Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1207 ｜ Therapy Whistleblower Exposes Forced Sexual Rituals at Catholic University ｜ Naomi Epps Best

00:00:00.000 Naomi Best is a student at Santa Clara University, a Catholic university in California, where

00:00:18.700 she is receiving her master's in marriage and family counseling.

00:00:22.420 She is now sounding the alarm about the very disturbing sexual content in the classes that

00:00:29.480 she is required to take to graduate.

00:00:32.560 She is telling her story to us today and the consequences she has had to endure for speaking

00:00:38.420 up about this.

00:00:39.860 She is a related gal.

00:00:41.360 She is a fellow Christian.

00:00:42.980 And so don't just listen to or watch this story, but rally around her and share her arrows.

00:00:48.340 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Olive.

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00:00:59.480 Naomi, thanks so much for taking the time to join me.

00:01:12.540 If you could first just tell us who you are.

00:01:15.480 Yeah.

00:01:15.820 So I'm a mom.

00:01:17.920 I'm a wife.

00:01:19.220 That's most important.

00:01:21.140 And I am also a therapy student.

00:01:23.840 So I go to Santa Clara University, which is a Catholic school, and I am training to become

00:01:28.520 a therapist.

00:01:29.800 And before we get into your story, I want to hear a little bit more about you.

00:01:34.540 I know you're a Christian, but how did you become a Christian?

00:01:38.860 By listening to Relatable.

00:01:41.560 I'm serious.

00:01:42.720 I actually am.

00:01:43.860 It means a lot.

00:01:44.480 In 2019, I think it was 2019, I heard the gospel for the first time from you, and I bought

00:01:51.460 a Bible, and that's the first time I had held a Bible.

00:01:54.980 Wow.

00:01:55.640 In 2019.

00:01:56.960 And what has the journey looked like since then?

00:01:59.860 I mean, it's been great.

00:02:02.580 I think coming to faith has been so spiritually nourishing and also psychologically helpful

00:02:08.980 for me.

00:02:10.320 I was living with no faith, and it gave me anxiety, to be honest.

00:02:16.660 I felt this existential dread and lack of meaning in the world and my purpose and fear, a lot

00:02:25.920 of fear and confusion about what's going on in the world.

00:02:30.320 And having a relationship with God and even if folks just want to call it a higher power

00:02:36.560 because I'm speaking to secular people too, that's my background.

00:02:40.120 Having that sense of faith is so nourishing.

00:02:46.080 And I'm guessing that your faith had something to do with your issue, with what was going

00:02:54.480 on at your university, what is going on at your university, Santa Clara.

00:02:58.660 Yeah.

00:02:59.000 And so tell us about that.

00:03:00.700 What went down and why you decided to speak up about it?

00:03:04.000 Right.

00:03:04.680 Yeah.

00:03:04.960 So one of the final classes I have to do to graduate is called human sexuality, and that

00:03:09.860 is a requirement for marriage and family therapists in California to have some education on human

00:03:16.780 sexuality.

00:03:17.820 But when I first enrolled in this course in summer of 2024, I dug into the syllabus and

00:03:23.940 I was shocked by the sexual ethic that was being not just presented but promoted.

00:03:31.540 I immediately discovered sadomasochistic erotica.

00:03:35.280 So for those who don't know what that is, sadomasochism is folks getting pleasure off of inflicting

00:03:43.720 pain on another person, and then some folks receive, you know, drive pleasure from being

00:03:48.980 hurt.

00:03:50.400 So this woman, it was a marital dispute between a husband and wife, and she got upset so she 1.00

00:03:57.080 took off her collar.

00:03:58.200 And this is in a book that you were required to read?

00:04:01.380 Yes, that's correct.

00:04:01.800 And of course, that was required to graduate.

00:04:04.460 Yep.

00:04:05.540 Yeah.

00:04:06.140 So she took off her collar, which is a symbol of submission and terms of agreement or something

00:04:12.700 in this culture.

00:04:14.200 And she was punished with violent gang rape. 0.99

00:04:19.520 I'll call it rape. 1.00

00:04:20.740 Wow. 0.98

00:04:21.220 Because she was crying.

00:04:22.980 And, you know, I, to me, if there is a terms of service and then you take off your collar,

00:04:30.100 it seems like the terms of service no longer apply.

00:04:32.740 Yeah.

00:04:33.320 I don't know how it works.

00:04:34.380 But her, you're saying as a punishment for that, her husband arranged for her to be gang 0.99

00:04:39.260 raped. 0.60

00:04:39.580 And this was a lesson or an, like an idea, a concept, a story, a firsthand account, right?

00:04:45.720 That you were reading in a book.

00:04:48.620 And it was not just a clinical description.

00:04:52.400 It was like a titillating description.

00:04:54.460 Oh, yeah.

00:04:54.940 She goes, oh, and I presented my this way and my that way.

00:05:00.180 Sorry, Allie.

00:05:00.920 It's okay.

00:05:01.620 But I know that you're just showing like this is the kind of pornography that you were being

00:05:08.220 taught in class.

00:05:09.540 And as a person, but also as a Christian, you took issue with this, right?

00:05:14.780 Yes.

00:05:15.520 I mean, having to affirm non-judgmentally folks being gratified by inflicting violence

00:05:24.940 upon another person offends how I see the dignity of the human soul.

00:05:29.360 Yeah.

00:05:30.020 And they said, well, you might see this in therapy one day.

00:05:33.060 So you're inoculating yourself.

00:05:36.020 That's the word they use?

00:05:36.740 Yeah.

00:05:36.780 The chair said that this is an inoculation to sexual content that we might one day come

00:05:42.120 across.

00:05:42.580 And I'm thinking to myself, if a client comes in and they're describing that they're engaging

00:05:48.280 in these practices, that's one thing.

00:05:50.100 It's another thing to read titillating BDSM erotica.

00:05:53.400 Okay.

00:05:53.780 So they're saying if you have a couple that you are talking to that is into that kind

00:06:00.640 of thing, the submissive, dominant, wearing collars, gang rape, like you need to be prepared

00:06:07.420 for that so you don't look shocked in front of the couple that is coming to therapy for

00:06:12.840 that?

00:06:13.640 Presumably that's the steel man argument for this curriculum.

00:06:17.260 Okay.

00:06:17.480 What I try to tell the program over the course of almost a year is that I understand that

00:06:23.900 there is a wide breadth of human sexual behavior.

00:06:26.500 And yes, it'll be important for me to be able to listen as a therapist if somebody comes

00:06:30.620 to me and says that they are partaking in these practices.

00:06:35.040 It does not require me to engage in the reading of erotica that is meant to titillate.

00:06:41.500 And also, I don't have to affirm BDSM uncritically as a therapist.

00:06:50.240 And there's a big push in therapy programs right now to affirm and accept and suspend judgment

00:06:58.180 for anything sexually as long as there is legal consent.

00:07:03.080 And I just reject that that is the proper way to do therapy.

00:07:09.080 Not judging somebody is important, right?

00:07:12.060 Every individual is made in the image of God.

00:07:14.200 And if somebody is partaking in a particular practice, that does not make them less valuable

00:07:21.440 as a human being.

00:07:22.660 Right.

00:07:23.260 But they are asking me to suspend discernment.

00:07:27.760 And to suspend your value system.

00:07:31.120 And in this case, I mean, we're talking about rape.

00:07:36.520 And so this is where like the consent-based model for morality or the consent-only-based

00:07:42.380 model for morality is really slippery because they're presenting you with this situation that

00:07:48.940 they are saying is on the spectrum of normal.

00:07:52.040 You might run into this and you should have no shock.

00:07:54.960 You should have no judgment whatsoever.

00:07:57.660 But that woman isn't technically, I mean, she's not consenting. 0.99

00:08:01.760 I guess they could say, well, she consented at some point to being submissive and that

00:08:06.820 was part of the rule book.

