Ep 1058 ｜ Ex-Witch Reveals LA’s Dark World of Sex Cults and Blood Offerings ｜ Guest： Jac Marino Chen
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 5 minutes
Words per Minute
171.58972
Summary
Jack Marino Chen came out of the occult and met Christ. Her testimony from the time she was a child and feeling like she was connected to these transcendent entities that she thought were aliens into the New Age and then into the occult, and then out of that very dark world and into the light of the gospel. You are going to be so encouraged by the details of her story and just reminded of the power of Jesus to save us from absolutely anything. You are never too far gone.
Transcript
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Jack Marino Chen came out of the occult and met Christ and her testimony from the time
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she was a child and feeling like she was connected to these transcendent entities that she thought
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were aliens into the new age and then into the occult and then out of that very dark
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You are going to be so encouraged by the details of her story and just reminded of the power
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And Jack's testimony is such a good example of that powerful truth.
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Today's episode of Relatable is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Well, my name is Jack and I grew up thinking I was a Christian, was sexually abused as a
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That left me very confused in a lot of ways and suppressing that.
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And then I had a supernatural experience with what I originally thought were angels, but then
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later learned about aliens and really grasped onto that as an identity and found an escape
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from stuffing down the abuse in these supernatural experiences.
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And then that led to escaping myself through alcohol, drugs, self-harm.
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And I ended up getting in very unhealthy relationships, abusive relationships, and was introduced more
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In high school, I read the book The Secret, which opened my eyes to the law of attraction.
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And it was very, an exciting thought that I could control my reality.
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And another bad relationship led me deeper into the new age until when that crumbled down
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And I started being influenced by these entities, believing that I was led.
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One thing led to another, led to another, until I joined in a cult order called the Golden Dawn,
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where we practiced ritual magic in a Freemason Lodge.
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And it was there that Jesus Christ met me in that darkness and saved me.
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And I've been sober now for coming up, or seven years, actually.
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And it's been amazing that I never thought that I would smile or laugh again in the deep
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You said that you thought that you were a Christian when you were growing up.
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And so what was the religious belief of your parents?
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Well, we thought, I thought that we were Christians kind of like, you're American, you're just born
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I don't remember hearing the gospel, but then again, I was very young.
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And my idea of Jesus was someone that you imagine when you're afraid.
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So I really didn't understand what it meant to be a Christian,
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And the sexual abuse happened at a very young age.
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And I really stuffed it down and didn't want anyone to find out about it.
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My earliest memories are of the abuse, but for sure, when I was five, it can be.
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But when you're five years old, you don't even have the words, the mentality to wrap
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And of course, you don't have the power to defend yourself either.
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And when I was around seven, the person who abused me was caught abusing a toddler and
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And I just told myself, if I never think about this again, I can just believe my lie that
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I was so afraid of being caught or it being found out.
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I didn't have the mental wherewithal really to understand what had happened.
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I just totally denied it, said nothing ever happened, and really thought if I believed
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that enough, I could create my own reality, you know, the Disney fairy tale kind of, I
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can make my dreams come true, and if I believe this, I can make that happen.
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And it was around that same age of seven that I first had that supernatural experience, just
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seeing lights in the sky that felt very, not just like lights, but these familiar, personal,
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And my only way of understanding that was, oh, they must be angels.
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Angels, but then to learn about aliens, I think I really latched onto that because I
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believe that they saw me, they knew me, they accepted me, and they knew what had happened
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And it was just one moment where you were outside and you looked up and you saw these
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You thought, these are angels communicating with me, letting me know that I'm okay and
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I was looking out over a canyon and it was just, it's kind of hard to put in where
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words, but it felt so powerful, like the most powerful thing I'd experienced.
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And I really, I truly made that my identity because it was so exciting for me and I felt
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And so I held on to that experience and ones that I continued having that were similar than
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this fascination with aliens throughout my life.
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So you said that you were seven at this time and that became your identity and that then
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So tell me what that looked like at such a young age.
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I really started enjoying kind of being different and I started feeling like I was more influenced
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towards the more devious things, things that I knew were wrong.
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There was a lot of confusion that comes with childhood sexual abuse.
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I gravitated towards friends who I later learned were also being abused in many cases, but I
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started teaching my friends and they'd teach me what was happening with them sexually.
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And so there was just so much guilt and shame and anger and things stuck, pushed down that these
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escapes, these powerful moments of experience as that child gave me something to hope in, to look
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And that very small amount that I knew about Christianity, I started giving away to embrace
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a worldview that had a place for these beings who were, I was special to them is what I received
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And that meant something so much to me in a world where I felt like no one really knew
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And you had access to the internet at this point.
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Were you using the internet to try to figure out what these powers were in your life?
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I didn't really get access to the internet until later on.
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Really, it was reading things or hearing other people talk about UFOs or gray aliens.
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That would kind of give me the little bit here and there that I latched onto with those
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And when did you learn about aliens and how did you come to feel that these lights that
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you had interacted with or that you felt like you interacted with were aliens, at least
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I, it was a family member who was also very influenced with the UFO idea that I was very
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Like something clicked that the whole angel thing was just a vague idea.
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The only context that I had for it, but the idea of aliens visiting and there's this mystery
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behind it and it's alluring and exciting, uh, really drew me in.
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And talk a little bit more about how that became your identity and kind of grew to be
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such a dominant part of your life when you were, I'm guessing, preteen, teenage years.
