Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1109 ｜ Whistleblower Shares The Gruesome Truth About Trans 'Care' ｜ Guests： Jamie Reed & Vernadette Broyles

00:00:00.820 Jamie Reid is a whistleblower from the Washington University Transgender Center at St. Louis

00:00:07.480 Children's Hospital.

00:00:08.960 She is speaking out about the troubling things she saw there, why she went from transgender 1.00

00:00:13.680 affirming to who she is today, an advocate against child transitions.

00:00:19.500 We also have Bernadette Broyles, who is the president and general counsel of the Child

00:00:24.100 and Parental Rights Campaign.

00:00:26.200 They are sharing Jamie's story today, as well as some other cases that Bernadette is working

00:00:31.880 on.

00:00:32.400 And wow, this is going to blow your mind and you will be inspired by both of their courage.

00:00:38.040 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:41.240 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:42.460 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:00:43.560 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:45.220 Jamie, Bernadette, thanks so much for joining Relatable.

00:00:59.020 First, Jamie, could you tell us who you are and what you do?

00:01:01.480 Yes.

00:01:02.120 My name is Jamie Reid.

00:01:04.440 I worked in a pediatric transgender center for close to five years.

00:01:08.940 I am currently the executive director of the Courage Coalition.

00:01:12.920 We are a group of primarily adult gays and lesbians who are trying to stop the current

00:01:20.080 practices of pediatric gender medicine and support gays and lesbians, and especially those

00:01:25.940 who are maybe gender non-conforming, to grow up with their bodies whole and intact.

00:01:31.140 And Bernadette, you're her attorney.

00:01:33.280 I am.

00:01:33.940 Yes.

00:01:34.360 Can you tell us a little bit about what kind of law you practice and why you're in this?

00:01:38.880 Sure.

00:01:39.200 I'm the president and general counsel of the Child Apprential Rights Campaign.

00:01:42.800 We are five attorneys in different parts of the country.

00:01:46.440 And we bring cases on behalf of parents whose children have been socially transitioned behind

00:01:52.060 the backs of the parents, sometimes even over their objections.

00:01:56.020 And we are also now more and more defending parents whose children are being threatened by

00:02:01.360 child protective services.

00:02:02.580 And Jamie, let's go all the way back to how I initially heard about you and your story.

00:02:09.880 Your report came out, what you saw at a gender clinic, what was happening with children.

00:02:14.780 So just take us back there to the clinic, what you saw and why you do the work that you do now.

00:02:22.120 So I worked in this clinic across the period of time where this really started to explode in our culture.

00:02:30.520 And what years were?

00:02:31.240 So I started in 2018 and I left 2023-ish.

00:02:37.720 And what I saw was we were beginning with maybe four or five kids per month coming in.

00:02:44.400 And when I left, we were seeing close to 60 new kids per month coming in.

00:02:49.700 Wow.

00:02:50.080 And the kids that were coming had radically changed.

00:02:53.220 So initially this was primarily young boys who were very feminine presenting, whose parents were concerned.

00:02:59.160 And it had radically shifted to teenage girls who were significantly mentally ill, who were all identifying as trans and wanting really rapid medical interventions. 0.87

00:03:14.180 They wanted testosterone. 0.85

00:03:15.540 They were talking about surgeries already.

00:03:19.300 And they were 70 to 80% of the clients now were teenage girls.

00:03:24.520 How old were they typically?

00:03:28.440 Oftentimes they would come to us after puberty.

00:03:32.040 So the bulk of our patients were probably 14 to 16.

00:03:38.520 But the clinic did still see kids all the way as young as three.

00:03:42.700 So, I mean, this was a giant kind of pediatric practice.

00:03:47.940 And when I started in this clinic, I was what we would refer to as a true believer.

00:03:54.240 I really believed that we were intervening early to help children identify their true authentic selves and give them a pathway towards, you know, a healthy, authentic adulthood.

00:04:08.500 I was going to ask why you started working there in 2018.

00:04:12.960 You just said that you were a true believer.

00:04:15.340 But even so, there are a lot of people who believe that who don't feel called to get into the actual work of working at a clinic.

00:04:21.220 So what led you there?

00:04:22.620 So my background is in working in social work roles, but I'm not a social worker.

00:04:28.960 So I've been a caseworker.

00:04:31.340 I currently also now have a master's of science in clinical research.

00:04:35.180 So I've always worked peripherally kind of social service in medical settings.

00:04:41.320 But I was working with young people who are HIV positive.

00:04:44.820 I did that for a long time.

00:04:47.040 And what I was seeing was that there was this kind of growing cohort of young people who were identifying as trans.

00:04:55.440 And there was some overlap in my patient population.

00:04:58.960 But in my personal life, I was married to someone who was trans, who had medically transitioned, a woman who had transitioned to live as a male.

00:05:12.520 And I also am a lesbian.

00:05:15.860 And I grew up in my own childhood experiencing what some people refer to as gender distress.

00:05:23.200 So I was gender nonconforming.

00:05:25.380 I was a tomboy.

00:05:26.680 I really felt as that true believer that this was part of my community and these kids were kids that, you know, somehow reflected my experience.

00:05:39.140 And so you kind of felt like this was not only just a job, but almost a calling that you're giving back to this vulnerable community.

00:05:47.160 Absolutely.

00:05:47.580 And when you first got there, did it feel fulfilling, like it was what you signed up for?

00:05:55.380 When I first got there, I felt like it was very haphazard and chaotic.

00:06:02.340 So initially, I kind of thought, well, this is just that it's so new.

00:06:07.640 The center had really been only open a year.

00:06:10.100 But there were just elements to it that didn't make a ton of sense.

00:06:15.820 And this was in Missouri, right?

00:06:17.000 This was in St. Louis, Missouri, yes.

00:06:19.220 And, you know, one of the things I think we see across the nation is these centers really exploded and have just been popping up in red states and rural areas.

00:06:29.980 Like there's just been an explosion.

00:06:32.340 And so for our hospital to start the center in 2017, there were just crucial elements missing.

00:06:40.860 There were no protocols written.

00:06:42.380 There was no real internal guidelines or mechanisms.

00:06:45.860 This was a center that was started in a really well-known hospital, but was really flying by the seat of its pants and had a lot of structural issues.

