Ep 113 ｜ Virgil Walker — Abortion Exceptions？
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Summary
Virgil Walker of the Just Thinking Podcast joins Allie to discuss the Alabama legislation allowing abortion up to 20 weeks if a woman is a victim of rape or incest, and how Christians should view the issue of rape and incest.
Transcript
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Hey guys, happy Friday. Welcome to the podcast. Today we are going to talk to my friend Virgil
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Walker of the Just Thinking podcast. You have probably heard of Just Thinking if you've been
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listening to either their podcast or my podcast for a little bit. I had Daryl Harrison, who is
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the co-host of Just Thinking. A few weeks ago, we talked about wokeness in the church and Virgil
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Walker. His expertise is abortion. He does a lot for the pro-life cause. And so we're going to talk
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about the legislation in Georgia and Alabama, this non-exception or this lack of exception in the
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Alabama legislation for rape or incest, how we as Christians should view that, and really what we
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should be doing on the front lines of the pro-life cause. Virgil, thanks so much for joining me.
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Thank you for having me, Allie. Yeah. First, if you could just tell everyone who might not be
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familiar who you are, what you do, and why you care so much about this issue of abortion.
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Yeah. Well, I'm Virgil Walker, and I'm part and parcel of the Just Thinking podcast with Daryl
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Harrison, the famed Daryl Harrison, Daryl Dangerous Harrison. You've interviewed him
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on your podcast, and so I work side-by-side with him. I do a lot in the area of abortion. I've been
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involved in abortion at the abortion mill for the last seven years or so, six or seven years,
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doing sidewalk ministry and the like, and just an advocate of the pro-life position.
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Okay. I gotcha. And you work for a church, correct?
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Correct. Correct. Here in the Omaha area, absolutely.
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Okay. I gotcha. So there's a lot of conversation going on about abortion right now. And this is
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something that you and I share this passion for, the pro-life cause. I've heard you say before that
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you are more of an abolitionist than a pro-lifer. So what do you mean by that?
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Yeah. Definitely more of an abolitionist. I think that for the most part, I think the pro-lifers get
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it right. But I think oftentimes we're involved in half measures or we're willing to cede ground
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on the issue of incest and rape. I mean, you see that in the conversation. As I've been talking,
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even over the course of the last few days with regard to this particular issue, what you find
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is that most who argue the pro-life position have ceded the issue of rape and incest. I mean,
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it's almost as if they want to, they want to steer clear of those two areas in the way of exception.
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And what my thought is, it is, it's inconsistent. It's really inconsistent from a standpoint of a
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biblical worldview. You know, the rape and incest thing has been brought up a lot this week because
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of the Alabama legislation, the Georgia legislation, it made an exception for rape and incest. It said,
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okay, a woman can still get an abortion up to 20 weeks in Georgia if she is a victim of rape or if
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this is a consequence of incest. A lot of more, a lot of pro-lifers were probably a little bit more
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comfortable with that, like you said. But Alabama says, sorry, no exceptions. And you see a lot of
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people who call themselves pro-life saying, well, well, well, that's a little too far. So can you tell me
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what you would say or how you would kind of confront that kind of caveat?
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Yeah. I think, again, we have adopted, rather than holding to a biblical worldview of the sovereignty
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of God and that He is the one who is the giver of life, we've decided that we're going to see that.
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We're going to put that aside and adopt a secular view where we've elevated our feelings and emotions.
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And again, I don't say that in a way to minimize a woman who's been traumatized by the issue of rape.
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I think that's a horrific situation. And what we need to do with regard to the issue are to separate
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the two things. One, we've got to separate the issue of the rape and look at that differently.
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We've conflated the issue of the rape and the life of the child. We've conflated both issues and have
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made the decision that they should both be treated in the same manner rather than recognizing that
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they're two separate issues. The rapist, that situation needs to be adjudicated from a standpoint.
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I love what your friend Ben Shapiro says, either castrated and or killed. Once that rapist has been
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proven guilty, I think the worst harm should be done to that individual. But with regard to the life of
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the child, we need to hold to a biblical worldview that says that the child is an image bearer of God
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and is worthy of distinct value, dignity, and worth. And rather than adopting the ideas that the
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world has given us with regard to feelings and emotion, we need to stop for just a moment,
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recognize the value of the child, and realize the child has done nothing wrong deserving of death.
