880 And so when we think about, oh, my gosh, when I confess this or when I do that scary thing, you picture the world falling apart.
01:03:27.780 Well, you're picturing that moment without God's grace meeting you.
01:03:30.600 And it will.
01:03:32.160 And the transformative strengthening power of that just can't even be, you know, properly understood.
01:03:39.440 That's true.
01:03:40.200 And I think that, you know, y'all's testimony is a real testament to that.
01:03:44.160 I want to hear more about your book, just where people can find it, how they can read it.
01:03:47.580 I love the cover.
01:03:49.100 Thank you.
01:03:49.360 It's so pretty.
01:03:49.920 Live in Truth by Sam and Nia.
01:03:52.640 I'm guessing it's wherever books are sold.
01:03:55.680 Amazon.
01:03:56.080 It's our memoir, the past 10 years of our life, which has been an insane journey to live it and then to write it.
01:04:05.480 But it's our journey of God bringing me to a life of living in truth.
01:04:10.520 Me to a life of, well, also living in truth in a different way, but just, you know, in forgiveness and just being understanding and loving.
01:04:20.920 You know, this, you said the cover, this is from our vow renewal.
01:04:23.800 And there's a lot of, there's a lot in our story that God has redeemed, like just so beautifully.
01:04:30.520 And I love that we get to share it with so many people and just say like, hey, you don't have to hang on to the dark parts of your life.
01:04:36.520 God wants to flood it with his light.
01:04:38.840 And he will, if we give it, if we just keep our eyes open for it, he will flood the darkness in your life with light.
01:04:43.760 Even the parts that are already gone.
01:04:45.520 And you'd think you look back and you can look at it and it's maybe got a dark shadow on it.
01:04:50.120 He will still infiltrate that and show you where he was in that moment.
01:04:54.180 And all the other amazing things that happen when we let go of sin.
01:04:57.820 Like we don't realize that but sin is really keeping us from an amazing, incredible calling.
01:05:05.060 Yes.
01:05:05.540 And amen.
01:05:05.920 Well, thank you all so much.
01:05:06.980 Thank you for taking the time to share your story.
01:05:09.380 I encourage people to go out and get your book.
01:05:11.360 We can put the link in the description so people can click on it easily.
01:05:14.460 Thank you all so much.
01:05:15.460 Yeah, thank you.
01:05:16.220 Thank you.