00:02:50.080And the kids that were coming had radically changed.
00:02:53.220So initially this was primarily young boys who were very feminine presenting, whose parents were concerned.
00:02:59.160And it had radically shifted to teenage girls who were significantly mentally ill, who were all identifying as trans and wanting really rapid medical interventions.
00:03:28.440Oftentimes they would come to us after puberty.
00:03:32.040So the bulk of our patients were probably 14 to 16.
00:03:38.520But the clinic did still see kids all the way as young as three.
00:03:42.700So, I mean, this was a giant kind of pediatric practice.
00:03:47.940And when I started in this clinic, I was what we would refer to as a true believer.
00:03:54.240I really believed that we were intervening early to help children identify their true authentic selves and give them a pathway towards, you know, a healthy, authentic adulthood.
00:04:08.500I was going to ask why you started working there in 2018.
00:04:12.960You just said that you were a true believer.
00:04:15.340But even so, there are a lot of people who believe that who don't feel called to get into the actual work of working at a clinic.
00:04:47.040And what I was seeing was that there was this kind of growing cohort of young people who were identifying as trans.
00:04:55.440And there was some overlap in my patient population.
00:04:58.960But in my personal life, I was married to someone who was trans, who had medically transitioned, a woman who had transitioned to live as a male.
00:05:26.680I really felt as that true believer that this was part of my community and these kids were kids that, you know, somehow reflected my experience.
00:05:39.140And so you kind of felt like this was not only just a job, but almost a calling that you're giving back to this vulnerable community.
00:06:19.220And, you know, one of the things I think we see across the nation is these centers really exploded and have just been popping up in red states and rural areas.
00:06:42.380There was no real internal guidelines or mechanisms.
00:06:45.860This was a center that was started in a really well-known hospital, but was really flying by the seat of its pants and had a lot of structural issues.
00:08:06.220That was more of the parental kind of view.
00:08:09.020By the time I left, these kids were brought to us having been completely socially transitioned in multiple environments before they ever saw what would be called a gender specialist.
00:08:21.020These kids had been socially transitioned in school, in their families, in every kind of aspect of their lives.
00:08:27.300That had already occurred well before they ever saw, often saw, any sort of mental health provider.
00:08:33.480You said that there was really a lack of protocol when you first started.
00:08:37.300But what were the typical recommendations for a young boy that was brought in whose parents thought, okay, maybe he's really a girl?
00:08:45.700I think that the phrase watchful waiting was a little bit more still in existence at the time.
00:08:54.900A lot of this is also, there isn't a medical element to this.
00:09:00.000So the original protocol as the Dutch and the Netherlands divides this was that you would start a child on a pubertal blockade when they reach Tanner 2 of puberty.
00:09:10.340Yeah, and can you explain what that is?
00:09:12.600Yeah, so they Tanner stage puberty into five stages.
00:09:17.620It's not necessarily directly correlational to just blood work.
00:09:23.940An endocrinologist is actually doing a physical exam of the body.
00:09:27.880So they're looking for early signs of puberty, breast budding, testicular growth.
00:09:32.260I mean, this is a body process that takes a long time.
00:09:35.760The pituitary gland, all of these glands in the brain are basically talking to our secondary sex organs and they're telling them, you know, turn on, turn off.
00:09:47.540Puberty is a, puberty in my opinion now is a human right because the body requires these steps.
00:09:55.200And the brain requires the pruning and the slowness of how puberty engages.
00:10:01.000But what we were looking for initially was, is the child in Tanner stage 2 of puberty?
00:10:07.520And if so, then the question is, are we going to initiate a puberty blockade to block them and then eventually give them cross-sex hormones?
00:10:17.840And puberty blockers, if it's in a young girl who is in Tanner stage 2, which I think is like when you start seeing the physical outward signs of puberty that you would think like right before a girl starts her period or something like that.
00:10:30.980So Tanner 2 is even earlier than right before menstruation.
00:10:34.860And so right before those things, that's when endocrinologists would say, okay, we got to block the testosterone in boys.
00:10:41.420We got to block the estrogen in girls.
00:10:43.680And how long would that process typically last?