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And so I would kind of seek out those experiences.
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I made my own Ouija boards, um, really wanting to have more contact with these beings again,
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I didn't get that because with these beings, I felt like I, they were actual experience.
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And I would try to have imaginary friends, but it was just different.
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So to me, these were my friends who saw me, who knew me, who loved me.
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Um, and so growing up again, I continued trying to escape myself.
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I had developed an eating disorder, um, in eighth grade.
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And when I got to high school, I wanted to fit in with people.
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I really just kept making other things my idol.
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I didn't, the truth is like, I didn't know who God was.
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I didn't know that in that pain of my abuse and what was going on and the confusion and
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the things that I was doing, that there was a good God that I could run to and that Jesus
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isn't just someone to imagine, but that he is this perfect savior who went to the cross
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And that on the cross, he died bearing God's wrath and my sin in my place, died, rose again,
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and now has ascended to the right hand of God as the one mediator between God and man.
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I had no understanding that there was a savior that I could go to, that I could run to, that
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I could cast my anxieties on because he cares for me.
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So these beings knowing me, in addition to escaping myself through any means possible,
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and even in idolatrous, very confused friendships.
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Um, and then I realized that if I didn't start drinking and doing drugs, I would lose those
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friendships because that's what they were doing.
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I forgot to mention that my dad, um, who was very close to my mom, separated from him when
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I was five because he had a meth addiction and an alcohol addiction.
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And a lot of confusion about who you were, who was your caretaker, like who really cared
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So it kind of, I mean, it makes sense to me that a child as young as seven would latch
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on to something that they feel is a power bigger than them.
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And that is steady and sees them as special because that's how you wanted to feel.
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And you wanted to feel known without having to tell the people around you because of the
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Um, you talked about trying to communicate to these entities through like a Ouija board.
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What other ways were you trying to communicate to them and have a relationship with them?
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Um, it was really when I got older, it was more when I was young.
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I wasn't doing a whole lot of reaching out to them, but in high school, starting to take
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on these more new age beliefs without knowing that that was what it was with the book, the
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This is really making sense for what I've experienced and diving into that.
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And then once I, I was in a, um, relationship that was very confusing, I believe to this
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person was my twin flame, actually more than my twin flame.
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He taught me that we lived hundreds of lives and, um, in, we were each other and that in
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some of them, we sadly were sent on different quests, but we were the same being ultimately.
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And, um, that relationship was very, uh, painful, but all that to say being more introduced to
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these new age ideologies, I started using, uh, now the drugs I was specifically taking
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I was getting into psychedelic drugs to do that.
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It's kind of like these different frequencies or ways that you can trigger your mind allegedly
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to go into altered states of consciousness, similar to a guided meditation, but just to
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Um, and again, this was very alluring to me because it was escaping myself now in much more powerful
00:13:47.780
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You know, you've talked about before that some of the friendships that you had had with,
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As a young person that they were also being sexually abused and you felt from an early age
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that you also had to be sexual and that it caused a lot of sexual confusion in your life,
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which really plays a part in this escapism and seeking to have communication with the
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Can you talk about some of that confusion about your own identity?
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I felt so much shame and so much guilt and there is some confusion around like what is
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true, what is sexual orientation confusion, what is just lust, what is, and in my case,
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I think especially later on, there was just a general depravity and misunderstanding about
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But there, um, I would go through these friendships and just really hope that I'd never be found
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out, uh, and that you had been sexually abused or sexually abused and that there had been sexual
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And I had a friendship where the person who was, I saw as a friend, but there had been that,
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um, intimacy for lack of better words, started having feelings for me and that-
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And there's a lot of fear that, um, that, that being public would then expose to me.
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Not just the one thing, but everything that I, you know, then people will really see me
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And so that confusion and just pushing it down, um, really just confusion about sexuality
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and, uh, all together who I am as, as a person was driving those confusions.
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I mean, your first introduction to sexuality was so disordered.
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And I mean, there's a lot of data out there that the earlier a child is introduced to sex
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inappropriate, like inappropriately like that, the more likely they are to be confused down
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And it's interesting that even though you didn't grow up in a traditional Christian home,
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that you still had this feeling that this is not right.
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You weren't seeking the savior to save you from those things yet, but you were seeking
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And I think there was just this real false gospel being preached to me, although I wouldn't
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have seen it then through these beings that was like, you are special.
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You have a purpose and you can be, you know, liberated from this because we have this plan
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And I think that's why I found so much identity in it.
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So you mentioned that you kind of got into the new age, the secret, the law of attraction.
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Um, tell us a little bit about what that is and what revelations you felt that you had
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when you were reading that, I think in your early twenties, I actually read this in high
00:18:32.920
So was it right around that time of that really unhealthy relationship with the twin flame
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This was one relationship before that and more, um, yeah, in a different abusive relationship.
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But when I read that, it talks about basically you can make your dreams come true.
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Um, you can, your thoughts create your reality.
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You actually have the power to create whatever life you want.
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And you are the most important being in the universe because you can manifest whatever life
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And, but it was very packaged like Barnes and Noble and, um, yeah.
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Not Barnes and Noble now, but packaged in a way that it was palatable for many people.
00:19:15.240
It was kind of self-empowerment and this is great.
00:19:20.220
It was interesting looking back, seeing on the first page now, it says as above, so below
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the emerald tablets of Thoth, who later in my story is the entity that I was following
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that got me or that I believed was the entity that I was following that got me deep, deep
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It's pure darkness and it's just hidden on the front page.
