Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1079 ｜ When to Stop Having Kids ｜ Guest： Dr. Catherine Pakaluk

00:00:00.740 Dr. Katherine Pakalik is a mother of eight and an economics professor.

00:00:06.400 She wrote the book, Hannah's Children, and she tells the story of women across the country

00:00:12.240 that are defying the birth dearth by having lots of kids.

00:00:16.740 She's looked at this from all different kinds of angles, scientifically, economically, morally,

00:00:21.980 and spiritually.

00:00:22.760 The conclusions that she has walked away with are just amazing and I think really compelling.

00:00:30.000 For everyone, but especially those of you out there who are considering whether or not

00:00:34.880 to have more children, you guys are going to love this conversation.

00:00:38.140 It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:39.740 Go to go.goodranchers.com slash Allie, code Allie, go.goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:56.660 Katherine, thank you so much for joining me.

00:00:58.900 If you could just tell everyone who you are and what you do.

00:01:01.760 Sure.

00:01:02.060 My name is Katherine Pakalik and I teach at the Catholic University of America.

00:01:06.520 I'm an economist by training and I also have eight wonderful children.

00:01:10.860 You know, that's a funny combination to some people because a lot of people cite economics

00:01:17.120 as the reason for not having a lot of kids.

00:01:20.840 And yet you have written this book, which basically makes the case for having a lot of kids.

00:01:26.820 It's called Hannah's Children.

00:01:28.560 And as we'll talk about, it's even been reviewed by the New Yorker.

00:01:32.880 So let's just start with your book, why you wrote it, what it's about.

00:01:37.120 Sure.

00:01:37.800 Well, I wrote my book because as an economist, I've been, like many economists, studying birth

00:01:42.860 rates because birth rates feed into the labor force, right?

00:01:46.360 Who is available to work in a country?

00:01:48.300 So just in my training as an economist, I was aware of the fact that people are worried

00:01:53.440 about falling birth rates.

00:01:56.100 But meanwhile, my personal life, I knew many people in my church and other churches who

00:02:02.060 have welcomed sizable families.

00:02:04.260 And I thought, is there something we can learn from these kind of unusual families all around

00:02:09.220 the country?

00:02:09.700 So I wrote the book to provide a kind of little peek into the world of people who are defying

00:02:16.880 falling birth rates and then try to draw some conclusions about that.

00:02:21.360 So the subtitle is The Women Quietly Define the Birth Deerth. 0.99

00:02:26.340 So even that subtitle, that is saying that there are women who are purposely having eight kids 1.00

00:02:34.700 when typically we hear, you know, even, I think it was Emmanuel Macron who said, well,

00:02:39.480 no woman wants that. 1.00

00:02:41.040 She's being forced to or, in very crude terms, she's too dumb to know how not to have kids. 1.00

00:02:47.280 Right. 0.98

00:02:47.860 And you're saying that's not the case.

00:02:49.260 That's not the case.

00:02:50.540 Right.

00:02:50.980 I mean, didn't we see this with the coverage of Hannah Neelman in the Ballerina Farm recently?

00:02:55.980 I mean, that article, the interviewer just went and talked to her and kind of, you know,

00:02:59.960 walked away concluding, it must be that deep down she's being kind of forced into this

00:03:04.120 life.

00:03:05.240 So no, I went out to talk to people who said their family sizes were purposeful and to

00:03:09.780 find out what their purposes were.

00:03:11.800 And what did you find out?

00:03:12.940 Yeah.

00:03:13.360 I found out that by and large, these purposes are connected to being women of faith.

00:03:20.420 I'd like to sum it up as saying there are all these women who believe that children are 0.99

00:03:25.480 expressions of God's goodness, the purpose of their marriages, and blessings from God in

00:03:32.220 the most old-fashioned sense.

00:03:34.380 Right.

00:03:35.160 And we hear a lot that if women were more educated, they would have fewer children.

00:03:39.740 Yeah.

00:03:40.260 These women who you're saying, you know, they trust God with their childbearing, therefore 0.96

00:03:46.160 they're having children.

00:03:47.180 Are they just uneducated?

00:03:48.900 Are they just following religious feelings?

00:03:51.040 Yeah.

00:03:51.260 Well, so it's fair to say that around the world, it's a very strong predictor of lower

00:03:58.400 birth rates is how much education women have. 0.99

00:04:01.180 So of course, that was a question I had.

00:04:02.880 That's why I was really looking to find women who are college educated. 1.00

00:04:06.160 Not because I think college education is a great norm for human society, but because I

00:04:11.700 was looking for people who kind of beat the odds or defied that norm.

00:04:15.220 Um, and so of course, no, it wasn't a story of women who don't know what they're doing

00:04:20.660 or kind of accidentally ended up with a bunch of children.

00:04:23.480 Um, these were women with, I think, really compelling stories.

00:04:26.880 Um, and so while overall it was kind of a story of biblical faith, I would say, um, or

00:04:32.080 love in one case, a woman who really just loved her husband and he really desired a large

00:04:36.460 family.

00:04:37.340 Um, what I, what I try to explain is that each, each story is a story of meaning and purpose

00:04:42.920 and very beautiful and stands on its own.

00:04:45.680 I love this picture that you posted.

00:04:48.180 You're kind of responding to Emmanuel Macron.

00:04:50.820 I think this is full screen seven where you are clearly in graduation garb and you are holding,

00:04:58.140 let's see how many of your six children at this point.

00:05:01.060 And I, I'm guessing those are all the children that you had because the youngest looks like

00:05:04.880 a sweet little baby.

00:05:07.280 Um, so you were a very educated person and you are still in education and you.

00:05:12.540 You chose with all the education in the world to have as many children.

00:05:17.420 And so talk to me about your decision-making, you and your husband's decision-making to have

00:05:23.140 this many children.

00:05:24.060 Yeah.

00:05:24.600 Well, I grew up in a large family.

00:05:26.440 So I remember as a child, um, I was oldest of nine and I remember as a child, just thinking

00:05:33.020 the most wonderful time, the most magical time.

00:05:35.940 It was like Christmas was when a new baby came into the house.

00:05:38.920 So I was launched into adulthood with that, um, very strong sense that children were sort

00:05:44.900 of the greatest gift you could receive.

00:05:47.240 And so while I, I did feel, and I still do feel that God was calling me to use my intellectual

00:05:52.380 gifts in a way to serve the church, to serve the world, to help pursue truth and help people

00:05:57.980 live better lives, I always felt that, um, I wouldn't want to put that off.

00:06:03.500 I'm sorry.

00:06:03.920 I wouldn't want to put off having a child to do something, um, in the world.

00:06:07.880 I always thought, well, you know, I can do those things later.

00:06:11.020 So when we got married, my husband was a widower and he'd just lost his first wife to breast

00:06:15.780 cancer.

00:06:16.620 Um, and there's something about loss, which I think oftentimes helps you see the value of,

00:06:21.640 of life, value of human life.

00:06:23.320 And we thought, well, we'd just see if we could have a family right away.

00:06:26.800 And when my first child was born, I like to say, well, he was the best baby in the world.

00:06:30.820 And I thought, well, well, how soon can we have another one?

00:06:34.660 Um, and that, that, you know, that's more or less continued.

00:06:37.360 Of course, there's, there's, uh, you know, stories, ups and downs in there, but, um, ultimately

00:06:42.300 we were super blessed with eight children.

00:06:44.660 Um, and now really, honestly, it seems like, uh, I can't even believe that where that time

00:06:49.400 went.

00:06:49.900 Yeah.

00:06:50.500 And how old is your oldest and how old is your youngest?

00:06:52.580 My oldest is 24 and getting married in December.

00:06:55.680 Yes.

00:06:56.020 Um, my youngest is just turning eight this month.

00:06:58.840 Oh my goodness.

00:06:59.540 So you have such a wide range of life because you have a grandchild who's six months old

00:07:04.740 and then you've got an eight year old.

00:07:06.720 So an eight year old is like second grade.

