Ep 1167 ｜ Meryl Streep Can’t Be Aslan & the Truth About Prosperity Teaching in the 'Black Church'
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 4 minutes
Words per Minute
167.5607
Summary
In this episode, Allie talks about Meryl Streep possibly playing Aslan in the new Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe adaptation of The Chronicles of Narnia, and the controversy surrounding the prosperity gospel in majority-Black churches.
Transcript
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Meryl Streep is in talks to play Aslan in Greta Gerwig's new adaptation of the Chronicles of Narnia.
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I will also be responding to the controversy that was apparently created by my conversation on this show just a couple weeks ago
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when Melissa Doherty and I discussed the prosperity gospel in majority Black churches.
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Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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We've got a few things to talk about today, but I don't have producer Brie here.
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To talk about the first subject, which is Meryl Streep possibly playing Aslan in Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, a new adaptation of that.
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I really wanted to get her thoughts, but she is sick today.
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So please pray for producer Brie that she would make a quick and full recovery and be back here so we can talk about all the important stuff.
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But I'll give you my take on it, and then we can see what she thinks when she is back and ready to give her commentary.
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But before we get into the topics today, I just want to remind you guys, Share the Arrows.
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This is a Christian women's conference for Christian women who want solid and deep theology, who don't want to be coddled, who don't want to hear all about how beautiful and enough they are, who don't just want a gospel of self-fulfillment, but really want biblical truth.
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They want to be challenged, they want to be equipped in their calling, in their motherhood, in whatever space God has placed them in.
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If you want to be able to face a hostile culture with the courage that comes from knowing God's Word and through the power of the Holy Spirit, then Share the Arrows is for you.
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Share the Arrows if you don't know what that name is from.
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That was an ism, is an ism, that we have used on the show for a long time, and it is how I describe what I believe Christians are called to do when we see a fellow believer getting lambasted, getting attacked, getting canceled, if you want to call it that, for simply standing up for what is right.
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So whether that's a business owner or whether that's an influencer or whatever it is, if they are in a public space, whether it's in their own community or online, and they are standing up for something that is biblically true, and they are getting attacked, harassed for it, their business is getting threatened, threatened over it, rather than us watching that go down and saying, whew, glad that's not me.
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Glad that I'm not in that position. No, no, no, no, no. We stand up and we say, you know, that thing that they're getting attacked for, I believe it too.
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And we all stand up and we share the arrows that are being lodged at them.
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And we say, you can call me whatever you want, you can do whatever you want, but we're not going to allow them to stand alone.
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It's actually a very positive way to respond to bullying, because rather than just returning evil with evil, we are showing solidarity and courage with our fellow believers.
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By the way, that is a really good method of defending the least of these, my brothers, that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 25.
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He is talking specifically in that passage about persecuted Christians.
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And while persecution here doesn't look the same as it looks in Yemen or China, I don't pretend that it does.
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It still counts. When Jack Phillips, the baker at Masterpiece Cake Shop, has had his life completely, I won't say completely ruined, because God has used his story for good and has really protected him.
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But there has been a systematic attempt at ruining his life for more than a decade through malicious lawfare, because he would not bake a cake celebrating either gender transitions or the so-called marriage between two men.
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And so whether it's on a big scale or a small scale, we Christians stand up and say, yeah, we are with you.
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We're praying for you. We're going to encourage you.
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And we are going to repeat what you're saying, because we will not apologize for God.
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We're not trying to let him off the hook. We're not trying to outnice God.
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And so we will publicly defend what he says, no matter what the world calls it.
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So that is sharing the arrows and how we do that, how we get the courage to do that is by, of course, being empowered by his spirit.
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But knowing him and knowing his word and knowing apologetics and knowing where the church should stand on all these controversial culture war issues.
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And so that's what every year is going to be dedicated to it, share the arrows.
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But we have different speakers focusing on different things this year.
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We've got Elisa Childers, and she, like she did last year, we'll talk about apologetics.
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But from a new perspective this year, we also will have Ginger Duggar-Vuolo, who left a life of legalism to understand the true gospel.
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We'll have a health panel, how to biblically approach holistic health.
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We've got Shauna Holman, and we've got Taylor Dukes on that.
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And then Katie Faust, you guys know and love Katie Faust.
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You know that she's going to be talking about child-centered politics, IVF, reproductive technology, marriage, all of that.
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We are going to be led in worship by Francesca Battistelli.
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And then yours truly will be there as well, giving a speech.
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It's not going to be a last-minute preparation for me.
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It's going to be a new and unique and special message just for the attendees there.
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Make sure that you get your tickets now because this is a stadium with separate seats.
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Let's talk about Meryl Streep being potentially tapped to play Aslan in The Lion, the Witch,
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And I don't want to ask Nathan to change the camera too much because it might be hard to
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His works were absolutely formative in my faith.
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And I'm just so thankful, especially for Mere Christianity and for Screwtape Letters.
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Those were the two books I read junior year of high school that completely opened up a
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And I still am struck by the truths that I read in those books every time I read them.
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If you have not read Screwtape Letters and Mere Christianity, you have to read those.
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I just sent not only an ESV study Bible, but I sent Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters
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to a new Christian because I just think they are so important.
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They are not the end-all be-all when it comes to Christian theology.
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I wouldn't even call them necessarily a primer on Christian theology, but they are good,
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It lays like a really good basis for understanding that God exists and that Christianity is true.
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And of course, if you know C.S. Lewis, he was an atheist.
