Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 07, 2025


Ep 1167 ｜ Meryl Streep Can’t Be Aslan & the Truth About Prosperity Teaching in the 'Black Church'


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 4 minutes

Words per Minute

167.5607

Word Count

10,735

Sentence Count

809


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.780 Meryl Streep is in talks to play Aslan in Greta Gerwig's new adaptation of the Chronicles of Narnia.
00:00:08.980 And man, do I have thoughts about that?
00:00:11.240 I will also be responding to the controversy that was apparently created by my conversation on this show just a couple weeks ago
00:00:21.420 when Melissa Doherty and I discussed the prosperity gospel in majority Black churches.
00:00:28.280 My, oh my.
00:00:30.540 All right.
00:00:31.020 Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:34.020 Go to GoodRanchers.com.
00:00:35.340 Use code Allie at checkout.
00:00:36.320 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.
00:00:47.280 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.
00:00:49.020 Happy Monday.
00:00:50.020 Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.
00:00:53.360 All right.
00:00:53.700 We've got a few things to talk about today, but I don't have producer Brie here.
00:00:58.280 To talk about the first subject, which is Meryl Streep possibly playing Aslan in Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, a new adaptation of that.
00:01:07.420 I really wanted to get her thoughts, but she is sick today.
00:01:10.660 So please pray for producer Brie that she would make a quick and full recovery and be back here so we can talk about all the important stuff.
00:01:20.220 But I'll give you my take on it, and then we can see what she thinks when she is back and ready to give her commentary.
00:01:27.980 But before we get into the topics today, I just want to remind you guys, Share the Arrows.
00:01:32.500 This is October 11th in Dallas, Texas.
00:01:35.060 This is a Christian women's conference for Christian women who want solid and deep theology, who don't want to be coddled, who don't want to hear all about how beautiful and enough they are, who don't just want a gospel of self-fulfillment, but really want biblical truth.
00:01:54.640 They want to be challenged, they want to be equipped in their calling, in their motherhood, in whatever space God has placed them in.
00:02:02.900 This conference is for you.
00:02:04.700 If you want to be able to face a hostile culture with the courage that comes from knowing God's Word and through the power of the Holy Spirit, then Share the Arrows is for you.
00:02:15.440 Share the Arrows if you don't know what that name is from.
00:02:19.100 That was an ism, is an ism, that we have used on the show for a long time, and it is how I describe what I believe Christians are called to do when we see a fellow believer getting lambasted, getting attacked, getting canceled, if you want to call it that, for simply standing up for what is right.
00:02:39.980 So whether that's a business owner or whether that's an influencer or whatever it is, if they are in a public space, whether it's in their own community or online, and they are standing up for something that is biblically true, and they are getting attacked, harassed for it, their business is getting threatened, threatened over it, rather than us watching that go down and saying, whew, glad that's not me.
00:03:06.300 Glad that I'm not in that position. No, no, no, no, no. We stand up and we say, you know, that thing that they're getting attacked for, I believe it too.
00:03:15.460 And we all stand up and we share the arrows that are being lodged at them.
00:03:20.600 And we say, you can call me whatever you want, you can do whatever you want, but we're not going to allow them to stand alone.
00:03:28.080 It's actually a very positive way to respond to bullying, because rather than just returning evil with evil, we are showing solidarity and courage with our fellow believers.
00:03:39.080 By the way, that is a really good method of defending the least of these, my brothers, that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 25.
00:03:49.880 He is talking specifically in that passage about persecuted Christians.
00:03:54.860 And while persecution here doesn't look the same as it looks in Yemen or China, I don't pretend that it does.
00:04:01.100 It still counts. When Jack Phillips, the baker at Masterpiece Cake Shop, has had his life completely, I won't say completely ruined, because God has used his story for good and has really protected him.
00:04:18.040 But there has been a systematic attempt at ruining his life for more than a decade through malicious lawfare, because he would not bake a cake celebrating either gender transitions or the so-called marriage between two men.
00:04:35.760 Yeah, that counts as persecution. It does.
00:04:39.420 And so whether it's on a big scale or a small scale, we Christians stand up and say, yeah, we are with you.
00:04:47.380 We're praying for you. We're going to encourage you.
00:04:51.040 And we are going to repeat what you're saying, because we will not apologize for God.
00:04:56.620 We're not trying to let him off the hook. We're not trying to outnice God.
00:05:00.400 We believe God. We love God.
00:05:02.560 And so we will publicly defend what he says, no matter what the world calls it.
00:05:07.120 So that is sharing the arrows and how we do that, how we get the courage to do that is by, of course, being empowered by his spirit.
00:05:18.080 But knowing him and knowing his word and knowing apologetics and knowing where the church should stand on all these controversial culture war issues.
00:05:29.760 And so that's what every year is going to be dedicated to it, share the arrows.
00:05:34.780 But we have different speakers focusing on different things this year.
00:05:37.740 We've got Elisa Childers, and she, like she did last year, we'll talk about apologetics.
00:05:42.480 But from a new perspective this year, we also will have Ginger Duggar-Vuolo, who left a life of legalism to understand the true gospel.
00:05:51.440 We'll have a health panel, how to biblically approach holistic health.
00:05:54.880 We've got Shauna Holman, and we've got Taylor Dukes on that.
00:05:59.620 And then Katie Faust, you guys know and love Katie Faust.
00:06:02.260 You know that she's going to be talking about child-centered politics, IVF, reproductive technology, marriage, all of that.
00:06:10.360 We are going to be led in worship by Francesca Battistelli.
00:06:13.920 And then yours truly will be there as well, giving a speech.
00:06:17.780 What am I going to talk about?
00:06:19.220 I don't know.
00:06:20.120 I never know until right before.
00:06:22.600 But this, Share the Arrows is different.
00:06:24.660 It's not going to be a last-minute preparation for me.
00:06:27.460 It's going to be a new and unique and special message just for the attendees there.
00:06:32.320 It's outside of Dallas, Texas, October 11th.
00:06:35.680 Make sure that you get your tickets now because this is a stadium with separate seats.
00:06:41.240 It's not pews like it was last year.
00:06:42.860 We can't cram people in.
00:06:44.680 If you've got a seat, you've got a seat.
00:06:45.920 If you don't, you don't.
00:06:46.880 And we could run out.
00:06:48.340 We're on the trajectory to do that, actually.
00:06:50.320 So make sure that you get your tickets now.
00:06:52.420 Go to sharethearrows.com.
00:06:55.180 Get those tickets.
00:06:56.040 Cannot wait to see you there.
00:06:57.840 Sharethearrows.com.
00:06:59.320 All right.
00:06:59.920 Let's talk about this ridiculousness.
00:07:01.540 Let's talk about Meryl Streep being potentially tapped to play Aslan in The Lion, the Witch,
00:07:08.900 and the Wardrobe, The Chronicles of Narnia.
00:07:11.280 All right.
00:07:11.680 I love C.S. Lewis.
00:07:13.220 I don't think you can see.
00:07:15.440 And I don't want to ask Nathan to change the camera too much because it might be hard to
00:07:20.240 readjust.
00:07:20.860 But right above my shoulder right here.
00:07:23.660 Maybe we can.
00:07:24.260 Can we see it in the wide shot at all?
00:07:26.080 Oh, he's.
00:07:27.000 Oh, thank you so much.
00:07:28.860 You are a hero.
00:07:30.300 We've got C.S. Lewis, OK?
00:07:32.720 Next to my blue bonnets.
00:07:34.640 And we've got a C.S. Lewis book up there.
00:07:36.580 I love C.S. Lewis.
00:07:38.340 His works were absolutely formative in my faith.
00:07:43.420 And I'm just so thankful, especially for Mere Christianity and for Screwtape Letters.
00:07:50.380 Those were the two books I read junior year of high school that completely opened up a
00:07:55.700 whole new intellectual Christian world for me.
00:07:59.640 And I still am struck by the truths that I read in those books every time I read them.
00:08:04.300 If you have not read Screwtape Letters and Mere Christianity, you have to read those.
00:08:08.760 I just sent not only an ESV study Bible, but I sent Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters
00:08:15.800 to a new Christian because I just think they are so important.
00:08:19.240 They are not the end-all be-all when it comes to Christian theology.
00:08:23.940 I wouldn't even call them necessarily a primer on Christian theology, but they are good,
00:08:28.920 especially Mere Christianity.