00:07:09.100 I mean, still going through elementary school.

00:07:12.180 How does that dynamic, I've heard from a lot of moms in that same situation, either that

00:07:16.800 it keeps you young or it makes you feel like, wow, I can't believe that we're still in the

00:07:21.860 think of this.

00:07:22.580 I know.

00:07:22.920 I think, um, well, I think it's a little bit of both.

00:07:26.060 I do think it keeps you young.

00:07:27.420 I mean, there's something wonderful.

00:07:29.160 My husband says this all the time about, um, the times we get to sit with our eight year

00:07:32.940 old or I take him on bike rides and he just chatters away.

00:07:35.700 And so it does, it keeps you feeling a little bit closer to what it was like to be a young

00:07:39.640 mom.

00:07:39.960 And at the same time, when I go to church and I look at the young moms, I realize, well,

00:07:44.660 I'm not in that same stage of life anymore.

00:07:46.840 I, my children are getting married and having babies.

00:07:49.480 So, but it's just wonderful.

00:07:51.480 Um, also I want to just emphasize to the relationship between those oldest children and the youngest

00:07:57.460 children.

00:07:58.080 What a rich life my eight year old has because he has siblings, you know, working and out

00:08:03.740 of college in college, in high school, in middle school, uh, and those relationships

00:08:08.820 are really so precious.

00:08:10.220 Yeah.

00:08:10.700 Yeah.

00:08:11.140 You know, I only have three, but, and there are challenges to every transition.

00:08:15.600 There's challenges transitioning from zero to one, one to two and two to three.

00:08:19.820 And every child of course adds another logistical hurdle just when you're thinking about transportation

00:08:25.340 and nap times and schedules and things like that.

00:08:28.600 But in some ways I've thought that this was the easiest transition because my confidence

00:08:33.120 as a mom has skyrocketed, whereas my anxiety has really plummeted.

00:08:38.140 Not that I worry about nothing, but you learn through experience that more things are going

00:08:43.800 to be okay than you think.

00:08:45.080 Not that everything works out perfectly, but fewer things are a big deal than you originally

00:08:51.340 thought.

00:08:52.140 And that confidence has made motherhood this time around much easier.

00:08:58.260 Was that true for you?

00:08:59.920 Yes.

00:09:00.140 I mean, times a lot more, you know, than what I have.

00:09:03.360 A hundred percent.

00:09:03.860 And I think it's not widely known.

00:09:05.660 For me, it was my fourth.

00:09:06.920 I remember a very specific moment when I thought, this is really not like it used to be.

00:09:14.160 You know, you're kind of waiting for the shoe to drop or something.

00:09:17.320 And, you know, a couple months in thinking there's no shoe dropping.

00:09:19.800 My life hasn't changed.

00:09:21.200 And I'm just enjoying this baby.

00:09:22.800 She was my first girl.

00:09:24.020 Oh my goodness.

00:09:25.080 It was really special.

00:09:26.620 But yeah, I think that's been, at least among the women I talked to and studied, it was 0.97

00:09:30.900 really common.

00:09:32.400 And because it's not widely known, you worry, if we don't share that truth with people,

00:09:38.200 they may stop when it's still so anxiety producing.

00:09:42.360 When they might have enjoyed knowing that, you know, it gets easier.

00:09:47.180 Yeah.

00:09:47.380 It does get easier.

00:09:52.380 First sponsor for the day is Carly Jean Los Angeles.

00:09:55.720 You guys know how much I love CJLA.

00:09:58.440 I've been wearing CJLA for years.

00:10:01.120 It's just so comfortable, so versatile, so classic.

00:10:04.500 I still have pieces that I bought from CJLA five years ago.

00:10:08.660 That's the beauty of all of their pieces.

00:10:11.380 They last you through so many seasons of life, as well as so many seasons of the year.

00:10:16.760 Get yourself a capsule from Carly Jean Los Angeles, mix and match those pieces.

00:10:22.460 You'll be good to go all year long and beyond.

00:10:25.400 Plus, this is a company that shares our same values, so you can feel really good about sending

00:10:31.120 your money there.

00:10:32.220 Go to CarlyJeanLosAngeles.com.

00:10:34.340 Use promo code AllieB for 20% off your next order.

00:10:38.180 That's CarlyJeanLosAngeles.com, code AllieB.

00:10:41.000 I get this question a lot.

00:10:46.760 Yeah.

00:10:47.000 And so I'm so interested to know how you would answer it.

00:10:50.680 The question is, how do I know when to stop having babies?

00:10:56.560 Start is one thing.

00:10:58.120 That's maybe an easier question to answer.

00:11:00.860 Right.

00:11:01.020 But stop is another.

00:11:03.320 What would you tell someone?

00:11:04.960 What would I tell someone?

00:11:06.220 I guess I would say right off the bat, keep the door open.

00:11:10.320 Don't stop.

00:11:11.380 Don't close the door forever.

00:11:13.280 Wait till you're ready.

00:11:15.140 But I think the culture has really pushed us to have this idea that we can know fully.

00:11:20.160 But we know that our hearts change and that God speaks to our hearts at different times

00:11:25.460 in life.

00:11:25.860 Your capacity to have a baby is limited.

00:11:29.240 It's fleeting.

00:11:30.120 And we know so many cases and so many cases of hardship.

00:11:34.280 So it's a great gift to be able to receive life.

00:11:37.460 And if you're not ready today, you might never be ready again, in which case you'll look back

00:11:41.880 and you'll say, well, that's when I was done.

00:11:44.880 But what I heard from so many people was how much you change.

00:11:49.400 And you can think today you're done.

00:11:51.600 And I know I've been there where you think, okay, never again.

00:11:54.540 It was too hard, never again.

00:11:56.240 But then time passes.

00:11:57.700 And so the main thing I would say is to keep the door a little bit open and not to make

00:12:05.140 permanent decisions of being done.

00:12:08.040 Yeah.

00:12:08.420 Just to be a little vulnerable.

00:12:11.400 I had three really hard births.

00:12:14.260 And my first and third postpartum were really hard.

00:12:16.540 My second, I don't even know why.

00:12:17.840 It just wasn't.

00:12:18.360 It was fine.

00:12:19.240 But my first and third postpartum is really hard for different reasons.

00:12:21.900 It's physically hard, emotionally, just a lot of different things going on.

00:12:26.740 And for the past year, my husband and I have been like, we're good.

00:12:31.080 We've got these three healthy babies.

00:12:32.820 We're good.

00:12:33.400 And just the thought of putting my body through it again.

00:12:36.520 Because it was real.

00:12:37.460 And it wasn't just, oh, that was hard.

00:12:39.340 That was scary.

00:12:40.100 I don't want to go through something hard again.

00:12:41.580 It was like real physical distress.

00:12:44.440 I'm like, I don't want to do that again.

00:12:45.880 And then it's just, even though, you know, that's not, we don't know.

00:12:51.920 Yeah.

00:12:52.200 Basically, we don't know if we're done.

00:12:54.020 But I will say you already, after being a year postpartum, you feel your heart start

00:12:59.380 to open a little bit.

00:13:01.720 Like, well, maybe, maybe, maybe one day.

00:13:07.780 Yeah, maybe one day.

00:13:08.520 Whereas, you know, it's so closed off.

00:13:10.840 And I think there's even something hormonally about that, where your body is telling you

00:13:15.240 for that first year, we're good right now.

00:13:17.920 And then as the hormones start to change, it's, you know, God's way of, you know, creating

00:13:24.280 the mechanics of your body to say, well, it might not be so bad at some point.

00:13:30.040 But I do wonder how many women make permanent decisions when they're in the thick of postpartum, 1.00

00:13:36.460 thinking I can never do this because you're sleepless, your body hurts.

00:13:40.140 But then you've made this permanent decision.

00:13:42.560 And maybe a year or two or three years later, you're thinking, gosh, I actually could do

00:13:47.320 it again.

00:13:47.880 Right, right.

00:13:48.780 Or financial circumstances change, or whatever the thing that seemed too much at the time.