00:08:08.280 I mean, that's crazy though.

00:08:09.580 That's crazy.

00:08:10.680 And that's why it's not enough to just say, well, technically she consented.

00:08:14.040 It's still wrong and violative and probably illegal.

00:08:19.740 Just because somebody gives legal consent does not make that psychologically healthy.

00:08:26.500 Right.

00:08:27.020 And that's part of your job, right?

00:08:29.560 That is part of my job, presumably to help a client identify what is healthy for them.

00:08:34.660 And that has been a gaping hole in my education.

00:08:36.940 I am not provided an education in how to discuss these issues with clients.

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00:09:54.400 Okay, so first, I know we're going to get into more of the courses and the things that

00:10:03.560 you were required to read and then what you did in response to that.

00:10:07.080 But you picked Santa Clara University, which is a Jesuit university, right?

00:10:12.100 And a Jesuit, that's a subset of the Catholic Church.

00:10:15.580 And they typically are known to be, I think, a little more progressive.

00:10:19.880 And you're in the state of California.

00:10:21.980 But what drew you to their program?

00:10:24.940 Part of the reason I chose to go to a Catholic university is because I thought that there

00:10:28.500 would be tolerance for the Christian worldview.

00:10:30.740 Yeah.

00:10:30.980 That is not the experience that I've had.

00:10:32.920 No, not at all.

00:10:34.360 Okay, so you had this course that highlighted BDSM.

00:10:39.340 Was that the first thing that you were introduced to that was that sexually explicit that made

00:10:46.100 you stop and say, I don't want to participate in this?

00:10:48.760 I was reading the syllabus and I saw where the content was going and I saw the ethos.

00:10:54.400 Of the curriculum, which is admittedly something I was concerned about because this is a cultural

00:11:00.240 issue.

00:11:00.940 And I'm not naive to the fact that therapy culture is extremely progressive.

00:11:06.580 And so I was concerned that the consent-only based ethic was going to be the prevailing norm.

00:11:12.620 Okay, so this was this past year?

00:11:15.220 Yeah, this was in summer.

00:11:16.500 Okay.

00:11:16.960 This was in summer.

00:11:17.680 So I stayed in that class for all of two classes because the second class I was put into a group 0.80

00:11:25.000 of people, four people, one of whom was a man, and we were asked to discuss our masturbation. 0.88

00:11:30.480 And I said no. 0.98

00:11:32.540 Yeah.

00:11:33.020 Also in that class, the final exam was an eight to 10-page comprehensive sexual autobiography.

00:11:39.860 So they were asking us to answer questions like, when did we first start masturbating?

00:11:44.420 What are key sexual moments in our history? 0.68

00:11:47.180 Detail our sexual past and present.

00:11:49.640 What are our erotic goals for the future?

00:11:51.980 And how will we achieve those?

00:11:53.820 Oh my gosh.

00:11:54.540 So when I read that, I said, no, I'm not writing my sexual inventory for anybody to read.

00:12:01.860 So I tried to get an accommodation, and I was denied.

00:12:05.260 The chair said that this requirement has been in place since the 1980s, and this is a violation

00:12:11.940 of the American Psychological Association's ethical codes.

00:12:15.880 Ethics code 7.04 bars psychologists from requiring students to self-disclose, particularly sexually.

00:12:22.880 Wow.

00:12:23.160 And so this was a required course.

00:12:25.820 Yes.

00:12:26.100 These were required assignments.

00:12:28.980 This was a required book that you were reading.

00:12:32.360 And when you went to the chair and you asked, hey, is there any way that I cannot be a part

00:12:39.920 of this because why?

00:12:41.420 It violates your conscience.

00:12:42.940 And as you said, it violates that code.

00:12:45.480 Yeah.

00:12:45.980 And you were met with, this is how it's always been.

00:12:48.300 She said that Muslim students had been given the accommodation to take the course remotely,

00:12:54.100 but they still had to complete the comprehensive sexual autobiography, read the erotica.

00:12:59.240 And as well, there was a pornographic illustration guide that was openly hostile to the Christian

00:13:05.300 faith.

00:13:05.640 It was written, quote, as revenge for my Catholic upbringing, something like that. 0.79

00:13:10.560 Um, in this, there were just crude illustrations of all sorts of sex acts with however many

00:13:19.060 number of people.

00:13:20.960 And I didn't want to read that.

00:13:23.300 I think that it is probably illegal to force me to consume pornography.

00:13:28.080 Yeah.

00:13:29.360 Especially when it's just not relevant.

00:13:32.420 Not that it would ever be relevant.

00:13:34.220 I know.

00:13:34.840 But I mean, we're talking about marriage and family therapy.

00:13:38.260 There is no, you know, something that you said I thought is an important point here is

00:13:43.800 that it's one thing to learn about things in a clinical setting or something that is written

00:13:50.180 scientifically, objectively, clinically.

00:13:52.420 But you're saying that the materials that you had to read were purposefully titillating.

00:13:57.880 Yes, that's right.

00:13:58.960 That's right.

00:13:59.160 So it was supposed to be turning people on and re, I mean, this is what pornography does. 0.96

00:14:04.700 It rewires your brain to desire certain things.

00:14:08.220 That's right.

00:14:08.460 And so that's the kind of content that you were being forced to read.

00:14:12.000 Inoculated with.

00:14:13.080 Yeah.

00:14:13.420 And have we not learned that people don't like forced inoculations?

00:14:17.480 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:19.560 And I would just think about those though that don't have your same value system who did start

00:14:25.040 reading this and who knows like what dark path of pornography this puts people down.

00:14:31.380 And I have a hard time believing that the Muslim students were reading this stuff and 1.00

00:14:37.360 participating in an autobiography talking about their sexual journey and their erotic goals. 0.90

00:14:43.320 And if so, and if they were mandated to do that, that's highly concerning.

00:14:48.060 Right.

00:14:48.780 Right.

00:14:49.080 So you wrote about this in the Wall Street Journal.

00:14:51.840 Yeah.

00:14:52.260 This happened last summer, summer of 2024.

00:14:56.120 And you wrote an op-ed detailing everything that went on that you weren't able to get

00:15:02.540 an accommodation, right?

00:15:03.680 They basically said, no, you have to take this course.

00:15:06.280 You have to complete this course.

00:15:07.520 You decided to go public with it.

00:15:09.420 Tell me about making that decision.

00:15:11.100 Yeah.

00:15:11.280 So like I said, this is a required course to graduate. 0.58

00:15:16.820 So once I dropped the course after being asked to talk about my masturbation, I re-enrolled 0.67

00:15:22.440 a couple of times.

00:15:23.560 I tried to get an accommodation.

00:15:25.500 Eventually, this different professor with a new syllabus, I reached out to him and I said,

00:15:31.420 hi, Muslim students have been given the accommodation to do this course remotely.

00:15:34.500 I would like to have that accommodation, please.

00:15:36.620 Something to that effect.

00:15:37.540 Yeah.

00:15:37.700 And instead of granting the equal accommodation, he scheduled a Zoom meeting with me and he promised 0.96

00:15:43.000 a atmosphere of professionalism and no required sexual disclosure.

00:15:47.600 Okay.

00:15:48.220 That was a mistake.

00:15:49.940 Okay.

00:15:50.160 So you believed him.

00:15:51.360 I believed him.

00:15:52.060 Yeah.

00:15:53.080 I believed him.

00:15:54.000 And I agreed to go in person.

00:15:56.960 And I tried to keep my head down and get through it.

00:16:00.680 But the events that took place in that class were so shocking.

00:16:05.080 Um, we were asked to write things down that we dislike about our genitals or breasts. 0.51

00:16:12.460 That is so weird.

00:16:13.780 Anonymously.

00:16:14.200 Don't worry.

00:16:14.880 It's anonymous.

00:16:15.900 Um, but we were to write it down and then the professor gathered them up, shuffled them

00:16:20.020 up, redistributed them.

