Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1161 ｜ 'The Handmaid's Tale' Is Back & Ignores the Actual Forced Birth Industry ｜ Guest： Josh Hammer

00:00:00.960 Trump has announced a move that will at least in part defund Planned Parenthood.

00:00:07.000 This is a really good start.

00:00:09.100 Also, The Handmaid's Tale has released their trailer for their sixth and final season of

00:00:16.040 the dystopian series, and they are not even hiding it.

00:00:19.740 This is about Republican Christians, but there is a real Handmaid's Tale going on in America 0.78

00:00:25.080 and around the world that you might not know about.

00:00:28.500 We will be detailing all of this today, plus later we will be talking with my friend Josh

00:00:33.060 Hammer to talk about the latest political news, all on today's episode of Relatable.

00:00:47.400 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:49.160 Happy Wednesday.

00:00:50.180 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.

00:00:52.600 Okay, a couple of things we got to get to before we talk to my friend Josh Hammer.

00:00:57.380 I'm so excited to announce the speakers, some of the speakers, for Share the Arrows 2025.

00:01:05.400 Thousands of you already have your tickets for our October 11th Christian Women's Event. 1.00

00:01:10.500 It's going to be amazing.

00:01:12.480 And you bought those tickets without even knowing who the speakers would be.

00:01:16.780 All right, so it's going to be me, yours truly.

00:01:20.200 We've also got Alisa Childers coming back. 0.90

00:01:23.020 She is an amazing apologist.

00:01:25.920 You guys love her.

00:01:27.480 And last year, she was one of the favorite talks.

00:01:31.100 She was one of my favorite talks.

00:01:32.540 When I reached Watch Share the Arrows last year, it was so incredibly powerful.

00:01:37.020 And she is going to be bringing a message of how to combat the new age and the spirit of this age

00:01:44.120 with courage and vigor in God's word.

00:01:46.240 We will be led in worship by the Grammy Award-winning artist Francesca Battistelli once again.

00:01:52.860 Everyone knows that one of my favorite moments from last year was hearing acapella.

00:01:57.140 She was acapella.

00:01:58.240 But hearing the entire crowd sing, This Is My Father's World, and your beautiful women voices,

00:02:05.380 it was just incredible.

00:02:06.980 This year is going to be even more amazing on that front.

00:02:10.440 And then we've also got my girl, Katie Faust.

00:02:13.660 And you guys know that Katie Faust does not hold back when it comes to children's rights. 0.89

00:02:19.000 She talks about it from both a scientific and moral and kind of secular position, but she

00:02:25.360 is a strong Christian, and she will be talking about these things from a biblical position,

00:02:30.720 things that you haven't heard yet, even if you've been listening to this podcast for a

00:02:34.720 long time when it comes to children's rights.

00:02:36.940 Why we must defend children's rights when it comes to marriage, when it comes to reproductive

00:02:41.880 technology.

00:02:43.160 You probably won't get that at very many Christian women's conferences, which unfortunately tend

00:02:49.640 to focus on a lot of self-esteem and self-focus.

00:02:55.380 I believe that women can take challenging, gospel-centered, deep theological teaching, and that's what you're

00:03:02.680 going to get at Share the Arrows.

00:03:04.120 We will also be having a health panel, which I'm pumped about.

00:03:07.940 Shauna Holman will be one of the speakers on that panel.

00:03:12.020 And how to live a balanced and healthy and holistic life that honors God, that isn't just

00:03:17.940 about performance, that isn't about legalism, but is actually about glorifying God with our

00:03:23.020 body and our homes.

00:03:24.380 So excited about that.

00:03:25.580 That's a new one from last year.

00:03:27.360 We didn't have anything like that, and we'll have that this year.

00:03:29.820 And then we have also got Ginger Duggar Vuolo.

00:03:34.640 She's going to be amazing.

00:03:36.140 You remember last year, I had the opportunity to talk to, interview Candace Cameron Bure,

00:03:41.800 and she was just so encouraging and funny and real and amazing.

00:03:45.820 And this year, we will have the testimony, the story, the vulnerability of Ginger Duggar Vuolo,

00:03:51.260 and just the authenticity of her faith and moving away from legalism is so edifying for

00:03:58.180 me.

00:03:58.780 It's going to be amazing to hear from her in a new way.

00:04:02.120 And then we've got other speakers that I have not yet announced that we will be announcing

00:04:07.320 soon.

00:04:08.200 But for those of you who have been thinking about coming, those of you who are already

00:04:11.500 planning on coming, I wanted you to know at least some of who you will be hearing from.

00:04:16.340 Y'all, I am just so passionate about this because, again, I believe that women need God's

00:04:22.960 Word.

00:04:23.760 We don't just need to hear how beautiful and perfect and awesome and enough we are.

00:04:29.280 We actually just need to hear that, hey, your problem is not that you don't feel good about

00:04:34.700 yourself.

00:04:35.240 Your biggest problem is that you are a sinner in need of a Savior, and you need Jesus, not 0.99

00:04:40.660 just for your salvation, but for your strength and for your sustenance and for your wisdom.

00:04:47.340 Everything that is required of you in this life takes the Holy Spirit and takes understanding

00:04:54.380 of God's Word.

00:04:55.640 And I just want women to walk out of this like they walked out of it last year saying, I've 1.00

00:05:01.160 got zero fear of man.

00:05:02.880 I don't fear the future for my children.

00:05:04.920 I don't fear the culture that seems to be an enemy of what I'm trying to teach my children.

00:05:10.900 I don't fear the enemy at all because I have the power of God that has been in Christians

00:05:17.580 since the very beginning of our faith and the gates of hell will not prevail against this

00:05:23.200 church.

00:05:23.600 And I feel equipped.

00:05:25.520 I feel strengthened, linking arms with fellow believers, sharing the arrows of the enemy with

00:05:32.000 them to take on whatever comes my way, whether it's as a stay-at-home mom, whether it's as

00:05:38.160 a student, whether it's as a grandmother, whether it's as whatever role, whatever spot

00:05:45.380 that God has providentially placed you in.

00:05:47.980 This will be an edifying, strengthening, emboldening day.

00:05:53.580 It's just one day.

00:05:55.120 That's important to me because I know it can be hard logistically, especially with families

00:05:59.780 and responsibilities to take, you know, days off work and all of that.

00:06:04.140 It's on a Saturday.

00:06:05.340 So hopefully you can get there.

00:06:07.040 Go ahead, get your tickets at sharethearrows.com.

00:06:10.420 If you've got any questions, a lot of the information is there.

00:06:14.040 As we get closer, we'll be releasing new merchandise.

00:06:17.400 You guys absolutely loved that last year.

00:06:18.860 It'll be even better this year.

00:06:20.440 We'll be releasing FAQs and things like that.

00:06:23.380 But grab your friends, grab your small group, grab your family.

00:06:26.520 There are VIP packages, different ways that you can meet the speakers and meet me.

00:06:31.820 And I'm so excited to be with you all there.

00:06:34.220 I've got the best audience ever.

00:06:35.680 If you want a taste of the best audience ever, if you want to make lifelong friends with salt

00:06:40.120 of the earth Christian women who will encourage you and love you and be faithful to point you

00:06:47.040 back to the truth, then you need to come to share the arrows.

00:06:50.080 There are those of you out there who have friends that you met at share the arrows last year

00:06:54.840 that are still just encouraging your soul.

00:06:57.440 And I'm so thankful for that.

00:06:59.000 So again, sharethearrows.com.

00:07:02.480 So pumped about it.

00:07:04.100 It'll be here before we know it.

00:07:05.800 All right.

00:07:06.800 Let's talk about something.

00:07:08.340 Let's talk about The Handmaid's Tale, Brie's favorite show.

00:07:12.780 I just learned that she's watched every episode of The Handmaid's Tale, y'all.

00:07:17.340 And Brie will be at Share the Arrows too.

00:07:19.360 She was there last year.

00:07:20.220 She came out on stage and y'all all clapped for her and hopefully you will again.

00:07:25.220 She deserves it.

00:07:27.360 Okay.

00:07:27.860 But she revealed to me that she has seen every episode of The Handmaid's Tale.

00:07:31.780 Brie, is that true?

00:07:33.840 Yes.

00:07:34.960 Because you love it?

00:07:37.140 I mean, no.

00:07:38.920 At first I was watching it just because I thought it was entertaining.

00:07:42.440 And then, you know, obviously it got a little bit more political.

00:07:46.580 They're trying to align things.

00:07:46.840 When did it first come out?

00:07:49.460 2017, maybe?

00:07:50.860 Okay.

00:07:51.260 It's been a while.

00:07:53.220 I don't know.

00:07:54.060 I just thought like the world that they created was really interesting.

00:07:56.700 If you can detach it from like what they're trying to say.

00:08:01.260 Yeah.

00:08:01.400 That like we're living in Handmaid's Tale times.

00:08:02.340 The political message.

00:08:03.800 Yeah.

00:08:05.380 Yeah.

00:08:05.800 I don't know.

00:08:06.120 I just thought it was interesting.

00:08:07.360 Yeah.

00:08:07.560 It's based on Margaret Atwood's novel, The Handmaid's Tale.

00:08:11.140 And tell us the premise of it.