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And so he's coming from that skeptical, scholarly position in all of his writings.
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Every time I read C.S. Lewis, I'm like, I know that, you know, some things are obviously
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very complex and he's 10 times smarter than I am, but I get it.
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Just how he writes and how he speaks and how he explains things, it just tickles my brain.
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Something clicks and I just feel that I intuitively understand what he's talking about.
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And yet it's so layered that every time I read it, I find something new.
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So needless to say, the Chronicles of Narnia, especially The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe,
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Thankfully, my oldest child has inherited my love of reading.
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We have read through The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe multiple times.
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She's not quite to that reading level yet herself.
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She's only five, but she has sat and listened to me and it's timeless.
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I mean, the word pictures that he draws are just amazing.
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I still cry when I read the scene, spoilers, of Aslan, the lion being slain and being tied
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up, helpless, like a sheep being led to the slaughter.
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And then the beautiful, triumphant scene of Aslan coming back to life because the witch
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didn't understand what is called the deeper, deeper magic that was at play there, she forgot
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It's just a really beautiful depiction of who Jesus is as the Lion of Judah and his power.
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It's not an exact parallel by any means, but it is a really cool way to get your children
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and even get yourself just thinking about the gospel in a new way.
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So this series, and especially this book and all of C.S. Lewis's works, but they're really
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important to Christian history, the Christian tradition, especially just like our modern
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So that means in respect to Christianity, you need to get it right, especially if you are
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Greta Gerwig is an Oscar-winning actress, or no, sorry, she is a director.
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It's Meryl Streep who's the Oscar-winning actress.
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She doesn't believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one comes
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She did say to Time Magazine in 2024 that she loved the books.
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She loved the adventure and the stillness, the wonder and the truth.
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It's a world I've lived in through my imagination for so long.
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I think that you are disqualified, though, from directing a series like this.
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It's coming to Netflix, and she clearly doesn't share the worldview of C.S. Lewis.
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Now, is it possible to direct an adaptation, even if you are a non-Christian?
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But you have to respect the underlying, undeniably Christian truths that are there.
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And one of those undeniable Christian truths is that Jesus was a man, and that Aslan was
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a male lion to represent the Lion of Judah, to represent Christ.
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And if we are going to negate that, if we are going to ignore that by having Meryl Streep,
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who, of course, is amazing—I'm a fan of her acting abilities—if we are going to ignore
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that, then that shows a profound disrespect, not only of C.S. Lewis, of this story, but also
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the Christian truth that it is meant to reflect.
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There are multiple references throughout Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe of him shaking
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And you just don't have the same, like, regalness, if I can say that, in a female lion.
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Because, of course, we know that lions are the king of the jungle.
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They have this kind of confidence that is respected even by the top of the food chain,
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Again, there is a reason why Jesus is referred to as the Lion of Judah.
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And there is something so beautiful that the Lion of Judah voluntarily became a lamb, like
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Um, and so if we're getting rid of that, if we're getting rid of the specificity of this
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story that is representative of the gospel, then to me, this whole thing is discredited.
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I saw it reported by some, uh, X account, but it didn't have a link.
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If you don't know what rage bait is, those are just posts that are put out there because
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They know people are going to talk about it, but it's not even true.
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But then I saw more reputable sources picking it up.
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And I was like, okay, I guess it's okay for me to talk about it now.
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So she directed, Gerwig directed Barbie, Little Women, and then it was reported by the Hollywood
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Reporter also, uh, that she would be involved in the Chronicles of Narnia.
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I still didn't talk about it because I was like, maybe it's not true.
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But then Deadline reported on April 3rd, uh, that Meryl Streep is being considered for
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She has not yet been given an offer to play the role of Aslan, the great lion, but confirmed
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Aslan is, you know, as I already said, the pivotal character in these books.
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Lewis said that he crafted Aslan as an allegorical representation of Jesus Christ and a 1954 letter
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to a child, uh, about the storyline, the witch and the wardrobe.
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He said, Aslan is meant to represent what Christ might be like in another world.
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And if you don't already know, I know I kind of already referenced this, but Aslan sacrifices
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Now, Edmund is the child who betrayed him, but he is, Aslan is sacrificing himself on his
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Um, he's voiced by Liam Neeson in the 2005 to 2010 film trilogy, which I think is a great
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Um, again, uh, throughout the book, he is referenced as male.
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So it seems like it really wouldn't be that difficult to simply, um, stay true to that.
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You would only not stay true to that if you were trying to make a theological and political
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statement about the patriarchy within Christianity or patriarchy within, you know, white British
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literary works, and you're disrupting that and you are shattering glass ceilings by having
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Meryl Streep, who, you know, has always been so oppressed because she's a woman voice this
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It's not because there are no men who are up to the task.
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And I think blatant disrespect to Christianity.
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I didn't know that people were releasing films and you could go see it in IMAX.
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I have not been to a movie theater in a very long time.
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Um, Thanksgiving, 2026, followed by a Netflix debut on Christmas, 2026.
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I'm actually, now that I'm saying that, I'm actually kind of surprised that we're in the
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year 2025 and you're still making these decisions.