00:16:21.240 And then we read them out loud in the class.

00:16:23.700 So that's not really anonymous.

00:16:25.120 Or, or you like, did you have to mix and match?

00:16:27.760 Like, did you have to read someone else's?

00:16:29.420 That's right.

00:16:29.740 Or were you reading?

00:16:30.260 Oh, that's right.

00:16:31.060 No, I was reading somebody else's. 0.98

00:16:32.180 So I read something that somebody else disliked about their genitals. 0.99

00:16:36.040 I mean, the teachers just sound like perverts and they're forcing their students to play 0.99

00:16:41.680 along in their fetishes. 0.96

00:16:43.820 That's what it sounds like.

00:16:45.960 I'm not going to call anybody a pervert, but you can.

00:16:49.500 I mean, I'm just saying, I'm just deducing some things here.

00:16:53.360 I know.

00:16:53.920 It's very strange.

00:16:54.160 I know.

00:16:54.480 So there was that.

00:16:56.040 There was also, um, this guest psychologist came in and said, quote, only trans women

00:17:03.940 have that can blow up the world.

00:17:05.900 Oh, gosh.

00:17:07.120 Sorry.

00:17:08.420 No, I mean, if they said it and you were forced to hear it.

00:17:13.220 Um, yeah, I'm, I'm just reporting what's going on in therapy classrooms.

00:17:17.440 People are going to come at me and say that I'm a culture warrior.

00:17:20.680 I was just trying to get my degree to become a therapist.

00:17:24.380 And I think that the fact that this is a elite education at a Catholic school is relevant

00:17:30.480 to the public.

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00:18:37.680 Okay, so when you're in that class, as you said, you re-enrolled.

00:18:46.660 You said, it's going to be fine.

00:18:48.940 What did you do when you were met with those assignments that you didn't agree with?

00:18:54.760 Well, I kept my head down until this final class where we were shown a sex dungeon tour. 0.73

00:19:03.200 So a female influencer was brought into a commercial sex dungeon. 1.00

00:19:08.800 She was flogged, gagged, wrapped in plastic, had a knife drug across her upper chest area, 1.00

00:19:16.840 made to jump up and down to humiliate herself, put in a guillotine. 1.00

00:19:22.520 And watching somebody derive sexual gratification by humiliating and harming another individual

00:19:31.160 was so disturbing to me that at the end of the video, the professor goes,

00:19:40.120 so what do you think?

00:19:40.920 Who wants to try it?

00:19:42.980 And at that point, I just stood up and I said, no, I'm not doing this anymore.

00:19:48.240 Are you the only one standing up?

00:19:50.540 Yes, yes.

00:19:51.740 Did you ever talk to any fellow students who felt the same way as you?

00:19:56.660 One reached out to me, actually.

00:19:58.760 One did.

00:19:59.780 He DM'd me on Instagram and he said something to the effect of,

00:20:03.280 I'm so sorry that you had an emotional reaction because I did.

00:20:06.320 I'm not ashamed of that.

00:20:07.760 And, you know, I think that the way that he presented this material was inappropriate.

00:20:12.040 So that's one person.

00:20:13.340 Okay.

00:20:14.200 Some kind of solidarity or sympathy.

00:20:17.540 It was more sympathy.

00:20:18.240 Maybe not even solidarity.

00:20:19.400 Yeah.

00:20:19.740 Yeah.

00:20:20.020 Just sorry that you feel that way.

00:20:21.740 Exactly.

00:20:22.420 So I walked out of the class and I emailed the professor or sorry.

00:20:28.060 No, I emailed the chair and the dean what had happened.

00:20:30.900 I detailed everything that had just gone on.

00:20:33.840 And I said, I'm not going back to this class.

00:20:37.880 I would like the remote accommodation that Muslim students were given. 1.00

00:20:40.860 Please, please, please.

00:20:42.780 Yeah.

00:20:43.140 And they said, no, drop the class or we'll drop it for you.

00:20:46.880 Wow.

00:20:47.240 And I said.

00:20:47.740 So they gave these Muslim women an accommodation, but not the Christian woman. 0.99

00:20:52.740 Yeah.

00:20:53.860 Yeah.

00:20:54.360 Apparently.

00:20:54.740 Apparently.

00:20:54.780 Apparently.

00:20:55.580 Apparently.

00:20:55.600 Apparently.

00:20:55.620 Apparently.

00:20:55.640 Apparently.

00:20:55.680 Apparently.

00:20:55.740 Apparently.

00:20:55.780 Apparently.

00:20:55.800 Apparently.

00:20:56.800 So I asked for a refund and the chair said, the fact that you're expecting a refund is astonishing.

00:21:03.300 I'm like, wow.

00:21:05.500 That's astonishing.

00:21:06.320 I also have things to share that are astonishing that just happened.

00:21:10.540 I'm astonished.

00:21:11.860 Yes.

00:21:12.160 Um, so meanwhile, all of this is happening.

00:21:17.480 I've been deeply concerned about ideological capture and therapy, and I've been writing

00:21:22.360 a book on the side during my studies.

00:21:25.260 Um, part of that research has been reaching out to people who have been raising these concerns.

00:21:31.680 So Dr. Sally Sattel, who I know, you know, is a psychiatrist and she has been writing about

00:21:37.840 ideological capture and psychiatry for 20 years.

00:21:40.900 So when I saw her writing, I was so relieved and I reached out to her and bless her heart.

00:21:47.720 She took me under her wing and said, Naomi, this is important.

00:21:53.600 You need to write it down.

00:21:54.800 Yeah.

00:21:55.260 And so I wrote it down.

00:21:56.440 I submitted it to the Wall Street Journal and they ran the story and it's amazing.

00:22:00.600 It is.

00:22:01.460 I'm super grateful because I'm not, this isn't just a student grievance.

00:22:07.020 This is relevant to everybody who trusts therapists implicitly with their psyche, with their children's

00:22:14.520 psyche.

00:22:15.740 I mean, this is the training that we're getting.

00:22:18.080 Yeah.

00:22:18.520 And it's been going on for a while.

00:22:21.620 Yeah.

00:22:21.880 This is not just like in the past few years.

00:22:24.480 Exactly.

00:22:25.400 Yeah.

00:22:25.660 And I'm, I'm late to the party.

00:22:27.120 I want to say, I am standing on shoulders of people who have been ringing the alarm bells

00:22:32.860 and trying to get this message out.

00:22:35.360 I think that this op-ed struck a nerve because of the, probably because of the sexual nature

00:22:43.040 of it.

00:22:44.020 Yeah.

00:22:44.360 Frankly.

00:22:44.980 And it's just hard to believe.

00:22:46.680 Yeah.

00:22:46.980 It's hard to believe.

00:22:47.660 Even in California, even at a Jesuit university, it's just hard to believe that there wouldn't

00:22:54.620 be any sense of embarrassment or shame by these professors.

00:22:59.140 There's no shame in the game.

00:23:00.120 It's just completely unapologetically showing people BDSM porn in class and somehow trying

00:23:08.080 to loosely justify it by saying, well, one day maybe a client of yours could be into this

00:23:14.400 and you need to know about it now.

00:23:16.440 Yeah.

00:23:17.100 And I do want to say that the person was clothed until they were wrapped bare in plastic, but

00:23:22.320 it doesn't matter.

00:23:23.480 It's the, the inoculation is to watching people harm one another and get off on it.

00:23:31.460 Yeah.

00:23:32.320 My goodness.

00:23:33.500 Okay.

00:23:33.780 So when you asked again for this accommodation a second time, you were given a one-time exception

00:23:41.840 that you can withdraw and pay out of pocket for continuing education.

00:23:45.980 And add extra units to graduate without a tuition refund.

00:23:50.380 Correct.

00:23:51.160 So that was the only recourse that you were given.

