Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1174 ｜ The Best Argument Against Jesus’ Resurrection — and How to Respond ｜ Guest： Dr. Sean McDowell

00:00:00.760 What is the best argument against the resurrection, and how do we as Christians respond to it?

00:00:08.500 Today I'm talking to Dr. Sean McDowell.

00:00:11.260 He is an associate professor in the Christian Apologetics Program at Talbot School of Theology

00:00:16.420 at Biola University.

00:00:17.920 We've had him on before.

00:00:19.580 He is an incredible apologist.

00:00:21.440 He is the co-author of over 20 books, just a wealth of knowledge.

00:00:25.480 Today we will be talking about the evidence for the existence of Jesus and for the crucifixion,

00:00:31.060 for the resurrection, what all of this means theologically, what does it mean for us, and

00:00:36.520 he will also be answering some basic theological apologetics questions at the end of this episode.

00:00:42.300 You're going to love this.

00:00:43.700 Very informative.

00:00:45.280 It'll make you think and want to dig into your Bible right away, and so as we close out this

00:00:51.680 holy week and celebrate Good Friday tomorrow, I hope that what is told to you here and what

00:00:57.720 is taught to you here from Sean McDowell truly does edify you.

00:01:01.280 This episode is brought to you by our friends at GoToRanchers.

00:01:04.100 Go to GoToRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:01:06.080 That's GoToRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:01:17.380 Sean, thanks so much for taking the time to join us today.

00:01:20.420 I really appreciate it.

00:01:22.420 Oh, you bet.

00:01:23.180 Good to be back.

00:01:24.000 Yes.

00:01:24.440 Okay, we've got a lot to talk about.

00:01:26.300 Because it is Holy Week, the week before Easter, I thought we would focus on Jesus' death 0.86

00:01:33.540 and resurrection.

00:01:34.820 There will be a lot of things we could talk about surrounding that.

00:01:38.500 But, I mean, maybe you could say that this is not a new question or new doubts that people

00:01:43.920 have, but I still see people asking questions about the validity of the resurrection and if it's

00:01:50.880 necessary to really believe this.

00:01:54.040 Recently, you've seen a lot of prominent figures say that they believe in Jesus or they believe

00:01:59.400 in cultural Christianity like Richard Dawkins or they believe in the example of Christ,

00:02:04.020 but it's the resurrection they could just never believe.

00:02:06.820 So, I'll just start with that and see what you think about it.

00:02:10.740 This is somewhat new in our cultural moment to have people like Dawkins and Jonathan Rauch

00:02:18.380 and other atheists and non-believers talk about the importance of Christianity, but the idea

00:02:24.180 of separating the teachings of Jesus and the value of Christianity from the resurrection and the truth

00:02:31.780 is not a new idea.

00:02:33.420 This is classical liberal theology and it's the difference between the historic Christian faith

00:02:38.780 and liberal theology, which essentially teaches a different gospel.

00:02:44.120 I think the main reason why is you go back to 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and Paul says,

00:02:49.020 I pass on to you, Christians in Corinth, what was first passed on to me, what was earlier passed

00:02:53.660 on to me, what is of most importance? Jesus died, was buried according to scriptures, rose on the third

00:02:59.740 day, paid for our sins and appeared to the 500, to Paul, to Peter, James, etc. And then he says in

00:03:07.460 verses 14 and 17, if Jesus is not risen, our faith is worthless, it's in vain, we are misrepresenting

00:03:15.000 God and we're still in our sins. So, Paul ties the value of the teachings of Christ to whether or not

00:03:24.140 he's historically risen from the grave. And we see the same thing in the life of Jesus when he's asked,

00:03:30.800 give us a sign in John chapter 2. What does he say? Of course, in other settings, he says the sign of

00:03:36.220 Jonah. But in John 2, he says, I will destroy this temple, raise it up on the third day. His sign that

00:03:44.760 his identity rests upon is the historical resurrection. So, I'm glad from a cultural perspective that people

00:03:53.320 are not railing against Christianity like they used to in the past and they see the value of it culturally

00:03:59.040 speaking. But let us not think we can have a Christianity apart from the life, death, and burial of 1.00

00:04:06.000 Jesus. Jesus would have had none of that. Yeah. You know, I'm still surprised when I see people say

00:04:12.780 Jesus wasn't real. Jesus was made up. I just got a comment on Acts the other day when I said something

00:04:18.500 about Jesus and the response was, but Jesus wasn't real. I thought that we basically all agreed that

00:04:23.600 Jesus at least was a real person. Even if someone denied his divinity, denied the resurrection, I thought

00:04:30.440 that everyone understood that there was pretty ample evidence that this person named Jesus really

00:04:35.500 existed. So, what would you say? If someone earnestly wanted to know, what is evidence that

00:04:40.740 Jesus was even real? What would you say? Well, the first thing I would say is, I'm an academic. Yes,

00:04:48.220 I'm an apologist. So, I'm not supposed to overstate things. But the idea that Jesus didn't exist is

00:04:54.060 ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I mean, even Bart Ehrman, one of the leading atheists of our day, 0.99

00:04:59.640 wrote a whole book about the idea that Jesus didn't exist. I think he said this idea doesn't

00:05:04.720 emerge until like the 17th century. And he calls it a myth. And the reason is we just have too many

00:05:10.820 sources, whether it's Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, independent books, historical accounts. We have

00:05:16.680 Acts. We have the writings of Paul. We have the writings of Peter. We have the rest of the New

00:05:21.060 Testament. We have early church fathers who assume that Jesus existed, those who received the baton, 0.98

00:05:28.600 so to speak, from the gospel writers themselves. And then we have Josephus in the 90s, like,

