Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1138 ｜ Sharing the Gospel with Joe Rogan ｜ Guest： Wes Huff

00:00:00.000 Apologist Wes Huff had the opportunity to defend historic Christianity and the gospel to millions

00:00:07.520 on the Joe Rogan podcast after he went viral in a debate against a prominent atheist, Billy

00:00:13.320 Carson. So who is Wes Huff? What is his apologetics ministry? What is his testimony? He is going to

00:00:20.720 share all of that with us today, also talk about this very contentious Billy Carson debate, what

00:00:26.020 it was like being on Joe Rogan, but he's also just going to share his testimony. And part of that

00:00:31.300 testimony includes miraculous healing. This is just an amazing conversation. At the end, I get to ask

00:00:37.380 him some of the questions, the apologetics questions that you guys sent in. You are going to be so

00:00:42.980 encouraged and just edified and equipped after hearing from Wes. So without further ado, here he is.

00:00:56.020 Wes, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. For those who may not know, can you just tell

00:01:04.260 us who you are and what you do? Yeah, so I am a scholar and Christian apologist. I work with an

00:01:12.300 organization called Apologetics Canada. I'm the director of Central Canada. So I live up here in

00:01:17.280 Canada, in Toronto, and I work with a national organization that seeks to equip the church with

00:01:24.160 a biblically sound, intellectually robust, and culturally engaged faith. So we've been around

00:01:29.000 for over a decade, equipping the church to be able to respond to questions regarding the Christian

00:01:36.200 faith. And I myself am a PhD candidate at the University of Toronto studying early New Testament

00:01:42.640 manuscripts. So that's kind of my lane where I stay in, in terms of the history of the Bible and the text

00:01:48.620 and canon of scripture. A little bit of early church history stuff too. But travel, speak, and

00:01:54.980 for the last number of years have been in leadership in my church, which is where my office happens to be

00:02:02.140 here in Toronto. And so I'm also a family man. I have three kids, another on the way. And yeah,

00:02:10.040 lots of hats, but all good things. Yes. Okay. I have so many questions just within that answer.

00:02:16.340 How would you compare and contrast the theological landscape and maybe cultural too? They really go

00:02:23.140 hand in hand in Canada versus in the United States, because you're very familiar with both.

00:02:30.580 Yeah, that's a good question. I think Canada tends to be five to 10 years down the road in terms of

00:02:36.960 the progressive left. And so we, as has been on public display for the world to see in terms of our

00:02:43.380 government with our prime minister, Justin Trudeau, who is in the process of stepping down. He's

00:02:48.700 announced his resignation, but it is still in sort of active leadership at the moment. So I think what

00:02:54.560 I can say about kind of the placement that Canada holds in terms of its politicalness is that if you

00:03:04.560 were to imagine the United States going in a far more left-leaning direction, you can take a look up

00:03:10.500 north in Canada and kind of glimpse where that might be. So we are far more liberal on the whole,

00:03:19.220 I think, than the United States outside of pockets of places like LA and areas like that, where you can

00:03:26.460 see sort of the liberalism take over. But our institutions are very secularized. We pride ourselves

00:03:32.740 on being a very secular country. And we are one of, I think, two countries in the world who have no

00:03:37.380 abortion laws. So if that tells you anything in regards to where our culture is, we are a very

00:03:45.020 secular, very liberal place. And yet I think I'm optimistic in the sense that you see a lot of

00:03:54.100 kind of Christian grassroots movements in that I think people are realizing the emptiness of a secular

00:04:02.540 worldview, a post-Christian. And I would actually argue that we're largely post-secular as well in

00:04:07.980 terms of the fact of atheism, I think, is on the downturn and things like being spiritual but not

00:04:13.820 religious or kind of a new agey vibe is on the upturn. But I think that our climate right now is

00:04:22.200 in a place not unlike the United States, where people are far more open to spiritual and religious

00:04:26.940 conversations because I think they've seen the emptiness of the secular, atheistic, natural,

00:04:31.740 materialistic worldview. What would you say the state of the church is in Canada? And I know that's

00:04:38.340 a big question because there are so many different subsets of what someone would call the church,

00:04:44.120 just like there is in America. But I'm curious if the prevailing secularism and progressivism in Canada

00:04:50.500 really bolsters the church, or if you think that that has seeped into the point to where it's a lot

00:04:58.700 like, you know, a lot of places in Europe where, for the most part, people are Christians in name only,

00:05:06.660 if at all, and the church itself is actually very watered down and weak.

00:05:11.620 Hmm. Yeah, it's an interesting way of kind of looking at the pulse of where the church is. I think

00:05:18.020 what I see is actually something that's relatively optimistic in that the culture used to be far

00:05:26.140 more culturally Christian. And you see this sort of in the statistics of church attendance, where it

00:05:31.580 used to look like a lot of people attended church in somewhere like Canada, and the laws reflected more

00:05:36.680 of kind of a Christianized perspective. We had something like the Lord's Day Act, which meant that

00:05:41.620 you couldn't open a business on Sunday. But as the culture moved away from that, what I think

00:05:46.760 happened is that a good portion of people who were culturally Christian going to church on Sunday

00:05:51.460 because it's something that you did as part of kind of the cultural milieu, they stopped doing

00:05:56.840 that because the culture shifted. And what that ended up with was churches that largely, I mean,

00:06:02.620 core churches, churches that were actually preaching the gospel, had a biblically grounded perspective in

00:06:10.340 terms of the teaching and equipping and evangelizing. Those people, those congregations were left with

00:06:17.400 people who I think were genuine believers. And in that sense, even though it looks statistically like

00:06:23.420 the churches were getting smaller, I think what we ended up with was actually a far more core,

00:06:29.680 central group of Christians who were actually on fire for the gospel message. And I'm seeing,

00:06:36.160 as I said, kind of in that, that zeitgeist of people moving away from atheism, being more open

00:06:42.400 spiritually, that the churches in terms of the conservative churches in Canada, I would actually

00:06:49.500 argue are growing. Whereas the mainstream churches that have capitulated on issues that, you know,

00:06:55.220 you would think of in terms of LGBTQ issues or kind of universalistic perspectives, all religions lead to

00:07:01.400 God. Those churches are dying. Those churches are empty. But the churches that are sticking to the

00:07:07.620 guns on what historic biblical Christianity has always claimed are growing. And so I attend a church

00:07:13.700 that's not very big. We only have about, you know, any given Sunday has somewhere between 70 and 100,

00:07:20.080 maybe 120 on a full Sunday people. And we are, we are growing. We are having visitors on a regular

00:07:30.020 basis and adding congregants and we're baptizing people. And I think that that's emblematic of

00:07:35.500 the churches that are actually sticking to their guns on what the Bible actually teaches and what

00:07:41.980 the historic Christian faith is actually proclaimed. So it's a big, it's a mixed bag. You know, you look at 0.81

00:07:47.280 the broader denominations in Canada that have kind of been the historic denominations. A lot of them are

00:07:53.880 not doing well. But I think if you actually looked at what they are holding to theologically,

00:08:00.980 you could actually track, you know, if they are caving on these issues that our culture is saying,

00:08:07.420 these are things that the church should cave on, then that actually people realize, well, if you,

00:08:12.620 if you don't stand for something, you fall for everything. And that's what we're seeing. We're seeing

00:08:18.080 that people realize that if church just becomes a social club, then there are lots of other social

00:08:22.200 clubs that they could spend their Sunday morning going to. Exactly. Like I say, I say, if you're

00:08:26.400 going to go to a progressive church, just go to brunch because it's a waste of time. If the church

