Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1074 ｜ OBGYN Busts Myths on Miscarriages & Late-Term Abortions ｜ Guest： Dr. Christina Francis

00:00:00.580 Dr. Christina Francis is the CEO of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and

00:00:07.500 Gynecologists, and she is here today to tell us the truth about the disinformation that

00:00:13.420 we are seeing in the media about abortions and miscarriages, what is really going on

00:00:18.780 in hospitals.

00:00:20.000 Is it the fault of these pro-life laws?

00:00:22.980 She knows more than most about what goes into these abortion procedures, and she is going

00:00:29.380 to help us separate myth from fact.

00:00:31.600 When it comes to these stories, this is an episode you want to share with your friends

00:00:35.860 who may be confused about pro-life laws.

00:00:38.940 They need to hear it from an expert like Dr. Francis.

00:00:42.120 This episode is brought to you by CrowdHealth.

00:00:45.580 Joincrowdhealth.com slash Allie.

00:00:47.860 Go to joincrowdhealth.com slash Allie.

00:00:59.380 Dr. Francis, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:04.420 Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

00:01:07.920 Absolutely.

00:01:08.740 Thank you so much, Allie, for having me on.

00:01:11.540 My name is Dr. Christina Francis.

00:01:13.440 I'm a board-certified OB-GYN.

00:01:15.540 I practice actually as an OB hospitalist in Northeastern Indiana, and I'm also CEO of APLOG,

00:01:22.200 the American Association of Pro-Life OB-GYNs.

00:01:25.780 We're a professional medical organization with over 7,000 members across the country of medical

00:01:32.360 professionals, not just OB-GYNs, really many specialties who practice life-affirming medicine.

00:01:38.380 And would you say that in the OB-GYN world, it is a minority position to be pro-life?

00:01:46.580 Well, you know, that's an interesting question.

00:01:48.680 I think that we might be a little bit of a silent either majority or sort of in the middle.

00:01:54.680 Well, you know, the surveys actually tell us that 76 to 93 percent of OB-GYNs don't perform

00:02:01.480 abortions. 0.94

00:02:02.300 So we know that the vast majority of OBs don't do abortions.

00:02:06.580 I don't think that necessarily means that all of those that don't do them are pro-life.

00:02:10.920 But we know from talking to many of our members and even just colleagues of mine that there

00:02:15.520 are a lot of OBs out there who are actually pro-life or at least feel some level of discomfort

00:02:21.140 with the idea of abortion.

00:02:23.420 But with our current sort of medical practice environment, it's really difficult for people

00:02:29.880 to speak up about their pro-life beliefs or their pro-life values, unfortunately.

00:02:35.700 And is that why you started your organization?

00:02:38.500 Because even if it's not a minority view or as minority as we are led to believe in the

00:02:44.840 OB-GYN world, you clearly felt like you guys needed to kind of band together and be

00:02:50.280 represented.

00:02:52.320 Yeah, absolutely.

00:02:53.520 Well, so our organization started actually 51 years ago in 1973.

00:02:58.340 The date was not coincidental.

00:03:00.360 It was started actually within the American College of OB-GYNs or ACOG, which is the country's

00:03:06.520 largest professional organization.

00:03:08.480 I'm sure that you're aware of them and their position on abortion.

00:03:12.480 But, you know, they used to be actually relatively neutral on the issue of abortion until the late

00:03:18.380 60s, early 70s, when the leadership started to become much more pro-abortion.

00:03:23.560 And they then filed pro-abortion amicus briefs in both the Roe and the Doe cases.

00:03:29.700 And when they did that, many of the members within ACOG who were pro-life decided it was

00:03:34.380 time to start a pro-life special interest group to show that many OB-GYNs did not support this

00:03:39.900 move in a pro-abortion direction.

00:03:41.680 And so we were started as a special interest group and quickly became their largest special

00:03:47.760 interest group and stayed that way until 2013.

00:03:51.440 At that point, we had about 2,000 members.

00:03:54.660 And then in 2013, ACOG dissolved the title of special interest group completely, which

00:04:00.620 ended up being a blessing for us.

00:04:02.240 We then launched as our own separate organization and since then have more than tripled in size.

00:04:07.760 And you're right, I think the reason for that is because so many OBs, especially now, see

00:04:14.100 the direction, the radical pro-abortion direction that ACOG has gone to the point where they

00:04:19.320 don't support any regulations, any restrictions whatsoever on abortion.

00:04:25.660 They support self-managed abortions.

00:04:28.420 And they actually are very hostile towards the conscience rights of those of us who are

00:04:33.000 pro-life within the profession.

00:04:34.220 And so it very much has become this refuge and safe haven for pro-life medical professionals.

00:04:40.960 In fact, we just recently launched an emergency medicine subsection because we had ER physicians

00:04:46.760 coming to us and saying that their professional body was following ACOG's lead and becoming very

00:04:52.140 pro-abortion.

00:04:52.840 And they felt like they needed a different professional organization to represent them.

00:04:57.360 Yeah, you kind of answered this, but do you feel like there is an adversarial relationship

00:05:03.160 between your organization and ACOG?

00:05:07.100 And what does that look like?

00:05:08.780 You mentioned their hostility to conscience rights.

00:05:12.160 Can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

00:05:15.020 Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:16.000 So that started really all the way back in 2010 when they issued their ethics statement 385

00:05:22.780 about conscientious rights in medicine.

00:05:25.940 And they basically said that as OBGYNs, if you wanted to be an ethical physician, that

00:05:31.680 you either had to perform or refer for abortions, or if you weren't willing to do that, you had

00:05:37.200 to relocate your practice to within 30 miles of someone who would, which of course is a ridiculous

00:05:43.360 edict.

00:05:43.960 And they then tried to tie our board certification to following those guidelines.

00:05:50.320 And APLOG banded together with a couple other organizations and pushed back against that

00:05:54.520 actually and successfully defeated that.

00:05:56.560 And that's where many of our federal conscience protections came from.

00:06:00.620 But since then, ACOG has just continued to become more and more radical, as I said, and

00:06:06.060 more and more hostile actually towards pro-life OBGYNs.

00:06:10.800 In fact, just when, well, when I took over as CEO, so it was March of last year, we were

00:06:17.140 in D.C. ready to exhibit at an ACOG conference that we had exhibited at every year for the

00:06:22.920 previous 15 years.

00:06:25.440 They had accepted our application for that year, and we were in D.C. ready to exhibit.

00:06:29.880 And this was a conference for medical educators within OB, so the people that are educating

00:06:34.740 the next generation of OBGYNs.

00:06:37.760 So very important conference.

