Ep 1216 ｜ Can Catholics Claim the One True Church？ ｜ Lila Rose
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 6 minutes
Words per Minute
203.27248
Summary
Is the Catholic Church the church Jesus established 2,000 years ago? My good friend Lila Rose and I are debating this and much more about Catholic and Protestant doctrine today. First, we are getting into the joys and challenges of motherhood, how we know as Christians when to stop having children, and a great and very full discussion on today s episode of Relatable. It s brought to you by GoodRanchers.
Transcript
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Is the Catholic Church the church Jesus established 2,000 years ago?
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My good friend Lila Rose of Live Action and I are debating this and much more about Catholic
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and Protestant doctrine today, but first we are getting into the joys and the challenges
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of motherhood, how we know as Christians when to stop having children.
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This is a great and very full discussion and a lively debate on today's episode of Relatable.
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It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Go to GoodRanchers.com, code Allie at checkout.
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What's your favorite thing about motherhood right now?
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I just, my daughter, our youngest Gigi is 14 months old.
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She's too, she's wearing two teeth and she's so sweet.
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And so it's just the oxytocin that I get from just holding her and cuddling her and just seeing
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There's nothing more joyful when I wake up in the morning than seeing my daughter.
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So it's just, I literally, I wake up every day and I pinch myself that I get to be their
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And then your daughter looks completely different.
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Everyone's like, we're asking about their coloring and saying like, where did these kids
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Although we saw our, we saw my brother and his sister and his wife, my sister-in-law,
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and their youngest has the same coloring, strangely, as my boys.
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I don't get a lot of like, your kids look just like you.
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I thought that my, um, jeans would be dominant because my, I look like my mom and my mom's
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jeans are so dominant and my jeans didn't put up that much of a fight.
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Well, I think you and, like you and Timothy have similar coloring.
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You can see both, you can see both of you and the girls.
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One thing that you learned going from two kids to three kids, and then one thing you learned
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I'll start with the boy mom to girl mom because that's easier.
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And I know, I know there's like a spectrum, of course, of how kids are and because of
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their personalities and temperaments, but she is so, she, the way that she emotionally
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responds to things, everything's a bigger deal.
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And she's just a, like a 14 month, but different than her brothers were.
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It's like she's, she kind of has this, she has little bits that she does with the people
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Again, it's spunky personality, but there's also something very girly about it.
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She goes for the, she's very like careful with the toy and gentle.
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The boys, it's about destruction and building and conquering and climbing.
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I mean, she still wants to climb and build and do things, but you see already.
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And again, not every girl, but my girl, definitely.
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There's just girly, girly stuff that she's into.
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Just the beautiful differences that are already emerging.
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That just like innate differences between boys and girls.
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I was asking Timothy the other day, cause our, our youngest is, you kind of like start
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So I don't know, 21 months maybe, but she points out every baby that she sees baby, baby,
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I'm like, that kid's bigger than you, but like everything is a baby that's small.
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And I'm like, I'm wondering if we had a boy this age, would a boy be pointing out
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Which my kids are not interested in that at all.
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A boy mom asked me the other day, cause like where we're staying is right by a train.
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And they were like, oh, I bet your kids think that's so cool during the day when they see
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No, my boys still love babies and they love little kids and they're very tender, but it's
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Again, not every child is going to be the same as every other child, but it is, there is
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largely speaking, generally speaking, there's differences and they're beautiful.
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So what do you do to help your kids get their energy out?
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Because two boys especially have a ton of energy and they need to be active in all of
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We wander around the backyard and just like go in circles.
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We actually took the cars out of the garage and they just ride the bikes in the garage
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if I need them more contained and they'll just go in circles and circles and circles.
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Uh, they wrestle with super, try to like supervise from at least a distance, but it's hard.
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There's complete chaos and that's usually dinner hour.
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So I haven't really figured out exactly how to do it because it does just get crazy.
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My mother had eight kids and she had to do it, you know, do that.
