Ep 1121 ｜ Jinger Duggar Vuolo on Escaping People-Pleasing & Setting Biblical Boundaries
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Summary
Ginger Duggar Vuolo grew up under legalism and because of that, she became a serial people pleaser. But now she s out with an amazing new book called Breaking Free from the Burden of Imaginary Expectations, and today she is going to talk about how she has dealt with this obsession with perfection, with what other people think about her, and how she s allowed biblical truth, the true gospel, to help her break free from that.
Transcript
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Ginger Duggar Vuolo grew up under legalism, and because of that, she became a serial people-pleaser.
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But now she's out with an amazing new book called People-Pleaser, Breaking Free from
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And today she is going to talk about how she has dealt with this obsession with perfection,
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with what other people think about her, and how she has allowed biblical truth, the true
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gospel, to help her break free from that, and how we can do the same.
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It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Ginger, thanks so much for coming back on the show.
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I'm past the nausea now, and I'm kind of at that happy spot where I don't feel super huge.
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But I'm able to have more energy and be able to get up and do projects around the house,
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all the things that you need to get done before the baby comes.
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She's just super excited because she's at the stage where she's just talking about helping
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So we're really, really looking forward to having another one.
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Do you feel like writing a book is kind of like having a baby?
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So I'm very impressed that you have a new book out while you are a mom of now three and
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Like, I think you've been through the process multiple times as well.
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Like, there's a certain sense of when you're writing it, then the editing process, and
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then when it comes out, then it's like promoting the book.
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All of that stuff does take a lot of time and it does feel like you have just given birth
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It's not painful in that sense, but there is so much effort and it's a lot of vulnerability
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that you're putting out into the world, especially you, because you're sharing your story.
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So you came on the show to talk about your last book, just your story of breaking free
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And now you've got this book about people pleasing.
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Why did you write this book following your last one?
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I think that once I wrote my last book and that process of writing it, it was very tough.
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There were a lot of things I had to work through.
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And I knew for so many years that I felt like I was a people pleaser.
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I would see how I was so consumed with what other people thought about me and about keeping
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I wanted to make everyone happy, whether that was family and friends or even whenever I went
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to write Becoming Free Indeed, it was talking about exposing the harmful teachings I grew
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And that was something for me that was very difficult because it took me a lot of years
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to get to that place where I felt like I could actually open up and speak on that topic.
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And as I was talking to Jeremy, we were praying about the timing, praying about when to speak
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That really made me realize, because for so many years, I was so crippled by what other people
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And it wasn't until it came to the point where there were so many things publicly that were
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And I realized I was like, at the end of the day, I have to do what's right before God,
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not before what my friends or my family may think I'm supposed to do.
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And I think at that time, I started seeing even more how I wanted to break free from these
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people pleasing tendencies that were so ingrained in me.
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I think some people may have it too, like they may have a deeper sense of that.
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Maybe they're more black and white and bold and like, I don't care what you think.
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But for me, it was more of a wrestling that I noticed.
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And so definitely writing that book helped me to begin to like break free even more from
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Here's what you say in the introduction, and I think it's really poignant and powerful.
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From the downfall of Bill Gothard to the horrible revelations about one of my siblings, here's
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Tell me about that revelation, that declaration of not living a lie.
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Yeah, I think that it's so easy, especially if you grew up in a setting where it was performance
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Like my parents would encourage us to be authentic, to be ourselves.
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But at the same time, the system that we grew up under, the teachings of Bill Gothard, were
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very geared towards you performing, you doing well in this setting and letting other people
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see that you were a light to the nations, that you were shining for everyone to see that.
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But a lot of it was based on what you could do to get there.
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And I think that with all of that in mind, that opening section there, I think once I realized,
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okay, there was stuff going down, like you said, with my brother very publicly.
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And the glory of God was, I don't want to say like at stake, because God's glory is going
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But there were a lot of people who were saying a lot of things.
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And I felt like, okay, they were equating Christianity to the teachings of Bill Gothard
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And I was like, okay, at some point, I'm either going to have to be quiet, or I'm going to
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have to speak up and stop acting like this is all right, and it's all okay.
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And for me, I think as far as living a lie, like that side of it, where I feel like there's
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so much I want to say, I don't know how to say it.
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Well, maybe some of that too is like my timidity.
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I don't want to, I don't want anybody on my bad side.
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And so I'm not going to be willing to speak up.
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Like if there's somebody who's a bully or they're doing something wrong, that was part
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And I remember one time in particular, there was a setting where I felt uncomfortable with
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And I was so torn because here I am, I want to protect my kids.
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I want to be the mama bear that I'm supposed to be.
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And at the same time, I'm thinking, well, what does this person who is not a safe person to
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And in that moment, it's like, you just stop and it's like, no, what am I thinking?
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I'm going to speak up because I care so much about them that like jolted me.
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And I thought, how, how was I even sitting here?
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You got to stand up and not act like everything's okay.
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And I think that that was something that, um, was really difficult for me to get to that
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point to where I realized, okay, I need to speak up for the vulnerable.
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I need to stand up for truth and not be afraid of what people think.
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For those who aren't familiar, we don't have to rehash because we've already talked in multiple
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episodes about the teachings that you grew up under, but Bill Gothard, who he is and how
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his teachings kind of conditioned you and condition a lot of people under his teachings to make
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So just in a very short form, Bill Gothard was a man who came on the scene in the 60s
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and 70s promoting teachings that he had came up with.