00:06:57.840 Yeah.

00:06:58.040 And you said that when you first started, you were only there for five years, so not very long.

00:07:02.660 And yet you were there to see the shift from what you said, young boys.

00:07:06.520 Would you say teenage boys or younger than that?

00:07:08.100 No, younger.

00:07:08.700 Young boys who were kind of feminine to teen girls who really wanted testosterone and even double mastectomies and things like that.

00:07:16.940 But going back to the beginning, I want to talk about the difference in parents of these kids, too.

00:07:23.140 So going back to the beginning, what were parents saying when they were bringing their young boys in?

00:07:28.080 Parents at the beginning were a lot more cautious.

00:07:34.360 There was a lot more seeking guidance.

00:07:40.900 Something in the general population shifted in that period, too.

00:07:45.660 These were children who primarily had not been socially transitioned by their parents at home.

00:07:51.640 And they were slower and they were asked, it was more of an asking the medical establishment, should I socially transition my child?

00:08:01.800 Do you believe that's the right thing to do?

00:08:03.680 Please evaluate my child first.

00:08:06.220 That was more of the parental kind of view.

00:08:09.020 By the time I left, these kids were brought to us having been completely socially transitioned in multiple environments before they ever saw what would be called a gender specialist.

00:08:21.020 These kids had been socially transitioned in school, in their families, in every kind of aspect of their lives.

00:08:27.300 That had already occurred well before they ever saw, often saw, any sort of mental health provider.

00:08:33.480 You said that there was really a lack of protocol when you first started.

00:08:37.300 But what were the typical recommendations for a young boy that was brought in whose parents thought, okay, maybe he's really a girl?

00:08:45.700 I think that the phrase watchful waiting was a little bit more still in existence at the time.

00:08:54.900 A lot of this is also, there isn't a medical element to this.

00:09:00.000 So the original protocol as the Dutch and the Netherlands divides this was that you would start a child on a pubertal blockade when they reach Tanner 2 of puberty.

00:09:10.340 Yeah, and can you explain what that is?

00:09:12.600 Yeah, so they Tanner stage puberty into five stages.

00:09:17.620 It's not necessarily directly correlational to just blood work.

00:09:23.940 An endocrinologist is actually doing a physical exam of the body.

00:09:27.880 So they're looking for early signs of puberty, breast budding, testicular growth.

00:09:32.260 I mean, this is a body process that takes a long time.

00:09:35.760 The pituitary gland, all of these glands in the brain are basically talking to our secondary sex organs and they're telling them, you know, turn on, turn off.

00:09:45.380 There's pauses, there's stops.

00:09:47.540 Puberty is a, puberty in my opinion now is a human right because the body requires these steps.

00:09:55.200 And the brain requires the pruning and the slowness of how puberty engages.

00:10:01.000 But what we were looking for initially was, is the child in Tanner stage 2 of puberty?

00:10:07.520 And if so, then the question is, are we going to initiate a puberty blockade to block them and then eventually give them cross-sex hormones? 0.56

00:10:17.840 And puberty blockers, if it's in a young girl who is in Tanner stage 2, which I think is like when you start seeing the physical outward signs of puberty that you would think like right before a girl starts her period or something like that.

00:10:29.560 It's a little bit earlier than that.

00:10:30.500 Oh, okay.

00:10:30.980 So Tanner 2 is even earlier than right before menstruation.

00:10:34.860 And so right before those things, that's when endocrinologists would say, okay, we got to block the testosterone in boys.

00:10:41.420 We got to block the estrogen in girls. 1.00

00:10:43.680 And how long would that process typically last?

00:10:46.540 The part of this medical establishment that really shows me that it is not a tried and true, well-tested paradigm is that there were even debates over that itself.

00:11:02.960 There were some endocrinologists in gender clinics who would allow kids to be puberty blocked for a very long time.

00:11:09.960 And then there were other endocrinologists that were saying that they would put in an age guideline.

00:11:15.920 So I had an endocrinologist I worked with that would say by a certain age, you had to move on to sex hormones for the body's bone growth and bone development.

00:11:25.840 But again, I've even seen cases now in clinical studies where there are young people who are asking endocrinologists to never be put on sex hormones and asked to remain in a pre-pubital status ongoing.

00:11:41.220 And I've even seen ethical papers argue on the other side that this is their right and they should be able to do this.

00:11:48.920 The damage to the body is just immense.

00:11:52.740 And the brain.

00:11:53.480 I think a lot of people don't realize that puberty is necessary for intellectual maturation, your ability to be able to understand consequences.

00:12:03.240 And there just seems to me, and we can get into this more later, but a nefarious motivation.

00:12:09.740 Like what kind of people would want to prolong basically eternal adolescence and young people and prevent them from being able to make wise choices and to keep their body in a state of like pre-pubescent development?

00:12:25.840 That's very disturbing to me.

00:12:28.060 It is.

00:12:29.020 There's also this element where we've somehow put the children in charge.

00:12:33.440 We're basically saying to the kids, well, what, you know, it's all, what do you want?

00:12:39.320 What do you see?

00:12:40.080 In the center, so much of the decision-making process was the endocrinologists were not making the decisions.

00:12:47.520 They were saying that it was the mental health providers.

00:12:49.660 The mental health providers were not making the decisions.

00:12:52.180 They would basically say if the child says they're trans, then they're trans.

00:12:55.380 And the parents were looking at both of these medical professionals saying, I'm relying on you.

00:12:59.460 And then in the end, we're in a clinical space, and the parents turned into their child and saying, well, if this is what you really want.

00:13:08.120 And so we were in a position where we were basically giving the prescription pad over to children.

00:13:16.380 And why do we even send doctors to medical school then if they're willing to just hand that over and let children make these decisions? 0.99

00:13:25.000 Yeah.

00:13:26.040 And that's such a dereliction of duty because we understand that children do not have the capacity to make these kinds of decisions.

00:13:34.940 And in every other area of children's lives, legally, children are considered incapacitated.

00:13:41.880 They're dependent upon their parents to be able to give consent to a whole variety of things, or there are many things they can't even do at all.

00:13:50.660 They can't contract on their own.

00:13:51.980 And so the idea that we're placing these life-changing decisions on the backs of children is, to me, such a violation of their basic human right to be able to rely upon the judgment and the maturity of their parents to be able to make wise decisions on their behalf.