00:13:54.360 Um, and that to me seems like a simple, um, way to give it to God and to say, you know,

00:14:00.040 God, God changes us and he changes, um, our opportunities and our, our capacities, actually.

00:14:06.020 Um, so I think that's a beautiful, like simple idea, just not to make a permanent decision,

00:14:11.340 but the doctors and the medical industry, they do really, um, they do really push us,

00:14:17.640 especially in a vulnerable moment.

00:14:19.320 Like we know many women are offered permanent solutions right after having a baby. 1.00

00:14:23.780 Yeah.

00:14:24.380 I think that's the worst time to be making a permanent decision.

00:14:27.120 Oh yeah.

00:14:27.680 I, I remember my doctor after my first, I had two C-sections and then I had a V-back after

00:14:33.420 the two C-sections.

00:14:34.400 And I remember my doctor who pushed me into a very unnecessary C-section.

00:14:38.560 I remember asking him, well, you know, what if I want more?

00:14:42.860 And he said, uh, he said, you know, well, I really don't recommend more than three C-sections,

00:14:48.560 but who has more than three kids anyway?

00:14:50.040 And I was like, what, excuse me?

00:14:54.160 Right.

00:14:54.300 I thought that was such an odd thing to say.

00:14:56.380 Yeah.

00:14:56.520 Even if that's true that a woman doesn't want more than three, who are you to give, give 1.00

00:15:02.380 them that kind of limitation?

00:15:04.180 And so you're right.

00:15:05.680 Even women who will get pregnant with twins or triplets are very often pressured to do

00:15:10.380 a selective reduction and kill one of their babies in the womb. 0.92

00:15:13.060 Yeah. 0.98

00:15:13.240 We have, we live in such an antinatalist society.

00:15:16.300 That's right.

00:15:17.200 That's right.

00:15:17.960 Um, I think that's a hundred percent right.

00:15:20.120 And it's these little, it happens in little ways, right?

00:15:23.580 You're not going to go out to lunch and have somebody just, you know, talk to you about

00:15:27.360 how it's terrible to have kids.

00:15:28.640 Okay.

00:15:28.920 It happens sometimes, but it's these little things that we don't even notice, right?

00:15:32.480 Being encouraged to decide when you're done.

00:15:34.740 I mean, I would say, um, how many times have I been asked if I was done?

00:15:38.680 Right.

00:15:39.120 Because people see four, they see five and they go, oh, aren't you done?

00:15:42.740 Well, in a sense, isn't that pretty personal?

00:15:45.660 Isn't that between me and my husband and God?

00:15:48.180 Uh, but they want to know as if it's, um, really fascinating to them.

00:15:52.020 Well, they know they're done and how come you don't know that you're done?

00:15:54.800 You know?

00:15:55.420 So I think these are all little ways in which the culture is pretty antinatalist.

00:15:59.160 Yeah.

00:15:59.720 You know, you mentioned that you went to school and you worked even as you had children.

00:16:04.940 Can you talk through what those seasons looked like?

00:16:10.200 Because there are such different seasons and different stages of motherhood.

00:16:13.400 And how did you decide what your work and education looked like as you were raising these kids?

00:16:19.160 Yeah.

00:16:19.820 I'm glad you said seasons.

00:16:21.820 I think, um, when I talk to young women, I think that's the thing that you really want to stress

00:16:26.280 is that I think we're, as women, made for seasons.

00:16:29.180 Our bodies are cyclical and seasonal, right?

00:16:32.080 Um, and so, yeah, I think that's right for me.

00:16:34.360 Um, when I was having my babies, when, you know, they were coming, um, more close together,

00:16:40.740 my last couple were spread out.

00:16:42.220 I was still a student.

00:16:43.500 And so it's a kind of work, um, but it's not a kind of work where there are close deadlines

00:16:49.440 and, you know, hours that you have to be in the office.

00:16:51.940 So looking back, you know, you might say that for my first six children, like when you saw

00:16:56.920 that picture, that was kind of very part-time work.

00:17:00.200 Yeah.

00:17:00.540 Right.

00:17:00.720 Um, and I could control the hours that I was out of the house.

00:17:04.100 Um, and I could, I could lean into the seasons of my, my children too, right?

00:17:08.020 So when you have a baby and you're nursing and you're kind of close to home a lot.

00:17:12.880 Um, and then, uh, was my last couple for my last couple of kids, I was working as a college

00:17:18.780 teacher.

00:17:19.140 And, um, for me, it's been important to have a job where I could do much of my work from

00:17:24.660 home when my kids were little.

00:17:26.700 Um, and I, you know, I'm blessed to be able to do that.

00:17:29.580 My husband also is a college teacher.

00:17:31.780 And so he also works from home and we can sort of trade off hours.

00:17:35.520 Yeah.

00:17:35.920 So, I mean, those are big blessings that kind of work that we do is pretty flexible.

00:17:40.040 I was going to ask just how kind of you logistically managed that.

00:17:44.060 Was it just kind of you and your husband trading hours and making it work?

00:17:47.520 Yes.

00:17:48.500 Yes.

00:17:48.860 Mostly.

00:17:49.360 I mean, of course we've had, we've had older children be babysitters from time to time.

00:17:53.620 Um, and occasionally we've, we've, we've always worked at colleges.

00:17:56.660 So we've had college students come and help from time to time.

00:17:59.920 Um, but, uh, for us, that was the best decision for us was to be with our kids, but to take

00:18:05.680 turns.

00:18:06.380 Yeah.

00:18:06.760 Yeah.

00:18:06.940 I think there is, especially in the Christian world, such a debate over stay at home mom

00:18:11.760 versus working mom, as if they're these like two clean cut black and white.

00:18:17.520 White categories.

00:18:18.700 Right.

00:18:19.140 As if you can't do both.

00:18:21.420 And it's like moms who say have a professor job or a podcasting job, even if they spend

00:18:27.680 a ton of time at home are still considered working moms. 1.00

00:18:30.940 Whereas say the mom who has an Etsy shop from home is considered to stay at home mom, but

00:18:36.980 both might spend equal times with their kids.

00:18:39.700 But we've kind of created these categories that makes women think it's all or nothing 1.00

00:18:45.960 at any time.

00:18:47.500 And that's, I don't know if throughout history, that's necessarily what motherhood has looked

00:18:51.980 like.

00:18:52.460 No, I think motherhood has throughout history looked a lot like the kind of thing we're

00:18:56.100 describing a kind of, um, there's need, your children make demands on our time.

00:19:01.820 But of course, women have always engaged in the enterprise of the home, whether it was 1.00

00:19:06.620 their husband's occupation, their own occupation, making textiles or clothing at home.

00:19:10.800 Right.

00:19:11.300 And, um, I think it's maybe a by-product of the industrial revolution when we think that

00:19:16.980 work involves going to a factory.

00:19:18.580 Um, and that we're just, we're kind of still struggling with this, but we're really in

00:19:22.740 an economy now that doesn't look like that anymore.

00:19:25.600 So we have this kind of odd dichotomy between there's work and there's home.

00:19:29.920 And yet, um, a lot of the work I do, I'm doing right with my kids in a sense, right?

00:19:34.640 Exactly.

00:19:35.220 Um, my husband is also a college teacher.

00:19:37.180 So what work looks like for us a lot is reading books.

00:19:39.800 Yeah.

00:19:40.180 So actually, you know, this is the life of our home and it's almost a family business.

00:19:45.260 Yeah.

00:19:45.700 Yeah.

00:19:45.900 And there are certain jobs and certain ways to work that are not really conducive to being

00:19:51.460 present with kids, but not all work has to look like, as you said, going to a factory

00:19:56.680 for 10 hours a day.

00:19:57.720 That's right.

00:19:58.380 Well, and that insight I think leads to the kind of thing that, um, I think women in my 1.00

00:20:03.220 stage of life, it's good to say to younger women, look, I mean, if you have choices when

00:20:07.700 you're young and you know, you want to have children, you know, think about the kinds of

00:20:12.880 options for your professional work, which will be flexible in that way that you could

00:20:16.860 do partially from home.

