Ep 1041 ｜ Granger Smith on Suicide, Self-Love & IVF ｜ Guest： Granger Smith
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
164.57841
Summary
Granger Smith is a former country music singer. He left the industry a few years ago after God called him elsewhere, and God is using him and his family in absolutely incredible ways to share the testimony of redemption of his family. After tragedy struck a few a years ago, we talk not just about his own spiritual journey, but about marriage, parenting after losing a child, and what he thinks about IVF today.
Transcript
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He left the industry a few years ago after God called him elsewhere, and God is using
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him and his family in absolutely incredible ways to share the testimony of redemption
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of his family after tragedy struck a few years ago.
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We talk not just about his own spiritual journey, but about marriage, about parenting after
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We also talk about going through IVF and what he thinks about that reproductive technology
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This was an absolutely amazing and such an edifying conversation that you guys are going to love
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This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Granger, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
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I'm sure most watching this know exactly who you are, but for those who might not, can
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I guess first, I'm a former country music singer, and I've been saying that for 10 months now
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as we record this, and I was a country singer for most of my life, about 25 years, touring
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Can I just pause and say you do not look like you could have been doing something for 25 years?
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I saw that your first album came out in 1999, and I was like, a child star?
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I can't, I mean, you just don't look like you had already a 25-year career.
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And it has been, it has taken up, it's consumed most of my life, and so this is a new season
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It's been an amazing season, a sweet season for the family and I.
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A season of equipping, really, in ministry, I think that's probably the best way to look
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It's, I've just been, I'm trying to be poured into as much as I can in a lot of different
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And tell me a little more about that decision to leave country music.
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Like you said, it had dominated your life for a long time.
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Well, I think the catalyst, no doubt, is, is, was June 4th, 2019.
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And, and after that, um, my perspective was real, was really rocked.
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I was, I've, there's never been a time in my life I didn't consider myself a Christian.
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Um, and, and so I, I, there's a problem with that inherently to, to think that you're born
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And, and, and the reason I knew my upbringing, going to church, being able to articulate the
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gospel, um, being able to defend at some level, the faith was always a part of my life.
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But when, when this kind of tragedy struck losing our boy, I realized now, especially in hindsight,
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looking back, there were no fruits of a, of a salvific hope in Jesus, because I, I felt
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I w I found out, especially now looking back that I was, um, so into self-help and fixing
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myself that really that's, that's what I relied on.
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So the, this, I say all that because that was the beginning of the journey to where I am
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And, and, and that wasn't the reason I got out, but it was, it started turning the gears
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In fact, after about, about six months after losing Riv, um, I was at a complete place of
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rock bottom where I just didn't want to live anymore.
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And it was really through the, that dark night, um, that I began a new search, a search of
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who is Jesus really had, had I for so many years underestimated what he said.
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And it sounds, that sounds pretty simple that maybe when Jesus said things and when his apostles
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said things and when the prophets before him said things, maybe they really meant it at
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And I don't really think that it occurred to me that it had been that simple.
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That when he says things like, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself, take up
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Did he, did he mean anything less by that statement?
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And so I really started wrestling with those things and that really came to a head three
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months later after just an intense journey of listening to preachers and trying to find out
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And it was finally listening to a sermon on March 1st after that year.
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And I've listened to so many conversion stories or read so many conversion stories and they're
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No one really has the same verse, but for some reason, this one rocked me.
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The disciple asked Jesus, Lord, why is it that you manifest yourself to us, but not to the
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And I'm hearing this and thinking, great question.
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Like, have I underestimated him all these years?
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And he says, in a way that Jesus did so many times in some kind of reverse psychology, he
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says, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word and my father will love him and we will
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Overwhelmingly, I felt adopted, healed, restored.
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And yet, at the same time, with all of those emotions hitting me at once, I also knew that
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Jesus was identifying his followers as people that kept his word, and I didn't know his word.
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So at the same time, feeling and knowing I was restored, I also suddenly had an intense
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desire to know his word so that I could keep it.
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And I also realized that for all these years, I had listened to preachers and gone to church
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and done the things, and the Bible wasn't at the center of all of that.