00:06:39.280 We were notified the day before the conference via email that our booth literally had been

00:06:45.560 canceled.

00:06:47.060 And the person emailing us was just trying to find out where to send our refund check

00:06:51.920 to.

00:06:53.200 And so we reached out to ACOG and tried to ask, you know, why are you canceling our exhibit

00:06:59.400 booth?

00:06:59.820 And at first they wouldn't respond.

00:07:01.620 And so we applied a little pressure through you getting some media outlets to get them

00:07:07.900 on the record.

00:07:08.640 And on the record, they said that we are no longer allowed to exhibit at ACOG conferences

00:07:14.180 simply because we're pro-life, that they won't allow our views to be present at their conference.

00:07:19.480 So that's kind of where we're at right now with ACOG, unfortunately.

00:07:23.180 And what does your exhibit typically entail?

00:07:28.460 Nothing inflammatory.

00:07:30.460 Nothing, you know, ideological.

00:07:33.600 It's just simply evidence-based information about the effects of induced abortion on our

00:07:40.800 patients.

00:07:41.340 And honestly, a lot of our material focuses on our maternal patient because, of course,

00:07:47.840 we know that the scientific evidence is very clear that our fetal patient is, in fact, a

00:07:52.240 patient from the moment they come into existence.

00:07:54.820 And so we have information on that.

00:07:56.280 But a lot of our information is actually about giving informed consent to women who are contemplating

00:08:02.240 an abortion decision, you know, so that they know the risks associated with induced abortion.

00:08:07.580 That's all that we have at our exhibit booth.

00:08:09.860 And apparently, evidence-based information is too scary for ACOG.

00:08:14.020 I don't know.

00:08:14.520 You know, I think they just don't want to allow anything to go against their radical pro-abortion

00:08:19.920 narrative right now.

00:08:21.620 Do you have any idea what has made them so radical over the past 10 to 15 years?

00:08:28.880 I know you mentioned in the 60s and 70s, they became more outspokenly pro-abortion.

00:08:33.680 But it seems like that has sped up, like that has intensified over the past 10 to 20 years.

00:08:42.460 Do you have any idea what has gone on inside ACOG to induce that change?

00:08:49.640 You know, I don't know exactly.

00:08:52.180 I mean, they're definitely, they seem to be focused on having people in leadership that

00:08:58.540 agree with them, especially on the issue of abortion and promoting that actually much more

00:09:05.280 so than a lot of other issues that they could be talking about with women's health. 0.96

00:09:09.560 But, you know, I think ACOG is following the same sort of the same trajectory that we're

00:09:14.000 seeing in a lot of medical organizations.

00:09:16.720 You know, when you think about other issues that have happened, the transgender issues

00:09:21.760 and, you know, organizations are not following the evidence and going with this ideological

00:09:26.180 idea.

00:09:28.100 So I think a similar thing has happened with ACOG and with abortion, as we have seen medical

00:09:33.820 schools and residencies being really infiltrated by this idea that induced abortion is essential 0.89

00:09:40.400 women's health care.

00:09:41.300 And so in that, then they're not allowing any talk that goes against that narrative.

00:09:47.940 And, you know, one of the things that we have tried to reach out to ACOG about, in fact,

00:09:52.180 after they kicked us out of their conferences, we invited them to an open academic debate and

00:09:58.020 said, hey, if you disagree with us, great, come to a debate.

00:10:01.300 Let's talk about what the evidence shows.

00:10:03.500 And they refused to do that because they said that abortion is settled science.

00:10:08.000 And so they refused to even debate it.

00:10:09.800 And so I think that they just are completely resistant to anything going against their

00:10:17.360 narrative.

00:10:17.860 They're not even willing to admit that maybe some women experience adverse mental health 1.00

00:10:21.940 outcomes after induced abortion.

00:10:24.060 Instead, they say nobody experiences it, which is not consistent with what not only the medical

00:10:28.920 evidence shows, but what our own practice, you know, shows us.

00:10:32.980 I've met with countless patients who are experiencing horrible depression, anxiety, things like that.

00:10:39.720 After having abortion. 0.83

00:10:41.200 And but they seem to just be afraid to allow any any, again, counter narrative to their

00:10:47.060 pro-abortion narrative into the discussion.

00:10:49.520 Yeah.

00:10:50.220 You know, it's a really good indicator that you're on the wrong side if you have to rely

00:10:55.540 on vagueness, euphemisms, deceit and hiding to defend your position.

00:11:03.620 They're afraid of debate.

00:11:05.440 I've found they're afraid of a conversation, just a science-based conversation about fetal

00:11:11.340 development, what an abortion entails.

00:11:14.320 And if abortion were really health care, if it were really just a decision to get your

00:11:19.920 tooth pulled, basically, then they wouldn't get so angry when you try to simply say what

00:11:27.040 abortion is, because all types of health procedures, true health procedures have some

00:11:32.640 kind of adverse outcomes or risk of adverse outcomes.

00:11:36.480 There is nothing that is riskless, I believe, in the medical world.

00:11:41.200 So the fact that they're denying that there's even a possibility of adverse outcomes when it

00:11:45.880 comes to abortion means they are not only abandoning the data that's available in relation

00:11:52.620 to the specific procedure, but really, like, the scientific method as a whole, the entire

00:11:58.620 mentality around practicing medicine, they're saying this is, like, the one procedure that

00:12:04.120 has no risks to it whatsoever.

00:12:07.040 Right.

00:12:07.540 Right.

00:12:08.140 Yeah, exactly.

00:12:09.020 I mean, personally, I wouldn't trust anyone.

00:12:11.280 If I went to a doctor and they told me anything didn't have a single risk associated with it, you

00:12:15.960 probably better get up and leave that doctor's office.

00:12:18.020 So completely agree.

00:12:20.520 And I think I agree with you.

00:12:22.100 I think that's one thing that people should be aware of to say something might be going

00:12:26.860 on here, you know, if they're not willing to admit any risks.

00:12:30.180 I just got off of doing an interview on NPR and there was another OBGYN on who has a very

00:12:37.300 different position than I do on abortion.

00:12:39.940 And when I tried to bring up that there's 160 studies that show a link between surgical

00:12:45.100 abortion and preterm birth and future pregnancies and that there are numerous studies that show

00:12:49.580 an increased risk of adverse health outcome or mental health outcomes, including a seven

00:12:54.040 times increased risk of suicide, she said there are no studies that show any of that.

00:12:59.000 You know, you can't even admit that there are a few studies.

00:13:01.480 We might disagree on where the majority of the studies lie, but to say that there's not

00:13:05.580 a single study is just is disingenuous.