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And I also think we need to think about how to amplify the culture that says that this is
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shameful, that carrying a child born out of rape is a shameful situation. We need to recognize the
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heroic nature of a woman who's gone through that difficult process and makes the decision to carry
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a child to term. I was talking with a friend who mentioned the fact that we often quote Romans 8,
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28, that God has given us all things to work together for His good, right? When we think about
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that, most Christians who are pro-lifers would agree with the fact that we know that all things work
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together for the good of them that love God and are called according to His purpose, except for in
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the instance of incest and rape. Those are situations where we've got to realize the sovereignty of God.
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He is the giver of life. And really think through that process, providing all the support necessary
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for a woman so that she can bear the child and either make the choice of giving the child up for
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adoption or keeping the child as a result. Is there anything that Christians need to be doing? I know
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that you mentioned obviously sticking up for the personhood of the individual from the point of
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conception, no matter the situation surrounding the conception of the child. Also taking care of
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these moms, making sure that they have the real options that are available. Of course, keeping the
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child, raising the child, adoption, whatever it is. Is there anything else Christians can be doing as far
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as the adoption process? We hear a lot. Adoption is too expensive. The foster care system is terrible.
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We hear this as an excuse kind of from the pro-choice side. Is there anything Christians can be doing in
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those realms to make sure that truly it is as easy as it possibly can be for a woman to give birth to
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a child and make sure that child is in a good home? Yeah, there are a lot of things that churches in
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particular, believers can do to be supportive. I shared with you earlier, I do sidewalk ministry at
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an abortion clinic. When I'm there, it is incredibly important to know that I've got an entire church
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community around me that I can call at a moment's notice if something were to happen right there at
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the location. Everything from providing a place to stay for that woman if she's in an abusive
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situation, to providing food, to providing clothing, to providing every single need that she might have
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up and into and through adoption. I think two thoughts. One is often pro-choicers try to use
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the excuse that they can murder a child in the womb on the basis of the fact that someone's not
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adopting that child. And that's a flawed argument. That's a false statement. That life is not a value
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whether or not someone desires it or not. Secondly, Christians can do more. We often make
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the claim that we are pro-life and yet all we do in a way of advocating that position is every four
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years voting for the person who claims that they are going to be more pro-life than not. And we've
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got to step up to do more. I'm thankful that I'm in a place and a space where there is that level of
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support at the point of need. And we've got to look for ways to advocate, look for ways to be
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uncomfortable, uh, where we can be in an effort to help these women who are really going through
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some very difficult times. So can you offer any advice to the man or the woman who doesn't,
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they don't know where to start. They, they don't know if there are any pregnancy clinics in their
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area. They would love to have their church be involved in a pro-life ministry, but maybe their
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church isn't. How did they start doing something like you're doing or just to start making that
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connection between mothers in crisis and whatever sphere they're currently involved in?
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Yeah. I completely appreciate the question that you asked because I remember at the point at which
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I got interested in this issue, began to educate myself. My first thought was, where do I go? Like
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I had no, no one to show me what it looked like to be on the sidewalk at an abortion clinic. And
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while some people are willing to do that, others are not, there's all, there's all kinds of,
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of pregnancy advocacy places in town where I live. There's, there's a sure, uh, women's clinic. We do,
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they do a lot of great work. So you've got to find where, where there are organizations who are
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already doing the work, where you can plug in, where you can be a part of. I think those kinds
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of things are, are definitely important. We've got to seek those out and do more than simply every
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four years vote for the, the, the, the person that we think is going to advocate for our position.