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And so for the first time ever, I realized the Bible was something I needed to consume
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on my own, in my own time, daily, so that I could know all of his word, so that then I
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And that began a new journey of reading his word.
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As I read his word now, they're like, this is the timeline for me, getting to the whole
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country music question, so then the timeline continues, I find what I truly believe is
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a Matthew 13, 44 treasure, a hidden treasure in a field that a man found and covered up
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that in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field, and I'm trying
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to reconcile this, and I'm trying to reconcile, if anyone would come after me, let him take
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up his cross and follow me, let him deny himself, and I'm reconciling this with going on stage
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and receiving glory and needing attention and receiving praise, and I'm saying, it's
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okay, that stuff's okay, because I'm telling people the gospel on the stage, or I'm seeing
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an amazing grace, so it's all worth it, or is it?
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Because something was still, had me tied up a little bit on the inside, and I was thinking,
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okay, well, Romans 12, 2 said, I should test myself by discerning the will of God with
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my mind, by the renewal of my mind, so let me test myself on the stage, and I go up there
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after several times on the stage, and I would think, I'm going to totally test my heart,
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my position as I'm performing music, and I would think, why are those people in the front
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row not, why are they not raising their hand, what's wrong with them?
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Then I would think, why are those seats in the back not full?
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It was full last time we came, what's wrong with this town?
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And even at that, even recognizing that, I didn't immediately think, well, I'm going to quit it.
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But I just thought, there's something inherently wrong with all of this.
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Reconciling the idea that, well, God gave you a gift to sing, so you should use that platform
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And God's going, I get my glory how I get my glory.
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So I wrestled with this for a few years, and before I realized it wasn't a record label
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It wasn't a radio single, which I needed to give up, which I did.
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I needed to surrender music, performing, all of it.
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And so I actually, when I first thought of that, when I first knew, and I felt peace in
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just thinking that, admitting that to myself, I came to my wife and said, I'm leaving music.
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And it wasn't totally in a vacuum, because she knew I had been wrestling with it.
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And she said, no, you owe it to people to at least do a farewell tour so you could say
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I believe she was right to kind of ramp it down and tell everybody why I was doing this.
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And then August, I believe the 26th of last year was the final show.
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I kind of want to go back to, you said that you hit rock bottom after your son River died.
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I have a three-year-old as well as two other kids and I haven't been through that, but I
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can imagine, I think you've written it was a drowning accident.
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I can just, I can imagine just the absolute turmoil and feeling like, is there any reason
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Can you talk about that moment and why, how you decided to step toward truth, light, and
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Because a lot of people, even people who profess to be Christians, they would say, well, I'm
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And there's so much evil that goes on in this world.
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Yeah, I mean, that question, we could probably sit here for about seven hours and not fully
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come close to unpacking the problem of evil, what happens in a man's heart when he decides
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to go one way, when he could have gone the other.
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Um, when we, we also know that, that, that the heart of man plans his way, but the Lord
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And so I want to say, before I answer any of that, I want to say that the Lord saved me.
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And if I face him tomorrow or today, and he says, why, Granger, why did you choose me
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Only by your grace is, do, do I stand here through the sacrifice of your son, because I
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And only by the grace of your son, do I, do I have the ability to stand before God that
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And so when I look back on the dark day, there was, there was no reason why I was on the
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back of my tour bus with a gun deciding that I would just, the world would be better without
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And in that moment, only by the grace of God, I noticed something.
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And I noticed that I was not alone, but, but not in a, not in a profound angel sitting on my
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I noticed that there was something else, another presence that was speaking to me through my
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That's kind of the, this is, it's a hard thing to describe, and I think that's the best
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It was a voice that, that said, this is the way, this is the way to rest.
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And so looking back now, it was only by the grace of God, I, I, there was a certain amount
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of discernment that suddenly I realized that's not me thinking these things.
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There's, there's an, there's something else influencing me right now.
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And how long have I left this door open for this, for this enemy that has now surrounded
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me, outnumbered me, and is about to take me out.
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And then it was at that point when I, at, at, at rock bottom with nothing else, I had
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no weapons to defend myself against this enemy.
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That's when I said, Lord Jesus, please, God, please save me.