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And she had almost no help, you know, and I'm blessed with much more help than she
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I guess you're, you're, you have girls, so maybe they're not as crazy.
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But they still, you know, it's like, they're still kids.
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And so they still have the energy and they, at the end of the day is when you start hearing
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And we try to push off screens as long as possible.
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We don't do iPads or tablets or anything like that.
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But for TV, we do let them watch TV sometimes, but we try to push it towards the very end of the
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So it's limited to like when we're trying to get dinner ready and all of that.
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But even that, like if I can get them to go outside or to start doing something, I prefer
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It might be more prevalent in the, in the South.
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It's a tree, but it's not really like a good climbing tree.
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It's like very flimsy, but my oldest started climbing in it because she found a bird's
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nest and she was so excited about this bird's nest and it was occupying so much of her time.
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And she started trying to find worms and bugs and putting it in the bird's nest.
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And the mama bird would come back and all of that stuff.
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Of course, the mama bird was like not excited about my, like a six-year-old being up there.
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And my six-year-old accidentally knocked one of the eggs out and it splattered on the ground.
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Well, we did talk about that, but it was also like, well, it's kind of my fault.
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Even though we did talk about the risk of it, but also like, it's good to be sad.
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We care about animals, but also people matter more than animals.
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And so, yeah, I just think there's like a lot of lessons to be learned when we do try
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to like get our kids to push past boredom, which I'm not perfect at at all.
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All of the little adventures that they go on, like contain so many, so many different lessons,
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but that does require like more energy and patience from me, which I don't like, you know,
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I've actually, that's something I've been noticing more is intentionally letting them
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And, and if there's even a little bit of a squabble, letting them figure it out.
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Now, obviously if someone's getting injured, go and check in.
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I'm more talking about the older boys, the three and the five-year-old, but if they're
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in the backyard and I hear a squabble, see if they can resolve it.
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And they come up with the most interesting little, you know, they'll color pages and put
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up signs, like tape signs on the wall, like do not pass or, you know, just coming
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up with random stuff, but they entertain themselves.
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They learn to play without me having to get in there and having to direct every step.
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I think we, as modern parents, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to hyper plan for
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our kids, how to engage them, how to entertain them, how to, yes, educate them.
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But free play, I grew up just spending most of my time running around our backyard with
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And my mother would be taking care of the younger kids or doing other things in the house for
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But it was so wonderful because our imaginations could kind of rule the day instead of having
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Remind me where you fall in line with your siblings?
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And you have, do you have older sisters or were you the first girl?
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What was it like growing up with that many siblings?
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So I was kind of like an only child in some ways.
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So you're kind of like an only, in a way, an only child.
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So I'm curious like what the experience is like with so many close siblings.
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It was, it makes me want to cry thinking about it.
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It was awesome to have brothers and sisters to play with.
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There were certainly elements that my parents were like, I wish we'd have done this better
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because there is a lot of little souls to, to, to raise.
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We got to learn so much about dealing with different temperaments and different kinds
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of people and different interests and different desires.
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I mean, it's, it's really a school, a school of human formation to have to deal with all
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If you're able to have a big family, you know, God willing, I highly recommend people.
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When, when I was talking to a couple recently and they said, oh yeah, we, we have three.
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And, and I said, well, what do you mean you're not sure about four?
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Well, you know, it's just, you know, it's nice to be out of diapers, whatever.
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But I just think about the gift that a sibling is to another sibling.
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Just how irreplaceable every, all seven of my siblings, they are irreplaceable to me.
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And imagine life without even just one of them is so sad.
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How do you think you decide, and maybe this is where Catholic teaching speaks into this,
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What factors do you think are legitimate to consider?
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So the Catholic teaching on it is, and I was raised Protestant, so my family wasn't even
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And they got judged for it, actually, because they just felt this sense of saying yes to
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God's generosity of, if God gives us blesses us with children, we're going to just accept
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They just had a visceral ick response to contraception.