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But again, it's sold as this very glittery, beautiful girl boss.
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You can manifest your success by just declaring it.
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Which is interesting because when you, when it doesn't work, it's your fault because you,
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you must've thought a negative thought somewhere along the line.
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So it really does become this thing that puts you in bondage, but it sounded very freeing
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I mean, there were good parts of it, but generally I didn't.
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And I can actually make my life be whatever it is because I have the power to be my own
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It really goes back to Genesis and just promising that the power of knowing the difference between,
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you know, the, the knowledge of good and evil eating from that tree will give Eve God-like
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Um, so you got into this relationship with someone who said that you were twin flames
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and you kind of already explained it, but basically what that means that there is like this internal
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flame between you and this other person that was always meant to be, it was eternal, as
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And it really doesn't matter if my understanding is correct.
00:21:09.300
If like, like twin flames could be married to different people, but they're just in the
00:21:14.100
And if you meet, you have to get together because it is almost this external, powerful,
00:21:19.340
transcendent force that is pulling you together.
00:21:26.920
And really what I believed and it, it was so ultimately I had, I made this man, my God, like
00:21:34.360
he became my religion, um, teaching me about the new age.
00:21:40.220
The first time that I saw him, I felt that same familiar feeling that I saw that I felt
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And so it was this deep connection of, in a world of a lot of darkness and pain in my
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world, it was like, here's this person with color and with answers and with beautiful things
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And I really dove into that until I, I became just a follower of him.
00:22:06.340
And he started to teach me, it's with him that I started trying psychedelic drugs, getting
00:22:12.520
more, and we went to new age festivals similar to Burning Man, but on smaller scales where we're,
00:22:18.060
I'm learning more about sexual liberation and polyamory and all these different, uh, new
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age ideas and, um, practices like charging my crystals in the moonlight.
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And, and I, again, having no, not knowing who I was finding my identity in this new thing
00:22:35.720
that promised me power to create my own reality.
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And ultimately, uh, because I was serving this person so much to work off karma and become
00:22:48.360
And sorry to back up a little bit because I believe this was the previous relationship,
00:22:54.640
The person that you had dated before this, that was also an abusive relationship.
00:22:57.840
He was native American and with that, I'm, I'm guessing there came, you know, a set of
00:23:04.600
beliefs that he had that also influenced kind of your paganism and your belief in the new
00:23:11.460
Um, yeah, my main quote unquote good memories of with him that weren't, uh, violent or staying
00:23:18.820
up all night on drugs on the reservation, talking about aliens and ancestors and elements and
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just different things that I was learning and being taught.
00:23:30.280
And again, I still, what's amazing is I still would have said I was a Christian, even in
00:23:33.920
high school through drug abuse, alcohol abuse, living for myself, living in sin.
00:23:38.560
I would have said I was a Christian because I really didn't know what that meant.
00:23:41.840
And if someone said it, if someone confronted me, which by God's grace, a couple of people
00:23:45.860
did, I would have thought you don't, you can't judge my heart.
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Um, but in this relationship, I still would have said I was a Christian, but the reality
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was I never knew Christ, but also the little truth that I did know, I was giving more and
00:24:01.000
more a way to embrace these ideas that, you know, it's judgmental to not embrace this new
00:24:07.920
Native American idea because they, you know, maybe they were here first or just starting
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And tell me how you kind of graduated, if that's even the right word, or got into what is the occult.
00:25:40.980
Because the occult and the New Age aren't necessarily the same things, right?
00:25:46.680
I personally would say that the occult is where the New Age roots are.
00:25:51.500
If you follow the New Age, you'll find the occult.
00:25:54.360
And when the relationship with this twin, quote unquote, twin flame ended, it was very awful.
00:26:04.060
You felt like your whole self was wrapped up in this person.
00:26:08.220
And I had just moved to Hollywood and gotten a studio apartment to be closer to him.
00:26:12.940
And then I got the call that it was over, but he was coming back for me.
00:26:17.280
And I was left with, in a like a spiritual sense or like, like I'm breaking up with you,
00:26:24.720
but because we're twin flames, we'll find our way back to each other kind of thing.
00:26:33.080
And it was, it was both the spiritual and the physical, I'm coming back for you.
00:26:38.900
You should, you know, keep doing drugs to wait for me so that it'll pass faster.
00:26:42.860
And just these, these things, but I really believed them to the extent that now that I'm
00:26:47.020
married, to be honest, uh, or I guess I should say to be completely vulnerable, it was really
00:26:53.300
hard for me to take that step because there was still this lie that I'd harbored for years.
00:27:00.800
So there was a lot of, it was hard for you to take the step of marriage because, you know,
00:27:06.140
Satan had just embedded that twin flame idea in your mind.
00:27:11.880
And so graduating when, when it did end being, I mean, I really snapped, which I already was
00:27:19.620
pretty deep in it, but I snapped thinking I, at this time, my dad was homeless on the
00:27:25.960
streets in LA and when it would rain, it would just destroy me thinking about him because
00:27:29.620
I was his responsible party and there's a lot of pain and this isn't working by God's
00:27:36.420
grace when I was in the new age and at these festivals, you know, there would be Tantra
00:27:42.160
yoga tents and basically like pagan orgy kind of things going on.
00:27:47.460
And the idea that you need to embrace your sexual liberation, sexual freedom.
00:27:52.920
And there were just some things that I couldn't do.
