Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1027 ｜ Rosaria Butterfield Rebukes Seminaries, Dennis Prager Defends Lust

00:00:00.680 Rosaria Butterfield is calling out seminaries for giving approval to insidious LGBTQ ideas.

00:00:09.160 Also, we are discussing some commentary from Dennis Prager about the sinfulness or the 0.97

00:00:15.980 not-so-sinfulness of lust and masturbation.

00:00:20.000 And also, we will talk about a trend on TikTok called The Passenger Princess.

00:00:26.320 We've got all of that on today's episode of Relatable.

00:00:30.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:41.320 Happy Thursday.

00:00:42.280 Hope everyone has had a wonderful week.

00:00:44.820 Okay, yesterday's conversation with Dr. Keneally.

00:00:47.760 I know you guys loved that.

00:00:49.760 You guys have been asking me to have her on when I posted last week that she was coming 0.87

00:00:54.040 on the show.

00:00:54.580 Y'all were so pumped.

00:00:56.680 She's amazing.

00:00:57.300 Just so much insight.

00:00:58.460 Make sure you follow her.

00:00:59.420 Listen to that episode or watch it if you haven't already.

00:01:03.440 If you or someone in your life has cancer, you've got to listen to it.

00:01:07.840 But really, it was just so good for general health.

00:01:10.060 Answered a lot of my questions.

00:01:12.040 All right.

00:01:12.460 We've got quite a few things to get to today before I get into it.

00:01:15.520 Just a reminder, our Share the Arrows event is going to be amazing.

00:01:20.160 It is on September 28th.

00:01:22.420 If you are a Relatable, Relatable, Relatable, so a woman, a Christian conservative woman in 0.70

00:01:28.520 particular, you are going to love this event.

00:01:30.460 It is September 28th in Dallas, Texas.

00:01:33.500 Elisa Childers, Abby Halberstadt, Francesca Battistelli, and Rosaria Butterfield will all

00:01:39.680 be there.

00:01:40.080 And of course, I will be there too, sharethearrows.com for more information.

00:01:46.000 All right.

00:01:46.360 Speaking of Rosaria Butterfield, who you will get to see in the flesh if you are going to

00:01:52.100 be at the Share the Arrows event.

00:01:53.980 Our first story has to do with her.

00:01:55.840 If you don't know who Rosaria Butterfield is, you are missing out.

00:02:00.300 She's been on this podcast now a couple of times.

00:02:02.760 We've talked about her testimony before.

00:02:04.900 She's written several books about her testimony, and she is such a strong voice for the Bible,

00:02:11.700 for biblical theology.

00:02:13.440 So she used to be a queer theory, critical theory professor at Syracuse University.

00:02:18.280 She was a lesbian feminist activist, and she worked hard to ensure that LGBTQ, so-called 1.00

00:02:25.840 people, they weren't really called that then, had quote-unquote equal rights.

00:02:30.840 So the redefinition of marriage is something that she had at the top of her agenda when

00:02:36.800 she was this feminist activist several decades ago. 1.00

00:02:40.320 And then through the hospitality of a Christian neighbor, she heard the gospel.

00:02:44.700 She realized the truth of God's word, the truth of who Jesus was.

00:02:48.460 She converted to Christianity.

00:02:50.480 She realized through the process of spirit-empowered sanctification that she could no longer

00:02:55.640 as a Christian be in this relationship with another woman that she had been in for years

00:03:01.360 and years at that point, practically a spouse.

00:03:05.480 She walked away from that relationship. 0.96

00:03:07.840 She walked away from her former way of life.

00:03:11.080 As I said, now she is a Christian author, apologist, I think just an incredible defender of the faith,

00:03:17.780 especially when it comes to this cultural moment, the attempt to normalize and glorify sexual depravity.

00:03:24.560 She is such a bold voice against that in a variety of ways.

00:03:28.700 She also is a wife and a mother to four, and she's just incredible.

00:03:36.280 She offers so much clarity and courage in this age of chaos, cowardice, and confusion.

00:03:42.440 And now she is rebuking a seminary, the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

00:03:50.620 In fact, there's a lot of good people there, a ton of people that we've had on our show

00:03:55.720 that work there, and I think in general it is a great institution.

00:04:00.540 But Rosaria Butterfield is calling them out for something in particular, and that is for

00:04:05.080 approving Nate Collins' dissertation.

00:04:08.560 So if you have no idea what I'm talking about, let me back up a little bit and give you some

00:04:12.700 context to explain why this matters.

00:04:14.880 So Rosaria Butterfield recently criticized evangelical institutions for their acceptance of LGBTQ

00:04:22.800 ideology, and more specifically, she actually criticized Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

00:04:30.160 for credentializing heresy and sin—that is her terminology—by approving the dissertation

00:04:36.560 of Nate Collins all the way back in 2017.

00:04:39.360 Collins' dissertation became the book, All But Invisible, Exploring Identity Questions

00:04:45.120 at the Intersection of Faith, Gender, and Sexuality.

00:04:48.220 Collins would also go on to found Revoice.

00:04:51.840 This is an organization that has embraced the view that Christians can live out a so-called 1.00

00:04:57.600 LGBTQ identity if they remain celibate.

00:05:01.260 This is often referred to as Side B Christianity.

00:05:04.320 We will link the recent episode that we did where we explained Side B Christianity versus

00:05:10.160 Side A versus Side X versus Side Y, exactly what all of that means.

00:05:16.480 And so he is a part of Side B Christianity, which really says that you can, you know, remain 0.93

00:05:23.360 celibate, but it's fine to call yourself a so-called gay Christian or a trans Christian.

00:05:28.300 And this is not something that I subscribe to, but this is an increasingly popular position.

00:05:34.740 It's something that also Rosaria Butterfield has spoken out against. 1.00

00:05:38.240 So has Christopher Yuan, Beckett Cook, all of these people we've had on our podcast before.