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These were teachings that everyone should abide by.
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A lot of them were legalistic rules and things that he came up with thinking, okay, this is going
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to protect your family from the destruction that's in the world.
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So he would give you his seven basic principles that you need to follow to a T and these things
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are going to guarantee success for your family.
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They're going to, like I said, be a light to the nations.
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He would always talk about no matter what's happening, you need to have a perfect greeting
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and you need to constantly have this smile, act like everything's okay, be cheery, happy
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all the time, because that's how you're going to show others that you are walking with Christ.
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Like there was a certain side of that, that as believers, yes, when we're walking through
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trials and challenges, there are times where, you know, we, we need to have joy in the midst
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of sorrow, realizing that God has allowed this for a reason, but his side was more man-made
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rules of like, okay, well, here are the steps you need to follow.
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So whether you're a Christian or not, you can follow these steps to show people how good
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And it was, it felt like a performance in a show all the time.
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And so if you were having a hard day, he even had a line that he would bring.
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And when we visited his headquarters in Chicago, he would often bring this up.
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He would say, okay, we need to have the perfect greeting.
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So when you walk up to somebody, have a bright, cheery smile and shake their hand.
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So I remember a couple of times going up and I, and he would like have people do these little
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So they walk up to him and they'd say, that he'd say, how are you doing?
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Now you're sharing with the Lord world that you are doing great.
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And it's like, but then if you looked at the lives of his followers, sadly, they were living
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a lie, half of them were not able to stop the indulgence of their flesh because it was
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outward things they were doing as even like some of them may have been believers.
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Some of them weren't, but they were trying to find a key outside of scripture, outside
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That was not from the Lord, not asking the Lord to help them, but they would just, they
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would go to these things and say, okay, well, I've got to follow his steps.
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And then I'm going to be free from this sin, or I'm going to be able to impact the world
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And so I think we saw that time and time again, when Bill Gothard himself, he was, um, accused
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And there were just so many things that came up.
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A lot of his followers had issues that were so deep and so awful.
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And, um, ton of, ton of them, even the people who were at headquarters would go there, do
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all these ministry trips with him and they would wear the right clothes, the Navy and
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But then on the inside, half of them ended up leaving because they were not truly transformed.
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So the external side of that, that focus on the externals, like the, the Pharisees, really,
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And then when real life hits, when temptation comes, they fall because they were not truly
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the Lord's or they were not truly grounded in the word.
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And there's just this aspect of prosperity gospel in it, because it's, if you follow these
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rules, then God is almost compelled or obligated to bless you.
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Like if you follow the structure of protection, I remember one of the things that you talked
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about, kind of like the picture of the umbrella that God is protecting the man, the man is protecting
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And if you disobey, then you fall out of God's protection.
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So not only does it change your view of people because you're thinking, okay, if I disrupt
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this relationship or I make this person mad, then I'm maybe not following the rules, but
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then you're thinking also, maybe God is not going to protect me anymore if I don't obey
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So I imagine that part of people pleasing is not just about idolatry of what people think,
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but also this fear that if I don't please all these people that God has placed in my life,
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perfectly in accordance to what they tell me to do, then maybe God isn't pleased with
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So it becomes a very fearful and anxious existence, I imagine.
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I think you nailed it there because that is a huge part that we often can overlook, like
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especially in the Christian setting, we realize that God is a loving heavenly father.
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We know that in theory, but then in practice, it can often be something that we forget.
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And I think that that performance-based mindset that we can fall into, especially when you
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do grow up under a setting of a teacher telling you that, okay, if you step outside of these
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rules, these outward standards, if it's like wearing pants or if it's listening to music
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with drums, even if it's the Gettys, then you're bringing the destruction upon yourself that God
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could smite you dead because of it. And I think that that fear can cripple you and it can put you
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in such a bad place and a bad view of God. And so, yeah, and even the people pleasing that plays
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into that, I think is there. You see it because for me, I remember just being like, okay, people
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would tell me, oh, Ginger, you know, cause I'm so conservative on my music and on my dress,
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I would make sure my skirts fell like halfway between my, you know, my, uh, on your shin.
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And I was like, this is how I'm supposed to dress. It's so modest. And they would like praise you for
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it. And then I felt like, oh yes, I am doing really good. And I was trying to do, keep up all
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the outward things until I couldn't anymore until I was so broken. And I wasn't saved until the age of 14.
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And all those years I was being praised for all the things I was doing. And I mean,
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that can happen in a Christian setting where you're so thankful to be taught the gospel.
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I was taught the true gospel from my parents that salvation is not by works and that is a gift of
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God. But then at the same time, I think the way that played out in my life was like, okay,
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I know what to do. I'm going to do it. I was also more of a temperament. Like I said,
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I like to get along with people. So I am going to try to make everybody happy. So if my parents
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tell me, this is how we're going to dress, this is what we're going to listen to. Okay,
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I'll do that. Like, I'm not going to buck up against it because I don't want to make you mad.