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I'm, I'm even concerned. And, and, uh, Ali, I wanted to throw something back to you really quickly,
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if I could, I, I, I'm, I'm concerned about, about where things go from here with regard to the
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Supreme court. We know that this decision that's happened in Georgia was, was designed for the
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purpose of getting thrown back into, uh, you know, the Supreme court to challenge Roe v. Wade. You
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know, I, I don't, I don't know about you. I don't know that I have the confidence to believe that,
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that things will be overturned. And I really think that most conservatives will be reeling
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at that point. If, if indeed, you know, Roe v. Wade is not overturned based upon this case,
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you, you have any thoughts about that? I would say considering how Kavanaugh has ruled on a few
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other cases, not even involving Planned Parenthood or abortion. It looks like he's leaning further to
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the left than a lot of us had hoped. Now he might call himself personally pro-life. We know that he's
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Catholic. A lot of the Catholic community considers themselves pro-life, but sometimes you have some
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cognitive dissonance where people say, well, I'm personally pro-life, but I don't want to limit the
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rights of other people. I don't know if Kavanaugh falls into that camp. And so judging by Kavanaugh,
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uh, I, I don't think that we are going to get the ruling on Roe v. Wade that we want. Now I could
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psychoanalyze Kavanaugh and say, maybe it's because he wants to show the left who hated him so much
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that he's really not going to do all the terrible things that he said that, or that they said he was
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going to do. I'm not sure his motives behind that. And I can't predict necessarily what's going to
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happen. I was more optimistic just at the thought of thinking, okay, we've got a, like you said, a more
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pro-life than not, or a more pro-life than a Hillary Clinton president. And so we've got a few Supreme
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court vacancies up for grabs. And so it's a possibility that this could happen, but unfortunately,
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unfortunately, probably people like Kavanaugh and, and maybe, uh, some other conservative
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justices too. I'm just not sure have bought into this lie that, you know, being all the way pro-life
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is too extreme. It's too extreme. And maybe Planned Parenthood does do some good things and
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it may be abortion in some cases is really compassionate. I like what you are saying
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about being an abolitionist. I think too many people are scared to really say that, including
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people in power. Do you agree? I completely agree. In fact, most of the conversations that I've had
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since this legislation got enacted with Christians is, yeah, I'm pro-life, but I mean, that, that's,
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it's, in fact, I mean, you, you could, you could say this, this is a new, I think this issue is
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bringing up even the, the, the clarity of thought, or at least an opportunity for people to begin
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thinking about their, their true position. And what I'm running into is this new category of
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Christian calling themselves pro-life, but, and, and it's a shame because they're looking at it from
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a, I believe from a secular perspective, rather than from a consistently biblical worldview, as we
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talked about being image bearers of God. I think we've got to look at that. We've got to examine that
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and even be willing to say how much of that was taught to us by our own quote unquote pro-life
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movement. That's why I've, I've distanced myself a bit from saying I'm pro-life to telling people
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I'm an abolitionist. While I recognize that that has its own connotation to it, because there's a
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group out there and, and doing some different things that I disagree with. I do agree from a
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standpoint of, we need to be all about the abolition of abortion. And that means not just
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legislatively, but also in creating a culture of life to make, I've heard this phrase before,
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and I really like it, making abortion unthinkable or as unthinkable as possible. There's
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always going to be evil in the world. There's always going to be people that insist upon killing
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their child for whatever desperate, you know, reason they feel like they have. That's always
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going to exist. No law can outlaw all kinds or every single kind of evil, but legislatively,
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and also in what you're doing and what a lot of people are doing is making sure these women are
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cared for. I think the biggest myth that we hear from pro-choicers is that people who don't like
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abortion are only pro what they call forced birth, that we're only for birthing the child. And then
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we want to abandon the child. And they usually say that's because we don't agree with their
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government programs or we don't agree with all the stuff that, that they believe the government
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should be doing. So we must not really be pro-life. I think I know what you're going to say,
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but what do you say in response to that? Well, one, that there's never justified reason to end
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the life of a child. First of all, never justified reason. But more times than not, I mean,
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the people that I know who care the most in those instances and who are willing to care are not folks
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advocating for, for the death of a child in the womb. It's those of us who are believers,
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who are advocating for life, who are willing to help, who are reaching out and trying to do
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more than, you know, than, than others to see a child taken care of. One of the things that's been
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interesting to me as well, in addition to, to, to the rhetoric is the, the lack of, of, of the arguments
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that are being made from the other side. I mean, they, they just, they have no substance to them
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whatsoever. They, they are either ad hominem attacks or genetic fallacies rather than anything
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substantive that really anchor our position. Like if I'm going to argue with someone, I'm going to at
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least want to make sure that I'm, I'm properly categorizing what they believe. I'm properly
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articulating what they believe. And none of them understand that at the end of the day, the argument
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that we're, that we're positing is this is a human life and, and we need to treat the human life in
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the womb in the same way that we would treat a human life at any other stage of development. No one
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seems to get that on the other side. And so they're coming up. And I know you saw that the argument
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about these white men who advocated this position. I wondered your thoughts about that as well.