00:10:46.540The part of this medical establishment that really shows me that it is not a tried and true, well-tested paradigm is that there were even debates over that itself.
00:11:02.960There were some endocrinologists in gender clinics who would allow kids to be puberty blocked for a very long time.
00:11:09.960And then there were other endocrinologists that were saying that they would put in an age guideline.
00:11:15.920So I had an endocrinologist I worked with that would say by a certain age, you had to move on to sex hormones for the body's bone growth and bone development.
00:11:25.840But again, I've even seen cases now in clinical studies where there are young people who are asking endocrinologists to never be put on sex hormones and asked to remain in a pre-pubital status ongoing.
00:11:41.220And I've even seen ethical papers argue on the other side that this is their right and they should be able to do this.
00:11:48.920The damage to the body is just immense.
00:11:53.480I think a lot of people don't realize that puberty is necessary for intellectual maturation, your ability to be able to understand consequences.
00:12:03.240And there just seems to me, and we can get into this more later, but a nefarious motivation.
00:12:09.740Like what kind of people would want to prolong basically eternal adolescence and young people and prevent them from being able to make wise choices and to keep their body in a state of like pre-pubescent development?
00:13:26.040And that's such a dereliction of duty because we understand that children do not have the capacity to make these kinds of decisions.
00:13:34.940And in every other area of children's lives, legally, children are considered incapacitated.
00:13:41.880They're dependent upon their parents to be able to give consent to a whole variety of things, or there are many things they can't even do at all.
00:13:51.980And so the idea that we're placing these life-changing decisions on the backs of children is, to me, such a violation of their basic human right to be able to rely upon the judgment and the maturity of their parents to be able to make wise decisions on their behalf.
00:14:10.280Children don't want these decisions on their shoulders either, though.
00:14:14.360They might, especially adolescents, might say, well, I, you know, that they will vocalize things like, well, I could decide, I could figure this out.
00:14:25.060But I think part of why we see such high anxiety and depression levels in children right now is because we are putting on their shoulders some of these considerations that never should have been theirs to worry about.
00:14:38.500And I think kids actually do better in environments where we as the adults say, hey, we're the adults.
00:14:53.760And that's true in all different realms.
00:14:55.400Kids want boundaries, and they will push and push until you say, no, it stops here.
00:14:59.920And when we're talking about mutilating your body, it would seem like in that situation, more than any other situation, there should be some adult that says no.
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00:16:01.040This changed so quickly from parents who were hearing watch and wait, but I'm sure some who did go through with social transition and puberty blockers,
00:16:08.940to parents bringing their kids in, fully affirming their newfound identity.
00:16:13.560So, what changed with what the doctors recommended?
00:16:18.220Was it still telling these teen girls watch and wait, or was it, yeah, let's sign you up for cross-sex hormones?
00:16:23.920The doctors absolutely were, let's sign you up.
00:16:27.920They really had the way that they worked was, if the child says that they're trans, and if the child says that they want what these drugs give,
00:16:40.300then why would I stop them from doing this?
00:16:43.640But the other thing that shifted in this period of time was there has been this huge cultural shift into this belief structure that trans is the new civil rights era,
00:16:56.060that it is gay 2.0, and that if the parents or the, if our culture didn't just immediately affirm this, that they were, you know, not being the good liberal citizen of our country.
00:23:09.580That is not what was required to get her breasts cut off.
00:23:12.540What is, what was required from what you saw to get a surgery like that?
00:23:18.480So first of all, I do want to point out that the clinicians that I work with did lie to my state's legislature and say that we were not discussing surgeries with minors.
00:25:57.120There's absolutely no reason why we're doing this to children.
00:25:59.400It was the boys that really, I took the longest to really understand how wrong this is.
00:26:10.920This whole concept really came out of this idea that, you know, trans adults who wanted to pass as women didn't pass.
00:26:22.520And they, they did not, you know, as society, they didn't pass and they felt uncomfortable.
00:26:28.160And so, you know, we started doing this to kids and I kept holding on to this little piece of like, yeah, but these, you know, like maybe the boys, maybe this is still right for the boys.
