Ep 1174 ｜ The Best Argument Against Jesus’ Resurrection — and How to Respond ｜ Guest： Dr. Sean McDowell
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Summary
In this episode, we talk with Dr. Sean McDowell about the evidence for the existence of Jesus, the crucifixion, and the resurrection, and what that evidence means for us as Christians. Dr. McDowell also answers some basic theological apologetics questions.
Transcript
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What is the best argument against the resurrection, and how do we as Christians respond to it?
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He is an associate professor in the Christian Apologetics Program at Talbot School of Theology
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He is the co-author of over 20 books, just a wealth of knowledge.
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Today we will be talking about the evidence for the existence of Jesus and for the crucifixion,
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for the resurrection, what all of this means theologically, what does it mean for us, and
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he will also be answering some basic theological apologetics questions at the end of this episode.
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It'll make you think and want to dig into your Bible right away, and so as we close out this
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holy week and celebrate Good Friday tomorrow, I hope that what is told to you here and what
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is taught to you here from Sean McDowell truly does edify you.
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This episode is brought to you by our friends at GoToRanchers.
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Sean, thanks so much for taking the time to join us today.
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Because it is Holy Week, the week before Easter, I thought we would focus on Jesus' death
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There will be a lot of things we could talk about surrounding that.
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But, I mean, maybe you could say that this is not a new question or new doubts that people
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have, but I still see people asking questions about the validity of the resurrection and if it's
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Recently, you've seen a lot of prominent figures say that they believe in Jesus or they believe
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in cultural Christianity like Richard Dawkins or they believe in the example of Christ,
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but it's the resurrection they could just never believe.
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So, I'll just start with that and see what you think about it.
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This is somewhat new in our cultural moment to have people like Dawkins and Jonathan Rauch
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and other atheists and non-believers talk about the importance of Christianity, but the idea
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of separating the teachings of Jesus and the value of Christianity from the resurrection and the truth
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This is classical liberal theology and it's the difference between the historic Christian faith
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and liberal theology, which essentially teaches a different gospel.
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I think the main reason why is you go back to 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and Paul says,
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I pass on to you, Christians in Corinth, what was first passed on to me, what was earlier passed
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on to me, what is of most importance? Jesus died, was buried according to scriptures, rose on the third
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day, paid for our sins and appeared to the 500, to Paul, to Peter, James, etc. And then he says in
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verses 14 and 17, if Jesus is not risen, our faith is worthless, it's in vain, we are misrepresenting
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God and we're still in our sins. So, Paul ties the value of the teachings of Christ to whether or not
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he's historically risen from the grave. And we see the same thing in the life of Jesus when he's asked,
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give us a sign in John chapter 2. What does he say? Of course, in other settings, he says the sign of
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Jonah. But in John 2, he says, I will destroy this temple, raise it up on the third day. His sign that
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his identity rests upon is the historical resurrection. So, I'm glad from a cultural perspective that people
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are not railing against Christianity like they used to in the past and they see the value of it culturally
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speaking. But let us not think we can have a Christianity apart from the life, death, and burial of
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Jesus. Jesus would have had none of that. Yeah. You know, I'm still surprised when I see people say
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Jesus wasn't real. Jesus was made up. I just got a comment on Acts the other day when I said something
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about Jesus and the response was, but Jesus wasn't real. I thought that we basically all agreed that
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Jesus at least was a real person. Even if someone denied his divinity, denied the resurrection, I thought
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that everyone understood that there was pretty ample evidence that this person named Jesus really
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existed. So, what would you say? If someone earnestly wanted to know, what is evidence that
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Jesus was even real? What would you say? Well, the first thing I would say is, I'm an academic. Yes,
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I'm an apologist. So, I'm not supposed to overstate things. But the idea that Jesus didn't exist is
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ridiculous. It's ridiculous. I mean, even Bart Ehrman, one of the leading atheists of our day,
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wrote a whole book about the idea that Jesus didn't exist. I think he said this idea doesn't
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emerge until like the 17th century. And he calls it a myth. And the reason is we just have too many
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sources, whether it's Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, independent books, historical accounts. We have
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Acts. We have the writings of Paul. We have the writings of Peter. We have the rest of the New
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Testament. We have early church fathers who assume that Jesus existed, those who received the baton,
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so to speak, from the gospel writers themselves. And then we have Josephus in the 90s, like,
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you know, three decades after the deaths of Peter and Paul, talking about the existence and death of
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Jesus, by the way. We have a Roman writer, early 2nd century. And even the critics of Christianity,
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when you get into the 2nd century and the 3rd, like Celsus and others, they never challenged the
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existence of Jesus. They say he was illegitimate. There's contradictions in the Bible. They raise
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other objections. So the idea that Jesus didn't exist is just silly, and it's ridiculous.
