Ep 1211 ｜ Israel： What Should Christians Think？ And an Announcement
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 1 minute
Words per Minute
160.13132
Summary
How should Christians think about Israel? We are getting into all of this on today's episode of Relatable, where we discuss the theology of the Bible and what it says about the end times and how it relates to the current theological debate on the right.
Transcript
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We are getting into all of this on today's episode of Relatable.
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It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.
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We are back in studio after a tour of Southern California.
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My family and I have been bouncing around that part of the state for the past two and a half weeks.
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I know California is crazy policy-wise, price-wise.
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The Christian conservatives in California, not just in Southern California, like in Orange County,
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but in other parts of the state as well, different parts of LA, also Central California,
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some of the most solid people that I've ever met.
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I truly feel refreshed when I go to California, not only because it is just such a beautiful state.
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I mean, the weather, the beaches, it's just gorgeous.
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I just love the decorum and the traditions, the culture that the South has.
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I mean, if it weren't for our family not being in California and some of the just absolutely
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crazy policies there, I think CR and I would actually consider moving there.
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I got to interview some incredible guests while I was there in Southern California.
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Some of those guests you have already seen on the show, but some of those guests you have
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I mean, really just amazing in-person conversations.
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I hope that you've enjoyed the ones that you've already gotten to see, and you will definitely
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Also, at the end of this episode, speaking of the show and interviews, I've got an announcement
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It's a good announcement, but it is a significant change to the show that will be occurring next
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week that I will fill you in on and explain a little bit at the end of this episode.
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Because we've been traveling, I just haven't been able to really give my thoughts on the
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And so I went back and forth on what am I going to talk about my first day back in the
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studio, and I decided that I would talk about the possibility of World War III, but not really
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But the theological debate that is raging specifically on the right.
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It's interesting when we have these kind of intra-political or intra-right conversations,
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theological conversations, my nexus that I like to occupy is the intersection of theology
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So as we talk about Israel and Iran and prophecy and the end times, I wanted to try to answer
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There are so many different aspects of this conversation that I won't be able to get into
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today, like all of the different end times positions and how Israel plays into all of
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A long time ago, like OG relatable days, I think back in 2019, maybe, I did a whole episode
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I explained each of the main positions and what I believe about those positions.
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I've also done a two-part discussion with Jeff Durbin, who is a post-millennialist.
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I am a post-trib pre-millennialist, which is like the traditional pre-millennial position.
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I've explained all of that on a previous episode.
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I also encourage you, I will be reading from this book during this episode, but I encourage
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you, if you have not gotten systematic theology by Wayne Grudem, you can go to the part where
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he explains all of the positions about the end times, also known as eschatology, the study
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or knowledge of the end times, and you can see what each position holds in detail.
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But within that conversation is the question about Israel.
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And just like almost anything else, there are disagreements.
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And so I will go over the various positions of what Bible-believing, true, authentic, gospel-preaching
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Christians believe about this, because it's not a salvation disagreement that Christians
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have, but it is significant, and it can actually determine what we think about geopolitics, and
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Before we get into the theological aspect of it, if you have been kind of unplugged from
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the news and you're just plugging back in, let me just give you a very quick and brief
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overview of the Iran-Israel conflict that is going on.
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So on June 13th, 2025 amidst the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict, Israel launched a surprise attack
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on Iran, targeting nuclear and military sites to disrupt its nuclear program and eliminate
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key leaders, Iran retaliated with missile barrages on Israeli cities, causing damage and injuries
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Both sides escalated, with Israel striking Iran's energy sector and military facilities while
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So I was in California while this was happening when the initial attack happened.
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I was actually on my way with CR to the Fox News Bureau in Los Angeles, and I was going
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to talk about Alex Padilla, who J.D. Vance refers to as Jose Padilla, and everything that
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And they told me 10 minutes before I was about to get there, hey, actually, can you come on
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an hour before and can you talk about what just happened between Israel and Iran?
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I brought my perspective to that, tried to bring it back to the position that President Trump
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is in and that America is in, since I am primarily concerned about the United States.
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President Trump posted this on June 22nd, talking about U.S.'s intervention.
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He said, we have completed our very successful attack on the three nuclear sites in Iran, including
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A full payload of bombs was dropped on the primary site.
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Congratulations to our great American warriors.
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Initially, Trump acted like he had no idea what Israel was doing, didn't get involved.
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Secretary Rubio was like, you know, support Israel.
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But it sounded kind of like he was distancing America from what Israel was doing.