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So I guess I just don't totally understand how long it takes to do these things, but let's
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You don't have to believe in the underlying truth of the allegory, but don't rob the rest
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Let's pray for her and all of the people working on this, that as they are digging into this
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story and what it really means and the allegory used, that they would understand the gospel,
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that they would be struck by the amazing reality that there was a perfect savior who died on the
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cross, who sacrificed himself on behalf of those who betrayed him, that maybe through
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this, like her heart would be softened, that she would come to know the Lord, that she would
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be a Christian and that we could actually see the beautiful redemption that is depicted through
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And we should also pray that through this adaptation, that people would dig more into C.S. Lewis, that
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they would dig more into the Bible and understand the gospel, that they would be drawn to the
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person of, or the character of Aslan as a representation of Jesus.
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So let's just pray that they get it right, because this really, really matters.
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And I'll just leave you with this quote from The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
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If you have not read this yet, if your kids have not read this, go right now, go get it.
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I get a lump in my throat when I'm reading this with my children, because I'm just reminded,
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He loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us.
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Jesus loves us so much that he sacrificed himself on our behalf, taking on our punishment
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that we deserved just so we could be friends with God and be saved and live forever.
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And I didn't do anything to earn that, just like Edmund did everything not to earn that sacrifice.
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At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more.
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When he bares his teeth, winter meets its death.
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And when he shakes his mane, we will have spring again.
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That doesn't really work for a female lion, by the way.
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So again, the core of this, part of this, a huge part of this, is who Aslan actually is
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So let's just hope and pray that they change course.
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I haven't done this in a long time, talking about a reaction or controversy that my show
00:20:44.460
I mean, every episode that we put out there, of course, there are going to be people angry
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Some people might be like, oh, you know, people just generate conflict for clicks.
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I did not think that what I'm about to talk about would cause conflict.
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That is actually never, ever, ever my goal, not my desire.
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I know people like to kind of dismiss people they disagree with by saying, oh, they're just
00:21:17.600
saying that thing I disagree with because they want more attention or they want more money
00:21:24.060
Like, maybe they just said something that you disagree with that you really believe
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And that is certainly the case when it comes to this next subject.
00:21:37.320
But apparently my little question just kicked a hornet's nest.
00:21:42.140
And now we have to get into it because now claims are being made about me and the questions
00:21:55.700
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00:23:04.160
So a few weeks ago, I had Melissa Doherty on the show to talk about her new book.
00:23:21.000
Happy Lies, How a Movement You Probably Never Heard of Shaped Our Self-Obsessed World.
00:23:25.720
So we talked about the new age and new thought.
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We talked about the usual suspects, purveyors of the prosperity gospel that I have talked
00:23:41.620
Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, so many.
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You guys, if you've been following me for any amount of time, you know, I talk a good
00:23:53.520
I wrote about it extensively in my first book and also how it intersects with the new age.
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That is part of what my first book is about too.
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And I talked about how people like even Glennon Doyle and Rachel Hollis, these cult of self
00:24:10.100
affirmation leaders who tell us to worship the God of self, how those are really intertwined.
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But we had one segment, one short segment of the discussion where I dared to ask a question
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about majority black churches, not the majority of black churches, but majority black churches.
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This seems to be especially prevalent in majority black churches.
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There's a lot of prosperity preaching, but a lot of, as you're talking, I'm like, I've heard
00:24:46.700
You are, you know, a goddess, something special.
00:24:52.440
I don't know if you've ever talked about the roots of that or why that is.
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That is a controversial question, especially today's political climate.
00:25:00.400
But I guarantee there's a lot of people watching that are like, Allie's not wrong.
00:25:10.160
And there's a whole section on this that she talks about with the black church and the
00:25:16.220
prosperity gospel and all these other theologies that kind of entered into the black church.
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Carlton Pearson was a Pentecostal word of faith preacher.
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Reverend Ike and both of them were very off when it came to a lot of their their teachings.
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I haven't looked too much into it, but you're not wrong.
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OK, so I had no idea that that was going to cause any controversy.
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I started getting some random messages on Instagram, though, from people who didn't follow me,
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maybe a week or so after that episode came out saying, basically, where do you get off
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on saying that the prosperity gospel is in the majority of black churches?
00:26:07.440
That's what I kept hearing, that you said the majority of black churches preach the prosperity
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But I did usually when that happens, when I keep getting the same almost verbatim message
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over and over again from people who don't follow me, it means that someone fairly influential
00:26:30.260
posted something about something I said and that that's going around and that's causing
00:26:36.040
people to message me to find my page and message me about it.
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So I knew that was a possibility, but I didn't look into it.
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And then Melissa Doherty sent me a message saying, you know, that our little segment has
00:26:54.800
really caused a scuffle, like people are upset about this.
00:27:01.720
But as soon as I heard that, I was like, I bet I know exactly who said something about
00:27:08.000
So I went to this person's page and I was immediately verified.
00:27:12.960
Uh, this was on X, I actually originally saw it on Facebook, but this is Pastor Eric Mason.
00:27:20.300
Now, some of you might know him from his really good work on fatherhood, and he's got some
00:27:26.460
other really good, like theological resources that he's written over the years.
00:27:31.140
But he's also the author of Woke Church, and we'll get into that a little bit in a second.
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He's a pastor of Epiphany Fellowship Church in Philadelphia.
00:27:41.860
I just watched a clip with two white women saying that the majority of black churches
00:27:46.920
are prosperity churches and theologically unsound.
00:27:51.160
A black YouTuber, he's talking about someone named Corey Miner, and I'll get to his video
00:27:57.100
A black YouTuber that mainly posts critique videos agrees.
00:28:00.860
Also give a list of biblically solid black churches and pastors below.