00:08:30.860 is saying what everyone else is saying, well, you can find community elsewhere. If you are looking for

00:08:36.440 self-affirmation, if you are looking for someone to celebrate sin, you can get that anywhere and you

00:08:41.580 don't have to waste your time getting dressed up to go to church. And I think a lot of people,

00:08:46.300 it seems to me, maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, but that Gen Z seems to understand

00:08:52.540 that maybe even better than some preceding generations. When I look at college campuses

00:08:59.320 across the country, there does seem to be some kind of movement. And while yes, Gen Z is overwhelmingly

00:09:05.900 progressive, at least here in the United States, I'm sure they're in Canada too. When it comes to some

00:09:11.000 of these more controversial cultural issues like LGBTQ, it seems to me like those who are Christians

00:09:18.780 and who do have a biblical view of those things are actually firmer and bolder on those things than

00:09:25.040 millennials are, and certainly Gen X, and in some ways, maybe even boomers too. And so that gives me

00:09:33.320 hope. Of course, I have hope in general, just as a Christian, but when I'm just talking about

00:09:37.700 practically, the next generation, I do think could carry the torch of courage maybe even better than

00:09:44.540 our generation has. Yeah, I think I think I'm seeing that in Canada too. I'm, I'm cautiously

00:09:52.980 optimistic, but optimistic nonetheless, in what we're seeing in terms of the tides of where our society is

00:09:58.900 going. I think a lot of people are seeing the end result of the progressive dogma that's being

00:10:05.760 spouted by our culture and realizing that you can progress off the end of a cliff and that's still

00:10:09.960 progression. And so that is not necessarily the progress you want to see. But actually, if you

00:10:15.540 want true progress, if you want to see the movements globally that are, and historically, that have given

00:10:21.600 agency to women, have given value to the marginalized, have grown culture and built groups and places like

00:10:31.560 the Western world, that's historic biblical Christianity. And I think we're seeing that 0.54

00:10:36.340 in a, in a different way, um, with individuals who are kind of moving towards that, uh, kind of

00:10:43.340 perspective in the, in the culture, even individuals who wouldn't necessarily describe themselves as

00:10:49.260 Christian or at least, or are Christianly influenced, but are not say confessing the historic

00:10:55.520 Christian belief of Jesus being the son of God, uh, predicting his own death and resurrection and,

00:11:00.060 and, and rising from the dead, the Jordan Peterson's, the Douglas Murray's, the Tom Hollins of the

00:11:04.900 world who see the, the reality of something like the Christian faith and what it has built in our

00:11:11.320 modern world. And I think that's, that's trickling down, as you said, into some of the younger

00:11:16.100 generations who are kind of peering up into the millennials and, um, you know, the, the, the gen Xers,

00:11:23.820 the boomers and going, Hmm, uh, I don't know if I really want to get on board with some of that 1.00

00:11:29.420 stuff. Uh, I think I'm going to try to find, I'm going to try to plat my feet on something

00:11:34.060 firmer than midair. Hmm. Praise God. I hope that that is true.

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00:13:11.640 Tell me about your upbringing. Were you raised a Christian?

00:13:21.340 Yeah. So I grew up in a missionary family. My parents were missionaries in 1989. They moved to

00:13:27.100 Pakistan, which is where I was born. And then, uh, we left Pakistan not too long after, uh, for a number

00:13:33.840 of reasons, the Gulf war had broken out and Pakistan had taken, uh, the side of Saddam Hussein. And so that

00:13:38.840 made things complicated. And then my parents were accused of proselytizing, giving Bibles to Muslims.

00:13:45.040 And so we had to leave the country and came back to Canada, which is where my, my parents are from.

00:13:50.660 And then we eventually went back out into the mission field in the Middle East, in the country

00:13:55.060 of Jordan. And so I was very young, but spent a little bit, a portion of my childhood in Jordan

00:14:00.040 and then came back from overseas. But, um, yeah, Christian family, missionary family. My dad

00:14:06.620 pastored here in Canada, in Ontario. Well, we were in a couple of different provinces, but

00:14:11.840 particularly in Ontario, spent my high school years in Northern Ontario. And so solid Christian

00:14:18.720 family. But my faith journey really started after we came back from overseas when just before my 12th

00:14:26.080 birthday, I was diagnosed with a rare neurological condition that left me paralyzed from the waist down.

00:14:30.820 And, uh, that was a diagnosis, um, from a condition that was called acute transverse myelitis,

00:14:37.740 where the pediatric neurologist told me that I would be a paraplegic for the rest of my life.

00:14:43.660 But the chances of recovery were, were very, very low, slim to none. And the short version of this

00:14:50.140 story is that one month from the day that I woke up and couldn't feel my legs on January 8th, I woke up

00:14:56.080 on February 8th on a Saturday morning, got out of bed, walked over to my wheelchair and sat down.

00:15:01.640 And it was the doctors who first used the word miracle, uh, because they said they had no medical

00:15:07.060 explanation for the non-existence of the swelling that was on my spinal cord, which the condition

00:15:14.080 had caused, which was cutting off the communication from my legs to my brain. And, um, also no evidence

00:15:20.680 of muscle atrophy from not using my legs for that 30 day period. And so that marked a very powerful

00:15:26.580 supernatural experience in my life where I believed that God had healed me and saw the kind of outward,

00:15:34.240 um, evidence of that in a very practical, real way. And, and, you know, grounding that in the faith

00:15:42.020 that I was raised in, but also later in life, despite having that, you know, what I described as a

00:15:47.020 powerful supernatural experience, still wrestling with some intellectual doubts. And, uh, fortunately

00:15:53.200 being in an environment where my parents, you know, along missionary heritage, um, were, had raised me

00:16:02.120 with this perspective, I think more passively than actively where we had things like the Quran and the

00:16:09.180 Book of Mormon on the shelf in the living room. And so when I was wrestling with some of the questions

00:16:13.960 about worldview issues, uh, I, you know, pull those off the shelf and read them and kind of weighed them

00:16:19.980 in regard to what I'd been raised to believe, because I figured that what I had been raised to

00:16:26.760 believe, it wasn't a bad reason to hold to that. It certainly isn't. And I hope my children, um, also

00:16:33.480 hold to the worldview perspective that I raised them to believe. But also, uh, I, I also understood that

00:16:39.420 even just the admission of having these other worldview perspectives, the literature on the

00:16:44.740 bookshelf, uh, was kind of an admittance by my parents that the Christian worldview could hold

00:16:50.300 up to scrutiny. And so, um, you're open to read these things because if Christianity is true, 0.94

00:16:56.520 God can handle your doubts and, and that the, the Bible and Christianity can stand up to examination.

00:17:03.640 And, and so as much as I could, as a teenager investigated some of those things, and it was

00:17:08.800 a combination of, you know, the, the confidence and the foundation that my parents had lain and

00:17:15.400 this kind of experience that I had as a paraplegic and then no longer being a paraplegic. And then

00:17:21.320 investigating some of these questions about the worldview issues that I had that ultimately, um,

00:17:27.460 grounded me in the perspectives and worldview that I now hold today.

00:17:32.260 Yes. Okay. I have so many questions because I have a feeling there is a lot packed into that

00:17:37.600 overview. I want to go back to this miraculous healing. So before you were diagnosed with this,

00:17:43.380 you said it was right before you turned 12, correct? So did you wake up one morning and you

00:17:48.820 were paralyzed or had, was this kind of degenerative or you thought it was degenerative where you were

00:17:54.460 having multiple symptoms and then finally it culminated in you losing the ability to use your legs?

