Ep 11 ｜ ＂First, Satire. Then, Sexuality.＂
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Summary
In this episode of Relatable, I talk to Kyle Mann, editor-in-chief of The Babylon Bee, a Christian news satire site that highlights the hypocrisies of Christianity and the hypocrisy of some of the people in our faith.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. It is Allie Stuckey. This is CRTV's Relatable.
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Today, I am going to talk to the editor-in-chief of The Babylon Bee. If you don't know about The
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Babylon Bee, it is a satire site that highlights either quirks of Christianity or the outright
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hypocrisy of some of the people in our faith. And it does a really effective and I think a clever job
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of making Christians really think about what they believe, the teachings that they follow,
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and some of the habits that they might even have. We talk about what The Babylon Bee is,
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its mission, how it actually fills a void, a very serious void in Christianity,
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and some of the biggest problems in the church today. I really love talking to him and I think
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that you're going to find his insight really helpful and really enjoyable. And then after that,
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I am going to answer one question that y'all have been asking me to address over and over and over
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again. And that is the question of homosexuality within the church. I thought that this was a good
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time to address it considering the Pope's recent comments. So you will want to stick around for that
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at the end. But first, my conversation I recorded yesterday with Kyle Mann. Here it is.
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Kyle, thank you so much for joining me. I'm really glad that you're here. I've been wanting to talk to
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you for a long time. So first, can you tell the audience who you are and what you do?
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Yeah, I am. My name is Kyle Mann. I'm the editor-in-chief of The Babylon Bee, which is a Christian news
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satire site. So we do satire and comedy on everything from Christian culture, church culture,
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to current events, politics, worldviews. So we kind of run the whole gamut in terms of what we talk about.
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Christian news satire site. And how long has Babylon Bee been around?
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It launched in March of 2016. So we're a little over two years old. And it kind of blew up right
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away. So yeah, it's been getting more and more popular since we launched two years ago. And I've
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been with it since pretty much day one. Okay. And what was the impetus for the Babylon Bee to begin?
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How'd y'all come up with this idea? Well, my friend Adam Ford launched it. And I joined up
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within a couple of days of the launch. But he was kind of noticing that there wasn't really anybody
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doing satire from a Christian worldview, which, you know, a Christian worldview, that can mean all kinds
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of things. But basically, all the satire that was out there, especially news satire, was being put
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out from a very kind of secular viewpoint, a very, very liberal viewpoint. You know, not that we want
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to pigeonhole ourselves into being like the conservative alternative, but that we wanted
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to be able to do a more balanced, fair satire from a from a Christian perspective.
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Why do you think that is that satire, and really a lot of good humor in general,
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is pretty non-existent, or it feels non-existent within mainline Christianity?
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Yeah, you know, Christians, Christians, a lot of times we have a hard time laughing at ourselves,
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because, you know, a lot of things, a lot of things that we care about, you know, are are really
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important. You know, so there's a lot of things within Christianity that are sacred. And our problem
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is that we take, we take our respect for the sacred, and we kind of extend that to everything
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that we do. You know, we kind of, we kind of end up saying that everything that we do, and all the
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assumptions that we have, and all the opinions we have, and all our funny tendencies are off limits
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for satire, when really, yeah, there are topics that are, that are off limits for satire, or that we
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wouldn't, we wouldn't make, we wouldn't put in a, in a silly light, you know, important, important things
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that we talk about. But at the same time, you know, we need to be able to laugh at ourselves,
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and we need to be able to separate the silly from the sacred.
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But it's not only self-deprecating humor that I think the Babel MD is so good at. You guys also
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go after political issues. And like you said, not just conservative issues, not just liberal issues.
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I'm sure you kind of make both sides of the political aisle mad. When did that start? And why did
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you think that that was, you know, important for a Christian satire site to do?
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Yeah, I mean, right, you know, every time we post something political, there's people on our,
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you know, on our comments saying, you know, you need to stay out of the politics and just stick
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Yeah. But right from day one, you know, we've been, we've been in politics. And I think right,
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if you go back and look at our very earliest articles, our very first picture was a picture of
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President Obama crying, you know, or something like, you know, that he was upset that we were
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launching a Christian satire site or something. You know, so I think it's really important for us
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to be able to satirize not only our own, not only our own little idiosyncrasies, but also the wider
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culture, because there are so many flaws and inconsistencies in the wider secular culture and
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in that worldview that we need to be able to point out if we're going to, if we're going to help
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defend kind of what we would say is a, is a solid biblical worldview.
