Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 11 ｜＂First, Satire. Then, Sexuality.＂

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. It is Allie Stuckey. This is CRTV's Relatable.

00:00:05.380 Today, I am going to talk to the editor-in-chief of The Babylon Bee. If you don't know about The

00:00:11.120 Babylon Bee, it is a satire site that highlights either quirks of Christianity or the outright

00:00:16.840 hypocrisy of some of the people in our faith. And it does a really effective and I think a clever job

00:00:23.660 of making Christians really think about what they believe, the teachings that they follow,

00:00:28.400 and some of the habits that they might even have. We talk about what The Babylon Bee is,

00:00:34.600 its mission, how it actually fills a void, a very serious void in Christianity,

00:00:39.540 and some of the biggest problems in the church today. I really love talking to him and I think

00:00:46.000 that you're going to find his insight really helpful and really enjoyable. And then after that,

00:00:52.400 I am going to answer one question that y'all have been asking me to address over and over and over

00:00:57.780 again. And that is the question of homosexuality within the church. I thought that this was a good 1.00

00:01:02.940 time to address it considering the Pope's recent comments. So you will want to stick around for that

00:01:07.940 at the end. But first, my conversation I recorded yesterday with Kyle Mann. Here it is.

00:01:14.240 Kyle, thank you so much for joining me. I'm really glad that you're here. I've been wanting to talk to

00:01:18.760 you for a long time. So first, can you tell the audience who you are and what you do?

00:01:25.040 Yeah, I am. My name is Kyle Mann. I'm the editor-in-chief of The Babylon Bee, which is a Christian news

00:01:31.960 satire site. So we do satire and comedy on everything from Christian culture, church culture,

00:01:42.100 to current events, politics, worldviews. So we kind of run the whole gamut in terms of what we talk about.

00:01:48.760 Christian news satire site. And how long has Babylon Bee been around?

00:01:53.040 It launched in March of 2016. So we're a little over two years old. And it kind of blew up right

00:02:00.300 away. So yeah, it's been getting more and more popular since we launched two years ago. And I've

00:02:06.320 been with it since pretty much day one. Okay. And what was the impetus for the Babylon Bee to begin?

00:02:14.020 How'd y'all come up with this idea? Well, my friend Adam Ford launched it. And I joined up

00:02:19.840 within a couple of days of the launch. But he was kind of noticing that there wasn't really anybody

00:02:26.120 doing satire from a Christian worldview, which, you know, a Christian worldview, that can mean all kinds

00:02:33.580 of things. But basically, all the satire that was out there, especially news satire, was being put

00:02:40.420 out from a very kind of secular viewpoint, a very, very liberal viewpoint. You know, not that we want

00:02:48.040 to pigeonhole ourselves into being like the conservative alternative, but that we wanted

00:02:52.500 to be able to do a more balanced, fair satire from a from a Christian perspective.

00:02:58.280 Why do you think that is that satire, and really a lot of good humor in general,

00:03:03.060 is pretty non-existent, or it feels non-existent within mainline Christianity?

00:03:10.800 Yeah, you know, Christians, Christians, a lot of times we have a hard time laughing at ourselves,

00:03:15.820 because, you know, a lot of things, a lot of things that we care about, you know, are are really

00:03:20.800 important. You know, so there's a lot of things within Christianity that are sacred. And our problem

00:03:25.960 is that we take, we take our respect for the sacred, and we kind of extend that to everything

00:03:33.000 that we do. You know, we kind of, we kind of end up saying that everything that we do, and all the

00:03:37.320 assumptions that we have, and all the opinions we have, and all our funny tendencies are off limits

00:03:43.720 for satire, when really, yeah, there are topics that are, that are off limits for satire, or that we

00:03:48.900 wouldn't, we wouldn't make, we wouldn't put in a, in a silly light, you know, important, important things

00:03:54.920 that we talk about. But at the same time, you know, we need to be able to laugh at ourselves,

00:03:58.960 and we need to be able to separate the silly from the sacred.

00:04:02.120 But it's not only self-deprecating humor that I think the Babel MD is so good at. You guys also

00:04:08.020 go after political issues. And like you said, not just conservative issues, not just liberal issues.

00:04:14.300 I'm sure you kind of make both sides of the political aisle mad. When did that start? And why did

00:04:21.100 you think that that was, you know, important for a Christian satire site to do?

00:04:26.200 Yeah, I mean, right, you know, every time we post something political, there's people on our,

00:04:31.700 you know, on our comments saying, you know, you need to stay out of the politics and just stick

00:04:36.480 to religion.

00:04:37.140 I love it. It's my favorite part.

00:04:38.700 Yeah. But right from day one, you know, we've been, we've been in politics. And I think right,

00:04:44.740 if you go back and look at our very earliest articles, our very first picture was a picture of

00:04:49.100 President Obama crying, you know, or something like, you know, that he was upset that we were

00:04:55.500 launching a Christian satire site or something. You know, so I think it's really important for us 1.00

00:05:02.260 to be able to satirize not only our own, not only our own little idiosyncrasies, but also the wider

00:05:09.760 culture, because there are so many flaws and inconsistencies in the wider secular culture and

00:05:16.240 in that worldview that we need to be able to point out if we're going to, if we're going to help

00:05:20.660 defend kind of what we would say is a, is a solid biblical worldview.