00:13:08.160 And, you know, I think it's really important, as you said, that we have honest conversations

00:13:13.560 about this.

00:13:14.640 And even people that are on the other side of the abortion issue from you and I at the

00:13:21.040 very least should care about women receiving fully informed consent before they make any 1.00

00:13:26.300 kind of decision.

00:13:27.060 And that includes knowing all the potential risks so that they can make an informed decision.

00:13:31.800 And we know that women simply are not getting that not only from ACOG, but from, you know,

00:13:36.800 abortion providers when they go into abortion facilities.

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00:14:44.600 And, you know, you mentioned conscience rights a few minutes ago, and I'm reminded of what's

00:14:52.900 in the Equality Act.

00:14:54.120 From my understanding, it would really override the conscience rights of many doctors who

00:14:59.740 don't want to perform abortions, basically saying that if you don't want to perform abortions,

00:15:04.940 then you can't be an OBGYN.

00:15:07.180 I'm not sure if you have insight into the Equality Act and what that would mean for you

00:15:11.560 all.

00:15:11.760 Of course, it hasn't passed Congress, but it's a possibility.

00:15:15.520 They're going to keep pushing for that.

00:15:17.680 Is that something that your organization has looked into?

00:15:21.440 Yes, you're absolutely right.

00:15:23.060 So the Equality Act, as well as another bill that has been proposed by the Democrats, is

00:15:28.880 the Women's Health, quote unquote, Women's Health Protection Act.

00:15:31.840 It actually does nothing to protect women's health. 1.00

00:15:34.360 Both of those would view doctors objecting to performing or referring for abortion as

00:15:42.040 impeding a woman's access to abortion.

00:15:44.760 And so in that way, they would not allow a physician to refuse to perform a referrer.

00:15:51.700 And, you know, I think in my experience and in talking to colleagues, I think sometimes

00:15:55.920 people don't understand, well, if you won't do it, that's fine.

00:15:57.900 Why wouldn't you just refer?

00:15:59.840 Well, think about any other procedure that you would know to be harmful to either of

00:16:05.660 your patients.

00:16:06.140 I think it's important to point out as an OB-GYN, I'm taking care of two patients, not just that

00:16:11.240 woman sitting in front of me, but I'm also taking care of her unborn child. 1.00

00:16:14.520 So, you know, I know that an induced abortion is going to violently end the life of that child, 0.99

00:16:20.320 but I also know that that induced abortion is going to potentially carry all of these risks

00:16:25.200 to my maternal patient as well.

00:16:26.940 So I can't in good conscience refer, even refer my patient to a physician who I know is going

00:16:34.360 to do a harmful procedure.

00:16:36.380 I wouldn't do that in any other situation.

00:16:38.300 And I certainly wouldn't do it for induced abortion.

00:16:41.960 And, you know, when we look at conscience rights, it's not enough for us to just have

00:16:47.560 religious protection in this country because there are people, physicians, there are people

00:16:53.480 in our organization who aren't opposed to abortion based on any religious grounds.

00:16:58.300 They're opposed to abortion because it ends the life, intentionally ends the life of a

00:17:02.900 human being.

00:17:03.540 And because as a physician, they've taken an oath not to do that.

00:17:06.880 And so having explicit conscience protections are extremely important.

00:17:13.060 But, you know, Ali, to go back to this kind of links with that previous question that you

00:17:16.860 asked, this wasn't necessarily specific to ACOG.

00:17:19.060 But there was an article that came out, I believe it was in 2017, from Ezekiel Emanuel,

00:17:25.340 who was one of the architects of the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare, who also has been a very

00:17:30.940 vocal proponent of physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia.

00:17:35.660 And it was an article about conscientious objection and how it's different for physicians.

00:17:42.100 Their position was that it's different for physicians than it is for, say, people in the

00:17:47.140 military because we are not conscripted into being physicians, but we have freely chosen

00:17:52.500 to go into this profession.

00:17:54.280 And so their position was that because we have chosen to go into this profession, we should

00:17:59.980 not have the right to abstain from any procedure or, quote unquote, treatment that has been deemed

00:18:06.920 as standard of care in the medical profession.

00:18:09.420 And they used ACOG as an example of an organization that is doing it right, in their opinion, as

00:18:16.020 far as discouraging conscientious conscience rights.

00:18:19.380 And they actually said at the end of the article that if someone had an objection to a procedure

00:18:25.780 that was standard of care, such as abortion, that they should either consider going into a

00:18:31.340 field like radiology or getting out of the profession altogether.

00:18:34.840 So these are our, quote unquote, thought leaders in medicine.

00:18:38.640 I mean, that is frightening if you think about that.

00:18:41.240 And so that's why I think it's so important that organizations like APLOG exist to continue

00:18:45.760 to defend our right to practice life-affirming medicine that we know our patients actually

00:18:49.840 want.

00:18:50.540 Yeah.

00:18:50.880 I mean, it just seems so obvious to me that I would want a doctor who sees the innate

00:18:54.920 dignity of my baby.

00:18:57.020 Not one who decides whether or not they care about my baby based on whether I want him or

00:19:03.520 her, but based on the fact that this is a human being, it seems to me like I and my baby would

00:19:09.480 get better and more compassionate care.

00:19:12.020 But of course, they are asking doctors, demanding doctors live in this very dissonant, duplicitous

00:19:18.820 world where on the one hand, you care for babies when the baby is wanted.

00:19:23.020 But if the baby is not wanted, all of a sudden, it's only a fetus.

00:19:26.480 And it has no rights and has no value.

00:19:31.620 And some people can live in that hypocritical world.

00:19:35.520 A lot of people do.

00:19:37.180 But those who don't want to are being punished.

00:19:39.500 And that's very scary.

00:19:41.500 There's so much disinformation out there.

00:19:43.900 As you know, I'm sure it just bothers you so much as an OBGYN who knows the medicine,

00:19:50.040 who knows the science better than most people behind what goes on in the womb, what goes on

00:19:54.720 and an abortion, there was recently a story about a young woman in Georgia named Amber

00:20:00.080 Thurman.

00:20:00.720 And she was a mother of a six-year-old boy, but she had gotten pregnant with twins.

00:20:05.220 And she went to North Carolina to get an abortion because it was after the point where it was 1.00

00:20:12.380 legal in Georgia.

00:20:13.440 And she missed her appointment, so they gave her some abortion pills. 0.57

00:20:17.040 Well, she went to the ER with heavy bleeding and signs of an infection. 1.00

00:20:21.880 And basically, they gave her antibiotics and a DNC way too late, and she ended up dying,

00:20:27.740 which is tragic all around.

00:20:29.280 We've got three people who died unnecessarily in this situation.

