Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1147 ｜ Human Egg Farms, Switched Babies & the Dark Web of Big Fertility

00:00:00.000 A woman in Georgia gave birth to the wrong baby. This is thanks to the mostly unregulated big

00:00:08.580 fertility industry. And unfortunately, Trump's recent IVF executive order might make this

00:00:16.260 problem worse. Today, we are talking with Them Before Us founder, one of our favorite guests,

00:00:22.540 Katie Faust. We will also be discussing the latest that has unraveled with Elon Musk,

00:00:29.600 Ashley St. Clair, and one of the other mothers of his children, what modern day polygamy looks like

00:00:38.060 and why children's rights matter. This is such a good and challenging conversation. I know you are

00:00:46.180 going to be inspired by it. So without further ado, here is Katie Faust.

00:00:59.600 Okay, actually, before we get into that conversation with Katie, I just want to let you

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00:02:26.020 Okay. Now, truly, without further ado, here is Katie Faust.

00:02:35.040 Katie, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. I think this is our first time in person

00:02:39.220 talking on the show, right? In studio, baby. I love it. Oh, it's so perfect. It's providential.

00:02:44.340 Okay. First, I want to get your take on this Trump executive order that euphemistically expands access

00:02:52.480 to IVF. Really, what it would do is it would enforce or force private insurers to cover the

00:02:58.980 cost of IVF. And it would also mean probably Medicaid expansion. So either way, we're being

00:03:04.500 forced to pay for IVF. And, you know, the pro argument is this is great. It makes more babies.

00:03:10.660 We love babies. Infertility is a disease, just like diabetes. Why shouldn't insurance cover it?

00:03:17.780 Your thoughts?

00:03:18.640 Well, I have so many thoughts. I hope that the executive order is not going to amount to much.

00:03:24.500 You know, to me, it looked like a way to say promises made, promises kept, you know, which

00:03:29.520 so you can, you know, chart it as a win. But I didn't see a lot of teeth. You know, it was like,

00:03:35.060 now we're going to gather comments and, you know, receive letters and suggestions from allies over

00:03:40.000 the next 90 days. And we'll see what comes of it. Because I actually was really surprised at the

00:03:45.420 high level of pushback that the Trump executive order received. I mean, lots of many pro-life

00:03:52.300 organizations and figures condemned it or critiqued it. I mean, you had mainstream conservative

00:03:58.680 organizations like the Family Research Council saying this is not the way to go. I mean,

00:04:02.220 you had the wife of the Secretary of Transportation saying this is not aligned with what it is that

00:04:09.780 you're trying to do, especially as it relates to make America healthy again. Yeah. And I was like,

00:04:13.940 good for them. To me, I'm like, that actually is a pretty significant shift in the conservative mood

00:04:18.860 over the last 12 months where, you know, in February of 2024, we saw the decision come down from the

00:04:26.160 Alabama Supreme Court in essence saying, hey, you can't kill these babies on ice that you can

00:04:31.540 charge the fertility clinic and a wrongful death claim. And Republicans came out in mass to say,

00:04:38.140 oh, we have to protect IVF. There's still some voices that are doing that, but many more that

00:04:41.940 are saying, I don't think this is everything that we think it is. So first of all, I was really

00:04:46.560 impressed by the level of cautious, gentle, no, that I saw online. Why is this executive order a bad

00:04:55.220 idea? Well, it's fine if you are a fertility doctor and it's fine if you're an egg seller or a sperm

00:05:01.980 seller. And it's fine for the people who want to create these children who don't really have any

00:05:07.540 moral guidance around that. It's not fine for babies. It's not fine for the majority of children

00:05:13.300 who won't make it through this process alive. And, you know, one of the ways that I sort of shock

00:05:17.720 people into that realization for those of us who consider ourselves Christians, conservatives,

00:05:22.100 and pro-lifers is to just say the best that we can estimate the IVF industry, the big fertility world

00:05:31.420 destroys probably four times the number of little lives every year than Planned Parenthood does.

00:05:37.380 Why is that? Because when you go into a fertility clinic, you're talking about dozens of little

00:05:43.660 lives that are, you know, on the chopping block possibly. Whereas if you go into an abortion clinic,

00:05:48.240 you're usually talking about just one, you know, Paris Hilton, when she creates IVF babies,

00:05:53.240 she's got 20 boys, but she doesn't have the girl that she wants, right? So what's going to happen to

00:05:58.460 those 20 boys? Well, they're going to be fought and discarded, donated to research or frozen forever.

00:06:05.940 And so that's what we're talking about here. We value, we love, we think that IVF children are worthy

00:06:12.260 of dignity and respect and protection. We just think that the 97% that don't make it through the

00:06:17.480 process alive should also be extended that level of protection.

00:06:21.640 Yeah. A lot of people just don't realize that, that there are so many more embryos created than

00:06:26.740 are ever transferred and certainly than ever survive. Now there are some people who say,

00:06:32.180 okay, but Katie, it is possible for a Christian couple to say, I'm going to use every embryo that

00:06:38.040 is created. We're not going to do genetic testing. That's something a lot of people don't know.

00:06:42.540 The vast majority of people going through IVF do genetic testing. So if that embryo has Down

00:06:47.800 syndrome, trisomy 13, 18, any kind of chromosomal abnormality, they're thawed and they are thrown

00:06:53.480 away like trash and only the quote unquote strong survive and are possibly transferred.

00:06:58.980 But for the Christian couple who says, well, we're not going to do that. And a lot of Christian couples

00:07:03.620 won't do that. Is that not an ethical option for IVF? And wouldn't it be good if through this

00:07:10.060 executive order, more couples like that have access to in vitro?

00:07:13.880 Okay. So let's look at it from the perspective of, let's, let's say we're not going to ban IVF

00:07:19.160 completely. Let's just ban the aspects of IVF that are very clear violations of the rights of

00:07:24.100 children. So you mentioned one of them, genetic screening, 75% of fertility clinics offer genetic

00:07:29.560 screening, sex selection, 73% of fertility clinics offer sex selection. And in our mind, we think,

00:07:35.620 well, this is just about infertile couples wanting to have babies. There's boutique fertility clinics

00:07:40.400 in Hollywood where 90% of the clientele do not suffer from infertility. They simply want to pick

00:07:46.400 the traits of their children, not just genetic screening, not just boy or girl, but you can pick

00:07:51.620 the eye color of the child that you want and not just any eye color, right? You can create or select

00:07:58.800 the specific version of blue eyes that you want. There's like five different options in terms of

00:08:04.320 what kind of blue eyed child that you want. And so all of these options are available to

00:08:10.420 IVF customers. Um, so that's a problem because if you do want to go into this with a pro-life pro-child

00:08:18.560 ethic with a Christian ethic, you're not going to have the support of your doctors. And I've talked to

00:08:24.160 a lot of different, um, Christians who have gone through this, many that have surplus embryos, many that

00:08:30.060 did succeed in implanting all of them. But the ones that said, we went into this with pro-life

00:08:35.080 convictions, we had to argue against all of these different screenings and testings. And even then,

00:08:41.020 a couple of them have said, you know, they grade embryos. So even if they do make it through the

00:08:46.380 genetic screening process, even if they have, you know, only kept the sexes that they want, or,

00:08:52.920 or they're willing to keep both sexes, um, they still have to battle their doctors in terms of

00:08:59.180 saying, we want to implant all of them. Um, we don't want to grade them. We actually want the C

00:09:04.120 and D grade embryos kept alive as well. And a lot of the times the doctors in the clinics will say,

00:09:09.400 that's a bad idea. Why is that? It's because the only thing that they are required to report

00:09:15.400 because big fertility operates virtually regulation free. There's no requirement to track or report what

00:09:22.760 they do with these little lives. But the one thing that they do have to report is their success rates,

00:09:27.000 their implantation rates, their live birth rates of the children, the fraction of children who are

00:09:31.240 actually transferred to the womb, they have to report the percentage of live births. And if you

00:09:37.040 are going to retain or implant the lower grade embryos, you are going to downgrade their live birth

00:09:45.260 rate. And so if you want to go into this with a pro-life mentality, you're not going to have the

00:09:50.180 assistance or the help or the support of your doctor. First sponsor for the day is masa chips.

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00:11:28.680 And I just wanted to look up that claim that you made about certain fertility clinics offering the

00:11:40.400 option for picking eye color. And it's really easy. I just typed in fertility clinic eye color.

00:11:45.580 The Fertility Institute, choose your baby's eye color, offers eye color screening and selection.

00:11:50.160 So that's like you're buying a car add-on. Like, do you want chrome hubcaps? Like,

00:11:54.720 that's basically what's going on. And then the next one, simplefertility.com. This is another

00:12:01.380 website that connects you to different clinics. Eye color selection begins with examining

00:12:06.540 your personal and family eye color genetics history as parents-to-be. And there's even an

00:12:12.940 article about this in the LA Times, which you're talking about, that fertility treatments may have

00:12:18.040 started to help high-risk families avoid deadly genetic traits. Again, that's just eugenics.