00:26:40.180And it was seeing the boys that we had actually puberty blocked and then put on cross-sex hormones.
00:26:46.780I was there long enough to see what should have been the trajectory into them doing well.
00:27:01.540They would come in and, and in the grossest way, my endocrinologist would sometimes come out of the room and say things like, I made these beautiful breasts, like he was playing God.
00:27:13.580But when I was working with these young people from that social, psychological functioning part, they were not even getting a GED.
00:27:23.720They were not getting a driver's license.
00:27:25.420They were not this like functional human being that we, we want adolescents to become.
00:27:31.640And part of what I started to recognize was we had lied to them as children.
00:27:38.600And we were asking them to sit with this lie about who they were.
00:27:47.000And part of adolescence, part of the requirement of becoming an adult is this real integration of who am I?
00:27:55.600That's what we ask people to do when they become an adult.
00:28:01.240You're this, you're this, you're this, this whole being, but you're an adult now.
00:28:05.800And when we set up these kids with a lie, they could not progress through that because they fundamentally were presenting to the world and they could not reconcile this lie internally.
00:28:20.540And so they were fundamentally unable to really take those steps into adulthood.
00:28:26.880And that was what I saw when I let everything else and I was just holding on to maybe this is right for these boys.
00:28:33.740It was that damage that I saw in these boys, that they always would have to sit with this lie.
00:28:45.420Another pause to tell you about our next sponsor.
00:28:48.160There was this really sad Danish study that I saw the other day that shows that a year after aborting,
00:28:55.260women exhibit a 50% higher likelihood of first-time psychiatric treatments and an 87% higher likelihood of personality and behavioral disorders.
00:29:07.680The pro-abortion side would like us to think that abortion is just like getting a tooth extracted.
00:29:14.320There is no emotional implications for it, but that's just not true.
00:29:18.600It's ending the life of a child that you created.
00:29:21.280It's not only bad and deadly for the child.
00:29:56.440Do you think that the effect of the puberty blockers on their brain and the kind of inhibition of maturation that happens through natural puberty—I mean, you are talking about basically a failure to launch in some cases.
00:30:14.700They weren't independent, they weren't happy, they weren't getting their driver's license.
00:30:20.560And what's so interesting is that this field pretended like this has been around forever and we know all the science.
00:30:26.620It's only after I leave that I start to also see papers coming out where they did not do enough of the actual—they didn't do the follow-up studies in the original protocol.
00:30:38.760And now what it looks like is we do see that IQ is affected.
00:30:43.460There's parts of the brain that pruning happens when you're in adolescence where, you know, the superfluous neuropathways are pruned down and then there's really, you know, strengthening of the neuropathways that we need.
00:30:56.300And it does seem like, too, those things have to kind of hit in a sequential order for the brain to reach that full development.
00:31:06.260And so we do have this whole cohort of children in this country and globally that we performed an unauthorized medical experiment on.
00:31:18.080And I don't even think we've begun to grapple with what are the long-term effects of those experiments and will these children and their families ever actually receive justice?
00:31:29.720And it's something important to mention because I've heard your story many times and I know it so well.
00:31:36.480Did these boys or did these kids actually improve in their mental health?
00:31:41.700That's right, because the whole justification for doing these radical alterations in their bodies is that, well, it's going to keep them from committing suicide.
00:31:51.340It's going to help their mental health.
00:31:53.660Now, in practice, though, did you see that or not?
00:32:32.460These were fully affirming environments.
00:32:34.520These are parents who fully embraced this.
00:32:37.000They were in school systems where they were kind of held up on a pedestal.
00:32:41.600Like, this was, this is not a bullying, so, no.
00:32:45.200And these kids were not getting better.
00:32:48.380And we see that even in places like Sweden who have been affirming this thing for a long time.
00:32:53.240The study, the landmark study from a few years ago that showed that men who transition into women actually had no fewer thoughts of suicidal ideation and actually committed suicide at the same rate of those who identified as transgender before their transition.
00:33:10.840And so, I don't even think that we have solid evidence that proves that this is improving outcomes.
00:33:17.700You talked about how the young girls who came in, they had lots of other mental health problems.
