Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 14, 2025


Ep 1171 ｜ Egg Donation Centers Are Exploiting College Girls & Military Wives ｜ Guest： Kallie Fell


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour

Words per Minute

169.59297

Word Count

10,332

Sentence Count

739

Misogynist Sentences

74

Hate Speech Sentences

33


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.880 Who are the men that are renting wombs and buying babies from women in America?
00:00:07.360 What exactly is the dark underbelly of the IVF and reproductive technology industry in
00:00:14.380 the United States?
00:00:15.500 We've got Callie Fell here today.
00:00:17.540 She is the executive director for the Center of Bioethics and Culture Network, and she
00:00:23.780 is here to answer some of these questions for us today.
00:00:26.620 We are going to talk about this and so much more on today's episode of Relatable.
00:00:30.460 It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:32.760 Go to GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.
00:00:34.560 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.
00:00:46.080 Callie, thanks so much for taking the time to join me.
00:00:49.360 For those who don't know, can you tell us who you are and what you do?
00:00:52.100 Yeah.
00:00:52.900 So my name is Callie Fell.
00:00:54.120 I'm the executive director for the Center for Bioethics and Culture.
00:00:58.380 I'm also the program director for the Paul Ramsey Institute, which is our project within
00:01:05.700 the Center for Bioethics and Culture.
00:01:07.400 I'm also a perinatal nurse.
00:01:09.900 Okay.
00:01:10.500 So tell me about the CBC Network.
00:01:13.880 Those who remember my interviews with Jennifer Law, whom I've had on multiple times, may already
00:01:19.940 know, but there are a lot of people who are new, who have no idea what CBC does.
00:01:24.200 Can you tell us?
00:01:25.200 So the Center for Bioethics and Culture is an educational nonprofit that was started by
00:01:29.360 our founder, Jennifer Law, in 2000.
00:01:31.540 We've been around for 25 years now.
00:01:33.380 Wow.
00:01:33.600 And we work in the space of just educating people, educating general public, lawmakers
00:01:38.900 on bioethical issues that most profoundly affect humanity and the vulnerable among us.
00:01:46.180 Yeah.
00:01:46.420 We work in the area of making life and faking life, which we can get into later.
00:01:51.240 But predominantly how we educate is through filmmaking.
00:01:55.080 We have several documentary films now, through podcasts, through writing, through interviews,
00:02:03.180 all kinds of things.
00:02:04.020 So education in the space of bioethics.
00:02:06.100 Yes.
00:02:06.640 And can you give us a definition of what bioethics is?
00:02:10.980 Yeah.
00:02:11.620 It's funny.
00:02:12.100 I was sitting last night down for dinner and a gentleman next to me was like, oh, I've never
00:02:15.580 even heard of bioethics and I have a biology degree.
00:02:18.040 And I'm always kind of like dumbfounded by that.
00:02:21.260 But bioethics is really anything in medicine or biotechnological advancement or biomedicine
00:02:29.140 that affects life.
00:02:30.060 So one of the most common things when people think bioethics is abortion, for example.
00:02:37.700 But the things that we focus on at our work in the Center for Bioethics and Culture is
00:02:43.940 the space of third party reproduction.
00:02:46.060 Yeah.
00:02:46.300 And also recently entered the space.
00:02:48.720 Well, I say recently.
00:02:49.580 Now it's been, gosh, five years, but on the gender debate.
00:02:53.600 And so anything that's affecting how we treat people, bio life issues and the ethics surrounding
00:03:00.220 those issues.
00:03:01.320 Yeah.
00:03:01.700 So it's the world of science and medicine and what is actually ethical.
00:03:07.780 I always say that science or technology can tell us what is possible, but it can't tell
00:03:15.920 us what is moral.
00:03:18.500 And when technology takes us from what is natural to what is possible, we as people have the
00:03:24.660 responsibility to ask, but is this moral or is this ethical?
00:03:28.880 And by ethics, we just mean like, is this right or wrong?
00:03:32.660 Does this fall into a framework that matches the ethic that I think we all would have that
00:03:40.820 human life is precious, that it has dignity and therefore we have rights.
00:03:45.840 But there is a big debate about when life begins and when life actually becomes valuable
00:03:53.100 and what rights that valuable person actually deserves.
00:03:58.340 And as you said, that comes up in the abortion debate.
00:04:00.760 But as CBC knows, it's far more than abortion.
00:04:04.460 So y'all are looking at things like IVF and surrogacy too, right?
00:04:08.020 Correct.
00:04:08.680 And it's anything that's assisted reproduction.
00:04:11.680 So that also includes egg donation.
00:04:14.240 And I always put that in quotes because young women are exploited for their eggs and they're
00:04:19.080 not donating their eggs.
00:04:20.280 They're being bought and purchased.
00:04:22.020 And so those eggs are sold.
00:04:23.520 So yes, anything in that.
00:04:25.100 Yes, exactly.
00:04:25.940 Anything in that arena of third party conception.
00:04:29.860 Yeah.
00:04:30.600 And so tell us how you got into this.
00:04:33.940 You said that you're a nurse and I know that Jennifer Law was also a nurse, but tell me,
00:04:39.280 did you have the same kind of journey as her into the space?
00:04:42.540 No, actually, it's kind of a long journey, but I would call it a providential journey.
00:04:48.380 And my focus is always at the center been women's health and the health of the babies that she
00:04:56.280 might carry.
00:04:58.060 But I actually was one of those people that didn't really know what I wanted to do.
00:05:02.160 I kind of enjoyed a lot of different things growing up, but I found myself in college in
00:05:08.300 a class called reproductive physiology and I was enamored.
00:05:11.980 I loved it.
00:05:12.500 I loved learning about the reproductive cycle.
00:05:14.380 I loved learning about men and women's bodies and the reproductive capabilities.
00:05:19.440 I was absolutely fascinated.
00:05:21.580 And so I went on to study reproductive physiology and I have a master's degree in reproductive
00:05:27.340 physiology and molecular biology.
00:05:29.520 After graduate school, I was considering going on to become an OBGYN, something in health care.
00:05:36.960 Life has a way of kind of making decisions for you sometimes.
00:05:39.900 But I went on to do research in women's health, studying endometriosis and preterm birth at a
00:05:47.080 medical center in Tennessee.
00:05:48.700 Um, and while I was doing that, I found myself, um, really wanting to be more involved in the
00:05:57.000 lives of women, not just at a lab bench studying these things.
00:05:59.900 So I decided to go back to become a nurse, specifically a perinatal nurse.
00:06:04.100 And that's a nurse that, um, takes care of a woman from, um, you know, when she's pregnant
00:06:09.160 through labor and delivery and then in the postpartum period.
00:06:12.300 So I went back to become a nurse and during all of this, I actually went to a conference,
00:06:17.360 um, that, um, was not even remotely on the topic of women's health.
00:06:24.240 Um, but I was thumbing through the pamphlet, kind of bummed about who was speaking and what
00:06:30.620 I would be learning.
00:06:31.180 And I found Jennifer's photo and a little bio of her talk and what she'd be talking about.
00:06:36.160 And I was like, oh my goodness, I have been doing research on pig embryos and doing all
00:06:42.240 of these techniques and animals through my graduate studies.
00:06:45.620 I'm learning about women's health through my nursing degree.
00:06:49.100 And here's a woman who is actively talking about some of these struggles that I was internally
00:06:54.280 like kind of thinking about as a graduate student.
00:06:56.600 Like, should we be doing this?
00:06:58.680 Should we be taking eggs and sperm out of the body and putting them in a dish and then
00:07:02.740 putting them back?
00:07:03.580 Should we be, what is, what these bioethical questions, like what is right?
00:07:08.780 What is wrong?
00:07:09.340 Just because we can, should we?
00:07:10.680 Um, but nobody could answer those, you know, professors were kind of progressive and well,
00:07:16.480 we can, and I brought it to the church and a lot of pastors at the time.
00:07:20.880 I don't know.
