Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1041 ｜ Granger Smith on Suicide, Self-Love & IVF ｜ Guest： Granger Smith

00:00:00.700 Granger Smith is a former country artist.

00:00:03.900 He left the industry a few years ago after God called him elsewhere, and God is using

00:00:08.580 him and his family in absolutely incredible ways to share the testimony of redemption

00:00:14.840 of his family after tragedy struck a few years ago.

00:00:19.140 We talk not just about his own spiritual journey, but about marriage, about parenting after

00:00:25.000 losing a child.

00:00:26.660 We also talk about going through IVF and what he thinks about that reproductive technology

00:00:32.940 today.

00:00:33.840 Oh my goodness.

00:00:35.980 This was an absolutely amazing and such an edifying conversation that you guys are going to love

00:00:42.060 so much.

00:00:43.120 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:45.240 Go to goodranchers.com.

00:00:46.780 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:00:48.000 That's goodranchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:56.660 Granger, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:03.160 I'm sure most watching this know exactly who you are, but for those who might not, can

00:01:08.080 you tell us who you are and what you do?

00:01:10.360 Yes.

00:01:10.880 I guess first, I'm a former country music singer, and I've been saying that for 10 months now

00:01:17.660 as we record this, and I was a country singer for most of my life, about 25 years, touring

00:01:24.440 and putting out albums.

00:01:26.500 Can I just pause and say you do not look like you could have been doing something for 25 years?

00:01:32.500 I saw that your first album came out in 1999, and I was like, a child star?

00:01:37.140 I can't, I mean, you just don't look like you had already a 25-year career.

00:01:43.820 That's incredible.

00:01:44.680 Anyway.

00:01:45.000 Well, thank you.

00:01:46.520 And it has been, it has taken up, it's consumed most of my life, and so this is a new season

00:01:52.500 I'm in.

00:01:53.640 It's been an amazing season, a sweet season for the family and I.

00:02:00.040 A season of equipping, really, in ministry, I think that's probably the best way to look

00:02:04.880 at it.

00:02:05.220 It's, I've just been, I'm trying to be poured into as much as I can in a lot of different

00:02:10.120 ways.

00:02:10.760 And tell me a little more about that decision to leave country music.

00:02:13.980 Like you said, it had dominated your life for a long time.

00:02:17.140 That's a huge change.

00:02:18.660 Yeah, for sure.

00:02:19.480 Well, I think the catalyst, no doubt, is, is, was June 4th, 2019.

00:02:23.840 We lost our little boy, River.

00:02:25.500 He was three.

00:02:27.340 And, and after that, um, my perspective was real, was really rocked.

00:02:35.220 I was, I've, there's never been a time in my life I didn't consider myself a Christian.

00:02:40.780 Um, and, and so I, I, there's a problem with that inherently to, to think that you're born

00:02:47.240 a Christian.

00:02:47.640 No one is born a Christian. 0.99

00:02:49.260 Um, Jesus says you must be born again.

00:02:51.660 And so I'd never really thought about that.

00:02:54.020 And, and, and the reason I knew my upbringing, going to church, being able to articulate the

00:03:00.920 gospel, um, being able to defend at some level, the faith was always a part of my life.

00:03:07.680 Camps, youth camps, FCAs, things like that.

00:03:10.160 But when, when this kind of tragedy struck losing our boy, I realized now, especially in hindsight,

00:03:19.260 looking back, there were no fruits of a, of a salvific hope in Jesus, because I, I felt

00:03:29.380 like I lost everything.

00:03:30.800 I felt like I had no hope, no rest, no peace.

00:03:35.800 I w I found out, especially now looking back that I was, um, so into self-help and fixing

00:03:43.380 myself that really that's, that's what I relied on.

00:03:46.380 So the, this, I say all that because that was the beginning of the journey to where I am

00:03:50.140 now out of country music.

00:03:51.460 And, and, and that wasn't the reason I got out, but it was, it started turning the gears

00:03:56.980 on where was I in my faith?

00:04:00.620 Did I really trust in Jesus?

00:04:03.280 And that, that only got worse.

00:04:06.000 In fact, after about, about six months after losing Riv, um, I was at a complete place of

00:04:11.760 rock bottom where I just didn't want to live anymore.

00:04:13.800 And it was really through the, that dark night, um, that I began a new search, a search of

00:04:23.100 who is Jesus really had, had I for so many years underestimated what he said.

00:04:27.840 Yeah.

00:04:28.320 And it sounds, that sounds pretty simple that maybe when Jesus said things and when his apostles

00:04:37.160 said things and when the prophets before him said things, maybe they really meant it at

00:04:41.260 face value.

00:04:43.060 And I don't really think that it occurred to me that it had been that simple.

00:04:46.540 Right.

00:04:46.940 That when he says things like, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, take up

00:04:51.020 his cross and follow me.

00:04:52.920 Did he, did he mean anything less by that statement?

00:04:56.560 And so I really started wrestling with those things and that really came to a head three

00:05:01.740 months later after just an intense journey of listening to preachers and trying to find out

00:05:08.080 where I stood with all of this.

00:05:10.940 And it was finally listening to a sermon on March 1st after that year.

00:05:17.320 And the preacher was preaching out of John 14.

00:05:20.940 And there was something about that.

00:05:23.660 And I've listened to so many conversion stories or read so many conversion stories and they're

00:05:27.260 always different.

00:05:28.040 No one really has the same verse, but for some reason, this one rocked me.

00:05:31.200 The disciple asked Jesus, Lord, why is it that you manifest yourself to us, but not to the

00:05:38.220 world?

00:05:39.660 And I'm hearing this and thinking, great question.

00:05:43.900 What's he going to say?

00:05:45.620 Because I think this might be my answer.

00:05:47.560 This might be what I've been searching for.

00:05:49.280 Like, have I underestimated him all these years?

00:05:51.560 And he says, in a way that Jesus did so many times in some kind of reverse psychology, he

00:05:57.660 says, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will

00:06:05.060 come to him and make our home with him.

00:06:08.900 And suddenly I knew I was loved.

00:06:12.040 I was redeemed.

00:06:14.440 Overwhelmingly, I felt adopted, healed, restored.

00:06:18.200 And yet, at the same time, with all of those emotions hitting me at once, I also knew that

00:06:24.000 Jesus was identifying his followers as people that kept his word, and I didn't know his word.

00:06:30.340 So at the same time, feeling and knowing I was restored, I also suddenly had an intense

00:06:35.980 desire to know his word so that I could keep it.