00:18:00.860 Yeah.

00:18:02.260 Yeah. So I had the flu and my body's immune system, instead of attacking the flu,

00:18:07.720 attack the nerve endings of the base of my spinal cord. So it's a flu condition that happens,

00:18:12.460 um, you know, to one in however many million people. And, uh, there really was no reason why

00:18:19.320 this took place. There's no reason why the body's immune system would do this in particular,

00:18:24.880 but it, it was instantaneous as far as we know. I had, um, I, I was having a nap and when I woke up

00:18:33.260 from my nap, I couldn't feel my legs. I bet that was terrifying. Do you remember that moment?

00:18:37.440 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. I mean, it was kind of, um, disorienting in the fact that, you know,

00:18:43.700 you think you've slept funny, you know, maybe your legs are asleep and you can't feel them because of

00:18:49.380 that. And it was a, uh, a period of time of trying to like, you know, restore feelings somehow back in

00:18:55.900 my legs. And when that, that obviously was not taking place when they were fully numb,

00:19:01.180 I called my mom who then, um, called a friend of hers who was a nurse. And then, um, one thing

00:19:08.060 led to eventually calling an ambulance and I was rushed to the local hospital and then onto another,

00:19:13.720 um, hospital here in London, Ontario, where they specialized in, in, they had a pediatric wing.

00:19:20.680 And so, um, that's when I was eventually diagnosed, but the, the paralysis itself was instantaneous.

00:19:27.300 And they said, sorry, this is just what it's going to be. You're just never

00:19:31.040 going to be able to walk. And after you were given that diagnosis, I mean, did you accept it?

00:19:36.740 Did your parents accept it? Or were you guys thinking, no, we're going to beat the odds and

00:19:41.240 we're going to figure out a way to get you back? Yeah, we had basically accepted that I would be

00:19:48.680 paralyzed. We had done things like put a ramp on, on our house. Uh, we were basically, you know,

00:19:54.880 digging in for the long haul in terms of years later, I asked my parents, cause I got asked all the

00:19:59.720 time, did anyone pray for healing? You know, did anyone lay hands on you or something like that?

00:20:05.100 And nothing like that took place. It at least not. Um, I mean, I, I knew that there were people

00:20:12.520 all over the world who are praying for me and, uh, you know, extended family friends. So it wasn't

00:20:18.240 that no one was praying for healing, but if you talk to my parents, they would say that they weren't

00:20:23.100 necessarily praying for healing. My mom always says that, uh, they were praying that God would be

00:20:27.840 glorified amidst the circumstance. So it wasn't necessarily that they were looking for a miracle.

00:20:33.540 I think that they had in sort of a pragmatic way accepted, you know, this is what has taken place.

00:20:39.180 God in his sovereignty has allowed this to happen. And so whatever the outcome of this, we are going

00:20:45.500 to make sure that we are able to glorify God through it. And so there wasn't one instance that

00:20:52.760 I could necessarily point to where someone prayed over me and then that's what felt different.

00:20:58.060 Uh, I think it was, um, you know, much more organic than that in that I literally woke up and couldn't

00:21:05.080 feel my legs. And then I woke up and I could feel my legs. And so not your sort of typical, um, if you

00:21:11.480 want to describe it as a charismatic experience, it wasn't that in any way. Uh, but I think it was

00:21:17.380 in, in a very practical way, what I would describe as a supernatural healing.

00:21:21.960 Right. And you said that you felt that, well, first the doctors used the word miracle, but you

00:21:28.060 felt that, okay, this is, this is God healing me. And God has used it obviously as a part of your

00:21:34.900 testimony to bring himself glory. And was that something that you realized right away? Or is

00:21:39.780 this a realization that grew over time?

00:21:41.500 In terms of the, um, the like worldview significance of it?

00:21:47.840 Yes. Or recognizing that this is, this is the Lord healing me miraculously and he's doing it for

00:21:55.940 his glory. Whereas like I have the tendency to, although of course I know that God can heal. I have

00:22:01.860 the tendency to first think of the pragmatic and to find all of the practical, tangible reasons why

00:22:07.600 something happens. And sometimes I have to have friends in my life remind me, you know, spiritual

00:22:12.260 warfare exists or God can do whatever he wants to do. And I'm not sure what I would think if I were

00:22:18.140 12, but yeah, I'm just curious how it did shape you spiritually. If it was something that progressed

00:22:24.140 over time as you kind of learn more about your faith, or if it was just kind of like an instant

00:22:29.300 knowledge that this had been the Lord. Yeah. I mean, I think at the, as much as you can,

00:22:36.380 as an 11, almost 12 year old, realizing that something very unusual took place. And when the

00:22:43.700 medical professionals themselves tell you, well, we have no medical explanation, then it means that

00:22:49.400 something is going on. And so at the time, even if it was a very, you know, naively, I, I definitely

00:22:59.000 felt that God had allowed me to experience something where I had taken advantage of

00:23:05.540 something as, as simple as walking in and out of the room, being able to utilize my legs in that

00:23:11.580 very basic way. And so that played a big part in, uh, later I was very involved in athletics and track

00:23:19.180 and field. I competed competitively all through my high school and then my university years of the,

00:23:24.400 being a sprinter in varsity, um, in, in university. And although I wasn't necessarily the most talented

00:23:30.940 athlete on the team, I always felt that there was an aspect of, this is a way that I can use to glorify

00:23:37.580 God through what he has revealed to me. And so, um, you know, even, even then, you know, like Calvin

00:23:45.080 says, our hearts are factories of idols. Uh, there were times where I made that all about me and was

00:23:50.140 convinced that, you know, God had healed me and I was going to be an Olympic athlete and be a next

00:23:54.360 Eric little type. And, uh, realizing as I, you know, over-trained and got injured that, uh, that

00:24:00.720 was me making the story about me when realistically it's not about me. So we can always take those types

00:24:08.000 of positives and spin them in this, uh, beautiful yet broken world to be about us. But yeah, I think I

00:24:14.180 did feel a sense of, okay, there's something here, something has happened. And like I said before,

00:24:20.660 in terms of my teenage years, having that, that, okay, well, something took place. The medical

00:24:27.920 doctors didn't really have an explanation for it. Well, okay. How do I then make that leap to that

00:24:34.080 being connected with Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, stepping out of eternity and into humanity

00:24:39.260 being the cause of that. And I think that that's where I connected some of the heart and head later

00:24:45.140 on in my teenage years. But as a, as a, you know, teenager, an early teenager, um, I, I did definitely

00:24:52.560 feel that there was a significance to God revealing this, this experience to me.

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00:26:42.040 Tell me how you got interested in manuscripts. Um, I listened to the whole Joe Rogan podcast,

00:26:48.240 very interesting. And as someone who I love theology and apologetics and I like history and I've been a

00:26:54.340 Christian my whole life, uh, you talked about things that I had never heard of before. Um, and I,

00:27:01.800 I felt like, okay, I think I need some more basic historical knowledge to even kind of like understand

00:27:07.920 what he is talking about here. So obviously you have very specialized, very deep knowledge in,

00:27:14.140 uh, the manuscripts. And as you said, some of early church history. So tell me how you started

00:27:20.240 on that endeavor from a scholarly perspective. I know you were raised a Christian. You talked about

00:27:25.280 seeing the Quran, the book of Mormon at your home and kind of getting your kind of like apologetics

00:27:29.340 footing then, but you decided to pursue this and kind of go into this niche. Tell me about that.