00:05:25.600 Yeah. And that's what I think is, is lost on some people when it comes to satire and sarcasm

00:05:33.120 is that you're actually making an effective point. It's not only being, being self-deprecating. It's not

00:05:39.120 only being critical. You're actually making a legitimate point about hypocrisy. Do you think that

00:05:45.340 that has been effective?

00:05:47.600 Yeah. I mean, you know, it, good satire always has a purpose and it always has a point.

00:05:54.740 Right.

00:05:55.000 You know, good satire isn't just, isn't just comedy. It isn't just humor. And so that's a big

00:05:59.980 misunderstanding. Like, you know, we'll post something about something really serious,

00:06:03.640 you know, like abortion or gun control or something that is an important thing that we need to be talking

00:06:09.340 about, you know, people will say, well, this isn't, this isn't a topic for comedy. Well,

00:06:14.000 it's not comedy per se, you know, it might use comedy, but it's satire. It's, it's trying to make

00:06:18.540 a point and it's trying to make an impact, you know? So we do get, and we do get letters from

00:06:22.660 people and messages from people saying, you know, thank you for that piece. I never thought of it

00:06:26.980 that way. Or, you know, uh, this, this helped me to understand, you know, this viewpoint a little

00:06:31.440 better. So even though satire distorts and exaggerates and, and it makes a funny point,

00:06:35.960 it's supposed to, it's supposed to inform people too. Do you get a lot of hate though? There's got

00:06:41.960 to be people that don't like the Babylon Bee. Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, everybody has

00:06:48.060 their own, everybody has their own sacred cow or, or, you know, their own topic that's off limits for

00:06:53.460 them. And you'd be surprised, you know, some of the pieces that we publish that we feel are,

00:06:58.640 you know, kind of lighthearted or, you know, this is something that's kind of a slam dunk that no one's

00:07:03.160 going to get upset about. And there's always, you know, there's always somebody. So that's why I

00:07:07.240 think satire is an important tool for us as Christians, you know, is, is, it's something

00:07:11.600 where we can look at these areas that we've, we've made all these idols in the Christian life. We've

00:07:16.320 made all these idols in the church and we want to be able to, to point those out so that maybe people

00:07:20.500 won't worship those idols. Right. So you kind of wrote a book that encompasses at least some of

00:07:26.080 the stuff that Babylon Bee covers as well, how to be a perfect Christian. Why did you write that book?

00:07:32.000 Yeah, we wrote that book because, you know, I love books. I love writing. I love reading.

00:07:36.960 Me and Adam really wanted to do something that, that would help separate, you know, what all these

00:07:43.320 assumptions that we've made about church culture from what the true Christian faith is. Because a 0.98

00:07:48.000 lot of times we look at Christianity, like, you know, for the past 2000 years, everybody has worshiped

00:07:53.580 in the same way that the American church worships today. And that's not true. You know, so we want,

00:07:57.660 we want to separate and say there is a biblical gospel, you know, and, and at the heart of the

00:08:02.940 Christian faith. And we want to call people to a truer understanding of that. So, you know,

00:08:07.280 it's a couple hundred pages. It's, it's kind of an all encompassing, comprehensive narrative. It goes

00:08:12.800 from step one to step 10 of how you can conform to Christian culture, obviously, you know, in a

00:08:18.980 satirical way, but we started out with telling you how to join the right church and, you know,

00:08:22.720 how to join a small group and all these little funny things that we, that we have kind of lifted

00:08:27.520 up within the, within the American church. So I grew up in the church. I grew up in the Bible

00:08:32.520 belt. So I've seen a lot of these inconsistencies and hypocrisy within the church. And what I like

00:08:38.480 about the Babylon Bee is that you guys call that out, but a lot of people are probably mad that you

00:08:43.780 guys do that. Right. So people will look at our book, you know, or our site and they'll say,

00:08:48.120 hey, you're mocking Christianity or you're mocking God, you know, you're mocking the church.

00:08:52.960 But, you know, really it's because we love the church that we want to call the church to a greater

00:08:57.520 understanding of, of what the Christian faith is, because kind of that Bible belt Christianity has

00:09:02.840 so many things that, you know, maybe they're good things even, you know, maybe, maybe they're things

00:09:07.020 that are, that are good or, you know, or that we agree with. But if you make that like a, if you make

00:09:13.840 that like a requirement for faith, and then you look at believers on the other side of the world,

00:09:18.460 you know, that are not worshiping in the way that the American church is, and you kind of look down

00:09:22.540 on them for not doing that, then that's, then that's a big problem. Then we've kind of introduced

00:09:26.340 legalism into our faith. And that's really what we wanted to push back is at the end of the book,

00:09:30.500 we want people to sit down and say, hey, you know, God is full of grace for us. And God, you know,

00:09:36.400 through Christ has offered us a way of salvation that, that doesn't take any effort on our part.