00:20:18.120 You could blend with your motherhood.

00:20:20.340 Um, it's, you know, because of the way our modern life is and the culture, you have to

00:20:25.300 plan for having children, right?

00:20:28.160 They aren't just going to be a part of life that we plan around.

00:20:30.920 I think like our grandmothers did.

00:20:32.560 Um, and so if you plan for it, um, it can, it can be much easier.

00:20:37.660 I mean, I knew as a college student and so, uh, that I'd like to have children.

00:20:41.740 So I thought, well, there's a lot of ways I could use my talents that would be, that

00:20:45.620 would put me in a position of having to choose between an office and my home.

00:20:49.900 Yeah.

00:20:50.260 And I don't want to do that.

00:20:51.580 So you were strategic in choosing the kind of work that would allow the flexibility,

00:20:57.840 which is what I, you know, I would say that too.

00:21:00.400 Yeah, for sure.

00:21:00.840 Yeah, exactly.

00:21:01.900 And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:21:03.000 In fact, it's something that if we don't, if we don't encourage each other to do it,

00:21:07.120 you know, nobody else will.

00:21:08.580 Nobody in school or my college or my university ever suggested, you know, you, you have a degree

00:21:14.340 in math and economics.

00:21:15.260 You could go into finance or wall street or something at bank.

00:21:18.700 Um, but maybe you should also consider options that involve more, um, more blended work.

00:21:24.980 And so if it hadn't come from my family background, I don't think I would have known it.

00:21:30.200 Yeah.

00:21:30.940 Right.

00:21:31.440 Um, so we have to say these things out loud.

00:21:38.540 I love Adele natural cosmetics.

00:21:40.860 I've been using them for a few years now, and it's really been a game changer for my skin.

00:21:45.800 As you age, being moisturized gets more and more important.

00:21:49.660 And that's why I love their essential cleanser, their essential moisturizer.

00:21:53.560 I use it every day.

00:21:56.000 Their oil-based cleanser has really changed the texture of my skin for the better.

00:22:00.800 I also love their blue lagoon line.

00:22:02.940 It's really luxurious.

00:22:04.720 All of this is completely holistic, all natural products.

00:22:08.640 And this is a company that is completely unashamed of their pro-life values of their faith.

00:22:13.380 They live it out in everything.

00:22:14.900 They make everything.

00:22:15.660 They say everything they do.

00:22:17.020 So go to Adele natural cosmetics. 0.85

00:22:19.220 You can use code Allie at checkout.

00:22:20.920 You'll get 25% off your first-time order.

00:22:23.660 That's Adele natural cosmetics.com code Allie. 0.99

00:22:26.400 We do hear that motherhood is economically disadvantageous for women.

00:22:36.980 And in fact, when we hear administrations talking about adding jobs or bouncing back from economic

00:22:45.300 malaise, they will say, we have this many women back in the workforce. 1.00

00:22:50.080 Or they'll talk about, oh, so many women left the workforce during COVID as if it's this horrible

00:22:56.360 thing.

00:22:57.100 But women working full-time and either putting off motherhood or not being with their children 1.00

00:23:05.580 is not necessarily a sign of economic health in a country, right?

00:23:10.320 Right.

00:23:11.000 Wow.

00:23:11.420 This is very interesting.

00:23:12.380 At the moment, where we are, many countries with their falling birth rates, we really kind

00:23:20.460 of, we view, it's almost a Marxian view.

00:23:26.240 We view kind of full employment of every able-bodied man, woman, and child, except we don't employ 0.99

00:23:31.140 our children anymore.

00:23:32.480 We'd like to have all the bodies, you know, in the workforce.

00:23:36.300 But no, the life cycle for women, of course, is very interesting.

00:23:39.720 I like to think about some of the Olympic athlete stories that we know of, women who

00:23:44.380 had their babies and then came back to participate in track and field events or whatever.

00:23:49.380 And sometimes you see these cases where women who come back after having babies achieve personal

00:23:54.860 bests later, right?

00:23:56.520 And I think actually that's a good model for us because women often, after having children, 1.00

00:24:03.460 are very productive.

00:24:04.320 So the productivity of our, of our life cycle is, again, it's seasonal, can be seasonal.

00:24:11.260 And then one more thing on that, right?

00:24:13.660 When a woman has babies, she's contributing workers in the next generation. 1.00

00:24:18.720 And so what we often see when we hear policymakers say, talking about keeping women in the workforce

00:24:24.140 or protecting women in the workforce, it's a little bit of a short-sighted vision, right? 1.00

00:24:29.160 Right.

00:24:29.360 Because women spending more time in the workforce, say, in ways that make it harder for them 1.00

00:24:35.200 to have children, reduces the available workers in the next generation. 0.57

00:24:39.680 And I think we're kind of, I think we have to accept that the crunch we're seeing now

00:24:42.980 in birth rates has something to do with that.

00:24:45.220 Yeah.

00:24:45.900 Yeah.

00:24:46.220 Because you said there are so many falling birth rates around the world.

00:24:49.760 It's not just the United States, but obviously Canada.

00:24:53.020 We see that in many Asian countries.

00:24:55.080 And as you're writing your book and as you've looked at this, what do you think is really

00:24:59.740 driving that?

00:25:00.860 Yeah.

00:25:01.660 Well, I guess I would like to say that I think the thing that's driving it is big and sort

00:25:07.620 of, it's big and structural.

00:25:09.480 And it's obviously something that's common to all the countries, right?

00:25:12.960 It's not just the socialist countries or the Western, more free countries.

00:25:16.780 It's happening everywhere.

00:25:17.800 So it really is, I think, best explained, the fall is best explained by the sort of the

00:25:24.300 economic logic going against children today.

00:25:27.160 What do I mean by that?

00:25:28.160 I don't mean that anybody, it's sort of an evil genius is up, you know, in an office saying,

00:25:32.200 you know, we're going to penalize people for having kids, but kids aren't labor for the 0.99

00:25:35.620 household anymore.

00:25:36.640 And they aren't our old age support anymore.

00:25:39.900 Right?

00:25:40.060 So for each individual household, children don't add any sort of economic rationality.

00:25:44.540 Um, and then, you know, once you had the sort of, we'll say the, um, the women's revolution

00:25:50.500 of the 20th century, opening up all these different job opportunities, maybe a more fine

00:25:55.680 tuned ability to control our reproductive lives. 0.83

00:25:58.060 Um, they introduce a new cost, not a budgetary crunch, but an opportunity cost.

00:26:04.460 So women are choosing between two, let's say great things, two great things. 1.00

00:26:10.140 So how they rank those two things will, will be the difference.

00:26:13.260 So overall you have that children are less valuable to the household.

00:26:17.180 And that's true everywhere you go, um, because of old age programs, because children don't 0.63

00:26:21.980 work for the household.

00:26:23.100 And then now they're a cost in terms of women's income. 1.00

00:26:27.680 And so that's, what's driving falling birth rates.

00:26:30.620 And it's pretty, it's pretty universal.

00:26:32.600 It's happening in every continent that we know of.

00:26:35.800 And, um, so this is where this inquiry became important to ask, well, is it, is it, um, does

00:26:43.820 it have to happen this way or where, who, who are the people still having children?

00:26:48.700 Right.

00:26:49.260 And so in that, in the face of that kind of economic logic against children, what I discovered

00:26:54.300 is a spiritual logic in favor of children.

00:26:56.800 Um, yeah.

00:26:57.780 And that's what I was going to ask.

00:26:59.300 Is it possible to change the falling birth rates without a spiritual reawakening?

00:27:04.720 Because you mentioned the spiritual aspects being the driving force between women or behind 1.00

00:27:09.480 women having children.

00:27:11.600 Well, I have to imagine that the increased secularism has also contributed to this antinatalist

00:27:18.040 mentality, replacing kids with pets or with careers or whatever it is.