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And I also want your approval. And so that was something I noticed this pattern of just like
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trying to keep everyone happy around me. And it wasn't until I realized I can't do that. Whenever I
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have differences and disagreements, whenever I stopped walking in those teachings of Bill Gothard,
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immediately it shifted. And I had people mad at me for living by conviction, for not, when I started
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wearing pants, it was hard. There were people who were very upset about that. And they felt like I
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was walking away from the faith for marrying somebody who was in a different theological camp
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So was this the, because I remember when, I don't even know if, was it paparazzi or someone who saw
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you like wearing shorts or pants and it became a thing? Was it a controversy within your family or
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is it more people online who expected you to always dress a certain way? And when you diverted from
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that, they thought that you were no longer a believer.
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Yeah, I think that there were, there were so many people who were saying things about the way I was
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addressing and, um, like online, online and friends and loved ones that were more concerned because
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they were kind of like, okay, you've had this conviction or so we thought for all these years.
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And then once shortly after I was married, then I was not following those convictions anymore. And
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some of them thought, okay, maybe it's Jeremy who's forcing you to wear pants or something, but
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we're not talking about immodest, which is really important to say here because that is what it is.
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You realize that, okay, that is not necessarily the biblical standard of modesty. Yes, we're
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supposed to be modest, but it is not a biblical dictate that women have to be wearing dresses
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or skirts. So that was the difference of conviction that people were worried about.
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Totally. And this is the thing, because I went to so many, um, conferences with ATI,
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Bill Gotha conferences. I went to his headquarters countless times. And I say his headquarters,
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he had this place, they called it headquarters. And it was his place where he had all these
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young, attractive people who were singles. And he would tell them, come work for me,
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but they had to wear these certain clothes. And so they would often wear suits and all of that.
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The girls would wear like, you know, the sports jackets with like the, the pencil skirts. Well,
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a lot of them, if you look at that, it was interesting because the love, the standard of modesty,
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like I said, a lot of these things are external. They're like, so they're like the letter of the
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law. And so as long as you are wearing it below the knee, you're modest. Well, I saw so many girls
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who were very modest in that setting, trying to draw attention to themselves in wrong ways,
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who were wearing a skirt, or maybe they were wearing a long skirt and they were doing the same,
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but their attitude of their heart was very immodest, very, um, not probably honoring to
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God in the way they carried themselves. And then you'd see people in a pair of jeans and it was like,
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oh yeah, you're so modest. Like, so I think I started to realize there was a distinction there.
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There was a difference than I may have thought initially. And if somebody is convicted to wear
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skirts only, it doesn't bother me because if that's their conviction before God, I get it. Like
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you can have that conviction, but I started wanting to examine the scriptures for myself and to see
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what God's word actually said. And then to walk in that was hard because like I said,
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I was a people pleaser. I wanted to keep everyone happy. And so the second I wore pants or shorts,
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um, immediately I had people who were very upset about that. And online there were constantly
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tabloid articles, paparazzi photos that were taken. And I would be out at the grocery store,
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not thinking, cause I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to run out and get groceries. And then
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there would be headlines just blasting, saying things that were not true even about why I was
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wearing that. Like Ginger does this despite her family. And I'm like, no, I don't. I'm just
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literally running to the grocery store. And I think a lot of those things I realized I cannot be so
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consumed what the critics say about me. Cause one day they're going to praise me. One day they're
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going to hate me. They're going to say all the false things. So I just determined to try to stay off,
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like stay offline to not look at all of those things. Um, because it was, it was really for
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a while it was an identity check. I realized I was like, how much am I consumed with what
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everyone around me thinks? And for a while it, it like was so hard for me to, to wrestle with.
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Cause I was like, Oh no, they're going to believe this about me. Or maybe my friends are going to
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read this headline and they're going to see it. And they're going to think this is true.
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But then at the end of the day, I was like, no, okay, whatever I'm doing before God,
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that's all that matters. I want, I want to be pleasing to God, not pleasing to everyone around
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me. And if they can see that I love God, I'm honoring him in this way, then he will protect
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that. If there's reputation that needs to be protected, God will do that, but I need to leave it to him.
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And that's really kind of the core of your book is trying to please God, to honor him,
00:22:20.300
to glorify him and allowing him to take care of the rest because trying to please others constantly
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is a really heavy burden to carry. Like I've talked to Christians who say, you know, I just don't want
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any enemies. And of course I feel that way. I don't want people mad at me. I don't want people to be
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saying mean things about me. No one wants that because there's a certain level of tension there
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that just doesn't feel good. But also it's a really heavy burden to try to make sure that you
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don't ever have any enemies that no one ever disagrees with you. No one is ever offended by anything you do
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or say that is also a really difficult yoke to carry. Yeah, I think so for sure. Especially
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because like we realize, okay, yeah, we don't want people saying mean things. If I walked into a room
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every day and somebody was standing there like, okay, Ginger, this is what I hate about you. All
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these things, we would be beat down. Why? Because we were made for community. Community is a good thing.
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And like we were designed to be in the church. We were designed to have these relationships with family
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and at the end of the day, we have to realize though, okay, that has been broken because of sin.