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Yeah. Well, neither of us are white men and we are, we are having this conversation and I think
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it's just a way you said so many good things there. And one of the things that I just wonder,
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and you don't want to assume always bad motives on the other, on the, on the side of the people
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that you are disagreeing with. It's I think particularly hard to do that with abortion,
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just because the other side, the reality that they're advocating for, whether they know it or
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not is so grotesque and is so black and white, uh, that it's really difficult not to assume bad
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motives. But even if we were to give the benefit of the doubt to most people, I think there are a lot
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of people on the pro-choice side that do realize the argument that we're making that do understand
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the argument that we're making, but, but they know that if they do the way that you said, if they do
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say, I understand what you're saying, Virgil or Ali, that this is a human being, that this is just an
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early stage of development, but I still think it's okay to kill a human being that makes their
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arguments sound really bad and they know that that is very brutal. And most of them, what they're just
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not willing to verbalize that because it hurts their conscience too much, which should tell you
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something about the human heart. But I think it makes them feel better. It puts a balm on their guilt
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or shame to say, well, this is not a human being. This is not a person. Um, it, it just reminds me
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the kind of dehumanizing language that we hear from them to justify their arguments. It reminds me so
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much of the arguments made for slavery. And I wonder if you agree with that since you call yourself an
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abolitionist. Absolutely. I mean, the, the, the same arguments that are being posited today, uh, are the
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same ones that were, that were posited in during the time of slavery. It's the devaluing of, of a human
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being who's created in God's image. Uh, that, the, the, the arguments today are my body, my choice.
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Uh, the arguments back then were, were my slave, my property. Um, and so those are the same, those are
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the same arguments that, that are, that were being posited then that are being posited now. And the,
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the, the, the interesting thing is, like you said, they, they recognize that in the public arena,
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in, in social media, in, in media in particular, their arguments sound very, very harsh. They,
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and, and they recognize those don't hit the ear very well. Uh, but what's interesting Allie is at
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the abortion clinic, these women are making those arguments. Uh, these women walking into these
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abortion clinics. I was there this past mother's day weekend. They don't care. They recognize this is a
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human life. I'm calling out to them and letting them know, Hey, we're here to help you. We're here
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because we care about you. You don't have to end the life of your child. You know, I know you're
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doing this to cover, uh, perhaps cover sin in, in, in, in an area of your life, but man, Christ died
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for your sins. There's no reason for that. There's, we're here to help you. We love you. These women
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flip me off. They'll, they'll tell me they know it's a human being and walk right into the abortion
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clinic. And so it's, it's a different thing at the, at the point of, uh, you know, where, where rubber
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meets the road, so to speak. But I recognize that, you know, in the, in the, you know, in the area of
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social media and the area of media in general, uh, those arguments don't play well, but they
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do, they do coincide with the same arguments that were being had during the time of slavery.
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And what you obviously realized just from that short story that you just told me and what
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I think a lot of Christians maybe sometimes forget or don't want to think about because
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it's just another layer of discomfort. But the answer to this essentially and ultimately
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is the gospel of Jesus Christ, because you, you mentioned that these women, these women
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get very angry when you mentioned sin or Jesus or what they're doing. And you just look at either
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Romans one, or you look at Ephesians four that says they are darkened in their understanding.
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Why? Because they don't know God. It says they are, uh, callous. They are, uh, ignorant in their
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hardness of heart. And when I think about so many people that, uh, are adamantly pro abortion
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or pro what they call pro choice, it, it, uh, Ephesians four rings, uh, so true that it is
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callousness, it's ignorance, it's darkness, it's a hardness of heart. And what can soften all
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of those things? Only Jesus Christ. That is it. And I think a lot of Christians, um, even well-intentioned
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Christians, they don't want to believe that that is the ultimate answer because again, sharing the
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gospel for a lot of people feels very awkward. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think I, one, you're,
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you're spot on with that too. I think we're going to come face to face with that. If indeed,
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uh, the, the, the Roe v. Wade decision, you know, goes the wrong way. Let's say this goes to the
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Supreme court, um, and, and, and, you know, Roe v. Wade's not turned around. Uh, I know that there'll
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be people continuing to, to, to advocate for that. I think that, I think a lot of Christians will be
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disheartened, uh, by that, but at the end of the day, I think you, you landed spot on it, uh, which
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is the other day I was listening to, to one of your relatable, uh, podcasts where, where you quoted
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from Romans 1 18, you walked us through 28 through 32, and you talked about all the things that are in
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the heart of, of mankind and that we not only agree with those things, we give hearty approval to
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those that do. And I think when, when you look at that reality in, even in the life of, of believers
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where we've allowed some issues around this abortion to cloud our mind, rather than holding
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to a biblical worldview, there, there will be a cost. And ultimately at the end of the day, we've got to
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get back to the proclamation of the gospel. At the end of the day, the proclamation of the gospel
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that changes the hearts of the human condition is what will, what will turn this around.