00:14:10.280 Children don't want these decisions on their shoulders either, though.

00:14:14.360 They might, especially adolescents, might say, well, I, you know, that they will vocalize things like, well, I could decide, I could figure this out.

00:14:25.060 But I think part of why we see such high anxiety and depression levels in children right now is because we are putting on their shoulders some of these considerations that never should have been theirs to worry about.

00:14:38.500 And I think kids actually do better in environments where we as the adults say, hey, we're the adults.

00:14:44.680 We got this.

00:14:46.320 You can be a kid.

00:14:47.940 I'm the one making the decision.

00:14:49.860 And my decision also goes.

00:14:52.260 Yeah, definitely.

00:14:53.760 And that's true in all different realms.

00:14:55.400 Kids want boundaries, and they will push and push until you say, no, it stops here.

00:14:59.920 And when we're talking about mutilating your body, it would seem like in that situation, more than any other situation, there should be some adult that says no.

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00:16:01.040 This changed so quickly from parents who were hearing watch and wait, but I'm sure some who did go through with social transition and puberty blockers,

00:16:08.940 to parents bringing their kids in, fully affirming their newfound identity.

00:16:13.560 So, what changed with what the doctors recommended?

00:16:18.220 Was it still telling these teen girls watch and wait, or was it, yeah, let's sign you up for cross-sex hormones? 0.95

00:16:23.920 The doctors absolutely were, let's sign you up.

00:16:27.920 They really had the way that they worked was, if the child says that they're trans, and if the child says that they want what these drugs give,

00:16:40.300 then why would I stop them from doing this?

00:16:43.640 But the other thing that shifted in this period of time was there has been this huge cultural shift into this belief structure that trans is the new civil rights era,

00:16:56.060 that it is gay 2.0, and that if the parents or the, if our culture didn't just immediately affirm this, that they were, you know, not being the good liberal citizen of our country. 0.85

00:17:15.940 And they're being bigots. 0.90

00:17:18.260 They're the same thing as racists from 50 years ago.

00:17:21.720 They're unsafe if they don't affirm. 0.75

00:17:23.400 And that's where it really went awry.

00:17:26.200 Did you see manipulation of parents?

00:17:29.720 When I've talked to her, I talked to a nurse that encountered a lot of this at a hospital down in Houston,

00:17:35.840 where doctors were actually illegal, because it's illegal in the state of Texas, giving puberty blockers to these kids.

00:17:44.180 And she saw a lot of the kind of emotional manipulation that we see from doctors who would say,

00:17:50.140 you know what, if you don't let your child do this, she or he will commit suicide.

00:17:55.140 Was that kind of thing going on at this clinic?

00:17:57.120 Yes, but it wasn't just the doctors.

00:18:03.520 So there are aspects of what I did, too, that I still work through.

00:18:12.620 So, yes, I absolutely saw clinicians say to parents in front of their children,

00:18:17.780 if you don't agree to this, then your child is going to be at risk of committing suicide.

00:18:23.960 I saw doctors say things like, would you rather have a dead daughter or a live son?

00:18:31.300 But I was absolutely complicit in that for a number of years as well.

00:18:39.660 I really believed that was the truth.

00:18:46.540 And it took, you know, I wish I could say I just woke up one day and was like,

00:18:54.300 duh, we can't sex change kids. 1.00

00:18:58.160 It didn't work like that.

00:19:00.020 It took me a long time to see the harms, see that the kids weren't getting better,

00:19:07.760 see that the kids were actually falling apart after we put them on these treatments,

00:19:12.760 see, you know, a couple years of these kids and see that they just were not doing well.

00:19:19.000 Um, it just, it took me a long time to get to the position where I knew what I was doing was wrong.

00:19:26.940 Yeah.

00:19:27.240 Talk about that shift when you started to wake up.

00:19:30.220 What were some of the things that caused your eyes to open?

00:19:35.280 In medicine, you know, in, in, even in data, I look for patterns, consistencies.

00:19:42.700 I'm looking for outcomes.

00:19:45.660 And so I had this really unique position in the center because I completed the intake for every

00:19:53.240 single kid that came in and I tracked every single kid as they went through.

00:19:57.580 So I kind of had this bird's eye view.

00:20:00.480 Whereas I think sometimes the doctors would see a kid in front of them and go, well, they're doing

00:20:04.920 great.

00:20:05.360 And then they wouldn't see on the backend that that kid disappeared three months later.

00:20:10.600 And then I sometimes would see they disappeared, they de-cysted, they de-transitioned or that

00:20:16.620 their mental health was deteriorating.

00:20:20.280 But really we were, we were harming these children.

00:20:27.020 I mean, we started to see true medical harms.

00:20:31.980 We had a patient who we had put on testosterone at a young age. 0.99

00:20:37.040 She had an, you know, one of her first sexual experiences and her, her vagina completely tore 1.00

00:20:47.360 open and she ended up bleeding so profusely that we had to send her directly to the emergency 0.99

00:20:53.380 room where they sent her directly into emergency surgery. 1.00

00:20:57.040 And that is because the testosterone had deteriorated her genitalia. 1.00

00:21:01.640 Correct.

00:21:02.240 It had degraded the tissues so much.

00:21:05.020 How old was she? 0.89

00:21:05.780 I believe she was still maybe 17 when that happened, but we would have put her on testosterone 0.97

00:21:11.640 at 13 or 14.

00:21:13.700 Wow.

00:21:14.600 And when I said to the doctors, there's this phrase, an adverse outcome.

00:21:22.900 I said, this is an adverse outcome.

00:21:25.040 And their response was, it's really not.

00:21:28.020 We expected things like this to happen.

00:21:30.180 Wow.

00:21:30.480 Like they knew these treatments were so harmful that they didn't even see it as outside of

00:21:35.240 what the expectation was.

00:21:37.340 That, that was not what I signed up for. 0.99

00:21:39.280 So what would they have considered an adverse outcome if not a 17 year old's vagina completely 1.00

00:21:45.500 deteriorating because of testosterone? 0.94

00:21:47.340 That's a really good question that I wish I could answer.

00:21:51.080 But I actually attempted within the university to report that situation and as an adverse outcome.

00:21:56.720 I was told not to.