00:08:12.620 Basically, these women are being conscripted into being like surrogates for people. 1.00

00:08:18.260 So the general premise is the United States was taken over by religious extremists.

00:08:24.580 Oh.

00:08:24.940 And now it's been renamed Gilead.

00:08:27.600 Oh.

00:08:28.760 And so now the United States has, you know, there are like factions of people.

00:08:34.020 So they're like the wives, the upper, upper class, if you will, the like holier, who are 0.99

00:08:39.240 like the husbands and wives. 0.96

00:08:41.000 But there's an infertility issue.

00:08:43.000 We later find out it's the men that are the problem that are infertile. 0.97

00:08:46.120 But there's an infertility issue.

00:08:47.560 They think it's the women. 1.00

00:08:48.740 This was written in the 80s.

00:08:50.280 Yes.

00:08:51.180 So Margaret Atwood did.

00:08:52.900 I wonder if she actually thought like Ronald Reagan and that era of Christians, the moral 1.00

00:08:58.240 majority that they were taken over.

00:09:00.080 She did say that she has been influenced by lots of different religions in their extremism,

00:09:07.700 notably Iran.

00:09:09.500 So some of this is inspired by Islam, actually, which a lot of people don't know.

00:09:15.200 And a lot of progressives that love to call Christians a handmaid's tale also love Islam, 0.81

00:09:20.340 or they think they do.

00:09:21.440 Yep.

00:09:21.620 Um, so yeah, there are, uh, infertility problem.

00:09:26.500 And so they find these handmaids who, uh, when they took over, they discovered they're

00:09:31.020 the women who had kids already or who could have kids.

00:09:33.680 And they basically have enslaved them to basically breed, uh, children for the couples that can't 0.98

00:09:40.660 have kids themselves.

00:09:41.540 So yeah, they're enslaved surrogates, essentially.

00:09:44.300 And they have to wear the red robes.

00:09:46.040 Yes, they have to wear the red robes.

00:09:47.720 The wives wear green.

00:09:48.920 So everyone knows like their place and Canada in this world is like the place where refugees 1.00

00:09:55.080 are trying to go for, you know, to get it, to escape Gilead.

00:09:58.860 And so, um, that's the general setup of the show.

00:10:03.520 Okay.

00:10:04.120 At my talk the other day in Santa Barbara, one of the protesters was wearing her handmaid's 0.57

00:10:11.200 robe because the belief is, and I've never seen an episode of the handmaid's tale and

00:10:17.500 it's been ruined for me at this point.

00:10:19.540 Like you, I like dystopian things.

00:10:23.020 I would probably find it interesting the same way that we found severance interesting because

00:10:27.580 it's dystopian, but it's been completely ruined for me now.

00:10:31.620 We know that the handmaids protesters have protested Donald Trump's presidency.

00:10:37.580 They protested Kavanaugh and their argument from what I understand is that the religious

00:10:43.920 right and really all Republicans, because Donald Trump is not the religious right, but they

00:10:48.400 might say that he's co-opted Christianity to try to turn America into this Christian 0.99

00:10:54.120 nationalist, religious extremist dystopia where women are forced to give birth.

00:11:00.260 And where they're getting that from is that some of us think it's wrong to kill babies

00:11:05.580 inside the womb and that it should actually be illegal to murder babies. 1.00

00:11:09.400 So can you help me understand, does the handmaid's tale have anything to do with abortion?

00:11:17.340 No.

00:11:18.480 It doesn't?

00:11:19.740 No, because, I mean, they're probably, their line of thinking is because babies are so rare

00:11:25.060 in that world and so cherished by people that they probably would never allow an abortion

00:11:31.200 to happen because they want all of the babies that are being created. 1.00

00:11:34.220 That's probably their line of thinking and why they equate those.

00:11:38.840 But the reality is a big point of the story in the handmaid's tale is that these women

00:11:44.260 who are forced to have these children want these babies and they're devastated when the,

00:11:50.360 when the action, when, you know, the biological, well, she's not the biological mom.

00:11:53.760 They are.

00:11:54.000 So they are the biological moms in this case.

00:11:55.100 They're the biological mom. 1.00

00:11:55.880 They're forced to actually physically sleep with the husband. 1.00

00:11:59.060 Okay.

00:11:59.280 So they're being raped.

00:12:00.400 Yes.

00:12:00.960 Okay.

00:12:01.320 Yes.

00:12:01.720 And they have, these are their own biological children.

00:12:04.560 These are their own biological children.

00:12:06.500 But in this world.

00:12:07.160 This is like Hagar and Sarah Abraham situation. 0.69

00:12:10.900 Yeah.

00:12:11.540 And then those babies are taken from them and they're treated like they're the actual children

00:12:15.840 of the wives.

00:12:17.360 And multiple plot points throughout the like five seasons that there have been have been,

00:12:22.160 you know, that these handmaids are devastated to lose their children.

00:12:26.600 And the main character has a child with her enslaver and rescues that child because it's

00:12:33.440 her child.

00:12:34.040 And so I think it's silly that they have made that argument when it's really the opposite.

00:12:39.340 These women don't, in the show, wouldn't abort their children anyway, even if they could, 1.00

00:12:44.500 they want them.

00:12:45.500 Yeah.

00:12:45.660 So, you know, obviously in the show, it's devastating circumstances, but.

00:12:50.080 Yes.

00:12:50.520 Well, the abortion brain worm is so burrowed into the minds of liberals that they have

00:13:00.160 convinced themselves that the position that I hold, that you hold, that it is wrong to

00:13:04.420 kill a baby. 0.95

00:13:05.240 It's wrong to kill a baby, whether they're in or outside of the womb.

00:13:08.340 It's wrong to kill an innocent human, that that is the position of forced birth.

00:13:12.680 They call that forced birther.

00:13:14.140 Well, unless you were raped, which accounts for less than 1% of abortion cases in the United

00:13:20.600 States, you were not forced to do the action that actually creates the baby.

00:13:26.860 We are saying after that baby is created, no matter the circumstances surrounding its

00:13:31.860 conception, it is its own human being with its own DNA and it's wrong to kill that person.

00:13:36.600 That is not the same at all.

00:13:39.260 That like literally has no correlation with this dystopia of Margaret Atwood's, where these

00:13:44.760 women are being raped and then forced to carry a baby and give up that baby. 0.95

00:13:49.860 There is a parallel in the United States that looks a lot like that.

00:13:54.360 And we'll get into that in a second.

00:13:55.580 First, let's play the latest trailer for the last and the sixth.

00:14:01.540 This is the sixth season, the sixth and final season of The Handmaid's Tale, because they're

00:14:06.780 not hiding it anymore.

00:14:08.260 The point that they're trying to make.

00:14:10.080 Here's that too.

00:14:11.640 For years, we've been afraid of them.

00:14:17.180 Now it's time for them to be afraid of us.

00:14:20.020 We broke this country and now we have to fix it together.

00:14:23.700 This is Gilead.

00:14:24.840 The only person you should count on is yourself.

00:14:26.680 They will never see us coming.

00:14:29.940 Oh, hell no.

00:14:30.800 Let's it be the first.

00:14:33.600 Let the revolution begin.

00:14:35.700 I built this miserable hellscape.

00:14:37.880 This is the beginning of the end.

00:14:42.780 What's happening?

00:14:44.900 Rebellion.

00:14:47.040 Rise up and fight for your freedom.

00:14:51.460 Where is June Osborne? 1.00

00:14:54.360 You're just like the rest of them.

00:14:56.120 We use all of our friends, everyone, and anyone who hates Gilead to finally declare enough.

00:15:04.660 Okay.

00:15:11.740 This is so 2016 coded.

00:15:14.480 Yeah.

00:15:15.240 Like the poster of Scientology girl.

00:15:18.780 I forget her name.

00:15:19.980 Elizabeth Moss.

00:15:20.820 Yeah.

00:15:21.080 Yeah.

00:15:21.380 She's the revolution is her here.

00:15:26.080 It's got like a little red E on there.

00:15:28.920 The revolution is her ear.

00:15:30.600 I mean, that is that's so she's with her type stuff. 1.00

00:15:35.760 2016 Hillary Clinton coded.

00:15:39.060 I mean, what year is this?

00:15:42.020 Is it the year of our Lord 2025?

00:15:44.340 I thought we were over cringe feminism. 1.00

00:15:47.440 Even the trailers.

00:15:49.000 So all of the lines.

00:15:50.040 I was laughing at the lines.

00:15:51.680 It's a revolution.

00:15:54.560 They're so cheesy.

00:15:55.760 Also, like, are they trying to condone actually murdering people who are pro-life and murdering

00:16:03.540 Republicans?

00:16:04.300 Because that's like the parallel they're trying to make here.

00:16:07.480 I mean, we both know probably they are.

00:16:11.680 Yeah.

00:16:12.400 America wasn't Gilead until it was too late.

00:16:18.200 Handmaid's Tale first season still feels uncomfortably timely in 2025.

00:16:23.880 And the first episode of the Handmaid's Tale, the government suspended the Constitution.

00:16:28.500 They cut off all of them from being able to access their bank accounts immediately.

00:16:32.640 I remember watching it and thinking this is ridiculous.

00:16:35.480 It could never happen here.

00:16:36.980 Now, I'm not so sure.