00:27:55.920
There was a restraint there that I just felt so wrong to me that I couldn't do it.
00:28:02.300
And that made me really upset because I thought that my Christian dogma, Christian dogma was
00:28:07.600
holding me back from being truly free and truly liberated.
00:28:10.260
So I'd be so upset with myself that I couldn't be who my twin flame wanted me to be or who
00:28:16.420
I thought I would fit in more with these people if I could be.
00:28:19.140
But when the relationship ended, I just thought I need to ultimately I wanted to sear my conscience.
00:28:26.820
I wanted to push it all down and just go in and find where the real power was because
00:28:30.880
manifesting my reality wasn't working out so well.
00:28:34.160
And so that really looked like me locking myself in the studio apartment, using drugs,
00:28:41.040
spending all of my time researching whatever I was led to in that twin flame relationship.
00:28:47.460
I had really believed that these entities wanted to see through my eyes, not thinking of that
00:28:53.160
as possession, just thinking, you know, I've known these entities.
00:29:01.600
And they just want to use my body and see through my eyes.
00:29:04.180
And it's interesting because if you had just dropped in there, it sounds so clearly bad.
00:29:11.800
But having been my whole life kind of working up to this, it just made the next logical step
00:29:19.640
And so diving into all that then now, just diving into it more, I got into something called
00:29:25.460
lucid dreaming, where I was practicing waking up in my dreams so that I could control my dreams
00:29:31.780
and go on these astral planes and meet my spirit guides and learn more knowledge and something
00:29:38.480
Yes, I was very isolated, would have a hard time having conversations with people.
00:29:52.220
Something called astral projection, also doing similar kind of things.
00:29:56.400
And I also was led to this entity called Thoth and something called the Emerald Tablets of
00:30:02.080
And I'd strung a clothesline across my studio apartment and painted the words on it.
00:30:07.240
And I was just so obsessed trying to find the secret knowledge and the next key to unlock
00:30:13.960
And you said that these entities that you still thought were aliens at this point, they wanted
00:30:29.060
Did you ever have a moment where you felt like, okay, they're in?
00:30:35.000
I think that sometimes, especially in meditative states, I would feel more connected with them
00:30:42.800
But there was, as I got deeper and deeper into it, I remember looking at my eyes in the mirror,
00:30:50.700
like just meeting my gaze and just my blood running cold with fear of like, I do not recognize
00:31:00.060
And, but still thinking, I need to go into the darkness and shine the light of knowledge
00:31:05.880
and all these words that I'd learned to feel the fear and do it anyway.
00:31:16.840
I would write things like, I'm an alien watching through the eyes of a girl.
00:31:20.700
And just very dark things, uh, really getting more and more depraved as well.
00:31:32.540
It was, it's kind of strange, but it was like every, the next thing would glow, physically
00:31:42.000
Um, I didn't know what was physical reality and what was just, uh, me seeing things, you
00:31:53.280
I was walking down the street and I saw a Freemason lodge and that glowed.
00:31:57.520
So that got me more into the, uh, Masonic texts, Kabbalistic texts.
00:32:02.500
And I don't know, we, I don't really know what Freemason is or what Masonic texts are.
00:32:10.920
So Freemasonry, um, I, I get a lot of pushback when I talk about Freemasonry because Freemasonry
00:32:18.620
Uh, they do have other orders that I actually reached out to the Freemason lodge.
00:32:23.320
It's, it's, uh, I think they would call themselves more of a fraternity, like a brotherhood.
00:32:30.220
Uh, ultimately I think that it has a lot to do with idolatry and Gnosticism, uh, but secret
00:32:37.280
And when I reached out to them, they recommended me to the Eastern star, which is their order
00:32:42.180
for women that also goes into very secret, um, secret teachings, uh, there, but the order
00:32:49.920
that I ended up getting involved in called the golden dawn was started by three master
00:32:55.700
masons and, uh, brought a lot of Masonic ideas and symbolism because Freemasonry can be very
00:33:04.400
Also brought in Rosicrucianism, which is another, uh, philosophy kind of taking, it's an esoteric
00:33:12.860
So I've heard it said that what Rosicrucians kind of think about or use as a philosophy,
00:33:22.760
And so I ended up being led to the golden dawn, which took a lot of, really, I ended up being
00:33:29.620
led there because I saw these tarot cards that were glowing and they were the, ended up being
00:33:33.680
the Thoth tarot deck by a man named Alistair Crowley.
00:33:36.880
Um, and he's known as the most wicked man to have ever lived.
00:33:40.660
He is, uh, he actually popularized a lot of wicked things here in America.
00:33:49.300
Um, well, bringing the occult over here, but Alistair Crowley's, uh, form of magic and was
00:33:58.620
so gross, uh, a lot to do with the belief that sexual fluids have more magical power.
00:34:07.920
This would be, um, but he would even take that to the nth degree, uh, including children.
00:34:14.820
Very, very awful things that, uh, are, are said about him.
00:34:19.360
Um, and he brought that here to the United States.
00:34:25.100
Um, and I believe he was on the Beatles cover, Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
00:34:31.460
And he's, he was very, uh, pushed by the music industry at one point.
00:34:44.520
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00:35:08.100
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00:35:12.580
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00:35:15.980
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00:35:22.900
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00:36:21.380
As you said, you thought that these entities were kind of showing you the direction to
00:36:26.600
go, the things to buy, what to focus on based on glowing.
