Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1121 ｜ Jinger Duggar Vuolo on Escaping People-Pleasing & Setting Biblical Boundaries

00:00:00.860 Ginger Duggar Vuolo grew up under legalism, and because of that, she became a serial people-pleaser. 1.00

00:00:08.760 But now she's out with an amazing new book called People-Pleaser, Breaking Free from

00:00:13.680 the Burden of Imaginary Expectations.

00:00:16.700 And today she is going to talk about how she has dealt with this obsession with perfection,

00:00:23.100 with what other people think about her, and how she has allowed biblical truth, the true

00:00:27.760 gospel, to help her break free from that, and how we can do the same.

00:00:32.380 You're going to love this conversation.

00:00:34.440 It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:35.960 Go to GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:37.300 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:00:38.500 That's GoodRanchers.com.

00:00:39.780 Code Allie. 1.00

00:00:51.160 Ginger, thanks so much for coming back on the show.

00:00:53.720 Thanks for having me, Allie.

00:00:54.600 This is super fun.

00:00:55.520 Yeah.

00:00:55.820 So how are you feeling pregnancy-wise?

00:00:57.760 You know, I'm feeling good.

00:00:59.560 I'm 24 weeks.

00:01:00.900 I'm past the nausea now, and I'm kind of at that happy spot where I don't feel super huge.

00:01:07.020 Sweet spot.

00:01:07.500 But I'm able to have more energy and be able to get up and do projects around the house,

00:01:12.220 all the things that you need to get done before the baby comes.

00:01:15.880 So this is number three.

00:01:17.140 Yeah.

00:01:17.320 I'm sure everyone is so excited.

00:01:19.140 Your girls are so pumped. 1.00

00:01:20.740 They're stoked.

00:01:21.700 Yeah.

00:01:22.100 Especially Felicity, my oldest.

00:01:23.360 She's just super excited because she's at the stage where she's just talking about helping

00:01:28.320 with the baby and all of that.

00:01:30.740 So we're really, really looking forward to having another one.

00:01:33.420 Okay.

00:01:34.040 Do you feel like writing a book is kind of like having a baby?

00:01:38.260 Yes.

00:01:38.820 A hundred percent.

00:01:39.600 Because I felt like that.

00:01:40.540 So I'm very impressed that you have a new book out while you are a mom of now three and

00:01:45.560 having a real baby.

00:01:46.580 Yeah.

00:01:46.840 It's a little wild.

00:01:47.880 Like, I think you've been through the process multiple times as well.

00:01:50.940 You get it.

00:01:51.420 Like, there's a certain sense of when you're writing it, then the editing process, and

00:01:56.360 then when it comes out, then it's like promoting the book.

00:01:59.380 Yeah.

00:01:59.680 All of that stuff does take a lot of time and it does feel like you have just given birth

00:02:05.360 without the pain.

00:02:07.920 That's the part that I'm thankful for.

00:02:09.580 It's not as painful.

00:02:10.760 So it's more fun.

00:02:12.060 It's not painful in that sense, but there is so much effort and it's a lot of vulnerability

00:02:17.320 that you're putting out into the world, especially you, because you're sharing your story.

00:02:21.260 So you came on the show to talk about your last book, just your story of breaking free

00:02:26.540 from legalism, understanding the true gospel.

00:02:29.780 And now you've got this book about people pleasing.

00:02:32.220 So tell us about it.

00:02:33.540 Why did you write this book following your last one?

00:02:36.840 Yeah.

00:02:37.140 I think that once I wrote my last book and that process of writing it, it was very tough.

00:02:43.080 There were a lot of things I had to work through.

00:02:47.380 And I knew for so many years that I felt like I was a people pleaser.

00:02:52.720 I would see how I was so consumed with what other people thought about me and about keeping

00:02:59.360 everyone on my good side.

00:03:00.640 I wanted to make everyone happy, whether that was family and friends or even whenever I went

00:03:05.600 to write Becoming Free Indeed, it was talking about exposing the harmful teachings I grew

00:03:10.200 up under.

00:03:10.660 And that was something for me that was very difficult because it took me a lot of years

00:03:15.780 to get to that place where I felt like I could actually open up and speak on that topic.

00:03:22.380 And as I was talking to Jeremy, we were praying about the timing, praying about when to speak

00:03:28.220 up against these teachings.

00:03:31.000 That really made me realize, because for so many years, I was so crippled by what other people

00:03:36.660 were going to think that I would not speak up.

00:03:39.320 And it wasn't until it came to the point where there were so many things publicly that were

00:03:44.240 happening, things that were being said.

00:03:46.400 And I realized I was like, at the end of the day, I have to do what's right before God,

00:03:50.240 not before what my friends or my family may think I'm supposed to do.

00:03:55.420 And that was the hardest switch for me.

00:03:57.940 And I think at that time, I started seeing even more how I wanted to break free from these

00:04:04.040 people pleasing tendencies that were so ingrained in me.

00:04:07.460 I think some people may have it too, like they may have a deeper sense of that.

00:04:13.120 And others, it may not come as naturally.

00:04:15.360 Maybe they're more black and white and bold and like, I don't care what you think.

00:04:18.360 And they'll just speak whatever they want to.

00:04:20.660 But for me, it was more of a wrestling that I noticed.

00:04:23.480 And so definitely writing that book helped me to begin to like break free even more from

00:04:29.540 people pleasing.

00:04:30.120 Here's what you say in the introduction, and I think it's really poignant and powerful.

00:04:36.600 From the downfall of Bill Gothard to the horrible revelations about one of my siblings, here's

00:04:41.160 one of the most important things I've learned.

00:04:43.960 I won't live a lie.

00:04:46.740 Tell me about that revelation, that declaration of not living a lie.

00:04:52.280 Yeah, I think that it's so easy, especially if you grew up in a setting where it was performance

00:05:00.120 based in many ways.

00:05:01.720 Like my parents would encourage us to be authentic, to be ourselves.

00:05:04.760 But at the same time, the system that we grew up under, the teachings of Bill Gothard, were

00:05:10.100 very geared towards you performing, you doing well in this setting and letting other people

00:05:14.640 see that you were a light to the nations, that you were shining for everyone to see that.

00:05:22.140 But a lot of it was based on what you could do to get there.

00:05:26.660 And so it wasn't based on who you truly were.