00:27:24.240 Um, so I just, cause we're not going back to pre-industrial America where we're in an

00:27:31.440 agricultural society where you need your kids, you know, milling wheat for you and all of

00:27:36.380 that stuff.

00:27:37.040 Milking the cows.

00:27:37.860 Yes.

00:27:39.020 Most of us are going to live in the post-industrial world, unless you're someone like Hannah Nealman

00:27:44.260 and you're living on a farm.

00:27:46.120 Most of us are still going to be, you know, in this technological world where parents are

00:27:54.240 constantly feel overstimulated.

00:27:56.020 They constantly feel distracted.

00:27:57.820 They constantly feel pulled in a million different directions.

00:28:00.340 So it's hard for me to see how we're going to reverse that trend.

00:28:05.120 That's right.

00:28:05.700 Well, I think spiritual renewal is the reversal.

00:28:08.460 I mean, I, I don't see another way.

00:28:10.600 Um, I say at the, at the end that after talking to all of these people, I'm just really struck

00:28:15.820 by the extent to which, um, we might just call it old fashioned biblical values, uh, seem to

00:28:22.060 be an adequate and not just adequate, but actually a, a super impressive motive to have

00:28:28.060 children.

00:28:28.680 Um, kind of a simple trust that God says children are blessings.

00:28:32.900 And, um, as one woman said to me, well, the three big blessings we have from God are health

00:28:39.160 and wealth and children.

00:28:41.000 And the greatest of these is children.

00:28:43.180 And she paused and she said, and I don't think you could have too much of any of these things.

00:28:48.640 And I thought, oh, that's a really beautiful way of putting it.

00:28:51.720 So if you really did view children as wealth, which is what the scriptures say, right, then

00:28:57.320 you would arrange your life to get more of that kind of wealth.

00:29:00.980 Right.

00:29:01.120 And so when I say this is the spiritual awakening is a, is a viable path, it seems like this

00:29:08.560 is the case, um, among women of many faiths, but, um, who are all anchored in those biblical,

00:29:13.620 biblical truths.

00:29:14.680 And they really did, they believe them in a, in a simple way, but in a very serious way.

00:29:19.480 Um, I think that's good news though.

00:29:21.940 I think it's like really good news and very interesting.

00:29:24.940 And it's also always comforting to think that all of the issues that we're talking about,

00:29:30.180 whether it's anti-baby culture, anti-natalism, they're not new, they take on new forms.

00:29:35.700 That's right.

00:29:36.320 But even if you look back at the early Roman empire, the babies who are abandoned through

00:29:40.960 exposure because the parents couldn't take care of them.

00:29:44.280 And then Christians came along and said, nope, we're not doing that anymore. 1.00

00:29:47.860 We're going to value these kids.

00:29:49.620 So it does seem like it is still 2000 years later, the Christian responsibility to oppose 1.00

00:29:55.680 the culture of death, the culture of childlessness and the culture of anti-natalism.

00:30:01.360 I think that's so correct.

00:30:02.840 Um, I'm so glad that you mentioned the history because I think that people naively look back

00:30:07.680 and they say, well, in the past people valued children and today we don't.

00:30:11.160 And I think there's a, there's a way in which that's true.

00:30:14.080 There was more economic value that children had, but did people value children always forever

00:30:18.660 for their own sakes?

00:30:19.780 And I think that that's the, that's always been a note of Christianity, right?

00:30:25.240 Because God came to earth as a, as a human infant, right?

00:30:28.880 He didn't have to do it that way, right?

00:30:30.660 We know that he's God, but he chose to have a mother and to come into our midst as a baby.

00:30:37.960 So yeah, Christianity has always, um, stood for the value of the child as a, a weak, you 0.53

00:30:45.120 know, needy, um, crying infant.

00:30:48.340 Um, and I think it's like a great time to rediscover that.

00:30:52.300 Yeah.

00:30:52.820 Yeah.

00:30:53.140 It's so true. 0.84

00:30:53.900 I'm, I'm thinking just as you were talking about how God's people were always the one

00:30:58.980 standing against the destruction of children, like even going back to the Hebrew midwives 0.80

00:31:05.520 when the Egyptians were trying to kill all the babies, you know, under two years old and

00:31:11.880 they would, the Hebrew midwives saving those babies.

00:31:14.640 Right.

00:31:14.900 When you think about God instructing is the Israelites not to fellowship with the people

00:31:20.220 who were giving their babies to Moloch.

00:31:22.140 To Moloch.

00:31:23.320 Yeah.

00:31:23.600 Um, and then of course, as you said, Jesus coming to the earth is an embryo.

00:31:27.740 Yes.

00:31:27.980 Heralded by the kicks of John the Baptist in Elizabeth's stomach.

00:31:31.560 Yes.

00:31:31.860 And then even, you know, Jesus chastising his own disciples, disciples, products of their 0.99

00:31:36.440 time who said, we don't want the children bothering this.

00:31:39.860 That's right.

00:31:40.260 You know, our teacher.

00:31:41.300 And then he said, no, no, no, no.

00:31:43.280 Yeah.

00:31:43.500 Let the little children come to me for such as these belong, the kingdom of heaven. 0.65

00:31:46.680 And like Christians who carried, who followed that man, that God man, that mentality, bursting 0.82

00:31:53.180 onto the scene of the Roman empire, which said, oh, people are, you know, valued by their

00:31:58.320 logos and kids don't have that.

00:32:00.480 Right.

00:32:00.760 Well, the capital L logos, the word made flesh who dwelt among us said, no, that doesn't

00:32:06.620 determine their worth.

00:32:07.560 I do.

00:32:08.400 Yeah.

00:32:08.560 That changed the world and it should still.

00:32:11.400 It should still and it can still.

00:32:13.920 That's why I think this is really good news, right?

00:32:16.040 It's, it's actually still possible to arrange your life, to welcome life today.

00:32:20.740 And we know it's possible for women who are in crisis pregnancies.

00:32:23.860 It's possible for those of us facing, you know, high housing costs or whatever those

00:32:28.080 things are.

00:32:28.840 And, um, and that's, that's a new, that's a gospel.

00:32:32.380 Like it's a kind of nugget of good news.

00:32:35.440 I really feel that.

00:32:36.800 Um, and, and if we talk more about that and encourage it more, um, and, you know, lean

00:32:43.380 into our evangelization, we could see these things, um, improving.

00:32:47.700 Yeah.

00:32:52.080 Okay.

00:32:52.680 After years of eating good ranchers, pretty much every day in this ducky home, I finally

00:32:58.540 have my own alley box.

00:33:01.000 Let me tell you what's in it because this is the stuff that we're eating all the time in

00:33:05.900 our house.

00:33:06.380 So in my box, you get four, five ounce chicken breasts, two, one pound ground beef patties

00:33:14.700 and eight, six ounce, uh, wagyu steaks to 18 ounce bone-in ribeyes.

00:33:23.420 Okay.

00:33:23.860 So that is my box.

00:33:25.680 It's amazing.

00:33:26.620 There's so much that you can make with this.

00:33:28.680 This is all American meat.

00:33:31.140 No matter what box you get, it's always going to be all American. 0.98

00:33:34.260 It shows up on your front door, on dry ice, vacuum sealed.

00:33:39.120 It makes your life so much easier and healthier.

00:33:41.920 If you go to go to ranchers.com, actually go.goodranchers.com slash alley, you can get my box.

00:33:49.100 You get $25 off any order that you make with my code alley, go to go.goodranchers.com slash

00:33:56.960 alley code alley. 0.98

00:33:58.180 You know, it's so, it's sad when I see on social media, whenever there's a picture of

00:34:07.960 a mom with a bunch of kids, typically if it's more than three, the comments, a lot of the

00:34:13.380 comments are happy, of course, but then comments like, are you not done yet?

00:34:16.480 Are you finished?

00:34:17.420 Do we really need more kids?

00:34:18.720 It's this, you know, same age old Malthusian dread of, and you know, Satan hates children,

00:34:25.620 so it goes back forever.