00:23:53.860 And what did you do at that point?

00:23:56.760 Yeah.

00:23:57.280 Um, I took the continuing education course in human sexuality.

00:24:01.800 I've completed that.

00:24:02.840 It was totally reasonable.

00:24:04.240 There's nothing, nothing of this nature.

00:24:06.760 And that's one thing that the, the university keeps stating, this is standard across programs.

00:24:13.580 One, I don't think that it is because it violates ethical codes.

00:24:17.340 And the content is so egregious and over the top.

00:24:21.780 If it is true that this is going on all over the country, that's even worse.

00:24:28.560 Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:30.140 Okay.

00:24:30.680 It wasn't just the sexual content though.

00:24:34.060 That was disturbing.

00:24:34.780 And you were also required to take a course called multicultural counseling.

00:24:40.100 Tell me about that.

00:24:41.960 Yeah.

00:24:42.340 So multicultural counseling, the, the goal of the course is to increase competency in speaking

00:24:49.380 to people of diverse backgrounds.

00:24:51.180 Great.

00:24:52.220 On board.

00:24:52.700 Um, in the class, it was critical race theory.

00:24:57.340 One of our textbooks was Robin DiAngelo's White Fragility.

00:25:01.120 Um, for those who don't know, critical theory is essentially a worldview that, um, dismantles

00:25:08.080 and subverts what they view as the oppressive hegemonic power structures of the age.

00:25:13.680 And it's not just a diagnosis of the problem.

00:25:16.100 It's a prescription to, for revolution.

00:25:19.660 Um, so part of that course, I had to start mock therapy sessions by saying something like

00:25:26.860 this.

00:25:28.360 Hi, thank you so much for coming into therapy.

00:25:31.280 Um, I just want to start by acknowledging that I'm white and, um, I see that, you know,

00:25:36.820 you're a person of color and I may make missteps and misunderstand you and please feel free to

00:25:42.680 correct me.

00:25:44.260 So here's the thing.

00:25:46.380 Therapists will make missteps and make assumptions and make mistakes.

00:25:53.040 That goes for every single client.

00:25:54.960 You don't need a race-based warning at the beginning of therapy.

00:25:58.480 Yeah.

00:25:59.100 Unprompted.

00:25:59.840 Right.

00:26:00.020 If a client wants to come and they're a person of color and they're like, hey, you know, 1.00

00:26:04.300 I'm worried that you might misunderstand me because you're white. 0.81

00:26:06.660 Like, okay, let's talk about that.

00:26:08.940 Awesome.

00:26:09.600 Like, let's have a conversation.

00:26:11.160 That's not what this was.

00:26:12.040 This is, it's programming.

00:26:13.360 It's ideological programming. 0.88

00:26:15.220 And it's assuming because you are white, you will make mistakes and you cannot understand 0.98

00:26:21.360 your client who has more melanin than you.

00:26:23.780 That seems to me, if I had a therapist who was apologizing and going ahead and telling

00:26:31.080 me that they're going to make a mistake, which again, everyone's human.

00:26:34.860 There will be mistakes.

00:26:35.840 But telling me that they're probably going to misunderstand me because we're so different.

00:26:40.220 I'm like, I don't think that I want you to be my therapist anymore.

00:26:43.920 Yeah.

00:26:44.040 But it's kind of a form of self-punishment and self-humiliation for white people.

00:26:48.180 Yes.

00:26:48.660 That's what it felt like.

00:26:50.040 And you were taught that linear thinking and delayed gratification, making a plan for the

00:26:56.800 future, that these were all examples of white culture.

00:27:00.440 Yes.

00:27:00.800 That's in my textbook.

00:27:02.660 It's called Counseling the Culturally Diverse by Daryl Dwing Stu.

00:27:07.480 And on my sub stack, I'm writing about these issues and pulling out exactly what's being

00:27:13.440 taught to therapists because it's in the public's interest to know.

00:27:16.820 He says that part of white culture is what you just listed.

00:27:22.020 Essentially, anything that will lay the foundation to be a successful person is whiteness. 0.98

00:27:29.380 Yeah.

00:27:30.040 And he was saying it in a negative way, right?

00:27:32.180 Like he wasn't saying this is good.

00:27:34.220 I mean, he taught – the book is full of critiques on whiteness and then he says this

00:27:40.040 is white culture.

00:27:41.060 Yeah.

00:27:41.620 So, I mean, I could put two and two together, I think.

00:27:44.500 So, as a therapist, like if you're like talking to someone who is addicted to instant

00:27:50.300 gratification, which is not good, by the way, like you – say there were a so-called person

00:27:56.580 of color, a racial minority, they're saying that you shouldn't say, hey, like let's

00:28:03.760 talk about delayed gratification.

00:28:05.680 Let's talk about making a plan for the future instead of just doing what you want in the

00:28:09.600 moment.

00:28:10.020 Well, Allie, I would never impose my whiteness on somebody.

00:28:12.380 Yeah.

00:28:13.240 That's what they're saying that you would be doing.

00:28:15.240 Pretty much.

00:28:15.800 I mean, that's what I'm reading.

00:28:17.360 And I don't think – because it's really interesting.

00:28:19.960 In the program, there's the true believers and then there's the go along to get along

00:28:23.540 people.

00:28:24.060 Oh, yeah.

00:28:25.340 I think that the professor who was teaching this course was going along to getting along,

00:28:30.680 which begs the question, why aren't you standing up and using critical thinking and

00:28:34.760 encouraging us to do the same?

00:28:36.240 Yeah.

00:28:37.060 Well, it costs.

00:28:38.660 And there are very few incentives for critical thinking.

00:28:43.300 Very few.

00:28:44.180 In fact, you are incentivized by power and by money to not critically think and to not

00:28:50.940 ask questions and to not stand up.

00:28:53.840 And most people want an easy life.

00:28:56.680 Yeah.

00:28:57.240 I know.

00:28:58.320 That's a horrifying realization for me because if somebody is working in a specific industry,

00:29:04.940 I'm not going to dunk on some industry, but therapy, come on, we're called to be people

00:29:10.700 of integrity.

00:29:12.200 Yeah.

00:29:12.480 It's all of these psychologists who are just failing me and I'm watching moral cowardice

00:29:17.840 and it's nauseating.

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00:30:47.360 Okay, we missed one thing when it came to the sexuality subject.

00:30:51.160 Because it wasn't just adult sexuality that y'all focused on.

00:30:56.080 Y'all also talked about children and the belief that a child can transition to the opposite

00:31:03.420 gender or the opposite sex. 0.96

00:31:05.300 And y'all were told that that's something that you had to uncritically affirm, right?

00:31:09.400 Yes.

00:31:10.020 Yeah, exactly.

00:31:11.700 So we were taught that if a child comes to us and they are experiencing extreme gender-related

00:31:20.300 distress, which, by the way, is very real.

00:31:22.460 And I have compassion for people who have a deeply felt incongruence between their sex

00:31:29.420 and how they perceive themselves and want to be perceived.

00:31:31.920 I am trained that for when a child comes into my practice, let's say they're 12 or 13, and

00:31:40.320 they say, let's say that they're a girl, and they say, I am a boy.

00:31:45.260 It's my ethical obligation in this profession to affirm them in their belief and to not act

00:31:52.380 as a gatekeeper for their medical treatment.

00:31:54.880 That's what you were taught.

00:31:58.420 That is what I am taught at this university, and that is what is being propagated down from

00:32:03.840 the psychological governing bodies in this country.

00:32:06.420 Yeah.

00:32:07.000 Which is so sad because I've talked to so many detransitioners. 1.00

00:32:10.600 I'm sure you've heard their stories.

00:32:12.180 Yeah.

00:32:12.720 And every single one says that there was a therapist who didn't ask questions, that checked

00:32:19.360 off the boxes, and these therapists are so often hand-selected by the local gender clinic 0.99

00:32:25.820 and then recommended by the local gender clinic. 0.90

00:32:28.800 And so you're only going to the therapist that will completely, uncritically affirm this

00:32:35.980 person's choice.

