Ep 1074 ｜ OBGYN Busts Myths on Miscarriages & Late-Term Abortions ｜ Guest： Dr. Christina Francis
Episode Stats
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Summary
Dr. Christina Francis is the CEO of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and Gynecologists and she is here to tell us the truth about the disinformation that we are seeing in the media about abortions and miscarriages. She knows more than most about what goes into these abortion procedures, and she s going to help us separate myth from fact.
Transcript
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Dr. Christina Francis is the CEO of the American Association of Pro-Life Obstetricians and
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Gynecologists, and she is here today to tell us the truth about the disinformation that
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we are seeing in the media about abortions and miscarriages, what is really going on
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She knows more than most about what goes into these abortion procedures, and she is going
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When it comes to these stories, this is an episode you want to share with your friends
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They need to hear it from an expert like Dr. Francis.
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Dr. Francis, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
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Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?
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I practice actually as an OB hospitalist in Northeastern Indiana, and I'm also CEO of APLOG,
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We're a professional medical organization with over 7,000 members across the country of medical
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professionals, not just OB-GYNs, really many specialties who practice life-affirming medicine.
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And would you say that in the OB-GYN world, it is a minority position to be pro-life?
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Well, you know, that's an interesting question.
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I think that we might be a little bit of a silent either majority or sort of in the middle.
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Well, you know, the surveys actually tell us that 76 to 93 percent of OB-GYNs don't perform
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So we know that the vast majority of OBs don't do abortions.
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I don't think that necessarily means that all of those that don't do them are pro-life.
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But we know from talking to many of our members and even just colleagues of mine that there
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are a lot of OBs out there who are actually pro-life or at least feel some level of discomfort
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But with our current sort of medical practice environment, it's really difficult for people
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to speak up about their pro-life beliefs or their pro-life values, unfortunately.
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Because even if it's not a minority view or as minority as we are led to believe in the
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OB-GYN world, you clearly felt like you guys needed to kind of band together and be
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Well, so our organization started actually 51 years ago in 1973.
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It was started actually within the American College of OB-GYNs or ACOG, which is the country's
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I'm sure that you're aware of them and their position on abortion.
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But, you know, they used to be actually relatively neutral on the issue of abortion until the late
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60s, early 70s, when the leadership started to become much more pro-abortion.
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And they then filed pro-abortion amicus briefs in both the Roe and the Doe cases.
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And when they did that, many of the members within ACOG who were pro-life decided it was
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time to start a pro-life special interest group to show that many OB-GYNs did not support this
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And so we were started as a special interest group and quickly became their largest special
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And then in 2013, ACOG dissolved the title of special interest group completely, which
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We then launched as our own separate organization and since then have more than tripled in size.
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And you're right, I think the reason for that is because so many OBs, especially now, see
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the direction, the radical pro-abortion direction that ACOG has gone to the point where they
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don't support any regulations, any restrictions whatsoever on abortion.
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And they actually are very hostile towards the conscience rights of those of us who are
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And so it very much has become this refuge and safe haven for pro-life medical professionals.
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In fact, we just recently launched an emergency medicine subsection because we had ER physicians
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coming to us and saying that their professional body was following ACOG's lead and becoming very
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And they felt like they needed a different professional organization to represent them.
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Yeah, you kind of answered this, but do you feel like there is an adversarial relationship
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You mentioned their hostility to conscience rights.
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So that started really all the way back in 2010 when they issued their ethics statement 385
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And they basically said that as OBGYNs, if you wanted to be an ethical physician, that
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you either had to perform or refer for abortions, or if you weren't willing to do that, you had
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to relocate your practice to within 30 miles of someone who would, which of course is a ridiculous
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And they then tried to tie our board certification to following those guidelines.
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And APLOG banded together with a couple other organizations and pushed back against that
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And that's where many of our federal conscience protections came from.
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But since then, ACOG has just continued to become more and more radical, as I said, and
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more and more hostile actually towards pro-life OBGYNs.
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In fact, just when, well, when I took over as CEO, so it was March of last year, we were
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in D.C. ready to exhibit at an ACOG conference that we had exhibited at every year for the
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They had accepted our application for that year, and we were in D.C. ready to exhibit.
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And this was a conference for medical educators within OB, so the people that are educating
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We were notified the day before the conference via email that our booth literally had been
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And the person emailing us was just trying to find out where to send our refund check
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And so we reached out to ACOG and tried to ask, you know, why are you canceling our exhibit
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And so we applied a little pressure through you getting some media outlets to get them
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And on the record, they said that we are no longer allowed to exhibit at ACOG conferences
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simply because we're pro-life, that they won't allow our views to be present at their conference.
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So that's kind of where we're at right now with ACOG, unfortunately.
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It's just simply evidence-based information about the effects of induced abortion on our
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And honestly, a lot of our material focuses on our maternal patient because, of course,
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we know that the scientific evidence is very clear that our fetal patient is, in fact, a
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patient from the moment they come into existence.