00:34:26.700 I think it does.

00:34:27.360 But you know, Thomas Malthus and Bill Gates and Warren Buffett and Margaret Sanger, all these

00:34:32.160 people believed in, you know, this overpopulation myth.

00:34:36.200 Right.

00:34:37.000 Yeah.

00:34:37.280 I think it's important to, and as you say, to recognize it, it's of a piece with Satan

00:34:42.740 and it goes all the way back.

00:34:45.560 But when I think about Malthus and Margaret Sanger and eugenics movement, I think that what 0.52

00:34:52.500 kept coming to me when I talked to all of these women who represent like the other thing was 1.00

00:34:58.500 the substitution of human wisdom for divine wisdom.

00:35:02.960 Right.

00:35:03.400 And I thought, well, it seems, you know, so Malthus is there saying, well, you know, what

00:35:06.980 do you mean we can just welcome all the babies?

00:35:08.660 Like we can't welcome all the babies, right?

00:35:10.320 And then, you know, of course we see this later and then of course it gets very dark.

00:35:13.320 Well, who are the right babies to welcome? 0.89

00:35:16.040 Right.

00:35:16.860 Eugenics. 0.69

00:35:17.300 Right.

00:35:17.560 Who are the right babies to welcome? 0.97

00:35:20.220 Who are the right people to have children? 0.71

00:35:22.540 And all of that's, you know, terribly evil.

00:35:25.240 But, you know, God is asking us to trust him, right?

00:35:29.080 He's asking us to trust him.

00:35:30.060 It might look as if you can't afford that child, but the child is wanted by God and loved

00:35:35.700 by God and God's providence will provide for that child.

00:35:39.460 So it's really, I think the smarter we get as a society, we can, you know, I don't know

00:35:44.940 what the most smart thing we do today is, right?

00:35:47.320 But we have all of this technology and all these neat things.

00:35:49.500 It becomes, I think, a little bit harder to trust that God's wisdom is really vastly

00:35:55.080 superior to our wisdom.

00:35:56.800 Yeah.

00:35:57.300 And obviously Malthus didn't take into account that human beings actually were contributors.

00:36:04.640 We're not just drain on resources, but we come up with more efficient ways to distribute

00:36:08.500 resources.

00:36:09.140 We're a credit to society, not just a debit.

00:36:12.400 But even beyond that, because humans aren't measured by their productivity or their innovation,

00:36:17.720 that's part of it.

00:36:18.860 But this concept of the Imago Dei is just really tough for the secular world to understand.

00:36:26.360 And they really also don't understand that, like, it is uniquely the United States who understood

00:36:33.220 that we were all created as just being a creation by God.

00:36:39.680 We were endowed with this certain inalienable rights.

00:36:43.040 Other societies really don't measure someone's rights or humanity or value based on the fact

00:36:48.940 that they just exist.

00:36:50.380 But America at least understood that fundamentally.

00:36:54.100 And that's what changed Western civilization.

00:36:56.900 That's right.

00:36:57.280 And people just don't make those connections, but it's really all connected.

00:37:01.160 Yeah, it is connected.

00:37:02.080 I was also thinking when you were talking about how children aren't just consuming resources,

00:37:07.160 they're contributing, right?

00:37:08.660 And one of the neatest things that I heard when I was talking to women was the way in 1.00

00:37:12.740 which unexpectedly children didn't just bring, you know, maybe arrive with a, what they say

00:37:18.200 the proverb, children arrive with a loaf of bread under their arms.

00:37:22.500 But that sometimes that loaf of bread or the way they contribute is also spiritual.

00:37:27.200 So I heard all these stories of people welcoming babies, perhaps in unexpected times.

00:37:32.080 And then discovering their babies brought, right, not just an augmentation of resources,

00:37:37.160 but joy or healing for, you know, spiritual, psychological healing.

00:37:42.800 And that was something that really took my breath away.

00:37:45.240 It's not something I expected to hear.

00:37:46.940 And again, it just kind of prodded me to this idea.

00:37:51.080 What are we missing when we substitute our wisdom?

00:37:53.880 You know, this is what I can afford.

00:37:55.320 This is what we can afford.

00:37:56.900 This is how much, how many children the country can have, right?

00:38:00.220 When we substitute that idea, our wisdom for God's wisdom, what are we missing?

00:38:05.640 Yeah.

00:38:06.960 Um, a lot of people say, well, the reason why people aren't, women aren't having children 1.00

00:38:12.120 is because there's not paid maternal leave in the United States or mandated to pay maternal

00:38:18.040 leave. 0.99

00:38:18.980 And we need more, we need paid maternal leave. 1.00

00:38:21.580 We need baby bonuses. 1.00

00:38:23.540 We need what's seen as kind of these pronatal policies.

00:38:26.560 What are your thoughts on those things?

00:38:27.800 Do they work?

00:38:28.520 Well, um, they haven't really worked very well in the past.

00:38:32.820 So countries have tried these for almost 40 years.

00:38:36.160 Um, you know, notably the countries like in Asia, where the birth dearth has come sooner,

00:38:41.040 came sooner, um, countries in Europe.

00:38:43.400 Um, and you know, so all over the place of different types, um, they haven't worked well.

00:38:49.040 Uh, there's not, to my knowledge, any example of a country that's meaningfully reversed its

00:38:53.460 birth rates through baby bonuses or, you know, other kinds of policies.

00:38:58.520 That doesn't mean that some of these policies might not be good to implement.

00:39:02.200 They might be family friendly or they might be, you know, good for, good for people at

00:39:06.740 a particular time and place, but they aren't going to be particularly useful for reversing

00:39:11.360 the birth rate because at least my research suggests it's, it's the way people value children.

00:39:17.400 It's the, it's the willingness to see the good of a child as bigger than all of those sort

00:39:23.200 of personal costs and hardships.

00:39:25.080 The ones we talked about earlier, they're real, they're tough.

00:39:28.520 Um, so what, what drives you?

00:39:30.900 Yeah.

00:39:31.100 So I guess, you know, in a economic language, I'd say it's like a question of demand.

00:39:36.540 Women around the country having children against the odds or against the trend, I mean, they,

00:39:43.160 they face a lot of the same costs as other women. 1.00

00:39:45.440 So again, it might be a very good idea to implement some of these policies.

00:39:51.580 I'm somewhat agnostic about most of them.

00:39:54.120 I don't study them directly, but I have studied the way in which they haven't really worked

00:39:58.100 to turn birth rates around.

00:39:59.500 The thing that I look forward to every single morning is my coffee.

00:40:08.000 I just like black coffee.

00:40:09.880 And so it's got to taste really good without any sugars or creamers.

00:40:14.360 And that's why I love seven weeks coffee.

00:40:16.300 It's so high quality, the highest quality coffee that you can get.

00:40:19.720 It's great tasting.

00:40:21.160 We absolutely love it in our home.

00:40:22.680 But my favorite thing about it is that this is a pro-life coffee company.

00:40:26.500 It's called seven weeks coffee because it's seven weeks gestation.

00:40:29.600 That baby inside the womb is the size of a little coffee bean. 0.99

00:40:33.660 They donate a portion of every sale to pro-life organizations.

00:40:38.600 They've donated over $500,000 to pro-life organizations across the country.

00:40:44.080 This is translated into saving thousands of lives by providing life-saving ultrasounds and

00:40:49.160 other resources to pregnant moms in need.

00:40:51.280 And so your coffee can actually serve a higher purpose.

00:40:54.040 Plus, when you join their Heartbeat Club, you save every month on that coffee.

00:40:58.080 And then when you use my code Allie, you also get an additional 10% off.

00:41:05.740 So if you go to 7weeks.com, code Allie, you'll get that discount.

00:41:10.840 7weeks.com, code Allie.

00:41:12.780 Do you think that childlessness is contributing to just, it seems like, the explosion of dependence

00:41:25.540 on SSRIs, especially among women, anxiety, depression, deaths of despair?

