Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1197 ｜ It’s Not Too Late to Take Away Your Kid’s Phone ｜ Guest： Clare Morell

00:00:01.000 Cocomelon might be frying your kids' brains. 1.00

00:00:04.540 It is time to take tablets away from toddlers and smartphones away from teens, and it is

00:00:10.920 absolutely possible.

00:00:12.400 We've got Claire Morrell here.

00:00:13.720 She is the author of The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones.

00:00:20.700 Her guidance today, her advice, the facts that she brings, they are so fascinating and

00:00:25.080 helpful.

00:00:25.820 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:27.800 Go to GoodRanchers.com, use code Allie at checkout. 0.82

00:00:30.240 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:41.720 Claire, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:00:44.440 If you could tell everyone who you are and what you do.

00:00:46.940 Yes, so I'm first and foremost a mom.

00:00:49.400 I have three children, and I'm also a pastor's wife.

00:00:52.520 I'm married to my husband, Caleb.

00:00:54.040 He's in pastoral ministry.

00:00:55.280 And then my professional work is that I work as a public policy expert, specifically focused

00:01:01.260 on policy solutions, helping our lawmakers pass laws to protect our kids online from the

00:01:07.460 harms of smartphones, social media, and online pornography.

00:01:10.660 That's what I've done.

00:01:11.780 Yes.

00:01:12.120 And you wrote this book, The Tech Exit, a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from

00:01:17.780 smartphones.

00:01:18.560 What I love about this is that this seems to target parents of kids who already have

00:01:24.300 the smartphone.

00:01:25.120 Because I think a lot of parents think, if I didn't start by not giving them a phone when

00:01:30.260 they were 11, then, you know, I just messed up, and that's all it is, and I'm just going

00:01:36.000 to have to hope for the best.

00:01:37.300 But you're saying that's not true.

00:01:39.800 You don't just have to give up now.

00:01:41.640 That's exactly right.

00:01:42.440 No, this book is really actually meant to give parents a lot of hope that it's never

00:01:46.700 too late to reverse course.

00:01:48.500 And in fact, the younger, the better that children's brains can be reset.

00:01:53.320 That it's possible to actually detox from screens, especially interactive screens like

00:01:58.660 tablets or smartphones, and help your child's nervous system re-regulate and their brain

00:02:03.780 reset.

00:02:04.260 And they can actually really reform their habits without screens.

00:02:06.940 And so I walk parents through, step by step, how other families have done this digital

00:02:12.120 detox, how they then keep going over the long term.

00:02:15.680 And the message of the book really is that it is possible to give your children a smartphone-free

00:02:21.500 childhood.

00:02:22.380 And not only is it possible, but it's really fundamentally positive that all these families

00:02:27.200 I've met and spoken with say that the saying no to screens was saying yes to so much more

00:02:32.280 in real life, to real life relationships, real world responsibilities and activities.

00:02:37.280 And they all say it's like the best parenting decision they feel like they've made, just

00:02:41.940 helping their kids be free of these devices.

00:02:44.620 OK, before we get into the how, I want to talk about the why.

00:02:48.680 And let's start with young kids.

00:02:51.480 Why should a two-year-old say not have tablet time every day?

00:02:57.400 Yeah, so the brain is in really critical periods of development, especially in those early

00:03:01.700 years.

00:03:02.100 And the problem is that screens are way overstimulating for a child's developing nervous

00:03:07.540 system.

00:03:08.060 And studies show that handing devices to these young children robs them of their ability

00:03:13.500 to develop emotional regulation.

00:03:15.400 It really steals those opportunities away because instead of developing patience and self-control

00:03:20.920 and frustration tolerance, they're just learning to be calmed by a screen.

00:03:24.900 And so it undermines really parents' long-term goals for their kids.

00:03:28.420 We want our children to be emotionally regulated, to have self-control, to be independent.

00:03:34.280 But just even a daily screen time limit, even if it's a short amount of time, is incredibly

00:03:40.100 habit-forming, that it's forming their habits towards the screen.

00:03:44.380 And the problem is that the devices are made to be addictive to a child's brain.

00:03:48.940 They are constantly drawn back for more.

00:03:51.200 And I think that's what parents don't understand.

00:03:52.880 And they think, oh, well, I only give it for 10 minutes a day.

00:03:56.200 But the problem is that the screen time limits don't map on to a child's mental or emotional

00:04:02.060 time that is then spent craving more and more of that device.

00:04:05.940 Because of the dopamine in the brain, they're going to constantly crave more.

00:04:10.760 And it really dysregulates their developing nervous system.

00:04:13.980 And so it's really actually important to protect those young years.

00:04:17.200 I've heard that the smaller the screen, the worse it is.

00:04:21.740 Yes.

00:04:22.320 Would you say that TV time is just as detrimental to a young child's brain as them playing on

00:04:29.140 a tablet?

00:04:29.880 I wouldn't say it's just as detrimental.

00:04:32.140 A lot of experts differentiate between interactive screens and passive screens.

00:04:38.120 So they would say a television is actually a passive screen.

00:04:41.540 A child's not interacting with it.

00:04:43.560 They're not pushing buttons or scrolling or getting immediate rewards or notifications

00:04:49.060 back.

00:04:49.760 They're just, you know, taking in a program.

00:04:52.180 Now, I think you can differentiate different types of programming on a television.

00:04:55.780 So that's important.

00:04:56.620 But interactive screens are a lot more immersive to a child.

00:05:00.560 And the smaller the screen really is more dangerous because it makes it feel like this

00:05:04.880 very individualized experience.

00:05:07.280 And that's part of what then makes it so addictive.

00:05:09.880 And I think the more I try to encourage parents, the bigger the screen, the better.

00:05:14.340 And the more that it can be a shared experience that parents and children are part of together

00:05:18.780 that they're enjoying with their siblings, it can actually enhance the relationships.

00:05:23.160 But I think tablets and smartphones actually tend to divide family relationships because

00:05:28.420 then everyone becomes siloed on their own screens rather than interacting with each

00:05:32.660 other, which is another kind of danger of the tablet, just sucking a child in.

00:05:36.980 And they're immediately drawn away from whatever the in-person interaction was that was going

00:05:41.320 on.

00:05:42.120 And we can see that reflected in our own brains as adults, that it's much easier to accidentally

00:05:46.940 spend 45 minutes scrolling through Instagram.

00:05:49.700 That typically doesn't happen when you're watching a show.

00:05:52.480 It's like, yeah, you might want to watch the next show, but you're more able to kind of

00:05:57.540 discern, OK, this is how much time I've spent.

00:06:00.780 Is this a good stopping point?

00:06:02.160 The thing with social media and the thing with games is that there's no stopping point.

00:06:05.960 As you said, it's meant to be addictive.

00:06:08.140 So you never like win these games.

00:06:10.520 There's always something new.

00:06:11.860 There's always something different.

00:06:13.560 There's always something novel to kind of continue to feed that dopamine, which is why

00:06:18.940 it seems to me that it wouldn't just, you know, addict this child to unhealthy levels of like

00:06:25.480 dopamine hits on a daily basis.

00:06:27.360 But it also probably hinders their time regulation.

00:06:30.860 Oh, yeah.

00:06:31.160 When you look up as, you know, a three-year-old and you're like, oh, well, typically I can

00:06:35.480 tell it's, you know, five minutes till bedtime.

00:06:38.000 And now I have no idea what time it is.

00:06:40.280 Very disorienting.

00:06:41.540 Oh, no, it's totally disorienting.

00:06:43.000 And I think, you know, what else is important to remember is that children, their prefrontal

00:06:47.820 cortex, the part of the brain that is responsible for our impulse control and our self-control isn't

00:06:54.080 fully developed till the age of 25.

00:06:55.820 And so an adult can say, well, it's not as addictive or immersive for me.

00:06:59.600 I'm able to kind of self-regulate.

00:07:01.260 OK, I've been on this too long.

00:07:03.280 A child doesn't have that.

00:07:04.560 Their brain is like all gas pedal and no brakes.

00:07:07.000 They're just going to want more and more and more.

00:07:08.920 And so it really is.

00:07:10.020 It's a dangerous time suck.

00:07:11.820 And the other thing is, it's not even just the opportunity cost of the time spent, but

00:07:17.120 that actually over time, their brain becomes so habituated to this artificially high level

00:07:23.800 of dopamine that the screen provides.

00:07:26.200 They become desensitized to pleasures in the real world.

00:07:29.600 Things like a beautiful sunset or a moment shared together on a walk with a family member

00:07:34.400 that are supposed to give us that real world pleasure are actually, they feel very boring

00:07:39.020 and mundane to a child that's used to the stimulation of a screen.

00:07:42.940 And so it's not just the opportunity cost of time, but it actually is reshaping their

00:07:47.200 desires and affections towards things that I think any parent would say, oh, well, of course

00:07:51.320 I don't want my child to value a screen more than a real life relationship or experience.

00:07:57.120 When I think about being addicted to texting, I'm talking about like T9 on my little Motorola

00:08:05.520 in, I don't know, seventh grade, eighth grade or something.

00:08:09.340 I remember feeling addicted to that.

00:08:12.120 And that was so new, like getting a buzz on your phone from a friend and just wanting to

00:08:18.280 be in my room and text.

00:08:20.080 And that wasn't even with all of these games and social media.

00:08:24.240 I couldn't even take pictures with this phone.

00:08:26.800 There wasn't that level of addiction.

00:08:29.280 And yet even just the excitement of getting a text message was very addicting to my like

00:08:34.960 14 year old brain.

00:08:36.860 Yeah.

00:08:37.000 So when we think about that, if people can out there can think the first time you got

00:08:41.060 a phone or the first time you got an iPhone and how exhilarating it was.

00:08:44.380 You transfer that to a three-year-old who, as you said, is not as developed and is also

00:08:49.260 getting like such exciting and fast paced content.

00:08:53.960 We're just putting, it's too much.

00:08:55.600 It's too much for them to be able to filter out and be able to get away from.

00:09:00.040 Yes, no, exactly.

00:09:01.120 And I think if parents like step back and you think about what you really want for your

00:09:05.080 child, in parenting, in so many other areas, we have to take the long-term perspective.

00:09:10.080 So even if the short-term thing is convenient to just hand a child a tablet, the long-term

00:09:16.460 cost of that is that child not developing the kind of self-control and even just ability

00:09:21.560 to entertain themselves, imagination, creativity, ability to focus deeply, to have a longer

00:09:28.480 attention span.

00:09:29.660 All of that is really being undermined every time we hand a child a screen.

00:09:34.160 And so I think it's important for parents that there may be more short-term costs involved.

00:09:38.680 I mean, parenting toddlers, as you know, is challenging.

00:09:42.140 It takes a lot of energy and time as a parent, and it's a lot harder than handing a child

00:09:47.240 a screen.

00:09:47.940 But we put in that effort because of the long-term benefits we're hoping for in that child.

00:09:53.260 And so it is important, I think, to take a longer-term view and think, okay, every time

00:09:58.060 I hand a child a screen, I'm answering this question of what I want to be shaping my child's

00:10:03.820 life.

00:10:04.080 I think, parents, we want to be the primary influence shaping our children.

00:10:08.160 But every time we hand a screen, it's answering that question for them because the screen is

00:10:12.980 conveying its own message.

00:10:14.920 And I think this is important for parents to understand that it's not just about the content

00:10:19.220 on the screen, but that the medium is the message.

00:10:22.580 That a highly individualized, interactive screen is teaching a child really that their life is

00:10:27.940 just about entertainment, that life is for constant amusement, it's for instant gratification,

00:10:34.480 it's for just their own self-entertainment, and it's really inherently self-focused.

00:10:40.440 And I think, especially as Christian parents, if my primary purpose is to teach my children

00:10:45.440 to love and know God and to love and serve others, the two great commandments, the screen

00:10:50.520 really undermines a parent's ability to do that because the message itself of the technology,

00:10:55.700 not just the content on it, teaches my child that the world revolves around them and is

00:11:00.040 just for their own pleasure and comfort and entertainment.

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00:12:32.000 My husband and I, the other day, we had our Uber driver who was taking us to the airport

00:12:43.720 and such a nice person, like a father who clearly loves his kids so much.

00:12:48.920 And I forget how it even came up, but somehow screen time came up and he had a two-year-old

00:12:54.080 and a baby and somehow we mentioned, yeah, like our kids, we don't let them do like, you

00:12:59.880 know, but they don't have daily tablet time or anything like that.

00:13:03.060 And he was shocked.

00:13:05.100 He was, he was like, wow, wow.

00:13:07.600 He couldn't imagine really what it would be like to have a toddler and not give them that

00:13:13.680 kind of screen time.

00:13:14.820 Our kids do sometimes watch TV, but they don't have, you know, the daily tablet time.

00:13:19.000 And so that just made me think, wow, I bet a lot of parents think that way, that this

00:13:24.440 is just, well, obviously we have an iPad for our kids and obviously we give our two-year-olds

00:13:30.340 the iPad and a lot of parents will say, well, they throw a temper tantrum when I don't, or

00:13:36.340 I'm trying to do something else and there's nothing else that will entertain my wild three-year-old.

00:13:41.760 And so the only thing that I can do is give them this game and they'll say, well, it's

00:13:46.620 educational, they're learning their ABCs and things like that.

00:13:49.940 Have you found in your research that this is kind of a common idea for a lot of parents

00:13:54.380 that it's totally fine and it might even be beneficial?

00:13:58.340 Yes.

00:13:58.640 I hear this a lot.

00:13:59.820 They were like, oh, well, they're playing this educational game or whatever on the tablet.

00:14:04.900 The first thing is that even the most like innocuous apps nowadays often have social media

00:14:11.640 components hidden in them.

00:14:13.080 Like I've had many parents say, I thought my daughter was just doing this educational

00:14:16.880 game.

00:14:17.520 I had no idea she could friend people on this, that total strangers could message her.

00:14:23.660 So I would really just caution parents.

00:14:25.320 It may not be exactly what it appears that unfortunately the kind of social media format

00:14:31.940 has really become integrated into a lot of these other apps, even ones designed primarily

00:14:36.780 for younger children who aren't of the age to be on social media.

00:14:39.960 And then the second thing I would just say is that the apps are designed to be more like

00:14:45.220 a game than education.

00:14:46.640 It's all about notifications and rewards that just keeps the child going back for more

00:14:51.780 and more and more.

00:14:52.560 And I think the research has really borne out over time that children don't learn as well

00:14:58.160 on screens as they do with books and paper.

00:15:01.000 And I have a whole chapter in the book about screens and getting screens out of schools because

00:15:05.660 that's been another challenge for parents.

00:15:07.400 I hear that other and other, we've protected our kids from tablets and smartphones in our

00:15:11.840 own house.

00:15:12.400 And then they get to school and this Chromebook is, or iPad is forced upon them.

00:15:17.240 And then parents can't even install their own software.

00:15:20.180 It's, they have to rely upon the school and they're often complaining the school's software

00:15:24.020 is not very good.

00:15:25.000 They're finding their kids getting onto things they wouldn't have wanted them to.

00:15:28.640 And so I think it's important to ask ourselves, are screens, is that really what's best for

00:15:33.720 children's education?

00:15:34.740 I think we've been kind of sold a myth by the ed tech companies.

00:15:38.580 You know, one laptop per child was going to solve all of our educational inequalities and

00:15:43.120 solve the achievement gaps.

00:15:44.500 And that has not borne out.

00:15:45.660 In fact, academic scores among kids reading math are at their like lowest since the 1970s.

00:15:52.000 Yeah.

00:15:52.460 And so I think it is important to ask, like, are the screens even being pushed by the schools?

00:15:56.380 Are they accomplishing what we were told they would?

00:15:58.560 And the studies just show kids learn better by reading a book.

00:16:02.460 They comprehend texts more deeply when they read it on paper instead of on a screen.

00:16:08.120 Kids learn the ABCs better writing them out by hand than typing them.

00:16:12.160 So it is kind of crazy because we visited a lot of schools and I was stunned by the fact

00:16:18.780 that almost every school, kindergarten and even pre-K will have their kids their own Chromebook

00:16:26.000 or their own iPad.

00:16:27.240 Now, in some cases, the kids, at least in kindergarten, they might leave them at the

00:16:31.320 school.

00:16:32.100 But it was like when I would ask about it, the teachers would be like so confused that

00:16:37.900 I would even ask about it.

00:16:39.340 And when I asked other parents, they would say, oh, like, you know, I've never thought

00:16:44.620 about that or it's not that much or maybe it depends on the teacher.

00:16:48.140 And it was I was just shocked.

00:16:50.940 I was thinking, like, even if it is just 10 minutes a day, like, shouldn't I as the parent

00:16:58.540 be able to have authority over that?

00:17:01.020 Like, what if I don't want that at all?

00:17:02.740 Yeah.

00:17:03.000 And then I think it makes the battle harder at home.

00:17:05.420 Yes.

00:17:05.800 Because the child is like, well, I need this to learn or this is what I do or I'm entertained

00:17:10.540 by this.

00:17:11.220 And the parent just gives in.

00:17:13.820 And as you said, I don't know, it just seems obvious to me that whatever helps a child learn

00:17:19.480 and retain information should be the thing that schools do.

00:17:23.600 And we're not talking about public schools.

00:17:25.140 No.

00:17:25.280 I'm talking about private schools.

00:17:26.960 A lot of private Christian schools have kind of adopted that same mindset that more technology

00:17:31.600 is going to improve students' learning.

00:17:33.960 And so, yeah, it's not just the public school system, unfortunately.

00:17:37.460 Yeah.

00:17:37.920 So let's get to the how, at least for this age group.

00:17:42.040 Sure.

00:17:42.420 For the parent who either they send their kid to the school that is a great school, but

00:17:46.880 it's got iPads.

00:17:47.880 Yeah.

00:17:48.500 Or and or the parent who has a child at home, toddler age.

00:17:54.000 Yeah.

00:17:54.220 And they've just, you know, started giving their toddler a little bit of screen time every

00:17:59.040 day.

00:17:59.600 But now they're saying they're thinking, OK, I don't want to do that anymore.

00:18:03.080 What do they do?

00:18:04.220 Yes.

00:18:04.580 So I walk parents through the exact steps of how to do this.

00:18:08.020 And what I really recommend, which has been told to me by family after family, is just start

00:18:12.760 with a 30 day digital detox.

00:18:15.020 The summer is a great time for this because they don't even have to be on the school issued

00:18:18.940 screens.

00:18:19.400 So set aside 30 days and just say, we are going to try this out for 30 days.

00:18:24.660 And 30 days is kind of important because I've had a lot of parents say two weeks in, it was

00:18:29.400 really hard.

00:18:30.260 They were tempted to give up because children actually go through like withdrawal symptoms.

00:18:34.620 Right.

00:18:35.100 Like it's not, I'm not sugarcoating it.

00:18:37.160 Like it is going to be challenging.

00:18:38.420 And especially for parents, like on the front end, you will have to invest more time and

00:18:42.800 energy and attention into helping your kids replace that screen time with real life activities.

00:18:48.080 But parents said they kept going and they made it to 30 days and they couldn't believe the

00:18:52.680 benefits that they saw in their children.

00:18:54.320 Like their nervous systems really were reset.

00:18:56.800 And so then they were encouraged to actually keep going and do another 30 days.

00:19:00.400 And then a lot of these families just never looked back.

00:19:02.600 They said, our kids actually stopped asking for the screens because they formed new habits

00:19:07.540 without them.

00:19:08.300 And so I know it can seem daunting for a parent to think, oh my goodness, we've been doing

00:19:12.780 the tablet every day.

00:19:14.080 How do we all of a sudden go like completely screen free?

00:19:17.380 But I think anyone can commit to doing something for 30 days and trying it out and just tasting

00:19:23.080 the benefits for yourself, I think will be incredibly encouraging to just try to keep going for

00:19:28.960 the long term.

00:19:29.580 Now on the school front, I really do encourage parents to push back more.

00:19:33.300 I think, you know, as parents in a school, like we are the main constituents that we're

00:19:38.460 sending our children here and that for every parent that pushes back, it makes it easier

00:19:43.700 on the other parents.

00:19:44.880 And so just asking if you can have an exemption for your child, do they have to complete this

00:19:50.500 assignment on the screen?

00:19:51.580 Can they do it by pen or paper?

00:19:53.220 I will say specifically for kids who struggle with ADHD or autism, they can be much more affected

00:19:58.920 and dysregulated by the screens.

00:20:00.640 And so trying to even ask specifically for exemptions, if that is the case for your family,

00:20:05.440 if you have a child who struggles with any of those conditions, that trying to make sure

00:20:10.020 that the school will honor your decisions as parents trying to help your child accommodate

00:20:14.900 how they learn best.

00:20:16.400 And so I'm not saying it's always easy, but I do think parents can say, like, we don't

00:20:21.540 do screens in our family.

00:20:22.900 We see the effects it has on our children.

00:20:24.800 We don't want them doing their school assignments on the screen.

00:20:27.600 And it's hard to feel like you're the only one and there are going to be people who look

00:20:32.240 at you like you're crazy for making a big deal of something.

00:20:34.980 And you're going to have parents, your friends maybe even say, well, I haven't seen a negative

00:20:40.980 effect.

00:20:41.540 You know, I have a son who's in sixth grade and he's been going to this school since

00:20:45.220 kindergarten.

00:20:46.080 And, you know, look, he's a star football player and there's no problem.

00:20:50.380 You don't need to worry about it.

00:20:51.920 But I think that's a reason why your book is so important, because it's got all of the

00:20:56.500 facts and all of the studies and they can give this to the administrator or the teacher

00:21:00.120 and they can read it.

00:21:00.920 That's right.

00:21:01.300 But it's okay to be the only one.

00:21:04.260 And you might start out the only one.

00:21:05.820 You might not end up being the only one.

00:21:07.960 That's right.

00:21:08.480 I do think, like, it takes courage as parents.

00:21:11.100 But especially as Christians, like, we understand that we're not always going to look like the

00:21:15.320 culture.

00:21:15.860 In fact, often we're going to look countercultural.

00:21:18.600 And technology is an important area that I think we should really be questioning.

00:21:22.740 Like, are we living just like the world?

00:21:24.720 Like, as Christians, we want to live in the world, but not of the world.

00:21:27.920 And just thinking that technology, I think, is an area where we don't want to look like

00:21:31.580 the culture, where we've just given smartphones to our 10-year-olds or tablets to our two-year-olds

00:21:35.940 because we have a really clear purpose in our parenting.

00:21:39.700 We understand what the purpose of childhood is for.

00:21:43.040 And that really orients us then to understand, okay, the screens are actually undermining this.

00:21:47.880 And yeah, I may be the only one at first, but I will tell you, I think every parent I

00:21:52.080 talk to says, I just, like, I wish there were other parents.

00:21:55.280 And I'm like, you all, you're all out there.

00:21:57.220 Just talk to each other.

00:21:58.440 Like, if you're seeing, if you're complaining about the screens in your own life, then I'm

00:22:02.900 sure other parents are feeling that too.

00:22:04.500 Like, we don't want to do this, but we just didn't want to be the only one.

00:22:07.300 And so I do walk parents through in the book, like, how do you find other families?

00:22:11.280 Like, talking to parents in your neighborhood or in your church or at your school, because

00:22:16.460 honestly, it takes just one other family.

00:22:18.880 Like, if there's one other family you're partnered with in this, where your kids have one friend

00:22:23.820 who is also not on the screens, and you as a parent have another ally who will help reaffirm

00:22:29.240 you in your convictions to keep going even when you meet points of resistance, it's really

00:22:33.540 powerful.

00:22:34.060 And so I do encourage parents, like, be the change that you want to see.

00:22:38.140 Talk to the families that you know, and you can really spark a movement.

00:22:42.280 And I actually, you know, explain some of those in the book that it just took these two moms 0.93

00:22:46.220 talking to other moms, and then all of a sudden, this kind of smartphone-free childhood

00:22:49.920 movement took off.

00:22:51.180 And so I do think, yeah, you don't be afraid to be the only one, but also do talk to other

00:22:56.660 parents.

00:22:57.060 And I think that if you start the conversation, you may find a lot of other parents are eager

00:23:01.900 to join you.

00:23:04.060 We'll see you next time.

00:23:34.060 Katie Faust, Bring in the Heat. 1.00

00:23:35.800 You know she always does.

00:23:37.040 And then, of course, yours truly will be speaking as well.

00:23:39.640 It's October 11th in Dallas, Texas.

00:23:41.940 Thousands and thousands of you have already signed up, and we want as many people as possible

00:23:47.760 there, as many women as possible there. 1.00

00:23:49.400 So make sure you get your tickets today before they run out.

00:23:52.340 Go to sharethearrows.com.

00:23:54.060 That's sharethearrows.com.

00:23:55.520 I think being on the same page as your spouse is even more powerful than being on the same

00:24:05.580 page as another mom in your kid's class.

00:24:08.460 As long as you and your husband are on the same page, even if you're not, you can do this

00:24:14.860 and you can be strong.

00:24:15.900 But that is really important.

00:24:17.120 If you are going to take the time to persuade anyone, I would say the first person you need

00:24:21.540 to persuade to have the same level of passion as you is your spouse, but also I would say

00:24:27.980 grandparents.

00:24:29.440 Yes.

00:24:29.920 That is a really big one that I hear from a lot of my friends.

00:24:32.620 They'll say, I have these boundaries at my house, but when they go to their grandparents'

00:24:37.020 house, their grandparents, you know, they don't care.

00:24:40.160 And they're just like, oh, it's fine.

00:24:41.700 We did it when we were little.

00:24:43.280 You watch TV or whatever it is.

00:24:45.900 Or they just don't have the, they feel like they don't have the energy to, you know, keep

00:24:49.940 up with the kids.

00:24:50.720 And so that is tough.

00:24:52.200 It is.

00:24:52.600 I actually am so glad you brought up the point about grandparents because I've talked to

00:24:56.820 other parents who say the same thing.

00:24:58.140 It's like, we have all these rules and then they go to grandma's house and she lets them 0.99

00:25:01.240 do a bunch of iPad games or shows them YouTube videos on her tablet.

00:25:06.200 And so I do think as parents, like we can actually help educate our parents.

00:25:10.100 Like they are a little bit more removed from some of these things that we are dealing with

00:25:14.040 on a daily basis and saying like, it really helps me if you back up my parenting that

00:25:18.680 we're not doing these screens for these reasons.

00:25:21.480 And like, are there other treats you can offer instead?

00:25:24.620 I don't know.

00:25:25.360 It's so funny.

00:25:25.780 Like I always went to my grandmother's house and she offered me like cookies.

00:25:28.620 Like it was always like grandma's going to have some treats.

00:25:30.800 Yeah.

00:25:31.000 And it's like the iPad has become the new like treat that grandparents are offering because

00:25:35.320 I think they almost know like, oh, your parents aren't letting you do this.

00:25:39.760 Grandma's going to give you something a little extra special.

00:25:41.800 And so just trying to say like, listen, I do want you to give treats to my kids, but

00:25:45.540 like we're really like screens are really undermining the work that hard work we're

00:25:49.880 doing as parents.

00:25:50.600 Like, can we just pick an alternative treat activity?

00:25:53.820 And I know that's hard.

00:25:55.460 I think it can be awkward sometimes talking to your grown parents or your in-laws, but

00:25:59.440 really trying to explain what you're doing.

00:26:01.140 I was even talking to another mom where she feels like she has to have proactive parents

00:26:05.060 with her daughter's friends' parents because when she, her daughter goes over to their

00:26:09.360 house, she just wants them to understand what their tech standards are so that they will

00:26:14.040 respect those.

00:26:15.100 Even if those aren't the standards they live by in their household, just like, hey, with

00:26:18.620 my daughter, we don't want her looking at phones. 0.93

00:26:20.560 Can we not do phones when she goes to your house? 1.00

00:26:22.820 And so that does, that takes like putting yourself out there as a parent to be able to

00:26:26.860 have those conversations.

00:26:27.800 But I do think it's important to be proactive in communicating your standards to other people

00:26:32.940 who are in your children's lives.

00:26:35.040 And it can be tough.

00:26:36.400 I actually saw this post the other day on X that was kind of going viral with all these

00:26:40.640 people commenting on it.

00:26:41.780 Someone said, you know, my kids are staying at my sister's house for a couple of weeks

00:26:46.760 this summer.

00:26:47.600 And my sister let me know that they have a no iPad rule in their house and that my kids 0.91

00:26:52.480 aren't allowed to bring their iPads.

00:26:54.240 And he was livid about this as a dad.

00:26:55.980 He was like, I can't, this is so cruel.

00:26:58.300 You're saying that you won't spend time with my kids unless they don't have their iPad.

00:27:02.820 And there were a lot of comments agreeing with him saying, these are your rules.

00:27:07.020 These are your kids.

00:27:08.220 This is so cruel of your sister.

00:27:10.220 And I was like, I commented and I was like, good job for your sister.

00:27:14.480 That's good.

00:27:15.400 Like, I'm glad that she did that.

00:27:17.260 Yes.

00:27:17.740 Maintaining her boundaries in her house.

00:27:19.700 It'll be good for your kids.

00:27:21.340 But just to reiterate again, a lot of parents are up against.

00:27:25.280 Yeah.

00:27:25.980 A lot.

00:27:26.660 They are.

00:27:27.060 When it comes to trying to protect their children from this kind of technology.

00:27:30.140 Yeah.

00:27:30.340 And part of the problem that you just kind of hit the nail on the head is that the effects

00:27:34.020 are not just individual of the screen.

00:27:36.300 There's a collective aspect to this in the sense that if your kid has access to an iPad,

00:27:41.960 it means that that kid could easily pull something up on their iPad and show something to your child

00:27:46.560 that you would never want them to see.

00:27:48.080 It also changes the whole social dynamic.

00:27:50.120 If kids are on iPads, then they're not interacting with the other kids that are there.

00:27:53.900 And so we've seen this.

00:27:55.020 There are these network effects of social media and smartphones where even if a few kids

00:27:59.300 are on the screens, it affects the social environment and social dynamics for everybody.

00:28:04.240 And so that's also why I'm both a parent, but I also do work in public policy because

00:28:08.860 I want us to help pass better laws that will back parents up, that there are collective

00:28:13.800 aspects to these problems as well.

00:28:15.560 But those can be mediated by just talking to other parents and trying to create your own

00:28:20.340 communities where you're all opting out together, like schools and churches are really powerful

00:28:25.140 places to find that if you can.

00:28:28.940 Why do you think that so many parents, and I completely relate to this impulse, by the way,

00:28:34.700 but like, why do you think so many parents feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so overstimulated.

00:28:40.560 I can't function without my child being pacified, at least for a period of time with this iPad

00:28:47.940 when obviously when we grew up, we didn't have that.

00:28:52.360 Like, is it because we don't let our kids outside as much as we used to?

00:28:57.120 We feel like our neighborhoods aren't as safe.

00:28:59.280 Like, is it just because we are overstimulated with our technology?

00:29:03.000 So we're more irritable?

00:29:04.620 Is it because we're busier?

00:29:06.160 Or maybe it's all of the above, but it just feels like I hear a lot of parents saying,

00:29:11.020 I'm overstimulated.

00:29:12.240 I'm stressed out.

00:29:13.560 It's almost like a relief for the parents more than it is for the kids.

00:29:19.000 Yeah, no, it is.

00:29:19.880 And I feel like you're right.

00:29:21.200 Like, in my mind, I'm like, it is all of the above.

00:29:23.360 I do think parents are overwhelmed.

00:29:25.380 I think that technology has both been like a blessing and a curse in the sense I do think

00:29:30.160 that parents now, we're doing so many more things than my mom was doing when she was raising

00:29:35.160 me because it's possible to be connected online, on a laptop, to be working from home, to be

00:29:41.220 doing all these different things at once.

00:29:43.120 We have so many things pulling on our attention.

00:29:46.620 And I do think our own smartphone use, like as parents, really is a large reason why screens

00:29:52.320 do get handed to kids.

00:29:53.600 You're like, hold on, I need to respond to this email.

00:29:56.840 Just watch this iPad tablet show so that I can get this thing done.

00:30:01.320 And so I do, in the book, address that, like our own technology use as parents is really

00:30:06.000 important.

00:30:06.640 We want to be exemplifying for our children what is most important.

00:30:10.580 And I think every time that we're looking at a screen instead of talking to them, we're

00:30:15.040 communicating that our phone is more important than they are.

00:30:18.900 And I mean, I most of all, like I want my children to value people more than they value

00:30:23.320 phones.

00:30:23.840 And so how do I do that?

00:30:25.140 It's really by modeling it for them.

00:30:27.100 And I do think parents disconnecting from their own devices then makes it easier to

00:30:31.780 resist handing them to our kids.

00:30:33.940 And sadly, I do think the iPad has become the new pacifier.

00:30:37.540 Like it just becomes a really easy crutch for parents.

00:30:40.380 And so it's something I talk about in my book.

00:30:41.780 When you do this detox, like literally physically get rid of all the screens in your house.

00:30:46.800 Like don't keep them around.

00:30:48.240 Box them up and bring them to a shed.

00:30:50.360 Like leave them somewhere outside of your house.

00:30:52.080 Because like when you go on a diet, you don't keep a stash of junk food hidden in the pantry

00:30:57.540 so that in a moment of weakness, you can just go binge.

00:31:00.400 You get that food out of your house.

00:31:02.200 And it's the same with screens.

00:31:03.400 If it's around, I found this as a parent.

00:31:06.120 Like we initially had a smart TV when my toddler was like two years old.

00:31:09.900 I felt tempted to put it on for him.

00:31:12.080 He wasn't even asking for it.

00:31:13.460 But I'm like, I'm trying to get dinner ready.

00:31:15.180 Like this will be so easy to just have him watching the screen.

00:31:18.440 And so I do think there's a powerful pull on us as parents where it just becomes such an easy thing to opt for.

00:31:25.560 And so just actually eliminating screens from your house or moving them to inconvenient locations.

00:31:30.140 I've had so many families say, our TV is now down in our basement.

00:31:33.780 It's not in our central living area.

00:31:35.460 So that it's not such a visual reminder all the time of something that's so easy to just put on.

00:31:41.500 And I think it's the same with tablets.

00:31:42.980 Just trying to eliminate screens from your house will just make it easier to not give in.

00:31:47.700 And in a moment of parenting weakness where you're like, it's five o'clock.

00:31:50.740 I'm tired.

00:31:51.400 Where's my husband?

00:31:52.200 I'm trying to get dinner ready.

00:31:53.260 All three kids are screaming at me.

00:31:54.960 I mean, that is a moment of parenting weakness where handing an iPad feels like a really easy solution.

00:31:59.940 Yeah.

00:32:00.160 Yeah.

00:32:00.460 So I know that you said that bigger screens are better than smaller screens.

00:32:03.820 So TV, you know, watching with siblings is better than individually playing.

00:32:08.280 But it does sound like you're also saying, okay, when it's 530 and you're cooking dinner

00:32:13.100 and everyone is crazy, that it's not the best thing to do to turn on the TV.

00:32:18.260 Yeah, it's not.

00:32:19.420 Okay, so what should parents do?

00:32:21.280 Yeah.

00:32:21.560 And I think part of that is anything that's like a daily habit.

00:32:26.020 Like if it's screen time is always 530 when mom's getting dinner ready, that still is really

00:32:30.920 powerfully habit forming.

00:32:32.280 And so one of the principles I talk about in the book is that in these families that have

00:32:37.420 really tried to opt out and go through a low-tech lifestyle, any screen entertainment that they're

00:32:42.000 doing is very sparing and it's shared.

00:32:44.840 So the shared part is like watching it together, but it's sparing.

00:32:47.620 It looks like Friday night movie nights or Saturday morning, a nature documentary while mom and

00:32:53.340 dad have a little bit of a slower morning and enjoy their coffee together.

00:32:56.560 But it's not something that's like a daily habit or occurrence where the kids come to expect

00:33:01.740 it and crave it, really.

00:33:04.060 That habit formation is so powerful at these young ages.

00:33:08.000 And it's also the opportunity cost, like thinking to yourself, what could my kids do instead of

00:33:14.060 putting on a show?

00:33:15.320 And it does take creativity.

00:33:17.060 I mean, my kids end up doing Play-Doh often at the kitchen table, which gets everywhere.

00:33:22.020 I was talking about this with a mom the other day.

00:33:23.860 I think if you are trying to be a low-tech home, it means embracing a little bit of a life of chaos

00:33:29.020 and mess.

00:33:29.720 It's not always as convenient to me as a mom to say, OK, I'm going to let my kids go wild

00:33:34.000 with Play-Doh because I'm going to have to help them clean that mess up afterwards.

00:33:37.240 But then the relationships that form through them playing with their Play-Doh creations,

00:33:42.620 the creativity that emerges, it just it makes it so much so worth it.

00:33:47.160 And so I think then that reinforces for me, like, I'm glad we're not opting for daily

00:33:51.860 screens because this is what they would miss out on if we were.

00:33:55.740 And would you say the right amount of tablet time is zero?

00:34:00.080 So even if someone says, we only do tablets when we're flying, we only do tablets for like

00:34:06.120 a couple hours every two weeks or something like that, you would say it's better to have

00:34:10.540 zero minutes.

00:34:11.880 I would. And I realize that's a strong stance.

00:34:14.680 And so I also just want to recognize, like, that is where I'm at because of my research.

00:34:19.320 But I also give parents stepping stones to getting there in my book, recognizing that you may not

00:34:24.620 go to that extreme yet, though.

00:34:26.920 I think like there are other time as you see these benefits.

00:34:30.060 I think you may migrate towards that extreme.

00:34:32.660 I would say, like, with travel, I'm not anti-screens during travel.

00:34:36.700 But again, are you opting for a passive screen, like letting them watch a movie on the plane?

00:34:41.360 Or is it something that's individualized and very interactive and very addictive?

00:34:45.980 So there's really there's a lot of differences.

00:34:48.040 And then even the content you're picking, a lot of the modern kids shows like Cocomelon

00:34:53.140 are like super stimulating, bright flashing colors, a lot of frames per second.

00:34:58.540 It's a lot more addicting than a slower moving old movie like Mary Poppins or Sound of Music.

00:35:04.300 So I try to talk through those kind of content choices as well, because you do want to opt

00:35:10.160 for things that are going to be less stimulating to a child's nervous system.

00:35:13.520 When we realized I didn't know, you know, I remember learning about like the frame rate

00:35:17.660 and how the frame rate is so fast with Cocomelon.

00:35:20.540 And I, you know, didn't know that.

00:35:23.000 But once we learned that, we were like, OK, no more.

00:35:25.760 And plus, it really is not like an edifying educational show anyway.

00:35:29.940 So it wasn't like ever a centerpiece in our family's life.

00:35:32.820 But then we were like a lot more intentional about what TV we did allow them to watch,

00:35:39.700 because it's not just about, OK, we obviously don't want woke themes and, you know, all of that.

00:35:44.940 But it's also about the how.

00:35:47.240 And like you said, the medium is the message.

00:35:49.400 Yeah.

00:35:49.960 So there's just so much to think about that it almost is easier to just say, OK, we're

00:35:54.760 only going to have screens in this context.

00:35:57.740 Otherwise, you're constantly monitoring.

00:36:00.060 And it's a lot of work.

00:36:01.240 Yeah.

00:36:01.540 And I would say, too, like with a long airplane ride, try to like make the screen the last

00:36:06.580 resort.

00:36:07.120 I feel like I see a lot of families get on the plane and like in two seconds, the screen

00:36:11.200 is out and you're like, this child is going to be doing screens like this entire flight.

00:36:15.320 Whereas, you know, try the coloring book first or a story or other activities where it's

00:36:20.940 like that screen becomes the very like last resort when you're like, OK, our kids now need

00:36:25.180 to make it through the last like 30 minutes of this flight.

00:36:27.480 We will let them watch a show.

00:36:29.420 A quick story on Cocomelon that I think is just fascinating.

00:36:33.060 There was this article in The New York Times that was talking about how the episodes are

00:36:37.100 designed and they actually have children that they're testing the shows on sit and watch

00:36:41.860 the episode.

00:36:42.420 And then next to the screen with Cocomelon is a screen they called the real life-a-tron that

00:36:48.420 shows scenes from real life, like a mom cooking dinner, a dad vacuuming.

00:36:53.040 And any time the child looked away from Cocomelon and found the real life scene more interesting,

00:36:59.860 the episode makers would note that down where that timestamp was in the show and then they'd

00:37:04.100 go back and they'd add more music, brighter lights, flashing colors to that point in the

00:37:09.060 show because they wanted to be immersive and addictive to a child.

00:37:12.980 They don't want the child looking away from the screen to what's going on in the real

00:37:16.020 life next to them.

00:37:17.080 And so I do think it's worth just, yes, as parents, like really thinking critically about

00:37:22.080 the kinds of content we're letting our children take in when we do have those sparing moments

00:37:26.920 of screen time.

00:37:28.340 Wow.

00:37:28.840 That is so fascinating about Cocomelon.

00:37:31.760 And who would sign their kid up to be like the subject testing for the Cocomelon?

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00:39:16.240 So let's move into what some parents would say is even more difficult.

00:39:21.500 And I don't have teenagers yet, so I can't speak to this, but you've done research and

00:39:26.060 you've talked to all of these parents.

00:39:28.160 Say the person who's got a 15-year-old and they've had an iPhone since they were 12.

00:39:33.900 And the parent says, okay, but this is so much of a part, like, it's so much of a part of

00:39:39.480 my child's life.

00:39:40.740 I trust my child.

00:39:42.160 They're a good girl.

00:39:43.580 And all of their friends are on social media.

00:39:46.860 They're texting all of their friends.

00:39:49.560 This is how they stay in the loop.

00:39:51.020 This is how they build those relationships.

00:39:52.840 And we've got rules around the iPhone, so it's fine.

00:39:56.640 But maybe they're starting to hear this and they're thinking, did I give it too early?

00:40:01.640 Is it possible for that parent to take the iPhone away from their teenager?

00:40:06.720 It is possible.

00:40:07.900 I know that that sounds shocking to parents because they're like, but how?

00:40:11.440 They've had it for three years.

00:40:13.080 They're 15.

00:40:14.020 They're going to leave for college in three years.

00:40:15.940 Like, it's too late.

00:40:17.660 It is not too late.

00:40:18.740 I've actually spoken with parents who had teenagers who had a phone and took it away.

00:40:23.020 And they weren't saying it was the easiest thing to do, but that it was the best thing

00:40:27.840 for their child.

00:40:28.720 And I think that's what we have to keep in mind, that making these changes doesn't always

00:40:33.360 mean it's going to be the easiest path, but it is going to be the best for their long-term

00:40:38.380 flourishing.

00:40:39.080 And what I would say to a parent is, I hear from a lot of parents, well, we're giving them

00:40:43.220 a smartphone, but they won't have social media on it.

00:40:46.320 Any child safety expert will tell you that is not true.

00:40:49.400 There are thousands of portals to the internet in a smartphone.

00:40:53.920 Every app has its own in-app browser, which I don't think a lot of parents are aware of.

00:40:58.720 So it's own portal to the internet.

00:41:01.220 Often third-party parental controls or filters that you install cannot block what's happening

00:41:06.920 on the in-app browser.

00:41:08.340 And so I talk about this in the book, but a child can actually get to Pornhub inside of

00:41:13.500 Snapchat in just five clicks.

00:41:15.940 They never leave the app.

00:41:17.200 A parent would have no idea because Snapchat blocks all external controls.

00:41:22.220 And so to a parent, if they have any software set up, it just looks like their child is

00:41:26.380 spending a lot of time inside of Snapchat.

00:41:28.460 But the parent has no oversight or insights into what the child is doing or seeing.

00:41:34.620 And so I've just heard from parent after parent, like parental controls are a myth.

00:41:38.400 The best they can do is just tell you where your child is spending their time, not what they're

00:41:42.520 doing.

00:41:42.840 And if you just think back to the tech company side of this, they don't want parents involved

00:41:49.240 in knowing what's going on in these platforms.

00:41:51.460 So there is no parental consent required whatsoever for a child to make a social media account.

00:41:56.860 There is no parental consent required whatsoever for a child to access the app store or to download

00:42:03.080 any app.

00:42:04.000 And so one study found that one in four nine to 12-year-old boys have been on an online

00:42:09.980 dating app.

00:42:10.960 Oh, my goodness.

00:42:12.200 Which is horrifying.

00:42:13.000 I mean, like Hinge or Tinder or Bumble, because this mom was saying that is the most recommended

00:42:19.720 apps.

00:42:20.240 Like she went in her son's 12-year-old app store and she said even though she had the

00:42:24.060 app store configured to show him only apps appropriate for a 12-year-old, it still said

00:42:29.020 that your top rated apps are Hinge, Tinder, TikTok, and Bumble.

00:42:33.400 And so it's no surprise then if there's no parental consent involved to download that

00:42:37.180 app and these are advertised to children in the app stores, that it's not shocking that

00:42:42.300 this many children would be on it.

00:42:43.560 And so I just try to explain to parents it is impossible to effectively lock down a smartphone.

00:42:48.880 When you hand a child a smartphone, you are inviting the entire world into the task of

00:42:54.320 raising that child with you.

00:42:55.600 People who do not share your worldview, there is just so much potential.

00:43:00.180 And they don't care about the interest or the safety of your child at all.

00:43:02.520 And there are predators.

00:43:03.920 I mean, they have recognized that social media is an easy way to access children.

00:43:08.680 It's really sad.

00:43:09.580 But it is too easy for predators to reach them.

00:43:12.340 It is too easy for inappropriate, violent content, pornography to reach your child on a

00:43:18.520 smartphone device.

00:43:19.300 And I feel for parents because I feel like the tech companies have sold them this myth,

00:43:24.000 just enable our parental controls and your kid will be fine.

00:43:27.220 And they're just, it's sadly not true.

00:43:28.800 Kids are not protected on these things.

00:43:31.040 Okay, listen to this.

00:43:31.820 I haven't talked about this story yet and I've been meaning to because I spoke with the legislator

00:43:36.300 who is trying to push this legislation in the state of Texas.

00:43:40.080 So the Wall Street Journal, this is the exclusive.

00:43:43.320 Tim Cook called Texas Governor Greg Abbott to stop online child safety legislation.

00:43:49.700 So let me read a little bit from this article.

00:43:52.320 Apple stepped up efforts in recent weeks to fight Texas legislation that would require the

00:43:56.620 iPhone maker to verify ages of device users, even drafting chief executive Tim Cook into

00:44:03.480 the fight.

00:44:03.940 That is how little they want to verify the ages of those using the app.

00:44:08.740 The CEO called Greg Abbott to ask for changes to the legislation or failing that for a veto.

00:44:16.000 Okay, so he's saying we want you to veto this all together.

00:44:19.620 In the weeks leading up to its passage, the bill's passage, Apple hired more lobbyists to

00:44:24.460 pressure lawmakers.

00:44:26.620 An interest group it funds targeted the Austin, Texas area with ads saying that legislation

00:44:30.940 is, quote, backed by porn websites, which is not actually true.

00:44:35.560 It's not.

00:44:35.880 Um, Texas would be the largest state to adopt this app store accountability law, um, be,

00:44:43.200 and you could probably explain it better than I could, because right now these apps, as you're

00:44:48.880 saying, they say that, oh, you know, this is only for adults or this is for, um, kids under

00:44:55.220 the age of 17.

00:44:56.040 But then you get on these apps and some of these apps have like how to suicide guides.

00:45:00.760 They've got pornography for children.

00:45:03.080 And so this legislation is trying to say that these kinds of apps should not even be available

00:45:08.340 to users that you know are minors.

00:45:11.340 Are minors. 0.80

00:45:11.800 Absolutely.

00:45:12.160 And Apple is saying no.

00:45:13.300 Yeah.

00:45:13.580 No, this is crazy.

00:45:14.500 I'm so glad you brought this story up.

00:45:15.960 So I've been involved with some of these laws.

00:45:18.100 So Utah has passed the App Store Accountability Act law.

00:45:20.940 Now Texas has, which is amazing.

00:45:22.820 Texas is the largest state to have it.

00:45:24.440 And, um, a coalition of child safety experts have been working on these bills because of

00:45:29.460 the gap I just mentioned that a child can just access the App Store without a parent's

00:45:33.960 consent.

00:45:34.200 And they can download literally any app, apps rated as 17 plus, like adult apps, like OnlyFans.

00:45:41.160 And so this law would actually put parents back in the driver's seat to say a parent is

00:45:45.700 going to be the right authority over whether a child gets a certain app or not.

00:45:50.400 And so it's parental consent would be required for each app download under this law.

00:45:55.860 And yes, the devices like Apple, those companies would be responsible for verifying a user's

00:46:01.320 age.

00:46:01.660 And if they are a minor, ensuring they obtain parental consent before they just have unfettered

00:46:06.540 access to the App Store or downloading any of these apps.

00:46:09.340 So it's an amazing solution.

00:46:11.020 I'm very excited.

00:46:12.180 And why wouldn't Apple want that?

00:46:13.460 Just because it's more work?

00:46:14.860 It would cost them money.

00:46:16.240 Why wouldn't they just say, you know what, this is probably worth it.

00:46:19.540 Even just PR wise, this is worth it.

00:46:21.860 It's because at the end of the day, they're a for-profit business and teenagers make up

00:46:26.640 a huge percentage of their business.

00:46:29.100 And they know that if parents are in the driver's seat, they are going to really curtail the kinds

00:46:33.080 of apps kids are accessing.

00:46:34.620 And the thing is, Apple makes a commission.

00:46:37.100 Every time an app is sold in the App Store, it gets 30% of that sale.

00:46:41.400 Wow, 30%.

00:46:42.020 30%.

00:46:42.740 I did not realize it was that high.

00:46:44.480 And so Apple has a vested interest.

00:46:46.680 They want their apps to be downloaded, purchased by kids willy-nilly.

00:46:50.940 They don't want parents to be in the driver's seat.

00:46:52.960 And they also recognize the younger they get a child interested in their App Store and their

00:46:57.460 apps, there are ads in the App Stores.

00:46:59.880 Like, a lot of their business model is advertising.

00:47:02.400 So the more time and attention that a child is spending in their App Store, the better for

00:47:06.620 their business.

00:47:07.300 And so, of course, anything that would threaten their bottom line, they're going to stand up

00:47:11.400 to.

00:47:11.580 So it's shocking that he actually called the governor, Tim Cook did.

00:47:16.120 But like...

00:47:16.980 Over this.

00:47:17.700 It just speaks to how important this is to their business model.

00:47:20.960 Yeah.

00:47:21.680 Wow.

00:47:22.120 So that's just to emphasize the point that parents, there is so much, when you let your

00:47:27.780 child have an iPhone, even if you say, I'm not going to let them download these apps,

00:47:32.180 there is so much working against you.

00:47:34.400 It's not just, well, yeah, it might naturally lead to temptation, but a lot of things lead

00:47:40.600 to temptation.

00:47:41.620 No, no, no.

00:47:42.540 This is a concerted effort by the most powerful people in the world to ensure that your child

00:47:48.880 has access to pornography, to suicidal content, and to content that will ruin their lives and

00:47:55.800 make their brains mush. 0.91

00:47:57.160 Yes. 0.87

00:47:58.000 No, it's true.

00:47:58.920 They don't care about protecting children.

00:48:01.600 I mean, parents care, but the tech companies don't.

00:48:04.080 And that is like the biggest lie, that they want you to use their products, just put the

00:48:07.360 parental controls in place.

00:48:08.860 If they really wanted parents to have control, then they would be rejoicing at the passage

00:48:13.280 of this app store law that would let parents consent.

00:48:15.920 They wouldn't even need a law.

00:48:16.980 They would have done it themselves.

00:48:18.100 And so you just, you can't take them at their word, unfortunately.

00:48:21.480 They are not, their interests are not aligned with children's interests and they're not aligned

00:48:25.060 with parents' interests.

00:48:26.200 Yeah.

00:48:26.940 And for teenagers, because we're still kind of talking about the why behind taking away the

00:48:31.820 phone from the teen and ensuring they don't have an iPhone and especially don't have social

00:48:37.000 media and all that stuff, it has an effect on self-esteem.

00:48:39.980 It still has an effect on emotional regulation.

00:48:42.680 It does.

00:48:42.980 Because as you said, that prefrontal cortex still is not developed.

00:48:46.720 They can still get addicted to it.

00:48:48.380 I saw a woman the other day.

00:48:49.840 She was very brave because now she is phone free and she's like maybe 20 years old.

00:48:54.280 But she said that she doesn't remember five years of her life because for five years of

00:48:59.140 her life, she spent six to 10 hours a day, and this included COVID and everything as a

00:49:05.040 child, looking at TikTok and looking at Instagram.

00:49:08.940 And she thankfully like snapped out of it and realized, I don't want my life to be that.

00:49:13.460 I want to remember.

00:49:14.560 Yeah.

00:49:14.840 I want to have memories.

00:49:16.140 Yes.

00:49:16.520 I mean, there are times certainly where I've been texting or I've been looking at something

00:49:20.020 and I look up and, you know, five minutes has passed.

00:49:22.280 I don't even know what happened.

00:49:23.760 I didn't even realize.

00:49:25.020 And if that's true for us, it's true for kids.

00:49:27.040 And that amounts, even if it's 10 minutes every day, which it's never for kids, by the

00:49:31.740 way, they're using iPhones for hours and hours a day.

00:49:34.420 Yeah.

00:49:34.580 We're talking months of their life that is being wasted and cannot be brought back.

00:49:41.420 You get one childhood.

00:49:42.960 You do.

00:49:43.400 You get one childhood.

00:49:44.760 And I'm so glad you brought that up.

00:49:46.560 I mean, that really is the question is like, what do we want our kids' memories?

00:49:49.440 Their childhood memories to be filled with.

00:49:51.980 And something else, like these kids are more connected than ever on the smartphones, but

00:49:56.480 we have this epidemic of loneliness and mental health crisis among teens.

00:50:00.540 And something I found so interesting in my research was that they're getting dopamine on

00:50:05.520 the phones.

00:50:06.200 They're not getting oxytocin.

00:50:08.040 So oxytocin is a hormone that is released when we're in person with someone else.

00:50:12.600 Eye contact, physical touch.

00:50:14.280 It's what bonds a mom to her baby.

00:50:16.280 It bonds husband and wife.

00:50:17.780 It bonds friends.

00:50:18.700 The kids, you don't get oxytocin through a screen.

00:50:22.080 And so they're not actually forming deep friendships.

00:50:24.860 It's all these shallow connections based on metrics like likes and followers.

00:50:29.780 And so even if they're connected, they are incredibly lonely.

00:50:33.220 They don't have real friendships.

00:50:34.700 And so when you take that smartphone away, getting back to your original question that

00:50:38.360 is it possible to take a 15-year-old's phone away?

00:50:40.540 It is.

00:50:41.120 And what you do is you help that child then reenter the real world, that they can then

00:50:46.220 form real friendships and not be on their device.

00:50:49.000 And families who have done this, they say that they wish they had just done it sooner.

00:50:53.820 Because I'm not saying it's not going to be initially hard.

00:50:56.640 There is going to be a period of withdrawal.

00:50:58.280 But you have to just intentionally then fill their lives with real world things.

00:51:02.440 And especially with a teenager.

00:51:03.940 I heard from parent after parent, if you take away the phone, which is this immense kind

00:51:08.920 of privilege of giving them all this freedom in the virtual world, if you restrict that

00:51:13.440 virtual freedom as you should, you need to give them more freedom in the real world.

00:51:17.580 Freedoms that will actually help them progress towards adulthood and take on more real world

00:51:22.540 responsibilities.

00:51:23.520 This was like my favorite chapter of the book to write, which was trading screens for real

00:51:27.180 world responsibilities.

00:51:28.860 And just what these families then filled childhood with helping kids take on adult-like chores

00:51:33.380 around the house, becoming responsible for doing the grocery shopping and making a meal

00:51:39.080 for the family, and then turning that outward even into service to others in their communities.

00:51:44.060 And it's just, what's amazing is that service to others in your family, in your community

00:51:49.120 is an amazing antidote to anxiety.

00:51:51.220 They're like, our kids weren't anxious anymore because they weren't focused on themselves and

00:51:55.500 how many likes or followers they had.

00:51:57.320 They were serving their family, serving other people.

00:52:00.320 And so even if you only have three years left with your child before they go to college,

00:52:05.060 those are three years that you can fill with real world memories and you can help them

00:52:09.720 reform their habits for the habits that you'd want them to have when they enter adult life.

00:52:15.360 And so it is, it's never too late to reverse course and try to help your child develop the

00:52:20.620 skills that you want them to have as an adult.

00:52:23.420 And they might be angry.

00:52:25.660 Oh, yes.

00:52:26.660 I mean, teens, yes.

00:52:27.820 Teens are going to be angry.

00:52:29.100 Yes.

00:52:29.880 Yes.

00:52:30.320 And they might be angry, but you're still their parent.

00:52:33.200 Yes.

00:52:33.480 You're still their parent.

00:52:34.300 That's right.

00:52:34.660 And they are under your roof and they can follow your rules.

00:52:39.040 And as you said, it might not be easy, but you go through that detox period and it might

00:52:45.600 be hard because all of their friends have phones.

00:52:47.920 Yeah.

00:52:48.220 And as you said, though, this is a good opportunity to teach them, well, we're not like everyone

00:52:52.420 else and you don't have to live like the world.

00:52:54.620 And this is better for you.

