Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 02, 2025


Ep 1213 | Infant Baptism vs. Believers' Baptism: What’s Biblical?


Episode Stats


Length

54 minutes

Words per minute

151.04706

Word count

8,266

Sentence count

567

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

24

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Infant baptism vs. believer's baptism: The age old debate! On today's episode of Relatable, Allie and Allie debate the difference between infant and believer's baptisms, and why they are different.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:01.000 Infant baptism versus believer's baptism, the age-old debate.
00:00:06.060 We are having it today on today's episode of Relatable.
00:00:10.500 It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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00:00:26.540 Hey, y'all.
00:00:27.360 Welcome to Relatable.
00:00:28.280 Happy Wednesday.
00:00:30.020 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.
00:00:32.480 I had to remind myself what day it is because typically the second episode that is out in
00:00:37.480 a week comes out on Tuesday, but with our new schedule with Relatable coming out on Monday,
00:00:43.440 Wednesdays, and Fridays now, it is indeed Wednesday.
00:00:47.880 And as promised, we are following our format.
00:00:50.940 Even with so much going on on the news on Wednesday, we are going to do a theological topic.
00:00:57.240 Now, sometimes it might be something that's going on in the news that fits into a broader
00:01:03.600 theological theme that we can dissect, but today we are not talking about anything news
00:01:08.980 related.
00:01:09.700 We are talking about baptism.
00:01:12.440 If you go back to some episodes that I did in 2019, those were strictly topical when I was
00:01:18.820 in my first maternity leave.
00:01:20.520 I think there were like nine weeks of episodes we had pre-recorded to come out after I had my
00:01:26.980 first child six years ago, and we covered a lot of political and theological topics.
00:01:34.640 But one topic that I don't believe we have ever covered in depth is baptism.
00:01:41.000 That's paedo-baptism, infant baptism, versus credo-baptism, which is not necessarily adult
00:01:48.620 baptism, but believer's baptism.
00:01:51.520 So today we are going to get into those two perspectives.
00:01:55.560 As always, I am going to try my very best to steel man both arguments.
00:02:02.540 That is the opposite of a straw man.
00:02:05.260 A straw man is a logical fallacy where you build up your opponent's argument in a fictitious
00:02:12.220 way.
00:02:12.800 So you try to articulate something that they're not actually arguing, that they're not actually
00:02:18.400 saying.
00:02:18.680 You see this so much on social media.
00:02:20.520 I could say being barefoot on planes is gross.
00:02:25.200 And a straw man would be, so you're saying that being barefoot in your own home is disgusting
00:02:34.000 and you think that I am a gross pig?
00:02:37.140 That's a straw man.
00:02:38.460 That might be true.
00:02:39.820 But I am not arguing that.
00:02:42.140 I am arguing just that being barefoot on airplanes is gross.
00:02:46.720 I'm not also arguing that you should never fly or that you should never take your shoes
00:02:51.860 off in any context.
00:02:53.780 And that is so much of social media.
00:02:56.880 But if you are steel manning someone's argument, which is really the only way to be honest and
00:03:03.420 therefore persuasive, you are trying to actually articulate what they believe in the most charitable
00:03:10.920 way possible.
00:03:12.920 You are trying to truly understand, if it's there, the logic behind what someone believes.
00:03:20.100 That is way more conducive to productive conversations and, again, is actually a lot more effective
00:03:26.860 if you are trying to persuade someone.
00:03:30.280 Now, sometimes someone's argument is completely illogical.
00:03:33.440 Sometimes it really is stupid.
00:03:35.800 And sometimes they do have ulterior motives and malicious intent behind what they're saying.
00:03:41.680 If you're pointing that out, that's not always fallacious.
00:03:45.160 But if you are doing that dishonestly without trying to articulate what they actually believe
00:03:51.340 and the coherence, if any, behind what they're saying, then that is indeed fallacious.
00:03:57.700 So, that said, I am a credo-baptist.
00:04:01.880 That means I am a believer in believer's baptism.
00:04:06.460 That baptism is an outward sign of inward regeneration.
00:04:12.180 And I believe that this is the best and most biblical way to follow the example of Christ
00:04:18.260 and the believers and their response to repentance that we see throughout Scripture.
00:04:25.980 So, I will not hide that.
00:04:28.000 At the end, I will articulate why I have the position that I do.
00:04:33.660 But I am going to do my very best at articulating why the infant baptism camp,
00:04:40.600 both in the Catholic world and in the Protestant world, believe the things they do,
00:04:45.980 why they have the position that they have.
00:04:49.380 And for those of you who, like me, you grew up maybe Southern Baptist or in a non-denominational church,
00:04:56.380 all you know is believer's baptism,
00:04:58.440 and you've never really given much thought to why there are Christians that we truly consider
00:05:04.080 brothers and sisters in Christ, why they believe in the sprinkling,
00:05:07.880 why do they believe in infant baptism.
00:05:10.440 And I think it's important to know for us to have discussions and to see why this really matters.
00:05:15.640 And of course, the Bible, truth, always really matters.
00:05:19.940 And so, us knowing, understanding everything that is going on in these theological camps
00:05:25.360 is super important.
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00:07:23.620 All right, y'all.
00:07:24.440 So let's get into it.
00:07:25.880 So the word baptism comes from the Greek word that is used in the New Testament, baptizo,
00:07:32.720 which literally means to dip or to immerse.