00:16:38.780 Honestly, I think the government should take over my bank account.

00:16:42.460 I'm spending like it just on the Instagram ads.

00:16:47.040 They're killing me.

00:16:48.500 They know me too well.

00:16:50.440 They I've accepted that Instagram can read my mind.

00:16:53.300 And I'm just like happy about it now because they give me these ads for things that I really

00:16:58.300 want.

00:16:58.680 And then I end up buying them and I don't like them.

00:17:00.660 I send them back.

00:17:01.460 But honestly, the government should probably take over my bank account and just stop me

00:17:04.940 putting into that.

00:17:06.340 But that is such a ridiculous statement.

00:17:08.260 That is such a ridiculous.

00:17:09.700 These people, they don't live in reality.

00:17:12.620 They truly don't like.

00:17:14.980 And that is provably true that progressives like when it comes when you try to get them

00:17:19.580 to describe something that's going on, especially like numerically or statistically, they can't

00:17:23.680 do it.

00:17:24.580 Whether it's police interactions with like minorities, what that actually looks like or 0.88

00:17:30.240 what the income gaps are between men and women, they get it wrong every time because they

00:17:36.040 do not.

00:17:36.720 Many of them simply don't traffic in facts.

00:17:40.200 They don't live in reality.

00:17:42.260 They listen to this propaganda.

00:17:43.960 OK, let me pause and tell you about our sponsor.

00:17:46.360 And then I will paint for you a picture of a real handmaid's tale that is going on in

00:17:51.040 America that has nothing to do with pregnancy centers, nothing to do with Donald Trump, nothing

00:17:55.520 to do with pro-lifers who take the radical position that it should be wrong to kill any

00:17:59.580 innocent person, no matter what their size, age or location is.

00:18:02.600 OK, so let me paint that picture for you and all of you handmaid stands out there. 1.00

00:18:07.380 I await your justified outrage once I explain this to you.

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00:19:40.260 OK, something that is really happening in the United States right now is a widespread

00:19:55.600 billion dollar surrogacy industry that thrives in the United States, which is the wild west

00:20:04.520 of reproductive technology when it comes to the creation and the cryopreservation of embryos,

00:20:13.060 the farming of eggs, the procurement of sperm to make these little people, sometimes dozens

00:20:22.020 of little people for two people or one individual who simply wants to create children.

00:20:28.860 These embryos are graded.

00:20:31.300 They are discarded.

00:20:32.680 They are frozen indefinitely.

00:20:35.000 They are thawed.

00:20:36.040 They are given to people and never followed up on.

00:20:40.760 That's what happens in the United States through IVF, through sperm and egg selling. 1.00

00:20:46.700 And one of the most disturbing aspects of the reproductive industry in the United States is surrogacy.

00:20:54.040 Surrogacy, typically, it's a little bit different than what happens in Gilead in the United States.

00:20:59.480 Commercial surrogacy requires an egg seller that is separate from the gestator.

00:21:07.700 So you've got the egg seller, which is the biological mother. 0.93

00:21:11.080 In some cases, you've also got a sperm seller.

00:21:13.820 In some cases, you've just got the sperm seller and you don't have the egg seller as well.

00:21:18.920 But when we're talking about a surrogate, it is typically the creation of a child using the DNA of two individuals,

00:21:25.020 which are complete strangers, creating these embryos and then transferring these embryos into a surrogate

00:21:33.140 who is not the biological mother, is not related to the child at all.

00:21:38.460 And this carrier, this surrogate, carries the child until birth. 1.00

00:21:43.900 Very often, these are premature births because they are high-risk pregnancies.

00:21:49.100 They were not naturally conceived.

00:21:51.360 This baby doesn't share DNA with the carrier.

00:21:53.800 That's not how it's supposed to be.

00:21:55.220 It can be very dangerous for both baby and mother.

00:21:59.160 And the baby is born and then taken away from the mother and then given to the intended parents.

00:22:06.400 Very often nowadays, the intended parents are two men because two men can't make a baby on their own.

00:22:13.420 They can't carry a baby.

00:22:14.600 And so they need to purchase the services and the DNA of two other women to carry that baby 0.99

00:22:20.800 and to prevent bonding with the surrogate because the bond there, even if the surrogate is not the biological mother,

00:22:27.800 the bond there is so strong that it has to be severed at birth.

00:22:33.800 Or else the gestator might get this crazy idea that she has some claim over this child

00:22:40.320 because everything in her body, all of her hormones, her milk is coming in.

00:22:45.060 Everything in her brain is telling her, protect this child.

00:22:48.780 This is your child.

00:22:49.900 Hold this child.

00:22:50.700 Cherish this child.

00:22:51.700 Everything hormonally, physiologically in the baby is saying, where's my mom?

00:22:57.800 Where's the smell and the touch and the feel and the heartbeat of the woman who has been carrying me for the nine months?

00:23:03.460 The past nine months, this is the only home that I've ever known.

00:23:08.280 We know that it is physically, health-wise necessary for that baby and that mom to be bonded.

00:23:15.140 And when I say mom, when I'm talking about surrogacy, I'm talking about the gestator. 0.83

00:23:18.800 But when we're talking about in typical situations, that mom and that baby are supposed to have that bond seconds after birth.

00:23:25.740 We are told that over and over again during pregnancy.

00:23:28.600 The skin-to-skin is so important.

00:23:30.040 Why? Because it regulates the baby's body temperature.

00:23:34.060 It regulates the baby's breathing and the baby's heartbeat.

00:23:36.980 They've just gone through something really big, really dramatic, really traumatic, and they need that bond.

00:23:42.520 But in surrogacy situations, that skin-to-skin opportunity is taken away.

00:23:47.120 That bonding experience necessary for the health of the child is taken away to prevent that bond.

00:23:52.860 And the child is given to the intended parents, sometimes a mom and a dad, a lot of times two men, and sometimes an individual man.

00:24:02.140 That is what is happening on a daily basis in the United States because we have virtually no regulations around it.

00:24:08.620 Let me show you a video of what that actually looks like.

00:24:12.020 As a divorced single mom, she needs the money to buy a home for herself and her two children. 1.00

00:24:24.880 I hope that that breaks your heart.

00:24:47.080 When you hear that baby's cry, you might be thinking, well, every baby cries, of course, when they're born.

00:24:53.260 They're supposed to cry. It's a good thing.

00:24:55.080 But that is also longing for warmth.

00:24:58.100 That is longing for the bond of his mother.

00:25:01.740 And you'll see right there that the baby is taken away.

00:25:05.320 The baby is not given to the mother.

00:25:06.880 And obviously, that's not happening in America.

00:25:08.900 I just want to paint you a picture, though, of what is happening in America on a daily basis.

00:25:14.120 And I will never forget the conversation that I had with a mom on this show.

00:25:19.260 We'll link the episode.

00:25:20.920 Her name is Brittany.

00:25:21.720 She was diagnosed with cancer while she was carrying a baby for two men.

00:25:25.340 The couple was livid when she was diagnosed.

00:25:27.720 The doctors assured them, all of them, that she could deliver early, that the little boy would be fine.

00:25:33.300 He would spend some time in the NICU, but he would be fine.

00:25:36.420 But the men said no.

00:25:37.340 They didn't want to deal with the possible adverse health outcomes of a premature baby.

00:25:42.620 Brittany begged the men, please let me adopt him.

00:25:45.920 I will take care of him.

00:25:47.060 They refused.

00:25:48.200 They cut all contact with her.

00:25:50.260 They just wanted to try again with a new, healthier surrogate. 0.60

00:25:53.840 This happens more times than you would like to know.

00:25:56.380 She delivered early.

00:25:57.740 The baby boy died.

00:25:59.220 There was no one there to claim him or care for his remains.

00:26:02.040 He was held by Brittany's family member as he died.

00:26:05.580 And he was tossed like trash.

00:26:08.980 And this is not just an extreme example.

00:26:11.280 This highlights the inherent problem of surrogacy.

00:26:14.120 The surrogate and baby create this bond.

00:26:16.980 The baby isn't biologically hers.

00:26:18.880 She has no claim over him legally.

00:26:21.100 No claim.

00:26:22.220 They signed a contract saying as much.

00:26:24.980 And then the parents don't have the same bond with the baby that they would if the baby was actually being gestated by the mother.

00:26:33.160 That doesn't mean that all intended parents in these surrogacy situations are going to make this kind of awful decision.

00:26:38.260 That's just the reality there.

00:26:41.260 We are all affected, by the way, by our gestation and by the earliest moments of our life, earth side.

00:26:48.300 We were created like this.

00:26:49.900 What happens to people at birth and before birth actually matters.

00:26:53.920 And then there's this also very disturbing study, a 2023 study from the Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology, this clinic, outcome reporting system.

00:27:05.580 So it's a long it's a long acronym there.

00:27:08.020 Found that between 2014 and 2020, 32% of surrogacy pregnancies by American women were for buyers outside of the U.S.

00:27:18.300 42% of those buyers were men of Asian descent, mostly from China.

00:27:24.720 Single men, Asian descent from China.

00:27:27.540 OK.

00:27:28.880 The U.S., as I've said, is the Wild West of reproductive technology. 0.56

00:27:32.440 People from all over the world buy our sperm, buy our eggs, rent the wombs, buy the babies, take them home for who knows what.