00:27:37.860 Yeah. So I realized when I went off to university and I was engaging in a lot of what you would

00:27:43.020 typically call apologetic evangelistic conversations, although I wouldn't necessarily have been able to

00:27:48.940 tell you what the word apologetics meant at that point in time. That's what I was doing is giving

00:27:53.860 reasons for the hope that I had in Jesus Christ and aiming to do so with gentleness and respect,

00:27:59.340 keeping a clear conscience as Peter writes in first Peter three 15. And so I noticed a pattern that

00:28:05.500 when I would talk about say the existence of God or the ethics of humanity or the life of the pre-born

00:28:11.660 that a lot of people would say, okay, Wes, that sounds great, but a good portion of your reasoning

00:28:16.600 is coming from the Bible and you can't trust the Bible. All you're dealing with is a translation 1.00

00:28:21.000 of a translation of a translation. You're dealing with error written copies. You're reading Matthew,

00:28:25.580 Mark, Luke, and John, but what about the gospel of Mary? What about the gospel of Thomas? Well,

00:28:30.000 have you ever heard of those? And so I realized that there were these types of objections that if true

00:28:36.740 actually did undermine what I believed because I claimed to be following Jesus, right? Jesus Christ.

00:28:44.340 A friend of mine, Andy Bannister, who works out in the UK with an organization called Solas,

00:28:49.560 he likes to say that if you take Christ out of Christian, all you're left with is Ian and Ian's

00:28:53.480 a great guy, but he can't save you from your sins, right? And so kind of with that perspective in

00:28:58.780 mind, thinking, okay, well, if I'm going to attach my identity to Christ, I find the primary source

00:29:06.700 historically for his life, death, and resurrection in the gospels. And if I can't trust those,

00:29:11.740 then I really don't have a reason to put my hope and faith in Jesus. And so digging into those

00:29:16.820 questions in terms of historical reliability, the canon of scripture, textual transmission,

00:29:22.680 and ultimately leading me to be being fascinated with these copies of the Bible that go back

00:29:29.060 thousands of years and really trying to track down how do we go from ancient papyrus and parchment

00:29:34.660 to modern day print. And that's where my interest really delved into going down that rabbit hole and

00:29:42.460 ultimately leading me to where I am right now in terms of finishing up my doctoral dissertation at

00:29:47.340 the University of Toronto on dealing with early Christian manuscripts.

00:29:51.340 Okay. Tell me how all of this led to you getting into a viral debate with someone named Billy Carson.

00:29:58.900 And this is actually when, um, I know that you've been doing this for a long time, but this is when

00:30:03.800 I first, um, heard about you and started listening to you and digging into you. I had someone who works

00:30:10.080 here say, you've got to check this guy out and watch this. And then of course I followed as you went

00:30:15.180 on Joe Rogan after Billy Carson went on Joe Rogan. So tell me about that. Like how did that debate come

00:30:21.100 to be and what has happened since then? Yeah. So that was kind of an interesting, uh, God ordained

00:30:29.320 kind of set of events where I was making a number of, I was just making these short response videos

00:30:35.320 that I was putting on Instagram reels. And it started with just things that people would send me. Um,

00:30:41.600 I, you know, had been working and doing presentations on the historical reliability of the Bible and the

00:30:46.460 historical Jesus and things like that. And so it was gaining a growing, but very meager audience on

00:30:53.260 social media. But I would have people send me videos of individuals making claims about the Bible.

00:30:59.800 Um, and you know, there's no lack of kind of crazy takes about the Bible and Jesus on the internet.

00:31:07.120 But, um, a part of the group of these kinds of clips that people would send me, uh, were really at

00:31:14.760 the beginning of last summer, this guy, Billy Carson, who is the CEO of an organization called

00:31:19.920 forbidden knowledge, who is kind of a, a strange mix of conspiracy theory, um, ancient aliens and,

00:31:27.400 um, new age is he, it's all kind of grouped into one and smushed together. But he was, uh, going on

00:31:34.840 these big podcasts, particularly he went on Joe Rogan and then a PBD, Patrick, but David and Andrew

00:31:41.300 Schultz is flagrant. And so there were these groupings of clips where he was talking and really

00:31:46.060 saying pretty demonstrably false, kind of silly things about Christianity in the Bible, but he,

00:31:52.280 he seemed to be getting away with it. Yeah. You know, saying, uh, the Hebrew word for God is Elohim 0.79

00:31:58.200 and Elohim is a plural. And so every time you see the word God in the Bible, well, it really means

00:32:02.040 gods because the Bible is trying to cover up the fact that there's multiple gods that the Israelites

00:32:07.980 worshiped, um, or, you know, Jesus, uh, in Greek is Jesus and Jesus just means hail Zeus. So every

00:32:13.940 time you say in Jesus's name, when you pray, you're really praying to Zeus, um, or even just saying

00:32:18.080 that the earliest copies of the Bible deny the crucifixion. And so that really fell into my area

00:32:24.280 of expertise and these things were not hard to debunk. Um, and so I just made some short clips,

00:32:30.240 you know, no more than a, a 90 seconds long playing a clip of, of Billy Carson saying these things.

00:32:36.120 And then without attacking Billy Carson, but just addressing what he was saying,

00:32:40.520 explaining why they were untrue. And so I made a group of these along with response videos to

00:32:45.520 a bunch of other people. They weren't, you know, solely Billy Carson, but, uh, what, what happened

00:32:51.680 is that those gained traction because just of the fact that Billy Carson was very popular. And

00:32:56.880 early in the fall of last year, I was reached out to, um, by an individual named Mark Menard.

00:33:05.040 And so I was out for lunch with a friend and I saw a message pop up on my Instagram DMS

00:33:09.760 where someone said, uh, you don't know me. I'm a friend of Billy Carson's and Billy Carson is going

00:33:15.600 to be in my studio tomorrow. Do you want to debate him on some of the things he said about the Bible?

00:33:21.200 And so, um, unbeknownst to me, this individual, Mark Menard, his media manager, a guy named Anton,

00:33:26.920 um, were a talking, had been talking with Billy Carson who lived in Mark's neighborhood,

00:33:32.020 still lives in Mark's neighborhood. Uh, and, uh, Mark is a Christian and Billy is obviously not.

00:33:37.440 And so they'd been talking back and forth about just having a conversation and hashing out some

00:33:41.680 of their differences. And so Mark's media manager, Anton had put together a Google doc of different,

00:33:47.540 different resources that Mark should look at in terms of really holding Billy's feet to the fire

00:33:53.220 on some of these things that he was saying about Christianity. And as the, the kind of date

00:33:58.060 approached Mark, and I've found this out since, cause I've become good friends with Mark and Anton,

00:34:04.440 Mark felt unprepared for going into this conversation because Billy always was so confident.

00:34:10.460 He would always say these things very confidently. And so, uh, 20, but you know, the day before this

00:34:17.100 conversation was supposed to happen, uh, Mark apparently talks to Anton and says, well, Wes Huff's

00:34:24.880 name is all over this doc. Why don't I just reach out to him and ask him if he'll do it?