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But a lot of our information is actually about giving informed consent to women who are contemplating
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an abortion decision, you know, so that they know the risks associated with induced abortion.
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And apparently, evidence-based information is too scary for ACOG.
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You know, I think they just don't want to allow anything to go against their radical pro-abortion
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Do you have any idea what has made them so radical over the past 10 to 15 years?
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I know you mentioned in the 60s and 70s, they became more outspokenly pro-abortion.
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But it seems like that has sped up, like that has intensified over the past 10 to 20 years.
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Do you have any idea what has gone on inside ACOG to induce that change?
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I mean, they're definitely, they seem to be focused on having people in leadership that
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agree with them, especially on the issue of abortion and promoting that actually much more
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so than a lot of other issues that they could be talking about with women's health.
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But, you know, I think ACOG is following the same sort of the same trajectory that we're
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You know, when you think about other issues that have happened, the transgender issues
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and, you know, organizations are not following the evidence and going with this ideological
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So I think a similar thing has happened with ACOG and with abortion, as we have seen medical
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schools and residencies being really infiltrated by this idea that induced abortion is essential
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And so in that, then they're not allowing any talk that goes against that narrative.
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And, you know, one of the things that we have tried to reach out to ACOG about, in fact,
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after they kicked us out of their conferences, we invited them to an open academic debate and
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said, hey, if you disagree with us, great, come to a debate.
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And they refused to do that because they said that abortion is settled science.
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And so I think that they just are completely resistant to anything going against their
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They're not even willing to admit that maybe some women experience adverse mental health
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Instead, they say nobody experiences it, which is not consistent with what not only the medical
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evidence shows, but what our own practice, you know, shows us.
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I've met with countless patients who are experiencing horrible depression, anxiety, things like that.
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And but they seem to just be afraid to allow any any, again, counter narrative to their
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You know, it's a really good indicator that you're on the wrong side if you have to rely
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on vagueness, euphemisms, deceit and hiding to defend your position.
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I've found they're afraid of a conversation, just a science-based conversation about fetal
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And if abortion were really health care, if it were really just a decision to get your
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tooth pulled, basically, then they wouldn't get so angry when you try to simply say what
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abortion is, because all types of health procedures, true health procedures have some
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kind of adverse outcomes or risk of adverse outcomes.
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There is nothing that is riskless, I believe, in the medical world.
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So the fact that they're denying that there's even a possibility of adverse outcomes when it
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comes to abortion means they are not only abandoning the data that's available in relation
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to the specific procedure, but really, like, the scientific method as a whole, the entire
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mentality around practicing medicine, they're saying this is, like, the one procedure that
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If I went to a doctor and they told me anything didn't have a single risk associated with it, you
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probably better get up and leave that doctor's office.
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I think that's one thing that people should be aware of to say something might be going
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on here, you know, if they're not willing to admit any risks.
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I just got off of doing an interview on NPR and there was another OBGYN on who has a very
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And when I tried to bring up that there's 160 studies that show a link between surgical
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abortion and preterm birth and future pregnancies and that there are numerous studies that show
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an increased risk of adverse health outcome or mental health outcomes, including a seven
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times increased risk of suicide, she said there are no studies that show any of that.
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You know, you can't even admit that there are a few studies.
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We might disagree on where the majority of the studies lie, but to say that there's not
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And, you know, I think it's really important, as you said, that we have honest conversations
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And even people that are on the other side of the abortion issue from you and I at the
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very least should care about women receiving fully informed consent before they make any
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And that includes knowing all the potential risks so that they can make an informed decision.
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And we know that women simply are not getting that not only from ACOG, but from, you know,
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abortion providers when they go into abortion facilities.
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And, you know, you mentioned conscience rights a few minutes ago, and I'm reminded of what's
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From my understanding, it would really override the conscience rights of many doctors who
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don't want to perform abortions, basically saying that if you don't want to perform abortions,
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I'm not sure if you have insight into the Equality Act and what that would mean for you
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Of course, it hasn't passed Congress, but it's a possibility.
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Is that something that your organization has looked into?
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So the Equality Act, as well as another bill that has been proposed by the Democrats, is
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the Women's Health, quote unquote, Women's Health Protection Act.
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It actually does nothing to protect women's health.
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Both of those would view doctors objecting to performing or referring for abortion as
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And so in that way, they would not allow a physician to refuse to perform a referrer.
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And, you know, I think in my experience and in talking to colleagues, I think sometimes
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people don't understand, well, if you won't do it, that's fine.
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Well, think about any other procedure that you would know to be harmful to either of
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I think it's important to point out as an OB-GYN, I'm taking care of two patients, not just that
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woman sitting in front of me, but I'm also taking care of her unborn child.
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So, you know, I know that an induced abortion is going to violently end the life of that child,
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but I also know that that induced abortion is going to potentially carry all of these risks
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So I can't in good conscience refer, even refer my patient to a physician who I know is going
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And I certainly wouldn't do it for induced abortion.