00:20:33.480 Kamala Harris, the media, activists are all telling us this is because of Georgia's abortion

00:20:38.900 ban.

00:20:39.600 This is because of pro-life laws.

00:20:42.360 Can you break down this story for us, how you are seeing this as an OBGYN, and help us

00:20:47.880 sift through the myths versus the facts?

00:20:50.500 Absolutely.

00:20:52.860 You know, I agree with you.

00:20:54.200 This is such a tragic situation.

00:20:57.260 And it's one that could have been avoided sort of in many steps along the path.

00:21:03.820 So just to sort of tell your listeners how I look at it as an OBGYN, granted, I have not

00:21:10.600 seen Ms. Thurman's actual medical record.

00:21:12.840 So my analysis of this is based on what was published in the article that came out last week

00:21:18.560 about her death, but they actually gave quite a few details.

00:21:22.120 And so I think that we can actually draw very different conclusions than what the media and

00:21:27.160 politicians are drawing from that.

00:21:28.800 So as you said, she found herself in a situation where she wasn't ready to be pregnant, which 0.99

00:21:35.100 I know that so many women do. 1.00

00:21:37.060 And out of desperation, I'm sure she drove to North Carolina.

00:21:40.620 One of the first things that stood out to me actually was that she had planned on a surgical

00:21:44.680 abortion.

00:21:45.180 As you said, she was pregnant with twins, which would increase her risk, some of complications

00:21:50.560 from abortion drugs.

00:21:52.420 But because she got delayed by traffic, it said that the abortion facility could not hold her

00:21:56.800 appointment for longer than 15 minutes.

00:21:59.000 And so instead, a clinic employee offered her the abortion drugs. 1.00

00:22:04.800 To me, that was the first red flag.

00:22:06.980 Where was the physician?

00:22:08.320 Where was the person who could truly give her informed consent about the risks of those drugs?

00:22:14.100 And so she took the first pill, mifepristone, there, it sounds like, and then drove home to

00:22:19.080 Georgia and took the second pill, mesoprostol, which would put her into labor then. 0.98

00:22:24.220 And then over several days, it sounds like she suffered at home from horrible pain, bleeding,

00:22:30.880 and then began vomiting blood, and then went into her emergency room. 0.92

00:22:34.900 And again, from what's reported, when she presented, she had heavy bleeding.

00:22:39.760 She had a foul-smelling discharge.

00:22:41.980 An ultrasound showed that there were still fetal tissue inside of her uterus, so she had

00:22:46.980 not passed everything.

00:22:49.080 She hadn't passed all of the babies, and she hadn't passed all of the placenta.

00:22:52.360 And it said that she had dangerously low blood pressure and an elevated white blood cell count,

00:22:59.060 which tells a physician that she's got an infection, most likely a bacterial infection.

00:23:04.300 And the low blood pressure would be a potential sign of early sepsis.

00:23:08.720 And so, you know, we said in our response to this on social media, a first-year OB resident

00:23:14.040 should have been able to make that diagnosis, especially if they knew that she had taken

00:23:18.740 those abortion drugs, the standard of care for her treatment in that situation would be 1.00

00:23:24.680 immediate initiation of IV antibiotics and a DNC procedure, dilation and curatage, where

00:23:31.420 it's a surgical procedure to empty the uterus of what is left in there. 0.98

00:23:35.880 That's the only way that you can get an infection like this under control.

00:23:39.480 You cannot control it with antibiotics alone.

00:23:42.200 And again, every competent OB-GYN should know that.

00:23:46.640 It's, as you said, it's being blamed on Georgia's law that that DNC was not done immediately.

00:23:51.740 However, there's a few important things to point out.

00:23:53.960 One, it sounds like the doctors who took care of her are not actually blaming Georgia's law.

00:23:59.120 The panel of medical experts that determined that her death was preventable, which I agree

00:24:04.060 with 100%, and due to the delay in the DNC, also agree with that.

00:24:09.040 But they aren't saying that it was Georgia's law that led to the delay.

00:24:12.580 They haven't said what led to the delay.

00:24:15.600 Pro Publica, though, the media and politicians are the one that's saying it's due to Georgia's law.

00:24:20.800 But also, Georgia's law would not have applied to Amber Thurman for two reasons. 0.98

00:24:26.680 First of all, again, per what we have available in the article, her babies were not alive when

00:24:32.740 she presented to the emergency room.

00:24:34.500 And Georgia's law clearly states that it does not apply in situations where a fetal demise

00:24:40.320 or the babies have already passed has already happened.

00:24:43.800 Second of all, that septic incomplete abortion, which would have been the diagnosis that she 0.83

00:24:48.240 should have been given, that is a life-threatening infection.

00:24:52.460 Georgia's law has clear medical exceptions when women are facing life-threatening complications

00:24:56.700 that the doctors could have intervened immediately.

00:24:59.880 So we need to be pointing fingers at the right things.

00:25:03.380 We need to be pointing fingers at these abortion drugs, which we know cause these kind of 0.98

00:25:07.760 complications.

00:25:08.580 Infection is the leading cause of death from the abortion drug mifepristone.

00:25:12.680 And in fact, over 30 women have died in the U.S. now that we know of since taking these

00:25:19.460 drugs.

00:25:20.020 And again, the vast majority of them are due to infection.

00:25:24.080 Also, I think we need to be pointing fingers at, you know, somebody should be doing an investigation

00:25:28.800 into what happened when she went into the hospital.

00:25:30.960 Why did these physicians delay care?

00:25:33.520 I don't know.

00:25:34.520 But an investigation needs to be done and should be done in order to bring justice to

00:25:39.000 her family.

00:25:39.580 But I just think that these stories, Amber's and the other story that we heard of Candy

00:25:44.600 Miller last week, highlight the dangers of this drug that now, because of what the FDA

00:25:49.380 has done in removing any in-person visit requirement, now these drugs can be obtained online with

00:25:55.680 no evaluation for how far along a woman is in her pregnancy, no evaluation for an ectopic

00:26:01.200 pregnancy, which is life-threatening, no evaluation for coercion.

00:26:05.040 Is she being pressured into this abortion? 0.99

00:26:07.020 It really is medical malpractice the way that these drugs are being used.

00:26:10.920 And it is dangerous for women that politicians and the media are trying to blame abortions, 1.00

00:26:17.120 or I'm sorry, Georgia's abortion law, instead of putting the blame where it belongs, which 0.98

00:26:20.740 is on these drugs.

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00:27:14.500 You mentioned Candy Miller.

00:27:20.660 We haven't talked about her yet on our show, but this was also a story that was published

00:27:25.960 by ProPublica, and the title is Afraid to Seek Care Amid Georgia's Abortion Ban.