00:08:30.500 It lays like a really good basis for understanding that God exists and that Christianity is true.
00:08:38.200 And of course, if you know C.S. Lewis, he was an atheist.
00:08:41.300 And so he's coming from that skeptical, scholarly position in all of his writings.
00:08:47.180 And I just appreciate him so much.
00:08:49.660 Every time I read C.S. Lewis, I'm like, I know that, you know, some things are obviously
00:08:53.880 very complex and he's 10 times smarter than I am, but I get it.
00:08:58.660 I don't know.
00:08:59.400 Just how he writes and how he speaks and how he explains things, it just tickles my brain.
00:09:04.300 Something clicks and I just feel that I intuitively understand what he's talking about.
00:09:10.680 And yet it's so layered that every time I read it, I find something new.
00:09:15.280 So needless to say, the Chronicles of Narnia, especially The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe,
00:09:19.760 are very near and dear to me.
00:09:21.900 Thankfully, my oldest child has inherited my love of reading.
00:09:25.300 We have read through The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe multiple times.
00:09:30.080 She's not quite to that reading level yet herself.
00:09:33.020 She's only five, but she has sat and listened to me and it's timeless.
00:09:38.300 I mean, the word pictures that he draws are just amazing.
00:09:42.440 I still cry when I read the scene, spoilers, of Aslan, the lion being slain and being tied
00:09:54.680 up, helpless, like a sheep being led to the slaughter.
00:09:58.800 And then the beautiful, triumphant scene of Aslan coming back to life because the witch
00:10:05.920 didn't understand what is called the deeper, deeper magic that was at play there, she forgot
00:10:12.660 about it.
00:10:14.100 It's just a really beautiful depiction of who Jesus is as the Lion of Judah and his power.
00:10:23.980 It's not an exact parallel by any means, but it is a really cool way to get your children
00:10:32.100 and even get yourself just thinking about the gospel in a new way.
00:10:37.220 So this series, and especially this book and all of C.S. Lewis's works, but they're really
00:10:44.220 important to Christian history, the Christian tradition, especially just like our modern
00:10:50.460 understanding of God and the gospel.
00:10:53.440 So that means in respect to Christianity, you need to get it right, especially if you are
00:11:01.120 someone like Greta Gerwig.
00:11:04.180 Greta Gerwig is an Oscar-winning actress, or no, sorry, she is a director.
00:11:10.260 It's Meryl Streep who's the Oscar-winning actress.
00:11:12.140 I just read that sentence incorrectly.
00:11:13.960 So she is the director of movies like Barbie.
00:11:18.560 Gerwig is a Unitarian Universalist, okay?
00:11:22.520 So she doesn't believe in the deity of Christ.
00:11:26.920 She doesn't believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes
00:11:30.180 to the Father except through him, John 14, 6.
00:11:32.940 She's not a Christian.
00:11:34.640 She did say to Time Magazine in 2024 that she loved the books.
00:11:38.660 She loved the adventure and the stillness, the wonder and the truth.
00:11:42.040 It's a world I've lived in through my imagination for so long.
00:11:46.000 I'm sorry.
00:11:46.620 I think that you are disqualified, though, from directing a series like this.
00:11:54.140 She's directing this new adaptation.
00:11:55.980 It's coming to Netflix, and she clearly doesn't share the worldview of C.S. Lewis.
00:12:02.740 Now, is it possible to direct an adaptation, even if you are a non-Christian?
00:12:07.800 It is possible.
00:12:09.200 But you have to respect the underlying, undeniably Christian truths that are there.
00:12:15.060 And one of those undeniable Christian truths is that Jesus was a man, and that Aslan was
00:12:23.260 a male lion to represent the Lion of Judah, to represent Christ.
00:12:28.980 And if we are going to negate that, if we are going to ignore that by having Meryl Streep,
00:12:36.580 who, of course, is amazing—I'm a fan of her acting abilities—if we are going to ignore
00:12:42.020 that, then that shows a profound disrespect, not only of C.S. Lewis, of this story, but also
00:12:48.840 the Christian truth that it is meant to reflect.
00:12:52.700 And so that's my problem with this.
00:12:55.520 I mean, obviously, Aslan is a male lion.
00:12:59.140 There are multiple references throughout Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe of him shaking
00:13:02.820 his mane.
00:13:03.880 And you just don't have the same, like, regalness, if I can say that, in a female lion.
00:13:12.900 Because, of course, we know that lions are the king of the jungle.
00:13:18.360 They have this kind of confidence that is respected even by the top of the food chain,
00:13:26.400 the human race.
00:13:27.640 And there is something to that.
00:13:29.520 Again, there is a reason why Jesus is referred to as the Lion of Judah.
00:13:34.720 And there is something so beautiful that the Lion of Judah voluntarily became a lamb, like
00:13:42.260 a sheep sent to the slaughter.
00:13:44.900 Um, and so if we're getting rid of that, if we're getting rid of the specificity of this
00:13:51.160 story that is representative of the gospel, then to me, this whole thing is discredited.
00:13:57.360 So I thought at first that this was not real.
00:14:01.320 I saw it reported by some, uh, X account, but it didn't have a link.
00:14:06.960 And I was like, this is rage bait.
00:14:08.700 If you don't know what rage bait is, those are just posts that are put out there because
00:14:14.260 they are trying to gain engagement.
00:14:17.940 It could be called like engagement farming.
00:14:20.040 They know people are going to be outraged.
00:14:21.900 They know people are going to talk about it, but it's not even true.
00:14:25.600 So I didn't comment on it.
00:14:27.300 I didn't say anything about it.
00:14:28.860 But then I saw more reputable sources picking it up.
00:14:32.320 And I was like, okay, I guess it's okay for me to talk about it now.
00:14:35.120 So she directed, Gerwig directed Barbie, Little Women, and then it was reported by the Hollywood
00:14:41.180 Reporter also, uh, that she would be involved in the Chronicles of Narnia.
00:14:46.620 People talked about it then.
00:14:47.980 I still didn't talk about it because I was like, maybe it's not true.
00:14:50.660 But then Deadline reported on April 3rd, uh, that Meryl Streep is being considered for
00:14:56.980 this role.
00:14:57.840 She has not been given an offer.
00:15:00.000 Okay.
00:15:00.320 Let's make that clear.
00:15:01.100 She has not yet been given an offer to play the role of Aslan, the great lion, but confirmed
00:15:06.540 she is in talks.
00:15:08.280 Aslan is, you know, as I already said, the pivotal character in these books.
00:15:13.160 C.S.
00:15:13.460 Lewis said that he crafted Aslan as an allegorical representation of Jesus Christ and a 1954 letter
00:15:20.800 to a child, uh, about the storyline, the witch and the wardrobe.
00:15:26.020 He said, Aslan is meant to represent what Christ might be like in another world.
00:15:31.420 And if you don't already know, I know I kind of already referenced this, but Aslan sacrifices
00:15:35.340 himself on the stone table to save Edmund.
00:15:38.920 Now, Edmund is the child who betrayed him, but he is, Aslan is sacrificing himself on his
00:15:47.380 behalf.
00:15:47.820 And then he rises again.
00:15:50.620 Um, he's voiced by Liam Neeson in the 2005 to 2010 film trilogy, which I think is a great
00:15:57.160 option and makes sense.
00:16:00.300 Meryl Streep makes no sense.
00:16:02.460 Um, again, uh, throughout the book, he is referenced as male.
00:16:08.600 So it seems like it really wouldn't be that difficult to simply, um, stay true to that.
00:16:16.460 You would only not stay true to that if you were trying to make a theological and political
00:16:22.100 statement about the patriarchy within Christianity or patriarchy within, you know, white British
00:16:30.120 literary works, and you're disrupting that and you are shattering glass ceilings by having
00:16:37.180 Meryl Streep, who, you know, has always been so oppressed because she's a woman voice this
00:16:42.220 character.
00:16:42.720 That would be the only reason you're doing it.
00:16:44.320 It's not because there are no men who are up to the task.
00:16:50.040 Of course there are.
00:16:50.900 It would be a very purposeful subversion.
00:16:53.140 And I think blatant disrespect to Christianity.
00:16:57.160 The film is set for theatrical IMAX release.
00:17:00.180 I didn't even know we were still doing that.
