Ep 1179 ｜ Submissive Wife, Bold Evangelist： Embracing True Womanhood ｜ Guest： Audrey Broggi
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
193.20485
Summary
Audrey Brogy is a Christian mother, grandmother, pastor's wife, writer, and podcaster. She is just incredible and she is going to tell us her testimony today and interweave so much beautiful biblical wisdom within that. We will be talking about the sometimes touchy subject of biblical submission in marriage and what that really looks like and how the Holy Spirit empowers us to obey God and respect our husbands. You will be lifted up so much by everything she has to say.
Transcript
00:00:03.620
And if you are married to an unbelieving husband, how can you point him to the Lord?
00:00:09.160
How can you be a good wife and mom, fulfilling your calling at home, and maybe also a call
00:00:19.880
She is a Christian mother, grandmother, pastor's wife, writer, teacher, podcaster.
00:00:25.820
She is just incredible, and she is going to tell us her testimony today.
00:00:30.080
And interweave so much beautiful biblical wisdom within that.
00:00:33.960
We will be talking about the sometimes touchy subject of biblical submission in marriage
00:00:39.420
and what that really looks like and how the Holy Spirit empowers us to obey God and respect
00:00:47.740
You will be lifted up so much by everything she has to say.
00:00:50.840
Today's episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:01:00.000
Audrey Brogy, thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
00:01:10.500
Could you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do?
00:01:13.400
Well, as you've already said my name, Audrey Brogy, but the main thing I am is a pastor's
00:01:18.800
We've been in Beaufort, South Carolina for, what is it, 35 years now?
00:01:23.620
Since 1990, we went there after he finished seminary.
00:01:28.640
Before that, we were on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ, and I served alongside with him
00:01:33.040
back in the day when it was like, I mean, it was just wonderful.
00:01:41.100
Which makes me sad because we love it where there's so much that we both learned.
00:01:46.060
In fact, my husband came to Christ through the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ when
00:01:49.960
he was a freshman at Boston College, and it's interesting because when he was there, he
00:01:58.520
He'd had a lawnmower accident, and he started thinking about God a lot more, and he went
00:02:04.560
to this meeting, and they asked him, well, how long have you been a Christian?
00:02:08.220
He said about six months because that's how long he'd been thinking about God, but more.
00:02:11.960
And so that night, they were training people how to share their faith, and when they were
00:02:18.420
doing the training, he realized he didn't know the Lord, and he trusted Christ that night.
00:02:23.080
And so, but anyway, I've been serving alongside him with him in ministry since that time, and
00:02:29.380
for the past 35 years, been very involved at our church, Community Bible Church in Beaufort.
00:02:35.640
Well, there's so much I want to ask you within that.
00:02:38.700
We met when I was a student at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and I was very
00:02:43.900
involved in the ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ as a student when I was a sophomore,
00:02:48.860
a very close friend of mine, not a boyfriend, but a good friend, got killed in a car accident,
00:02:57.540
And then I didn't know about Campus Crusade for Christ at that time, but a really good,
00:03:03.140
oh, actually, I should say a really good friend.
00:03:07.840
It was a guy, a different guy, but he was at NC State, and he invited me to go to the
00:03:15.340
When I went to that, it answered a lot of questions.
00:03:18.540
It really helped me, and then I got involved with Campus Crusade when I came back.
00:03:21.780
All that to say, I got involved, and then Carl came to our campus when I was a junior on
00:03:28.420
staff, and so I knew about him that year by reputation.
00:03:33.900
I wasn't, we weren't dating or anything, but then as time progressed and the other relationship
00:03:44.660
And so we started dating my senior year in college and then got married after I graduated.
00:03:50.680
So you dated for a few months, engaged for a few months, got married, and how, oh, go
00:03:57.040
Oh, I was going to say September is when we started dating, engaged by Thanksgiving and
00:04:06.280
And I mean, I'll just pause on that because that's probably a question that a lot of young
00:04:11.300
women who are listening have is how do you know?
00:04:13.920
I always talk about how I was told, when you know, you know, when I was in college, and
00:04:18.920
that always frustrated me so much because I wanted a formula.
00:04:21.940
I wanted someone to tell me that there's going to be writing on the wall that's going to tell
00:04:25.800
you this is the one, and that was, you know, previous relationship.
00:04:28.980
It was actually me just knowing that that was the wrong relationship, and I wanted someone
00:04:35.280
But then when I met my husband, I realized that that's really true.
00:04:41.740
I mean, but that is something there that you just kind of know.
00:04:46.120
So can you talk about that for anyone navigating that?
00:04:49.280
You know, it's interesting because, you know, I knew Carl by reputation my junior year in
00:04:57.480
I had no interest in him, but I knew him by reputation.
00:05:00.200
I knew when he came there that he was leading students.
00:05:05.000
You know, we know God saves people, but he wants us to share the gospel.
00:05:14.160
So I knew him by reputation and really respected him.
00:05:19.700
And I remember kind of being blown away because I knew he had become a Christian.
00:05:24.560
First time on my campus, he came to, at that time, what was called College Life.
00:05:31.020
We all started laughing because his accent was so strong.
00:05:34.580
And I always tell him, we weren't laughing at you.
00:05:44.620
And all of you Southern people were like, what is this?
00:05:48.880
But anyway, all that to say is like, so I knew him by reputation.
00:05:52.620
Because lots of times people will say it went really fast by the time we started dating.
00:06:00.240
So then when I came back to college my senior year and I was not involved in a relationship
00:06:06.480
and he started, just kind of moved in and wanted and asked me to go out with him.
00:06:22.860
Because I was, this is what I was going to say.
00:06:25.120
I was blown away how much he knew the Bible had only been a Christian since a freshman
00:06:32.920
And he just, I, it was just a fervor that I grew up in church.
00:06:39.160
I became a Christian when I was a little girl, clearly understood the gospel, knew all of that.
00:06:45.420
But there was a fervor in his life and a knowledge of the scripture that blew me away.