00:27:31.280 She stayed at home and died.

00:27:33.740 So she found out that she was pregnant in 2022.

00:27:36.680 She didn't want to be pregnant anymore. 0.99

00:27:38.620 She took abortion pills by mail, and she became bedridden and in pain for days.

00:27:44.180 After, and then on November 12th, her husband found her unresponsive in bed.

00:27:49.460 After she died, an autopsy found unexpelled fetal tissue, confirming that the abortion had

00:27:53.980 not fully completed.

00:27:55.620 It also found a lethal combination of painkillers, including the dangerous opioid fentanyl.

00:28:00.900 Her family later told a coroner she hadn't visited a doctor due to the current legislation

00:28:05.740 on pregnancies and abortions.

00:28:09.840 But it's not really the laws that killed her.

00:28:13.320 It's these abortion pills that are allowed to be taken without the direction of a doctor,

00:28:19.620 which, of course, as you mentioned, the abortion lobby, including ACOG, has really pushed hard for.

00:28:26.740 Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:29.560 There, you know, there's so many sort of tragic parts of this story and points at which if she

00:28:37.080 had just seen a physician, maybe something would have turned out differently.

00:28:41.800 So you're exactly right.

00:28:43.080 You know, the FDA in 2021, as I said, removed that in-person dispensing requirement for

00:28:48.900 mifepristone, allowing these drugs to be dispensed online.

00:28:51.880 And I think many people think that, oh, well, that means that a woman still at least has 0.78

00:28:56.960 a telehealth appointment with a physician who evaluates her before she gets these drugs.

00:29:01.640 That's simply not true.

00:29:03.080 Many of these sites, women can just go on and fill out a form, and then they get the drugs 1.00

00:29:07.040 shipped to them.

00:29:08.200 It says that she got hers from Aid Access, which sends these pills from another country.

00:29:13.140 There's no control over what might be in those drugs.

00:29:16.220 And of course, they tragically end the life of her unborn child, which is the first thing

00:29:22.960 that's wrong with this scenario.

00:29:24.640 But also, what kind of care is that for a woman? 1.00

00:29:27.360 What kind of medical care?

00:29:28.580 And the story says that she either thought or had been told, that's not very clear, that

00:29:34.240 she could not have a pregnancy because of some medical conditions, significant ones like

00:29:39.640 lupus and high blood pressure and diabetes.

00:29:42.320 And those things oftentimes can be actually successfully managed through pregnancy.

00:29:48.560 So why was she not told or why didn't she see a high-risk obstetrician who could have

00:29:53.920 talked to her about the risks of pregnancy with her specific conditions?

00:29:58.840 But also, why is she allowed to get these drugs online with no medical supervision when 1.00

00:30:04.140 she has that many high-risk medical conditions? 0.99

00:30:07.120 This is not appropriate care for women. 1.00

00:30:10.220 In fact, it is, I would say, frank medical malpractice.

00:30:14.520 And then it says that she stayed at home and didn't seek attention after, I think the story

00:30:19.700 says her son heard her moaning and pain in her bed.

00:30:24.880 You know, many times, I'm sure you've heard this as well.

00:30:27.460 We know that women are told, oh, they're as safe as Tylenol.

00:30:31.500 It's just going to be like a heavy period.

00:30:33.600 That's it.

00:30:34.500 That is not what I have had women tell me who have been through a chemical abortion.

00:30:39.340 And that's certainly not what it sounded like from the story of what Candy went through.

00:30:45.320 And then, you know, I would say that Candy's death in particular is a direct example of

00:30:51.680 how the lies and misinformation that are being spread about these laws led directly to someone's

00:30:58.480 death.

00:30:58.840 Somehow, Candy had heard that either she wasn't going to be able to get the treatment that

00:31:03.840 she needed because she had started the abortion process, or that maybe she was afraid that

00:31:09.660 she might be prosecuted because of having taken these abortion drugs, when in fact, Georgia's 1.00

00:31:15.100 law and no other pro-life law in the country criminalizes women for, you know, starting the 1.00

00:31:21.680 abortion process.

00:31:22.440 And so she was afraid to go in because of lies that had been told to her, maybe through

00:31:28.120 the media, maybe through somebody else.

00:31:30.600 And so she didn't go in and seek care and she died at home.

00:31:35.000 And whether or not she died is a direct complication of the abortion drugs.

00:31:39.500 I mean, as you said, they said the coroner's report said that she had an incomplete abortion.

00:31:44.180 So we know that she at least had that complication.

00:31:46.720 Um, and it also said that she had fentanyl in her system.

00:31:50.860 Maybe it was the fentanyl that led to her death, but that still should raise questions.

00:31:55.680 Why was she taking fentanyl to get rid of this intense pain that she was in?

00:32:00.160 If she had an actual patient physician relationship, which is what the, you know, the pro-abortion

00:32:05.720 side is always crying.

00:32:07.180 We have to keep the government out of the patient physician relationship.

00:32:10.920 Where was her patient physician relationship when she got these drugs online?

00:32:15.060 That's what I want to know.

00:32:16.720 And if she had one, she would have had a doctor that she could go to to say, you know, I'm

00:32:21.320 experiencing really intense pain.

00:32:23.120 I don't know if this is normal or if it is, can I at least have some medication to help

00:32:27.180 with that?

00:32:28.060 Instead, she took a very dangerous drug that could have led to her death.

00:32:32.180 But again, the thing that started this entire cascade of events were those abortion drugs.

00:32:39.100 It was not Georgia's law.

00:32:40.720 Yeah, you raise a really good point about the disinformation campaign that we've seen that

00:32:47.340 has stoked a lot of fear, a lot of paranoia among, I assume, hospital, you know, the hospital

00:32:56.220 staff, doctors and nurses, but also among women.

00:32:59.960 It's not the fault of this pro-life law.

00:33:02.300 It's that unfortunately she had been told by activists, by politicians that if you get an

00:33:09.960 abortion in the state of Georgia, you will go to jail.

00:33:13.660 And maybe she sincerely believed that.

00:33:16.580 But all of this is the fault, as you said, of the abortion lobby who has pushed so hard

00:33:22.860 for who has pushed so hard for these mail order abortion pills, who actively lobbies against

00:33:30.660 true informed consent, and as you said, true care for these moms and their babies. 0.79

00:33:38.040 Something that we hear so often is that, well, you know, these pro-choice laws or the pro-choice

00:33:46.900 legislation, legislation that would allow access to abortion, even if it's through all nine months,

00:33:53.920 what we're trying to protect is a woman's right to access miscarriage care. 1.00

00:34:00.400 This is something I've seen since the overturning of Roe v. Wade over and over again.