00:09:42.440 We don't have to conform to any man-made standards or regulations.

00:09:47.300 What do you think, what would you say is kind of the biggest problem, if you could sum it up,

00:09:52.680 one of the biggest problems that you're seeing in modern American Christianity right now?

00:09:58.060 Yeah, the biggest, the biggest problem that we see within kind of, at least within our tradition

00:10:05.620 of Christianity, like, if you kind of set aside all the problems that we know are problems,

00:10:10.240 like the prosperity gospel, like all these other things, you know, I think one of the biggest

00:10:15.620 problems that we see is that people have taken their own church tradition and elevated that to a

00:10:21.620 level of, to the same level as the Bible, you know, and this is something that's personal for me,

00:10:26.540 because that's something that I did when I was younger, is I would look at, you know,

00:10:29.580 I was studying theology. I love theology. I love reading about the Bible and about God.

00:10:33.660 And I would read these things and kind of, and then kind of judge anyone else who didn't see

00:10:38.960 things the way that I did. And I feel like that's such a huge obstacle to understanding each other

00:10:44.400 as Christians and being able to be more effective in the way that we relate to one another and in

00:10:48.480 the way that we engage the world.

00:10:50.500 But some things I think that the Babylon Bee sees as not just liturgical differences, but,

00:10:56.980 but, you know, gospel differences, I mean, you guys aren't afraid to call out the Andy Stanleys

00:11:02.800 and obviously the Joel Osteens and the Stephen Furticks. But I think even doing those secondary

00:11:07.580 and tertiary pastors that, you know, some people aren't really sure if Stephen Furtick is a true

00:11:14.940 gospel pastor, Andy Stanley is a true gospel pastor, but you guys just go right for that. And you call

00:11:21.340 them out. I mean, that's gotta be, I mean, that's gotta be kind of hard sometimes to try to make

00:11:26.780 those decisions knowing that you're going to make a lot of people mad.

00:11:30.260 Yeah. You know, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't really call Andy Stanley a false teacher or anything,

00:11:33.900 but, you know, and he's done a lot of good for the church, but, you know, we have these concerns.

00:11:38.740 And so what satire does is it takes this concern and it blows it up to a bigger level where we say,

00:11:44.080 you know, I think our last article was, you know, Andy Stanley checks himself into theological rehab,

00:11:49.620 you know, so we, so we have him checking into the theological rehab center to help, you know,

00:11:53.740 help him work through these problems. And so we feel like that's a fair

00:11:56.760 criticism where we say, you know, okay, there's some deficiencies in the way that he said this

00:12:01.060 thing, you know, where maybe that needs to be addressed and maybe he needs to, he needs to

00:12:04.760 think about that a little more. And maybe we can, you know, obviously we're probably not going to

00:12:08.640 change Andy Stanley's mind, you know, through satire, but probably hopefully people who,

00:12:13.380 you know, haven't heard of that or have heard of that and have some concerns can be illuminated and

00:12:18.660 can learn about that. You know, I have some friends that are like, you know, I only get my news

00:12:22.620 through the Babylon beat because I read, I read what you say and I'm like, did this really happen?

00:12:27.460 And then I go, I go search for it. And sure enough, there's a story about it. And so, yeah,

00:12:31.240 so hopefully, you know, there's ways that we can call out people that we would see as false teachers

00:12:35.180 and also people that I wouldn't say are false teachers, but maybe, you know, I've had some kind

00:12:39.360 of an issue where it needs to be addressed. It needs to be talked about.

00:12:42.220 Yeah. Well, you'll obviously keep a finger on the pulse of what, you know, people in the

00:12:48.360 reformed theology camp are talking about on a day-to-day basis, because I might not get my

00:12:53.460 news from the Babylon beat, but I'm in a lot of those conversations. And so the conversations I'm

00:12:58.480 seeing on Facebook are, for example, about Andy Stanley or about Planned Parenthood. And then I know

00:13:04.100 that I can go over to the Babylon beat the next day and see that reflected. So how do y'all do that?

00:13:09.100 How do y'all kind of keep in the know on what's going on in those conversations?

00:13:18.000 Yeah, you know, there's a few sources we'll go to. Adam just launched a site called the Christian

00:13:23.780 Daily Reporter. So I personally use that a lot, christiandailyreporter.com. And he kind of,

00:13:28.780 you'll aggregate a bunch of things that are going on both in the wider secular culture and then

00:13:32.120 more within, you know, in-house stuff within Christianity. I use that a lot. You know,

00:13:37.020 we'll use Twitter. We use all this stuff. We have a few different voices, a few different writers

00:13:40.260 that, you know, obviously come from different backgrounds and have different experiences.