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And then the, that voice stopped and I felt just enough peace to drop that gun.
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And I slid down to the floor and, and, and cried myself to sleep.
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You have a video on your Instagram, which I thought was really powerful, where you say
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that suicide is actually the ultimate act of self-love.
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Now, some people hearing that out there, they're like, what in the world are you talking about?
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I 100% agree with you, have said the, a very similar thing that it is for love of flesh and
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for comfort that someone would take their own life because it is escaping the pain.
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Cause some people have never heard that message.
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And a lot of people really disagree with me on that.
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Look, I'm not really, I'm not really in the business of, uh, giving soft ideas.
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I think I'm going to say some things that are dangerous.
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Um, and, and I'm certainly not always right about things, but I feel from my own, I've
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And every time I go up against it, I, and, and I'm, I'm looking at it with the lens of
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what scripture tells us, then, then suicide is the pinnacle of self-love.
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And like you said, people immediately knee-jerk and go, no, it's not, it's self-hate.
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Self-hate and self-love are actually very closely related.
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It takes a very similar emotion for that because the opposite of both of those things is indifference.
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And indifference and no one is indifferent to themselves.
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We always are paying close attention to ourselves and satisfying our flesh constantly.
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And so the ultimate form of that is saying, you know what?
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I'm going to end this because that gives me rest.
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That gives me peace to this flesh that is screaming out.
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But even if you, even with self-hate, the pinnacle of it is saying, I'm going to end it.
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Regardless of what family thinks, our friends or anyone else around me, I'm doing this for me.
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And the people instantly, their, their, their immediate reaction is no, suicide is not for
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It is so that you're relieving other people of your burden.
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And I say, well, let's really think about that.
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I know that sounds nicer and that, that sounds sweeter.
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That's, that's a softer blow to say, no, the suicide's for others to help them not have
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I think we should really think about where the heart of suicide is.
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While self-love has been, I think, almost adopted by some well-meaning Christians as the 11th
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commandment or as implicit within Jesus's commandment to love others as we love ourselves.
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And I say, no, that's not a command to love ourselves.
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What he is saying is you naturally love yourself.
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And as you so naturally, instinctively seek to meet your own needs, seek to meet the needs
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We don't need instruction or encouragement to love ourselves.
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In fact, when we read that word self-love in the New Testament, it's talking about the
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evil of the end times that they will be lovers of self.
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And it's controversial to say, but the truth is, is that we don't need self-love to treat
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ourselves well or to treat others well, is that we are compelled by the love of Christ.
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It waxes and wanes, but Christ's love stays the same.
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It's actually much better news than the gospel of self-love.
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But speaking of that, you write a lot about self-help in your book and that self-love,
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self-help message, they're kind of inextricably intertwined.
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And so talk about that when you realize that, okay, this self-help stuff that I have been
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imbibing really isn't helping me as much as I thought it was.
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I mean, the danger of it's in the name itself, self-help.
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As Christians, we know we can't help ourselves.
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And so, first of all, we should discern the difference in our definition and say, we're
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not talking about keeping up the normal things that we require to live on planet Earth.
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We should do things that are good for self-care.
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So let's not misdefine that for self-help because self-help...
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That's being responsible for the vessels that we are.
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But when we get into self-help, there's a theology related to that.
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There are regimens and routines and sacraments that you do all associated with self-help.
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If I'm in poverty, it's because I didn't do it.
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It all comes from within me, manifesting the power within me to then go out and take the
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And we should all be very, very cautious of it at all times.
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Did you feel like it had led you to believe things about God that just weren't true?
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And in the midst of your grief, did those things kind of like, I don't know, highlight themselves?
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And I am thankful that the Lord brings people to the absolute end of themselves.
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And it happens throughout history and throughout Scripture itself.
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We're brought down to the absolute end of ourselves so that we could know that we can only depend on Him.
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And so self-help certainly teaches us that God is an add-on to our lives.
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God, of course, created all things, and He created me so that I could be who I am,
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It's crazy now that if you think theologically about it, people will say things like,
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one day God will show you, when you face Him, who you could have been if you tried a little bit harder.
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It's like God's going to show you the nice version of yourself that you could have been
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if you tried a little bit harder to conquer the world.