00:28:06.400
If you do an etymology of the prosperity movement, which Preach Damon, that's Handel, did in our
00:28:13.160
book on urban apologetics, you'd see that it began and was spread by whites for the last
00:28:19.740
Y'all pray for me because I get in the flesh and want to say unwholesome things.
00:28:37.080
Etymology means like the study of a word, and you can study the etymology of a word.
00:28:43.080
Like you could study the philosophy behind an idea, but I don't know what do an etymology
00:28:50.120
So Eric Mason, he made this video with a couple of guys responding to what we said.
00:28:55.500
His video was titled Emergency Episode, Our Majority Black Churches Preaching the Prosperity
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He said, let me preface this by saying a few things.
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She was pretty broken about the comment and repented for it and wanted to make things right
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And then they go on to say, no, that this claim or this question that I had was completely
00:29:26.440
untrue, that my observation and concern was completely unfounded.
00:29:37.680
Like, first of all, say Eric Mason can make whatever content he wants.
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There are some people out there who would say anyone who disagrees with something they
00:29:49.900
I don't feel attacked by people publicly disagreeing with things that I publicly say.
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People have a right to do that, and I can actually appreciate it when it's done in a respectful
00:29:58.040
When he says this is not divisive, well, by pointing out the color of our skin, that is
00:30:05.860
I mean, saying that the melanin count of the people who said it is what makes it part of
00:30:13.900
I mean, that is you're purposely trying to draw lines there, whereas I, despite what some
00:30:18.820
of my critics are saying, have talked about the prosperity gospel in all different
00:30:22.880
kinds of churches, led by all different kinds of teachers, a response that I keep hearing
00:30:27.560
and that he said himself is that, what about this white teacher?
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Yeah, 99.9% of the time that I am talking about the prosperity gospel, I am talking about
00:30:39.900
Like, just take two seconds to look at my repertoire of content that I've put out.
00:30:46.980
Most of the people, I mean, including Andy Stanley, including pastors that I really like, I'm not
00:30:51.480
afraid to talk about the controversies that they have gotten themselves into.
00:31:03.400
I mean, all of these people, I've just kind of talked in a hopefully very respectful way
00:31:10.280
But yeah, 99.9% of the time, these people happen to be white.
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And yet, because I asked one question, I am being told that I singled out the black church.
00:31:19.480
And this was like, people are saying this is a racist observation.
00:31:25.160
Now, just to give you a little bit of context about who Eric Mason is, he did write this
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This full screen picture right here is from that book.
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I don't disagree with everything within the book.
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I think we agree on the fundamentals of the faith, hopefully.
00:31:42.020
But I do just want to point out from this full screen that's in the book, like what he
00:31:46.700
considers in bad categories of theology or beliefs as a black person, he considers bad
00:31:58.620
I don't think that systemic racism exists any longer.
00:32:01.440
I believe blacks are to blame for our current condition.
00:32:03.580
Those are all statements that he believes that if you believe those things as a black person,
00:32:07.840
that you are not fully awake, that you are blind in some way, that you are asleep in some
00:32:13.340
way, you're not fully woke to what the true gospel intersecting with black identity really
00:32:23.280
There are Christians who are fully awake to the reality of the world and reality of the
00:32:28.400
gospel who view colorblindness as a virtue, who don't think systemic racism exists any longer.
00:32:33.100
And they might believe that black people actually have agency and responsibility for the things
00:32:41.300
But that's the whole like white fragility movement that was so popular in 2020 that if
00:32:47.120
you disagree with this, it's because you're not fully awake.
00:32:49.560
It's because you're asleep, you're deceived, you're fragile, whatever.
00:32:55.460
And it just happens to be a silly, flimsy argument to pertaining to the part where he said
00:33:02.760
that Melissa Doherty reached out to him and apologized and was broken over it.
00:33:08.520
I talked to Melissa about this privately, and I wasn't going to share her thoughts publicly
00:33:14.760
And but I will say that she was very annoyed by how Eric Mason was representing their conversation.
00:33:24.080
She thought, OK, this might be a way to reconcile.
00:33:28.800
She was simply trying to do the right thing and also honor their mutual friend by having
00:33:34.840
a conversation with a brother in Christ about their apparent disagreement, but how he represented
00:33:40.140
it, that she was repentant, that she was broken over it, that she apologized, she says is not
00:33:46.340
And this is not just based on our private conversation, but what she said publicly, too.
00:33:50.780
She did say this on X, and I just appreciated it.
00:33:55.740
It appears there has been a bit of a scuttle on how the conversation with Eric Mason and
00:34:02.100
I'm thankful that we had that time to talk because I felt that addressing things privately
00:34:07.720
But it seems we definitely have a different interpretation of how this conversation went.
00:34:13.060
I stand by the comments I said on Conserve Malin.
00:34:16.080
A person's skin color doesn't determine whether they can know truth or call out terrible and
00:34:33.420
Maybe she would change how she said it or how it went down.
00:34:36.640
But what he is doing is he is trying to say that she was contrite and therefore he is
00:34:43.160
He is using that to try to verify, validate, substantiate his perspective.
00:34:50.440
I wonder if he's still feeling in the flesh and wanting to say the unwholesome things
00:34:57.280
I wasn't going to say anything about all of that when I saw his response video, when
00:35:04.020
I, you know, I, again, I knew exactly who had started the controversy.
00:35:07.880
I was not surprised at all when I saw him say two white women.