00:06:54.860
And then when I realized he was interested in me, I was like, whoa, I'm not interested.
00:07:00.540
And I do remember going to one of my friends and I said, I think Carl really likes me.
00:07:06.260
I think maybe he's like serious about me and that scares me.
00:07:14.960
And I was like, but God used that simple phrase.
00:07:17.700
And I thought he's everything that I would want because he had a heart for the Lord.
00:07:21.860
I wanted to marry someone whose heart beat for the Lord.
00:07:30.180
I've never seen a bolder person with the gospel.
00:07:32.980
I always tell people he'll lead a tree to Christ because he's just that available to share the gospel.
00:07:39.340
And he was such a strong leader that that's what drew me to him.
00:07:43.180
And so when he, and that's, I guess, when you ask the question, when you know, you know.
00:07:47.020
And I always tell young women to make sure your heart beats for the Lord, that you are seeking him with all of your heart, that you're just not waiting for someone to drop from the sky, that you're not just putting all your hopes and dreams into a man.
00:08:02.220
Because if you're not happy, if you're not content as a single woman in your own walk with the Lord, you're not going to be happy as a married woman.
00:08:09.940
Because, you know, women think marriage is going to fix them and fix the longings of the heart.
00:08:16.120
You know, if God has marriage for you, it's a wonderful gift.
00:08:19.320
But the years when you're not married, that's a wonderful gift as well.
00:08:24.000
And God did a lot in my life to prepare me for Carl swooping in.
00:08:30.260
And so, yeah, it was just like when he got serious, it was like the Lord changed my heart.
00:08:41.260
So and then when you see in Ephesians, you know how when Paul gives that whole list about what husbands are supposed to do for their wives?
00:08:48.360
And then very succinctly, right at the end, he says, and you wives see to it that you respect your husbands.
00:08:58.880
Which God still works on me with that, of course.
00:09:06.220
And I wonder what advice you would give to a woman who they fell in love with their husband first.
00:09:22.220
Maybe they were just so romantically involved that they kind of saw each other as equals.
00:09:25.820
And she realized at some point, oh, yeah, I'm called to submit to this person.
00:09:37.380
Or maybe she just doesn't feel that kind of respect that you very naturally felt toward him.
00:09:42.480
Maybe her husband is not a natural leader or for whatever reason.
00:09:49.520
But how do you foster the respect that we're commanded to have when it doesn't come naturally like a feeling for some women?
00:09:58.000
And are you talking about after you're married?
00:10:01.260
Yes, I would say that's a good point of clarity.
00:10:04.080
After you're married or maybe even when you're engaged, when you're realizing, oh, yeah, that's the dynamic we're supposed to have.
00:10:09.320
Well, first, I'll talk I'll speak to you when you're single, because that's an area that you really do need to commit to the Lord.
00:10:15.620
You need to know God's going to God not only calls me to submit to this man, but he calls me to respect him.
00:10:21.260
And then you and then it's just like almost like that sound mind principle that you find Paul telling Timothy you list out is this is if it's a struggle for a young woman when she's single and she's dating someone to have respect for him.
00:10:33.900
It's not going to go away when she gets married, like it's one of those things.
00:10:38.420
And it doesn't mean that, you know, sanctification is a process.
00:10:43.160
But at the same time, if you really don't respect them right now, you need to find out why and then take that to the Lord if so that he can show you clearly.
00:10:52.400
I think I heard a pastor say one time, you know, you either cry now or you cry later.
00:10:57.500
And so sometimes the tears, even if you feel like you're so in love, but you don't respect them.
00:11:01.780
Sometimes that that can be the thing that God shows you that this is not the person for you.
00:11:06.920
But at the same time, it could be that you have to grow and develop in that realm as well.
00:11:12.000
Now, for a married woman, it's a command of the Lord to respect your husband.
00:11:18.780
I mean, it's something like if Jesus said, if you love me, you'll obey me.
00:11:26.140
He is the one who loves me and he loves me will be loved by my father.
00:11:29.300
And I, too, will love him and show myself to him.
00:11:31.380
So he shows you more and more about himself as we obey his command.
00:11:38.660
And sometimes if women are struggling with that, I always encourage women, well, list
00:11:47.000
It's not like you don't respect anything about him.
00:11:54.480
Make a list of those things and then camp on those.
00:11:58.180
And then the more you camp on those and then you tell him the things you respect about him,
00:12:04.300
you actually talk to him and say, I really love it when you do this.
00:12:06.880
Because I'm just saying men, just like we, there's so many things that we crave and we
00:12:16.060
And being as, you know, being married for so long to my husband, I know how to, I know
00:12:22.760
how to tell him things that are important to me, even sometimes.
00:12:25.780
And I'm talking about things in his life that are important to me.
00:12:28.900
Um, even sometimes if I'm mad at him and don't want to tell him, tell him anyway, because
00:12:34.660
there are things that are so, so it's something you have to cultivate.
00:12:36.940
Now, along with that in Titus, when it's, when the scripture says that one of the things
00:12:43.240
older women are to teach the younger women are to love their husbands and of course submit,
00:12:47.300
the assumption there is, is something that needs to be taught that we don't naturally,
00:12:54.720
I mean, we have an instinctive love for our children.
00:12:56.620
We have, we fell in love and we love our husbands, but it's not biblical.
00:13:01.560
We have to be taught as biblical love, biblical respect, biblical, you know, all that whole
00:13:07.020
And so, and it's something that has to be taught.
00:13:09.180
And so that's the other thing that's sometimes I would say, find an older woman who's learned
00:13:16.380
Quick pause to tell you about our first sponsor for the day, and that is Seven Weeks Coffee.
00:13:25.820
Seven Weeks Coffee has raised over $800,000 for pro-life pregnancy centers across the country.
00:13:33.060
10% of every sale of their coffee goes to these pro-life pregnancy centers that are truly saving
00:13:38.720
lives, serving moms and dads in crisis pregnancy situations.