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The curse of sin came and then all of this brokenness and heartache comes. So families are often
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not as close as we wish they were or there will be loved ones who betray you and they'll say mean
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things about you. And at the end of the day, like you said, it's like I want to be at a place where
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I'm not consumed by that. Because if my identity is first in Christ, then that is going to change
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everything about how I view myself. Am I just trying to get stuff out of everyone around me? Am I trying
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to find the approval that I'm seeking from others? Like I'm just desperate for their approval,
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their opinion, like to be their friend, maybe because they're well-known or because they have a
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lot of money. Well, those things are all selfish and they're wrong. And so we see that skewed side
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of community, wanting people pleasing for selfish motives. But that's where I think the beauty of
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the gospel is Christ who came to lay down his life. He was beaten. He was bruised. He took the weight of
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our sin upon him. And when you think about that, it changes everything because he did not come to be
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served, but he came to serve, to lay down his life, to give his life as a ransom for us. And when we have
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that perspective of like, okay, no matter what other people may say or do, I want my life to be glorifying
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to God. I want to be in a place where I can say, okay, no matter what I'm doing, I am going to lay down
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my life for others and I'm going to serve them, not expecting anything in return.
00:25:04.460
And that leads to what I was thinking about is, okay, what is the difference between laying down
00:25:12.740
your life for other people, putting them before you, considering their interests more important
00:25:19.120
than your own and people pleasing, which is unhealthy. Yeah. I think there's such an interesting
00:25:26.560
distinction there because what I've seen too, in my own life, there've been so many negative aspects
00:25:33.600
of people pleasing that have stood out to me throughout the years, because we do have this
00:25:37.820
side of like, okay, as Christians, we are to lay down our lives, we're to serve others around us.
00:25:42.960
But I've also been in settings where it's been super interesting, like church settings,
00:25:48.000
where there are the serial servers, as I would call them. These serial servers, they're people who are
00:25:52.880
just doing everything in the church. And they're like in every children's play for Christmas,
00:25:59.600
they're, you know, serving, they're getting the communion stuff ready. They're doing all the
00:26:04.860
events and serving in nursery, cleaning the church afterwards. And it's like, wow, that's amazing.
00:26:10.900
And this, there can be that side of it where those serial servers are doing so much. Or for me,
00:26:19.080
I went to the other extreme of people pleasing where I felt like I had to isolate myself.
00:26:23.960
And this is, this is because like, whenever somebody might reach out to me, and they're like,
00:26:31.400
hey, Ginger, like, I'm in a tough spot. Well, for convenience sake, there were so many times I
00:26:37.620
wanted to say, okay, to this young college girl, I wanted to tell her like, yeah, you're gonna have
00:26:42.900
to find another day to come over because I looked around, my house was a mess. And that was the one
00:26:47.780
thing that wanted to keep me from inviting her over. Because I was like, so ashamed of how my
00:26:53.800
house looked, or my kids looked a little ragged, or maybe I did, you know, no makeup on, there's
00:26:59.200
still dish, a sink full of dishes there. And I would just, instead of inviting her over into that,
00:27:08.280
it's not like my house looks like that every day. And that's part of the people pleasing. Like I was
00:27:12.760
like, okay, well, should I invite her over? I remember one specific day, where I had even a
00:27:18.640
little, my little one was like an infant. And I felt like a mess. Postpartum life, there were toys
00:27:26.900
all over my living room. And it was just a rough day. Like it was a very rough day. And I remember I
00:27:33.780
got a phone call, this girl was like, can I come over? I'm really struggling. And in that moment,
00:27:38.520
I froze. Like, I was so embarrassed about my house. I felt like I was a mess that day. I felt
00:27:44.180
so, even spiritually, I felt like down. I was like, I haven't read my Bible probably in a couple days.
00:27:49.460
Just been up nursing at night. Like, what do I have to give this girl? And at that time,
00:27:54.260
I almost traded down. I almost didn't have her over. And because you just wanted everything to be
00:28:00.880
perfect. I wanted to keep up this, this perfect persona of like, she was in our college ministry where
00:28:06.480
my husband was preaching each week. And I thought, great, she's going to come into this mess and see
00:28:10.580
Jeremy is a terrible person because look at, look at how I can't keep the house together. And in that
00:28:17.540
moment, I, I thought about it and I was like, okay, if I say no, I'm going to go clean my house and
00:28:23.700
then I'll invite her over tomorrow or next week is really when I had time. So I was like, that's too
00:28:28.080
far away. I need to say yes. So I said, yes. I took like all of like five minutes because she was in
00:28:33.760
the area. So like it took all of five minutes to like straighten two things. She came in literally
00:28:39.340
like walked across toys to get to me on the couch with my baby. And we talked and she was in such a,
00:28:46.820
such need that day. And she was just like totally, um, disarming because she was like, thank you so
00:28:54.000
much for having me. I just really want to talk to you. And we had the best conversation. She didn't
00:28:59.260
even, I was like, do you even notice how terrible my house looks right now? And the kids cry that
00:29:05.720
you're up and down, up and down, you know, as you're talking to people. And at the end of the
00:29:09.660
day, I realized in that time, I almost traded down from something that was so important just to keep
00:29:13.720
up this perfect persona of who I thought I needed to present myself as. And in that moment though,
00:29:20.320
it actually created a deeper relationship with her because then we ended up meeting up more often
00:29:25.220
to like talk. And I wouldn't feel like, feel bad or think twice before I had her over. Um,
00:29:31.480
because then I thought in that mess, like, I, I don't want to be so consumed about what she thinks
00:29:37.420
about me that I just ignore her problems. I was thinking about, okay, what is she going to think
00:29:42.380
about me? Like, what can I get out of this? You know, instead of like, how does she need to be
00:29:46.260
served in this moment? And so I think we see those situations will come up all the time. And there's
00:29:52.160
also a time to say no, which is something that I had to learn. Cause the other side of me is I will
00:29:58.740
just say, no, like I can't do anything. I'm going to isolate myself. Cause I just, I don't know,
00:30:04.700
at times you'll feel like, yes, you just have to keep up that persona. And so for those of us who
00:30:10.380
may lean more that way, I think realizing, okay, we need to be able to say, we need to be able to say,
00:30:16.960
okay, what would you have me to do God? And that can be different for each person because in certain
00:30:21.380
seasons of life, when we have too much going on, I need to be able to say no to things. Like we
00:30:25.740
can't have host a Bible study at our house this week. Cause I need to take care of my kids and my
00:30:30.100
family, or maybe it is sacrificial the next week where I'm like, okay, I don't feel like doing this,
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00:32:01.080
Tell me more about this concept of trading down.