00:07:21.680 I'm not, I don't want to talk about this.
00:07:23.580 Yeah.
00:07:24.120 Yeah.
00:07:24.480 Um, so anyway, I listened to her talk.
00:07:27.140 I was enamored by what the center was doing.
00:07:29.940 Um, I went home, watched the films, um, and just really wanted to get involved.
00:07:35.000 And, um, I think Jennifer probably thought I was a crazy fangirl at the time.
00:07:39.640 Um, but I, I, again, through, through providential timing moved to California and that's where
00:07:46.620 the center is based.
00:07:47.840 And, um, started volunteering using my expertise in understanding research studies and writing
00:07:53.280 and started working as a volunteer for the center for bioethics and culture.
00:07:56.640 Um, and then, um, all while working as a perinatal nurse, um, in California.
00:08:02.560 And then from there, uh, came on as a staff writer and now I'm the executive director.
00:08:08.500 So it's been a really fun journey and I'm very passionate about the work that we do.
00:08:13.800 Okay.
00:08:14.620 Let's go to, that's amazing.
00:08:17.500 Let's go to, you said egg selling, let's call it egg selling.
00:08:21.380 That's typically what I do because I did not realize, maybe I learned it from Jennifer.
00:08:25.580 I don't remember that it really is a misnomer.
00:08:28.500 And I know you mentioned that these women are getting paid for this, but you said you
00:08:32.740 didn't just say getting paid.
00:08:34.020 You said they're being exploited for their egg.
00:08:36.560 So what do you mean by that?
00:08:39.040 Yeah.
00:08:39.380 So I think you have to start with thinking about what kinds of women are targeted to become
00:08:44.480 egg sellers, right?
00:08:46.000 Um, these are women who are young, um, typically between 20 and 30, because those are our fertile
00:08:53.500 years.
00:08:53.960 That's when we're healthiest, our eggs are healthiest, our egg quality and quantity are
00:08:57.900 the best.
00:08:58.980 Um, and we think about if, if we were in the market for something, wouldn't we want, um,
00:09:06.100 a specific type of, we want the best product and we might want a specific type of that.
00:09:10.360 And so young women, um, where you might find these women who might need money.
00:09:16.000 Uh, college campuses, for example, who might be taking on college debt or have other things
00:09:20.560 going on, um, are advertised to as a way of making extra money.
00:09:26.560 And these advertisements are really slick.
00:09:28.660 Some of them include, um, that I've seen in the past, probably not now, but, you know,
00:09:33.920 free tanning sessions, pay for spring break.
00:09:36.480 Um, and they offer actually large amounts of money, um, for their eggs.
00:09:41.280 And then these women, um, often too, the advertisements will list a higher amount than
00:09:47.580 what they're often given because, um, a woman might answer an advertisement and say, oh, I
00:09:53.440 saw an advertisement for X amount.
00:09:55.320 Um, but then she might find out that she's not quite what they're looking for.
00:09:58.740 Perhaps, um, she's not an MIT grad or perhaps she's not studying.
00:10:04.080 She doesn't know a foreign language or she doesn't have a certain pedigree.
00:10:07.140 So then, but she's already in the clinic doors, um, and is intrigued.
00:10:11.680 And ultimately to these women, not just egg sellers, but women who go on to become surrogate
00:10:16.720 mothers, um, they have a good place in their heart.
00:10:20.140 They want to help a family in need.
00:10:22.040 Um, a woman thinks I don't need my eggs right now.
00:10:25.240 Of course I would want to help a family have a baby, of course.
00:10:30.160 And so their altruistic intentions are exploited.
00:10:33.460 And then you on, you incentivize on top of that with funds, funds, yeah.
00:10:38.520 To get out of debt, to pay for college.
00:10:40.280 Um, one woman I talked to, um, and that I interviewed, um, for her, it was to help her
00:10:46.200 mother pay rent.
00:10:47.500 Wow.
00:10:48.220 Um, and so it just sounds like, I mean, it sounds like the song fancy by Reba McIntyre.
00:10:53.920 I mean, she's talking about being a young prostitute because her mom is sending her out to like
00:10:58.920 help pay their bills.
00:11:00.200 This is not sex, but it is selling your body for money, sometimes for desperation.
00:11:06.420 Right.
00:11:06.620 And not just your body, you're not just putting your health at risk, but you are in essence
00:11:11.500 as an egg seller, sperm seller, you are giving away your future child.
00:11:16.020 That is genetically, um, that is your genetic material that will make a future child.
00:11:21.500 And I think that, um, young women don't always think that through.
00:11:25.400 So, um, yeah, they just think, well, this is my egg.
00:11:29.480 It's not my child, but it will be your child.
00:11:31.900 I know people, and I'm sure this person did it from a good place.
00:11:35.180 Cause she was just like a sweet, normal girl.
00:11:37.620 I don't think she was in a desperate situation, but she was very proud and would say on social
00:11:42.580 media, how many eggs she sold, how she would say donated and how many people have been able
00:11:48.380 to start families because of what she did.
00:11:50.200 And all the comments were applauding her.
00:11:52.300 Wow.
00:11:52.820 This is so amazing.
00:11:54.160 You're giving this gift.
00:11:55.860 Well, yes, you are.
00:11:57.900 And it is amazing because you are willing to give up your own child to someone else.
00:12:03.540 And you have no idea how that child will be, will be raised.
00:12:07.640 I mean, there are just so many layers there.
00:12:09.420 I think it is hard for women to realize because they are so disconnected from the father of that
00:12:14.420 child and who that person will be.
00:12:16.000 And a word on the advertisements too, the advertisements, um, in nowhere on them, do they
00:12:25.320 include the known risks or even the statement that there, we don't know what risks there are.
00:12:31.420 There's no indication that what she's doing is risky.
00:12:34.520 I just spoke with a woman who's actually trying to file a class action lawsuit in Canada who, um,
00:12:40.840 sold her eggs twice and the second time, um, was, was harmed physically by it.
00:12:47.440 And, um, and is now speaking out and trying to get other women who have been harmed in Canada
00:12:54.300 from donating their eggs.
00:12:55.660 She was, um, she just talks to me about, um, how she called the clinic with, um, pains,
00:13:04.700 complaints of shortness of breath and other side effects.
00:13:07.520 And instead of talking to a doctor, she was taught, she talked to a coordinator who just
00:13:12.740 reassured her that that was normal.
00:13:14.340 She actually never saw a physician or a provider of medical care until she was sedated on the
00:13:20.140 table, ready to collect her eggs.
00:13:21.700 And so these advertisements, I kind of went in a circle there, but these advertisements
00:13:27.140 are very flowerly.
00:13:29.060 They use very cunning and slick language to get women into the doors of the clinic.
00:13:33.500 And once they're, um, they're exploited for their eggs, um, they're put on high doses of,
00:13:39.760 um, hormones and medications that have long lasting side effects.
00:13:44.600 I've, we have a film called exploitation that Jennifer produced, um, for the center for biotech
00:13:49.460 and culture.
00:13:50.040 And it just tells the story of these women who were harmed, lose, having stroke, ovarian
00:13:55.940 hyperstimulation syndrome, losing their own fertility.
00:13:59.180 Um, and then that's not, those are just kind of immediate risks.
00:14:03.780 We don't know what happens to these women long-term, their fertility, long-term, their
00:14:08.240 risk for cancer later or their children.
00:14:11.180 Exactly.
00:14:12.120 Um, and so they're really exploited and it's a certain type of woman.
00:14:15.600 Um, and MIT, I have to say, um, in recent years, their newspaper, the tech has actually
00:14:22.140 called out these advertisements.
00:14:23.740 And I don't believe that they're allowed to advertise in their newspaper anymore because
00:14:27.760 they've called them out for what they are, which is elitist and racist and eugenic.
00:14:32.740 Um, because people who want an, an egg from a woman, they want a certain type of egg.
00:14:39.400 They want her to look a certain way.
00:14:40.840 They want her to have a background.
00:14:42.740 And I've actually seen this.
00:14:44.420 It typically is.
