Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1192 ｜ Why Women Are Obsessed with True Crime ｜ Guest： Andrew Klavan

00:00:00.560 Why are women obsessed with true crime? 1.00

00:00:04.220 And what does it say about the human heart?

00:00:06.860 It turns out darkness has a lot to teach us about the light.

00:00:10.940 Andrew Clavin's new book, The Kingdom of Cain, is all about how darkness and depravity

00:00:16.760 can point us to the source of goodness and truth in God himself.

00:00:23.060 This is a fascinating conversation.

00:00:25.100 He also gets into the details of his own testimony and coming to faith.

00:00:30.640 You are going to love this.

00:00:33.040 This episode is brought to you by a new sponsor, Keksi Cookies.

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00:01:07.380 Before we get into that, let me remind you to sign up for Share the Arrows 2025, October

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00:02:26.840 Andrew, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:02:35.380 My first question, it's very basic.

00:02:37.780 What is the Kingdom of Cain?

00:02:41.060 I'm afraid this is the Kingdom of Cain.

00:02:44.360 It is the world in which there's so much evil, in which we're basically, as C.S. Lewis said,

00:02:49.600 in enemy territory, that we're not living in, most of us, I hope, surround ourselves with

00:02:55.880 nice people.

00:02:56.920 But when you look out in the broader picture, there's evil kind of baked into the system of

00:03:01.140 the world.

00:03:02.000 And so I call this the Kingdom of Cain, because it's obviously not God's kingdom.

00:03:05.820 It's a fallen world.

00:03:07.680 So obviously, for people who don't know, Kingdom of Cain is a reference to the first murder

00:03:15.380 that we see in the Bible, and the murder between brothers.

00:03:19.460 And you know, I was thinking about this.

00:03:21.260 I'm going to put you on the spot as I play out a theological thought I had the other day

00:03:25.580 and see what you think about it.

00:03:26.940 So I was just thinking, actually, on Mother's Day about how Mary, birthing Jesus, redeemed

00:03:32.520 so much from the sin that we see, starting with Eve.

00:03:36.620 And I was thinking about how Cain killed Abel.

00:03:41.220 So Eve's fruit that she bore killed Abel, his brother.

00:03:47.240 But Jesus was killed to make us brothers.

00:03:51.440 And so I know we're talking about the darkness of Cain, but the redemption that we see through

00:03:56.740 Jesus being murdered after Cain was the original murderer, it's really beautiful. 0.98

00:04:03.140 So there's a lot of darkness as we talk about the Kingdom of Cain.

00:04:06.340 But it shines light on the redemption that we see in Christ, right?

00:04:10.940 I think that that's exactly right.

00:04:12.680 And this is kind of what the whole book is about.

00:04:14.700 The killing of Abel by Cain is the first thing that happens in history.

00:04:19.680 Before that, there's the Garden of Eden and the fall of man.

00:04:23.220 But that's kind of outside of history.

00:04:24.600 That's before history begins.

00:04:25.860 History begins with Cain's murder of Abel.

00:04:28.980 And it sets the pattern of so much of human life, the envy, the struggle between good and

00:04:35.100 evil, the struggle between those who are acceptable to God and those who think that they can become

00:04:39.780 acceptable to God by removing other people, by getting other people out of their way.

00:04:43.900 And that actually plays out throughout the rest of the Old Testament.

00:04:48.500 Almost every story includes a brother battle, you know, of two brothers kind of struggling

00:04:54.780 for supremacy, sometimes more than two brothers, like when you have Joseph, when you have David

00:04:59.840 and his brothers.

00:05:00.960 These are younger brothers who rise up over the older ones, whereas Cain is an older brother

00:05:07.140 who kills his younger brother.

00:05:08.260 So it's almost as if nature and history are trying to work their way back to this point

00:05:14.260 of pre-lapsary and pre-fall humanity.

00:05:19.040 And I think you're absolutely right.

00:05:20.780 A lot of people see the, you know, Jesus is the second Adam and the sort of brother of

00:05:27.020 Adam, as it were, who solves the problem or who opens a doorway, at least, out of history

00:05:32.320 and out of this repeated struggle between good and evil that seems to go down the center

00:05:37.780 of every human heart.

00:05:40.120 I interviewed the co-founder of Wikipedia, Larry Sanger, and his journey to Christ is

00:05:45.160 really interesting.

00:05:45.940 But one of the things he said was that it was actually studying the occult and looking deeply

00:05:51.760 into the evil that we especially see broadcasted through Hollywood.

00:05:56.740 That is what actually started him on the path to realizing that Jesus is true.

00:06:01.780 It was that he saw so much evil that it came to his mind that, okay, if objectively,

00:06:07.780 darkness and evil exist, then objective light and goodness must exist too.

00:06:12.480 And that's something you talk about in your book, that reading these dark stories, understanding

00:06:17.160 evil is actually what points us to what is good and right and true.

00:06:23.560 You know, it's so interesting.

00:06:24.880 That's so close to what happened to me.

00:06:26.460 I mean, I had the experience when I was 19 years old, I was an atheist until I was in

00:06:32.700 my 40s, and I was not baptized until I was 49.

00:06:36.120 So it was a long journey for me.

00:06:38.460 But at 19, I would have called myself an agnostic, but I was a practicing atheist.

00:06:42.740 And I was going to school at a time when the first time that people were starting to teach

00:06:48.580 moral relativity, the idea that, you know, something is good for you, but something else is good

00:06:54.640 for me, and who can tell?

00:06:55.740 There's no absolute morality.

00:06:57.840 And I read a very, very dark novel, which is one of the first novels I mentioned in Kingdom

00:07:02.000 of Cain, which was Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky.