00:13:45.880 And their fingers are on the pulses of different areas within Christianity. So maybe someone will

00:13:50.600 bring something up. A writer will post something in our little internal online group, you know,

00:13:57.020 and they'll post something like, hey, what about, let's do an article about this. And maybe it's

00:13:59.940 something I've never heard of, you know, but then I'll go look online and sure enough,

00:14:03.600 people are talking about this or that. So, you know, it's definitely a balancing act of trying

00:14:07.080 to, uh, trying to figure out what people are talking about, you know, and posting it at the

00:14:12.600 right time where conversation is starting. And then sometimes we want to do something that

00:14:16.780 nobody's talking about and we want to call attention to it and hopefully get people talking

00:14:21.580 about it also. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about the team. You mentioned a little bit about

00:14:26.340 what y'all do to keep in the know, but tell me about the team as a whole and just what y'all are

00:14:31.840 like and how y'all work together. Yeah. I mean, for a long time, it was mostly me and Adam doing

00:14:37.940 most of the content, you know, so people kind of look at our, at the ridiculous number of articles

00:14:43.080 we write and, you know, kind of assume we've got, we've got a couple dozen writers, but for most of

00:14:48.300 the, most of the time, it's been me and Adam. Um, we had, we have a, an online group that has, uh,

00:14:54.780 some writers, you know, a dozen plus writers that, that contribute ideas. Um, and, uh, and so we'll,

00:15:02.460 we'll draw on them or, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot of collaboration where someone will

00:15:06.560 post an idea and we'll think about it. We'll edit it. We'll, you know, we'll mess with it until,

00:15:11.980 until it's something that, that really fits what the Babylon Bee is, uh, is all about. So yeah,

00:15:17.300 you know, there's a lot of collaboration. It's all online. You know, I, most of us haven't met each

00:15:22.100 other in person, but yeah, that makes sense. I mean, that's the great thing about 2018 is that

00:15:27.240 you can run a successful business from anywhere. When did you guys know that it was going to be

00:15:32.040 big? You know, when Adam launched it, I mean, he obviously had the good, uh, business sense and

00:15:38.880 had his finger on the pulse of, of kind of Christianity, you know, online Christianity or

00:15:44.540 whatever to, to, uh, tell that this was something that, that this was a void that where nobody else was

00:15:51.360 doing this kind of up to the minute, uh, cutting satire. You know, there's people doing comedy, but

00:15:57.500 usually not this kind of satire, or at least not exclusively satire. So he thought it would be

00:16:03.020 decent, but he, I mean, he assumed it was going to be a side project for him. And, you know, I think

00:16:08.120 I told him in the beginning, I'd write him an article a week or something. And that's kind of what we

00:16:12.360 thought is we'd be posting a few articles a week and it would be the side project thing. But I mean,

00:16:16.940 it just, it just blew up. So we didn't know it was going to go. We didn't know it was going to go

00:16:20.620 nuts like it did. And, and it was just all, all viral, organic, just word of mouth that spread it,

00:16:26.480 you know, for the past couple of years. What I love about it too, is that I see a lot of non-Christians 0.98

00:16:31.460 on my timeline, like Ben Shapiro, other people kind of in his Jewish circle and other non-Christians

00:16:37.820 that really like it, which is almost surprising to me. Cause I'm like, you don't even get this. Do you

00:16:42.440 even know who this person is that they're making fun of? But have you guys seen that? Have you seen

00:16:47.400 more and more kind of non-churched and, uh, you know, non-Christian people liking and sharing the 0.91

00:16:53.580 Babylon Bee? Yeah. You know, obviously there's going to be, there's going to be times where our

00:16:58.160 take on a particular issue is really going to line up with certain, certain, you know, areas within,

00:17:05.620 with on the American political spectrum. And, you know, we've seen it from both sides. You know,

00:17:11.700 we did an article, uh, kind of going against Donald Trump and his, his, uh, the thing that he was

00:17:18.440 having, you know, Stormy Daniels or whatever. And that thing just blew up within the liberal side of

00:17:24.300 things, you know, we'll share something against Planned Parenthood and you see, you know, you see

00:17:28.600 the Ben Shapiros and those kinds of guys sharing. And so we like that we can kind of, you know,

00:17:35.040 remain true to who we are and say, Hey, this is our take. And we're going to publish this take,

00:17:38.840 whether or not, you know, these people, these people from without, you know, outside the

00:17:43.340 Christian circles, whether or not they like it, but you know, when they do share, we do like that.

00:17:48.440 We appreciate it, of course. Yeah. What would you say the goal is for the Babylon Bee? Five-year

00:17:54.540 plan if you have one. You know, we're going to retire to a tropical island, uh, you know,

00:18:01.180 eventually, but perfect. Start a church, right? An online mega church that it's completely sarcastic

00:18:09.960 and satirical sermons every single Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to launch the Babylon

00:18:14.720 Bee church and a line of fast food restaurants. Um, no, we're, you know, we're, we're, uh, we,

00:18:21.460 we've always said that we want the Babylon Bee to make people laugh and then make people think.