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What about those that say, okay, yeah, Jesus existed, but there were a lot of revolutionaries
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in that time who, you know, who challenged the authority of Rome, or maybe even said that they were
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the Messiah. And Jesus, he just happened to gain traction. It's kind of all a coincidence, and he
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died. And that was the end of it. And he's really not special, because other people were just like
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him. What do we say to that? What I would say is, wow, that's an interesting hypothesis. What evidence
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do you have that that hypothesis is actually true? I mean, when people say things like that,
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they're going to have to defend it. And then I'm going to say, all right, let's imagine you're
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right. Why do we have so many people who believe that Jesus was the Son of God, believe that he did
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miracles, and believe that he rose on the 3rd day? I mean, the vast majority of scholars, this comes
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from Gary Habermas' research. He's published recently in his book, On the Resurrection, Volume 1.
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He says the vast majority of scholars, like 90% plus, believe that the disciples at least report that
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they had experiences of the risen Jesus that they believed were real, like they're reporting what
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they think are real experiences. So if Jesus didn't say and do these things, how do we account for the
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disciples' beliefs? But then how do we get James, the brother of Jesus? And according to Mark 3 and
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John 7, the brothers of Jesus were not believers in him during his lifetime. And then James is martyred
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in AD 62, the head of the church in Jerusalem. How do you get Paul to believe this? And the vast majority
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of scholars believe that Paul had an experience that he believed was of the risen Jesus. So if we only had
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one account, then maybe we could explain this away. But we have so many different accounts that line up on
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the big details. And you have the disciples and the apostles and James willing to suffer and die for the belief
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that they'd seen there is in Jesus. It's not enough to just say, well, maybe he was like some other
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Messiah and passed away. And the largest religion in the world just took off from that. You're going to
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And what about the crucifixion? I mean, obviously, people know if they agree that Jesus lived, they know
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that he died. But the entire crucifixion thing, him dying on a cross, the mob choosing him to be
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crucified over Barabbas, Pontius Pilate, the two criminals on either side of them. Is that not
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just all kind of a myth that Christians have put together to, you know, kind of finish their
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narrative that he was this sacrificial lamb? So the claim that Jesus wasn't crucified is about up there
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as being as really contra what we know historically speaking, and I would argue ridiculous, with the
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claim that Jesus didn't exist. The evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus is virtually overwhelming.
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Now, why? Well, for one, again, we have multiple early sources. We have 1 Corinthians chapter 15,
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which arguably that creed embedded within Corinthians could be dated within three to five years of the
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death of Jesus. We have the other New Testament books. We have the Gospels. We have Acts. Again, we have
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the early church fathers who the apostles, some of them knew, and they're writing at the end of the first
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century into the second century, affirming the crucifixion of Jesus. Again, we also have Josephus, a Jew,
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and Tacitus, a Roman, early second century, Josephus in the 90s, who not only affirmed that Jesus lived,
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but affirmed that he was crucified. Now, the other piece that I would add to this is it's also not the
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kind of thing that early Christians would invent if they're trying to build a movement. So crucifixion
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was the most shameful, dishonorable, humiliating, painful death imaginable. Deuteronomy says if you're
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hung on a tree, you're cursed. You were shamed publicly, brought shame on your faith, brought shame
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on your country. It was the ultimate worst death imaginable. So if the apostles are inventing a faith
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and they're trying to get people to follow it, a crucifixion is the least likely death that they
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would give rather than dishonorable. They would invent an honorable death, at least far more likely.
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So you add that theological point to the historical point. I think the only people that really deny
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the crucifixion of Jesus would be mythicists, which are a handful, you can count them on one,
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maybe two hands who deny that Jesus existed, and Muslims, which in Surah 4, and of course the Quran's
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not written until roughly seven centuries or so after the time of Jesus, Surah 4 denies the
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crucifixion. Not arguing, unless somebody's already committed to that being the word of God or
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historical, and I don't think there's good independent reason to take it as being so,
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you would never reject the crucifixion of Jesus. It's just too firmly established.
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What would you say if you were to play devil's advocate, which I know you do. I like to do too.
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I like to understand the other side's argument and respond to that. So what would you say is the
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best argument against the resurrection of Jesus, if there is a logical argument out there, and how
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would you respond to it? Yeah, that's an interesting question, Allie. I would say if you go back to like
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the 18th and 19th centuries, early into the 20th century, it was kind of the heyday of these
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naturalistic hypotheses. So people would say Jesus was just a legend, or he went to the wrong tomb,
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or he didn't really die on the cross, or there were hallucinations. And I think there's significant
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historical problems with all of those. Like if you take hallucinations, you say, okay, maybe the
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apostles had hallucinations, but you still have to account for James and Paul. And that doesn't explain
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the empty tomb. Like going to the wrong tomb isn't going to get you appearances, which is what convinces
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the apostles that is true, not just an empty tomb. But in the 21st century, really the main objection
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is more methodological than it actually is against the facts tied to the person of Jesus. So for me,
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I'd probably just say, you know, we're dealing with an event 2000 years ago. You know, we have fake news
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today. How much confidence can we have in a miracle claim from 2000 years ago? And especially because
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it's such an extraordinary claim, it's often said, we're going to need extraordinary evidence. I think
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if I was going to challenge it, I would probably take that route. But I think we can put the standard
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too low. And sometimes Christians can just be gullible and believe anything that supports our
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faith. We can also put the standard too high. Whereas I think extraordinary claims require
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sufficient evidence. Extraordinary claims require adequate evidence. There's a lot of extraordinary
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things that have happened in the past and extraordinary things that happen today. So I think
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if we use the means of good historical analysis and we don't rule out the supernatural from the beginning
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and we follow the evidence where it leads, I think we have good solid evidence to conclude
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that Jesus has risen from the grave. Hmm. Okay. What about those who say, now we're moving into the
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Christian camp, or maybe I've seen skeptics say this too, that, okay, even just aside from the
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resurrection, whether you accept it or not, Easter isn't about the resurrection. Easter is this pagan
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celebration of Ishtar, the fertility goddess, and Christians should just be celebrating Passover.