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Yeah. And that's what I think is, is lost on some people when it comes to satire and sarcasm
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is that you're actually making an effective point. It's not only being, being self-deprecating. It's not
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only being critical. You're actually making a legitimate point about hypocrisy. Do you think that
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Yeah. I mean, you know, it, good satire always has a purpose and it always has a point.
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You know, good satire isn't just, isn't just comedy. It isn't just humor. And so that's a big
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misunderstanding. Like, you know, we'll post something about something really serious,
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you know, like abortion or gun control or something that is an important thing that we need to be talking
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about, you know, people will say, well, this isn't, this isn't a topic for comedy. Well,
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it's not comedy per se, you know, it might use comedy, but it's satire. It's, it's trying to make
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a point and it's trying to make an impact, you know? So we do get, and we do get letters from
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people and messages from people saying, you know, thank you for that piece. I never thought of it
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that way. Or, you know, uh, this, this helped me to understand, you know, this viewpoint a little
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better. So even though satire distorts and exaggerates and, and it makes a funny point,
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it's supposed to, it's supposed to inform people too. Do you get a lot of hate though? There's got
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to be people that don't like the Babylon Bee. Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, everybody has
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their own, everybody has their own sacred cow or, or, you know, their own topic that's off limits for
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them. And you'd be surprised, you know, some of the pieces that we publish that we feel are,
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you know, kind of lighthearted or, you know, this is something that's kind of a slam dunk that no one's
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going to get upset about. And there's always, you know, there's always somebody. So that's why I
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think satire is an important tool for us as Christians, you know, is, is, it's something
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where we can look at these areas that we've, we've made all these idols in the Christian life. We've
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made all these idols in the church and we want to be able to, to point those out so that maybe people
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won't worship those idols. Right. So you kind of wrote a book that encompasses at least some of
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the stuff that Babylon Bee covers as well, how to be a perfect Christian. Why did you write that book?
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Yeah, we wrote that book because, you know, I love books. I love writing. I love reading.
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Me and Adam really wanted to do something that, that would help separate, you know, what all these
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assumptions that we've made about church culture from what the true Christian faith is. Because a
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lot of times we look at Christianity, like, you know, for the past 2000 years, everybody has worshiped
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in the same way that the American church worships today. And that's not true. You know, so we want,
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we want to separate and say there is a biblical gospel, you know, and, and at the heart of the
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Christian faith. And we want to call people to a truer understanding of that. So, you know,
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it's a couple hundred pages. It's, it's kind of an all encompassing, comprehensive narrative. It goes
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from step one to step 10 of how you can conform to Christian culture, obviously, you know, in a
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satirical way, but we started out with telling you how to join the right church and, you know,
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how to join a small group and all these little funny things that we, that we have kind of lifted
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up within the, within the American church. So I grew up in the church. I grew up in the Bible
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belt. So I've seen a lot of these inconsistencies and hypocrisy within the church. And what I like
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about the Babylon Bee is that you guys call that out, but a lot of people are probably mad that you
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guys do that. Right. So people will look at our book, you know, or our site and they'll say,
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hey, you're mocking Christianity or you're mocking God, you know, you're mocking the church.
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But, you know, really it's because we love the church that we want to call the church to a greater
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understanding of, of what the Christian faith is, because kind of that Bible belt Christianity has
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so many things that, you know, maybe they're good things even, you know, maybe, maybe they're things
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that are, that are good or, you know, or that we agree with. But if you make that like a, if you make
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that like a requirement for faith, and then you look at believers on the other side of the world,
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you know, that are not worshiping in the way that the American church is, and you kind of look down
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on them for not doing that, then that's, then that's a big problem. Then we've kind of introduced
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legalism into our faith. And that's really what we wanted to push back is at the end of the book,
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we want people to sit down and say, hey, you know, God is full of grace for us. And God, you know,
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through Christ has offered us a way of salvation that, that doesn't take any effort on our part.
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We don't have to conform to any man-made standards or regulations.
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What do you think, what would you say is kind of the biggest problem, if you could sum it up,
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one of the biggest problems that you're seeing in modern American Christianity right now?
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Yeah, the biggest, the biggest problem that we see within kind of, at least within our tradition
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of Christianity, like, if you kind of set aside all the problems that we know are problems,
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like the prosperity gospel, like all these other things, you know, I think one of the biggest
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problems that we see is that people have taken their own church tradition and elevated that to a
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level of, to the same level as the Bible, you know, and this is something that's personal for me,
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because that's something that I did when I was younger, is I would look at, you know,
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I was studying theology. I love theology. I love reading about the Bible and about God.