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But how do we know when- How do you know when you're done?
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So I think for Christians, I believe we should always be open to life in the sense that we
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And if it does, we're going to embrace that child, right?
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We get to decide when to have sex when we're married, right?
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And so there's that natural built-in, okay, we're going to delay or not have children at
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this time because of some serious issue, or you have your fertility window.
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We're not going to be intimate during this fertility window because we want to space children
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And so the Catholic teaching says that that's okay to do fertility awareness method or natural
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It shouldn't be like, oh, I want to go on 10 more vacations and I don't want to be bothered
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with kids because the crown of marriage is a child, right?
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And that's really the point of marriage is sanctity for the spouses and then to bring up
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I mean, to be generous with God and open to life, it's not necessarily an easy thing.
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But other people are like, this is really hard for me.
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So with Catholic teaching, it's not so much about are we done yet and more about discerning,
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okay, is there a reason, a significant reason to pause on having children at this time?
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If we do conceive, of course, we're going to be open to them.
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But we're going to either use fertility awareness to space the child or to delay the, you know,
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getting pregnant, or they can choose to abstain, obviously, but they can just not have sex during
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Now, some couples, maybe they have, you know, four or five kids and they say there's some
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significant health issues in the family, right?
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There's a significant economic issue in the family.
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And they can say, okay, we're going to pause, maybe even indefinitely.
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And that might be done in a way, because maybe by the time they're able to start again,
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So in that sense, you can be done in the sense that you can say, well, this is not a good
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Like that, I don't think that's a Christian posture.
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Separate from Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, I just think the Christian posture is children are
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You want many arrows, you know, gifts from God.
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This idea of two to three kids is a very, and I know both of us have three kids, so
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we're only halfway, you know, we're only starting.
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But this idea of just one, two, three kids is a very modern idea.
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We've been talking about, and I haven't talked about this publicly, but my husband and I,
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we've been talking about, you know, having more kids and the difficulty that we have.
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I just am wrestling with whether this is like not trusting God and I'm being fearful or whether
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And, you know, Timothy and I are praying about this and talking about this.
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But all of my births and postpartum have been really hard.
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I had two C-sections and then I had a vaginal birth.
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I'm so thankful that I got to experience both actually, um, because it's given me just
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like a lot of understanding and appreciation for all of that.
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But they've been tough, like very painful, very difficult.
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I won't get into like graphic things, but just hard and emotionally because of the physical
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And there's a part of me that's like, I'm scared, you know, I'm scared to do that again.
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And I'm scared that I won't be able to be fully present for my kids for an extended period of
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It's just a question about at what point can you weigh those factors and say, it would be wise
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Or are you saying, you know what, I trust you, God, I trust you with my body.
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I trust, you know, you with my recovery and it is going to be difficult, but like, you know,
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we know that a child is a blessing and I don't know if there's a hard and fast answer to that.
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I do think it takes prayer and discernment, but I also just want to say, I relate to those out
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there who are, you know, wrestling with those very real thoughts and fears.
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And like you said, you've had these very, very tough pregnancies and deliveries and other
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women, they have other health conditions and it's, it's tough.
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I think a foundational principle for us as Christians, right, is like you just said so beautifully
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And then I think another piece of it too is generosity where yes, you want to be prudent.
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So if there's some, you know, significant reason or there's obviously some kind of a health
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crisis, that's, you know, maybe a pause moment.
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Um, it's, it's not a required pause moment by the way, but it may be a pause moment, but
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I think the generosity piece is so, uh, important and it, and it's tricky because well, how generous
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You know, in today's world, three is already generous compared to, you know, other, other
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So I think praying about it and just asking God, you know, give me, give me, if this is,
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uh, for, for you, you know, from you, I want more confidence, maybe more peace.
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Cause it sounds like that fear of what you've been through is, is holding you, you know,
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It's a heavy thing weighing on you, understandably.