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And, you know, when we look at conscience rights, it's not enough for us to just have
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religious protection in this country because there are people, physicians, there are people
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in our organization who aren't opposed to abortion based on any religious grounds.
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They're opposed to abortion because it ends the life, intentionally ends the life of a
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And because as a physician, they've taken an oath not to do that.
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And so having explicit conscience protections are extremely important.
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But, you know, Ali, to go back to this kind of links with that previous question that you
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asked, this wasn't necessarily specific to ACOG.
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But there was an article that came out, I believe it was in 2017, from Ezekiel Emanuel,
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who was one of the architects of the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare, who also has been a very
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vocal proponent of physician-assisted suicide or euthanasia.
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And it was an article about conscientious objection and how it's different for physicians.
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Their position was that it's different for physicians than it is for, say, people in the
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military because we are not conscripted into being physicians, but we have freely chosen
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And so their position was that because we have chosen to go into this profession, we should
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not have the right to abstain from any procedure or, quote unquote, treatment that has been deemed
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And they used ACOG as an example of an organization that is doing it right, in their opinion, as
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far as discouraging conscientious conscience rights.
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And they actually said at the end of the article that if someone had an objection to a procedure
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that was standard of care, such as abortion, that they should either consider going into a
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field like radiology or getting out of the profession altogether.
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So these are our, quote unquote, thought leaders in medicine.
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I mean, that is frightening if you think about that.
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And so that's why I think it's so important that organizations like APLOG exist to continue
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to defend our right to practice life-affirming medicine that we know our patients actually
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I mean, it just seems so obvious to me that I would want a doctor who sees the innate
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Not one who decides whether or not they care about my baby based on whether I want him or
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her, but based on the fact that this is a human being, it seems to me like I and my baby would
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But of course, they are asking doctors, demanding doctors live in this very dissonant, duplicitous
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world where on the one hand, you care for babies when the baby is wanted.
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But if the baby is not wanted, all of a sudden, it's only a fetus.
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And some people can live in that hypocritical world.
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But those who don't want to are being punished.
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As you know, I'm sure it just bothers you so much as an OBGYN who knows the medicine,
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who knows the science better than most people behind what goes on in the womb, what goes on
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and an abortion, there was recently a story about a young woman in Georgia named Amber
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And she was a mother of a six-year-old boy, but she had gotten pregnant with twins.
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And she went to North Carolina to get an abortion because it was after the point where it was
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And she missed her appointment, so they gave her some abortion pills.
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Well, she went to the ER with heavy bleeding and signs of an infection.
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And basically, they gave her antibiotics and a DNC way too late, and she ended up dying,
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We've got three people who died unnecessarily in this situation.
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Kamala Harris, the media, activists are all telling us this is because of Georgia's abortion
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Can you break down this story for us, how you are seeing this as an OBGYN, and help us
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And it's one that could have been avoided sort of in many steps along the path.
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So just to sort of tell your listeners how I look at it as an OBGYN, granted, I have not
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So my analysis of this is based on what was published in the article that came out last week
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about her death, but they actually gave quite a few details.
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And so I think that we can actually draw very different conclusions than what the media and
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So as you said, she found herself in a situation where she wasn't ready to be pregnant, which
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And out of desperation, I'm sure she drove to North Carolina.
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One of the first things that stood out to me actually was that she had planned on a surgical
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As you said, she was pregnant with twins, which would increase her risk, some of complications
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But because she got delayed by traffic, it said that the abortion facility could not hold her
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And so instead, a clinic employee offered her the abortion drugs.
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Where was the person who could truly give her informed consent about the risks of those drugs?
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And so she took the first pill, mifepristone, there, it sounds like, and then drove home to
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Georgia and took the second pill, mesoprostol, which would put her into labor then.
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And then over several days, it sounds like she suffered at home from horrible pain, bleeding,
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and then began vomiting blood, and then went into her emergency room.
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And again, from what's reported, when she presented, she had heavy bleeding.
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An ultrasound showed that there were still fetal tissue inside of her uterus, so she had
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She hadn't passed all of the babies, and she hadn't passed all of the placenta.
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And it said that she had dangerously low blood pressure and an elevated white blood cell count,
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which tells a physician that she's got an infection, most likely a bacterial infection.
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And the low blood pressure would be a potential sign of early sepsis.
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And so, you know, we said in our response to this on social media, a first-year OB resident
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should have been able to make that diagnosis, especially if they knew that she had taken
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those abortion drugs, the standard of care for her treatment in that situation would be
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immediate initiation of IV antibiotics and a DNC procedure, dilation and curatage, where
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it's a surgical procedure to empty the uterus of what is left in there.
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That's the only way that you can get an infection like this under control.
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And again, every competent OB-GYN should know that.
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It's, as you said, it's being blamed on Georgia's law that that DNC was not done immediately.
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However, there's a few important things to point out.
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One, it sounds like the doctors who took care of her are not actually blaming Georgia's law.
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The panel of medical experts that determined that her death was preventable, which I agree
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with 100%, and due to the delay in the DNC, also agree with that.