00:21:58.300 Wow.

00:21:59.140 And so that is one instance at least that shocked your conscience.

00:22:03.120 Yes.

00:22:04.440 We had a, we also had a young woman who had a double mastectomy.

00:22:10.340 Within three months, she was calling the surgeon's office saying first that her pronouns had shifted,

00:22:16.020 that she was she again, but also she was begging to have her breasts put back on. 1.00

00:22:22.520 Gosh, that just breaks my heart.

00:22:23.980 And the, the surgeon wouldn't take her phone call.

00:22:30.160 The surgeon didn't have the, couldn't even call her back and address what they had done to her. 0.95

00:22:39.480 They punted it off to me and our nurse, you call her back. 1.00

00:22:45.020 They were trying to say, you see if this is true.

00:22:48.480 And then the other thing that was so gut-wrenching is that they were willing to cut her breasts off quickly with a letter.

00:22:59.420 They were not willing to even do a consultation about reconstruction until she had a full psyche valve and waited an entire year. 0.95

00:23:07.140 But tell me how that, right.

00:23:09.580 That is not what was required to get her breasts cut off. 1.00

00:23:12.540 What is, what was required from what you saw to get a surgery like that?

00:23:18.480 So first of all, I do want to point out that the clinicians that I work with did lie to my state's legislature and say that we were not discussing surgeries with minors.

00:23:29.000 We absolutely were.

00:23:30.260 We were giving minors the, the numbers and names of surgeons who would do this as minors.

00:23:36.800 I saw those clinicians say this bold face lie to the Republican legislature.

00:23:42.320 And I, if you have to lie about what you are doing, you are not doing the right thing.

00:23:51.140 Right.

00:23:52.540 But really all these kids would need was at least one legal guardian to consent and a letter from a therapist.

00:24:01.480 And the problem was, was these therapists are all completely captured.

00:24:05.600 And we also would only send you to a therapist who would write you a letter.

00:24:09.360 Right.

00:24:10.840 I mean, it's a self-fulfilling loop and it's all, I mean, this is one of the most corrupt systems I've ever seen within medicine.

00:24:17.720 And these letters were standard templates that actually, didn't you help write some of them?

00:24:23.100 Yes, that I helped write.

00:24:24.000 That we would send them a fill in the blank.

00:24:26.200 Here, here's the fill in the blank template.

00:24:27.640 Yeah.

00:24:28.360 And they really had, these psychologists had no incentive to stop one of these young people.

00:24:35.040 I mean, you're talking about kind of being scared of children.

00:24:39.560 I've talked to detransitioners who, when they did have a therapist that was bold enough to say something, 1.00

00:24:45.960 like one detransitioner I talked to, she said that her therapist, when she was trying to get a sign off for, you know,

00:24:52.400 the hormones and the surgery and all that, she had a therapist, had the audacity to say,

00:24:56.640 you know, it sounds like you actually are mad at your mom and that's part of what's going on.

00:25:01.220 And she was living, you know, she, she expressed anger and the therapist said, okay, okay, signed off.

00:25:08.200 And so I think that's what's happening in some cases.

00:25:11.500 I think also that they're scared of the political pressure, which is 100% not an excuse at all.

00:25:18.380 It's very cowardly, but that's a lot of sadly what's going on.

00:25:22.020 It's really not about, from my perspective, benefiting these young people at all.

00:25:26.640 Not at all.

00:25:27.940 And, you know, the longer I was there, I think I had a three-step process.

00:25:33.240 Step one was I would never bring my children anywhere near this place.

00:25:37.020 That does not feel good when you work in a, in a medical center.

00:25:40.260 You want, you know, as a parent, but it was never, I would never bring my kids here.

00:25:44.720 Then there was this period when I thought to myself, there's no need to do this to girls.

00:25:49.080 The girls, if they need to transition as adults, they can do so.

00:25:55.860 They will pass as male. 0.98

00:25:57.120 There's absolutely no reason why we're doing this to children.

00:25:59.400 It was the boys that really, I took the longest to really understand how wrong this is.

00:26:10.920 This whole concept really came out of this idea that, you know, trans adults who wanted to pass as women didn't pass.

00:26:22.520 And they, they did not, you know, as society, they didn't pass and they felt uncomfortable.

00:26:28.160 And so, you know, we started doing this to kids and I kept holding on to this little piece of like, yeah, but these, you know, like maybe the boys, maybe this is still right for the boys.

00:26:40.180 And it was seeing the boys that we had actually puberty blocked and then put on cross-sex hormones.

00:26:46.780 I was there long enough to see what should have been the trajectory into them doing well.

00:26:52.500 Like from 10 to 15.

00:26:54.560 Right, right.

00:26:55.160 And they just weren't.

00:26:55.940 They might superficially look female. 0.99

00:27:01.540 They would come in and, and in the grossest way, my endocrinologist would sometimes come out of the room and say things like, I made these beautiful breasts, like he was playing God.

00:27:13.580 But when I was working with these young people from that social, psychological functioning part, they were not even getting a GED.

00:27:23.720 They were not getting a driver's license.

00:27:25.420 They were not this like functional human being that we, we want adolescents to become.

00:27:31.640 And part of what I started to recognize was we had lied to them as children.

00:27:38.600 And we were asking them to sit with this lie about who they were.

00:27:47.000 And part of adolescence, part of the requirement of becoming an adult is this real integration of who am I?

00:27:55.600 That's what we ask people to do when they become an adult.

00:27:57.760 Who are you?

00:27:58.700 You're separate from your family.

00:28:00.200 You're separate from your parents.

00:28:01.240 You're this, you're this, you're this, this whole being, but you're an adult now.

00:28:05.800 And when we set up these kids with a lie, they could not progress through that because they fundamentally were presenting to the world and they could not reconcile this lie internally.

00:28:20.540 And so they were fundamentally unable to really take those steps into adulthood.

00:28:26.880 And that was what I saw when I let everything else and I was just holding on to maybe this is right for these boys.

00:28:33.740 It was that damage that I saw in these boys, that they always would have to sit with this lie.

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00:29:56.440 Do you think that the effect of the puberty blockers on their brain and the kind of inhibition of maturation that happens through natural puberty—I mean, you are talking about basically a failure to launch in some cases.