00:05:29.600 And I think that with all of that in mind, that opening section there, I think once I realized,

00:05:39.060 okay, there was stuff going down, like you said, with my brother very publicly.

00:05:43.040 And the glory of God was, I don't want to say like at stake, because God's glory is going

00:05:49.520 to be made known.

00:05:51.080 But there were a lot of people who were saying a lot of things.

00:05:53.980 And I felt like, okay, they were equating Christianity to the teachings of Bill Gothard

00:05:58.540 or things like that.

00:05:59.560 And I was like, okay, at some point, I'm either going to have to be quiet, or I'm going to

00:06:03.580 have to speak up and stop acting like this is all right, and it's all okay.

00:06:08.060 And for me, I think as far as living a lie, like that side of it, where I feel like there's

00:06:15.380 so much I want to say, I don't know how to say it.

00:06:18.060 Well, maybe some of that too is like my timidity.

00:06:20.560 I don't want to, I don't want anybody on my bad side.

00:06:22.960 And so I'm not going to be willing to speak up.

00:06:25.440 I'm going to try to keep everybody happy.

00:06:26.800 Like if there's somebody who's a bully or they're doing something wrong, that was part

00:06:32.400 of the people pleasing for me.

00:06:33.460 I was not willing to speak up.

00:06:35.500 And I remember one time in particular, there was a setting where I felt uncomfortable with

00:06:42.020 my kids around someone.

00:06:43.180 And I was so torn because here I am, I want to protect my kids.

00:06:49.040 I want to be the mama bear that I'm supposed to be.

00:06:51.440 And at the same time, I'm thinking, well, what does this person who is not a safe person to

00:06:57.000 be around, what are they thinking of me?

00:06:59.180 And in that moment, it's like, you just stop and it's like, no, what am I thinking? 0.95

00:07:04.340 This is ridiculous.

00:07:05.160 Like I'm getting my kids out of the situation. 0.92

00:07:07.240 I'm protecting them.

00:07:08.460 I'm going to speak up because I care so much about them that like jolted me.

00:07:14.200 And I thought, how, how was I even sitting here?

00:07:16.640 Like questioning that for two seconds?

00:07:18.420 No, you have that instinct.

00:07:20.340 You got to stand up and not act like everything's okay.

00:07:23.200 And I think that that was something that, um, was really difficult for me to get to that

00:07:29.540 point to where I realized, okay, I need to speak up for the vulnerable.

00:07:32.580 I need to stand up for truth and not be afraid of what people think.

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00:08:56.820 For those who aren't familiar, we don't have to rehash because we've already talked in multiple

00:09:02.180 episodes about the teachings that you grew up under, but Bill Gothard, who he is and how

00:09:08.760 his teachings kind of conditioned you and condition a lot of people under his teachings to make

00:09:14.420 an idol of people pleasing.

00:09:16.500 Can you explain that?

00:09:17.680 For sure.

00:09:18.620 Yeah.

00:09:18.940 So just in a very short form, Bill Gothard was a man who came on the scene in the 60s

00:09:23.540 and 70s promoting teachings that he had came up with.

00:09:26.780 He said that they were the word of God.

00:09:28.600 These were teachings that everyone should abide by.

00:09:30.800 A lot of them were legalistic rules and things that he came up with thinking, okay, this is going

00:09:36.500 to protect your family from the destruction that's in the world.

00:09:42.320 So he would give you his seven basic principles that you need to follow to a T and these things

00:09:49.200 are going to guarantee success for your family.

00:09:51.400 So your kids are going to walk with the Lord.

00:09:53.800 They're going to, like I said, be a light to the nations.

00:09:56.580 That was his big thing.

00:09:57.980 He would always talk about no matter what's happening, you need to have a perfect greeting

00:10:02.440 and you need to constantly have this smile, act like everything's okay, be cheery, happy

00:10:08.840 all the time, because that's how you're going to show others that you are walking with Christ.

00:10:14.100 And I get it.

00:10:14.760 Like there was a certain side of that, that as believers, yes, when we're walking through

00:10:18.660 trials and challenges, there are times where, you know, we, we need to have joy in the midst

00:10:22.760 of sorrow, realizing that God has allowed this for a reason, but his side was more man-made

00:10:28.240 rules of like, okay, well, here are the steps you need to follow.

00:10:31.080 So whether you're a Christian or not, you can follow these steps to show people how good

00:10:36.040 you're doing.

00:10:36.820 And it was, it felt like a performance in a show all the time.

00:10:40.380 And so if you were having a hard day, he even had a line that he would bring.

00:10:44.320 And when we visited his headquarters in Chicago, he would often bring this up.

00:10:48.360 He would say, okay, we need to have the perfect greeting.

00:10:50.880 So when you walk up to somebody, have a bright, cheery smile and shake their hand.

00:10:55.400 And when they ask you, how are you doing?

00:10:57.140 You say, I am rejoicing.

00:10:58.560 So I remember a couple of times going up and I, and he would like have people do these little

00:11:04.040 things.

00:11:04.420 So they walk up to him and they'd say, that he'd say, how are you doing?

00:11:07.060 And he'd say, I'm rejoicing, Mr. Gothard.

00:11:09.080 I am rejoicing.

00:11:10.000 And he said, look at your bright countenance.

00:11:11.940 Wow.

00:11:12.280 Now you're sharing with the Lord world that you are doing great.

00:11:16.380 And it's like, but then if you looked at the lives of his followers, sadly, they were living

00:11:22.100 a lie, half of them were not able to stop the indulgence of their flesh because it was

00:11:27.320 outward things they were doing as even like some of them may have been believers.

00:11:32.840 Some of them weren't, but they were trying to find a key outside of scripture, outside

00:11:39.440 of themselves.

00:11:40.580 That was not from the Lord, not asking the Lord to help them, but they would just, they

00:11:45.560 would go to these things and say, okay, well, I've got to follow his steps.

00:11:49.360 And then I'm going to be free from this sin, or I'm going to be able to impact the world

00:11:54.600 around me.

00:11:55.200 And so I think we saw that time and time again, when Bill Gothard himself, he was, um, accused

00:12:02.180 by multiple women of sexual misconduct.

00:12:05.560 And there were just so many things that came up.

00:12:08.460 A lot of his followers had issues that were so deep and so awful.