00:36:29.900
You, you saw the Freemasonry Lodge, which was glowing.
00:36:33.740
So you felt like, okay, I got to go that direction.
00:36:39.540
And then you found these tarot cards, which you said were tarot cards of Thoth, which was
00:36:44.460
the entity that was at the beginning of that secret book, right?
00:36:47.900
It feels like one of those weird, like, no, yeah, but I'm just making sure that everyone
00:36:51.680
has it kind of mapped because yeah, Satan uses these things and pieces them together and
00:36:58.180
kind of like an upside down of what can be like a beautiful testimony of redemption is
00:37:04.400
also like a testimony of, of darkness for those that he's trying to lead astray.
00:37:08.880
And so that's how all of those pieces kind of came together.
00:37:12.280
So you're in this metaphysical shop, you see these tarot cards, you feel like they're
00:37:16.060
glowing, they're created by this very, very evil, pedophilic, sexually predatory, so-called
00:37:22.740
magician, Alistair Crowley, you buy the tarot cards.
00:37:29.140
I just spent almost all of my time trying to take the images into my psyche, trying to
00:37:36.640
really take this tarot deck in and started dreaming about them, started practicing tarot.
00:37:43.280
So, and from that deck and the Alistair Crowley information is how I learned about the Golden
00:37:49.680
Dawn, really, how I got introduced and felt that definitely played a big part in me feeling
00:37:56.100
like this was the next step, was joining this Golden Dawn.
00:37:59.380
And Alistair Crowley was in the Golden Dawn, the original Golden Dawn.
00:38:02.800
And so I really thought, okay, this is the most wicked man to ever live.
00:38:10.220
I tried to make my own justifications of what is good and what is evil and trying to say,
00:38:21.160
I have family members that were involved in Freemasonry and that was one of the things they're
00:38:26.620
So that sounds good, but their symbol is of an upside down pentagram.
00:38:32.520
But the Golden Dawn has a cross symbol, at least a cross involved in the symbol.
00:38:41.680
Thinking that I just, it took me a while and a lot of back and forth before really reaching
00:38:53.000
The original Golden Dawn ended a long time ago, but now there are people who have orders.
00:38:57.820
And I was living in LA at the time that had an order where they practiced the same magical
00:39:03.120
And so reached out to them and a man asked me to meet him at a coffee shop in Silver Lake.
00:39:09.300
And when we started talking, everything that he was saying to me was exactly what I'd been
00:39:15.260
led to from astrology, Kabbalah, the Egyptian deities, tarot, all these things was exactly
00:39:26.860
So it was like, wow, this man's speaking my language.
00:39:28.700
I can actually have a conversation with this person.
00:39:30.720
Um, and I was really excited and the words like you were called to this, uh, were used.
00:39:36.620
So it just, it felt like I was about to get in on the secret club that my alien entities,
00:39:45.740
What were some other things that he was saying that resonated with you?
00:39:49.840
It was really the way that he spoke in a very like deep, esoteric way, talking about the
00:39:57.040
I, I'd been practicing alchemy, which has to do with the great work.
00:40:02.700
It's kind of what they call the work of, um, of being in this magical order.
00:40:10.800
Alchemy is also called the great work and it has a lot to do with something called transmuting
00:40:15.240
where you're taking gross matter and it's being transmuted to gold, but more in a, your
00:40:21.540
soul allegedly is going from being on this lower level to you go through transmutation until
00:40:34.220
Um, and so it was really exciting for someone to, to be talking about the things that I so
00:40:41.600
This, so this is the moment that you felt finally all that I've been working toward, that I've
00:40:48.680
been listening to all of the, even the drugs that I've been doing, the painting in my apartment
00:40:59.200
Um, I was asked to go to a Freemason Lodge to be initiated and I was so excited.
00:41:05.740
And, um, I remember I was listening to the soundtrack for Fantasmic on the way there because
00:41:11.180
I felt like all the sorcery and the themes in Disney, I finally understood what they meant
00:41:15.380
and I was going to go live it out, um, for real though.
00:41:21.820
I was just excited and they had me, um, yeah, when I got there, there was a woman on the
00:41:28.080
top of the stairs waiting for me in a full black robe with a hood.
00:41:34.600
Or were you kind of used to that kind of imagery?
00:41:36.520
Yeah, I was, it made sense given all the things I'd been studying and pouring my life into.
00:41:42.460
I wasn't working at the time other than, you know, DoorDash here and there.
00:41:47.000
So all my time went into obsessively studying these things.
00:41:51.020
Um, so it just made sense, uh, and I was put in a room.
00:41:59.320
I had to wear red socks and I was told not so much to pray, but to meditate, to prepare
00:42:07.240
Um, and the ritual itself, I was hoodwinked, so I couldn't see.
00:42:15.040
A lot of it had to do with taking John 1, 5 out of context.
00:42:18.560
Um, the idea that you're going into the darkness to shine the light of knowledge in it, the
00:42:25.120
Um, a lot of, uh, symbolism to do with duality, darkness and light and ancient Egyptian hermeticism.
00:42:33.260
And, um, there was a sword put to my neck swearing that I would never share what I learned.
00:42:48.260
And I'd also been in a sorority where they're, you know, they're similar like theatrics and
00:42:53.400
So I, I remember telling one of them like, oh, I'm not scared of, I went through something
00:43:02.460
Like it felt like you're saying sacred, but, but yeah, so I was initiated.