00:06:40.120 And I also realized that for all these years, I had listened to preachers and gone to church

00:06:45.700 and done the things, and the Bible wasn't at the center of all of that.

00:06:50.300 And so for the first time ever, I realized the Bible was something I needed to consume 0.97

00:06:54.840 on my own, in my own time, daily, so that I could know all of his word, so that then I

00:07:00.980 could keep it.

00:07:01.580 And that began a new journey of reading his word.

00:07:05.380 As I read his word now, they're like, this is the timeline for me, getting to the whole

00:07:09.560 country music question, so then the timeline continues, I find what I truly believe is

00:07:16.460 a Matthew 13, 44 treasure, a hidden treasure in a field that a man found and covered up

00:07:22.180 that in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field, and I'm trying

00:07:26.300 to reconcile this, and I'm trying to reconcile, if anyone would come after me, let him take

00:07:30.920 up his cross and follow me, let him deny himself, and I'm reconciling this with going on stage

00:07:37.260 and receiving glory and needing attention and receiving praise, and I'm saying, it's

00:07:45.140 okay, that stuff's okay, because I'm telling people the gospel on the stage, or I'm seeing

00:07:48.760 an amazing grace, so it's all worth it, or is it?

00:07:52.600 Because something was still, had me tied up a little bit on the inside, and I was thinking,

00:07:58.400 okay, well, Romans 12, 2 said, I should test myself by discerning the will of God with

00:08:06.660 my mind, by the renewal of my mind, so let me test myself on the stage, and I go up there

00:08:12.340 after several times on the stage, and I would think, I'm going to totally test my heart,

00:08:18.280 my position as I'm performing music, and I would think, why are those people in the front

00:08:23.720 row not, why are they not raising their hand, what's wrong with them?

00:08:26.620 Uh-oh.

00:08:28.740 Then I would think, why are those seats in the back not full?

00:08:31.880 It was full last time we came, what's wrong with this town?

00:08:34.820 And then I just knew, I'm in sin.

00:08:38.900 Performing is causing me to sin.

00:08:40.900 This is a sin for me.

00:08:42.940 And even at that, even recognizing that, I didn't immediately think, well, I'm going to quit it.

00:08:48.760 But I just thought, there's something inherently wrong with all of this.

00:08:54.240 Reconciling the idea that, well, God gave you a gift to sing, so you should use that platform

00:08:58.480 for Him.

00:08:59.720 And God's going, I get my glory how I get my glory.

00:09:02.840 So I wrestled with this for a few years, and before I realized it wasn't a record label

00:09:09.860 I needed to give up, which I did.

00:09:11.560 It wasn't a radio single, which I needed to give up, which I did.

00:09:15.000 It was all of it.

00:09:16.420 I needed to surrender music, performing, all of it.

00:09:20.920 And so I actually, when I first thought of that, when I first knew, and I felt peace in

00:09:25.940 just thinking that, admitting that to myself, I came to my wife and said, I'm leaving music.

00:09:31.120 And it wasn't totally in a vacuum, because she knew I had been wrestling with it.

00:09:34.680 And she said, okay, when?

00:09:35.820 And I said, I guess right now.

00:09:38.900 And she said, no, you owe it to people to at least do a farewell tour so you could say

00:09:44.540 goodbye.

00:09:45.160 And I'm glad she said that.

00:09:46.780 I believe she was right to kind of ramp it down and tell everybody why I was doing this.

00:09:52.540 And then August, I believe the 26th of last year was the final show.

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00:10:59.640 I kind of want to go back to, you said that you hit rock bottom after your son River died.

00:11:07.620 That's a parent's worst nightmare.

00:11:09.460 I have a three-year-old as well as two other kids and I haven't been through that, but I

00:11:15.840 can imagine, I think you've written it was a drowning accident.

00:11:18.520 So just completely unexpected out of nowhere.

00:11:22.660 I can just, I can imagine just the absolute turmoil and feeling like, is there any reason

00:11:31.840 for me to even go on?

00:11:34.220 Can you talk about that moment and why, how you decided to step toward truth, light, and

00:11:45.520 the Lord rather than a way?

00:11:47.800 Because a lot of people, even people who profess to be Christians, they would say, well, I'm

00:11:52.960 not serving a God who would do this.

00:11:54.820 And there's so much evil that goes on in this world.

00:11:58.340 This is so unfair.

00:11:59.980 Why him?

00:12:01.260 Forget the faith stuff.

00:12:02.840 But that's not what happened for you.

00:12:04.680 So can you talk about that?

00:12:07.320 Yeah, I mean, that question, we could probably sit here for about seven hours and not fully

00:12:13.260 come close to unpacking the problem of evil, what happens in a man's heart when he decides

00:12:20.620 to go one way, when he could have gone the other.

00:12:22.440 Um, when we, we also know that, that, that the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord

00:12:28.280 establishes his steps.

00:12:30.440 And so I want to say, before I answer any of that, I want to say that the Lord saved me.

00:12:38.580 And if I face him tomorrow or today, and he says, why, Granger, why did you choose me

00:12:45.900 instead of going the, the, the other way?

00:12:48.900 And I said, Lord, it's only by your grace.

00:12:54.360 Only by your grace is, do, do I stand here through the sacrifice of your son, because I

00:13:00.720 deserve hell.

00:13:03.000 And only by the grace of your son, do I, do I have the ability to stand before God that

00:13:10.740 that's it?

00:13:12.020 And so when I look back on the dark day, there was, there was no reason why I was on the

00:13:19.340 back of my tour bus with a gun deciding that I would just, the world would be better without

00:13:25.180 me.

00:13:25.560 And in that moment, only by the grace of God, I noticed something.

00:13:32.880 And I noticed that I was not alone, but, but not in a, not in a profound angel sitting on my

00:13:42.820 shoulder.

00:13:43.100 I noticed that there was something else, another presence that was speaking to me through my

00:13:51.220 thoughts.

00:13:51.500 That's kind of the, this is, it's a hard thing to describe, and I think that's the best

00:13:55.960 way to put it.

00:13:57.060 And it was, it was pure evil.

00:14:00.760 It was a voice that, that said, this is the way, this is the way to rest.

00:14:08.940 This is the way to peace.

00:14:10.660 Just pull the trigger.

00:14:11.680 And so looking back now, it was only by the grace of God, I, I, there was a certain amount

00:14:19.740 of discernment that suddenly I realized that's not me thinking these things.

00:14:24.700 There's, there's an, there's something else influencing me right now.

00:14:27.960 And how long have I left this door open for this, for this enemy that has now surrounded

00:14:34.460 me, outnumbered me, and is about to take me out.