00:17:02.300 I didn't know that people were releasing films and you could go see it in IMAX.
00:17:06.460 I have not been to a movie theater in a very long time.
00:17:08.720 Um, Thanksgiving, 2026, followed by a Netflix debut on Christmas, 2026.
00:17:15.140 Okay.
00:17:16.080 You have time, Greta Gerwig.
00:17:18.380 You have time to change your mind on this.
00:17:21.760 I mean, probably not very much time.
00:17:23.780 I'm actually, now that I'm saying that, I'm actually kind of surprised that we're in the
00:17:27.320 year 2025 and you're still making these decisions.
00:17:30.540 So I guess I just don't totally understand how long it takes to do these things, but let's
00:17:35.720 not.
00:17:36.420 Okay.
00:17:36.880 Let's, let's not pick Meryl Streep.
00:17:39.720 Let's pick a man with a deep booming voice.
00:17:42.960 Let's keep Aslan a male lion.
00:17:45.740 That's a part of the story.
00:17:47.320 That's a central part of the story.
00:17:48.880 You don't have to believe in the underlying truth of the allegory, but don't rob the rest
00:17:55.680 of us of that.
00:17:57.820 Okay.
00:17:58.240 Let's pray for Greta Gerwig.
00:18:00.140 Okay.
00:18:00.500 Let's, I'm serious about this.
00:18:02.100 Let's pray for her and all of the people working on this, that as they are digging into this
00:18:07.840 story and what it really means and the allegory used, that they would understand the gospel,
00:18:14.780 that they would be struck by the amazing reality that there was a perfect savior who died on the
00:18:22.940 cross, who sacrificed himself on behalf of those who betrayed him, that maybe through
00:18:30.000 this, like her heart would be softened, that she would come to know the Lord, that she would
00:18:34.660 be a Christian and that we could actually see the beautiful redemption that is depicted through
00:18:39.860 the story, through her own conversion.
00:18:41.460 That's what we should pray.
00:18:42.820 And we should also pray that through this adaptation, that people would dig more into C.S. Lewis, that
00:18:48.780 they would dig more into the Bible and understand the gospel, that they would be drawn to the
00:18:52.760 person of, or the character of Aslan as a representation of Jesus.
00:19:00.800 So let's just pray that they get it right, because this really, really matters.
00:19:06.960 And I'll just leave you with this quote from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
00:19:10.160 If you have not read this yet, if your kids have not read this, go right now, go get it.
00:19:15.340 Get it on Amazon.
00:19:16.280 Get it at wherever.
00:19:17.640 Go to your Christian bookstore.
00:19:19.720 Get it and read it.
00:19:21.780 Read it yourself and read it with your kids.
00:19:24.340 Again, I cry.
00:19:25.320 I'm like my throat.
00:19:27.160 I get a lump in my throat when I'm reading this with my children, because I'm just reminded,
00:19:31.600 wow, God loves us so much.
00:19:33.500 He loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us.
00:19:37.260 Jesus loves us so much that he sacrificed himself on our behalf, taking on our punishment
00:19:43.040 that we deserved just so we could be friends with God and be saved and live forever.
00:19:49.380 And I didn't do anything to earn that, just like Edmund did everything not to earn that sacrifice.
00:19:54.920 We are Edmund.
00:19:56.100 And, oh my goodness, go read it.
00:19:58.480 Go read it, okay?
00:19:59.480 And Greta, don't get this wrong.
00:20:01.560 So here's a quote from the book.
00:20:05.100 Wrong will be right when Aslan comes in sight.
00:20:08.020 At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more.
00:20:11.140 When he bares his teeth, winter meets its death.
00:20:13.960 And when he shakes his mane, we will have spring again.
00:20:18.340 That doesn't really work for a female lion, by the way.
00:20:22.080 So again, the core of this, part of this, a huge part of this, is who Aslan actually is
00:20:28.660 as a male lion.
00:20:31.080 So let's just hope and pray that they change course.
00:20:34.880 All right.
00:20:35.560 We got to talk about a controversy.
00:20:37.420 I haven't done this in a long time, talking about a reaction or controversy that my show
00:20:43.760 caused.
00:20:44.460 I mean, every episode that we put out there, of course, there are going to be people angry
00:20:50.180 at it.
00:20:50.880 And that's just part of it.
00:20:52.540 I don't enjoy that.
00:20:54.360 Some people might be like, oh, you know, people just generate conflict for clicks.
00:20:58.760 I did not think that what I'm about to talk about would cause conflict.
00:21:03.000 I had no idea.
00:21:04.340 That is actually never, ever, ever my goal, not my desire.
00:21:08.440 I don't want that.
00:21:09.620 I don't like that.
00:21:10.460 It actually doesn't help me.
00:21:12.060 I know people like to kind of dismiss people they disagree with by saying, oh, they're just
00:21:17.600 saying that thing I disagree with because they want more attention or they want more money
00:21:21.240 or whatever.
00:21:22.080 Or maybe they just really believe it.
00:21:24.060 Like, maybe they just said something that you disagree with that you really believe
00:21:28.080 or that you are really curious about.
00:21:29.680 And that is certainly the case when it comes to this next subject.
00:21:34.040 And it's going to be controversial.
00:21:35.640 OK, it's going to be controversial.
00:21:37.320 But apparently my little question just kicked a hornet's nest.
00:21:42.140 And now we have to get into it because now claims are being made about me and the questions
00:21:45.940 that I ask that are simply not true.
00:21:47.880 And so we've got to shed light on them.
00:21:49.680 OK, I didn't start this.
00:21:51.400 I will say I did not start this conflict.
00:21:54.060 But I am going to address it.
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00:23:04.160 So a few weeks ago, I had Melissa Doherty on the show to talk about her new book.
00:23:16.060 I actually have it right here still.
00:23:19.900 So I'll promote it again.
00:23:21.000 Happy Lies, How a Movement You Probably Never Heard of Shaped Our Self-Obsessed World.
00:23:25.720 So we talked about the new age and new thought.
00:23:28.520 Also how the prosperity gospel fits into that.
00:23:32.480 We talked about the usual suspects, purveyors of the prosperity gospel that I have talked
00:23:38.560 about many, many times on this show.
00:23:41.620 Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, so many.
00:23:47.200 You guys, if you've been following me for any amount of time, you know, I talk a good
00:23:51.460 bit about the prosperity gospel.
00:23:53.520 I wrote about it extensively in my first book and also how it intersects with the new age.
00:23:59.260 That is part of what my first book is about too.
00:24:01.440 Oh, you're not enough and that's okay.
00:24:03.960 And I talked about how people like even Glennon Doyle and Rachel Hollis, these cult of self
00:24:10.100 affirmation leaders who tell us to worship the God of self, how those are really intertwined.
00:24:16.000 So that was part of our discussion.
00:24:18.520 But we had one segment, one short segment of the discussion where I dared to ask a question
00:24:25.860 about majority black churches, not the majority of black churches, but majority black churches.
00:24:33.400 Here's thought one.
00:24:35.020 This seems to be especially prevalent in majority black churches.
00:24:39.740 There's a lot of prosperity preaching, but a lot of, as you're talking, I'm like, I've heard
00:24:44.500 that a lot.
00:24:45.020 You are divine.
00:24:45.860 You are a queen.
00:24:46.700 You are, you know, a goddess, something special.
00:24:51.200 And I don't know.
00:24:52.440 I don't know if you've ever talked about the roots of that or why that is.
00:24:55.680 It's interesting you bring that up.
00:24:57.380 That is a controversial question, especially today's political climate.
00:25:00.400 But I guarantee there's a lot of people watching that are like, Allie's not wrong.
00:25:04.840 You know, there's something there.
00:25:06.920 And I was reading Kate Bowler's book.
00:25:08.640 Do you know who that is?
00:25:09.360 Yeah.
00:25:10.160 And there's a whole section on this that she talks about with the black church and the
00:25:16.220 prosperity gospel and all these other theologies that kind of entered into the black church.
00:25:23.080 I mean, Carlton Pearson is one of them.
00:25:25.180 Carlton Pearson was a Pentecostal word of faith preacher.
00:25:28.540 Reverend Ike and both of them were very off when it came to a lot of their their teachings.
00:25:35.100 That's like an origin there in that regard.
00:25:37.160 I haven't looked too much into it, but you're not wrong.