00:34:58.380I mean, this was a socially mediated belief that they were, that they believed that they were blind.
00:35:04.660And we also saw children who believed that they had these real serious, I mean, socially mediated contagion illnesses are some of the hardest to treat.
00:35:16.820You have to get first at the concept that they will even recognize that they might have something that's not biologically driven.
00:35:29.880And then the issue that I was butting up against also from like a social science perspective is the clinicians could see that these kids had all of these other socially mediated illnesses.
00:35:41.800And when I said trans is one of those, they were like, oh, but no, trans is the authentic, true self.
00:35:52.780And I'm like, really, because this child hits every single other marker and their parent says that they had no gender distress in childhood, no gender distress even six months ago.
00:36:06.820Was there any doctor that you talked to, any endocrinologist, any therapist that you discuss this with who was like, yeah, you might be right?
00:36:14.560There was a nurse that I worked with that we were really close, and we shared a lot of the same concerns.
00:36:22.320Our child psychiatrist would sometimes share those same concerns.
00:36:27.240What I learned after I left the center was that there was an endocrinologist who had a position of authority within this division.
00:36:35.460And when they went to try to open the center, the endocrinologist was saying, I don't think the science is here.
00:36:42.680And that person was actually pushed out of their leadership position.
00:36:46.000And the center was opened against that person's real, true, better judgment and scientific evidence.
00:36:53.760And yes, I think that we have just been in a culture of so much fear that as soon as my story broke, there were so many doctors within even the system that I worked in emailing me saying, thank God you said this.
00:37:11.000And what's difficult for me, though, is that I was not in the same position of authority that these clinicians had, and they couldn't take the step.
00:37:25.660I think that if there were more of them, if more people were brave enough to step up, it wouldn't fall on just a small number of our shoulders.
00:37:33.460But I think what we're talking about is ideological capture of a portion of the medical community.
00:37:41.000Which is a very dangerous place to be.
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00:40:40.080And that's when you see someone being unfairly maligned or bullied or reaping consequences for standing up for what is right or standing up for something that you believe in too,
00:40:49.860rather than us cowering in the corner and saying, wow, I'm glad that's not me.
00:40:53.560Now I'm not going to speak up because I don't want that to happen to me.
00:40:56.220We say, no, whatever arrows you're throwing at them, you can throw at me too.
00:41:00.920And when we all do that, that makes a big difference.
00:41:33.240And it's, I also felt like I was going up against what many people would say is my community.
00:41:40.340I mean, I, you know, the gay and lesbian community, I thought that I was just going to be a pariah and completely ostracized.
00:41:48.540And what immediately started happening was email after email after email of all of these people who had been fighting this fight for years already.
00:41:56.500I didn't even know so many of them existed.
00:41:58.840But, I mean, I had one person reach out to me, send an email, and she said, just so you know, you're my new best friend.
00:42:04.240And I've, and she shared with me her writing and her work.
00:42:08.760And this was a liberal, you know, lefty woman who, she just was like, we're out here.
00:42:15.660We've been fighting this, and we are ready to embrace you.
00:42:19.360And that's really all that's happened is I've just been supported in so many ways from so many different angles, though, too.
00:42:27.800I can truly say now I have friends in every single partisan, I mean, from like weird libertarians, and I don't entirely know what they're talking about all the time, to, you know, some of these really high-placed Republicans, to normal Democrats, to, you know, all across the board.
00:42:50.120But this issue is so damaging, and it has caused so much harm, but it also has this ability to break apart some of these divisions in our country in such a powerful way.
00:43:07.540I mean, it has brought together, I mean, that's the blessing, Allie.
00:43:11.140It's that it has brought together people who would otherwise never be aligned with each other at all.
00:43:19.080Far left, far right, just laying aside all of that, and it's becoming a rallying cry.
00:43:26.200That and parental rights, but, and so, and they're rallying around, around Jamie.
00:43:32.380You know, and that, and the courage that they're seeing.
00:43:34.380Yes, and Jamie, tell me a little bit about your spouse, because you mentioned that she was transgender.
00:43:42.080Were you sharing with her at the time all of the stuff that you were concerned about, especially about the young women, and how did that go?
