Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1213 ｜ Infant Baptism vs. Believers' Baptism： What’s Biblical？

00:00:01.000 Infant baptism versus believer's baptism, the age-old debate.

00:00:06.060 We are having it today on today's episode of Relatable.

00:00:10.500 It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

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00:00:26.540 Hey, y'all.

00:00:27.360 Welcome to Relatable.

00:00:28.280 Happy Wednesday.

00:00:30.020 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.

00:00:32.480 I had to remind myself what day it is because typically the second episode that is out in

00:00:37.480 a week comes out on Tuesday, but with our new schedule with Relatable coming out on Monday,

00:00:43.440 Wednesdays, and Fridays now, it is indeed Wednesday.

00:00:47.880 And as promised, we are following our format.

00:00:50.940 Even with so much going on on the news on Wednesday, we are going to do a theological topic.

00:00:57.240 Now, sometimes it might be something that's going on in the news that fits into a broader

00:01:03.600 theological theme that we can dissect, but today we are not talking about anything news

00:01:08.980 related.

00:01:09.700 We are talking about baptism.

00:01:12.440 If you go back to some episodes that I did in 2019, those were strictly topical when I was

00:01:18.820 in my first maternity leave.

00:01:20.520 I think there were like nine weeks of episodes we had pre-recorded to come out after I had my

00:01:26.980 first child six years ago, and we covered a lot of political and theological topics.

00:01:34.640 But one topic that I don't believe we have ever covered in depth is baptism.

00:01:41.000 That's paedo-baptism, infant baptism, versus credo-baptism, which is not necessarily adult

00:01:48.620 baptism, but believer's baptism.

00:01:51.520 So today we are going to get into those two perspectives.

00:01:55.560 As always, I am going to try my very best to steel man both arguments.

00:02:02.540 That is the opposite of a straw man.

00:02:05.260 A straw man is a logical fallacy where you build up your opponent's argument in a fictitious

00:02:12.220 way.

00:02:12.800 So you try to articulate something that they're not actually arguing, that they're not actually

00:02:18.400 saying.

00:02:18.680 You see this so much on social media.

00:02:20.520 I could say being barefoot on planes is gross.

00:02:25.200 And a straw man would be, so you're saying that being barefoot in your own home is disgusting

00:02:34.000 and you think that I am a gross pig?

00:02:37.140 That's a straw man.

00:02:38.460 That might be true.

00:02:39.820 But I am not arguing that.

00:02:42.140 I am arguing just that being barefoot on airplanes is gross.

00:02:46.720 I'm not also arguing that you should never fly or that you should never take your shoes

00:02:51.860 off in any context.

00:02:53.780 And that is so much of social media.

00:02:56.880 But if you are steel manning someone's argument, which is really the only way to be honest and

00:03:03.420 therefore persuasive, you are trying to actually articulate what they believe in the most charitable

00:03:10.920 way possible.

00:03:12.920 You are trying to truly understand, if it's there, the logic behind what someone believes.

00:03:20.100 That is way more conducive to productive conversations and, again, is actually a lot more effective

00:03:26.860 if you are trying to persuade someone.

00:03:30.280 Now, sometimes someone's argument is completely illogical.

00:03:33.440 Sometimes it really is stupid.

00:03:35.800 And sometimes they do have ulterior motives and malicious intent behind what they're saying.

00:03:41.680 If you're pointing that out, that's not always fallacious.

00:03:45.160 But if you are doing that dishonestly without trying to articulate what they actually believe

00:03:51.340 and the coherence, if any, behind what they're saying, then that is indeed fallacious.

00:03:57.700 So, that said, I am a credo-baptist.

00:04:01.880 That means I am a believer in believer's baptism.

00:04:06.460 That baptism is an outward sign of inward regeneration.

00:04:12.180 And I believe that this is the best and most biblical way to follow the example of Christ

00:04:18.260 and the believers and their response to repentance that we see throughout Scripture.

00:04:25.980 So, I will not hide that.

00:04:28.000 At the end, I will articulate why I have the position that I do.

00:04:33.660 But I am going to do my very best at articulating why the infant baptism camp,

00:04:40.600 both in the Catholic world and in the Protestant world, believe the things they do,

00:04:45.980 why they have the position that they have.

00:04:49.380 And for those of you who, like me, you grew up maybe Southern Baptist or in a non-denominational church,

00:04:56.380 all you know is believer's baptism,

00:04:58.440 and you've never really given much thought to why there are Christians that we truly consider

00:05:04.080 brothers and sisters in Christ, why they believe in the sprinkling,

00:05:07.880 why do they believe in infant baptism.

00:05:10.440 And I think it's important to know for us to have discussions and to see why this really matters.

00:05:15.640 And of course, the Bible, truth, always really matters.

00:05:19.940 And so, us knowing, understanding everything that is going on in these theological camps

00:05:25.360 is super important.

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00:07:23.620 All right, y'all.

00:07:24.440 So let's get into it.

00:07:25.880 So the word baptism comes from the Greek word that is used in the New Testament, baptizo,

00:07:32.720 which literally means to dip or to immerse.

00:07:35.360 There really is no controversy surrounding that.

00:07:39.160 The controversy is around the interpretation of what that actually means for believers today.

00:07:44.420 Baptism, all denominations, all forms of Christian believe that it is a form of identification as a Christian,

00:07:53.620 that it is a public profession of our faith and identification with Christ.

00:08:00.380 There are several verses that refer to baptism in the New Testament.

00:08:04.420 We've got Romans 6, 3 through 4.