00:13:42.700
Seven Weeks Coffee not only provides amazing, high quality, clean, mold-free, pesticide-free,
00:13:48.760
great tasting coffee, they also honor their mission to be a godly pro-life company by putting
00:13:57.680
It's called Seven Weeks Coffee because at the seven weeks gestation, that little baby,
00:14:02.560
that image bearer of God is the size of a coffee bean.
00:14:06.980
And yet he or she is just as valuable as you and I are.
00:14:11.540
And so that is why they are on a mission to fund the pro-life movement and pregnancy
00:14:20.900
Right now, when you subscribe to Seven Weeks Coffee, so you'll get a box of coffee to your
00:14:25.200
front door every month, you get a free two-pack of their new single-serve brew bags to take
00:14:35.400
You'll get an extra 10% off that sevenweekscoffee.com, code Allie.
00:14:41.540
I'm wondering if there's anyone out there that said, okay, but what does it actually
00:14:49.380
Because we kind of mean different things when we're talking about dating versus marriage.
00:14:56.260
And respect, say you're talking about just the feeling of the respect, kind of like a
00:15:01.180
reverence and awe for, wow, that person's a good leader.
00:15:04.820
And as they're on stage leading people to Christ, I just feel this respect.
00:15:13.000
But when you're dating, it's not the same kind of committed submission that a wife would
00:15:22.440
So if a woman, while she's dating a man, she feels that she doesn't respect him, it could
00:15:27.480
be, and you can tell me what you think about this, A, that as you said, God is showing her,
00:15:32.420
well, this is not really a man that is commanding your respect because he doesn't have this
00:15:39.360
And God is indicating to you that this is not a man that you want to follow.
00:15:43.500
Or it could mean that maybe she's got some internalized feminism, or maybe she's just
00:15:48.580
got some sin there that she's like, you know, I'm a strong, independent woman.
00:15:54.020
He is a godly man, but I don't like the idea of submission at all.
00:15:58.780
That's what you need to distinguish when you're married.
00:16:01.240
If you don't have that respect for the person, is it him or is it you?
00:16:05.500
Versus when you're married, you are called no matter what you feel in the moment to submit,
00:16:14.200
And you were saying something that in that moment of when you're dating or when you're seeing
00:16:21.040
someone, sometimes you have to ask yourself the question, is this a man I can follow?
00:16:26.780
And then to your point, you have to think, is this an issue with me or is this an issue
00:16:32.600
with him or is it an issue that I don't really like what the scripture says?
00:16:36.820
Because a lot of women, they don't really like what the scripture says.
00:16:43.680
I know from speaking for me personally, as I've talked about how I respected Carl first,
00:16:47.800
one of the things I thought I could follow him.
00:16:53.080
And even though I was young and didn't understand nearly what I understand now, but I understood
00:17:01.300
And I knew instinctively because I'm stubborn and I'm opinionated.
00:17:07.240
I knew I needed someone who was stronger than that, who was stronger than I was about those,
00:17:16.020
I couldn't say at that time, I said, oh, I need someone stronger than me.
00:17:19.040
But it was clear that he had a boldness I wanted.
00:17:24.500
He had a clarity and a razor sharp focus that brought me so much clarity even before I loved
00:17:36.540
And let's hang out on that word, submission, since I mean, as someone who has been in women's
00:17:42.460
ministry for a long time, and probably, obviously, as far back as the church was founded, Christians
00:17:51.000
Actually, you could probably go back to creation, that that's part of the curse, that there is
00:17:56.240
But obviously, there was a reason that God through Paul told the church in Ephesus, hey,
00:18:02.720
wives, and the church in Colossae too, you need to submit to your husbands, you need to
00:18:07.240
respect your husbands, and he has a command for husbands to love their wives in a sacrificial
00:18:12.200
way as Christ loved the church, which is a very high and difficult command and big burden
00:18:17.160
But we focus on that one word, submission, and we feel, or some women feel, and maybe all
00:18:22.460
in our flesh have felt at some point, that that is oppression.
00:18:27.600
I feel like you're telling me that I couldn't lead, or I don't have capabilities.
00:18:31.420
So what does that Ephesians 5 word, submission, submit to our husbands as we submit to the Lord,
00:18:40.340
Well, you know, it's interesting that when you were talking about how women often say,
00:18:45.360
There's so much emphasis on how they feel about what God's word says, rather than, hey,
00:18:50.740
I just want to obey the Lord, I want to obey Him.
00:18:53.880
Now, as you were talking about those passages, it came to my mind, 1 Peter 3, of course, because
00:19:00.020
that's huge when you think about this whole subject of submission, because that was written
00:19:04.640
at a time when these women were coming to faith in Christ, their husbands, maybe not,
00:19:11.240
maybe they come to faith, but they're still disobedient to the word.
00:19:16.220
But, and it's like, it's a natural thing of like, well, I'm a Christian now, do I still,
00:19:23.100
And when you see that in connection with the other sister passages that you just talked
00:19:28.140
about, you see that the issue there is how Peter takes that and he says, no, you still
00:19:37.680
But he's saying, because you're living with this man, this is the paraphrase, but you're
00:19:42.420
living with this man, and as he observes your chaste and respectful behavior, he is going
00:19:48.320
to be one without a word by the behavior of the wife.
00:19:53.520
Now, it doesn't mean when he says without a word that she doesn't talk, but the emphasis
00:20:01.000
there is that she's not just preaching to him all the time.
00:20:08.660
She is living in a way that shows him respect, that she is loving him the way God says to
00:20:15.440
do it, and then God uses that because he lives with her.
00:20:18.480
Then when you continue in that passage, you see the very next part, he talks about the
00:20:24.040
holy women of old, and he specifically holds up Sarah as an example.
00:20:27.920
Now, he talks about the other women as well, but he specifically talks about Sarah and how
00:20:33.500
she respected, submitted to her husband, even calling him Lord, and of course, that's just
00:20:41.660
But, and she did what was right, the scripture says, without being frightened by any fear.