00:05:43.720 In an episode of the American Reformer podcast that aired in February of this year, Rosaria

00:05:49.680 joined Timon Klein and Josh Abitoy to describe how critical theory and queer theory have made

00:05:56.560 their way into the church.

00:05:59.080 And she talks about this particular instance of Nate Collins' dissertation being approved

00:06:03.840 at SBTS.

00:06:05.220 So here's that.

00:06:06.920 I remember reading it and saying, this is one of the most God-forsaken things I've read as,

00:06:13.520 you know, as a Christian ever.

00:06:15.800 What are you all thinking?

00:06:17.520 He mishandles both the Bible and critical theory and queer theory all at the same time, 0.99

00:06:24.820 which is really kind of, it's an amazing achievement.

00:06:28.780 Bad ideas don't run a culture amok until the church starts applauding them.

00:06:38.120 And we've seen a good bit of that.

00:06:40.860 Maybe this was just the first time it came to my desk.

00:06:43.800 Okay, so the title of Nate Collins' dissertation was Virgin as Secondary Gender Identity in

00:06:54.620 1 Corinthians 7 and its Jewish and Greco-Roman background.

00:07:00.980 So Rosaria argues that by approving this dissertation, they kind of approved this idea.

00:07:07.700 I mean, approving a dissertation doesn't necessarily mean you agree with every part of the dissertation,

00:07:12.920 but she argues that this is God-forsaken, that he mishandles the Bible, and he actually

00:07:19.960 mishandles critical and queer theory.

00:07:22.380 He actually misunderstands and misapplies those things too.

00:07:25.740 And she, of course, says tongue-in-cheek that that's an amazing achievement.

00:07:29.520 And I really found this profound when she said that bad ideas don't run a culture amok

00:07:35.700 until the church starts applauding them.

00:07:40.440 And so I'd be interested to see what the response would be of those who did approve

00:07:46.420 this dissertation version as a secondary gender identity in 1 Corinthians 7. 0.91

00:07:52.060 That is insane.

00:07:53.980 It's insane.

00:07:54.740 So let me back up a little bit about who Nate Collins is and his relationship with SBTS.

00:08:01.180 So he did an interview with Preston Sprinkle in 2015.

00:08:05.680 We've talked about Preston Sprinkle before.

00:08:07.520 I think Preston Sprinkle has a lot of good things to say, but we disagree on things like

00:08:12.200 so-called pronoun politeness.

00:08:13.780 He would also say that it is valid to identify as a gay Christian.

00:08:17.540 I think, oh my goodness, that is a paradoxical abomination or maybe an abominable paradox because

00:08:25.780 you are identifying as that which God calls sin and trying to wed it with being a new creation.

00:08:32.380 It's like saying I'm an old new creation that is not in accordance with scripture.

00:08:37.000 That is not in accordance with the gospel.

00:08:39.640 You are still holding on to that such were some of you part of your life.

00:08:46.040 You are still holding on to the old self by identifying as two things that really don't

00:08:51.620 go together.

00:08:52.260 So I really disagree with him on that, even though ultimately Preston will say that biblical

00:08:59.020 marriage is between one man and one woman.

00:09:02.560 How we handle these issues is very different in a lot of ways.

00:09:09.380 So as I said, Nate Collins and Preston, they had a conversation together in 2015.

00:09:15.420 And Collins describes how he is same-sex attracted and how he kind of weds these two identities

00:09:22.700 of being same-sex attracted and a Christian together, which kind of laid the foundation

00:09:27.480 for everything we're talking about, the dissertation, revoice and all that.

00:09:30.620 So Collins also says that he is a same-sex attracted man in a mixed orientation marriage.

00:09:52.240 So that's one spouse is straight. 0.78

00:09:55.120 He uses that language while the other opposite sex spouse is attracted to the same sex.

00:10:00.440 So he has a wife, Sarah, that he is married to, but he is still attracted to men.

00:10:09.580 He says, he says, by the time we were married, I hadn't become straight because I still experienced

00:10:14.320 same-sex attractions.

00:10:15.200 At the same time, a one-woman orientation had been developing within me during my relationship

00:10:20.760 with Sarah.

00:10:21.340 So marrying her felt like the most natural thing to do.

00:10:23.800 And also, my heart had, in fact, grown to long for.

00:10:29.380 He also says he's not bisexual.

00:10:32.660 And so this is how he kind of describes his relationship there.

00:10:37.340 And then a little more about this thesis that Rosaria Butterfield has recently called out,

00:10:43.700 the virgin, a secondary gender identity in 1 Corinthians 7.

00:10:47.520 There are some quotes from this.

00:10:50.240 He says, this dissertation will argue the thesis that the Greek word for virgin functions as

00:10:56.060 a label that indexes the secondary gender identity in Paul's discussion of virgins in 1 Corinthians 7.

00:11:02.000 He says he will distinguish between primary gender identity and secondary gender identity.

00:11:07.260 He says primary gender identity is binary and reflects the original divine intent to create

00:11:13.120 male persons and female persons.

00:11:15.100 And secondary gender identity, on the other hand, is non-binary and is the result of the 0.64

00:11:19.540 pluriform effects of the enculturation of gender within human society, which, of course, 0.92

00:11:24.440 is completely theologically and biologically untrue.

00:11:28.840 And yet that is a part of his thesis.

00:11:30.720 He says that his thesis will also illustrate the significance of the sex-gender distinction

00:11:37.200 within Christian theology in ways that are less than apparent to secular forms of gender theory.

00:11:44.920 He talks about the differences in gender identities throughout Scripture.

00:11:50.400 His conclusion is, we began with a survey of feminist and contemporary gender theory in order

00:11:56.240 to discern the kinds of answers theorists have provided to the question, what is gender identity?

00:12:00.860 We observed that responses to this question followed several discernible patterns.

00:12:05.560 Each of them might inform Christian doctrine of gender.

00:12:08.820 Also in 2017, Nate published much of the material in a book titled All But Invisible,

00:12:17.100 Exploring Identity Questions at the Intersection of Faith, Gender, and Sexuality.