00:12:23.340 But now it has moved into this industry, especially in very rich areas where people are picking what

00:12:31.020 they believe is going to be the strongest, smartest, most successful, most attractive child.

00:12:37.560 And while some people may say, well, that's not what Christian couples are doing. That's not what

00:12:42.860 most people are doing. The fact is when we talk about IVF access, it includes that.

00:12:49.020 It includes the eugenics, and there's really no way to exclude that from the conversation.

00:12:57.200 Well, there are countries that have attempted to do it. There are some countries that, for example,

00:13:00.960 ban sex selection. Germany is one of them. Germany also bans genetic screening because Germany knows

00:13:06.460 what eugenics looks like and doesn't want to go back there. There's a lot of countries that will say,

00:13:11.500 you can't just create endless numbers of embryos. We're going to limit it to the number that you

00:13:16.060 actually have a possibility of actually implanting. And let's just be very clear when you're talking

00:13:21.780 about, we're going to survey your heritable traits. We're going to figure out eye color,

00:13:26.500 all of this. You're not saying, let's then create an embryo with that specific shade of blue eyes.

00:13:31.660 You're saying, let's create 20 embryos. We will test all of them. The two that are the right sex and

00:13:37.700 that have that right eye color, those are the ones you will keep. And we will discard and donate to

00:13:42.560 research the other 18. And so we're not talking about creating a custom order child. We're talking

00:13:47.340 about making an explosion of little lives and discarding and destroying the ones that don't

00:13:52.620 match our specific outlined criteria. Yes. And an executive order like this,

00:13:57.680 if it actually came to fruition, you said this itself doesn't have teeth, but even just talking

00:14:02.320 about the accessibility to IVF in general, which is already a lot in the United States, uniquely a lot.

00:14:08.820 It also includes the two men or the two women who are purposely creating the fatherless or motherless

00:14:17.060 child or the single man or the single woman. All of this would be included in an order like this,

00:14:22.380 right? Well, I think the executive order was written carefully to say, we want to help mothers and

00:14:26.760 fathers welcome children. But the truth is that once you are making a baby in a Petri dish,

00:14:32.220 it's very easy to use somebody else's sperm or somebody else's egg. So it's very hard to say,

00:14:37.800 we are going to tailor these guidelines, these regulations in a way that only allows married

00:14:44.440 husbands and wives to use these kinds of technologies. Once you are taking that function

00:14:49.060 outside of the sexual act, it is just as easy. I mean, this is why we actually have a variety of

00:14:54.300 fertility fraud cases that are taking place across the country today, because somebody thought they're

00:14:58.960 using my husband's sperm or this specific donor. And it ended up being the fertility doctor who was using

00:15:04.360 his own sperm. And so it's very hard to say, we are going to keep IVF and we're going to exclude

00:15:11.040 all of these other really dangerous, really damaging possibilities. And I would say one of those is

00:15:17.980 using a third party to create children. How often does that happen? We don't exactly know because big

00:15:24.560 fertility won't tell us, but estimates range between a third to two thirds of the 90,000 children a year

00:15:31.960 that are born through IVF are also the very few that do make it through the process alive.

00:15:36.800 You know, 30 to 60,000 are going to lose their mother or father in the process.

00:15:41.020 Sometimes they will go home to a home where there is a mother and father present. Oftentimes they're

00:15:46.000 going to go back to a household where there is no mother or father there at all. So, I mean,

00:15:50.320 this is an industry that absolutely is not thinking about the best interest of the child. They're thinking

00:15:55.620 about the bottom line and unfortunately subsidizing it through insurance or through government

00:16:00.780 tax credits or whatever is only going to increase child victimization.

00:16:04.680 Yes. And many of those embryos go to the freezer and there are about, I think, 2 million

00:16:09.940 frozen embryos, souls on ice right now in the United States, really with an unknown future. I saw

00:16:17.460 a video of a woman. It's going around again. It's a young woman on TikTok. She seems, I'm sure you've

00:16:22.860 seen this.

00:16:23.480 I'm so glad you brought this up because I think I just watched it this morning.

00:16:26.080 Yes. I'm sure a lot of people sent it to you like they sent it to me. And actually,

00:16:29.320 when I initially did a response to her video like a year ago, she personally got very upset,

00:16:35.800 reached out to me. She said, you know, I was an IVF baby. I was selected first. We all came from the

00:16:42.420 same batch, conceived at the same time, made at the same time. She was first, her sister was second,

00:16:47.700 but she still has siblings that are 30 years old on ice. And she was saying, I want to know what it

00:16:53.960 would have been like to have a little brother because those are boys. I don't know if her,

00:16:58.120 you know, her parents wanted girls or what, but they're boys. I want to know what a little brother

00:17:02.880 would be like. What if when I got married and I had kids, I transferred one of my brothers to also

00:17:08.980 be my son. And I know she's talking hypothetically and probably isn't thinking of the consequences,

00:17:14.300 but it shows me one of the consequences and the brokenness created in IVF. What are your thoughts on

00:17:20.680 that? What was interesting to me about the video that she just put out that I saw today. So I think

00:17:24.860 it's more recent is she said, you know, what's so weird is that some random guy, some technician

00:17:30.300 decided that I would be born first, even though I'm a virtual twin with my younger sister who was

00:17:36.900 born three years later. Isn't that weird? Like that he got to decide that I would be the older sibling

00:17:41.720 and not her as the older sibling. So I think that that kind of presents a bit of an ethical

00:17:46.880 challenge for the Christians who say, we're going to use every embryo. Okay. So great.

00:17:50.600 You're using every embryo, but do you understand the kind of existential questions that these kids

00:17:57.620 are going to be asking? Why was I the one that was chosen? Why was I the one that was, you know,

00:18:02.420 selected for implantation? Why was I the one that was given, given a chance at life? And then maybe

00:18:06.540 if there is one or two or three that were implanted over the course of years, why is it that a random

00:18:11.540 guy whose name I'm never going to know decided the birth order of those of us, even though genetically

00:18:16.180 we're all the same age. I mean, like what we're doing through reproductive technologies right now

00:18:20.620 is forcing the next generation, these kids to have to answer questions that no human has ever had to

00:18:26.880 ask before. It is so out of step with the nature of what it means to be human from, you know, creating

00:18:32.980 children who might have dozens or hundreds of half siblings. I mean, that actually is like outside of

00:18:39.240 like Genghis Khan, right? We really have not seen anything like that before. Um, this questioned

00:18:44.780 about like, I am being adopted by somebody like, cause I'm, I think embryo adoption is the only

00:18:51.480 child honoring option. If you have exhausted all the other ways of trying to rescue these surplus

00:18:57.760 embryos. But even then the kinds of questions that these kids are going to ask, right? When they do find

00:19:03.800 their birth parents and they realize they were raised in Beverly Hills. I was raised in a, like a little,

00:19:08.380 you know, two bedroom, one bath condo. And I look more like my genetic parents than the three that

00:19:14.180 they chose to keep. I mean, like the kinds of questions that these kids are going to be asking

00:19:18.580 are things that I don't think that we're prepared for. I don't think we've thought it through.

00:19:22.420 Right. Yeah. I saw in one of the replies to a post about the Trump IVF executive order,

00:19:29.720 I took a screenshot of it on X and she said, I had a really good friend who had leftover embryos

00:19:34.920 and they decided to adopt them out to a gay couple thinking that that was the most redemptive

00:19:41.780 option. And I just think about that child who not only doesn't have the opportunity to know their

00:19:47.200 genetic parents, but because of the luck of the draw doesn't get to grow up with a mom. Right.

00:19:53.500 And it's, I would say that's even different than like the regular adoption of a child after

00:19:58.700 birth. I mean, there is a lot of so many questions we are causing a child to bear at such a young age

00:20:06.860 because of adult desire. Yeah, exactly. And I honestly, that is what these reproductive technologies

00:20:11.440 do in almost every case. And you could even say in every case, but I'm, I'm willing to say in almost

00:20:16.200 every case, you're asking children to sacrifice so you can have something that you want. Yeah.

00:20:21.060 Maybe in your mind, it's minimal. Maybe in your mind, it's just a relationship with a birth mother,

00:20:25.560 even though they're coming home with me, their own genetic mother and father and no money changed

00:20:29.320 hands. You know, the altruistic surrogacy situation. What does the child lose there?