00:25:40.820 OK, so I had no idea that that was going to cause any controversy.
00:25:48.380 I started getting some random messages on Instagram, though, from people who didn't follow me,
00:25:54.220 maybe a week or so after that episode came out saying, basically, where do you get off
00:25:59.660 on saying that the prosperity gospel is in the majority of black churches?
00:26:07.440 That's what I kept hearing, that you said the majority of black churches preach the prosperity
00:26:13.420 gospel, which is not what I said.
00:26:15.600 But I just ignored it.
00:26:16.900 I didn't think anything of it.
00:26:18.000 But I did usually when that happens, when I keep getting the same almost verbatim message
00:26:24.360 over and over again from people who don't follow me, it means that someone fairly influential
00:26:30.260 posted something about something I said and that that's going around and that's causing
00:26:36.040 people to message me to find my page and message me about it.
00:26:39.900 So I knew that was a possibility, but I didn't look into it.
00:26:44.960 And then I kept getting messages about it.
00:26:48.600 And then Melissa Doherty sent me a message saying, you know, that our little segment has
00:26:54.800 really caused a scuffle, like people are upset about this.
00:26:58.980 And I didn't know where it started.
00:27:01.720 But as soon as I heard that, I was like, I bet I know exactly who said something about
00:27:07.760 it.
00:27:08.000 So I went to this person's page and I was immediately verified.
00:27:12.960 Uh, this was on X, I actually originally saw it on Facebook, but this is Pastor Eric Mason.
00:27:20.300 Now, some of you might know him from his really good work on fatherhood, and he's got some
00:27:26.460 other really good, like theological resources that he's written over the years.
00:27:31.140 But he's also the author of Woke Church, and we'll get into that a little bit in a second.
00:27:36.860 He's a pastor of Epiphany Fellowship Church in Philadelphia.
00:27:39.360 And here's his post.
00:27:41.860 I just watched a clip with two white women saying that the majority of black churches
00:27:46.920 are prosperity churches and theologically unsound.
00:27:49.940 Didn't say that.
00:27:51.160 A black YouTuber, he's talking about someone named Corey Miner, and I'll get to his video
00:27:56.080 in a second.
00:27:57.100 A black YouTuber that mainly posts critique videos agrees.
00:28:00.020 What are your thoughts?
00:28:00.860 Also give a list of biblically solid black churches and pastors below.
00:28:04.660 Video response coming soon.
00:28:06.400 If you do an etymology of the prosperity movement, which Preach Damon, that's Handel, did in our
00:28:13.160 book on urban apologetics, you'd see that it began and was spread by whites for the last
00:28:16.960 100 years.
00:28:17.780 This type of stuff makes me angry.
00:28:19.740 Y'all pray for me because I get in the flesh and want to say unwholesome things.
00:28:24.780 Yikes.
00:28:25.620 What does that mean?
00:28:26.780 What unwholesome things?
00:28:27.940 I'm also kind of just like, this is an aside.
00:28:29.940 I'm stuck on do an etymology.
00:28:32.740 Do an etymology.
00:28:34.120 That's like saying like, do a philosophy.
00:28:37.080 Etymology means like the study of a word, and you can study the etymology of a word.
00:28:43.080 Like you could study the philosophy behind an idea, but I don't know what do an etymology
00:28:47.720 means.
00:28:48.260 That's just an aside.
00:28:50.120 So Eric Mason, he made this video with a couple of guys responding to what we said.
00:28:55.500 His video was titled Emergency Episode, Our Majority Black Churches Preaching the Prosperity
00:29:01.040 Gospel.
00:29:01.560 He said, let me preface this by saying a few things.
00:29:05.040 First of all, this is not a witch hunt.
00:29:06.520 Second of all, this is not being divisive.
00:29:09.800 He also says, I talked to Melissa.
00:29:11.800 We had a pretty lengthy 45-minute discussion.
00:29:14.320 She was pretty broken about the comment and repented for it and wanted to make things right
00:29:19.180 with me.
00:29:20.540 And then they go on to say, no, that this claim or this question that I had was completely
00:29:26.440 untrue, that my observation and concern was completely unfounded.
00:29:32.660 It's not true.
00:29:34.640 Whatever.
00:29:35.120 I don't think it's a witch hunt.
00:29:37.680 Like, first of all, say Eric Mason can make whatever content he wants.
00:29:40.900 He can respond to things I put out there.
00:29:42.800 There are some people out there who would say anyone who disagrees with something they
00:29:47.000 say publicly is being attacked.
00:29:48.740 I'm not that person.
00:29:49.900 I don't feel attacked by people publicly disagreeing with things that I publicly say.
00:29:53.520 People have a right to do that, and I can actually appreciate it when it's done in a respectful
00:29:57.440 way.
00:29:58.040 When he says this is not divisive, well, by pointing out the color of our skin, that is
00:30:05.000 divisive.
00:30:05.860 I mean, saying that the melanin count of the people who said it is what makes it part of
00:30:11.280 what makes it controversial.
00:30:13.400 Yeah.
00:30:13.900 I mean, that is you're purposely trying to draw lines there, whereas I, despite what some
00:30:18.820 of my critics are saying, have talked about the prosperity gospel in all different
00:30:22.880 kinds of churches, led by all different kinds of teachers, a response that I keep hearing
00:30:27.560 and that he said himself is that, what about this white teacher?
00:30:30.520 What about that white teacher?
00:30:31.900 Yeah, 99.9% of the time that I am talking about the prosperity gospel, I am talking about
00:30:37.760 pastors who happen to be white.
00:30:39.900 Like, just take two seconds to look at my repertoire of content that I've put out.
00:30:46.980 Most of the people, I mean, including Andy Stanley, including pastors that I really like, I'm not
00:30:51.480 afraid to talk about the controversies that they have gotten themselves into.
00:30:56.680 Like, I really like Alistair Begg.
00:30:58.440 I really liked Stephen Lawson and John Piper.
00:31:03.400 I mean, all of these people, I've just kind of talked in a hopefully very respectful way
00:31:07.280 about my disagreements with them.
00:31:10.280 But yeah, 99.9% of the time, these people happen to be white.
00:31:15.260 And yet, because I asked one question, I am being told that I singled out the black church.
00:31:19.480 And this was like, people are saying this is a racist observation.
00:31:25.160 Now, just to give you a little bit of context about who Eric Mason is, he did write this
00:31:29.320 book called Woke Church.
00:31:30.860 This full screen picture right here is from that book.
00:31:35.360 I don't disagree with everything within the book.
00:31:38.840 I think we agree on the fundamentals of the faith, hopefully.
00:31:42.020 But I do just want to point out from this full screen that's in the book, like what he
00:31:46.700 considers in bad categories of theology or beliefs as a black person, he considers bad
00:31:54.400 this statement.
00:31:56.580 I view colorblindness as a virtue.
00:31:58.620 I don't think that systemic racism exists any longer.
00:32:01.440 I believe blacks are to blame for our current condition.
00:32:03.580 Those are all statements that he believes that if you believe those things as a black person,
00:32:07.840 that you are not fully awake, that you are blind in some way, that you are asleep in some
00:32:13.340 way, you're not fully woke to what the true gospel intersecting with black identity really
00:32:20.880 is.
00:32:21.620 And obviously, that's problematic.
00:32:23.280 There are Christians who are fully awake to the reality of the world and reality of the
00:32:28.400 gospel who view colorblindness as a virtue, who don't think systemic racism exists any longer.
00:32:33.100 And they might believe that black people actually have agency and responsibility for the things
00:32:38.800 that happen to them and their situation.
00:32:41.300 But that's the whole like white fragility movement that was so popular in 2020 that if
00:32:47.120 you disagree with this, it's because you're not fully awake.
00:32:49.560 It's because you're asleep, you're deceived, you're fragile, whatever.
00:32:52.200 And that's just not it's not good logic.
00:32:53.940 It's not good argumentation.
00:32:55.460 And it just happens to be a silly, flimsy argument to pertaining to the part where he said
00:33:02.760 that Melissa Doherty reached out to him and apologized and was broken over it.
00:33:08.520 I talked to Melissa about this privately, and I wasn't going to share her thoughts publicly
00:33:12.640 because it was a private conversation.
00:33:14.760 And but I will say that she was very annoyed by how Eric Mason was representing their conversation.