00:32:37.040 And if they say, you know, I also am anorexic, or I also have bipolar disorder, or I'm also

00:32:43.200 on the autism spectrum, the therapist is not supposed to question whether that person really

00:32:49.900 has gender dysphoria or whether they are really transgender.

00:32:53.840 They're supposed to ignore all of that and say, yes, here is your letter of recommendation

00:32:58.620 to go on puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, get your breasts cut off, even as a teenager. 0.92

00:33:05.600 That is what not everyone in the therapy world, but a significant chunk of the therapy world

00:33:11.300 is doing today, and it sounds like it's because that is exactly what they are taught to do

00:33:15.480 at universities.

00:33:16.660 Yes, exactly.

00:33:17.980 That is by design in this profession.

00:33:20.580 And there are great therapists out there who will ask deeper questions and will walk

00:33:25.380 with a child who has gender dysphoria and provide them good care.

00:33:30.140 But those individuals are going against the ethical standards and guidelines in our profession,

00:33:35.880 and they're taking a risk by doing that.

00:33:37.600 So what happened after the Wall Street Journal piece was published?

00:33:41.680 And that was published when?

00:33:43.260 That was published on June 7th.

00:33:45.620 Okay.

00:33:46.280 So two days after.

00:33:48.260 So meanwhile, part of a requirement for me to graduate is a nine-month-long internship,

00:33:54.900 a therapy internship.

00:33:56.300 So the official practicum period starts this fall, but I was just brought on to this organization,

00:34:03.480 this nonprofit, and I was about to start working with them.

00:34:06.920 So after this comes out, I get an email, need to discuss Wall Street Journal.

00:34:12.200 I go, okay, great.

00:34:13.880 I can see the writing on the wall already.

00:34:15.680 But I talked to the director, and I explained everything in detail.

00:34:21.380 And he goes, you know, I think you sound really reasonable, actually, and I want to keep you on.

00:34:27.400 Great.

00:34:28.180 First hurdle.

00:34:28.800 I am then summoned a couple days later to a 15-on-one struggle meeting.

00:34:37.380 It was a struggle meeting.

00:34:38.900 And during this meeting, I was – essentially, character attacks were lodged at me.

00:34:44.860 Who was in this meeting?

00:34:46.040 It was colleagues, so peers, so therapists in training.

00:34:49.500 Okay.

00:34:49.780 And you – who called you to it?

00:34:52.140 The director because he – and I have so much compassion for this guy.

00:34:56.760 I actually am pretty fond of him.

00:34:58.920 But he called this meeting because I think he thought like, oh, well, she sounds reasonable.

00:35:03.400 Let's just get her together with everybody else. 1.00

00:35:05.340 No, these people called me unsafe.

00:35:11.220 They called me, yeah, like a danger to the profession.

00:35:17.260 They – somebody brought a written statement to pass around to everybody, like taking down my arguments and whatnot.

00:35:24.800 I'm like, can we just sit here and have a conversation about it?

00:35:26.840 And I bared my soul to a group of 15 therapists.

00:35:35.420 I really did.

00:35:36.520 And I'm going to share this publicly once and never talk about it again.

00:35:44.180 The reason that I think that we must analyze the BDSM culture critically is because it comes from a place of lived experience.

00:35:56.840 For me.

00:35:57.560 I have experience with somebody who garnered sexual gratification from my pain and humiliation.

00:36:05.520 And I know that legal consent does not mean that something is psychologically healthy.

00:36:14.180 And I'm speaking about this to therapists, saying intimate details about what I've gone through.

00:36:22.740 And instead of compassion, understanding, nothing.

00:36:28.600 I'm harmful by saying that.

00:36:30.980 And I – one woman said, violence – it's not violence if it's consensual.

00:36:38.760 And like, yes, it is.

00:36:41.280 Yes, it is.

00:36:41.880 Of course.

00:36:42.000 So, you know, and I share that not to – not for your audience's sympathy whatsoever.

00:36:52.140 I'm in a happy, healthy marriage and that is way behind me.

00:36:58.940 But that's the – that's the capital in this culture is your lived experience.

00:37:06.180 And I'm saying, hey, I do have lived experience, but it doesn't matter because it goes against the orthodoxy.

00:37:10.960 And that is such a terrible but perfect example of, like, the problem with toxic empathy is that you were told in all these courses, you have to have empathy for the person who likes BDSM.

00:37:24.460 You have to have empathy for the man who orders the gang rape of his submissive wife who violated their terms of agreement.

00:37:32.400 You have to have – that's – I mean, that's literally –

00:37:34.540 Yes, it's literally true.

00:37:35.020 Like, you need to have empathy for that person and that's why we're showing you these things.

00:37:39.800 But when it was the opportunity for them to have empathy for you, nothing.

00:37:45.400 And Abigail Schreier, who is also – she wrote the book Bad Therapy.

00:37:48.880 And I remember when I was still writing my book, she talked about this problem of empathy and how actually empathy taught in schools, it has been found to make the students meaner.

00:38:00.800 Because when you have such intense empathy for one particular victim or one particular misunderstood person, your cruelty and your anger towards the out group, anyone who opposes that perceived victim, is really, really intense.

00:38:19.820 And so because they feel so much for the, you know, misunderstood BDSM person or whatever it is.

00:38:27.440 It's a new oppressive or oppressed group.

00:38:29.120 Yes, and because you are opposing them, it's almost like – it's almost like a mama bear reaction.

00:38:36.400 They have, like, this mother-like protectiveness of the sexual degeneracy in people who practice it, who they perceive as oppressed.

00:38:44.580 And they see you as violating that, endangering that, oppressing that.

00:38:49.520 And Abigail Schreier, she said, full of empathy and mean as hell.

00:38:53.380 And I'm like, yes, that characterizes so many progressive activists.

00:38:59.220 And I call it misplaced mothering because a lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them don't actually have physical children.

00:39:05.880 And so they are placing their natural parenting, mothering or fathering instincts on these, you know, purported victims, these marginalized people. 0.99

00:39:16.160 And it makes them very angry at anyone who opposes them, even when you share your lived experience.

00:39:22.320 Yeah.

00:39:22.620 What a traumatizing event.

00:39:24.440 Yeah.

00:39:24.920 It was traumatizing, actually.

00:39:27.000 And I went in knowing what was going to happen because I have been researching the ideological frameworks that is underpinning all of this.

00:39:37.600 And this is textbook social exile.

00:39:42.500 Yeah.

00:39:42.920 But I went to the meeting as an anthropological exercise to understand this more fully.

00:39:48.660 And to hear, to sit in the hot seat and see what it feels like, to actually be exiled by colleagues and by therapists who are trained to listen and understand.

00:40:01.560 But there was no listening or understanding in that meeting at all.

00:40:05.360 So after the meeting ended, the director, you know, he and I talked one-on-one and I cried.

00:40:15.680 I was like, wow, that was intense.

00:40:16.960 And he goes, yeah, it was intense.

00:40:18.620 You did a great job.

00:40:20.040 You're super articulate.

00:40:21.760 You balanced your own experience with your philosophical concerns, blah, blah, blah.

00:40:29.400 All good.

00:40:31.040 Two hours later, I get a call from him and he says, it's not tenable for you to continue at the organization.

00:40:39.200 And I'm really sorry to do this.

00:40:42.420 And it is because of the intolerance of my staff.

00:40:45.860 And I think that your writing is important and you should keep doing it.

00:40:50.940 Wow.

00:40:52.340 That was so interesting to me because this person, he has the compassion.

00:41:01.420 He sees the injustice.

00:41:02.480 But he is bound by the fealty to the sociopolitical orthodoxy.

00:41:10.460 He's still in the group.

00:41:12.820 And, you know, they made an example out of me.

00:41:15.460 The staff did.

00:41:16.640 And he offered me as a sacrificial lamb.

00:41:18.600 And I just want to say to that professor who probably was at one point, like, a reasonable guy who maybe was courageous enough to stand up for his own views.

00:41:33.280 I just want to say, like, you don't have to submit.

00:41:37.080 Yes.

00:41:37.480 You don't.

00:41:38.360 You don't.

00:41:38.920 It's a choice that you are making.

00:41:41.160 And as you are showing, yes, it might be difficult.

00:41:45.860 It might require sacrifice.

00:41:48.000 You might be ostracized.

00:41:50.460 But how much is the truth worth?

00:41:52.520 Yeah, that's right.

00:41:53.560 If we see this world and this life and our calling is bigger than us, which we all should, then our small sacrifices in the grand scheme of things are really small in comparison.

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00:43:30.220 You also, or I saw that the university sent an internal letter, right?

00:43:38.280 An internal email to the Board of Fellows after your Wall Street Journal piece came out, you know, saying people are concerned by this.

00:43:46.800 I'll just read you part of it.

00:43:47.800 Dear members of the Board of Fellows, thank you to those of you who have inquired about or shared your concerns with me about the op-ed published in the Wall Street Journal by a Santa Clara University graduate.

00:43:58.000 I've attached to you a copy of the university's statement, which helps clarify that this course fulfills a state of California licensure requirement for marriage and family therapists.

00:44:08.460 The course content, they said, all of the sexual stuff that we were just talking about is similar to all other graduate programs across the state that must adhere to these requirements.

00:44:18.740 Well, I believe that.

00:44:19.960 I kind of believe it, too.

00:44:20.720 I believe that.

00:44:21.880 I know that each of us cares deeply about the experience of every student at Santa Clara University.

00:44:26.780 Ah, I don't know.

00:44:28.820 Our faculty and staff take great care to let students know that they understand the sensitive nature of the topics addressed in this course and that they are committed to addressing together any concerns any students may have.

00:44:39.080 It's total gaslighting.

00:44:40.400 They're saying you're super sensitive.

00:44:42.180 Yeah.

00:44:42.680 I'm triggered.

00:44:43.500 I'm a snowflake.

00:44:44.140 Yeah.

00:44:44.780 I'm a little snowflake.

00:44:47.680 It's, yeah, it's shocking.

00:44:49.300 And I wrote a response to this, to their PR statement.

00:44:53.780 And they're just disingenuous.

00:44:55.840 They have such disrespect for their fellows and their alumni.

00:45:02.000 Can I use the word lying?

00:45:04.140 I mean, they're lying.

00:45:05.740 They, they're claiming that there was no required sexual disclosure.

00:45:09.860 Oh, really?

00:45:10.400 Because I was required to write something down that I dislike about my genitals to have it read aloud to the class.

00:45:15.420 That happened to me.

00:45:16.840 Are you saying that didn't happen?

00:45:17.940 And, you know, another thing is like, oh, we take every concern really seriously.

00:45:24.560 And yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:26.800 You know, like we value her opinion.

00:45:29.540 I have been trying to break through to the administration for a year, for a year.

00:45:35.420 I have letters to the dean, the provost, the president, campus ministry, title nine, the ombudsman.

00:45:45.540 I have literally done everything in my power to resolve this quietly.

00:45:50.600 And if President Julie Sullivan got my letter and in that letter I said, hey, this is putting Santa Clara University at legal and reputational risk.

00:46:00.420 If she had just sat down with me and was like, oh my gosh, thanks for letting me know that this is happening and we'll fix it.

00:46:08.960 We could have all ridden off into the sunset, but that's not what happened.

00:46:12.620 That's not what happened.

00:46:13.580 A lot of people are commenting on your story that this is bigger than the therapy world.

00:46:18.100 People are commenting that they've seen similar things even in seminaries.

00:46:22.740 I'm sure in more like progressive seminaries, there's someone named, and I might get his last name wrong, Niji.

00:46:29.720 Maybe that's how you pronounce it, Charles Niji.

00:46:31.700 He is the author of White Shaming, Bullying Based on Prejudice, Virtue, Signaling, and Ignorance.

00:46:35.640 He highlighted that this issue also goes into all realms of higher education beyond just therapy.

00:46:42.520 And he suggests that universities are, you know, increasingly kind of incorporating the very explicit material that you're talking about.

00:46:53.180 And it's, you know, as much as I like to steel man people's positions and to accurately represent them, I can't see like any other, any other justification for this, any other reason for this beyond them wanting their students to be into that kind of stuff. 0.61

00:47:13.100 To be into sexual depravity, to like it, to rewire their brain so that we have a bunch of like sexually degenerate sadomasochistic people walking around. 0.70

00:47:23.760 Yeah. 0.95

00:47:24.340 And I don't know if it's a fetish or if it's something bigger and ideological, but it's very deeply disturbing.

00:47:30.440 It is.

00:47:31.520 And it's funny that you mentioned it.

00:47:33.980 Like you want to steel man and, you know, assume the best motives.

00:47:38.160 And I'm getting like kind of desperate.

00:47:40.600 Like, can you give me a pedagogical justification for this, please?

00:47:45.500 Like I'm trying to work with you here.

00:47:47.480 And another thing that, you know, a conclusion that I've had to come to is this professor in my class where he showed the BDSM stuff, he talked openly about attending these BDSM kink festivals.

00:48:00.500 Yeah.

00:48:00.960 And his own interest in that.

00:48:02.460 And then, so it's like, okay, you're interested in sadism, sexual sadism, and then you're asking us to publicly humiliate ourselves sexually.

00:48:13.580 Hmm. 0.76

00:48:14.260 Hmm.

00:48:14.860 What can we do for that?

00:48:16.480 I'm not going to say the words out loud, but.

00:48:18.940 Yeah.

00:48:19.400 Right.

00:48:19.700 Okay, on June 17th, the dean of Santa Clara, Sabrina Zirkle, sent a letter to you basically trying to refute your claims.

00:48:31.280 Yeah.

00:48:31.660 Saying that the university provided you with multiple accommodations that you declined.

00:48:36.900 They said that they offered an independent study option with the same syllabus and course assignments, but completing them independently and outside of a group setting.

00:48:46.800 She said that they gave you the option to find a course offered at an MFT program at another institution that would transfer the credits and a special exception allowing you to complete this content through approved continuing education classes offered by a third party provider.

00:49:02.980 So what is your response to that?

00:49:04.700 Yeah, I mean, sure, they offered me the accommodation to read the sadomasochistic erotica and write the comprehensive sexual autobiography in the comfort of my own home.

00:49:16.320 Yeah.

00:49:16.740 Not in the classroom.

00:49:17.900 That's unacceptable.

00:49:20.320 And, like, sure, I'll take the one-time exception to complete the sex class somewhere else and transfer it in.

00:49:28.680 I don't want a one-time exception.

00:49:30.440 I want them to be held accountable for institutionalized sexual harassment of every other single student because it's wrong.

00:49:38.540 And I just want to clarify because when you did ask to take the course online, like Muslim students had, and you were told no.

00:49:47.480 Yeah.

00:49:47.640 But she's saying that they did offer you to be able to do that.

00:49:51.980 So originally, in summer 2024, I was offered the remote accommodation to complete with the same syllabus, though.

00:50:01.740 So I didn't get around talking about when I first started masturbating.

00:50:05.380 And then the second time that you took the class, because you dropped the class, you had to re-enroll in the class.

00:50:10.520 That's when you were like, okay, if I have to do it, then let me do the original option that you gave me.

00:50:16.540 And that time, the second time, they said no.

00:50:19.240 They said drop or be dropped.

00:50:20.740 Okay.

00:50:21.820 So she's telling a half-truth here, is that you were offered that at one point.

00:50:27.260 At one point.