00:12:21.820 Collins explores the cultural background of what he describes as the intersection

00:12:25.080 between a gay identity and a Christian identity.

00:12:29.640 Collins is speaking from his own experience, of course, in his so-called mixed orientation marriage.

00:12:37.720 And so while Collins might, at the end of the day, agree that marriage biblically should be

00:12:44.700 between one man and one woman, I think we have some very serious fundamental theological disagreements

00:12:51.100 on what identity is and, again, what it means to be a new creation.

00:12:57.940 Maybe there is some common ground there in how we understand pushing our feelings to the side

00:13:05.420 and obeying the design that God has created for his people.

00:13:10.920 But it sounds to me like there is a lot of secularism in how he is viewing God's commands and how he is

00:13:20.420 viewing a scripture's descriptions of what gender, of what sex actually are.

00:13:27.240 Rosari's opinion on Collins' writing and bringing queer theory into Christian circles,

00:13:32.260 she says she compares, for example, critical race theory to a broken leg while trying to run a marathon.

00:13:39.140 It won't kill you, but you should get to a hospital to treat it right away.

00:13:43.300 The same would be true of queer theory.

00:13:44.800 And of course, she's an expert on queer theory. 0.85

00:13:47.240 She then compares critical queer theory to a massive heart attack.

00:13:50.440 This is why the church needs to wake up and drive it out of the evangelical institution.

00:13:55.160 So let me kind of correct myself there.

00:13:58.220 She says critical race theory being what it is, and we've talked about that many times on this podcast,

00:14:05.120 basically the belief that there is the black and brown oppressed and the white oppressor,

00:14:10.440 and everything is viewed through that lens.

00:14:14.880 She says that that is injurious, that that is going to harm your faith, that is going to hurt your theology,

00:14:21.380 and you need to get that fixed right away, but it's not going to quickly destroy it.

00:14:28.660 She says that critical queer theory is a massive heart attack,

00:14:32.900 and it will absolutely bring the faith, bring your doctrines to ruin.

00:14:39.020 It has to be driven out of evangelical institutions.

00:14:42.420 I don't know if we were talking right now if she would agree with this.

00:14:45.900 I actually think critical race theory is just as dangerous as critical queer theory. 0.98

00:14:51.960 I really do, and I actually think in some ways it's even more dangerous

00:14:55.740 because I think a lot of Christians see it as more innocuous,

00:14:59.380 and there is some kind of guilt attached to it for the white evangelical,

00:15:04.340 and so they start redefining justice in terms of critical race theory much more quickly

00:15:10.720 than they will redefine marriage or redefine sexuality in terms of critical queer theory.

00:15:18.320 So I think that they are equally dangerous just in different ways

00:15:23.100 because both of them beg us to ask the question, did God really say?

00:15:29.860 What is Revoice?

00:15:31.140 This is Nate Collins' organization.

00:15:33.420 Maybe you've heard it before.

00:15:35.140 The website says that it exists to support and encourage Christians who are sexual minorities

00:15:40.280 so they can flourish in historic Christian traditions.

00:15:43.660 Revoice was founded in 2018.

00:15:45.580 A group of Christians gathered.

00:15:46.880 Most of them were gay slash same-sex attracted to create events for supporting

00:15:51.720 and encouraging one another.

00:15:57.240 In theory, this may not sound necessarily bad

00:16:02.100 because people who struggle with same-sex attraction recognize that it is a disordered desire

00:16:07.120 and that same-sex relationships, same-sex behavior, that that is a sin,

00:16:13.960 that that is something that should be repented of,

00:16:15.920 that that's something that should be resisted, and we should embrace God's design.

00:16:20.600 Those people should have community.

00:16:22.540 They should be able to go to church.

00:16:24.120 They should be able to walk the road of sanctification empowered by the Holy Spirit

00:16:30.460 alongside other Christians that struggle in a variety of ways.

00:16:34.680 The problem with revoice is that it really blurs the lines between affirmation and love,

00:16:45.060 I would say, like true, godly, truth-filled love,

00:16:48.700 where you don't rejoice in wrongdoing but just rejoice in the truth,

00:16:52.800 and affirmation of sin, of course, which we believe is cruelty.

00:16:56.220 I think that revoice really blurs the lines between those two things.

00:17:00.280 For example, they say,

00:17:01.320 we believe that theological dialogue about the nature of sexual orientation is necessary

00:17:05.460 and that continued conversation regarding the discipleship and spiritual care

00:17:08.920 of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and other same-sex attracted Christians.

00:17:12.300 So see, they use the multiple labels.

00:17:14.400 They don't just say same-sex attracted.

00:17:16.900 They say gay, lesbian, bisexual,

00:17:18.620 as if that can be an active part of your identity as a Christian,

00:17:22.000 is especially important.

00:17:24.020 While discussions about terminology can be fruitful,

00:17:26.020 we believe they can also cause unnecessary division within the family of God

00:17:29.900 and needless pain for many non-straight Christians.

00:17:32.860 Whether individuals choose gay or same-sex attracted or to describe their orientation,

00:17:38.700 I don't even think orientation is the right language for the Christian.

00:17:43.000 I just don't because God orients our hearts when we become Christians towards the things

00:17:48.580 that He loves.

00:17:49.900 And orientation, I think, sounds like something that is fixed,

00:17:53.540 something that is innate and permanent that cannot be removed or changed at all.

00:17:59.260 And while we don't know if someone who is same-sex attracted,

00:18:02.220 that their attractions will necessarily change in the direction of the opposite sex,

00:18:09.820 we do know that God can do that, that of course He can.

00:18:13.440 It may always be a struggle for them,

00:18:16.620 a true repentance-centered struggle for them,

00:18:20.820 or maybe it won't be.

00:18:22.740 But the fact of the matter is, is that God can change that.

00:18:25.200 And saying orientation, again, sounds so stagnant and fixed,

00:18:27.800 I don't think that's right theologically.

00:18:30.120 They say orientation experience is a matter of wisdom and liberty.