00:20:33.600 There's no big deal here. No, you are still asking children to lose the relationship with the only

00:20:39.400 person they know the day that they are born. So you can have something that you want. All of these

00:20:43.360 reproductive technologies are at bottom in injustice against children. It is always asking the weak

00:20:48.780 to sacrifice for the strong. It is always asking children, the most vulnerable, the smallest of all to

00:20:54.280 sacrifice for the grown, the strong, the capable, those of us that actually have the decision making

00:20:59.440 power, the ability to deal with hardship. We're saying, we don't want this hardship. We're going

00:21:03.960 to have you kids deal with the hardship instead. These are systems of injustice. And these are

00:21:08.760 technologies that bankroll off of injustice. Yep. And because I get this question a lot, and I've got my

00:21:15.660 own response for it, and you do too. I want to hear yours. For those who say, well, Katie, there's

00:21:22.440 also separation and a primal wound that's caused through adoption. You could call that quote unquote

00:21:28.420 baby buying. Someone is paying to be able to adopt that child. So are you against adoption too?

00:21:35.820 Yeah, it's a really important question. And, you know, as the former assistant director of the largest

00:21:41.420 Chinese adoption agency in the world, one of the things that I was responsible for was compliance

00:21:45.820 with international, federal, and state level standards. And I'll tell you what those three

00:21:50.080 things had in common. One of the main bright red lines in adoption, whether you're talking about the

00:21:55.720 Hague inter-country adoption standards, or just what's going on in the state of Colorado, or the

00:21:59.440 state of California, or the state of Texas, is money can never go from adoptive parents to birth

00:22:06.640 parents. Okay? For example, my husband and I are adoptive parents. If any of the $25,000 that we

00:22:12.780 paid throughout the course of our adoption journey went directly to our son's birth mother, or birth

00:22:18.020 father, or birth family, according to international standards, that would no longer be an adoption.

00:22:23.960 That would be trafficking. If you're buying a child, if you are paying somebody specifically to

00:22:29.300 relinquish their parental rights and hand over the baby to you, that is no longer an adoption,

00:22:34.480 right? That's trafficking. So that's a very clear line in the adoption world. Yes, you spend a lot

00:22:41.740 of money on adoption. No, it does not go to the mother or to the birth father. It goes towards

00:22:47.080 the FBI to fingerprint you. It goes towards the home study agency to check the safety of your home. It

00:22:52.760 goes to the agency that might be making the arrangements or bringing together birth mom and

00:22:58.240 adoptive parents. It goes to all of the training and the post-placement support that you receive.

00:23:02.740 It does not go directly to the birth parent. So what is going on in big fertility? It is always

00:23:09.260 direct payments from the intended parents to the genetic parents and to the birth mother.

00:23:13.800 What is it that you are getting for your $2,000 when you buy that vial of sperm, right? Obviously,

00:23:20.320 it's the very specific genetic characteristics of 50% of your child, but it's also the guarantee that

00:23:27.340 that sperm donor never claims paternity. It is the guarantee that he will stay out of your child's

00:23:33.700 life forever. You are purchasing him saying, I give you my parental rights. So in that sense,

00:23:40.380 and it's the same thing in commercial surrogacy, you are paying a woman to preemptively sign over

00:23:46.000 her maternal rights to the child. That is what the money is going for. So if you're looking at it from

00:23:52.000 the perspective of the best practice of adoption that has been established internationally, nationally,

00:23:56.960 and at the state level over the course of decades, then big fertility is engaging in baby selling in

00:24:03.580 all of the, in every way that you can say that this is baby selling. It simply is. In terms of the loss,

00:24:09.680 the wound that children experience, yes, adopted kids often have a wound. And one of the things that

00:24:18.840 I get, I get a lot of responses when I go out and I talk about the distinction between big fertility

00:24:24.020 and adoption. As I say, both of them begin with a familial wound, right? But adoption seeks to mend

00:24:29.880 the wound. Big fertility inflicts the wound. But adoptive parents come up to me and say, thank you

00:24:35.860 for saying that. Because a lot of them statistically, adoptive mothers, adoptive fathers, statistically spend

00:24:42.700 more time with their children than the average family does, invest more money in their children than the

00:24:47.680 average family does. Adoptive mothers and fathers statistically have more stable marriages, and

00:24:52.600 they tend to be more highly educated than the general population. And yet, adopted children

00:24:59.720 disproportionately struggle in school with externalizing behaviors. Why is that? Well, it's

00:25:07.620 because we've asked them to do something that children should never have to do. And that is lose a

00:25:12.280 relationship with the only person they know the day that they're born and reattach to biological

00:25:16.220 strangers. And it looks as though that primal wound has an impact on them throughout the rest of their

00:25:21.540 life. So we have to make a distinction. There are tragic situations where children lose their mothers

00:25:27.340 or lose their parents. We mourn, and then we seek to right that wrong by placing children in adoptive

00:25:33.140 homes. But we do not use that loss as a justification to then intentionally create these legal or genetic

00:25:41.060 orphans so that we can purchase them on the open big fertility market.

00:25:44.780 Right. And it all goes back to worldview, understanding that we live in this sinful,

00:25:48.880 broken world, being able to say that a child that is adopted, they're in a situation that is a step

00:25:56.140 down from the ideal. The ideal is a loving, married mother and father. But because we live in a world that

00:26:03.780 is wrought with sin, we don't always get the ideal situation. So the next best situation is a married

00:26:09.120 mother and father that adopts that child. And adoption seeks to redeem a broken situation,

00:26:14.160 surrogacy, sperm, egg saline, IVF. It creates that broken situation as you have laid out so clearly

00:26:22.160 that you're placing the burden on the child in both situations, but one heals and one inflicts or seeks

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00:28:09.220 Another unforeseen consequence, or at least by a lot of people that you mentioned just a few minutes ago

00:28:16.480 is the accidental transferring of the wrong embryo into a mother. And there's this story,

00:28:25.660 I'm sure you've seen it going around, of a Georgia woman who is suing an IVF clinic after discovering

00:28:31.460 that the child that she gave birth to was not her biological child. It was very obvious the woman

00:28:36.540 is white, her baby is black. This mix-up led to a custody battle, which ultimately forced this woman

00:28:42.080 to give the baby to his genetic parents five months later. And we've got a little bit of her story

00:28:47.760 that is going around right now. Right now, it's not one. The actions of the fertility clinic

00:28:54.300 have come very close to destroying me, have left irreparable damage to my soul,

00:29:00.320 and ultimately left me questioning whether I should be a mom or not. I spent my entire life wanting to be

00:29:06.580 a mom. I loved, nurtured, and grew my child. And I would have done literally anything in my power

00:29:12.160 to keep him. My baby is not genetically mine. He doesn't have my blood. He doesn't have my eyes.

00:29:19.420 But he is and will always be my son. I'll never be the same woman. I will never fully heal or

00:29:24.860 completely move on. And part of me will always long for my son and wonder what kind of person he's

00:29:31.220 becoming. Your thoughts? Okay. So what's very interesting here is the narrative. And I think

00:29:38.360 that she actually said it. She said, in essence, I was a surrogate for another couple. And that's

00:29:43.860 right. But it's very interesting because when we're looking at these other sort of surrogacy

00:29:47.640 arrangements, everyone will say, well, it's no big deal. She's not the mother. She's not the genetic

00:29:51.820 mother. She's not the mother. She's the oven for somebody else's bun, right? The real mother is the

00:29:57.000 genetic mother. But look at her. Look at her. She is a mother in a very, very real sense of

00:30:03.680 the world. She bonded with the baby. She grew the baby. She loved the baby. And then she

00:30:08.580 continued that. She continued and capitalized on and only reinforced that bond through five

00:30:13.460 months of cuddling and breastfeeding and the oxytocin exchange that takes place between

00:30:19.540 mother and baby whenever there's skin-to-skin contact, which is so much more likely to happen

00:30:23.140 with mothers than fathers. So now she is rightly mourning this child that she gave up. And it's

00:30:29.380 interesting because she formed that bond, even though she was not genetically related to the

00:30:34.060 child. So I understand why she's saying, this destroyed me. Like, I'm never going to get over

00:30:38.000 this. Right. You have lost a baby in the sense of it really was hers in an incredibly real sense,

00:30:45.340 a sense that we have to diminish and ignore if we are going to continue with the fiction that

00:30:51.720 surrogacy is no big deal and that the birth mother is inconsequential to the later thriving

00:30:58.360 and development of the child. The other thing that I will point out is, you know, because I think

00:31:03.340 that this is, this is actually a very good illustration here. She had dozens of other

00:31:07.800 relationships, right? She had lots of other people in her life. I'm sure that she's got parents. I don't

00:31:11.980 think that she's married, but she had lots of friends probably connecting with her and supporting her

00:31:15.680 through this process. And yet losing that one baby pretty much destroyed her. That she only had

00:31:22.300 known for a few months. That she'd only known for a few months. And yet we think that it's no big deal