00:27:42.660 We already know there is an egg farm that's run by China where these women are stimulated with a hormone there so that their eggs, they basically go through hyperovulation. 0.99

00:27:54.700 Their eggs are ready to be harvested.

00:27:56.380 They go through this very painful process.

00:27:58.020 So those eggs can then be sold on the market.

00:28:01.700 I'm sure there's something like that for sperm as well.

00:28:04.180 But it seems to be women who are extremely vulnerable in these situations.

00:28:07.620 We already know there's an organ harvesting black market that exists. 0.99

00:28:11.760 We know that child sex trafficking exists and surrogacy plays a part in all of that.

00:28:17.520 Yet most people won't say anything about this because they are scared of being called homophobic.

00:28:23.740 Because they know it is very often men using these services in order to procure a child, to buy a child, rent a womb, and buy DNA to create this child.

00:28:35.260 So they don't want to say anything because what will people do who really want to be parents?

00:28:39.840 Look, adult wants don't get to trump the well-being of children.

00:28:44.580 This is the handmaid's tale.

00:28:46.460 You've got women very often who are desperate for money, especially when you're talking about women in Ukraine and in other poor countries who become surrogates.

00:28:55.420 They are desperate for money.

00:28:57.780 They are being bought.

00:28:59.160 They are being rented by elite men all over the world, elite couples all over the world who want to use their bodies to create babies. 0.62

00:29:09.240 This is essentially prostitution. 0.99

00:29:12.940 This is the handmaid's tale.

00:29:15.400 And if you say, well, these women are consenting to it, saying yes because you are in a desperate situation does not amount to consent.

00:29:23.840 And consent is not the only factor in determining if something is right or wrong.

00:29:29.100 This is the objectification of women, the commodification of children. 1.00

00:29:33.580 This is a real-life handmaid's tale. 0.54

00:29:35.560 And if you are not outraged about this, then take off your stupid red robe, okay?

00:29:41.180 Don't be an idiot.

00:29:42.800 Wake up to reality.

00:29:43.960 Your ideology is stupid.

00:29:45.960 It is evil.

00:29:46.800 It is allowing something like this.

00:29:48.960 Children have a right to life, and they have a right to a mother and father.

00:29:54.400 End of story.

00:29:54.980 That is the only moral, ethical, and consistent position.

00:29:59.560 Okay, Margaret Atwood?

00:30:01.600 All right.

00:30:02.220 We've got a lot more to talk about today.

00:30:03.820 We're switching gears.

00:30:04.440 We're talking to my friend Josh Hammer about some other very important news stories unrelated to The Handmaid's Tale, but always including the stupidity of left-wing ideology and how it really deludes people's not only their brain, but also their hearts and really kind of atrophies the soul with its lies.

00:30:22.660 But let me tell you about our next sponsor before we get into that, and that is Jace Medical.

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00:31:31.860 Josh, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:31:34.440 We've got so much to get into.

00:31:35.980 So pumped to talk about your book.

00:31:37.600 But I want to talk about this headline first from the Wall Street Journal.

00:31:41.020 Trump administration plans to freeze family planning grants.

00:31:44.320 So WSJ reported that the Trump administration is planning to freeze the family planning grants to organizations like Planned Parenthood as it investigates things like DEI initiatives, which has the potential to remove $20 million in funding from Planned Parenthood.

00:32:00.600 Seems to me like that is a good start.

00:32:02.740 It's not the finish line, but it's a good start.

00:32:04.780 What are your thoughts?

00:32:05.500 It's a very good start.

00:32:08.180 I would say it's a very, very good start.

00:32:10.100 I mean, you can go back, Allie, and look back in the very first week or two of the administration.

00:32:14.140 There were various other pro-life executive orders that came out as well when it comes to restoring the Mexico City policy, which puts very strong restrictions on taxpayer subsidization of abortion in foreign countries here.

00:32:25.680 This is another very, very notable development as well there.

00:32:29.760 Ultimately, Planned Parenthood has to be defunded of every single federal penny of taxpayer dollar, period, full stop, end of story.

00:32:36.940 And I think that this is a very meaningful step on the way to that.

00:32:40.160 It's not the finish line, as you said there, but all the indications are that this administration is heading in the right direction.

00:32:46.080 Now, Allie, in my own capacity, I wasn't skeptical, but I was asking questions at least about RFK at HHS.

00:32:54.240 I happen to actually largely agree with RFK on some of his vaccine stances and things like that.

00:32:59.480 That was never my objection there.

00:33:01.040 Rather, I was concerned because he's a lifelong abortion advocate.

00:33:04.340 I mean, he is a Kennedy after all there.

00:33:05.780 And I did have some questions as to whether or not we would get consistent pro-life policy from executive agencies such as HHS.

00:33:13.960 Thus far, Allie, in the two plus months that we've seen of this second Trump administration, I've seen effectively virtually no reason to be particularly concerned.

00:33:21.660 As a staunch pro-life for myself, I see a lot of reasons to be deeply encouraged.

00:33:25.200 And frankly, I only hope that this momentum keeps up.

00:33:27.960 One other notable pro-life development, by the way, this story did not get a whole lot of headlines, but there was actually a notable Supreme Court case last year out of the state of Idaho.

00:33:36.720 What happened in Idaho was the state there passed a very strong pro-life measure, and you had some pro-abortion folks in Idaho that actually took this case all the way to the Supreme Court to basically challenge the Idaho law and say that it was preempted, as lawyers would say, by this federal emergency abortion statute that basically said that the Idaho law had to be subject to the federal medical abortion thing.

00:34:00.280 Long story short, the Biden administration was basically trying to make abortions happen again in the state of Idaho.

00:34:05.740 This went really under the radar.

00:34:07.040 Not a whole lot of people covered it or even noticed it, but the Trump DOJ actually withdrew the federal government's stance from that particular case.

00:34:15.200 They basically dropped the suit, so the Idaho pro-life law stands in place as well there.

00:34:19.260 There's been a lot of kind of small developments like that.

00:34:21.460 So as I said, from a pro-life perspective, this is a very important issue, obviously, for both me and you and obviously for the audience as well.

00:34:27.460 Everything seems to be going pretty well for now.

00:34:29.700 I'm quite happy.

00:34:30.740 Yes.

00:34:31.160 And, you know, of course, Planned Parenthood reacted to this news by saying you're taking health care away from women.

00:34:38.060 Live Action has done a lot of reporting on the so-called health care that Planned Parenthood actually does.

00:34:43.420 So over the past 10 years, according to Live Action's reporting, prenatal care has decreased by 68 percent.

00:34:50.140 Contraceptive services decreased nearly 40 percent.

00:34:52.840 Cancer screenings prevention services plummeted by nearly 59 percent.

00:34:58.420 Pap tests decreased by 60 percent.

00:35:02.560 Adoption referrals decreased by nearly 22 percent.

00:35:05.960 Just anecdotally, if you talk to women, I do a lot of work with pregnancy care centers, and a lot of women who come into those pregnancy centers, they first went to Planned Parenthood, or maybe they previously had an abortion at Planned Parenthood.

00:35:18.180 And the reason that they're at the pregnancy center is because they were under the impression that they could go to the Planned Parenthood and get information about an actual choice.

00:35:28.080 What if they wanted to parent? 0.51

00:35:29.720 What if they wanted to put their child up for adoption?

00:35:33.560 Planned Parenthood redirects those people right back out the door and says, if you don't have the $800 for an abortion, you really have no business being here.

00:35:41.880 That's how the vast majority, if not all, Planned Parenthood function.

00:35:46.480 And yet, over the past 10 years, again, according to Live Action, profit at this abortion corporation has gone from 58.2 million 10 years ago to $178.6 million a year.

00:36:00.660 So that's an increase of 270% of the annual profit that that corporation is making, in addition to our hundreds of millions of dollars of tax money that they are also receiving.

00:36:13.780 So no health care.

00:36:15.120 We are just paying for the killing of unborn children. 0.99

00:36:18.660 Even if they say our dollars can't go toward that, we know that they are.

00:36:22.780 Yeah, I guess if there's one thing that I would like to see a little bit more of, we've seen so much from Elon Musk and DOGE, his Department of Government Efficiency, when it comes to rooting out a lot of stuff that taxpayers should not be subsidizing, whether it's DEI for children in Myanmar or gender ideology in the Congo.

00:36:41.580 I mean, I'm making up examples here, but that's basically what they discover when it comes to things like USAID.

00:36:46.220 I would like to see a little bit more when it comes to the DOGE focus on saving taxpayers when it comes to the abortion issue there, because there are historical ways that Democrats in particular, when they control the federal budget, when they control appropriations there, they try to slip all sorts of backdoor mechanisms for the U.S. taxpayer to subsidize abortion there.

00:37:07.760 And Planned Parenthood happens to be the most high-profile example.

00:37:10.340 There's any number of smaller examples as well.

00:37:12.860 So I would like to see a slightly more concerted effort when it comes to Elon Musk and DOGE.

00:37:18.660 I don't really know how Elon Musk personally feels about this, but he certainly seems to be small government enough inclined whereby he should be, I think, incentivized and encouraged and, frankly, just interested in trying to save taxpayer dollars of having to subsidize these abortion companies, which, as you note, are already tragically highly profitable and highly lucrative for the most part in the first place there.