00:20:46.700
Now, so that should make any woman who wants to obey the Lord say, I need to know Sarah's
00:20:52.560
And some of these other women, you study Sarah's life.
00:20:55.340
She, I mean, Abraham, she's married to him, and he is the father of the faithful, and he's,
00:21:01.500
you know, and he had a trajectory always going toward the Lord, but he had some times in his
00:21:04.980
life where I just say, sometimes I'll tease my husband and say, you threw me in the harem
00:21:11.220
Just, you know, and because he threw her in the harem twice.
00:21:16.920
So when he says, not being frightened by any fear, she had every reason to fear.
00:21:20.180
But the scripture says she put her hope in God, but she still, as you study her life,
00:21:26.880
she was an opinionated woman, but she submitted to her husband.
00:21:30.020
Times when she shouldn't, she knew when to speak up, when then God tells Abraham, you
00:21:35.500
You know, it's just studying her life gives so much clarity about those questions about
00:21:41.280
submission, not being a doormat, not just him telling you what to do, when to speak,
00:21:46.400
when not to speak, when God's going to protect you, even if his leadership might be
00:21:50.180
not be the best in the moment, letting him fail.
00:21:54.280
Now I say let, I don't mean letting, we let them do things.
00:21:58.000
But without nagging and saying, I told you so, do this, do this, do this, and trying
00:22:03.600
It's like getting out of the way and just letting the Lord.
00:22:05.760
And that comes down to a woman respecting the God who is over her rather than just this
00:22:12.780
man and that he's going to protect and take care of you as you obey him, as you said,
00:22:21.060
not sin issues, but as you obey him, then he will take care of not only you, but he'll
00:22:30.880
And then you're on your knees praying for him, that he would lead well, that he would
00:22:33.940
make good godly decisions, that he would have your best interest at heart, that we have
00:22:39.680
Because sometimes that's one of the things too, that young women, and I know for me, you
00:22:44.080
get in the way of them with their children, with your children, is like, he says this and
00:22:50.260
And, you know, there's all kinds of ways that, yeah.
00:22:55.040
And I think that's true even in the church, you know, of women's ministry in the church.
00:22:59.680
Women so often, and I'm a woman, so I can say this, we think we know better.
00:23:21.000
But God has established them to give leadership, and they need more than anything good godly women
00:23:27.620
who respect that and will help them accomplish what God has called them to do.
00:23:38.640
Adele Natural Cosmetics is just one of my favorite companies.
00:23:43.620
I love their essential everyday cleanser, their essential moisturizing spray.
00:23:48.380
I love their moisture-based foundation, bronzer, stick, blush.
00:23:54.320
It's a Christian, pro-life, family-owned company.
00:23:57.020
They handcraft everything with the most natural ingredients in the state of Texas.
00:24:02.120
Their Blue Lagoon line is ultra-luxurious and very moisturizing.
00:24:06.500
And right now, they're a Blue Lagoon face balm.
00:24:11.140
If you make an order of $135 or more, this is a worthwhile, a very worthwhile investment
00:24:21.080
It's really hard to find skincare that smells good, feels good, but doesn't have any synthetic
00:24:26.760
And you get that at this Christian-owned company, Adele Natural Cosmetics.
00:24:32.780
Use code ALI at checkout for 25% off your first-time purchase.
00:24:41.140
Sometimes we feel, and I don't know if this is just a female thing, but certainly in the
00:24:48.420
context of being a wife, wanting to follow her husband, we think that we can out Holy
00:24:55.600
Actually, if I tell him to do this, it would be better than if the Holy Spirit told him
00:25:00.700
to do it because I speak so clearly and I can do it right now.
00:25:04.220
I can think about a time when I was like, okay, you know what?
00:25:07.460
It's going to be a tough conversation, but I'm going to say that this has really been bothering
00:25:13.780
And I had this monologue that I was going to repair.
00:25:16.140
And then something, I would say the Holy Spirit, I was just like exercising one day, stopped
00:25:20.260
me and was like, I have not prayed that the Lord would help me with this.
00:25:24.040
I haven't prayed that the Lord would convict over this if this is something that needs to
00:25:27.340
be convicted about for him, or maybe it's me that needs to be convicted.
00:25:31.520
And I will say, and I'm not saying that this is how it goes immediately every time, but
00:25:37.500
very quickly, I saw some answers to that prayer without me saying anything.
00:25:42.720
And that is certainly not to be a story of, oh, look at Allie's righteousness.
00:25:46.840
That is like one of probably many times that I've gotten it wrong.
00:25:50.040
But I can remember that distinct moment of holding my tongue and saying, let me pray about
00:25:56.180
And maybe if the Lord compels me and convicts me to say something, then maybe it is time.
00:26:06.960
And man, I've probably done the opposite and gotten that wrong many, many times.
00:26:11.900
But so much better that way, actually, because there was no fight.
00:26:16.460
There was no questioning of, well, do you, you know, is this kind of, does it feel like
00:26:23.400
That's the benefit of waiting on the Lord to do something is that it actually resolves
00:26:32.840
It builds your spiritual muscle to trust God the next time as well.
00:26:36.720
And another thing that, as you're saying that, is another thing that I try to help young women
00:26:42.300
and I try to practice in my own life is like only talk about the things that are, like,
00:26:47.540
don't nag him about everything, you know, because then we're just background noise.
00:26:52.100
But then if it's like, this is really important to me and I need you, I'm your helper, and
00:26:59.580
But if I'm not doing that about everything, he has ears to hear.
00:27:02.640
And then he respects me and, you know, wants to hear what I have to say.
00:27:07.420
And for me personally, I always say, you don't have to listen.
00:27:13.420
And I think you would do well to listen to me on this, but I trust you and God's leading
00:27:19.640
And that's, again, a spiritual muscle you have to build with time as part of that sanctification.