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It takes me right back to the garden to think about,
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you have control over this to be God yourselves, is the message of self-help.
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It cultivates cultural Christianity all the time.
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How did the loss of your son affect your marriage?
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Well, it is only by God's grace that Amber and I tracked the same in this journey toward God.
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And so that's not something I did or really that Amber did as far as look how great we were in being resilient and coming towards each other.
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And I think the Lord was very kind and probably it probably wouldn't have been possible.
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If Amber wasn't tracking with me, I don't know what would have happened, but I needed every bit of her encouragement.
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Amber, and this is, it's just crazy, but I was the responsible adult when we lost Riv in her pool.
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I was the one in the backyard with all the kids at the time.
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And Amber was in the house and if she ever would have said in her, in her darkest moment, in her moment of weakness, if she ever would have said,
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how dare you to have done this to our children?
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If she ever would have just slipped in a moment of weakness, it might've crippled me.
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It might've been too much, but she never, ever did that.
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And there was, there was so powerful that, that she was able to do that.
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Um, fast forward to when you made the decision to leave country music and you are taking, you took a leap of faith because this had been your provision.
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This had been what provided for your family for all of these years.
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You realized you couldn't reconcile denying yourself, taking up your cross with also, you know, wanting the accolades and fame,
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which I think is something that everyone would struggle with.
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Um, tell me about taking that step and trusting God just for providing for your family, who you would be, what you would do.
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And it wasn't, I don't have some kind of superpower.
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I just said, yeah, I'm just going to just quit all this.
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I keep a journal every morning and it's digital.
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So I could look back on the last several years.
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And so I watch as I kind of tracked through this, these thoughts.
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And, you know, three years ago, I'm saying things like, I don't know how much longer I could do.
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I could reconcile being a musician like this and glorify myself.
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And so it was a long process and it just, that, that weight got heavier and heavier.
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And, you know, we see in the book of Joshua, when the, when the Lord commanded the priest
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carrying the ark to step into the water of the Jordan.
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And when their feet were solely planted on the rock, he would stop the water.
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We know we could look back and go, this is, it was harvest season.
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And I can't imagine what that would have been like for this entire nation of Israel to go up
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to the, to the, to that river and go, well, you're going to, you want us to step into that?
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I knew that there wasn't provision for my family, but I knew that if, if I'm being faithful
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to what I saw in scripture, then, then the Lord's going to provide, I mean, he provides
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Why would he not, why am I not much more value than they?
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So it's so crazy because when I did that, um, when I first said, I'm doing this and I
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start, I'm going to announce the farewell tour.
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I left the record label, which was crazy a year before that.
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And then the Lord brought me a radio show within like eight days.
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Uh, I got a call from a couple of people at, um, at a big conglomerate saying, Hey, will
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I'd never been in radio, had no experience in radio.
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So now I'll walk across this river and I'm not, I hesitate saying that story because that
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not everyone is going to experience immediate, you know, answers to prayers like that.
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Sometimes it's, sometimes the prayers are answered in different ways, but, um, I had to just
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trust, Oh, am, am I not of much more value than sparrows?
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And, and I, and so recognizing that I do know at any moment I might get fired from this radio
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I will say something one day and I'll get fired from it.
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I hope it's not today or tomorrow, but, but when I do, and I don't, and I don't, I don't
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try to do that, but, um, as a Christian man working in a, in a secular industry, uh, it,
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it's going to have a shelf life and, and then the Lord will provide.
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And as someone who still has a public platform, how do you work through the struggles that
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you had as a performer of, you know, wanting a certain number of people to be watching you,
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Is that still something that you feel like you face that you have to resist when you have,
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you know, a radio show, when a public platform on social media, et cetera?
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And something I need to be, I need to be thinking about all the time.
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And so, um, I need to set up, I need to set up barriers around me and those barriers come
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I, I'm, I'm a huge church guy and I, I just feel like we're in a society now where people
00:31:20.720
feel like as Christians, they could actually operate outside of a church and that that's
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And that they find church in the woods or whatever they say.
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We were, we were, we have to be in community and we can't do this alone.
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And so we need to have pastors, wise people around us where we say, Hey, you know, I struggle
00:31:41.700
with the temptation of needing people to praise me.