00:30:14.700 They weren't independent, they weren't happy, they weren't getting their driver's license.

00:30:18.480 Do you think that had to do with it?

00:30:20.360 Yes.

00:30:20.560 And what's so interesting is that this field pretended like this has been around forever and we know all the science.

00:30:26.620 It's only after I leave that I start to also see papers coming out where they did not do enough of the actual—they didn't do the follow-up studies in the original protocol.

00:30:38.760 And now what it looks like is we do see that IQ is affected.

00:30:43.460 There's parts of the brain that pruning happens when you're in adolescence where, you know, the superfluous neuropathways are pruned down and then there's really, you know, strengthening of the neuropathways that we need.

00:30:56.300 And it does seem like, too, those things have to kind of hit in a sequential order for the brain to reach that full development.

00:31:06.260 And so we do have this whole cohort of children in this country and globally that we performed an unauthorized medical experiment on.

00:31:18.080 And I don't even think we've begun to grapple with what are the long-term effects of those experiments and will these children and their families ever actually receive justice?

00:31:29.720 And it's something important to mention because I've heard your story many times and I know it so well.

00:31:36.480 Did these boys or did these kids actually improve in their mental health?

00:31:41.700 That's right, because the whole justification for doing these radical alterations in their bodies is that, well, it's going to keep them from committing suicide.

00:31:51.340 It's going to help their mental health.

00:31:53.660 Now, in practice, though, did you see that or not?

00:31:59.840 No.

00:32:00.500 And so this is part of also where I'm kind of an outlier, but I'm really interested in data.

00:32:06.960 I'm more of a data scientist.

00:32:08.440 My master's in science was clinical.

00:32:12.200 And so I just started looking at our data.

00:32:14.640 These kids should have had better scores, better scores on anxiety, depression.

00:32:20.140 Their suicidal ideation should be decreasing.

00:32:22.740 And here's the thing.

00:32:24.200 What the other side is going to say is that, oh, society just, they're still being, you know, society's still-

00:32:29.480 Stigma, bullying.

00:32:30.660 Stigma, bullying.

00:32:31.260 This is not the case.

00:32:32.460 These were fully affirming environments.

00:32:34.520 These are parents who fully embraced this.

00:32:37.000 They were in school systems where they were kind of held up on a pedestal.

00:32:41.600 Like, this was, this is not a bullying, so, no.

00:32:45.200 And these kids were not getting better.

00:32:48.380 And we see that even in places like Sweden who have been affirming this thing for a long time.

00:32:53.240 The study, the landmark study from a few years ago that showed that men who transition into women actually had no fewer thoughts of suicidal ideation and actually committed suicide at the same rate of those who identified as transgender before their transition.

00:33:10.840 And so, I don't even think that we have solid evidence that proves that this is improving outcomes.

00:33:17.700 You talked about how the young girls who came in, they had lots of other mental health problems.

00:33:23.660 Can you talk about that?

00:33:25.100 What were typically the mental health problems that you saw?

00:33:27.600 Oh, there was the typical and then what I think social media has caused.

00:33:33.500 Typical was, you know, anxiety, depression, self-harming behaviors, eating disorders.

00:33:39.600 I mean, this is, in some ways, this is kind of, you know, a new version of what we saw as anorexia.

00:33:45.840 And, you know, like, there are swings and kind of mental health trends that go.

00:33:52.280 I mean, I think trans is one of those.

00:33:54.700 But the thing that was really hard to see was that these were the kids in the lockdowns.

00:34:05.140 These were the kids who had all of the negative effects of what we did to them because of COVID.

00:34:11.300 I mean, we kept the bars open, but we closed the schools.

00:34:14.060 I mean, but these kids were starting to develop things that were socially mediated contagions.

00:34:24.400 So TikTok tics, kids who believe that they have Tourette's syndrome, but it's the exact same Tourette's as you see in TikTok videos.

00:34:35.560 Yeah, on social media.

00:34:36.780 Kids who believe that they had multiple personality disorders.

00:34:40.260 Kids who, I mean, we had two patients who believed that their vision was affected.

00:34:46.060 One who believed that they were actually blind.

00:34:48.640 But they weren't.

00:34:49.280 They were not.

00:34:49.900 And we sent them to have all of the tests run to see what was a biological cause.

00:34:57.200 There was none.

00:34:58.380 I mean, this was a socially mediated belief that they were, that they believed that they were blind.

00:35:04.660 And we also saw children who believed that they had these real serious, I mean, socially mediated contagion illnesses are some of the hardest to treat.

00:35:16.820 You have to get first at the concept that they will even recognize that they might have something that's not biologically driven.

00:35:25.460 Yeah.

00:35:25.920 It's like Munchausen.

00:35:26.820 Yes, but internalized more.

00:35:29.880 And then the issue that I was butting up against also from like a social science perspective is the clinicians could see that these kids had all of these other socially mediated illnesses.

00:35:41.800 And when I said trans is one of those, they were like, oh, but no, trans is the authentic, true self.

00:35:52.780 And I'm like, really, because this child hits every single other marker and their parent says that they had no gender distress in childhood, no gender distress even six months ago.

00:36:03.580 But now they're trans. 0.89

00:36:05.360 And the doctors didn't care.

00:36:06.820 Was there any doctor that you talked to, any endocrinologist, any therapist that you discuss this with who was like, yeah, you might be right?

00:36:14.560 There was a nurse that I worked with that we were really close, and we shared a lot of the same concerns.

00:36:22.320 Our child psychiatrist would sometimes share those same concerns.

00:36:27.240 What I learned after I left the center was that there was an endocrinologist who had a position of authority within this division.

00:36:35.460 And when they went to try to open the center, the endocrinologist was saying, I don't think the science is here.

00:36:41.460 I don't think we should do this.

00:36:42.680 And that person was actually pushed out of their leadership position.

00:36:46.000 And the center was opened against that person's real, true, better judgment and scientific evidence.

00:36:53.760 And yes, I think that we have just been in a culture of so much fear that as soon as my story broke, there were so many doctors within even the system that I worked in emailing me saying, thank God you said this.

00:37:09.520 I've been thinking this.

00:37:11.000 And what's difficult for me, though, is that I was not in the same position of authority that these clinicians had, and they couldn't take the step.