00:27:25.100
I love what you said that it comes down to really trusting God, not just trusting your
00:27:29.860
husband, because the question I'm sure you've gotten a lot as being a pastor's wife is, well,
00:27:38.740
I can't possibly respect that or submit to that or follow that.
00:27:42.920
But what you're saying, which is very convicting for all of us, is that it's really not about
00:27:47.920
mostly about your husband and what he's doing on a day-to-day basis.
00:27:51.580
It's really about whether or not you trust God.
00:27:54.420
And the example of Abraham is a perfect one because he had his issues.
00:27:59.840
And I love that passage, though, just to reiterate how it says, she hoped in God.
00:28:08.440
If we just take a step back and think she's in a harem, she could be mistreated, but God
00:28:16.020
It's just like, I mean, God took care of her and then dealt with Abraham.
00:28:21.740
So I'm just saying, it's like there's so many times in decisions over the years, it's
00:28:26.500
like I am frightened by a lot of fears and the fear.
00:28:30.940
Sometimes it might be in leadership or the way what my husband's deciding or which direction
00:28:37.120
But if my hope is in God, then I trust the authority that he's placed over me.
00:28:41.480
And there's nothing wrong with calling our husbands our authority.
00:28:44.640
I know women don't like that, but I'm just saying every place there's, you know, my husband
00:28:48.640
always says, you know, if there's two heads, it's a monster.
00:28:52.720
And so, you know, anyway, no, that's a really good, that's a really good picture.
00:29:00.640
I mean, it's even like a company, whenever I see, oh, this company is transitioning to
00:29:09.460
It's just not, but even more so in a family, because you've got so many intimate things
00:29:14.520
that you are dealing with and deciding and all of that.
00:29:19.400
I'm curious about your life as a pastor's life.
00:29:22.940
So after y'all got married, he was already in the ministry, but when did he become a pastor?
00:29:28.140
Well, when we first got married, we're still on staff with Crusade, went to Duke University
00:29:32.080
and worked there for five years with Campus Crusade.
00:29:39.600
And then during those five years, he just really sensed he wanted to go to seminary and be
00:29:49.900
So we were there at Duke five years, and then we moved and came to Dallas, and he went
00:30:22.780
And then while we were in Dallas, he served as pastor of evangelism at Lake Point Church
00:30:31.660
The first time they had elders, they were moving towards an elder form of government.
00:30:35.920
And he was one of the elders there with Steve Stroop, who was the former pastor there.
00:30:42.200
And it was while there that he was beginning to have his resumes to be a pastor.
00:30:48.880
And he could have, there was a church in Richardson that had, was seeking him, but this church
00:30:56.640
And it was just through those steps, we went to Beaufort.
00:31:01.880
So what has it been like being a pastor's wife?
00:31:05.140
I guess it looks different for different kinds of people and the different giftings that
00:31:10.400
But you have taken on a role of teaching women and discipleship for women.
00:31:16.000
Well, it came about when we first got to Beaufort.
00:31:21.560
And I guess because of a new pastor, some of the women who had been doing things were
00:31:27.020
You know, they were having, I don't know what all they had at that point, but they wanted
00:31:36.280
And I did, I was a trained leader with Precept.
00:31:40.880
And so I did one Bible study in the evenings, but I, it was like halfway through that Bible
00:31:47.560
study, I realized this is not the right season for me to be leaving my home at night.
00:31:57.180
But then I thought I'm not, I'm not going to do this.
00:32:02.600
So I was teaching children's Sunday school classes.
00:32:05.360
And by the way, I will say this, teaching children's Sunday school classes is how I learned
00:32:11.040
the Bible even more because I took it seriously.
00:32:14.260
And, and I learned so much teaching children's Sunday school classes, but lay that aside.
00:32:21.420
We had a lot of young families come into the church.
00:32:26.940
And then some of the younger families, they, now my children were young, um, you know,
00:32:32.300
like maybe 12 and under Jameson was not born yet.
00:32:40.500
But some of them were asking me if I would, if I would teach a mothering Bible.
00:32:46.900
So I said, okay, I could do that as my season of life.
00:32:50.020
And so then I started, I did it in my home and it was like, I opened it up and it was
00:32:54.500
just because again, we didn't have a building, but it just exploded in the sense that, whoa,
00:33:00.040
I mean, women were sitting around on the stairs.
00:33:06.100
In fact, some of the early women who are still in our church, they said, I still have
00:33:09.300
the handouts, you know, because I would hand them, I would write it and just hand them
00:33:14.880
And, um, anyway, and so then I started doing that, but I did it in my home and my children
00:33:19.380
and even my daughter and my son, they would like do refreshments.
00:33:23.380
And then, then when, after Jameson was born, they would, um, watch him once they welcomed
00:33:28.460
all the ladies and they would watch him up in the, um, upstairs, um, during his nap time
00:33:33.960
and they would be quiet and all that stuff while I taught that Bible study.
00:33:42.500
Then when we got our building, my husband said, you need to teach that at the church because
00:33:46.940
it's more centrally located and more women could come.
00:33:50.040
And then he said, um, now after a while, see, he just made me do everything and I submitted.
00:33:57.160
Then he said, um, he said, I want you to do that.
00:34:00.300
He said, I want you to think about doing that as a Friday night, Saturday thing.
00:34:06.360
Cause he saw how, you know, he saw what was going on.
00:34:10.240
Cause I didn't just talk about how to mother children.
00:34:14.080
I talked about, you know, the foundations that the foundations are gone.
00:34:21.280
And then I remember doing that the first time it was a Friday night and a Saturday, a conference
00:34:26.540
And I remember thinking, okay, this is recorded.
00:34:34.420
And then from that, it was like, we started having twice a month.
00:34:40.020
Cause I, at my stage of life, I didn't want to do it every week.
00:34:42.860
Um, so I started that and then little by little, it just, it just grew into what it
00:34:50.720
But I also understand from scripture that women's ministry in the church should be under
00:34:59.420
the authority of the church, under the authority of pastors and elders, not just women off doing
00:35:04.420
their own thing and kind of going rogue and deciding they're going to do what they want to
00:35:08.440
And they don't even, you know, the, a pastor, a shepherd is called to guard the flock.