00:35:14.880
And Eric Mason, by the way, he's not some far left progressive, like I would say, theologically
00:35:23.320
He's what I would call conservative theologically.
00:35:26.660
But he is hoisted up by a lot of conservative evangelicals, a lot of mainstream conservative
00:35:32.780
evangelicals, even after a lot of nonsense in 2020.
00:35:37.720
This is when I was like, okay, I'm going to respond to this because this just kind of
00:35:42.320
And like, okay, well, I'm just going to see, I'm just going to dig further into this.
00:35:46.660
So Anthony Bradley, he's an author, interdisciplinary and theology studies professor.
00:35:52.100
He's also a research fellow at the Acton Institute.
00:35:57.300
So he posted a video on X and the text above it, above the video, it's of Melissa and I
00:36:04.240
talking on the show, the clip that I just played you.
00:36:08.960
Two white ladies ask, why is the prosperity gospel so popular in the black church?
00:36:19.160
First of all, he knows we've gone back and forth several times before.
00:36:26.700
How on earth can you with a straight suburban face, suburban face.
00:36:31.080
So it's okay to use kind of those derogatory statements, those kinds of euphemisms for a
00:36:38.560
I guarantee you that a white person, if a white person said that a black person had an urban
00:36:45.040
With a straight suburban face, Anthony Bradley, the professing Christian says, allege that most
00:36:53.680
In a world of Joel Osteen, Paula White, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, et cetera, please stop
00:37:00.960
I never said most black churches ever, actually.
00:37:05.080
And I've talked about all of those people multiple times, much more than I've talked about
00:37:09.540
the black prosperity preachers like Creflo Dollar.
00:37:11.880
I don't think I've ever done an episode dedicated to him.
00:37:14.260
It should be so obvious that he's a false teacher.
00:37:19.980
Now, again, just to give you context for who Anthony Bradley is, what kind of critiques he
00:37:25.440
Just a couple of weeks ago, he went after our girl, Megan Basham.
00:37:28.920
Megan Basham tweeted about a director of the Presbyterian Church in America's Missions
00:37:34.760
program named Erwin Ince, who had issued guidance that advised illegal immigrants on how to avoid
00:37:42.720
And then he had a racially segregated event for black worshipers only.
00:37:46.380
And she called this out and said, this is not a good direction, which she's absolutely
00:37:49.660
Anthony Bradley responded to what she said, a totally valid critique of PCA, saying Megan
00:38:01.680
OK, whatever you think about Megan Basham, you know that's not true.
00:38:05.880
Like, it doesn't matter if you disagree with her.
00:38:12.940
This is the same ignorance that asks, why is there a black church?
00:38:21.460
Research shows that content like hers is a sure sign of significant father issues.
00:38:26.540
And then the next reply is a post, a picture of four books.
00:38:36.020
Well, the title of the book in the top right of the picture is The Absent Father Effect on
00:38:45.460
OK, Megan Basham, I know this for a fact from what she said publicly.
00:38:50.540
And I also like we, you know, we have a we have a friendship.
00:38:59.300
And by the way, I just want to say, if you do have father issues, like that doesn't make
00:39:05.760
And Anthony Bradley has done so much work on the need for fathers.
00:39:09.080
And like, I won't get into his entire personal history, but a lot of this is just like it's
00:39:15.860
OK, but he has done good work on the need of fathers.
00:39:19.540
And he's basically saying that low IQ is an indicator of not having a good relationship
00:39:25.740
So I just want to say out there, if you have suffered from fatherlessness, that does not
00:39:33.040
That is not the reason for any mistakes that you have made.
00:39:36.000
And I'm not saying Megan Basham has made mistakes, but that's what he's arguing here.
00:39:39.480
And I just want you to know that, that like God is your father.
00:39:42.740
He determines your worth and he has your destiny in his hands.
00:39:45.360
So don't listen to people like this who are just so hateful that they can't even see
00:39:49.440
that they are contradicting their own messages that they have tried to pervade.
00:39:54.860
And Russell Taylor says, he says, Dr. Bradley, you genuinely confuse me.
00:39:59.880
You're one of the most insightful and encouraging voices I follow.
00:40:02.460
Yet sometimes these insults and disrespect belittle yourself.
00:40:05.580
You're so capable of engaging with people whom you disagree in a winsome way.
00:40:10.780
I haven't really seen that winsomeness and disagreement from Anthony Bradley in a long time.
00:40:14.680
Anthony Bradley did not like this very kind rebuttal.
00:40:21.020
He said, when I was an inward for when I was called an inward for seven years by people like
00:40:33.520
People like Megan because she's a conservative Christian.
00:40:38.880
But people like her called you that and therefore you have to say that she has daddy issues because
00:40:48.100
And by the way, I am talking about someone who is a professing Christian who has been
00:40:53.140
platformed by Christians, even conservative Christians for his work.
00:40:57.220
I mean, this is a guy who used to be like on Fox News talking about like the black community
00:41:06.620
He also told Samuel Say, another guest I've had on this show, whose writings I really
00:41:17.820
Anthony Bradley said to Samuel Say, this is what you say when you're not a part of the
00:41:21.440
black community as a non-black person and know nothing, the history of our churches and
00:41:33.900
Who is from Ghana, who is literally actually African.
00:41:41.000
OK, I just want to read you some research, though, about the prosperity gospel in majority
00:41:48.240
black churches, because there actually is a lot of data out there.
00:41:56.920
But after I started digging into it, I realized that, wow, there's a lot on this.