00:14:45.380 I know that gay men are not the only people that are buying eggs from women, but very often
00:14:49.680 they are.
00:14:50.160 And these journeys are, I would say, especially commercialized and glorified today.
00:14:56.360 I see it all over social media and unabashedly like Shane Dawson.
00:15:02.220 I think that's the YouTuber's name.
00:15:04.160 He went through this with his partner unabashedly talking about picking the egg seller from a catalog
00:15:11.340 that they wanted, um, her to have a certain look, a certain background.
00:15:16.440 There was another couple that we highlighted on the show maybe a year ago who said, you
00:15:20.600 know, we wanted her to have, uh, we wanted the baby to have like my smile, but have his
00:15:27.140 eyes.
00:15:27.700 And so we had to get a woman who looked like this.
00:15:29.960 I mean, you're literally picking women out of a Rolodex based on these features and purchasing
00:15:38.960 her DNA to create your child.
00:15:41.100 And that's not even the woman that's going to be carrying the child.
00:15:44.220 Right.
00:15:45.000 Right.
00:15:45.740 Um, it's very much like someone had explained to me, like the social, the apps for dating,
00:15:51.460 you know, you're swiping through and finding and, um, and finding the woman that you want
00:15:56.840 to be the genetic mother of your child.
00:15:59.220 And you're right.
00:15:59.860 It's, that's in the, in the, in the case of gay couples, um, or single men, they're explaining
00:16:05.720 two women, um, the egg donor, egg seller, and the surrogate mother.
00:16:09.920 Who are two different people.
00:16:12.560 And can you, we've talked about that before, but can you talk about why that is?
00:16:16.720 Is that a legal requirement that the egg seller and the surrogate or gestator have to be different?
00:16:22.200 It's not a legal requirement, but at the end of the last century, most people were pretty
00:16:28.360 repulsed at the idea of surrogacy because what we were operating from was like traditional
00:16:33.260 surrogacy.
00:16:34.100 Um, meaning that the woman who was carrying the child was also genetically related to the
00:16:38.880 child.
00:16:39.600 It was just the mom.
00:16:40.480 Right.
00:16:40.800 And that got really messy, of course, right?
00:16:43.060 Because women were selling their actual biological children.
00:16:46.560 Um, and so I think it was a strategic move to help disassociate this process.
00:16:53.220 Um, and so to make it a little less messy, it's still fraught with bioethical concerns and
00:16:59.260 is immoral.
00:17:01.380 Um, but now we have an egg seller who is a genetic mother to the child.
00:17:06.960 Um, and then we have the surrogate mother who of course is the birth mother to the child.
00:17:12.000 And therefore neither can really lay claim to the fact that they're the mother.
00:17:16.080 It's an intentional separation.
00:17:18.980 Because there's a bond that's created there.
00:17:22.220 And we even know that surrogates do create that bond with the baby they're carrying, even
00:17:26.200 when that baby is not genetically theirs, but it's less likely for there to be that strong
00:17:32.300 bond when the baby isn't genetically hers.
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00:18:37.600 So going back to the egg selling and the egg harvesting, just the process, you said that
00:18:48.540 those women, they have to be injected with a bunch of hormones because their bodies have
00:18:52.640 to be put into ovulation.
00:18:53.980 If we knew anything, most people don't know anything about women's cycles, but we released
00:18:59.080 one egg a month.
00:19:00.880 Sometimes I guess women can do two eggs a month.
00:19:03.260 That is very rare, but it's one egg a month.
00:19:07.240 That's our body's mechanism.
00:19:09.360 And if that egg is not fertilized, it disintegrates the endometrial lining.
00:19:13.740 You have a period.
00:19:14.680 That's how it's supposed to work.
00:19:17.720 But in these situations, they're not going through their natural cycle.
00:19:21.540 They are hyperovulating so that there are multiple eggs, sometimes dozens of eggs ready
00:19:27.840 to be retrieved.
00:19:28.920 So they mature in the follicles.
00:19:30.860 They're ready to be retrieved.
00:19:32.680 And that is when they are harvested.
00:19:35.640 Again, we're talking about one egg a month naturally versus 12, sometimes at most.
00:19:42.300 Upwards more.
00:19:43.040 I have the woman that's doing the class action in Canada was over 40 eggs.
00:19:48.500 40 eggs at once.
00:19:49.940 Because she was part of, she didn't know about this, a guaranteed program for the intended
00:19:54.040 parents who is a gay couple.
00:19:55.520 Um, they were part of a guaranteed program, meaning that there would be guaranteed a baby
00:20:00.780 at the end of their, their journey.
00:20:02.960 That's the fertility's language, not my own.
00:20:05.340 Oh my gosh.
00:20:06.540 And so she was, um, she was super responsive to the hormones.
00:20:10.960 They put her on, um, an increased dose than even what the standard protocol was, um, to extract
00:20:17.240 more eggs from her.
00:20:18.340 And, um, yes, and it's, it's dangerous.
00:20:22.100 Yeah.
00:20:22.400 It also, you mentioned all of the side effects that it could have.
00:20:25.440 It also apparently increases the chances of having breast cancer.
00:20:29.500 And just anecdotally, I know women who have been public about their IVF journey and that
00:20:33.820 it's out of nowhere.
00:20:35.360 A healthy 32 year old woman is diagnosed with breast cancer.
00:20:38.080 Yeah.
00:20:38.560 These women have no history of cancer.
00:20:42.000 They have no, um, because they're selected for all of this because people want healthy
00:20:46.660 eggs.
00:20:47.380 Um, but yes, um, we know several women, um, one who actually, um, is featured in exploitation
00:20:54.040 and in our film, Maggie's story, we actually just, um, we're back in touch with her because
00:20:58.020 she was diagnosed with, um, ductal carcinoma, which is for women over 50 who have a genetic
00:21:04.240 predisposition to this.
00:21:05.840 And she had none of that other than her egg donation, but her cancer has returned.
00:21:09.740 Um, and so we're just, but it absolutely has a risk for, um, long-term health outcomes.
00:21:18.920 And it's, it's deplorable to me because we're not tracking these women.
00:21:23.840 We're not, there's no national database that tracks these women who sell their eggs, um,
00:21:30.000 long-term, which we do in, um, in the cases of organ donation, we track people who, who
00:21:38.080 donate their, um, organs long-term to follow their health risks, to meticulously know what
00:21:43.680 happens to them.
00:21:44.220 We don't do that to these women.
00:21:45.520 Once they donate their eggs, once, um, the commodity has been captured from their body,
00:21:50.920 they are lost in medical history and we're doing a huge disservice to women.
00:21:55.500 Yes.
00:21:57.060 And why?
00:21:59.180 Like, what do you think the reason is?
00:22:00.940 Oh, I think it's because we'll see these increased rates of cancer.
00:22:04.540 I think that these cancers that came out of nowhere are going to, we're going to see that
00:22:08.420 women who sold their eggs, who were put on high doses, healthy women who respond really
00:22:13.600 well to hormones, um, are going to have increased incidences of cancer.
00:22:18.400 We're going to see long-term health risks.
00:22:20.580 And then the fertility industry is going to be held accountable, hopefully.
00:22:24.080 I mean, I think that's why.
00:22:25.100 I don't think fertility industry wants to be regulated.
00:22:28.720 They don't want to have to, um, track these women and make this data accessible.
00:22:34.380 Yeah.
00:22:34.760 Is there any, uh, information, any data about the children that are conceived and then born
00:22:43.100 via egg seller or sperm seller?
00:22:46.180 Yeah.
00:22:46.720 Outside of birth rates, not really.
00:22:49.040 Outside of tracking live birth weights or live birth rates.
00:22:53.400 Yeah.
00:22:53.620 And birth weights because they typically are actually smaller babies and born earlier than
00:22:59.200 normal naturally conceived.
00:23:01.700 Beyond those, that data, there's very little tracking.
00:23:04.480 Um, and I'm hopeful that as these, um, children who are born from these arrangements get older,
00:23:10.200 like Olivia Morrell and others, um, they'll speak out about their experiences.