00:08:06.500 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

00:08:13.900 We were buried, therefore, with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,

00:08:22.020 we too might walk in newness of life.

00:08:25.420 And actually, at my church and at most Baptist churches, I believe that is what is said when a believer is baptized,

00:08:34.240 buried with Christ in his death and raised to walk in the newness of life.

00:08:40.380 All denominations agree that baptism is an act of obedience to Jesus's instructions.

00:08:47.620 Matthew 28, 19,

00:08:49.320 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

00:08:58.060 Acts 2, 38 through 41,

00:09:00.120 And Peter said to them,

00:09:01.280 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, 0.85

00:09:06.520 everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.

00:09:10.400 And with many other words, he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying,

00:09:14.400 Save yourselves from this crooked generation. 1.00

00:09:16.420 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about 3,000 souls.

00:09:23.580 1 Peter 3, 21,

00:09:25.100 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body,

00:09:30.660 but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

00:09:36.620 So different parts of Christianity interpret these verses differently to support their view of either believer's baptism,

00:09:43.920 either as a child or as an adult or infant baptism.

00:09:49.320 There are three different modes of baptism.

00:09:52.180 There is sprinkling a few drops on someone's head.

00:09:56.040 This is practiced by Methodists, by Roman Catholics, by Presbyterians, by Lutherans.

00:10:02.200 There is pouring, also called effusion, pouring of water over someone's head.

00:10:06.860 It's practiced by Mennonites, by the Amish.

00:10:10.500 And then there's immersion.

00:10:12.340 And this is primarily used by Baptists and by non-denominational churches that are basically functionally Baptist,

00:10:21.560 even if they are not officially part of the Southern Baptist Convention,

00:10:25.760 which is the largest denomination in the United States.

00:10:28.820 So the question is, when should we be baptized?

00:10:32.660 And the question is, how should we be baptized?

00:10:35.660 When and how should we be baptized?

00:10:37.960 But there's also a debate about what this baptism actually means.

00:10:42.260 So first, we're going to look at the paedo-baptist side. 0.99

00:10:46.740 Paedo-baptism, this comes from the Greek word paes, or child.

00:10:51.740 It's also known as infant baptism.

00:10:54.340 That's probably what you've heard it referred to as in layman's terms.

00:10:58.400 It is the Christian practice of baptizing infants or young children, typically infants.

00:11:05.380 This is those who are born to believing parents.

00:11:09.720 This is within Protestantism, at least, as a means of incorporating them into the faith and the church community.

00:11:17.940 It is also, however, practiced by non-Protestants, by Roman Catholic Church,

00:11:24.080 by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Churches.

00:11:28.400 But there is a difference in what these people believe infant baptism actually means.

00:11:37.280 The Presbyterian Church in America, for example, practices infant baptism.

00:11:42.620 They don't teach that this baptism actually saves the child,

00:11:46.400 but they teach that infant baptism is actually a covenant sign.

00:11:50.980 It's not salvific, but it is the same as Old Testament circumcision. 0.94

00:11:56.720 It's a covenantal sign that shows welcoming this child into the Christian family.

00:12:03.580 And, of course, they still believe that a true profession of faith needs to be made at some point in that child's life,

00:12:11.860 in that person's life, for them to actually be saved and go to heaven.

00:12:16.540 This is a difference between covenantal theology, which we talked about a little bit last week on Thursday,

00:12:22.960 and sacramental theology, which is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

00:12:27.500 And we'll get into more of those details in a second.

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00:13:58.840 So there are many prominent church fathers,

00:14:03.060 many prominent people in church history who were Paedo-Baptists, 0.84

00:14:07.240 Augustine of Hippo, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Wesley.

00:14:11.980 I mean, many of the people that Baptists hold in high regard for their theology

00:14:17.700 were actually proponents of infant baptism.

00:14:21.260 Of course, R.C. Sproul, he's a Reformed theologian, the founder of Ligonier Ministries.

00:14:26.760 You've got N.T. Wright, Timothy Keller.

00:14:29.260 You've got all of the Catholic teachers and popes.

00:14:33.180 And so let's break down the difference between the Paedo-Baptist Protestant view,

00:14:38.280 what Presbyterians and other denominations believe,

00:14:42.160 and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches when it comes to infant baptism.

00:14:47.660 So this is according to Ligonier.

00:14:49.480 That is the ministry that was started by the Presbyterian Reformed theologian, R.C. Sproul.

00:14:54.840 They say that the New Testament nowhere commands us to baptize infants,

00:14:58.620 but neither does it anywhere.

00:15:01.460 Forbid it.

00:15:02.200 Okay, a circumcision and baptism are linked in Colossians 2.11-12, for example.

00:15:09.920 And so baptism, like circumcision, need not be tied to the moment of profession.

00:15:15.760 Again, this is from Ligonier.

00:15:17.940 Colossians 2.11-12 says this,

00:15:20.160 So Presbyterians, those who are on the infant baptism site in the Protestant world would say,

00:15:43.200 okay, this is a symbol of God's covenant to his people that is similar to or a parallel to

00:15:53.940 the outward sign of God's covenant to his people in the Old Testament, which was circumcision.

00:16:00.800 So this camp would argue that Old Covenant promises were given to adults and their children,

00:16:06.420 and this was depicted through circumcision.

00:16:08.880 It's hard to imagine.

00:16:11.040 Ligonier says that the greater new covenant promises and signs should not also be given

00:16:16.160 to the infant children of believing adults.