00:05:34.940 you know, three decades after the deaths of Peter and Paul, talking about the existence and death of

00:05:41.100 Jesus, by the way. We have a Roman writer, early 2nd century. And even the critics of Christianity,

00:05:47.900 when you get into the 2nd century and the 3rd, like Celsus and others, they never challenged the

00:05:52.780 existence of Jesus. They say he was illegitimate. There's contradictions in the Bible. They raise

00:05:57.720 other objections. So the idea that Jesus didn't exist is just silly, and it's ridiculous. 0.99

00:06:03.900 What about those that say, okay, yeah, Jesus existed, but there were a lot of revolutionaries 0.88

00:06:08.440 in that time who, you know, who challenged the authority of Rome, or maybe even said that they were

00:06:14.920 the Messiah. And Jesus, he just happened to gain traction. It's kind of all a coincidence, and he

00:06:21.520 died. And that was the end of it. And he's really not special, because other people were just like

00:06:27.560 him. What do we say to that? What I would say is, wow, that's an interesting hypothesis. What evidence

00:06:34.500 do you have that that hypothesis is actually true? I mean, when people say things like that,

00:06:39.920 they're going to have to defend it. And then I'm going to say, all right, let's imagine you're

00:06:44.560 right. Why do we have so many people who believe that Jesus was the Son of God, believe that he did

00:06:52.180 miracles, and believe that he rose on the 3rd day? I mean, the vast majority of scholars, this comes

00:06:57.520 from Gary Habermas' research. He's published recently in his book, On the Resurrection, Volume 1.

00:07:02.960 He says the vast majority of scholars, like 90% plus, believe that the disciples at least report that

00:07:09.100 they had experiences of the risen Jesus that they believed were real, like they're reporting what

00:07:16.100 they think are real experiences. So if Jesus didn't say and do these things, how do we account for the

00:07:22.380 disciples' beliefs? But then how do we get James, the brother of Jesus? And according to Mark 3 and

00:07:27.540 John 7, the brothers of Jesus were not believers in him during his lifetime. And then James is martyred

00:07:34.120 in AD 62, the head of the church in Jerusalem. How do you get Paul to believe this? And the vast majority 0.94

00:07:41.120 of scholars believe that Paul had an experience that he believed was of the risen Jesus. So if we only had

00:07:48.660 one account, then maybe we could explain this away. But we have so many different accounts that line up on

00:07:55.340 the big details. And you have the disciples and the apostles and James willing to suffer and die for the belief

00:08:02.180 that they'd seen there is in Jesus. It's not enough to just say, well, maybe he was like some other

00:08:07.680 Messiah and passed away. And the largest religion in the world just took off from that. You're going to 0.90

00:08:13.040 need a better explanation.

00:08:14.920 And what about the crucifixion? I mean, obviously, people know if they agree that Jesus lived, they know

00:08:22.200 that he died. But the entire crucifixion thing, him dying on a cross, the mob choosing him to be

00:08:30.120 crucified over Barabbas, Pontius Pilate, the two criminals on either side of them. Is that not

00:08:37.260 just all kind of a myth that Christians have put together to, you know, kind of finish their 0.94

00:08:44.160 narrative that he was this sacrificial lamb? So the claim that Jesus wasn't crucified is about up there

00:08:54.020 as being as really contra what we know historically speaking, and I would argue ridiculous, with the

00:09:00.300 claim that Jesus didn't exist. The evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus is virtually overwhelming.

00:09:09.340 Now, why? Well, for one, again, we have multiple early sources. We have 1 Corinthians chapter 15,

00:09:17.600 which arguably that creed embedded within Corinthians could be dated within three to five years of the

00:09:23.080 death of Jesus. We have the other New Testament books. We have the Gospels. We have Acts. Again, we have

00:09:29.240 the early church fathers who the apostles, some of them knew, and they're writing at the end of the first

00:09:34.640 century into the second century, affirming the crucifixion of Jesus. Again, we also have Josephus, a Jew, 0.58

00:09:42.400 and Tacitus, a Roman, early second century, Josephus in the 90s, who not only affirmed that Jesus lived,

00:09:47.800 but affirmed that he was crucified. Now, the other piece that I would add to this is it's also not the

00:09:54.900 kind of thing that early Christians would invent if they're trying to build a movement. So crucifixion 0.83

00:10:02.860 was the most shameful, dishonorable, humiliating, painful death imaginable. Deuteronomy says if you're

00:10:12.040 hung on a tree, you're cursed. You were shamed publicly, brought shame on your faith, brought shame

00:10:18.740 on your country. It was the ultimate worst death imaginable. So if the apostles are inventing a faith 0.55

00:10:27.160 and they're trying to get people to follow it, a crucifixion is the least likely death that they

00:10:34.240 would give rather than dishonorable. They would invent an honorable death, at least far more likely.

00:10:40.060 So you add that theological point to the historical point. I think the only people that really deny

00:10:45.900 the crucifixion of Jesus would be mythicists, which are a handful, you can count them on one,

00:10:50.820 maybe two hands who deny that Jesus existed, and Muslims, which in Surah 4, and of course the Quran's 0.78

00:10:57.440 not written until roughly seven centuries or so after the time of Jesus, Surah 4 denies the

00:11:04.080 crucifixion. Not arguing, unless somebody's already committed to that being the word of God or

00:11:09.440 historical, and I don't think there's good independent reason to take it as being so,

00:11:14.620 you would never reject the crucifixion of Jesus. It's just too firmly established.

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00:12:46.660 What would you say if you were to play devil's advocate, which I know you do. I like to do too.