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And I would read these things and kind of, and then kind of judge anyone else who didn't see
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things the way that I did. And I feel like that's such a huge obstacle to understanding each other
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as Christians and being able to be more effective in the way that we relate to one another and in
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But some things I think that the Babylon Bee sees as not just liturgical differences, but,
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but, you know, gospel differences, I mean, you guys aren't afraid to call out the Andy Stanleys
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and obviously the Joel Osteens and the Stephen Furticks. But I think even doing those secondary
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and tertiary pastors that, you know, some people aren't really sure if Stephen Furtick is a true
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gospel pastor, Andy Stanley is a true gospel pastor, but you guys just go right for that. And you call
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them out. I mean, that's gotta be, I mean, that's gotta be kind of hard sometimes to try to make
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those decisions knowing that you're going to make a lot of people mad.
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Yeah. You know, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't really call Andy Stanley a false teacher or anything,
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but, you know, and he's done a lot of good for the church, but, you know, we have these concerns.
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And so what satire does is it takes this concern and it blows it up to a bigger level where we say,
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you know, I think our last article was, you know, Andy Stanley checks himself into theological rehab,
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you know, so we, so we have him checking into the theological rehab center to help, you know,
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help him work through these problems. And so we feel like that's a fair
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criticism where we say, you know, okay, there's some deficiencies in the way that he said this
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thing, you know, where maybe that needs to be addressed and maybe he needs to, he needs to
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think about that a little more. And maybe we can, you know, obviously we're probably not going to
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change Andy Stanley's mind, you know, through satire, but probably hopefully people who,
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you know, haven't heard of that or have heard of that and have some concerns can be illuminated and
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can learn about that. You know, I have some friends that are like, you know, I only get my news
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through the Babylon beat because I read, I read what you say and I'm like, did this really happen?
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And then I go, I go search for it. And sure enough, there's a story about it. And so, yeah,
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so hopefully, you know, there's ways that we can call out people that we would see as false teachers
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and also people that I wouldn't say are false teachers, but maybe, you know, I've had some kind
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of an issue where it needs to be addressed. It needs to be talked about.
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Yeah. Well, you'll obviously keep a finger on the pulse of what, you know, people in the
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reformed theology camp are talking about on a day-to-day basis, because I might not get my
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news from the Babylon beat, but I'm in a lot of those conversations. And so the conversations I'm
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seeing on Facebook are, for example, about Andy Stanley or about Planned Parenthood. And then I know
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that I can go over to the Babylon beat the next day and see that reflected. So how do y'all do that?
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How do y'all kind of keep in the know on what's going on in those conversations?
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Yeah, you know, there's a few sources we'll go to. Adam just launched a site called the Christian
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Daily Reporter. So I personally use that a lot, christiandailyreporter.com. And he kind of,
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you'll aggregate a bunch of things that are going on both in the wider secular culture and then
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more within, you know, in-house stuff within Christianity. I use that a lot. You know,
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we'll use Twitter. We use all this stuff. We have a few different voices, a few different writers
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that, you know, obviously come from different backgrounds and have different experiences.
