Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1086 ｜ To Your Christian Friends Who Won’t Vote ｜ Guest： Dr. Albert Mohler

00:00:00.520 Are pro-life Christians compromising by voting for Donald Trump in light of some of the troubling

00:00:07.300 things that he has said about abortion and abortion policy?

00:00:11.840 What is really at stake in this election?

00:00:15.640 We've got Dr. Albert Muller here.

00:00:17.820 He is the president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

00:00:21.200 He is the editor at World Opinions.

00:00:23.940 I have been listening to his podcast, the briefing for years.

00:00:27.800 He is so insightful, cuts through the noise so well.

00:00:31.160 You are going to find so much clarity and so much wisdom from him today.

00:00:35.140 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:38.560 Go to GoodRanchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:40.840 That's GoodRanchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:53.080 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:54.820 Happy Monday.

00:00:55.680 Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.

00:00:58.260 We are going to get into this conversation with Dr. Muller.

00:01:01.140 Just want to say a couple of things.

00:01:03.320 I am going to respond on the show to Russell Moore.

00:01:09.200 Many of you know exactly who that is.

00:01:11.600 Calling me a Nazi in Christianity today.

00:01:16.220 And I'll tell you why he said such an egregiously malicious thing.

00:01:24.820 And I will give you my reply to those words in the pages of Christianity today tomorrow.

00:01:32.380 But today we're going to talk about how Christians should be thinking about this imminent election.

00:01:39.180 But before we get into it with Dr. Muller, I just want to remind you Toxic Empathy is on sale.

00:01:45.180 So many of the topics that we are discussing today are covered in this book.

00:01:50.880 I explain how women in particular are targeted by progressive bad actors with emotional manipulation tactics to make us believe that the progressive position on policies, on these issues, is the righteous and compassionate one.

00:02:11.560 And I want to take us to a place of true love, of true kindness, of true compassion, not a superficial toxic form of empathy that blinds us to reality and morality.

00:02:23.780 So you can click the link on the description of this episode to buy that.

00:02:27.900 Please leave a five-star review on Amazon if you've already read it.

00:02:31.500 Or you can just go to ToxicEmpathy.com and you can see where else it is sold as well as on Audible.

00:02:39.820 All right.

00:02:40.200 Without further ado, here is Dr. Al Muller.

00:02:46.520 Dr. Muller, thanks so much for joining us again.

00:02:50.540 I wanted to have you on because you have helped me so much for several years in thinking through all the issues that matter.

00:02:56.040 But especially this election season, we've got a lot of demoralized.

00:03:01.500 There are a lot of Christian pro-lifers who feel that there's no one who truly represents them on this ballot.

00:03:08.460 And because of that, there are a lot of people who are going to sit out or maybe they're going to write in.

00:03:13.680 They don't know what to do.

00:03:15.520 Can you just help us think through that as someone who has championed the pro-life cause for such a long time?

00:03:23.300 Well, Ali Beth, first of all, it's good to be with you again.

00:03:25.500 And I appreciate the way you set up the situation because that is where we are.

00:03:29.720 There is a sense in which there's no champion for the pro-life cause in either party at the top of the ticket.

00:03:36.820 But, you know, that doesn't mean that, number one, we face a situation in which there's not a clear alternative between a more aggressively pro-abortion stance and a less aggressively pro-abortion stance.

00:03:49.200 And I think there's a very concrete difference in the two administrations that we put in place.

00:03:53.500 And even as I limit some of the directions the former president has gone in this clearly and a retreat from what had been hard won pro-life gains in the Republican Party.

00:04:03.200 There is still a light year of difference, light years indeed, between the Republican and the Democratic parties and between what would be a Harris administration or Harris-Walls administration and a Trump-Vance administration.

00:04:15.240 And so, you know, we have to remember that the pro-life movement didn't get to, say, the reversal of Roe v. Wade except working for a half a century.

00:04:25.120 We're called to a very long fight here.

00:04:27.080 We've got to stay in the fight.

00:04:28.160 And that means that we've got to be honest about the political alternatives in an election like 2024.

00:04:33.640 And, frankly, if the pro-life priority is clear, there's really not a moment's hesitation to understand what a distinction we're really confronted with.

00:04:42.400 Because when it comes to the Harris-Walls ticket, you're talking about absolute unbridled support for abortion at any point up until birth paid for by the American taxpayer and, quite frankly, aggressively supported with all the power of the administrative state.

00:04:56.320 But on the Republican side, it's a very different picture.

00:04:59.540 And, frankly, we need to be honest about those two stark alternatives.

00:05:03.160 I heard Governor Walls say in the VP debate that abortion is a fundamental right.

00:05:11.880 And I noticed just in their animation, Kamala and Walls, in the debates, that this is really what they're most excited about.

00:05:22.960 This is when they kind of become most articulate.

00:05:25.640 It's when they sound the most knowledgeable when they're talking about abortion.

00:05:30.160 Their fervor just comes out in full force.

00:05:32.660 And he said this is a fundamental right.

00:05:34.800 It shouldn't be left up to the states.

00:05:37.320 Can you translate that for us?

00:05:39.760 What are they talking about when it comes to legislation and enshrining into law abortion as a fundamental right for the entire country?

00:05:50.100 You are so right to zero win on that term.

00:05:52.420 And it really has two meanings in this context.

00:05:55.220 And the meaning that Governor Walls, I think, certainly has in mind is the meaning that any limitation upon that right has to meet an extraordinary legal standard, a constitutional standard to stand.

00:06:08.460 So a fundamental right, like, say, a freedom of expression, the freedom of the press, it requires an extremely close scrutiny standard by the courts to see if any restriction could stand.

00:06:21.500 The second meaning of fundamental right is that that's something that government doesn't create, it recognizes.

00:06:29.560 And, you know, this is right in our founding documents, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that they're unalienable rights.

00:06:37.320 And that's to say that our founder said there's certain human rights that, and we understand this from the Christian worldview, there's certain human rights that the government doesn't create.

00:06:48.440 It just recognizes and agrees to honor.

00:06:50.840 And, you know, that's ridiculous when it comes to abortion on both counts, because there is no society throughout all of human history that has somehow come to the claim that abortion is a fundamental and alienable right. 0.61

00:07:02.740 That's just insane.