00:37:40.960 But ultimately, Ali, I think the most important argument there is not necessarily saving taxpayers' dollars.

00:37:46.940 The most important argument is that this is wrong.

00:37:49.180 One of my big things going back to really the beginning of my days doing political commentary is that these procedural arguments are interesting, but it's always more interesting to cut to the moral heart of the issue, to actually make a straightforward moral argument as to the propriety or the impropriety of the underlying action, of the underlying conduct.

00:38:05.460 And it's incumbent upon pro-lifers to never stop arguing, to never stop reminding, seeking to persuade, to gauge in a very slow, drudging, methodical, but nonetheless highly difficult or important, I should say, work of changing hearts and minds there.

00:38:21.160 And what that means is just taking the pro-life argument head on and explaining to people whether or not they're already on board or they're not on board, that this is wrong, not just as a fiscal matter when it comes to the taxpayer dollars and the federal fisc, but it's also wrong just as a moral matter here because we should not be involved in killing innocent, unborn babies.

00:38:39.500 Basically, period, full stop, end of story.

00:38:41.080 Absolutely. And that's not really something that we've heard Elon Musk talk about that much, but he has talked about what he understands is the inherent evil in so-called gender-affirming care, giving someone the opposite hormones, especially when it comes to minors.

00:38:55.380 And Planned Parenthood has actually become the industry leader in providing these hormones to these young people.

00:39:00.720 Every detransitioner that I've talked to on this couch, they originally got their cross-sex hormones from Planned Parenthood. 1.00

00:39:07.640 And you don't need much of a sign-off.

00:39:11.960 I think you need one psychologist that is typically recommended by the gender clinic that originally convinced that child that they were born in the wrong body.

00:39:21.720 They sign off on it.

00:39:23.320 Sometimes there's an endocrinologist involved.

00:39:25.560 Again, they're handpicked by these gender clinics. 1.00

00:39:27.860 They refer them to Planned Parenthood.

00:39:29.600 Planned Parenthood says, here's your testosterone. 0.82

00:39:31.700 So there are lots of reasons, moral reasons, but also fiscal reasons.

00:39:38.060 To cut ties with Planned Parenthood when it comes to taxpayer dollars, it seems like that shouldn't even be a partisan issue.

00:39:45.620 It shouldn't be.

00:39:46.560 I mean, it's also just one of straight-up just crony capitalism, right?

00:39:49.040 I mean, that's a term that you probably haven't heard in a whole lot of time there.

00:39:52.360 But I mean, why are there other large federal corporations?

00:39:55.480 Why are there large companies that are getting taxpayer dollars in general there?

00:39:59.660 I mean, there's more reasons than I could possibly count that Planned Parenthood should not get a single penny of federal taxpayer dollar.

00:40:08.480 But overall, Ali, I do think it's important to underscore and emphasize what we were talking about a few minutes ago, which is I think over the course of the 2024 campaign, there were some pro-lifers, people that you and I would consider close allies, friends, many of whom were skeptical, were kind of pessimistic, depressed, blackbilled, you might say, about the prospects of a Trump-vance presidency when it comes to this issue, to the pro-life issue there.

00:40:31.980 And I tried to mollify behind the scenes a lot of those friends of mine, basically saying, look, this is a political campaign.

00:40:38.440 People say a lot of stuff in the context of a political campaign to get elected there.

00:40:42.180 But the most important thing that you can do for a situation like this is you look back to what President Trump did when he was in office the first time around.

00:40:49.180 And not only did he nominate the justices who helped overturn Roe v. Wade, that's the most important thing, but there were all sorts of executive orders as well that were strongly pro-life executive orders.

00:40:58.260 And again, I'm just deeply hardened by what we've seen thus far.

00:41:01.120 Now, in my heart of hearts, would I still like to see Congress legislate a national abortion ban tomorrow?

00:41:07.060 Yes, of course I would there.

00:41:08.240 I've called for that any number of times.

00:41:09.820 I've argued that proposition at top 10 law schools in America.

00:41:13.220 But, you know, it's just not going to happen right now due to the present political realities there.

00:41:17.340 So a lot of it is going to come from the executive branch.

00:41:19.520 And thankfully, we seem to have a very supportive executive branch at this moment.

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00:42:40.780 Speaking of the executive branch, J.D. Vance was caught in a pretty private conversation with the Secretary of Defense talking about war plans in Europe.

00:42:57.760 Or talking about Europe and talking about their war plans.

00:43:01.440 And accidentally, Jeffrey Goldberg was included, the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic.

00:43:06.640 There are different opinions on this.

00:43:09.000 Some people are saying, OK, they weren't really that confidential of plans that were being discussed.

00:43:13.700 It's not that big of a deal.

00:43:14.660 It's actually kind of interesting to see this kind of transparency and how they talk about Europe and our enemies and their plans.

00:43:21.260 And then others are saying, OK, this is so embarrassing.

00:43:24.580 This is obviously a huge security issue.

00:43:27.120 How can they have this level of recklessness and carelessness when it comes to American defense?

00:43:33.780 So I'm just curious, what was your reaction when you first heard this?

00:43:38.900 So as usual, Allie, the truth is somewhere in the middle, right?

00:43:41.980 I mean, when you have kind of, you know, someone trying to just totally dismiss a story and then someone trying to blow it out of proportion.

00:43:46.900 The truth is typically somewhere in the very murky gray area in the middle there.

00:43:50.420 So there are at least two aspects, really three aspects to the story.

00:43:56.520 One is the fact that they were conversing on signal.

00:43:58.980 Two is the fact that Jeffrey Goldberg, of all people, of The Atlantic somehow managed to get in this chat.

00:44:04.200 Third is the underlying substance of what was actually being discussed and how it played out here in this chat.

00:44:09.360 So I guess I'll take all three of those in order.

00:44:11.760 The fact that it's on signal in the first place, a lot of people are freaking out about this.

00:44:15.500 That really does not particularly bother me.

00:44:17.500 That is the least of my concerns right now.

00:44:19.440 You know, in theory, should they have maybe some other government, Pentagon, CIA-approved messaging device?

00:44:26.360 Maybe.

00:44:27.200 But, I mean, it's totally implausible and unrealistic in today's day and age and in our very kinetic, fast-charging foreign affairs circumstances.

00:44:34.480 It's totally implausible to expect that all these very important people, people like Pete Hexeth, Marco Rubio, J.D. Vance, could all congregate jointly in a skiff and then review class.

00:44:44.380 That's just not how it works.

00:44:46.080 And frankly, it was actually the Biden administration that took pains to actually approve the use of signal for these sorts of communications.

00:44:51.480 So that's really not my concern, the fact that it was actually happening on signal.

00:44:55.620 The fact that Jeffrey Goldberg, by contrast, found his way into this chat is a very big deal, and it is extraordinarily problematic there, among other reasons, because Jeffrey Goldberg is a very bad faith actor.

00:45:07.880 I mean, this is someone who is a left-wing activist of a so-called journalist.

00:45:11.880 I have personally sparred with him.

00:45:13.360 He's actually blocked me on social media for over a decade there.

00:45:15.520 He is not someone who has the best interest of the Trump administration at heart, I think, would be a dramatic understatement.

00:45:22.160 So how in the world did he end up on this?

00:45:24.360 Well, you know, the working theory is that his initials, J.G., were there and that they meant to put in the U.S. trade representative, Jamison Greer.

00:45:32.260 I mean, that's just gross incompetence.

00:45:34.360 I mean, someone clearly massively, massively dropped the ball.

00:45:38.420 Unclear why any of these staffers, frankly, even had Jeffrey Goldberg in their signal contacts in the first place.

00:45:43.160 No one should be talking to this guy.

00:45:44.420 Again, he's a bad faith actor trying to undermine this administration there.

00:45:47.640 But even conceding that for the sake of argument, I mean, for God's sake, I mean, double, triple check a conversation of this nature.

00:45:53.780 So there should be a fall guy.

00:45:55.600 I don't think it should be Mike Waltz, but maybe it's Mike Waltz's staffer.

00:45:58.820 Whoever was actually responsible for Jeffrey Goldberg getting access to this there, that person, in my opinion, should be disciplined, fired.

00:46:06.500 And let's really make sure that from an OPSEC perspective that this never, never, ever, ever happens again.

00:46:11.780 I query, by the way, whether Jeffrey Goldberg actually acted ethically there.

00:46:15.120 In my opinion, he did not.

00:46:16.600 He should have politely said, guys, I'm not here.

00:46:19.740 Like, I'm in the wrong place.

00:46:20.700 That's what I was thinking.

00:46:21.240 And then it's like basically Irish exit stage, right?

00:46:22.920 I mean, get the heck out of the chat there.

00:46:24.260 I mean, so he did not act properly as well here.

00:46:26.680 You know, the final thing is the most important part, right, which is that the actual, the underlying substance.

00:46:32.000 I mean, like, what are they actually discussing there?

00:46:33.440 And you basically see an interesting discussion about what to do when it comes to the issue of the Houthis there.

00:46:38.760 And, you know, it's not a big surprise that there are people within the Trump administration who have differing opinions when it comes to the Middle East, when it comes to foreign policy in general there.