00:31:47.800
And so my pastor goes, one thing I want to do for you is next year in 2025, I don't want
00:31:53.440
you preaching more than seven Sundays, the entire 2025 so that you could be with your family
00:32:00.980
And so that you could resist the need to feel like that's your new singing career.
00:32:08.440
So then in, in submission to my pastor, I say, okay, seven Sundays.
00:32:12.800
So we will not cross that, that that's one of the barriers.
00:32:16.320
Um, the radio show, I, I don't do interviews with other artists.
00:32:25.760
I feel like that might be a trigger for me if I'm hanging around too many country singers
00:32:31.700
And I also don't do like red carpets and things like, I try to stay away from that as much
00:32:37.420
as I can, cause that might be a trigger for me.
00:32:39.900
So when I'm just recording the show by myself, it's just me.
00:32:44.180
And I, I don't have anybody saying great job Granger, you know, no one's cheering me on
00:32:51.220
So, um, that's some of the things that I'm, that I want to always be doing to protect
00:32:57.660
myself from that, that, Hey, I went from a singer that needs praise to a preacher that
00:33:08.420
That is true for anyone, no matter how big their platform is, because like you said, it
00:33:17.220
It wasn't necessarily an audience that was tempting her, but all of us desire to be adored,
00:33:25.900
And all of us need accountability against that.
00:33:33.000
I don't have to tell y'all that the world is crazy.
00:33:36.540
Things feel really unstable, but you want to make sure your savings are stable and secure.
00:33:41.020
And that's why you got to talk to my friends at Birch Gold.
00:33:44.700
Gold is a way to hedge against inflation and all of the economic turbulence that we are facing.
00:33:50.460
If you want to see about possibly converting an IRA or 401k into gold, you got to talk to
00:34:06.440
And when you do, they will send you a free, no obligation information kit, just so you can
00:34:21.580
I know we're kind of bouncing around a little bit, but after the tragedy with your son, I'm
00:34:28.280
I know you mentioned just how the grace of God covered not just you and your wife individually,
00:34:34.780
But I'm also curious how this affected you as a parent.
00:34:38.380
I think that my propensity would be toward paranoia, control, never wanting to loosen the
00:34:46.980
Like, no, you are never, you're never leaving this little circle, this proximity right here.
00:35:01.340
Amber and I have met a lot of couples that have lost children now.
00:35:05.200
People just like, well, we're never leaving the house.
00:35:07.880
And, you know, COVID hit and people are like, well, we're just going to live indoors forever.
00:35:12.060
Um, and so I think the, the most important, probably, probably the foundational answer to
00:35:21.620
a lot of those kinds of questions are my personal devotional time.
00:35:25.700
So, and the purpose of, to put it simply as I can, the purpose of my personal reading the
00:35:33.840
Bible time, working through it in some kind of systematic way, whether that's starting
00:35:41.000
in one book and reading forward, or it being part of a reading plan that's your, you have
00:35:47.780
Like I'm in the McShane plan right now, where it's four, I have four, typically four books
00:35:52.180
that I read every morning, but the purpose really is at the core of everything to know
00:36:00.000
So the more we read his word, the more we're consuming it, the more we're delighting ourselves
00:36:09.240
The more we know who he is, the more we could trust him.
00:36:13.060
And trust is another word for having faith in him.
00:36:15.940
And the more we have faith in the one that we trust, which is the one that we know, then
00:36:21.500
the more we could go, it just kind of goes into all aspects of our life, including parenting.
00:36:32.040
I want to raise my kids the way you say I need to raise kids.
00:36:36.220
I want to love my wife the way you say I need to love my wife.
00:36:40.200
I want to protect my kids or prepare them the way you say I need to do it.
00:36:44.860
And if I'm outside of that, which would be a overly protective helicopter parent, if I'm
00:36:50.560
in that world, I need to reconcile myself back to what you say I need to be doing, Lord.