00:37:25.660 I think that if there were more of them, if more people were brave enough to step up, it wouldn't fall on just a small number of our shoulders.

00:37:33.460 But I think what we're talking about is ideological capture of a portion of the medical community.

00:37:41.000 Which is a very dangerous place to be.

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00:38:47.300 Tell me about Blowing the Whistle.

00:38:53.260 How did you decide to come out with your story?

00:38:56.900 I lost a lot.

00:38:58.880 So I eventually was kind of pushed out where they were basically saying, you can't continue to raise ethical concerns.

00:39:07.140 You need to get on board or get quiet, shut up, move on.

00:39:09.720 And I was in a very privileged job.

00:39:14.320 My children would have had an amazing college tuition benefit. 0.54

00:39:17.920 I had excellent insurance.

00:39:19.180 I had a good salary.

00:39:21.240 But I couldn't continue to work in that center.

00:39:23.360 So I found a different position within the university.

00:39:26.040 And I honestly tried for a minute to just let it go.

00:39:29.800 Just forget about it.

00:39:31.000 Out of sight, out of mind.

00:39:32.420 Can I just let this go?

00:39:33.600 And I just found any time that I was quiet sitting with my own thoughts, it just nagged at me.

00:39:42.020 Like I couldn't.

00:39:43.120 I would picture these kids.

00:39:44.860 I would picture the parents who just fought for their kids.

00:39:48.800 And I was just like, I just cannot leave all of this behind.

00:39:53.540 And it took a long time to figure out how to do this.

00:39:57.720 But I eventually reached out to a medical advocacy group who then put me in touch with Bernadette.

00:40:09.160 And once I had counsel, I really had a team built around me to give me the legal advice, the counsel, but also just the support.

00:40:23.060 I think so much of this is we have to just, if you can have one person with you to walk with you.

00:40:33.000 Makes a difference.

00:40:34.320 Courage is contagious.

00:40:35.920 It absolutely is.

00:40:37.100 Yeah.

00:40:37.360 We talk about sharing the arrows.

00:40:40.080 And that's when you see someone being unfairly maligned or bullied or reaping consequences for standing up for what is right or standing up for something that you believe in too,

00:40:49.860 rather than us cowering in the corner and saying, wow, I'm glad that's not me.

00:40:53.560 Now I'm not going to speak up because I don't want that to happen to me.

00:40:56.220 We say, no, whatever arrows you're throwing at them, you can throw at me too.

00:41:00.920 And when we all do that, that makes a big difference.

00:41:04.000 But it does take one.

00:41:05.520 And you were the one in this scenario that said, you know what?

00:41:08.580 I've got to speak up about it.

00:41:10.240 So tell me what the reaction has been like.

00:41:12.020 It's, in some ways, it's been one of the greatest blessings of my life.

00:41:21.960 I was so afraid the night before that story broke that I would end up on the other side of that completely alone.

00:41:30.720 And it's the exact opposite.

00:41:33.240 And it's, I also felt like I was going up against what many people would say is my community.

00:41:40.340 I mean, I, you know, the gay and lesbian community, I thought that I was just going to be a pariah and completely ostracized.

00:41:48.540 And what immediately started happening was email after email after email of all of these people who had been fighting this fight for years already.

00:41:56.500 I didn't even know so many of them existed.

00:41:58.840 But, I mean, I had one person reach out to me, send an email, and she said, just so you know, you're my new best friend.

00:42:04.240 And I've, and she shared with me her writing and her work.

00:42:08.760 And this was a liberal, you know, lefty woman who, she just was like, we're out here. 0.51

00:42:15.660 We've been fighting this, and we are ready to embrace you.

00:42:19.360 And that's really all that's happened is I've just been supported in so many ways from so many different angles, though, too.

00:42:27.800 I can truly say now I have friends in every single partisan, I mean, from like weird libertarians, and I don't entirely know what they're talking about all the time, to, you know, some of these really high-placed Republicans, to normal Democrats, to, you know, all across the board.

00:42:50.120 But this issue is so damaging, and it has caused so much harm, but it also has this ability to break apart some of these divisions in our country in such a powerful way.

00:43:07.540 I mean, it has brought together, I mean, that's the blessing, Allie.

00:43:11.140 It's that it has brought together people who would otherwise never be aligned with each other at all.

00:43:19.080 Far left, far right, just laying aside all of that, and it's becoming a rallying cry.

00:43:26.200 That and parental rights, but, and so, and they're rallying around, around Jamie.

00:43:31.740 Yeah.

00:43:32.380 You know, and that, and the courage that they're seeing.

00:43:34.380 Yes, and Jamie, tell me a little bit about your spouse, because you mentioned that she was transgender.

00:43:42.080 Were you sharing with her at the time all of the stuff that you were concerned about, especially about the young women, and how did that go?

00:43:50.740 So I'll say this about my spouse.

00:43:54.880 Roxy never was as on board with transitioning kids as I was.

00:44:00.640 So there are definitely a lot of individuals who have medically transitioned as adults who absolutely were never in support of doing this to kids.

00:44:11.360 She never believed that this was a good idea, in part because she had transitioned herself as an adult and just recognized how challenging it was and how many, you know, individual decisions had to be made.

00:44:25.500 So initially was never on board with this for kids, but then when the, when I blew the whistle, it really, I think, caused this real rift in our marriage because it really put in front of her pathway this reckoning point that she was not ready to do.

00:44:48.860 And it took a very long time for her, and so one of the things that has been challenging for that relationship was that, in some ways, I really did have to step out alone to blow the whistle.

00:45:03.000 She could not walk there.

00:45:04.280 Because at this point, did you kind of feel like, not just children, but the entire concept of transitioning was harmful and maybe based on a lie?

00:45:14.860 So I absolutely recognized that I felt my own spouse had transitioned as a response to trauma.

00:45:22.080 And I absolutely felt that I could see, especially within the lesbian community, that so many gender nonconforming lesbian women were medically transitioning in response to trauma and response to our society really just not accepting their gender nonconformity as masculine women.

00:45:41.020 And so to me, I think that kind of gets back to this concept of true trans and no. 0.87

00:45:47.800 So I recognized, you know, that true trans is really kind of a misnomer because what it ignores is that there's so many pathways into this for people.