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And so at first, when Israel initially launched their attacks, it was very unclear whether America
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A lot of people on the right, again, disagreeing about what to do there.
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But as I just read to you, Trump decided, yes, America is going to get involved.
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And then on June 23rd, he said, congratulations to everyone.
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This is what he posted on Truth Social in all caps.
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He said it has been fully agreed by and between Israel and Iran.
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There will be a complete and total ceasefire in approximately six hours from now.
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So they were supposed to halt all hostilities between the two countries after Trump says
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But then very quickly after that, I mean, there was a reason I wasn't really posting about
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But even after it seemed like it was resolved per President Trump's post, I didn't post
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about it because honestly, when I read that, I was like, I don't believe that.
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But I just don't believe that that's that, that the war is over.
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I mean, these countries have been going at it for thousands of years.
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And suddenly we're just going to stop because Trump said, I just didn't believe it.
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And so, yes, there were mutual accusations of violation shortly after the ceasefire was
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Iran alleged that Israeli drone strikes violated the agreement.
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And then Trump had a moment that a lot of people are quoting because he dropped another
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But just so you know, the moment that people are talking about, Satwan.
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You know, when I say, okay, now you have 12 hours, you don't go out in the first hour
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But I'm really unhappy if Israel is going out this morning because the one rocket that
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didn't land, that was shot, perhaps by mistake, that didn't land.
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We have, we basically have two countries that have been fighting so long and so hard
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that they don't know what the f**k they're doing.
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I mean, he could have felt humiliated that he had publicly said, look, I negotiated this.
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And then Israel, he says, violated that agreement and made it seem like he didn't have any power
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and that Trump wasn't actually successful in that.
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Not only, I'm not saying that it was all about personal ego for Donald Trump.
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I think anyone would have been like, what the heck, from a place of personal embarrassment,
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perhaps, but also just anger, because I do think that Trump wants peace.
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I don't think that he wants America to be involved in this.
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Maybe he sees it as necessary for a variety of reasons, not just to protect Israel, but because
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Iran, as a lot of people have said, is the head of the snake.
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They fund all kinds of terrorist regimes that threaten the United States as well.
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They've been chanting death to America, death to Israel for many decades.
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But all of this has caused a big disagreement within MAGA.
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You've got the more pro-interventionist part of MAGA.
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You've got the anti-interventionist part of MAGA.
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And it doesn't neatly necessarily lay over the categories that I just explained.
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But you've got a part of MAGA that is more pro-Israel.
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You've got a part of MAGA that is less pro-Israel.
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You've got a part of MAGA that is completely anti-Israel.
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But underneath all of this is really a theological debate.
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And that was highlighted in an interview between Tucker Carlson and Ted Cruz when Tucker, who is, I would say, pretty anti-interventionist, especially when it comes to Israel, and then Ted Cruz, who is very pro-intervening on Israel's behalf, they got into a theological conversation, which we will get into in just a second.
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Let me tell you that in the midst of all of the craziness happening in the world, the potential
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4,000 Christian women together at Share the Arrows, led by Grammy Award-winning artist Francesca
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It's happening again this year, October 11th, Dallas, Texas.
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We've got a motherhood panel with Hilary Morgan Ferrer and Abby Halberstadt.
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I'm probably not supposed to tell you that here, but I'm going to.
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Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed
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And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things.
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I don't have the scripture off the tip of my, you pull out the phone and use the Bible.
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You don't know where in the Bible it is, but that's like your theology.
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Number one, because biblically we are commanded to support Israel.
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You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology and I am a Christian and I am allowed
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We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.
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We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed.
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Yet nations exist and he is discussing a nation.
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Is the nation God's referring to in Genesis, is that the same as the country run by Benjamin
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Cruz also said, the reason that I am the leading defender of Israel is because Israel is our
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strongest ally in the Middle East, an incredibly troubled part of the world, and supporting
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So here are some questions that I think that we should ask.
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We learned in 2020 the vital importance of defining our term.
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What does the verse actually mean that Cruz cited?
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Have these things manifested itself in America, aligning with Israel?
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Before we get into that, I just want to play you another clip that was going around and some
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Here is Tammy Bruce, who is the spokesperson for the State Department.
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The pride of being able to be here and do work that facilitates making things better for people
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and in the greatest country on earth, next to Israel.
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So that is the spokesperson for the United States State Department.
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Maybe she just meant that Israel and America are equally the best countries in the world.
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I think that we should believe, those of us in America and those who are representing
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America, I think we should be very comfortable and confident saying that America is the greatest
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My question is, are Christians, in particular, obligated to think that way?