00:23:14.100 Um, we have a huge, um, population of donor conceived adults now who are speaking out about,
00:23:20.500 um, not having access to their donors information.
00:23:25.260 Um, and so I'm hoping the same will happen too in the cases of, um, children who are born
00:23:30.360 from circuit mothers.
00:23:31.120 The problem there is there's no genetic link and they're often not on birth certificates.
00:23:35.320 So if parents are honest about their birth story, um, they might not ever know they were born
00:23:40.960 from a different mother.
00:23:43.080 Yes.
00:23:43.380 Which is a problem in itself.
00:23:44.660 You're also depriving that child, not only to their right to their genetic parents, but
00:23:49.820 also their right to their medical history, at least half of their medical history.
00:23:53.980 I mean, every time I make an appointment for my children, um, especially if it's a new
00:23:59.140 patient, they ask about parent history.
00:24:01.340 You have to fill out grandmother, grandfather, and obviously it's one thing if this child is
00:24:06.700 adopted, you try to get as much of that information from their genetic parents as possible.
00:24:12.540 Um, but in this situation, you are purposely cut off from that person.
00:24:16.780 You may never have any contact with the genetic mother of your child again, if you conceive this
00:24:21.620 child through excelling.
00:24:23.040 Right.
00:24:23.400 Right.
00:24:23.620 And a new, a study came out, actually, I was just reviewing this before I came in that
00:24:27.600 I think it was 2014 that showed almost half of people who sell their gametes go on to regret
00:24:36.240 it.
00:24:37.680 Gametes, that would be eggs or sperm.
00:24:39.300 Eggs or sperm.
00:24:39.840 Yeah.
00:24:40.280 And I just am thinking back to that college student who's enticed by the financial gain
00:24:44.080 and her altruistic motives are exploited.
00:24:46.840 And just to think that half of them regret that or wonder where their children might be.
00:24:52.240 Where are their kids?
00:24:53.660 And, um, you said that they're getting these advertisements.
00:24:58.520 Where are they typically getting advertised to?
00:25:01.260 Is it on social media?
00:25:02.300 Yeah.
00:25:02.600 Now with the advent of social media, it's, it's, it's there.
00:25:05.840 And I see, I don't know if these people are being paid, but I see a lot of influencers who
00:25:10.540 their mom influencers and all of a sudden they're on this surrogacy journey.
00:25:15.320 I just saw Miss Rachel, who I know a lot of people love, seems like a very sweet person
00:25:20.100 and a very good mother.
00:25:21.320 Or she just welcomed a child via surrogacy.
00:25:24.160 And it just adds to this narrative that surrogacy, I don't know if they also used an egg seller
00:25:29.320 or anything, but, um, that surrogacy is this altruistic, you know, benign, even benevolent
00:25:37.480 process that goes on.
00:25:39.560 Um, but it's, but it's not, would you say that surrogates are exploited in the same way
00:25:45.300 that egg sellers are?
00:25:47.680 Absolutely.
00:25:48.600 I think a different population is often targeted for a surrogate mother than an egg donor.
00:25:53.320 They're two very different populations.
00:25:55.580 Surrogate mothers, um, man, when they, and it seems like more and more contacting me daily
00:26:01.460 with their horror stories.
00:26:03.800 Um, but surrogate mothers tend to be women who, again, very altruistic.
00:26:10.400 They want to help.
00:26:11.340 They had easy pregnancies.
00:26:12.660 Um, they, they typically have small children at home or, or adolescents at home, but, um,
00:26:18.900 they've had easy pregnancies and they've had a friend or someone else they know that struggled
00:26:24.680 with infertility and they want to give the gift of life.
00:26:28.360 They want to help families.
00:26:29.500 And, um, often I found too, in our research that military wives are another big target for,
00:26:38.780 um, uh, for, uh, surrogacy.
00:26:42.220 Right.
00:26:42.660 From fertility agencies for surrogacy because they're at home with small children.
00:26:46.620 They're often hard to employ because they're moving around a lot, um, with their partners
00:26:51.020 in, in the military.
00:26:52.460 Um, and this is a way that they can contribute to their household, um, and also help another
00:26:57.660 family with this, this idea of duty to serve.
00:27:00.880 And, um, um, so, um, definitely exploitive in the same way.
00:27:07.220 Um, and they're also pumped with hormones.
00:27:09.940 Surrogates have to be pumped with hormones as well in order to carry the child, because
00:27:13.520 you have to be in the same part of your cycle that you would be if, uh, naturally, you know,
00:27:20.360 a fertilized egg was going to implant into your uterus.
00:27:23.760 So your endometrial lining has to be just right.
00:27:26.500 You basically have to look like you just ovulated in your body, right?
00:27:30.560 In order for that to work.
00:27:31.640 And that's an artificial process.
00:27:33.220 We don't know all the consequences of that.
00:27:35.420 Yeah, exactly.
00:27:36.540 We do know studies are showing, we did our own study at, um, the Center for Bioethics
00:27:41.300 and Culture, um, looking at 96 American women who had their own, um, spontaneous conceptions,
00:27:49.300 their own deliveries and a surrogate pregnancy.
00:27:52.380 And we do know that surrogate pregnancies are high risk in nature.
00:27:56.200 Um, they set a mom up to have, um, increased rates of C-sections, preterm birth.
00:28:01.240 Uh, placental abruption, placental abnormalities, high blood pressure, gestational diabetes,
00:28:07.140 all of these things, the list goes on and on.
00:28:09.620 And in the United States, um, you know, we really are behind in our maternal morbidity
00:28:16.360 and mortality.
00:28:16.960 And one of the biggest things is preeclampsia and high blood pressure in women.
00:28:21.020 And I just find it odd that we still puddle and we still promote surrogacy when we know
00:28:30.320 that surrogate pregnancies are more likely to have these same adverse outcomes that we
00:28:35.220 see in our records for, um, that are causing our terrible rates of maternal morbidity and
00:28:41.380 mortality.
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00:29:29.860 You said that there are two different kinds of people.
00:29:32.760 If I understand, it's like the egg seller.
00:29:35.220 They typically want them to be young and thin and beautiful, maybe rich.
00:29:39.760 Although, like you said, that's just not always the case.
00:29:43.520 But I have heard, I remember I was listening to one couple on a podcast, a gay couple say
00:29:49.220 that they wanted someone who went to an Ivy League school.
00:29:51.720 And so depending where you are, a bunch of Hollywood celebrities, they've got their own
00:29:56.880 clinics and special ways of doing things.
00:29:58.620 They've got their own exclusive catalogs.
00:30:00.540 But they just want someone who looks good, who maybe isn't inherently unhealthy, who seems
00:30:06.180 to have good genes, who's young.
00:30:08.400 Whereas for the surrogate, it doesn't matter what they look like.
00:30:11.240 And it's actually the maybe in some cases, the poorer they are, the better, because the
00:30:15.240 more desperate they are.
00:30:16.080 And do they have a history of, you know, full term pregnancies and births themselves?
00:30:22.320 And so, I mean, it's like The Handmaid's Tale, but the very same people that support it
00:30:27.240 say that Christian conservatives are like The Handmaid's Tale because we don't believe
00:30:31.040 in killing babies inside the womb.
00:30:32.900 It's crazy.
00:30:33.840 It's crazy how people see, they don't see that connection.
00:30:37.340 They don't.
00:30:37.840 And you're absolutely right.
00:30:40.600 The genetics of the surrogate mother don't play into the decision for, she just has to
00:30:47.980 be a proved breeder.
00:30:49.160 Yeah.
00:30:50.000 Which is how we treat our cattle.
00:30:51.720 Yeah, exactly.
00:30:52.480 Well, that's what it reminds me.
00:30:53.020 It reminds me of a cow.
00:30:54.340 It reminds me of just like an animal.
00:30:57.100 And I know that, you know, Brittany, I forget her last name, but I had her on and she was
00:31:02.360 introduced to me by Jennifer and she was the surrogate that carried for the two men.