00:07:05.520 It's probably, he's probably the greatest Christian novelist who ever lived.

00:07:09.600 And it is a great, great story, but it's about an axe murder.

00:07:13.020 And as I was reading this story, like I said, I'm 19 years old, I'm sitting at a desk with

00:07:18.420 this paperback in my hand, and there's this horrible murder of these two women of this

00:07:25.020 guy with an axe, and the second woman is afflicted. 0.91

00:07:27.160 She's what we used to call retarded, and he kills her. 0.97

00:07:30.600 And the scene is so pitiful that I immediately thought to myself, no, wait, there is no planet 0.79

00:07:35.640 where this could be good.

00:07:38.000 There's no planet where you, even if everybody on the planet said, oh, this is terrific, this

00:07:42.920 is a great thing to do, it would still be evil.

00:07:45.720 And from that moment on, I think without my knowing it, the kind of prowl of my soul was

00:07:50.480 turned in the direction of God, because I started to understand that there was no argument by

00:07:57.020 which you could say that evil and good were relative to the point where they disappear

00:08:01.880 if you don't believe in them.

00:08:03.020 And the second encounter I had, which was just as important in my life, was much later

00:08:07.880 on in my 30s, I became a complete atheist because of things that had happened in my

00:08:13.220 life, and I started reading atheist philosophy, but I couldn't find any philosophy that made

00:08:18.740 sense of my idea that there was, in fact, a moral order.

00:08:22.900 I couldn't figure out why any atheist would feel that there was a moral order, or if there

00:08:27.380 was, why he would obey that moral order.

00:08:29.560 And then I read one of the most evil books ever written, actually a series of books by

00:08:34.660 the author of the Marquis de Sade, from whom we get the word sadist, and he was a psychopath,

00:08:39.660 but he was also a very good philosopher, and he was an atheist, and he said, look, if you're

00:08:44.060 an atheist, there is no morality. 0.97

00:08:45.980 If there's no God, there's no morality, and we should just follow our nature, and in nature 0.80

00:08:50.200 the strong dominate the weak, and if that gives you sexual pleasure, that's what you should

00:08:54.820 do. 1.00

00:08:55.120 You should rape women, you should torture people, if that gives you pleasure. 1.00

00:08:59.040 And I thought, for the first time in my life, I thought, well, there's an atheist who actually 1.00

00:09:02.800 makes sense, that he's right.

00:09:04.500 If there is no God, there is no morality.

00:09:06.640 And that vision he gave in his books was so horrific to me, I thought to myself, this is

00:09:13.300 hell, this would be hell on earth, that I stopped being an atheist, almost on the instant.

00:09:17.620 I thought, well, I don't know what that, you know, that makes sense to me, and I don't

00:09:20.460 want it, I'm not going there.

00:09:21.560 And the only leap of faith I ever took in my long, long journey to faith was to believe

00:09:27.500 that some things are good and some things are bad.

00:09:29.620 That was it, to believe that it is better to give a beggar bread than it is to torture 1.00

00:09:34.340 a child to death.

00:09:35.320 That was the only leap of faith, and everything else followed from that with absolute logic.

00:09:40.880 And so it was actually confronting the literature of darkness in the great work of Dostoevsky

00:09:46.700 and the insane work of the Marquis de Sade that I started to be forced down the direction

00:09:52.600 to God.

00:09:53.820 How much it must frustrate Satan that even his greatest work ends up repelling so many people

00:10:02.000 right into the hands of the Father.

00:10:05.300 And I'm curious, you said the only leap of faith was going from, okay, you know, right

00:10:10.500 and wrong or relative to there's an objective right and wrong.

00:10:14.140 What about going from there to Jesus?

00:10:17.660 Because some people might say, okay, you can accept the reality of right and wrong, that

00:10:21.180 there's some supernatural power who has made the rules that are somehow embedded on the

00:10:25.360 human heart.

00:10:26.200 But how did you go from that to Jesus is the Son of God and he died for my sins and rose

00:10:31.540 again three days later?

00:10:33.460 Well, it started, as a matter of fact, I mean, what I started to do was to pray.

00:10:38.380 And this took me a long time to get to the point where I could pray.

00:10:42.240 When I started to understand that if there was a moral world, there had to be a God, I

00:10:49.080 was in such mental difficulty.

00:10:51.240 I was still a young man and I was absolutely going, I was going insane.

00:10:55.260 And I'm such a stubborn old cuss even then that I couldn't reach out to God because even

00:11:01.520 though I saw that logically he had to exist, I thought, well, I'm in so much misery. 0.86

00:11:06.240 I was suicidal that it would just be a crutch.

00:11:09.640 It would just be a crutch to believe in this.

00:11:11.920 And so I was fortunate enough and, well, it was really a miracle.

00:11:15.380 It was by God's grace.

00:11:16.380 I went into therapy and had a miraculous turnaround.

00:11:20.540 I've never seen it happen to anybody else.

00:11:22.380 I went in suicidal.

00:11:25.020 And within months, I had started to become absolutely joyful, you know, absolutely put

00:11:30.700 together and joyful.

00:11:31.880 And it was when I was a joyful person, I could say, well, now wait, my logic still adheres.

00:11:37.360 My logic still applies.

00:11:38.920 And so I can now start to think about praying.

00:11:41.480 And I did.

00:11:42.380 I started to pray, you know, very simple prayers.

00:11:45.660 And that changed my entire life.

00:11:48.320 And so now I had a relationship with God.

00:11:50.020 And it went on for five years of prayer.

00:11:52.060 And my life had changed so much that I finally turned to God.