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Are Christians obligated to hold the view that Ted Cruz has?
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Are Christians obligated to hold the view that Tammy Bruce has?
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Well, in order to answer these questions, we have to look into the two main Christian
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And that is the distinct view and the unified view.
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They're not really officially referred to as that, but I will explain why I'm using that
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terminology, but I actually think it's the clearest and most charitable way to describe the two
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Both of these views are held by true, genuine, gospel-believing, Bible-believing Christians.
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But the disagreement really matters and has really big implications on what you think about the end
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times, what you think about the future, and what you think about geopolitics today.
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So, the distinct view is held by a lot of evangelicals, particularly Southern Baptists.
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I grew up believing in this kind of thinking about Israel, probably without even realizing it.
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But as I've examined my views over the years, I've realized, okay, I was definitely raised with
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Other denominations and other kinds of Christians definitely can hold to this distinct view,
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but it is very popular within the Southern Baptist world, and I'll explain why.
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But this distinct view is the view that Israel and the church are two distinct entities,
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that the ethnically Jewish people are still God's chosen people, that God has a special plan for
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This group also tends to hold the belief that the modern-day geographical Israel is the Israel
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referenced in Scripture, is the nation that all nations must bless to be blessed,
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and is the centerpiece of the fulfillment of end times prophecy.
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The unified view is held by many Christians as well, many Presbyterians, many Reformed Baptists.
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I consider myself Reformed Baptists, and other Christians in other denominations.
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Now, this view is the view that the church is the fulfillment of God's Old Testament prophecies
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and promises, that there is no special reserved plan or time for ethnic Israel's salvation.
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They would reject the idea that ethnically Jewish people are in any way God's special chosen people
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God's chosen people, they would assert, are Christians, and anyone who believes in Christ
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for salvation, whether you are ethnically Jewish or whether you are Gentile, you are part
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of God's chosen people if you have been saved by grace through faith in Christ.
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Many, though not all, in this unified camp would reject the idea that the current nation of
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Israel is the Israel referenced in end times prophecy.
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In fact, many in this camp are what we call post-millennialists, so they believe that the
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prophecies about tribulation that talk about Israel in the Old Testament in particular, even
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They occurred a very long time ago, they would assert.
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Again, you can go back to the previous conversations and episodes that I've done on end times to
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Now, I have views that many would probably say fall into both of these camps in different
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And after I explain these positions more thoroughly, I will tell you what I mean by that.
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So this distinct view is held by who many call dispensationalists.
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Now, maybe a lot of you have heard this word dispensationalist, but you're like, OK, I
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That was me for a long time, even though I grew up, not really realizing it at the time,
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But this refers to how people in this camp, this distinct view camp, organized the Bible
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and organized human history into dispensations, which just means a system or an ordering.
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Biblical dispensations refer to the eras of time in which God related to man in different
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ways and still relates to man in different ways.
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A dispensation, it comes from the Greek word oikonomia, meaning stewardship or administration.
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So this is a distinct period in which God administers his plan for humanity in a specific
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So there are seven dispensations that dispensationalists say that we see throughout Scripture.
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So innocence, that's Genesis 1-1 through Genesis 3-7.
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Human government, that starts with the Noahic Covenant.
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The promise, Genesis 12-1 through Exodus 19-25.
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So the establishment of the church, grace, Acts 2-4 through Revelation 23, and the millennial
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So dispensationalists, they categorize history into these seven dispensations, and they observe
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a pattern in how God deals with man through these dispensations.
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And so dispensationalists believe that we are currently in an age of grace, that we are
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in the church age in which God is focusing on gathering people into the church.
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Dispensationalists believe that in a future age, God will focus on gathering in the Jewish
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people, specifically after believers are raptured before the tribulation.
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They believe that Christ will establish his millennial kingdom with Jerusalem as the capital
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Now, this group, I want to be as charitable and as steel man-y as possible for both camps.
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This group does not deny that salvation is by Jesus alone.
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They believe that Jews, just like everyone else, must trust in Jesus as the true Messiah,
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but they believe that Jewish people will always be distinct.
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They are and always will be God's chosen people that he will ultimately redeem through Christ.
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There are some Old Testament prophecies this group believes refers to the future salvation
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of Israel, Isaiah 59, 20, and a redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from
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They would also cite Zechariah 12, 10, and I will pour out on the house of David and the
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inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and please for mercy so that when they look
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on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only
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child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn.