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Right. One thing that I did want to get your insight on, I think I've heard you talk about
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this, uh, before, but how abortion, this is switching gears just a little bit, but how
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abortion disproportionately, uh, affects impoverished communities, minority communities, and in
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particular, the black community and how that point seems to be completely ignored by the
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side that is so quick in every other situation to call out racism.
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Right, right. Well, I think between you and I, you being a female, me being a black male, we
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can put our intersectionality points together and maybe speak with a little bit of authority.
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On this, on this particular issue. And, and that is the reality that, that when I'm at
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the abortion clinic, one of the things that I think is interesting or surprising, at least
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for, for women who are driving in disproportionately in Nebraska, where I'm from, uh, blacks represent
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6% of the population, but represent about 28% of abortions that are taking place in the state
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disproportionately affecting us. And in other areas, it's even worse. Uh, you, you, you've, uh,
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I've heard you talk about the fact that in New York, uh, that there, there are more, more
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black babies who are murdered in the womb than are actually born. We know that statistic
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well, but it disproportionately affects black communities. And if, if those who, who really
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believe that black lives do matter, they would find themselves on the front lines at abortion
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clinics to ensure that the black genocide that is taking place stops immediately. And I think
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women who come to the abortion clinic are often shocked or surprised to see a black male there
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at the clinic. And, and so I, I do feel at times that I have an extra opportunity to share
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with them. Hey, black lives do matter. If you want to use that language, if you want to use
00:23:47.800
that mantra from your secular worldview, if black lives matter, they should matter today and
00:23:52.140
it should keep you from aborting your child. And, uh, and every time they hear that mantra,
00:23:57.280
I want them to remember if they go through with that abortion on that day, they weren't
00:24:01.260
thinking that that black life mattered much. Now there's definitely forgiveness, uh, through
00:24:06.140
Jesus Christ and by way of repentance of sin and placing faithful faith in him. Uh, but I,
00:24:11.980
but I want them to, to recognize that, acknowledge that, and to keep them from walking into the
00:24:16.820
evil, uh, that they're about to do as they murder their child in the womb.
00:24:20.500
Well, I think that this fight is just beginning, um, for unborn lives. And if we think that,
00:24:30.540
if we think I, and I do agree that in some ways the pro-life cause has gained a lot of ground and we
00:24:37.380
have done wonderful things or the abolitionist cause against abortion has done wonderful things.