00:45:59.820 Trauma, vulnerability, autism, gender nonconformity in childhood, just being a gay or lesbian adult. 0.92

00:46:07.520 Like there's so many pathways in that I think it's a misnomer to talk or pretend like there's really this true authentic self that is trans.

00:46:14.980 I hold a position really now that's kind of challenging to nuance, but there are so many adults who have already done this that we still have to provide them compassion, love, and care, and acceptance.

00:46:33.800 And while we start to have the questions about what does the, I'm all about evidence, what does the evidence show us?

00:46:40.820 The evidence shows us this is not the right pathway for children, period, end of story.

00:46:45.120 We don't need any more studies.

00:46:46.760 This is not the right thing to do for kids.

00:46:49.040 And has your spouse detransitioned?

00:46:51.580 Yes.

00:46:52.380 She has completely ceased testosterone and is starting to think about ways to kind of reintegrate, you know, that biological sex that was always there as an outward presentation.

00:47:07.900 Wow.

00:47:08.180 I bet that's been quite the journey too.

00:47:09.980 She has been doing this with such grace and also the way that I would hope anybody who goes to do this does this, which is support, mental health treatment, getting a therapist, going slow, and just taking the time to try to reintegrate in a way that works.

00:47:31.960 You don't have to know all of the, you don't have to have all the answers to say, this is my actual biological sex.

00:47:39.180 And how is that going to look?

00:47:40.840 You don't have to know that to just embrace, this is my real biological sex.

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00:48:48.120 Bernadette, you've seen this from the legal side.

00:48:50.740 You don't only know Jamie's story and everything that she encountered, but you know the stories of a lot of people who have been affected by this industry, by this process.

00:48:59.900 Can you talk just a little bit about that?

00:49:02.800 What are you seeing in your practice?

00:49:06.040 Yeah.

00:49:06.240 So I'm seeing both the things that are happening, particularly in schools, that are, in a sense, feeding the monster.

00:49:13.020 What Jamie described is what I call it as a monster, and it has many tentacles that are going into virtually every portion of our society is going into our government.

00:49:22.980 We had a federal government that was pushing this, and that's when it exploded as a misdirection of their distortion of Title IX.

00:49:33.480 And media, just really every portion of our society, but the one that is most toxic towards children and most harmful has been the school and the academic.

00:49:44.460 And so we talk about, in our practice, we talk about the school-to-clinic pipeline that they've set up.

00:49:50.580 So what we've seen, and we have many parents we work with, and we have lawsuits over, are children that are secretly transitioned. 1.00

00:49:57.520 So one of them, I'm thinking of the Paris family.

00:50:00.160 So their little girl, she was 12, this is a Catholic-Christian family, had never had any gender dysphoria, and really didn't have any mental health problems to speak of, just a normal kid.

00:50:14.540 But she was bullied a bit at school, and she thought, you know, boys are stronger, so I just want to be a boy.

00:50:22.180 That alone then catalyzed this process where privately the school counselor started to meet with her.

00:50:27.800 Her parents had no idea to promote and endorse this idea that, well, maybe I should be a boy, and maybe I am a boy.

00:50:37.680 A public school, or did you say Catholic school?

00:50:39.640 A public school.

00:50:40.700 And, Alibeth, this is in Florida.

00:50:43.400 Yeah.

00:50:44.160 While Ron DeSantis was governor.

00:50:46.500 Right.

00:50:47.020 Right?

00:50:48.080 A few years ago, before they passed some of their laws they passed.

00:50:51.200 This helped pass some of these laws.

00:50:52.520 But, so she's meeting with this counselor privately, and it creates a double life.

00:50:58.640 And the double life became so untenable for her.

00:51:03.020 Of course.

00:51:03.860 Unbearable. 0.99

00:51:04.680 That she just decides, it'd just be better if I end my life.

00:51:07.520 And she attempted to do what I started at school.

00:51:09.460 I mean, like, really, truly did.

00:51:10.720 And so the parents, they're called, they have no idea, they're called to the principal's office to learn for the first time.

00:51:19.300 As their child is being taken to the hospital in the back of a police vehicle, what is going on?

00:51:26.440 Well, they learn.

00:51:27.300 She'd been trans-identifying and been meeting with the, they learn everything for the very first time.

00:51:33.840 Wow.

00:51:33.980 Thankfully, she has desisted, and now she, frankly, wants to be a warrior to, you know, to fight this.

00:51:42.600 Wow.

00:51:43.240 We have a lawsuit for that.

00:51:44.820 Our most tragic story, and there's, we could sit here for two hours.

00:51:49.700 Yeah.

00:51:50.020 Right?

00:51:50.540 Unfortunately.

00:51:51.660 Yeah.

00:51:52.600 Unfortunately.

00:51:53.460 But our most tragic is Sage.

00:51:55.540 Now, I'll say her name because there's now a law in her honor that they're trying to pass in Virginia.

00:52:00.260 She had had trauma as a child, talking about the trauma pathway.

00:52:06.760 And so when she hit puberty, see, there's just a lot of things that line up, begins to trans-identify.

00:52:15.000 That causes her to become sexually harassed at school because they're telling her, and she's tiny, she's five or tall, to use the boy's bathroom.

00:52:25.720 None of this is told to the parents.

00:52:27.380 So, Sage, she runs away because she doesn't feel safe. 0.98

00:52:32.140 And when she runs away, she runs into the arms of an adult pedophile who raped her and trafficked her to other men and took her across state lines. 0.65

00:52:43.500 And when she's found in Maryland, the woke judge doesn't want to give her back, the system there in Baltimore, because they discover that her parents might not be affirming of her male identity. 0.85

00:52:59.980 This is a traumatized child.

00:53:02.920 Her mom wasn't able to be there when they do a rape kit on her. 1.00

00:53:06.420 And so they put her in a facility for troubled boys because she's identifying as a male.

00:53:16.200 Allie, what do you think happens to her in this facility?

00:53:19.200 Of course.

00:53:20.080 What everyone knows, what all of your audience knows immediately.

00:53:23.720 So she runs away because she's being sexually assaulted there again, and she's trafficked further, and they find her in Texas.

00:53:31.100 And thankfully, Texas has the common sense to return her to her parents. 0.94

00:53:35.980 We have a lawsuit now in Virginia.

00:53:38.400 It's pending before the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals.