00:07:35.360 There really is no controversy surrounding that.
00:07:39.160 The controversy is around the interpretation of what that actually means for believers today.
00:07:44.420 Baptism, all denominations, all forms of Christian believe that it is a form of identification as a Christian,
00:07:53.620 that it is a public profession of our faith and identification with Christ.
00:08:00.380 There are several verses that refer to baptism in the New Testament.
00:08:04.420 We've got Romans 6, 3 through 4.
00:08:06.500 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
00:08:13.900 We were buried, therefore, with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father,
00:08:22.020 we too might walk in newness of life.
00:08:25.420 And actually, at my church and at most Baptist churches, I believe that is what is said when a believer is baptized,
00:08:34.240 buried with Christ in his death and raised to walk in the newness of life.
00:08:40.380 All denominations agree that baptism is an act of obedience to Jesus's instructions.
00:08:47.620 Matthew 28, 19,
00:08:49.320 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
00:08:58.060 Acts 2, 38 through 41,
00:09:00.120 And Peter said to them,
00:09:01.280 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, 0.85
00:09:06.520 everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.
00:09:10.400 And with many other words, he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying,
00:09:14.400 Save yourselves from this crooked generation. 1.00
00:09:16.420 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about 3,000 souls.
00:09:23.580 1 Peter 3, 21,
00:09:25.100 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body,
00:09:30.660 but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
00:09:36.620 So different parts of Christianity interpret these verses differently to support their view of either believer's baptism,
00:09:43.920 either as a child or as an adult or infant baptism.
00:09:49.320 There are three different modes of baptism.
00:09:52.180 There is sprinkling a few drops on someone's head.
00:09:56.040 This is practiced by Methodists, by Roman Catholics, by Presbyterians, by Lutherans.
00:10:02.200 There is pouring, also called effusion, pouring of water over someone's head.
00:10:06.860 It's practiced by Mennonites, by the Amish.
00:10:10.500 And then there's immersion.
00:10:12.340 And this is primarily used by Baptists and by non-denominational churches that are basically functionally Baptist,
00:10:21.560 even if they are not officially part of the Southern Baptist Convention,
00:10:25.760 which is the largest denomination in the United States.
00:10:28.820 So the question is, when should we be baptized?
00:10:32.660 And the question is, how should we be baptized?
00:10:35.660 When and how should we be baptized?
00:10:37.960 But there's also a debate about what this baptism actually means.
00:10:42.260 So first, we're going to look at the paedo-baptist side. 0.99
00:10:46.740 Paedo-baptism, this comes from the Greek word paes, or child.
00:10:51.740 It's also known as infant baptism.
00:10:54.340 That's probably what you've heard it referred to as in layman's terms.
00:10:58.400 It is the Christian practice of baptizing infants or young children, typically infants.
00:11:05.380 This is those who are born to believing parents.
00:11:09.720 This is within Protestantism, at least, as a means of incorporating them into the faith and the church community.
00:11:17.940 It is also, however, practiced by non-Protestants, by Roman Catholic Church,
00:11:24.080 by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Churches.
00:11:28.400 But there is a difference in what these people believe infant baptism actually means.
00:11:37.280 The Presbyterian Church in America, for example, practices infant baptism.
00:11:42.620 They don't teach that this baptism actually saves the child,
00:11:46.400 but they teach that infant baptism is actually a covenant sign.
00:11:50.980 It's not salvific, but it is the same as Old Testament circumcision. 0.94
00:11:56.720 It's a covenantal sign that shows welcoming this child into the Christian family.
00:12:03.580 And, of course, they still believe that a true profession of faith needs to be made at some point in that child's life,
00:12:11.860 in that person's life, for them to actually be saved and go to heaven.
00:12:16.540 This is a difference between covenantal theology, which we talked about a little bit last week on Thursday,
00:12:22.960 and sacramental theology, which is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.
00:12:27.500 And we'll get into more of those details in a second.
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00:13:58.840 So there are many prominent church fathers,
00:14:03.060 many prominent people in church history who were Paedo-Baptists, 0.84
00:14:07.240 Augustine of Hippo, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Wesley.
00:14:11.980 I mean, many of the people that Baptists hold in high regard for their theology
00:14:17.700 were actually proponents of infant baptism.
00:14:21.260 Of course, R.C. Sproul, he's a Reformed theologian, the founder of Ligonier Ministries.
00:14:26.760 You've got N.T. Wright, Timothy Keller.
00:14:29.260 You've got all of the Catholic teachers and popes.
00:14:33.180 And so let's break down the difference between the Paedo-Baptist Protestant view,
00:14:38.280 what Presbyterians and other denominations believe,
00:14:42.160 and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches when it comes to infant baptism.
00:14:47.660 So this is according to Ligonier.
00:14:49.480 That is the ministry that was started by the Presbyterian Reformed theologian, R.C. Sproul.
00:14:54.840 They say that the New Testament nowhere commands us to baptize infants,
00:14:58.620 but neither does it anywhere.
00:15:01.460 Forbid it.
00:15:02.200 Okay, a circumcision and baptism are linked in Colossians 2.11-12, for example.
00:15:09.920 And so baptism, like circumcision, need not be tied to the moment of profession.
00:15:15.760 Again, this is from Ligonier.