00:34:05.160 And even pro-lifers get duped by this, that you have to be pro-choice.

00:34:09.400 You have to be against pro-life law legislation if you want women to be able to access miscarriage 0.98

00:34:16.220 care.

00:34:16.460 There are people who truly believe that a DNC after a miscarriage is the same thing as

00:34:23.300 a DNC during abortion and that pro-life states like Arkansas or Texas or Georgia have outlawed

00:34:30.660 DNCs in the case of even spontaneous miscarriages.

00:34:35.660 So can you can you speak to that at all?

00:34:39.940 There's a lot of confusion there.

00:34:42.220 Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:43.180 I completely agree.

00:34:44.380 And I think that this is really nefarious on the part of the abortion lobby.

00:34:49.020 You know, their true goal is to have elective induced abortion with no restrictions whatsoever. 1.00

00:34:55.520 But they know that that's not popular with the American people.

00:35:00.660 And so they know that using fear tactics like saying that miscarriage care is under threat

00:35:05.700 will work.

00:35:06.500 And as you said, it has.

00:35:08.200 I think there's a few different things to be said to sort of help clear up the confusion.

00:35:12.280 First of all, I actually think it's harmful to women who have experienced miscarriage to

00:35:18.240 equate that with an induced abortion.

00:35:20.840 They are completely different.

00:35:22.840 Even the CDC defines induced abortion as a procedure or treatment given to end a pregnancy

00:35:29.840 with the intent to not produce a live birth.

00:35:34.300 So they acknowledge that the intent is to end the life of that fetal human being.

00:35:39.700 Of course, that's not what's going on with a miscarriage.

00:35:42.220 With a miscarriage, that pre-born child has already passed away spontaneously with with

00:35:47.000 no interventions.

00:35:49.140 And actually, the CDC definition of induced abortion explicitly says that it excludes miscarriage

00:35:55.440 management, management of ectopic pregnancy or removal of retained products of conception

00:36:00.740 after an induced abortion.

00:36:02.440 So even the CDC understands that a miscarriage is not the same thing as an induced abortion.

00:36:10.480 Also, all of the state laws that we're talking about explicitly exclude miscarriage.

00:36:15.920 They say this law does not even apply in that case.

00:36:20.320 Now, I think where people get confused is, yes, the same kind of procedure, a DNC procedure

00:36:26.100 can be used to treat a miscarriage or it can be used to perform an induced abortion.

00:36:30.720 But DNCs in and of themselves are not outlawed anywhere in the country.

00:36:36.540 The only thing that is outlawed in pro-life states are DNCs with the intent to end the life 0.88

00:36:43.000 of an unborn child who is living at the time of the procedure.

00:36:47.100 And so that is very, very important for people to understand.

00:36:51.240 Doctors like me can still do miscarriage treatment. 1.00

00:36:53.780 Whatever kind of miscarriage treatment we need to do for our patients in every state in the

00:36:59.560 country without delay.

00:37:00.780 We don't have to fear being penalized by the law.

00:37:05.100 And women should not fear going to seek treatment for any of these conditions at any hospital

00:37:11.280 in any state in this country.

00:37:13.100 And another way that I know that, you know, before the Dobbs decision, doctors inherently

00:37:18.680 understood the difference between an induced abortion, which is what is outlawed in some

00:37:23.560 of some states, and miscarriage treatment, ectopic treatment, et cetera, is that there were

00:37:29.240 three surveys done in the few years before Dobbs that asked OBGYNs whether or not they performed

00:37:35.440 induced abortions either as part of their practice or in the last year.

00:37:39.840 Of those three surveys, all of them showed that the vast majority of OBs did not do induced

00:37:45.440 abortions. 0.94

00:37:46.080 76 to 93 percent said they did not do induced abortions.

00:37:51.120 I guarantee you that 100 percent or nearly 100 percent of them were treating miscarriage.

00:37:56.960 They were treating ectopic pregnancy, et cetera.

00:37:59.800 They understood.

00:38:00.700 They didn't have to be explained.

00:38:01.880 They just were asked, do you do induced abortions?

00:38:04.640 And the vast majority of them said no.

00:38:06.960 They understood.

00:38:07.880 The only confusion that is being created right now after Roe was overturned and the state

00:38:13.660 laws went into effect is because of intentional lies and misinformation that are being spread,

00:38:18.740 as you said, by the abortion lobby, by media and by politicians that are leading to very

00:38:24.500 real world consequences for our patients.

00:38:27.400 And I think they're leading to, as you said, many people who would consider that consider

00:38:32.080 themselves pro-life voting for some of these radical pro-abortion ballot initiatives, constitutional

00:38:38.500 amendments that we're seeing in states.

00:38:40.640 And so it's very important for people to understand not only so that they can seek appropriate care,

00:38:45.440 but also before they go to the ballot box this year, if they're a state that has one of these

00:38:51.080 ballot initiatives on their ballot this year.

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00:39:52.180 Do you think that these stories of women who say they went to the ER, they were having

00:39:59.820 a spontaneous miscarriage and the doctors refused to treat them until they were on the

00:40:06.280 brink of death.

00:40:07.000 They had to get to a certain level before the doctor decided, OK, we're going to treat this

00:40:11.640 ectopic pregnancy or we're going to treat this miscarriage. 1.00

00:40:15.380 If that is really happening, do you think that there are doctors and nurses legitimately

00:40:21.400 confused and afraid or do you think there's something more sinister going on?

00:40:28.340 You know, I've thought a lot about that question, actually, because, you know, as a physician who

00:40:33.180 cares so deeply about my patients, even if I was legitimately facing a potential legal penalty

00:40:41.340 for intervening and treating a patient in front of me who needed treatment, honestly, I my

00:40:47.960 oath, my care for my patients would compel me to care for that patient regardless.

00:40:52.280 So it's very, very difficult for me to understand why someone would withhold treatment when it's

00:40:59.200 clearly indicated.

00:41:00.040 I think that it is likely a combination of a number of factors.

00:41:05.140 I think that there are a lot of physicians who just in the past, before Roe was overturned,

00:41:11.260 honestly, didn't even really have to put much thought into this issue.

00:41:15.720 And now that they do, because the national conversation is different and our laws and our

00:41:20.860 states are now different, I think that they are confused and they're relying, they rely

00:41:26.020 appropriately on the medical bodies, on their hospital attorneys, on their state medical

00:41:31.540 boards and medical associations to provide appropriate guidance about every law that impacts

00:41:37.060 our practice of medicine, including these pro-life laws.