00:11:56.800 And I said, you know, I feel kind of embarrassed that you've done so much for me through prayer.

00:12:03.080 And I'm just nobody.

00:12:04.560 I don't know how I can do anything for you.

00:12:06.860 And it came to me almost instantaneously, well, you should be baptized.

00:12:10.200 And I was driving a car through the hills of Santa Barbara at the moment.

00:12:13.760 And I remember saying a lot, you've got to be kidding me.

00:12:15.900 You know, this would ruin my life.

00:12:17.940 You know, I mean, I have a father who once threatened to disown me.

00:12:20.660 I was born Jewish.

00:12:21.900 And he said, if I ever became a Christian, he would disown me.

00:12:24.820 And I had a career in Hollywood.

00:12:27.300 And I thought, if I have to follow Christian rules, it's going to be very hard to write 0.98

00:12:30.640 some of the scripts they want me to write.

00:12:33.440 And so I knew the Bible well.

00:12:35.440 I knew both Testaments very well.

00:12:37.700 But I went back to the Bible and thought, why would I be baptized?

00:12:41.800 You know, why I'm having a perfectly good relationship with God.

00:12:44.040 Why would I be baptized?

00:12:45.260 And when I read the story, I had read it, I don't know, I had read it a million times.

00:12:50.440 But always as literature.

00:12:51.940 I'd always read it as literature, never with faith.

00:12:54.380 And I thought, well, as an experiment, let me read this as if it really happened.

00:12:58.240 Let me read this as if this were just people reporting on something they had seen.

00:13:02.600 And then the whole book made sense.

00:13:04.620 And I realized that it was really the only way that you could know God was in his form

00:13:11.340 as a human being, because otherwise he's incomprehensible.

00:13:14.760 You can't really know God.

00:13:15.940 You can't really see God.

00:13:17.200 You can only see what God means in human terms.

00:13:22.000 And so when I saw that, I was baptized.

00:13:24.580 That was kind of the thing that I grasped.

00:13:26.500 And I was baptized.

00:13:29.180 And after that, the whole thing just started to become so important and central to my life

00:13:34.640 that it almost explained itself to me in its deeper levels.

00:13:38.060 And as for your dad's reaction, when you did get baptized, what was that?

00:13:45.900 Well, it was very sad, actually.

00:13:48.900 You know, my father and I had never been close.

00:13:50.860 We'd never really gotten along.

00:13:52.380 He was a good man.

00:13:53.800 He was a nice man.

00:13:54.580 But he and I just somehow, we just weren't made for one another.

00:13:57.900 We didn't hit it all.

00:13:59.460 And by that time, I had children of my own.

00:14:02.460 And he was a wonderful grandfather.

00:14:04.260 And so we had made a separate peace.

00:14:06.440 You know, we were at peace with one another.

00:14:08.220 And I thought, oh, this is going to blow up this relationship.

00:14:11.440 This is going to be a terrible thing.

00:14:12.740 But I've got to tell him, because I knew one day I'd give an interview.

00:14:15.340 I didn't want to read about it in a newspaper somewhere.

00:14:18.120 And so I was thinking, well, I really have to tell him before I get baptized.

00:14:23.360 And he came to visit.

00:14:24.540 Me and my mother were living in New York.

00:14:26.440 I was living in California, and he came to visit us in California.

00:14:31.200 And he walked in the door, and he said, I've got to go home, because I'm seeing double.

00:14:35.480 And I almost laughed, because it was a neurotic tick of his, whenever he took a vacation,

00:14:40.500 he would get some hypochondriacal disease, and he would have to cut his vacation short.

00:14:45.260 So I didn't take it seriously at all.

00:14:46.680 But in fact, it turned out to be his final illness.

00:14:49.180 And when I realized that he was very likely going to die, I made the conscious decision not

00:14:54.880 to tell him, because I didn't think it would save his life.

00:14:57.840 I didn't think it would turn his mind.

00:15:00.500 I only thought it would break his heart.

00:15:02.160 And I did not think that that was the right thing to do.

00:15:04.360 And so I never got to tell him.

00:15:05.380 And I was traveling to New York to see a friend of mine who was a priest who was kind of training

00:15:09.820 me for baptism.

00:15:11.280 And I would go from there, and I would visit my father as he deteriorated.

00:15:14.480 And my father died during Holy Week, a time when Holy Week and Passover were on the same 0.95

00:15:21.800 week.

00:15:23.020 And he died.

00:15:24.300 And I remember going back to church and just feeling like I had lost my earthly father,

00:15:28.960 but found my heavenly father.

00:15:30.620 And it was a very, very poignant and sad experience, and still sad to me to this day.

00:15:36.460 Yes, of course.

00:15:37.680 Was your wife a Christian at the point that you became a Christian?

00:15:40.960 No, in fact, she had always said, you know, I'd like to believe, but I just can't.

00:15:46.020 And I have the best wife in the world, so I think I have to put that forward.

00:15:51.780 So she was never like, oh, you shouldn't do this, or you shouldn't take that step or anything

00:15:55.340 like that.

00:15:56.260 But while at the same time this was happening, her mother passed away, and she passed away

00:16:02.600 in my wife's arms.

00:16:04.240 And my wife came home and said, I saw her leave.

00:16:08.500 And that was the beginning for her.

00:16:10.080 And she became a Christian as well.

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00:17:32.700 One thing that you talk about in your book as you're discussing how evil can actually point

00:17:38.140 us to the light and point us to God is today people's fascination with true crime, especially

00:17:44.740 women's fascination with true crime.

00:17:48.020 Maybe this is like the modern Dostoevsky.