00:12:52.480 I like to understand the other side's argument and respond to that. So what would you say is the

00:12:56.440 best argument against the resurrection of Jesus, if there is a logical argument out there, and how

00:13:04.260 would you respond to it? Yeah, that's an interesting question, Allie. I would say if you go back to like

00:13:10.840 the 18th and 19th centuries, early into the 20th century, it was kind of the heyday of these

00:13:16.800 naturalistic hypotheses. So people would say Jesus was just a legend, or he went to the wrong tomb,

00:13:23.360 or he didn't really die on the cross, or there were hallucinations. And I think there's significant

00:13:29.620 historical problems with all of those. Like if you take hallucinations, you say, okay, maybe the

00:13:35.060 apostles had hallucinations, but you still have to account for James and Paul. And that doesn't explain

00:13:39.880 the empty tomb. Like going to the wrong tomb isn't going to get you appearances, which is what convinces

00:13:46.500 the apostles that is true, not just an empty tomb. But in the 21st century, really the main objection

00:13:54.000 is more methodological than it actually is against the facts tied to the person of Jesus. So for me,

00:14:02.440 I'd probably just say, you know, we're dealing with an event 2000 years ago. You know, we have fake news

00:14:08.160 today. How much confidence can we have in a miracle claim from 2000 years ago? And especially because

00:14:15.440 it's such an extraordinary claim, it's often said, we're going to need extraordinary evidence. I think

00:14:22.000 if I was going to challenge it, I would probably take that route. But I think we can put the standard

00:14:27.860 too low. And sometimes Christians can just be gullible and believe anything that supports our 0.96

00:14:31.840 faith. We can also put the standard too high. Whereas I think extraordinary claims require

00:14:38.620 sufficient evidence. Extraordinary claims require adequate evidence. There's a lot of extraordinary

00:14:45.460 things that have happened in the past and extraordinary things that happen today. So I think

00:14:51.700 if we use the means of good historical analysis and we don't rule out the supernatural from the beginning

00:15:00.360 and we follow the evidence where it leads, I think we have good solid evidence to conclude

00:15:07.440 that Jesus has risen from the grave. Hmm. Okay. What about those who say, now we're moving into the

00:15:14.200 Christian camp, or maybe I've seen skeptics say this too, that, okay, even just aside from the 0.98

00:15:20.900 resurrection, whether you accept it or not, Easter isn't about the resurrection. Easter is this pagan 0.94

00:15:28.200 celebration of Ishtar, the fertility goddess, and Christians should just be celebrating Passover. 1.00

00:15:34.960 Jesus was a Jew who celebrated Passover. And so why are we even taking part in this pagan ritual? Some 0.95

00:15:43.700 might use that to discount Christianity altogether. Some Christians might do it, just maybe they're 0.94

00:15:49.000 well-meaning. But what would you say to that? I would say one thing. I would say, look, if somebody

00:15:55.520 is a Christian and they think that there's pagan roots to Christmas or there's pagan roots to Easter

00:16:01.840 and your conscience doesn't make you feel comfortable celebrating it in that way, then don't call it

00:16:09.260 Easter. You know, don't do the kind of wrappings that we don't find in the Bible like a Christmas

00:16:15.200 tree. I'd say that's totally fine. But for me, Christianity does not have pagan roots. It has Jewish

00:16:23.900 roots. We go back. I mean, I've been reading the gospel of John every day for a while. I've just been

00:16:29.760 finding time to read all of it. And this is true for all the gospels. Christianity has Jewish roots.

00:16:37.560 Jesus points towards Old Testament prophecy about him being the Messiah, about him being one with God,

00:16:45.620 understood as the God of the Old Testament, about fulfilling prophecies in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22

00:16:51.660 and Zechariah 9. So I think when we look at the birth of Jesus, we look at the death of Jesus, we look at the

00:16:58.180 Christian movement. It was really the early 1900s that people would say it had pagan roots and they looked for

00:17:05.780 these parallels in like other pagan kind of mystery religions of the time and then try to say, look, Christianity

00:17:14.220 borrowed from these. But what we've found is that actually the similarities are completely exaggerated.

00:17:22.120 And second, any of the similarities that really map on come after Christianity. So if anything,

00:17:27.280 these pagan mystery religions borrowed more from Christianity than Christianity did from the pagan

00:17:33.460 mystery religions. Personally, I don't have a problem having a Christmas tree and wrappings,

00:17:38.920 even if that's not laid out in the scriptures, because I teach my kids exactly what Christmas is

00:17:44.620 and why. I don't have a problem with some of the cultural calling it Easter, but I just always remind

00:17:50.720 my kids, here's what we're practicing. Here's why. Here's what the gospels teach. And here's just stuff

00:17:57.320 we find within our culture. But ultimately, I'll leave that up to the conscience of your viewers.

00:18:02.760 What about, I've seen this argument frequently over the past couple of years, that really Christians 0.98

00:18:09.200 should be celebrating all Jewish holidays and that whether, you know, they believe in celebrating

00:18:16.320 Christmas, Easter or not, but that we should really be following the Jewish calendar, following 0.93

00:18:21.060 the example of Jesus. Like, do you think Christians are bound by that?