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This group sees the current conflict between Israel and Iran to be a fulfillment of Old
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They look to Ezekiel 38, for example, or they might look to Jeremiah 49 and identify the
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nations referenced in those passages as modern-day Iran, Russia, Sudan, Turkey, and Libya attacking
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Now, in the New Testament, dispensationalists, or everyone in this distinct view camp, would
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cite Romans 11, 25 through 29, where God through Paul says this,
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Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers.
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A partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
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And in this way, all Israel will be saved, as it is written, the deliverer will come from
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He will banish ungodliness from Jacob, and this will be my covenant with them when I take
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As regards to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake.
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But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers, for the gifts
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Okay, so that is some of the biblical support that they would cite for their position.
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There are lots and lots of passages that they would cite for that.
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Let me give you some historical context about this position, because I think it's important.
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This is not a position that the church fathers held.
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I can't say that no church father held this position, because I don't know for sure, but
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Dispensational theology, specifically this idea that the different administrations of
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God's dealings with men can be broken down into these seven kinds of dispensations, that
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A lot of religious things happened in the 19th century.
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A man by the name of John Nelson Darby, he was an Anglo-Irish clergyman.
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He originated dispensationalism after breaking from the Church of Ireland, following his
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His vision of history, or his division of history rather, wasn't necessarily this like
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stark theological departure from every other Christian.
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What made his perspective so important is the literalism with which he interpreted scripture
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and specifically Old Testament and New Testament prophecy that led to this strict separation,
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He went on speaking tours throughout the United States in the late 19th century.
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Schofield is responsible for the Schofield Reference Bible, which was highly influential because
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of the exhaustive notes, the references that were included.
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His annotated Bible, the Schofield Reference Bible, embedded his dispensationalist belief that
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he had learned from Darby into the study notes, making this theology not only accessible for a lot
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of people, but extremely widespread, popularized.
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It was one of the first study Bibles and certainly one of the most thorough study Bibles
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And it benefited a lot of people in that it opened people's eyes to all of the different
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intellectual viewpoints that were possible within the Bible, and that there was an intellectual
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richness to Scripture, the cross references, and the Schofield Reference Bible were so thorough
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that I really do believe that it is responsible for a lot of the good, positive, intellectual
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questioning and digging into Scripture that occurred in the 20th century.
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Schofield had a disciple named Louis Sperry Schaefer, and he founded the Dallas Theological Seminary,
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which became the kind of go-to place for dispensationalist scholarship and clergy training.
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And this is where a lot of Southern Baptists have gotten their training, and so that's kind
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Now, I do just want to say, because there's a conspiracy theory, that Schofield and his
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reference Bible was funded by Israel, or funded by the Jews, or funded by the Rothschild family.
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Like, there is no evidence that we can see that I've seen—you are welcome to send it to me—there
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is no evidence that Schofield or Darby, who created dispensationalism, the separation of
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the church and Israel, or he popularized that idea—rather, there is no evidence that they
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were influenced by some kind of, like, unbiblical special affinity or affiliation with Israel and
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I think they genuinely studied the Bible and came to this conclusion, whether you agree
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Now, I will agree with the assertion that this had a big effect on how evangelicals see Israel.
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Some might say, yeah, because it is biblical, and so it was a good influence.
00:31:56.600
And some might say, well, it's unbiblical, so it was a bad influence.
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The unified view says that the church and Israel are the same.
00:33:19.720
So typically, this is held by those who subscribe to covenant theology.
00:33:25.240
This is also known as fulfillment theology, but it is pejoratively lambasted as replacement
00:33:33.480
You'll hear people say that this is very dangerous, that we should reject it because it's
00:33:39.620
That is unfair, I think, and untrue, even if you disagree with this position theologically.
00:33:48.700
So the belief is that history is organized around covenants, beginning with the covenant
00:33:55.360
God's promise to save through the last Adam, Jesus Christ, is announced as early as Genesis
00:34:04.460
This is when God is explaining his curse to Adam and Eve.
00:34:09.300
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring,
00:34:14.020
he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
00:34:21.840
They emphasize the grand and glorious unity in Scripture, how it exalts Christ as Savior,
00:34:27.580
they would say from Genesis all the way to Revelation.
00:34:29.880
Gentile believers are explicitly called, quote, fellow citizens with the saints and members
00:34:34.680
of the household of God, and Christ is identified as Abraham's ultimate offspring, making all
00:34:46.520
This is the view that was held by most church fathers.
00:34:49.580
For example, like Augustine, he viewed the church as fulfilling God's promises to Israel,
00:34:54.440
laying the groundwork for the covenantal ideas, what's known as covenantal theology, though
00:35:00.320
it wasn't systematically articulated at that point.