00:18:26.740 So that's, and that's kind of just our mission statement is that we want, we want to communicate

00:18:31.080 truth through satire in a way that, that nobody else is doing right now. And so we're just going

00:18:36.720 to keep doing that. Obviously we're looking at expanding and in various ways, trying to different

00:18:41.360 types of content and get our content seen by people who maybe haven't heard of it. You know,

00:18:45.660 we're always surprised, you know, we think that the Bee has gone so, so huge in the past couple of

00:18:49.960 years, but you're always surprised to the people who haven't heard of it. Yeah. It's like,

00:18:53.040 well, where have you been for the, for the past couple of years? But so there's obviously,

00:18:56.480 there's a ton of people out there that we can still reach with our, with our stuff.

00:19:00.060 Do you think that it could start some kind of movement within the Christian faith to where

00:19:05.100 one, Christians aren't taking everything so seriously. And two, that other Christians feel

00:19:10.180 free to employ humor to make a point because people like John Crist, I don't know if you've

00:19:14.440 heard of John Crist, for example, he's one of the only, I think, funny Christians. He's a standup

00:19:19.360 comedian. He makes the funny videos. He does a really good job of this self-deprecating humor too.

00:19:24.020 Do you think that's something that we could see more of?

00:19:27.620 Yeah. I mean, obviously I don't want to, I don't want to like, you know, over-exaggerate what,

00:19:33.860 you know, what we're capable of and say, we're, you know, we're going to start a new

00:19:37.380 reformation or anything. But, you know, I do hope that kind of subtly we can, we can bring,

00:19:45.980 you know, a little more levity and a little more thoughtfulness to how we engage each other

00:19:50.880 as Christians, you know, there, you know, there, and there have been a lot of great Christian

00:19:54.800 comedians out there. So I don't want to pretend like we're the first ones to do it. You know,

00:19:58.120 Tim Hawkins is hilarious and John Crist, you know, has his videos up and there's been, you know,

00:20:03.700 there's been Christian comedians for decades, you know, so they're out there and that kind of stuff

00:20:07.300 was being done. It's just that we didn't see anybody really commenting on a lot of, you know,

00:20:11.660 the full wide range of subjects that we can talk about from the serious, all the way to the silly

00:20:16.980 real things that we do in church. So that's kind of what we wanted to, to focus on.

00:20:21.820 Yeah. Well, I can tell you that I really appreciate it. I know a lot of my friends who,

00:20:26.960 you know, they speak fluent sarcasm and maybe they're not thinking about these issues in a way

00:20:31.820 that, uh, in a way that really corresponds with how the mainstream would usually talk about them,

00:20:36.780 but they really like the Babylon Bee and just how you're able to employ humor in order to make a

00:20:42.420 serious point. And I can tell you from my perspective that I think you're making a

00:20:46.640 difference. So thank you so much for everything you guys do. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Okay. I hope that

00:20:52.320 you guys enjoyed that. I really did. If you can't tell, I love the Babylon Bee. Honestly,

00:20:58.580 I was like kind of nervous having that conversation because I'm kind of like fangirling over the Babylon

00:21:03.720 Bee. Um, I'm just, I'm just a big believer in the effectiveness of satire. I also think that you

00:21:09.260 have to be really smart, uh, not just to understand it, but especially to actually use it. Um, it's

00:21:15.300 just this idea of taking something to its most extreme to make a legitimate point. Just so good.

00:21:20.800 Um, I'm also going to do a giveaway of Kyle's book, how to be a perfect Christian. I've read some of it.

00:21:27.120 It's really funny. Um, I will be announcing that on social media soon. So you should stay tuned now

00:21:33.100 for a pressing question that I've been getting for a while now, but I have, I don't want to

00:21:39.240 say I've avoided it, but I've put it off for a while because it just takes a lot to address and

00:21:45.260 it's something that you want to address carefully. Um, but at the same time, even though I've been

00:21:50.220 pushing it off, I still want to honor what you guys want, your guys' request and give you the

00:21:55.420 answers that you are curious about. Um, I have gotten many, many questions on sexuality, homosexuality,

00:22:02.680 transsexuality in the church. Um, another question, probably the second most, second and third most

00:22:08.760 questions I've been asked is about are about Catholicism and Mormonism. And I also want

00:22:13.980 to address those and I will, but it's going to take a little more time than what I have

00:22:18.420 right now. By the way, just let me say a note. Catholicism and Mormonism to me are not at

00:22:24.040 all in the same bucket or in the same, even really realm of conversation, just FYI. But I

00:22:30.840 will address those in more depth from my Protestant reformed theological perspective. One day

00:22:36.480 today we are going to address this topic of homosexuality, um, in the church because the

00:22:42.360 Pope this week was quoted saying to a gay man who had endured sexual abuse that God made him

00:22:47.980 that way and loves him as he is. And also told him not to worry about what other people think

00:22:53.640 about him. Uh, this was a pretty big deal. The catechism of the Roman Catholic church says

00:22:58.240 this particular thing about homosexuality starting in paragraph 2357. Um, it says tradition has always

00:23:05.860 declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural 0.74

00:23:10.580 law. They close the sexual acts to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine,

00:23:16.280 effective, and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. They must

00:23:22.600 be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination

00:23:27.900 in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives.