00:18:24.680 I wouldn't say that we're bound by that, to follow all of the Jewish rituals, because clearly those

00:18:33.080 are types and foreshadows pointing towards the person of Jesus. So I think we can make one of two

00:18:40.580 mistakes, Allie. I think one mistake would be to say, to miss what Christ did on the cross and how he

00:18:47.100 freed us from the law and has given us a new covenant. The other mistake, and I think the church is

00:18:54.520 probably more guilty of this than still practicing the rituals, is to completely divorce ourselves from

00:19:01.780 our Jewish roots. And this has damage in a lot of ways. Number one, I think it alienates a lot of

00:19:08.500 Jews feeling like if I become a Christian, then I have to completely seize who I think my identity is

00:19:15.860 as a Jew. I think it also guts us as Christians from the rich history of the Old Testament that helps

00:19:23.100 kind of formulate and decide who we are. So we have some liberty. Our salvation and relationship

00:19:30.180 with God is not defined by them. But so many of these rituals were given to the nation of Israel

00:19:36.660 to make them holy and set apart as reminders of who God was and who God is. And I think when we bring

00:19:47.040 those and practice many of those today, and we could talk about the particulars like Passover is a big one

00:19:51.540 that comes up. I think when we practice these, knowing how they're fulfilled in Christ, they

00:19:57.840 actually help us better understand who Christ is because he fulfills the Old Testament, but also

00:20:04.060 realize we're not bound by this. We're actually set free in terms of who Christ is. Yeah, I agree.

00:20:10.540 Having a knowledge of them, especially as something like Passover, and knowing that we actually have,

00:20:16.500 as you said, the fulfillment of these things, that we are not celebrating these holidays in

00:20:21.660 anticipation for the Messiah to one day come, as the Jews are, but that we are celebrating them as

00:20:29.040 realizing that Jesus is the culmination. He is the fulfillment of all of those things. So

00:20:33.660 I think that at the very least, as you said, knowing our Jewish roots and knowing the Jewish holidays and

00:20:39.840 what's behind them and what is being celebrated and honored could add a lot of fullness and richness to

00:20:45.400 our faith. Another pause to remind you guys to sign up for Share the Arrows. Get your tickets today.

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00:22:17.640 Specifically about Easter, kind of going back to some questions that people sent in about why

00:22:23.680 Jesus did certain things, said certain things leading up to the crucifixion, even what he said

00:22:29.420 on the cross. So when Jesus is in the garden and he is praying and he is in pain, I mean,

00:22:38.440 that's just a poignant passage. That's a different side of Jesus than we have seen before. So

00:22:44.140 vulnerable, so human-like when he's praying that the Father would let this cup of suffering

00:22:49.600 pass from him. Can you kind of like break down that passage? Why do we read that? Why do we need

00:22:56.300 to know that? And what exactly does this mean? This is a great question. And the first thing I

00:23:03.400 would say is this, you're asking this passage because it raises troubling questions. Like,

00:23:09.100 why is Jesus asking this cup to be taken away from me when we know that he knows it's coming

00:23:16.060 and he's supposed to fulfill it? So one thing this tells us is these words were not invented.

00:23:22.260 These, this historically goes back to Jesus because the early church would not have invented

00:23:28.360 these like difficult passages, put them in the mouth of Jesus for people like us later to be like,

00:23:34.880 uh, I'm not sure I totally get it. So this gets us back to the historical Jesus, which tells us he

00:23:39.920 suffered. And I think that's also another piece of circumstantial evidence for his crucifixion.

00:23:45.900 What we have in Jesus consistently is a few things. Number one, he has submitted himself

00:23:52.060 fully to the Father. I mean, just read the Gospel of John, even though the story you're sharing is

00:23:57.720 not in the Gospel of John, he over and over again is saying, I do what the Father requires.

00:24:03.680 My authority comes from above. So we see the sense that Jesus is one with God in essence.

00:24:10.120 And John again, makes it clear that he was God and was with God. So he's one in purpose with the

00:24:17.180 Father and he's one in essence with the Father, but because he takes on human flesh and is like us

00:24:25.180 in every way, Hebrews two and Hebrews four points towards he suffers and he gets tired and he gets

00:24:33.180 hungry and he's tempted. So somehow in this person of Jesus, we have this mystery where he's God

00:24:39.860 and he knows everything. But he also is like pleading out to the Father to take this cup away

00:24:45.980 from him. So I think in some ways, this passage is just revealing the level of suffering that Jesus

00:24:53.340 went through. Now, a lot of people don't really realize this, but it's almost like Jesus met his

00:25:00.060 resolve in the garden. It's where he's wrestling with God. He realizes what's at stake. And then once he

00:25:07.060 prays this prayer to God related to the cup, his Father, it's like he has this confidence,

00:25:13.380 so to speak, that takes him all the way through the crucifixion until the end. So I think we just

00:25:20.120 see this human side of Jesus that in one sense, his mind knows he needs to do it. He needs to be

00:25:27.840 obedient to the Father and he will, but everything inside of him is like, why do I have to go through

00:25:34.460 this God? And he's just expressing this feeling and desire of his heart. So in some sense, we see

00:25:40.460 the human side of Jesus suffering. We can relate to it. But we also, if we read the larger passages

00:25:45.780 around it, see the clear divinity of Jesus and both are at play. I'm guessing this is a similar

00:25:54.000 principle at play when Jesus is actually on the cross and he says, my God, my God, why have you

00:26:00.160 forsaken me? I mean, for the same reasons that you're articulating, it can be very hard to understand

00:26:05.160 that. Okay, Jesus is fully God. Is there a real separation going on there? How do we reconcile

00:26:11.560 that with our knowledge of the Trinity? So what is happening in this moment?

00:26:17.300 Such a good question. And again, as the point before, these words are historical. The early

00:26:23.600 church did not invent these words, put them on the lips of Jesus as the last words that he speaks

00:26:30.020 in Mark and then raise all these difficult theological questions. So from a purely historical

00:26:35.700 standpoint, we have about as much confidence as you could have that Jesus spoke these words. Now,

00:26:41.760 this is in Mark 1534. But then if you just go to 1539, you have this Roman centurion who's watching

00:26:52.220 this five verses later. And what does he say? He says, truly, this man is the son of God.

00:27:00.340 So within five verses, you have Jesus crying out saying, Father, why have you abandoned me?