00:42:02.320
And when I was digging into this, I found an article in the Gospel Coalition by Trevin
00:42:10.300
And it's titled The Black Church and the Black Community.
00:42:14.400
And Trevin Wax is actually interviewing someone.
00:42:17.760
And so Trevin asks this to the interviewee, how has the prosperity gospel's message of
00:42:23.960
individual empowerment affected many black churches?
00:42:29.520
Sadly, the prosperity gospel has taken the already individualistic, consumeristic American
00:42:34.600
understanding of what it means to follow Christ to a new destructive level.
00:42:38.420
This is why we included a chapter on this movement.
00:42:42.540
It's theologically poisonous tentacles have found their way into many black churches.
00:42:49.260
And it is now a major force in the black expression of Christianity in America, Latin America, and
00:43:06.340
Anthony Bradley said in 2012, the quote that I just read for you, which is in
00:43:12.080
exact alignment with what he apparently is disagreeing with in 2025, something that I said, something
00:43:27.240
And he tried this whole semantic parsing out game of, well, you said most.
00:43:38.360
OK, well, what data did you have to back it up?
00:43:41.140
And how about I just set you as my source next time?
00:43:44.640
Maybe if I just say, instead of many or prevalent, I say a major force in black Christianity around
00:43:53.700
Maybe if I just quote you verbatim and use you as my source, since you say that you've
00:43:58.260
done all of the research on the church, then OK, then maybe I'll just do that next time.
00:44:06.700
And if I did that, I guarantee if I did that without citing him, he would have still disagreed
00:44:13.220
with this because it's a white it's a white lady saying it.
00:44:18.740
I said almost the exact same thing as he said 12 years ago, 13 years ago.
00:44:25.260
And he apparently believes that white people shouldn't say certain things.
00:44:30.580
And that's what this comes down to is that many believe, unfortunately, that you have
00:44:35.440
to be a certain skin color to ask certain questions or say certain things.
00:44:38.640
And I'm just telling you that that's not true, that white people do not need permission
00:44:44.620
And Christians can be concerned with all different aspects and manifestations of false teaching,
00:44:49.960
no matter the demographics of the churches that they are talking about.
00:44:55.320
We don't need to be invited into that conversation.
00:45:01.780
We're not that finger wagging and manipulation doesn't work around here.
00:45:05.140
And I encourage all of you out there to take that same position.
00:45:11.680
According to a 2023 study of Life by Lifeway of Protestant churchgoers, roughly 71 percent of
00:45:17.720
black American churchgoers report their church teaches aspects of the prosperity gospel.
00:45:22.760
And if you need a definer of what prosperity gospel is, it's not just saying that, hey,
00:45:27.680
you should steward your money well or God may bless you financially because both of those
00:45:35.940
The prosperity gospel teaches if you do this, if you pray this, if you declare this, if you
00:45:41.200
give this money to me, the pastor, the leader of the church, the ministry leader, then God
00:45:52.180
He'll make sure that you are materially blessed.
00:45:55.960
And in fact, if you are poor, if you haven't gotten that promotion, if you're not financially
00:46:01.180
successful, if you are sick and if you are depressed, it's because you don't have enough
00:46:16.080
Benny Hinn, as we've talked about several times, but also, yes, you've got Creflo Dollar
00:46:21.140
and others like him who are preaching things like that.
00:46:25.360
And obviously, that's contradictory to Christianity.
00:46:28.360
In this world, you will have trouble, but take heart.
00:46:37.360
But making an idol of money and thinking that God is a genie that owes you something because
00:46:41.860
of what you do, that's just a misunderstanding, a distortion of the gospel.
00:46:46.520
So 71% of Black Americans report themselves that something like that is being preached
00:46:53.540
According to a 2021 Pew Research study, roughly 60% of churchgoing Black Americans attend a
00:46:59.340
An additional 25% attend a multicultural church.
00:47:02.560
According to a 2015 YouGov study that surveyed 1,000 American adults who described themselves
00:47:07.220
as born-again or as evangelical, 45% of Black Americans believe that prayer can make one
00:47:11.980
wealthier compared with 19% of all churchgoing Americans.
00:47:18.340
On the question, is wealth a sign of God's favor?
00:47:20.840
9% of white, 34% of Blacks, and 24% of Hispanics said definitely or probably.
00:47:27.000
So of those surveyed, Black Christians are most likely to say that wealth is a sign of
00:47:34.720
From the Gospel Coalition article by Joe Carter, Black evangelicals even held more favorable
00:47:41.960
opinions of prosperity preachers who were not Black.
00:47:44.880
That's also a point that I made, a question that I asked of Melissa.
00:47:47.700
Like, so many of these white prosperity preachers have congregations that are largely Black, which
00:47:55.640
Um, they were, okay, according to this survey, Black Christians were more likely to have a
00:48:01.760
very or somewhat favorable view of Joel Osteen, 51% of Black Christians versus 22% of whites,
00:48:09.100
39% of Hispanics, Pat Robertson, 41% of Blacks have a positive view compared to only 17% for
00:48:16.000
whites, Benny Hinn, 23% positive view of Benny Hinn compared to 4% for whites, and Kenneth
00:48:23.360
Copeland, 34% of Black respondents had a positive view of him compared to only 8% for whites,
00:48:30.560
No other factor in the survey, gender, age, political party identification, or geographic
00:48:34.920
region was as predictive of someone supporting the prosperity gospel and prosperity preachers
00:48:41.500
Okay, we can link these studies in the description.