00:32:09.520
Yeah. It's like Jacob and Esau. So in the Bible where that story comes up, that's the first thing
00:32:15.260
that I think about because it's something that we've heard the story over and over about Jacob
00:32:21.620
and Esau and there's a birthright and they have this exchange between how there was this bowl of
00:32:32.180
soup and there was a trading down for a birthright. And I think in that setting, we can see how foolish
00:32:41.580
it seems that you would sacrifice your inheritance for a bowl of soup and give that up. But in our
00:32:49.160
normal lives, like every single day, I think I look at that like, and I've thought through it so
00:32:54.000
many times recently where I am faced every day with this reality of like, will I trade down for
00:33:00.960
what actually matters in the moment? Will I sacrifice my time and energy and will I give myself to others
00:33:11.360
or will I trade down for lesser? So like with that girl, or I have friends, mom friends who came over,
00:33:17.000
one of her kids was eating Cheerios off my floor, dried Cheerios. She crawled under my table,
00:33:22.580
grabbed dry Cheerios because I had invited her over into my messy house. And her baby was literally
00:33:28.420
eating these Cheerios and I was sitting there. I felt like my face was red. I was mortified that
00:33:33.140
she was there. It was like her second time at my house. And I thought, she's going to hate me.
00:33:38.380
She is going to hate me because she's going to think this is a terrible place to bring my kid.
00:33:41.760
I can't bring her into this mess. But I almost traded down that relationship because she wanted
00:33:47.400
to come over last minute. And she has a little one. She doesn't have family near me, us. And I was
00:33:54.500
like, okay, yeah, you can come over and like hang out. But I knew that I couldn't clean up in time.
00:34:00.220
And that's always the challenge, right? So I almost traded down that relationship, which ended up,
00:34:05.720
she's my best friend now in LA. And she just comes over all the time. We'll do projects together.
00:34:12.020
Like if my house is a wreck or if my storage room or garage that I didn't want anybody to see,
00:34:18.240
she'll come over and she'll be like, let's tackle this. We have an hour before my baby needs to go
00:34:22.400
down for now. Come over and then I'll go to her house and we'll do the same thing. But I almost
00:34:26.200
traded down that genuine relationship of like, okay, I'm going to keep up this facade of who I want you
00:34:31.740
to think I am. And I'm never going to show you my mess. I'm never going to let you into my life.
00:34:36.540
I'm not going to tell you how I'm struggling. I'm not going to tell you how you can pray for me.
00:34:40.640
And I think a lot of that can be a challenge because we realize not everyone can you open
00:34:47.480
your life up to. Not everyone can you have there because there are people who will betray that trust.
00:34:52.280
And at the end of the day, you have to realize, okay, I need to be willing to be vulnerable,
00:34:58.200
willing to be, um, my, like to be raw and to share who I truly am. Um, but then at the same time,
00:35:06.480
I think that there can also be a wisdom in being guarded in certain areas, realizing who is
00:35:12.240
trustworthy. And so that people pleasing can show up in many different ways. It can go either
00:35:17.180
direction. It can, it can go be an overshare because you feel like you constantly are trying
00:35:21.600
to connect with people and make them feel better. And so you're sharing so much, but it can also show
00:35:26.320
up and thinking, well, I never want anyone to think anything bad about me or to be mad at me.
00:35:31.340
So I'm just going to be completely closed off and shut down.
00:35:34.400
A hundred percent. Yes, for sure. And I think that I've had, um, wrestlings both ways, like
00:35:40.940
with, with my friend, I remember the first time I was walking through a really difficult time and,
00:35:47.600
um, she came over and I talked to her and it was like a godsend, you know, in that moment. And I just
00:35:55.160
thought, wow, like I almost, I almost just kept that to myself, but I was so torn up inside and
00:36:02.300
I needed a friend to talk to. And the Lord used those things too, to like draw us closer in
00:36:07.740
friendship. Um, because I was willing to share like, Hey, I'm struggling. This is a hard thing.
00:36:12.120
Like walking through this, I need prayer, not keeping up this facade of like, Oh, I'm the perfect
00:36:17.240
Christian. I read my Bible every single day for an hour. And I pray like all these things. No,
00:36:21.800
I don't have it together. I haven't read my Bible for a week. I'm, I'm so exhausted. I have an infant.