00:12:13.880 And, um, ton of, ton of them, even the people who were at headquarters would go there, do

00:12:21.240 all these ministry trips with him and they would wear the right clothes, the Navy and

00:12:25.700 white that he wanted them to wear.

00:12:27.860 And they would keep up this facade.

00:12:29.840 But then on the inside, half of them ended up leaving because they were not truly transformed.

00:12:34.620 It was all outward.

00:12:35.520 So the external side of that, that focus on the externals, like the, the Pharisees, really,

00:12:41.400 I think that's what was driving his teachings.

00:12:43.820 So you prop people up until you can't anymore.

00:12:47.340 And then when real life hits, when temptation comes, they fall because they were not truly

00:12:52.600 the Lord's or they were not truly grounded in the word.

00:12:56.360 Everything was kind of outward.

00:12:57.860 And there's just this aspect of prosperity gospel in it, because it's, if you follow these

00:13:03.540 rules, then God is almost compelled or obligated to bless you.

00:13:08.020 Like if you follow the structure of protection, I remember one of the things that you talked

00:13:12.300 about, kind of like the picture of the umbrella that God is protecting the man, the man is protecting

00:13:17.520 the wife, protecting the children.

00:13:18.860 And if you disobey, then you fall out of God's protection.

00:13:22.780 So not only does it change your view of people because you're thinking, okay, if I disrupt

00:13:29.120 this relationship or I make this person mad, then I'm maybe not following the rules, but

00:13:35.080 then you're thinking also, maybe God is not going to protect me anymore if I don't obey

00:13:40.260 these rules.

00:13:40.940 So I imagine that part of people pleasing is not just about idolatry of what people think,

00:13:47.380 but also this fear that if I don't please all these people that God has placed in my life,

00:13:52.320 perfectly in accordance to what they tell me to do, then maybe God isn't pleased with

00:13:58.600 me.

00:13:59.020 So it becomes a very fearful and anxious existence, I imagine.

00:14:05.020 Yes, for sure.

00:14:05.760 I think you nailed it there because that is a huge part that we often can overlook, like

00:14:13.140 especially in the Christian setting, we realize that God is a loving heavenly father.

00:14:18.540 We know that in theory, but then in practice, it can often be something that we forget.

00:14:24.820 And I think that that performance-based mindset that we can fall into, especially when you

00:14:30.720 do grow up under a setting of a teacher telling you that, okay, if you step outside of these

00:14:35.620 rules, these outward standards, if it's like wearing pants or if it's listening to music

00:14:40.360 with drums, even if it's the Gettys, then you're bringing the destruction upon yourself that God 0.97

00:14:46.940 could smite you dead because of it. And I think that that fear can cripple you and it can put you

00:14:53.300 in such a bad place and a bad view of God. And so, yeah, and even the people pleasing that plays

00:14:58.640 into that, I think is there. You see it because for me, I remember just being like, okay, people

00:15:05.760 would tell me, oh, Ginger, you know, cause I'm so conservative on my music and on my dress,

00:15:09.940 I would make sure my skirts fell like halfway between my, you know, my, uh, on your shin. 0.96

00:15:15.200 And I was like, this is how I'm supposed to dress. It's so modest. And they would like praise you for

00:15:19.800 it. And then I felt like, oh yes, I am doing really good. And I was trying to do, keep up all

00:15:24.680 the outward things until I couldn't anymore until I was so broken. And I wasn't saved until the age of 14.

00:15:31.200 And all those years I was being praised for all the things I was doing. And I mean,

00:15:36.200 that can happen in a Christian setting where you're so thankful to be taught the gospel.

00:15:40.620 I was taught the true gospel from my parents that salvation is not by works and that is a gift of

00:15:45.880 God. But then at the same time, I think the way that played out in my life was like, okay,

00:15:52.020 I know what to do. I'm going to do it. I was also more of a temperament. Like I said,

00:15:56.300 I like to get along with people. So I am going to try to make everybody happy. So if my parents

00:16:01.160 tell me, this is how we're going to dress, this is what we're going to listen to. Okay,

00:16:05.040 I'll do that. Like, I'm not going to buck up against it because I don't want to make you mad.

00:16:08.740 And I also want your approval. And so that was something I noticed this pattern of just like

00:16:13.720 trying to keep everyone happy around me. And it wasn't until I realized I can't do that. Whenever I

00:16:21.460 have differences and disagreements, whenever I stopped walking in those teachings of Bill Gothard,

00:16:26.820 immediately it shifted. And I had people mad at me for living by conviction, for not, when I started

00:16:34.240 wearing pants, it was hard. There were people who were very upset about that. And they felt like I

00:16:39.060 was walking away from the faith for marrying somebody who was in a different theological camp

00:16:44.120 than me.

00:16:44.420 So was this the, because I remember when, I don't even know if, was it paparazzi or someone who saw

00:16:51.040 you like wearing shorts or pants and it became a thing? Was it a controversy within your family or

00:16:57.920 is it more people online who expected you to always dress a certain way? And when you diverted from

00:17:04.460 that, they thought that you were no longer a believer.

00:17:07.780 Yeah, I think that there were, there were so many people who were saying things about the way I was

00:17:13.080 addressing and, um, like online, online and friends and loved ones that were more concerned because

00:17:21.200 they were kind of like, okay, you've had this conviction or so we thought for all these years.

00:17:25.800 And then once shortly after I was married, then I was not following those convictions anymore. And

00:17:33.060 some of them thought, okay, maybe it's Jeremy who's forcing you to wear pants or something, but

00:17:37.600 we're not talking about immodest, which is really important to say here because that is what it is.

00:17:43.720 You realize that, okay, that is not necessarily the biblical standard of modesty. Yes, we're

00:17:49.000 supposed to be modest, but it is not a biblical dictate that women have to be wearing dresses

00:17:53.560 or skirts. So that was the difference of conviction that people were worried about.

00:17:57.340 Totally. And this is the thing, because I went to so many, um, conferences with ATI,

00:18:02.340 Bill Gotha conferences. I went to his headquarters countless times. And I say his headquarters,

00:18:07.860 he had this place, they called it headquarters. And it was his place where he had all these

00:18:11.640 young, attractive people who were singles. And he would tell them, come work for me,

00:18:18.120 but they had to wear these certain clothes. And so they would often wear suits and all of that.