00:14:37.000 And I felt all that in that moment.

00:14:39.080 I felt this is Ephesians 6, spiritual war.

00:14:42.560 I'm in it.

00:14:43.200 Yes, that's exactly, yes.

00:14:43.960 I'm in it.

00:14:44.740 And I realized that.

00:14:46.440 And then it was at that point when I, at, at, at rock bottom with nothing else, I had

00:14:52.540 no weapons to defend myself against this enemy.

00:14:56.140 That's when I said, Lord Jesus, please, God, please save me.

00:15:00.040 And then the, that voice stopped and I felt just enough peace to drop that gun.

00:15:05.960 And I slid down to the floor and, and, and cried myself to sleep.

00:15:10.180 Yeah.

00:15:10.740 That's when the new, new journey started.

00:15:13.240 Oh, I think I've underestimated who Jesus is.

00:15:16.520 Yeah.

00:15:17.600 That's what started everything.

00:15:18.720 That was the catalyst.

00:15:19.780 Wow.

00:15:20.760 You have a video on your Instagram, which I thought was really powerful, where you say

00:15:26.220 that suicide is actually the ultimate act of self-love.

00:15:31.840 Now, some people hearing that out there, they're like, what in the world are you talking about?

00:15:36.020 That self-loathing, that self-hatred.

00:15:38.080 I 100% agree with you, have said the, a very similar thing that it is for love of flesh and

00:15:47.300 for comfort that someone would take their own life because it is escaping the pain.

00:15:53.980 It's escaping the trial.

00:15:55.700 Can you talk more about that?

00:15:57.280 Cause some people have never heard that message.

00:15:59.260 Yeah.

00:15:59.540 And a lot of people really disagree with me on that.

00:16:03.980 And I guess you too.

00:16:05.140 No, I don't disagree.

00:16:06.560 I know.

00:16:06.840 I know.

00:16:07.120 But people disagree with you.

00:16:08.560 Oh yes, yes, yes.

00:16:09.740 I totally agree.

00:16:10.780 Yes.

00:16:11.300 People are, they resist that idea.

00:16:16.900 Um, they think it's a very dangerous idea.

00:16:20.380 Look, I'm not really, I'm not really in the business of, uh, giving soft ideas.

00:16:25.200 I think I'm going to say some things that are dangerous.

00:16:28.120 Um, and, and I'm certainly not always right about things, but I feel from my own, I've

00:16:35.680 tried to unpack this for a long time.

00:16:37.300 And every time I go up against it, I, and, and I'm, I'm looking at it with the lens of

00:16:43.600 what scripture tells us, then, then suicide is the pinnacle of self-love.

00:16:50.420 And like you said, people immediately knee-jerk and go, no, it's not, it's self-hate.

00:16:56.340 And I say, what is self-hate?

00:16:58.840 Because the opposite of love is indifference.

00:17:03.760 And so hate is actually very closely related.

00:17:06.720 Self-hate and self-love are actually very closely related.

00:17:09.740 It takes a very similar emotion for that because the opposite of both of those things is indifference.

00:17:14.420 And indifference and no one is indifferent to themselves.

00:17:17.740 Like I, I, you know what?

00:17:19.320 I don't, I don't love or hate myself.

00:17:21.380 I'm just indifferent to myself.

00:17:23.020 I don't really care.

00:17:23.880 I don't care what I eat.

00:17:25.100 I don't care if I get a good night's sleep.

00:17:26.840 I don't care about anything in the flesh.

00:17:29.260 No one is like that.

00:17:30.980 We always are paying close attention to ourselves and satisfying our flesh constantly.

00:17:36.060 And so the ultimate form of that is saying, you know what?

00:17:40.560 I'm going to end this because that gives me rest.

00:17:44.300 That gives me peace to this flesh that is screaming out. 0.92

00:17:48.240 You may say you hate it and that's okay too.

00:17:50.800 I think that's very similar.

00:17:52.660 But even if you, even with self-hate, the pinnacle of it is saying, I'm going to end it.

00:17:57.560 Regardless of what family thinks, our friends or anyone else around me, I'm doing this for me.

00:18:03.440 And the people instantly, their, their, their immediate reaction is no, suicide is not for

00:18:09.540 yourself.

00:18:10.040 It is so that you're relieving other people of your burden.

00:18:13.640 And I say, well, let's really think about that.

00:18:16.460 I know that sounds nicer and that, that sounds sweeter.

00:18:21.140 That's, that's a softer blow to say, no, the suicide's for others to help them not have

00:18:26.460 the burden of the person.

00:18:28.560 Is it?

00:18:29.320 I think we should really think about where the heart of suicide is.

00:18:35.880 Right.

00:18:36.740 Right.

00:18:37.460 While self-love has been, I think, almost adopted by some well-meaning Christians as the 11th 0.64

00:18:47.760 commandment or as implicit within Jesus's commandment to love others as we love ourselves.

00:18:56.360 And I say, no, that's not a command to love ourselves.

00:19:00.220 No, it is.

00:19:01.200 What he is saying is you naturally love yourself.

00:19:04.320 Absolutely.

00:19:04.920 And as you so naturally, instinctively seek to meet your own needs, seek to meet the needs

00:19:11.320 of others.

00:19:11.780 We don't need instruction or encouragement to love ourselves.

00:19:14.920 In fact, when we read that word self-love in the New Testament, it's talking about the

00:19:19.360 evil of the end times that they will be lovers of self.

00:19:24.020 So I agree with you.

00:19:25.540 I 100% agree with that.

00:19:27.420 Yeah.

00:19:27.760 And it's controversial to say, but the truth is, is that we don't need self-love to treat

00:19:35.020 ourselves well or to treat others well, is that we are compelled by the love of Christ.

00:19:40.680 Self-love undulates.

00:19:42.900 It waxes and wanes, but Christ's love stays the same.

00:19:47.160 And that's really good news.

00:19:48.460 It's actually much better news than the gospel of self-love.

00:19:53.400 But speaking of that, you write a lot about self-help in your book and that self-love,

00:19:59.860 self-help message, they're kind of inextricably intertwined.

00:20:03.140 And so talk about that when you realize that, okay, this self-help stuff that I have been

00:20:08.680 imbibing really isn't helping me as much as I thought it was.

00:20:13.200 Yeah.

00:20:13.860 I mean, the danger of it's in the name itself, self-help.

00:20:18.440 As Christians, we know we can't help ourselves.

00:20:22.120 We can't.