00:35:15.020
So it matters what the women are teaching other women.
00:35:19.780
It matters what speakers, where they're going and what they're doing.
00:35:24.200
And they care about that to give oversight to it, not in a controlling way, but just the
00:35:36.020
So if we understand our role in the home, it's like, that's a microcosm of what women's
00:35:43.140
A helper, a being committed to the overall mission and vision of the church and being a
00:35:48.940
part of that and seeing how we as women can help the church as a whole and help the leadership
00:35:59.100
And I love how much your husband was like, yes, this is great and encouraged it and wanted
00:36:12.620
Most schools we know, unfortunately, are indoctrinating kids with progressive values.
00:36:18.220
They're not even teaching them how to think, how to problem solve, how to analyze history
00:36:24.380
They're just telling them what to think, and they're teaching everything through the lens
00:36:30.400
If you don't want your kids to be indoctrinated in that way, then you need to check out Freedom
00:36:36.340
It is a fully accredited online school for children, kindergarten to high school.
00:36:41.440
The curriculum centers around Judeo-Christian values.
00:36:43.940
It follows the classical Christian model, free from state or common core curricula.
00:36:49.140
This is a great way to have a flexible education schedule for your child, but to ensure they
00:36:54.480
are getting top-notch education, really being told how to think, to critically think, to problem
00:37:02.620
And they're just being educated through the lens of what is actually right and wrong and
00:37:09.880
So this is a great way to bolster what your kids are already learning from you, and you get
00:37:16.480
Go to freedomforschool.com, save 15% all courses when you use code ALLIE15.
00:37:32.540
When you were teaching specifically about motherhood, family discipleship, I know that
00:37:37.680
you talked about teaching through the whole Bible, which I totally agree, all of it is
00:37:41.380
relevant to motherhood and homemaking and being a wife and mom.
00:37:44.420
What specifically were you teaching moms in that stage of life about how to raise their
00:37:51.180
I know that's a big question, but just some tips, because we've got a lot of young moms
00:37:57.600
Well, the things I covered in that Bible study, which I still do, because I still teach it
00:38:01.860
periodically at my church, because we have a whole new generation.
00:38:05.280
As long as I've been in ministry and as old as I am, it's like, whoa, we've got all these
00:38:09.200
20s and 30s now that weren't here before, and I need to keep it because God's Word, you
00:38:17.520
But anyway, I started out with a culture of confusion.
00:38:22.820
Now, when I started this, it was back in the 90s, but it was like our world's falling apart.
00:38:27.460
And even in the church, there's like not that many, I don't know, you're trying to look for
00:38:33.460
good role models or even people who are willing to mentor you or that you could learn from.
00:38:38.980
So I had a burden for that, that I remember even as a young mom, and this is when we lived
00:38:45.580
in Texas, I remember like wanting an old, I wanted the older woman of Titus in my life.
00:38:53.320
Now, our church was great, but there wasn't, I just remember telling the Lord, I want to
00:39:04.920
I want to make decisions now and do what I can now to be this woman who can give back
00:39:11.420
to my daughter, my daughter's-in-law, to the young women who are coming up behind me and
00:39:17.320
who will be the person that will give them truth from Scripture, not just what they want
00:39:22.560
to hear, and pat them on the back and say, but to tell them what they need to hear, and
00:39:27.420
of course, pat them on the back when that's warranted.
00:39:30.940
But so I talked about a culture of confusion, and then the, and I talked about God's word
00:39:37.620
And I laid the foundation from Genesis in that first session in terms of, you know, when
00:39:43.500
God created woman, He created her with the nurturing heart.
00:39:48.560
We know that, but it's still in our DNA, little girls, mother, babies, single women.
00:39:54.260
Think about how many it is women who are teachers in the schools.
00:39:58.560
It's because they, because we nurture, we mother.
00:40:01.020
It's so, it's part of our DNA, even if we never get married and never have children,
00:40:05.980
And all little children look up to women as mothers.
00:40:12.440
They automatically feel safer toward the woman.
00:40:18.020
And so I wanted to build the foundation from that, from Genesis, and even build from there,
00:40:25.840
When man and woman sinned, it marred it, but God didn't give up on them.
00:40:40.080
Even at the end of chapter three, after they've sinned, when Adam looks at his wife and he calls
00:40:46.280
her the mother of all the living, that's after sin.
00:40:52.280
That's when you know there's going to be struggles, but it's like, no, you're still
00:41:00.660
And of course, we also know from Genesis chapter three, that's when we see the foreshadowing of
00:41:05.000
Christ, you know, and we see too that God clothed them and that, and then we also know, because
00:41:10.180
we know that Christ is going to come through a woman.
00:41:17.160
So I lay that foundation in the, in the first session.
00:41:21.320
And then the next session, I deal with the real problems of motherhood and it's not the
00:41:27.840
And I talk about our sin nature that when, you know, when Carl and I got married, we're two
00:41:39.560
We think, you know, if we just do everything right, it's just going to be smooth sailing.
00:41:42.880
We see all the social media photos of everybody being so wonderful.
00:41:47.420
But if you have a sin nature, it's going to rock the boat.
00:41:51.940
I also like share the gospel in that session for women who think they're believers, but
00:41:58.440
And then I talk about the role of the Holy Spirit that God, that he lives in us.
00:42:03.980
This is what he comes to do in our lives and how that relates specifically to mothering.
00:42:13.400
I call it replacement thinking, but it's from Colossians chapter three.
00:42:17.640
We let the word of Christ richly dwell within you.
00:42:21.180
As Ephesians says, you look at those sister passages and he always says, put this off,
00:42:29.540
So I talk about that and specifically how that relates to being a mom in the home and
00:42:34.560
how do we make theology come alive in our homes?