00:18:34.160 I'm not sure about that.

00:18:35.720 And should divide, should not divide believers

00:18:38.540 who otherwise share a commitment to historic Christian teaching about marriage and sexuality.

00:18:43.680 Like if you look at the revoiced staff bios,

00:18:47.180 there is a woman claiming bisexual identity.

00:18:49.640 She has she, her pronouns in her profile.

00:18:53.160 And then a same-sex attracted male who shares his apartment with his quote-unquote chosen brother

00:18:58.180 and refers to it as a committed friendship.

00:19:01.340 I mean, would you ever recommend that a man and a woman who are not married and are committed to sexual purity,

00:19:11.380 that they share an apartment together?

00:19:13.600 Of course not.

00:19:14.680 And that's what also I find within these side B and even like side A Christian circles,

00:19:20.740 is that there doesn't seem to be the same kind of commitment to general sexual purity

00:19:25.160 as there is among like side X or side Y Christians.

00:19:30.280 Again, go listen to that episode to get an explanation of all of those things.

00:19:34.540 But those of us who consider ourselves, you know, conservative Christians,

00:19:38.820 I would never encourage a young woman to live with a man 1.00

00:19:43.340 if she is trying to follow God's design for purity.

00:19:47.260 And so why would I encourage someone who is same-sex attracted, 1.00

00:19:50.600 who is trying to remain celibate and who is truly struggling against that

00:19:55.060 in an effort to work out his salvation with fear and trembling?

00:19:58.400 I would say never put yourself in the position of living with a man 1.00

00:20:01.960 where you are just going to be placed into temptation.

00:20:05.000 I would say that in itself is a sin.

00:20:07.860 Um, they have also raised money, Revoice has raised money during June,

00:20:13.680 what they call Pride Month, to support LGBTQ plus slash SSA communities. 0.99

00:20:20.020 More specifically, the money goes towards Reach,

00:20:22.060 a leadership development cohort that quote unquote equips LGBTQ plus slash SSA

00:20:27.520 Christ followers to become kingdom leaders.

00:20:30.900 So this is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about blurring the lines.

00:20:35.000 Um, when it comes to affirmation, which I think is sinful,

00:20:40.280 affirmation of sin versus truth-filled love,

00:20:44.340 acknowledging and submitting to God's design for sexuality, uh, and marriage

00:20:49.480 and resisting temptation towards disorder.

00:20:54.300 Uh, that's what Revoice does. 0.98

00:20:56.460 It blurs those lines to where a lot of Christians are confused.

00:21:00.360 Remember, God is not the God of confusion.

00:21:02.440 He is the God of peace.

00:21:03.840 This seems to be a group that thinks that they are nicer than God,

00:21:07.320 that they are kinder than God, they're more merciful than God,

00:21:10.300 that they can kind of let God off the hook for those inconvenient passages

00:21:13.880 like Genesis 1 or 1 Corinthians 6 or, uh, Romans 1.

00:21:18.360 We need to kind of caveat and nuance that and make it more palatable for a gay world.

00:21:25.200 And I don't think that's going to cut it.

00:21:27.220 I just don't.

00:21:27.760 I think that causes actually a lot more chaos.

00:21:30.260 And so Rosaria Butterfield's point has proven true that I think his dissertation,

00:21:36.680 maybe that's not what caused the establishment of Revoice.

00:21:39.940 Maybe that didn't lay the sole foundation for his book and his ideas,

00:21:43.820 which really have taken root in a lot of evangelicalism,

00:21:47.240 but it probably played a role when it never should have been accepted in the first place 0.98

00:21:52.800 because it was so ridiculous on its face. 0.70

00:21:55.480 And so, like, I see Rosaria Butterfield as such a prophetic voice. 0.81

00:22:01.680 And I don't even mean that in, like, the charismatic sense.

00:22:05.120 I just mean that she is a forthright,

00:22:09.620 forth-telling voice about the issues within Christianity,

00:22:14.680 the issues within the world.

00:22:15.860 And I see her rebukes, her calling out, her criticism as acts of courageous love.

00:22:23.620 I know that these days you hear any kind of negativity or criticism.

00:22:28.180 People take it as a personal attack.

00:22:31.420 I don't see it as that at all.

00:22:33.800 I see it as her caring so much about the body of Christ.

00:22:37.160 I see it.

00:22:38.000 She just has such intense compassion and experience because of the life that she lived.

00:22:42.360 She knows very well what it looks like to be deceived, even so recently as repenting

00:22:47.020 of this so-called pronoun politeness that she once engaged in for the sake of evangelism.

00:22:52.800 She now realizes that that's telling a lie,

00:22:55.640 that you are trying to be the aroma of Christ while affirming the stench of death.

00:23:01.640 And we can't do that.

00:23:03.100 And so I just, I always love when she speaks the truth.

00:23:06.620 She's such an encouragement to me.

00:23:09.000 And that's why you got to come hear her and share the arrows of it.

00:23:12.260 TheSeptemberShareTheEarrows.com.

00:23:14.920 All right.

00:23:15.540 So that's one thing that's going on in the Christian world today. 0.99

00:23:18.520 There is never a dull moment within evangelicalism.

00:23:21.720 And even in like all different subsets of Christianity, there is just so much going on.

00:23:27.320 So many fault lines being drawn.

00:23:30.440 And all of us are just trying to navigate it with as much truth and grace as we possibly can.

00:23:35.760 You guys are helping me do that.

00:23:39.060 So let us continue to spur one another on toward loving good works.

00:23:42.440 And actually, just to put a flying point on the last segment, let me just,

00:23:58.280 I'm going to read you a quote from Rosaria.

00:24:02.500 She says this after reading Psalm 113.

00:24:05.400 She said,

00:24:35.400 No one told me to pray the gay away because every sermon told me to drive a fresh nail

00:24:45.740 into every sin every day. 0.57

00:24:48.660 No one needed to.

00:24:50.680 Because every sermon told me to drive a fresh nail into every sin every day.