00:36:26.640
I need prayer. Please help me. You know? And those types of things I think often will bring
00:36:33.180
you closer in relationships and friendships where you would never get there. If you were just
00:36:37.780
constantly trying to protect yourself and trying to keep up that facade. And as moms, this is another
00:36:45.760
side, we have such differences in how we parent. And that was something that was hard for me to talk
00:36:52.620
about because I would just kind of like, okay, we don't do sleep training or we don't do, maybe we're
00:36:59.360
not eating as healthy as we should. And I'm kind of embarrassed about that because I try to eat
00:37:02.880
healthy, but Oh, when this family comes over, I need to serve you organic food. And let me put away
00:37:07.460
all of the snacks that maybe, maybe this has a little GMO in it. Let me just put that away. Cause I was
00:37:12.580
so like consumed with what they thought about me that I couldn't have real relationships.
00:37:18.080
So here I am trying to live, live out my life and it was draining me. It was so exhausting because I
00:37:26.240
was constantly just like, Oh, this family does this. So I need to do this when they're here. Oh,
00:37:30.540
this family does this. Okay. We need to, we need to like clean our home. We need to, um, be live a
00:37:36.060
minimalist life, whatever it is, you know? And with moms, I feel like that can quickly become
00:37:40.680
comparison and that tension can form. And then you're not actually being real and genuine
00:37:47.180
with that person. You're just creating this little facade of who you want them to think you are.
00:37:53.220
Mm-hmm. In the story of Mary and Martha, would you say that Martha was trading down by doing what she
00:38:02.700
thought needed to be done around the house, but really she was ignoring the true opportunity
00:38:10.680
there. The most important thing with Jesus. Yes. Jesus there for sure. I think that that is,
00:38:17.180
that is such a beautiful picture that we see in scripture. Um, because it's a reminder to all of
00:38:23.960
us that we don't want to trade down from that, that greater thing. And I think that, um, those
00:38:30.680
relationships and that time that you can't get back, that is something that time with Jesus that
00:38:36.520
Martha just missed out on. Like she traded down for that, um, just to be busy, just constantly
00:38:42.760
going. And I think that's what we see, like serial service, people who are just doing so much in the
00:38:46.240
church. Well, you may be missing out on genuine relationships. Maybe you need to slow down. Maybe
00:38:50.220
you need to actually sit in on a couple of church services instead of serving every church service,
00:38:55.240
because maybe your soul's suffering. Maybe you're keeping up this facade for everybody else thinking,
00:38:59.520
wow, she's serving everyone in the church. She's doing all of this. Well, maybe you need to stop.
00:39:03.920
Maybe you need to soak in some of that, go to a Bible study, connect in a small group. Um, because
00:39:08.980
a lot of that, it will be approval of men, but then, you know, in yourself, there's a time to serve.
00:39:16.100
There's a time to learn to, and sit down and to enjoy that. So yeah, for sure.
00:39:22.140
I'm realizing as you're talking that ironically people pleasing is really more self-centered that
00:39:29.720
even if you think that you're just trying to make other people happy. Well, I'm just serving. I'm
00:39:35.020
just doing this. I'm just cleaning up my house. I'm constantly doing these things because I care
00:39:39.440
so much about other people. But when I'm just examining my own heart, because I'm certainly
00:39:44.020
more of the person that leans in the direction of, um, like close, closed off. Like I, I won't want to
00:39:52.240
connect or have people over unless things like look and sound and seem like I've got it together.
00:39:59.540
And when I think about my motivations behind that, is it really because I'm so scared that
00:40:05.080
that person's going to be offended or hurt by the crumbs on the floor? No, it's really about me.
00:40:10.280
It's really about, I want them to perceive me in a certain way. So like we could say that it is
00:40:16.860
idolatry of people, but at the end of the day, at least for myself, when I struggle with people
00:40:21.880
pleasing, it's really idolatry of self or idolatry of what I want people to think that I am. And it
00:40:29.520
seems to me as you're explaining what people pleasing is, that that kind of is whether you
00:40:34.240
swing in one direction or the other, like the common motivation, it's really more about the self
00:40:40.160
than it is about truly serving other people. Exactly. Yeah. The self-centered selfishness,
00:40:46.860
in pride that, that lies there in our hearts, because it is, it is that, that understanding
00:40:54.480
of like, okay, we want to have true community, want to have friendships. Yes, we're made for that.
00:40:59.120
But I think the expectation that we set for ourselves in that standard, that's so high,
00:41:04.500
we want to keep it up. It is something that can really cripple us and expose our true heart.
00:41:11.760
Like you said, behind it, am I loving this person well by keeping them out? Or should I show the
00:41:18.600
love of Christ, even when I don't feel like it, even when my house is a mess and don't get me wrong.
00:41:23.680
I love a clean house. Jeremy knows like I, I will clean, clean, clean, clean, clean. Cause I cannot
00:41:29.780
stand clutter. I cannot stand mess. Yeah. So my house is not like, I'm not just living in squalor.
00:41:34.740
You might think that when you walk in sometimes, but it's, it's not that we're, we're careless. We
00:41:41.340
don't care. We throw it all out. And I don't care when people come over, they're going to walk into
00:41:45.600
my mess. Well, you know, sometimes you do need to clean up. And like, if you're expecting somebody,
00:41:50.120
yeah, clean up your house, put on a candle, make it look pretty or essential oils, you know?