00:07:04.240 But, you know, the left, one of its strategies is saying things over and over again to where it eventually sounds like it could be true.

00:07:11.720 And the next thing you know, you've got courts saying, well, that sounds like it's true. 0.98

00:07:15.080 And you've got millions of American people who say that sounds like it's true.

00:07:18.220 We need to strip back the reality here.

00:07:20.700 And, you know, when Governor Walz says it's true, he operates as if it's true.

00:07:24.640 I mean, you have Governor Walz, he signed one of the most aggressively pro-abortion bills in all of, I won't say American history, all of world history,

00:07:32.700 in which there's absolutely no restriction on abortion, period, in the bill that he supported and signed into law in the state of Minnesota.

00:07:42.580 So I'll tell you this, I think he means what he says, and that's what scares me the most.

00:07:47.720 Is it too far to say that the Harris-Walls administration would want to make it impossible for states to restrict abortion at all?

00:07:58.320 That is exactly what they mean.

00:08:00.340 When they use that expression, a fundamental right, they want to make it.

00:08:03.880 You know, Kamala Harris at one point said that she thought that abortion restrictions ought to be put in the same category as certain issues that came up in terms of equal rights on the basis of race,

00:08:16.560 so that the states would have to have pre-clearance.

00:08:19.080 This is back when she was in the Senate.

00:08:21.020 That states would have to have pre-clearance for any law restricting abortion.

00:08:24.820 Well, you know what would happen?

00:08:25.940 That clearance would never come.

00:08:27.380 So, look, we know exactly where they stand on this.

00:08:29.980 And they're going to oppose any restriction on abortion all the way up until the moment of birth.

00:08:34.800 And we know this because that's what Governor Walz has already done.

00:08:38.200 And quite honestly, we know that even when they talk about codifying Roe, I'm not going to say it's an evasion.

00:08:44.000 I'm just going to say it's an outright lie.

00:08:45.720 Because the Democratic Party's base, that's not what they're calling for, much less the activists in the Democratic Party.

00:08:51.780 So we need to let Christian voters know what is at stake.

00:08:55.340 It would be turning America into an abortion state. 1.00

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00:10:31.300 I have a lot of sincerely pro-life, Jesus-loving friends who feel that voting for Donald Trump would be a compromise on this issue.

00:10:47.780 I heard Ryan Anderson, and he doesn't represent that view that I just articulated.

00:10:53.300 This is kind of separate.

00:10:54.800 But he articulated the dilemma that we're in, that if we continue to reward a compromising GOP with our votes,

00:11:05.920 then we basically, as Christians, become the cheap date of the Republican Party,

00:11:11.260 that they can basically do anything they want as long as they aren't as far left as the other party and will still vote for them.

00:11:19.600 And that's something that I've wrestled with, even though I'm voting for Donald Trump.

00:11:24.640 Are we rewarding their compromise on this issue and the LGBTQ issue by continuing to vote for them, 1.00

00:11:31.700 even when they kind of make it clear they don't care that much what we think?

00:11:34.720 Well, I think the principle argument you make there, the argument on principle, is when we just have to think through.

00:11:44.380 And then there's the pragmatic and timing argument.

00:11:46.840 So let me start with the pragmatic argument.

00:11:49.400 We're having a conversation here just days before the election.

00:11:53.060 The switcheroo when it came to Joe Biden stepping down, Kamala Harris coming on as the Democratic nominee,

00:11:58.220 and frankly, even the limitable policy shifts of the Trump campaign.

00:12:05.020 These have come too late for us to talk as if we're really trying to figure out what to do between now and Election Day.

00:12:11.560 So let's just be honest.

00:12:12.620 Yeah.

00:12:13.820 We have just a few days before Election Day.

00:12:16.360 And even going back to August, this cake is baked for the 2024 election.

00:12:21.580 And we're going to have to take responsibility for our vote in this election.

00:12:24.660 And that's where I come back to the principle issue.

00:12:26.360 If, in principle, you can only vote for candidates who you know are in their hearts completely committed to the pro-life cause,

00:12:35.360 you're either going to fool yourself or you're not going to vote.

00:12:38.840 And so I go back to the fact that I was a teenage volunteer for Ronald Reagan.

00:12:43.180 And no apology there.

00:12:44.540 That was a great experience.

00:12:45.500 And I celebrate the administration of Ronald Reagan as the 40th president of the United States.

00:12:52.320 I can't tell you today what Ronald Reagan felt in his heart about abortion.

00:12:55.960 I can tell you what he did in policy.

00:12:58.060 I can tell you what platform he ran on.

00:13:00.860 And when it comes to George H.W. Bush, he was a supporter of Roe publicly and ardently until the moment he became vice presidential nominee to Ronald Reagan.

00:13:10.040 I don't know if his heart changed.

00:13:11.500 I do know his policy changed.

00:13:13.140 And we have to vote on the policies that are going to come out of an administration.

00:13:17.680 So, again, I think there's going to be a long-term conversation, just like Ryan Anderson, who's a dear friend.

00:13:23.500 I think that conversation is going to have to happen.

00:13:25.740 But you know what?

00:13:26.240 It's not going to happen before Election Day.

00:13:28.660 And we really got to decide what we must do on Election Day.

00:13:32.200 And then let's pledge now we're going to be in that conversation right after Election Day as soon as it's logistically possible.

00:13:39.800 Right.

00:13:40.020 And, again, just looking at the differences between the current administration and what Donald Trump would be, I mean, we have yet another pro-lifer who was just placed in prison for three and a half years for not anything violent but unlawful assembly in the state of New York for protesting outside of an abortion clinic.

00:13:57.480 And there's Joan Bell, the 74-year-old, who was also placed in prison for blocking an entrance to an abortion clinic.

00:14:05.420 And so that's the Harris-Biden administration.

00:14:09.100 That would be the Harris-Walls administration, I think, even more fervently than what we're seeing right now.

00:14:16.620 And so that's a really big difference.

00:14:19.040 That's part of what's at stake.

00:14:21.860 And you're right.

00:14:22.880 Can I offer one thing there to support your argument?

00:14:25.780 And I just want to talk – my dad used to say eventually get down to the hammer and the nails.

00:14:31.140 Okay, I want to get there for a moment.