00:27:07.600 And this soldier's watching this. And then within a few verses, even the soldier sees, I think this is

00:27:13.320 the climax of the book of Mark. Even the soldier sees that there's something supernatural and arguably

00:27:19.140 divine about him at the same time. The question is, how do we hold these two in tension? Now that

00:27:26.100 verse, Father, Father, why, or God, God, why have you forsaken me? That's from a Psalm David wrote in

00:27:31.980 Psalm 22.1. And if you read that Psalm, a few things stand out about it. Number one, David's like,

00:27:38.500 God, why have you abandoned me? And it's this harrowing sense that David, who's one of the chosen,

00:27:44.580 precursors to the Messiah, chosen king, is saying to God, why have you abandoned me?

00:27:52.540 But you also have in that passage, there's a few other messianic references about how they cast his

00:27:58.100 garment as lots. Also in Psalm 22 is the sense of where they pierce my hands, which is a foreshadowing

00:28:07.640 of the crucifixion. So I think Jesus cited this in part because he's saying on the cross, basically

00:28:15.820 when it's finished, I am fulfilling the Old Testament and what it said about me. David suffered.

00:28:23.780 I suffer even more because I'm greater than David. So not only is this a messianic Psalm,

00:28:30.280 it also makes clear that David was going to feel this sense of abandonment, but not actually be

00:28:38.160 abandoned. He said, I felt like God abandoned me and left me alone, but God has and will triumphally

00:28:44.720 seen that in the past. So in some ways, Jesus is doing the same thing. He's saying as David felt

00:28:51.480 abandoned and God was still with him and working towards the good, this is how I feel abandoned and

00:28:59.180 God is going to work it for good. But with that said, it's really important that we don't downplay

00:29:04.780 just the human pain and agony that Jesus was going through. We typically think about the physical pain

00:29:12.960 on the cross as being the worst, and that was unimaginable. But I think the worst part is the

00:29:19.620 greatest injustice, that the only person who's ever lived who didn't sin, I mean, Jesus says to the

00:29:26.600 religious leaders in John, he's like, who of you can convict me of sin? The only sinless person

00:29:32.740 who's ever lived, taking on the sin of the world, that way Jesus is also crying out, expressing that

00:29:42.080 distress and that pain before the Father.

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00:31:27.160 Why do you think the crowd chose Jesus to be crucified over Barabbas? I'm curious what you believe

00:31:34.840 that says about the particular people at that time and what that might tell us about human sinful

00:31:41.360 nature in general. That's really hard to know for sure, because at least when you read John,

00:31:48.180 you get the impression that Pilate is trying to get an excuse to get out of this. He sees that Jesus is,

00:31:54.760 he's like, I find no guilt in this man. I've had him whipped. Like, he's trying to do everything 0.77

00:32:00.040 to please the crowd, and they're not pleased. Now, how big the crowd was, exactly how many of them

00:32:07.160 wanted Jesus crucified, that's hard to say. I mean, again, in John, you have the sense of some

00:32:13.720 of the religious leaders at that time believed in Jesus and followed him, but some did not.

00:32:20.460 It starts as early as John 5 when Jesus heals the man at the pool of Bethesda on the Sabbath,

00:32:28.300 claiming the authority of God, that they start planning to kill him. So I think it probably was

00:32:35.460 certain religious leaders of that time with power who felt threatened by Jesus, and Jesus makes it

00:32:43.560 clear that they did not know the Father. They thought they did, but they did not know the Father.

00:32:48.140 If they knew the Father, they would listen to him because the Father and Moses and the scriptures

00:32:53.360 and the miracles all point towards that. So I think they were spiritually blind. They felt

00:32:59.840 threatened by the power of Jesus and thought that this would be the end of Jesus, which of course

00:33:05.820 is the greatest irony in human history. About as ironic as when Pilate says to Jesus, he says something

00:33:13.760 to the effect of, you won't talk to me? Don't you not have power to crucify you or not? And Jesus is

00:33:18.640 like, you have no authority over me. This crowd and Pilate thought this was going to be the end of it.

00:33:25.820 But ironically, it was just the beginning.

00:33:29.500 Yeah. Gosh, when you said blindness, it reminded me of what I was reading this morning in John 9 when

00:33:35.560 Jesus healed the blind man and the Pharisees. They are very confused about this. Sometimes you don't know

00:33:42.920 if the Pharisees are really confused or if they're trying to trap Jesus. I guess usually it's the

00:33:47.740 latter, but they're talking to this blind man trying to figure out, okay, who healed you? What

00:33:53.520 do you think about him? Do you think that this man is a sinner? He healed you on the Sabbath. And it's

00:33:59.060 just, it's clear they are spiritually hardened and they can't see Jesus for who he is and what he's

00:34:07.360 doing. They can't even say unapologetically, wow, this is a great thing that this man has been

00:34:13.760 healed. They're more concerned with what Jesus is really up to. And it seems like that theme is

00:34:19.080 carried through even to the moment that we're talking about as they are delivering him over to

00:34:24.220 be crucified. And it's easy to look at that and say, how could they do that? He never did anything

00:34:29.360 wrong. I mean, truly a sheep led to the slaughter, but it says a lot about the hardness of our hearts.

00:34:35.180 I think we can all see parts of ourselves in those who are deriding Jesus, who are mocking Jesus,

00:34:41.700 who betrayed Jesus, that we think we know better and not really understanding the spirit of God's

00:34:49.960 commands, even if we do know the letter of the law. And so it's very humbling to see Jesus's

00:34:56.160 interactions with the holiest and most knowledgeable people at the time. He really does flip over the

00:35:03.440 wisdom of the world and makes it look foolish. And it's just a good check for us that, okay, 0.96

00:35:09.660 like, are we following the wisdom of God? Are we relying on our own smarts, our own knowledge, our

00:35:15.920 own power?