00:35:05.260
Puritan theologians at the Westminster Assembly codified covenant theology in the Westminster
00:35:12.140
Covenant theology, therefore, uses the covenant of works, God's dealing with Adam requiring
00:35:16.740
perfect obedience, which was broken by sin, and the covenant of grace, God's promise of
00:35:21.600
salvation through Christ's work, which is received by faith to unify God's plan, linking Israel
00:35:28.060
So there are so many parts of covenant theology that we won't be able to get to, not just when
00:35:32.800
it comes to the end times, but also when it comes to baptism.
00:35:35.980
Most people that subscribe to covenant theology also believe in infant baptism as a sign of
00:35:41.920
the new covenant, but we don't have time to get into all of that.
00:35:44.380
We have to focus on what this camp, this unified camp, many of which subscribe to covenant
00:35:55.320
So I articulated in summary what they believe, and here are the texts that they would use to
00:36:03.180
And I actually have a lot to say on this because Wayne Grudem in that book that I held up earlier,
00:36:08.440
Systematic Theology, has a lot to say on it, and I just think he explains it so well.
00:36:12.400
So Romans 9, 1 through 13, Paul grieves that many Israelites are unsaved despite their covenant
00:36:18.280
privileges, despite having the prophecies, despite having the Old Testament.
00:36:24.380
He says they have the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the law, temple worship, the
00:36:27.920
promises, but God's children are ultimately identified by God's promise, not ethnicity,
00:36:37.280
But he says in verses six through eight, it is not as though the word of God has failed
00:36:42.660
for not all who descended from Israel belong to Israel and not all are children of Abraham
00:36:50.640
But through Isaac shall your offspring be named.
00:36:53.840
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the
00:36:59.020
children of the promise who are counted as offspring.
00:37:03.980
He says in the rest of chapter nine in verses 30 through 33, what shall we say then?
00:37:12.460
That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it.
00:37:15.420
That is a righteousness that is by faith, but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead
00:37:20.560
to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.
00:37:24.420
Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works, they have stumbled
00:37:33.380
Behold, I am laying in Zion, a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.
00:37:38.240
And whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.
00:37:43.780
Let me read you some of what Wayne Grudem says about this position because he explains it really
00:37:50.820
He says, we should notice that the many New Testament verses that understand the church
00:37:59.680
We should notice that the New Testament does that.
00:38:01.720
The fact that Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, Ephesians 5.25 would
00:38:07.560
Moreover, this present church age, which has brought the salvation of many millions of Christians
00:38:12.200
in the church, is not an interruption in God's plan, but a continuation of his plan
00:38:17.440
expressed throughout the Old Testament to call a people to himself.
00:38:25.640
For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and
00:38:34.340
The real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal.
00:38:45.580
The father of all who believe without being circumcised, and likewise the father of the
00:38:51.240
circumcised who are not merely circumcised, but also follow the example of the faith which
00:38:57.140
our father Abraham had when he is referencing Abraham.
00:39:00.320
So Abraham is the father to all people of God, not through his bloodline, but because of faith.
00:39:10.140
Wayne Grudem goes on to say that those who truly believe in Christ are now the ones who
00:39:14.300
have the privilege of being called my people by the Lord.
00:39:22.020
He goes on to explain in the book of Ephesians, and Ephesians 2 specifically,
00:39:26.840
Far from thinking of the church as a separate group from the Jewish people, Paul writes to
00:39:31.260
Gentile believers at Ephesus telling them that they were formerly alienated from the
00:39:35.920
commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, but that now they have
00:39:43.280
And when the Gentiles were brought into the church, Jews and Gentiles were united into one
00:39:49.460
Paul says that God, quote, has made us both one and has broken down the dividing wall of
00:39:54.740
hostility that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace and
00:40:02.100
might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross.
00:40:11.580
He goes on to write how the Old Testament prophecies also point to this unity between the church and
00:40:20.380
Israel, all who can only be saved by faith in Jesus Christ.
00:40:27.500
So that is the covenantal view, or that is the unified view.
00:40:33.680
So they would not say that the ethnically Jewish people are God's chosen people today.
00:40:39.340
They would not necessarily say that the geographical location of Israel represents
00:40:48.620
They would point to the various passages and even more passages than the ones I just listed
00:40:53.520
to say, no, God's covenant people, his chosen people are all of those, Jew or Gentile, who
00:41:00.100
have believed in the name of the Lord, who have believed in Jesus for salvation.