00:15:17.940 Colossians 2.11-12 says this,
00:15:20.160 So Presbyterians, those who are on the infant baptism site in the Protestant world would say,
00:15:43.200 okay, this is a symbol of God's covenant to his people that is similar to or a parallel to
00:15:53.940 the outward sign of God's covenant to his people in the Old Testament, which was circumcision.
00:16:00.800 So this camp would argue that Old Covenant promises were given to adults and their children,
00:16:06.420 and this was depicted through circumcision.
00:16:08.880 It's hard to imagine.
00:16:11.040 Ligonier says that the greater new covenant promises and signs should not also be given
00:16:16.160 to the infant children of believing adults.
00:16:20.260 The Old Testament taught that those entire households were circumcised, obviously not the females,
00:16:27.220 as were entire households baptized in the New Testament.
00:16:31.580 And so they'd go to the Old Testament, Genesis 17.11-13, for example,
00:16:36.160 and they would look at the Abrahamic covenant.
00:16:39.300 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins. 1.00
00:16:41.760 It shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you, God says to Abraham.
00:16:47.020 Then they would look at the New Testament.
00:16:48.920 Passages like Acts 16.15 say that Lydia's household was baptized.
00:16:55.040 Acts 16.33, the Philippian jailer's household.
00:16:58.620 1 Corinthians 1.16, Stephanus' household.
00:17:01.860 So Pado-Baptists argue that these texts imply baptism was not restricted to believers.
00:17:08.520 They would say that one person believed, and therefore their household could be baptized,
00:17:13.920 again, as a sign of the covenant that at least one person in the household had accepted through
00:17:19.940 the grace of Jesus Christ.
00:17:22.440 Paul says, this camp argues, that the children of a Christian parent are set apart to God.
00:17:30.220 And so 1 Corinthians 7.14, for example,
00:17:34.440 for the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, 0.87
00:17:37.620 and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. 0.62
00:17:40.200 Otherwise, your children would be unclean.
00:17:42.100 But as it is, they are holy.
00:17:46.200 They would also say that like circumcision, baptism without personal faith has no effect.
00:17:51.680 However, it does identify the child as part of the visible church community and holds them
00:17:59.140 to a higher standard of judgment if they never come to trust in God.
00:18:04.740 And where they support this claim is Luke 12.48.
00:18:08.540 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating.
00:18:13.700 Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required.
00:18:17.420 And from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
00:18:20.820 This is Jesus speaking in a parable.
00:18:23.400 But they use the principle that he is articulating there to say,
00:18:27.100 okay, a lot is going to be expected and required of this child who was baptized
00:18:31.480 into the faith as an infant.
00:18:35.920 This is from the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary,
00:18:39.520 who gives us a detailed historical analysis of this position.
00:18:47.120 If you look back to why Augustine, for example, believed in infant baptism,
00:18:54.180 he didn't believe that it was just a New Testament covenant sign of a child being welcomed into the
00:19:00.440 church, but he truly believed, as Catholics do, that it was cleansing of original sin. 0.99
00:19:06.700 Not that the infant had done anything wrong.
00:19:09.900 They hadn't knowingly sinned yet because they don't have the capacity to do that.
00:19:14.100 But that even newborns carry the weight of original sin, which, by the way,
00:19:18.480 Reformed people, Baptists also believe that everyone has inherited original sin from Adam.
00:19:24.660 But Augustine believed that this baptism in infancy actually cleansed them of any responsibility,
00:19:32.360 of any guilt that was inherited because of original sin.
00:19:37.800 It would actually just wipe it out.
00:19:40.500 By the 3rd century, baptizing babies became more common, partly because so many infants died young then,
00:19:47.700 and so they saw it.
00:19:49.220 Many Christians then saw it as protection from hell or damnation.
00:19:53.760 Parents and church leaders wanted to make sure that babies were, quote-unquote,
00:19:57.040 safe spiritually, and this article says that due to the dual pressures of infant mortality
00:20:05.580 and evolving views of the sinfulness of newborn infants, the novel practice of baptizing infants
00:20:10.760 became widespread by the 3rd century.
00:20:13.100 This practice was not accepted as universal, even in the 4th century, as infants' need for forgiveness
00:20:17.800 continued to be questioned.
00:20:20.820 Okay, and then we've got the Catholic view, which we kind of already touched on a little bit
00:20:25.900 with what Augustine believes, but we'll get into that in more detail in just a second.
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00:23:12.600 So in Catholic teaching, baptism is seen as a sacrament that conveys grace.
00:23:24.440 It spiritually renews a person and serves as the primary way to enter the Christian faith.
00:23:30.340 It is the first of seven sacraments.
00:23:32.120 So it is believed, like Augustine believed, to wash away original sin, unite the person
00:23:39.480 with the Roman Catholic Church.
00:23:42.180 They also believe there is a regenerative effect, a salvific effect there of infant baptism.
00:23:49.100 So this is from a Vatican doctrinal document that was released in 1980.
00:23:54.780 This is according to the Vatican.
00:23:56.660 The Catholic Church teaches that, quote,
00:23:58.520 Baptism is necessary for salvation.
00:24:13.460 Baptism is never administered without faith.
00:24:16.360 However, the Catholic Church would say, in the case of infants, it is the faith of the
00:24:21.000 church, so not necessarily their individual faith.
00:24:23.900 Furthermore, in accordance with the teaching of the Council of Trent on the sacraments, baptism
00:24:27.700 is not just a sign of faith, but a cause of faith.