00:24:56.380 No one needed to.

00:24:58.760 Thought that was so good.

00:25:00.980 And actually, it's a good transition into our next topic about morality and what Jesus says

00:25:09.200 about sexual morality and not just what we do, but also what we think and what we look at.

00:25:17.220 And this centers on a video of Dennis Prager that has been going around on X recently,

00:25:24.580 although it is from 2023.

00:25:26.320 And he is with Charlie Kirk at Arizona State University for Turning Point USA's Health,

00:25:34.100 Wealth, and Happiness 2.0 event last year. 0.77

00:25:38.660 And he makes some comments about masturbation, about lust, about what Jesus actually has to say

00:25:48.180 about lust.

00:25:48.780 And let me say first that I really respect Dennis Prager.

00:25:54.520 I'm so thankful for the work that he has done, how PragerU has educated millions and millions

00:26:00.400 of people.

00:26:02.940 And so I really, really disagree with him on this.

00:26:07.080 And I think that this argument is harmful in a lot of ways.

00:26:11.660 But I agree with Dennis Prager on the vast majority of things.

00:26:15.440 And of course, I am just so thankful for his influence and his courage over the years.

00:26:20.280 But I just wanted to respond to this because I could see how this thinking is convincing

00:26:26.020 for a lot of people.

00:26:28.020 So you might remember last year, April 2023, Prager was a part of a discussion panel hosted

00:26:33.100 by Jordan Peterson, in which he said that lust and pornography are not a big deal to him

00:26:39.240 as a Jew, he says, because Judaism is only concerned with action or behavior of adultery,

00:26:46.020 not with the heart, as Christians believe.

00:26:50.600 And of course, that is simply not true.

00:26:53.160 Even if you look at the Ten Commandments, not even looking at it from a Christian perspective,

00:26:57.020 just from a Jewish perspective, you look at the Ten Commandments, what is one of the

00:27:01.120 Ten Commandments?

00:27:02.160 I mean, actually, a lot of the commandments really have to do with the heart and the mind

00:27:05.980 and your belief, not only what you do, but I think specifically of thou shalt not covet.

00:27:12.060 You shouldn't covet your neighbor's wife or your neighbor's ox or your neighbor's house.

00:27:17.280 You shouldn't even want something that is not yours.

00:27:20.460 It wasn't just thou shalt not steal that was already covered in the Ten Commandments.

00:27:25.480 It's like you shouldn't steal, but you also shouldn't even want something that is not

00:27:29.940 yours.

00:27:30.320 So, I don't think that you can look at God's law giving to Israel and deduce that God only 0.62

00:27:35.860 cares about what we do externally.

00:27:38.480 So, again, not even just looking at it from my Christian New Testament perspective, that's

00:27:44.160 not accurate.

00:27:45.600 But he also says that certain external actions are not sin.

00:27:51.780 And this was, again, in this conversation last year in 2023.

00:27:57.340 So, I'll let you listen to this for yourself.

00:28:01.660 Here is salt one. 0.98

00:28:03.440 If masturbation is evil, then I think we have raped the term evil of its moral power. 0.75

00:28:12.720 Masturbation may be a sin, and even that is debatable because there's nothing, not a 0.77

00:28:18.540 hint of masturbation being a sin in the Bible.

00:28:22.480 I know the Hebrew Bible.

00:28:23.960 I know the Torah almost by heart in Hebrew.

00:28:25.920 There is not a hint of masturbation being a sin in the Old Testament or in the New Testament.

00:28:36.920 Okay, so this is in response to a question that asked Dennis, you outraged many Christians

00:28:41.700 when you said on a podcast a few months ago that you don't believe, and this is something 0.94

00:28:45.440 that Dennis Prager said, that you don't believe masturbating to animated pictures of child

00:28:50.200 pornography is wrong or you don't find it evil. 0.99

00:28:52.460 This is fundamentally at odds with Christian teachings about lust, extramarital sex, and 0.79

00:28:56.960 sins of the heart.

00:28:57.600 Christ even says in Matthew 5, 29, that these sins are enough to lead souls to hell.

00:29:02.980 How can you say Judeo-Christian values are universal to both faiths when something as essential as

00:29:08.560 good and evil are different?

00:29:11.840 And so, I think that's a really good question.

00:29:13.960 He did say that at the time, and I'm pretty sure that we responded to it on the show.

00:29:19.600 And so, basically what he says is that not all sins are evil, not in any of our religions

00:29:26.020 to the best of my knowledge.

00:29:28.440 He says in Catholicism, for example, it is a sin if you are healthy enough to go to Mass

00:29:33.060 and you never go.

00:29:33.980 But I don't know any Catholics that would say you're evil or it is evil if you don't attend

00:29:40.020 Mass.

00:29:40.420 This seems to me kind of some kind of semantic debate.

00:29:44.520 He says all evil is sin, but not every sin is evil.

00:29:48.380 I guess it depends on how you are defining evil.

00:29:55.080 He says, if you want to call masturbation evil, fine. 0.97

00:29:59.720 I use the term evil for rape, torture, murder, and the like. 0.99

00:30:02.680 If masturbation is evil, he says, then we have raped the term evil of its moral power. 0.98

00:30:08.400 You heard him say that in the clip. 0.97

00:30:13.620 And then he goes on to specifically answer this part about AI, child sex abuse material.

00:30:19.120 He says, let me just say my thinking has changed on the issue of artificial intelligence and

00:30:23.760 child porn.

00:30:24.740 I am now 100% opposed to it.

00:30:26.760 By the way, if all pornography were eradicated, we would have a much better society.

00:30:31.120 I just want to make that clear.

00:30:32.800 That is my position, which is really good to hear.

00:30:35.600 I'm so glad to hear that because really what started this conversation was even before

00:30:41.580 what he said about artificial intelligence, child sex abuse material was when he said publicly

00:30:50.880 that he didn't think that pornography was necessarily wrong, that it's not necessarily a bad thing

00:30:56.860 to look at porn.