00:41:07.380
Israel today is not necessarily the epicenter of the end times.
00:41:12.480
That is not what Genesis is referencing when God is saying, whoever blesses you will be
00:41:19.180
blessed, whoever curses you will be cursed, because God wasn't talking about an ethnic
00:41:24.720
He wasn't talking about a geographical location.
00:41:27.620
This position would say, the unified position would say, they were talking about God's covenant
00:41:32.460
people that he has ransomed for himself through Christ.
00:41:37.520
This covenantal view, this is from Ligonier, would say that the covenant with Abraham prefigures
00:41:47.020
Quote, salvation is given to us not because of anything we have done or could do or ever
00:41:52.000
will do, but purely on the basis of what God has done.
00:41:55.580
And we receive the benefits of what God has done simply by trusting him as Abraham did.
00:42:05.000
What do I think about modern-day Israel and how Christians should think about this conflict,
00:42:10.740
how Christians should think about the Jewish people based on everything we just read?
00:42:14.740
It probably was clear to you which position I think is more biblical.
00:42:20.460
And I'll just say, I think that the unified, the fulfillment theology, the covenant theology
00:42:26.320
view of Israel, that the church is the fulfillment of Israel, is the more biblical view.
00:42:32.100
It's the historic view, and I do believe that it is more supported by scripture.
00:42:37.260
So for those of you out there who think I'm some dispensationalist, Schofield-propagandized
00:42:45.900
I haven't been a dispensationalist for a long time.
00:42:50.820
I don't think my family even owns one of those.
00:42:54.280
But although I was probably raised with some kind of idea of dispensationalism, that's
00:43:01.640
not the view I believe scripture supports of the end times or of Israel.
00:43:08.480
However, I am also not in the camp that I see so prevalently that because Israel is not
00:43:21.460
the distinct entity that dispensationalists say that it is, that we should feel some sort
00:43:31.820
That's what I see in a lot of this unified camp, like a special hatred towards Israel and
00:43:38.760
the Jewish people that I also think is just like unhinged and doesn't make any sense.
00:43:42.520
So I'm going to give you five points of what I believe about all of this based on what
00:43:49.840
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Okay, here are my five points, and I have got sub points beneath them, as I often do.
00:45:27.860
Number one, God's chosen people are God's people through Christ and Christ alone.
00:45:33.740
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men
00:45:43.780
Number two, there may be a large-scale in-gathering of ethnic Jewish people that is yet to come.
00:45:50.040
Now, this will, I believe, come through no extraordinary means but through evangelism
00:45:57.760
I do not believe, as I've articulated on past episodes, that Christians will be caught up
00:46:03.040
in a rapture pre-tribulation and then come back down.
00:46:08.760
Yes, Christians who are pre-millennialists do believe in a rapture, but I don't believe
00:46:14.400
that we are going to be raptured before the tribulation and that that is the time that
00:46:21.820
That's just not what I see supported in Scripture.
00:46:25.060
And so there may be a large-scale in-gathering conversion of ethnic Jews one day that comes
00:46:31.100
through belief in the gospel, but I don't believe that it's on the same timeline as dispensationalists
00:46:39.740
Number three, I believe that the fulfillment of God's promises are found in Jesus and his
00:46:45.900
Again, this is the historic belief within the church.
00:46:52.360
Number four, there is no Christian theological obligation to support the nation of Israel
00:47:00.680
But I do think it makes good biblical sense to support the nation of Israel in certain ways.
00:47:13.860
A, the nation of Israel right now belonged to the Jewish people first.
00:47:21.160
They were there thousands of years before Islam came into the world.
00:47:24.780
B, it is the only homeland for a global minority, the Jewish people, who have been the victims
00:47:29.620
of relentless persecution and attempts at extermination.
00:47:32.440
C, it is the home of Christian historic sites that Israel has thus far protected and stewarded
00:47:42.580
And we should support perhaps the only other country in the world with the moral clarity
00:47:52.020
E, of the list of designated terrorist organizations, 99%, literally, are Muslim.
00:48:00.100
Mass migration of the Muslim world into the Western world has made every Western country
00:48:05.940
More violent crime, more sexual crime, more terrorism, more poverty, more chaos that is
00:48:14.920
That is not true of Jewish belief systems and of Jewish migration.
00:48:22.040
The enemy of my enemy is my friend in this case.
00:48:25.460
Israel is an enemy to Islamic extremists, and so is America.
00:48:29.900
F, Israel is a democracy that shares many of the same Western values that we have.