00:31:27.580 for the child to lose their relationship with a birth mother, even though they don't have dozens

00:31:32.160 of relationships. At that point during gestation, at the moment of birth, that is the only relationship

00:31:38.460 children have. And yet we have to believe that it's no big deal to sever the baby from that birth

00:31:44.420 mother relationship so we can hand them over to the commissioning adults. So I was like, I think

00:31:49.560 everybody looks at her and goes, Oh my gosh, this is so awful. Of course she bonded with the child and

00:31:54.300 like, wow, this is so harrowing, so awful and so devastating. Right. Now apply that to every other

00:32:00.400 surrogate situation and say, if she felt that kind of distress, how much more so the baby who has to

00:32:06.280 lose the only person they know. And the reasoning or the defense against what you're saying, I think

00:32:11.380 is so asinine. When I hear people say, well, the baby can't talk or you don't remember, you don't

00:32:17.480 remember being born. You don't remember being in your mother's womb and the baby will never, you know,

00:32:23.200 articulate that he misses something that just because someone does not have the verbal capacity to

00:32:29.260 explain their trauma or their brokenness or why they feel distress does not mean it's not

00:32:35.900 there. That is actually like the definition of exploitation is when people who do have power

00:32:42.180 take advantage of someone's incapability, disability, vulnerability to get what they

00:32:47.240 want. And because that person can't complain, we say they're fine. That's cruel.

00:32:52.720 You had Olivia Morrill on your show. She is one of the only surrogate born children who is publicly

00:32:59.020 speaking out right now. She was raised by incredibly wealthy parents, a mother and father,

00:33:04.000 exactly, and split time between Florida and Paris. So materially, she was totally set. But she talks

00:33:10.660 a lot about how she was always afraid to be abandoned. And it led to, she's been very public

00:33:16.680 about this, it led to being overly obsessively clingy, not just with, you know, her mother and

00:33:22.040 father, but also her friends. She was petrified that she was going to be abandoned by everybody all

00:33:26.820 through life. So tell me, she doesn't remember, right? Sure. She can't articulate it, but that

00:33:33.120 has left a wound in her that has manifested itself all throughout her life. And, you know, she talks

00:33:39.600 very openly and wonderfully about her husband and how he, he was the person that like a rock said,

00:33:45.360 I will not leave. You can, you can rage, you can, you know, in a mercurial sense, go up and down.

00:33:50.900 I'm not going anywhere. And it stabilized her, but all throughout her as an adolescence, I mean,

00:33:55.980 she had self-harming behaviors that she talked about because she just felt insecure in all of

00:34:00.860 her relationships. This is not uncommon actually for adopted children either. You know, my husband

00:34:06.920 and I have, um, our youngest is adopted, incredible kid, totally belongs with us. But, you know, when I,

00:34:13.540 we were just traveling last week and we were leaving a hotel room and I said, oh my gosh, run in and,

00:34:18.780 you know, grab this book because I need it downstairs. And he goes, don't leave without

00:34:23.080 me. Don't leave without me. I mean, he's 15. And I'm like, I'm going to be right here. I just need

00:34:28.400 you to grab the book because you were the last one and you know where it is, but I'm not leaving.

00:34:32.320 And so sure. He doesn't remember the day when he was born and lost the only woman that he knew,

00:34:39.920 but yet he still, even after being with our family for 13 years is not exactly sure that it's not going

00:34:47.780 to happen again. So again, sometimes children lose their mother or father to tragedy and the proper

00:34:54.200 response is to mourn. But that is not the reason why kids are losing their mother and father these

00:34:59.880 days. They're losing it intentionally. They're losing their mother or father commercially. They're

00:35:04.740 losing their mom and dad because we are normalizing motherless and fatherless homes. And then we're

00:35:09.560 calling it progress. Right. And even with the baby, if the baby stays with, say it's a situation where

00:35:15.100 you have two women. And so say the baby stays with the genetic mom and the mom who is actually

00:35:21.800 carrying him. Sometimes it's the same egg, same, you know, womb. Sometimes it's not, but they're

00:35:26.340 getting sperm from a sperm cellar. I talked to Ross Johnston. I know, you know, I think who Ross

00:35:32.040 Johnston is. Yeah. He's been on the show, you know, he, it was donor conceived. So, so they say that's

00:35:38.720 what they call it. But of course, part of his testimony, he was raised by a mom who had a lot of

00:35:43.740 different lesbian relationships, I think, growing up. But he loves his mom. His mom loves him. Yeah.

00:35:48.740 Cared for him. Yeah. And yet his distress growing up was, who is my dad? Where is my dad? Where is

00:35:56.000 half of my genetic makeup? And of course, part of his testimony is realizing that he is a heavenly

00:36:00.220 father that he came from and who loves him and who created him. But still, we were all created

00:36:05.940 to have a mother and a father or to know our mother and father because everyone on earth has a mom.

00:36:10.660 We all have a mom and dad. Yeah. And anyway, I don't, I don't know where you want to go with

00:36:14.820 this conversation, but, um, it's, there's so, I mean, cause like I've done a couple of interviews

00:36:20.220 recently about Elon and you know, the situation with his now four different mothers of his children.

00:36:26.420 Um, and it was at least that we know of, yeah, that's right. Um, and so much of that, well,

00:36:31.800 she's set for life. Well, that baby's never going to need anything. Well, that, that kid's going to,

00:36:35.540 you know, be able to go wherever he wants, do whatever he wants. And I'm like, that is not what

00:36:39.020 kids want. Right. Money is not going to fill that hole. Right. Even just other adults in the life of

00:36:45.240 the child. Yeah. Isn't going to satisfy that longing to be loved by their own father. And it's

00:36:51.560 not a, I'll take you on a trip this weekend, or, you know, even I'll let you come with me to the

00:36:57.160 white house. It is. They actually need to serve long for, and have a right to their father's care,

00:37:02.480 attention, protection, not just provision, but investment, personal investment every day.

00:37:08.300 They're not made to split time in a 50, 50 custody arrangement. They're not made to just know the

00:37:14.340 identity through some kind of known donor. You know, when you've purchasing sperm through somebody

00:37:19.480 who's okay, being contacted after you're 18 years old, those are crumbs. Yeah. That's crumbs of what

00:37:25.700 children want and deserve. Yeah. They want and deserve both their mother and father loving them and

00:37:30.840 loving each other every day. Yeah. And funny thing is, that's also the family structure and

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00:39:06.400 fast. Go to americaschristiancu.com slash alley. America's Christian Credit Union is federally

00:39:14.300 insured by the NCUA americaschristiancu.com slash alley. I do want to talk about Elon Musk. That's

00:39:25.720 actually on my list of what I want to talk about. I did an episode explaining it, but there are

00:39:30.620 some updates. So for those who don't know the background, just go back and listen to last

00:39:34.980 week's episode because we don't have time to detail everything now. Basically, Ashley St. Clair,

00:39:39.680 conservative commentator, Elon Musk, they have a child, what is probably his 14th child as far as

00:39:45.240 we know. This was not an IVF situation. I don't know if everyone knows that they actually did have

00:39:49.720 a sexual relationship, but it was the intentional creation of a father that they knew Elon Musk wasn't

00:39:56.760 going to be married to Ashley and that they were going to raise this child together in the same

00:40:00.360 household, which is why I didn't congratulate. It's not because I hate any of these people. I actually

00:40:06.040 want the very best for them. I think their child is just as worthy of love as every other child that

00:40:11.320 has ever been born. However, because I knew this was intentional and contrived, congratulations just

00:40:17.480 seemed inappropriate. And before we move on to the update, I just want to get your thoughts on that.

00:40:22.020 I wrote an article about that called The Cost of Conservative Hypocrisy at World Magazine last week

00:40:27.440 because you did have very prominent conservatives, very prominent pro-lifers congratulating Ashley

00:40:32.540 St. Clair on the birth of the baby. And I think if I'm going to sort of steel man their position,

00:40:37.960 they're saying, we just think babies are wonderful. It's good to congratulate a woman for having a child.

00:40:42.960 We want them to feel welcome and loved here. And of course, a lot of those same voices also

00:40:48.600 congratulated Dave Rubin for having two intentionally motherless surrogate born babies. And I'm like,

00:40:55.980 okay, well, if this really is just about celebrating and welcoming a child, that's fine. But none of them

00:41:01.540 celebrated Lily Phillips' very temporary announcement that she was pregnant. It ended up

00:41:08.160 being a hoax, but Lily Phillips is the OnlyFans content producer who's left with a thousand guys

00:41:15.520 in a 24-hour period or something like that. There was nobody congratulating her for that pregnancy.