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But they aren't saying that it was Georgia's law that led to the delay.
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Pro Publica, though, the media and politicians are the one that's saying it's due to Georgia's law.
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But also, Georgia's law would not have applied to Amber Thurman for two reasons.
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First of all, again, per what we have available in the article, her babies were not alive when
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And Georgia's law clearly states that it does not apply in situations where a fetal demise
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or the babies have already passed has already happened.
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Second of all, that septic incomplete abortion, which would have been the diagnosis that she
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should have been given, that is a life-threatening infection.
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Georgia's law has clear medical exceptions when women are facing life-threatening complications
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that the doctors could have intervened immediately.
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So we need to be pointing fingers at the right things.
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We need to be pointing fingers at these abortion drugs, which we know cause these kind of
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Infection is the leading cause of death from the abortion drug mifepristone.
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And in fact, over 30 women have died in the U.S. now that we know of since taking these
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And again, the vast majority of them are due to infection.
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Also, I think we need to be pointing fingers at, you know, somebody should be doing an investigation
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into what happened when she went into the hospital.
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But an investigation needs to be done and should be done in order to bring justice to
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But I just think that these stories, Amber's and the other story that we heard of Candy
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Miller last week, highlight the dangers of this drug that now, because of what the FDA
00:25:49.380
has done in removing any in-person visit requirement, now these drugs can be obtained online with
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no evaluation for how far along a woman is in her pregnancy, no evaluation for an ectopic
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pregnancy, which is life-threatening, no evaluation for coercion.
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It really is medical malpractice the way that these drugs are being used.
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And it is dangerous for women that politicians and the media are trying to blame abortions,
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or I'm sorry, Georgia's abortion law, instead of putting the blame where it belongs, which
00:26:28.720
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We haven't talked about her yet on our show, but this was also a story that was published
00:27:25.960
by ProPublica, and the title is Afraid to Seek Care Amid Georgia's Abortion Ban.
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So she found out that she was pregnant in 2022.
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She took abortion pills by mail, and she became bedridden and in pain for days.
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After, and then on November 12th, her husband found her unresponsive in bed.
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After she died, an autopsy found unexpelled fetal tissue, confirming that the abortion had
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It also found a lethal combination of painkillers, including the dangerous opioid fentanyl.
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Her family later told a coroner she hadn't visited a doctor due to the current legislation
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It's these abortion pills that are allowed to be taken without the direction of a doctor,
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which, of course, as you mentioned, the abortion lobby, including ACOG, has really pushed hard for.
00:28:29.560
There, you know, there's so many sort of tragic parts of this story and points at which if she
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had just seen a physician, maybe something would have turned out differently.
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You know, the FDA in 2021, as I said, removed that in-person dispensing requirement for
00:28:48.900
mifepristone, allowing these drugs to be dispensed online.
00:28:51.880
And I think many people think that, oh, well, that means that a woman still at least has
00:28:56.960
a telehealth appointment with a physician who evaluates her before she gets these drugs.
00:29:03.080
Many of these sites, women can just go on and fill out a form, and then they get the drugs
00:29:08.200
It says that she got hers from Aid Access, which sends these pills from another country.
00:29:13.140
There's no control over what might be in those drugs.
00:29:16.220
And of course, they tragically end the life of her unborn child, which is the first thing
00:29:24.640
But also, what kind of care is that for a woman?
00:29:28.580
And the story says that she either thought or had been told, that's not very clear, that
00:29:34.240
she could not have a pregnancy because of some medical conditions, significant ones like
00:29:42.320
And those things oftentimes can be actually successfully managed through pregnancy.
00:29:48.560
So why was she not told or why didn't she see a high-risk obstetrician who could have
00:29:53.920
talked to her about the risks of pregnancy with her specific conditions?
00:29:58.840
But also, why is she allowed to get these drugs online with no medical supervision when
00:30:04.140
she has that many high-risk medical conditions?
00:30:10.220
In fact, it is, I would say, frank medical malpractice.
00:30:14.520
And then it says that she stayed at home and didn't seek attention after, I think the story
00:30:19.700
says her son heard her moaning and pain in her bed.
00:30:24.880
You know, many times, I'm sure you've heard this as well.
00:30:27.460
We know that women are told, oh, they're as safe as Tylenol.
00:30:34.500
That is not what I have had women tell me who have been through a chemical abortion.
00:30:39.340
And that's certainly not what it sounded like from the story of what Candy went through.
00:30:45.320
And then, you know, I would say that Candy's death in particular is a direct example of
00:30:51.680
how the lies and misinformation that are being spread about these laws led directly to someone's
00:30:58.840
Somehow, Candy had heard that either she wasn't going to be able to get the treatment that
00:31:03.840
she needed because she had started the abortion process, or that maybe she was afraid that
00:31:09.660
she might be prosecuted because of having taken these abortion drugs, when in fact, Georgia's
00:31:15.100
law and no other pro-life law in the country criminalizes women for, you know, starting the
00:31:22.440
And so she was afraid to go in because of lies that had been told to her, maybe through
00:31:30.600
And so she didn't go in and seek care and she died at home.