00:33:22.340 She was connected through a good friend.
00:33:24.080 She thought, OK, this might be a way to reconcile.
00:33:27.220 Maybe we can better understand each other.
00:33:28.800 She was simply trying to do the right thing and also honor their mutual friend by having
00:33:34.840 a conversation with a brother in Christ about their apparent disagreement, but how he represented
00:33:40.140 it, that she was repentant, that she was broken over it, that she apologized, she says is not
00:33:45.500 true.
00:33:46.340 And this is not just based on our private conversation, but what she said publicly, too.
00:33:50.780 She did say this on X, and I just appreciated it.
00:33:54.960 She said, hi, everyone.
00:33:55.740 It appears there has been a bit of a scuttle on how the conversation with Eric Mason and
00:33:59.740 I went down.
00:34:00.800 Yes, we did have a conversation.
00:34:02.100 I'm thankful that we had that time to talk because I felt that addressing things privately
00:34:05.680 was both a respectful and biblical approach.
00:34:07.720 But it seems we definitely have a different interpretation of how this conversation went.
00:34:11.200 I won't be responding to any comments here.
00:34:13.060 I stand by the comments I said on Conserve Malin.
00:34:16.080 A person's skin color doesn't determine whether they can know truth or call out terrible and
00:34:20.260 heretical theology.
00:34:22.700 And so that's what she said there.
00:34:24.580 She says that she stands by her comments.
00:34:26.520 So that means, no, she wasn't broken over it.
00:34:28.440 She didn't change, you know, her mind on that.
00:34:31.980 I don't know.
00:34:32.440 I won't speak for her.
00:34:33.420 Maybe she would change how she said it or how it went down.
00:34:35.720 I'm not sure.
00:34:36.640 But what he is doing is he is trying to say that she was contrite and therefore he is
00:34:42.880 right.
00:34:43.160 He is using that to try to verify, validate, substantiate his perspective.
00:34:50.440 I wonder if he's still feeling in the flesh and wanting to say the unwholesome things
00:34:55.900 after that.
00:34:56.360 I don't know.
00:34:57.280 I wasn't going to say anything about all of that when I saw his response video, when
00:35:02.360 I saw his post.
00:35:04.020 I, you know, I, again, I knew exactly who had started the controversy.
00:35:07.880 I was not surprised at all when I saw him say two white women.
00:35:11.260 I saw, I saw him.
00:35:12.800 I saw that kind of thing in 2020.
00:35:14.560 Okay.
00:35:14.880 And Eric Mason, by the way, he's not some far left progressive, like I would say, theologically
00:35:20.120 on really important things.
00:35:21.820 He is, he's biblical.
00:35:23.320 He's what I would call conservative theologically.
00:35:26.660 But he is hoisted up by a lot of conservative evangelicals, a lot of mainstream conservative
00:35:32.780 evangelicals, even after a lot of nonsense in 2020.
00:35:35.760 And then we've got Anthony Bradley.
00:35:37.500 Okay.
00:35:37.720 This is when I was like, okay, I'm going to respond to this because this just kind of
00:35:41.260 like kicked it off for me.
00:35:42.320 And like, okay, well, I'm just going to see, I'm just going to dig further into this.
00:35:46.660 So Anthony Bradley, he's an author, interdisciplinary and theology studies professor.
00:35:52.100 He's also a research fellow at the Acton Institute.
00:35:54.520 It's a nonprofit research organization.
00:35:57.300 So he posted a video on X and the text above it, above the video, it's of Melissa and I
00:36:04.240 talking on the show, the clip that I just played you.
00:36:06.420 It says two white ladies.
00:36:07.900 We have to say that.
00:36:08.960 Two white ladies ask, why is the prosperity gospel so popular in the black church?
00:36:15.240 Okay.
00:36:15.840 So his caption on this video, who is this?
00:36:19.160 First of all, he knows we've gone back and forth several times before.
00:36:22.760 He says, who is this?
00:36:24.580 The utter nonsense of this is unreal.
00:36:26.700 How on earth can you with a straight suburban face, suburban face.
00:36:31.080 So it's okay to use kind of those derogatory statements, those kinds of euphemisms for a
00:36:37.800 white person.
00:36:38.560 I guarantee you that a white person, if a white person said that a black person had an urban
00:36:43.280 face, oh my gosh.
00:36:45.040 With a straight suburban face, Anthony Bradley, the professing Christian says, allege that most
00:36:51.380 black churches are prosperity gospel churches.
00:36:53.680 In a world of Joel Osteen, Paula White, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, et cetera, please stop
00:36:57.360 lying on black churches.
00:36:58.920 I didn't say most black churches.
00:37:00.960 I never said most black churches ever, actually.
00:37:05.080 And I've talked about all of those people multiple times, much more than I've talked about
00:37:09.540 the black prosperity preachers like Creflo Dollar.
00:37:11.880 I don't think I've ever done an episode dedicated to him.
00:37:14.260 It should be so obvious that he's a false teacher.
00:37:16.980 But I've talked about the others many times.
00:37:19.980 Now, again, just to give you context for who Anthony Bradley is, what kind of critiques he
00:37:24.420 levels against people.
00:37:25.440 Just a couple of weeks ago, he went after our girl, Megan Basham.
00:37:28.920 Megan Basham tweeted about a director of the Presbyterian Church in America's Missions
00:37:34.760 program named Erwin Ince, who had issued guidance that advised illegal immigrants on how to avoid
00:37:41.740 ICE.
00:37:42.720 And then he had a racially segregated event for black worshipers only.
00:37:46.380 And she called this out and said, this is not a good direction, which she's absolutely
00:37:49.280 right.
00:37:49.660 Anthony Bradley responded to what she said, a totally valid critique of PCA, saying Megan
00:37:58.040 Basham is the personification of low IQ.
00:38:01.680 OK, whatever you think about Megan Basham, you know that's not true.
00:38:04.560 Like, she's not dumb.
00:38:05.880 Like, it doesn't matter if you disagree with her.
00:38:08.380 She's obviously smart.
00:38:09.500 OK, personification of low IQ.
00:38:12.040 This is so dumb.
00:38:12.940 This is the same ignorance that asks, why is there a black church?
00:38:16.860 Research shows that content.
00:38:18.500 Listen, listen to how below the belt this is.
00:38:21.460 Research shows that content like hers is a sure sign of significant father issues.
00:38:26.540 And then the next reply is a post, a picture of four books.
00:38:34.020 And he says, top right, dot, dot, dot.
00:38:36.020 Well, the title of the book in the top right of the picture is The Absent Father Effect on
00:38:40.180 Daughters.
00:38:41.160 Father Desire, Father Wounds.
00:38:44.240 Yikes.
00:38:45.460 OK, Megan Basham, I know this for a fact from what she said publicly.
00:38:50.540 And I also like we, you know, we have a we have a friendship.
00:38:55.580 We talk as well.
00:38:57.020 And she doesn't have father issues.
00:38:59.300 And by the way, I just want to say, if you do have father issues, like that doesn't make
00:39:03.060 you low IQ, which is basically what he said.
00:39:05.760 And Anthony Bradley has done so much work on the need for fathers.
00:39:09.080 And like, I won't get into his entire personal history, but a lot of this is just like it's
00:39:15.240 just projection.
00:39:15.860 OK, but he has done good work on the need of fathers.
00:39:19.540 And he's basically saying that low IQ is an indicator of not having a good relationship
00:39:25.220 with your dad.
00:39:25.740 So I just want to say out there, if you have suffered from fatherlessness, that does not
00:39:30.820 make you dumb.
00:39:31.640 That does not make you less than.
00:39:33.040 That is not the reason for any mistakes that you have made.
00:39:36.000 And I'm not saying Megan Basham has made mistakes, but that's what he's arguing here.
00:39:39.480 And I just want you to know that, that like God is your father.
00:39:42.740 He determines your worth and he has your destiny in his hands.
00:39:45.360 So don't listen to people like this who are just so hateful that they can't even see
00:39:49.440 that they are contradicting their own messages that they have tried to pervade.
00:39:54.860 And Russell Taylor says, he says, Dr. Bradley, you genuinely confuse me.
00:39:59.880 You're one of the most insightful and encouraging voices I follow.
00:40:02.460 Yet sometimes these insults and disrespect belittle yourself.
00:40:05.580 You're so capable of engaging with people whom you disagree in a winsome way.