00:41:40.860 And unfortunately, what we're seeing is a conspicuous silence on the part of organizations

00:41:46.760 like ACOG, they don't have to agree with these state laws, but they should have a vested interest

00:41:52.060 in ensuring that physicians know that they can intervene in order, you know, quickly in

00:41:57.520 order to prevent tragedies like what we've heard this past week from happening.

00:42:02.140 And yet they're not.

00:42:03.380 They're completely silent.

00:42:04.920 APOG is really the only professional organization who is stepping into that gap and providing education

00:42:10.740 to ensure that physicians intervene immediately because no state law requires immediacy.

00:42:16.760 No state law requires that a woman be actively dying before a physician intervene.

00:42:21.860 They can intervene immediately when they make a diagnosis that this could be life-threatening

00:42:26.040 if we let it progress.

00:42:27.980 And so it's important that physicians understand that.

00:42:30.080 So I do think that the vast majority of physicians who report confusion probably are confused, but because

00:42:36.820 of misinformation that they've heard or just because of a complete lack of information.

00:42:42.060 And I think it's important for people to remember physicians are people just like everybody else.

00:42:46.300 We watch the news, we're on social media, all of that.

00:42:49.220 And so, you know, physicians can be influenced by these lies just the same as anyone else.

00:42:54.760 There have definitely been some reports that certainly make you wonder if people are intentionally

00:43:01.520 withholding treatment.

00:43:02.760 I would hope not.

00:43:04.000 We took an oath to take care of our patients and that is what we must do as physicians.

00:43:09.600 And so if that is happening, that needs to stop immediately.

00:43:14.120 And I also worry that maybe there are cases of medical negligence.

00:43:18.700 Just frank, you know, physicians make mistakes.

00:43:21.400 Sometimes they don't intervene when they need to intervene, even outside of the context of,

00:43:26.120 you know, whether or not this is impacted by abortion laws.

00:43:29.040 And now there's an easy scapegoat of pro-life laws in states where this is happening.

00:43:34.380 And so I think it's probably a combination of all of those things.

00:43:39.020 You know, the one thing that we can do as an organization to impact that, again, is education,

00:43:44.680 helping physicians to understand that, look, this is the way so many of us, thousands of

00:43:50.780 us, all of those of us who are in APLOG have practiced our entire careers.

00:43:55.280 This is not impossible to practice in this way and take good care of patients and ensure

00:44:00.540 that women receive the care that they need.

00:44:02.220 Yeah, I mean, doctors have always had to navigate some kinds of restrictions and regulations

00:44:07.520 surrounding abortion, especially in some states.

00:44:10.300 And so I just think this idea that all of a sudden they are completely dumbfounded, they're

00:44:15.140 completely confused about how to navigate laws, what the limits are, I just find that hard

00:44:21.080 to believe.

00:44:21.720 But I think that your point about the silence of ACOG is such a good one, because whether

00:44:27.120 or not they like these pro-life laws, they do have a responsibility to their physicians

00:44:31.720 and to the physicians' patients to bring as much clarity as possible.

00:44:36.080 And it seems like a maliciously intentional choice to withhold that clarity and say, no,

00:44:44.840 we just want more abortion. 1.00

00:44:47.180 And that's, I mean, that's a darn shame.

00:44:48.980 That's what ideological capture does.

00:44:50.740 Something else that we hear a lot is, well, we've got to be pro-abortion because of the 0.55

00:44:57.200 woman who needs an abortion, who needs an abortion to save her life, or because she has some serious

00:45:05.240 health issue.

00:45:06.060 Or sometimes you hear late-term abortions only happen when there is a fetal anomaly.

00:45:11.620 What's your response when you hear that?

00:45:13.160 Well, so a couple of things.

00:45:16.440 First off, you know, there are definitely times in medicine and in the practice of OB that we have

00:45:21.580 to do what APLOG calls, because I think it's more accurate, a maternal-fetal separation.

00:45:26.760 So there are times when we need to separate mom and baby because mom is facing a life-threatening

00:45:32.560 complication.

00:45:34.020 Thankfully, the vast majority of the time that happens after the point of fetal viability where

00:45:39.080 baby can survive outside of mom. 1.00

00:45:41.640 So when you're after that point, there is no question.

00:45:45.320 You simply deliver mom.

00:45:47.200 You either do a normal delivery or you do a C-section, and you take care of mom and you

00:45:52.000 take care of baby.

00:45:53.200 It's important to point out that a delivery in that scenario after the point of viability

00:45:57.840 when you're that far along in pregnancy is actually much faster than an abortion procedure.

00:46:03.120 Abortion procedures in the late second and third trimester actually take several days.

00:46:07.980 If mom is facing a life-threatening complication, she doesn't have several days.

00:46:12.420 And so it is completely disingenuous.

00:46:14.940 It's a lie to say that late-term abortions are needed in order to save the life of women. 0.99

00:46:21.040 We do deliveries in that situation.

00:46:23.560 Even at a pre-viable point in pregnancy, we can oftentimes do a delivery that delivers mom

00:46:31.560 an intact baby that the family can hold and grieve over.

00:46:35.880 But again, intent is extremely important when we're looking at that because our intent in

00:46:41.500 doing that early delivery is not to end the life of that child.

00:46:44.800 And if medicine advances to the point that we can continue to resuscitate and support babies

00:46:51.660 at earlier and earlier gestational ages, then that's exactly what we'll do.

00:46:55.740 But our intent in that intervention is to save the life of mom.

00:46:59.760 And so those of us who are pro-life have no qualms doing that when it's clearly indicated.

00:47:05.060 Of course, it's very sad.

00:47:06.540 And you know that it's going to lead to the death of that child.

00:47:09.960 But that's not your intent in the procedure.

00:47:12.400 And as someone who's had to sit on the edge of my patient's bed with them and have that

00:47:17.180 very difficult conversation, I can say that, yes, it happens.

00:47:21.760 But I can also say that we can do it in a way that respects the dignity of both mom and baby.

00:47:27.640 It's also a lie to say that the vast majority of abortions done in the second and third trimester

00:47:33.360 are for those conditions.