00:34:29.000 And so that's exactly what he did. He reached out to me. Uh, I happened to see the message that,

00:34:34.200 you know, it was literally 24 hours beforehand. He didn't know where I lived. He didn't know I was

00:34:37.980 Canadian and that I couldn't necessarily get down to Florida for this to take place, but said, Hey,

00:34:44.180 if, if you can hop on an online call, um, let's do this thing. And so I said, yeah, sure,

00:34:48.780 let's do it. And so the next day, um, uh, October 17th, I jumped on this call and I, to, you know,

00:34:58.740 Billy's face virtually, uh, dismantled a lot of these things that he had claimed. And to be totally

00:35:05.720 honest, the conversation was, you know, we had some technical difficulties and, uh, the kind of,

00:35:13.040 the conversation kind of meandered and, um, the time was limited and we really didn't get to a

00:35:18.680 whole lot of things that I would have hoped to have gotten to. And so I kind of came away from

00:35:23.720 this conversation, this interaction feeling like it was a bit of a nothing burger and that nothing

00:35:29.280 would really transpire from it. You know, we really didn't get to the meat and potatoes of what I

00:35:33.940 would really want to talk about. I was hoping that maybe it would, uh, kind of get my foot in the door

00:35:39.260 to eventually get down to Florida and do an in-person thing. Um, but behind the scenes,

00:35:45.260 as, as that conversation, you know, happened, uh, what I didn't know was that Billy was really not

00:35:52.460 happy with the way that he had been, uh, debunked because I think he had been pretty careful to not

00:36:01.260 put himself in a situation where he could be called on the, the silly things that he was saying.

00:36:08.180 And that was very purposeful on, on his end. And this had happened. And I think he, he, he'd sold 0.71

00:36:17.520 his friend Mark short and thinking that Mark could get someone that could actually, um, interact with

00:36:22.140 him. Um, and, and he, I think had kind of assumed a level of arrogance. Um, so the long story is that,

00:36:30.480 that Billy tried to, uh, cover this up, told Mark, he did not want it released. And then a number of

00:36:36.180 things transpired where he threatened legal action, uh, against Mark and Anton, and then myself sent

00:36:43.560 us all cease and desist letters, um, showed up to Mark's house at 2am. Uh, yeah. So that's an

00:36:50.480 interesting question. So in reality, the, this was a, uh, this was a bluff. Um, it was meant to

00:36:57.200 intimidate me in particular, uh, but the cease and desist specifically said, don't use

00:37:06.160 my face, don't use my name. Um, don't talk about me. So, I mean, from a legal perspective,

00:37:11.280 it was, it was pretty baseless and I'm up in Canada, so it would have been an international

00:37:16.680 suit. And so that's, it's just not going to work. Right. So I got sent the cease and desist

00:37:23.080 letter. Um, and I, uh, I promptly that day made a video where I screenshotted it, put it online

00:37:29.220 and basically said, uh, you know, losing a debate is not legal grounds to litigate. Uh,

00:37:35.180 but I, I will comply with all of your terms and conditions if you decide to run it back

00:37:42.200 and we do this thing in person again. And of course he didn't do that, um, because he's,

00:37:46.640 he's not interested in that. Yeah. Can you, sorry to interject before we, before we move

00:37:52.280 on to the rest of the story? Um, can you give me an example of one thing that you debunked

00:37:58.040 that he did not like? Did you get into some people? I encourage everyone to go watch the

00:38:03.040 debate. Um, it's still up, right? Yeah, it's on my channel. Okay. Yes. Okay. So everyone

00:38:09.400 should go watch it, but did you get to debunk the, um, idea that we're saying hail Zeus when

00:38:14.620 we pray to Jesus or the Elohim is really just like a cover for paganism or polytheism?

00:38:20.740 Um, so no, not those ones specifically, those were some of the more, uh, egregious ones that

00:38:27.440 I was hoping to get to the, the one that I think really stood out that kind of went viral was that

00:38:32.340 we started off the conversation and Mark simply asked, Hey, Billy, you say that Jesus wasn't

00:38:38.360 crucified. Why do you say that? And so Billy brought up two documents, Codex Sinaiticus,

00:38:43.460 which he calls the Sinai Bible, which is in, in his defense, the oldest kind of cover to cover

00:38:49.240 copy Genesis to Revelation, copy of the Bible that we have. And he says, well, the crucifixion

00:38:54.740 isn't in there. And then he pointed to the gospel of Jesus's wife, um, which he says, you know,

00:39:01.820 is evidence that Jesus was married and therefore brings into question whether he was ever crucified,

00:39:06.200 not necessarily a one-to-one correlation there, but he, that's part of the argument that he used.

00:39:11.220 And so I simply asked, you know, when you say the Sinai Bible, are you referring to Codex

00:39:15.800 Sinaiticus? And he said, yes. And, um, so I happened and still happen to have, um, a facsimile

00:39:22.260 behind me on my shelf of Codex Sinaiticus of the new Testament of Codex Sinaiticus. Um, I have the,

00:39:27.380 I have a, of the whole new test or the whole Codex Sinaiticus, but it's like 40 pounds. But the one I

00:39:33.640 keep on my bookshelf is just the new Testament. So I just pulled it off my shelf and I said, I'm looking

00:39:38.780 at the gospels in this fourth century Greek Bible and I'm seeing the crucifixion. Could you just explain to me

00:39:45.380 why you say that it denies the crucifixion? And his response was, oh, I miss, I misspoke. I didn't

00:39:53.540 mean Codex Sinaiticus. Uh, I meant the gospel of Barnabas. And so I said, okay, well the gospel of

00:40:00.700 Barnabas, that's also an interesting document. I've, I've worked with the copies of the gospel of

00:40:05.400 Barnabas and it's a medieval forgery. In fact, it paraphrases Dante's Inferno, which was written in

00:40:11.540 1413. And so that's problematic, right? If someone is quoting Dante's Inferno, it's obviously not a

00:40:17.380 first century document. Um, it says that Jesus is the Messiah, but he's not the Christ. Um, so there's

00:40:22.580 all sorts of issues there. Right. And so the interesting thing about the way that Billy responded

00:40:29.220 was that if you watch him on say the PBD podcast or on Joe Rogan, or even some of the videos that he

00:40:35.700 puts out, he's, he always has an answer. He always is Mr. Confident, talks in paragraphs.

00:40:42.720 And yet when I kind of pointed out the inaccuracies and problems with his statements,

00:40:50.560 he did not have a rebuttal. In fact, he just wanted to move on to the next topic. And so the

00:40:56.580 rebuttals really amounted to, uh, that's fair enough, or I'll take your word for it. And so in one

00:41:03.280 sense, it was a very unusual conversation, especially if you've watched Billy's content.

00:41:07.240 Yeah. But, um, I think going out from there, he was very uncomfortable with the fact that he

00:41:12.480 basically looked like he didn't know what he was talking about. Right. And, um, that was really

00:41:17.560 kind of the uncomfortability and, uh, the embarrassment that he felt that this cannot go

00:41:23.380 out into the world because my, my whole persona is that I know all the answers about these ancient

00:41:29.120 things. And this reveals that I actually don't know any of the answers.

00:41:34.020 Yeah. Wow. And I think that the legal action that he attempted to take after just further

00:41:38.860 discredits him. Whereas maybe if he had made another video, whether it was sincere or not,

00:41:44.180 even just thinking from a PR perspective, if he had made another video and said, wow, okay,

00:41:48.980 I realized that there's some more digging that I need to do. I thought that I knew some things that

00:41:53.420 I didn't really understand. I'm going to go back to the books and make sure I, I really get this.

00:41:58.100 And I'm even going to like ask Wes Huff to, to help me with that. He actually probably could have

00:42:03.400 retained some integrity and, um, respect by doing that without even losing like his atheist 1.00

00:42:12.100 creds, you know? But I think the fact that he said cease and desist, not only does that make him

00:42:19.020 look like a sore loser, but that makes him in, in, from my perspective, like a complete and total 0.93

00:42:24.840 fraud. And like, he has actually no idea what he's talking about. And he's actually very, very 0.98

00:42:30.960 insecure about that. I mean, it's even worse than saying, I'm just going to take my ball and go home.