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And it's kind of true in all decision-making that we have as Christians when you're not
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choosing between sin and the right thing to do, you're not necessarily choosing between
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And that takes like a lot of fine tuning discernment and a lot of Holy spirit.
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Cause I might not open the Bible and have my exact verse for my exact situation.
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And that is a beautiful thing about marriage too is, and a beautiful thing about being a
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wife is that when I don't know what to do, I can always pray that God would lead Timothy
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And it's great that that is like a mantle that he holds that I don't ultimately hold
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My mom always says like, she always wanted one more.
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And my dad, after every child was like, no, we're done.
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And every time my mom prayed, okay, God, I want another baby, but it has to be his idea.
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And so she says it was always the timing that my dad would just one day turn around after
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saying, I don't want any more kids and say, we should have another baby.
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And so I'm not saying that's everyone's situation, but I think for us women too, kind
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of like releasing that and remembering that our husband is like, is the leader in our family.
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Then God speaks through obviously the natural order of, of the husband in the home.
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I think the other element that's really peace giving is, you know, I see, you know, as
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you know, I'm Catholic and contraception, the teaching there is that anything that frustrates
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the procreative and the unitive in a sexual act is wrong.
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So sex is designed to bring two people together incredibly intimately.
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And it's designed to bring life into the world.
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Not every sexual act can bring life into the world because you're not always fertile as
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You know, we know this of course, but if you intentionally during your fertility period are
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using contraception to separate the procreative and the unitive, then you're frustrating
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And so that's the beauty of natural family planning or fertility awareness methods is you can space
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pregnancies, you can delay, uh, potentially getting pregnant if there's a significant
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And you do that using the natural rhythms of the body as opposed to this artificial contraception.
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So I think that also gives a lot of freedom for Christian families to say, okay, we don't
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do contraception like the culture does, but we do use fertility awareness and make those
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best judgments about when to maybe pursue having a child or when to, uh, you know, intentionally
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like we want to have a child, we're going to make sure we're having, you know, an intimate
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There's still the posture of openness to life that, cause, cause keep in mind every time
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a life comes into existence, that's God's work.
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And so there's a beautiful confidence in that, that there's no life that comes to us by accident.
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And that, I think my parents, I know that was their posture again, they were Protestants.
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Their posture was like, these are from, these children are from God.
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So we're just going to say yes to, yes to whatever God may give.
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Something I've gotten a lot, and you've probably gotten this too, when it comes to IVF, um,
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And therefore, even though scientists and doctors are bringing together the sperm and the embryo,
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it always has to be God who gives the spark of life.
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Um, and so I think I know what your response would be, but what would you say?
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And it is true that those are precious human beings made in God's image.
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Like if we have technologies to manipulate life, to create life in a test tube, God respects
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And he, he is allowing it just like, and not to say that IVF is like rape because they're
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obviously very different, but in a, in a situation of sex outside of marriage or sexual assault
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or any other situation that there's immoral acts taking place, right?
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That's still God, you know, in that life, bringing that life into the world.
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But the act that brought that life into existence, that was, that was not the moral act.
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So the act that brings life into existence can be immoral, but the bringing of the life
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And I think that's the distinction that a lot of people maybe philosophically aren't,
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In IVF, you are taking life out of the natural order where children deserve to be conceived
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And there's a lot of protective mechanisms in God's providence for that child.
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If they're conceived that way, we know those protective elements just on its face, looking
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at the fact that, as you've talked about many times, a million babies frozen in IVF
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The levels of risk for them are so high and the destruction is so high.
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The natural order is much more designed for their safety and their nourishing.
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But that doesn't mean that we are endorsing every method of making a baby.
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And that's why I really get frustrated with what I kind of think is a form of emotional
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manipulation when we talk about the ethics or the lack of ethics in IVF.
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And then we get, well, you're saying that my baby shouldn't be here.