00:43:07.580
I took a lot of pride in thinking that I was again, special, had been called to this and
00:43:14.180
I continued going to the Masonic lodge to do, uh, to practice, to learn.
00:43:20.660
Um, and there was a time where we spent like 12 hour days for a couple of days, all just
00:43:27.840
doing invocation rituals, sigils, um, learning hermetic magic.
00:43:34.720
And I would have still said I was a Christian, which is amazing.
00:43:39.620
I would bow down to a golden idol before entering this room.
00:43:44.740
I would, um, these invocations of these demonic entities were bowing my face down before golden
00:43:52.560
And we'd take communion, it makes me emotional, but we'd take communion, um, or they call it
00:43:58.720
Eucharist to Osiris, who's an Egyptian deity, um, with bread and wine.
00:44:04.460
And I, I thought I was getting closer to Christ because that's what we were told.
00:44:08.440
Uh, we would use the name Jesus Christ, but Jesus was someone that you become someone that
00:44:14.160
I just thought I had a deeper understanding of what it meant to be Christian, but I was worshiping
00:44:18.320
demons and I was becoming more and more depraved sexually.
00:44:22.560
Um, and in every other way, my gender, uh, or not my gender, but my sexual identity, I got
00:44:29.760
involved in sex magic, um, which really came with it.
00:44:34.920
The, my belief, which is taught that the height of sexual, uh, you know, pleasure is a more
00:44:45.120
And it's just, if you go down to its core, how the original teaching is more so to practice
00:44:55.200
I, are they like orgies with people of all different kinds of genders?
00:44:59.220
I, I personally didn't partake in, in, um, in them with other people, but in my own, uh,
00:45:11.140
So, because the thought is that like orgasm gives you greater access to the supernatural
00:45:17.480
and you can more effectively manifest what you want.
00:45:22.720
It's seen as a very powerful energy that at that point, if you hold in your mind, the thing
00:45:28.640
that you're trying to manifest that that moment is the most powerful moment to manifest that.
00:45:33.580
Also, I, I, I was very unhealthy from the drug use and all that.
00:45:37.480
So I didn't personally have a cycle, but I really wanted to, because the idea of menstrual
00:45:41.920
blood is seen as powerful, powerful for releasing and powerful blood in general, powerful for magical
00:45:49.560
So when I see people doing things like abortion rituals or, um, releasing, you know, seeing
00:45:56.780
it as a, as a practice, as a something magical, it makes sense with the lies that I was believing
00:46:06.220
But when you really get into the occult and you see like the belief system regarding blood,
00:46:12.200
regarding sexual things, regarding duality and fluidity and, um, none of what I'm seeing
00:46:27.740
So I get so many questions from you guys asking me, like, how can I get involved?
00:46:33.920
Like I'm going to vote and I am going to try to convince my friends to be pro-life, but
00:46:43.660
You can partner with clinics like pre-born, which is a network of clinics across the country
00:46:47.720
that offers free resources to pregnant moms in need.
00:46:51.280
And one of the most consequential things that they offer these women is a free ultrasound.
00:46:55.620
When a woman sees her baby in the womb through that sonogram, when she hears that beating
00:47:01.140
heart, she is so much more likely to choose life because all of the lies that she's been
00:47:05.140
hearing from the abortion lobby, that it's just a clump of cells.
00:47:08.180
Well, those are completely washed away by the reality that this is a life inside her that
00:47:13.240
is depending on her to grow and to survive and thrive.
00:47:20.680
You can donate just $28 that covers the cost of a sonogram and can save a life, but whatever
00:47:26.920
you can donate helps, whether it's $5, maybe it's $5,000.
00:47:39.960
Talk a little bit more about that abortion ritual, because shockingly, I saw a post by
00:47:50.760
Cosmopolitan on Instagram, I think last year is when we talked about it, that was basically
00:48:05.980
We've actually seen the satanic temple try to carve out exceptions in states that have
00:48:13.820
passed pro-life legislation, carve out exceptions for religious freedom for them to say, well,
00:48:18.540
it is part of our religious freedom to sacrifice basically unborn babies.
00:48:23.680
And so you're saying that that whole thing doesn't surprise you because they see blood as
00:48:37.420
It was more something that I believed and saw in terms of what I was learning and more
00:48:46.200
I didn't get to the point where it was being practiced, but if it had started to, praise
00:48:52.140
God that I was saved before then, but if it had started to, it would have made sense to
00:48:58.360
Based on what I was fully believing and thought was good.
00:49:04.740
That can be so disturbing about this is I thought it was good that you are God of your own body
00:49:12.220
and why would you let a man tell you that there's something wrong with using your own blood for
00:49:18.820
magical practices or using your body autonomously was seen as a way to conduct magic.
00:49:27.120
And it was also glorified that, you know, we're going back to our pagan roots and just
00:49:31.260
seen almost hand in hand with woman empowerment, self-empowerment, ultimately, again, making
00:49:38.960
And it just reminds me that it is, once again, a subversion, a perversion of what Jesus said
00:49:48.780
He gave his own flesh as a sacrifice once and for all that covers our sin.
00:49:53.320
But the occult is saying you have to spill your blood.