00:20:23.880 And so, first of all, we should discern the difference in our definition and say, we're

00:20:31.140 not talking about keeping up the normal things that we require to live on planet Earth.

00:20:40.320 You know, we need to eat.

00:20:42.180 We should brush our teeth.

00:20:43.720 We should keep up with hygiene.

00:20:45.220 We should do things that are good for self-care.

00:20:48.360 So let's not misdefine that for self-help because self-help...

00:20:53.080 And that's just stewardship, by the way.

00:20:54.760 That's just stewardship.

00:20:55.880 That's being responsible for the vessels that we are.

00:21:00.820 But when we get into self-help, there's a theology related to that.

00:21:06.820 It is a religion in every sense of the way.

00:21:09.920 There's doctrine.

00:21:11.100 There are apostles and prophets.

00:21:13.880 There are regimens and routines and sacraments that you do all associated with self-help.

00:21:19.800 And the heart of it is, I'm my own savior.

00:21:26.020 If no one else can do it, I could do it.

00:21:29.520 I'm going to save this.

00:21:31.140 I'm going to build this.

00:21:32.560 If I'm a king one day, it's because I did it.

00:21:35.440 If I'm in poverty, it's because I didn't do it.

00:21:37.680 But regardless, it's all about me.

00:21:40.000 It all comes from within me, manifesting the power within me to then go out and take the

00:21:46.160 world.

00:21:46.600 That is the heart of all of self-help.

00:21:48.920 And it is dangerous.

00:21:50.560 It's appealing.

00:21:51.440 It's attractive to the flesh.

00:21:53.060 And we should all be very, very cautious of it at all times.

00:21:56.360 Okay, y'all.

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00:23:04.260 Did you feel like it had led you to believe things about God that just weren't true?

00:23:10.060 And in the midst of your grief, did those things kind of like, I don't know, highlight themselves?

00:23:16.640 Did they kind of come to a head?

00:23:18.520 Yeah, for sure.

00:23:20.020 It came to a head.

00:23:21.120 And I am thankful that the Lord brings people to the absolute end of themselves.

00:23:29.440 And it happens throughout history and throughout Scripture itself.

00:23:35.100 We're brought down to the absolute end of ourselves so that we could know that we can only depend on Him.

00:23:42.140 And so self-help certainly teaches us that God is an add-on to our lives.

00:23:46.100 God is just an accessory. 0.76

00:23:48.080 God is something we say.

00:23:49.220 God, of course, created all things, and He created me so that I could be who I am,

00:23:55.260 and I need to build myself to the potential.

00:23:58.080 I've heard it put sometimes.

00:24:00.480 It's crazy now that if you think theologically about it, people will say things like,

00:24:05.680 one day God will show you, when you face Him, who you could have been if you tried a little bit harder.

00:24:12.540 Like, what is it?

00:24:14.060 That makes no sense.

00:24:15.360 It's like God's going to show you the nice version of yourself that you could have been

00:24:20.160 if you tried a little bit harder to conquer the world.

00:24:22.540 Yeah.

00:24:23.600 So it's an incredible enticement.

00:24:25.500 It reminds me of the original sin.

00:24:28.040 It takes me right back to the garden to think about,

00:24:30.600 you have control over this to be God yourselves, is the message of self-help.

00:24:36.840 So absolutely, it teaches the wrong message.

00:24:38.720 It cultivates cultural Christianity all the time. 0.97

00:24:41.920 Yes.

00:24:42.260 How did the loss of your son affect your marriage?

00:24:47.160 Well, it is only by God's grace that Amber and I tracked the same in this journey toward God.

00:25:01.600 And so that's not something I did or really that Amber did as far as look how great we were in being resilient and coming towards each other.

00:25:12.980 But we just did.

00:25:14.280 And I think the Lord was very kind and probably it probably wouldn't have been possible.

00:25:19.860 If Amber wasn't tracking with me, I don't know what would have happened, but I needed every bit of her encouragement.

00:25:28.320 Amber, and this is, it's just crazy, but I was the responsible adult when we lost Riv in her pool.

00:25:36.700 I was the one in the backyard with all the kids at the time.

00:25:39.200 And Amber was in the house and if she ever would have said in her, in her darkest moment, in her moment of weakness, if she ever would have said,

00:25:50.240 how dare you to have done this to our children?

00:25:55.380 If she ever would have just slipped in a moment of weakness, it might've crippled me.

00:26:00.720 It might've been too much, but she never, ever did that.

00:26:05.940 She always said, we're in this together.

00:26:08.400 We started this together.

00:26:09.660 We're in this together.

00:26:11.160 We're responsible for our kids together.

00:26:14.120 And there was, there was so powerful that, that she was able to do that.

00:26:20.760 And that's the grace of God too.

00:26:22.780 Yeah.

00:26:23.380 Wow.

00:26:23.780 Um, fast forward to when you made the decision to leave country music and you are taking, you took a leap of faith because this had been your provision.

00:26:36.180 This had been what provided for your family for all of these years.

00:26:41.120 As you said, this was your way of life.

00:26:42.940 In some ways, this was your identity.

00:26:44.880 You realized you couldn't reconcile denying yourself, taking up your cross with also, you know, wanting the accolades and fame,

00:26:52.200 which I think is something that everyone would struggle with.

00:26:55.940 Um, tell me about taking that step and trusting God just for providing for your family, who you would be, what you would do.

00:27:03.800 What did that look like?

00:27:04.640 First of all, not easy.

00:27:05.960 And it wasn't, I don't have some kind of superpower.

00:27:08.820 I just said, yeah, I'm just going to just quit all this.

00:27:11.120 It was a long time.

00:27:12.180 I keep a journal every morning and it's digital.

00:27:14.260 So I could look back on the last several years.

00:27:16.560 And so I watch as I kind of tracked through this, these thoughts.

00:27:20.460 And, you know, three years ago, I'm saying things like, I don't know how much longer I could do.

00:27:25.920 I could reconcile being a musician like this and glorify myself.

00:27:29.560 I don't know how I'm going to do this.

00:27:31.900 And so it was a long process and it just, that, that weight got heavier and heavier.

00:27:37.460 And, you know, we see in the book of Joshua, when the, when the Lord commanded the priest

00:27:47.360 carrying the ark to step into the water of the Jordan.

00:27:50.840 And when their feet were solely planted on the rock, he would stop the water.

00:27:56.980 We know we could look back and go, this is, it was harvest season.

00:27:59.760 That water was probably crazy.