00:47:35.740 We know that actually the vast majority of abortions that occur per Guttmacher, this is

00:47:40.540 not per pro-life researchers, are actually the same reasons why women seek abortions in 1.00

00:47:45.140 the first trimester, which are largely socioeconomic or pressure from their family or those around

00:47:52.440 them. Warren Hearn, of course, a famous late term abortionist in Colorado, was featured in the

00:48:00.260 Atlantic bragging about the fact that he does abortions on healthy women and healthy babies well into the

00:48:07.500 third trimester. I think in that article he said 34 to 35 weeks. But I recently came across a study that he

00:48:14.900 had published looking at second and third trimester abortions where he reported doing abortions up to

00:48:20.220 39 weeks. That's a week before someone's due date. And again, he says the vast majority of the

00:48:26.760 abortions he does are for healthy women and healthy babies and that he believes that women should be

00:48:33.260 able to have abortions in the third trimester for any reason they want to. So people need to

00:48:38.360 understand that this is happening even now. It was happening before the Dobbs decision and it continues

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00:49:34.900 I think people just don't want to reckon with that reality because it's so barbaric and it's just so sad.

00:49:42.920 But you're right. And the idea that women have to have abortions when there's a fetal anomaly or that

00:49:50.600 it's, I've heard very often from the media that it's cruel to allow a baby with say trisomy 18 or

00:49:57.920 trisomy 13 to be born at 36 weeks or whenever he or she needs to be delivered, that the more merciful

00:50:06.080 option is to abort that child. But again, I mean, you're looking at a procedure that is much riskier for

00:50:12.820 the mom if it's post 20 weeks and takes a long time and also disregards the dignity of that child. 1.00

00:50:20.360 I mean, that child can be delivered and held and loved and buried, but an abortion of a child with 0.88

00:50:27.200 some kind of fetal anomaly, they don't get that honor. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, there's so many

00:50:34.320 things that are wrong with how this is portrayed, I think, to the public and to women in this

00:50:41.380 particular situation. You know, first off, people hear, oh, a lethal fetal anomaly or some version

00:50:48.300 of that. I like saying a life-limiting prenatal diagnosis because it may limit the life of that

00:50:53.560 child, but it doesn't mean that that child doesn't have a life. But also it's important for people to

00:50:59.260 know that there's actually no consensus within the medical community of what qualifies for a life

00:51:04.880 limiting diagnosis. So there are some conditions that there's a 40 to 50% survival rate for babies

00:51:11.160 that are considered life limiting or lethal diagnoses. So there is a definite chance with

00:51:17.800 many of these conditions that baby can survive. And even with treatment, have several years on this

00:51:24.400 earth. Of course, who are we to judge someone's quality of life? You know, as you said, we need

00:51:29.800 to respect the dignity of all lives, regardless of their level of ability. The other thing that this

00:51:35.360 ignores is that we could be wrong about the diagnosis. And if we intervene as physicians and,

00:51:42.300 you know, violently end the life of that child, who, by the way, can feel pain from that abortion is not

00:51:49.040 feeling pain from their disability if they have one. But if we intervene prematurely, we get rid of

00:51:55.700 the possibility that we could be wrong about that diagnosis. What if that child doesn't have that

00:52:00.940 diagnosis and they could actually survive? The other thing that that ignores is the real benefit of

00:52:07.020 something called perinatal palliative care or perinatal hospice. This is a loving and compassionate

00:52:12.460 option for families whose child has been given a diagnosis that we expect to be severely

00:52:18.820 life-limiting, where their child is valued throughout the pregnancy, where they can come up with a

00:52:23.760 delivery plan, where they can have the, you know, the time that mom is pregnant with that baby is the 0.56

00:52:29.680 only time sometimes, depending on the condition that that family is going to have with their child.

00:52:34.900 And so it helps maximize the value in that for that family and give them all the support that they

00:52:40.320 need so that they can walk through the natural grieving process rather than cutting it short and rather

00:52:46.780 than feeling agency in their own child's death. You know, I can tell you from talking to a patient who

00:52:52.820 went through an abortion for an adverse diagnosis that afterwards found out about the availability of 0.96

00:52:59.540 perinatal hospice, hadn't known about that before. And she really was struggling with depression

00:53:05.780 from feeling that she had participated in her child's death as opposed to her child dying of natural

00:53:12.560 causes. So there's so many more, um, uh, benefits to offering patients, uh, perinatal palliative care,

00:53:20.280 or at the very least helping them understand that this is their child. We could be wrong about the

00:53:25.120 diagnosis, but even if we're not, this is still their child who has dignity and worth. And one last

00:53:30.520 thing I'll say is, um, we did after the Kate Cox story came out about, um, you know, her being pregnant

00:53:36.680 with a child with trisomy 18. APLUG actually did a webinar about trisomy 18 and actually how many of

00:53:43.200 these children can live, um, even into their teens, early twenties with appropriate medical care. Shocker,

00:53:50.040 if we give these children medical care, they actually survive, um, a decent portion of the time.

00:53:55.900 But one of the best parts about that webinar was we had a family on with us with their daughter,

00:54:01.240 Hope, who, um, is in her teens. And it was just so amazing to see them interact with her. She got

00:54:08.500 on with us and she interacted with us. And I loved one thing that they said was that our daughter is

00:54:14.040 not a fetus and she's not a diagnosis. She's our daughter. And they wanted people to understand that

00:54:19.400 and understand her value and understand that with appropriate treatment, many of these children can

00:54:23.860 actually survive and bring so much joy to their families. Um, so, you know, to me, that's the kind of

00:54:29.240 care that women and families deserve. They don't deserve to be told, Oh, all we have to offer you

00:54:34.940 is either an abortion or there's nothing else we can do for you. That's not a choice and it's not

00:54:39.000 compassion. Dr. Francis, thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you do and how you lead this

00:54:45.140 organization for the clarity that you are trying to give physicians to help moms and babies, because

00:54:51.240 we want to create a culture of life and you guys are helping make that possible. And I just appreciate

00:54:57.760 you so much. Uh, where can people find out more about you, your organization? How can they get

00:55:03.740 involved? Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Allie, so much for what you do to defend women and children

00:55:10.520 and promote that culture of life. That is so important. If people want to find out more about

00:55:14.780 APLOG, first of all, if you're a medical professional and you're listening to this, you don't have to be an

00:55:18.920 OBGYN. We welcome you to join us. You can go to our website. That's AAPLOG.org. We also have plenty of

00:55:27.880 resources on the website for the general public, including a directory where you can look up whether

00:55:33.040 there's a pro-life physician in your area if they've chosen to be listed publicly. And that is certainly a

00:55:38.840 good resource for the public. And then we're also on social media. You can follow us on Instagram,

00:55:44.100 Facebook, LinkedIn, X. Um, so we'd welcome you to follow us on that as we put out, um, again,

00:55:50.720 accurate information about the effects of abortion on women and about what constitute actual women's

00:55:56.180 healthcare. Thank you so much, Dr. Francis. Thank you so much.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 26, 2024

Ep 1074 ｜ OBGYN Busts Myths on Miscarriages & Late-Term Abortions ｜ Guest： Dr. Christina Francis

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