00:48:38.060
Just ask yourself, if all of the Middle East were like Israel, would that be better or worse?
00:48:42.740
If all of the Middle East were like Iran or Afghanistan or Gaza, would that be better or worse?
00:48:50.980
Now, this is G, theologically, we should yearn for Jewish people to be saved, just as Paul
00:49:02.220
Our Savior is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, of Jewish law, of Jewish ceremonies and celebrations.
00:49:07.960
We should have, I believe, an affinity for the Jewish people that makes us zealous for their salvation.
00:49:21.160
None of this means that we have to support intervention in their wars.
00:49:26.660
There are arguments both ways, but we are not obligated to do so.
00:49:30.540
But every government has the moral responsibility, I think the biblical obligation, to put the
00:49:37.360
well-being, the prosperity, the security of their country first.
00:49:41.280
Israel does that really well for their country.
00:49:43.620
That's one thing I love about Israel, is that it is Israel first all the way.
00:49:48.780
I want America to be as America first as Israel is Israel first.
00:49:55.620
I want every country to put its interests first, even at the expense of the interests of other
00:50:05.180
I don't think that means we have to be completely isolationist.
00:50:08.420
I think that there could be an obligation in some cases for intervention when it makes sense
00:50:14.920
for us and our allies, as long as it is in the interest of the only constituents that our
00:50:23.620
But I do believe that we are not and should not feel responsible to fight all of Israel's
00:50:40.420
Also, none of this means that we cannot criticize Israel, the government of Israel, Israel's policies.
00:50:45.820
I think a lot of people believe that we can't criticize Israel's policies without being
00:50:54.020
Israel's values are liberal in many ways, pro-LGBTQ, for example.
00:51:04.220
But it is hugely secular and has a lot of secular beliefs in place.
00:51:09.960
Like, we can't act like the geographical nation of Israel and everyone who lives there is abiding
00:51:15.900
by the Old Testament law that was put in place for the Jewish people by God.
00:51:22.560
And so it's okay to criticize the nation of Israel, the policies that are put in place.
00:51:28.660
I think it's okay to criticize, if you want to, even some of the practices that have been
00:51:35.220
put in place by Israel in this conflict between Palestine.
00:51:38.620
Now, I do think, and this is just kind of me riffing, like, I do think it's strange how many
00:51:45.300
people are pretending like October 7th didn't happen.
00:51:48.520
Like, oh, I can't believe I saw someone say, unfortunately, Israel has chosen after October
00:52:07.540
War is really ugly, and it's really bad, and we should be praying for peace and hoping
00:52:13.560
But Israel retaliated after a surprise attack when their people were raped and tortured
00:52:26.080
I mean, Hamas killed babies in captivity, and we're just acting like that's not horrifying.
00:52:34.240
I'm not saying, again, that we have to defend every mode of defense that they have put in
00:52:40.160
But let's not also forget what started this entire conflict in 2023.
00:52:46.420
And so I don't know if that gives you the clarity that you're looking for.
00:52:53.580
I will not pretend to know every single facet of geopolitics.
00:52:59.080
I will not pretend to understand every single nook and cranny of the conflict that is going
00:53:04.080
on, or every aspect of American politics, or every aspect of how our government decides
00:53:11.640
our priorities and our interests, or even every aspect of the theological debate in this.
00:53:18.420
But I've been thinking about this and reading about this for a long time and praying about
00:53:23.840
this as well, because I want to be wise in how I think about it and how I talk about it.
00:53:29.100
And I hope that I have given you some clarity, or maybe at least just a jumping off point for
00:53:34.520
you to read your Bible, read Romans 9, read Hebrews 11, get Wayne Grudem's Systematic
00:53:46.480
I'm not going to recommend one or the other because either they're dispensationalist or covenant,
00:53:50.500
and I really want you to explore scripture for yourself, get you an ESV study Bible.
00:53:55.660
I would say it's pretty neutral and objective, and you can read the commentary to help you
00:54:00.280
gain understanding without feeling like you are being persuaded in one direction.
00:54:17.120
As long as we are all believing in the inerrant authority of the Word of God, I love these
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I'm sure that I sufficiently made plenty of people mad in this, which was not my goal.
00:54:30.360
It was just to try to explain as best as I could the nuance in all of this.
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So we have been doing Relatable since March of 2018.
00:55:41.120
I can't believe that it's been over seven years.
00:55:43.700
It has been what I call like my professional baby.
00:55:51.820
I have share the arrows, which I love so much, but so much work and thought and heart and effort
00:56:01.560
has been put into Relatable, not just by me, but by my team.