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And their fingers are on the pulses of different areas within Christianity. So maybe someone will
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bring something up. A writer will post something in our little internal online group, you know,
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and they'll post something like, hey, what about, let's do an article about this. And maybe it's
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something I've never heard of, you know, but then I'll go look online and sure enough,
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people are talking about this or that. So, you know, it's definitely a balancing act of trying
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to, uh, trying to figure out what people are talking about, you know, and posting it at the
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right time where conversation is starting. And then sometimes we want to do something that
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nobody's talking about and we want to call attention to it and hopefully get people talking
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about it also. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about the team. You mentioned a little bit about
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what y'all do to keep in the know, but tell me about the team as a whole and just what y'all are
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like and how y'all work together. Yeah. I mean, for a long time, it was mostly me and Adam doing
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most of the content, you know, so people kind of look at our, at the ridiculous number of articles
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we write and, you know, kind of assume we've got, we've got a couple dozen writers, but for most of
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the, most of the time, it's been me and Adam. Um, we had, we have a, an online group that has, uh,
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some writers, you know, a dozen plus writers that, that contribute ideas. Um, and, uh, and so we'll,
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we'll draw on them or, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot of collaboration where someone will
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post an idea and we'll think about it. We'll edit it. We'll, you know, we'll mess with it until,
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until it's something that, that really fits what the Babylon Bee is, uh, is all about. So yeah,
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you know, there's a lot of collaboration. It's all online. You know, I, most of us haven't met each
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other in person, but yeah, that makes sense. I mean, that's the great thing about 2018 is that
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you can run a successful business from anywhere. When did you guys know that it was going to be
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big? You know, when Adam launched it, I mean, he obviously had the good, uh, business sense and
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had his finger on the pulse of, of kind of Christianity, you know, online Christianity or
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whatever to, to, uh, tell that this was something that, that this was a void that where nobody else was
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doing this kind of up to the minute, uh, cutting satire. You know, there's people doing comedy, but
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usually not this kind of satire, or at least not exclusively satire. So he thought it would be
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decent, but he, I mean, he assumed it was going to be a side project for him. And, you know, I think
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I told him in the beginning, I'd write him an article a week or something. And that's kind of what we
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thought is we'd be posting a few articles a week and it would be the side project thing. But I mean,
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it just, it just blew up. So we didn't know it was going to go. We didn't know it was going to go
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nuts like it did. And, and it was just all, all viral, organic, just word of mouth that spread it,
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you know, for the past couple of years. What I love about it too, is that I see a lot of non-Christians
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on my timeline, like Ben Shapiro, other people kind of in his Jewish circle and other non-Christians
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that really like it, which is almost surprising to me. Cause I'm like, you don't even get this. Do you
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even know who this person is that they're making fun of? But have you guys seen that? Have you seen
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more and more kind of non-churched and, uh, you know, non-Christian people liking and sharing the
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Babylon Bee? Yeah. You know, obviously there's going to be, there's going to be times where our
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take on a particular issue is really going to line up with certain, certain, you know, areas within,
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with on the American political spectrum. And, you know, we've seen it from both sides. You know,
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we did an article, uh, kind of going against Donald Trump and his, his, uh, the thing that he was
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having, you know, Stormy Daniels or whatever. And that thing just blew up within the liberal side of
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things, you know, we'll share something against Planned Parenthood and you see, you know, you see
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the Ben Shapiros and those kinds of guys sharing. And so we like that we can kind of, you know,
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remain true to who we are and say, Hey, this is our take. And we're going to publish this take,
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whether or not, you know, these people, these people from without, you know, outside the
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Christian circles, whether or not they like it, but you know, when they do share, we do like that.
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We appreciate it, of course. Yeah. What would you say the goal is for the Babylon Bee? Five-year
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plan if you have one. You know, we're going to retire to a tropical island, uh, you know,
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eventually, but perfect. Start a church, right? An online mega church that it's completely sarcastic
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and satirical sermons every single Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to launch the Babylon
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Bee church and a line of fast food restaurants. Um, no, we're, you know, we're, we're, uh, we,
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we've always said that we want the Babylon Bee to make people laugh and then make people think.
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So that's, and that's kind of just our mission statement is that we want, we want to communicate
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truth through satire in a way that, that nobody else is doing right now. And so we're just going
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to keep doing that. Obviously we're looking at expanding and in various ways, trying to different
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types of content and get our content seen by people who maybe haven't heard of it. You know,
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we're always surprised, you know, we think that the Bee has gone so, so huge in the past couple of
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years, but you're always surprised to the people who haven't heard of it. Yeah. It's like,
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well, where have you been for the, for the past couple of years? But so there's obviously,
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there's a ton of people out there that we can still reach with our, with our stuff.
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Do you think that it could start some kind of movement within the Christian faith to where
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one, Christians aren't taking everything so seriously. And two, that other Christians feel
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free to employ humor to make a point because people like John Crist, I don't know if you've
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heard of John Crist, for example, he's one of the only, I think, funny Christians. He's a standup
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comedian. He makes the funny videos. He does a really good job of this self-deprecating humor too.
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Do you think that's something that we could see more of?
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Yeah. I mean, obviously I don't want to, I don't want to like, you know, over-exaggerate what,
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you know, what we're capable of and say, we're, you know, we're going to start a new
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reformation or anything. But, you know, I do hope that kind of subtly we can, we can bring,
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you know, a little more levity and a little more thoughtfulness to how we engage each other
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as Christians, you know, there, you know, there, and there have been a lot of great Christian
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comedians out there. So I don't want to pretend like we're the first ones to do it. You know,
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Tim Hawkins is hilarious and John Crist, you know, has his videos up and there's been, you know,
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there's been Christian comedians for decades, you know, so they're out there and that kind of stuff
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was being done. It's just that we didn't see anybody really commenting on a lot of, you know,
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the full wide range of subjects that we can talk about from the serious, all the way to the silly
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real things that we do in church. So that's kind of what we wanted to, to focus on.