00:40:08.860 The insults seem out of character.
00:40:10.780 I haven't really seen that winsomeness and disagreement from Anthony Bradley in a long time.
00:40:14.680 Anthony Bradley did not like this very kind rebuttal.
00:40:19.060 He said, you should unfollow then.
00:40:21.020 He said, when I was an inward for when I was called an inward for seven years by people like
00:40:27.120 Megan, no one came to my defense.
00:40:30.100 And then he goes on and on.
00:40:31.660 Really?
00:40:33.520 People like Megan because she's a conservative Christian.
00:40:37.860 So she didn't do it.
00:40:38.880 But people like her called you that and therefore you have to say that she has daddy issues because
00:40:43.900 she said something that you disagree with.
00:40:46.660 OK, so this is who this person is.
00:40:48.100 And by the way, I am talking about someone who is a professing Christian who has been
00:40:53.140 platformed by Christians, even conservative Christians for his work.
00:40:57.220 I mean, this is a guy who used to be like on Fox News talking about like the black community
00:41:03.360 and the need for fathers and all of that.
00:41:05.280 So I'm not sure totally what happened.
00:41:06.620 He also told Samuel Say, another guest I've had on this show, whose writings I really
00:41:11.880 appreciate and have shared many times.
00:41:14.480 Samuel Say is from Ghana, by the way.
00:41:17.820 Anthony Bradley said to Samuel Say, this is what you say when you're not a part of the
00:41:21.440 black community as a non-black person and know nothing, the history of our churches and
00:41:27.980 origins.
00:41:28.480 I guess that's a typo.
00:41:30.180 So he's non-black.
00:41:31.480 Samuel Say is non-black.
00:41:33.900 Who is from Ghana, who is literally actually African.
00:41:37.960 OK, so that's who this person is.
00:41:41.000 OK, I just want to read you some research, though, about the prosperity gospel in majority
00:41:48.240 black churches, because there actually is a lot of data out there.
00:41:52.580 And I didn't realize how much data there was.
00:41:56.920 But after I started digging into it, I realized that, wow, there's a lot on this.
00:42:02.320 And when I was digging into this, I found an article in the Gospel Coalition by Trevin
00:42:07.640 Wax, March 29th, 2012.
00:42:10.300 And it's titled The Black Church and the Black Community.
00:42:14.400 And Trevin Wax is actually interviewing someone.
00:42:17.640 OK.
00:42:17.760 And so Trevin asks this to the interviewee, how has the prosperity gospel's message of
00:42:23.960 individual empowerment affected many black churches?
00:42:27.280 Here's what the interviewee said.
00:42:29.520 Sadly, the prosperity gospel has taken the already individualistic, consumeristic American
00:42:34.600 understanding of what it means to follow Christ to a new destructive level.
00:42:38.420 This is why we included a chapter on this movement.
00:42:40.900 He's talking about a book that he wrote.
00:42:42.540 It's theologically poisonous tentacles have found their way into many black churches.
00:42:49.260 And it is now a major force in the black expression of Christianity in America, Latin America, and
00:42:55.960 Africa.
00:42:57.040 Now, who said that?
00:42:59.720 What quote was that?
00:43:01.820 That was Anthony Bradley.
00:43:03.540 Anthony Bradley said that.
00:43:06.340 Anthony Bradley said in 2012, the quote that I just read for you, which is in
00:43:12.080 exact alignment with what he apparently is disagreeing with in 2025, something that I said, something
00:43:20.020 that I asked.
00:43:21.380 And so I posted a transcript of that.
00:43:24.620 And I said, this you to Anthony Bradley.
00:43:27.240 And he tried this whole semantic parsing out game of, well, you said most.
00:43:32.080 I didn't say most.
00:43:33.140 And I said many.
00:43:34.840 And that's different.
00:43:36.000 And you don't have the data to back it up.
00:43:38.360 OK, well, what data did you have to back it up?
00:43:41.140 And how about I just set you as my source next time?
00:43:44.640 Maybe if I just say, instead of many or prevalent, I say a major force in black Christianity around
00:43:53.160 the world.
00:43:53.700 Maybe if I just quote you verbatim and use you as my source, since you say that you've
00:43:58.260 done all of the research on the church, then OK, then maybe I'll just do that next time.
00:44:05.320 Maybe I'll do that.
00:44:06.700 And if I did that, I guarantee if I did that without citing him, he would have still disagreed
00:44:13.220 with this because it's a white it's a white lady saying it.
00:44:17.340 That's what it comes down to.
00:44:18.740 I said almost the exact same thing as he said 12 years ago, 13 years ago.
00:44:24.220 But I'm white.
00:44:25.260 And he apparently believes that white people shouldn't say certain things.
00:44:30.580 And that's what this comes down to is that many believe, unfortunately, that you have
00:44:35.440 to be a certain skin color to ask certain questions or say certain things.
00:44:38.640 And I'm just telling you that that's not true, that white people do not need permission
00:44:42.820 to say things or ask things.
00:44:44.620 And Christians can be concerned with all different aspects and manifestations of false teaching,
00:44:49.960 no matter the demographics of the churches that they are talking about.
00:44:53.760 We don't need permission to that.
00:44:55.320 We don't need to be invited into that conversation.
00:44:58.580 We can just say it.
00:44:59.680 OK, this is not 2020.
00:45:01.780 We're not that finger wagging and manipulation doesn't work around here.
00:45:05.140 And I encourage all of you out there to take that same position.
00:45:08.180 So let's look at some of the research quickly.
00:45:11.680 According to a 2023 study of Life by Lifeway of Protestant churchgoers, roughly 71 percent of
00:45:17.720 black American churchgoers report their church teaches aspects of the prosperity gospel.
00:45:22.760 And if you need a definer of what prosperity gospel is, it's not just saying that, hey,
00:45:27.680 you should steward your money well or God may bless you financially because both of those
00:45:32.420 things are true or give generously.
00:45:34.480 That's obviously true.
00:45:35.940 The prosperity gospel teaches if you do this, if you pray this, if you declare this, if you
00:45:41.200 give this money to me, the pastor, the leader of the church, the ministry leader, then God
00:45:46.920 will bless you financially.
00:45:49.060 He'll give you that raise.
00:45:50.400 He'll give you that bag.
00:45:52.180 He'll make sure that you are materially blessed.
00:45:55.960 And in fact, if you are poor, if you haven't gotten that promotion, if you're not financially
00:46:01.180 successful, if you are sick and if you are depressed, it's because you don't have enough
00:46:05.680 faith.
00:46:06.240 You haven't given enough to the church.
00:46:08.260 You haven't given enough to me, my ministry.
00:46:11.860 People like this.
00:46:12.700 Kenneth Copeland is a big purveyor of this.
00:46:15.100 We see this a lot.
00:46:16.080 Benny Hinn, as we've talked about several times, but also, yes, you've got Creflo Dollar
00:46:21.140 and others like him who are preaching things like that.
00:46:25.360 And obviously, that's contradictory to Christianity.
00:46:28.360 In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart.
00:46:30.540 I have overcome the world.
00:46:31.860 We are called to self-denial.
00:46:33.900 Money is not inherently bad.
00:46:35.480 Being rich is not inherently bad.
00:46:37.360 But making an idol of money and thinking that God is a genie that owes you something because
00:46:41.860 of what you do, that's just a misunderstanding, a distortion of the gospel.
00:46:46.520 So 71% of Black Americans report themselves that something like that is being preached
00:46:52.300 in their churches.
00:46:53.540 According to a 2021 Pew Research study, roughly 60% of churchgoing Black Americans attend a
00:46:58.160 majority Black church.
00:46:59.340 An additional 25% attend a multicultural church.
00:47:02.560 According to a 2015 YouGov study that surveyed 1,000 American adults who described themselves
00:47:07.220 as born-again or as evangelical, 45% of Black Americans believe that prayer can make one
00:47:11.980 wealthier compared with 19% of all churchgoing Americans.
00:47:17.520 Okay.
00:47:18.340 On the question, is wealth a sign of God's favor?
00:47:20.840 9% of white, 34% of Blacks, and 24% of Hispanics said definitely or probably.
00:47:27.000 So of those surveyed, Black Christians are most likely to say that wealth is a sign of
00:47:33.520 God's favor.