00:30:57.600 So it seems like he has changed his position on that. 0.99

00:31:02.620 And then he goes on to talk more about masturbation.

00:31:07.820 He says, if God thinks that that is a sin, you have a different God than I do.

00:31:13.160 He says, my God has common sense, loves human beings, and understands that circumstances determine

00:31:18.300 a lot of things.

00:31:19.140 Is it wrong to lie?

00:31:20.120 Is it a sin to lie?

00:31:21.720 Yes.

00:31:21.940 Where the Germans are the Poles who hid a Jew and lied to Nazis about hiding a Jew. 0.79

00:31:26.000 Did they commit a sin?

00:31:27.460 And then he speaks to what I think a lot of our response would be, okay, but lust is always

00:31:34.120 a sin.

00:31:34.520 That's not really a circumstantial thing.

00:31:36.640 Jesus said it would be better to pluck out your eye than to look lustfully after a woman. 0.98

00:31:43.940 He then argued that we are alienating people from God if we interpret Matthew 5.29 as Jesus

00:31:52.520 prohibiting lust.

00:31:54.620 Here's Sato.

00:31:55.460 This is why religion turns people off. 0.97

00:31:59.060 When you go around telling people masturbation is a sin and you're committing evil, believe 0.97

00:32:04.120 me, you are not bringing people to God. 0.76

00:32:06.520 You are alienating people from God.

00:32:09.120 In the Christian belief, private thought, private belief, it's not necessarily as sinful, but

00:32:14.320 there's gradations of sin as well.

00:32:16.540 And it's hotly debated, but I think it's clear Christ said to lust after a woman.

00:32:21.040 Well, he didn't actually, and there's no reason you would know this.

00:32:24.360 No, no, no, no.

00:32:26.040 In fact, almost no Christian knows this.

00:32:29.260 I did research because I didn't believe Jesus said that because Jesus was a Jew.

00:32:35.640 It's not normative in Judaism that thinking something is equivalent to doing something.

00:32:42.200 And he was very normative in virtually all of his teachings.

00:32:48.160 So Charlie clearly disagrees with Dennis Prager there and is trying to speak up and push

00:32:54.120 back against him.

00:32:55.400 And I, of course, agree with Charlie on this because it is very obvious that Jesus is speaking

00:33:01.760 against less.

00:33:02.440 And of course, if you see this in context, what Jesus is doing to all of the laws is saying,

00:33:07.240 look, all of these laws were always about the heart.

00:33:09.660 And so I think that Jesus would have the same message, Dennis Prager, as he did to his audience

00:33:16.820 then as he was speaking even to the Pharisees when he was like, no, it's not enough that you

00:33:22.480 have this external obedience.

00:33:23.760 This law was always supposed to go down to heartfelt obedience, to heart-driven obedience.

00:33:30.820 So it's not enough not to steal.

00:33:34.500 You also shouldn't covet.

00:33:36.440 It's not enough not to just commit adultery.

00:33:39.160 You also shouldn't lust.

00:33:42.500 And so that is the point of this passage in Matthew 5, that real faith is not just about

00:33:49.780 externally what you do.

00:33:51.440 It was always supposed to be at the heart level, the soul level, the motivation level.

00:33:57.720 And so he goes on to say that it's actually been mistranslated from the Greek.

00:34:02.520 He said, if you covet another woman, it is as if you committed adultery with your heart.

00:34:06.660 That's what he's arguing Jesus actually meant.

00:34:08.600 And he says, I happen to agree with that coveting is banned in the Ten Commandments.

00:34:11.920 I know the Ten Commandments by heart in Hebrew.

00:34:14.280 There's a difference between covet and lust.

00:34:17.980 Well, I'm not so sure that there is.

00:34:20.280 If you are wanting another man's wife, if you are wanting a woman that is not your own, 0.98

00:34:25.380 that is a form of lust.

00:34:26.500 You are desiring something that is not yours.

00:34:29.700 He says there's no prohibition of lust in the Old Testament.

00:34:34.980 There's a prohibition on coveting.

00:34:36.800 So that must have been what Jesus meant.

00:34:41.440 Again, I think that this is probably comes down to semantics.

00:34:45.820 And of course, words are important.

00:34:47.520 Interpretation is important.

00:34:49.300 But to say that Jesus did not prohibit lust, that would not be in keeping with our understanding

00:34:56.280 of Scripture as a whole, and certainly not Jesus' message as a whole, not the New Testament

00:35:00.560 as a whole.

00:35:02.400 And our understanding about sin and human nature and how God is killing the old self and giving

00:35:08.240 us a new self.

00:35:09.500 Of course, Jesus is talking about the desires of our heart.

00:35:25.960 All right.

00:35:26.720 So here is thought three of Dennis Prager.

00:35:29.080 I just want to say I have brought more Americans to Christianity than any living Christian.

00:35:34.760 Okay.

00:35:35.380 That is that I know that for a fact.

00:35:37.900 I brought more Jews to Judaism than any living Jew.

00:35:42.060 So I know how to make the case for God and Bible and religion really effectively.

00:35:48.120 And I'm telling you, when we come out with stuff that people just intuitively understand,

00:35:54.120 that doesn't make moral sense.

00:35:56.800 We are not doing God or our Bible any service.

00:36:01.420 Okay.

00:36:02.040 I'm not really sure how you quantify that.

00:36:03.920 I praise God if there have been people who have been brought to Christianity through Dennis

00:36:08.040 Prager.

00:36:08.480 He does talk about the Bible.

00:36:09.860 And as we know, the Word of God does not return void.

00:36:11.960 So I think it's entirely possible that someone would have started reading the Bible because

00:36:15.740 of Dennis Prager talking about the Bible, and then they would have realized the truth

00:36:19.580 of God's Word and the truth of Christianity.

00:36:21.860 And I absolutely praise God for that.

00:36:23.720 As I said, Dennis Prager has done absolutely a lot of good work.

00:36:26.160 I'm not really sure how you quantify that he has brought more people to Christianity than

00:36:31.060 any living Christian.