00:43:54.880Roxy never was as on board with transitioning kids as I was.
00:44:00.640So there are definitely a lot of individuals who have medically transitioned as adults who absolutely were never in support of doing this to kids.
00:44:11.360She never believed that this was a good idea, in part because she had transitioned herself as an adult and just recognized how challenging it was and how many, you know, individual decisions had to be made.
00:44:25.500So initially was never on board with this for kids, but then when the, when I blew the whistle, it really, I think, caused this real rift in our marriage because it really put in front of her pathway this reckoning point that she was not ready to do.
00:44:48.860And it took a very long time for her, and so one of the things that has been challenging for that relationship was that, in some ways, I really did have to step out alone to blow the whistle.
00:45:04.280Because at this point, did you kind of feel like, not just children, but the entire concept of transitioning was harmful and maybe based on a lie?
00:45:14.860So I absolutely recognized that I felt my own spouse had transitioned as a response to trauma.
00:45:22.080And I absolutely felt that I could see, especially within the lesbian community, that so many gender nonconforming lesbian women were medically transitioning in response to trauma and response to our society really just not accepting their gender nonconformity as masculine women.
00:45:41.020And so to me, I think that kind of gets back to this concept of true trans and no.
00:45:47.800So I recognized, you know, that true trans is really kind of a misnomer because what it ignores is that there's so many pathways into this for people.
00:45:59.820Trauma, vulnerability, autism, gender nonconformity in childhood, just being a gay or lesbian adult.
00:46:07.520Like there's so many pathways in that I think it's a misnomer to talk or pretend like there's really this true authentic self that is trans.
00:46:14.980I hold a position really now that's kind of challenging to nuance, but there are so many adults who have already done this that we still have to provide them compassion, love, and care, and acceptance.
00:46:33.800And while we start to have the questions about what does the, I'm all about evidence, what does the evidence show us?
00:46:40.820The evidence shows us this is not the right pathway for children, period, end of story.
00:46:52.380She has completely ceased testosterone and is starting to think about ways to kind of reintegrate, you know, that biological sex that was always there as an outward presentation.
00:47:08.180I bet that's been quite the journey too.
00:47:09.980She has been doing this with such grace and also the way that I would hope anybody who goes to do this does this, which is support, mental health treatment, getting a therapist, going slow, and just taking the time to try to reintegrate in a way that works.
00:47:31.960You don't have to know all of the, you don't have to have all the answers to say, this is my actual biological sex.
00:47:40.840You don't have to know that to just embrace, this is my real biological sex.
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00:48:48.120Bernadette, you've seen this from the legal side.
00:48:50.740You don't only know Jamie's story and everything that she encountered, but you know the stories of a lot of people who have been affected by this industry, by this process.
00:48:59.900Can you talk just a little bit about that?
00:49:06.240So I'm seeing both the things that are happening, particularly in schools, that are, in a sense, feeding the monster.
00:49:13.020What Jamie described is what I call it as a monster, and it has many tentacles that are going into virtually every portion of our society is going into our government.
00:49:22.980We had a federal government that was pushing this, and that's when it exploded as a misdirection of their distortion of Title IX.
00:49:33.480And media, just really every portion of our society, but the one that is most toxic towards children and most harmful has been the school and the academic.
00:49:44.460And so we talk about, in our practice, we talk about the school-to-clinic pipeline that they've set up.
00:49:50.580So what we've seen, and we have many parents we work with, and we have lawsuits over, are children that are secretly transitioned.
00:49:57.520So one of them, I'm thinking of the Paris family.
00:50:00.160So their little girl, she was 12, this is a Catholic-Christian family, had never had any gender dysphoria, and really didn't have any mental health problems to speak of, just a normal kid.
00:50:14.540But she was bullied a bit at school, and she thought, you know, boys are stronger, so I just want to be a boy.
00:50:22.180That alone then catalyzed this process where privately the school counselor started to meet with her.
00:50:27.800Her parents had no idea to promote and endorse this idea that, well, maybe I should be a boy, and maybe I am a boy.
00:50:37.680A public school, or did you say Catholic school?