00:56:07.280
By Timothy, there has been so much prayer and consideration that has gone into every episode,
00:56:13.180
and I certainly haven't always gotten it right in everything that I've said,
00:56:18.260
but I am a Christian, a wife, a mom navigating the craziness of our culture
00:56:25.820
with as much clarity and courage as God is willing to give me,
00:56:32.080
and I have tried my best to take you guys along on that ride.
00:56:36.920
And when we started, it was one time a week, and then there was a demand for it.
00:56:43.420
There was a demand for more, so we went to three times a week.
00:56:46.200
And there was a demand for more, we went to four times a week.
00:56:48.680
And y'all, the three to four times a week was really tough for me.
00:56:53.860
I felt that three times a week was really the good clip for my show.
00:56:59.300
And when I went to four times a week, I was like, I just don't know how long I can sustain this.
00:57:05.300
And every few months, I've reassessed, do I want to continue doing four times a week?
00:57:10.220
And there have been periods, a lot of periods in the past few years,
00:57:16.880
It's been like hour and a half long episodes every day for four times a week
00:57:24.060
because of everything that was going on in the news, whether it was in 2020,
00:57:30.640
or whether it was in the 2024 election year or midterms or whatever.
00:57:35.000
Or people always ask me, do you ever run out of things to talk about?
00:57:38.820
And I'm like, no, I feel like I could go, you know, like five, six, seven episodes a week
00:57:48.440
But this time, when I started reassessing again and talking to Chief Related Bro
00:57:52.520
about the season of life that we're in, believe it or not, I have an oldest child
00:57:58.080
who is about to start kindergarten who is six years old, which is just like insane to me.
00:58:03.000
A lot of you remember my first maternity leave episodes when I first announced I was pregnant
00:58:08.500
with my oldest and now she's about to go into kindergarten.
00:58:12.200
And it seems that now is the time for me to scale back a little bit on Relatable.
00:58:19.340
And so we are going to move to three times a week starting next week.
00:58:22.880
Next week will actually only be two episodes because it'll be 4th of July next Friday, next Friday.
00:58:29.520
And so we won't have an episode, but it will be Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.
00:58:39.380
And we are going to try to follow the same formula every week.
00:58:50.280
Wednesday, theology, and then Friday will be our guest episodes.
00:58:54.240
And we've already been planning what these are going to look like, the topics that we're
00:58:58.140
going to cover, and the amazing guests that we are going to have.
00:59:03.600
But I actually think that this will allow us to be even more intentional with planning each
00:59:09.500
episode and will also allow us to be even more topical.
00:59:13.540
I already don't feel like I'm bound to the 24-hour news cycle.
00:59:17.680
But having one less episode a week, I think, will make it feel even more like that.
00:59:23.940
That, okay, if I just want to cover theology today, it doesn't matter what's going on in
00:59:30.560
This is the topic that we've written for, researched for, and this is what we are going
00:59:35.140
And honestly, going back to the beginning of Relatable, those are the episodes that y'all
00:59:42.280
Sometimes y'all really want me to break down something that's happening in the news right
00:59:46.280
now, but most of the time, y'all want me to break down a trend that you're seeing, explain
00:59:50.880
the topic, explain some kind of theological subject, have a debate, or talk in depth with
00:59:57.480
someone about their faith whom you've never heard share their testimony before.
01:00:01.480
And so that's really what we are going to focus on going forward.
01:00:05.980
Now, there may be a season in the future where we go back to four episodes, depending on what's
01:00:12.020
going on, and we'll just kind of depend on our schedule.
01:00:17.180
But this is what's right for our family, first and foremost, in this new season of life, this
01:00:24.760
new era where I don't really know exactly what it's going to look like to have kids in school.
01:00:30.840
You think it's going to give you more time, but it doesn't.
01:00:35.100
You just really want to be so focused on their education and ensuring they're fully taken
01:00:43.180
I'm so thankful for the flexibility of this job, the freedom of this job.
01:00:46.980
I already get to be home so much and spend so much time with my family.
01:00:51.360
CR and I work together full time, so we always travel with our family.
01:00:55.520
But this is going to give us even more of that in this next season of life, and I'm very
01:01:03.100
Y'all have been with me through so many seasons, through so many parts of this journey, and
01:01:07.960
I'm grateful to God that I get to have this relationship with an incredible audience and
01:01:14.680
that at least for right now, I get this platform to talk about things that really, really matter.
01:01:21.360
And I will continue to do so as long as he calls me to it and as long as it is what is