00:53:41.060 But there are so many of these stories.

00:53:43.060 Yes.

00:53:43.420 And that's the kids see, so then, what is it that's feeding the clinic that Jamie worked at?

00:53:50.640 Well, are these school officials that are endorsing this lie to susceptible children who are in the process of development who believe trusted adults?

00:54:02.180 When the trusted adult says, maybe your problem is that you were born in the wrong body.

00:54:07.400 And you know what?

00:54:08.420 We don't have to tell your parents because you and I know better.

00:54:11.880 And so by the time that the parents find out, there's so much indoctrination, and these kids are demanding to go to Jamie's former clinic.

00:54:21.980 And the parents are then in an untenable situation, and they're coerced, many.

00:54:30.040 So that's one side of the stories that are behind the scenes of this clinic, of clinics like this and all around the country.

00:54:39.640 Well, are we going to tear this down?

00:54:42.320 Is it crumbling?

00:54:44.120 What do you think?

00:54:46.940 So within my own state, a story broke, and within a year, the center was completely closed.

00:54:55.720 Wow.

00:54:56.620 Praise God.

00:54:57.180 Which was actually, it was my goal.

00:55:03.900 It was what, the night before that story came out, I said, you know, we just have to get this place has to be shut down.

00:55:10.760 Yeah.

00:55:11.900 But our country is really fractured.

00:55:14.920 Yeah.

00:55:15.200 So we have 24, 25 states that are trying to protect kids, and we have 24, 25 states that are not.

00:55:22.760 And so what my coalition is working to do every day is to try to make sure those other states start to protect these kids.

00:55:33.540 And we also have to pull this out of this kind of, you know, cultural mess of a conversation that we've got going on and really bring this back to real simple basics.

00:55:43.460 Children have the right to grow up with their fertility, their sexual function, and their endocrine systems intact, whole, and functional.

00:55:55.540 It is their basic human right.

00:55:57.880 We have been perpetuating a human rights abuse against children in this country.

00:56:01.900 That is a nonpartisan issue.

00:56:04.000 This is not a red or blue.

00:56:05.580 It is purely a human rights issue that has to stop.

00:56:09.340 Yeah.

00:56:09.580 And parents have the right to know what is going on with their child.

00:56:14.660 Laws, even in conservative states, and well, you would be able to tell me, but from my understanding, counselors really don't have to tell parents.

00:56:23.960 They are legally obligated to keep some of these conversations confidential between them and this child.

00:56:32.080 And that needs to change.

00:56:34.040 Parents need to have the rights to this kind of information about their kids, right?

00:56:38.380 Well, it depends on the state.

00:56:40.140 So in most states, actually, parents, they do have the right to know what's going on, even in counseling sessions, unless they have consented to not knowing.

00:56:51.680 Okay.

00:56:52.280 And it really is, it is different from state to state.

00:56:55.420 So the first thing I tell the parents, and then there are some states like California and Oregon and Washington and really the deep blue states in which, unfortunately, now kids have the right as early as 12 or 13 to be able to consent to mental health treatment without their parents being involved at all.

00:57:12.900 And these kids are in a world of hurt.

00:57:14.960 These parents are in a world of hurt.

00:57:16.120 But the, so we say to parents all the time, do not relinquish your parental rights at any stage.

00:57:24.040 Demand them.

00:57:25.540 Because the last, you know, story I'll share, and we talk about how to tear this monster down, is Child Protective Services being weaponized.

00:57:34.340 Yeah.

00:57:35.160 We're seeing this around the country.

00:57:36.880 And we have right now a case in California.

00:57:38.880 I have one already in Arizona, but a case in California where a family, an immigrant family, has lost custody of their child because she is gender dysphoric, she's gender confused, and these parents believe in biological reality.

00:57:53.960 Yeah.

00:57:54.080 And so we're fighting that right now.

00:57:55.760 So the thing I want, Jamie and I talked about, we're hoping that your audience realizes that, number one, don't expect because you're maybe a conservative family or a Christian family that your child is safe, is immune from this.

00:58:11.320 These are conservative parents.

00:58:14.220 They're Christian parents.

00:58:15.060 In fact, many of our clients are.

00:58:16.560 And even if your child is not even in public school, Child Protective Services can go anywhere.

00:58:23.140 Right.

00:58:23.800 Yep.

00:58:24.500 And they can be called at any time.

00:58:26.460 And we're seeing a huge update.

00:58:28.720 Last week in three days, we had three families contact our office for help with Child Protective Services.

00:58:35.180 Yes.

00:58:35.520 So we have, so the most important thing is that by the time a family gets to me, okay, to either Jamie, the former Jamie, or to me as a lawyer, they're in a world of hurt.

00:58:48.140 Yes.

00:58:48.460 Right.

00:58:48.580 They're in a nightmare.

00:58:49.960 Yeah.

00:58:50.200 So we're wanting to talk about, and we'll share a little bit about resources and recruiting the faith community, the church, to get to a place to, as you said, inoculate our children and our families before we get there.

00:59:08.620 Yeah.

00:59:09.040 Well, we will absolutely share those resources.

00:59:12.160 We'll make sure to link them in the description of this episode.

00:59:14.740 My producer is telling me that we do have to wrap, although I could talk to you guys for hours, and I just want to say I'm so thankful for your courage.

00:59:22.720 You didn't have to.

00:59:23.740 You could have moved on, moved to a different job, make sure that your kids still get tuition help to a university, and you chose to sacrifice on behalf of people who may never thank you or know how you positively impacted their life.

00:59:38.300 And, of course, you too, I mean, just legally on the front lines, I mean, this fight just wouldn't exist without lawyers who are willing to take up this cause many times at personal cost.

00:59:48.420 And so I just want to thank y'all so much.

00:59:51.060 Courage begets courage, and you just never know who's going to watch her listen to this and take up the cause of courage because of what y'all are doing.

00:59:57.060 So thank you, and I am praying and doing whatever small thing I can from this microphone to just link arms with you guys and to try to end this, and I think that we can.

01:00:09.840 So thank you.

01:00:10.940 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 04, 2024

Ep 1109 ｜ Whistleblower Shares The Gruesome Truth About Trans 'Care' ｜ Guests： Jamie Reed & Vernadette Broyles

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