00:36:32.680 In fact, I can probably say that that is absolutely not true, because Dennis Prager does good work

00:36:38.940 when he is talking about some really important issues, and maybe even when he is talking about

00:36:43.680 Scripture too.

00:36:45.060 But he does not believe in the gospel, and so he has not shared the gospel.

00:36:48.860 And I promise you that there are Christians who have shared the gospel, maybe people we

00:36:54.460 don't even know, whose names we don't even know, who God has used to bring more people

00:36:59.480 to Christ, because his gospel is the good news that people are then latching on to.

00:37:05.900 And as I've said many times, we don't have to apologize for God.

00:37:08.460 We don't have to take him off the hook.

00:37:10.720 We don't have to pretend like his word is too hard to do or too hard to understand, because

00:37:15.620 the Holy Spirit gives us understanding.

00:37:17.200 It gives us the ability to obey.

00:37:19.500 Again, when God makes us new, a new creation, he also empowers us to obey him.

00:37:24.820 And it's always going to be a struggle against the flesh, but struggling against lust is that

00:37:29.860 struggle against the flesh.

00:37:31.140 I think actually, intuitively, we understand that masturbation and that lusting after someone 0.83

00:37:37.960 else is not right.

00:37:39.460 I actually think people really intuitively understand that, because you take a secular couple, and

00:37:45.120 the woman is sitting there at dinner across from her boyfriend or for her husband, that 1.00

00:37:52.340 guy leans over and checks out the back of the waitress. 1.00

00:37:56.700 Do you think that secular woman thinks, that's awesome? 1.00

00:38:00.120 That is great.

00:38:00.920 At least he's not cheating on me.

00:38:02.460 It's totally fine.

00:38:03.740 I guarantee you that at least 90% of women, if not more, no matter their background would 1.00

00:38:10.640 say, are you freaking kidding me?

00:38:12.600 Are you kidding?

00:38:13.660 And then that would start a fight, because there is something innate in us that wants

00:38:17.640 faithfulness, that wants loyalty, that wants exclusivity, wants monogamy.

00:38:22.640 And not just in deed, but also in thought.

00:38:26.820 Most women or men, if they found out that their significant other was thinking about other people,

00:38:33.480 that would be a big problem.

00:38:34.860 Because they would say, okay, you're dissatisfied with me.

00:38:37.000 You are wanting something that I am not giving you, and that would cause a lot of heartache

00:38:41.540 and despair. 0.97

00:38:42.120 So I think he's wrong when he says that intuitively people understand that masturbation and lust

00:38:46.960 are not really evil, they're not really sins, and we don't need to worry about that.

00:38:51.020 We mostly just need to focus on, you know, externalities.

00:38:56.420 I don't think so.

00:38:57.580 I think that's a secular way of thinking.

00:38:59.500 I honestly think that is a morally delusional way of thinking.

00:39:03.480 And it certainly is an anti-gospel, anti-Jesus way of thinking that he takes over the whole

00:39:11.960 self, the whole heart, that there is not a centimeter of the self that Christ does not

00:39:18.840 say mine to.

00:39:21.180 When he becomes king, when he becomes ruler, he takes over.

00:39:26.120 He gets rid of the old man bit by bit throughout our lives.

00:39:29.700 It is a painful process, that process of refining, that process of sanctification, that process

00:39:35.700 of holiness.

00:39:36.240 It is letting go of our selfishness.

00:39:38.540 It's letting go of our lust.

00:39:40.200 It's letting go of our desires and getting something better, more fulfilling, more satisfying.

00:39:49.040 And I think that that's kind of what ties the first two segments of this podcast together,

00:39:54.080 that understanding that the gospel really is better than the things we want in this life,

00:39:59.820 no matter how much we want them.

00:40:03.040 All right.

00:40:03.960 That's all we got for the serious aspects of this podcast.

00:40:08.360 Now we have to talk about one final thing to end our week.

00:40:13.940 And I will bring producer Brie in on this.

00:40:16.480 And that has to do, have you heard this term before?

00:40:19.500 That has to do with passenger princesses, a passenger princess.

00:40:25.720 Have you heard of this term?

00:40:27.680 So there was this tweet that went viral on Axe or post that went viral on Axe that says,

00:40:34.320 this lady just picked her husband up from the airport, kissed him, and immediately went 1.00

00:40:39.160 to the passenger seat LMAO.

00:40:42.200 And this post got like tens of thousands of likes.

00:40:45.780 I don't even know how many likes it has now.

00:40:47.800 And then I quote tweeted this, and I didn't think it would get as much traction as it did

00:40:53.240 my response to it.

00:40:54.360 But I said, does every wife not do this? 0.98

00:40:57.260 Unless my husband is recovering from major surgery, I ain't driving.

00:41:02.180 And that is the truth.

00:41:03.480 I think my husband might actually say, no, even if I'm recovering from major surgery, you're

00:41:10.660 not driving.

00:41:11.200 And some people who desperately need to go touch their hand on grass were very upset with my

00:41:22.400 response for some reason.

00:41:23.960 Like some of the quote tweets on my tweet and some of the responses, the replies to both

00:41:28.800 my tweet and the original tweet were so just unabashedly misogynistic and weird that I feel

00:41:36.200 like I have to explain myself, although I'm sure a lot of you understand the dynamic at

00:41:40.920 play here and why we are in fact passenger princesses when our husbands are around.

00:41:46.460 Okay, so let me just play you this TikTok.

00:42:00.780 This will give you a visual of what a passenger princess is. 0.68

00:42:04.020 And even I can't totally relate to this exact setup.

00:42:08.220 This is the general situation that we're talking about.

00:42:11.680 Stop five.

00:42:16.460 Okay, so a passenger princess is a woman who gets in the front seat. 1.00

00:42:46.440 front seat and gets comfortable.

00:42:49.340 And basically, you've got your just your miniature little oasis there.

00:42:54.800 You're just like a little, I don't know, cube of luxury.