00:49:56.780
You have to give your body to make a sacrifice to whatever deity it is and in that you will receive
00:50:08.040
So it's this kind of, as you said, self-deification and self-worship and being your own savior,
00:50:17.560
which we hear that language a lot in non-occult spaces and very beautiful female empowerment
00:50:32.000
We hear that from people like Brene Brown, all these beautiful, blonde, wealthy, successful
00:50:37.520
women who seem to, at least in some cases, have these great relationships that whether
00:50:42.780
they're saying those words or not, they are saying the same message that you can get what
00:50:50.360
And by being your own leader, being your own God, following your heart, you can basically
00:50:57.420
And if you love yourself enough, it will unlock all of these inner powers that you have inside
00:51:04.620
Is that a parallel that you see in the mainstream?
00:51:09.880
And knowing where it comes from is so disturbing because, well, one, you know where it comes
00:51:16.520
It is that lie that, you know, you can be your own God.
00:51:19.620
And for me, learning the knowledge of both good and evil, your eyes will be opened and
00:51:25.800
And also to what you're saying, again, the teaching was Jesus is a type to become.
00:51:33.560
It cuts away his deity or that he's preeminent or the truth about who he is.
00:51:39.980
And even whether it's your blood or someone else's blood, again, stripping from the Bible,
00:51:47.160
And so much of what we're doing in that Freemason ritual room was taking the Bible like we would
00:51:53.720
during rituals use like a Psalm, Psalm 51, I believe.
00:51:58.660
But in Latin or Kabbalah and Gematria basically says, you know, the Bible, yes, but you have
00:52:06.400
to read it in a code and the Hebrew letters have numerical value and it's all this secret.
00:52:11.140
The Bible becomes secret knowledge and doing banishing rituals, saying the names of God,
00:52:17.100
like the Hebrew names of God and the Lord's Prayer to perform occult rituals, trying to
00:52:25.360
take as though also the ritual room was set up like the tabernacle.
00:52:30.080
So it's like taking from the Bible and trying to suck power for me.
00:52:38.540
And then totally perverting the Bible again to make you God.
00:52:43.240
It's truly Luciferianism at heart and was so entrapping because thinking, no, we are using
00:52:51.360
the Bible and learning the names of God and Hebrew and all these things.
00:52:55.420
I just have the secret knowledge that you don't.
00:52:58.420
And so, again, if you would have, I would have talked about Jesus, God, the Bible, being
00:53:03.720
a Christian, but my definitions of all those terms and the way that I was practicing it
00:53:17.240
That word tends to be more with the new age, but the idea that Christ is like this consciousness,
00:53:23.920
like almost that he attained this level of consciousness that you can too and step into
00:53:30.760
Almost the idea of as Christ was, you can be if you just are as he is and ascend to that
00:53:39.360
And a lot of the time it has to do with your higher power and awakening.
00:53:43.200
But usually those awakening ways are very new age, very Eastern.
00:53:48.420
And again, cutting away at who Jesus is, he's no longer the savior you are because you can be
00:53:54.960
him, which is a total lie and could have never saved me.
00:54:03.220
And I've seen people who would say that they're Christians, but then I see that language of
00:54:10.800
Christ consciousness or becoming Christ, not becoming like Christ, but taking on, becoming
00:54:17.420
the mind of Christ, which really doesn't mean following after his words in scripture.
00:54:22.600
It really means, as you said, becoming a little God and attaining to the highest form of humanity
00:54:32.920
How did you get out of the occult and come to Christ?
00:54:42.980
And I just had moments of realizing how depraved I was.
00:54:47.260
There was a moment where I looked in the mirror again and I heard this voice saying,
00:54:50.620
it's crazy how evil becomes you, but it was this voice that was not my own.
00:54:59.800
But I had thought this might be evil what I'm doing.
00:55:03.400
I don't really know, but I can just go back to doing what's right later.
00:55:07.260
Like I thought there's a difference between doing something that might be evil and being
00:55:11.920
But it was in that moment I realized like who I am inside, like constantly doing evil
00:55:17.680
things like there's, this is way worse than I thought.
00:55:22.120
And again, in the order we were practicing things that involve the Bible.
00:55:27.160
And I just read the Bhagavad Gita, which is a Hindu text as it is, which is a very, very
00:55:32.380
long, basically their scripture with commentary.
00:55:35.420
So I was very prideful thinking I read that I might as well read the Bible.
00:55:38.620
It's just another, it's just another one of sacred texts and there must be something to
00:55:46.880
And I read that you can tell a tree by its fruit.
00:55:50.780
I probably was in Matthew seven and I didn't really know what that meant, but I knew it
00:55:56.880
pierced me that the fruit of the people in this order, including me, but even the highest
00:56:02.220
up in the order, they're just as depraved as me.
00:56:08.140
Not like that has anything to do with salvation, but if they can control the universe, like
00:56:17.620
And also just knowing that they're just as broken as me kind of gave me pause.
00:56:23.500
And then another thing was I read, uh, in second Corinthians 11, 14, that Satan masquerades
00:56:35.740
But when I read that, I realized, no, Satan is behind this.
00:56:40.940
Um, I, I always felt that deep down, but I wanted to find out for myself.
00:56:44.720
I, I didn't mention this, but I had these abduction experiences.
00:56:50.300
Um, well, one abduction experience, multiple contact experiences, and the abduction was the
00:56:55.280
first time that I thought maybe these are evil, uh, very scary things.
00:56:59.180
So that there'd been that little bit of doubt that made me think, uh, maybe evil was behind
00:57:04.820
And reading that verse again, pierced my heart where I realized, no, Satan is behind what
00:57:10.260
But I was still so prideful that I didn't turn from my, what I was doing.