00:51:55.540Now, I'll say her name because there's now a law in her honor that they're trying to pass in Virginia.
00:52:00.260She had had trauma as a child, talking about the trauma pathway.
00:52:06.760And so when she hit puberty, see, there's just a lot of things that line up, begins to trans-identify.
00:52:15.000That causes her to become sexually harassed at school because they're telling her, and she's tiny, she's five or tall, to use the boy's bathroom.
00:52:27.380So, Sage, she runs away because she doesn't feel safe.
00:52:32.140And when she runs away, she runs into the arms of an adult pedophile who raped her and trafficked her to other men and took her across state lines.
00:52:43.500And when she's found in Maryland, the woke judge doesn't want to give her back, the system there in Baltimore, because they discover that her parents might not be affirming of her male identity.
00:53:43.420And that's the kids see, so then, what is it that's feeding the clinic that Jamie worked at?
00:53:50.640Well, are these school officials that are endorsing this lie to susceptible children who are in the process of development who believe trusted adults?
00:54:02.180When the trusted adult says, maybe your problem is that you were born in the wrong body.
00:55:15.200So we have 24, 25 states that are trying to protect kids, and we have 24, 25 states that are not.
00:55:22.760And so what my coalition is working to do every day is to try to make sure those other states start to protect these kids.
00:55:33.540And we also have to pull this out of this kind of, you know, cultural mess of a conversation that we've got going on and really bring this back to real simple basics.
00:55:43.460Children have the right to grow up with their fertility, their sexual function, and their endocrine systems intact, whole, and functional.
00:56:09.580And parents have the right to know what is going on with their child.
00:56:14.660Laws, even in conservative states, and well, you would be able to tell me, but from my understanding, counselors really don't have to tell parents.
00:56:23.960They are legally obligated to keep some of these conversations confidential between them and this child.
00:56:40.140So in most states, actually, parents, they do have the right to know what's going on, even in counseling sessions, unless they have consented to not knowing.
00:56:52.280And it really is, it is different from state to state.
00:56:55.420So the first thing I tell the parents, and then there are some states like California and Oregon and Washington and really the deep blue states in which, unfortunately, now kids have the right as early as 12 or 13 to be able to consent to mental health treatment without their parents being involved at all.
00:57:12.900And these kids are in a world of hurt.
00:57:25.540Because the last, you know, story I'll share, and we talk about how to tear this monster down, is Child Protective Services being weaponized.
00:57:36.880And we have right now a case in California.
00:57:38.880I have one already in Arizona, but a case in California where a family, an immigrant family, has lost custody of their child because she is gender dysphoric, she's gender confused, and these parents believe in biological reality.
00:57:55.760So the thing I want, Jamie and I talked about, we're hoping that your audience realizes that, number one, don't expect because you're maybe a conservative family or a Christian family that your child is safe, is immune from this.
00:58:35.520So we have, so the most important thing is that by the time a family gets to me, okay, to either Jamie, the former Jamie, or to me as a lawyer, they're in a world of hurt.
00:58:50.200So we're wanting to talk about, and we'll share a little bit about resources and recruiting the faith community, the church, to get to a place to, as you said, inoculate our children and our families before we get there.
00:59:09.040Well, we will absolutely share those resources.
00:59:12.160We'll make sure to link them in the description of this episode.
00:59:14.740My producer is telling me that we do have to wrap, although I could talk to you guys for hours, and I just want to say I'm so thankful for your courage.
00:59:23.740You could have moved on, moved to a different job, make sure that your kids still get tuition help to a university, and you chose to sacrifice on behalf of people who may never thank you or know how you positively impacted their life.
00:59:38.300And, of course, you too, I mean, just legally on the front lines, I mean, this fight just wouldn't exist without lawyers who are willing to take up this cause many times at personal cost.
00:59:48.420And so I just want to thank y'all so much.
00:59:51.060Courage begets courage, and you just never know who's going to watch her listen to this and take up the cause of courage because of what y'all are doing.
00:59:57.060So thank you, and I am praying and doing whatever small thing I can from this microphone to just link arms with you guys and to try to end this, and I think that we can.