00:31:06.560 She got diagnosed with cancer.
00:31:08.140 They said, we don't want anything to do with you or this thing anymore.
00:31:12.700 And she had to deliver early.
00:31:14.500 The baby died and they wanted to start over.
00:31:17.580 They didn't want to honor their child.
00:31:19.380 They didn't want to bury him.
00:31:20.420 He was discarded like medical waste because they were angry at her that she got diagnosed
00:31:25.020 with cancer and had to deliver the preterm baby.
00:31:27.600 That is how you treat cattle.
00:31:29.460 And people need to know that that might not be every single case of surrogacy, but that
00:31:34.720 is what happens.
00:31:36.300 And I hear a lot, well, they're consenting.
00:31:38.760 So why does it matter?
00:31:39.960 Why should we be talking about this?
00:31:41.640 What would you say to that?
00:31:43.020 Oh, that's a good question.
00:31:43.860 A lot of people give me that consenting, uh, argument.
00:31:48.600 Yeah.
00:31:48.920 This is even for egg sellers.
00:31:51.220 Um, oh, well, woman can do with what her body, what she wants.
00:31:54.600 Well, one, we don't know what we don't know.
00:31:58.140 Again, we don't know in egg selling what we're doing to these young women, short term, long
00:32:02.800 term.
00:32:03.100 We just don't know.
00:32:04.040 So you cannot say, sure.
00:32:05.240 You can say, you can say there are no known medical risks, which is often what's told to
00:32:10.560 them.
00:32:10.720 But that doesn't mean that there are no risks.
00:32:12.960 That means that there are no known risks because nobody's looking.
00:32:15.920 The same can go for surrogate mothers.
00:32:18.260 Um, as I said, studies are starting to show that these are inherently risky, um, procedures,
00:32:25.120 um, IVF surrogacy.
00:32:26.940 Um, they're hard on a woman.
00:32:28.400 That's a lot of reasons why women stop doing IVF because of the emotional toll and the physical
00:32:32.920 toll.
00:32:33.860 Um, but they're not being, when I speak to these women who are harmed, they, the harms are gloss
00:32:40.640 over.
00:32:41.040 They're not truly, I don't think, given, um, informed consent.
00:32:45.320 There are conflicts of interest at every step.
00:32:49.280 It's very interesting that the same person that's warning her of the harms or might be
00:32:54.600 harms or telling her what risks there might be there have a vested interest in her signing
00:32:59.580 up to do it.
00:33:00.560 Yeah.
00:33:00.700 Um, they have a vested interest in her womb and her eggs.
00:33:04.760 Um, and so it's glossed over also, you know, um, a lot of surrogate mothers, um, are offered
00:33:12.480 lawyers during the contract phase of before they, they have the embryo transfer and they're
00:33:17.860 signing the contract.
00:33:18.660 But that lawyer is typically picked for, paid for by the agency or the intended parents.
00:33:24.220 So there's just a lot of invested, a lot of, um, messy conflicts of interest there.
00:33:30.020 Um, and the other thing is, is we don't always get to do what we want with our bodies.
00:33:34.960 I cannot go on Craigslist and sell myself as a slave.
00:33:37.640 I cannot sell my organs.
00:33:39.180 I cannot smoke anywhere that I want to.
00:33:41.700 Um, there are limits to what we can do with our bodies.
00:33:44.480 So I absolutely hate that argument that just because it's her body, it's her choice.
00:33:48.840 Um, and then we could also extend that to the baby that she's carrying.
00:33:52.300 These are the unconsenting subjects here.
00:33:55.340 Um, these are the unconsenting parties that is, that are so often glossed over in these
00:34:02.460 contracts.
00:34:02.860 And when we talk about it, even in my interviews, I find myself talking a lot about the harms
00:34:06.840 that have happened, whether it be emotional or physical harms to the surrogate mother and
00:34:10.840 her family.
00:34:11.460 And then I have to pause and think like, wait a second here.
00:34:13.960 At the center of this is a baby.
00:34:15.980 This is a child who didn't ask, who's not consenting, didn't ask to be a part of this.
00:34:20.580 Yeah, exactly.
00:34:21.300 Who has a right to know and be loved by his parents.
00:34:24.340 Um, we do not have a right to a child.
00:34:26.480 We don't have a right to do with what our bodies, what we want to do.
00:34:29.140 Those arguments, um, break down when you really look under a magnifying glass.
00:34:34.000 I hear all the time, but I had to use a surrogate.
00:34:37.900 I, we had to use a surrogate.
00:34:39.640 I had to do IVF.
00:34:40.940 That's how I had to have children.
00:34:43.620 Okay.
00:34:44.160 But like you said, no one has a right to have a child by any means necessary.
00:34:49.000 Just because you want to have a child, that's a good desire.
00:34:52.200 And like whoever is saying that you're probably going to be an awesome parent, but you can't
00:34:58.280 steal a child.
00:34:59.280 There are all kinds of ways that you cannot legally or morally go obtain a child.
00:35:05.620 And so if we can acknowledge that, that some methods of obtaining a child are moral and
00:35:11.120 some are not, then we should apply that to how we conceive them, how we reproduce them,
00:35:17.320 how they're carried.
00:35:18.920 And there, I mean, people, for some reason, really hate when you bring up the reality of
00:35:23.000 adoption, that there are thousands of kids who are earth side, who need parents.
00:35:28.940 And it's just like, that's so ridiculous.
00:35:31.100 Everyone should have a right to their biological child.
00:35:33.420 But that's just not true.
00:35:35.440 Again, the any means necessary approach to fulfilling your desires is not a Christian
00:35:40.780 one, that's for sure.
00:35:41.940 But you can also see just from a pragmatic standpoint, how it leads to really bad places.
00:35:46.420 Yeah.
00:35:46.840 Yeah.
00:35:47.480 I'm just thinking, and I want to back up a little bit.
00:35:49.580 We talked about Ms. Rachel and we talked about influencers and talking about the groups
00:35:55.060 of women who are surrogate mothers.
00:35:56.500 Um, and you're very right on that surrogate mothers who, um, who, who have been once or
00:36:05.360 twice and have kind of aged out of the process do go on to become, um, working for the clinics
00:36:13.960 to recruit other women to become, um, egg, uh, or to become surrogate mothers.
00:36:19.860 And I'm just thinking of the story of a woman who contacted me a few weeks ago who just had
00:36:24.560 the surrogacy, uh, pregnancy from, from hell and the whole thing and how she was recruited
00:36:30.160 by, um, family members who worked for the agency.
00:36:33.000 And so I guess to people like that, I just want to say, stop it, you know, stop glorifying
00:36:37.200 this, stop making this, um, mainstream and popular and beautiful.
00:36:43.240 It's, it's not.
00:36:44.520 Yeah.
00:36:44.920 You know, I read something talking about like how the babies are affected by not just
00:36:50.400 egg selling and all of that, but even just IVF, even if it's a husband and wife having
00:36:55.280 their baby through IVF.
00:36:56.680 And we've talked about this several times on the show, but this was a new fact that I
00:37:00.500 didn't know that if you go through IVF specifically for male infertility, so his swimmers ain't
00:37:07.860 swimming, they're just not mobile for whatever reason.
00:37:10.960 And they're unable to get to the egg to conceive.
00:37:14.460 If you do IVF for that reason, the child is something like 60% more likely to have severe
00:37:22.580 autism.
00:37:23.740 And that makes sense because I'm actually reading this book right now about women's cycles
00:37:29.180 and how the birth control pill affects women's cycles.
00:37:32.660 And there's a part in there just talking about how our bodies go through this natural selection
00:37:39.240 process to make sure that the woman is releasing the strongest egg.
00:37:43.780 Not every egg gets to mature every cycle.
00:37:46.460 Just one egg does the best egg your body deems.
00:37:49.800 And not every sperm is mobile enough, quick enough, can endure long enough in order to
00:37:55.920 fertilize that egg.
00:37:56.920 It's got to be the best sperm and the best egg.