00:14:33.520 I truly believe that if the Harris-Walls ticket is elected and if they are able to push through – and the most important issue here is going to be the Senate given the filibuster possibility.

00:14:48.080 But remember, you know, the vice president has said she will oppose eliminating the filibuster for a vote on abortion rights.

00:14:54.740 If she's elected and they can push this legislation through, pro-lifers just need to understand that would instantly mean a radical abortion state in the United States of America. 1.00

00:15:05.480 I mean the entire country has an abortion state. 0.98

00:15:07.360 And, you know, how we would recover from that on the other side – I mean we'd have to figure out a strategy and some of us are trying to think through what that would look like.

00:15:16.840 But I just want pro-lifers to know it would be a catastrophe beyond anything we have ever experienced in this country.

00:15:23.360 It would be a catastrophe far larger in scale than Roe v. Wade, which at least acknowledged the right of states to restrict abortion in the third trimester.

00:15:32.240 We'd be talking about an absolute pro-abortion America. 0.60

00:15:36.780 And, you know, I think – Ali Beth, I'll just go to say this.

00:15:39.540 I think our experience with the Obergefell decision and same-sex marriage, it indicates that America does a moral reset. 0.92

00:15:46.340 And overcoming that moral reset is something that I think pro-lifers need to take into account.

00:15:53.360 It's a daunting obstacle.

00:15:55.320 And right now we have a chance on Election Day to prevent that from happening.

00:15:59.500 I don't claim that on Election Day we have an opportunity this time to make a radical advance for the pro-life cause.

00:16:05.740 We need to avoid an absolute disaster.

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00:17:20.640 What do you say to the tens of millions, according to George Barna, of Christians who attend church regularly?

00:17:31.500 This was the study that was just released by his institution who say that they are simply uninterested in politics right now and do not plan to vote.

00:17:42.240 They're hearing what you're saying, but they're thinking, OK, you know, I'm probably not going to make that much of an impact with my single vote anyway.

00:17:50.100 I just don't really want to be a part of this.

00:17:53.300 What's your message to them?

00:17:54.680 Well, my first message has nothing to do with 2024 and everything to do with Romans 13 in the sense that we bear a stewardship.

00:18:04.560 And if we fail at that stewardship, then shame upon us.

00:18:08.020 I think sin upon us.

00:18:09.640 And when I use sin here, I mean a failure to exercise a stewardship.

00:18:14.920 And I think it's disastrous.

00:18:18.060 And by the way, if you don't vote, that's a political act.

00:18:20.900 If you if you are qualified to vote, you register to vote and you're you're you have the right, the franchise to vote and you don't vote, you just overvalued every other vote, which means you overvalue votes against your convictions.

00:18:33.260 And so there's no safe place to hide.

00:18:35.760 I want to tell American Christians not voting is not a nonpolitical act.

00:18:41.440 It's a political act.

00:18:42.860 Now, I'm not saying that it would never be called for.

00:18:45.040 I'm just saying in a situation like this where you've got these kinds of issues at stake, not voting, I think, is a form of of failure of stewardship.

00:18:54.880 And I don't know how to put it in any other terms.

00:18:57.500 I do believe it's a failure of stewardship.

00:19:00.000 Now, I can't bind everyone's conscience.

00:19:02.780 But what George Barna is talking about is not a number of evangelicals who are truly torn in conscience.

00:19:09.220 It's a number of evangelicals who say I'm just washing my hands of the matter.

00:19:12.280 Well, you know what?

00:19:13.500 That didn't turn out well for Pilate.

00:19:15.500 It's not a good policy.

00:19:17.140 Moral abdication is not a Christian alternative. 0.53

00:19:20.620 What role do you think pastors play in this?

00:19:23.120 I know they've got a they've got a hard job, but certainly if tens of millions of Christians who go to church are disinterested, there seems to be like there would be a role to play for the shepherds of these flocks.

00:19:36.540 Yes, and I don't believe that's turning the pulpit into a political action committee. 0.96

00:19:40.800 But you know what?

00:19:42.900 We have not invaded politics.

00:19:44.580 Politics has invaded us, which is to say our convictions about, for instance, the image of God and the sanctity of life and the definition of marriage.

00:19:53.680 And let's be honest what it means to be male and female, what it means to look at children and say, that's a boy, that's a girl.

00:19:59.980 The government has invaded our turf.

00:20:02.160 And so I don't understand the pastors who aren't directly addressing these issues with their people.

00:20:08.020 These are issues of public policy and biblical truth in collision.

00:20:10.980 And I don't believe abdicating that responsibility can be defined as faithfulness for pastors.

00:20:17.420 And I will be clear again, I am not saying I want pastors to show up with a donkey or an elephant on their lapel pin.

00:20:23.400 I want them to show up preaching the word where their own church members are facing the intersection of biblical truth and a deeply secularizing antagonistic culture.

00:20:35.500 Yeah. And you really don't have to get very far into the Bible to answer what are considered those cultural questions.

00:20:41.720 Just go in 27 verses and we've got the answer right there to a lot of questions.

00:20:46.560 Right. You know, Allie Beth, one of the things I try to do when I talk to Christians about the Christian worldview and ethical priority is, as I say, how close is this to creation order? 0.65

00:20:56.100 Because creation order is God's intention and purpose for his glory demonstrated.

00:21:00.700 And you point out it's so early in creation order.

00:21:03.780 We're talking about Genesis 1 with the Imago Dei.

00:21:07.580 And by the way, male and female created he them.

00:21:10.040 Mm hmm. I hear a lot of Christians who, you know, I characterize them as kind of being in the mushy middle who will say, you know, I understand what you're saying about Republicans, maybe getting it kind of right on abortion. 0.98

00:21:25.040 But, you know, I'm holistically pro-life and I don't really think the law has anything to say or anything important to say about abortion.

00:21:34.040 We can handle that in the private sector.

00:21:36.680 I'm going to vote for the Democrats because they help the poor.

00:21:39.680 They help the marginalized.

00:21:41.100 They help those on the outskirts of society that we're supposed to reach out to.

00:21:46.460 And we'll deal with the abortion issue more on a personal level.

00:21:50.440 They might call themselves holistically pro-life or pro-all life.

00:21:54.240 And they kind of use that justification to vote for big government Democrat policies.

00:21:58.780 What's your response to something like that?