00:41:31.220 I mean, it's women over 40 that really are taking, it seems, the lion's share of these 1.00

00:41:36.880 antidepressant, anti-anxiety medications.

00:41:40.620 Do you think this, the childlessness and those mental health issues go hand in hand?

00:41:45.900 I think we really need to ask the question.

00:41:49.240 So I'm not an expert on the connection between those two things, but it was, it came out of

00:41:53.900 my conversations with so many people that I think the language a lot of people used was

00:41:59.560 sort of like, a baby is like a sun lamp.

00:42:02.940 I definitely suffer from lack of sun in the winter.

00:42:06.800 You know, I feel that maybe I would be better off in Texas or Florida.

00:42:09.800 But, you know, that idea that sort of, there's something about babies who, I mean, what, what

00:42:15.320 do you need when you're depressed in a sense?

00:42:17.020 You need, you need unconditional affirmation and babies, I mean, boy, they unconditionally

00:42:24.060 love us.

00:42:25.080 We're weak and we're not perfect moms and not perfect dads, but babies do.

00:42:29.700 So, you know, it's hard not to see those two trends as being certainly occurring at the

00:42:34.920 same time.

00:42:35.860 We've seen, and of course, you know, there's other contributing factors.

00:42:39.440 I certainly love the research by Jonathan Haidt on smartphones and technology.

00:42:45.100 I think there's multiple factors here, but I looked at my testimonies and I thought, wait

00:42:51.140 a minute, what the women are saying is that they have lots of anecdotal evidence from their

00:42:57.620 families that their children are a source of anti-anxiety, that their children are a source 0.99

00:43:04.620 of peace and joy, especially for the people in their homes that are most likely to be struggling.

00:43:11.280 So who we think about, like young teenagers who are, you know, lacking confidence, struggling

00:43:17.020 with acne for the first time, wondering if their friends still like them at school.

00:43:22.340 And worse, you know, of course, I'm, I'm just touching the surface.

00:43:25.520 And so I, I scratched my head and I thought, well, is anybody looking at this question?

00:43:31.140 Yeah.

00:43:31.400 And I don't think it's being looked at.

00:43:32.760 So I think it's certainly worth asking.

00:43:34.740 Yeah.

00:43:35.380 Yeah.

00:43:35.680 I think anytime we replace, we replace something with something lesser.

00:43:42.680 So our, we have a desire and instead of fulfilling that desire with the object of our desire,

00:43:50.900 we get a last thing.

00:43:52.220 And C.S. Lewis talks about that and for loves, there are higher loves and there are lower

00:43:57.640 loves.

00:43:58.280 Like lust is not a replacement for love, even in marriage that, you know, hot and steamy

00:44:04.000 romance that you feel at the very beginning.

00:44:05.880 You literally can't, that cannot be sustained forever or else you'll never eat or never sleep.

00:44:10.420 It's replaced with something much deeper.

00:44:12.780 All of our desire for heaven to be known, to be loved, to be fully seen, that really

00:44:19.860 can only be found in God.

00:44:21.680 We're constantly looking for it in the wrong places.

00:44:26.460 And I also see this in motherhood.

00:44:29.440 I think that all of us, I mean, maybe there are some exceptions, but generally speaking,

00:44:34.680 and you know, I'm a mom of three girls and I have lots of nephews.

00:44:38.560 And so I see the differences with my, with my girls, everything turns into a mommy, daddy,

00:44:43.880 baby.

00:44:44.320 It doesn't matter if it's three rocks, everything is a mommy, daddy, baby.

00:44:47.800 Whereas with my nephews, everything is a gun.

00:44:50.520 Like, it's just so funny.

00:44:52.360 The differences, but from such a young age, it's caretaking, it's homemaking, it's arranging.

00:44:59.140 And I didn't teach them these things.

00:45:01.120 They have plenty of access to all kinds of toys and stuff.

00:45:05.280 But all, I mean, I, I was like that too, loved dolls, loved, you know, arranging the families

00:45:11.580 and thinking about my wedding and all of the stuff from such a young age.

00:45:15.600 There is this mothering instinct in virtually every girl and either by choice or maybe just

00:45:24.700 by the circumstances of their life.

00:45:26.600 Many women, probably more women than ever from, you know, contrasting to the, our human history. 1.00

00:45:36.460 They're not getting married and they're not having kids, but that mothering desire and

00:45:42.320 instinct that you've had since being a baby doesn't go away.

00:45:46.060 And so you either acknowledge that and say, I don't have what I want, but I trust God,

00:45:52.340 which I think is the best place to be when you're disappointed or you're suppressing that.

00:45:58.340 And you're saying, I don't even really want kids and I'm going to replace it with my career.

00:46:03.540 I'm going to replace it with my dog.

00:46:05.260 I'm going to replace it with myself and self-care.

00:46:07.980 And that's going to lead, I think this is just personal opinion, to depression and anxiety

00:46:16.740 because nothing, and I think a lot of people don't realize they are channeling their natural

00:46:21.280 mothering instinct into their dog and they don't think of it that way.

00:46:26.660 But I even remember that before I had kids, like how obsessed I was with my pets.

00:46:30.400 And then my kids came and I was like, to my cats, like, I don't even care.

00:46:34.520 Um, so I think that that's a lot of what's happening too.

00:46:39.200 Well, yeah.

00:46:40.160 And if I can go a step further, you know, I think women also mother at their workplaces.

00:46:46.340 Yes, totally.

00:46:47.420 They mother through politics and sort of social justice causes.

00:46:51.000 Yes.

00:46:51.400 And to borrow a phrase, kind of toxic empathy.

00:46:53.920 Yes.

00:46:54.300 Right.

00:46:54.440 Because we are meant to have these incredible empathy muscles, right?

00:46:58.220 I mean, this is part of being a great mom is, you know, you can just look at that three

00:47:01.520 year old and like, oh, I get it.

00:47:02.700 You're having such a rough day.

00:47:03.720 Yeah.

00:47:04.520 Oh, that is the worst and most disappointing thing that's ever happened to you.

00:47:07.680 You didn't get the cheese chunkies that you wanted.

00:47:10.200 So, but when we take that empathy that's meant to, um, really identify with our children

00:47:17.240 as they're young and, and immature and help them nurture them into adulthood, we start

00:47:22.400 to apply that to other things.

00:47:23.880 I think that's a big piece of, uh, the kinds of problems that you've talked about.

00:47:28.500 And that, um, I think we're seeing parts of this, you know, misplaced social justice

00:47:33.500 movement, I think is it's women mothering in a way that, you know, that they can't mother. 0.94

00:47:40.040 We have the exact same thought.

00:47:42.260 I think that that misplaced mothering absolutely manifests itself in a lot of women who would 1.00

00:47:50.060 probably call themselves liberal women thinking that they are defending the least of these

00:47:56.240 are the most vulnerable because they believe that whatever victim or proclaimed victim that

00:48:02.360 the media hoists up needs their defense, needs their nurturing.

00:48:06.920 And yeah, that's, I think that that is a huge part of it.

00:48:11.040 Yeah.

00:48:11.220 I also think for women, cause there, there will be women that God doesn't give children 1.00

00:48:15.120 or they don't marry and they might be thinking, well, what about me?

00:48:18.900 I'd love to have kids, but I don't.

00:48:20.420 But there are kids still that need your love, whether it's at church or mentorship programs,

00:48:27.420 there's lots of ways to do that.

00:48:29.300 Fostering and adoption.

00:48:30.700 I mean, this country, we should, we are a Christian country and we should have no children 1.00

00:48:34.480 left in foster care.

00:48:36.200 There should, we should be, we should open our homes as much as we can.

00:48:40.760 Um, I agree with this completely.

00:48:42.040 And of course, the sad thing is that if, if you are exercising your empathy muscles through

00:48:47.000 social justice causes or whatever they might be, or at the workplace, those things don't,

00:48:51.900 they're, they're not as, um, they're not as naturally fulfilling to us, which leads us

00:48:55.960 back to where you started this question of, um, is this fueling our anxiety and our depression

00:49:00.140 a little bit?