00:31:35.000
And whether or not she died is a direct complication of the abortion drugs.
00:31:39.500
I mean, as you said, they said the coroner's report said that she had an incomplete abortion.
00:31:44.180
So we know that she at least had that complication.
00:31:46.720
Um, and it also said that she had fentanyl in her system.
00:31:50.860
Maybe it was the fentanyl that led to her death, but that still should raise questions.
00:31:55.680
Why was she taking fentanyl to get rid of this intense pain that she was in?
00:32:00.160
If she had an actual patient physician relationship, which is what the, you know, the pro-abortion
00:32:07.180
We have to keep the government out of the patient physician relationship.
00:32:10.920
Where was her patient physician relationship when she got these drugs online?
00:32:16.720
And if she had one, she would have had a doctor that she could go to to say, you know, I'm
00:32:23.120
I don't know if this is normal or if it is, can I at least have some medication to help
00:32:28.060
Instead, she took a very dangerous drug that could have led to her death.
00:32:32.180
But again, the thing that started this entire cascade of events were those abortion drugs.
00:32:40.720
Yeah, you raise a really good point about the disinformation campaign that we've seen that
00:32:47.340
has stoked a lot of fear, a lot of paranoia among, I assume, hospital, you know, the hospital
00:32:56.220
staff, doctors and nurses, but also among women.
00:33:02.300
It's that unfortunately she had been told by activists, by politicians that if you get an
00:33:09.960
abortion in the state of Georgia, you will go to jail.
00:33:16.580
But all of this is the fault, as you said, of the abortion lobby who has pushed so hard
00:33:22.860
for who has pushed so hard for these mail order abortion pills, who actively lobbies against
00:33:30.660
true informed consent, and as you said, true care for these moms and their babies.
00:33:38.040
Something that we hear so often is that, well, you know, these pro-choice laws or the pro-choice
00:33:46.900
legislation, legislation that would allow access to abortion, even if it's through all nine months,
00:33:53.920
what we're trying to protect is a woman's right to access miscarriage care.
00:34:00.400
This is something I've seen since the overturning of Roe v. Wade over and over again.
00:34:05.160
And even pro-lifers get duped by this, that you have to be pro-choice.
00:34:09.400
You have to be against pro-life law legislation if you want women to be able to access miscarriage
00:34:16.460
There are people who truly believe that a DNC after a miscarriage is the same thing as
00:34:23.300
a DNC during abortion and that pro-life states like Arkansas or Texas or Georgia have outlawed
00:34:30.660
DNCs in the case of even spontaneous miscarriages.
00:34:44.380
And I think that this is really nefarious on the part of the abortion lobby.
00:34:49.020
You know, their true goal is to have elective induced abortion with no restrictions whatsoever.
00:34:55.520
But they know that that's not popular with the American people.
00:35:00.660
And so they know that using fear tactics like saying that miscarriage care is under threat
00:35:08.200
I think there's a few different things to be said to sort of help clear up the confusion.
00:35:12.280
First of all, I actually think it's harmful to women who have experienced miscarriage to
00:35:22.840
Even the CDC defines induced abortion as a procedure or treatment given to end a pregnancy
00:35:34.300
So they acknowledge that the intent is to end the life of that fetal human being.
00:35:39.700
Of course, that's not what's going on with a miscarriage.
00:35:42.220
With a miscarriage, that pre-born child has already passed away spontaneously with with
00:35:49.140
And actually, the CDC definition of induced abortion explicitly says that it excludes miscarriage
00:35:55.440
management, management of ectopic pregnancy or removal of retained products of conception
00:36:02.440
So even the CDC understands that a miscarriage is not the same thing as an induced abortion.
00:36:10.480
Also, all of the state laws that we're talking about explicitly exclude miscarriage.
00:36:15.920
They say this law does not even apply in that case.
00:36:20.320
Now, I think where people get confused is, yes, the same kind of procedure, a DNC procedure
00:36:26.100
can be used to treat a miscarriage or it can be used to perform an induced abortion.
00:36:30.720
But DNCs in and of themselves are not outlawed anywhere in the country.
00:36:36.540
The only thing that is outlawed in pro-life states are DNCs with the intent to end the life
00:36:43.000
of an unborn child who is living at the time of the procedure.
00:36:47.100
And so that is very, very important for people to understand.
00:36:51.240
Doctors like me can still do miscarriage treatment.
00:36:53.780
Whatever kind of miscarriage treatment we need to do for our patients in every state in the
00:37:00.780
We don't have to fear being penalized by the law.
00:37:05.100
And women should not fear going to seek treatment for any of these conditions at any hospital
00:37:13.100
And another way that I know that, you know, before the Dobbs decision, doctors inherently
00:37:18.680
understood the difference between an induced abortion, which is what is outlawed in some
00:37:23.560
of some states, and miscarriage treatment, ectopic treatment, et cetera, is that there were
00:37:29.240
three surveys done in the few years before Dobbs that asked OBGYNs whether or not they performed
00:37:35.440
induced abortions either as part of their practice or in the last year.