00:35:18.780 You know, what's amazing about that story is, again, I've just been reading through John,

00:35:22.580 so it's so fresh in my mind, is there's so many people who know what Jesus did and know who he is,

00:35:30.060 but they're afraid to speak up. So this blind man in John 9 you're talking about was blind from the 0.74

00:35:37.480 moment that he was born. He had never seen. And they come to him and ask him, he's like,

00:35:43.600 this man, Jesus healed us. Well, they don't want to accept that. So they go to his parents and his

00:35:49.420 parents, and they ask his parents, the Pharisees do, is this your son? Is he healed by Jesus? And it says

00:35:56.200 kind of in parentheses, which means it's the author of John giving his commentary,

00:36:00.880 that believing in following Jesus, you'd be kicked out of the synagogue. So out of fear,

00:36:06.460 their parents, rather than saying, I mean, their son who had never seen, he was 38 years old,

00:36:12.420 I think, if I remember, or maybe that was the, maybe that was the invalid in John 5, but his whole

00:36:19.000 life he had not seen. You'd think his parents would be so thrilled, they'd say, my son was blind,

00:36:24.760 and now he sees. But out of fear to the religious leaders, they just say, well, go ask him, he can

00:36:30.700 talk. And I look at that, I'm like, wow, am I speaking up on what's true, even if it costs me

00:36:37.440 something? So you're right, we have to do a check on spiritual blindness. But I think we have to ask

00:36:43.260 ourselves, who do I fear? Do I fear God? Or do I fear men? And we see this example of Jesus. He says,

00:36:52.020 you have no power over me. I've already defeated death. I've already conquered this world. Are we

00:36:59.280 going to live in that confidence? Man, that convicts me every day, Allie, because I want to be more and

00:37:05.860 more bold to speak the truth, like that blind man who's like, all I know is I was blind, but now I

00:37:13.100 see. You know, it's funny that you talk about his parents, because that was the first time that

00:37:18.620 stuck out to me today. I was actually listening to it in the car. And when I heard that part, I was

00:37:24.220 like, they literally just threw their kid under the bus. They were like, we don't, we don't want to say

00:37:28.920 who did it. We don't want to say who healed him. We'll let our son, who has been disabled his whole 0.99

00:37:33.540 life, we'll let him take the fall for it. If he wants to say it was Jesus, then, you know, he can do

00:37:39.520 that. We're not going to. And I love what you said about being convicted about our own boldness. I

00:37:45.340 would love to think that I would never throw my own children under the bus, that I would never be

00:37:49.120 so scared of someone that I'd be afraid to stand up for what is true for the sake of my kids. But

00:37:54.780 whatever it is, it's so easy for us to be intimidated by the opinions of others or what they can

00:38:00.600 do to us that we're just, we won't say what is true. So that's a really good point.

00:38:05.940 Um, okay. Theologically, explain to us the significance of Jesus's death and resurrection.

00:38:15.800 Obviously, you know, we know that this is Christianity 101. This is what it rests on,

00:38:20.820 but a lot of people listening might not know. So we've gone through how we know it actually

00:38:26.900 happened, how we know it's true, but I want to hear you articulate why it matters.

00:38:31.700 You know, the irony in this question, Allie, is that we call it Good Friday. I mean, how many

00:38:39.380 people just stop and say, why do we call a day good for which our founder that we put faith in

00:38:47.360 was mocked and spitted on and stripped naked and humiliated and crucified publicly and shamed?

00:38:57.160 We don't celebrate the day that JFK or Abraham Lincoln or anybody else that we revere was put

00:39:05.120 to death. Well, the difference with Jesus is there was something good about his death. And the question

00:39:13.040 is, what was it? Well, Jesus understands himself and so do the gospels as fulfilling the Old Testament.

00:39:20.580 So if you go back to John 1, verse 29, and then it says it again in the 30s, when John the Baptist sees

00:39:28.140 Jesus coming, what does he say? He says, behold the Lamb of God. Meaning he's referring back to the 0.93

00:39:35.860 Passover, which we talked about earlier, where a spotless lamb was killed before the 10th plague,

00:39:42.700 where the Israelites are in Egypt, and that its blood was put in the doorstep. And then the angel of God

00:39:49.820 would pass over those houses and spare the life of the oldest son. So Jesus sees himself, John the Baptist

00:40:03.220 sees himself, in this Old Testament motif, that life is spared and saved through death of a lamb. Now in the

00:40:13.320 Old Testament, these animals were kind of substitutes, their life. I mean, it says in Leviticus chapter 17, 0.96

00:40:19.140 that it's like, you know, through the bloodshed that we are, we have atonement with God. Now we're not

00:40:25.640 explaining why, but somehow through death, we're able to be in right relationship with God. Now animals

00:40:35.260 did that in the Old Testament. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. And the reason we don't have to keep

00:40:41.020 sacrificing is because Jesus is truly human. He represents us, but he's also truly God. He's never

00:40:49.100 sinned. So his sacrifice, you might say, is infinite to cover any sin that we do, acts as our substitute

00:40:58.440 for us. So it's Good Friday, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, Jesus died for our sins. So in some,

00:41:10.260 Jesus covers first, Jesus covers first the wrath of God, who, because God is just, needs a payment for sin.