00:41:21.120 And so to me, it looks more like tribal protectionism. It looks like we will congratulate

00:41:25.900 the people that align with us politically if they're having a baby, but we'll condemn people

00:41:31.120 like Pete Buttigieg if he procures two motherless children through what I think actually was a

00:41:37.640 legitimate adoption, if I'm getting that right. But he hasn't been too clear on that. And so I actually

00:41:43.740 think there's a cost to not being verbally and morally precise about this. If you're going to

00:41:50.520 congratulate, congratulate, but say, let's be clear here. There is a cost to this child. Children

00:41:58.240 don't just need to know the identity of their father. They deserve to have their father married

00:42:03.860 to their mother so they have access to their father every day. She is now seeking sole legal

00:42:09.000 custody of the baby. That's going to be devastating for the child. The baby is going to have their

00:42:16.880 development hampered because they don't have the daily presence of a father. They're going to

00:42:20.980 experience what a lot of kids do with single or double moms, which is father hunger. They're going

00:42:25.780 to hunger for male love. And that's actually going to make them pretty susceptible to people who want

00:42:31.500 to get their attention without having the same level of protectiveness and investment in the baby as

00:42:36.740 their own biological dad would. So it's a tragedy. And obviously we want to support single mothers in the

00:42:43.840 sense of recognizing that they have chosen to do the hard thing by raising the baby alone. But especially

00:42:49.480 when you have a very high platform and you ostensibly say that you are for family values and you understand

00:42:55.800 the harms that that widespread single motherlessness has brought to our country. It deserves more than just

00:43:02.380 a congratulations that certainly looks like you are celebrating not just the child, but the

00:43:06.840 circumstances. Yeah. And I, you know, like I said, I didn't congratulate. I have talked to some of the

00:43:12.560 people who did congratulate and I do not question at all that they are pro marriage and that they are

00:43:19.680 anti-surrogacy and that they are pro-life and all of that. As you said, they really did see it as I'm

00:43:26.260 just congratulating the baby. They would not congratulate someone like Dave Rubin because they

00:43:31.860 would see that as congratulating baby stealing, but they would congratulate something like this. Whereas I

00:43:37.200 would say, okay, but the arguments that I saw from a lot of conservatives were it is always right to

00:43:42.300 congratulate the baby. Right. Well, I don't know if every situation and circumstance solicits a

00:43:48.760 congratulations. There are other things to say like, wow, that baby is precious and made in the image of

00:43:53.880 God. How can I help? Yes. Sometimes congratulations simply isn't appropriate and you don't owe people a

00:44:00.440 public congratulations, especially if it is going to cause any confusion. And I still like, you know,

00:44:07.420 I've gotten a lot of pushback on that stance, but I still, I stand by it. I think that is morally the

00:44:13.320 clearest, you know, stance to take when it comes to these kinds of public controversies.

00:44:19.540 There are two things that I crave from the people that I follow and I'm pretty selected. Well,

00:44:24.140 I follow a lot of people to see what they're saying, but there's very few people that I'll say,

00:44:27.660 I will follow you in terms of your example. But the people that I follow in terms of their example

00:44:32.520 have two things, whether they're pastors, whether they're political commentators, I want clarity

00:44:38.000 and I want courage. You don't need to give me all the jazz hands, right? You don't need to like

00:44:44.760 whip up a show that's like produced, you know, million dollar production or whatever. I want you to be

00:44:50.180 clear, especially biblically. What does the Bible say? How does it apply to today? Tell me what justice

00:44:56.940 looks like. And I want courage. I want you to say it regardless of the personal cost or the professional

00:45:03.180 cost. And I will tell you that we're seeing a next generation. We're seeing Gen Z absolutely desperate

00:45:10.100 for that kind of leadership. Yeah. Right. In the influencer space, in the political space, even in the

00:45:16.520 religious space, we are seeing Gen Z swing hard away from progressivism and towards conservatism, whether

00:45:22.940 it's conservative religiously, conservative politically. And I would argue that a lot of

00:45:28.360 that is because they have seen progressivism offer such vacuous options in terms of the moral options

00:45:35.080 for our life. They have tasted and seen the horrible fruits of family breakdown. They've tried all the

00:45:41.900 different sexual identities and seen that none of this is going to satisfy them. So they are returning to

00:45:46.580 church. I mean, I know this because I'm looking at the studies and, you know, there was just a report

00:45:51.320 that came out from the Times of London where they surveyed a thousand young people, Gen Zers,

00:45:55.160 and found that compared to their millennial counterparts, they were overwhelmingly rejecting

00:45:59.380 porn, rejecting anonymous hookups, and valuing marriage by twice as many points as millennials do.

00:46:05.640 But I'd also note because I sit in the back row of church at the longest pew to fit the 10 high

00:46:13.100 school boys next to me who go to Seattle public schools, many of whom who have not been raised in

00:46:18.320 Christian homes who come every day, not just to the service, but to come early for the Sunday school

00:46:24.320 class where we talk about abortion and hookup culture and dating done well and the real definition of

00:46:29.720 marriage and the harms of divorce. I mean, like this is a generation that is ready for somebody to tell

00:46:35.880 them the truth, especially about moral issues. And I just don't want these mega conservative

00:46:40.960 platforms to throw away their credibility because they're not being morally clear when somebody in their own

00:46:46.780 tribe, you know, makes an announcement like this. Yeah. It's really not that hard to say. I love so

00:46:52.680 much of what Elon Musk is doing and yet I want him to come to Christ and I want him at the very least

00:46:57.960 to represent a kind of responsible fatherhood that we want in politics and the conservative movement,

00:47:03.540 someone who is so close to Trump. But just to give people a little update on what is going on,

00:47:09.300 you mentioned Ashley is now suing Elon Musk for full custody of their son. We have more information

00:47:16.780 about the fact that he has only met his son a few times and actually just weeks before she announced,

00:47:22.320 hey, I had Elon Musk's kid five months ago. We're trying to get in touch with Elon Musk to figure out

00:47:28.700 our agreement and he's not responding. She actually like tweeted at him trying to get him to respond,

00:47:33.720 which was just very tragic. We also found out that he had just texted her apparently a few weeks earlier

00:47:41.040 saying we have a legion of babies to make. I want to knock you up again. So part of me,

00:47:46.100 I know that Ashley went into this clear eye knowing what she was going to do, but I'm sad.

00:47:51.360 I'm sad for her. I'm sad for this child. She also has another child from another man.

00:47:58.520 And I feel that she is probably in a lot of distress. And then we saw Grimes, who is another

00:48:05.520 baby mama. I don't know how else to say it. Mother of Elon's baby, his, you know, the one that he

00:48:11.140 actually brings to the White House. I think they have a few kids together. Actually, one of their

00:48:16.040 children is in some kind of medical distress, according to Grimes. And she is trying to get

00:48:21.700 Elon's attention on X. She said this, please respond about our child's medical crisis in response to just

00:48:28.560 one of Elon's random posts. I am sorry to do this publicly, but it is no longer acceptable to ignore

00:48:33.840 the situation. This requires immediate attention. If you don't want to talk to me, can you please

00:48:38.620 designate or hire someone who can so that we can move forward on solving this? This is urgent

00:48:45.100 Elon. I'm not giving any details, but he won't respond to text, call, or emails and has skipped

00:48:51.360 every meeting. And our child will suffer lifelong impairment if he doesn't respond. So I need him

00:48:55.860 to effing respond. And if I have to apply public pressure, then I guess that's where we are at.

00:49:01.160 So this is what happens when you make it your responsibility to repopulate the earth with a lot

00:49:06.500 of women. Yeah. I call this modern day polygamy because what you're seeing in terms of the effect

00:49:10.860 of the children is the same. You know, obviously the polygamist that many of us, especially in the

00:49:16.200 Christian world, are familiar with is the Old Testament patriarchs. You know, Abraham and Jacob

00:49:21.700 both famously, you know, had children with two different women. And then obviously there are

00:49:25.800 situations with David, situations with Solomon, where they had multiple wives. Interestingly,

00:49:31.380 none of those households are characterized by equity and love. It is not a situation of,

00:49:37.360 oh, you know, Jacob has four different wives. So there's more love for all the kids to go around.

00:49:42.120 It wasn't like that. There was more jealousy. There was more infighting. There was more battling

00:49:46.120 over resources and attention from their father. And that's exactly what we're seeing today.

00:49:51.380 Very interestingly, you know, Elon, you know, purchased a $35 million compound because he kind of

00:49:57.700 wanted to house all of the many of the women there. I did not know that. Well, Emily Jashinsky

00:50:03.760 brought it up for me when I was in chatting with her last week. And I was like, well, same. I didn't

00:50:07.700 know about it either. It's supposed to be a secret, but it's not. And so it sounds like Grimes

00:50:12.240 has not, is not there. Zillis is the wife of his second, the second mother of his children.

00:50:19.260 I believe that she's got twins with him. Grimes has not moved in yet. Twins and another one.