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Yeah. Well, I can tell you that I really appreciate it. I know a lot of my friends who,
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you know, they speak fluent sarcasm and maybe they're not thinking about these issues in a way
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that, uh, in a way that really corresponds with how the mainstream would usually talk about them,
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but they really like the Babylon Bee and just how you're able to employ humor in order to make a
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serious point. And I can tell you from my perspective that I think you're making a
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difference. So thank you so much for everything you guys do. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Okay. I hope that
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you guys enjoyed that. I really did. If you can't tell, I love the Babylon Bee. Honestly,
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I was like kind of nervous having that conversation because I'm kind of like fangirling over the Babylon
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Bee. Um, I'm just, I'm just a big believer in the effectiveness of satire. I also think that you
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have to be really smart, uh, not just to understand it, but especially to actually use it. Um, it's
00:21:15.300
just this idea of taking something to its most extreme to make a legitimate point. Just so good.
00:21:20.800
Um, I'm also going to do a giveaway of Kyle's book, how to be a perfect Christian. I've read some of it.
00:21:27.120
It's really funny. Um, I will be announcing that on social media soon. So you should stay tuned now
00:21:33.100
for a pressing question that I've been getting for a while now, but I have, I don't want to
00:21:39.240
say I've avoided it, but I've put it off for a while because it just takes a lot to address and
00:21:45.260
it's something that you want to address carefully. Um, but at the same time, even though I've been
00:21:50.220
pushing it off, I still want to honor what you guys want, your guys' request and give you the
00:21:55.420
answers that you are curious about. Um, I have gotten many, many questions on sexuality, homosexuality,
00:22:02.680
transsexuality in the church. Um, another question, probably the second most, second and third most
00:22:08.760
questions I've been asked is about are about Catholicism and Mormonism. And I also want
00:22:13.980
to address those and I will, but it's going to take a little more time than what I have
00:22:18.420
right now. By the way, just let me say a note. Catholicism and Mormonism to me are not at
00:22:24.040
all in the same bucket or in the same, even really realm of conversation, just FYI. But I
00:22:30.840
will address those in more depth from my Protestant reformed theological perspective. One day
00:22:36.480
today we are going to address this topic of homosexuality, um, in the church because the
00:22:42.360
Pope this week was quoted saying to a gay man who had endured sexual abuse that God made him
00:22:47.980
that way and loves him as he is. And also told him not to worry about what other people think
00:22:53.640
about him. Uh, this was a pretty big deal. The catechism of the Roman Catholic church says
00:22:58.240
this particular thing about homosexuality starting in paragraph 2357. Um, it says tradition has always
00:23:05.860
declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural
00:23:10.580
law. They close the sexual acts to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine,
00:23:16.280
effective, and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. They must
00:23:22.600
be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination
00:23:27.900
in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives.
00:23:33.880
And if they are Christians to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's cross, the difficulties
00:23:38.960
they may encounter from their condition. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. So that is what
00:23:45.000
the Catholic catechism says. So some people are saying that, uh, the Pope though, he didn't directly
00:23:51.360
say that he approved of homosexuality. So maybe he didn't go against the catechism,
00:23:55.660
but a lot of people, including me, I mean, like I listened to that and it kind of sounds like he
00:24:01.400
probably approved of it. I mean, he certainly didn't tell the guy that he was called to be
00:24:05.200
chaste. He didn't call him to repentance. Now, um, one, I wasn't there during the conversation.
00:24:10.340
And two, more importantly, I'm not Catholic, so I don't really care what the Pope thinks
00:24:15.220
about anything really, but especially not about biblical sexuality, but it's still, even so it's
00:24:21.280
interesting to see the reaction from Christian Catholics to what the Pope said. Some defend him,
00:24:26.480
some defend traditional Catholic and biblical teaching. Um, I actually think even though I
00:24:31.560
don't agree with Catholicism on everything, I think the catechism in this case actually
00:24:36.400
encompasses really nicely the biblical view on sexuality that has been echoed for centuries
00:24:42.520
and is still held by biblical Christians today. And that is this number one, people who are gay
00:24:47.720
are made in God's image and are worthy of respect and love. And number two, homosexuality is a sin.