00:24:32.840 So they really see that baptism as necessary for salvation.
00:24:38.620 And they would point to a variety of verses.
00:24:41.280 They would look to John 3, 5.
00:24:43.680 They would look to Titus 3, 5.
00:24:46.500 They would look to Mark 16, 16.
00:24:49.520 Acts 22, 16 says,
00:24:54.140 We've already read Acts 2, 38 through 41, where Peter says the promise is for you and
00:25:07.020 your children and all who are far off.
00:25:09.780 We've got 1 Peter 3, 21 that says, again, that baptism saves you.
00:25:16.500 And they would also point to the verses that we've already read about baptism occurring in
00:25:23.140 entire households when just one person was saved.
00:25:28.020 So same basic act between those who are Pado-Baptists in the Protestant world and in the Catholic world, 1.00
00:25:35.280 but there is a different meaning behind them based on covenantal theology, which Protestants
00:25:41.200 believe, those Pado-Protestants believe, Pado-Baptists believe, and then the sacramental 0.99
00:25:47.700 theology that the Catholics believe, where baptism is truly salvific, versus the covenantal
00:25:56.220 theology belief that baptism is a sign.
00:26:00.200 A little bit more than just an outward sign, because it is an inward covenant, but again,
00:26:06.040 they don't believe that it's actually salvific.
00:26:08.100 Okay, so what does my camp believe?
00:26:10.560 What does a Credo-Baptist believe? 1.00
00:26:13.940 Credo-Baptist, that word credo comes from the Latin word for creed or belief.
00:26:19.900 Credo means I believe.
00:26:21.780 So we believe, this is according to Desiring God, this is John Piper's ministry, he is a
00:26:26.640 Credo-Baptist.
00:26:27.560 Baptism is an appeal to God and a symbol of the decisive act of the Holy Spirit.
00:26:33.260 The Holy Spirit is who washes us, regenerates us, renews us in his application of Christ's
00:26:39.200 work in our lives.
00:26:40.500 Christian baptism is the way someone publicly declares their faith and commitment to following
00:26:45.820 Jesus.
00:26:47.180 From Believer's Baptism and the Petristic Writings, this is by Stephen A. McKinnon.
00:26:52.280 Believer's Baptism is the practice of baptizing only those who profess faith in Jesus Christ 0.98
00:26:58.400 for their salvation, having repented of their sin.
00:27:01.720 So repented means to turn away from.
00:27:04.140 So we have said, I don't want to live that life anymore.
00:27:06.560 I have accepted by faith in Christ according to the grace that was given to me that Jesus
00:27:14.100 Christ is who he says he is, that he died for my sins, that I have forgiveness and reconciliation
00:27:20.180 to God through Christ.
00:27:22.520 And because of that grace that is in me, because of the faith that I now have, I want to walk
00:27:29.560 in accordance with his word.
00:27:30.920 I want to turn away from my old self and my old ways, and I want to walk in the example
00:27:38.740 of Jesus.
00:27:40.160 That would be a long-winded way to define what repentance is.
00:27:43.420 An essential element of the practice is that baptism is subsequent to repentance and faith.
00:27:50.500 That is the distinctive of what credo-baptists believe.
00:27:53.500 While both Baptists and pedo-baptists may agree that the function of the ordinance is to outwardly
00:27:58.880 profess faith, Baptists deny that the action professes future faith.
00:28:03.980 And we certainly deny that it is salvific in any way, that it has the power to wash away
00:28:09.520 original sin, or that it is necessary or even right to baptize infants.
00:28:16.320 We would certainly not affirm that.
00:28:19.460 Baptists, churches of Christ, Pentecostals, non-denominational churches reject infant baptism,
00:28:27.380 arguing that personal belief must come before baptism.
00:28:32.820 Several Baptists throughout history, however, definitely later than most of the church fathers,
00:28:40.540 although that's not to say that credo-baptism wasn't believed by the earliest Christians,
00:28:45.420 because again, we see that the earliest Christians, including Jesus himself, were submerged,
00:28:51.440 which we'll get into in just a second.
00:28:53.240 The prominent contemporary supporters of believers' baptism, John Piper, Al Mohler,
00:28:59.320 John MacArthur, many others, if we look at some of the earliest writings that were against
00:29:07.420 infant baptism, we do have a church father, Tertullian, for example, and he wrote a book
00:29:13.100 on baptism called The Baptismo in the First Decade of the Third Century.
00:29:18.820 He writes,
00:29:19.680 Let children come then when they grow up.
00:29:22.040 Let them become Christians when they are able to know Christ.
00:29:25.800 And in that work that seems to be the earliest work that we see besides the Bible itself,
00:29:30.240 I would argue that is against infant baptism.
00:29:34.060 Dallas Baptist University religion professor Mark Nickens explains the history of believers' baptism.
00:29:40.200 He says that many reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin broke from the Catholic Church,
00:29:47.400 creating new Christian groups with diverse beliefs about what it means to be Christian.
00:29:50.700 He's just explaining very briefly the Reformation there.
00:29:55.960 On January 21st, 1525, there were a variety of priests who acted on their beliefs about baptism
00:30:05.120 that differed from the Catholic Church, with one of the reformers baptizing another,
00:30:11.020 pouring water, marking the start of the Anabaptist movement.
00:30:14.420 The Anabaptist movement rejected infant baptism for believers' baptism.