00:17:50.800 Not a lot of people today are reading crime and punishment the way they used to.

00:17:55.040 I had to read it in high school, but I don't know if that's still required like it used to be.

00:18:00.220 But a lot of people are still fascinated with evil, whether it's scary movies or true crime.

00:18:04.040 What is behind that, do you think?

00:18:06.700 Well, the whole point of Kingdom of King is to take murders, real life murders,

00:18:11.120 that have been transformed into art again and again.

00:18:13.740 So not just one artist, but movie makers, poets, novelists have taken these particular murders.

00:18:21.020 I pick, there's really four of them in there.

00:18:23.220 I pick four murders and show you how they become art, how they turn to art.

00:18:27.640 And the reason that's important to me is because artists make the world beautiful.

00:18:32.180 They make something beautiful even out of ugliness.

00:18:34.400 So you read Macbeth and it's filled with murder and betrayal and death and all this.

00:18:39.400 But the play itself is very beautiful because it actually presents you these things within that moral order.

00:18:47.580 And I think that's what people are looking for in crime because you're absolutely right, Ali. 0.75

00:18:51.820 This is something I've talked about a lot is that it must be incredibly frustrating to the devil that even the greatest evil he can commit points the way to the sacred.

00:19:02.260 And nowhere is that more true than in murder.

00:19:06.220 Why is it when we see murder, we know we've hit the line.

00:19:09.740 We know that's the place where you can't say, it might be right or it might have been right at some point in time.

00:19:15.520 Or maybe it's right in Venezuela, but it's not right in Morocco. 0.86

00:19:18.780 You know, murder is the place where everybody says, yes, that is evil.

00:19:23.940 Well, why is that?

00:19:24.880 Well, it's because of the sanctity of the human person.

00:19:27.180 It's because each of us has inside ourselves a consciousness that is creating a life, creating an experience, creating a unique road to God.

00:19:39.300 And so continuing the work of Genesis, continuing God's creative work.

00:19:44.200 I mean, God created a creation that continues to create.

00:19:48.140 And when you snuff that out, nothing can make up for that.

00:19:51.160 Nothing can bring that consciousness back.

00:19:53.200 It's unique in this world.

00:19:56.020 It's unique.

00:19:57.080 It's incredibly creative and beautiful.

00:19:59.320 When you abort it in the womb, you destroy an entire life that would have been. 0.98

00:20:03.580 And so I think that people turn to this because it is weirdly reassuring in a way to remind ourselves that there is something that cannot be excused.

00:20:13.740 It cannot be talked away.

00:20:15.740 It's a solid spiritual thing that there is evil in the world.

00:20:20.660 And I know it would be happier if we could say, you know, there is good in the world, there's love in the world.

00:20:25.560 And that's true, too.

00:20:26.380 There is.

00:20:27.020 But there's something about murder that is just an absolutely stark line in the sand.

00:20:32.220 And I think people are fascinated by it in a way because we've lost that sense of a God making things beautiful.

00:20:40.800 I think that people would be better off if they were reading Dostoevsky more and maybe being titillated by true crimes a little less.

00:20:48.400 I think that would be better because it's when the artist, when the mind and heart and soul of the artist engage with murder, that we see it become something beautiful in this larger context, which is what I think God is doing with the world itself.

00:21:00.480 Yes, because I think watching these true crime shows or when I was in high school, my mom and I would watch the Law and Order SVU, which is terrifying.

00:21:08.480 I'm like, why did we do that?

00:21:10.120 But it creates a lot of anxiety.

00:21:13.020 It doesn't really especially immediately create some sort of peace.

00:21:17.760 You're not immediately transferred into thoughts about God and his goodness.

00:21:22.100 You're thinking this is going to happen to me.

00:21:24.460 And I think about the passage in Philippians 4, I think it's verses 4 through 8, that, you know, God through Paul tells us to dwell on that which is lovely and pure and excellent and worthy of praise and to be filled with thanksgiving and to give our burdens to God in prayer.

00:21:42.180 And so there is some sort of balance between looking at darkness, recognizing it for the objective evil that it is, contrast it to God's goodness, and constantly dwelling on the darkness, knowing that it's going to fill us with the kind of fear and paranoia that really isn't good for us.

00:22:01.480 You know, I think there is a difference between those things.

00:22:04.180 And there are works, by the way, that like I would say are not art, you know, pornography immediately leaps to mind, but there are other things on the way to pornography that I think are not art and do not explain anything and do not give any experience.

00:22:17.200 But I think that quote from Philippians, which gets thrown at me a lot because a lot of people write to me and say, you call yourself a Christian and yet you write these books about murder and about, you know, gangsters and evil people.

00:22:27.120 And yes, I do. And I will continue to do that because I think it's really important to have faith in the world as it is.

00:22:34.820 And if you take that quote from Philippians and use it like that song from Peter Pan, you know, like think of the happiest things.

00:22:43.220 It's the same as having wings. I think you have to remember that Peter Pan never grows up.

00:22:46.520 And if your faith never becomes the faith of a grown up person, it's not going to stand up very well when you come into contact with the things that really do happen in this world, not just the evil, but also the suffering, the cruelty.

00:23:02.440 I mean, look, we believe in a God who was crucified. That's a deep, deep thing.

00:23:07.880 That's a very, very tragic truth. And yet the very deepest thing that God does for us is contained within that crucifixion.

00:23:16.720 And I think that, you know, one of the first things it says in Philippians is meditate and dwell on what is true.

00:23:22.840 And what is true is all the beauty we experience, all the good that we experience, all the God that we experience takes place in this very dark world.

00:23:31.580 And so I don't think that that quote is meant to make us fools.

00:23:35.180 I don't think it's meant to make us like childlike fools who only think that good things are going to happen.

00:23:40.440 This is my problem with a lot of modern Christian art, because Christian art at the peak of Christianity, at the time when Christianity was the dominant Western faith and was everywhere to be found, Christian art was not like that at all.

00:23:52.100 When you look at the times when you look at the times when you look at the masses and funeral masses of Mozart and Bach, you're dealing with a great deal of sorrow and darkness and pain and suffering that I think Christianity was meant to address.

00:24:13.260 It's not meant to be, you know, God is not the God of Never Neverland.

00:24:17.240 He's not the God of Candyland.

00:24:18.700 He's the God of this world.

00:24:20.160 And your faith has to be in this world.

00:24:22.720 It has to be the faith in a sad world.

00:24:25.720 And so I think that like, you know, just like if you, all you ever watch about romance and love is romantic comedies, and you begin to think that that's what love is going to be like,

00:24:37.300 you're going to be very disappointed in life because love is much more complex and deep and dark and human than a romantic comedy.

00:24:44.860 And in the same way, if all you ever watch, and I don't attack these films at all, but if all you ever think about is, you know, God is not dead part 12, this time he's really not dead.

00:24:55.100 You know, I think that you are actually going to have a very disappointing view of faith when you're forced to confront the true tragedies and the true suffering and the true evil that all of us at some point have to confront.

00:25:07.800 And so the reason I believe in the arts is because I believe the arts convey, transform this evil and this darkness into a source of light.

00:25:16.880 And I think that that is a beautiful thing.

00:25:19.420 Like I said, I think Macbeth is a beautiful play, but it's a beautiful play about very dark, very ugly things.

00:25:25.100 I think that, you know, the movie Psycho is a great movie, and yet I think it's about something very dark.

00:25:31.220 And I think Crime and Punishment, again, is a dark story, but shines a light on the road forward.

00:25:37.660 And so I think that quote, you know, that verse or those verses can be misused.

00:25:44.100 I think that we should meditate on truth, which also has a beauty of its own.

00:25:48.540 Yes. And obviously, God wants us to read his word, and the Bible is filled with all kinds of very dark and bloody stories, like the murder of Cain and Abel.

00:25:58.580 And if those verses in Philippians 4 were meant to tell us to only focus on temporally happy things, happy things in the moment, then we wouldn't have all of these stories in the Bible that are very bloody and very uncomfortable.

00:26:13.100 But I think we have to read the Bible in the same way that we would have to read a book or watch a movie that contains some of these dark themes as descriptive and not prescriptive.

00:26:24.340 A lot of people criticize Scripture by saying, oh, all these evil things happen.

00:26:28.300 That must mean that God is condoning them.

00:26:30.600 No, it's a description of something that happened.

00:26:33.100 It's not a prescription for what people should be doing.

00:26:36.480 And it sounds like what you're saying in a lot of these stories that contain murder and gangsters, it's not prescribing evil.

00:26:43.520 It is describing evil.

00:26:45.200 This is what evil looks like.

00:26:46.760 And I think we just have to have the right mentality when we are consuming some of those materials to draw the right lessons out of them, right?

00:26:54.080 Yeah, absolutely.

00:26:55.020 I mean, I always like to tell this story when I was working in Hollywood for my sins.

00:27:00.280 I love ghost stories.

00:27:01.980 I've always just loved ghost stories, and ghost stories were very popular at that time.

00:27:04.940 And so I was doing very well in Hollywood, writing ghost stories and selling these scripts.

00:27:09.040 And when you do that, they call you in if they have something that they think is in your wheelhouse, and they pitch you their story and ask you how you would write it.

00:27:18.160 And then if they like your take on it, they hire you.

00:27:20.640 And so you have these pitch meetings.

00:27:22.680 And I went into a pitch meeting, and the guy said, we're going to tell you a story, and we want to hear your take on it.

00:27:27.420 And I said, yeah.

00:27:28.200 And he said, there's a woman, and she gets kidnapped and tortured.

00:27:31.840 And I said, yeah.

00:27:33.220 And they said, that's the story.

00:27:36.440 And I laughed.

00:27:37.700 I said, you know, I don't think I'm going to write that story because in my stories, when a woman is running away from a bad guy, I'm rooting for the woman, you know?

00:27:45.660 Yeah, of course.

00:27:46.540 For the bad guy.

00:27:46.840 And I think that actually, even though I was laughing until they almost threw me out of the room, I was like, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

00:27:53.980 But even as I was laughing, I think that's true.

00:27:56.060 You know, you can sort of tell when you're watching a film and you're not watching something that takes place in a moral framework.

00:28:03.100 You're watching something where they're titillating you with cruelty.

00:28:07.340 And I think there are a lot of movies like that, actually.

00:28:10.000 And look, they're not going to destroy you.

00:28:11.800 They're not going to reach into your soul and rip your soul out or anything like that.

00:28:14.580 But you just know it and you feel bad.

00:28:16.320 I mean, I once read a novel that was a ghost story and I was enjoying it for about two-thirds of the way.

00:28:20.780 And then suddenly it turned and I realized, no, this guy is actually sucking me into something evil.

00:28:25.800 And I threw the novel away, went to bed, woke up and thought, I got to get that thing out of the house.

00:28:31.720 And I actually took the book out of the house and threw it away in the garage because I didn't want it in the house.

00:28:36.440 So, yeah, you know, of course you can project evil if your heart is dark.

00:28:42.180 But I don't think that that's what most artists are doing.

00:28:44.420 I think what most artists are trying to do is get to the heart of something that they see in the world, even if they don't know it.

00:28:50.060 I think many writers who have no faith have produced beautiful works that speak of God.

00:28:54.400 Because I think any time you tell the truth, you're going to speak of God.

00:28:57.240 And by the way, the gospel itself is not even good news without the bad news.

00:29:03.740 And like, it's hard to look at the light.

00:29:05.660 It's hard to understand the light of redemption and the good news that that is if you don't understand the really bad news of the sin and the death and the bloodiness and the brutality that it's caused.

00:29:15.480 That's why heaven is something that we look forward to, because it is something without all of this darkness.

00:29:21.940 And so I think that dark-light dichotomy is really important. 0.72

00:29:24.800 Actually, we see it in the very beginning.

00:29:26.680 One of the first things that God does is separate the darkness from the light.

00:29:31.180 Yep, absolutely.

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00:31:06.840 What do you think about the religious state of America right now?

00:31:11.040 It does seem like moral relativism, my truth, your truth, is a popular philosophy, maybe more popular than ever before.

00:31:20.720 Do you see a shift, though, happening?

00:31:23.600 I don't know if it has to do with, you know, politics at all, but I'm sure, you know, it correlates somewhat with how people are feeling, thinking politically and culturally and then how we're shifting religiously.

00:31:35.700 What's your lay of the land?

00:31:36.880 Yeah, I mean, I've been predicting a very specific sort of revival for over 10 years, which is that I think there's going to be and is actually happening now.

00:31:47.260 It has actually begun a revival amongst the intellectual elites.

00:31:53.800 And I think that that's important because while we can get angry at our elites when they fail us and they so often become corrupt and elitist as opposed to just elite, it is ideas trickle down just like money.

00:32:05.740 And I think that when the intellectuals start to understand that atheism makes no sense, I think that's an important thing that's going to happen for all of us.

00:32:16.300 And I think it's actually happening now.

00:32:17.820 For hundreds of years, for hundreds of years, the discoveries of science sort of bled the faith out of the world.

00:32:29.100 It wasn't that anyone disproved God or anything like that, but they seem to be showing us that things don't work the way the Bible said they did.

00:32:37.420 You know, that things have absolutely materialist causes and therefore everything must be materialist.

00:32:42.740 Now, most of the great scientists who invented science and most of the great scientists through life do not believe that.

00:32:48.760 They almost all have believed in some kind of faith and some kind of spiritual underpinning to the world.

00:32:54.260 And yet it's suggested to us that everything might be pure material.

00:32:58.340 That's no longer true.

00:33:00.220 Now science shows us that consciousness actually comes before matter.

00:33:05.100 Spirit comes before matter.

00:33:06.360 And so the description of creation in the Bible makes a lot more scientific sense than this world the atheists believe in that sort of pops up out of nowhere.

00:33:16.320 There's nothing and then suddenly there's something and it all makes sense and human beings come along and just a great big accident.

00:33:22.760 And so that doesn't really make sense anymore. 0.96

00:33:24.760 And so one of the symptoms of this has been so many illogical, stupid, unreal things have come to pass because they made sense if there's no God. 0.98

00:33:40.060 I keep telling people, you know, people say this transgenderism, how could anybody say this? 0.98

00:33:44.460 You know, how could anybody say that a man can become a woman and a man and a woman are the same thing?

00:33:48.300 And I think if you don't believe in God, it makes perfect sense.

00:33:50.760 If you don't believe in God, you're just a body outline.

00:33:53.280 You know, you're just nothing. 0.99

00:33:54.680 You're just meat.

00:33:55.680 And so if I change the shape of the meat, don't I become a girl if I change it into a girl shape? 0.89

00:34:00.300 That's why one of the murders I study in the Kingdom of Cain is this murder by Ed Gein who tried to kill women in order to become a woman.

00:34:07.380 He would dress up in their bodies.

00:34:10.040 And that inspired Psycho.

00:34:11.400 It inspired Silence of the Lambs.

00:34:12.880 It inspired a film called The Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

00:34:15.440 It inspired the entire range of slasher films.

00:34:19.320 And the reason for that is that the arts so capture the conscience of the moment that they actually project into the future.

00:34:28.140 The Ed Gein murders were in the 50s, but people caught on that this was a logical progression of our atheism.

00:34:33.620 This is where our atheism was going to go.

00:34:35.720 Now that we've gotten here, we're saying like, wait a minute, that actually doesn't reflect reality. 0.98

00:34:40.400 And I think that one of the reasons that transgenderism is such a silly but also evil thing to believe in when you start butchering children in the names of transgenderism, that is a grave, grave evil. 1.00

00:34:51.780 But I think one of the reasons that has captured the imagination so much is because it's another one of those dividing lines where you start to think, well, if that makes sense, if there's no God, then maybe there is a God. 0.97

00:35:03.540 Maybe the world makes more sense than that.

00:35:05.760 And I think that that's occurring to intellectuals now, people of very high intellect, people in university settings.

00:35:12.960 And I think once that happens, it will give permission to people who feel like, oh, I'm not educated, so I kind of think there's a God, but all these professors are telling me there isn't.

00:35:23.200 Maybe they're right and I'm wrong.

00:35:24.980 This is a very common thing.

00:35:26.640 I'm not an educated person, therefore I don't have any wisdom, which is simply not true.

00:35:31.260 And I think that that change is coming upon us.

00:35:34.340 I think the logic of atheism has run out.

00:35:37.640 And I'm hoping this is true.

00:35:39.620 I'm seeing it start.

00:35:41.040 But we don't know which way it's going to go.

00:35:43.220 We don't know if people will go back to paganism.

00:35:45.200 We don't know if they'll embrace evil spiritualism.

00:35:47.520 Hopefully they will find that Christ is, in fact, the only religion that fully explains the sorts of things that we see in the world.

00:35:55.960 Yeah.

00:35:56.860 How do we make sense of those, some of those who profess to be Christians themselves, but I mean, certainly there are humans made in the image of God, and we believe eternity has been written on the human heart, but who disagree so much about what is actually evil and what is actually good.

00:36:14.800 I think about the media, for example, I know you talked about this recently, CNN aired a very sympathetic interview with a cartel member and actually all of the illegal immigrants, even those that have committed very heinous crimes that have been deported.

00:36:28.740 It seems that the media is covering their stories very sympathetically while casting Elon Musk and Donald Trump as, you know, basically Nazis and equating ICE raids to, you know, Nazi raids in 1940s Germany, 1930s Germany.

00:36:46.080 So, like, how do we get there when we have people who call evil good and good evil?

00:36:52.720 Obviously, we know it's a spiritual issue.

00:36:54.920 It is a deception, but it's hard for me, honestly, to make sense of it.

00:37:02.000 Well, I think one of the beauties of Christianity, I mean, one of the things that made Christianity make so much sense to me is that I have a tragic sensibility. 0.88

00:37:10.060 I look at the world and I see this world as a tragic place.

00:37:13.140 Any completion and fruition is going to have to come in a life that's larger than any life we live here.

00:37:20.420 And that's one of the beautiful things about Christianity is it says to you, look, you're a broken person. 0.89

00:37:27.800 You are a broken person.

00:37:29.240 You are getting into heaven by the grace of God.

00:37:31.580 You are hiding under the robes of God, sort of coming into heaven in his disguise.

00:37:36.460 And once you realize that, first of all, it's incredibly liberating.

00:37:40.580 I no longer have to pretend to be righteous.

00:37:42.920 You know, I know, you know, you and I don't have to look at each other and I don't have to think like, well, if Ali does something wrong, then she's a bad person.

00:37:48.960 I already know you're broken, sinful, just like me, you know, so I don't have to prove anything to you.

00:37:53.360 You don't have to prove anything to me.

00:37:54.460 We have to strive to be decent people in the world.

00:37:57.900 But we know that none of us is righteous, not one.

00:38:00.480 If you are confused about this and if you think that you can project your righteousness to other people and fool them that you are a righteous person,

00:38:11.720 then what you're feeling in the moment becomes more important than the facts of the case.

00:38:16.200 So you look at a criminal and you say, isn't it, aren't I a wonderful person for feeling compassion on that guy?

00:38:24.660 Aren't I, isn't it wonderful that I feel compassion on this gangster?

00:38:29.460 And I'm not like Donald Trump, that wicked Donald Trump who wants to deport this gangster. 0.98

00:38:33.720 He's wicked because he doesn't feel compassion. 0.99

00:38:36.100 I feel compassion for this gangster. 0.72

00:38:38.060 And that helps you politically because you don't like Donald Trump.

00:38:40.320 And it helps you sort of with this crazy idea that you're a righteous person.

00:38:46.360 There's only one problem with it is it forgets all the people who are being harmed by this gangster are harmed by this abortionist.

00:38:53.000 The lives, you know, the baby who can't cry out and say, please don't kill me.

00:38:57.200 I'd like to have a life. 0.65

00:38:58.420 The women who are raped by these traffickers, the gangsters who do such horrible, horrible things to human beings.

00:39:05.900 So you're showing, you think you're displaying your kindness, but in fact, you're revealing the fact that you are not just fallen like all of us, you're fallen and also deluded.

00:39:17.440 And I think that this is a problem that some Christians fall into, that they think that finding Christ makes them a good person instead of a saved person.

00:39:27.120 I think those are really two different things.

00:39:28.960 And I think that is why, that's why, you know, it's really interesting.

00:39:33.420 If you get your entire religion, if you get your theology only from the epistles, only from the rules, you know, only from people who say don't do this or don't do that, you're missing the whole point of the Christ story and the stories Christ tells.

00:39:47.920 When you tell a story, a story is a living thing.

00:39:50.500 A story doesn't say this is black and this is white.

00:39:53.260 A story shows you human beings in interaction.

00:39:55.980 And so when Jesus tells a parable, you can't just say, oh, that parable means this, because they've been talking about these parables for 2,000 years and you can still give a completely fresh original sermon about the parables.

00:40:06.820 Why is that?

00:40:07.600 Well, because there's no bottom to a great story's meaning.

00:40:10.780 And so that's why when Jesus says, okay, the law says, you know, stone a woman who's committed adultery.

00:40:19.020 Here's a woman in front of us who's committed adultery. 1.00

00:40:21.700 Let him who's without sin throw the first stone.

00:40:23.920 And he takes the rule and it dissolves.

00:40:27.320 It disappears before his righteousness, before his incomprehensible goodness.

00:40:33.820 When he does, when he violates the Sabbath, which was a very, very important rule, right?

00:40:39.500 This, you do not violate the Sabbath to do good.

00:40:42.200 And he says, well, the Sabbath was made for you. 0.98

00:40:44.200 It was made to shape you.

00:40:45.500 It was not you.

00:40:46.380 You know, it's not, you are not made for the Sabbath that you have to follow these stringent rules.

00:40:50.580 If they keep you from doing what's right, if they keep you from love.

00:40:54.180 And so I think that it's very, very easy for Christians and non-Christians alike who think that they are perfectible, who think that the world is perfectible and think that they can display righteousness.

00:41:04.760 It's very, very easy for them to start to violate the precept that you should not judge.

00:41:13.340 Once you start to say, you know what, I'm going to just pay attention to my sin and I'm going to leave you.

00:41:18.440 And, you know, you can come and talk to me about your sin anytime you want, but I'm not going to walk around pointing my finger at you.

00:41:23.380 Then you start to do what, try to do what's good in the world.

00:41:26.800 And obviously what's good in the world is to put bad guys in prison so they don't hurt anybody else.

00:41:31.380 You don't have to hate them.

00:41:32.380 You don't have to, you know, display your virtue by cursing at them.

00:41:35.780 You just have to make sure that people are safe and give them any chance they have to live a life without doing harm.

00:41:41.200 So I think it's this delusion that the world is perfectible and that you and I are perfectible that keeps people from seeing, that keeps people from calling evil evil and calling good good instead and gets them confused.

00:41:55.480 Yes, they're very confused, I think, about what the kingdom of heaven actually is.

00:42:01.120 I mean, they're trying to usher in some kind of utopia and they believe that they can actually make the kingdom of heaven here on earth.

00:42:07.080 But their attempts and even, like, their desired outcome is very perverse. 0.99

00:42:11.820 And I, you know, call it their mentality toxic empathy because it's empathy in the wrong direction, disproportionate empathy, and it also leads them to be morally and logically stupid. 0.58

00:42:25.640 You ignore the people on the other side of the moral equation because all of your feelings and compassion have been directed towards this one person, the purported victim that the media hoists up. 0.78

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00:43:41.760 What else do you hope people get out of the kingdom of Cain?

00:43:45.260 Well, I would like to see Christians feel a little bit less fragile in their faith and a little bit more trusting that just exactly what you said, that no matter what the devil does, it's going to point to the sacred.

00:43:59.760 The arts are one of the great sources of beauty in the world, but also one of the great reminders that the great artists, our creator, can take even of this dark world and make something beautiful beyond what we see.

00:44:14.320 And that's what people are always saying to me who don't believe.

00:44:17.080 How can I believe in a God who is all good and all knowing when he permits such evil in the world?

00:44:21.860 And my answer to that is not, oh, well, there has to be free will or, oh, you know, it's a fallen world because none of that really rings true when you're actually suffering from evil or actually facing some of the dark things we have to face in this world.

00:44:34.840 But the one thing that does speak to people, even in the moment of suffering, is the idea of beauty, that out of this terrible world, out of this dark world, a tremendous beauty is being born and being made, more than we can understand while we see it through a glass darkly and not face to face.

00:44:52.180 And so the book Kingdom of Cain ends confronting what I think is one of the most beautiful works of art in the world, which is Michelangelo's Pieta, which just shows Mary cradling the body of her dead son, Jesus Christ.

00:45:08.360 And I point out, you know, this statue is so beautiful that when Michelangelo signed the contract to make it, the actual contract said it must be the most beautiful thing ever made in marble.

00:45:19.820 And Michelangelo was confident enough to sign that contract, which I appreciate in him, and then delivered on it.

00:45:26.480 He delivered on it. It's the most beautiful thing any man has ever made out of marble.

00:45:30.300 And you look at it and you think, gosh, this thing is incredibly beautiful, but what's it a statue of?

00:45:35.500 It's a statue of the saddest moment, the saddest thing that can ever happen to anybody, a mother losing her child.

00:45:42.160 There is no sadder thing that happens on earth.

00:45:44.600 And it's a picture, not only a sculpture, not only of that, but it's a sculpture of the saddest thing that could happen to the world, the killing of God, the crucifixion of God by people who didn't even recognize him when he was right in front of their eyes.

00:45:57.640 And so this is a sculpture of the worst thing that has ever happened or could happen, and yet it's beautiful.

00:46:05.800 And the question the book ends with is, if a man, if a mere man can take marble and render something beautiful out of such tragedy and such despair,

00:46:17.340 what can God not make out of the marble of eternity of this world?

00:46:21.880 And so I want people to turn to the arts for beauty and to turn to beauty for truth and to understand that even in this darkness, even in this darkness, we're not told to be joyful because things are happy.

00:46:34.280 We're not told to be joyful later on when we get to heaven.

00:46:37.240 We're told to be joyful now, rejoice now, rejoice evermore.

00:46:40.800 And I think in the arts, we find that that is a possibility because we realize that there is a possibility that this darkness that we are living through now, this present darkness, will be made beautiful in the end.

00:46:52.880 And I think that the arts speak to that, and I would like Christians to be a little less afraid to create art that confronts darkness and a little less afraid to confront art that confronts darkness.

00:47:03.920 I think that when you have too many Christians saying, oh, naughty, naughty, you must not write about this, or, oh, no, I must not look at this, I must close my eyes because it shows something dark. 0.58

00:47:14.200 I think you develop a sort of childish, without being childlike, I think being childlike is a good thing, but you have this kind of childish view of the world and your faith can't stand when it confronts reality.

00:47:26.740 And so that's what I'm trying to get at it. I'm trying to remind us that our faith makes us strong, not fragile. Our faith makes us indestructible, not breakable.

00:47:37.800 And I think that that's an important thing to remember as we go forward and not to be so afraid of either art or life.

00:47:45.120 So good. Thank you so much, Andrew. I really do encourage everyone to go out and get it. The Kingdom of Cain. Fascinating conversation.

00:47:51.860 And thank you so much for sharing more of the details of your testimony. I just found that so encouraging. Thank you so much.

00:47:58.720 Thanks, Ali. It's great to see you.

00:47:59.980 You too.

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Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 20, 2025

Ep 1192 ｜ Why Women Are Obsessed with True Crime ｜ Guest： Andrew Klavan

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