00:24:53.440
So let me tell you what the Bible says about homosexuality, because ultimately it doesn't
00:24:59.340
matter what I say, what the Pope says or what the catechism says about homosexuality. What does
00:25:04.680
God's word say? That's the only thing that matters. So here we go. First, if you are gay,
00:25:12.040
God loves you. Of course he does. The Pope was right about that. Of course God loves you. And side note,
00:25:17.600
so do I, you should be treated with the same respect as I am and have the same rights as I do. You are
00:25:24.820
innately valuable. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. Genesis 127 says, all mankind is made in
00:25:34.160
God's image. And therefore, no matter what your sexual orientation is, you have the spark of divinity
00:25:39.700
that makes you more worthy as a human being than any other non-human creature in all the earth.
00:25:46.120
Also, if you are gay, people who aren't gay are not any better than you. Romans 3.23 says,
00:25:53.660
we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So without Christ, we are all dead and hopeless,
00:25:59.740
no matter our sexuality. Which leads us to point number two. Yes, homosexuality is a sin. The Bible
00:26:07.000
is clear on that. People like to say that the Bible only talks about homosexual prostitution or
00:26:12.420
homosexual rape, but that's not actually true. First Corinthians 6.9 says, do not be deceived.
00:26:18.400
Neither of the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
00:26:24.420
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of
00:26:30.140
God. And such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified in the name
00:26:36.640
of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. The Greek for homosexuality in that verse does
00:26:42.340
not refer to prostitution. It doesn't refer to rape, as some people have tried to say. It actually refers
00:26:47.400
to both the active and passive participants in homosexual acts. First Timothy 1.10 lists
00:26:54.080
homosexuality in a similar list of sins. So any attempt to justify homosexuality biblically
00:27:00.120
is really just an attempt to fit it in with the world, which Christians are not called to do.
00:27:05.600
The truth is the only sexual relationship that is condoned and blessed in the Bible
00:27:09.660
is that between one husband and one wife. From beginning to end, the only romantic relationships
00:27:15.900
God calls good are marriages between a man and a woman. There is no deviation from that dichotomy
00:27:21.140
biblically. And say, so say though, you, you took out the verses that prohibit homosexuality
00:27:27.700
explicitly. Let's just look at the idea of marriage in the Bible in general, which is extremely sacred,
00:27:33.240
not just for its physical implications, but also for its spiritual implications.
00:27:37.880
The Bible begins with the marriage between Adam and Eve and ends with the marriage between Christ
00:27:42.260
and his bride, the church. The first is meant to reflect the latter. Ephesians 5.22 through 33 explains
00:27:49.380
this really well. Verse 23 says, the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the
00:27:55.400
church, his body and is himself its savior. Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should
00:28:03.240
submit in everything to their husbands. So we see that marriage is not just a physical relationship with
00:28:09.960
any two people, but a spiritual one, specifically between a husband and a wife. Why does it have to be
00:28:16.360
between a husband and a wife? Because only the complementary relationship between a husband and a wife
00:28:22.160
reflects the spiritual relationship between Christ and the church, in which a wife submits to her
00:28:27.680
husband just as the church submits to Christ, and a husband loving and serving his wife as Christ loves
00:28:34.780
and serves the church. So in homosexual marriage, not only are you losing the physically complementarian
00:28:41.040
aspect that we see God intended when he created man and woman in Genesis, but also the spiritually
00:28:46.840
complementarian aspect that God meant for marriage. There is no husband and wife in a homosexual marriage.
00:28:52.540
Therefore, there is no clearly defined headship and submission roles. Therefore, there is no parallel to
00:29:00.020
the spiritual reality God says is meant to reflect marriage. The creation of marriage in the Bible
00:29:05.340
between one man and one woman isn't arbitrary. It's not just a suggestion. It wasn't cultural. It's not
00:29:10.660
archaic. It is purposeful. So what does this mean for the Christian who is homosexual or the homosexual
00:29:18.000
person who is contemplating Christianity or the Christian who is struggling with homosexuality? Well, the Bible
00:29:26.660
makes it pretty simple. Not easy by any means, but simple. And the simple answer is repentance. No, that doesn't
00:29:35.280
mean praying the gay away. That doesn't mean hating yourself, but it does mean denying yourself what all
00:29:43.320
Christians are called to do. If homosexuality is a sin, then like all other sins, it has to be turned
00:29:49.600
away from. That might mean living a life of chastity. Yes, just as the person who is straight but never marries
00:29:57.220
must also be chaste his or her whole life. It's not about depriving gay people from happiness.