00:42:36.540 It's, it's like, you can't ever play basketball again because you beat me. Um, that's, that's

00:42:42.540 really bad. But that led to you then being on Joe Rogan because Billy Carson had been on Joe

00:42:47.500 Rogan and kind of made these assertions. Joe Rogan, I could see him liking someone like Billy Carson.

00:42:53.060 He likes talking about aliens. He likes talking about new age stuff. He's open to talking about

00:42:57.380 Christianity. So it doesn't surprise me that, you know, that that happened, that he kind of,

00:43:02.720 uh, that he had him on and maybe even agreed with him on some stuff. But then he reached out to you

00:43:07.240 via Instagram DM, right? And was like, okay, I want to hear the other side of this.

00:43:13.020 Yeah. So it was a sort of a, um, funny happenstance that one thing led to another in a way that I could

00:43:19.440 never have predicted. And the Joe Rogan eventually did reach out, um, on Christmas Eve by Instagram

00:43:26.700 DM. Um, so, and, and simply said, you know, can, can you be here by December 30th? And so it was a

00:43:33.460 pretty short turnover, but that's, that's what led to, yeah, he saw the debate and, uh, wanted to talk

00:43:40.560 about that and some other things that, you know, that were part and parcel to my research. And that's

00:43:47.300 what happened. Yeah. And the one part that stood out to me, and you kind of already mentioned this,

00:43:52.380 that Billy Carson claimed, oh, the crucifixion didn't really happen. Gospel of Barnabas. And

00:43:57.240 that was one question that Joe Rogan asked you, like, isn't it possible if we believe that the

00:44:03.120 like resurrection happened, isn't it possible that like, he just didn't die and that he almost died,

00:44:10.180 but then he woke up and that he walked around and everyone thought that he rose from the dead,

00:44:14.140 but he didn't really. And I just thought that your response was very straightforward and compelling.

00:44:20.520 So can you kind of just debunk that, this idea that maybe Jesus was just in a coma and he didn't

00:44:27.100 really rise from the dead? Yeah, I think this is what's typically been referred to as the swoon

00:44:33.300 theory. It's whether Joe Rogan knew it or not. And I don't think he was actually necessarily

00:44:38.280 advocating for that. Yeah. But this is an argument we hear amongst groups like Muslims who, um, 0.68

00:44:43.600 because of the Quran and the fact that chapter four, verse 157 denies the crucifixion in a very vague

00:44:50.180 way. Uh, some Muslims have come up with the theory that Jesus actually survived the crucifixion. Um,

00:44:56.220 and that because he survived the crucifixion, he, uh, was then, you know, in the tomb, uh, recovered.

00:45:03.260 And when his disciples saw him afterwards, uh, that he was, you know, then the not resurrected,

00:45:12.340 but just recovered Jesus. And the problem with that is that, and this is what I explained to Joe is we

00:45:17.380 know a lot about Roman crucifixion in the sense of what takes place. And we know that the Romans were

00:45:22.180 very good at it. And so you, you have the data of broad, broader, you know, historical evidence of

00:45:30.420 what takes place in a Roman crucifixion, but then you also simply have what took place in the

00:45:34.740 descriptions from the biblical gospels. And nothing about that description indicates that Jesus

00:45:40.580 would have been alive. In fact, if on the off chance, let's say that what we see described in

00:45:46.780 the gospels did take place and Jesus didn't die. If you put him in the tomb and he survived and his

00:45:52.720 disciples saw him afterwards, there is no way they would have come to the conclusion that he was in a

00:45:57.580 resurrected glorified body. He would have been so beat up and, um, so, uh, you know, tortured that,

00:46:05.820 and I jokingly said to Rogan, you know, the first thing you say to your disciples is not peace be with

00:46:09.660 you. It's get me to a hospital, uh, because that's, that's the state he would have been in, but

00:46:15.340 undoubtedly, and I don't think there really is any question historically that Jesus survived the

00:46:20.140 crucifixion, uh, given all that took place. I mean, it, it literally says that the reason they didn't

00:46:26.060 break his knees, like they did the, the other individuals, the thieves on the cross was because

00:46:32.020 he was dead. And then, you know, they stab his side and out comes blood and water. Once again,

00:46:36.980 indicating, um, that there was death that took place. And so I referenced a JAMA article to Rogan,

00:46:44.280 the journal of the American medical association, where there was actual investigation done by

00:46:48.700 medical professionals and historians on looking at the description in the gospels about coming up

00:46:55.600 with a conclusion as to how Jesus may have died medically. And the conclusion was undoubtedly, well,

00:47:01.200 he did die. So there's no, there's no qualms about that, but how, if we were to say, diagnose it,

00:47:07.240 how would we do that? So there's historical data, there's medical data. Um, there's lots on the side.

00:47:13.720 There's just the, the face value understanding of what takes place in Roman crucifixion. And the fact

00:47:18.740 that if Jesus had not died, then it would be the Roman centurions were on the hook. Um, and they would 1.00

00:47:23.360 have been put to death. So there's just a, a cumulative case that takes place in terms of the,

00:47:28.660 something like denying that the crucifixion actually happened in the way that it happened.

00:47:34.040 That's just, it goes beyond the bounds of just simple, um, intuitive understanding.

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00:49:12.960 Okay. I have a bit of a challenge for you because we have gotten a ton of questions,

00:49:22.240 a ton of apologetics questions, history questions, and we don't have time to get into all of them.

00:49:27.180 So I would like to do kind of like a rapid fire. Now I know that's difficult because these are

00:49:32.780 obviously deep questions that I'm not asking you to just give a one word answer, but as concise as you

00:49:38.000 can, I'd love to go through a few of these. What is the single best piece of evidence that you have

00:49:47.260 found for the Bible, our biblical canon being the inerrant, infallible word of God?

00:49:54.860 Well, I think just the fact that it stood up to history, the fact that you have this first century

00:50:01.080 Jewish itinerant Roman preacher, a rabbi who walked the dusty streets of first century Judea

00:50:07.100 and then predicted his own death and resurrection. And the fact that we're still talking about him,

00:50:11.340 Allie, 2000 years, despite the fact that, you know, other messianic figures existed in the ancient

00:50:18.540 world. And when they died, their movement died along with them. And so I think when you read something

00:50:23.560 like the old Testament predicting this individual who would come, who would be the solution to the

00:50:30.220 problem of sin and death and release humanity from the effects of the curse. And then Jesus

00:50:35.900 comes on the scene and he, he fulfills those predictions in, in various and many ways. And

00:50:41.700 then he does miraculous things, you know, walking on water, raising the dead, making the blind see

00:50:48.660 and the lame walk, turning water into wine. And then he predicts his own death and resurrection,

00:50:53.320 and then he pulls it off. And sometimes I like to say that people who rise from the dead have more

00:50:57.820 credibility and authority than people who don't rise from the dead. And so at minimum, I would say

00:51:03.040 the best evidence for the word of God is the word made flesh who made his dwelling among us, and that

00:51:09.620 he has changed people's lives for the last 2000 years. And so we need an explanation of something

00:51:16.580 like the spread of Christianity in the ancient world, how 11 scared disciples went from hiding in

00:51:22.760 an upper room to changing the fundamental fabric of the ancient Roman world. And then that leading to us

00:51:30.360 living in an era almost 2000 years later, where we are not just talking about it as a historical reality,

00:51:37.940 Jesus was no less than a historical person, but he was so much more than historical person. Because people

00:51:42.820 like you, Ali, and myself, we can testify that our lives have been fundamentally changed in ways that we can't even

00:51:49.760 fully explain by this individual. And I think that testifies to the inspiration and infallibility and

00:51:58.240 just transformation of the word of God, ultimately.