00:49:01.080 Now, these are really big questions, but I think they're questions we're not asking into

00:49:06.240 our, to our peril.

00:49:08.100 They're also very awkward questions.

00:49:09.960 I would say for a country that's, um, has been committed to abortion rights.

00:49:15.940 Exactly.

00:49:17.000 Yep.

00:49:18.220 And I just, I just think that motherhood in general just like makes us better.

00:49:24.460 I have, you know, before I had kids worked in a lot of different kinds of jobs, but nothing

00:49:30.320 has made me better at customer service or team building or management or time management

00:49:38.560 or organization or communication or true compassion than having children.

00:49:44.700 You got multiple personalities, sometimes competing against each other, sometimes in one child.

00:49:51.240 Yes.

00:49:51.840 Yes.

00:49:52.360 And you are learning all day, every day, which battles to pick and, you know, where to draw

00:49:59.800 boundaries, how to solve problems, how to put out fires, and then also trying to make

00:50:04.920 them into people that other people like.

00:50:06.840 Yeah.

00:50:07.060 And it's a lot, but I feel like motherhood just matured me so incredibly much.

00:50:14.700 I think I am so much better.

00:50:16.880 Yeah.

00:50:17.160 So much more patient.

00:50:18.340 Yes.

00:50:18.620 So much kinder as a person and so much more understanding of so many different kinds of

00:50:23.400 people since becoming a mom.

00:50:24.960 Right.

00:50:25.440 And people don't think that, but it stretches you.

00:50:27.880 It does.

00:50:28.360 It stretches your mind, your ability to multitask in ways that it's just hard to even explain.

00:50:34.320 Right.

00:50:34.860 Right.

00:50:35.640 I certainly heard that.

00:50:37.760 Early on, I used the language I used to say, well, you know, the moms talked about how their

00:50:42.240 children rescued them from selfishness and individualism.

00:50:45.880 Yes.

00:50:46.460 And people said, well, that's kind of harsh.

00:50:48.080 You know, like, are you saying people are selfish?

00:50:50.320 And I'm saying, I said, well, this is what women said of themselves. 1.00

00:50:53.400 Yeah.

00:50:53.640 What they said is when I look back, I didn't know that I was selfish.

00:50:58.720 And maybe it was a kind of accidental selfishness.

00:51:01.820 I mean, you're just looking after yourself because that's all you have to do.

00:51:05.140 And then when you have, you know, all of these personalities and all the things you just

00:51:09.020 described, all of a sudden you realize you actually have a, you can grow an incredible

00:51:13.960 capacity to think about other people and still to get your needs met because that's,

00:51:18.180 you know, kind of a multiplication of the loaves of the fishes, I think.

00:51:21.040 Um, and then, but then you're so grateful, right?

00:51:24.260 You look back and you go, wow, I really grew.

00:51:25.900 I mean, cause which of us doesn't long for growth experiences that are, that are really

00:51:31.060 quite positive.

00:51:32.140 It's just that it's pretty, um, scary to sign up for that.

00:51:35.880 Yeah.

00:51:36.380 Yeah, absolutely.

00:51:41.960 So right now we're seeing all of this craziness with the port strikes and you might be worried

00:51:47.700 about getting medication you need.

00:51:49.860 It's going to affect so much.

00:51:51.360 You need an emergency supply kit, an emergency medicine supply kit from Jace Medical.

00:51:57.680 Go ahead and get a Jace daily kit.

00:51:59.780 That is a year long emergency supply of the prescriptions that you and your family rely

00:52:04.520 on.

00:52:04.880 So you go through their confidential telemedicine process.

00:52:08.240 They get you a year long supply of those prescriptions.

00:52:11.080 And then you can also get their Jace case, which is a supply of life-saving antibiotics.

00:52:17.260 You can add on things like Tamiflu or Ivermectin or an EpiPen.

00:52:23.380 It is so much better to be safe than sorry when it comes to your medical supplies for your

00:52:27.500 family.

00:52:28.100 So go to Jace.com.

00:52:29.820 You can use code Allie at checkout.

00:52:31.640 You'll get a discount when you do.

00:52:33.020 Jace.com.

00:52:33.860 Code Allie. 1.00

00:52:34.500 Were you surprised that The New Yorker reviewed your book and was, I mean, fairly positive

00:52:44.940 considering the source?

00:52:46.340 Yes.

00:52:46.840 I was definitely surprised.

00:52:48.400 I didn't know anything about it.

00:52:49.720 Um, I was teaching my classes and I got an email message that I didn't want to open until

00:52:54.920 my class was over.

00:52:56.560 Um, and so, yeah, it was a, it was a big surprise.

00:52:59.320 Um, and I thought that the author was, yeah, very positive.

00:53:03.020 And actually, I'll just say this loud and clear.

00:53:05.820 She pulled some of my favorite quotes out of the book that nobody had yet pulled out of

00:53:10.140 the book.

00:53:10.560 Um, and so I thought that was really wonderful.

00:53:13.340 Yeah.

00:53:13.740 Yeah.

00:53:13.960 I, I was really happy to see that because you don't really expect a place like The New

00:53:20.500 Yorker to even pick this up or pay attention to it.

00:53:22.900 Yes.

00:53:23.860 I think that moms, um, moms are caricatured in a way that our, our society kind of gets,

00:53:30.960 but doesn't really have a counter image for it.

00:53:35.280 And the reason this was so satisfying is because I think that you may not agree with,

00:53:40.560 the things and the sentiments and ideas of every woman in my book, you may not find it

00:53:44.900 like something that you want to do, but it certainly replaces a caricature with a real

00:53:49.740 human being or flesh and blood human being that you can kind of think, well, I don't

00:53:53.600 know if I, I don't know if everybody reading The New Yorker wants to do that or to be that,

00:53:58.280 but they could at least say, I could see how somebody would want to do this if they believe

00:54:02.540 what they believe.

00:54:03.320 And I, I understand where they're coming from.

00:54:05.740 Right.

00:54:05.920 So that made me very happy.

00:54:07.900 Right.

00:54:08.180 Well, I'm so thankful that you wrote this book and that you talked to all these women.

00:54:12.100 This is a fascinating conversation and people can get it wherever books are sold.

00:54:17.140 I'm guessing.

00:54:18.000 Yes.

00:54:18.300 Oh yes.

00:54:18.920 Yeah.

00:54:19.080 Of course.

00:54:20.060 Amazon, Barnes and Nobles.

00:54:21.440 I love it.

00:54:21.700 It's so beautiful too.

00:54:22.980 Hannah's children, the women quietly define the birth dearth. 1.00

00:54:26.100 And of course you're one of those women and it's, it's a very easy to read book, but

00:54:31.360 it's just jam packed with all these very meaningful stories and facts as well.

00:54:35.440 And this is at least at the very least, the conversation starter we need as we talk about

00:54:41.060 reversing this literally existential crisis that we're in.

00:54:45.960 So thank you so much for writing it.

00:54:47.560 I really appreciate you.

00:54:48.400 You're welcome.

00:54:48.500 Thank you.

00:54:49.040 Bye.

00:54:50.800 Thank you.

00:54:52.020 Bye.

00:54:52.940 Bye.

00:54:55.480 Bye.

00:54:55.620 Bye.

00:54:56.260 Bye.

00:54:57.300 Bye.

00:54:57.600 Bye.

00:54:57.800 Bye.

00:54:58.140 Bye.

00:54:58.460 Bye.

00:54:58.620 Bye.

00:54:59.640 Bye.

00:55:00.440 Bye.

00:55:00.700 Bye.

00:55:01.780 Bye.

00:55:02.720 Bye.

00:55:03.260 Bye.

00:55:05.020 Bye.

00:55:12.560 Bye.

00:55:17.140 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 07, 2024

Ep 1079 ｜ When to Stop Having Kids ｜ Guest： Dr. Catherine Pakaluk

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript