Ep 1197 ｜ It’s Not Too Late to Take Away Your Kid’s Phone ｜ Guest： Clare Morell
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 1 minute
Words per Minute
192.08815
Summary
Claire Morrell is the author of The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. Today, her advice, the facts that she brings, they are so fascinating and helpful! This episode is brought to you by GoodRanchers.
Transcript
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It is time to take tablets away from toddlers and smartphones away from teens, and it is
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She is the author of The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones.
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Her guidance today, her advice, the facts that she brings, they are so fascinating and
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This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Go to GoodRanchers.com, use code Allie at checkout.
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Claire, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
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If you could tell everyone who you are and what you do.
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I have three children, and I'm also a pastor's wife.
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And then my professional work is that I work as a public policy expert, specifically focused
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on policy solutions, helping our lawmakers pass laws to protect our kids online from the
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harms of smartphones, social media, and online pornography.
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And you wrote this book, The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from
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What I love about this is that this seems to target parents of kids who already have
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Because I think a lot of parents think, if I didn't start by not giving them a phone when
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they were 11, then, you know, I just messed up, and that's all it is, and I'm just going
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No, this book is really actually meant to give parents a lot of hope that it's never
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And in fact, the younger, the better that children's brains can be reset.
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That it's possible to actually detox from screens, especially interactive screens like
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tablets or smartphones, and help your child's nervous system re-regulate and their brain
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And they can actually really reform their habits without screens.
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And so I walk parents through, step by step, how other families have done this digital
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detox, how they then keep going over the long term.
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And the message of the book really is that it is possible to give your children a smartphone-free
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And not only is it possible, but it's really fundamentally positive that all these families
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I've met and spoken with say that the saying no to screens was saying yes to so much more
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in real life, to real life relationships, real world responsibilities and activities.
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And they all say it's like the best parenting decision they feel like they've made, just
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OK, before we get into the how, I want to talk about the why.
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Why should a two-year-old say not have tablet time every day?
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Yeah, so the brain is in really critical periods of development, especially in those early
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And the problem is that screens are way overstimulating for a child's developing nervous
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And studies show that handing devices to these young children robs them of their ability
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It really steals those opportunities away because instead of developing patience and self-control
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and frustration tolerance, they're just learning to be calmed by a screen.
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And so it undermines really parents' long-term goals for their kids.
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We want our children to be emotionally regulated, to have self-control, to be independent.
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But just even a daily screen time limit, even if it's a short amount of time, is incredibly
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habit-forming, that it's forming their habits towards the screen.
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And the problem is that the devices are made to be addictive to a child's brain.
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And I think that's what parents don't understand.
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And they think, oh, well, I only give it for 10 minutes a day.
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But the problem is that the screen time limits don't map on to a child's mental or emotional
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time that is then spent craving more and more of that device.
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Because of the dopamine in the brain, they're going to constantly crave more.
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And it really dysregulates their developing nervous system.
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And so it's really actually important to protect those young years.
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I've heard that the smaller the screen, the worse it is.
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Would you say that TV time is just as detrimental to a young child's brain as them playing on
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A lot of experts differentiate between interactive screens and passive screens.
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So they would say a television is actually a passive screen.
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They're not pushing buttons or scrolling or getting immediate rewards or notifications
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Now, I think you can differentiate different types of programming on a television.
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But interactive screens are a lot more immersive to a child.
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And the smaller the screen really is more dangerous because it makes it feel like this
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And that's part of what then makes it so addictive.
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And I think the more I try to encourage parents, the bigger the screen, the better.
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And the more that it can be a shared experience that parents and children are part of together
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that they're enjoying with their siblings, it can actually enhance the relationships.
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But I think tablets and smartphones actually tend to divide family relationships because
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then everyone becomes siloed on their own screens rather than interacting with each
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other, which is another kind of danger of the tablet, just sucking a child in.
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And they're immediately drawn away from whatever the in-person interaction was that was going
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And we can see that reflected in our own brains as adults, that it's much easier to accidentally
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That typically doesn't happen when you're watching a show.
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It's like, yeah, you might want to watch the next show, but you're more able to kind of
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The thing with social media and the thing with games is that there's no stopping point.
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There's always something novel to kind of continue to feed that dopamine, which is why
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it seems to me that it wouldn't just, you know, addict this child to unhealthy levels of like
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But it also probably hinders their time regulation.
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When you look up as, you know, a three-year-old and you're like, oh, well, typically I can
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tell it's, you know, five minutes till bedtime.
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And I think, you know, what else is important to remember is that children, their prefrontal
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cortex, the part of the brain that is responsible for our impulse control and our self-control isn't
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And so an adult can say, well, it's not as addictive or immersive for me.
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Their brain is like all gas pedal and no brakes.
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They're just going to want more and more and more.
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And the other thing is, it's not even just the opportunity cost of the time spent, but
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that actually over time, their brain becomes so habituated to this artificially high level
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They become desensitized to pleasures in the real world.
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Things like a beautiful sunset or a moment shared together on a walk with a family member
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that are supposed to give us that real world pleasure are actually, they feel very boring
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and mundane to a child that's used to the stimulation of a screen.
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And so it's not just the opportunity cost of time, but it actually is reshaping their
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desires and affections towards things that I think any parent would say, oh, well, of course
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I don't want my child to value a screen more than a real life relationship or experience.
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When I think about being addicted to texting, I'm talking about like T9 on my little Motorola
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in, I don't know, seventh grade, eighth grade or something.
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And that was so new, like getting a buzz on your phone from a friend and just wanting to
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And that wasn't even with all of these games and social media.
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And yet even just the excitement of getting a text message was very addicting to my like
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So when we think about that, if people can out there can think the first time you got
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a phone or the first time you got an iPhone and how exhilarating it was.
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You transfer that to a three-year-old who, as you said, is not as developed and is also
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getting like such exciting and fast paced content.
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It's too much for them to be able to filter out and be able to get away from.
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And I think if parents like step back and you think about what you really want for your
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child, in parenting, in so many other areas, we have to take the long-term perspective.
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So even if the short-term thing is convenient to just hand a child a tablet, the long-term
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cost of that is that child not developing the kind of self-control and even just ability
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to entertain themselves, imagination, creativity, ability to focus deeply, to have a longer
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All of that is really being undermined every time we hand a child a screen.
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And so I think it's important for parents that there may be more short-term costs involved.
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I mean, parenting toddlers, as you know, is challenging.
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It takes a lot of energy and time as a parent, and it's a lot harder than handing a child
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But we put in that effort because of the long-term benefits we're hoping for in that child.
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And so it is important, I think, to take a longer-term view and think, okay, every time
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I hand a child a screen, I'm answering this question of what I want to be shaping my child's
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I think, parents, we want to be the primary influence shaping our children.
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But every time we hand a screen, it's answering that question for them because the screen is
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And I think this is important for parents to understand that it's not just about the content
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on the screen, but that the medium is the message.
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That a highly individualized, interactive screen is teaching a child really that their life is
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just about entertainment, that life is for constant amusement, it's for instant gratification,
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it's for just their own self-entertainment, and it's really inherently self-focused.
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And I think, especially as Christian parents, if my primary purpose is to teach my children
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to love and know God and to love and serve others, the two great commandments, the screen
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really undermines a parent's ability to do that because the message itself of the technology,
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not just the content on it, teaches my child that the world revolves around them and is
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just for their own pleasure and comfort and entertainment.
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My husband and I, the other day, we had our Uber driver who was taking us to the airport
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and such a nice person, like a father who clearly loves his kids so much.
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And I forget how it even came up, but somehow screen time came up and he had a two-year-old
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and a baby and somehow we mentioned, yeah, like our kids, we don't let them do like, you
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know, but they don't have daily tablet time or anything like that.
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He couldn't imagine really what it would be like to have a toddler and not give them that
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Our kids do sometimes watch TV, but they don't have, you know, the daily tablet time.
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And so that just made me think, wow, I bet a lot of parents think that way, that this
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is just, well, obviously we have an iPad for our kids and obviously we give our two-year-olds
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the iPad and a lot of parents will say, well, they throw a temper tantrum when I don't, or
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I'm trying to do something else and there's nothing else that will entertain my wild three-year-old.
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And so the only thing that I can do is give them this game and they'll say, well, it's
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educational, they're learning their ABCs and things like that.
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Have you found in your research that this is kind of a common idea for a lot of parents
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that it's totally fine and it might even be beneficial?
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They were like, oh, well, they're playing this educational game or whatever on the tablet.
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The first thing is that even the most like innocuous apps nowadays often have social media
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Like I've had many parents say, I thought my daughter was just doing this educational
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I had no idea she could friend people on this, that total strangers could message her.
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It may not be exactly what it appears that unfortunately the kind of social media format
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has really become integrated into a lot of these other apps, even ones designed primarily
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for younger children who aren't of the age to be on social media.
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And then the second thing I would just say is that the apps are designed to be more like
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It's all about notifications and rewards that just keeps the child going back for more
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And I think the research has really borne out over time that children don't learn as well
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And I have a whole chapter in the book about screens and getting screens out of schools because
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I hear that other and other, we've protected our kids from tablets and smartphones in our
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And then they get to school and this Chromebook is, or iPad is forced upon them.
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And then parents can't even install their own software.
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It's, they have to rely upon the school and they're often complaining the school's software
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They're finding their kids getting onto things they wouldn't have wanted them to.
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And so I think it's important to ask ourselves, are screens, is that really what's best for
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I think we've been kind of sold a myth by the ed tech companies.
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You know, one laptop per child was going to solve all of our educational inequalities and
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In fact, academic scores among kids reading math are at their like lowest since the 1970s.
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And so I think it is important to ask, like, are the screens even being pushed by the schools?
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Are they accomplishing what we were told they would?
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And the studies just show kids learn better by reading a book.
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They comprehend texts more deeply when they read it on paper instead of on a screen.
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Kids learn the ABCs better writing them out by hand than typing them.
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So it is kind of crazy because we visited a lot of schools and I was stunned by the fact
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that almost every school, kindergarten and even pre-K will have their kids their own Chromebook
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Now, in some cases, the kids, at least in kindergarten, they might leave them at the
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But it was like when I would ask about it, the teachers would be like so confused that
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And when I asked other parents, they would say, oh, like, you know, I've never thought
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about that or it's not that much or maybe it depends on the teacher.
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I was thinking, like, even if it is just 10 minutes a day, like, shouldn't I as the parent
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And then I think it makes the battle harder at home.
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Because the child is like, well, I need this to learn or this is what I do or I'm entertained
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And as you said, I don't know, it just seems obvious to me that whatever helps a child learn
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and retain information should be the thing that schools do.
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A lot of private Christian schools have kind of adopted that same mindset that more technology
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And so, yeah, it's not just the public school system, unfortunately.
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So let's get to the how, at least for this age group.
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For the parent who either they send their kid to the school that is a great school, but
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Or and or the parent who has a child at home, toddler age.
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And they've just, you know, started giving their toddler a little bit of screen time every
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But now they're saying they're thinking, OK, I don't want to do that anymore.
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So I walk parents through the exact steps of how to do this.
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And what I really recommend, which has been told to me by family after family, is just start
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The summer is a great time for this because they don't even have to be on the school issued
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So set aside 30 days and just say, we are going to try this out for 30 days.
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And 30 days is kind of important because I've had a lot of parents say two weeks in, it was
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They were tempted to give up because children actually go through like withdrawal symptoms.
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And especially for parents, like on the front end, you will have to invest more time and
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energy and attention into helping your kids replace that screen time with real life activities.
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But parents said they kept going and they made it to 30 days and they couldn't believe the
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And so then they were encouraged to actually keep going and do another 30 days.
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And then a lot of these families just never looked back.
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They said, our kids actually stopped asking for the screens because they formed new habits
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And so I know it can seem daunting for a parent to think, oh my goodness, we've been doing
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How do we all of a sudden go like completely screen free?
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But I think anyone can commit to doing something for 30 days and trying it out and just tasting
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the benefits for yourself, I think will be incredibly encouraging to just try to keep going for
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Now on the school front, I really do encourage parents to push back more.
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I think, you know, as parents in a school, like we are the main constituents that we're
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sending our children here and that for every parent that pushes back, it makes it easier
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And so just asking if you can have an exemption for your child, do they have to complete this
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I will say specifically for kids who struggle with ADHD or autism, they can be much more affected
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And so trying to even ask specifically for exemptions, if that is the case for your family,
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if you have a child who struggles with any of those conditions, that trying to make sure
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that the school will honor your decisions as parents trying to help your child accommodate
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And so I'm not saying it's always easy, but I do think parents can say, like, we don't
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We don't want them doing their school assignments on the screen.
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And it's hard to feel like you're the only one and there are going to be people who look
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at you like you're crazy for making a big deal of something.
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And you're going to have parents, your friends maybe even say, well, I haven't seen a negative
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You know, I have a son who's in sixth grade and he's been going to this school since
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And, you know, look, he's a star football player and there's no problem.
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But I think that's a reason why your book is so important, because it's got all of the
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facts and all of the studies and they can give this to the administrator or the teacher
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But especially as Christians, like, we understand that we're not always going to look like the
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In fact, often we're going to look countercultural.
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And technology is an important area that I think we should really be questioning.
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Like, as Christians, we want to live in the world, but not of the world.
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And just thinking that technology, I think, is an area where we don't want to look like
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the culture, where we've just given smartphones to our 10-year-olds or tablets to our two-year-olds
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because we have a really clear purpose in our parenting.
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We understand what the purpose of childhood is for.
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And that really orients us then to understand, okay, the screens are actually undermining this.
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And yeah, I may be the only one at first, but I will tell you, I think every parent I
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talk to says, I just, like, I wish there were other parents.
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Like, if you're seeing, if you're complaining about the screens in your own life, then I'm
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Like, we don't want to do this, but we just didn't want to be the only one.
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And so I do walk parents through in the book, like, how do you find other families?
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Like, talking to parents in your neighborhood or in your church or at your school, because
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Like, if there's one other family you're partnered with in this, where your kids have one friend
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who is also not on the screens, and you as a parent have another ally who will help reaffirm
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you in your convictions to keep going even when you meet points of resistance, it's really
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And so I do encourage parents, like, be the change that you want to see.
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Talk to the families that you know, and you can really spark a movement.
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And I actually, you know, explain some of those in the book that it just took these two moms
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talking to other moms, and then all of a sudden, this kind of smartphone-free childhood
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And so I do think, yeah, you don't be afraid to be the only one, but also do talk to other
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And I think that if you start the conversation, you may find a lot of other parents are eager
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And then, of course, yours truly will be speaking as well.
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Thousands and thousands of you have already signed up, and we want as many people as possible
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So make sure you get your tickets today before they run out.
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I think being on the same page as your spouse is even more powerful than being on the same
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As long as you and your husband are on the same page, even if you're not, you can do this
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If you are going to take the time to persuade anyone, I would say the first person you need
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to persuade to have the same level of passion as you is your spouse, but also I would say
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That is a really big one that I hear from a lot of my friends.
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They'll say, I have these boundaries at my house, but when they go to their grandparents'
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house, their grandparents, you know, they don't care.
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Or they just don't have the, they feel like they don't have the energy to, you know, keep
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I actually am so glad you brought up the point about grandparents because I've talked to
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It's like, we have all these rules and then they go to grandma's house and she lets them
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do a bunch of iPad games or shows them YouTube videos on her tablet.
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And so I do think as parents, like we can actually help educate our parents.
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Like they are a little bit more removed from some of these things that we are dealing with
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on a daily basis and saying like, it really helps me if you back up my parenting that
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we're not doing these screens for these reasons.
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And like, are there other treats you can offer instead?
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Like I always went to my grandmother's house and she offered me like cookies.
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Like it was always like grandma's going to have some treats.
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And it's like the iPad has become the new like treat that grandparents are offering because
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I think they almost know like, oh, your parents aren't letting you do this.
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Grandma's going to give you something a little extra special.
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And so just trying to say like, listen, I do want you to give treats to my kids, but
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like we're really like screens are really undermining the work that hard work we're
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Like, can we just pick an alternative treat activity?
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I think it can be awkward sometimes talking to your grown parents or your in-laws, but
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I was even talking to another mom where she feels like she has to have proactive parents
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with her daughter's friends' parents because when she, her daughter goes over to their
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house, she just wants them to understand what their tech standards are so that they will
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Even if those aren't the standards they live by in their household, just like, hey, with
00:26:18.620
my daughter, we don't want her looking at phones.
00:26:20.560
Can we not do phones when she goes to your house?
00:26:22.820
And so that does, that takes like putting yourself out there as a parent to be able to
00:26:27.800
But I do think it's important to be proactive in communicating your standards to other people
00:26:36.400
I actually saw this post the other day on X that was kind of going viral with all these
00:26:41.780
Someone said, you know, my kids are staying at my sister's house for a couple of weeks
00:26:47.600
And my sister let me know that they have a no iPad rule in their house and that my kids
00:26:58.300
You're saying that you won't spend time with my kids unless they don't have their iPad.
00:27:02.820
And there were a lot of comments agreeing with him saying, these are your rules.
00:27:10.220
And I was like, I commented and I was like, good job for your sister.
00:27:21.340
But just to reiterate again, a lot of parents are up against.
00:27:27.060
When it comes to trying to protect their children from this kind of technology.
00:27:30.340
And part of the problem that you just kind of hit the nail on the head is that the effects
00:27:36.300
There's a collective aspect to this in the sense that if your kid has access to an iPad,
00:27:41.960
it means that that kid could easily pull something up on their iPad and show something to your child
00:27:50.120
If kids are on iPads, then they're not interacting with the other kids that are there.
00:27:55.020
There are these network effects of social media and smartphones where even if a few kids
00:27:59.300
are on the screens, it affects the social environment and social dynamics for everybody.
00:28:04.240
And so that's also why I'm both a parent, but I also do work in public policy because
00:28:08.860
I want us to help pass better laws that will back parents up, that there are collective
00:28:15.560
But those can be mediated by just talking to other parents and trying to create your own
00:28:20.340
communities where you're all opting out together, like schools and churches are really powerful
00:28:28.940
Why do you think that so many parents, and I completely relate to this impulse, by the way,
00:28:34.700
but like, why do you think so many parents feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so overstimulated.
00:28:40.560
I can't function without my child being pacified, at least for a period of time with this iPad
00:28:47.940
when obviously when we grew up, we didn't have that.
00:28:52.360
Like, is it because we don't let our kids outside as much as we used to?
00:28:59.280
Like, is it just because we are overstimulated with our technology?
00:29:06.160
Or maybe it's all of the above, but it just feels like I hear a lot of parents saying,
00:29:13.560
It's almost like a relief for the parents more than it is for the kids.
00:29:21.200
Like, in my mind, I'm like, it is all of the above.
00:29:25.380
I think that technology has both been like a blessing and a curse in the sense I do think
00:29:30.160
that parents now, we're doing so many more things than my mom was doing when she was raising
00:29:35.160
me because it's possible to be connected online, on a laptop, to be working from home, to be
00:29:43.120
We have so many things pulling on our attention.
00:29:46.620
And I do think our own smartphone use, like as parents, really is a large reason why screens
00:29:53.600
You're like, hold on, I need to respond to this email.
00:29:56.840
Just watch this iPad tablet show so that I can get this thing done.
00:30:01.320
And so I do, in the book, address that, like our own technology use as parents is really
00:30:06.640
We want to be exemplifying for our children what is most important.
00:30:10.580
And I think every time that we're looking at a screen instead of talking to them, we're
00:30:15.040
communicating that our phone is more important than they are.
00:30:18.900
And I mean, I most of all, like I want my children to value people more than they value
00:30:27.100
And I do think parents disconnecting from their own devices then makes it easier to
00:30:33.940
And sadly, I do think the iPad has become the new pacifier.
00:30:37.540
Like it just becomes a really easy crutch for parents.
00:30:41.780
When you do this detox, like literally physically get rid of all the screens in your house.
00:30:50.360
Like leave them somewhere outside of your house.
00:30:52.080
Because like when you go on a diet, you don't keep a stash of junk food hidden in the pantry
00:30:57.540
so that in a moment of weakness, you can just go binge.
00:31:06.120
Like we initially had a smart TV when my toddler was like two years old.
00:31:15.180
Like this will be so easy to just have him watching the screen.
00:31:18.440
And so I do think there's a powerful pull on us as parents where it just becomes such an easy thing to opt for.
00:31:25.560
And so just actually eliminating screens from your house or moving them to inconvenient locations.
00:31:30.140
I've had so many families say, our TV is now down in our basement.
00:31:35.460
So that it's not such a visual reminder all the time of something that's so easy to just put on.
00:31:42.980
Just trying to eliminate screens from your house will just make it easier to not give in.
00:31:47.700
And in a moment of parenting weakness where you're like, it's five o'clock.
00:31:54.960
I mean, that is a moment of parenting weakness where handing an iPad feels like a really easy solution.
00:32:00.460
So I know that you said that bigger screens are better than smaller screens.
00:32:03.820
So TV, you know, watching with siblings is better than individually playing.
00:32:08.280
But it does sound like you're also saying, okay, when it's 530 and you're cooking dinner
00:32:13.100
and everyone is crazy, that it's not the best thing to do to turn on the TV.
00:32:21.560
And I think part of that is anything that's like a daily habit.
00:32:26.020
Like if it's screen time is always 530 when mom's getting dinner ready, that still is really
00:32:32.280
And so one of the principles I talk about in the book is that in these families that have
00:32:37.420
really tried to opt out and go through a low-tech lifestyle, any screen entertainment that they're
00:32:44.840
So the shared part is like watching it together, but it's sparing.
00:32:47.620
It looks like Friday night movie nights or Saturday morning, a nature documentary while mom and
00:32:53.340
dad have a little bit of a slower morning and enjoy their coffee together.
00:32:56.560
But it's not something that's like a daily habit or occurrence where the kids come to expect
00:33:04.060
That habit formation is so powerful at these young ages.
00:33:08.000
And it's also the opportunity cost, like thinking to yourself, what could my kids do instead of
00:33:17.060
I mean, my kids end up doing Play-Doh often at the kitchen table, which gets everywhere.
00:33:22.020
I was talking about this with a mom the other day.
00:33:23.860
I think if you are trying to be a low-tech home, it means embracing a little bit of a life of chaos
00:33:29.720
It's not always as convenient to me as a mom to say, OK, I'm going to let my kids go wild
00:33:34.000
with Play-Doh because I'm going to have to help them clean that mess up afterwards.
00:33:37.240
But then the relationships that form through them playing with their Play-Doh creations,
00:33:42.620
the creativity that emerges, it just it makes it so much so worth it.
00:33:47.160
And so I think then that reinforces for me, like, I'm glad we're not opting for daily
00:33:51.860
screens because this is what they would miss out on if we were.
00:33:55.740
And would you say the right amount of tablet time is zero?
00:34:00.080
So even if someone says, we only do tablets when we're flying, we only do tablets for like
00:34:06.120
a couple hours every two weeks or something like that, you would say it's better to have
00:34:14.680
And so I also just want to recognize, like, that is where I'm at because of my research.
00:34:19.320
But I also give parents stepping stones to getting there in my book, recognizing that you may not
00:34:26.920
I think like there are other time as you see these benefits.
00:34:32.660
I would say, like, with travel, I'm not anti-screens during travel.
00:34:36.700
But again, are you opting for a passive screen, like letting them watch a movie on the plane?
00:34:41.360
Or is it something that's individualized and very interactive and very addictive?
00:34:45.980
So there's really there's a lot of differences.
00:34:48.040
And then even the content you're picking, a lot of the modern kids shows like Cocomelon
00:34:53.140
are like super stimulating, bright flashing colors, a lot of frames per second.
00:34:58.540
It's a lot more addicting than a slower moving old movie like Mary Poppins or Sound of Music.
00:35:04.300
So I try to talk through those kind of content choices as well, because you do want to opt
00:35:10.160
for things that are going to be less stimulating to a child's nervous system.
00:35:13.520
When we realized I didn't know, you know, I remember learning about like the frame rate
00:35:17.660
and how the frame rate is so fast with Cocomelon.
00:35:23.000
But once we learned that, we were like, OK, no more.
00:35:25.760
And plus, it really is not like an edifying educational show anyway.
00:35:29.940
So it wasn't like ever a centerpiece in our family's life.
00:35:32.820
But then we were like a lot more intentional about what TV we did allow them to watch,
00:35:39.700
because it's not just about, OK, we obviously don't want woke themes and, you know, all of that.
00:35:49.960
So there's just so much to think about that it almost is easier to just say, OK, we're
00:36:01.540
And I would say, too, like with a long airplane ride, try to like make the screen the last
00:36:07.120
I feel like I see a lot of families get on the plane and like in two seconds, the screen
00:36:11.200
is out and you're like, this child is going to be doing screens like this entire flight.
00:36:15.320
Whereas, you know, try the coloring book first or a story or other activities where it's
00:36:20.940
like that screen becomes the very like last resort when you're like, OK, our kids now need
00:36:25.180
to make it through the last like 30 minutes of this flight.
00:36:29.420
A quick story on Cocomelon that I think is just fascinating.
00:36:33.060
There was this article in The New York Times that was talking about how the episodes are
00:36:37.100
designed and they actually have children that they're testing the shows on sit and watch
00:36:42.420
And then next to the screen with Cocomelon is a screen they called the real life-a-tron that
00:36:48.420
shows scenes from real life, like a mom cooking dinner, a dad vacuuming.
00:36:53.040
And any time the child looked away from Cocomelon and found the real life scene more interesting,
00:36:59.860
the episode makers would note that down where that timestamp was in the show and then they'd
00:37:04.100
go back and they'd add more music, brighter lights, flashing colors to that point in the
00:37:09.060
show because they wanted to be immersive and addictive to a child.
00:37:12.980
They don't want the child looking away from the screen to what's going on in the real
00:37:17.080
And so I do think it's worth just, yes, as parents, like really thinking critically about
00:37:22.080
the kinds of content we're letting our children take in when we do have those sparing moments
00:37:31.760
And who would sign their kid up to be like the subject testing for the Cocomelon?
00:37:43.000
Navigating the mortgage world right now, buying a house, trying to refinance your home, it is
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You want to make sure that you are trusting people with this kind of decision that align
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That's when I am choosing someone that I want to work with, whether it's like a makeup artist
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or whether it's a big decision like this, I want to make sure that that person aligns
00:38:19.500
And when you're talking about something as precious as your home, your treasure, your
00:38:23.560
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00:38:27.800
And that's what you'll get at Fellowship Home Loans.
00:38:30.220
This is a company that doesn't just go buy the book.
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00:38:40.480
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So let's move into what some parents would say is even more difficult.
00:39:21.500
And I don't have teenagers yet, so I can't speak to this, but you've done research and
00:39:28.160
Say the person who's got a 15-year-old and they've had an iPhone since they were 12.
00:39:33.900
And the parent says, okay, but this is so much of a part, like, it's so much of a part of
00:39:52.840
And we've got rules around the iPhone, so it's fine.
00:39:56.640
But maybe they're starting to hear this and they're thinking, did I give it too early?
00:40:01.640
Is it possible for that parent to take the iPhone away from their teenager?
00:40:07.900
I know that that sounds shocking to parents because they're like, but how?
00:40:14.020
They're going to leave for college in three years.
00:40:18.740
I've actually spoken with parents who had teenagers who had a phone and took it away.
00:40:23.020
And they weren't saying it was the easiest thing to do, but that it was the best thing
00:40:28.720
And I think that's what we have to keep in mind, that making these changes doesn't always
00:40:33.360
mean it's going to be the easiest path, but it is going to be the best for their long-term
00:40:39.080
And what I would say to a parent is, I hear from a lot of parents, well, we're giving them
00:40:43.220
a smartphone, but they won't have social media on it.
00:40:46.320
Any child safety expert will tell you that is not true.
00:40:49.400
There are thousands of portals to the internet in a smartphone.
00:40:53.920
Every app has its own in-app browser, which I don't think a lot of parents are aware of.
00:41:01.220
Often third-party parental controls or filters that you install cannot block what's happening
00:41:08.340
And so I talk about this in the book, but a child can actually get to Pornhub inside of
00:41:17.200
A parent would have no idea because Snapchat blocks all external controls.
00:41:22.220
And so to a parent, if they have any software set up, it just looks like their child is
00:41:28.460
But the parent has no oversight or insights into what the child is doing or seeing.
00:41:34.620
And so I've just heard from parent after parent, like parental controls are a myth.
00:41:38.400
The best they can do is just tell you where your child is spending their time, not what they're
00:41:42.840
And if you just think back to the tech company side of this, they don't want parents involved
00:41:51.460
So there is no parental consent required whatsoever for a child to make a social media account.
00:41:56.860
There is no parental consent required whatsoever for a child to access the app store or to download
00:42:04.000
And so one study found that one in four nine to 12-year-old boys have been on an online
00:42:13.000
I mean, like Hinge or Tinder or Bumble, because this mom was saying that is the most recommended
00:42:20.240
Like she went in her son's 12-year-old app store and she said even though she had the
00:42:24.060
app store configured to show him only apps appropriate for a 12-year-old, it still said
00:42:29.020
that your top rated apps are Hinge, Tinder, TikTok, and Bumble.
00:42:33.400
And so it's no surprise then if there's no parental consent involved to download that
00:42:37.180
app and these are advertised to children in the app stores, that it's not shocking that
00:42:43.560
And so I just try to explain to parents it is impossible to effectively lock down a smartphone.
00:42:48.880
When you hand a child a smartphone, you are inviting the entire world into the task of
00:42:55.600
People who do not share your worldview, there is just so much potential.
00:43:00.180
And they don't care about the interest or the safety of your child at all.
00:43:03.920
I mean, they have recognized that social media is an easy way to access children.
00:43:09.580
But it is too easy for predators to reach them.
00:43:12.340
It is too easy for inappropriate, violent content, pornography to reach your child on a
00:43:19.300
And I feel for parents because I feel like the tech companies have sold them this myth,
00:43:24.000
just enable our parental controls and your kid will be fine.
00:43:31.820
I haven't talked about this story yet and I've been meaning to because I spoke with the legislator
00:43:36.300
who is trying to push this legislation in the state of Texas.
00:43:40.080
So the Wall Street Journal, this is the exclusive.
00:43:43.320
Tim Cook called Texas Governor Greg Abbott to stop online child safety legislation.
00:43:52.320
Apple stepped up efforts in recent weeks to fight Texas legislation that would require the
00:43:56.620
iPhone maker to verify ages of device users, even drafting chief executive Tim Cook into
00:44:03.940
That is how little they want to verify the ages of those using the app.
00:44:08.740
The CEO called Greg Abbott to ask for changes to the legislation or failing that for a veto.
00:44:16.000
Okay, so he's saying we want you to veto this all together.
00:44:19.620
In the weeks leading up to its passage, the bill's passage, Apple hired more lobbyists to
00:44:26.620
An interest group it funds targeted the Austin, Texas area with ads saying that legislation
00:44:30.940
is, quote, backed by porn websites, which is not actually true.
00:44:35.880
Um, Texas would be the largest state to adopt this app store accountability law, um, be,
00:44:43.200
and you could probably explain it better than I could, because right now these apps, as you're
00:44:48.880
saying, they say that, oh, you know, this is only for adults or this is for, um, kids under
00:44:56.040
But then you get on these apps and some of these apps have like how to suicide guides.
00:45:03.080
And so this legislation is trying to say that these kinds of apps should not even be available
00:45:18.100
So Utah has passed the App Store Accountability Act law.
00:45:24.440
And, um, a coalition of child safety experts have been working on these bills because of
00:45:29.460
the gap I just mentioned that a child can just access the App Store without a parent's
00:45:34.200
And they can download literally any app, apps rated as 17 plus, like adult apps, like OnlyFans.
00:45:41.160
And so this law would actually put parents back in the driver's seat to say a parent is
00:45:45.700
going to be the right authority over whether a child gets a certain app or not.
00:45:50.400
And so it's parental consent would be required for each app download under this law.
00:45:55.860
And yes, the devices like Apple, those companies would be responsible for verifying a user's
00:46:01.660
And if they are a minor, ensuring they obtain parental consent before they just have unfettered
00:46:06.540
access to the App Store or downloading any of these apps.
00:46:16.240
Why wouldn't they just say, you know what, this is probably worth it.
00:46:21.860
It's because at the end of the day, they're a for-profit business and teenagers make up
00:46:29.100
And they know that if parents are in the driver's seat, they are going to really curtail the kinds
00:46:37.100
Every time an app is sold in the App Store, it gets 30% of that sale.
00:46:46.680
They want their apps to be downloaded, purchased by kids willy-nilly.
00:46:50.940
They don't want parents to be in the driver's seat.
00:46:52.960
And they also recognize the younger they get a child interested in their App Store and their
00:46:59.880
Like, a lot of their business model is advertising.
00:47:02.400
So the more time and attention that a child is spending in their App Store, the better for
00:47:07.300
And so, of course, anything that would threaten their bottom line, they're going to stand up
00:47:11.580
So it's shocking that he actually called the governor, Tim Cook did.
00:47:17.700
It just speaks to how important this is to their business model.
00:47:22.120
So that's just to emphasize the point that parents, there is so much, when you let your
00:47:27.780
child have an iPhone, even if you say, I'm not going to let them download these apps,
00:47:34.400
It's not just, well, yeah, it might naturally lead to temptation, but a lot of things lead
00:47:42.540
This is a concerted effort by the most powerful people in the world to ensure that your child
00:47:48.880
has access to pornography, to suicidal content, and to content that will ruin their lives and
00:48:01.600
I mean, parents care, but the tech companies don't.
00:48:04.080
And that is like the biggest lie, that they want you to use their products, just put the
00:48:08.860
If they really wanted parents to have control, then they would be rejoicing at the passage
00:48:13.280
of this app store law that would let parents consent.
00:48:18.100
And so you just, you can't take them at their word, unfortunately.
00:48:21.480
They are not, their interests are not aligned with children's interests and they're not aligned
00:48:26.940
And for teenagers, because we're still kind of talking about the why behind taking away the
00:48:31.820
phone from the teen and ensuring they don't have an iPhone and especially don't have social
00:48:37.000
media and all that stuff, it has an effect on self-esteem.
00:48:39.980
It still has an effect on emotional regulation.
00:48:42.980
Because as you said, that prefrontal cortex still is not developed.
00:48:49.840
She was very brave because now she is phone free and she's like maybe 20 years old.
00:48:54.280
But she said that she doesn't remember five years of her life because for five years of
00:48:59.140
her life, she spent six to 10 hours a day, and this included COVID and everything as a
00:49:05.040
child, looking at TikTok and looking at Instagram.
00:49:08.940
And she thankfully like snapped out of it and realized, I don't want my life to be that.
00:49:16.520
I mean, there are times certainly where I've been texting or I've been looking at something
00:49:20.020
and I look up and, you know, five minutes has passed.
00:49:27.040
And that amounts, even if it's 10 minutes every day, which it's never for kids, by the
00:49:31.740
way, they're using iPhones for hours and hours a day.
00:49:34.580
We're talking months of their life that is being wasted and cannot be brought back.
00:49:46.560
I mean, that really is the question is like, what do we want our kids' memories?
00:49:51.980
And something else, like these kids are more connected than ever on the smartphones, but
00:49:56.480
we have this epidemic of loneliness and mental health crisis among teens.
00:50:00.540
And something I found so interesting in my research was that they're getting dopamine on
00:50:08.040
So oxytocin is a hormone that is released when we're in person with someone else.
00:50:18.700
The kids, you don't get oxytocin through a screen.
00:50:22.080
And so they're not actually forming deep friendships.
00:50:24.860
It's all these shallow connections based on metrics like likes and followers.
00:50:29.780
And so even if they're connected, they are incredibly lonely.
00:50:34.700
And so when you take that smartphone away, getting back to your original question that
00:50:38.360
is it possible to take a 15-year-old's phone away?
00:50:41.120
And what you do is you help that child then reenter the real world, that they can then
00:50:46.220
form real friendships and not be on their device.
00:50:49.000
And families who have done this, they say that they wish they had just done it sooner.
00:50:53.820
Because I'm not saying it's not going to be initially hard.
00:50:58.280
But you have to just intentionally then fill their lives with real world things.
00:51:03.940
I heard from parent after parent, if you take away the phone, which is this immense kind
00:51:08.920
of privilege of giving them all this freedom in the virtual world, if you restrict that
00:51:13.440
virtual freedom as you should, you need to give them more freedom in the real world.
00:51:17.580
Freedoms that will actually help them progress towards adulthood and take on more real world
00:51:23.520
This was like my favorite chapter of the book to write, which was trading screens for real
00:51:28.860
And just what these families then filled childhood with helping kids take on adult-like chores
00:51:33.380
around the house, becoming responsible for doing the grocery shopping and making a meal
00:51:39.080
for the family, and then turning that outward even into service to others in their communities.
00:51:44.060
And it's just, what's amazing is that service to others in your family, in your community
00:51:51.220
They're like, our kids weren't anxious anymore because they weren't focused on themselves and
00:51:57.320
They were serving their family, serving other people.
00:52:00.320
And so even if you only have three years left with your child before they go to college,
00:52:05.060
those are three years that you can fill with real world memories and you can help them
00:52:09.720
reform their habits for the habits that you'd want them to have when they enter adult life.
00:52:15.360
And so it is, it's never too late to reverse course and try to help your child develop the
00:52:30.320
And they might be angry, but you're still their parent.
00:52:34.660
And they are under your roof and they can follow your rules.
00:52:39.040
And as you said, it might not be easy, but you go through that detox period and it might
00:52:45.600
be hard because all of their friends have phones.
00:52:48.220
And as you said, though, this is a good opportunity to teach them, well, we're not like everyone
00:52:52.420
else and you don't have to live like the world.
00:52:55.640
I'm giving you a leg up actually compared to a lot of your peers.
00:52:59.820
Let me end on our final sponsor, and that is Faith Under Siege.
00:53:09.640
So this is a documentary about the persecution of Christians, and this is specifically about
00:53:14.500
the persecution of Christians happening in Ukraine.
00:53:17.680
Russia is expanding their occupation in this area.
00:53:21.280
And reportedly, there are evangelical believers there who are enduring the seizing of churches,
00:53:29.680
They're struggling to keep their faith alive and secret.
00:53:38.600
This documentary has gained exposure at the Museum of the Bible.
00:53:43.480
Producers are hoping to shed light on what is going on over there.
00:53:57.040
When it comes to where policy comes in, because we're talking about parental authority, which
00:54:06.860
is so important, and that's going to have the biggest change or biggest impact on your
00:54:18.140
I think it's a really important question, and I often get this response, oh, well, we don't
00:54:23.520
Like, just leave it up to parents, and I have tried to explain.
00:54:28.340
Yes, parents are always ultimately responsible.
00:54:31.760
They are on the front lines to protect their children, but there are aspects to these harms
00:54:36.660
that are collective in nature that individual parents cannot fight on their own.
00:54:41.860
So one of the biggest laws I've worked on is laws to restrict online pornography websites
00:54:47.300
so that you have to be over the age of 18 to access a pornography website.
00:54:51.680
This is an example of a law that really helps to back parents up, because I, as a parent,
00:54:56.220
could install all the filters on our home computer.
00:55:02.820
But if they can go to school, and their friend on a smartphone can easily just pull up
00:55:07.380
Pornhub and stick it in my child's face, now that's a collective problem.
00:55:11.140
And so why should it only be on parents to protect kids from pornography websites?
00:55:15.480
Why is it not on the pornography websites to make sure they're age-restricting their
00:55:25.720
I've been very involved in because it's being decided by the Supreme Court.
00:55:29.460
Like, any day now, the case, Free Speech Coalition versus Paxton, which will rule on the
00:55:34.460
merits of whether or not that law is constitutional.
00:55:39.360
I was actually in the courtroom for oral arguments, and I was mainly encouraged that the justices
00:55:44.460
seem to understand that in the smartphone social media era, the idea that filters are
00:55:50.180
a more effective, less restrictive means of protecting children from online pornography
00:55:57.020
That filters have been largely ineffective, and putting it on individual parents with filters
00:56:02.660
So regardless of exactly how they come down, they may not rule on the merits of the law,
00:56:07.720
but send it back down to the Fifth Circuit to be reviewed under a different legal standard.
00:56:13.080
I am confident that they are going to ultimately get to the right outcome, which is saying that
00:56:17.780
states have to be able to legislate in this area because parents on the front lines do need
00:56:23.920
That it's not enough to leave it up to parents.
00:56:26.840
And just speaking of it as a justice issue, I believe that all children deserve to be protected
00:56:32.720
from pornography, not just children who come from in families with like very involved parents.
00:56:39.160
But I care about the children that may have parents that aren't as attuned to what's going
00:56:44.200
on on the social media websites and the online platforms.
00:56:47.980
And so I think there's an important role for the law to play when we recognize that something
00:56:53.280
is so harmful for childhood, we don't just leave it up to individual parents.
00:56:57.820
Like we haven't let the decision on whether or not a minor can buy tobacco or alcohol up
00:57:06.960
And I think it needs to be the same with online pornography or social media that there's
00:57:11.640
collective solutions that the law has a role to play in backing parents up and also ensuring
00:57:21.840
And so what can we do in that policy realm, just as parents, in addition to what we're
00:57:27.260
doing in our own home and trying to, I say, raise a respectful ruckus in our communities
00:57:33.140
and in our schools, what can we do to make sure there are these legal protections where we
00:57:39.360
I just really encourage parents to raise their voices, to make their opinions known to their
00:57:44.720
legislators, to their lawmakers, especially at the local level.
00:57:50.240
School boards are very influential in terms of the types of policies that are happening
00:57:54.940
A lot of parents have very successfully advocated for getting phones banned from the entire school
00:58:01.900
We see more and more school districts and states adopting these policies that are having huge
00:58:07.000
benefits for kids, protecting both the learning and social environment of the school day.
00:58:11.720
Because maybe you can't impose that all parents don't give their kids smartphones and social
00:58:15.860
media, but you can at least protect the school day.
00:58:18.680
So I think just starting with your local school board members, but then also talking to your
00:58:23.900
As we just mentioned, there are a lot that states can do in this area, like age-restricting
00:58:28.940
pornography websites, requiring parental consent for app stores, or requiring parental consent
00:58:36.320
And then even at the federal level, like call your senator, call your representative and
00:58:44.040
Because what I often hear from members who are working on these issues is that the big
00:58:49.740
tech lobby is so loud and so powerful that it's really difficult for these legislators to
00:58:59.220
And so if parents, their constituents are calling them and saying that this matters to them, that
00:59:03.420
this is important, they will take that seriously.
00:59:06.060
And it can help them stand up to just the army that big tech just descends on these legislators.
00:59:14.720
But at the end of the day, every person who is running for re-election, whether it's now
00:59:22.800
And they're not getting voted for by the lobbyists.
00:59:26.620
But at the end of the day, they want to get re-elected.
00:59:30.880
So in the state of Texas, for example, we need to be, you need to be calling Governor
00:59:36.940
Abbott's office, but even calling your legislators to ensure that they know that you support them
00:59:43.540
and that you don't want this bill to be vetoed.
00:59:49.760
And I'll just say this, like parents, when we band together and raise our voices, really
00:59:56.440
You know, I'm sure you're familiar with Mothers Against Drunk Drivers.
00:59:59.360
MAD is like a very powerful example of how moms who were upset about their kids getting
01:00:08.960
Within years, they had the national drinking age raised to 21 and then also had different
01:00:18.500
And so I think we need a similar movement of parents when it comes to social media and
01:00:26.760
The Tech Exit, A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones.
01:00:31.620
I just really encourage everyone to arm themselves with this book, not only for your personal use,
01:00:36.160
but when you're calling your legislator, when you're getting a meeting with him or her, when
01:00:40.700
you're talking to the teacher, to the administrator with fellow parents, you're not just going to
01:00:46.520
You're going to say, no, this is what the facts say.
01:00:51.340
It's not just some hypothetical scenario where some people somewhere could maybe one day take
01:00:57.720
It's really worked for families and it can work for your family too.