00:30:20.560 The word Anabaptist means re-baptize, or it was originally used as kind of like a pejorative
00:30:25.400 by their opponents, because Anabaptists believed in adult baptism,
00:30:29.760 rejected the validity of infant baptism.
00:30:31.780 And during that time, a lot of them had already been baptized into the Catholic Church,
00:30:36.320 but they were being baptized in a different way as adults.
00:30:40.300 And many Baptists throughout history have been persecuted,
00:30:43.280 especially in those early years of the Protestant Reformation,
00:30:46.940 because of what they believed about baptism.
00:30:49.300 Of course, being called heretics, people being excommunicated
00:30:53.080 from the Catholic Church for questioning baptism.
00:30:58.440 And so this was a very hot topic back in the day, and still actually is in some ways.
00:31:05.460 And so here are the verses that we use, the analysis that we use to come up with our belief
00:31:11.580 that baptism really is just for believers.
00:31:15.620 We look at Acts 2.38 through 41, which is actually a verse that we have already read a couple times
00:31:21.800 to try to support pedo-baptism.
00:31:23.940 So yes, this verse does say for you and your children.
00:31:50.260 However, it's very clear there that those who received his word were baptized.
00:31:56.740 There is no implication whatsoever that those who did not receive his word,
00:32:00.620 that those who did not believe were also baptized.
00:32:03.740 Whenever we see in any verse that their household was baptized,
00:32:08.180 it takes a lot of assumption to come to the conclusion that non-believing children or infants were baptized.
00:32:15.940 We don't see that explicitly anywhere throughout Scripture.
00:32:18.740 We do not see that example.
00:32:20.600 And actually, again, Ligonier Ministries, which is Presbyterian and Reformed,
00:32:25.300 believes in infant baptism.
00:32:27.080 They say that outright, that the Bible never commands infant baptism.
00:32:30.900 But I would go further than that.
00:32:32.600 It's not that it never commands infant baptism.
00:32:34.960 We don't see that anywhere.
00:32:36.800 We don't even see an implication of baptizing infants anywhere.
00:32:42.140 And in fact, as we'll get into in a second, the idea of sprinkling baptism is really an oxymoron.
00:32:50.580 That's not what baptism means in the Greek.
00:32:53.900 It actually means to immerse.
00:32:56.500 And so it seems to me that the writers of the New Testament who were watching the earliest Christians 0.61
00:33:02.040 understood that they weren't talking about a sprinkling,
00:33:04.820 that that's not what Jesus commanded us to do.
00:33:08.620 That's not what Jesus actually partook in when he was baptized.
00:33:12.540 But this was actually an immersion and a dunking.
00:33:18.020 We look at Romans 6, 3 through 4.
00:33:20.580 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into
00:33:25.800 his death?
00:33:26.340 We were buried, therefore, with him by baptism into death in order that just as Christ was
00:33:31.340 raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life.
00:33:36.800 So that is what baptism is supposed to signify.
00:33:39.960 Just like Jesus rose from the dead, came out of the tomb, so Christians are rising out of the 1.00
00:33:47.740 water, into newness of life.
00:33:50.140 Romans 6 makes it very clear what we are supposed to signify when we are being baptized.
00:33:58.300 Colossians 2, 11 through 12.
00:33:59.980 In him you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of 0.97
00:34:04.960 flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism.
00:34:09.960 So the baptism is supposed to be like a burial.
00:34:13.800 This is identification with Christ, his death, his resurrection, our identification with Christ
00:34:21.460 comes through baptism.
00:34:24.300 Baptists reject this idea that physical baptism actually saves you.
00:34:30.220 So this first, 1 Peter 3, 21, baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a
00:34:36.000 removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection
00:34:41.720 of Jesus Christ.
00:34:43.880 And so he actually makes clear there, Peter is making clear that we're not talking about
00:34:48.840 physical baptism having salvation power.
00:34:52.280 We are talking about the baptism that is internal, that can only come through the regeneration of
00:35:00.340 the Holy Spirit.
00:35:01.420 We are talking about the heart change by grace through faith that Jesus accomplishes in your
00:35:06.840 life that is salvation.
00:35:09.580 Titus 3, 5, God saved us not because of works done by us in righteousness, that would include
00:35:15.360 baptism by the way, but according to his own mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewal
00:35:21.500 of the Holy Spirit.
00:35:23.020 So the renewal and the regeneration and the change comes through the Holy Spirit, not the physical
00:35:29.920 act of being baptized, which again is an external signifier of an inward reality, an external signifier
00:35:37.420 not only of identity with Christ, but identification of Christ's burial and his resurrection.
00:35:45.500 Okay, we've got a few more points on that, specifically about Jesus and his example that he set for us.
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00:37:08.680 Okay, I think the clearest argument for believer's baptism is in the example of Jesus.
00:37:21.800 And it's interesting because Catholics will say, for example, and we'll do an episode on this,
00:37:27.280 the real presence of the Eucharist, whether this is a symbol of Jesus's body and blood,
00:37:33.580 or whether it is the real presence of Christ in the bread and the wine, they will say this
00:37:39.740 is literal.
00:37:40.880 This is not symbolic.
00:37:42.320 Jesus is not speaking in metaphors, even though Jesus spoke in symbolism and metaphors a lot
00:37:47.740 in his ministry, but they will say, no, this was literal.
00:37:51.520 But I do think it's interesting that for some reason, when it comes to baptism and what we
00:37:57.260 clearly see happening here, that was not supposed to be an example for believers, at least
00:38:03.380 according to Roman Catholic teaching and according to some Protestant teaching.
00:38:07.680 So we see in Matthew 3, 16, and when Jesus was baptized, baptizo, again, that word means
00:38:14.440 immersed, immediately he went up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened to him
00:38:18.920 and he saw the spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest upon him.
00:38:22.760 Mark 1, 10.
00:38:23.920 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the spirit
00:38:28.440 descending upon him like a dove.
00:38:31.800 Okay, so here's what a Presbyterian, Pado-Baptist scholar would say.
00:38:35.640 His name is Albert Barnes.
00:38:36.980 He wrote commentary on the book of Matthew.
00:38:40.460 And so he said, it, he came out of the water, literally means he, Jesus, went up directly
00:38:46.160 from the water.
00:38:47.940 This is what he argues.
00:38:49.000 The original does not imply that they had descended into the river.
00:38:52.560 It cannot be proved.
00:38:54.020 Therefore, from this passage, that his baptism was by immersion.
00:38:59.180 And so that view is that actually Jesus wasn't actually immersed.
00:39:02.860 I don't know if it's that he was sprinkled or like what the argument is there, but I
00:39:07.940 think it is kind of like another argument from absence.
00:39:11.240 While we don't see for absolute sure that he was immersed, and so we can't say this is
00:39:15.260 the example that he set for believers.
00:39:17.040 The Catholic view on Mark 1, 9 through 10, this is according to Catholic Answers, Mark
00:39:23.160 1, 9 through 10 doesn't say, Catholic Answers says, that Christ was baptized by immersion,
00:39:27.880 only that after his baptism, Jesus came up out of the water.
00:39:30.720 The phrase could refer to immersion, but it needn't.
00:39:33.780 Jesus could have stepped into the shallows and had John the Baptist pour water on his head.
00:39:37.320 Even if Jesus had been baptized by immersion, this wouldn't present a problem for Catholics.
00:39:41.600 We accept baptism by immersion as a valid mode of receiving the sacrament.
00:39:46.440 Okay, so I just do want to make that clear because I don't think I've specified that
00:39:50.060 yet, that I don't think Catholics would condemn baptism by immersion.
00:39:55.220 But again, this would be in accordance with sacramental theology, that this is a washing
00:40:00.820 away of original sin, which we Protestants do not hold to.
00:40:06.260 So here is an article in The Christian Courier by someone named Wayne Jackson.
00:40:11.120 I thought he explained the credo-baptist position well.
00:40:14.800 While he is refuting the Presbyterian scholar, Albert Barnes, that we cited just a minute ago.
00:40:22.440 He says, those who practice ritualistic sprinkling as a substitute for water immersion commonly
00:40:27.080 allege that baptism from the very commencement of the Christian age was implemented either
00:40:31.520 by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling.
00:40:33.760 They claim that ancient literary sources and even a few scriptural references support this
00:40:38.220 diversity.
00:40:38.800 He says, it must be noted that the expression baptismal sprinkling is a contradiction.
00:40:44.040 That's what I was just saying.
00:40:45.260 The Greek term baptismo means to dip, submerge, and immerse.
00:40:48.940 The Greek historian Polybius used the word to describe a sinking ship.
00:40:53.620 In the Greek version of the Old Testament, the cognate form bapto clearly is distinguished
00:40:58.840 from the term sprinkle, which is rantizo, and por, kio.
00:41:03.020 See Leviticus 14.
00:41:04.060 To speak of baptismal sprinkling would constitute a contradiction of terms.
00:41:08.580 The verbs represent entirely different actions.
00:41:11.720 Second, there is not a solitary passage in the New Testament, Wayne Jackson says, that
00:41:16.060 lends any support to the idea that the act called baptism by the New Testament writers
00:41:20.240 was administered by the sprinkling or pouring of water upon a person's head.
00:41:24.920 Albert Barnes, the Presbyterian scholar that we cited earlier, puts a lot of emphasis on
00:41:30.700 that word from, trying to argue that it doesn't necessarily mean that Jesus was immersed.
00:41:36.660 But Wayne Jackson points out the argument is based upon the fact that the term from is
00:41:41.740 the Greek word apo, which generally means away from.
00:41:45.560 But, Jackson says, apo can also be used in the sense of out of, as in the case of Luke
00:41:50.800 24, 47.
00:41:52.440 The Pharisees wanted Jesus to show them a sign from apo, heaven.
00:41:56.980 However, in the parallel passages, in both Mark and Luke's accounts, the preposition used
00:42:01.460 is ek, instead of out, instead of apo.
00:42:05.300 So, those words, when used interchangeably, we see that ek literally means coming up out
00:42:12.540 of.
00:42:13.500 So, he argues that the most likely and logical interpretation of that verse is that apo actually
00:42:22.220 means coming out of, since it is also sometimes interchangeably used with ek, which always
00:42:29.060 means coming out of.
00:42:31.980 Mark also wrote that Jesus was baptized of John in the Jordan.
00:42:36.360 The preposition rendered in, in our common versions, is ais, which means in to.
00:42:43.740 Finally, the theological connection between baptism and the burial and resurrection of Christ,
00:42:48.920 Romans 6, 3-4, which we've read a couple times now, Colossians 2, 12, negates the notion that
00:42:54.880 the rite may be performed by sprinkling or pouring.