00:42:38.220
Because if we can live it out in the home, you know, that's where the rubber meets the
00:42:43.260
You and I can be like just so sweet to each other, but it's how am I in my home, you know?
00:42:54.280
Then I go through some things like babies and toddlers and, you know, I go through each
00:43:01.880
It's not like I'm arriving at this, like I've arrived and I'm an expert, but these are the
00:43:05.820
things, this is what I'm holding onto for dear life.
00:43:08.780
In fact, when I was young in my thirties, writing that material, I told the women, the
00:43:15.320
I mean, but this is what I'm holding onto for dear life.
00:43:20.800
And what were some of those things for the baby and toddler stage?
00:43:23.640
Oh, well, one is the, I always call it the R word, relax.
00:43:28.540
Always just say it's okay to have a, you know, I, I talk about the fact that God doesn't
00:43:35.100
Now, when you have a newborn, you got to do it just like this.
00:43:40.400
And, and, you know, like, cause I remember for me when I was having my babies, there's
00:43:44.480
so many opinions like, oh, whether or not you should carry them and wear a sling.
00:43:48.920
And I did care, you know, oh, whether or not you should, they should be sleeping in a separate
00:43:58.380
You know, Mary and Joseph had Jesus in a stable and then it laid him in a manger.
00:44:04.980
And, you know, and then you think about the whole global, the whole world about how women
00:44:12.280
God gives us an instinct, a natural God given instinct, but has to be brought under the control
00:44:18.900
So I always say things like, if it's not a thus say of the Lord issue, you're your child's
00:44:26.060
You can decide if you want to carry them in a sling or if you read, and I'm saying that
00:44:30.860
cause I carry Jameson in a sling, you can decide those things.
00:44:36.840
You can research things to see what's best for your family.
00:44:43.620
And even something that helped me when I had my first baby, because I was so like the back
00:44:49.140
then it was like, they need to be in a separate room, or at least this is what I was hearing.
00:44:54.120
You need to train them to soothe themselves, all this stuff.
00:44:58.520
And I remember one time I was so stressed over that and I was talking to my grandmother
00:45:02.860
and I just said, I just, you know, I'm just, I want him in my room.
00:45:07.420
And she said, Audrey, we didn't have a separate room.
00:45:14.860
It was just as this young 22 year old woman, it was like, yeah, I immediately moved him
00:45:25.620
But I'm saying that was just something in that you learn with time and an older woman helping
00:45:30.460
It's like, and she would say, you just do with your God given instincts and what you
00:45:36.380
And you're always going to be growing and learning, but trust yourself because God trusts you with
00:45:43.340
He gave you that baby and he's going to use you in the process.
00:45:47.460
So yeah, that's something, I mean, certainly the jury is still out on me because my kids
00:45:53.840
Um, and I, but by the time you have number three, you have already learned a lot.
00:46:01.720
It has only been five or six years total that you've been a mom.
00:46:06.100
You already, or at least for me, I can't speak for everyone, but you've learned to let
00:46:12.200
go of all of the anxieties that you had as a first time mom.
00:46:16.400
First of all, I don't have the energy and capacity to worry about all of the things that
00:46:21.420
I worried about as a first time mom, but also you build confidence.
00:46:29.040
Like having the sniffles is not a life or death situation where I have to freak out about that.
00:46:36.960
Also, when you've gone through hard times, this is true about life in general, you can
00:46:40.500
apply it to so many things, but certainly motherhood.
00:46:43.020
I went through that really hard time where all of my kids were really sick and it was really
00:46:48.660
And the next time you meet a child, you're like, okay, well, this is not as hard as that.
00:46:56.060
And there's a lot of benefit even to listening to friends who are just like a couple of years
00:47:02.000
And I also realized I have friends who are first time moms who are, they're telling me
00:47:09.080
I felt that, but you're going to be totally fine.
00:47:16.660
I mean, it's really important and you don't have to be a perfect, perfect mom.
00:47:21.440
There's no such thing or be completely done with motherhood to lend wisdom to people who
00:47:29.600
And I love the fact of telling them you're going to be fine.
00:47:31.920
I always talk about first Kings three when, you know, Solomon goes to the Lord and he
00:47:42.040
I need wisdom, you know, cause, and that's what he says is, I don't know how to go in
00:47:55.040
Not like, Oh, am I going to have the best like crib?
00:47:57.880
Am I going to have the best, whatever it is, the best, you know, food.
00:48:01.560
It's just like, Lord, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:48:09.740
And then if a mom will stay on her knees and I literally mean that I'm not using that as
00:48:18.660
Sometimes with my kids, if it was something, I don't know, homeschooling them at different
00:48:22.460
times or whatever, sometimes they don't really, they didn't know when I was eating the carpet,
00:48:28.060
but there were things that were burdening me that I, but what I mean is just be, be humble
00:48:33.920
before the Lord and cry out to him for his help because, you know, scripture says, draw
00:48:40.940
God is attracted to our neediness, you know, that we need him and he will help us.
00:48:47.500
What nation has a God so near that he will respond to us when we call out to him.
00:48:52.100
And we, if we call out to him, he will come to our aid, even in the simplest things of,
00:49:06.200
Well, should I, should I, um, whatever it is, it's like, Lord, I need your help.
00:49:12.680
Do we not think God will come to our aid and help us even in this task of mothering?
00:49:16.920
You know, Mary had to think that and she's raising the perfect child.
00:49:23.220
But I think sometimes that's the thing I always want to encourage moms in the most.
00:49:27.640
And I need it myself, even as I'm parenting, still the parent of, I'm not parenting adult
00:49:32.220
children, but I have adult children of like, Lord, I need your help.
00:49:36.420
When to, I don't want to be intrusive in their lives.
00:49:41.280
I need your help even to be involved in that way.
00:49:47.860
Gosh, I think that this kind of discipleship and mentorship is so needed within the church.
00:49:55.560
There are a lot of women's ministries and, you know, all of them are different.