00:28:02.040 And I can't imagine what that would have been like for this entire nation of Israel to go up 0.90

00:28:08.360 to the, to the, to that river and go, well, you're going to, you want us to step into that?

00:28:13.600 Lord, we want you to stop at first.

00:28:15.320 That's always our inclination.

00:28:16.380 Like, Lord, you, you move and then I'll move.

00:28:19.660 And he says, you move and then I'll move.

00:28:23.660 And I struggled with that.

00:28:25.040 I knew that that's what I needed to do.

00:28:26.480 I knew that there wasn't provision for my family, but I knew that if, if I'm being faithful

00:28:33.060 to what I saw in scripture, then, then the Lord's going to provide, I mean, he provides

00:28:39.180 to the, to the sparrows.

00:28:41.360 Why would he not, why am I not much more value than they?

00:28:45.100 So it's so crazy because when I did that, um, when I first said, I'm doing this and I

00:28:53.040 start, I'm going to announce the farewell tour.

00:28:54.680 I left the record label, which was crazy a year before that.

00:28:59.140 And then the Lord brought me a radio show within like eight days.

00:29:05.520 Uh, I got a call from a couple of people at, um, at a big conglomerate saying, Hey, will

00:29:11.660 you host a radio, an overnight radio show?

00:29:13.960 I'd never been in radio, had no experience in radio.

00:29:17.180 And I was instantly, I was like, there it is.

00:29:21.540 That's the Lord, you stopped the water.

00:29:24.000 So now I'll walk across this river and I'm not, I hesitate saying that story because that

00:29:30.640 not everyone is going to experience immediate, you know, answers to prayers like that.

00:29:35.540 Sometimes it's, sometimes the prayers are answered in different ways, but, um, I had to just

00:29:42.160 trust, Oh, am, am I not of much more value than sparrows?

00:29:47.020 Let me take the sleep.

00:29:48.820 I'm in sin.

00:29:49.840 I'm in sin.

00:29:50.500 So I need to get away from this sin.

00:29:52.620 And, um, so here we are today.

00:29:54.820 And, and I, and so recognizing that I do know at any moment I might get fired from this radio

00:30:00.660 job.

00:30:00.980 In fact, I know I will.

00:30:02.200 I will say something one day and I'll get fired from it.

00:30:06.580 I hope it's not today or tomorrow, but, but when I do, and I don't, and I don't, I don't

00:30:12.400 try to do that, but, um, as a Christian man working in a, in a secular industry, uh, it,

00:30:20.080 it's going to have a shelf life and, and then the Lord will provide.

00:30:24.060 Yeah.

00:30:24.200 And as someone who still has a public platform, how do you work through the struggles that

00:30:33.640 you had as a performer of, you know, wanting a certain number of people to be watching you,

00:30:39.280 to be there, to be supporting you?

00:30:41.280 Is that still something that you feel like you face that you have to resist when you have,

00:30:47.920 you know, a radio show, when a public platform on social media, et cetera?

00:30:51.860 That is a great question.

00:30:53.440 And something I need to be, I need to be thinking about all the time.

00:30:56.880 I need to be continually testing myself.

00:30:59.140 Yeah.

00:30:59.900 And so, um, I need to set up, I need to set up barriers around me and those barriers come

00:31:06.900 in the form of, uh, people, wise counsel.

00:31:10.940 Um, I'm so grateful for my church.

00:31:13.600 I, I'm, I'm a huge church guy and I, I just feel like we're in a society now where people

00:31:20.720 feel like as Christians, they could actually operate outside of a church and that that's

00:31:25.640 okay.

00:31:25.880 And that they find church in the woods or whatever they say.

00:31:28.960 And it's just not set up that way.

00:31:30.600 We were, we were, we have to be in community and we can't do this alone.

00:31:34.500 And so we need to have pastors, wise people around us where we say, Hey, you know, I struggle

00:31:41.700 with the temptation of needing people to praise me.

00:31:45.700 And I struggled with that in music.

00:31:47.800 And so my pastor goes, one thing I want to do for you is next year in 2025, I don't want

00:31:53.440 you preaching more than seven Sundays, the entire 2025 so that you could be with your family

00:32:00.340 in church.

00:32:00.980 And so that you could resist the need to feel like that's your new singing career.

00:32:06.540 It's like, okay, great.

00:32:08.440 So then in, in submission to my pastor, I say, okay, seven Sundays.

00:32:12.800 So we will not cross that, that that's one of the barriers.

00:32:16.320 Um, the radio show, I, I don't do interviews with other artists.

00:32:22.520 It's a country music overnight radio show.

00:32:24.380 I don't do interviews.

00:32:25.760 I feel like that might be a trigger for me if I'm hanging around too many country singers

00:32:30.320 and interviewing them.

00:32:31.700 And I also don't do like red carpets and things like, I try to stay away from that as much

00:32:37.420 as I can, cause that might be a trigger for me.

00:32:39.900 So when I'm just recording the show by myself, it's just me.

00:32:44.180 And I, I don't have anybody saying great job Granger, you know, no one's cheering me on

00:32:49.480 when I'm behind the mic by myself.

00:32:51.220 So, um, that's some of the things that I'm, that I want to always be doing to protect

00:32:57.660 myself from that, that, Hey, I went from a singer that needs praise to a preacher that

00:33:03.880 needs praise, which is worse.

00:33:06.900 Yeah.

00:33:07.520 And you know what?

00:33:08.420 That is true for anyone, no matter how big their platform is, because like you said, it

00:33:14.120 goes back to the garden of Eden.

00:33:15.840 You can be like God.

00:33:17.220 It wasn't necessarily an audience that was tempting her, but all of us desire to be adored,

00:33:24.540 praised, worshiped.

00:33:25.600 Yes.

00:33:25.900 And all of us need accountability against that.

00:33:28.180 All right.

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00:34:16.040 I do have one question.

00:34:21.580 I know we're kind of bouncing around a little bit, but after the tragedy with your son, I'm

00:34:26.780 just curious.

00:34:28.280 I know you mentioned just how the grace of God covered not just you and your wife individually,

00:34:33.960 but your marriage.

00:34:34.780 But I'm also curious how this affected you as a parent.

00:34:38.380 I think that my propensity would be toward paranoia, control, never wanting to loosen the

00:34:46.000 brains at all.

00:34:46.980 Like, no, you are never, you're never leaving this little circle, this proximity right here.

00:34:53.940 How did you trust God in parenting after that?

00:34:57.020 Yeah.

00:34:57.440 What you just said is a normal lean.

00:34:59.920 A lot of I've seen people do that.