00:41:18.220 But he also covers our duty to God in his death on the cross. Now the reason the resurrection is

00:41:26.100 important is because it's God stamped saying death doesn't have the last word. Yes, it's finished. Sin has

00:41:33.600 been paid for. We have been forgiven. Jesus conquers the grave. And it's like, it ratifies that death

00:41:42.040 with God's divine approval and tells us that this is real, supernaturally speaking, our sins are

00:41:49.820 forgiven. And the last thing, Allie, that I would say is this is what separates Christianity from every 0.97

00:41:54.360 other faith system. We can't earn God's approval by doing some kind of work. Jesus paid our debt on the

00:42:04.320 cross. We contribute nothing to our own forgiveness and standing before God, except a humble acceptance

00:42:13.720 of what Christ has done. I think when we realize the debt that he paid, all that can do is humble us

00:42:21.300 before God, and then live differently, because we have actually been forgiving and can stand in relationship

00:42:29.760 with God.

00:42:31.640 Amen. Yes, I remember, I don't remember who originally said this, maybe, maybe you know, but I think I heard it in

00:42:38.700 high school, and it just clicked. So much of what you're saying is encapsulated in this picture that there are so

00:42:44.220 many religions that can tell you how to get to God. And some people will stop there. You know, Buddhism can tell you

00:42:49.700 how to get to God. Islam, Judaism, all of these religions can tell you the steps that you have to

00:42:55.880 take, the rules that you have to follow to find that divine, fulfilling life. But the difference in

00:43:04.220 those religions and Christianity is that Christianity actually doesn't give that message at all.

00:43:09.660 Christianity is not saying, here's what you can do to get to God. Here's how you climb the mountain to

00:43:14.820 get to God. It's actually saying, you can't. You can't do that. You can't climb up the mountain. You

00:43:19.620 cannot get to God. You are completely powerless to do that. So God had to come down the mountain to

00:43:26.260 rescue you. And I love what you said, that we contribute nothing to our forgiveness. That is the

00:43:32.260 distinctive, I think, between Christianity and all the other faiths. It's not about rules to follow so

00:43:38.960 that you will gain salvation. Yes, there are commands that we abide by because we have been saved and love

00:43:44.280 God, but we cannot clean ourselves up for God. That is a freeing, kind of liberating good news that no

00:43:53.020 other religion has. It's just too much of a generalization and not true to say all these

00:43:58.820 different religions are basically the same. They're not. Christianity is the one that is distinct 1.00

00:44:03.940 because our gospel is different than all the others. Amen. You remind me of a story probably 15 or 20

00:44:11.920 years ago. I was speaking to an atheist group at Berkeley, and I was making the case that Christianity

00:44:16.640 is unique for four reasons. And one of them is God's grace, that salvation is a free gift. And these

00:44:24.280 were students, so I kind of thought free would like land with them, you know, students paying for their

00:44:29.300 education, you don't have a lot of money. And the student afterwards, I'll never forget, he goes,

00:44:33.460 he actually said it's a way, he goes, Sean, your arguments are so bad. If I didn't know any

00:44:38.020 differently, I'd think you were stoned on crack. He actually said it like that to me. I'm like, okay.

00:44:42.860 He goes, in Buddhism, there's a certain kind of gift and grace that is given to people on their journey.

00:44:51.180 And he goes, so you find grace in other faiths. And interestingly, I was in a doctoral class

00:44:57.240 on Buddhism at that time. And so I knew it. I said, you're right. Within Buddhism, certain forms

00:45:04.480 of Buddhism, there are gods that give some grace for somebody on their journey. But it's different

00:45:11.160 in saying you have to do certain actions and earn your way to salvation, and you get little pockets

00:45:16.920 of grace along the way. And the entire thing is a free gift. That's different. And that's unique

00:45:25.040 to Christianity. And that's why, you know, Paul says, he talks about grace is a free gift. This

00:45:30.920 is not from yourselves. It is a gift from God. So no one can boast. All I can tell you, Ali,

00:45:40.120 is the older I get, the more I'm aware of just how profoundly I fall short of this, how much I need

00:45:46.900 God. And I'm just thankful for his grace. You know, I think there is something biblical. It might

00:45:54.540 have been a little bit crass, but him saying that your theological arguments sound like you're high

00:46:00.560 on crack or stoned on crack. You know, I mean, 1 Corinthians 1 makes really clear that like the

00:46:06.660 wisdom of God sounds like foolishness to the wise of the world, and that he turns that on his head.

00:46:13.680 And that is routinely what Jesus did, as we were talking about earlier, with some of the smartest,

00:46:18.480 most knowledgeable religious leaders. They thought that he sounded like he was crazy.

00:46:22.160 Um, I would, I would love to know where that student is today. And if there is a seed that

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00:47:51.580 Okay, I would love to talk about just maybe kind of rapid fire with the little time that we have

00:47:57.800 left, just some basic theological questions. And we got some really good questions in from my listeners,

00:48:04.380 or really maybe apologetics, I guess they go hand in hand. But they reminded me of some questions,

00:48:09.200 actually, that my five, almost six-year-old has been asking me. And as you know, at this age,

00:48:15.220 kids can become really good theologians. And they ask questions that you're like,

00:48:20.120 that's a really good question. There are grownups that are still asking and debating things like

00:48:24.300 this. So we were reading, for example, which we've done many, many times, but we were reading

00:48:29.040 in her kid's Bible, the story of the Garden of Eden, of creation and the fall. And she understands

00:48:36.340 that sin and sadness and sickness came from all of that. And she's really sad about that. She's

00:48:41.600 genuinely really, really sad about that and wishes it did not happen. And she asked me,

00:48:47.380 why did God make the serpent? Why did God put him there? And I'm like, yeah, that's something that

00:48:53.760 people have been debating for a long time. And I don't know that I have the clear-cut answer on that

00:49:00.560 exactly. But what would you say to that really good question?

00:49:05.440 Well, first off, I'd say to your five or six-year-old, as I say to my kids, I go,

00:49:09.560 what a great question. I love that you're using your mind. Keep the questions coming.