00:52:01.980 You know, I remember Ben Shapiro was on Joe Rogan a few years ago, and I'm a big Ben Shapiro fan. I'm

00:52:08.120 very grateful for what he's contributed to conservatism. But he was asked by Joe, like, who do you think

00:52:13.940 Jesus was? And he said, I think he's a guy who led a revolution against Rome and was killed for his

00:52:18.800 trouble, like a lot of other people at the time. But it sounds like you're saying that is not a

00:52:23.940 compelling argument. Of course, not from our perspective, theologically and spiritually and

00:52:28.680 experientially, but also historically.

00:52:33.220 Yeah, I mean, there are other individuals. Simon Bar-Giora in the first century,

00:52:39.080 Dusty Theos of Samaria in the first century, Simon Bar-Kakwa in the second century. These were 0.64

00:52:44.220 individuals who claimed to be the Messiah, you know, much more in, I think, the expectation of

00:52:49.420 the way that they would have understood the Messiah in that day, being kind of an actual

00:52:53.040 revolutionary. But what's interesting about Jesus is that he didn't just claim to be a revolutionary.

00:52:57.900 In fact, when he stands in front of Pilate and Pilate says, you know, are you the king of the Jews?

00:53:03.960 Jesus says, my kingdom is not of this world. And so there's something fundamentally

00:53:08.960 different about Jesus. He's not just a murdered revolutionary. If he was, we would not be talking

00:53:16.280 about him right now, in the same way that we're not talking about Simon Bar-Giora. You know, a lot

00:53:22.500 of listeners may have never even heard of Simon Bar-Giora. And so it's, I think, the best evidence for the

00:53:30.120 historical Jesus is that you've heard of him. And what I mean by that is that not only have you heard

00:53:36.300 of him, but that he's being talked about in the same breadth by individuals like Joe Rogan to

00:53:44.620 individuals like Ben Shapiro. And that really, I think, testifies to there's something different

00:53:50.580 going on here. Yes. The fact that our entire calendar is still centered on his life certainly

00:53:56.420 speaks to something. Okay. You have described yourself. I heard that you referenced John Calvin

00:54:01.820 and the idol factory of our hearts quote earlier. You describe yourself as a Calvinist, correct?

00:54:09.820 Yes. Yes. And so do I. And that is maybe like one of the most maligned parts of me when people

00:54:16.980 like to throw at me, you're just a Calvinist. You don't know what you're talking about, which is

00:54:20.300 kind of amazing. Can you describe in the most concise way that you can, what it means to be a Calvinist?

00:54:26.280 Yeah. I think what I would ultimately say is I'm reformed with a capital R in that when I look at

00:54:33.640 something like the Protestant Reformation and the outpouring of individuals like Luther and Calvin

00:54:38.420 and Zwingli and Melunctin, ultimately in the stream of individuals like Luther and Knox, I hold to the

00:54:45.260 doctrines of grace. I think that that is what scripture teaches. You know, if you want to simplify it in

00:54:49.680 something like the five points of Calvinism or the tulip, I'm fine with that. I think that those are

00:54:55.860 articulations that kind of came after Calvin, but synthesized what he held to that ultimately

00:55:01.120 testify to God's sovereign plan and his overarching sovereignty in the universe, that he has a plan

00:55:11.780 that encompasses his divine will being the ultimate progenitor of all things, that he is both the

00:55:22.020 beginning and the end. And there's no such thing as something like unplanned, you know, what's a good

00:55:33.060 way to put it? There is nothing catches God off guard in that God is the author of creation and time is

00:55:39.820 part of his creation. And so I think what we can look at in the timeline of history is that God is in

00:55:48.520 control of all things. And that, you know, is interwoven with free will, but I would say free

00:55:56.300 will in terms of the way that the Bible would understand it in that God has free will and you

00:56:01.940 have free will. But when your free will runs into God's free will, yours loses because he is the author

00:56:06.780 of creation. And so I have, I have comfort and confidence that all things are done according to the

00:56:13.580 counsel of his will. And that he, um, via the golden chain of redemption that we see in places like

00:56:20.320 Romans, uh, has from eternity past saved his people. And so in that sense, when I do apologetics,

00:56:29.280 when I do evangelism, I can have confidence that even if I do it ineffectively, that, that it is not

00:56:35.180 my job to change people's hearts because the spirit is the one who changes hearts of stone and gives them

00:56:40.620 a heart of flesh. And my application to join the doctrine of the Trinity has been denied. I failed

00:56:45.940 the minimum requirements. And so I should not try to take God's job. And, uh, that gives me confidence

00:56:51.120 when I preach the gospel that in, in a very simple way, there is a hundred percent effectiveness in that

00:56:57.160 evangelistic effort, because although I am called to preach the gospel to, um, always give an answer

00:57:03.440 for the reason, for the hope that I have, uh, that ultimately being, being faithful to that does not

00:57:10.400 negate that God, uh, ordains the ends and the means. Yes. And there are a lot of misunderstandings

00:57:17.740 about Calvinism and obviously we don't have time to get into all of them, but someone might say why

00:57:22.460 even, uh, evangelize, if you believe that everyone is preordained, but of course we believe that God

00:57:29.360 has preordained evangelism and prayer as one of the means by which he is going to save people. That

00:57:36.440 doesn't mean that it is within our control. That means that that's something he's called us to do.

00:57:41.760 We do it for obedience and obedience glorifies him. We do it for his glory. Um, and we also do it

00:57:47.640 because, uh, because of perhaps, uh, something, a mystery that we can't fully explain. He has ordained

00:57:55.580 that he has ordained evangelism and prayer to really work, not just as something that we do like

00:58:02.200 ceremonially, but something that actually has great power as it is working as James says

00:58:07.220 about prayer. And so there is a mystery there, but it comes down to knowing that God is totally

00:58:12.860 sovereign. Job 42.2, nothing can thwart his will and everything falls within that, um, even salvation.

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00:59:57.300 Going down the line on, um, the Reformation topic, Sola Scriptura, this is something I get

01:00:08.000 challenged on a lot. I have a lot of, um, beloved Catholic friends that I really respect, but this

01:00:14.060 is like one of the main sticking points that I hear over and over again. You're wrong because

01:00:19.420 Sola Scriptura is wrong. So can you explain, um, your perspective on Sola Scriptura?

01:00:24.780 Yeah, I think much like, uh, kind of pushbacks on Calvinism, uh, pushbacks on Sola Scriptura is,

01:00:32.000 are largely misunderstandings of what Sola Scriptura is rather than an actual addressing

01:00:36.680 of what the historical perspective within historical Protestantism has articulated.

01:00:41.620 Simply put, Sola Scriptura is the perspective that inspired scripture is the sole infallible

01:00:47.260 rule of faith and practice for the church. And so the defense of the idea goes something

01:00:51.340 like this. Scripture ontologically is unique. So it's the direct speech of God. And nothing else

01:00:57.480 we possess as a rule is akin to it. And scripture likewise functions with unrivaled authority.

01:01:04.500 Nothing we possess as a rule does that. And so both in what it is and what it does, scripture is unique.

01:01:11.040 So infallibility as a rule of faith and practice is the outcome of its nature. It does not mean

01:01:18.500 something like tradition is not important. It does not mean that experience is not important.