00:37:39.840
Of those three surveys, all of them showed that the vast majority of OBs did not do induced
00:37:46.080
76 to 93 percent said they did not do induced abortions.
00:37:51.120
I guarantee you that 100 percent or nearly 100 percent of them were treating miscarriage.
00:37:56.960
They were treating ectopic pregnancy, et cetera.
00:38:01.880
They just were asked, do you do induced abortions?
00:38:07.880
The only confusion that is being created right now after Roe was overturned and the state
00:38:13.660
laws went into effect is because of intentional lies and misinformation that are being spread,
00:38:18.740
as you said, by the abortion lobby, by media and by politicians that are leading to very
00:38:27.400
And I think they're leading to, as you said, many people who would consider that consider
00:38:32.080
themselves pro-life voting for some of these radical pro-abortion ballot initiatives, constitutional
00:38:40.640
And so it's very important for people to understand not only so that they can seek appropriate care,
00:38:45.440
but also before they go to the ballot box this year, if they're a state that has one of these
00:38:53.340
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Do you think that these stories of women who say they went to the ER, they were having
00:39:59.820
a spontaneous miscarriage and the doctors refused to treat them until they were on the
00:40:07.000
They had to get to a certain level before the doctor decided, OK, we're going to treat this
00:40:11.640
ectopic pregnancy or we're going to treat this miscarriage.
00:40:15.380
If that is really happening, do you think that there are doctors and nurses legitimately
00:40:21.400
confused and afraid or do you think there's something more sinister going on?
00:40:28.340
You know, I've thought a lot about that question, actually, because, you know, as a physician who
00:40:33.180
cares so deeply about my patients, even if I was legitimately facing a potential legal penalty
00:40:41.340
for intervening and treating a patient in front of me who needed treatment, honestly, I my
00:40:47.960
oath, my care for my patients would compel me to care for that patient regardless.
00:40:52.280
So it's very, very difficult for me to understand why someone would withhold treatment when it's
00:41:00.040
I think that it is likely a combination of a number of factors.
00:41:05.140
I think that there are a lot of physicians who just in the past, before Roe was overturned,
00:41:11.260
honestly, didn't even really have to put much thought into this issue.
00:41:15.720
And now that they do, because the national conversation is different and our laws and our
00:41:20.860
states are now different, I think that they are confused and they're relying, they rely
00:41:26.020
appropriately on the medical bodies, on their hospital attorneys, on their state medical
00:41:31.540
boards and medical associations to provide appropriate guidance about every law that impacts
00:41:37.060
our practice of medicine, including these pro-life laws.
00:41:40.860
And unfortunately, what we're seeing is a conspicuous silence on the part of organizations
00:41:46.760
like ACOG, they don't have to agree with these state laws, but they should have a vested interest
00:41:52.060
in ensuring that physicians know that they can intervene in order, you know, quickly in
00:41:57.520
order to prevent tragedies like what we've heard this past week from happening.
00:42:04.920
APOG is really the only professional organization who is stepping into that gap and providing education
00:42:10.740
to ensure that physicians intervene immediately because no state law requires immediacy.
00:42:16.760
No state law requires that a woman be actively dying before a physician intervene.
00:42:21.860
They can intervene immediately when they make a diagnosis that this could be life-threatening
00:42:27.980
And so it's important that physicians understand that.
00:42:30.080
So I do think that the vast majority of physicians who report confusion probably are confused, but because
00:42:36.820
of misinformation that they've heard or just because of a complete lack of information.
00:42:42.060
And I think it's important for people to remember physicians are people just like everybody else.
00:42:46.300
We watch the news, we're on social media, all of that.
00:42:49.220
And so, you know, physicians can be influenced by these lies just the same as anyone else.
00:42:54.760
There have definitely been some reports that certainly make you wonder if people are intentionally
00:43:04.000
We took an oath to take care of our patients and that is what we must do as physicians.
00:43:09.600
And so if that is happening, that needs to stop immediately.
00:43:14.120
And I also worry that maybe there are cases of medical negligence.
00:43:18.700
Just frank, you know, physicians make mistakes.
00:43:21.400
Sometimes they don't intervene when they need to intervene, even outside of the context of,
00:43:26.120
you know, whether or not this is impacted by abortion laws.
00:43:29.040
And now there's an easy scapegoat of pro-life laws in states where this is happening.
00:43:34.380
And so I think it's probably a combination of all of those things.
00:43:39.020
You know, the one thing that we can do as an organization to impact that, again, is education,
00:43:44.680
helping physicians to understand that, look, this is the way so many of us, thousands of
00:43:50.780
us, all of those of us who are in APLOG have practiced our entire careers.