00:50:23.640 And she actually also had a baby in 2024. So banner year last year for Elon.

00:50:28.440 Okay. So she has three kids with him. Oh, all right. I thought it was just Grimes

00:50:31.720 that had it. Maybe. Oh no, she, that was 2022. Hard to keep track of.

00:50:34.900 I know. Hard to keep track, which I'm sure it is for Elon as well.

00:50:37.980 Yeah. And I mean, I look at like when Ashley chose to reveal that she was the mother of the

00:50:44.060 13th child of Elon that we know of. It was on Valentine's Day when he was meeting with

00:50:49.060 the Indian prime minister and he was flanked by, um, Zillis and two of their children.

00:50:56.020 Oh, I didn't know that either. Yeah. I mean, so I'm like, well, you know, it looks like

00:51:00.640 a vine for attention, right. Or a jealousy, even among the women. So let's just say though,

00:51:07.220 that any of these women or all of these women were willing to live at this $35 million compound.

00:51:13.160 Does it mean that the kids are going to be better off? Well, studies say no. Um, studies show

00:51:18.260 that anytime unrelated adults are sharing living spaces with children, uh, incidents of abuse and

00:51:24.380 neglect increase. Now I often talk about that in the context of, um, stepfathers or mothers live

00:51:30.960 in boyfriend, you know, because we've adopted this insane, like anti-human, um, talking point that,

00:51:38.980 you know, kids don't need a biological connection with their parents. They just need to be safe and

00:51:43.600 loved. Um, and I'm like, well, then why do we have any kind of screening for adoptive parents?

00:51:47.720 It's because social workers are not idiots and they know that it takes more than intending to

00:51:52.100 parent a child to actually ensure the child's going to be safe and loved. That's why adoptive

00:51:56.420 parents have to go through screenings and vettings and background checks and fingerprints and home

00:52:00.160 studies. Um, because there is such a risk to children when they're sharing living spaces with

00:52:04.740 unrelated men and women, obviously that risk is acute when it's an unrelated man. And I tell people,

00:52:11.480 if you don't believe me, Google the words mother's boyfriend and tell me what you find.

00:52:16.360 I just saw this awful story just to your point of these twin boys, 15 year old boys,

00:52:21.800 and I won't go into all the graphic details, but they were being horrifically tortured and abused.

00:52:28.540 Awful, awful. And I go to the, I go to the article and it doesn't say stepfather right away,

00:52:36.560 but when you see the ages of the father and mother, well, these are 15 year old boys. The

00:52:40.820 mother is about 42. Okay. That checks out. The father is only 32. Hmm. That doesn't really seem

00:52:47.100 to check out. You read more. It's a stepfather. Right. And of course that doesn't mean all step

00:52:51.080 fathers are bad. I know a lot of people out there saying your stepfather saved your life. We know

00:52:54.940 that we're just heroic step parents. Yes, absolutely. And praise God for that. That is another

00:52:59.640 example of redeeming a broken situation. But statistically, kids are at risk, whether it is

00:53:06.400 adoption, surrogacy, or whatever, statistically they're at risk when they're at a home with an

00:53:12.160 unrelated male. And, you know, sociologist Brad Wilcox, who I know you've had on the show,

00:53:17.080 will just point blank tell you the most dangerous place for a child to find themselves in America is

00:53:21.600 in the home of an unrelated man left to care for the child himself. Like it is the highest risk

00:53:27.280 when it comes to predictors for child abuse. Interestingly, having other women in the home

00:53:33.080 are not good for kids either. And there was a study done called the puzzle of monogamous marriage that

00:53:37.520 studied the risks of polygamy and polyamory, which let me just be clear. What is polygamy? What is

00:53:42.920 polyamory? It is unrelated adults sharing living spaces with kids. That's what it's always going to

00:53:47.600 be the inclusion of somebody who's not biologically related to the child. That study found that

00:53:53.020 stepmothers, unrelated women were 2.4 times more likely to kill children than the biological mom.

00:54:00.860 And then even if they aren't directly abusing, there is neglect or at minimum in attendance to

00:54:08.640 what's going on with the kid. And so accidental deaths in those homes where there's unrelated adults

00:54:13.560 increased by 15 to 77 times when there's an unrelated woman on the scene. And it's just because they don't

00:54:20.540 feel the same level of obligation to the kid, right? That's not my kid. I'm watching my kids

00:54:24.800 over here. There was three Princeton economists that studied households where the woman had both

00:54:31.280 a biological child and a stepchild. And they found that the stepmom took the stepchild to the doctor

00:54:39.360 less often, buckled their seatbelts less often, spent 5% less money on food on the unrelated child,

00:54:47.920 on the stepchild. So you could frame this as sin nature and that's probably good. But evolutionary

00:54:54.820 biologists have been studying this forever. They actually have a term for it and it's called the

00:54:59.800 Cinderella effect. It is that a child who is being raised by a step parent or the boyfriend or girlfriend

00:55:05.880 of the biological parent are going to be disadvantaged in ways where they are, to put it generously,

00:55:13.180 less connected to, less invested in, and less protective of the child.

00:55:17.300 Yes. You hear that story a lot. Gosh, that is heartbreaking. And it's just,

00:55:21.740 it's another indication that science is always catching up to God. If you would just read the

00:55:26.640 very first chapter of the first book of the Bible, we'd be golden.

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00:56:44.500 One other story in the news that I want to make sure to get your thoughts on,

00:56:48.160 and this goes under the category of unknown consequences of big fertility. Female egg farm.

00:56:57.300 Oh my gosh. Yes, that is. This was crazy. But this was so awful and so completely predictable.

00:57:03.200 Yeah. Yes. Keep going. Keep going. Well, I'll just give a summary and then I'll let you go off on it. So

00:57:07.760 the increasing demand of reproductive technology fueled by a patchwork of conflicting and non-existent

00:57:13.000 regulations has unsurprisingly led to the exploitation of women and children as they are

00:57:17.800 trafficked across the borders for product and profit. So this is according to the Daily Mail,

00:57:23.140 around 100 women have been kept as slaves on a human egg farm located in the Eastern European

00:57:28.800 country of Georgia run by a Chinese criminal organization. And so these eggs are being sold

00:57:35.420 all across the world. These women being pumped with drugs, being strapped down,

00:57:40.140 their eggs extracted, I'm sure without anesthesia. That's a very painful process.

00:57:44.460 And their eggs are being sold to willing buyers, probably at a pretty low price.

00:57:49.600 So that is literally happening. That's not a conspiracy theory. That is literally happening,

00:57:53.560 literally reported. And if this is one that we know about, I guarantee this is happening around

00:57:58.000 the world. Yeah. A hundred percent. Cause I think that the woman who escaped had to buy her freedom.

00:58:01.880 Like she had to pay a certain amount of money to get off the farm. And then she came back,

00:58:06.460 reported it. She's like prostitution. Yeah. I think that they rescued a few of the other women,

00:58:09.420 but yeah, what, what do we expect, right? When you want to make a lab made baby, you need three

00:58:15.720 things. You need sperm, you need egg, and you need womb. Sperm is very easy to get to, easy to access.

00:58:23.260 That's why it tends to be much more affordable. Eggs are much harder to get to. Women typically release

00:58:31.700 one a month. And so if you want to purchase a batch of eggs, women have to go through these medically

00:58:38.640 risky processes of injecting themselves with hormones and then hyper stimulating their ovaries

00:58:43.940 and then laparoscopically extracting them. And that is why human eggs are, you know, by weight,

00:58:51.500 one of the most expensive commodities on the planet. It's very, very hard to get to. And then the third

00:58:56.680 part is the womb. And that is actually harder to get to, right? It's harder to find women who will

00:59:02.020 then rent out their bodies for nine and a half months. And so we have seen, you know, I have a Google

00:59:06.560 alert, a surrogacy Google alert that just tells me everything that's been printed in the last 24

00:59:10.940 hours using the word surrogacy. And I'll tell you what, the number of times that surrogacy and

00:59:15.860 trafficking, surrogacy and trafficking, like populate those returns is amazing to me because

00:59:22.340 there's a high demand for wombs. Not as many people want to offer their wombs. And so you do have women

00:59:27.760 that are being captured, coerced, trafficked into being surrogates or illegal surrogacy rings being run

00:59:34.260 out of Cambodia so that they can feed what is often a huge demand in China. There's now a huge

00:59:42.060 underground market of surrogacy happening in the Philippines right now. You know, there was a great

00:59:45.780 documentary that came out on that about a couple of weeks ago. Same thing, right? There's a huge demand

00:59:51.460 for these specific female aspects of reproduction. And it stuns me because it's like everything that

00:59:57.660 women have to offer, every part of their body that is so special and distinct from men, there's a market