00:41:56.140
So let's just say that depending on how crunchy you are. Right. Right. Um, but I think with that,
00:42:01.980
like there is a certain level of realizing, okay, I'm going to do my best. I'm going to try to
00:42:07.640
show others that I care, um, and then leave the rest up to God and your reputation.
00:42:17.700
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00:43:55.120
I was just talking to someone, um, her name is Abby and she wrote a cookbook and we had like this
00:44:00.660
hospitality special that, uh, that we hosted together. I was really learning from her and I
00:44:07.620
love what she says just about the heart behind hospitality. And it sounds a lot like what you're
00:44:13.020
saying that there shouldn't be an emphasis when we're thinking about any kind of service to other
00:44:18.320
people, whether it's opening our home or serving someone in another way. It's really not about the
00:44:23.720
presentation or perfection. There's nothing wrong with presentation and with caring, but it really
00:44:28.920
is about the heart of invitation that Jesus displays so well in scripture. And even just like
00:44:37.480
the symbol of the table and dining and feasting and all of these things, it can be great to put
00:44:43.040
effort behind that and to care. And maybe that's something that you're naturally good at. And so
00:44:47.500
you're using that excellence to serve other people and to glorify God. But she also talks about in the
00:44:53.500
very beginning of her, you know, her hospitality endeavor, she was a really bad cook and she wasn't
00:44:59.880
good at it. And she was embarrassed to invite people over. And yet the Lord kept on adding people
00:45:05.200
to her table every week. And this was back when she was just single. And that was really convicting
00:45:10.220
to me because I I'm not a natural. I am definitely not natural at that kind of stuff. So I feel like
00:45:17.040
I have to work hard at it. I love having people in my house, but I'm not a good cook either. Yeah.
00:45:21.320
And so it is like almost I will defeat myself before I start. But again, it's self motivated
00:45:26.920
because it's not that, oh, I'm afraid I'm my food is going to poison those people. It's like,
00:45:31.620
yeah, I don't want them to think it's not. I'm not perfect gourmet. Yes. Not amazing.
00:45:36.640
In that realm. Yes. So there is such a there's such a balance between yeah, putting effort in when
00:45:41.720
it's appropriate and good to do so. But also letting things be knowing that the perfection
00:45:47.640
of the presentation is not the point if you're really serving people. Yeah, for sure. I think
00:45:53.760
we've all been at we've all been at places where it's like, okay, you'll go to a place I was just
00:45:59.460
thinking of I think it's a proverb. And I can't even remember the full thing. I'm the worst at like
00:46:04.560
references and all of that. But like, better is a dinner of herbs where love is and a stalled ox and
00:46:10.180
hatred there. Like just thinking of that, that's King James, because all my things are all memorized
00:46:14.320
in King James. Yes. But just thinking about that, like you can have the best layout, you can have the
00:46:20.720
best platter. And you can be at a place that's very rough. I've been at a meal that was super fancy
00:46:26.440
before. And it was like people were just at each other. Well, the meal wasn't enjoyable. It was
00:46:31.940
fancy. It looked nice, but you just wanted to leave. And then you go to somebody's house and they serve
00:46:36.900
you like a, let's just say like a casserole, right? And there's all the stuff in there. You don't know
00:46:42.960
what's in there. It's a little scary at times. But you eat that and it's like you're enjoying sweet
00:46:47.960
fellowship. And you don't think twice because the setting is different. There's love. There's excitement
00:46:54.080
in your fellowshipping. You go away blessed. And I think that often we forget that because it does
00:47:00.020
seem like you have to have it all together. But the hospitality of like even having college students
00:47:05.480
since we're in college ministry, like having college students in our house all the time,
00:47:09.140
they'll come in and just, you know, like at unique times, like they'll say, Hey, can we stop by? It's
00:47:14.960
like later at night. And sometimes we discard that because it's family time. But other times it's like,
00:47:19.120
yeah, stop by. And so many times you can't have everything all together, but you're like, Hey,
00:47:23.760
would you like a snack or something? And I'm like, what do I have in my cabinet? I don't even know
00:47:27.460
you pull out something. And, um, I think those are some of the sweetest moments that we've had
00:47:32.500
is just like those on the fly. Like, okay, I'm going to have you come and we're going to have this,
00:47:36.920
this time together and they'll stay for a couple hours and chat. And it's like the sweetest thing.