00:37:59.840 And then the endometrial lining that is there after ovulation is actually supposed to be
00:38:07.660 like the first endurance test for that fertilized egg.
00:38:11.120 It's only the fertilized egg that can get through the endometrial lining to the uterus, get that
00:38:16.480 blood source.
00:38:17.260 And as you all know, I'm not educating you, just everyone out there is fascinating to me
00:38:21.180 that, okay, that's the one that's going to make it to implantation.
00:38:26.180 And it's so amazing.
00:38:28.640 But when you curtail all of that, the body's natural, natural selection process, and you
00:38:34.500 say this sperm that really has no business reproducing because it's not supposed to be
00:38:39.800 like it's his body's way of telling him this sperm shouldn't create offspring.
00:38:44.520 When you do that, there are problems.
00:38:46.380 Now, all those children are valuable no matter what their diagnosis is.
00:38:49.860 But you see, like when we try to get around the natural process, we are doing things to
00:38:54.980 the people that we're creating.
00:38:56.640 Right.
00:38:57.140 Well, ICSI, which is one of the technologies that just introduces one sperm to the egg,
00:39:01.740 rather than just putting an egg in a petri dish with sperm and the best one who gets in,
00:39:07.280 who cracks the zona pellucida and all of that.
00:39:09.980 But ICSI, where you actually are choosing the best of both and doing it, does have, it's
00:39:16.200 supposed to be better outcomes, but studies are showing, like you said, that outcomes are
00:39:19.080 actually worse outcomes, including more rates of perinatal death and outcomes.
00:39:24.980 Other congenital deformities and that sort of thing.
00:39:28.640 Yeah.
00:39:28.820 So when they're actually showing that outcomes are actually worse in those types of technologies
00:39:32.860 where you're just picking one sperm with the egg.
00:39:36.860 Putting them together.
00:39:37.520 Because that journey that the sperm is supposed to go on is actually like important for the
00:39:43.120 genetic choosing that your body does.
00:39:45.500 It's so fascinating.
00:39:47.300 Again, when technology takes you from what's natural to what's possible, we have to ask,
00:39:51.140 is this good?
00:39:52.120 Like, is this moral?
00:39:52.840 Is this beneficial?
00:39:53.720 I want to get more into the gene editing and genetic stuff in just a second.
00:39:57.760 But before we leave surrogacy, you said a stat that I thought was really disturbing on
00:40:04.760 Nicole Shanahan's show.
00:40:06.200 And I've also seen it on X, that there was a 2020 study that showed that at least 34% of
00:40:12.680 intended parents, sometimes the acronym is IP for surrogates, are predominantly single Asian males
00:40:21.220 in their 40s living in Asia, like India, China.
00:40:26.080 Is that right?
00:40:27.240 So there was a study done recently in Fertility and Sterility, one of the magazines or journals
00:40:32.840 of the American Society of Reproductive Medicine that looked at gestational surrogate pregnancies
00:40:43.380 from 2014 to, I believe, 2022.
00:40:47.940 And 32% of surrogate pregnancies were from intended parents outside of the United States.
00:40:57.760 So international, 32%.
00:40:59.980 And then of that 32%, they were predominantly, yes, single men, or men, that could be, it
00:41:10.120 didn't delineate single versus couple, but men, predominantly men from Asia over the age
00:41:16.360 of 40.
00:41:17.500 Okay.
00:41:18.220 Got it.
00:41:18.560 Does that make sense?
00:41:19.040 Yep, it does.
00:41:19.780 Like a large percentage of that, about, so one third of intended parents are from abroad.
00:41:27.820 Yes.
00:41:28.020 And most of those are these males from Asia.
00:41:30.860 Exactly.
00:41:31.620 Which is troubling.
00:41:32.280 Close behind by France and Spain, where surrogacy is also illegal.
00:41:36.380 Okay.
00:41:37.160 Wow.
00:41:37.620 My goodness.
00:41:38.740 And do we know, like, are these, are these single males?
00:41:41.680 I said single males.
00:41:42.540 Do we know if they're single males?
00:41:43.580 Yeah.
00:41:43.780 I went back to review that.
00:41:44.900 I don't think we do know that.
00:41:46.220 I'd have, I'd have to look back again at the article.
00:41:48.540 From what I saw, it just says males.
00:41:51.160 Okay.
00:41:51.780 Yeah.
00:41:52.300 Which is still troubling.
00:41:53.340 It's still very troubling.
00:41:54.780 And so, you know, I actually spent a great deal of time in the last, in early 2025, we're
00:42:02.640 still in early 2025, but January, trying to create, like, what would an ideal law for
00:42:08.100 me be, right?
00:42:09.580 Because I don't, I'm a realist.
00:42:11.480 I would love to see surrogacy and the whole fertility industry just blown over and cut
00:42:18.500 off.
00:42:19.000 I don't, I don't see that happening.
00:42:20.460 It's a growing industry.
00:42:21.660 It's a billion dollar industry.
00:42:23.400 Projections show that it's not stopping.
00:42:25.280 Now we're targeting young women to freeze their eggs, not just give away their eggs,
00:42:30.000 but now you can freeze them.
00:42:31.700 We're marketing it.
00:42:32.820 We're changing.
00:42:33.480 I don't think it's going anywhere.
00:42:34.460 So what would I like to see?
00:42:35.840 Well, I would like to see us model Italy.
00:42:40.260 I want to close our borders.
00:42:41.680 Let's stop one third of these gestational surrogacy arrangements.
00:42:46.060 Let's stop them right now.
00:42:47.260 Let's close our borders.
00:42:48.420 No one can come to the United States to hire a surrogate mother.
00:42:52.220 And I also think the inverse should be true, that we should not leave the United States
00:42:56.440 and exploit other women in other countries to be surrogate mothers either.
00:42:59.740 Um, so I would like to see, um, laws around that, that we just close our borders.
00:43:06.480 Yeah.
00:43:06.640 No more of that kind of surrogacy tourism, also birth tourism, because you have sometimes
00:43:13.780 surrogates, but people coming here just to give birth, whether they are actually the
00:43:18.540 mother of the child they're bearing or they're a surrogate, they come here to give birth.
00:43:22.400 So their child has dual citizenship, Chinese American citizenship.
00:43:26.320 And I've talked to a lot of people who have actually been nurses, L and D nurses who have
00:43:30.580 dealt with that.
00:43:31.560 And yeah, you, you've dealt with that.
00:43:34.060 Okay.
00:43:34.240 Tell us about it.
00:43:35.120 No, I, I've had, I've taken care of patients, um, who move over here near the end of their
00:43:40.460 pregnancy or come visit near the end of their pregnancy and, um, deliver here in, well, not
00:43:46.140 here where we are, but in California, um, which actually, if you look at that study even
00:43:50.440 further, um, it goes down to break down what states those surrogate women are from.
00:43:55.500 And I think it was somewhere in 76% of those are from California.
00:44:00.020 Um, because I think the, the proximity to Asia, um, and then also we are the wild, wild
00:44:06.720 west of Bigford, like anything goes in California.
00:44:09.300 You can have a baby by any means necessary doing whatever you'd like.
00:44:14.980 So, um, I think, I think that's the reason.
00:44:17.780 Um, but yeah, I, I working in, in a hospital, I see that happen where, um, women come over
00:44:24.140 from predominantly Asia and my own experience to have, um, their children here.
00:44:29.840 Yeah.
00:44:30.660 My goodness.
00:44:31.720 And it's kind of sad.
00:44:33.180 Um, I often spend a lot of time.
00:44:35.680 Um, I don't work in a hospital that does that currently, but, um, I used to spend a lot
00:44:39.800 of time with those, those women because they often don't have anyone.
00:44:42.660 There's no support system.
00:44:43.780 They've come over by themselves and they're in the labor room by themselves.
00:44:47.300 And, um, so I often spend a lot of time with them and very sweet women, but they're here
00:44:51.680 to, so that they can have a baby that's, um, that has United States citizenship.
00:44:56.200 My gosh, all that stress has an effect on her long-term also has an effect on the baby.