00:52:55.640 I'm giving you a leg up actually compared to a lot of your peers.

00:52:59.820 Let me end on our final sponsor, and that is Faith Under Siege.

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00:53:21.280 And reportedly, there are evangelical believers there who are enduring the seizing of churches,

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00:53:57.040 When it comes to where policy comes in, because we're talking about parental authority, which

00:54:06.860 is so important, and that's going to have the biggest change or biggest impact on your

00:54:13.540 child's life.

00:54:14.260 Yeah.

00:54:14.560 But where does the law come in?

00:54:16.420 Oh, thank you for asking.

00:54:18.140 I think it's a really important question, and I often get this response, oh, well, we don't

00:54:22.660 need better laws.

00:54:23.520 Like, just leave it up to parents, and I have tried to explain.

00:54:26.740 It's actually, it's a both and.

00:54:28.340 Yes, parents are always ultimately responsible.

00:54:31.760 They are on the front lines to protect their children, but there are aspects to these harms

00:54:36.660 that are collective in nature that individual parents cannot fight on their own.

00:54:41.860 So one of the biggest laws I've worked on is laws to restrict online pornography websites

00:54:47.300 so that you have to be over the age of 18 to access a pornography website. 0.82

00:54:51.680 This is an example of a law that really helps to back parents up, because I, as a parent,

00:54:56.220 could install all the filters on our home computer.

00:54:58.980 I could shut everything down.

00:55:00.360 They don't have a smartphone.

00:55:01.400 They don't have social media.

00:55:02.820 But if they can go to school, and their friend on a smartphone can easily just pull up

00:55:07.380 Pornhub and stick it in my child's face, now that's a collective problem. 0.99

00:55:11.140 And so why should it only be on parents to protect kids from pornography websites?

00:55:15.480 Why is it not on the pornography websites to make sure they're age-restricting their

00:55:19.120 content so that minors aren't accessing that?

00:55:21.500 And now those laws have passed in 23 states.

00:55:24.080 The state of Texas has one.

00:55:25.720 I've been very involved in because it's being decided by the Supreme Court.

00:55:29.460 Like, any day now, the case, Free Speech Coalition versus Paxton, which will rule on the

00:55:34.460 merits of whether or not that law is constitutional.

00:55:37.540 Are you hopeful?

00:55:38.520 Oh, I am hopeful.

00:55:39.360 I was actually in the courtroom for oral arguments, and I was mainly encouraged that the justices

00:55:44.460 seem to understand that in the smartphone social media era, the idea that filters are

00:55:50.180 a more effective, less restrictive means of protecting children from online pornography

00:55:55.280 just has not been true.

00:55:57.020 That filters have been largely ineffective, and putting it on individual parents with filters

00:56:00.960 is not a sufficient solution.

00:56:02.660 So regardless of exactly how they come down, they may not rule on the merits of the law,

00:56:07.720 but send it back down to the Fifth Circuit to be reviewed under a different legal standard.

00:56:13.080 I am confident that they are going to ultimately get to the right outcome, which is saying that

00:56:17.780 states have to be able to legislate in this area because parents on the front lines do need

00:56:23.180 backup.

00:56:23.920 That it's not enough to leave it up to parents.

00:56:26.840 And just speaking of it as a justice issue, I believe that all children deserve to be protected

00:56:32.720 from pornography, not just children who come from in families with like very involved parents.

00:56:39.160 But I care about the children that may have parents that aren't as attuned to what's going

00:56:44.200 on on the social media websites and the online platforms.

00:56:47.980 And so I think there's an important role for the law to play when we recognize that something

00:56:53.280 is so harmful for childhood, we don't just leave it up to individual parents.

00:56:57.820 Like we haven't let the decision on whether or not a minor can buy tobacco or alcohol up

00:57:03.900 to individual parents.

00:57:04.780 We've set an age for that to be 21.

00:57:06.960 And I think it needs to be the same with online pornography or social media that there's

00:57:11.640 collective solutions that the law has a role to play in backing parents up and also ensuring

00:57:17.440 that all America's children are protected.

00:57:20.980 Absolutely.

00:57:21.840 And so what can we do in that policy realm, just as parents, in addition to what we're

00:57:27.260 doing in our own home and trying to, I say, raise a respectful ruckus in our communities

00:57:33.140 and in our schools, what can we do to make sure there are these legal protections where we

00:57:38.680 live?

00:57:39.360 I just really encourage parents to raise their voices, to make their opinions known to their

00:57:44.720 legislators, to their lawmakers, especially at the local level.

00:57:48.320 Talk to your school board members.

00:57:50.240 School boards are very influential in terms of the types of policies that are happening

00:57:53.900 during the school day.

00:57:54.940 A lot of parents have very successfully advocated for getting phones banned from the entire school

00:58:00.700 day from bell to bell.

00:58:01.900 We see more and more school districts and states adopting these policies that are having huge

00:58:07.000 benefits for kids, protecting both the learning and social environment of the school day.

00:58:11.720 Because maybe you can't impose that all parents don't give their kids smartphones and social

00:58:15.860 media, but you can at least protect the school day.

00:58:18.680 So I think just starting with your local school board members, but then also talking to your

00:58:23.120 state legislators.

00:58:23.900 As we just mentioned, there are a lot that states can do in this area, like age-restricting 0.99

00:58:28.940 pornography websites, requiring parental consent for app stores, or requiring parental consent

00:58:34.680 to get a social media account.

00:58:36.320 And then even at the federal level, like call your senator, call your representative and

00:58:42.160 tell them that you care about these issues.

00:58:44.040 Because what I often hear from members who are working on these issues is that the big

00:58:49.740 tech lobby is so loud and so powerful that it's really difficult for these legislators to

00:58:56.920 kind of hold their ground.

00:58:59.220 And so if parents, their constituents are calling them and saying that this matters to them, that

00:59:03.420 this is important, they will take that seriously.

00:59:06.060 And it can help them stand up to just the army that big tech just descends on these legislators.

00:59:12.780 Yes, because lobbyists do have power. 0.92

00:59:14.720 But at the end of the day, every person who is running for re-election, whether it's now

00:59:20.760 or later, like they want to be re-elected.

00:59:22.800 And they're not getting voted for by the lobbyists.

00:59:24.920 That matters to a degree.

00:59:26.620 But at the end of the day, they want to get re-elected.

00:59:29.040 And the voters are going to re-elect them.

00:59:30.880 So in the state of Texas, for example, we need to be, you need to be calling Governor

00:59:36.940 Abbott's office, but even calling your legislators to ensure that they know that you support them

00:59:43.540 and that you don't want this bill to be vetoed.

00:59:46.740 I think that's important too.

00:59:48.700 No, it truly is.

00:59:49.760 And I'll just say this, like parents, when we band together and raise our voices, really

00:59:54.620 can make change happen.

00:59:56.440 You know, I'm sure you're familiar with Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. 0.99

00:59:59.360 MAD is like a very powerful example of how moms who were upset about their kids getting

01:00:05.440 harmed by drunk drivers banded together.

01:00:07.780 And it was immensely powerful.

01:00:08.960 Within years, they had the national drinking age raised to 21 and then also had different

01:00:14.780 laws passed in the state level.

01:00:16.400 And it just took parents coming together.

01:00:18.500 And so I think we need a similar movement of parents when it comes to social media and

01:00:23.660 smartphones.

01:00:24.500 Absolutely.

01:00:24.880 Well, Claire, thank you so much.

01:00:26.760 The Tech Exit, A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones.

01:00:31.620 I just really encourage everyone to arm themselves with this book, not only for your personal use,

01:00:36.160 but when you're calling your legislator, when you're getting a meeting with him or her, when

01:00:40.700 you're talking to the teacher, to the administrator with fellow parents, you're not just going to

01:00:44.680 be able to say, well, I feel this way.

01:00:46.520 You're going to say, no, this is what the facts say.

01:00:49.060 That's right.

01:00:49.420 And this can actually work, by the way.

01:00:51.340 It's not just some hypothetical scenario where some people somewhere could maybe one day take

01:00:56.340 their phones away from their kids.

01:00:57.720 It's really worked for families and it can work for your family too.

01:01:01.040 Claire, thank you so much.

01:01:02.140 I really appreciate it.

01:01:03.660 Yeah.

01:01:03.840 Thank you for having me.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 29, 2025

Ep 1197 ｜ It’s Not Too Late to Take Away Your Kid’s Phone ｜ Guest： Clare Morell

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