01:01:25.500 Tradition and experience in the life of the believer and the practice of the church,

01:01:29.620 my systematic theology professor would always say, have a voice and have a vote, but it's scripture that has

01:01:35.140 the veto. So often I think what people accuse Sola Scriptura of being is what's sometimes referred

01:01:41.560 to as Sola Scriptura, not Sola Scriptura, but Sola Scriptura, in that it's just me and my Bible and

01:01:47.620 any interpretation that I come up with is, well, that's what the scripture actually says. Well,

01:01:52.400 that's not what historic Protestantism has ever said Sola Scriptura is. You do proper hermeneutics,

01:01:59.580 a biblical interpretation. You look at exegesis bringing out the meaning of the original words

01:02:04.300 in the Hebrew and the Greek. No, there is a right and wrong interpretation of scripture and that

01:02:09.180 plays into how we read it. But ultimately, Sola Scriptura is simply that scripture is the sole

01:02:15.340 infallible rule and faith of practice for the church. So it's not negating tradition. Protestants

01:02:21.200 have tradition. We have a longstanding tradition within our churches and we look at something like

01:02:26.360 the early church fathers and we see the value in those perspectives as a branch. Protestantism

01:02:34.200 being a branch of the long family history of the tree of historical Christianity. So that's simply

01:02:40.860 what it is. It's that we look at scripture as something that is ontologically unique because

01:02:45.160 it comes from God and nothing else comes from God. Thank you for that. Okay, last question should be a

01:02:51.100 pretty easy one. What is your favorite book of the Bible and why? That should be an easy one,

01:02:57.660 shouldn't it? You know, I think there's so much going on in the Bible in that, here, let me throw

01:03:06.960 you for a loop. I'll give you two. Okay. Leviticus and Hebrews. Okay, Leviticus. I don't know if I've

01:03:12.000 ever gotten that answer. Okay. I think, and them together. And in that, when you read the book of

01:03:18.520 Hebrews, the author of Hebrews is really trying to communicate to you. I mean, what we think he's

01:03:24.380 doing is he's writing to a group of Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but they're kind

01:03:29.240 of having this identity crisis because their communities are ostracizing them for believing

01:03:35.060 in Jesus as the Messiah. And so there's a temptation to go back, go back to this temple, go back to the

01:03:41.320 priests, go back to the sacrificial system, go back to the history of the patriarchs of Moses, of the

01:03:47.020 angels. And the author of Hebrews goes through this exhaustive list of explaining why Jesus is the

01:03:53.440 fulfillment of all those things. And why I connect that with Leviticus is because if you go back and

01:03:58.740 read Leviticus, I know some people have a lot of trouble going back and reading, you know, the

01:04:02.740 Mosaic law, and it can seem tedious. But I think if you read it within the lens of understanding that

01:04:08.960 those things are pointing to Jesus, that the ethics of the law are an outpouring of God's goodness in

01:04:15.960 communicating who he is via his character to us, and then seeing how that is fulfilled in Christ,

01:04:22.380 I think it changes your perspective in that a lot of these things change from commands to promises.

01:04:28.440 You know, we are able to live out the image of God in us because we obey the commands. And

01:04:35.620 now it's, you know, you can love your neighbor as yourself. You know, you're not obligated to love

01:04:42.860 your neighbor as yourself. And you love your neighbor as yourself because God in his character

01:04:47.860 exists in a set of living, loving relationships in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

01:04:52.380 And so now you can live out the image that you bear as an image bearer of your creator in doing

01:04:59.460 that. Or, you know, don't, you know, murder because God is not a murderer. So therefore live out that

01:05:05.960 image in you. And so when you read Leviticus and you see these ways that God is trying to section out

01:05:12.060 Israel as his chosen people, there's a reason for that. And ultimately it culminates in sandwiched between 0.97

01:05:18.740 the two sections of the holiness code right in the middle of Leviticus is Yom Kippur, the day of

01:05:23.800 atonement. And we see within Jesus as the author of Hebrews dictates that Jesus is the fulfillment of

01:05:31.100 that. That as the prophets say, you know, the, the, the blood of bulls and goats are not going to

01:05:37.900 cleanse you. But the reason why you do that is because remember the priest was your butcher. You know,

01:05:45.040 they didn't just sacrifice these animals and then throw them in the ditch. They ate them. And there

01:05:49.720 was a recognition that this gives its life so that you can live to give you sustenance in life. And

01:05:56.600 Jesus gave his life so that you can live. And so this, this picture, the shadow, as the author of

01:06:03.440 Hebrews calls it, is a fulfillment of that ultimately in the person of Jesus Christ, who is the true

01:06:10.380 fulfillment. He's the thing that's casting the shadow that all these laws, all these prescriptions,

01:06:15.600 which in their time had a purpose and are good, they are meaningful because now you understand what

01:06:23.600 they were pointing to all the way along. So I think, you know, oftentimes we can look at the

01:06:28.620 Mosaic law and we can see it as confusing and we can see it as kind of, well, what's going on here,

01:06:34.480 this ancient Near Eastern law code. But I think when we read it through the lens of Christ,

01:06:39.340 we can truly say how in its true and greater fulfillment, all of these things which were

01:06:45.360 meant to set Israel apart are fulfilled in now we see Jesus fulfills them in a way that we can't 0.93

01:06:52.900 and never could. And then we're set apart because Christ is truly set apart, that it's not about what

01:06:58.060 we can do, but it's about what he has done. And that the one who steps down from the highest highs

01:07:03.980 into the lowliest of lows in the person of Jesus and lives as a servant changes the fundamental way

01:07:10.000 that we can live in that our final goal is to stand before the Father and hear, well done,

01:07:14.980 good and faithful servant, living a servant life out like Jesus did.

01:07:18.940 Amen. Well, thank you so much. You know, I often ask some of my guests to share the gospel at the

01:07:25.580 end of the episode, but you really just did that. And so I appreciate that so much. And now I'm going to

01:07:32.120 have to read Leviticus and Hebrews at the same time because I've never done that together. And so

01:07:36.500 I'm going to go do that. Les, thank you so much. Where can people find you?

01:07:41.380 Yeah, well, the first and foremost place you can find me is either at WesleyHuff.com

01:07:46.360 or at ApologeticsCanada.com. So as I mentioned, I work for Apologetics Canada

01:07:50.900 as a regional director. And so if you want to know about what we're doing,

01:07:54.480 any of the projects that we are participating in, I have an ongoing video docu-series that I write

01:08:00.040 and produce that we're going to be adding episodes to. But the first two episodes of the Can I Trust

01:08:04.200 the Bible series can be found on the Apologetics Canada website and on the YouTube page that can

01:08:09.740 be linked from the website. And then if you want to see any of the articles or the videos or the

01:08:15.600 infographics that I make, those are all available at WesleyHuff.com.

01:08:19.660 Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And I just love, I loved hearing your story and hearing about how

01:08:27.040 quickly everything came together with the Joe Rogan interview and millions and millions of people

01:08:33.140 hearing you defend scripture and how obviously the Lord had been preparing you for that and so many

01:08:40.840 unseen and unknown ways. And while everything seemed so precipitous from your perspective,

01:08:47.000 from the outside perspective, you know, as we've already covered, like God and his sovereignty had

01:08:52.340 been preparing you every day for that moment. And I just love to see that. I love to see that. So

01:08:57.900 thank you for what you do. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me on. It's been a pleasure. Thanks.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - February 11, 2025

Ep 1138 ｜ Sharing the Gospel with Joe Rogan ｜ Guest： Wes Huff

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