00:30:04.320
It's about keeping marriage, which God defines as between a man and a woman, sacred. This means
00:30:10.440
denying what you want for the sake of what God wants. And that is not exclusive to people who are
00:30:17.380
homosexual. That is what we are all commanded to do as Christians, gay or straight. Jesus says in
00:30:22.800
Matthew 16, 24, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
00:30:30.360
That means denying our fleshly sinful desires, all of them, including homosexuality. No one is saying
00:30:39.120
that that is easy. No one is saying that that is popular. But when have Christians ever been called
00:30:45.060
to a life of ease or popularity? Never. We've always been weird. We're supposed to be weird. And this
00:30:51.540
particular subject is going to continue to make us weird forever. We are going to be called bigots.
00:30:56.780
We are going to be called Pharisees, self-righteous, judgmental. We will lose jobs over it. We will lose
00:31:01.620
relationships over it. Some people's lives will be ruined over this. I guarantee you that this podcast
00:31:07.740
will be dug up one day soon or a long time from now. And people will say, see, Allie Stuckey, see,
00:31:14.040
she's just hateful and she doesn't deserve to have any platform. It will probably happen simply for
00:31:19.300
saying what the Bible says about sexuality. And then you do have to ask the question, though,
00:31:25.300
why? Why is this subject so much touchier than any other subject? Well, I think the Bible actually
00:31:34.780
talks about this. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6, 18, flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person
00:31:42.180
commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. See, there's this
00:31:49.220
other dimension to sexual sin that's different than, say, stealing or lying because you're sinning
00:31:55.300
against your own self. Sexuality is so tied up with our identity, with who we are. There is a spiritual
00:32:03.060
component to it that makes it so much more than a physical act. There's a reason why breakups hurt,
00:32:10.060
why divorces hurt, why one night stands hurt, because we're never just engaging in a physical act with
00:32:16.700
someone. There is a spiritual, emotional component to every sexual act we commit. That is why when we
00:32:23.580
speak against homosexuality, the gay community, in general at least, feels that Christians are against
00:32:28.820
them as people. They are not able to separate their sexuality from who they are. And rightly so,
00:32:35.640
in some ways, sexuality and your spirituality and your identity are intertwined. God made us that way.
00:32:41.560
But even though they're intertwined, they are not inseparable and they're not the same. Your sexuality
00:32:48.020
does not define you. It is not all that you are. It is not your entire identity. So when we say that
00:32:56.200
homosexuality is a sin that needs to be repented of, it's not an attack on the person. It's an attack
00:33:03.160
on the sin. But we also cannot expect someone who is outside of Christ to understand that because the
00:33:09.860
gospel is foolishness to the world. Rosaria Butterfield was a lesbian for over 20 years of
00:33:17.620
her life. She was in a committed relationship with a woman. She was sure that the life that she was
00:33:22.980
living was right and good and really had no reason to question it until she was introduced to Christ
00:33:29.060
and he changed her life. She left the woman that she loved deeply, repented of her sin,
00:33:36.460
and has changed so many people's stories and so many people's lives because of her testimony.
00:33:43.520
In 2016, Jen Hatmaker made a statement assuring the holiness of homosexual marriage.
00:33:50.860
And Rosaria Butterfield responded to Jen Hatmaker in an article on the Gospel Coalition.
00:33:56.600
Here is an excerpt from that article that is called Love Your Neighbor Enough to Speak the Truth.
00:34:03.040
And I really want to read the entire thing because it's so good, but you can look it up. Like I said,
00:34:09.220
it's Love Your Neighbor Enough to Speak the Truth. But I do want to read an excerpt from it that I think
00:34:14.900
just speaks to the heart of everything we're talking about. Rosaria says,
00:34:19.780
If this were 1999, the year that I was converted and walked away from the woman and lesbian community I
00:34:25.800
loved. Instead of 2016, Jen Hatmaker's words about the holiness of LGBT relationships would have flooded
00:34:32.660
into my world like a balm of Gilead. Yes, I can have my Jesus and my girlfriend. Yes, I can flourish both in
00:34:40.500
my tenured academic discipline, which was queer theory and English literature and culture, and in my church.