00:22:02.300 I've seen this for decades now.

00:22:04.520 And you're exactly right.

00:22:05.580 The language they use is I'm holistically pro-life.

00:22:09.620 And somehow that ends up meaning that, you know, you're as concerned about greenhouse gases as aborted babies.

00:22:17.340 And, you know, I just think we need to call that out for what it is.

00:22:20.140 And it's evasion.

00:22:20.960 It's an effort of those and kind of you're a little kinder than I am.

00:22:25.880 Kind of a squishy left.

00:22:27.860 Yeah.

00:22:28.100 To try to say all these issues are basically just part of a muddled policy proposal.

00:22:34.060 And, you know, I just think you can just look at one.

00:22:36.880 You look at the other.

00:22:37.580 You say, I think I think this will make differences in the lives of real people.

00:22:41.100 I'd love to have time to just dissect, by the way, the left's claim about the welfare state.

00:22:45.200 And I want to point out that the welfare state, as it was originally intended, by the way, which was to support the natural family.

00:22:51.960 We'll never know if that would have worked out or not, simply because the left just messed that up from the beginning, separated the idea of public welfare from supporting the family and marriage to just, you know, what now becomes this radical dissolution of the family and rewarding persons on that basis.

00:23:11.480 So I just want to say, you know, I can't take that kind of argument anymore, Ali Beth, with a straight face. 0.70

00:23:17.860 I can't take it anymore and just say, well, that's naivete.

00:23:20.620 It's not naivete anymore.

00:23:22.760 It's deliberate evasion.

00:23:24.660 And, you know, here's where I just mentioned about male and female.

00:23:27.120 And I know you teach this very well.

00:23:29.660 You know, the closer you get to creation order, the higher the ethical priority.

00:23:34.140 And so I just want to say the defense of life in any sane Christian analysis has to be a far higher, even prior category to deciding, you know, what AFC checks should be based upon.

00:23:47.420 And if we start on the other end, it's just evasion.

00:23:51.100 Yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:23:53.100 That's a good point about the flipping of the priorities, basically putting greenhouse gases or whatever example it is, or immigration in the same bucket as abortion.

00:24:03.620 And I see that a lot from a lot of—I don't know if they're well-meaning or not, but it's a lot of Christians who believe that their Christian responsibility—and a lot of pastors, I see this from them too—to simply say both sides are bad and leave it at that.

00:24:19.220 To simply say, sure, some of the policies on the left are bad, but look at Donald Trump and look at who he is personally or look at some of the things that he's said.

00:24:29.360 And they see that as kind of boldness, or they see that as courage and clarity for their congregations.

00:24:37.180 I really see that as a lot of moral confusion, and their congregations are probably ending the service thinking, okay, but what am I supposed to think about those things?

00:24:46.760 And then they're finding the answers on Instagram, which I don't think is a great system.

00:24:50.520 Well, you have a great way of describing that.

00:24:55.280 You know, I want to turn to some of those pastors and say, okay, I want you to tell me your base minimum for the candidate you would support.

00:25:03.200 I want to know what moral requirements you put in place.

00:25:06.020 And then I want to know how you consistently hold to those.

00:25:10.020 And I'm not saying that it's irrelevant.

00:25:11.760 Of course, it's very relevant.

00:25:12.920 Character has to be a part of our consideration.

00:25:14.680 But, you know, quite honestly, when you look at American history and you ask honest questions, we are looking at the fact that we're voting over one center in regard to another one.

00:25:27.680 And again, I don't want to act as if I'm suggesting there's moral equivalence.

00:25:31.180 No, that's not a faithful argument either.

00:25:33.740 But we do need a sane analysis of how we're applying a moral judgment here.

00:25:38.840 And this is where we can't act like our electoral vote, our vote on election day, all of a sudden ends our moral responsibility.

00:25:49.500 We're responsible for what happens when that person for whom we voted operates in office.

00:25:55.560 And that's what I just don't see.

00:25:57.200 I think there are a lot of people who say, you know, I'm just – I'm going to put the election as the giant moral category and answer that one way or another.

00:26:06.620 And I'm not going to take responsibility for what comes after.

00:26:09.100 The fact is we've never been able to vote for a perfect candidate.

00:26:12.240 And holding that up is just an irrational, unbiblical standard.

00:26:15.880 We do have to understand we have to take responsibility.

00:26:19.340 And by the way, not just for the candidate that's put in office but the government that that implies.

00:26:24.840 And so in our system, as you well know, 4,000 direct appointments by the president.

00:26:29.720 You're really talking about who's going to set the direction for the entire federal government.

00:26:33.620 And so I'm not saying the character issue is irrelevant.

00:26:36.780 But honestly, you look at this election, I've got character concerns everywhere I look.

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00:28:02.360 On the LGBTQ issue, last week we had a young woman, she's barely 18 years old, and she was

00:28:13.800 injured by a male volleyball player who was playing on the opposing team, who of course being bigger

00:28:19.900 and stronger than his female teammates and opponents, he spiked the ball, hit her in the 0.83

00:28:25.120 face. 0.97

00:28:25.560 She had a brain bleed.

00:28:26.760 She was knocked unconscious.

00:28:27.880 She has permanent neck injuries, and now she's brave enough to be speaking out, and of course

00:28:32.820 she's talking about these Title IX changes that the Harris-Biden administration have tried

00:28:38.240 to push forward, and that of course Harris, if she wins, is going to be championing. 0.98

00:28:45.660 Tell us how to think about this issue and what you think is at stake if Harris wins.

00:28:53.020 You know, it's hard to talk about this without getting emotional, honestly.

00:28:56.460 It's hard to believe that we're facing this kind of reality now, in which you have biological 0.99

00:29:02.460 males who are playing, by the way, not only in a way that's unfair, but in a way that makes 1.00

00:29:06.240 it unsafe for girls and women to compete in sports.

00:29:10.340 You know, women fought very hard for the right to be supported in athletic endeavors and teams 1.00

00:29:19.820 and athletic sports and programs and colleges, universities and high schools, and Title IX was

00:29:25.180 a part of that, and it was also tied to the effects of racial discrimination and all the rest.