00:43:01.020 You have everything exactly how you want it.

00:43:03.580 You've got your drink receptacles at least two, probably three.

00:43:07.580 For me, it's usually coffee, water and like some kind of juicer protein shake.

00:43:12.580 She's got her bag.

00:43:13.560 She's got her blanket.

00:43:14.500 She's got her slippers.

00:43:15.400 She's got her music.

00:43:17.220 And then your husband is the one who has to navigate and has to drive.

00:43:22.020 And your job when you get in the car is to think about absolutely nothing.

00:43:25.520 You just completely check out.

00:43:27.060 You cannot even be trusted to tell him when the next turn is because that is not your job.

00:43:32.100 When you are a passenger princess, you just get in and you let him drive. 0.93

00:43:36.480 Now, the only difference between this TikTok situation and then my situation with my husband,

00:43:42.800 because I guess I am a passenger princess.

00:43:44.440 I had never heard this term before I tweeted what I did, is that I probably wouldn't bring

00:43:51.040 a blanket.

00:43:52.180 I would definitely not turn the heat up like she did.

00:43:54.720 And I would not put my feet up on the dash.

00:43:56.780 And my husband would not want me to put my feet up on the dash because that is dangerous.

00:44:02.880 But other and also if we have kids in the car, that whole thing about her like taking the 1.00

00:44:07.500 phone and turning it to the music that she wanted, that would never happen.

00:44:10.480 Because everyone knows when you have kids in the car, kids are in charge of what is being

00:44:15.080 listened to.

00:44:16.100 And you do that so then you can actually have a conversation with your spouse in the front row.

00:44:24.080 So that would be the only distinction there.

00:44:26.820 But it's a great dynamic.

00:44:30.280 It's a great dynamic.

00:44:31.900 And my husband wants it to be that way.

00:44:34.980 He wants me to be able to get in the car and to not have to think about anything and for him to

00:44:39.400 drive.

00:44:39.680 He wants to drive.

00:44:41.000 It's not like I insist on being a passenger princess.

00:44:44.100 This is the dynamic my husband prefers.

00:44:46.860 I do not drive on road trips.

00:44:48.400 I completely would if he asked me to.

00:44:51.520 But I never do.

00:44:52.480 It doesn't matter if we are driving 15 hours.

00:44:54.440 I do not drive one hour.

00:44:55.640 Again, I would.

00:44:56.980 But he does not want me to.

00:44:58.340 So I have a passenger princess for life.

00:45:01.800 Now, let me just read you.

00:45:04.080 I'll just read you one response.

00:45:05.480 There were a lot of deranged responses.

00:45:07.740 But this person responded, I'm legit starting to think there's something wrong with women. 1.00

00:45:13.180 Why are you so many averse to driving?

00:45:15.880 It actually and legitimately might help y'all get over your neuroses.

00:45:21.120 I'm not a neurotic person, by the way.

00:45:24.300 Self-determinate forward momentum.

00:45:28.940 Really does improve negative emotion.

00:45:32.160 Okay.

00:45:32.420 Self-determinate forward momentum.

00:45:34.820 Like walking?

00:45:36.400 Like just moving forward.

00:45:37.740 Like you know that I still do that, right?

00:45:39.500 Like I'm not a wheelchair princess.

00:45:41.840 Like I don't make him push me around everywhere.

00:45:44.240 And you know that we drive like we do drive.

00:45:47.620 I drive myself.

00:45:49.180 I drive my kids all the time.

00:45:50.840 It's not like my husband is my chauffeur.

00:45:53.120 It's just that when my husband is with me, he is going to be in the driver's seat.

00:45:58.500 And that's normal.

00:46:00.500 And some people also like, oh my gosh, the gender dynamics among fundamentalists, among Americans. 0.99

00:46:07.760 They're so crazy. 1.00

00:46:09.060 It's so ugly. 0.99

00:46:10.560 No one said that you have to do that, Miss Mary Sue.

00:46:15.020 If you want to drive and you want your husband to be a passenger prince, and that is the dynamic that you'll have, then I love that for you, Mary Sue.

00:46:26.240 I truly do.

00:46:27.200 So now, Bree, we were talking about this and you were saying, oh, you don't know if you have anything to say, but okay, I know that you drive yourself, but do you enjoy driving?

00:46:38.400 Would you prefer to be a passenger princess?

00:46:41.240 Yeah, of course.

00:46:42.400 I actually consider myself a really good driver.

00:46:45.040 Yeah.

00:46:45.280 But if I had the opportunity to be a passenger princess, yeah, absolutely.

00:46:51.340 To turn my mind off?

00:46:52.780 Yes.

00:46:53.440 Yeah.

00:46:54.040 I'm an aspiring passenger princess.

00:46:55.980 Yes, an aspiring passenger princess, a potential passenger princess.

00:47:01.800 So you don't think it is, I don't know, speaking to the laziness or the uselessness of women, like some people were saying on X.

00:47:10.200 Yeah, no, I don't.

00:47:13.020 I don't think that.

00:47:14.520 No, I think it's also just kind of like a cute trend.

00:47:17.480 And I think people need to get over that.

00:47:19.420 Yeah, they really do.

00:47:21.200 You know what?

00:47:21.800 Going into a holiday week and, you know, a travel week and a travel season, I just want to say cheers to all of you fellow passenger princesses out there.

00:47:33.360 We will be passenger princessing it up over the next few weeks.

00:47:38.140 All right.

00:47:38.580 That's all we've got for this week.

00:47:39.840 We will be back here on Monday.

00:47:41.900 We will be back here on Monday.

00:47:51.140 Thank you.

00:47:53.340 Thank you.

00:47:54.820 Thank you.

00:47:55.100 Take care.

00:47:55.400 Take care.

00:47:55.520 Take care.

00:47:55.620 Bye.

00:47:55.960 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 27, 2024

Ep 1027 ｜ Rosaria Butterfield Rebukes Seminaries, Dennis Prager Defends Lust

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