00:49:16.200 Second, I would say, what do you think? I mean, seriously, I ask kids questions all the time. I

00:49:22.700 want to teach them how to think. I want to teach them how to relate and discuss these topics

00:49:27.180 rather than just giving them an answer. Third, I would say, you know, the Bible doesn't directly

00:49:33.240 tell us. This serpent just shows up. We don't know where the serpent comes from. Maybe later in

00:49:39.920 Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14, we possibly get an explanation, but we really don't know. Can we

00:49:46.640 trust God when we don't know? But here's what we do know. Somehow God was able to use this serpent

00:49:53.900 that seem to have free will and choose to rebel from God, just like we have free will and we rebel

00:50:01.340 from God. Just as God can still use our lives, even though we don't always choose good, and some

00:50:08.480 is consistently choose bad. I think God can still use the serpent in and to bring his ultimate good.

00:50:16.440 To a five-year-old, that's probably where I would leave it and put it.

00:50:20.280 Yeah, I think that's, I mean, that's really good. We have some other questions from our listeners.

00:50:28.800 One question, I'm struggling with assurance of salvation. How can I know for sure that I'm saved?

00:50:36.980 Well, the first thing I would say is tell me what you mean by sure. I think we can have assurance or

00:50:42.620 confidence in salvation, but that doesn't require certainty. Doubt is not the opposite of belief,

00:50:51.000 which is why Jude says, have mercy on those who doubt. So I see a lot of people deconstruct. I know

00:50:58.600 this is a topic you've talked about, Ali, and sometimes people think, if I don't have 100% certainty,

00:51:03.020 then I don't have belief. I want to say belief is 51% in favor of something, but then how do I grow?

00:51:11.460 The bottom line in Romans 10, 9 is talk about if you confess with your lips and with your mouth that

00:51:18.160 Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. So do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you believe he's the one that

00:51:28.240 the Father sent? Do you believe that he's forgiven you for your sins? If you believe that, you're safe.

00:51:36.760 Now, somebody who says this, oftentimes in my experience, Ali, there's sometimes just deeper

00:51:41.620 hurt and questions that are going on underneath the surface. So I would encourage this person. I'd say,

00:51:47.860 look, it's natural to have questions. It's natural to have doubts. I would sit down with a pastor and try

00:51:53.700 to get to the root of where some of those doubts come from. Are they emotional? Are they spiritual?

00:51:59.680 Are they moral? And then when we can kind of address those, there's a proverb that says,

00:52:04.460 the purposes in a man's heart are deep and a person of wisdom draws it out. Oftentimes,

00:52:10.100 doubt of salvation comes from questions we have. And if it's intellectual, study apologetics. If it's

00:52:16.120 moral, repent. If it's relational, maybe you've got to heal that relationship. That's how we grow

00:52:23.380 in our confidence in the Lord. If someone is just starting out and just exploring Christianity,

00:52:32.220 what should they do first? Where should they start in the Bible? How do they find a local church? I

00:52:38.340 know that those are kind of big separate questions, but where would you tell someone to start?

00:52:43.860 I would definitely get plugged in a church right away, and I would look for an evangelical church.

00:52:49.100 Obviously, that's the tradition you and I are a part of that's going to teach that the Bible

00:52:53.020 is true and preach the scriptures from the stage. So go to a church, get involved in a small group

00:53:01.580 as quickly as you can. That's how we grow, and that's how you learn, and that's how there's

00:53:06.380 accountability. In terms of the scriptures, I just sent out a tweet earlier today, and I asked people,

00:53:13.040 I said, if you were stranded on an island and you had one Old Testament book and one New Testament

00:53:18.200 book, what would you pick? I said, I'd take Genesis and I'd take John. I'd encourage this person to

00:53:24.960 read Genesis and then read the gospel of John. Start there. For a new believer, if I could throw 1.00

00:53:31.640 one more in there, if I had a copy I'd give it to you, I'd really encourage you to read the book

00:53:35.100 more than a carpenter. My dad wrote this as a skeptic trying to disprove Christianity. He came to the 0.99

00:53:40.120 faith and it lays out who Jesus is and the most simple case that Jesus is God. The Bible is true.

00:53:46.160 He rose to the grave. We just updated it. It's so important to start one's journey in a church,

00:53:51.940 in a small group, in the scriptures, but also with the confidence that this is really true.

00:53:57.720 Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. And Sean, if people want to read you,

00:54:02.960 follow you, support you, how can they best do that?

00:54:05.560 Like you, I'm on YouTube. I really love this platform. I love having long form conversations.

00:54:11.860 So all the stuff we talked about today, evidence for the resurrection, death of Jesus, intelligent

00:54:16.740 design, moral and social issues, many of the ones that you cover, I talk about on YouTube.

00:54:22.140 My website, seanmcdowell.org, links to Instagram. I think that's where you told me last time you first

00:54:26.640 saw some of my stuff. I do a lot of short videos, just apologetics that's there. I've got a blog.

00:54:32.180 We have a separate audio podcast out of Biola that I co-host. And if anybody really loves this

00:54:38.760 stuff, Allie, I'd say come study with me at Talbot. We have a master's program in apologetics. It's

00:54:44.080 totally online. We would love to equip you to just become an apologist in your church to serve the

00:54:50.560 body of Christ. Dr. Sean McDowell, thank you so much for taking the time and happy Easter.

00:54:57.720 Thanks, Allie. Happy Resurrection Day and happy Easter.

00:55:00.880 I like it.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 17, 2025

Ep 1174 ｜ The Best Argument Against Jesus’ Resurrection — and How to Respond ｜ Guest： Dr. Sean McDowell

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