00:29:31.040 And when you all of a sudden put the T in that LGBTQ series, you throw the entire world upside down. 1.00

00:29:37.800 And you know, I, Ali Beth, I just have to be honest, I don't think those who are the proponents

00:29:42.180 in the main, I think most of them are lying when they say they believe this, because, you know,

00:29:47.100 all I have to do is hold up the picture of the University of Pennsylvania women's swim team.

00:29:53.620 And one thing is not like the other.

00:29:55.280 I mean, you just look at it, there's a male body there.

00:29:57.320 I don't care what you say ideologically, that is a male body.

00:30:00.440 And Americans recognize it, which is one of the reasons why I think long term, this is an issue

00:30:06.460 in which we can, we can bring some definition.

00:30:08.820 But, you know, when it comes to that particular issue, we need to understand two things.

00:30:14.740 When it comes to Title IX, President Joe Biden has said that his administration will interpret

00:30:20.300 that to mean that the T is covered, along with every other category covered, and non-binary,

00:30:27.360 and, you know, gender fluid, whatever category we want to use, is covered by Title IX protections.

00:30:32.700 That means the end of women's sports. 0.99

00:30:33.960 It eventually means the end of women's and girls' everything, because you're going to 1.00

00:30:37.620 have biological males that are going to be able to call themselves girls or women, and

00:30:42.180 beyond them.

00:30:42.960 That is beyond insane.

00:30:45.520 And you have the Harris plan, which, by the way, is buttress of something.

00:30:50.500 You know, in her interview on Fox News with Bret Baier, she was asked about some of these

00:30:55.140 things, and she said, I will uphold the law.

00:30:57.440 I will uphold the law.

00:30:58.520 Yeah.

00:30:58.920 Okay, that is such an evasion, because that's not what we're asking.

00:31:03.140 We're asking, what do you want the law to be?

00:31:05.620 And she will not say that out loud, because it will cost her millions of votes.

00:31:09.180 So we're going to have to say it out loud.

00:31:11.180 It will mean more boys on girls' teams.

00:31:13.400 It will mean more men on women's teams. 0.96

00:31:16.100 It will mean more spiked balls and more brain bleeds. 0.99

00:31:19.700 And that's the simple bottom line truth. 0.98

00:31:22.040 Yep.

00:31:22.480 She was responding to a question about something so absurd.

00:31:26.060 It was an interview that she gave a few years ago.

00:31:28.260 She proudly said that when she was Attorney General of California, she championed the

00:31:33.640 policy that allowed inmates, male inmates, to have the quote-unquote sex change surgery

00:31:39.820 funded by the taxpayers and then switched into female prisons. 1.00

00:31:44.740 Now, we know in the state of Washington, in the state of New York, in the state of Illinois,

00:31:48.460 in the state of California, in Oregon, where these policies are in place, women, incarcerated 1.00

00:31:53.460 women have been raped, have been assaulted by these men.

00:31:57.480 Some of them have had surgery. 0.99

00:31:58.840 Some of them haven't, who have entered female prisons. 1.00

00:32:03.640 And of course, Kamala Harris hasn't been talking about that, this campaign.

00:32:07.280 They haven't been talking about transgenderism at all, because it is so unpopular.

00:32:11.460 Yet that is who she is.

00:32:13.280 That is what she has advocated for.

00:32:15.000 And she will continue to do so if she's president. 0.99

00:32:18.400 Absolutely.

00:32:18.880 And she's told us that at every opportunity, she's saying it now by evading the question

00:32:24.340 and just by saying, I will uphold the law.

00:32:27.620 Well, she knows what she's doing.

00:32:29.720 We need to call her out for what she's doing there. 1.00

00:32:32.860 And you know, Allie Beth, you look at this confusion.

00:32:35.860 And again, I don't think many of the people who are political proponents of this movement

00:32:39.880 actually believe it.

00:32:41.500 And so just this morning, I saw where a father of an eight-year-old girl had gone to a school

00:32:45.600 board meeting, because his eight-year-old daughter had been confronted in the bathroom

00:32:50.240 with an eight-year-old boy who, you know, same stuff, declaring himself.

00:32:55.040 And the thing this father said to the school board is, if I did that in the adult bathroom,

00:33:01.040 you put me in jail. 0.96

00:33:02.960 And so it's the irrational, inconsistent, hypocritical, ideologically, frankly, intoxicated 0.99

00:33:11.300 left that is pushing this. 0.97

00:33:13.280 And I thank God that you're pushing back on it.

00:33:16.320 And I think we just need to let Christians know we have to press back on it. 0.94

00:33:19.120 And honestly, I think, and it's hard to put this in a scale, I think the Title IX

00:33:24.080 problem with the Harris-Walls ticket, once it becomes, if it's elected, Harris-Walls administration,

00:33:35.300 I think the more immediate action is not going to be on the life question, because that's going

00:33:39.320 to take some legislation.

00:33:41.140 I think you're going to see it on Title IX.

00:33:42.740 I think it's going to be a revolution.

00:33:44.820 And I think when a lot of Christians wake up, it's just going to be too late. 0.99

00:33:48.440 Mm-hmm.

00:33:49.000 I do wonder if this, the trans issue, is the bridge too far?

00:33:55.480 That's why they haven't been campaigning on this, because a lot of Americans, left, right, 0.90

00:34:00.720 center, see the ridiculousness of this.

00:34:02.960 Do you think, if we're to be a little optimistic, that adding the T to LGBT has really hindered 1.00

00:34:10.940 the sexual revolution and is causing people to kind of look backwards and say, huh, maybe 0.99

00:34:16.660 this started when we said that husbands and wives are social constructs.

00:34:21.360 Do you see that?

00:34:22.660 Right.

00:34:22.900 Oh, absolutely.

00:34:24.580 And this is where their own category of intersectionality comes back to explain how they got here,

00:34:30.080 because they really thought the commonality of LGBTQ and that ominous plus sign is this

00:34:36.620 intersectional argument that you add all these categories together and you gain more moral

00:34:41.840 credibility for your revolution.

00:34:44.100 And yeah, I think you're exactly right.

00:34:46.120 You know, the T in LGBTQ is making a claim that requires people to say something categorically

00:34:53.880 different than L and G and B, in which case, of course, we have a very clear moral understanding

00:34:59.260 of what's at stake there, but they're not asking people not to believe their eyes.