00:24:43.100
And God has given us so much grace and so much power and so much discernment in this, but it is
00:24:50.720
also easy to look at the arguments from the other side, to look at the things going on in particular
00:24:55.840
states like New York and be scared and be disheartened. And just for me, there's no other
00:25:02.040
issue that makes me just want to pull my hair out and say, what, how the heck can people have this
00:25:09.900
mentality? Where in the world are we going? So if you could just give some advice, some encouragement
00:25:17.560
to people who they might be happy about the Georgia and Alabama legislation, but they're feeling
00:25:23.800
scared, nervous, confused, helpless, out of control. Um, they want to do something for unborn babies and
00:25:31.020
women. They don't know what, and they don't know if anything is going to be fruitful. Can you just give
00:25:35.420
some, uh, a charge to them maybe? Yeah. Yeah. What you said reminds me of when I first kind of got into
00:25:41.180
this about six or seven years ago, uh, as the issue began to get real to me and I felt like I've got to do
00:25:49.720
something, but had no idea what to do. Um, man, I began to seek out people who, who knew more than I did
00:25:56.980
about the issue, who understood the issue well, and, and gave examples of how to, how to go about fighting, uh,
00:26:03.660
this particular issue, whether that means, uh, finding someone who's at an abortion clinic, doing a sidewalk
00:26:08.520
ministry, whether that's at, at an advocacy clinic, uh, where you could spend time there with those
00:26:14.720
folks, whether it's, whether it's praying. Oftentimes I'll, I'll post on Facebook when I'm headed out to
00:26:19.160
the abortion clinic and I'll just ask people to pray for me. And, and, uh, because again, I recognize
00:26:25.480
that in those spaces and places at the end of the day, and this is the one thing that all of us need to
00:26:30.100
remember, and that is God is sovereign. And that if, if he wanted to wipe things out tomorrow, he would
00:26:36.900
indeed do it. And we pray earnestly, uh, for him to do just that. In the meantime, we have to be
00:26:43.620
faithful to, to telling truth, to sharing that truth and love and operating from a standpoint of
00:26:50.040
the absolute proclamation of the gospel, which is what, what, what, what's required, uh, to see hearts
00:26:55.400
changed and transformed and folks receive repentance, uh, faith in Christ and, and follow him all the days
00:27:02.220
of their life. Amen. Thank you so much for all of your insight and thank you for what you do and for
00:27:08.180
leading by example. And I know that you don't take credit for any of it and that it's all the Holy
00:27:14.260
Spirit through you, but thank you anyway, uh, for that. And of course, thank the Lord for what he's
00:27:20.920
doing through you and what he's doing through that ministry and how many lives have been changed for
00:27:25.760
generations to come. So I just, I just want you to know that you are appreciated.
00:27:30.920
Oh, thank you for having me. So appreciate it a bunch. Appreciate you, uh, with Daryl and myself
00:27:37.040
with just thinking, and we definitely want to wish you all the best as you get ready to have a brand
00:27:42.080
new baby. We'll definitely be praying for you and looking forward to when you, I know you're going to
00:27:46.600
take a little bit of a hiatus break. Uh, we'll definitely miss you and look forward to when you get
00:27:50.920
back. We, uh, we just know that we watch you follow you and our big fans. Okay. Thank you so
00:27:55.560
much. And if you will just tell everyone real fast, if you'll just tell everyone where they can
00:28:00.500
find a just thinking or where they can find you, if you want them to follow you on social media or
00:28:05.280
wherever you want to direct them. Well, you can, you can catch me on Twitter, Virgil W L K R. So
00:28:11.500
Virgil spelled V I R G I L W L K R Omaha, which is kind of my moniker on the just thinking, uh, podcast.
00:28:19.100
Uh, you can find just thinking wherever you, wherever you download your podcasts on,
00:28:23.000
on Apple or iTunes and or Android. And so, yeah, I would love to connect with you. Love to love to
00:28:28.620
check us out at just thinking, uh, and I definitely appreciate, uh, uh, have it having me on Allen.
00:28:33.600
Thank you so much for Jill. I appreciate it. I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation. Uh,
00:28:39.740
he is such a good example for all of us just to be bold in our faith. A lot of times, uh, I'm probably
00:28:46.020
guilty of this as well when I am contending with the other side, forgetting that the, uh, essential
00:28:53.180
problem, uh, with those who think that unborn life is expendable is that they don't know God
00:28:59.780
is that they don't know Jesus Christ. And that is the capacity for all of us. Now there are people
00:29:05.540
who don't know God who are pro-life, but even that is, uh, wisdom and grace from God that they
00:29:11.600
understand that life inside the womb is made in the image of God. But as Christians, we know that
00:29:17.400
for sure. We are convicted by that in our souls and in our hearts. There is no way to get around
00:29:23.160
that. If we are children of God, we recognize the value of vulnerable life and we care about life,
00:29:29.780
uh, not just inside the womb, but we also care about these mothers. And it is our responsibility
00:29:34.940
to do something, uh, for life that starts at conception. And also these mothers who find themselves
00:29:41.320
in crisis situations, but to create an entire culture of life, to make them feel helped and
00:29:46.780
cared for. That is part of what it means. That's an example of what it means to be the hands and feet
00:29:51.620
of Jesus. I'm thankful for, uh, for Virgil. He certainly challenged me. I hope you feel that way
00:29:56.920
as well. And I hope you feel enlightened and encouraged by that conversation. I hope you guys
00:30:01.360
have an awesome weekend and I will see you on Monday for Theology Mondays.