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Jesus was a Jew who celebrated Passover. And so why are we even taking part in this pagan ritual? Some
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might use that to discount Christianity altogether. Some Christians might do it, just maybe they're
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well-meaning. But what would you say to that? I would say one thing. I would say, look, if somebody
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is a Christian and they think that there's pagan roots to Christmas or there's pagan roots to Easter
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and your conscience doesn't make you feel comfortable celebrating it in that way, then don't call it
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Easter. You know, don't do the kind of wrappings that we don't find in the Bible like a Christmas
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tree. I'd say that's totally fine. But for me, Christianity does not have pagan roots. It has Jewish
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roots. We go back. I mean, I've been reading the gospel of John every day for a while. I've just been
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finding time to read all of it. And this is true for all the gospels. Christianity has Jewish roots.
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Jesus points towards Old Testament prophecy about him being the Messiah, about him being one with God,
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understood as the God of the Old Testament, about fulfilling prophecies in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22
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and Zechariah 9. So I think when we look at the birth of Jesus, we look at the death of Jesus, we look at the
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Christian movement. It was really the early 1900s that people would say it had pagan roots and they looked for
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these parallels in like other pagan kind of mystery religions of the time and then try to say, look, Christianity
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borrowed from these. But what we've found is that actually the similarities are completely exaggerated.
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And second, any of the similarities that really map on come after Christianity. So if anything,
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these pagan mystery religions borrowed more from Christianity than Christianity did from the pagan
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mystery religions. Personally, I don't have a problem having a Christmas tree and wrappings,
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even if that's not laid out in the scriptures, because I teach my kids exactly what Christmas is
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and why. I don't have a problem with some of the cultural calling it Easter, but I just always remind
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my kids, here's what we're practicing. Here's why. Here's what the gospels teach. And here's just stuff
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we find within our culture. But ultimately, I'll leave that up to the conscience of your viewers.
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What about, I've seen this argument frequently over the past couple of years, that really Christians
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should be celebrating all Jewish holidays and that whether, you know, they believe in celebrating
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Christmas, Easter or not, but that we should really be following the Jewish calendar, following
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the example of Jesus. Like, do you think Christians are bound by that?
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I wouldn't say that we're bound by that, to follow all of the Jewish rituals, because clearly those
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are types and foreshadows pointing towards the person of Jesus. So I think we can make one of two
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mistakes, Allie. I think one mistake would be to say, to miss what Christ did on the cross and how he
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freed us from the law and has given us a new covenant. The other mistake, and I think the church is
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probably more guilty of this than still practicing the rituals, is to completely divorce ourselves from
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our Jewish roots. And this has damage in a lot of ways. Number one, I think it alienates a lot of
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Jews feeling like if I become a Christian, then I have to completely seize who I think my identity is
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as a Jew. I think it also guts us as Christians from the rich history of the Old Testament that helps
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kind of formulate and decide who we are. So we have some liberty. Our salvation and relationship
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with God is not defined by them. But so many of these rituals were given to the nation of Israel
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to make them holy and set apart as reminders of who God was and who God is. And I think when we bring
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those and practice many of those today, and we could talk about the particulars like Passover is a big one
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that comes up. I think when we practice these, knowing how they're fulfilled in Christ, they
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actually help us better understand who Christ is because he fulfills the Old Testament, but also
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realize we're not bound by this. We're actually set free in terms of who Christ is. Yeah, I agree.
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Having a knowledge of them, especially as something like Passover, and knowing that we actually have,
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as you said, the fulfillment of these things, that we are not celebrating these holidays in
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anticipation for the Messiah to one day come, as the Jews are, but that we are celebrating them as
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realizing that Jesus is the culmination. He is the fulfillment of all of those things. So
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I think that at the very least, as you said, knowing our Jewish roots and knowing the Jewish holidays and
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what's behind them and what is being celebrated and honored could add a lot of fullness and richness to
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Specifically about Easter, kind of going back to some questions that people sent in about why
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Jesus did certain things, said certain things leading up to the crucifixion, even what he said
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on the cross. So when Jesus is in the garden and he is praying and he is in pain, I mean,
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that's just a poignant passage. That's a different side of Jesus than we have seen before. So
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vulnerable, so human-like when he's praying that the Father would let this cup of suffering
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pass from him. Can you kind of like break down that passage? Why do we read that? Why do we need
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to know that? And what exactly does this mean? This is a great question. And the first thing I
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would say is this, you're asking this passage because it raises troubling questions. Like,
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why is Jesus asking this cup to be taken away from me when we know that he knows it's coming
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and he's supposed to fulfill it? So one thing this tells us is these words were not invented.