01:00:02.120 for that. You've got prostitution, right? Which is the marketplace for the female external reproductive

01:00:08.180 organs. You have a marketplace for eggs, right? Which is sort of that very precious, like gold

01:00:13.680 commodity that we have. And then you've got a marketplace for wombs. And, you know, I've heard

01:00:18.680 John Stone Street say, you know, whenever you put a price tag on something that is priceless, you

01:00:22.480 immediately cheapen it. Right? And that's what's going on right now. There's a huge demand. Eggs are

01:00:28.180 expensive. Wombs are expensive. So of course, we're going to try to, you know, traffic and cut

01:00:32.800 the cost wherever we can in both of those areas. Yes. I remember when the initial invasion of

01:00:39.140 Ukraine happened, and there were all these stories of poor women in Ukraine were being used as

01:00:44.020 surrogates for people in America, around the world, just because people can get it for cheaper in these

01:00:48.900 desperate, poor countries where these women are, they need money. And so they're paid $30,000 to,

01:00:54.520 you know, bear this child. And then, okay, their child was born. And wait, the parents aren't coming

01:01:00.280 to get the child. Well, it's not my child. I can't afford to keep this child. So these children were

01:01:05.540 basically in these orphanages, waiting for their parents in other parts of Europe or in America or

01:01:11.200 Canada to come get them. And while it's dangerous in Ukraine, and a lot of times those parents don't

01:01:16.180 necessarily feel a connection to that child, because they haven't even been around for their

01:01:20.120 gestation. And that's still something that's happening. These children are toddlers now,

01:01:24.360 and they haven't met their parents who paid for them to be born via surrogate.

01:01:30.960 You know, we often talk about how surrogacy is the, in surrogacy, the rich buy and the poor sell.

01:01:37.580 And so you're going to find active surrogacy markets in any countries where it isn't outright banned,

01:01:42.880 where there's economically vulnerable women. So we're seeing, you know, the Philippines,

01:01:46.740 like I mentioned, Mexico is now a huge hotspot for surrogacy. But Ukraine has 25% of the global

01:01:54.640 surrogacy market. In fact, I believe one specific fertility clinic in Ukraine has 25%. So I'm sure

01:01:59.920 there's others in Ukraine too. Like, shouldn't that make you scratch your head? Yeah. If a war-torn

01:02:04.640 country where women are losing their husbands to the front, to maybe death because they were at war,

01:02:12.140 if that's the place where women are signing up to be surrogates, shouldn't that make you question

01:02:18.040 whether or not we should be doing this? Right.

01:02:20.140 I mean, yet it's not. And of course it's the kids who suffer. You know, there was a situation,

01:02:25.100 baby Bridget, that was not picked up in Ukraine because she had a disability. The parents wouldn't

01:02:30.960 come and get her. So she was left there. According to the surrogacy laws, the baby didn't belong to the

01:02:37.520 surrogate. The baby couldn't be adopted because the child was stateless. So unfortunately, you know,

01:02:43.780 she has simply had to piece a life together without her biological parents, without anybody

01:02:49.360 that's even like claiming or adopting her. I mean, it's just incredibly, it's not just that it's unjust.

01:02:54.940 It is unjust. I believe that those parents went on to have two healthy surrogate babies with somebody

01:02:59.640 else so they could take home the product that they ordered, not the damaged goods that they got with

01:03:04.140 their first attempt. Yeah. That reminds me of the woman that I had on. You probably know her story.

01:03:09.840 Her name is Brittany. I think Jennifer Law originally connected me to her. She had been a surrogate in

01:03:14.900 the past. Everything went, you know, as planned. And then she was a surrogate for two gay men and she

01:03:20.320 was diagnosed with cancer in the middle of her pregnancy. And because she had to go through

01:03:24.860 chemotherapy and the doctor said, yeah, you should probably give birth early, but we can save the baby

01:03:29.120 and save you. It's totally possible, but this will be a preterm situation. The fathers said,

01:03:34.820 we don't want a preterm baby. We, you know, don't want to deal with all of the complications of that

01:03:39.300 preterm baby. Abort this child. You have to abort this child contractually because it's not yours.

01:03:44.740 It's ours. This is our choice. And so she was kind of, you know, a little blurry on what exactly

01:03:50.300 happened. It sounded like she induced labor at an early time and that they didn't save the life of a

01:03:55.380 child because she even offered, she said, I will adopt this child. Give me this child. Someone in

01:04:00.500 my life will take care of this child. I will care for this child. And because the dads so-called

01:04:06.080 had parental rights, they had the right to say, no, we don't want to adopt this child out. We want

01:04:12.700 this child to die. The mom said, do you want to come to the hospital while they're inducing labor?

01:04:17.180 Do you want the remains of the child? No, don't talk to us again. So this child was died,

01:04:22.300 you know, was killed or died, discarded like toxic waste. And the men moved on to another

01:04:29.940 surrogate to get a quote unquote healthy child with the, you know, the surrogate mom still,

01:04:36.600 I'm sure reeling from dealing with the emotional trauma that this caused. And again, that is one

01:04:43.460 story that we know. I guarantee you every anecdote that we are telling you today happens thousands and

01:04:49.820 thousands of times, both here and abroad. Well, and even when surrogacy goes well,

01:04:54.920 there's a cost to the child. So last week, Sam Altman announced that he had a baby and everyone's

01:05:01.080 like, wait, what? He's gay? What's going on? And apparently he married his boyfriend last year.

01:05:06.660 But he said, you know, something like, welcome to the world, little boy. You came early. So you're

01:05:12.240 going to spend some time in the NICU, but I've never been so in love or something like that.

01:05:15.400 And, you know, I quote tweeted him like, welcome to the world, motherless boy. You came early

01:05:20.780 because you're the product of surrogacy. And surrogacy often results in preterm birth and

01:05:25.700 preterm labor and all of the accompanying risks that go along with a baby that is not able to

01:05:30.460 fully develop. And somebody is like, wait a second, why are surrogate born kids more likely to be

01:05:36.700 preterm? And the answer is IVF is actually a risk factor for preterm birth, right? There's something

01:05:44.040 about making a baby in a laboratory, whether it's because you are selecting the sperm and injecting

01:05:49.420 the sperm into the egg or something about the process of like exposing them to light or the

01:05:54.520 freezing or the thawing or whatever it is. But IVF babies are high risk babies. They just always are.

01:05:59.160 And they're more susceptible to preterm birth. Number two, there is something Jennifer Law has spoken

01:06:05.460 about the risk of genetic dissimilarity that when the woman is carrying a baby who's not genetically hers,

01:06:11.660 there does, that does seem to trigger some kind of immunological response of, of rejection,

01:06:17.340 or at least, you know, the pregnancy is not going to go smoothly as it should. I think that there's

01:06:23.160 also some placental development challenges that go along with surrogate pregnancies. And so like,

01:06:28.500 even if, you know, the birth, the mother is happy, the surrogate is happy, the commissioning parents

01:06:33.280 are happy. And if the child is born alive, there's still risks to the child. There's still medical risks.

01:06:37.720 Preterm births is a big one. Yep. You know, I read the other day, I did not know this,

01:06:42.980 that when IVF is used specifically for male infertility, so for whatever it is, he's,

01:06:50.080 he doesn't have enough sperm, his sperm isn't mobile. And so they're literally, you know, just

01:06:54.320 as they always do. And in vitro, they're putting the sperm and the egg together to make sure they are

01:06:58.700 conceiving. There is a 66% increase in the, in the risk of a disability, a mental disability,

01:07:07.720 and especially autism, because I'm not saying that, well, you should just get over the fact that

01:07:14.480 you're infertile, man. Hopefully there are, you know, natural ways to try to increase your fertility,

01:07:19.500 but you know, like your body is telling you something. There is a reason why that sperm

01:07:24.440 cannot get to that egg that is telling you something about your genetic abilities,

01:07:29.240 your ability to reproduce. For the people who say, trust the science, they don't believe what

01:07:34.300 science has to tell them about marriage and reproduction. So I am the mother of two high

01:07:38.840 school boys. So that means that I spend half of my time looking at Instagram reels and memes

01:07:43.400 that they send me. And, you know, one of the ones is like the picture of the sperm,

01:07:48.020 like making their way through the fallopian tube and like finally seeing the egg and then the battle.