00:35:05.020 And on the T, they've actually gone to the point where they're saying, okay, this is a

00:35:09.120 woman.

00:35:09.440 And you go, no, it's not.

00:35:11.180 And by the way, you don't think it is either, but you have bought into an ideology and an

00:35:15.320 intersectional, you know, political support and identity politics that means you're in

00:35:20.120 this conspiracy to just keep saying that that's not a man, that's a woman.

00:35:23.780 But, you know, honestly, this is where I think you're right.

00:35:26.400 The problem for the left is that once they are exposed for the falsity of their argument

00:35:34.780 in T, well, most people are logical enough to figure out they really have a problem with

00:35:40.020 L and G and B too.

00:35:45.320 Look, we don't know what's going to happen with this election.

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00:36:54.760 Can you remind us what the Equality Act is?

00:36:58.880 Kamala Harris has been a big supporter of that, of course, and Democrats have tried to

00:37:03.400 pass it many times, of course, if Democrats control Congress, she's in the White House, 1.00

00:37:07.640 it's going to pass very easily.

00:37:09.100 I think that's probably one of their top priorities, to your point.

00:37:12.540 Can you remind us of what that would mean for Christians or really anyone who believes in

00:37:16.940 the reality of male and female?

00:37:20.340 Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking that question.

00:37:22.400 And I think the greatest comparison I know, and this dates me a little, is that I think it

00:37:27.880 would have a similar effect to what would have happened if the Equal Rights Amendment had 0.88

00:37:31.060 been ratified in the 1970s.

00:37:34.060 Now, that would have been a constitutional amendment, but the result of the ERA would

00:37:37.540 have been that it basically would destroy all sex-specific distinctions in society in

00:37:46.100 any meaningful way.

00:37:47.060 And that was before the LGBTQ revolution had worked its way out. 0.78

00:37:50.900 But some of those issues were already, you know, at least visible.

00:37:55.060 But back then, it was the old days when you worried about whether women would be included

00:37:59.360 in the draft. The Equality Act is threatening because the very things we talked about with

00:38:05.040 these Title IX restrictions, well, you know, the immediate impact of those Title IX policies

00:38:10.440 would be horrifying where Title IX policies apply.

00:38:14.000 And so, I mean, that's a lot.

00:38:15.780 You're talking about schools and you're talking about colleges and universities, Title IX recipients.

00:38:21.460 The Equality Act would take that and apply it to the entire society at once.

00:38:24.640 And that's why I made the comparison with the ERA.

00:38:27.480 If it had been ratified, then instantly you would have had a situation in which every law

00:38:33.260 has to conform to this new reality.

00:38:35.080 Every policy, every citizen is accountable to this.

00:38:38.520 And that's what would happen with the Equality Act as a piece of legislation. 0.98

00:38:42.160 That's why the Democrats know.

00:38:43.200 That's why the left wants to pass it as quickly as possible.

00:38:45.860 They can use it.

00:38:46.600 And by the way, this is going to be a direct confrontation with religious liberty.

00:38:49.800 You know, it's going to make operating a school like mine all the more difficult.

00:38:55.080 By the way, we take no tax money.

00:38:56.860 So there's no Title IX issue here.

00:38:58.580 But the Equality Act, they could show up at this door just on the basis of that federal legislation.

00:39:04.300 They can and will basically try to shut down Christian witness on these issues.

00:39:11.240 So that's something else that's at stake that I think a lot of people don't fully understand,

00:39:15.780 that they feel that somehow they'll be shielded by that.

00:39:18.920 But actually, we've actually seen in several states, including in California,

00:39:24.540 including in Washington, that Christians have been punished for their speech.

00:39:29.720 And of course, many of these cases have been won by the pro-First Amendment side in the Supreme Court.

00:39:36.280 But even just looking at Kamala Harris, of course, who doesn't care about the First Amendment at all, 1.00

00:39:42.040 when she was Attorney General, forcing the FACT Act on pro-life pregnancy centers that forced them to advertise for abortion, 0.99

00:39:50.320 going after David Daleiden, the pro-life reporter who reported on Planned Parenthood.

00:39:55.200 So I hear a lot that, OK, we've got to vote for Kamala Harris just to save democracy. 1.00

00:39:59.920 We've got this autocrat over here in Donald Trump who doesn't care about the Constitution.

00:40:04.040 But when I'm looking at Kamala Harris's record, just when it comes to our First Amendment rights and walls as well,

00:40:10.840 I'm not seeing a team that really cares about my true freedom.

00:40:14.920 Oh, it's so helpful you detail the issues just that way, Allie Beth.

00:40:22.240 And, you know, I don't mean this against all lawyers, but I'll say it's not one of the faults of Donald Trump that he is an attorney.

00:40:28.460 It is one of the faults of Kamala Harris that she's the former Attorney General of California. 1.00

00:40:32.660 And you look at what she did as Attorney General, and you're exactly right.

00:40:36.880 And I add to that what she suggested in terms of preclearance for states restricting abortion.

00:40:42.580 She is no friend to our constitutional rights.

00:40:44.660 And that begins at the very beginning, even with religious liberty.

00:40:48.060 And I'm not saying that she will come out and campaign against it.

00:40:50.700 I'm saying she has taken actions that have presented huge subversions of basic liberties.

00:40:58.940 And that preclearance issue, I know I come back to it again, but what it tells me is she's a threat to our constitutional order. 0.98

00:41:05.240 And so I'm not saying that we don't have big problems in the 2024 election.

00:41:10.240 I'm just saying that if you're going to talk about saving democracy, you better take some account for at least acknowledging the very things you have helpfully outlined there.

00:41:19.720 We are talking about the Democratic left that will use the power of the state to accomplish its ideological and moral ends and will trample our liberties in the process.

00:41:31.100 And frankly, I think redefine the power of the federal government.

00:41:33.760 I like to remind people that when Democrats say freedom, they're only talking about two things.

00:41:40.640 They're talking about sexual immorality and abortion.

00:41:43.880 They're not talking about your First and Second Amendment rights.

00:41:46.560 They're not talking about your constitutional liberties. 0.99

00:41:48.700 They're talking about sexual libertinism and killing your children. 0.83

00:41:53.880 So every bit of freedom that they say they advocate for tends to fall under those two categories.