00:50:27.660 But then when you asked for it again the second time around, after it got so bad, they told you no.

00:50:33.620 Yep.

00:50:34.560 Okay.

00:50:35.280 And then the university also is trying to dispute your claims about the sexual autobiography assignment.

00:50:43.320 They said, this is their, this is their defense.

00:50:47.900 Please note that you are not required to disclose anything that causes extreme discomfort.

00:50:52.840 Extreme discomfort.

00:50:54.100 Just a little.

00:50:54.660 Just like, you can be a little uncomfy, but not extreme.

00:50:57.120 However, I urge you to share as deeply as you feel comfortable.

00:51:01.540 But you still have to talk about your sexuality.

00:51:03.820 Yeah.

00:51:04.000 Like, you can't talk about going on a walk in a park.

00:51:06.560 But the assignment started with, describe chronologically your sexual past and present.

00:51:12.520 There's no accommodation for those uncomfortable with the prompt to begin with, right?

00:51:17.180 No.

00:51:17.680 There's no accommodation. 0.78

00:51:18.660 And, you know, another thing they said, they're like, well, you didn't have to do, like, you didn't have to talk about when you first noticed your genitals if you wanted to talk more about, like, your masturbation habits. 0.65

00:51:29.600 Like, you can pick and choose. 0.79

00:51:31.000 Nothing is required.

00:51:32.540 Yeah.

00:51:32.860 But I'm asked to complete an 8 to 10 page comprehensive sexual autobiography for a grade.

00:51:40.360 Yeah.

00:51:40.580 There's no getting around the essence of that assignment.

00:51:44.880 And to say that there's no required sexual disclosure, it's a lie.

00:51:49.260 Yeah.

00:51:49.980 The university literally says, under no circumstances were you required to disclose sexual memory, sexual experiences, or any other personal information.

00:51:57.680 False.

00:51:58.760 Yeah.

00:51:59.720 It's just false.

00:52:00.680 And I don't, like, this is something that I'm wrestling with.

00:52:03.700 Why are they, why are they dying on this hill?

00:52:06.920 Yeah.

00:52:07.200 Why is this so important to them, this sexual autobiography assignment?

00:52:11.540 And because they want people to recall sexual memories from when they were a child.

00:52:15.920 I'm sorry.

00:52:16.360 Yeah.

00:52:16.500 That's what I think.

00:52:17.380 They do.

00:52:17.620 I think that that's what it's about.

00:52:19.860 And I think that they like reading about it.

00:52:23.400 That's, I'm not saying, you're not saying that.

00:52:25.020 Naomi's not saying that.

00:52:26.340 Allie is saying that that's what it seems like to me.

00:52:30.160 That is my opinion.

00:52:31.480 That is what it seems like, isn't it?

00:52:38.040 Okay.

00:52:38.560 If you are anything like me, you are not eating enough fruits and vegetables.

00:52:42.620 It's just true.

00:52:43.580 I don't, I don't really like vegetables that much.

00:52:46.060 I don't really like cooking vegetables.

00:52:47.520 I don't really love eating vegetables.

00:52:49.420 I do make myself eat vegetables, but even in that I'm not eating enough.

00:52:54.920 And that's why I really love field of greens.

00:52:58.140 It is a vegetable concoction that I can drink that actually tastes good.

00:53:03.300 I've tried the kind of vegetable, uh, powder drinks that don't taste great, that have a

00:53:09.380 difficult texture that is not true.

00:53:11.300 A field of greens, it actually tastes really good.

00:53:13.800 And this is the difference maker too, between field of greens and maybe some other alternatives.

00:53:18.180 It is all organic.

00:53:20.040 You think that every health drink that you buy out there would be organic, but that's

00:53:24.600 not true.

00:53:25.680 But every fruit, every vegetable that is used in field of greens is actually organic.

00:53:30.820 And so if you are looking to add vegetables to your diet, which we all need to, if you

00:53:37.240 are looking to support vital organs, like your brain, your heart, your liver, your kidneys,

00:53:41.640 your metabolism, if you're trying to boost your immune system by getting the nutrients

00:53:45.580 that you need, then you've got to try field of greens.

00:53:48.540 I've been drinking it.

00:53:49.880 I really like it.

00:53:51.000 I think it's helped me go to field of greens.com use code Allie.

00:53:55.180 You'll get 20% off.

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00:53:57.080 Plus free shipping field of greens.com code Allie.

00:54:05.580 Okay.

00:54:06.240 So they also said, um, they're disputing your account of what happened in class based on

00:54:12.600 input from others who were present.

00:54:14.500 So the kind of people that told you that your experiences don't matter and your perspective

00:54:19.340 doesn't matter.

00:54:19.960 We also do not agree with your assertions about and characterization of what occurred

00:54:23.520 during the class.

00:54:24.360 The class content necessarily examines numerous aspects of human sexuality because understanding

00:54:30.300 these issues is an essential part of preparing students to become licensed therapists.

00:54:34.280 So they didn't actually specifically dispute what you said happened in class that you had

00:54:39.640 to share masturbation experiences. 0.51

00:54:41.460 They didn't say that didn't happen. 0.88

00:54:42.840 They just said it didn't happen exactly like you said.

00:54:46.300 Oh my gosh.

00:54:47.580 Apparently it's essential information for me to learn as a therapist that trans women have 1.00

00:54:52.020 that can blow up the world. 0.87

00:54:53.840 Yeah.

00:54:54.640 Like I'm, I'm so desperate.

00:54:57.760 You, I don't know if you can sense my exasperation.

00:54:59.800 Like, please talk to me.

00:55:01.300 Please acknowledge what happened.

00:55:02.880 Yeah.

00:55:03.200 This is insane.

00:55:04.140 It needs to be fixed.

00:55:05.200 Do they, like, do you still not understand how serious I am about this getting fixed?

00:55:10.920 Yeah.

00:55:11.780 This also, this letter came 11 days after your Wall Street Journal op-ed was released, which

00:55:17.700 means they probably hired a lawyer and a publicist.

00:55:20.460 And I'm sure they have those on hand already.

00:55:22.660 And, you know, they were doing their very best at damage control.

00:55:27.160 Yeah.

00:55:27.520 But obviously, like, it's not going to stop.

00:55:30.200 It's not appropriate.

00:55:31.760 It's not going to stop.

00:55:32.280 And it's, for the students who are too scared to speak up, for the really smart, critically

00:55:37.820 thinking students who want to be therapists one day.

00:55:41.460 Yeah.

00:55:41.900 It's important that people know that if you want to be a good therapist, which means someone

00:55:47.380 who actually understands psychological and sexual health and who has a good moral compass

00:55:52.380 and is grounded, you should not go to a university like Santa Clara University.

00:55:56.900 Don't go and don't give them your money.

00:55:59.740 Yeah.

00:56:00.020 What else do you want people to know?

00:56:04.120 I want people to know that this field is actually on the brink of collapse.

00:56:10.200 And it is happening slowly and then all at once.

00:56:14.160 And we are in the acceleration period.

00:56:17.140 Because critical thinkers, people of faith, people with diverse worldviews, they're being

00:56:24.140 pushed out of this helping profession.

00:56:26.020 And one woman I spoke to, her name is Susanna Alexander.

00:56:31.500 She does a ton of research about the accreditation bodies that license therapists.

00:56:39.080 And KCREP is the biggest one.

00:56:42.760 They license counselors.

00:56:44.720 And she describes it as a money-making cartel.

00:56:49.820 There is incentives for KCREP to become the accreditor in every single state.

00:56:58.360 That is their goal.

00:56:59.300 And they are completely ideologically captured.

00:57:02.720 In fact, FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism, just filed a civil rights complaint

00:57:07.940 against KCREP for religious discrimination, ideological compliance, and a whole gamut.

00:57:16.180 So this is so much bigger.

00:57:21.400 Like, my story, it's a blip.