00:18:22.540 The girls would wear like, you know, the sports jackets with like the, the pencil skirts. Well, 1.00

00:18:28.360 a lot of them, if you look at that, it was interesting because the love, the standard of modesty,

00:18:33.560 like I said, a lot of these things are external. They're like, so they're like the letter of the

00:18:39.480 law. And so as long as you are wearing it below the knee, you're modest. Well, I saw so many girls 0.99

00:18:45.440 who were very modest in that setting, trying to draw attention to themselves in wrong ways,

00:18:50.600 who were wearing a skirt, or maybe they were wearing a long skirt and they were doing the same,

00:18:54.860 but their attitude of their heart was very immodest, very, um, not probably honoring to

00:19:00.760 God in the way they carried themselves. And then you'd see people in a pair of jeans and it was like,

00:19:04.260 oh yeah, you're so modest. Like, so I think I started to realize there was a distinction there.

00:19:07.940 There was a difference than I may have thought initially. And if somebody is convicted to wear

00:19:13.340 skirts only, it doesn't bother me because if that's their conviction before God, I get it. Like

00:19:19.140 you can have that conviction, but I started wanting to examine the scriptures for myself and to see

00:19:23.960 what God's word actually said. And then to walk in that was hard because like I said,

00:19:30.240 I was a people pleaser. I wanted to keep everyone happy. And so the second I wore pants or shorts,

00:19:36.020 um, immediately I had people who were very upset about that. And online there were constantly

00:19:43.500 tabloid articles, paparazzi photos that were taken. And I would be out at the grocery store,

00:19:48.040 not thinking, cause I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to run out and get groceries. And then

00:19:52.220 there would be headlines just blasting, saying things that were not true even about why I was

00:19:59.420 wearing that. Like Ginger does this despite her family. And I'm like, no, I don't. I'm just

00:20:04.360 literally running to the grocery store. And I think a lot of those things I realized I cannot be so

00:20:10.080 consumed what the critics say about me. Cause one day they're going to praise me. One day they're

00:20:13.840 going to hate me. They're going to say all the false things. So I just determined to try to stay off,

00:20:18.660 like stay offline to not look at all of those things. Um, because it was, it was really for

00:20:25.980 a while it was an identity check. I realized I was like, how much am I consumed with what

00:20:30.740 everyone around me thinks? And for a while it, it like was so hard for me to, to wrestle with.

00:20:36.680 Cause I was like, Oh no, they're going to believe this about me. Or maybe my friends are going to

00:20:40.360 read this headline and they're going to see it. And they're going to think this is true.

00:20:42.840 But then at the end of the day, I was like, no, okay, whatever I'm doing before God,

00:20:47.240 that's all that matters. I want, I want to be pleasing to God, not pleasing to everyone around

00:20:51.920 me. And if they can see that I love God, I'm honoring him in this way, then he will protect

00:20:57.220 that. If there's reputation that needs to be protected, God will do that, but I need to leave it to him.

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00:22:14.660 And that's really kind of the core of your book is trying to please God, to honor him,

00:22:20.300 to glorify him and allowing him to take care of the rest because trying to please others constantly

00:22:26.680 is a really heavy burden to carry. Like I've talked to Christians who say, you know, I just don't want 1.00

00:22:33.180 any enemies. And of course I feel that way. I don't want people mad at me. I don't want people to be

00:22:38.120 saying mean things about me. No one wants that because there's a certain level of tension there

00:22:42.700 that just doesn't feel good. But also it's a really heavy burden to try to make sure that you

00:22:49.560 don't ever have any enemies that no one ever disagrees with you. No one is ever offended by anything you do

00:22:55.580 or say that is also a really difficult yoke to carry. Yeah, I think so for sure. Especially

00:23:03.000 because like we realize, okay, yeah, we don't want people saying mean things. If I walked into a room

00:23:07.900 every day and somebody was standing there like, okay, Ginger, this is what I hate about you. All

00:23:12.680 these things, we would be beat down. Why? Because we were made for community. Community is a good thing.

00:23:18.800 And like we were designed to be in the church. We were designed to have these relationships with family

00:23:23.380 and at the end of the day, we have to realize though, okay, that has been broken because of sin.

00:23:29.560 The curse of sin came and then all of this brokenness and heartache comes. So families are often

00:23:34.720 not as close as we wish they were or there will be loved ones who betray you and they'll say mean

00:23:40.640 things about you. And at the end of the day, like you said, it's like I want to be at a place where

00:23:46.160 I'm not consumed by that. Because if my identity is first in Christ, then that is going to change

00:23:52.540 everything about how I view myself. Am I just trying to get stuff out of everyone around me? Am I trying

00:23:58.960 to find the approval that I'm seeking from others? Like I'm just desperate for their approval,

00:24:05.020 their opinion, like to be their friend, maybe because they're well-known or because they have a

00:24:09.540 lot of money. Well, those things are all selfish and they're wrong. And so we see that skewed side

00:24:14.900 of community, wanting people pleasing for selfish motives. But that's where I think the beauty of

00:24:22.460 the gospel is Christ who came to lay down his life. He was beaten. He was bruised. He took the weight of

00:24:31.660 our sin upon him. And when you think about that, it changes everything because he did not come to be

00:24:37.760 served, but he came to serve, to lay down his life, to give his life as a ransom for us. And when we have

00:24:44.680 that perspective of like, okay, no matter what other people may say or do, I want my life to be glorifying

00:24:51.820 to God. I want to be in a place where I can say, okay, no matter what I'm doing, I am going to lay down

00:24:58.440 my life for others and I'm going to serve them, not expecting anything in return.

00:25:04.460 And that leads to what I was thinking about is, okay, what is the difference between laying down

00:25:12.740 your life for other people, putting them before you, considering their interests more important

00:25:19.120 than your own and people pleasing, which is unhealthy. Yeah. I think there's such an interesting

00:25:26.560 distinction there because what I've seen too, in my own life, there've been so many negative aspects

00:25:33.600 of people pleasing that have stood out to me throughout the years, because we do have this

00:25:37.820 side of like, okay, as Christians, we are to lay down our lives, we're to serve others around us.