00:16:20.260 The Old Testament taught that those entire households were circumcised, obviously not the females,

00:16:27.220 as were entire households baptized in the New Testament.

00:16:31.580 And so they'd go to the Old Testament, Genesis 17.11-13, for example,

00:16:36.160 and they would look at the Abrahamic covenant.

00:16:39.300 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins. 1.00

00:16:41.760 It shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you, God says to Abraham.

00:16:47.020 Then they would look at the New Testament.

00:16:48.920 Passages like Acts 16.15 say that Lydia's household was baptized.

00:16:55.040 Acts 16.33, the Philippian jailer's household.

00:16:58.620 1 Corinthians 1.16, Stephanus' household.

00:17:01.860 So Pado-Baptists argue that these texts imply baptism was not restricted to believers.

00:17:08.520 They would say that one person believed, and therefore their household could be baptized,

00:17:13.920 again, as a sign of the covenant that at least one person in the household had accepted through

00:17:19.940 the grace of Jesus Christ.

00:17:22.440 Paul says, this camp argues, that the children of a Christian parent are set apart to God.

00:17:30.220 And so 1 Corinthians 7.14, for example,

00:17:34.440 for the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, 0.87

00:17:37.620 and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. 0.62

00:17:40.200 Otherwise, your children would be unclean.

00:17:42.100 But as it is, they are holy.

00:17:46.200 They would also say that like circumcision, baptism without personal faith has no effect.

00:17:51.680 However, it does identify the child as part of the visible church community and holds them

00:17:59.140 to a higher standard of judgment if they never come to trust in God.

00:18:04.740 And where they support this claim is Luke 12.48.

00:18:08.540 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating.

00:18:13.700 Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required.

00:18:17.420 And from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

00:18:20.820 This is Jesus speaking in a parable.

00:18:23.400 But they use the principle that he is articulating there to say,

00:18:27.100 okay, a lot is going to be expected and required of this child who was baptized

00:18:31.480 into the faith as an infant.

00:18:35.920 This is from the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary,

00:18:39.520 who gives us a detailed historical analysis of this position.

00:18:47.120 If you look back to why Augustine, for example, believed in infant baptism,

00:18:54.180 he didn't believe that it was just a New Testament covenant sign of a child being welcomed into the

00:19:00.440 church, but he truly believed, as Catholics do, that it was cleansing of original sin. 0.99

00:19:06.700 Not that the infant had done anything wrong.

00:19:09.900 They hadn't knowingly sinned yet because they don't have the capacity to do that.

00:19:14.100 But that even newborns carry the weight of original sin, which, by the way,

00:19:18.480 Reformed people, Baptists also believe that everyone has inherited original sin from Adam.

00:19:24.660 But Augustine believed that this baptism in infancy actually cleansed them of any responsibility,

00:19:32.360 of any guilt that was inherited because of original sin.

00:19:37.800 It would actually just wipe it out.

00:19:40.500 By the 3rd century, baptizing babies became more common, partly because so many infants died young then,

00:19:47.700 and so they saw it.

00:19:49.220 Many Christians then saw it as protection from hell or damnation.

00:19:53.760 Parents and church leaders wanted to make sure that babies were, quote-unquote,

00:19:57.040 safe spiritually, and this article says that due to the dual pressures of infant mortality

00:20:05.580 and evolving views of the sinfulness of newborn infants, the novel practice of baptizing infants

00:20:10.760 became widespread by the 3rd century.

00:20:13.100 This practice was not accepted as universal, even in the 4th century, as infants' need for forgiveness

00:20:17.800 continued to be questioned.

00:20:20.820 Okay, and then we've got the Catholic view, which we kind of already touched on a little bit

00:20:25.900 with what Augustine believes, but we'll get into that in more detail in just a second.

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00:23:12.600 So in Catholic teaching, baptism is seen as a sacrament that conveys grace.

00:23:24.440 It spiritually renews a person and serves as the primary way to enter the Christian faith.

00:23:30.340 It is the first of seven sacraments.

00:23:32.120 So it is believed, like Augustine believed, to wash away original sin, unite the person

00:23:39.480 with the Roman Catholic Church.

00:23:42.180 They also believe there is a regenerative effect, a salvific effect there of infant baptism.

00:23:49.100 So this is from a Vatican doctrinal document that was released in 1980.

00:23:54.780 This is according to the Vatican.

00:23:56.660 The Catholic Church teaches that, quote,

00:23:58.520 Baptism is necessary for salvation.

00:24:13.460 Baptism is never administered without faith.

00:24:16.360 However, the Catholic Church would say, in the case of infants, it is the faith of the

00:24:21.000 church, so not necessarily their individual faith.

00:24:23.900 Furthermore, in accordance with the teaching of the Council of Trent on the sacraments, baptism

00:24:27.700 is not just a sign of faith, but a cause of faith.

00:24:32.840 So they really see that baptism as necessary for salvation.

00:24:38.620 And they would point to a variety of verses.

00:24:41.280 They would look to John 3, 5.

00:24:43.680 They would look to Titus 3, 5.

00:24:46.500 They would look to Mark 16, 16.

00:24:49.520 Acts 22, 16 says,

00:24:54.140 We've already read Acts 2, 38 through 41, where Peter says the promise is for you and

00:25:07.020 your children and all who are far off.

00:25:09.780 We've got 1 Peter 3, 21 that says, again, that baptism saves you.

00:25:16.500 And they would also point to the verses that we've already read about baptism occurring in

00:25:23.140 entire households when just one person was saved.