00:42:01.460 When it comes to immigration, this is another one that I think a lot of Christians are confused about.

00:42:07.620 It's good to feel compassion for those who are fleeing violence.

00:42:11.080 It's good to feel compassion for the downtrodden.

00:42:15.000 But some people allow that.

00:42:16.820 I use the term toxic empathy to describe how people become blinded to reality and morality because they only feel strongly exclusively for a particular victim on a side of an issue, especially when it comes to immigration.

00:42:33.480 And so they may feel that really any border enforcement or any immigration enforcement is cruel.

00:42:39.620 And yet we're seeing the human cost to opening up the border and the federal government undermining Texas's efforts to secure its own border.

00:42:47.660 So how should Christians think about this issue?

00:42:50.240 Is this a biblical issue in a similar way that these created order issues are?

00:42:56.180 Well, that last twist is really important, and I thank you for it.

00:43:02.200 No, this is not a creation order issue, except, and we need to acknowledge this, to the extent that we recognize every single human being as made in God's image and thus worthy of being considered, in some sense, our brother and our sister, our neighbor.

00:43:15.760 And in that sense, in what it means to share the image of God, but, you know, Ali Beth, you mentioned the issue of immigration and you defined it rightly.

00:43:25.660 And so let's understand when the left is talking about this, they're talking about reshaping the nation and reshaping the moral order.

00:43:31.960 And there are real humanitarian crises all over the world, and some of them fairly close to us across the border.

00:43:39.640 But you see this in Europe right now, where you have liberal regimes, liberal governments that are being toppled and shaken by immigration crises in their own countries, and the realization that decisions were made that have been disastrous for these countries.

00:43:52.760 So let's just put it this way.

00:43:54.340 Love of neighbor means we concede some truths.

00:43:56.560 One of the truths is that a nation, that includes the United States of America, can handle only so many immigrants of a certain kind coming for, you know, qualified reasons at a time. 1.00

00:44:06.140 That can only be done a certain amount at a time.

00:44:09.180 When you have a humanitarian catastrophe, such as what's happened in some situations, there's some legal allowance for a special case after this kind of disaster.

00:44:19.520 But the disaster in this case is the failure to apply the laws of the United States of America and maintain recognized borders.

00:44:27.680 And that is disastrous.

00:44:29.620 And, you know, Ali Beth, you point out the argument coming from the left.

00:44:32.600 Well, you know, this is where it'd be helpful if we just take their argument to the logical conclusion.

00:44:37.400 Let's just say, OK, let's just take your argument.

00:44:39.220 You say borders don't matter.

00:44:40.320 OK, borders don't matter.

00:44:41.720 Well, you know what?

00:44:42.860 When they take these liberal positions on abortion, they've got no skin in the game.

00:44:46.180 You all of a sudden say, well, OK, let's just say borders don't matter.

00:44:49.400 Turn in your passport.

00:44:50.320 You're a citizen of the world now.

00:44:52.080 You know and I know that the Democratic left is not going to go along with that because they don't mean what they say.

00:44:57.180 And love of neighbor is not is not helped by just eliminating all borders.

00:45:01.940 I believe nations are logical units.

00:45:05.400 And if they survive as any length of time, they're logical units based upon historical reasons.

00:45:11.400 And, you know, it just doesn't help the world to say all of you are welcome to come.

00:45:16.240 That is that would lead to a humanitarian disaster larger than anything we could imagine.

00:45:20.820 I hope I'm being clear here.

00:45:22.180 It's just I just get so frustrated by the left on this.

00:45:24.980 I just want to say, OK, let's just take your argument to the logical conclusion.

00:45:28.180 You be the first to turn in your passport, your driver's license.

00:45:30.920 Let's see how that works out.

00:45:32.340 Yes.

00:45:32.520 And sometimes it's good to ask those clarifying questions for those who really can't get on board with any immigration enforcement.

00:45:39.720 Well, how many is too much?

00:45:42.500 Should we allow every single person from every single country that is poorer than America to come here? 1.00

00:45:48.480 Do they all have a right to come here?

00:45:50.500 Do we have a right at any point to say no to anyone for any reason?

00:45:55.600 And usually there is.

00:45:58.160 And then you can kind of work from there because I don't know very many people who, when it gets down to it, truly believe in allowing an unmitigated flow of unvetted strangers into our country. 1.00

00:46:14.320 And yet they also won't say, OK, well, how do we get to enforce that then?

00:46:20.520 Which means that they're not really living in reality.

00:46:23.540 No, they're not being intellectually honest.

00:46:25.480 And, you know, here's where I think there's a conspiracy of sorts.

00:46:29.380 And so I don't mean that as a conspiracy theory because I'm going to give you the facts.

00:46:32.980 It's an open secret.

00:46:34.320 You have the mainstream media in this country that simply won't tell the truth about immigration.

00:46:38.160 They simply won't.

00:46:39.380 They won't go to border towns and tell you what's actually happening.

00:46:42.400 And you know better than I know the fact that there are those who try to make this just a leftist argument based upon ethnicity.

00:46:51.140 But an awful lot of the people who are most concerned about the effects of illegal immigration are those who are from the same communities and have immigrated here legally and now understand the threat of illegal immigration and what that means.

00:47:02.760 And, you know, there are too many people in endowed, you know, professorial chairs at Ivy League universities and frankly, you know, 18 to 20 year olds on campuses and too many suburban liberals who have no skin in the game.

00:47:17.480 I'm from Florida originally.

00:47:19.060 I think I got a pretty clear understanding of this through three waves of immigration when I was a teenager.

00:47:25.440 And, you know, my church was on the front lines of ministering to every single person who showed up on the shore, on the beach.

00:47:35.520 We and my dad was I want to honor him, was just very involved as a Baptist layman and helping those people.

00:47:40.580 But you know what?

00:47:42.880 We understood the distinction between legal and illegal immigration and the government's responsibility to deal with that.

00:47:48.460 And so I think love of neighbor means, yes, we're going to take care of them.

00:47:52.000 We're going to give them clothes.

00:47:53.260 We're going to give them food.

00:47:54.780 But that does not mean we give them citizenship based upon the moral context.

00:48:01.020 And I think a government has a moral responsibility to protect its own citizens.

00:48:06.200 And people seem to understand this when it comes to other countries.