00:46:47.760 Look, I was not persuaded by Vice President Vance's argument that this is just simply Europe's problem there.

00:46:54.660 The United States definitely has an interest.

00:46:57.380 I mean, we can debate how strong that interest is.

00:46:59.140 We definitely have an interest in securing free passageway of the Red Sea, one of the world's most important waterways, which these Muslim pirates, the Houthis, have basically held hostage for years and years now. 1.00

00:47:09.060 So, you know, it was it was it was kind of confirmation that a lot of these guys say privately, whether it's the vice president, Hague, Seth, Waltz, a lot of them say privately what they say publicly.

00:47:18.400 So not a whole lot of shock there.

00:47:20.420 But we shouldn't be talking about this.

00:47:22.260 I mean, not just me and you, but the world should not be talking about a very private, high level conversation from the people involved there.

00:47:29.500 So the fact we've been having this conversation, I do find to be deeply problematic.

00:47:33.500 Yeah, it was interesting.

00:47:34.900 It was interesting for me to just kind of see how these decisions are made and also the verbiage they use with each other.

00:47:42.120 I mean, it did give us some insight, I guess, into how these conversations go, even if we weren't supposed to have that insight.

00:47:48.480 Your point about Goldberg, he should have exited and said, I don't think that I'm the right person for this group chat.

00:47:55.300 I was wondering the same thing.

00:47:57.720 It seems like no one is saying that or maybe I just haven't seen it.

00:48:00.980 I mean, I'm glad he kept the confidential information to himself until after this attack happened.

00:48:05.960 Right.

00:48:06.540 So that was good.

00:48:08.600 But it seems like the right thing to do, the honest thing to do would have been for him to bow out.

00:48:14.380 But he knew that he could make it a story.

00:48:17.040 He knew that he could make it a story about their incompetence.

00:48:20.180 And that's really the whole point.

00:48:21.620 So it's interesting how people are applauding him, I don't know, for his courage, for being at the right place at the right time, according to, you know, his journalistic goals.

00:48:32.880 But, yeah, it's strange.

00:48:34.600 It seems like everyone should be like, why didn't you get out of there earlier?

00:48:37.920 So people seem to be applauding Jeffrey Goldberg for not leaking the news of the imminent strikes before they happened.

00:48:46.900 That's not praiseworthy behavior.

00:48:48.960 You're basically praising him for not committing treason.

00:48:51.500 I mean, that literally would be a borderline.

00:48:53.560 And he knew that, which is why.

00:48:55.360 They argue to leak the news of a strike beforehand is literally an act of treason.

00:49:00.080 That's a very plausible legal argument.

00:49:02.440 So it's not praiseworthy to abstain from committing treason.

00:49:06.000 That just makes you a very, very low level, extraordinarily low bar, semi-decent human being.

00:49:12.680 Right.

00:49:13.180 So he's not deserving of praise.

00:49:15.320 I mean, he did not he did not act ethically here.

00:49:17.620 And again, he did not act ethically because this is a man who carries immense water for the Democratic Party.

00:49:22.500 He carries immense water for liberal causes there.

00:49:24.440 You know, the reason that Jeffrey Goldberg blocked me personally on social media 10 years ago is because I called him Barack Obama's court Jew because he was basically the Jewish journalist who was being tasked by Barack Obama with trying to sell the catastrophic Iran nuclear deal to a very skeptical public there.

00:49:39.320 He is literally the guy who goes in there to carry water and do the dirty work for the Democratic Party.

00:49:44.220 He has only the worst interests of the Trump administration at heart there.

00:49:47.500 So I'm not surprised that he acted the way he did.

00:49:50.800 And look, I mean, I'm a lawyer, Allie.

00:49:53.000 I didn't go to journalism school, whatever there.

00:49:54.880 I have to imagine, though, that whatever they're teaching in journalism school these days, to the extent that it's not just entirely overrun by left wing ideology, which it probably is.

00:50:02.280 If there if there is such thing these days in the 21st century as journalistic ethics, I have to think that Jeffrey Goldberg wildly, wildly violated a final point I will make on this.

00:50:11.260 There is a relevant statute from a legal perspective on the books called the Espionage Act, which which deals with how one handles classified information.

00:50:20.600 We have seen the Espionage Act invoked in the recent past when it comes to Donald Trump and Mar-a-Lago and the FBI raid there and so forth.

00:50:27.740 Now, there is actually not a journalistic exception for the Espionage Act there.

00:50:32.300 So if the Trump administration really, really, really wanted to make an enemy of Jeffrey Goldberg, I'm not suggesting they do because it might not be a winning case based on current SCOTUS precedent or not there.

00:50:42.660 But you could, in theory, prosecute him on Espionage Act grounds if you really, really want to send a strong case.

00:50:48.920 I think it's a weak case because, you know, he didn't snoop around.

00:50:51.800 He was literally invited to this chat there or literally fell into his lap.

00:50:54.340 So it's maybe not a strong legal case, but such an option exists if they were interested in doing so.

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00:52:08.000 Okay, I'm so interested to get your take as a lawyer,

00:52:12.420 as someone who cares about the First Amendment, the Constitution,

00:52:14.780 your take on the debate about these pro-Hamas agitators at American universities

00:52:19.960 having their visas revoked, being deported.

00:52:23.500 Obviously, the left is suddenly – they suddenly care about the First Amendment.

00:52:28.880 They suddenly care about the constitutional rights of individuals.

00:52:32.740 And they are saying these people are peaceful protesters.

00:52:36.280 They shouldn't get their visas revoked simply because the Trump administration

00:52:39.980 doesn't like their position on Palestine v. Israel.

00:52:43.820 And then, of course, you've got Stephen Miller and others, Marco Rubio, saying,

00:52:47.780 no, a visa is a privilege.

00:52:49.660 It's not a right.

00:52:50.820 And if you are supporting a terrorist regime, then you should not be here.

00:52:55.100 I think I know where you land on this, but tell me how you've kind of worked through this yourself.

00:52:59.380 Yeah, so first of all, before getting into the immigration context of it,

00:53:03.900 it really is just deeply ironic that the left has finally found this one particular form of speech

00:53:10.480 or purported speech, as the case sometimes is,

00:53:12.900 that they are absolutely ACLU-style free speech absolutists about.

00:53:17.680 You know, it's been a long time coming.

00:53:19.100 I mean, they are the ones who have notoriously tried to shut down

00:53:22.940 and censor the opposition for years and years and years.

00:53:25.520 And now, ever since October 7th on American university campuses,

00:53:29.360 you can call for genocide, you can call for the most abhorrent, disgusting stuff,

00:53:33.560 but all of a sudden you have a free speech absolutist right to say it.

00:53:37.220 I actually did a debate at Harvard last April on this very topic there.

00:53:41.260 And frankly, just the continuing hypocrisy of the left just really never ceases to blow my mind.

00:53:46.240 But on the actual legal point, you're dealing with Mahmoud Khalil,

00:53:49.640 with this kidney doctor at Brown University,

00:53:52.060 this researcher or whatever with the Hamas spouse at Georgetown University,

00:53:56.860 basically Doha on the Potomac.

00:53:58.880 I mean, these various other kind of Hamas-connected sycophants who are not U.S. citizens.

00:54:03.080 I frankly can't believe how people are just missing the forest for the trees on this.

00:54:08.160 This is so straightforward as a matter of law.

00:54:10.940 If you are a United States citizen, you have full-fledged constitutional protections,

00:54:15.620 you have full-fledged Bill of Rights and so forth there.

00:54:17.840 It simply is not necessarily the exact same way for non-citizens.

00:54:21.960 If you are an alien here, legal or illegal there.

00:54:24.540 So to take one very clear example, let's talk about the Second Amendment.

00:54:27.820 If I'm a U.S. citizen, which, praise be to God, I am,

00:54:30.700 I can walk into Walmart tomorrow and buy whatever gun and ammunition I want to

00:54:34.100 as long as I pass an ATF federal background check.

00:54:36.260 That's not the case if you are an alien here, whether you're legal or illegal. 0.93

00:54:39.980 There are serious restrictions on how legal aliens, whether you're here on a student visa

00:54:43.660 or whether you're an LPR on a green card, can just walk into Walmart and buy a firearm.

00:54:48.260 So the Bill of Rights, the Constitution in general, does not actually operate the exact same way.

00:54:52.600 It really is quite a bit more nuanced.

00:54:54.260 More fundamentally, though, what you're saying about Stephen Miller and Marco Rubio there,

00:54:57.880 there is a long, long, unmitigated, continuous stream of cases from the Supreme Court on down

00:55:03.860 for really the entire history of the American Republic that basically says that if you are an alien here,

00:55:08.900 you can be removed anytime, for any reason, period, full stop, end of story.

00:55:14.020 I'll give you one kind of notable, powerful statement on this.

00:55:17.320 So Justice Robert Jackson, one of the great SCOTUS justices of the 20th century,

00:55:21.780 he was the prolific lead dissenter in the 1944 case called Korematsu.

00:55:26.700 That was the Japanese internment case.

00:55:28.140 It's considered to be one of the worst cases in Supreme Court history.

00:55:30.820 And he dissented on due process grounds.

00:55:33.240 So because of that, he's considered to be a champion of due process.