00:50:00.620
And I obviously don't know every women's ministry that exists, but it does seem like there is
00:50:05.600
a deficit of this kind of teaching, specifically about motherhood today.
00:50:11.060
And I just, a lot of the conferences and the books that are targeting women are really more
00:50:18.160
about like self-esteem and they're really more about like the self.
00:50:21.820
And I'm not saying that we should never talk about our problems with anxiety or self-loathing
00:50:28.920
The gospel does speak to all of those things, but just like practical guidance on motherhood
00:50:35.860
I don't know if I see a lot of local churches, and I've been to a lot of them, like having
00:50:41.340
systems in place to make sure that kind of mentorship is happening.
00:50:45.860
And we need it just as much as, you know, any Christian generation has ever needed that.
00:50:50.940
And maybe it's, you know, a millennial problem.
00:50:58.480
I'm not sure what it is, but I just, I do see a need for that.
00:51:02.880
So if someone is listening or watching and they're like, okay, I want something like
00:51:07.900
I want to connect with the grandmothers and young moms, the older women and the younger
00:51:17.100
Well, you know, again, when I mentioned earlier that it kind of came about organically in our
00:51:22.340
church and what I mean by that is I understood and I studied myself personally the book of Titus.
00:51:29.400
Now, when I was growing up, I never heard it taught.
00:51:32.340
And maybe it was, and I just didn't have ears to hear.
00:51:35.040
But I do remember as a very young mom, we were in our church, in a church in North Carolina.
00:51:40.800
And I'd never heard of John MacArthur prior to this.
00:51:45.240
But they brought in a video series that he did.
00:51:53.300
And I was like mesmerized by the home, what he was teaching on the home.
00:52:03.780
Well, then when the, but what I learned is a lot of the women in the church got mad about
00:52:11.420
And the pastor apologized and they didn't show any more of that series.
00:52:16.360
And I'm not, again, I'm not trying to throw shade on that.
00:52:24.380
No, what I'm saying, it was a series by John MacArthur.
00:52:31.300
But I wanted to hear the, I was like, wow, I don't, I don't think I would have expected
00:52:44.940
And so I began to study it and just realize, and here's the thing, and this is what I would
00:52:49.680
say, you know, just in general, in terms of women's ministry in the church.
00:52:54.280
When, you know, Titus is a pastoral epistle, just like first and second Timothy, Paul is writing
00:53:01.560
And in those epistles, he said, he covers every single group in the church, every single one.
00:53:06.940
Now, Titus is great because he, it's very succinct.
00:53:12.400
First chapter deals with leadership in the church, qualified leadership and why they're
00:53:16.880
Second chapter, the first half of it deals with groups in the church.
00:53:19.740
And then it goes on, talks about the appearing of our great God and Savior.
00:53:24.120
And then to remember who we were before we came to Christ as the third chapter.
00:53:26.720
But in that second chapter, he's talking about what's supposed to happen with groups in the
00:53:32.780
And in that, you see the older women, the younger women are included in that in terms of what
00:53:39.880
Now, that does not mean what a lot of women think and what I've faced over the years when
00:53:43.100
people think, oh, you just teach Titus 2, 3 to 5 all the time.
00:53:46.480
No, well, I could teach it all the time because I could teach to love your husbands and I could
00:53:56.880
I could look at tons of passages and teach from that lens.
00:54:01.100
But no, it's not just teaching that list, but it's teaching the Bible through that lens.
00:54:06.920
You know, that you're helping women learn how to take that theology that they're learning
00:54:13.080
from other, from books of the Bible and putting feet to it.
00:54:16.640
For example, this just, you know, I teach a women's Sunday school class.
00:54:20.860
They call them adult, you know, they're called adult Bible fellowships now.
00:54:24.360
And my husband is teaching the gospel of Mark right now.
00:54:27.700
And I just told our women, I want to follow along with the gospel of Mark.
00:54:32.640
We're going to, and, you know, teach it, follow behind him.
00:54:37.480
And one of the women in the class said, oh, I'm so excited for this because I love all of
00:54:43.760
But now it's like, we'll know how to practically live it out as women.
00:54:49.140
That's kind of like taking my role as a woman, kind of like what a woman does in the home.
00:54:54.720
The father like says, this, this, and this, and the woman helps flesh it out.
00:55:00.700
And this, let's take what your dad just said, and let's, you know, it's the way you work
00:55:04.760
And so it's that same type of thing with, if, if women understand what women are to
00:55:11.640
do in the church, that has, it's like, that's the perspective, that's the overview.
00:55:19.960
For example, too, I teach, we call it woman's life at our church, and it's not every single
00:55:24.580
We have focus time in the fall, focus time in the spring.
00:55:27.720
And I just, you know, I mean, I, I teach all kinds of things.
00:55:31.640
I just did a series called seasons of a woman's life.
00:55:33.800
But I taught the whole book of Song of Solomon last year, and I taught that, but I taught
00:55:41.320
And there's marriage, and there's courtship, and there's dating, and there's like, you're
00:55:45.300
fighting in your marriage, and then how they, how they work it out, and all those kinds of
00:55:49.920
So to answer that question, it's like understanding the big picture, and then teaching from that
00:55:57.840
You know, it's kind of like, you know, even pastors, they understand Genesis to Revelation,
00:56:03.640
But then when they teach the Gospel of Mark, or they teach Malachi, it's through the lens
00:56:09.900
of the whole Bible, God's story, if that makes sense.
00:56:20.540
If people want to hear more from you, they can listen to your podcast.
00:56:28.240
Well, I know people are going to be flocking to that because you are just so easy to listen
00:56:33.400
Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
00:56:42.240
As we close out, I just want to remind you to subscribe to Blaze TV.
00:56:48.540
You will get a discount on your subscription to Blaze TV.
00:56:54.260
You will get access to all subscriber exclusive content.
00:57:00.340
It's just amazing stuff what the creators at Blaze TV are putting out.
00:57:03.840
Just really good, hard-hitting journalism, intriguing conversations that you can't get anywhere else.