00:42:58.020 The prospective Christian is buried in the water of baptism with Christ, just as Jesus 1.00
00:43:03.200 was raised out of the tomb, so we also are raised from the liquid grave of baptism.
00:43:10.180 And I think that is exactly right, that that symbol, that that signifier really matters.
00:43:15.980 Now, Founders Ministry, it's a ministry that we have referred to several times.
00:43:21.400 In fact, if you are looking for a Bible-preaching church, I always recommend founders.org slash
00:43:27.020 church dash search.
00:43:28.940 I know people who have started going to a Bible-preaching church because of that link, because they found
00:43:36.580 a church through that resource, and through the grace of God, it's been totally life-changing
00:43:40.520 for you, and I just love that.
00:43:41.920 It's a Christian organization focused on promoting Reformed theology, but it's also Baptist,
00:43:47.620 just like me, and we are kind of like in a niche camp in the Reformed world.
00:43:52.120 But this is how they defend credo-baptism.
00:43:56.740 So they argue,
00:43:57.880 Pado-Baptists look for a profession of faith from parents before baptizing their children, 0.99
00:44:01.960 but that requirement is not revealed in either the Old Testament nor in the New Testament.
00:44:06.780 Infant baptism requires parents to profess faith,
00:44:09.180 but this rule isn't clearly found in the Bible,
00:44:12.800 in the Old Testament circumcision rules,
00:44:15.440 or in the New Testament teachings on baptism.
00:44:19.640 Credo-Baptists say that Pado-Baptists exclude unbelieving adult spouses from the covenant of grace, 1.00
00:44:25.820 but under the Old Covenant, all those in the Israelite household,
00:44:28.920 including both husbands and wives,
00:44:30.920 were in the covenant whether they believed or not.
00:44:33.760 There is no reason revealed to do this.
00:44:36.280 And so what they're saying is that if the Pado-Baptists say that sprinkling baptism for infants 0.99
00:44:41.960 is a sign of the New Covenant,
00:44:44.840 it is a reflection of what God did through circumcision in the Old Testament,
00:44:49.620 then why don't we also apply that to unbelieving adults in the household of,
00:44:55.980 say, a believing father in the way that God did in the Old Testament with circumcision?
00:45:02.460 The Old Testament included everyone in a household for circumcision,
00:45:05.480 but Pado-Baptists don't always baptize all household members,
00:45:08.640 which seems inconsistent since they use the Old Testament to justify infant baptism.
00:45:13.680 They argue Pado-Baptists see infants as part of the covenant community, 0.98
00:45:17.020 but this view doesn't fully match New Testament teachings about Jesus' role,
00:45:21.540 which stress faith, not infant inclusion, as the way to receive God's promises.
00:45:27.160 Galatians 3.7 says this,
00:45:29.920 Know that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
00:45:35.520 Colossians 2.11-12
00:45:37.000 They argue that these passages show the New Testament calls sons of Abraham those who believe,
00:45:59.780 not just physical descendants' baptism replaces circumcision through a person's faith,
00:46:04.940 not through baptizing babies,
00:46:06.860 challenging the idea that Old Testament circumcision supports infant baptism.
00:46:12.420 Okay, so that is the Credo-Baptist position.
00:46:15.840 That is the position that I hold to,
00:46:17.440 simply because that is the example that we see in the Old Testament.
00:46:20.480 I believe that at best, the Pado-Baptist position is an argument from absence and implication and assumptions.
00:46:29.680 Now, I am not against using deductive reasoning to come to a biblical principle.
00:46:34.660 For example, we have come up with the word Trinity based on what we see in Scripture
00:46:41.100 explained about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
00:46:45.000 even though we don't actually see the word Trinity in Scripture.
00:46:49.180 But when it comes to a practice, especially a practice when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church
00:46:55.260 that you're saying confers some sort of salvation,
00:46:58.800 it's really important that we understand where it's coming from.
00:47:02.320 What is the biblical basis for this?
00:47:04.280 It's not enough to say that the early church did this,
00:47:07.840 because not everyone in the early church did this.
00:47:10.160 The only infallible and inerrant authority we have on what the early church was like
00:47:15.840 is the Bible itself.
00:47:17.240 And it seems to me, when we look at the Greek word actually used for baptism,
00:47:23.280 when we look at the context of even the descriptions of households being baptized,
00:47:28.580 that this was immersion baptism for those who confessed faith in Christ.
00:47:35.180 And so the argument that, well, there were early church fathers who believed this,
00:47:41.640 there were even reformers who believed this, there were early Christians who believed this,
00:47:46.120 well, we can see in Paul's letters to the early church that Christians get things wrong, 0.50
00:47:52.260 and they need correction, and they need rebuke, and they need reformation,
00:47:56.720 to remember what was actually taught by Christ, the example that we learned in him.
00:48:03.080 And thankfully, God has divinely inspired the word of God to give us the best and most trustworthy
00:48:09.960 guidebook.
00:48:11.520 Now, do I believe that this is a salvation issue?
00:48:15.960 If you believe in infant baptism, I believe in credo baptism, but we both believe in the
00:48:22.500 true gospel that we are only saved by grace through faith in Jesus, no, I think that we're
00:48:27.760 both going to be in heaven.
00:48:29.500 However, it is very clear that baptism for believers, when we are going to making disciples
00:48:36.260 of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
00:48:40.740 that is a command for believers, that that's not optional.