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These, this historically goes back to Jesus because the early church would not have invented
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these like difficult passages, put them in the mouth of Jesus for people like us later to be like,
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uh, I'm not sure I totally get it. So this gets us back to the historical Jesus, which tells us he
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suffered. And I think that's also another piece of circumstantial evidence for his crucifixion.
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What we have in Jesus consistently is a few things. Number one, he has submitted himself
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fully to the Father. I mean, just read the Gospel of John, even though the story you're sharing is
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not in the Gospel of John, he over and over again is saying, I do what the Father requires.
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My authority comes from above. So we see the sense that Jesus is one with God in essence.
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And John again, makes it clear that he was God and was with God. So he's one in purpose with the
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Father and he's one in essence with the Father, but because he takes on human flesh and is like us
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in every way, Hebrews two and Hebrews four points towards he suffers and he gets tired and he gets
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hungry and he's tempted. So somehow in this person of Jesus, we have this mystery where he's God
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and he knows everything. But he also is like pleading out to the Father to take this cup away
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from him. So I think in some ways, this passage is just revealing the level of suffering that Jesus
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went through. Now, a lot of people don't really realize this, but it's almost like Jesus met his
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resolve in the garden. It's where he's wrestling with God. He realizes what's at stake. And then once he
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prays this prayer to God related to the cup, his Father, it's like he has this confidence,
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so to speak, that takes him all the way through the crucifixion until the end. So I think we just
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see this human side of Jesus that in one sense, his mind knows he needs to do it. He needs to be
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obedient to the Father and he will, but everything inside of him is like, why do I have to go through
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this God? And he's just expressing this feeling and desire of his heart. So in some sense, we see
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the human side of Jesus suffering. We can relate to it. But we also, if we read the larger passages
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around it, see the clear divinity of Jesus and both are at play. I'm guessing this is a similar
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principle at play when Jesus is actually on the cross and he says, my God, my God, why have you
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forsaken me? I mean, for the same reasons that you're articulating, it can be very hard to understand
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that. Okay, Jesus is fully God. Is there a real separation going on there? How do we reconcile
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that with our knowledge of the Trinity? So what is happening in this moment?
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Such a good question. And again, as the point before, these words are historical. The early
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church did not invent these words, put them on the lips of Jesus as the last words that he speaks
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in Mark and then raise all these difficult theological questions. So from a purely historical
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standpoint, we have about as much confidence as you could have that Jesus spoke these words. Now,
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this is in Mark 1534. But then if you just go to 1539, you have this Roman centurion who's watching
00:26:52.220
this five verses later. And what does he say? He says, truly, this man is the son of God.
00:27:00.340
So within five verses, you have Jesus crying out saying, Father, why have you abandoned me?
00:27:07.600
And this soldier's watching this. And then within a few verses, even the soldier sees, I think this is
00:27:13.320
the climax of the book of Mark. Even the soldier sees that there's something supernatural and arguably
00:27:19.140
divine about him at the same time. The question is, how do we hold these two in tension? Now that
00:27:26.100
verse, Father, Father, why, or God, God, why have you forsaken me? That's from a Psalm David wrote in
00:27:31.980
Psalm 22.1. And if you read that Psalm, a few things stand out about it. Number one, David's like,
00:27:38.500
God, why have you abandoned me? And it's this harrowing sense that David, who's one of the chosen,
00:27:44.580
precursors to the Messiah, chosen king, is saying to God, why have you abandoned me?
00:27:52.540
But you also have in that passage, there's a few other messianic references about how they cast his
00:27:58.100
garment as lots. Also in Psalm 22 is the sense of where they pierce my hands, which is a foreshadowing
00:28:07.640
of the crucifixion. So I think Jesus cited this in part because he's saying on the cross, basically
00:28:15.820
when it's finished, I am fulfilling the Old Testament and what it said about me. David suffered.
00:28:23.780
I suffer even more because I'm greater than David. So not only is this a messianic Psalm,
00:28:30.280
it also makes clear that David was going to feel this sense of abandonment, but not actually be
00:28:38.160
abandoned. He said, I felt like God abandoned me and left me alone, but God has and will triumphally
00:28:44.720
seen that in the past. So in some ways, Jesus is doing the same thing. He's saying as David felt
00:28:51.480
abandoned and God was still with him and working towards the good, this is how I feel abandoned and
00:28:59.180
God is going to work it for good. But with that said, it's really important that we don't downplay
00:29:04.780
just the human pain and agony that Jesus was going through. We typically think about the physical pain
00:29:12.960
on the cross as being the worst, and that was unimaginable. But I think the worst part is the
00:29:19.620
greatest injustice, that the only person who's ever lived who didn't sin, I mean, Jesus says to the
00:29:26.600
religious leaders in John, he's like, who of you can convict me of sin? The only sinless person
00:29:32.740
who's ever lived, taking on the sin of the world, that way Jesus is also crying out, expressing that
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Why do you think the crowd chose Jesus to be crucified over Barabbas? I'm curious what you believe
00:31:34.840
that says about the particular people at that time and what that might tell us about human sinful
00:31:41.360
nature in general. That's really hard to know for sure, because at least when you read John,
00:31:48.180
you get the impression that Pilate is trying to get an excuse to get out of this. He sees that Jesus is,
00:31:54.760
he's like, I find no guilt in this man. I've had him whipped. Like, he's trying to do everything
00:32:00.040
to please the crowd, and they're not pleased. Now, how big the crowd was, exactly how many of them
00:32:07.160
wanted Jesus crucified, that's hard to say. I mean, again, in John, you have the sense of some
00:32:13.720
of the religious leaders at that time believed in Jesus and followed him, but some did not.