00:35:01.340 Amber and I have met a lot of couples that have lost children now.

00:35:04.020 And we see that a lot.

00:35:05.200 People just like, well, we're never leaving the house.

00:35:07.880 And, you know, COVID hit and people are like, well, we're just going to live indoors forever.

00:35:12.060 Um, and so I think the, the most important, probably, probably the foundational answer to

00:35:21.620 a lot of those kinds of questions are my personal devotional time.

00:35:25.700 So, and the purpose of, to put it simply as I can, the purpose of my personal reading the

00:35:33.840 Bible time, working through it in some kind of systematic way, whether that's starting 0.99

00:35:41.000 in one book and reading forward, or it being part of a reading plan that's your, you have

00:35:46.220 multiple starting places.

00:35:47.780 Like I'm in the McShane plan right now, where it's four, I have four, typically four books

00:35:52.180 that I read every morning, but the purpose really is at the core of everything to know

00:35:58.420 who God is.

00:36:00.000 So the more we read his word, the more we're consuming it, the more we're delighting ourselves

00:36:05.920 in it, the more we know who he is.

00:36:09.240 The more we know who he is, the more we could trust him.

00:36:13.060 And trust is another word for having faith in him.

00:36:15.940 And the more we have faith in the one that we trust, which is the one that we know, then

00:36:21.500 the more we could go, it just kind of goes into all aspects of our life, including parenting.

00:36:28.800 And so I can go, Lord, I trust you.

00:36:32.040 I want to raise my kids the way you say I need to raise kids.

00:36:36.220 I want to love my wife the way you say I need to love my wife.

00:36:40.200 I want to protect my kids or prepare them the way you say I need to do it.

00:36:44.860 And if I'm outside of that, which would be a overly protective helicopter parent, if I'm

00:36:50.560 in that world, I need to reconcile myself back to what you say I need to be doing, Lord.

00:36:56.680 And so that's why I never, ever skip that personal morning cup of coffee before the family gets

00:37:04.700 up reading the Bible.

00:37:05.800 No matter what I'm doing, no matter where I am, I have to consume that to continue to,

00:37:12.960 so it trickles down into things, the dangers of raising kids, being too protective because

00:37:19.720 we lost one.

00:37:21.240 Yeah, definitely.

00:37:22.840 Man, that's really good.

00:37:24.460 And you don't really always think about the mooring effects of that personal devo time,

00:37:33.780 the anchoring effect of it.

00:37:36.180 Sometimes I have the propensity to think, well, I'm, yes, I'm, of course, this helps me grow

00:37:40.940 in sanctification and holiness and obedience.

00:37:43.340 I know that in an abstract sense.

00:37:45.640 It's also just helping me gain knowledge.

00:37:47.540 It's helping me prepare to have an answer for things.

00:37:50.260 All of those things are true, but you kind of just forget it's gravitational force, like

00:37:57.460 it's pulling you back in such practical ways to what is good, right, and true.

00:38:04.960 I don't know that I necessarily would have thought about my personal devotional time being the

00:38:11.120 antidote to either helicopter parenting, which is based on fear, or apathetic parenting, which

00:38:19.820 doesn't, you know, parent enough.

00:38:23.140 And so, yeah, that's really important.

00:38:25.420 It's a daily, it's a daily feast that we're taking, not just something we can do once a

00:38:32.000 month and hope for the best.

00:38:33.500 Yeah.

00:38:33.980 And once you finish reading the Bible, that's just the beginning.

00:38:38.060 It's a lifetime.

00:38:40.080 And so that sanctification is a lifetime journey.

00:38:42.160 So is our, our study of who he is, because it's interesting how many times we see in the

00:38:48.480 Bible, it says something about wisdom comes from the knowledge or, or our growth, our fruits

00:38:55.780 in the spirit come from the knowledge.

00:38:57.700 It's always the knowledge.

00:38:58.800 Jesus even said, Father, I've come so that they know you.

00:39:03.160 It's, it's always about knowing him.

00:39:05.140 And how do we know him?

00:39:06.240 It's not because he's writing letters in the sky.

00:39:09.820 It's not because a butterfly flies up or a red cardinal.

00:39:12.940 It's because he's revealed himself in his word, almost as if it is living and active,

00:39:18.240 sharper than any two-edged sword.

00:39:19.940 It's almost as if scripture itself is identifying itself as the way that we need to know our creator.

00:39:27.540 Yes.

00:39:27.880 And just a quick recommendation from you, if someone is like, okay, I want to start reading

00:39:34.920 my Bible or start reading my Bible again, I don't know where to start.

00:39:39.200 What did you do?

00:39:40.400 What would you recommend?

00:39:41.700 Well, I'd say, first of all, let me, let's start with what not to do.

00:39:48.200 If you were talking about Devo time, we're not talking about Bible study.

00:39:53.200 We're not talking about the sermon series you're in at church.

00:39:56.320 We're not talking about your small group that you're in.

00:39:59.020 And we're not talking about your personal, like, say, you want to learn more about suffering,

00:40:04.560 who God is through suffering.

00:40:05.920 That's a great thing to do.

00:40:07.500 But we're not talking about this in Devo time.

00:40:09.740 Devo time is the word is speaking to you.

00:40:13.880 So we have to really say that what your Devo time is not is picking and choosing verses

00:40:20.160 or topics or things to study.

00:40:22.500 Instead, let's start someplace and let's work forward.

00:40:26.320 And so then at the place to start, I don't know, John 1 is a good place.

00:40:30.580 Yeah.

00:40:30.820 Matthew 1 is a good place.

00:40:32.700 Romans 1 is a good place.

00:40:35.360 Genesis 1 is a good place.

00:40:37.200 So I don't think it...

00:40:42.080 I personally, when all this just became clear to me, I started Matthew 1.

00:40:47.040 I thought, well, that's the beginning of the New Testament, the birth of Christ.

00:40:50.080 Let's start there.

00:40:52.020 Let's work through the four Gospels, and then let's get into Acts, and then let's get into

00:40:55.240 Romans.

00:40:56.640 But if someone is already a Christian and they're happy with where they are in their walk, then 0.99

00:41:03.980 I would say let's get in a good reading plan that puts you in several places of the Bible,

00:41:09.860 where the starting place is like, the McShane plan, for instance, is one time through the

00:41:17.300 Old Testament in a year, twice through the Psalms, and twice through the New Testament.

00:41:21.920 And it's going to come up with about four different starting places, one chapter.

00:41:26.840 Okay.

00:41:27.600 So there's lots of plans like that out there.

00:41:29.500 There's so many plans.