00:48:09.440 If you asked, hey, should a million of us Americans get to go to Zimbabwe, set up camp there illegally and, you know, conform the culture and that city to our image, of course, they would call us colonizers and oppressors and all kinds of things.

00:48:24.840 And they would absolutely defend Zimbabwe's right to protect their borders, to protect their people.

00:48:29.760 But for some reason, when it comes to Britain, when it comes to America, that's seen as racist, bigoted, wrong, invalid, illegitimate.

00:48:38.500 But the truth is, and you've talked about this before, is that your country is like a family in the same way that you don't live in a house because you hate your neighbors.

00:48:47.580 You don't lock your door because you mistrust the person who lives across the street.

00:48:51.380 It's because you love your family.

00:48:53.000 And if you allowed strangers to come into your home to take your children's bed, to take your children's food while they starved and slept on the floor, that wouldn't make you a kind person.

00:49:02.760 That would make you a bad parent.

00:49:04.540 And our government has a responsibility to us.

00:49:07.140 Our government doesn't have a primary responsibility to every single person in the world.

00:49:11.520 That's why God gave us governments, Romans 13.

00:49:14.960 That's why we have countries.

00:49:16.520 That's why we have borders.

00:49:17.600 These are all gifts of common grace that lend themselves to human flourishing.

00:49:23.080 That's how I like to think about it, that God is a God of order, and borders allow order that leads to human good.

00:49:30.660 And those borders, and this is what you underline very helpfully, those borders help to make clear to whom we owe first priority of care and loyalty.

00:49:39.680 And I think that's deeply rooted in creation order.

00:49:42.620 I mean, you know, and this is, you know, what the, in the Christian world we call the principle of subsidiarity.

00:49:49.260 You know, you cannot have a healthy neighborhood or you don't have healthy families.

00:49:51.900 You can't have a healthy city without a healthy neighborhood.

00:49:54.340 And so it's the most basic relationships you've got to get right first.

00:49:58.380 And, Ali Beth, one other illustration I'd love to use just to talk about immigration is, you know, we have very good relations with Canada.

00:50:05.420 But if a million Americans illegally invaded Canada, and I don't mean with guns, I just mean if they walked across the border, Canada would consider that an act of war.

00:50:16.500 This is, in other words, the liberal politicians playing around with this and the ideological left, they're not honest about how this actually works.

00:50:23.900 And so I think we need to call them out on it and just say, you know, again, if you mean what you say, turn your passport in.

00:50:28.980 Otherwise, let's be honest.

00:50:30.460 Right. And the DOJ, this is just insane to me, right before the election, the DOJ is suing states like Virginia because Virginia threw off non-citizens from their voting rolls.

00:50:41.580 And the DOJ is actively saying, no, you can't do that.

00:50:45.460 It seems that they're saying, no, we want these non-citizens to vote. 0.99

00:50:49.780 If non-citizens can vote, then what special rights and privileges do we have as citizens? 0.99

00:50:56.100 And then, again, that's just another way to undermine our sovereignty.

00:51:01.140 I was kind of surprised by the audacity of this administration.

00:51:04.820 Maybe I shouldn't be.

00:51:06.080 Right.

00:51:07.240 Yeah, you know, you hear the argument, and I've seen this in several soundbites with people who are asked pointed questions just as you raise the issue.

00:51:15.000 And they say, it doesn't happen.

00:51:16.440 It can't happen.

00:51:17.240 And we want to make sure it continues.

00:51:19.160 You know, in other words, it doesn't happen, but we want to make sure people have the right to do that.

00:51:23.620 Yep.

00:51:23.840 But it's just absolute dishonesty.

00:51:27.300 And by the way, I think this is one of those issues, if you look at the Virginia polling, when the Virginia governor says this and the federal government says, no, you can't do that, you know, an astounding number of Virginians have their eye opened on that question.

00:51:41.220 The public understanding of immigration in Texas has reversed itself in 20 years.

00:51:47.280 And frankly, you've got even Republican politicians who've had to reverse their argument in 20 years because they've had to come to a new reality of what illegal immigration means.

00:51:56.240 And so I think we need to call out the hypocrisy and the dishonesty when we see it.

00:52:00.640 Yep, absolutely.

00:52:01.580 Dr. Moeller, I think we're having you on next month to talk about your book that's coming out before Christmas.

00:52:08.000 But could you give people maybe a little sneak peek of that book?

00:52:12.960 Yeah, thank you, Allie, Beth.

00:52:14.340 That's very kind.

00:52:15.200 The book is now out.

00:52:16.180 It's Recapturing the Glory of Christmas, and it's a 40, 25-day, in this case, day devotional that should help Christian families and parents to understand.

00:52:27.180 It's deeply biblical.

00:52:28.040 I really dive into the scriptural glory of Christmas and help folks to see it.

00:52:35.020 And I really hope it encourages Christian families and Christians to recapture the glory of Christmas.

00:52:41.580 You know, it's one thing for us to look at all the confusions of Christmas and bemoan them.

00:52:45.420 That's all true.

00:52:47.500 But in our own homes and our own hearts, we need to recapture the glory of Christmas.

00:52:51.920 And that's the title of the book.

00:52:53.380 So thank you for asking.

00:52:54.800 Yes, and I love that so much.

00:52:56.280 And I love that we're talking about a book that's going to come out after the election.

00:53:00.060 It reminds us that the world is going to go on, that the Lord is always going to be worthy of celebration, that we continue to do what Christians have always done.

00:53:11.580 That against the powers, that be against the powerful ideologies of our day, we continue to give glory to God.

00:53:17.640 And so thank you so much for writing that.

00:53:19.080 I'm excited.

00:53:19.840 Our family is definitely going to be using that this Christmas.

00:53:22.280 So thank you, Dr. Mohler.

00:53:24.060 I really appreciate you, and we'll see you back here soon.

00:53:27.980 Allie Beth, I'm so thankful for you and your voice, and just keep at it.

00:53:33.300 We need you desperately.

00:53:34.360 So God bless you.

00:53:35.400 Thank you very much.

00:53:36.360 Likewise.

00:53:41.580 Thank you very much.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 21, 2024

Ep 1086 ｜ To Your Christian Friends Who Won’t Vote ｜ Guest： Dr. Albert Mohler

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