00:36:56.680
And so that's why I never, ever skip that personal morning cup of coffee before the family gets
00:37:05.800
No matter what I'm doing, no matter where I am, I have to consume that to continue to,
00:37:12.960
so it trickles down into things, the dangers of raising kids, being too protective because
00:37:24.460
And you don't really always think about the mooring effects of that personal devo time,
00:37:36.180
Sometimes I have the propensity to think, well, I'm, yes, I'm, of course, this helps me grow
00:37:47.540
It's helping me prepare to have an answer for things.
00:37:50.260
All of those things are true, but you kind of just forget it's gravitational force, like
00:37:57.460
it's pulling you back in such practical ways to what is good, right, and true.
00:38:04.960
I don't know that I necessarily would have thought about my personal devotional time being the
00:38:11.120
antidote to either helicopter parenting, which is based on fear, or apathetic parenting, which
00:38:25.420
It's a daily, it's a daily feast that we're taking, not just something we can do once a
00:38:33.980
And once you finish reading the Bible, that's just the beginning.
00:38:40.080
And so that sanctification is a lifetime journey.
00:38:42.160
So is our, our study of who he is, because it's interesting how many times we see in the
00:38:48.480
Bible, it says something about wisdom comes from the knowledge or, or our growth, our fruits
00:38:58.800
Jesus even said, Father, I've come so that they know you.
00:39:06.240
It's not because he's writing letters in the sky.
00:39:09.820
It's not because a butterfly flies up or a red cardinal.
00:39:12.940
It's because he's revealed himself in his word, almost as if it is living and active,
00:39:19.940
It's almost as if scripture itself is identifying itself as the way that we need to know our creator.
00:39:27.880
And just a quick recommendation from you, if someone is like, okay, I want to start reading
00:39:34.920
my Bible or start reading my Bible again, I don't know where to start.
00:39:41.700
Well, I'd say, first of all, let me, let's start with what not to do.
00:39:48.200
If you were talking about Devo time, we're not talking about Bible study.
00:39:53.200
We're not talking about the sermon series you're in at church.
00:39:56.320
We're not talking about your small group that you're in.
00:39:59.020
And we're not talking about your personal, like, say, you want to learn more about suffering,
00:40:13.880
So we have to really say that what your Devo time is not is picking and choosing verses
00:40:22.500
Instead, let's start someplace and let's work forward.
00:40:26.320
And so then at the place to start, I don't know, John 1 is a good place.
00:40:42.080
I personally, when all this just became clear to me, I started Matthew 1.
00:40:47.040
I thought, well, that's the beginning of the New Testament, the birth of Christ.
00:40:52.020
Let's work through the four Gospels, and then let's get into Acts, and then let's get into
00:40:56.640
But if someone is already a Christian and they're happy with where they are in their walk, then
00:41:03.980
I would say let's get in a good reading plan that puts you in several places of the Bible,
00:41:09.860
where the starting place is like, the McShane plan, for instance, is one time through the
00:41:17.300
Old Testament in a year, twice through the Psalms, and twice through the New Testament.
00:41:21.920
And it's going to come up with about four different starting places, one chapter.
00:41:35.520
I love starting with the book of John, but you're right, there are so many places to start.
00:41:39.500
I love a good study Bible, because I just have a million questions whenever I'm reading.
00:41:48.660
It's certainly okay not to know what every single verse means.
00:41:52.540
Even the foremost theologians and scholars cannot tell you what every single verse means.
00:41:59.320
And so it's okay to have those questions and to dig in.
00:42:02.260
And maybe another thing to add is don't do too much.
00:42:05.320
Because if you're reading a study Bible and you're chasing footnotes, which you should,
00:42:12.480
So don't have the big goal in mind if I'm going to read the book of Matthew in five days.
00:42:29.000
So we've seen a lot of drug shortages over the past few years, but especially in this year,
00:42:36.340
If you are trying to get, say, antibiotics for an infection, or if you're trying to get
00:42:40.620
a daily prescription that you or one of your children relies on and you can't get it, I
00:42:49.240
And with it being an election season, we have no idea what's going to happen.
00:42:53.340
And it would be better to be safe than sorry when it comes to medication.
00:42:59.820
You can get their Jace case, which comes with life-saving antibiotics for the most common
00:43:05.500
You can add on things like an EpiPen or Ivermectin.