00:45:01.060 Yeah.
00:45:01.820 Like people just don't want to consider that how a baby is gestated, how a baby is conceived
00:45:07.140 and how a baby is born.
00:45:08.420 Like that all matters.
00:45:09.540 It matters to all of us.
00:45:10.960 It matters a great deal.
00:45:12.580 And there was another study that would just came out this week and it was kind of one of
00:45:16.260 those like dust studies.
00:45:17.100 Like we spent, we spent time and money researching that.
00:45:19.340 Like, isn't this obvious?
00:45:20.200 It just showed that the bond during pregnancy impacted the first year of life for a child and,
00:45:24.980 and the, and the connection between the mother and child for that first year.
00:45:28.460 So if she had a positive pregnancy experience and felt really connected to the child, then
00:45:33.160 that connection, um, only strengthened in the next year.
00:45:37.080 And, and the inverse was not, was true that if she wasn't as connected, then it had a detrimental
00:45:41.780 effect that first year of life.
00:45:43.300 And I just thought in my head, okay, surrogate pregnancies, again, we have, it is a whole body
00:45:49.000 experience that, that, that woman, um, is, is just her whole entire body.
00:45:57.900 Even if they say that they don't, um, they don't connect with that child or they realize
00:46:02.920 that it's not their own.
00:46:04.460 Um, most women we find in studies do bond with that child.
00:46:08.580 They do care about that child.
00:46:10.140 Yeah.
00:46:11.660 And now we, more than, you know, we, we've learned about microchimerism now and, and there,
00:46:16.180 it's such an intricately linked relationship and process.
00:46:19.660 And then that baby, of course, the sounds, the smells, the feelings it feels, all of these
00:46:24.960 things.
00:46:25.240 It's just, it's incredibly interconnected.
00:46:27.740 And we know this, we know this.
00:46:29.580 I work again at a hospital in California.
00:46:31.060 Um, and maybe you've had children, you've heard of the baby friendly initiative, right?
00:46:35.880 Which, um, is an initiative put forth by, um, the world health organization to promote
00:46:41.460 breastfeeding and bonding.
00:46:42.580 And we talk about the golden hour and how important that is that right after birth that that baby
00:46:47.020 goes to, um, the mother it knows because, because that golden hour is so important for,
00:46:52.640 gosh, not just breastfeeding, but breathing and temperature regulation and hormones, just
00:46:59.160 all of these things.
00:47:00.180 And, but we don't care if it's a surrogate mother, we don't care about baby friendly
00:47:03.620 initiatives.
00:47:04.020 That doesn't matter, right?
00:47:04.960 No, we take that baby away and give them to strangers and people say, well, you don't
00:47:10.960 remember your birth.
00:47:11.920 It doesn't matter.
00:47:12.480 Well, there are a lot of things that affect us that we don't remember.
00:47:15.560 I always tell this story of my, or maybe I've told it once before, but my oldest, she
00:47:20.680 was born via C-section and she, they didn't give her to me.
00:47:25.900 They put her on the little table that, you know, measures the breath.
00:47:30.280 And they said, oh, her breathing's not great.
00:47:32.120 And I just said, please, can I hold her?
00:47:34.220 And so they let me hold her and they wheeled us back up to the room.
00:47:37.700 And then the little, uh, the NICU guy, he comes in, uh, to wheel her away with the little
00:47:43.760 clear bassinet.
00:47:44.740 They take her and I say, can you just measure her breath one more time?
00:47:48.760 Whatever the technical term is, the medical term is for that.
00:47:51.340 Respiration, right.
00:47:51.600 Yes.
00:47:52.260 Respiration, right.
00:47:53.660 And so she had been on my chest for probably five minutes and then they laid her on there
00:47:58.400 and they were like, oh, nevermind.
00:48:00.360 It was perfect.
00:48:01.360 And so her breath was perfect.
00:48:03.460 She just, she really just needed mom at that point.
00:48:06.000 She needed the home that she knew.
00:48:10.020 And I know that's not the case for every child.
00:48:11.960 Sometimes they do need extra support, but she needed that skin to skin.
00:48:16.640 She needed the heartbeat that she knew, the smell that she knew.
00:48:19.720 And even if those babies aren't genetically related to the mom that's carrying them, the
00:48:23.880 woman that's carrying them, that's still the only home they've ever known.
00:48:27.420 That's what they're aching for after birth.
00:48:29.400 Yeah.
00:48:30.060 Yeah.
00:48:30.940 And it has a really big effect that people just don't realize.
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00:49:39.540 You mentioned that India, France, and Italy have all outlawed commercial surrogacy.
00:49:44.980 Yeah, yeah.
00:49:46.960 Italy just recently closed its borders to intended parents within Italy, leaving Italy to exploit
00:49:57.600 women in other countries.
00:49:58.620 So it's always been the case that surrogacy is illegal in Italy.
00:50:04.340 They can't hire a surrogate mother there and do these contractual arrangements in Italy,
00:50:09.780 but they could leave.
00:50:10.800 They could come to the United States and hire a surrogate mother, the Ukraine, Mexico, wherever.
00:50:15.480 But recently, just this year, at the tail end of last, Italy closed its doors both ways.
00:50:21.700 So it became a criminal offense for intended parents to leave Italy to hire a woman.
00:50:29.260 Yeah, good.
00:50:29.960 That's what I want to see here.
00:50:31.480 In France, they view this as slavery, modern-day slavery.
00:50:35.780 And so they don't allow surrogacy on the grounds that it's slavery.
00:50:39.700 I often say there's enough about surrogacy that somebody can find something they don't like
00:50:47.020 about it.
00:50:47.600 So whether you think it is deeply regressive and exploitive, whether you are against it
00:50:53.860 because of the harms it causes on women and children, maybe you're against the financial
00:50:57.440 component.
00:50:57.920 But there's enough about surrogacy.
00:51:00.460 You can find something not to like about it.
00:51:02.640 And so I think, you know, India, for them, they closed their borders after children were
00:51:07.540 being left and abandoned because they weren't wanted by the intended parents.
00:51:11.940 And so they actually allow surrogacy for—it's very specific within India, with couples in
00:51:23.360 India, but they don't allow people to come into India to exploit their women.
00:51:29.800 Yeah.
00:51:30.160 And that is something that has happened.
00:51:31.880 Same thing with Ukraine, poor countries.
00:51:34.500 And of course, with the war between Russia and Ukraine, there were all these babies that
00:51:37.880 were abandoned over there because their parents couldn't come get them after they were born.
00:51:42.140 And people just need to realize this is the moral, ethical risk that we are taking every
00:51:47.360 time we engage in some kind of transactional experience.
00:51:51.260 It really is human trafficking.
00:51:53.640 And yeah, there's some consent involved, just like there's consent when it comes to prostitution.
00:51:58.980 But if you've got a desperate woman who is being told this is what you have to do or this
00:52:04.100 is what you need to do, is it really consent?
00:52:06.040 And really, none of this is consent if you are never told the adverse effects.
00:52:11.000 It's not informed consent, actually.
00:52:12.980 You're saying yes to something you don't realize you're saying yes to.
00:52:15.660 We talked the other day on this show about this new technology or a new company that is, of
00:52:23.360 course, out of California, Silicon Valley, that claims that it is helping children win
00:52:29.380 the genetic lottery every time.
00:52:31.540 So it's basically just taking the best, best, quote unquote, from the mom and the dad, creating
00:52:38.580 a child, making sure that none of the embryos that are created have these kinds of hereditary
00:52:45.700 diseases or weaknesses.
00:52:47.640 You can pick eye color.
00:52:49.160 Still, you can pick gender, which is pretty normal, actually, for a lot of people who use
00:52:54.080 IVF.
00:52:54.560 But I guess this technology takes it to the next level.
00:52:58.800 And this person actually said, who owns this company, that sex is for fun, like IVF is for
00:53:05.640 babies.
00:53:06.660 That just is so shocking and disturbing to me.
00:53:11.000 So disturbing to me.