00:57:14.500
Um, and then one night I remembered Genesis three.
00:57:19.160
I, I just remembered that the lie, the lie in the garden was that if you eat from the tree
00:57:25.140
of the knowledge of good and evil, your eyes will be opened and you'll be like God knowing
00:57:45.600
I just thought, I don't know who I am apart from this.
00:57:53.800
And then one night, um, in my studio apartment, it was just like any other night.
00:57:57.920
And I was walking across and I was spiritually attacked, which would happen.
00:58:02.960
And I fell to my knees and it felt like my soul was being sucked out into just utter darkness
00:58:16.020
And in that moment, just like that, I felt the peace that I'd been longing for my entire
00:58:22.880
And I knew that it was the God of the Bible, the father, the son, and the Holy spirit who,
00:58:27.900
who saved me, who delivered me from that attack.
00:58:33.620
All that darkness that I was tied up in that I thought I would never escape.
00:58:38.900
And I was shaking because I realized if the God of the Bible is real, which he is, then
00:58:45.780
he says that sorcery is an abomination and divination, all these practices that I'm doing.
00:58:53.160
So I got out my Bible and I started reading it, uh, still thinking I had the secret knowledge,
00:58:58.260
but it didn't matter because as I was reading it, it was like I was being filled.
00:59:04.700
Whereas every other thing that I read, it would leave me hungrier and emptier and I would
00:59:08.720
keep searching and searching and searching, always learning, never coming to the knowledge
00:59:16.040
And, um, I just kept reading it and reading it and really to learn, to learn that God is
00:59:26.140
God was just like me, but that God has given me every good thing that I've ever had.
00:59:30.500
Um, and yet I have sinned against this holy God, uh, truly in my case, it's very clear
00:59:36.240
for me to see that I sinned, but that I'd sinned against God and that there's a just punishment
00:59:42.400
I really, I did in a sense have a sense of impending doom, like fear, but learning that the, the
00:59:49.820
punishment for sin is just, and it is a very real place called hell, but that God is love
00:59:54.780
and that he sent Jesus Christ, not me, not someone that you can be, but Jesus Christ,
01:00:00.700
God incarnate coming to earth, living a perfect life that I clearly did not live, even though
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And then going to the cross, despising the shame, being beaten, mocked, scourged and crucified
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Like this, me bowing down to those golden idols, me living this lifestyle, he bore that
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in my place and that he bore God's wrath for that in my place.
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And that he died and rose again as a one mediator between God and man.
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And reading that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the father
01:00:41.660
But that when I repented of my sin and turned from my rebellion against this God who, again,
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has given me every good thing that I've ever received and put my faith in Christ alone for
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my salvation, that I could be washed white as snow.
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That reality was stunning to me because I knew that I was dirty.
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And to be made a new creation in Christ, that there's no condemnation in Christ, that you're
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born again, the reality of that was so, I mean, beyond amazing to me.
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I realized for the first time I could get sober.
01:01:27.360
He was with me and spoke to me through his word.
01:01:35.800
And I'm truly amazed at who God truly is, which is so, he is so much better than I could
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I could have never pulled myself up by the bootstraps.
01:01:46.780
But God truly saved me and has given me new life in him and healed me from so, so many
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Tell us about one of the first churches that you walked into.
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And you realized, if I remember correctly, that this was actually not a church that she
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And it's interesting to me that you had that discernment.
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And I'd been reading the word for a while and listening to some sermons before actually
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And I was living in Hollywood at the time, right in the center of Hollywood, and the closest
01:02:36.640
And all that she talked about was how they were going to get more LBGTQ rights in the
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And it just felt like this town hall, like social justice meeting.
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Like, it took so much for me to walk to that church and to be met with that.
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So praise God that I found this other church where the pastor, it was a very, very small
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And the pastor and his wife so graciously sat with me and walked me through scripture.
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And I had a really hard time with different doctrines.
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And they just walked me through it and were patient with me.
01:03:28.640
And God really used that to grow me as I was involved in that local body.
01:03:35.860
And also that the Holy Spirit obviously convicted you away from that.
01:03:39.080
And such a good reminder for us that, like, people are walking into our churches hungry
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And we actually both moved from California at almost the exact same time.
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And it's kind of a hilarious story of a lot of friendship and awkwardness.
01:04:06.760
But it's just been so cool how God has used him and used his love for the Lord and just
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the way he selflessly serves me and points me to scripture and washes me with the water
01:04:19.300
I learned God has taught me so much about what love is, especially romantic love through my
01:04:24.780
husband, God uses this marriage in many ways to sanctify me because, you know, childhood
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sexual abuse, a lifetime of sin, abusive relationships.
01:04:36.940
And God has been so kind to use this relationship to point me to the character of God and to show
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me the way that he has designed love to be between a man and a woman and those different
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And I'm just so blessed and thankful to be able to walk this out with him by my side.
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And if people want to hear more from you, you talk a lot about the differences between
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the new age and Christianity, how people need to be on the lookout for that in culture.
01:05:10.080
Um, and also within, uh, subsets of the church or even people who call themselves Christians
01:05:21.500
If people want to hear more about that from you, where can they go?
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Um, you can find me on YouTube, Jack Marino Chen, and the same as on Instagram.
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And then I also have a podcast with Doreen Virtue and Jen Miza called New Age to New Heart,
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which is on YouTube as well as Spotify and Apple.
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Thank you so much for joining us and for the courage to share your testimony.