00:25:42.960 But I've also been in settings where it's been super interesting, like church settings,

00:25:48.000 where there are the serial servers, as I would call them. These serial servers, they're people who are

00:25:52.880 just doing everything in the church. And they're like in every children's play for Christmas,

00:25:59.600 they're, you know, serving, they're getting the communion stuff ready. They're doing all the

00:26:04.860 events and serving in nursery, cleaning the church afterwards. And it's like, wow, that's amazing.

00:26:10.900 And this, there can be that side of it where those serial servers are doing so much. Or for me,

00:26:19.080 I went to the other extreme of people pleasing where I felt like I had to isolate myself.

00:26:23.960 And this is, this is because like, whenever somebody might reach out to me, and they're like,

00:26:31.400 hey, Ginger, like, I'm in a tough spot. Well, for convenience sake, there were so many times I

00:26:37.620 wanted to say, okay, to this young college girl, I wanted to tell her like, yeah, you're gonna have

00:26:42.900 to find another day to come over because I looked around, my house was a mess. And that was the one

00:26:47.780 thing that wanted to keep me from inviting her over. Because I was like, so ashamed of how my

00:26:53.800 house looked, or my kids looked a little ragged, or maybe I did, you know, no makeup on, there's

00:26:59.200 still dish, a sink full of dishes there. And I would just, instead of inviting her over into that,

00:27:08.280 it's not like my house looks like that every day. And that's part of the people pleasing. Like I was

00:27:12.760 like, okay, well, should I invite her over? I remember one specific day, where I had even a

00:27:18.640 little, my little one was like an infant. And I felt like a mess. Postpartum life, there were toys

00:27:26.900 all over my living room. And it was just a rough day. Like it was a very rough day. And I remember I

00:27:33.780 got a phone call, this girl was like, can I come over? I'm really struggling. And in that moment,

00:27:38.520 I froze. Like, I was so embarrassed about my house. I felt like I was a mess that day. I felt

00:27:44.180 so, even spiritually, I felt like down. I was like, I haven't read my Bible probably in a couple days.

00:27:49.460 Just been up nursing at night. Like, what do I have to give this girl? And at that time,

00:27:54.260 I almost traded down. I almost didn't have her over. And because you just wanted everything to be

00:28:00.880 perfect. I wanted to keep up this, this perfect persona of like, she was in our college ministry where

00:28:06.480 my husband was preaching each week. And I thought, great, she's going to come into this mess and see

00:28:10.580 Jeremy is a terrible person because look at, look at how I can't keep the house together. And in that

00:28:17.540 moment, I, I thought about it and I was like, okay, if I say no, I'm going to go clean my house and

00:28:23.700 then I'll invite her over tomorrow or next week is really when I had time. So I was like, that's too

00:28:28.080 far away. I need to say yes. So I said, yes. I took like all of like five minutes because she was in

00:28:33.760 the area. So like it took all of five minutes to like straighten two things. She came in literally 1.00

00:28:39.340 like walked across toys to get to me on the couch with my baby. And we talked and she was in such a,

00:28:46.820 such need that day. And she was just like totally, um, disarming because she was like, thank you so

00:28:54.000 much for having me. I just really want to talk to you. And we had the best conversation. She didn't

00:28:59.260 even, I was like, do you even notice how terrible my house looks right now? And the kids cry that

00:29:05.720 you're up and down, up and down, you know, as you're talking to people. And at the end of the

00:29:09.660 day, I realized in that time, I almost traded down from something that was so important just to keep

00:29:13.720 up this perfect persona of who I thought I needed to present myself as. And in that moment though,

00:29:20.320 it actually created a deeper relationship with her because then we ended up meeting up more often

00:29:25.220 to like talk. And I wouldn't feel like, feel bad or think twice before I had her over. Um, 0.99

00:29:31.480 because then I thought in that mess, like, I, I don't want to be so consumed about what she thinks

00:29:37.420 about me that I just ignore her problems. I was thinking about, okay, what is she going to think

00:29:42.380 about me? Like, what can I get out of this? You know, instead of like, how does she need to be

00:29:46.260 served in this moment? And so I think we see those situations will come up all the time. And there's

00:29:52.160 also a time to say no, which is something that I had to learn. Cause the other side of me is I will

00:29:58.740 just say, no, like I can't do anything. I'm going to isolate myself. Cause I just, I don't know,

00:30:04.700 at times you'll feel like, yes, you just have to keep up that persona. And so for those of us who

00:30:10.380 may lean more that way, I think realizing, okay, we need to be able to say, we need to be able to say,

00:30:16.960 okay, what would you have me to do God? And that can be different for each person because in certain

00:30:21.380 seasons of life, when we have too much going on, I need to be able to say no to things. Like we

00:30:25.740 can't have host a Bible study at our house this week. Cause I need to take care of my kids and my

00:30:30.100 family, or maybe it is sacrificial the next week where I'm like, okay, I don't feel like doing this,

00:30:35.920 but this is how we're going to serve. This is how we're going to show the love of Christ to our

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00:32:01.080 Tell me more about this concept of trading down.

00:32:09.520 Yeah. It's like Jacob and Esau. So in the Bible where that story comes up, that's the first thing

00:32:15.260 that I think about because it's something that we've heard the story over and over about Jacob

00:32:21.620 and Esau and there's a birthright and they have this exchange between how there was this bowl of

00:32:32.180 soup and there was a trading down for a birthright. And I think in that setting, we can see how foolish 0.98

00:32:41.580 it seems that you would sacrifice your inheritance for a bowl of soup and give that up. But in our 0.85

00:32:49.160 normal lives, like every single day, I think I look at that like, and I've thought through it so

00:32:54.000 many times recently where I am faced every day with this reality of like, will I trade down for

00:33:00.960 what actually matters in the moment? Will I sacrifice my time and energy and will I give myself to others

00:33:11.360 or will I trade down for lesser? So like with that girl, or I have friends, mom friends who came over,

00:33:17.000 one of her kids was eating Cheerios off my floor, dried Cheerios. She crawled under my table, 0.90

00:33:22.580 grabbed dry Cheerios because I had invited her over into my messy house. And her baby was literally 0.96

00:33:28.420 eating these Cheerios and I was sitting there. I felt like my face was red. I was mortified that

00:33:33.140 she was there. It was like her second time at my house. And I thought, she's going to hate me.

00:33:38.380 She is going to hate me because she's going to think this is a terrible place to bring my kid.