00:43:55.280
This is not impossible to practice in this way and take good care of patients and ensure
00:44:02.220
Yeah, I mean, doctors have always had to navigate some kinds of restrictions and regulations
00:44:07.520
surrounding abortion, especially in some states.
00:44:10.300
And so I just think this idea that all of a sudden they are completely dumbfounded, they're
00:44:15.140
completely confused about how to navigate laws, what the limits are, I just find that hard
00:44:21.720
But I think that your point about the silence of ACOG is such a good one, because whether
00:44:27.120
or not they like these pro-life laws, they do have a responsibility to their physicians
00:44:31.720
and to the physicians' patients to bring as much clarity as possible.
00:44:36.080
And it seems like a maliciously intentional choice to withhold that clarity and say, no,
00:44:50.740
Something else that we hear a lot is, well, we've got to be pro-abortion because of the
00:44:57.200
woman who needs an abortion, who needs an abortion to save her life, or because she has some serious
00:45:06.060
Or sometimes you hear late-term abortions only happen when there is a fetal anomaly.
00:45:16.440
First off, you know, there are definitely times in medicine and in the practice of OB that we have
00:45:21.580
to do what APLOG calls, because I think it's more accurate, a maternal-fetal separation.
00:45:26.760
So there are times when we need to separate mom and baby because mom is facing a life-threatening
00:45:34.020
Thankfully, the vast majority of the time that happens after the point of fetal viability where
00:45:41.640
So when you're after that point, there is no question.
00:45:47.200
You either do a normal delivery or you do a C-section, and you take care of mom and you
00:45:53.200
It's important to point out that a delivery in that scenario after the point of viability
00:45:57.840
when you're that far along in pregnancy is actually much faster than an abortion procedure.
00:46:03.120
Abortion procedures in the late second and third trimester actually take several days.
00:46:07.980
If mom is facing a life-threatening complication, she doesn't have several days.
00:46:14.940
It's a lie to say that late-term abortions are needed in order to save the life of women.
00:46:23.560
Even at a pre-viable point in pregnancy, we can oftentimes do a delivery that delivers mom
00:46:31.560
an intact baby that the family can hold and grieve over.
00:46:35.880
But again, intent is extremely important when we're looking at that because our intent in
00:46:41.500
doing that early delivery is not to end the life of that child.
00:46:44.800
And if medicine advances to the point that we can continue to resuscitate and support babies
00:46:51.660
at earlier and earlier gestational ages, then that's exactly what we'll do.
00:46:55.740
But our intent in that intervention is to save the life of mom.
00:46:59.760
And so those of us who are pro-life have no qualms doing that when it's clearly indicated.
00:47:06.540
And you know that it's going to lead to the death of that child.
00:47:12.400
And as someone who's had to sit on the edge of my patient's bed with them and have that
00:47:17.180
very difficult conversation, I can say that, yes, it happens.
00:47:21.760
But I can also say that we can do it in a way that respects the dignity of both mom and baby.
00:47:27.640
It's also a lie to say that the vast majority of abortions done in the second and third trimester
00:47:35.740
We know that actually the vast majority of abortions that occur per Guttmacher, this is
00:47:40.540
not per pro-life researchers, are actually the same reasons why women seek abortions in
00:47:45.140
the first trimester, which are largely socioeconomic or pressure from their family or those around
00:47:52.440
them. Warren Hearn, of course, a famous late term abortionist in Colorado, was featured in the
00:48:00.260
Atlantic bragging about the fact that he does abortions on healthy women and healthy babies well into the
00:48:07.500
third trimester. I think in that article he said 34 to 35 weeks. But I recently came across a study that he
00:48:14.900
had published looking at second and third trimester abortions where he reported doing abortions up to
00:48:20.220
39 weeks. That's a week before someone's due date. And again, he says the vast majority of the
00:48:26.760
abortions he does are for healthy women and healthy babies and that he believes that women should be
00:48:33.260
able to have abortions in the third trimester for any reason they want to. So people need to
00:48:38.360
understand that this is happening even now. It was happening before the Dobbs decision and it continues
00:48:44.560
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I think people just don't want to reckon with that reality because it's so barbaric and it's just so sad.
00:49:42.920
But you're right. And the idea that women have to have abortions when there's a fetal anomaly or that
00:49:50.600
it's, I've heard very often from the media that it's cruel to allow a baby with say trisomy 18 or
00:49:57.920
trisomy 13 to be born at 36 weeks or whenever he or she needs to be delivered, that the more merciful
00:50:06.080
option is to abort that child. But again, I mean, you're looking at a procedure that is much riskier for
00:50:12.820
the mom if it's post 20 weeks and takes a long time and also disregards the dignity of that child.