00:23:33.880 And if they are Christians to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's cross, the difficulties

00:23:38.960 they may encounter from their condition. Homosexual persons are called to chastity. So that is what 1.00

00:23:45.000 the Catholic catechism says. So some people are saying that, uh, the Pope though, he didn't directly

00:23:51.360 say that he approved of homosexuality. So maybe he didn't go against the catechism,

00:23:55.660 but a lot of people, including me, I mean, like I listened to that and it kind of sounds like he

00:24:01.400 probably approved of it. I mean, he certainly didn't tell the guy that he was called to be

00:24:05.200 chaste. He didn't call him to repentance. Now, um, one, I wasn't there during the conversation.

00:24:10.340 And two, more importantly, I'm not Catholic, so I don't really care what the Pope thinks

00:24:15.220 about anything really, but especially not about biblical sexuality, but it's still, even so it's

00:24:21.280 interesting to see the reaction from Christian Catholics to what the Pope said. Some defend him,

00:24:26.480 some defend traditional Catholic and biblical teaching. Um, I actually think even though I

00:24:31.560 don't agree with Catholicism on everything, I think the catechism in this case actually

00:24:36.400 encompasses really nicely the biblical view on sexuality that has been echoed for centuries

00:24:42.520 and is still held by biblical Christians today. And that is this number one, people who are gay 1.00

00:24:47.720 are made in God's image and are worthy of respect and love. And number two, homosexuality is a sin. 0.99

00:24:53.440 So let me tell you what the Bible says about homosexuality, because ultimately it doesn't 0.84

00:24:59.340 matter what I say, what the Pope says or what the catechism says about homosexuality. What does

00:25:04.680 God's word say? That's the only thing that matters. So here we go. First, if you are gay, 1.00

00:25:12.040 God loves you. Of course he does. The Pope was right about that. Of course God loves you. And side note, 0.98

00:25:17.600 so do I, you should be treated with the same respect as I am and have the same rights as I do. You are

00:25:24.820 innately valuable. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. Genesis 127 says, all mankind is made in

00:25:34.160 God's image. And therefore, no matter what your sexual orientation is, you have the spark of divinity

00:25:39.700 that makes you more worthy as a human being than any other non-human creature in all the earth. 0.98

00:25:46.120 Also, if you are gay, people who aren't gay are not any better than you. Romans 3.23 says, 0.98

00:25:53.660 we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So without Christ, we are all dead and hopeless,

00:25:59.740 no matter our sexuality. Which leads us to point number two. Yes, homosexuality is a sin. The Bible 0.98

00:26:07.000 is clear on that. People like to say that the Bible only talks about homosexual prostitution or 0.85

00:26:12.420 homosexual rape, but that's not actually true. First Corinthians 6.9 says, do not be deceived. 0.97

00:26:18.400 Neither of the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

00:26:24.420 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of 0.98

00:26:30.140 God. And such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified in the name 0.94

00:26:36.640 of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. The Greek for homosexuality in that verse does 0.98

00:26:42.340 not refer to prostitution. It doesn't refer to rape, as some people have tried to say. It actually refers

00:26:47.400 to both the active and passive participants in homosexual acts. First Timothy 1.10 lists

00:26:54.080 homosexuality in a similar list of sins. So any attempt to justify homosexuality biblically 0.88

00:27:00.120 is really just an attempt to fit it in with the world, which Christians are not called to do. 0.99

00:27:05.600 The truth is the only sexual relationship that is condoned and blessed in the Bible

00:27:09.660 is that between one husband and one wife. From beginning to end, the only romantic relationships

00:27:15.900 God calls good are marriages between a man and a woman. There is no deviation from that dichotomy 0.99

00:27:21.140 biblically. And say, so say though, you, you took out the verses that prohibit homosexuality

00:27:27.700 explicitly. Let's just look at the idea of marriage in the Bible in general, which is extremely sacred,

00:27:33.240 not just for its physical implications, but also for its spiritual implications.

00:27:37.880 The Bible begins with the marriage between Adam and Eve and ends with the marriage between Christ 0.66

00:27:42.260 and his bride, the church. The first is meant to reflect the latter. Ephesians 5.22 through 33 explains

00:27:49.380 this really well. Verse 23 says, the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the

00:27:55.400 church, his body and is himself its savior. Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should 0.98

00:28:03.240 submit in everything to their husbands. So we see that marriage is not just a physical relationship with

00:28:09.960 any two people, but a spiritual one, specifically between a husband and a wife. Why does it have to be

00:28:16.360 between a husband and a wife? Because only the complementary relationship between a husband and a wife

00:28:22.160 reflects the spiritual relationship between Christ and the church, in which a wife submits to her 0.99

00:28:27.680 husband just as the church submits to Christ, and a husband loving and serving his wife as Christ loves

00:28:34.780 and serves the church. So in homosexual marriage, not only are you losing the physically complementarian 0.86

00:28:41.040 aspect that we see God intended when he created man and woman in Genesis, but also the spiritually

00:28:46.840 complementarian aspect that God meant for marriage. There is no husband and wife in a homosexual marriage. 0.96