00:55:35.920 That's how the law school casebooks teach Justice Jackson.

00:55:38.900 He ends up being the chief prosecutor of the Nazi war criminals and the Nuremberg trials.

00:55:42.480 Very, very esteemed guy when it comes to due process.

00:55:44.980 He actually wrote in a 1953 case called Shaughnessy that due process does not entail the right

00:55:51.920 of any alien around the world to come here, to immigrate here.

00:55:55.280 And then once you are here as an alien, you have no due process right to stay here against the national will. 1.00

00:56:01.600 That's it.

00:56:02.100 The whole point is that we are sovereign.

00:56:04.140 And it is inherent in the entire notion of national sovereignty that when this quid pro quo of how we allowed you in,

00:56:12.060 when we, the people, the sovereign, are done with you, get out of here.

00:56:15.740 And this goes back all the way, again, to the origins of the republic.

00:56:18.420 Now, Congress can put in whatever extra constitutional protections for due process.

00:56:23.180 That's how you get these immigration court removal proceedings there in Article 2.

00:56:27.360 They're not even Article 3 proceedings.

00:56:28.580 They're Article 2 proceedings there.

00:56:29.700 That can all get in there, but that's just because Congress is choosing to act of its own volition.

00:56:34.760 As a constitutional threshold, as a basic kind of low barrier, low-level threshold there, you have no due process right to remain here.

00:56:44.160 So these guys have to get out.

00:56:45.940 Trump campaigned on it there.

00:56:47.340 He's doing a good job of it.

00:56:48.420 Frankly, I want to see a lot more of it to come there.

00:56:50.620 But it's really what's happening here, and I'll stop after this.

00:56:53.940 But I think what they're actually trying to do, Ali, they're really trying to collapse any distinction between citizen and non-citizen.

00:57:00.480 That's actually what's going on here.

00:57:02.200 They're really trying to basically bamboozle you into thinking that a Hamas sycophant, a total piece of garbage like a Mahmoud Khalil, 0.99

00:57:10.240 that he has the same rights as you and me because we're all the same there.

00:57:15.100 Well, actually, no, we're really not the same.

00:57:16.940 I mean citizen versus non-citizen is an important distinction there.

00:57:19.240 But that's the ultimate goal of the far left, isn't it, is to ultimately kind of George Sordo's Open Society Foundation, World Economic Forum there.

00:57:28.020 This literally is the goal of the globalists, is to actually eradicate the nation state.

00:57:33.280 And part of that is to eradicate any distinction between citizen and non-citizen.

00:57:37.240 So I think that is kind of the intellectual starting place that some of these arguments are coming from there.

00:57:41.680 But it's legally incoherent, and it's morally wrong, frankly, because the nation state happens to be a very good thing.

00:57:47.160 Yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:57:48.260 And this ties into your book and the thrust of your argument in your book, which is Israel and Civilization,

00:57:54.740 the Fate of the Jewish Nation, the Destiny of the West, is actually Israel, this tiny nation in the Middle East,

00:58:00.520 is at the tip of the spear when it comes to protecting Western civilization in a variety of ways,

00:58:06.440 but specifically against radical Islamification of the West.

00:58:10.920 So can you make the case for us that really Israel and the defense of Israel is on the front lines?

00:58:18.720 It is a high order of priority for everyone who loves Western civilization to defend Israel. 0.88

00:58:26.480 Make that argument for us.

00:58:27.880 Sure. So the book is called, Ali, Israel and Civilization, the Fate of the Jewish Nation, the Destiny of the West.

00:58:33.900 I think one key point is that the word Israel in the title has a double meaning, right?

00:58:38.780 It's referring, yes, to the capital S state of Israel, but also to the nation of Israel, the people of Israel, i.e. the Jewish peoples.

00:58:45.620 Maybe we'll table that and then come back to it perhaps there.

00:58:47.700 But the state of Israel is absolutely Western civilization's front line when it comes to the fight against really all three of the global forces that I identify as being a threat to Western civilization there. 0.89

00:58:59.960 And those three forces that I identify in the book as being a hegemonic threat threatening to engulf all of us, Jews and Christians alike here in the West,

00:59:07.340 are in no particular order wokeism, Islamism, and global neoliberalism.

00:59:11.660 And it really is the Jewish people and the state of Israel that oftentimes are the canary in the coal mine on, frankly, all three of these issues, actually.

00:59:19.220 So when it comes to wokeism, we've certainly seen since October 7th how much these woke DEI crazies on campuses hate the Jews there.

00:59:26.560 But you know what they also hate?

00:59:28.120 They also just hate Christians and white people and Mormons, Asians and various other groups as well there.

00:59:34.000 So, you know, it always starts with the Jews there. 1.00

00:59:36.440 But as history teaches us, it, of course, never ends with the Jews. 0.98

00:59:39.420 You come for the Saturday people first, then the Sunday people next. 0.59

00:59:42.680 We've seen this time and time again all throughout human history.

00:59:45.320 But on the Islamism issue there, yeah, Israel is transparently and obviously the West front man on the spot there.

00:59:51.780 The Trump administration certainly understands this.

00:59:53.920 That's why it was the most pro-Israel administration in American history the first time.

00:59:57.180 And they basically picked up right where they left off in this second administration.

01:00:01.260 It was this understanding, actually, that led to the dynamic Abraham Accords peace deals of 2020 where Israel made peace with the UAE, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco there.

01:00:10.280 You know, Ali, I'll give this one very concrete example as to how Israel literally is the West and, frankly, America's man on the spot, so to speak, when it comes to the radical Islamic issue.

01:00:20.220 And I hear from a lot of people when I speak on this topic on university campuses, a lot of them say, you know, what is the U.S. benefits from U.S.-Israel relations, right?

01:00:26.580 This is a very common question that I get with some increasing frequency these days there.

01:00:32.040 Well, let me explain to you in very concrete terms partially at least one part of what America benefits from this particular relationship.

01:00:38.220 So last summer, less than a year after October 7th, there was kind of a few-month stretch there where Israel went on this kind of grand revenge killing spree. 0.84

01:00:46.200 It kind of reminded me of Michael Corleone in the infamous baptism scene in The Godfather.

01:00:50.020 They decided to basically systematically just start knocking off a lot of their enemies.

01:00:53.440 And that culminated with the assassination of Yahya Sinwar in Gaza and Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah in Beirut, Lebanon.

01:01:00.780 But before they got Nasrallah, Israel and the IDF knocked off two other very high-ranking Hezbollah jihadists as well.

01:01:08.120 These two men's names were Fuad Shakur and Ibrahim Akil.

01:01:12.080 And who are Fuad Shakur and Ibrahim Akil?

01:01:13.880 I'd be very impressed if anyone out there watching this knows who they are.

01:01:16.700 So Fuad Shakur was the mastermind of the 1983 Beirut-Lebanon barracks bombings that slaughtered over 240 United States Marines.

01:01:25.560 Ibrahim Akil was the Hezbollah jihadi who was the head of the bombing at the U.S. embassy in Beirut, Lebanon.

01:01:30.420 That exact same year, that slaughtered between 60 and 70 Americans.

01:01:34.400 Those two men, for over four decades now, have had United States State Department bounties on their head of $5 and $7 million, respectively.

01:01:43.360 Nothing happened.

01:01:44.280 Literally nothing happened for four decades until the IDF just took them out last year.

01:01:49.160 So, again, I hear from a lot of people, you know, what is the U.S. benefit from U.S.'s relations?

01:01:53.140 Well, I mean, among other things, you know, you get a dead Fuad Shakur, a dead Ibrahim Akil, and, oh, by the way, a dead Hassan Nasrallah and a dead Yahya Sinwar to boot there.

01:02:01.320 So, I mean, they literally are our man on the spot, essentially doing our dirty work for us.

01:02:06.140 They really don't ask a whole lot in return other than just don't overly criticize us and provide some diplomatic cover at the United Nations.

01:02:13.120 That's essentially the ask.

01:02:14.420 It seems to me to be a pretty reasonable ask, given the bank for your buck.

01:02:17.460 Yes.

01:02:17.900 You know, there's this very troubling—I know you've seen it, too.

01:02:20.760 We've talked about it just a little bit.

01:02:24.420 But this idea among some Christians here who maybe just frankly don't like Jewish people, maybe they just don't like Israel,

01:02:31.000 but this idea that actually Muslims and Christians have more in common, their beliefs about Jesus are more similar,

01:02:38.640 and that we've been—I've seen this argument.

01:02:41.280 It's crazy to me that we've been psyoped into believing that Islam is the real problem

01:02:49.200 when really Islam has a lot of similarities to Christianity when it comes to morality and things like that.

01:02:55.020 I mean, just on its face, just like a rote understanding of Christian theology should be able to tell someone that that is so far from the truth.

01:03:05.120 Obviously, all three of these Abrahamic religions have different ideas about who Jesus was.

01:03:10.880 But with Jews and Christians, we share half of our Bible.

01:03:15.140 We share the Old Testament.

01:03:16.700 We have a belief in the Imago Dei.

01:03:18.680 The fundamentals of Western civilization that really can be found, for the most part, in the first 11 chapters of the Bible.

01:03:27.120 Like, we share those things.

01:03:29.020 And when it comes to Christian persecution, who is persecuting Christians most around the world,

01:03:33.780 especially when I look in places like Africa?