00:32:20.460
It starts as early as John 5 when Jesus heals the man at the pool of Bethesda on the Sabbath,
00:32:28.300
claiming the authority of God, that they start planning to kill him. So I think it probably was
00:32:35.460
certain religious leaders of that time with power who felt threatened by Jesus, and Jesus makes it
00:32:43.560
clear that they did not know the Father. They thought they did, but they did not know the Father.
00:32:48.140
If they knew the Father, they would listen to him because the Father and Moses and the scriptures
00:32:53.360
and the miracles all point towards that. So I think they were spiritually blind. They felt
00:32:59.840
threatened by the power of Jesus and thought that this would be the end of Jesus, which of course
00:33:05.820
is the greatest irony in human history. About as ironic as when Pilate says to Jesus, he says something
00:33:13.760
to the effect of, you won't talk to me? Don't you not have power to crucify you or not? And Jesus is
00:33:18.640
like, you have no authority over me. This crowd and Pilate thought this was going to be the end of it.
00:33:29.500
Yeah. Gosh, when you said blindness, it reminded me of what I was reading this morning in John 9 when
00:33:35.560
Jesus healed the blind man and the Pharisees. They are very confused about this. Sometimes you don't know
00:33:42.920
if the Pharisees are really confused or if they're trying to trap Jesus. I guess usually it's the
00:33:47.740
latter, but they're talking to this blind man trying to figure out, okay, who healed you? What
00:33:53.520
do you think about him? Do you think that this man is a sinner? He healed you on the Sabbath. And it's
00:33:59.060
just, it's clear they are spiritually hardened and they can't see Jesus for who he is and what he's
00:34:07.360
doing. They can't even say unapologetically, wow, this is a great thing that this man has been
00:34:13.760
healed. They're more concerned with what Jesus is really up to. And it seems like that theme is
00:34:19.080
carried through even to the moment that we're talking about as they are delivering him over to
00:34:24.220
be crucified. And it's easy to look at that and say, how could they do that? He never did anything
00:34:29.360
wrong. I mean, truly a sheep led to the slaughter, but it says a lot about the hardness of our hearts.
00:34:35.180
I think we can all see parts of ourselves in those who are deriding Jesus, who are mocking Jesus,
00:34:41.700
who betrayed Jesus, that we think we know better and not really understanding the spirit of God's
00:34:49.960
commands, even if we do know the letter of the law. And so it's very humbling to see Jesus's
00:34:56.160
interactions with the holiest and most knowledgeable people at the time. He really does flip over the
00:35:03.440
wisdom of the world and makes it look foolish. And it's just a good check for us that, okay,
00:35:09.660
like, are we following the wisdom of God? Are we relying on our own smarts, our own knowledge, our
00:35:18.780
You know, what's amazing about that story is, again, I've just been reading through John,
00:35:22.580
so it's so fresh in my mind, is there's so many people who know what Jesus did and know who he is,
00:35:30.060
but they're afraid to speak up. So this blind man in John 9 you're talking about was blind from the
00:35:37.480
moment that he was born. He had never seen. And they come to him and ask him, he's like,
00:35:43.600
this man, Jesus healed us. Well, they don't want to accept that. So they go to his parents and his
00:35:49.420
parents, and they ask his parents, the Pharisees do, is this your son? Is he healed by Jesus? And it says
00:35:56.200
kind of in parentheses, which means it's the author of John giving his commentary,
00:36:00.880
that believing in following Jesus, you'd be kicked out of the synagogue. So out of fear,
00:36:06.460
their parents, rather than saying, I mean, their son who had never seen, he was 38 years old,
00:36:12.420
I think, if I remember, or maybe that was the, maybe that was the invalid in John 5, but his whole
00:36:19.000
life he had not seen. You'd think his parents would be so thrilled, they'd say, my son was blind,
00:36:24.760
and now he sees. But out of fear to the religious leaders, they just say, well, go ask him, he can
00:36:30.700
talk. And I look at that, I'm like, wow, am I speaking up on what's true, even if it costs me
00:36:37.440
something? So you're right, we have to do a check on spiritual blindness. But I think we have to ask
00:36:43.260
ourselves, who do I fear? Do I fear God? Or do I fear men? And we see this example of Jesus. He says,
00:36:52.020
you have no power over me. I've already defeated death. I've already conquered this world. Are we
00:36:59.280
going to live in that confidence? Man, that convicts me every day, Allie, because I want to be more and
00:37:05.860
more bold to speak the truth, like that blind man who's like, all I know is I was blind, but now I
00:37:13.100
see. You know, it's funny that you talk about his parents, because that was the first time that
00:37:18.620
stuck out to me today. I was actually listening to it in the car. And when I heard that part, I was
00:37:24.220
like, they literally just threw their kid under the bus. They were like, we don't, we don't want to say
00:37:28.920
who did it. We don't want to say who healed him. We'll let our son, who has been disabled his whole
00:37:33.540
life, we'll let him take the fall for it. If he wants to say it was Jesus, then, you know, he can do
00:37:39.520
that. We're not going to. And I love what you said about being convicted about our own boldness. I
00:37:45.340
would love to think that I would never throw my own children under the bus, that I would never be
00:37:49.120
so scared of someone that I'd be afraid to stand up for what is true for the sake of my kids. But
00:37:54.780
whatever it is, it's so easy for us to be intimidated by the opinions of others or what they can
00:38:00.600
do to us that we're just, we won't say what is true. So that's a really good point.