00:48:44.900 And so I remember when I had this back and forth before about what baptism actually means,
00:48:50.480 and I know this is a really big sticking point when I'm debating and discussing with Catholics, 0.94
00:48:57.500 that it cheapens baptism if something is just a symbol.
00:49:01.440 If it's just a symbol, then why doesn't it matter?
00:49:03.540 Well, there are a lot of things that are just a symbol that matter.
00:49:06.800 This wedding ring that I am wearing right now, it is just a symbol, but it carries significance.
00:49:13.160 It is an outward sign of a covenant that my husband and I have made to each other.
00:49:18.880 Now, if I take off this ring, I am still married because the covenant goes beyond this ring, but
00:49:25.540 this is an important signifier, an important symbol of a deeper reality.
00:49:31.100 And that's not even a perfect comparison because baptism is actually something that is required
00:49:39.740 by Jesus, is necessary.
00:49:41.660 However, it is not what saves us, because that would be to say that we could earn our salvation
00:49:47.400 in some way that is, there is a work of righteousness that we must do to be reconciled to God.
00:49:53.320 And Jesus has done all that work on our behalf.
00:49:58.140 It is a free gift, as we read in Ephesians 2.
00:50:02.080 All right.
00:50:02.760 So that is just kind of skimming the surface of this debate on pedo-baptism versus credo-baptism.
00:50:09.340 I welcome all of your thoughts.
00:50:11.820 Please have respectful dialogue and debate over this.
00:50:15.340 It's an important subject, and we should be discussing it and asking our pastors about
00:50:21.700 this and trying to understand it better, but it is no reason for vitriol and for hatred.
00:50:28.720 All right.
00:50:29.020 Let me tell you about our last sponsor for the day, and that is Fellowship Home Loans.
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00:50:56.860 I have heard from some of you who have worked with them at Fellowship Home Loans, and they
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00:51:12.520 Another said that his home wasn't enough, and he was anxious about this.
00:51:16.520 He didn't know what to do, but Fellowship Home Loans, he heard about them on this show.
00:51:21.740 He prayed about it.
00:51:22.480 He decided to call, and within a week, not only was his loan approved, but Fellowship
00:51:27.480 Home Loans helped him pay off his first mortgage, his second mortgage, and all of his debt.
00:51:32.460 I mean, that is life-changing right there.
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00:52:02.220 All right, guys, if you've got more suggestions for topics that we should cover on our Theology
00:52:08.960 and Topical Wednesday, please send those to me.
00:52:12.160 Y'all have sent some really good ones, and we are going to dive into those over the next
00:52:17.540 few weeks.
00:52:18.220 If you've got any spicy topics, like I said on Instagram, though, if you suggest something
00:52:23.100 that I've talked about a lot, then I'm going to fine you.
00:52:27.520 I don't remember how much I said.
00:52:28.820 I said, I think I said like $638.7.43.
00:52:33.100 I'm going to fine you, and you're going to get a bill in the mail because you did not do
00:52:36.860 your due diligence.
00:52:38.360 If you ever want to know if I've talked about something, you can type in either on YouTube.
00:52:42.820 I think it works a little bit better on Apple Podcasts.
00:52:46.140 You can type in the subject that you're looking for and relatable, and it should come up.
00:52:49.940 On YouTube, you might have to be more specific and type in Ali Stuckey or a guest that you're
00:52:55.060 looking for.
00:52:55.880 I've probably talked about the thing that you are looking for, but if I have someone say,
00:53:01.000 oh, you should talk about Israel and dispensational versus covenant theology, I'm going to bop you 0.69
00:53:06.460 on the head, and I'm going to fine you $6,000, okay?
00:53:09.760 But if you've done your due diligence and you still want me to cover something that either
00:53:14.200 I haven't covered in a long time, haven't covered very much, or I have never covered, then
00:53:18.720 please send your suggestions.
00:53:20.380 That'd be great.
00:53:21.560 All right.
00:53:21.820 One more thing, blazetv.com slash Ali has an awesome deal going in celebration of the 4th
00:53:28.680 of July to celebrate true No King's Day.
00:53:32.360 You can go to blazetv.com slash Ali, and you will get a seven-day free trial for Blaze TV.
00:53:40.360 You get access to all of our Behind the Paywall subscriber-only stuff.
00:53:43.580 blazetv.com slash Ali for that seven-day trial, blazetv.com slash Ali.
00:53:49.100 All right, guys.
00:53:50.100 That's all we've got time for today.
00:53:51.580 We will not be back here on Friday because it's the 4th of July.
00:53:54.540 We will be back here on Monday.
00:53:55.920 Bye.
00:53:56.040 Bye.
00:53:56.120 Bye.
00:53:56.540 Bye.
00:53:57.040 Bye.
00:53:57.540 Bye.
00:53:58.040 Bye.
00:53:58.540 Bye.
00:53:59.040 Bye.
00:53:59.540 Bye.
00:54:00.040 Bye.
00:54:00.540 Bye.
00:54:01.540 Bye.
00:54:02.040 Bye.
00:54:02.540 Bye.
00:54:03.540 Bye.
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00:54:07.540 Bye.
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00:54:09.540 Bye.
00:54:10.540 Bye.
00:54:11.540 Bye.
00:54:12.540 Bye.
00:54:13.580 Bye.
00:54:15.540 Bye.
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00:54:42.540 Bye.