00:28:52.540 Therefore, there is no clearly defined headship and submission roles. Therefore, there is no parallel to

00:29:00.020 the spiritual reality God says is meant to reflect marriage. The creation of marriage in the Bible

00:29:05.340 between one man and one woman isn't arbitrary. It's not just a suggestion. It wasn't cultural. It's not

00:29:10.660 archaic. It is purposeful. So what does this mean for the Christian who is homosexual or the homosexual 0.98

00:29:18.000 person who is contemplating Christianity or the Christian who is struggling with homosexuality? Well, the Bible 0.91

00:29:26.660 makes it pretty simple. Not easy by any means, but simple. And the simple answer is repentance. No, that doesn't

00:29:35.280 mean praying the gay away. That doesn't mean hating yourself, but it does mean denying yourself what all 0.94

00:29:43.320 Christians are called to do. If homosexuality is a sin, then like all other sins, it has to be turned 1.00

00:29:49.600 away from. That might mean living a life of chastity. Yes, just as the person who is straight but never marries 0.92

00:29:57.220 must also be chaste his or her whole life. It's not about depriving gay people from happiness.

00:30:04.320 It's about keeping marriage, which God defines as between a man and a woman, sacred. This means

00:30:10.440 denying what you want for the sake of what God wants. And that is not exclusive to people who are

00:30:17.380 homosexual. That is what we are all commanded to do as Christians, gay or straight. Jesus says in 0.94

00:30:22.800 Matthew 16, 24, if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

00:30:30.360 That means denying our fleshly sinful desires, all of them, including homosexuality. No one is saying

00:30:39.120 that that is easy. No one is saying that that is popular. But when have Christians ever been called

00:30:45.060 to a life of ease or popularity? Never. We've always been weird. We're supposed to be weird. And this

00:30:51.540 particular subject is going to continue to make us weird forever. We are going to be called bigots.

00:30:56.780 We are going to be called Pharisees, self-righteous, judgmental. We will lose jobs over it. We will lose

00:31:01.620 relationships over it. Some people's lives will be ruined over this. I guarantee you that this podcast

00:31:07.740 will be dug up one day soon or a long time from now. And people will say, see, Allie Stuckey, see,

00:31:14.040 she's just hateful and she doesn't deserve to have any platform. It will probably happen simply for 0.99

00:31:19.300 saying what the Bible says about sexuality. And then you do have to ask the question, though,

00:31:25.300 why? Why is this subject so much touchier than any other subject? Well, I think the Bible actually

00:31:34.780 talks about this. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6, 18, flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person

00:31:42.180 commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. See, there's this

00:31:49.220 other dimension to sexual sin that's different than, say, stealing or lying because you're sinning

00:31:55.300 against your own self. Sexuality is so tied up with our identity, with who we are. There is a spiritual

00:32:03.060 component to it that makes it so much more than a physical act. There's a reason why breakups hurt,

00:32:10.060 why divorces hurt, why one night stands hurt, because we're never just engaging in a physical act with

00:32:16.700 someone. There is a spiritual, emotional component to every sexual act we commit. That is why when we

00:32:23.580 speak against homosexuality, the gay community, in general at least, feels that Christians are against

00:32:28.820 them as people. They are not able to separate their sexuality from who they are. And rightly so, 1.00

00:32:35.640 in some ways, sexuality and your spirituality and your identity are intertwined. God made us that way.

00:32:41.560 But even though they're intertwined, they are not inseparable and they're not the same. Your sexuality 0.88

00:32:48.020 does not define you. It is not all that you are. It is not your entire identity. So when we say that

00:32:56.200 homosexuality is a sin that needs to be repented of, it's not an attack on the person. It's an attack 1.00

00:33:03.160 on the sin. But we also cannot expect someone who is outside of Christ to understand that because the

00:33:09.860 gospel is foolishness to the world. Rosaria Butterfield was a lesbian for over 20 years of 1.00

00:33:17.620 her life. She was in a committed relationship with a woman. She was sure that the life that she was

00:33:22.980 living was right and good and really had no reason to question it until she was introduced to Christ

00:33:29.060 and he changed her life. She left the woman that she loved deeply, repented of her sin,

00:33:36.460 and has changed so many people's stories and so many people's lives because of her testimony.

00:33:43.520 In 2016, Jen Hatmaker made a statement assuring the holiness of homosexual marriage.

00:33:50.860 And Rosaria Butterfield responded to Jen Hatmaker in an article on the Gospel Coalition.

00:33:56.600 Here is an excerpt from that article that is called Love Your Neighbor Enough to Speak the Truth.

00:34:03.040 And I really want to read the entire thing because it's so good, but you can look it up. Like I said,

00:34:09.220 it's Love Your Neighbor Enough to Speak the Truth. But I do want to read an excerpt from it that I think

00:34:14.900 just speaks to the heart of everything we're talking about. Rosaria says,

00:34:19.780 If this were 1999, the year that I was converted and walked away from the woman and lesbian community I

00:34:25.800 loved. Instead of 2016, Jen Hatmaker's words about the holiness of LGBT relationships would have flooded

00:34:32.660 into my world like a balm of Gilead. Yes, I can have my Jesus and my girlfriend. Yes, I can flourish both in

00:34:40.500 my tenured academic discipline, which was queer theory and English literature and culture, and in my church.