00:38:05.940
Um, okay. Theologically, explain to us the significance of Jesus's death and resurrection.
00:38:15.800
Obviously, you know, we know that this is Christianity 101. This is what it rests on,
00:38:20.820
but a lot of people listening might not know. So we've gone through how we know it actually
00:38:26.900
happened, how we know it's true, but I want to hear you articulate why it matters.
00:38:31.700
You know, the irony in this question, Allie, is that we call it Good Friday. I mean, how many
00:38:39.380
people just stop and say, why do we call a day good for which our founder that we put faith in
00:38:47.360
was mocked and spitted on and stripped naked and humiliated and crucified publicly and shamed?
00:38:57.160
We don't celebrate the day that JFK or Abraham Lincoln or anybody else that we revere was put
00:39:05.120
to death. Well, the difference with Jesus is there was something good about his death. And the question
00:39:13.040
is, what was it? Well, Jesus understands himself and so do the gospels as fulfilling the Old Testament.
00:39:20.580
So if you go back to John 1, verse 29, and then it says it again in the 30s, when John the Baptist sees
00:39:28.140
Jesus coming, what does he say? He says, behold the Lamb of God. Meaning he's referring back to the
00:39:35.860
Passover, which we talked about earlier, where a spotless lamb was killed before the 10th plague,
00:39:42.700
where the Israelites are in Egypt, and that its blood was put in the doorstep. And then the angel of God
00:39:49.820
would pass over those houses and spare the life of the oldest son. So Jesus sees himself, John the Baptist
00:40:03.220
sees himself, in this Old Testament motif, that life is spared and saved through death of a lamb. Now in the
00:40:13.320
Old Testament, these animals were kind of substitutes, their life. I mean, it says in Leviticus chapter 17,
00:40:19.140
that it's like, you know, through the bloodshed that we are, we have atonement with God. Now we're not
00:40:25.640
explaining why, but somehow through death, we're able to be in right relationship with God. Now animals
00:40:35.260
did that in the Old Testament. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. And the reason we don't have to keep
00:40:41.020
sacrificing is because Jesus is truly human. He represents us, but he's also truly God. He's never
00:40:49.100
sinned. So his sacrifice, you might say, is infinite to cover any sin that we do, acts as our substitute
00:40:58.440
for us. So it's Good Friday, because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, Jesus died for our sins. So in some,
00:41:10.260
Jesus covers first, Jesus covers first the wrath of God, who, because God is just, needs a payment for sin.
00:41:18.220
But he also covers our duty to God in his death on the cross. Now the reason the resurrection is
00:41:26.100
important is because it's God stamped saying death doesn't have the last word. Yes, it's finished. Sin has
00:41:33.600
been paid for. We have been forgiven. Jesus conquers the grave. And it's like, it ratifies that death
00:41:42.040
with God's divine approval and tells us that this is real, supernaturally speaking, our sins are
00:41:49.820
forgiven. And the last thing, Allie, that I would say is this is what separates Christianity from every
00:41:54.360
other faith system. We can't earn God's approval by doing some kind of work. Jesus paid our debt on the
00:42:04.320
cross. We contribute nothing to our own forgiveness and standing before God, except a humble acceptance
00:42:13.720
of what Christ has done. I think when we realize the debt that he paid, all that can do is humble us
00:42:21.300
before God, and then live differently, because we have actually been forgiving and can stand in relationship
00:42:31.640
Amen. Yes, I remember, I don't remember who originally said this, maybe, maybe you know, but I think I heard it in
00:42:38.700
high school, and it just clicked. So much of what you're saying is encapsulated in this picture that there are so
00:42:44.220
many religions that can tell you how to get to God. And some people will stop there. You know, Buddhism can tell you
00:42:49.700
how to get to God. Islam, Judaism, all of these religions can tell you the steps that you have to
00:42:55.880
take, the rules that you have to follow to find that divine, fulfilling life. But the difference in
00:43:04.220
those religions and Christianity is that Christianity actually doesn't give that message at all.