01:07:51.840 Like, which one is good? This is a video that you have been sent. Oh my gosh. There's so many

01:07:56.260 videos like this. So many videos. Right. And it is like, okay, finally the sperm, like, and it's

01:08:01.940 always set to like Rocky music. Okay. So the sperm finally like penetrates the egg, like the new life

01:08:07.460 is created. And then it's something like, just remember you were always the product of a winning

01:08:11.860 sperm or something. But the reality is there is a sort of natural selection process that is going to

01:08:17.960 allow the fittest sperm, the strongest sperm to make it through that gauntlet of biological challenges

01:08:25.200 that the, the female body will throw up to fertilization by design. You know, there's a

01:08:31.720 good reason to not have us determine which sperm is injected into the egg, but allow some level of

01:08:38.200 fitness to guide that. And like you said, sometimes, you know, I had woman, woman comment on

01:08:43.480 one of the millions of IVF posts that happened. And she said, you know, everybody, every woman that I

01:08:48.980 know, her case, this isn't the cases that I know of, but she said almost all the people that I know

01:08:54.420 who used IVF, the women were extremely overweight and fertility was a problem for them. And we do know

01:09:00.780 that things like obesity can be a hindrance to fertility, to conception. And so it just speaks to,

01:09:06.940 and I think that that has been some of the objection to the Trump executive order,

01:09:10.260 especially from the people who are on the Maha train, is they're like, why aren't we looking

01:09:15.240 at the underlying causes of infertility, right? Why is it that infertility is such a big problem

01:09:20.840 today? Why is it that sperm count has dropped 50% for men overall in the last 50 years? And the answer

01:09:27.760 is there's a lot of environmental causes, a lot of pollutants, a lot of chemicals in our diet,

01:09:32.760 in our environment that is making it harder for people to conceive naturally. And so if we're going to

01:09:38.240 do Maha, let's do Maha, but let's not circumvent. Instead of saying, okay, the infertility is a

01:09:44.020 blinking light on the dashboard of, of reproductive health saying there's something wrong here.

01:09:48.780 You're just circumventing, you're turning the light off, right? You're going to like make that

01:09:52.740 happen outside of the natural processes. Why don't we really investigate and heal the problem to begin

01:09:57.240 with instead of fueling this industry that rampantly victimizes children? Yes. And we've had women on

01:10:02.800 this show who have heard from their doctors, your only chance at getting pregnant is IVF.

01:10:06.740 And they just didn't take that for an answer and they dug deeper. And in some cases I have friends

01:10:12.660 who truly they can't get pregnant. And so they've gone the adoption route, which is just beautiful.

01:10:17.140 But then I've had others like the guest I had on my show who went the natural fertility route and it

01:10:22.280 took longer. They had to dig deeper. They had to make lifestyle choices, both her and her husband and

01:10:28.060 all kinds of digging that sometimes is expensive because unfortunately insurance doesn't cover that.

01:10:32.520 Like if we're going to expand insurance coverage, maybe let's move in the functional direction.

01:10:37.440 But they were able to conceive a child that they were told by doctors they were never able to conceive.

01:10:43.440 So I'm not saying, Hey, if you're infertile, sorry, just live with it. Now, maybe that is God's plan

01:10:49.860 for you not to have biological children, but there could be other solutions that don't pose a health,

01:10:56.360 a health risk to you because IVF also increases the chances of things like breast cancer in women.

01:11:02.880 Well, we don't know a whole lot about what IVF and egg extraction causes women because big

01:11:08.640 fertility is not studying it. Like it's actually hard for women to consent to the risks that go along

01:11:13.800 to, for example, donating eggs because we don't, they're like, well, there's no known risks because

01:11:18.540 you have not looked.

01:11:19.620 Well, because the same people that are getting paid from extracting the eggs would also be the

01:11:23.640 people that we need to do the research. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So I, I'm glad you brought

01:11:28.300 up restorative reproductive medicine, natural procreative technologies, like look it up now

01:11:32.820 pro technologies. I mean, if you're struggling with infertility, um, put your finger on the source

01:11:38.220 of the problem. There's a variety of different reasons why somebody might not be able to conceive.

01:11:41.820 And some of them are treatable. Yeah. A lot of them are treatable. You have friends that made those

01:11:46.040 lifestyle changes, eventually got pregnant. I've got several friends who got pregnant very, very quickly

01:11:50.640 because they're like, Oh, you don't have, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to make something

01:11:55.460 up. Yeah. Right. You don't have the right level of estrogen. You know, here's a supplement you

01:11:58.940 could take. Here's something that you could do to like equalize, get yourself to the right level.

01:12:02.480 And then pregnancy was fairly easy for a couple of their kids. Um, and it is simply because there's

01:12:08.300 not a lot of incentive for fertility doctors to actually seek and resolve the underlying fertility

01:12:12.420 issues. If they were, they would lose 12 to $25,000 by you being their customer, probably a

01:12:20.440 repeat customer with IVF success rates. And so don't take their advice, go the natural route,

01:12:27.220 see a doctor that actually wants to identify, resolve and heal your underlying fertility issues

01:12:32.640 if possible. And depending on the problem, you might see success rates at double what IVF is promising

01:12:39.720 you. Yes. Especially in the case where someone is, maybe they're starting to have a child at 35.

01:12:45.800 Maybe it's not because of like feminism and girl bossing. Maybe that's just the time that God,

01:12:50.940 you know, brought you your husband, but that is not infertility. It is simply how the female

01:12:56.420 body works. But also people need to hear that your rates of success, your chance of success in IVF,

01:13:03.760 the older you are, they go closer and closer to zero. Even if you do IVF, if you're 38,

01:13:09.720 years old, you're going to have a really hard time getting pregnant. I think it's better all

01:13:14.160 around, obviously ethically and morally, but for your health and for your chances of getting pregnant

01:13:17.860 to go the natural route, it's going to be harder to get pregnant no matter what the older you are,

01:13:22.940 but at least choose something that has no moral risk and is better for your body.

01:13:26.800 It's going to make you healthier generally. Anyway, I'm a lot of people like, what are we doing

01:13:31.340 with this infertility crisis? And I'm like, yes, infertility is a problem. Obviously like male

01:13:36.160 fertility has been really well documented in terms of that struggle, but generally we don't

01:13:40.800 necessarily have a fertility problem. We have a, you are getting married too late and choosing to

01:13:44.960 have children too late problem. Women have a very small window of easy pregnancy. It is late teens

01:13:50.920 to early thirties. And unfortunately, a lot of the narratives that we are selling young women these

01:13:55.940 days is to use that prime childbearing time to advance your career, to find yourself, to go to grad

01:14:02.560 school. And, um, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do those things. I'm not saying that you shouldn't

01:14:06.380 take a trip to Italy or whatever, but if you think that you're going to put off childbearing until you

01:14:11.680 are 33, 35, 37, 39, you might be working against your own body. You know, I tell young women, you can

01:14:18.960 have it all. You can have a marriage, you can have career, but you can't have it all at once.

01:14:24.340 Yeah. And if you don't do marriage and kids first, if you can choose, a lot of women can't,

01:14:28.180 a lot of women haven't found Mr. Right. Um, a lot of women are struggling with genuine fertility

01:14:32.800 issues, but if you can choose, you've got to do marriage and kids first. You have to do that first.

01:14:39.640 I wish we had started earlier. Like we got married at 23 as soon as we could after meeting each other,

01:14:45.460 but waited a few years until we had kids. And obviously I'm so thankful for every specific

01:14:50.360 child that we have with their specific genetic makeup. But I'm like, wait, why did we wait three

01:14:55.680 years? Why did we wait those three years of like prime fertility to, and you know, but you never

01:15:02.160 hear, I mean, I feel like you don't hear that that much. I'm thankful for our early years of marriage,

01:15:06.960 but it's like, it'd be awesome to have like three more kids too. So anyway, well, Katie, thank you so

01:15:12.360 much. Are there any parting thoughts, any final words that you'd like to give? Oh my gosh, that is

01:15:16.840 quite an invitation. Yes. Well, where can people find you support? Oh yeah. No, that's great.

01:15:21.800 Then before us.com go subscribe. We have some really, really big things that are going to be

01:15:27.600 coming out. Big interviews coming out in the next couple of weeks. Um, we have a lot of projects

01:15:31.500 that we're working on for the first time. We have policy recommendations for state level lawmakers

01:15:35.780 so that we can start to, um, do what we can to keep big fertility in check state by state,

01:15:41.780 but also working to retake lost marriage ground. Like I'm tired of playing defense on all of these

01:15:47.900 different critical areas of the social fabric of marriage and parenthood and families.

01:15:52.100 I want to go on the offense on behalf of children. I want people to start speaking up and boldly

01:15:57.940 advancing the rights of kids, both in their personal lives and in the policy world. So I guess

01:16:02.700 that's what I'd say. Like come and subscribe, um, find us on all the social media. Um, I'm on Twitter

01:16:07.280 too much X too much. We should have an intervention there, but yeah, we'd love to see you over there

01:16:13.120 if you're on the socials. Okay. Thank you so much, Katie. Yeah.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - February 26, 2025

Ep 1147 ｜ Human Egg Farms, Switched Babies & the Dark Web of Big Fertility ｜ Guest： Katy Faust

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