00:43:09.120
You could also get their Jace daily case, which is a year-long supply of the prescriptions
00:43:16.940
You just go to jacemedical.com that take you through a confidential telemedicine process.
00:43:21.320
You can use code Allie, you'll get a discount on the whole thing, and then you'll be set.
00:43:32.840
You have made some statements about in vitro fertilization publicly, which just another
00:43:39.700
controversial realm to wade into, as we know very well on this podcast.
00:43:48.140
And so can you talk about that and what your thoughts are surrounding it now?
00:43:57.500
So I guess I'll try to say the quick story leading into that.
00:44:01.280
I am totally against any kind of surgical contraception.
00:44:12.680
I think the decisions to do those things that are irreversible are very careless, and that's
00:44:25.000
Amber had her tubes tied after the birth of IVF, which was 2016.
00:44:32.280
And I look back on that now as if we just had an idea of when our family would start or
00:44:40.600
And I get the argument of we're trying to be responsible and, you know, but I am against
00:44:47.240
surgical contraception in that way because it put us in a really tough spot.
00:44:52.160
After we lost Riv, I was overwhelmed with the feeling that I had more love to give.
00:45:13.060
Um, so that we'll put, we'll put that adoption talk aside that is very much alive and well
00:45:21.660
But the, then the idea came, well, we can't have, we biologically cannot have another baby.
00:45:36.400
Um, I had a moment, uh, several months after that, when I had that first discussion with
00:45:43.380
Amber, I had a moment as I was riding with the kids in the car and my son Lincoln looks
00:45:49.200
out into this cornfield in central Texas where there's no trees.
00:45:52.760
And he was just staring out of the window and he just said something out of the blue.
00:45:55.520
He said, daddy, does God make some of the trees and man makes some of the trees?
00:46:02.180
And I answered quickly without thinking about it.
00:46:06.840
And then I said, nobody, God makes all the trees, but sometimes man needs to plant the
00:46:13.840
And I was so confused by how strange that sounded.
00:46:18.280
But days later, when we got back into the discussion, Amber told me that the doctor said
00:46:25.760
And we could have another baby, but it's, it's costly.
00:46:31.700
Uh, the, the odds are very low, especially her age, 39 years old.
00:46:37.460
She said, but how, how could we reconcile playing God and, and planting a baby in my belly?
00:46:46.240
And I remember feeling overwhelmed with the, with that thought, God makes all the babies.
00:46:53.980
And, and I felt, I felt a peace in that and a rest in that.
00:47:00.760
And then as we started the IVF process, um, we ran into an immediate problem.
00:47:07.140
It was, what do we do with these fertilized eggs?
00:47:12.620
I don't know all the terminology, so I'm just going to speak, you know, layman's terms.
00:47:18.920
And as we were growing our faith, we were, we, we, we were very cultural, very nominal
00:47:27.780
And so I was, I was studying as hard as I could, but, but still, even as much as I was studying,
00:47:33.040
I didn't, I couldn't really reconcile a lot, um, in, in those times.
00:47:39.840
You know, it's like back to the discussion of who is God?
00:47:44.260
And so we knew that this was, this was a problem.
00:47:50.220
That you had multiple embryos that she didn't have an intention to transfer.
00:47:54.200
Because the, the options were science, donate to science or destroy them basically, or save
00:48:02.640
So we decided then we'll just implant them all.
00:48:07.700
And so the way it turned out in our situation, all of them died, except two, two boys.
00:48:18.400
And we implanted the, once again, I'm sorry, the terminology, I don't think that's the right
00:48:23.980
transfer, transferred the, the most viable, statistically viable boy in Amber miscarried.
00:48:35.700
And we transferred the last one and it took, and the pregnancy took.
00:48:41.140
And now Maverick is at home, he's three years old.
00:48:45.720
So it felt like with the, the idea of the trees and the man plants, and it felt like there was
00:48:54.780
And, and, and then I continued my journey and continued thinking through this and reading
00:49:06.880
And, and the more and more I ran into it that in so many times in life, what we could do is
00:49:13.960
we could, we could test things by just looking at the fruit of, of, of the system.
00:49:18.640
So if you're worried about a person, look at their fruits.