00:43:09.660
Christianity is not saying, here's what you can do to get to God. Here's how you climb the mountain to
00:43:14.820
get to God. It's actually saying, you can't. You can't do that. You can't climb up the mountain. You
00:43:19.620
cannot get to God. You are completely powerless to do that. So God had to come down the mountain to
00:43:26.260
rescue you. And I love what you said, that we contribute nothing to our forgiveness. That is the
00:43:32.260
distinctive, I think, between Christianity and all the other faiths. It's not about rules to follow so
00:43:38.960
that you will gain salvation. Yes, there are commands that we abide by because we have been saved and love
00:43:44.280
God, but we cannot clean ourselves up for God. That is a freeing, kind of liberating good news that no
00:43:53.020
other religion has. It's just too much of a generalization and not true to say all these
00:43:58.820
different religions are basically the same. They're not. Christianity is the one that is distinct
00:44:03.940
because our gospel is different than all the others. Amen. You remind me of a story probably 15 or 20
00:44:11.920
years ago. I was speaking to an atheist group at Berkeley, and I was making the case that Christianity
00:44:16.640
is unique for four reasons. And one of them is God's grace, that salvation is a free gift. And these
00:44:24.280
were students, so I kind of thought free would like land with them, you know, students paying for their
00:44:29.300
education, you don't have a lot of money. And the student afterwards, I'll never forget, he goes,
00:44:33.460
he actually said it's a way, he goes, Sean, your arguments are so bad. If I didn't know any
00:44:38.020
differently, I'd think you were stoned on crack. He actually said it like that to me. I'm like, okay.
00:44:42.860
He goes, in Buddhism, there's a certain kind of gift and grace that is given to people on their journey.
00:44:51.180
And he goes, so you find grace in other faiths. And interestingly, I was in a doctoral class
00:44:57.240
on Buddhism at that time. And so I knew it. I said, you're right. Within Buddhism, certain forms
00:45:04.480
of Buddhism, there are gods that give some grace for somebody on their journey. But it's different
00:45:11.160
in saying you have to do certain actions and earn your way to salvation, and you get little pockets
00:45:16.920
of grace along the way. And the entire thing is a free gift. That's different. And that's unique
00:45:25.040
to Christianity. And that's why, you know, Paul says, he talks about grace is a free gift. This
00:45:30.920
is not from yourselves. It is a gift from God. So no one can boast. All I can tell you, Ali,
00:45:40.120
is the older I get, the more I'm aware of just how profoundly I fall short of this, how much I need
00:45:46.900
God. And I'm just thankful for his grace. You know, I think there is something biblical. It might
00:45:54.540
have been a little bit crass, but him saying that your theological arguments sound like you're high
00:46:00.560
on crack or stoned on crack. You know, I mean, 1 Corinthians 1 makes really clear that like the
00:46:06.660
wisdom of God sounds like foolishness to the wise of the world, and that he turns that on his head.
00:46:13.680
And that is routinely what Jesus did, as we were talking about earlier, with some of the smartest,
00:46:18.480
most knowledgeable religious leaders. They thought that he sounded like he was crazy.
00:46:22.160
Um, I would, I would love to know where that student is today. And if there is a seed that
00:46:27.840
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Okay, I would love to talk about just maybe kind of rapid fire with the little time that we have
00:47:57.800
left, just some basic theological questions. And we got some really good questions in from my listeners,
00:48:04.380
or really maybe apologetics, I guess they go hand in hand. But they reminded me of some questions,
00:48:09.200
actually, that my five, almost six-year-old has been asking me. And as you know, at this age,
00:48:15.220
kids can become really good theologians. And they ask questions that you're like,
00:48:20.120
that's a really good question. There are grownups that are still asking and debating things like
00:48:24.300
this. So we were reading, for example, which we've done many, many times, but we were reading
00:48:29.040
in her kid's Bible, the story of the Garden of Eden, of creation and the fall. And she understands
00:48:36.340
that sin and sadness and sickness came from all of that. And she's really sad about that. She's
00:48:41.600
genuinely really, really sad about that and wishes it did not happen. And she asked me,
00:48:47.380
why did God make the serpent? Why did God put him there? And I'm like, yeah, that's something that
00:48:53.760
people have been debating for a long time. And I don't know that I have the clear-cut answer on that
00:49:00.560
exactly. But what would you say to that really good question?
00:49:05.440
Well, first off, I'd say to your five or six-year-old, as I say to my kids, I go,
00:49:09.560
what a great question. I love that you're using your mind. Keep the questions coming.