00:34:47.200 Maybe I wouldn't need to lose everything to have Jesus. Maybe the gospel wouldn't ruin me while I waited,

00:34:52.600 waited, waited for the Lord to build me back up after he convicted me of my sin and I suffered the

00:34:57.500 consequences. Maybe it would go differently for me than it did for Paul, Daniel, David, and Jeremiah.

00:35:03.380 Maybe Jesus could save me without afflicting me. Maybe the Lord would give me respectable crosses, 0.98

00:35:08.900 manageable thorns. Today, I hear Jen's words, words meant to encourage, not discourage, to build up,

00:35:15.620 not tear down, to defend the marginalized, not broker unearned power. And a thin trickle of sweat

00:35:21.900 creeps down my back. If I were still in the thick of the battle over the indwelling sin of lesbian 1.00

00:35:27.320 desire, Jen's words would have put a millstone around my neck. I learned through conversion that when 0.93

00:35:33.840 something feels right and good and real and necessary, but stands against God's word, this reveals the

00:35:39.900 particular way Adam's sin marks my life. Our sin nature is to deceive us. Sin's deception isn't just

00:35:47.700 out there. It's also deep in the caverns of our hearts. How I feel does not tell me who I am.

00:35:57.000 Only God can tell me who I am because he made me and takes care of me. He tells me that we are all

00:36:03.200 born as male and female image bearers with souls that will last forever and gendered bodies that will

00:36:09.060 either suffer eternally in hell or be glorified in the new Jerusalem. Genesis 127 tells me that there are

00:36:15.780 ethical consequences and boundaries to being born male and female. When I say this previous sentence

00:36:21.820 on college campuses, even ones that claim to be Christian, the student protesters come out in

00:36:26.940 dozens. I'm told that declaring the ethical responsibilities of being born male and female

00:36:31.900 is now hate speech. Calling God's sexual ethic hate speech does Satan's bidding. This is Orwellian

00:36:41.280 nonsense or worse. I only know who I really am when the Bible becomes my lens for self-reflection

00:36:48.320 and when the blood of Christ so powerfully pumps my heart whole that I can deny myself, take up the

00:36:55.360 cross and follow him. There is no goodwill between the cross and the unconverted person. The cross is

00:37:03.480 ruthless. To take up your cross means that you are going to die. As A.W. Tozer has said,

00:37:09.960 to carry a cross means you are walking away and you are never coming back. The cross symbolizes what

00:37:16.720 it means to die to self. We die so that we can be born again in and through Jesus by repenting of our

00:37:23.040 sin, even the unchosen ones, and putting our faith in Jesus, the author and finisher of our salvation.

00:37:29.040 The supernatural power that comes with being born again means that where I once had a single desire,

00:37:34.560 one that says if it feels good, it must be who I really am. I now have twin desires that war within

00:37:41.320 me. For the desires of the flesh are against the spirit and the desires of the spirit are against

00:37:45.940 the flesh. For these are opposed to each other to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

00:37:52.820 Galatians 5 17. And this war doesn't end until glory. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

00:38:02.060 Her story is so incredibly powerful. Um, I'm trying to get her to come on my podcast,

00:38:08.120 but I haven't been able to do that quite yet. I'm going to keep trying. Uh, there's another

00:38:12.500 amazing person, Christopher Yuan. I think that's how you say his last name with a similar story to

00:38:18.040 Rosaria's that I would also love to talk to. So I'll keep you posted on that. I'll definitely be

00:38:22.900 doing another podcast on this. Uh, but that's it for today. That's not just my take on it, by the way,

00:38:28.080 that's not just Rosaria's take on it. That's not the church's take on it. That's the biblical take.

00:38:32.900 We can get into this game of saying, well, did the Bible really mean this? Or isn't that just

00:38:37.960 archaic? Or isn't that just, you know, old fashioned, outdated. But once you start picking

00:38:43.000 apart the Bible and choosing which parts you want to believe in, which ones you don't based on your

00:38:46.920 own preferences, that reveals something not about God's word, but about your own heart.

00:38:51.720 It reveals that you don't really believe in the Bible or the God who wrote it. You believe in you.

00:38:57.000 You believe in what you feel. And that's not Christianity. That's at best agnosticism, 0.91

00:39:03.580 if not atheism. So I hope that this answers some of the questions that you guys have.

00:39:10.020 If you have feedback, like always, please email me,

00:39:13.660 ally at the conservative millennial blog.com. And you can also follow me on social media,

00:39:18.080 on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Love you guys and see you next week.

00:39:27.000 Bye.

00:39:28.000 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 23, 2018

Ep 11 ｜＂First, Satire. Then, Sexuality.＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 23, 2018

Ep 11 ｜ ＂First, Satire. Then, Sexuality.＂

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Ep 11 ｜＂First, Satire. Then, Sexuality.＂