00:41:30.500 And that's a good one.

00:41:31.420 What I just said is not the right one.

00:41:33.000 It's just a one.

00:41:33.880 It's a one.

00:41:34.660 Right, right.

00:41:35.520 I love starting with the book of John, but you're right, there are so many places to start.

00:41:39.500 I love a good study Bible, because I just have a million questions whenever I'm reading.

00:41:43.640 I love the ESV study Bible.

00:41:46.240 And it's okay to feel overwhelmed.

00:41:48.660 It's certainly okay not to know what every single verse means.

00:41:52.540 Even the foremost theologians and scholars cannot tell you what every single verse means.

00:41:59.320 And so it's okay to have those questions and to dig in.

00:42:01.980 That's right.

00:42:02.260 And maybe another thing to add is don't do too much.

00:42:05.120 Yeah.

00:42:05.320 Because if you're reading a study Bible and you're chasing footnotes, which you should,

00:42:10.380 it's going to take you a while.

00:42:11.980 It's so true. 0.84

00:42:12.480 So don't have the big goal in mind if I'm going to read the book of Matthew in five days.

00:42:17.140 Right.

00:42:17.560 Let's just go a few pages at a time.

00:42:20.160 Yes, so true.

00:42:25.480 All right.

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00:43:32.840 You have made some statements about in vitro fertilization publicly, which just another

00:43:39.700 controversial realm to wade into, as we know very well on this podcast.

00:43:45.440 You and Amber used IVF, correct?

00:43:48.140 And so can you talk about that and what your thoughts are surrounding it now?

00:43:51.920 Oh, man.

00:43:54.420 Yeah, what a journey it's been.

00:43:57.500 So I guess I'll try to say the quick story leading into that.

00:44:01.280 I am totally against any kind of surgical contraception.

00:44:12.680 I think the decisions to do those things that are irreversible are very careless, and that's

00:44:24.540 what we did.

00:44:25.000 Amber had her tubes tied after the birth of IVF, which was 2016. 0.54

00:44:32.280 And I look back on that now as if we just had an idea of when our family would start or

00:44:37.440 finish.

00:44:38.060 You know, it's kind of what we were saying.

00:44:40.600 And I get the argument of we're trying to be responsible and, you know, but I am against

00:44:47.240 surgical contraception in that way because it put us in a really tough spot.

00:44:52.160 After we lost Riv, I was overwhelmed with the feeling that I had more love to give.

00:45:02.680 And we knew that adoption is always an option.

00:45:09.480 It is right now.

00:45:11.100 That's always what I'm praying through.

00:45:13.060 Um, so that we'll put, we'll put that adoption talk aside that is very much alive and well

00:45:20.840 in our family.

00:45:21.660 But the, then the idea came, well, we can't have, we biologically cannot have another baby.

00:45:28.820 So I brought it up to Amber immediately.

00:45:31.680 She, she didn't like the idea.

00:45:33.100 It sounded like replacing a baby.

00:45:34.680 And she was very upset with that idea.

00:45:36.400 Um, I had a moment, uh, several months after that, when I had that first discussion with

00:45:43.380 Amber, I had a moment as I was riding with the kids in the car and my son Lincoln looks

00:45:49.200 out into this cornfield in central Texas where there's no trees.

00:45:52.760 And he was just staring out of the window and he just said something out of the blue.

00:45:55.520 He said, daddy, does God make some of the trees and man makes some of the trees?

00:46:02.180 And I answered quickly without thinking about it.

00:46:06.840 And then I said, nobody, God makes all the trees, but sometimes man needs to plant the

00:46:12.520 seed.

00:46:13.840 And I was so confused by how strange that sounded.

00:46:18.280 But days later, when we got back into the discussion, Amber told me that the doctor said

00:46:23.880 there is an option.

00:46:24.660 It's, it's IVF.

00:46:25.760 And we could have another baby, but it's, it's costly.

00:46:31.700 Uh, the, the odds are very low, especially her age, 39 years old.

00:46:35.440 And then she really struggled.

00:46:37.460 She said, but how, how could we reconcile playing God and, and planting a baby in my belly?

00:46:46.240 And I remember feeling overwhelmed with the, with that thought, God makes all the babies.

00:46:52.400 Sometimes man plants the seed.

00:46:53.980 And, and I felt, I felt a peace in that and a rest in that.

00:47:00.760 And then as we started the IVF process, um, we ran into an immediate problem.

00:47:07.140 It was, what do we do with these fertilized eggs? 0.89

00:47:12.060 Forgive me.

00:47:12.620 I don't know all the terminology, so I'm just going to speak, you know, layman's terms.

00:47:15.880 The embryos.

00:47:16.880 Yeah.

00:47:17.820 What do we do with this?

00:47:18.920 And as we were growing our faith, we were, we, we, we were very cultural, very nominal

00:47:25.200 coming out.

00:47:26.180 I was, I was reborn.

00:47:27.780 And so I was, I was studying as hard as I could, but, but still, even as much as I was studying,

00:47:33.040 I didn't, I couldn't really reconcile a lot, um, in, in those times.

00:47:38.560 What is, who is God?

00:47:39.840 You know, it's like back to the discussion of who is God?

00:47:41.740 What does God want from us?

00:47:44.260 And so we knew that this was, this was a problem.

00:47:47.140 This was a very apparent problem.

00:47:49.240 So we decided then.

00:47:50.220 That you had multiple embryos that she didn't have an intention to transfer.

00:47:54.200 Because the, the options were science, donate to science or destroy them basically, or save

00:48:00.280 them for, you know, who knows what.

00:48:02.340 Yeah.

00:48:02.640 So we decided then we'll just implant them all.

00:48:06.280 We'll implant all of them.

00:48:07.700 And so the way it turned out in our situation, all of them died, except two, two boys.

00:48:18.400 And we implanted the, once again, I'm sorry, the terminology, I don't think that's the right

00:48:23.980 transfer, transferred the, the most viable, statistically viable boy in Amber miscarried.

00:48:32.520 She became pregnant and then she miscarried.

00:48:34.620 There was one left.

00:48:35.700 And we transferred the last one and it took, and the pregnancy took.

00:48:41.140 And now Maverick is at home, he's three years old.

00:48:45.720 So it felt like with the, the idea of the trees and the man plants, and it felt like there was

00:48:53.980 peace in that.

00:48:54.780 And, and, and then I continued my journey and continued thinking through this and reading

00:49:04.620 and thinking about who God is.