01:03:36.240 It's these Islamists. 1.00

01:03:37.640 I mean, Christians are being beheaded in places like the Congo from these radical Muslims. 1.00

01:03:42.460 And so, to me, it is unbelievable propaganda that has no grounding in reality that it's actually Islam and Christianity that are anyway on the same side. 0.53

01:03:54.140 And I don't think this is a majority position, but I see Muslims here in America, whether it's Andrew Tate or people like that, saying,

01:04:01.660 Yeah, you know, Christ is king.

01:04:03.820 We're on the same side of things.

01:04:05.700 No, we're not.

01:04:06.680 And you argue in your book, not when it comes to all of our theology, but when it comes to our defense of Western civilization and the underlying values,

01:04:15.580 that it's actually Jews and Christians that have this very important alliance that we need to realize, right?

01:04:22.180 Yeah, that's very well said.

01:04:23.660 And look, this notion that Christianity and Islam are kind of, you know, two toddlers playing in a kindergarten,

01:04:31.240 that they're kind of holding hands and all is merry there.

01:04:33.320 I mean, has anyone expounding this ludicrous theory ever opened a book of world history?

01:04:38.500 I mean, have they read about the Crusades?

01:04:41.280 You know, have you read about the fact that there was a Muslim siege all the way deep into the heart of Vienna, Austria,

01:04:46.900 as recently as the 17th century there?

01:04:49.200 I mean, how about the fact that America's first two wars after the Revolutionary War were literally against Muslim pirates, 0.83

01:04:55.040 the First and Second Barbary War?

01:04:56.800 You know, when I was taught history in elementary school, we basically skipped over that conveniently.

01:05:00.820 But that happens to have been the case there.

01:05:03.100 So, I mean, this notion that Islam and Christianity are somehow, you know, peanut butter and jelly and all was merry there, 1.00

01:05:09.560 it's just astonishing.

01:05:11.120 And you could, of course, debunk it on much stronger grounds than I could there.

01:05:13.920 But it's coming fundamentally, I think, from a bad place.

01:05:16.860 It's coming from provocateurs, from, frankly, bad faith actors. 0.97

01:05:20.420 And these bad faith actors, I think, Ali, what they're trying to do is they are trying to drive a wedge,

01:05:25.020 they're trying to drive a chasm between Christians and Jews. 0.58

01:05:28.600 And I think basically he's trying to bamboozle both Christians and Jews that the other is oppressing you

01:05:34.140 and it's not a good fit for you and just basically get out of this bear hug relationship.

01:05:38.940 And trying to heal these wounds that other provocateurs have gashed wide open,

01:05:44.760 trying to heal that wound was a major, major, major purpose of me writing this book, Israel and Civilization.

01:05:49.920 So, you know, in the book, Ali, I basically argue we're talking about Western civilization.

01:05:54.180 Well, I'm a lawyer, as we discussed.

01:05:55.480 Let's define some terms, as lawyers do.

01:05:57.100 What is Western civilization?

01:05:58.520 Well, I argue that Western civilization is basically coterminous with the Bible,

01:06:03.720 that Western civilization and the Bible are essentially interchangeable for one another.

01:06:08.660 I trace it all the way back to God's revelation to Moses and the Israelites standing there in the book of Exodus at Mount Sinai.

01:06:14.520 And the Jewish people, the children of Israel, the nation of Israel, they are the original people of the book.

01:06:20.420 They are the people that brought monotheism to the world.

01:06:23.760 Christianity and Christendom, of course, built Western civilization,

01:06:26.940 but it built Western civilization off of a fundamentally Jewish underpinning there.

01:06:31.620 It was the Jewish people that brought so many of the values that we take for granted today to the world.

01:06:36.740 You mentioned Genesis 127.

01:06:38.400 In Hebrew, we would say betzel melchim, imago Dei.

01:06:41.500 I argue in the book that Genesis 127, that God made man in his image, man and woman he created.

01:06:46.620 That is a single foundational ethical and moral imperative for all of Western civilization.

01:06:51.100 But there's so many other examples.

01:06:52.760 I mean, let's take something as basic, prosaic, as day-to-day, as the golden rule.

01:06:56.600 Treat others as you would like to be treated.

01:06:58.480 Well, where is that found?

01:06:59.720 It's Leviticus chapter 19.

01:07:01.580 It's the imperative to treat the stranger as your fellow.

01:07:04.980 Speaking of the book of Leviticus, by the way, there,

01:07:07.560 I note that on the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia to this day,

01:07:11.140 it's not a quote from Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics or anything there on the outside.

01:07:15.060 It's Leviticus.

01:07:16.120 Thou shalt proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof.

01:07:20.460 Benjamin Franklin Thomas Jefferson famously wanted the national seal of the United States

01:07:24.560 to be Moses parting the Red Sea.

01:07:26.740 Abraham Lincoln famously spoke of Americans as a, quote,

01:07:29.680 almost chosen people using this covenantal language from the Hebrew Bible,

01:07:33.620 which he quoted all the time in his public speeches there.

01:07:36.480 So this notion of kind of an ecumenical biblical country

01:07:40.280 is just so deeply ingrained in the American DNA.

01:07:43.660 And I really, really do see that slipping away there.

01:07:46.360 And again, trying to kind of put Humpty Dumpty back together again,

01:07:49.120 it's an ambitious task, but that definitely is one of the things

01:07:51.200 that I was trying to do with this book there.

01:07:53.000 But again, to your point, Ali, just really concretely there,

01:07:55.740 we obviously do share so much.

01:07:58.740 I mean, our Bible in Hebrew, it's Hebrew and Hebrew, it's called the Tanakh.

01:08:02.980 That is half of your Bible.

01:08:05.140 Frankly, based on page numbers, maybe it's even more than half,

01:08:08.500 but it's a very healthy percentage there.

01:08:10.440 So I mean, whether we're talking about the books of Genesis or Exodus,

01:08:12.840 whether we're talking about books of Psalms and Proverbs,

01:08:15.780 I mean, there's so much there that literally built this civilization,

01:08:20.220 that literally was the pedestal upon which all of this was possibly structured there.

01:08:24.500 And the fundamental argument in the book, Ali,

01:08:26.740 is that Jews and Christians have to stand shoulder to shoulder like never before,

01:08:30.700 because we face the exact same threats, wokeism, Islamism, global neoliberalism.

01:08:35.480 So it's the homogenizing imperative to stamp out all differences.

01:08:39.480 That's the globalist world economic foreign problem.

01:08:41.840 Islamism speaks for itself. 0.99

01:08:43.340 Yes, they come for the Jews first, but Hamas explicitly says they want to come for,

01:08:46.920 quote, unquote, all infidels later. 0.90

01:08:48.380 That includes Christians and frankly, actually, most Muslims for the matter there.

01:08:52.280 And on and on it goes there.

01:08:53.420 So we have the exact same enemies.

01:08:55.220 And in today's day and age, we absolutely are at an inflection point, as is often said there.

01:09:00.220 But that moment calls for nothing less than a joint Jewish-Christian ecumenical project of biblical restoration.

01:09:05.840 That's the argument in Israel and civilization.

01:09:08.280 And I think our task is really kind of convincing, like professing progressive Christians 0.97

01:09:13.160 and then all of the progressive Jews that just don't see things the way we do 0.97

01:09:17.740 when it comes to those fundamental values of Western civilization.

01:09:21.500 We have a big task at hand when it comes to that.

01:09:24.700 And I'm sure that that is at least in part the purpose of your book, to convince people of that imperative.

01:09:31.800 And I'm grateful for it, as always, in your insight.

01:09:34.880 Israel and civilization, the fate of the Jewish nation, and the destiny of the West.

01:09:38.860 I'm guessing it's available wherever books are sold.

01:09:42.160 Yeah, everywhere books are sold.

01:09:43.300 Amazon, Barnes & Noble.

01:09:44.420 It actually sold out on Amazon the morning of publication.

01:09:47.440 Awesome.

01:09:47.620 So this thing came out with a bang.

01:09:48.840 I'm very grateful for that, for everyone's support of Israel, of biblical values, frankly.

01:09:54.860 But nonetheless, it is being replenished in real time.

01:09:57.460 So Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Books a Million.

01:09:59.820 Again, the book is Israel and Civilization, the fate of the Jewish nation, and the destiny of the West.

01:10:04.020 Well, thank you so much, Josh.

01:10:05.140 I really appreciate it.

01:10:06.840 My pleasure.

01:10:07.380 Thank you, Ali.

01:10:07.760 Thank you.

01:10:07.820 Thank you.

01:10:08.320 Thank you.

01:10:08.820 Thank you.

01:10:09.820 Thank you.

01:10:10.320 Thank you.

01:10:10.820 Thank you.

01:10:11.820 Thank you.

01:10:12.820 Thank you.

01:10:13.820 Thank you.

01:10:14.320 Thank you.

01:10:14.820 Thank you.

01:10:14.880 Thank you.

01:10:15.820 Thank you.

01:10:16.820 Thank you.

01:10:18.820 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 26, 2025

Ep 1161 ｜ 'The Handmaid's Tale' Is Back & Ignores the Actual Forced Birth Industry ｜ Guest： Josh Hammer

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