00:49:22.060
If you're worried about a university, look at the fruits.
00:49:25.360
If you're worried about any kind of system, look at the fruits.
00:49:28.200
And so I started looking at that clinic that we went to and what they're promoting on social
00:49:37.600
There was, there was nothing in it that was like, oh, that's, that's healthy.
00:49:52.300
What they're promoting through IVF was so that anybody could have a baby.
00:49:58.080
Not a, not a man and a woman, not a married man and woman.
00:50:03.700
And so that was like, oh, that doesn't feel, this doesn't feel right.
00:50:11.300
And then the, the more and more I, and this is something I really, the Lord really did a
00:50:17.600
work in me because we have a, we have a boy at home, Maverick.
00:50:22.600
And, and the first thing that we, we know is that babies are never to blame.
00:50:28.020
And because a baby might come from sin, that does not mean the baby is sin or in sin at
00:50:36.380
And we see that story repeated throughout history.
00:50:44.720
No matter how it was conceived, whether it's rape or IVF or whatever it might be, the baby
00:50:54.560
So put that aside, you know, like to take that information, there's Maverick, we love
00:51:02.140
But then, then how do I move forward on a public platform and how do I speak to that?
00:51:11.020
And I'll tell you where I am today, as we sit here, I go, I would not do it.
00:51:20.620
The, um, what we know from it now, there is, there is so much evil surrounding it, evil
00:51:30.780
The ability to put, to put this kind of technology in evil hand, evil people's hands is too much
00:51:44.060
And I would say, let's, let's open our arms wide to adoption.
00:51:47.820
There's so many Christian parents who would and do make excellent parents who do not realize
00:51:57.380
before they go into IVF, the ethical quandary that they will be placed in.
00:52:07.000
They never have any intention to destroy any embryonic life.
00:52:11.940
They don't even realize that's going to be an option on the table.
00:52:17.620
Maybe they even have the intention to transfer all five at some point down the line, but then
00:52:28.280
They realize there's no way that they can transfer and implant the rest of their embryos.
00:52:36.920
They say, I know these are babies made in the image of God in their earliest stages of life.
00:52:43.720
I don't want to donate them to science and I don't want to freeze them indefinitely.
00:52:47.320
That is a really difficult position for a lot of people to be in.
00:52:55.060
So it's not coming from a place of hatred or condemnation for me.
00:52:59.140
It's just a place of realization that these are babies made in the image of God.
00:53:04.300
Most people don't know very often the eugenics process, the destruction process that is inherent.
00:53:10.880
And then, as you said, the industry as a whole, everything that it promotes is so extremely problematic.
00:53:22.320
As I've kind of worked through this, I think you're absolutely right.
00:53:27.960
If there's a couple out there that have struggled with fertility, and first of all, I'm so sorry.
00:53:38.480
I can't imagine the struggle, the difficulty, the wrestling from a Christian family.
00:53:49.320
There is another way that's interesting, and this is kind of new to me.
00:53:52.980
I mean, you just kind of hinted at it, but there are millions of babies on ice right now.
00:53:57.520
Do you know that those are available for adoption as well?
00:54:01.500
And I'm just now learning this, but if we stopped IVF completely today, stopped it forever, there are still millions that can be adopted and transferred today into a mother.
00:54:15.760
That's a very interesting thought as well, and something that's not well known and not well talked about.
00:54:22.580
But it is interesting, and I am, as we stand today, I am against IVF.
00:54:31.360
I think it's called snowflake adoption, and it is an option.
00:54:35.880
And, you know, as you mentioned, there are also so many babies, so many children in foster care.
00:54:42.240
And I say this as someone who hasn't yet adopted either, but it should be, I think, on the table for anyone who can, especially any Christian.
00:54:51.100
Well, thank you so much for your vulnerability, your transparency, and I love what the Lord is doing through you and your family,
00:54:59.720
and just the testimony of redemption that He has written with your life, and even the tragedy that you and your family have been through.
00:55:08.140
How can people follow you, support you, encourage you, listen to you, read your book, all that good stuff?
00:55:13.680
Yeah, I think probably the best hub is GrangerSmith.com, and all social media, I'm just GrangerSmith.
00:55:21.260
I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.