00:49:06.880 And, and the more and more I ran into it that in so many times in life, what we could do is

00:49:13.960 we could, we could test things by just looking at the fruit of, of, of the system.

00:49:18.640 So if you're worried about a person, look at their fruits.

00:49:22.060 If you're worried about a university, look at the fruits.

00:49:25.360 If you're worried about any kind of system, look at the fruits.

00:49:28.200 And so I started looking at that clinic that we went to and what they're promoting on social

00:49:33.700 media, rotten fruit, all of it.

00:49:37.600 There was, there was nothing in it that was like, oh, that's, that's healthy.

00:49:43.220 That, that's, that's biblical.

00:49:45.560 All of it was opposite of it.

00:49:47.860 Rotten fruit coming on from this clinic.

00:49:49.820 As far as sexuality, marriage. 0.56

00:49:51.580 Everything.

00:49:52.300 What they're promoting through IVF was so that anybody could have a baby.

00:49:58.080 Not a, not a man and a woman, not a married man and woman. 0.95

00:50:01.260 And that's, that wasn't just that clinic.

00:50:03.700 And so that was like, oh, that doesn't feel, this doesn't feel right.

00:50:09.120 Reconciling these doesn't feel right.

00:50:11.300 And then the, the more and more I, and this is something I really, the Lord really did a

00:50:17.600 work in me because we have a, we have a boy at home, Maverick.

00:50:22.600 And, and the first thing that we, we know is that babies are never to blame.

00:50:28.020 And because a baby might come from sin, that does not mean the baby is sin or in sin at

00:50:35.480 all.

00:50:36.380 And we see that story repeated throughout history.

00:50:39.540 Babies are always right.

00:50:40.840 A baby that is here is always right.

00:50:42.860 A baby that's conceived is always right.

00:50:44.720 No matter how it was conceived, whether it's rape or IVF or whatever it might be, the baby

00:50:51.460 is never a mistake.

00:50:53.400 The baby's always right.

00:50:54.560 So put that aside, you know, like to take that information, there's Maverick, we love

00:50:59.720 them.

00:51:00.020 These are baby boys, put it on the shelf.

00:51:02.140 But then, then how do I move forward on a public platform and how do I speak to that?

00:51:11.020 And I'll tell you where I am today, as we sit here, I go, I would not do it.

00:51:17.680 I wouldn't touch it.

00:51:18.600 The fruits of it are rotten.

00:51:20.620 The, um, what we know from it now, there is, there is so much evil surrounding it, evil

00:51:30.000 coming out of it.

00:51:30.780 The ability to put, to put this kind of technology in evil hand, evil people's hands is too much

00:51:39.240 to bear.

00:51:40.000 And I would say, um, I would not recommend it.

00:51:42.780 I would say, stay away from it.

00:51:44.060 And I would say, let's, let's open our arms wide to adoption.

00:51:47.820 There's so many Christian parents who would and do make excellent parents who do not realize

00:51:57.380 before they go into IVF, the ethical quandary that they will be placed in.

00:52:04.220 Most just don't know.

00:52:05.800 They have the best of intentions.

00:52:07.000 They never have any intention to destroy any embryonic life.

00:52:11.940 They don't even realize that's going to be an option on the table.

00:52:14.840 Say they create five embryos.

00:52:17.620 Maybe they even have the intention to transfer all five at some point down the line, but then

00:52:24.460 something happens.

00:52:25.460 They get pregnant with the first.

00:52:27.080 It's a complicated birth.

00:52:28.280 They realize there's no way that they can transfer and implant the rest of their embryos.

00:52:33.120 What did they do?

00:52:34.140 I've talked to women like this.

00:52:35.980 They're Christians.

00:52:36.920 They say, I know these are babies made in the image of God in their earliest stages of life.

00:52:41.240 I don't want to adopt them out. 0.99

00:52:42.720 I don't want to destroy them.

00:52:43.720 I don't want to donate them to science and I don't want to freeze them indefinitely.

00:52:47.320 That is a really difficult position for a lot of people to be in.

00:52:52.040 And so, and people just don't realize it.

00:52:55.060 So it's not coming from a place of hatred or condemnation for me.

00:52:59.140 It's just a place of realization that these are babies made in the image of God.

00:53:04.300 Most people don't know very often the eugenics process, the destruction process that is inherent. 0.99

00:53:10.880 And then, as you said, the industry as a whole, everything that it promotes is so extremely problematic.

00:53:17.280 More than a million babies on ice right now.

00:53:20.420 So, yeah.

00:53:21.040 You know what's interesting too?

00:53:22.320 As I've kind of worked through this, I think you're absolutely right.

00:53:25.000 Everything you said.

00:53:26.280 And this is coming from an IVF family.

00:53:27.960 If there's a couple out there that have struggled with fertility, and first of all, I'm so sorry.

00:53:38.480 I can't imagine the struggle, the difficulty, the wrestling from a Christian family. 1.00

00:53:49.320 There is another way that's interesting, and this is kind of new to me.

00:53:52.980 I mean, you just kind of hinted at it, but there are millions of babies on ice right now.

00:53:57.520 Do you know that those are available for adoption as well?

00:54:01.500 And I'm just now learning this, but if we stopped IVF completely today, stopped it forever, there are still millions that can be adopted and transferred today into a mother.

00:54:15.760 That's a very interesting thought as well, and something that's not well known and not well talked about.

00:54:22.580 But it is interesting, and I am, as we stand today, I am against IVF.

00:54:30.900 Yes.

00:54:31.360 I think it's called snowflake adoption, and it is an option.

00:54:35.880 And, you know, as you mentioned, there are also so many babies, so many children in foster care.

00:54:42.240 And I say this as someone who hasn't yet adopted either, but it should be, I think, on the table for anyone who can, especially any Christian.

00:54:50.900 Yes.

00:54:51.100 Well, thank you so much for your vulnerability, your transparency, and I love what the Lord is doing through you and your family,

00:54:59.720 and just the testimony of redemption that He has written with your life, and even the tragedy that you and your family have been through.

00:55:08.140 How can people follow you, support you, encourage you, listen to you, read your book, all that good stuff?

00:55:13.680 Yeah, I think probably the best hub is GrangerSmith.com, and all social media, I'm just GrangerSmith.

00:55:19.180 GrangerSmith.

00:55:19.660 Okay, thank you so much, Granger.

00:55:21.260 I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.

00:55:23.180 Thank you for having me.

00:55:23.940 We'll be back for now!

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 29, 2024

Ep 1041 ｜ Granger Smith on Suicide, Self-Love & IVF ｜ Guest： Granger Smith

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