00:25:28.020 So same basic act between those who are Pado-Baptists in the Protestant world and in the Catholic world, 1.00

00:25:35.280 but there is a different meaning behind them based on covenantal theology, which Protestants

00:25:41.200 believe, those Pado-Protestants believe, Pado-Baptists believe, and then the sacramental 0.99

00:25:47.700 theology that the Catholics believe, where baptism is truly salvific, versus the covenantal

00:25:56.220 theology belief that baptism is a sign.

00:26:00.200 A little bit more than just an outward sign, because it is an inward covenant, but again,

00:26:06.040 they don't believe that it's actually salvific.

00:26:08.100 Okay, so what does my camp believe?

00:26:10.560 What does a Credo-Baptist believe? 1.00

00:26:13.940 Credo-Baptist, that word credo comes from the Latin word for creed or belief.

00:26:19.900 Credo means I believe.

00:26:21.780 So we believe, this is according to Desiring God, this is John Piper's ministry, he is a

00:26:26.640 Credo-Baptist.

00:26:27.560 Baptism is an appeal to God and a symbol of the decisive act of the Holy Spirit.

00:26:33.260 The Holy Spirit is who washes us, regenerates us, renews us in his application of Christ's

00:26:39.200 work in our lives.

00:26:40.500 Christian baptism is the way someone publicly declares their faith and commitment to following

00:26:45.820 Jesus.

00:26:47.180 From Believer's Baptism and the Petristic Writings, this is by Stephen A. McKinnon.

00:26:52.280 Believer's Baptism is the practice of baptizing only those who profess faith in Jesus Christ 0.98

00:26:58.400 for their salvation, having repented of their sin.

00:27:01.720 So repented means to turn away from.

00:27:04.140 So we have said, I don't want to live that life anymore.

00:27:06.560 I have accepted by faith in Christ according to the grace that was given to me that Jesus

00:27:14.100 Christ is who he says he is, that he died for my sins, that I have forgiveness and reconciliation

00:27:20.180 to God through Christ.

00:27:22.520 And because of that grace that is in me, because of the faith that I now have, I want to walk

00:27:29.560 in accordance with his word.

00:27:30.920 I want to turn away from my old self and my old ways, and I want to walk in the example

00:27:38.740 of Jesus.

00:27:40.160 That would be a long-winded way to define what repentance is.

00:27:43.420 An essential element of the practice is that baptism is subsequent to repentance and faith.

00:27:50.500 That is the distinctive of what credo-baptists believe.

00:27:53.500 While both Baptists and pedo-baptists may agree that the function of the ordinance is to outwardly

00:27:58.880 profess faith, Baptists deny that the action professes future faith.

00:28:03.980 And we certainly deny that it is salvific in any way, that it has the power to wash away

00:28:09.520 original sin, or that it is necessary or even right to baptize infants.

00:28:16.320 We would certainly not affirm that.

00:28:19.460 Baptists, churches of Christ, Pentecostals, non-denominational churches reject infant baptism,

00:28:27.380 arguing that personal belief must come before baptism.

00:28:32.820 Several Baptists throughout history, however, definitely later than most of the church fathers,

00:28:40.540 although that's not to say that credo-baptism wasn't believed by the earliest Christians,

00:28:45.420 because again, we see that the earliest Christians, including Jesus himself, were submerged,

00:28:51.440 which we'll get into in just a second.

00:28:53.240 The prominent contemporary supporters of believers' baptism, John Piper, Al Mohler,

00:28:59.320 John MacArthur, many others, if we look at some of the earliest writings that were against

00:29:07.420 infant baptism, we do have a church father, Tertullian, for example, and he wrote a book

00:29:13.100 on baptism called The Baptismo in the First Decade of the Third Century.

00:29:18.820 He writes,

00:29:19.680 Let children come then when they grow up.

00:29:22.040 Let them become Christians when they are able to know Christ.

00:29:25.800 And in that work that seems to be the earliest work that we see besides the Bible itself,

00:29:30.240 I would argue that is against infant baptism.

00:29:34.060 Dallas Baptist University religion professor Mark Nickens explains the history of believers' baptism.

00:29:40.200 He says that many reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin broke from the Catholic Church,

00:29:47.400 creating new Christian groups with diverse beliefs about what it means to be Christian.

00:29:50.700 He's just explaining very briefly the Reformation there.

00:29:55.960 On January 21st, 1525, there were a variety of priests who acted on their beliefs about baptism

00:30:05.120 that differed from the Catholic Church, with one of the reformers baptizing another,

00:30:11.020 pouring water, marking the start of the Anabaptist movement.

00:30:14.420 The Anabaptist movement rejected infant baptism for believers' baptism.

00:30:20.560 The word Anabaptist means re-baptize, or it was originally used as kind of like a pejorative

00:30:25.400 by their opponents, because Anabaptists believed in adult baptism,

00:30:29.760 rejected the validity of infant baptism.

00:30:31.780 And during that time, a lot of them had already been baptized into the Catholic Church,

00:30:36.320 but they were being baptized in a different way as adults.

00:30:40.300 And many Baptists throughout history have been persecuted,

00:30:43.280 especially in those early years of the Protestant Reformation,

00:30:46.940 because of what they believed about baptism.

00:30:49.300 Of course, being called heretics, people being excommunicated

00:30:53.080 from the Catholic Church for questioning baptism.

00:30:58.440 And so this was a very hot topic back in the day, and still actually is in some ways.