00:50:20.360
I mean, that child can be delivered and held and loved and buried, but an abortion of a child with
00:50:27.200
some kind of fetal anomaly, they don't get that honor. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, there's so many
00:50:34.320
things that are wrong with how this is portrayed, I think, to the public and to women in this
00:50:41.380
particular situation. You know, first off, people hear, oh, a lethal fetal anomaly or some version
00:50:48.300
of that. I like saying a life-limiting prenatal diagnosis because it may limit the life of that
00:50:53.560
child, but it doesn't mean that that child doesn't have a life. But also it's important for people to
00:50:59.260
know that there's actually no consensus within the medical community of what qualifies for a life
00:51:04.880
limiting diagnosis. So there are some conditions that there's a 40 to 50% survival rate for babies
00:51:11.160
that are considered life limiting or lethal diagnoses. So there is a definite chance with
00:51:17.800
many of these conditions that baby can survive. And even with treatment, have several years on this
00:51:24.400
earth. Of course, who are we to judge someone's quality of life? You know, as you said, we need
00:51:29.800
to respect the dignity of all lives, regardless of their level of ability. The other thing that this
00:51:35.360
ignores is that we could be wrong about the diagnosis. And if we intervene as physicians and,
00:51:42.300
you know, violently end the life of that child, who, by the way, can feel pain from that abortion is not
00:51:49.040
feeling pain from their disability if they have one. But if we intervene prematurely, we get rid of
00:51:55.700
the possibility that we could be wrong about that diagnosis. What if that child doesn't have that
00:52:00.940
diagnosis and they could actually survive? The other thing that that ignores is the real benefit of
00:52:07.020
something called perinatal palliative care or perinatal hospice. This is a loving and compassionate
00:52:12.460
option for families whose child has been given a diagnosis that we expect to be severely
00:52:18.820
life-limiting, where their child is valued throughout the pregnancy, where they can come up with a
00:52:23.760
delivery plan, where they can have the, you know, the time that mom is pregnant with that baby is the
00:52:29.680
only time sometimes, depending on the condition that that family is going to have with their child.
00:52:34.900
And so it helps maximize the value in that for that family and give them all the support that they
00:52:40.320
need so that they can walk through the natural grieving process rather than cutting it short and rather
00:52:46.780
than feeling agency in their own child's death. You know, I can tell you from talking to a patient who
00:52:52.820
went through an abortion for an adverse diagnosis that afterwards found out about the availability of
00:52:59.540
perinatal hospice, hadn't known about that before. And she really was struggling with depression
00:53:05.780
from feeling that she had participated in her child's death as opposed to her child dying of natural
00:53:12.560
causes. So there's so many more, um, uh, benefits to offering patients, uh, perinatal palliative care,
00:53:20.280
or at the very least helping them understand that this is their child. We could be wrong about the
00:53:25.120
diagnosis, but even if we're not, this is still their child who has dignity and worth. And one last
00:53:30.520
thing I'll say is, um, we did after the Kate Cox story came out about, um, you know, her being pregnant
00:53:36.680
with a child with trisomy 18. APLUG actually did a webinar about trisomy 18 and actually how many of
00:53:43.200
these children can live, um, even into their teens, early twenties with appropriate medical care. Shocker,
00:53:50.040
if we give these children medical care, they actually survive, um, a decent portion of the time.
00:53:55.900
But one of the best parts about that webinar was we had a family on with us with their daughter,
00:54:01.240
Hope, who, um, is in her teens. And it was just so amazing to see them interact with her. She got
00:54:08.500
on with us and she interacted with us. And I loved one thing that they said was that our daughter is
00:54:14.040
not a fetus and she's not a diagnosis. She's our daughter. And they wanted people to understand that
00:54:19.400
and understand her value and understand that with appropriate treatment, many of these children can
00:54:23.860
actually survive and bring so much joy to their families. Um, so, you know, to me, that's the kind of
00:54:29.240
care that women and families deserve. They don't deserve to be told, Oh, all we have to offer you
00:54:34.940
is either an abortion or there's nothing else we can do for you. That's not a choice and it's not
00:54:39.000
compassion. Dr. Francis, thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you do and how you lead this
00:54:45.140
organization for the clarity that you are trying to give physicians to help moms and babies, because
00:54:51.240
we want to create a culture of life and you guys are helping make that possible. And I just appreciate
00:54:57.760
you so much. Uh, where can people find out more about you, your organization? How can they get
00:55:03.740
involved? Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Allie, so much for what you do to defend women and children
00:55:10.520
and promote that culture of life. That is so important. If people want to find out more about
00:55:14.780
APLOG, first of all, if you're a medical professional and you're listening to this, you don't have to be an
00:55:18.920
OBGYN. We welcome you to join us. You can go to our website. That's AAPLOG.org. We also have plenty of
00:55:27.880
resources on the website for the general public, including a directory where you can look up whether
00:55:33.040
there's a pro-life physician in your area if they've chosen to be listed publicly. And that is certainly a
00:55:38.840
good resource for the public. And then we're also on social media. You can follow us on Instagram,
00:55:44.100
Facebook, LinkedIn, X. Um, so we'd welcome you to follow us on that as we put out, um, again,
00:55:50.720
accurate information about the effects of abortion on women and about what constitute actual women's
00:55:56.180
healthcare. Thank you so much, Dr. Francis. Thank you so much.