00:33:41.760 I can't bring her into this mess. But I almost traded down that relationship because she wanted 0.97

00:33:47.400 to come over last minute. And she has a little one. She doesn't have family near me, us. And I was

00:33:54.500 like, okay, yeah, you can come over and like hang out. But I knew that I couldn't clean up in time.

00:34:00.220 And that's always the challenge, right? So I almost traded down that relationship, which ended up,

00:34:05.720 she's my best friend now in LA. And she just comes over all the time. We'll do projects together.

00:34:12.020 Like if my house is a wreck or if my storage room or garage that I didn't want anybody to see,

00:34:18.240 she'll come over and she'll be like, let's tackle this. We have an hour before my baby needs to go

00:34:22.400 down for now. Come over and then I'll go to her house and we'll do the same thing. But I almost

00:34:26.200 traded down that genuine relationship of like, okay, I'm going to keep up this facade of who I want you

00:34:31.740 to think I am. And I'm never going to show you my mess. I'm never going to let you into my life.

00:34:36.540 I'm not going to tell you how I'm struggling. I'm not going to tell you how you can pray for me.

00:34:40.640 And I think a lot of that can be a challenge because we realize not everyone can you open

00:34:47.480 your life up to. Not everyone can you have there because there are people who will betray that trust.

00:34:52.280 And at the end of the day, you have to realize, okay, I need to be willing to be vulnerable,

00:34:58.200 willing to be, um, my, like to be raw and to share who I truly am. Um, but then at the same time,

00:35:06.480 I think that there can also be a wisdom in being guarded in certain areas, realizing who is

00:35:12.240 trustworthy. And so that people pleasing can show up in many different ways. It can go either

00:35:17.180 direction. It can, it can go be an overshare because you feel like you constantly are trying

00:35:21.600 to connect with people and make them feel better. And so you're sharing so much, but it can also show

00:35:26.320 up and thinking, well, I never want anyone to think anything bad about me or to be mad at me.

00:35:31.340 So I'm just going to be completely closed off and shut down.

00:35:34.400 A hundred percent. Yes, for sure. And I think that I've had, um, wrestlings both ways, like

00:35:40.940 with, with my friend, I remember the first time I was walking through a really difficult time and,

00:35:47.600 um, she came over and I talked to her and it was like a godsend, you know, in that moment. And I just

00:35:55.160 thought, wow, like I almost, I almost just kept that to myself, but I was so torn up inside and

00:36:02.300 I needed a friend to talk to. And the Lord used those things too, to like draw us closer in

00:36:07.740 friendship. Um, because I was willing to share like, Hey, I'm struggling. This is a hard thing.

00:36:12.120 Like walking through this, I need prayer, not keeping up this facade of like, Oh, I'm the perfect

00:36:17.240 Christian. I read my Bible every single day for an hour. And I pray like all these things. No,

00:36:21.800 I don't have it together. I haven't read my Bible for a week. I'm, I'm so exhausted. I have an infant.

00:36:26.640 I need prayer. Please help me. You know? And those types of things I think often will bring

00:36:33.180 you closer in relationships and friendships where you would never get there. If you were just

00:36:37.780 constantly trying to protect yourself and trying to keep up that facade. And as moms, this is another

00:36:45.760 side, we have such differences in how we parent. And that was something that was hard for me to talk

00:36:52.620 about because I would just kind of like, okay, we don't do sleep training or we don't do, maybe we're

00:36:59.360 not eating as healthy as we should. And I'm kind of embarrassed about that because I try to eat

00:37:02.880 healthy, but Oh, when this family comes over, I need to serve you organic food. And let me put away

00:37:07.460 all of the snacks that maybe, maybe this has a little GMO in it. Let me just put that away. Cause I was

00:37:12.580 so like consumed with what they thought about me that I couldn't have real relationships.

00:37:18.080 So here I am trying to live, live out my life and it was draining me. It was so exhausting because I

00:37:26.240 was constantly just like, Oh, this family does this. So I need to do this when they're here. Oh,

00:37:30.540 this family does this. Okay. We need to, we need to like clean our home. We need to, um, be live a

00:37:36.060 minimalist life, whatever it is, you know? And with moms, I feel like that can quickly become

00:37:40.680 comparison and that tension can form. And then you're not actually being real and genuine

00:37:47.180 with that person. You're just creating this little facade of who you want them to think you are.

00:37:53.220 Mm-hmm. In the story of Mary and Martha, would you say that Martha was trading down by doing what she

00:38:02.700 thought needed to be done around the house, but really she was ignoring the true opportunity

00:38:10.680 there. The most important thing with Jesus. Yes. Jesus there for sure. I think that that is,

00:38:17.180 that is such a beautiful picture that we see in scripture. Um, because it's a reminder to all of

00:38:23.960 us that we don't want to trade down from that, that greater thing. And I think that, um, those

00:38:30.680 relationships and that time that you can't get back, that is something that time with Jesus that

00:38:36.520 Martha just missed out on. Like she traded down for that, um, just to be busy, just constantly 1.00

00:38:42.760 going. And I think that's what we see, like serial service, people who are just doing so much in the

00:38:46.240 church. Well, you may be missing out on genuine relationships. Maybe you need to slow down. Maybe

00:38:50.220 you need to actually sit in on a couple of church services instead of serving every church service,

00:38:55.240 because maybe your soul's suffering. Maybe you're keeping up this facade for everybody else thinking,

00:38:59.520 wow, she's serving everyone in the church. She's doing all of this. Well, maybe you need to stop.

00:39:03.920 Maybe you need to soak in some of that, go to a Bible study, connect in a small group. Um, because

00:39:08.980 a lot of that, it will be approval of men, but then, you know, in yourself, there's a time to serve.

00:39:16.100 There's a time to learn to, and sit down and to enjoy that. So yeah, for sure.

00:39:22.140 I'm realizing as you're talking that ironically people pleasing is really more self-centered that

00:39:29.720 even if you think that you're just trying to make other people happy. Well, I'm just serving. I'm

00:39:35.020 just doing this. I'm just cleaning up my house. I'm constantly doing these things because I care

00:39:39.440 so much about other people. But when I'm just examining my own heart, because I'm certainly

00:39:44.020 more of the person that leans in the direction of, um, like close, closed off. Like I, I won't want to

00:39:52.240 connect or have people over unless things like look and sound and seem like I've got it together.