00:48:46.820
A 2006 Pew Forum survey titled Spirit and Power, a 10-country survey of Pentecostals explored
00:48:52.240
religious beliefs and practices across various groups, including a specific focus on Pentecostals
00:48:58.560
Among Black Protestants, 66% agreed that God will grant material prosperity to believers with
00:49:06.860
enough faith, 32% of white Protestants believed that, okay?
00:49:13.920
But you're talking two-thirds versus one-third?
00:49:18.340
That idea is especially prevalent, it seems, among many Black Christians.
00:49:24.480
Ryan Birch, a researcher, director at Faith Counts, which published data on Christians, they released
00:49:32.120
this survey in 2012, to what extent do you read the Bible to learn about attaining health
00:49:44.000
Let's see, only 6% of whites said, to a great extent, that's like why they read the Bible,
00:49:56.660
So that's not just Black, that's all non-whites.
00:49:59.420
Or to learn about attaining wealth or prosperity.
00:50:03.720
Basically, 0%, it looks like, of white people read the Bible to learn about attaining wealth
00:50:11.140
But about 12%, to a great extent, of non-whites are reading the Bible to learn about attaining
00:50:20.600
So it does seem like ethnicity is a very important predictor in whether or not the likelihood of
00:50:27.380
whether or not someone will be reading for and praying for prosperity gospel themes.
00:50:34.440
He also posted, Ryan Birch, he posted this on X, what factors predict a greater belief in
00:50:41.420
African Americans, he said, are on average score, they score two points higher on an eight-point
00:50:47.800
That's holding factors like income, education, age, gender, partisanship, and church attendance
00:50:56.080
So you can see the graph that we put up right there for that.
00:51:02.320
There's an article by a pastor in the Wall Street Journal.
00:51:06.260
This pastor happens to be Black, Pastor Soares.
00:51:10.640
It's titled, Black Churches and the Prosperity Gospel.
00:51:16.040
Jakes of the Potter's House in Dallas and Dr. Ivy Hilliard of the New Light Christian
00:51:20.180
Center in Houston have motivated many people to avoid the traps of thinking of themselves
00:51:23.760
as permanent victims and to defy conventional stereotypes.
00:51:27.360
The Prosperity Gospel says that everyone can succeed financially regardless of their race
00:51:33.680
It's effectively changed life expectations for millions of people.
00:51:37.300
However, when leaders of this movement assert that God wants everyone to be wealthy and
00:51:41.920
that riches are the automatic outcome for all faithful believers, we should all be suspicious.
00:51:49.200
He says this is all a justification for crass consumerism.
00:51:52.220
He's talking about the problem of all of this, including Bishop Eddie Long in the Black Church.
00:51:59.920
The New York Times, there was an article titled, Too Many Black Churches Preach the Gospel
00:52:05.700
of Greed by Someone Who Also Happens to Be Black.
00:52:13.240
We see the prosperity gospel's influence spreading nationally and internationally as televangelists
00:52:17.500
and celebrity ministers with their megachurches preaches basic tenets.
00:52:21.120
In Black America, this theology overtakes calls for economic empowerment.
00:52:25.280
Freedom dreams are supplanted by the aspiration to wealth, a theology that suits a vision of
00:52:29.420
capitalism that is devastating our communities and our country.
00:52:38.940
This is by Lily Kwan, but she's interviewing Dr. Robert M. Franklin, who also happens to
00:52:47.760
The title of this article is, Prosperity Gospel is the Greatest Threat to Black Churches.
00:52:52.540
Franklin says, I am convinced that the single greatest threat to the historical legacy and
00:52:56.040
core values of the contemporary Black church tradition is posed by what is known as the prosperity
00:53:08.500
Albert Moeller also had an article about this in 2010.
00:53:12.520
There are people that have been asking this question.
00:53:14.960
Do I think that this only exists in the Black church, if you want to call it that?
00:53:20.560
I was careful to say majority Black churches, because I think the Black church can also just
00:53:26.240
It's not homogenous, just like the church itself is not homogenous.
00:53:31.740
And like, yes, there is unity because of our shared belief in the gospel of Christ.
00:53:37.620
But different subsets in different cultures have the propensity to believe different kinds
00:53:44.300
I have talked about all different kinds of things that I think women, and maybe in particular
00:53:51.700
white women, have the propensity to believe or to be caught up in.
00:53:57.660
I would say both of my books are kind of like for that demographic that is targeted by certain
00:54:06.840
But that, of course, can include women of all different kinds of ethnic backgrounds, too.
00:54:20.680
The data backs up this observation, by the way.
00:54:24.320
And if you care about the souls of people, if you care about the lives of people, if you
00:54:31.380
care about the gospel, you should be saying yes and amen when anyone, especially
00:54:36.840
someone with a platform, no matter the color of their skin or their quote-unquote suburban
00:54:42.780
face to white ladies, according to Eric Mason, that make him want to say quote-unquote unwholesome
00:54:49.220
things in his flesh, you should be rejoicing that this is something that is being discussed.
00:54:56.320
Because if all of this gets even just one person to say, huh, I think my church preaches
00:55:11.580
They're a little long, but I want to give credit to these two creators who shared the
00:55:15.780
And I don't think either of their videos were about me.
00:55:19.220
I don't think that they were like, oh, let me come in and try to save Ali Stuckey.
00:55:23.000
I don't think that they were trying to do that at all.