00:31:05.460 And so here are the verses that we use, the analysis that we use to come up with our belief

00:31:11.580 that baptism really is just for believers.

00:31:15.620 We look at Acts 2.38 through 41, which is actually a verse that we have already read a couple times

00:31:21.800 to try to support pedo-baptism.

00:31:23.940 So yes, this verse does say for you and your children.

00:31:50.260 However, it's very clear there that those who received his word were baptized.

00:31:56.740 There is no implication whatsoever that those who did not receive his word,

00:32:00.620 that those who did not believe were also baptized.

00:32:03.740 Whenever we see in any verse that their household was baptized,

00:32:08.180 it takes a lot of assumption to come to the conclusion that non-believing children or infants were baptized.

00:32:15.940 We don't see that explicitly anywhere throughout Scripture.

00:32:18.740 We do not see that example.

00:32:20.600 And actually, again, Ligonier Ministries, which is Presbyterian and Reformed,

00:32:25.300 believes in infant baptism.

00:32:27.080 They say that outright, that the Bible never commands infant baptism.

00:32:30.900 But I would go further than that.

00:32:32.600 It's not that it never commands infant baptism.

00:32:34.960 We don't see that anywhere.

00:32:36.800 We don't even see an implication of baptizing infants anywhere.

00:32:42.140 And in fact, as we'll get into in a second, the idea of sprinkling baptism is really an oxymoron.

00:32:50.580 That's not what baptism means in the Greek.

00:32:53.900 It actually means to immerse.

00:32:56.500 And so it seems to me that the writers of the New Testament who were watching the earliest Christians 0.61

00:33:02.040 understood that they weren't talking about a sprinkling,

00:33:04.820 that that's not what Jesus commanded us to do.

00:33:08.620 That's not what Jesus actually partook in when he was baptized.

00:33:12.540 But this was actually an immersion and a dunking.

00:33:18.020 We look at Romans 6, 3 through 4.

00:33:20.580 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into

00:33:25.800 his death?

00:33:26.340 We were buried, therefore, with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was

00:33:31.340 raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life.

00:33:36.800 So that is what baptism is supposed to signify.

00:33:39.960 Just like Jesus rose from the dead, came out of the tomb, so Christians are rising out of the 1.00

00:33:47.740 water, into newness of life.

00:33:50.140 Romans 6 makes it very clear what we are supposed to signify when we are being baptized.

00:33:58.300 Colossians 2, 11 through 12.

00:33:59.980 In him you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of 0.97

00:34:04.960 flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism.

00:34:09.960 So the baptism is supposed to be like a burial.

00:34:13.800 This is identification with Christ, his death, his resurrection, our identification with Christ

00:34:21.460 comes through baptism.

00:34:24.300 Baptists reject this idea that physical baptism actually saves you.

00:34:30.220 So this first, 1 Peter 3, 21, baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a

00:34:36.000 removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection

00:34:41.720 of Jesus Christ.

00:34:43.880 And so he actually makes clear there, Peter is making clear that we're not talking about

00:34:48.840 physical baptism having salvation power.

00:34:52.280 We are talking about the baptism that is internal, that can only come through the regeneration of

00:35:00.340 the Holy Spirit.

00:35:01.420 We are talking about the heart change by grace through faith that Jesus accomplishes in your

00:35:06.840 life that is salvation.

00:35:09.580 Titus 3, 5, God saved us not because of works done by us in righteousness, that would include

00:35:15.360 baptism by the way, but according to his own mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewal

00:35:21.500 of the Holy Spirit.

00:35:23.020 So the renewal and the regeneration and the change comes through the Holy Spirit, not the physical

00:35:29.920 act of being baptized, which again is an external signifier of an inward reality, an external signifier

00:35:37.420 not only of identity with Christ, but identification of Christ's burial and his resurrection.

00:35:45.500 Okay, we've got a few more points on that, specifically about Jesus and his example that he set for us.

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00:37:08.680 Okay, I think the clearest argument for believer's baptism is in the example of Jesus.

00:37:21.800 And it's interesting because Catholics will say, for example, and we'll do an episode on this,

00:37:27.280 the real presence of the Eucharist, whether this is a symbol of Jesus's body and blood,

00:37:33.580 or whether it is the real presence of Christ in the bread and the wine, they will say this

00:37:39.740 is literal.

00:37:40.880 This is not symbolic.

00:37:42.320 Jesus is not speaking in metaphors, even though Jesus spoke in symbolism and metaphors a lot

00:37:47.740 in his ministry, but they will say, no, this was literal.

00:37:51.520 But I do think it's interesting that for some reason, when it comes to baptism and what we

00:37:57.260 clearly see happening here, that was not supposed to be an example for believers, at least

00:38:03.380 according to Roman Catholic teaching and according to some Protestant teaching.

00:38:07.680 So we see in Matthew 3, 16, and when Jesus was baptized, baptizo, again, that word means

00:38:14.440 immersed, immediately he went up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened to him

00:38:18.920 and he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest upon him.

00:38:22.760 Mark 1, 10.

00:38:23.920 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the spirit

00:38:28.440 descending upon him like a dove.

00:38:31.800 Okay, so here's what a Presbyterian, Pado-Baptist scholar would say.

00:38:35.640 His name is Albert Barnes.

00:38:36.980 He wrote commentary on the book of Matthew.

00:38:40.460 And so he said, it, he came out of the water, literally means he, Jesus, went up directly

00:38:46.160 from the water.

00:38:47.940 This is what he argues.

00:38:49.000 The original does not imply that they had descended into the river.

00:38:52.560 It cannot be proved.

00:38:54.020 Therefore, from this passage, that his baptism was by immersion.

00:38:59.180 And so that view is that actually Jesus wasn't actually immersed.

00:39:02.860 I don't know if it's that he was sprinkled or like what the argument is there, but I

00:39:07.940 think it is kind of like another argument from absence.

00:39:11.240 While we don't see for absolute sure that he was immersed, and so we can't say this is

00:39:15.260 the example that he set for believers.

00:39:17.040 The Catholic view on Mark 1, 9 through 10, this is according to Catholic Answers, Mark

00:39:23.160 1, 9 through 10 doesn't say, Catholic Answers says, that Christ was baptized by immersion,

00:39:27.880 only that after his baptism, Jesus came up out of the water.

00:39:30.720 The phrase could refer to immersion, but it needn't.

00:39:33.780 Jesus could have stepped into the shallows and had John the Baptist pour water on his head.

00:39:37.320 Even if Jesus had been baptized by immersion, this wouldn't present a problem for Catholics.

00:39:41.600 We accept baptism by immersion as a valid mode of receiving the sacrament.

00:39:46.440 Okay, so I just do want to make that clear because I don't think I've specified that

00:39:50.060 yet, that I don't think Catholics would condemn baptism by immersion.

00:39:55.220 But again, this would be in accordance with sacramental theology, that this is a washing

00:40:00.820 away of original sin, which we Protestants do not hold to.

00:40:06.260 So here is an article in The Christian Courier by someone named Wayne Jackson.

00:40:11.120 I thought he explained the credo-baptist position well.

00:40:14.800 While he is refuting the Presbyterian scholar, Albert Barnes, that we cited just a minute ago.

00:40:22.440 He says, those who practice ritualistic sprinkling as a substitute for water immersion commonly

00:40:27.080 allege that baptism from the very commencement of the Christian age was implemented either

00:40:31.520 by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling.

00:40:33.760 They claim that ancient literary sources and even a few scriptural references support this

00:40:38.220 diversity.

00:40:38.800 He says, it must be noted that the expression baptismal sprinkling is a contradiction.

00:40:44.040 That's what I was just saying.

00:40:45.260 The Greek term baptismo means to dip, submerge, and immerse.

00:40:48.940 The Greek historian Polybius used the word to describe a sinking ship.

00:40:53.620 In the Greek version of the Old Testament, the cognate form bapto clearly is distinguished

00:40:58.840 from the term sprinkle, which is rantizo, and por, kio.

00:41:03.020 See Leviticus 14.

00:41:04.060 To speak of baptismal sprinkling would constitute a contradiction of terms.

00:41:08.580 The verbs represent entirely different actions.

00:41:11.720 Second, there is not a solitary passage in the New Testament, Wayne Jackson says, that

00:41:16.060 lends any support to the idea that the act called baptism by the New Testament writers

00:41:20.240 was administered by the sprinkling or pouring of water upon a person's head.

00:41:24.920 Albert Barnes, the Presbyterian scholar that we cited earlier, puts a lot of emphasis on

00:41:30.700 that word from, trying to argue that it doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus was immersed.

00:41:36.660 But Wayne Jackson points out the argument is based upon the fact that the term from is

00:41:41.740 the Greek word apo, which generally means away from.

00:41:45.560 But, Jackson says, apo can also be used in the sense of out of, as in the case of Luke

00:41:50.800 24, 47.

00:41:52.440 The Pharisees wanted Jesus to show them a sign from apo, heaven.

00:41:56.980 However, in the parallel passages, in both Mark and Luke's accounts, the preposition used

00:42:01.460 is ek, instead of out, instead of apo.

00:42:05.300 So, those words, when used interchangeably, we see that ek literally means coming up out

00:42:12.540 of.

00:42:13.500 So, he argues that the most likely and logical interpretation of that verse is that apo actually

00:42:22.220 means coming out of, since it is also sometimes interchangeably used with ek, which always

00:42:29.060 means coming out of.

00:42:31.980 Mark also wrote that Jesus was baptized of John in the Jordan.

00:42:36.360 The preposition rendered in, in our common versions, is ais, which means in to.

00:42:43.740 Finally, the theological connection between baptism and the burial and resurrection of Christ,

00:42:48.920 Romans 6, 3-4, which we've read a couple times now, Colossians 2, 12, negates the notion that

00:42:54.880 the rite may be performed by sprinkling or pouring.

00:42:58.020 The prospective Christian is buried in the water of baptism with Christ, just as Jesus 1.00

00:43:03.200 was raised out of the tomb, so we also are raised from the liquid grave of baptism.

00:43:10.180 And I think that is exactly right, that that symbol, that that signifier really matters.

00:43:15.980 Now, Founders Ministry, it's a ministry that we have referred to several times.

00:43:21.400 In fact, if you are looking for a Bible-preaching church, I always recommend founders.org slash

00:43:27.020 church dash search.

00:43:28.940 I know people who have started going to a Bible-preaching church because of that link, because they found

00:43:36.580 a church through that resource, and through the grace of God, it's been totally life-changing

00:43:40.520 for you, and I just love that.

00:43:41.920 It's a Christian organization focused on promoting Reformed theology, but it's also Baptist,

00:43:47.620 just like me, and we are kind of like in a niche camp in the Reformed world.

00:43:52.120 But this is how they defend credo-baptism.

00:43:56.740 So they argue,

00:43:57.880 Pado-Baptists look for a profession of faith from parents before baptizing their children, 0.99

00:44:01.960 but that requirement is not revealed in either the Old Testament nor in the New Testament.

00:44:06.780 Infant baptism requires parents to profess faith,

00:44:09.180 but this rule isn't clearly found in the Bible,

00:44:12.800 in the Old Testament circumcision rules,

00:44:15.440 or in the New Testament teachings on baptism.

00:44:19.640 Credo-Baptists say that Pado-Baptists exclude unbelieving adult spouses from the covenant of grace, 1.00

00:44:25.820 but under the Old Covenant, all those in the Israelite household,

00:44:28.920 including both husbands and wives,

00:44:30.920 were in the covenant whether they believed or not.

00:44:33.760 There is no reason revealed to do this.

00:44:36.280 And so what they're saying is that if the Pado-Baptists say that sprinkling baptism for infants 0.99

00:44:41.960 is a sign of the New Covenant,

00:44:44.840 it is a reflection of what God did through circumcision in the Old Testament,

00:44:49.620 then why don't we also apply that to unbelieving adults in the household of,

00:44:55.980 say, a believing father in the way that God did in the Old Testament with circumcision?

00:45:02.460 The Old Testament included everyone in a household for circumcision,

00:45:05.480 but Pado-Baptists don't always baptize all household members,

00:45:08.640 which seems inconsistent since they use the Old Testament to justify infant baptism.

00:45:13.680 They argue Pado-Baptists see infants as part of the covenant community, 0.98

00:45:17.020 but this view doesn't fully match New Testament teachings about Jesus' role,

00:45:21.540 which stress faith, not infant inclusion, as the way to receive God's promises.

00:45:27.160 Galatians 3.7 says this,

00:45:29.920 Know that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

00:45:35.520 Colossians 2.11-12

00:45:37.000 They argue that these passages show the New Testament calls sons of Abraham those who believe,

00:45:59.780 not just physical descendants' baptism replaces circumcision through a person's faith,

00:46:04.940 not through baptizing babies,

00:46:06.860 challenging the idea that Old Testament circumcision supports infant baptism.

00:46:12.420 Okay, so that is the Credo-Baptist position.

00:46:15.840 That is the position that I hold to,

00:46:17.440 simply because that is the example that we see in the Old Testament.

00:46:20.480 I believe that at best, the Pado-Baptist position is an argument from absence and implication and assumptions.

00:46:29.680 Now, I am not against using deductive reasoning to come to a biblical principle.

00:46:34.660 For example, we have come up with the word Trinity based on what we see in Scripture

00:46:41.100 explained about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

00:46:45.000 even though we don't actually see the word Trinity in Scripture.

00:46:49.180 But when it comes to a practice, especially a practice when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church

00:46:55.260 that you're saying confers some sort of salvation,

00:46:58.800 it's really important that we understand where it's coming from.

00:47:02.320 What is the biblical basis for this?

00:47:04.280 It's not enough to say that the early church did this,

00:47:07.840 because not everyone in the early church did this.

00:47:10.160 The only infallible and inerrant authority we have on what the early church was like

00:47:15.840 is the Bible itself.

00:47:17.240 And it seems to me, when we look at the Greek word actually used for baptism,

00:47:23.280 when we look at the context of even the descriptions of households being baptized,

00:47:28.580 that this was immersion baptism for those who confessed faith in Christ.

00:47:35.180 And so the argument that, well, there were early church fathers who believed this,

00:47:41.640 there were even reformers who believed this, there were early Christians who believed this,

00:47:46.120 well, we can see in Paul's letters to the early church that Christians get things wrong, 0.50

00:47:52.260 and they need correction, and they need rebuke, and they need reformation,

00:47:56.720 to remember what was actually taught by Christ, the example that we learned in him.

00:48:03.080 And thankfully, God has divinely inspired the word of God to give us the best and most trustworthy

00:48:09.960 guidebook.

00:48:11.520 Now, do I believe that this is a salvation issue?

00:48:15.960 If you believe in infant baptism, I believe in credo baptism, but we both believe in the

00:48:22.500 true gospel that we are only saved by grace through faith in Jesus, no, I think that we're

00:48:27.760 both going to be in heaven.

00:48:29.500 However, it is very clear that baptism for believers, when we are going to making disciples

00:48:36.260 of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

00:48:40.740 that is a command for believers, that that's not optional.

00:48:44.900 And so I remember when I had this back and forth before about what baptism actually means,

00:48:50.480 and I know this is a really big sticking point when I'm debating and discussing with Catholics, 0.94

00:48:57.500 that it cheapens baptism if something is just a symbol.

00:49:01.440 If it's just a symbol, then why doesn't it matter?

00:49:03.540 Well, there are a lot of things that are just a symbol that matter.

00:49:06.800 This wedding ring that I am wearing right now, it is just a symbol, but it carries significance.

00:49:13.160 It is an outward sign of a covenant that my husband and I have made to each other.

00:49:18.880 Now, if I take off this ring, I am still married because the covenant goes beyond this ring, but

00:49:25.540 this is an important signifier, an important symbol of a deeper reality.

00:49:31.100 And that's not even a perfect comparison because baptism is actually something that is required

00:49:39.740 by Jesus, is necessary.

00:49:41.660 However, it is not what saves us, because that would be to say that we could earn our salvation

00:49:47.400 in some way that is, there is a work of righteousness that we must do to be reconciled to God.

00:49:53.320 And Jesus has done all that work on our behalf.

00:49:58.140 It is a free gift, as we read in Ephesians 2.