00:47:34.720 From the Gospel Coalition article by Joe Carter, Black evangelicals even held more favorable
00:47:41.960 opinions of prosperity preachers who were not Black.
00:47:44.880 That's also a point that I made, a question that I asked of Melissa.
00:47:47.700 Like, so many of these white prosperity preachers have congregations that are largely Black, which
00:47:54.820 is interesting.
00:47:55.640 Um, they were, okay, according to this survey, Black Christians were more likely to have a
00:48:01.760 very or somewhat favorable view of Joel Osteen, 51% of Black Christians versus 22% of whites,
00:48:09.100 39% of Hispanics, Pat Robertson, 41% of Blacks have a positive view compared to only 17% for
00:48:16.000 whites, Benny Hinn, 23% positive view of Benny Hinn compared to 4% for whites, and Kenneth
00:48:23.360 Copeland, 34% of Black respondents had a positive view of him compared to only 8% for whites,
00:48:29.880 okay?
00:48:30.560 No other factor in the survey, gender, age, political party identification, or geographic
00:48:34.920 region was as predictive of someone supporting the prosperity gospel and prosperity preachers
00:48:40.040 as race and ethnicity.
00:48:41.500 Okay, we can link these studies in the description.
00:48:46.820 A 2006 Pew Forum survey titled Spirit and Power, a 10-country survey of Pentecostals explored
00:48:52.240 religious beliefs and practices across various groups, including a specific focus on Pentecostals
00:48:57.500 and Charismatics.
00:48:58.560 Among Black Protestants, 66% agreed that God will grant material prosperity to believers with
00:49:06.860 enough faith, 32% of white Protestants believed that, okay?
00:49:11.480 Like, that's a big gap.
00:49:12.800 It's still too high.
00:49:13.920 But you're talking two-thirds versus one-third?
00:49:16.340 Yeah, it is especially prevalent.
00:49:18.340 That idea is especially prevalent, it seems, among many Black Christians.
00:49:24.480 Ryan Birch, a researcher, director at Faith Counts, which published data on Christians, they released
00:49:32.120 this survey in 2012, to what extent do you read the Bible to learn about attaining health
00:49:40.680 or healing?
00:49:44.000 Let's see, only 6% of whites said, to a great extent, that's like why they read the Bible,
00:49:52.100 versus 19% of non-whites.
00:49:56.660 So that's not just Black, that's all non-whites.
00:49:59.420 Or to learn about attaining wealth or prosperity.
00:50:03.720 Basically, 0%, it looks like, of white people read the Bible to learn about attaining wealth
00:50:10.200 or prosperity.
00:50:11.140 But about 12%, to a great extent, of non-whites are reading the Bible to learn about attaining
00:50:19.360 wealth or prosperity.
00:50:20.600 So it does seem like ethnicity is a very important predictor in whether or not the likelihood of
00:50:27.380 whether or not someone will be reading for and praying for prosperity gospel themes.
00:50:34.440 He also posted, Ryan Birch, he posted this on X, what factors predict a greater belief in
00:50:39.840 prosperity gospel views?
00:50:41.420 African Americans, he said, are on average score, they score two points higher on an eight-point
00:50:46.300 scale than the rest of the sample.
00:50:47.800 That's holding factors like income, education, age, gender, partisanship, and church attendance
00:50:53.960 constant.
00:50:56.080 So you can see the graph that we put up right there for that.
00:50:59.560 Again, that's from 2012.
00:51:02.320 There's an article by a pastor in the Wall Street Journal.
00:51:06.260 This pastor happens to be Black, Pastor Soares.
00:51:08.660 This is from October 1st, 2010.
00:51:10.640 It's titled, Black Churches and the Prosperity Gospel.
00:51:13.940 He says, Bishop T.D.
00:51:16.040 Jakes of the Potter's House in Dallas and Dr. Ivy Hilliard of the New Light Christian
00:51:20.180 Center in Houston have motivated many people to avoid the traps of thinking of themselves
00:51:23.760 as permanent victims and to defy conventional stereotypes.
00:51:27.360 The Prosperity Gospel says that everyone can succeed financially regardless of their race
00:51:32.120 or gender or class.
00:51:33.680 It's effectively changed life expectations for millions of people.
00:51:37.300 However, when leaders of this movement assert that God wants everyone to be wealthy and
00:51:41.920 that riches are the automatic outcome for all faithful believers, we should all be suspicious.
00:51:49.200 He says this is all a justification for crass consumerism.
00:51:52.220 He's talking about the problem of all of this, including Bishop Eddie Long in the Black Church.
00:51:59.920 The New York Times, there was an article titled, Too Many Black Churches Preach the Gospel
00:52:05.700 of Greed by Someone Who Also Happens to Be Black.
00:52:09.900 He said this in this article from 2015.
00:52:13.240 We see the prosperity gospel's influence spreading nationally and internationally as televangelists
00:52:17.500 and celebrity ministers with their megachurches preaches basic tenets.
00:52:21.120 In Black America, this theology overtakes calls for economic empowerment.
00:52:25.280 Freedom dreams are supplanted by the aspiration to wealth, a theology that suits a vision of
00:52:29.420 capitalism that is devastating our communities and our country.
00:52:34.760 OK, the Christian Post.
00:52:38.940 This is by Lily Kwan, but she's interviewing Dr. Robert M. Franklin, who also happens to
00:52:44.780 be Black.
00:52:46.000 This is from 2007.
00:52:47.760 The title of this article is, Prosperity Gospel is the Greatest Threat to Black Churches.
00:52:52.540 Franklin says, I am convinced that the single greatest threat to the historical legacy and
00:52:56.040 core values of the contemporary Black church tradition is posed by what is known as the prosperity
00:53:01.420 movement.
00:53:02.820 OK, so it's not just me.
00:53:06.200 People have been saying this for a long time.
00:53:08.500 Albert Moeller also had an article about this in 2010.
00:53:12.520 There are people that have been asking this question.
00:53:14.960 Do I think that this only exists in the Black church, if you want to call it that?
00:53:20.560 I was careful to say majority Black churches, because I think the Black church can also just
00:53:25.140 be a misnomer.
00:53:26.240 It's not homogenous, just like the church itself is not homogenous.
00:53:31.740 And like, yes, there is unity because of our shared belief in the gospel of Christ.
00:53:37.620 But different subsets in different cultures have the propensity to believe different kinds
00:53:43.340 of false teaching.
00:53:44.300 I have talked about all different kinds of things that I think women, and maybe in particular
00:53:51.700 white women, have the propensity to believe or to be caught up in.
00:53:57.660 I would say both of my books are kind of like for that demographic that is targeted by certain
00:54:03.340 modes of manipulation.
00:54:06.840 But that, of course, can include women of all different kinds of ethnic backgrounds, too.
00:54:12.880 So this is not a zeroing in.
00:54:15.020 This is not a singling out.
00:54:16.580 It was a question.
00:54:17.820 I'm not apologetic for it in the slightest.
00:54:20.680 The data backs up this observation, by the way.
00:54:24.320 And if you care about the souls of people, if you care about the lives of people, if you
00:54:31.380 care about the gospel, you should be saying yes and amen when anyone, especially
00:54:36.840 someone with a platform, no matter the color of their skin or their quote-unquote suburban
00:54:42.780 face to white ladies, according to Eric Mason, that make him want to say quote-unquote unwholesome
00:54:49.220 things in his flesh, you should be rejoicing that this is something that is being discussed.
00:54:56.320 Because if all of this gets even just one person to say, huh, I think my church preaches
00:55:02.140 that.
00:55:02.860 That's not the real gospel.
00:55:04.280 And I'm going to get out of that.
00:55:06.540 Then it will all be worth it.
00:55:09.060 OK, I just want to play you two clips.
00:55:11.580 They're a little long, but I want to give credit to these two creators who shared the
00:55:15.200 arrows.
00:55:15.780 And I don't think either of their videos were about me.
00:55:19.220 I don't think that they were like, oh, let me come in and try to save Ali Stuckey.
00:55:23.000 I don't think that they were trying to do that at all.
00:55:24.720 I think they were just giving their perspective.
00:55:26.560 They also happen to be black.
00:55:29.360 And so I don't subscribe to the idea that you have to be a certain skin color to say
00:55:33.900 certain things that are true.
00:55:35.360 But since some people do, maybe you can listen to them.