00:55:24.720
I think they were just giving their perspective.
00:55:29.360
And so I don't subscribe to the idea that you have to be a certain skin color to say
00:55:35.360
But since some people do, maybe you can listen to them.
00:55:39.560
Corey Minor, that is the person that Eric Mason originally referenced in his Facebook
00:55:50.800
I'll play you a clip of it where he is giving his thoughts on this.
00:55:54.260
And he is giving he supplies a lot of receipts of this happening in predominantly black churches.
00:56:30.980
I'm not saying you ought to be ashamed, but I don't want to be associated with these people.
00:56:34.040
I don't want anyone, white, black, Hispanic, or otherwise, to look at them and then look
00:56:44.660
As a Christian, I'm embarrassed for them to even pretend to name the name of Christ.
00:56:55.360
Let the Holy Ghost train you to ask for the right thing.
00:57:13.220
I had to get some speakers in there so I can find my wife.
00:57:24.760
I drove a Maybach last night, phantom this morning, and I'm in a ghost tonight.
00:57:31.720
In case you don't know what a phantom of a ghost is, that's Rolls Royce's.
00:57:39.580
See, I want to tell you, I don't ever hide nothing from the body of Christ, and I'm not
00:57:58.340
As a matter of fact, they'll come back and tell you that I was wrong for even worrying
00:58:02.360
about how you would think about this prosperity gospel.
00:58:05.960
No, I'm getting my money, and I even want my family to get their money, too.
00:58:14.620
Go around the nation in every state you got to, but you find that Rolls Royce.
00:58:19.840
That was God's love that he was trying to show on me, and I let people bondage talk
00:58:24.740
me out, and that was the year I got free from people, free from colored folks, free from
00:58:45.200
I apologize that you hate the prosperity gospel.
00:58:49.300
How do you say that to a bunch of people who you know the majority of your congregation
00:58:52.500
is probably struggling financially, but you're talking about your son to go get his Rolls
00:59:00.280
And I know somehow after listening to all this, people are going to be like, well, what about,
00:59:15.220
But yeah, as we just looked at the data, unfortunately, this is more prevalent in majority black and
00:59:27.720
I'll say a little bit after, but my girl April Chapman had a great video on this as well,
00:59:34.300
Instead of evaluating Ali Beth and Melissa's words against scripture, they immediately defaulted
00:59:44.740
to racial solidarity as if theological critique is only valid when it comes from someone who
00:59:53.880
That's tribalism that has no place in the body of Christ and is sinful.
01:00:00.400
And what's worse, if you look at this thread in an effort to defend the black church so hard,
01:00:06.540
just creating this biblically sound expression that don't really exist in the vibrato like
01:00:13.040
they was talking about it, in an effort to defend the black church from the white woman's
01:00:18.280
observations, some of the critics ended up defending the prosperity gospel and the false
01:00:22.400
doctrines that are actually leading people astray.
01:00:26.920
They didn't say she's wrong because here's what scripture teaches.
01:00:31.920
Instead, they said, she's white, so she has no right to say this.
01:00:37.280
Now, they didn't say this in so many words, but why else all the backlash and the hoopla
01:00:47.380
Last time I checked, y'all, Jesus did not die for our skin color.
01:00:51.420
He died to redeem sinners from every tribe, tongue, people, nation, and people group.
01:00:56.220
And so if we truly believed in the unity of the body of Christ, then we should have welcomed
01:01:01.480
the biblical correction and the critique, no matter who it comes from.
01:01:06.520
But if the prosperity gospel is a distortion of the true gospel, and it is, then we should
01:01:12.620
be calling it out, not defending it or explaining it in a way or making it up that, oh, no, no,
01:01:18.920
no, our churches are sound when you know that they're not.
01:01:21.640
Just because you feel some sort of way about who said it, that's not how, that's not how
01:01:31.480
This whole controversy, it is a clear example of how this ethnic narcissism and the racial
01:01:38.520
identity politics has corrupted biblical discernment.
01:01:42.060
When a biblically sound pastor can cause division from a Facebook post just because two white
01:01:48.000
women made a statement of observable fact about the ethnic expression of the black church,
01:01:54.460
you are demonstrating your loyalty is to your race and your culture versus your identities
01:02:05.440
Some points to consider, some things to consider.
01:02:08.280
You know, all of this kind of reminds me of when I said that Matthew 25 is referencing
01:02:13.740
persecuted Christians and Russell Moore decided to imply that I'm a Nazi in the pages of Christianity
01:02:21.860
And yet, where else did I find that argument being made by tons of scholars throughout
01:02:27.200
history, but in the pages of Christianity today, just a few years earlier, it's just that
01:02:34.240
they don't like who is saying it or who is asking it.
01:02:37.540
Um, so I just wanted to offer some, some clarity on all of that.
01:02:43.080
Uh, last thing before we head out for the day, please subscribe to blaze TV.
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We are dealing with all kinds of shenanigans when it comes to YouTube, when it comes to
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Apple, when it comes to these major platforms to make sure that we are treated fairly.
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We have to do a lot of things behind the scenes just to make sure that our content is published
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and seen and you never know what's going to happen.
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And if you want to make sure that you can always find us at blaze TV and find content
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that we are not sharing in front of the paywall content, just for our subscribers, then subscribe
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When you do, you can get a discount on your subscription.
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You get access to all of the exclusive content that's made by blaze TV, or blaze TV creators
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And for those of you who have already subscribed, thank you so much.