00:39:59.540 And when I think about my motivations behind that, is it really because I'm so scared that

00:40:05.080 that person's going to be offended or hurt by the crumbs on the floor? No, it's really about me.

00:40:10.280 It's really about, I want them to perceive me in a certain way. So like we could say that it is

00:40:16.860 idolatry of people, but at the end of the day, at least for myself, when I struggle with people

00:40:21.880 pleasing, it's really idolatry of self or idolatry of what I want people to think that I am. And it

00:40:29.520 seems to me as you're explaining what people pleasing is, that that kind of is whether you

00:40:34.240 swing in one direction or the other, like the common motivation, it's really more about the self

00:40:40.160 than it is about truly serving other people. Exactly. Yeah. The self-centered selfishness,

00:40:46.860 in pride that, that lies there in our hearts, because it is, it is that, that understanding

00:40:54.480 of like, okay, we want to have true community, want to have friendships. Yes, we're made for that.

00:40:59.120 But I think the expectation that we set for ourselves in that standard, that's so high,

00:41:04.500 we want to keep it up. It is something that can really cripple us and expose our true heart.

00:41:11.760 Like you said, behind it, am I loving this person well by keeping them out? Or should I show the

00:41:18.600 love of Christ, even when I don't feel like it, even when my house is a mess and don't get me wrong.

00:41:23.680 I love a clean house. Jeremy knows like I, I will clean, clean, clean, clean, clean. Cause I cannot

00:41:29.780 stand clutter. I cannot stand mess. Yeah. So my house is not like, I'm not just living in squalor.

00:41:34.740 You might think that when you walk in sometimes, but it's, it's not that we're, we're careless. We

00:41:41.340 don't care. We throw it all out. And I don't care when people come over, they're going to walk into

00:41:45.600 my mess. Well, you know, sometimes you do need to clean up. And like, if you're expecting somebody,

00:41:50.120 yeah, clean up your house, put on a candle, make it look pretty or essential oils, you know?

00:41:56.140 So let's just say that depending on how crunchy you are. Right. Right. Um, but I think with that,

00:42:01.980 like there is a certain level of realizing, okay, I'm going to do my best. I'm going to try to

00:42:07.640 show others that I care, um, and then leave the rest up to God and your reputation.

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00:43:55.120 I was just talking to someone, um, her name is Abby and she wrote a cookbook and we had like this

00:44:00.660 hospitality special that, uh, that we hosted together. I was really learning from her and I

00:44:07.620 love what she says just about the heart behind hospitality. And it sounds a lot like what you're

00:44:13.020 saying that there shouldn't be an emphasis when we're thinking about any kind of service to other

00:44:18.320 people, whether it's opening our home or serving someone in another way. It's really not about the

00:44:23.720 presentation or perfection. There's nothing wrong with presentation and with caring, but it really

00:44:28.920 is about the heart of invitation that Jesus displays so well in scripture. And even just like

00:44:37.480 the symbol of the table and dining and feasting and all of these things, it can be great to put

00:44:43.040 effort behind that and to care. And maybe that's something that you're naturally good at. And so

00:44:47.500 you're using that excellence to serve other people and to glorify God. But she also talks about in the

00:44:53.500 very beginning of her, you know, her hospitality endeavor, she was a really bad cook and she wasn't 1.00

00:44:59.880 good at it. And she was embarrassed to invite people over. And yet the Lord kept on adding people

00:45:05.200 to her table every week. And this was back when she was just single. And that was really convicting

00:45:10.220 to me because I I'm not a natural. I am definitely not natural at that kind of stuff. So I feel like

00:45:17.040 I have to work hard at it. I love having people in my house, but I'm not a good cook either. Yeah.

00:45:21.320 And so it is like almost I will defeat myself before I start. But again, it's self motivated

00:45:26.920 because it's not that, oh, I'm afraid I'm my food is going to poison those people. It's like,

00:45:31.620 yeah, I don't want them to think it's not. I'm not perfect gourmet. Yes. Not amazing.

00:45:36.640 In that realm. Yes. So there is such a there's such a balance between yeah, putting effort in when

00:45:41.720 it's appropriate and good to do so. But also letting things be knowing that the perfection

00:45:47.640 of the presentation is not the point if you're really serving people. Yeah, for sure. I think

00:45:53.760 we've all been at we've all been at places where it's like, okay, you'll go to a place I was just

00:45:59.460 thinking of I think it's a proverb. And I can't even remember the full thing. I'm the worst at like

00:46:04.560 references and all of that. But like, better is a dinner of herbs where love is and a stalled ox and

00:46:10.180 hatred there. Like just thinking of that, that's King James, because all my things are all memorized

00:46:14.320 in King James. Yes. But just thinking about that, like you can have the best layout, you can have the

00:46:20.720 best platter. And you can be at a place that's very rough. I've been at a meal that was super fancy

00:46:26.440 before. And it was like people were just at each other. Well, the meal wasn't enjoyable. It was

00:46:31.940 fancy. It looked nice, but you just wanted to leave. And then you go to somebody's house and they serve

00:46:36.900 you like a, let's just say like a casserole, right? And there's all the stuff in there. You don't know

00:46:42.960 what's in there. It's a little scary at times. But you eat that and it's like you're enjoying sweet

00:46:47.960 fellowship. And you don't think twice because the setting is different. There's love. There's excitement

00:46:54.080 in your fellowshipping. You go away blessed. And I think that often we forget that because it does

00:47:00.020 seem like you have to have it all together. But the hospitality of like even having college students

00:47:05.480 since we're in college ministry, like having college students in our house all the time,

00:47:09.140 they'll come in and just, you know, like at unique times, like they'll say, Hey, can we stop by? It's

00:47:14.960 like later at night. And sometimes we discard that because it's family time. But other times it's like,

00:47:19.120 yeah, stop by. And so many times you can't have everything all together, but you're like, Hey,

00:47:23.760 would you like a snack or something? And I'm like, what do I have in my cabinet? I don't even know

00:47:27.460 you pull out something. And, um, I think those are some of the sweetest moments that we've had

00:47:32.500 is just like those on the fly. Like, okay, I'm going to have you come and we're going to have this,

00:47:36.920 this time together and they'll stay for a couple hours and chat. And it's like the sweetest thing.