00:49:16.200
Second, I would say, what do you think? I mean, seriously, I ask kids questions all the time. I
00:49:22.700
want to teach them how to think. I want to teach them how to relate and discuss these topics
00:49:27.180
rather than just giving them an answer. Third, I would say, you know, the Bible doesn't directly
00:49:33.240
tell us. This serpent just shows up. We don't know where the serpent comes from. Maybe later in
00:49:39.920
Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14, we possibly get an explanation, but we really don't know. Can we
00:49:46.640
trust God when we don't know? But here's what we do know. Somehow God was able to use this serpent
00:49:53.900
that seem to have free will and choose to rebel from God, just like we have free will and we rebel
00:50:01.340
from God. Just as God can still use our lives, even though we don't always choose good, and some
00:50:08.480
is consistently choose bad. I think God can still use the serpent in and to bring his ultimate good.
00:50:16.440
To a five-year-old, that's probably where I would leave it and put it.
00:50:20.280
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, that's really good. We have some other questions from our listeners.
00:50:28.800
One question, I'm struggling with assurance of salvation. How can I know for sure that I'm saved?
00:50:36.980
Well, the first thing I would say is tell me what you mean by sure. I think we can have assurance or
00:50:42.620
confidence in salvation, but that doesn't require certainty. Doubt is not the opposite of belief,
00:50:51.000
which is why Jude says, have mercy on those who doubt. So I see a lot of people deconstruct. I know
00:50:58.600
this is a topic you've talked about, Ali, and sometimes people think, if I don't have 100% certainty,
00:51:03.020
then I don't have belief. I want to say belief is 51% in favor of something, but then how do I grow?
00:51:11.460
The bottom line in Romans 10, 9 is talk about if you confess with your lips and with your mouth that
00:51:18.160
Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. So do you believe that Jesus is God? Do you believe he's the one that
00:51:28.240
the Father sent? Do you believe that he's forgiven you for your sins? If you believe that, you're safe.
00:51:36.760
Now, somebody who says this, oftentimes in my experience, Ali, there's sometimes just deeper
00:51:41.620
hurt and questions that are going on underneath the surface. So I would encourage this person. I'd say,
00:51:47.860
look, it's natural to have questions. It's natural to have doubts. I would sit down with a pastor and try
00:51:53.700
to get to the root of where some of those doubts come from. Are they emotional? Are they spiritual?
00:51:59.680
Are they moral? And then when we can kind of address those, there's a proverb that says,
00:52:04.460
the purposes in a man's heart are deep and a person of wisdom draws it out. Oftentimes,
00:52:10.100
doubt of salvation comes from questions we have. And if it's intellectual, study apologetics. If it's
00:52:16.120
moral, repent. If it's relational, maybe you've got to heal that relationship. That's how we grow
00:52:23.380
in our confidence in the Lord. If someone is just starting out and just exploring Christianity,
00:52:32.220
what should they do first? Where should they start in the Bible? How do they find a local church? I
00:52:38.340
know that those are kind of big separate questions, but where would you tell someone to start?
00:52:43.860
I would definitely get plugged in a church right away, and I would look for an evangelical church.
00:52:49.100
Obviously, that's the tradition you and I are a part of that's going to teach that the Bible
00:52:53.020
is true and preach the scriptures from the stage. So go to a church, get involved in a small group
00:53:01.580
as quickly as you can. That's how we grow, and that's how you learn, and that's how there's
00:53:06.380
accountability. In terms of the scriptures, I just sent out a tweet earlier today, and I asked people,
00:53:13.040
I said, if you were stranded on an island and you had one Old Testament book and one New Testament
00:53:18.200
book, what would you pick? I said, I'd take Genesis and I'd take John. I'd encourage this person to
00:53:24.960
read Genesis and then read the gospel of John. Start there. For a new believer, if I could throw
00:53:31.640
one more in there, if I had a copy I'd give it to you, I'd really encourage you to read the book
00:53:35.100
more than a carpenter. My dad wrote this as a skeptic trying to disprove Christianity. He came to the
00:53:40.120
faith and it lays out who Jesus is and the most simple case that Jesus is God. The Bible is true.
00:53:46.160
He rose to the grave. We just updated it. It's so important to start one's journey in a church,
00:53:51.940
in a small group, in the scriptures, but also with the confidence that this is really true.
00:53:57.720
Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. And Sean, if people want to read you,
00:54:02.960
follow you, support you, how can they best do that?
00:54:05.560
Like you, I'm on YouTube. I really love this platform. I love having long form conversations.
00:54:11.860
So all the stuff we talked about today, evidence for the resurrection, death of Jesus, intelligent
00:54:16.740
design, moral and social issues, many of the ones that you cover, I talk about on YouTube.
00:54:22.140
My website, seanmcdowell.org, links to Instagram. I think that's where you told me last time you first
00:54:26.640
saw some of my stuff. I do a lot of short videos, just apologetics that's there. I've got a blog.
00:54:32.180
We have a separate audio podcast out of Biola that I co-host. And if anybody really loves this
00:54:38.760
stuff, Allie, I'd say come study with me at Talbot. We have a master's program in apologetics. It's
00:54:44.080
totally online. We would love to equip you to just become an apologist in your church to serve the
00:54:50.560
body of Christ. Dr. Sean McDowell, thank you so much for taking the time and happy Easter.
00:54:57.720
Thanks, Allie. Happy Resurrection Day and happy Easter.