00:53:13.020 But people don't realize that this eugenics is very much par for the course when it comes
00:53:20.640 to so much of our reproductive technology industry.
00:53:23.180 Yeah.
00:53:23.680 The very start of this, the very start of assisted reproductive technologies is eugenic to the
00:53:30.600 core.
00:53:31.080 So the very first donor, sperm donor, on record was done by, or donation was done by Dr.
00:53:41.280 Pankost.
00:53:42.040 And he used a medical student, and I think the story goes that it was the best looking medical
00:53:48.540 student that he had to inseminate a woman without her knowledge while she was anesthetized.
00:53:54.420 Oh, my gosh.
00:53:55.460 She thought she was being inseminated with her own husband's sperm.
00:54:01.040 But Dr. Pankost had realized that he was shooting blanks.
00:54:05.440 Nothing was there.
00:54:06.240 So he then used his medical student to inseminate this woman without her knowledge.
00:54:13.080 And so, and the best looking, that's an important point and aspect because it is so eugenic.
00:54:19.520 The founder or developer of IVF, Dr. Edwards, was a part of a eugenic society.
00:54:27.640 And I find it incredibly disturbing that I did a little digging on him when I got into this space
00:54:35.220 that on Louise Brown, who was the first test tube baby in the 70s, on her 25th birthday,
00:54:42.220 he gave a speech or spoke about it and said that infertility, and I'm loosely quoting here,
00:54:50.420 I probably won't get every word right, but infertility or IVF was more than just about infertility.
00:54:57.400 It was about finding out who was in charge of conception.
00:55:01.300 And was it God or was it scientists in the lab?
00:55:05.120 And his conclusion was that it was him, it was scientists that are in charge.
00:55:10.280 And that's just deeply alarming to me.
00:55:12.460 And so, yes, from the very beginning, this science, this technology has been eugenic.
00:55:17.820 And then, of course, we see it as we've spoke at length about egg selling,
00:55:21.560 certain pedigree is selected, a certain person is selected.
00:55:28.560 And then now we see it in a technology that you're talking about, pre-implantation genetic testing,
00:55:36.180 which can be offered to couples or single people, whoever is using IVF and or surrogacy,
00:55:43.340 as an add-on feature to their, because it's sold and it's marketed.
00:55:50.500 And I actually, I had a very interesting conversation with a woman in England who is an embryologist
00:55:56.040 and has studied this and is in this space.
00:56:01.520 And she agrees that it's just market, it's a marketing, it's the new hot thing.
00:56:07.200 It's the new femtech, right?
00:56:09.180 Femtech.
00:56:09.820 It's everyone wants the next new cutting edge technology thing.
00:56:12.840 And this is it, like egg freezing.
00:56:14.940 But it's actually not improving outcomes.
00:56:18.020 It's incredibly eugenic.
00:56:20.440 I think I saw that on X, all the buzz that that article was getting and that new technology.
00:56:27.740 That new technology.
00:56:28.660 Yeah, that was getting.
00:56:30.640 And we just need to call it for what it is.
00:56:34.140 It's eugenic.
00:56:34.840 Yep, absolutely.
00:56:37.100 And I'm so glad that CBC is talking about this because not enough people are.
00:56:41.200 Although I do think that more people are.
00:56:45.800 And then just a few, like just a few years ago, it's not that I think that, you know,
00:56:52.500 obviously Jennifer was talking about it.
00:56:54.480 Katie Fouse is talking about it.
00:56:55.860 You've been working in this, but I do credit Jennifer a lot.
00:57:00.300 And I'm not like, oh, it's my show.
00:57:02.700 I'm not saying that.
00:57:04.000 However, that conversation, I will say, had a domino effect.
00:57:08.320 And I can't take credit for it because it was all Jennifer's expertise and my audience
00:57:12.260 who got so engaged.
00:57:13.380 But that was one of the first conversations or discussions about this on any conservative
00:57:19.980 podcast at all.
00:57:21.360 I think it was maybe in 2021.
00:57:22.840 And after that, I've seen more and more, thank God, conservative commentators, podcasters,
00:57:29.740 influencers, whatever, say, hang on, this is weird.
00:57:33.020 This is weird.
00:57:34.220 And there's something about this that I think is worth investigating at the very least.
00:57:40.820 And we hope to get the Trump administration looped in on some of those risks.
00:57:45.720 But I'm grateful for what y'all do.
00:57:47.920 Where can they find the movies that you've helped produce?
00:57:51.400 Because we didn't even get into how gender also, like everything that you were saying,
00:57:56.460 sorry.
00:57:56.940 Now I'm like, I thought about this, but you were talking about the lawyers that are hired,
00:58:00.980 the doctors that are handpicked to approve these women to sell their eggs and surrogacy and
00:58:06.660 all of that.
00:58:07.520 It's very similar to the gender industry, which is a child can walk in, say, I want
00:58:12.860 to be the opposite sex.
00:58:13.820 They handpick the endocrinologist, the psychologist, everyone who they know is going to be affirming
00:58:18.260 of that child so they can make thousands of dollars off of sterilizing and butchering
00:58:22.980 that child's body.
00:58:24.000 The parallels to this are just like uncanny.
00:58:27.260 And it's a lot of the same people, right?
00:58:29.100 Yeah.
00:58:29.420 And not only parallel, but cyclical.
00:58:32.340 Because when you sterilize and you put a child on puberty blockers and you're setting
00:58:36.660 them up to have to use assisted reproductive technologies if they decide to conceive children
00:58:41.500 later, if they go that route.
00:58:43.240 These children, as young as eight, younger, are asked about fertility preservation, which
00:58:49.780 is highly experimental, one.
00:58:51.580 And then two, what eight-year-old knows how many children and what kind of family they
00:58:56.400 want to have?
00:58:57.220 If you would have asked me that, I would have said I wanted nine children.
00:58:59.840 You know, it's just, it's crazy.
00:59:01.720 But you're setting this child up for yet another industry.
00:59:06.880 Yeah.
00:59:07.480 I remember it was Jennifer who said that they're creating lifelong slaves to the medical industrial
00:59:12.100 complex.
00:59:12.900 Yeah.
00:59:13.180 And that's exactly what is happening.
00:59:15.280 And, you know, making a lot of money off of it.
00:59:17.980 Anyway, you all produced a documentary kind of about this, right?
00:59:21.600 Yeah.
00:59:22.060 Well, we have three, a trilogy of films on the space of gender medicine.
00:59:26.720 We have a trilogy and some of our assisted reproductive technologies.
00:59:32.780 There's one on egg donate, egg selling, surrogate mothers called breeders.
00:59:36.800 There's one on anonymous gamete donation.
00:59:40.300 Those, all of our films are completely free on YouTube.
00:59:43.480 Our YouTube channel is at CBC Network Org.
00:59:46.260 Um, and then I, there's a, we have so much information on our YouTube channel, slews of
00:59:52.040 interviews that I've had with, um, those who are donor conceived, surrogate mothers, um,
00:59:58.440 egg sellers.
00:59:59.500 And, and that's what really, we need people to tell their story.
01:00:02.560 And if this has been you, maybe people are listening and they've been an egg seller or
01:00:07.260 a surrogate mother and they want to tell their story.
01:00:08.820 I want to hear from them.
01:00:10.300 So, um, yeah, we can be found at cbc-network.org.
01:00:15.620 Awesome.
01:00:16.260 Thank you so much.
01:00:17.360 And they can follow you too on X.
01:00:19.460 It's Cal underscore sell.
01:00:21.720 Callie, thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
01:00:24.360 Yeah.
01:00:24.540 Thank you so much for having me.
01:00:25.820 It's been a pleasure.
01:00:26.660 Yes.
01:00:26.960 Bye.
01:00:27.740 Bye.
01:00:34.200 Bye.
01:00:38.860 Bye.
01:00:38.940 Bye.
01:00:44.100 Bye.
01:00:45.040 Bye.
01:00:45.860 Bye.
01:00:46.180 Bye.
01:00:54.700 Bye.