00:47:41.840 And we look forward to that and you can't recreate it. You can't like have these moments that you plan out,

00:47:47.920 but when you let them happen and you do open up your home and you do have those times where

00:47:52.620 you're just, you're, you know, you're in a t-shirt and shorts, no makeup. And I'm like,

00:47:58.840 okay, I feel like a big mess right now, but come on over. Yeah. Those things are some of the sweetest

00:48:03.700 times that you'll experience. So for the person who is listening or watching, they're like, okay,

00:48:09.140 yeah, I struggle with people pleasing, but how do I stop? They know these ideas. I'm supposed to focus

00:48:16.320 on the Lord. I'm not supposed to focus on myself and over-focus on other people. Like,

00:48:20.900 what are some practical steps that they can take or things that they can read or think about or do

00:48:26.300 to try to rid themselves of this burden? Because it really is a heavy burden for sure. Yeah. I think

00:48:32.700 it's interesting because as I looked at it, um, it's interesting that the solution, the key to people

00:48:39.360 pleasing is people pleasing, which sounds so crazy. It's like the cure to a snake bite. Like we have tons

00:48:46.360 of copperheads in our area and the cure to that is the antivetum of a copperhead. That's what's going

00:48:51.960 to cure your snake bite. Um, but the same way here is we have to realize there's good people pleasing,

00:48:56.600 bad people pleasing. And, um, the negative side of that, the bad people pleasing is when we are so

00:49:03.360 desperately craving somebody's, um, what they can give to us. Like, what can I get from you? We need

00:49:09.420 to stop asking that question. What can I get out of you? Are you a person of status? Do you have money

00:49:14.300 for me? Um, how are you going to serve me at church? Like when you walk into church, like,

00:49:18.560 what are you thinking? Are you thinking how, what can I get out of this? Well, you're going to live

00:49:22.520 a miserable existence because you are constantly looking for others to approve of you or for them

00:49:28.560 to give to you. And we need to start loving and serving others, asking for nothing in return when

00:49:36.700 we're willing to give of ourselves, of our time, our energy, our resources, and to be a listening ear

00:49:44.140 for someone to invite somebody into our crumb filled house. You know, then those are the things

00:49:50.880 that we can see and say, okay, I want to seek, seek to serve others as Christ did laying down his

00:49:57.440 life. And that will change everything because when we're no longer focused on what that person thinks

00:50:04.880 of me, well, I can serve them. And if they spit in my face because they, they hate how I did that.

00:50:10.660 Well, I want to do this as unto God, not unto them, not unto men. Um, not like in Ephesians six,

00:50:19.180 I think verses five through eight or so it's talking about not doing things with, um, eye service as

00:50:27.080 people pleasers, but doing it as unto God. I think that that will change everything because like I said,

00:50:33.460 we're, we are so consumed with what people think about us. Like I said, community is good.

00:50:39.180 We were designed for it. But at the end of the day, if that's our end all, if that's where we're

00:50:45.020 going to live and die is upon somebody else's opinion of us, then that is sinful and that is

00:50:51.960 wrong. And so the encouragement we can take is that when we do that, it will set us free to love and

00:50:57.500 serve others. Well, not from a toxic place of trying to gain from them, what we are craving the most

00:51:03.900 that we can only get from God, but finding our approval and identity and God, then we can go

00:51:09.080 out to love and serve others freely from a place of overflow and joy, not trying to like get something

00:51:16.080 from them. Yeah. That applies to what we do and also applies to the things we say. I think fear of

00:51:22.940 man either compels us to say things that aren't true or that we don't believe or compels us to stay

00:51:28.940 silent about things that are true and that we do believe. And I think in both areas, we have to

00:51:36.600 consider how Jesus was treated, how the apostles were treated, how Stephen was treated. I mean,

00:51:43.260 Jesus obviously was full of grace and truth. God is love. So he was, is the most loving everything

00:51:51.780 he said and did, he did from a place of profound love. Stephen was also full of grace and yet he

00:52:00.820 was stoned to death after saying something that was true, doing the most loving thing he could

00:52:04.660 possibly could, which was sharing the gospel with people who didn't want to hear it because he loved

00:52:09.660 them. And did they say, wow, like you're really compelling and charismatic. Thank you for that. No,

00:52:15.000 but thank you. No, they were so angry that they killed him. And obviously they crucified Jesus.

00:52:20.740 And I think a lot of us think that if we are nicer than God, or if we are more winsome and

00:52:27.580 persuasive than God and the apostles and Paul, then maybe we can be liked by the world and be accepted

00:52:35.620 by the church. Maybe we will be like the first Christians who are just accepted by everyone. I mean,

00:52:40.640 I fall into that. Everyone falls into that. But when you shift your perspective, like you just

00:52:46.500 said to, okay, what glorifies God most in this moment? Some people will love it. Some people

00:52:52.480 will hate it. And that doesn't matter. That frees us so much to simply live in the truth, not living a

00:52:59.720 lie, as you said, and also to just speak what is true in the right moment. For sure. A hundred percent.

00:53:05.940 I'm so glad you brought that up too, because that is something that we know that the world

00:53:10.180 will hate us because they hated Christ. And that is a good reminder too, because it is so easy to

00:53:16.060 cower in fear, to not want to speak up, to not want to share the truth. And I think that that's just

00:53:22.080 another aspect of people pleasing. I'm so glad you mentioned. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So it comes out

00:53:28.520 January 13th. And so by the time this comes out, you will actually be further along than 24 weeks,

00:53:34.880 this episode. And I'm guessing people can get the book. Yes. I believe it's January 14th. The book

00:53:40.600 comes out the 14th, but if they wanted to pre-order it today, they could. Yes. You can

00:53:44.640 pre-order it wherever books are sold. It's called People Pleaser. And so, yeah. And if you go ahead

00:53:51.020 and pre-order it on Amazon today, then you can, you might even be able to get it tomorrow. Sometimes

00:53:55.820 that happens. Yes, for sure. Or you can definitely get it soon and be one of the first people to read

00:54:01.640 it. Well, thank you so much, Ginger. I just love your story and I love your boldness.

00:54:05.780 And I know this is going to bless so many people. Thank you. Thank you, Allie.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - January 13, 2025

Ep 1121 ｜ Jinger Duggar Vuolo on Escaping People-Pleasing & Setting Biblical Boundaries

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