00:55:39.560 Corey Minor, that is the person that Eric Mason originally referenced in his Facebook
00:55:44.040 post.
00:55:45.340 He did a whole video about this.
00:55:47.560 It's 30 minutes long.
00:55:49.220 You can go watch that whole thing.
00:55:50.800 I'll play you a clip of it where he is giving his thoughts on this.
00:55:54.260 And he is giving he supplies a lot of receipts of this happening in predominantly black churches.
00:56:00.960 So I'll play you some of this clip.
00:56:02.500 It's not too.
00:56:03.520 And he's coming with the bag.
00:56:05.440 And he's coming with the millions.
00:56:07.780 And he's coming with the blessing.
00:56:10.160 So he's coming with the bag.
00:56:15.080 He'll be coming with the bag when he comes.
00:56:18.060 He'll be coming with the bag when he comes.
00:56:21.160 He'll be coming with the bag.
00:56:22.740 He'll be coming with the bag.
00:56:24.180 He'll be coming with the bag.
00:56:25.680 He'll be coming.
00:56:26.300 How is that not embarrassing?
00:56:28.000 How are you not?
00:56:29.080 You know what?
00:56:29.640 I'm ashamed to be.
00:56:30.980 I'm not saying you ought to be ashamed, but I don't want to be associated with these people.
00:56:34.040 I don't want anyone, white, black, Hispanic, or otherwise, to look at them and then look
00:56:39.720 at me and say, hey, you know those people?
00:56:42.660 Those are your people.
00:56:44.660 As a Christian, I'm embarrassed for them to even pretend to name the name of Christ.
00:56:50.720 I don't think these people are Christian.
00:56:52.080 They can't be.
00:56:53.000 Their God is their money.
00:56:55.360 Let the Holy Ghost train you to ask for the right thing.
00:56:59.160 Lord, I want a two-story house.
00:57:06.560 What is that?
00:57:08.700 My house is almost 25,000 square feet.
00:57:12.020 You can get lost in there.
00:57:13.220 I had to get some speakers in there so I can find my wife.
00:57:15.160 See, I live in it.
00:57:19.380 I drive it.
00:57:20.540 I drive it.
00:57:21.520 I live in it.
00:57:22.700 Yes, sir.
00:57:23.680 Yes, sir.
00:57:24.760 I drove a Maybach last night, phantom this morning, and I'm in a ghost tonight.
00:57:31.720 In case you don't know what a phantom of a ghost is, that's Rolls Royce's.
00:57:34.260 But it'd give him glory.
00:57:39.580 See, I want to tell you, I don't ever hide nothing from the body of Christ, and I'm not
00:57:43.940 scared of nobody.
00:57:45.380 God did it.
00:57:46.500 You better not mess with me.
00:57:48.080 I tell you so you know it can happen.
00:57:55.740 They brag about their wealth.
00:57:56.980 They're unapologetic about their wealth.
00:57:58.340 As a matter of fact, they'll come back and tell you that I was wrong for even worrying
00:58:02.360 about how you would think about this prosperity gospel.
00:58:05.960 No, I'm getting my money, and I even want my family to get their money, too.
00:58:09.500 I called my son.
00:58:10.220 I said, listen, go find that Rolls Royce.
00:58:12.320 He said, how?
00:58:13.140 I said, go find it.
00:58:13.860 I don't care what you got to do.
00:58:14.620 Go around the nation in every state you got to, but you find that Rolls Royce.
00:58:19.840 That was God's love that he was trying to show on me, and I let people bondage talk
00:58:24.740 me out, and that was the year I got free from people, free from colored folks, free from
00:58:28.740 church folks.
00:58:29.480 I got free from white folks.
00:58:30.960 I got free from everybody, praise God.
00:58:33.360 Hallelujah.
00:58:35.000 Hallelujah.
00:58:36.500 My God wants to bless you.
00:58:39.680 I'm sorry you don't want to receive it.
00:58:45.200 I apologize that you hate the prosperity gospel.
00:58:48.400 How do you say that?
00:58:49.300 How do you say that to a bunch of people who you know the majority of your congregation
00:58:52.500 is probably struggling financially, but you're talking about your son to go get his Rolls
00:58:57.680 Royce?
00:58:57.980 We know you got him.
00:58:59.740 Yeah.
00:59:00.280 And I know somehow after listening to all this, people are going to be like, well, what about,
00:59:03.800 what about, what about this white preacher?
00:59:05.820 Yeah, I know.
00:59:06.660 I talk about them all the time.
00:59:08.080 It's a problem.
00:59:08.560 It's a huge problem.
00:59:09.820 Prosperity gospel is a huge problem.
00:59:11.080 We're exporting it also to poor countries.
00:59:13.820 It's terrible.
00:59:15.220 But yeah, as we just looked at the data, unfortunately, this is more prevalent in majority black and
00:59:21.580 majority Hispanic churches, and it's very sad.
00:59:25.680 Okay, we'll end on this.
00:59:27.720 I'll say a little bit after, but my girl April Chapman had a great video on this as well,
00:59:32.380 and here's part of her take, Sot 3.
00:59:34.300 Instead of evaluating Ali Beth and Melissa's words against scripture, they immediately defaulted
00:59:44.740 to racial solidarity as if theological critique is only valid when it comes from someone who
00:59:50.120 looks like us.
00:59:51.060 That's not biblical unity.
00:59:53.320 That's tribalism.
00:59:53.880 That's tribalism that has no place in the body of Christ and is sinful.
01:00:00.400 And what's worse, if you look at this thread in an effort to defend the black church so hard,
01:00:06.540 just creating this biblically sound expression that don't really exist in the vibrato like
01:00:13.040 they was talking about it, in an effort to defend the black church from the white woman's
01:00:18.280 observations, some of the critics ended up defending the prosperity gospel and the false
01:00:22.400 doctrines that are actually leading people astray.
01:00:24.760 Like, do you see how backwards that is?
01:00:26.920 They didn't say she's wrong because here's what scripture teaches.
01:00:31.920 Instead, they said, she's white, so she has no right to say this.
01:00:37.280 Now, they didn't say this in so many words, but why else all the backlash and the hoopla
01:00:43.800 over a statement of fact?
01:00:47.380 Last time I checked, y'all, Jesus did not die for our skin color.
01:00:51.420 He died to redeem sinners from every tribe, tongue, people, nation, and people group.
01:00:56.220 And so if we truly believed in the unity of the body of Christ, then we should have welcomed
01:01:01.480 the biblical correction and the critique, no matter who it comes from.
01:01:06.520 But if the prosperity gospel is a distortion of the true gospel, and it is, then we should
01:01:12.620 be calling it out, not defending it or explaining it in a way or making it up that, oh, no, no,
01:01:18.920 no, our churches are sound when you know that they're not.
01:01:21.640 Just because you feel some sort of way about who said it, that's not how, that's not how
01:01:28.200 we do apologetics.
01:01:29.940 It's really not.
01:01:31.480 This whole controversy, it is a clear example of how this ethnic narcissism and the racial
01:01:38.520 identity politics has corrupted biblical discernment.
01:01:42.060 When a biblically sound pastor can cause division from a Facebook post just because two white
01:01:48.000 women made a statement of observable fact about the ethnic expression of the black church,
01:01:54.460 you are demonstrating your loyalty is to your race and your culture versus your identities
01:02:01.460 to be in and in Christ.
01:02:03.960 Hmm.
01:02:05.440 Some points to consider, some things to consider.
01:02:08.280 You know, all of this kind of reminds me of when I said that Matthew 25 is referencing
01:02:13.740 persecuted Christians and Russell Moore decided to imply that I'm a Nazi in the pages of Christianity
01:02:20.460 today.
01:02:21.860 And yet, where else did I find that argument being made by tons of scholars throughout
01:02:27.200 history, but in the pages of Christianity today, just a few years earlier, it's just that
01:02:34.240 they don't like who is saying it or who is asking it.
01:02:37.540 Um, so I just wanted to offer some, some clarity on all of that.
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01:03:31.780 All right.
01:03:32.260 We'll be back here tomorrow.
01:03:34.760 A great pleasure.
01:03:51.720 Bye.
01:03:52.140 Bye.
01:03:52.620 Bye.
01:03:52.780 Bye.
01:03:53.120 Bye.
01:03:54.020 Bye.
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01:04:02.940 Bye.