00:34:47.200
Maybe I wouldn't need to lose everything to have Jesus. Maybe the gospel wouldn't ruin me while I waited,
00:34:52.600
waited, waited for the Lord to build me back up after he convicted me of my sin and I suffered the
00:34:57.500
consequences. Maybe it would go differently for me than it did for Paul, Daniel, David, and Jeremiah.
00:35:03.380
Maybe Jesus could save me without afflicting me. Maybe the Lord would give me respectable crosses,
00:35:08.900
manageable thorns. Today, I hear Jen's words, words meant to encourage, not discourage, to build up,
00:35:15.620
not tear down, to defend the marginalized, not broker unearned power. And a thin trickle of sweat
00:35:21.900
creeps down my back. If I were still in the thick of the battle over the indwelling sin of lesbian
00:35:27.320
desire, Jen's words would have put a millstone around my neck. I learned through conversion that when
00:35:33.840
something feels right and good and real and necessary, but stands against God's word, this reveals the
00:35:39.900
particular way Adam's sin marks my life. Our sin nature is to deceive us. Sin's deception isn't just
00:35:47.700
out there. It's also deep in the caverns of our hearts. How I feel does not tell me who I am.
00:35:57.000
Only God can tell me who I am because he made me and takes care of me. He tells me that we are all
00:36:03.200
born as male and female image bearers with souls that will last forever and gendered bodies that will
00:36:09.060
either suffer eternally in hell or be glorified in the new Jerusalem. Genesis 127 tells me that there are
00:36:15.780
ethical consequences and boundaries to being born male and female. When I say this previous sentence
00:36:21.820
on college campuses, even ones that claim to be Christian, the student protesters come out in
00:36:26.940
dozens. I'm told that declaring the ethical responsibilities of being born male and female
00:36:31.900
is now hate speech. Calling God's sexual ethic hate speech does Satan's bidding. This is Orwellian
00:36:41.280
nonsense or worse. I only know who I really am when the Bible becomes my lens for self-reflection
00:36:48.320
and when the blood of Christ so powerfully pumps my heart whole that I can deny myself, take up the
00:36:55.360
cross and follow him. There is no goodwill between the cross and the unconverted person. The cross is
00:37:03.480
ruthless. To take up your cross means that you are going to die. As A.W. Tozer has said,
00:37:09.960
to carry a cross means you are walking away and you are never coming back. The cross symbolizes what
00:37:16.720
it means to die to self. We die so that we can be born again in and through Jesus by repenting of our
00:37:23.040
sin, even the unchosen ones, and putting our faith in Jesus, the author and finisher of our salvation.
00:37:29.040
The supernatural power that comes with being born again means that where I once had a single desire,
00:37:34.560
one that says if it feels good, it must be who I really am. I now have twin desires that war within
00:37:41.320
me. For the desires of the flesh are against the spirit and the desires of the spirit are against
00:37:45.940
the flesh. For these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
00:37:52.820
Galatians 5 17. And this war doesn't end until glory. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.
00:38:02.060
Her story is so incredibly powerful. Um, I'm trying to get her to come on my podcast,
00:38:08.120
but I haven't been able to do that quite yet. I'm going to keep trying. Uh, there's another
00:38:12.500
amazing person, Christopher Yuan. I think that's how you say his last name with a similar story to
00:38:18.040
Rosaria's that I would also love to talk to. So I'll keep you posted on that. I'll definitely be
00:38:22.900
doing another podcast on this. Uh, but that's it for today. That's not just my take on it, by the way,
00:38:28.080
that's not just Rosaria's take on it. That's not the church's take on it. That's the biblical take.
00:38:32.900
We can get into this game of saying, well, did the Bible really mean this? Or isn't that just
00:38:37.960
archaic? Or isn't that just, you know, old fashioned, outdated. But once you start picking
00:38:43.000
apart the Bible and choosing which parts you want to believe in, which ones you don't based on your
00:38:46.920
own preferences, that reveals something not about God's word, but about your own heart.
00:38:51.720
It reveals that you don't really believe in the Bible or the God who wrote it. You believe in you.
00:38:57.000
You believe in what you feel. And that's not Christianity. That's at best agnosticism,
00:39:03.580
if not atheism. So I hope that this answers some of the questions that you guys have.
00:39:10.020
If you have feedback, like always, please email me,
00:39:13.660
ally at the conservative millennial blog.com. And you can also follow me on social media,
00:39:18.080
on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Love you guys and see you next week.