00:57:23.400 And it's crazy. 0.86

00:57:24.960 And it's about sex.

00:57:25.940 So it's going to get a lot of publicity.

00:57:27.720 The public needs to know that this field is in crisis, in complete crisis.

00:57:33.260 And we need to have an honest conversation right now about where we go from here.

00:57:38.480 Because there is a mental health crisis as well in our country.

00:57:41.840 So where the heck do people go to get good, quality, evidence-based care?

00:57:47.200 Yeah.

00:57:48.300 And what are you going to do?

00:57:50.400 So you're no longer a part of that nonprofit that you were a part of.

00:57:55.100 Are you still enrolled at Santa Clara?

00:57:57.320 I am.

00:57:57.800 And in that email from the dean, she said, you know, we're committed to graduating you.

00:58:03.920 I'm sure they want to get rid of me at this point.

00:58:05.680 And that's probably the best way for them to do it with least exposure.

00:58:09.800 So I'm going to try to graduate.

00:58:11.440 I'm going to try to become a therapist.

00:58:13.180 Because I think that this world needs therapists who can think critically and who have a strong

00:58:19.140 sense of their own moral compass.

00:58:20.700 I am also going to continue bringing light to this issue and holding the leaders of the

00:58:30.680 psychological field accountable.

00:58:33.340 I've been interviewing leadership, American Psychological Association leadership, bringing

00:58:38.060 these concerns to those guys.

00:58:40.400 So I'm going to keep writing about it, keep reaching out, and hopefully warn people that

00:58:46.640 this is a crisis that needs addressing, like right now, right now.

00:58:50.700 How has your family responded to this?

00:58:54.760 You know, my family is so supportive of me that I think I'm crazy, like for exposing myself

00:59:03.380 to this level of publicity.

00:59:06.780 Maybe I am.

00:59:08.100 It's not easy being in the public eye.

00:59:11.160 I didn't want that.

00:59:13.240 But I think somebody has to do it.

00:59:15.600 And I've been put in this position now where I'm having the opportunity.

00:59:18.840 So they have my back.

00:59:20.580 My husband is walking my baby at the beach right now as we speak.

00:59:26.340 And they just want me to keep going.

00:59:28.420 Yeah.

00:59:28.840 And your parents.

00:59:30.100 Yeah.

00:59:30.800 Yeah.

00:59:31.440 My mom.

00:59:33.000 Yeah.

00:59:33.480 My mom and my dad.

00:59:35.060 My dad goes, God, it's so hard having firecrackers for children.

00:59:40.480 Yeah.

00:59:41.220 That's true.

00:59:42.040 Because you just can't help but speak up when something's wrong.

00:59:47.740 Yeah.

00:59:48.300 That's what we have to do.

00:59:49.540 And I think I want to say to everybody who knows this is wrong, who is in the field, speak

00:59:55.580 up.

00:59:56.760 They will threaten you.

00:59:58.840 They will try to exile you.

01:00:01.980 They will attack your character.

01:00:04.140 Say, okay.

01:00:05.680 Just let it roll off.

01:00:06.620 Say no.

01:00:08.220 Say no more.

01:00:09.280 I can say what I think.

01:00:10.620 People are allowed to exist with diverse worldviews.

01:00:13.840 Mm-hmm.

01:00:14.900 It's time to stand up for our right to think critically.

01:00:19.880 Yeah.

01:00:20.180 Like right now.

01:00:21.500 And look, now is the moment because things have shifted.

01:00:24.820 It's not 2020 anymore.

01:00:26.600 People are less tolerant of progressive nonsense. 0.92

01:00:29.280 Like I'm over, like I'm over the white guilt. 0.98

01:00:33.980 I'm over the indoctrinated institutionalized sexual degeneracy.

01:00:39.060 And I am over progressive activists and professors and institutions thinking that they can operate

01:00:45.940 without accountability.

01:00:47.460 Yeah.

01:00:47.660 I'm just completely over it.

01:00:49.600 And a ton of people are over it.

01:00:51.260 Yeah.

01:00:51.420 Not just Republicans.

01:00:52.760 Mm-hmm.

01:00:52.940 I'm talking Democrats, moderates, independents, people from across the spectrum.

01:00:56.880 And so like it's hard to be first.

01:01:00.600 I'm not saying that you're the first to talk about the problems with therapy, but specifically,

01:01:04.320 you know, at this university.

01:01:06.120 But hopefully this creates a domino effect.

01:01:08.900 Yeah.

01:01:09.000 And people listen to this and watch this and they say, okay, this is my moment.

01:01:13.720 Yeah.

01:01:13.840 This is it.

01:01:14.360 This is the final push that I needed.

01:01:16.340 Yes.

01:01:16.620 Okay.

01:01:16.820 This person can do it.

01:01:18.360 I can do it too.

01:01:19.660 Yep.

01:01:20.280 And so that's what I hope that comes of this.

01:01:24.360 But just know like there are a lot of us out there that are willing to support you, pray

01:01:29.880 with you, share the arrows with you.

01:01:31.740 Thank you.

01:01:32.080 And stand up.

01:01:33.040 And that's what all like sharing the arrows is, you know, I talk about a lot.

01:01:35.720 That's what it's all about to say, oh, you're attacking this person for their faith.

01:01:40.420 You can come at me too.

01:01:41.680 You want to call her that name.

01:01:43.360 You can call me that name too.

01:01:44.940 I don't care.

01:01:45.840 Yeah.

01:01:46.080 I don't care.

01:01:47.160 And like that is like a hard, scary place to be and they hate it, but it's also a very

01:01:52.340 freeing place to be.

01:01:54.260 And that's like where the trust and the sovereignty of God comes into play because it's like, okay,

01:01:58.180 God, like I am immortal until you call me home and you've got me.

01:02:03.240 You planned all of this out.

01:02:04.880 Yeah.

01:02:05.540 Yeah, exactly.

01:02:06.620 I mean, I think just to close it out, like, um, thank you.

01:02:12.440 You are one of the people who paved the way for me demonstrating you can speak up.

01:02:17.620 You are allowed to exist with your beliefs and, you know, raise a respectful ruckus, do

01:02:25.700 it kindly, do it in love.

01:02:27.900 Um, because if you have your, your integrity and you're saying the truth with love, you just

01:02:36.360 don't care about the consequences.

01:02:37.920 I don't care anymore.

01:02:39.100 Yeah.

01:02:39.700 Yeah.

01:02:40.020 Well, we're praying for you and we are with you and we're watching this journey.

01:02:43.820 And I know that there will now be thousands and thousands of people who watch this, who

01:02:48.080 are praying for you and supporting you.

01:02:49.780 So is there any specific way that people can help you?

01:02:53.560 Um, I write on sub stack.

01:02:55.380 So if people want to, um, help me by just subscribing, there's a free option.

01:03:00.340 I'm going to monetize it too for some exclusive content.

01:03:04.240 Um, if you're interested in this, because yeah, I just, uh, I might've just blown up

01:03:09.220 my career, but this is a new path and I know that I have support from people.

01:03:14.200 So yeah.

01:03:14.900 Well, man's rejection is God's protection.

01:03:17.020 I read that a long time ago and I think about it a lot and I believe that for your story.

01:03:21.740 So thank you so much for sharing.

01:03:23.920 Thanks, Ellie.

01:03:34.240 Bye.

01:03:46.000 Bye.

01:03:47.100 Bye.

01:03:54.080 Bye.

01:03:54.540 Bye.

01:03:55.300 Bye.

01:03:55.860 Bye.

01:03:56.000 Bye.

01:03:56.220 Bye.

01:03:56.680 Bye.

01:03:57.380 Bye.

01:03:58.180 Bye.

01:03:59.000 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 19, 2025

Ep 1207 ｜ Therapy Whistleblower Exposes Forced Sexual Rituals at Catholic University ｜ Naomi Epps Best

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