00:47:41.840
And we look forward to that and you can't recreate it. You can't like have these moments that you plan out,
00:47:47.920
but when you let them happen and you do open up your home and you do have those times where
00:47:52.620
you're just, you're, you know, you're in a t-shirt and shorts, no makeup. And I'm like,
00:47:58.840
okay, I feel like a big mess right now, but come on over. Yeah. Those things are some of the sweetest
00:48:03.700
times that you'll experience. So for the person who is listening or watching, they're like, okay,
00:48:09.140
yeah, I struggle with people pleasing, but how do I stop? They know these ideas. I'm supposed to focus
00:48:16.320
on the Lord. I'm not supposed to focus on myself and over-focus on other people. Like,
00:48:20.900
what are some practical steps that they can take or things that they can read or think about or do
00:48:26.300
to try to rid themselves of this burden? Because it really is a heavy burden for sure. Yeah. I think
00:48:32.700
it's interesting because as I looked at it, um, it's interesting that the solution, the key to people
00:48:39.360
pleasing is people pleasing, which sounds so crazy. It's like the cure to a snake bite. Like we have tons
00:48:46.360
of copperheads in our area and the cure to that is the antivetum of a copperhead. That's what's going
00:48:51.960
to cure your snake bite. Um, but the same way here is we have to realize there's good people pleasing,
00:48:56.600
bad people pleasing. And, um, the negative side of that, the bad people pleasing is when we are so
00:49:03.360
desperately craving somebody's, um, what they can give to us. Like, what can I get from you? We need
00:49:09.420
to stop asking that question. What can I get out of you? Are you a person of status? Do you have money
00:49:14.300
for me? Um, how are you going to serve me at church? Like when you walk into church, like,
00:49:18.560
what are you thinking? Are you thinking how, what can I get out of this? Well, you're going to live
00:49:22.520
a miserable existence because you are constantly looking for others to approve of you or for them
00:49:28.560
to give to you. And we need to start loving and serving others, asking for nothing in return when
00:49:36.700
we're willing to give of ourselves, of our time, our energy, our resources, and to be a listening ear
00:49:44.140
for someone to invite somebody into our crumb filled house. You know, then those are the things
00:49:50.880
that we can see and say, okay, I want to seek, seek to serve others as Christ did laying down his
00:49:57.440
life. And that will change everything because when we're no longer focused on what that person thinks
00:50:04.880
of me, well, I can serve them. And if they spit in my face because they, they hate how I did that.
00:50:10.660
Well, I want to do this as unto God, not unto them, not unto men. Um, not like in Ephesians six,
00:50:19.180
I think verses five through eight or so it's talking about not doing things with, um, eye service as
00:50:27.080
people pleasers, but doing it as unto God. I think that that will change everything because like I said,
00:50:33.460
we're, we are so consumed with what people think about us. Like I said, community is good.
00:50:39.180
We were designed for it. But at the end of the day, if that's our end all, if that's where we're
00:50:45.020
going to live and die is upon somebody else's opinion of us, then that is sinful and that is
00:50:51.960
wrong. And so the encouragement we can take is that when we do that, it will set us free to love and
00:50:57.500
serve others. Well, not from a toxic place of trying to gain from them, what we are craving the most
00:51:03.900
that we can only get from God, but finding our approval and identity and God, then we can go
00:51:09.080
out to love and serve others freely from a place of overflow and joy, not trying to like get something
00:51:16.080
from them. Yeah. That applies to what we do and also applies to the things we say. I think fear of
00:51:22.940
man either compels us to say things that aren't true or that we don't believe or compels us to stay
00:51:28.940
silent about things that are true and that we do believe. And I think in both areas, we have to
00:51:36.600
consider how Jesus was treated, how the apostles were treated, how Stephen was treated. I mean,
00:51:43.260
Jesus obviously was full of grace and truth. God is love. So he was, is the most loving everything
00:51:51.780
he said and did, he did from a place of profound love. Stephen was also full of grace and yet he
00:52:00.820
was stoned to death after saying something that was true, doing the most loving thing he could
00:52:04.660
possibly could, which was sharing the gospel with people who didn't want to hear it because he loved
00:52:09.660
them. And did they say, wow, like you're really compelling and charismatic. Thank you for that. No,
00:52:15.000
but thank you. No, they were so angry that they killed him. And obviously they crucified Jesus.
00:52:20.740
And I think a lot of us think that if we are nicer than God, or if we are more winsome and
00:52:27.580
persuasive than God and the apostles and Paul, then maybe we can be liked by the world and be accepted
00:52:35.620
by the church. Maybe we will be like the first Christians who are just accepted by everyone. I mean,
00:52:40.640
I fall into that. Everyone falls into that. But when you shift your perspective, like you just
00:52:46.500
said to, okay, what glorifies God most in this moment? Some people will love it. Some people
00:52:52.480
will hate it. And that doesn't matter. That frees us so much to simply live in the truth, not living a
00:52:59.720
lie, as you said, and also to just speak what is true in the right moment. For sure. A hundred percent.
00:53:05.940
I'm so glad you brought that up too, because that is something that we know that the world
00:53:10.180
will hate us because they hated Christ. And that is a good reminder too, because it is so easy to
00:53:16.060
cower in fear, to not want to speak up, to not want to share the truth. And I think that that's just
00:53:22.080
another aspect of people pleasing. I'm so glad you mentioned. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So it comes out
00:53:28.520
January 13th. And so by the time this comes out, you will actually be further along than 24 weeks,
00:53:34.880
this episode. And I'm guessing people can get the book. Yes. I believe it's January 14th. The book
00:53:40.600
comes out the 14th, but if they wanted to pre-order it today, they could. Yes. You can
00:53:44.640
pre-order it wherever books are sold. It's called People Pleaser. And so, yeah. And if you go ahead
00:53:51.020
and pre-order it on Amazon today, then you can, you might even be able to get it tomorrow. Sometimes
00:53:55.820
that happens. Yes, for sure. Or you can definitely get it soon and be one of the first people to read
00:54:01.640
it. Well, thank you so much, Ginger. I just love your story and I love your boldness.
00:54:05.780
And I know this is going to bless so many people. Thank you. Thank you, Allie.