00:50:02.080 All right.

00:50:02.760 So that is just kind of skimming the surface of this debate on pedo-baptism versus credo-baptism.

00:50:09.340 I welcome all of your thoughts.

00:50:11.820 Please have respectful dialogue and debate over this.

00:50:15.340 It's an important subject, and we should be discussing it and asking our pastors about

00:50:21.700 this and trying to understand it better, but it is no reason for vitriol and for hatred.

00:50:28.720 All right.

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00:50:35.600 They are doing mortgages not just by the book, but by the book, by the Bible, by the word of

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00:50:41.240 They are Christians.

00:50:42.200 They started this company to glorify God and to help you make these big purchases like

00:50:48.300 a home in a way that honors God.

00:50:50.700 And they work with integrity.

00:50:53.080 They work with diligence.

00:50:54.640 They work with efficiency.

00:50:56.860 I have heard from some of you who have worked with them at Fellowship Home Loans, and they

00:51:02.040 have just been a game changer for you.

00:51:04.400 One of my listeners reached out.

00:51:06.520 He had been denied, actually, by two different lenders.

00:51:09.240 One told him that his debt-to-income ratio didn't work.

00:51:12.520 Another said that his home wasn't enough, and he was anxious about this.

00:51:16.520 He didn't know what to do, but Fellowship Home Loans, he heard about them on this show.

00:51:21.740 He prayed about it.

00:51:22.480 He decided to call, and within a week, not only was his loan approved, but Fellowship

00:51:27.480 Home Loans helped him pay off his first mortgage, his second mortgage, and all of his debt.

00:51:32.460 I mean, that is life-changing right there.

00:51:34.600 They are fully dedicated to doing a great job for you and for the glory of God.

00:51:39.280 Go to Fellowship Home Loans slash Allie, fellowshiphomeloans.com slash Allie.

00:51:43.560 Get a $500 credit at closing just for my listeners.

00:51:47.440 Terms apply.

00:51:48.160 See site for details.

00:51:49.700 Fellowship Home Loans.

00:51:51.080 Nationwide Mortgage Bankers, DBA, Fellowship Home Loans, Equal Housing Lender, NMLS number

00:51:55.820 819-382.

00:52:02.220 All right, guys, if you've got more suggestions for topics that we should cover on our Theology

00:52:08.960 and Topical Wednesday, please send those to me.

00:52:12.160 Y'all have sent some really good ones, and we are going to dive into those over the next

00:52:17.540 few weeks.

00:52:18.220 If you've got any spicy topics, like I said on Instagram, though, if you suggest something

00:52:23.100 that I've talked about a lot, then I'm going to fine you.

00:52:27.520 I don't remember how much I said.

00:52:28.820 I said, I think I said like $638.7.43.

00:52:33.100 I'm going to fine you, and you're going to get a bill in the mail because you did not do

00:52:36.860 your due diligence.

00:52:38.360 If you ever want to know if I've talked about something, you can type in either on YouTube.

00:52:42.820 I think it works a little bit better on Apple Podcasts.

00:52:46.140 You can type in the subject that you're looking for and relatable, and it should come up.

00:52:49.940 On YouTube, you might have to be more specific and type in Ali Stuckey or a guest that you're

00:52:55.060 looking for.

00:52:55.880 I've probably talked about the thing that you are looking for, but if I have someone say,

00:53:01.000 oh, you should talk about Israel and dispensational versus covenant theology, I'm going to bop you 0.69

00:53:06.460 on the head, and I'm going to fine you $6,000, okay?

00:53:09.760 But if you've done your due diligence and you still want me to cover something that either

00:53:14.200 I haven't covered in a long time, haven't covered very much, or I have never covered, then

00:53:18.720 please send your suggestions.

00:53:20.380 That'd be great.

00:53:21.560 All right.

00:53:21.820 One more thing, blazetv.com slash Ali has an awesome deal going in celebration of the 4th

00:53:28.680 of July to celebrate true No King's Day.

00:53:32.360 You can go to blazetv.com slash Ali, and you will get a seven-day free trial for Blaze TV.

00:53:40.360 You get access to all of our Behind the Paywall subscriber-only stuff.

00:53:43.580 blazetv.com slash Ali for that seven-day trial, blazetv.com slash Ali.

00:53:49.100 All right, guys.

00:53:50.100 That's all we've got time for today.

00:53:51.580 We will not be back here on Friday because it's the 4th of July.

00:53:54.540 We will be back here on Monday.

00:53:55.920 Bye.

00:53:56.040 Bye.

00:53:56.120 Bye.

00:53:56.540 Bye.

00:53:57.040 Bye.

00:53:57.540 Bye.

00:53:58.040 Bye.

00:53:58.540 Bye.

00:53:59.040 Bye.

00:53:59.540 Bye.

00:54:00.040 Bye.

00:54:00.540 Bye.

00:54:01.540 Bye.

00:54:02.040 Bye.

00:54:02.540 Bye.

00:54:03.540 Bye.

00:54:04.540 Bye.

00:54:05.540 Bye.

00:54:06.540 Bye.

00:54:07.540 Bye.

00:54:08.540 Bye.

00:54:09.540 Bye.

00:54:10.540 Bye.

00:54:11.540 Bye.

00:54:12.540 Bye.

00:54:13.580 Bye.

00:54:15.540 Bye.

00:54:33.540 Bye.

00:54:42.540 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 02, 2025

Ep 1213 ｜ Infant Baptism vs. Believers' Baptism： What’s Biblical？

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