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And I understand for someone who has conceived their children through IVF, you're looking in
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They're an image bearer of God to separate that child from the means by which you had
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I've seen people do it though, because God can work in your heart and allow you to do
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And I just wish there were a little bit more of an honest conversation between those who are
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Can we at least acknowledge that we're not demonizing the people who are created?
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But it turns into that very quickly, which makes the debate and discussion difficult,
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even among professing Christians, which is really like my biggest frustration.
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I know the Catholic Church itself has been really clear on this, and that's something I'm very
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Their stance on IVF, their stance on procreation.
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But I imagine, I don't know the numbers on it, I imagine there are a lot of professing
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Catholics who aren't against it, who might not know the church's teachings, I guess,
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Do you find that as you're talking in Catholic circles that some Catholics just like, they
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There's definitely a lot of Catholics who are not catechized.
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Because I think in the Catholic space, particularly, there is this passing on of the sacraments,
00:26:08.120
right, that Catholic parents will give to their children typically, right?
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But if they're not including a deeper understanding of those sacraments they're receiving and the
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faith that they're being given, right, then they might be doing the motions of that.
00:26:24.940
Baptism is still baptism, even if I didn't understand what was happening when I was baptized.
00:26:29.680
But I may myself not be able to correspond to the graces that God wants to give me to
00:26:35.680
So that's the piece that is the state of American Catholicism today, is that there's a lot of
00:26:42.040
They don't even believe in the true presence, the real presence in the Eucharist.
00:26:46.000
They don't understand the church's teaching on contraception or sex.
00:26:49.840
And there's a lot of good intentions, but there's a lot of confusion.
00:26:53.120
And that exists in the Protestant community too, but I can particularly speak to it in the
00:26:57.340
Catholic world because the teachings are so clear, you know?
00:27:00.480
You can open the catechism, you can read, you know, encyclicals, you can obviously go to
00:27:06.560
And what's beautiful about, you know, I'm so grateful as a Catholic is, you know, people
00:27:10.360
say, well, the Pope, you know, he has his issues.
00:27:12.160
Well, of course, he is himself an imperfect man.
00:27:15.240
But when he's speaking in authority as the head of the church, speaking for the church in
00:27:20.920
matters of faith and morals, and this is magisterial doctrine.
00:27:23.560
And then we can understand how to interpret things like IVF as an example, you know, things
00:27:29.440
like, you know, human cloning, all of these technologies that are coming down the pike.
00:27:34.760
Obviously the word IVF is not in Holy Scripture, right?
00:27:38.440
A lot of the word contraception specifically, there's a lot of words, even the word Trinity
00:27:43.700
So how do we take Holy Scripture, the early traditions of the early Christians and understand
00:27:55.400
I just think it's not clear to enough Catholics.
00:27:59.640
Is it possible for the Pope speaking out of authority, not just sending like a tweet or
00:28:04.740
something, but speaking out of authority, is it possible for him to be wrong in, in accordance
00:28:11.080
Not when he is speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals.
00:28:22.060
So it has to be a directive for, this is for all, this is binding for all Christians.
00:28:29.480
And these are very formal, beautifully written.
00:28:33.320
But they're these beautifully written, like Humanae Vitae is an example, condemning abortion
00:28:38.740
And it really makes the philosophical case for it, it makes the theological case for it.
00:28:43.420
And there are these like rich documents that are just carefully articulated.
00:28:47.440
I mean, every letter is carefully articulated because it's binding for Mother Church, not
00:28:55.880
There's not like endless encyclicals, but you're going to get maybe a few in, in any given
00:29:11.480
And you might be thinking, isn't Every Diaper Company pro-life?
00:29:19.900
A lot of major diaper companies actually donate your dollars to pro-abortion politicians and
00:29:27.800
You want to get your diapers and your baby supplies, like their awesome shampoo and body
00:29:33.320
wash and baby lotion from a company that you know is unapologetically pro-life.
00:29:38.980
They are supporting pro-life causes organizations.
00:29:42.540
Right now, they're sending diapers and wipes to affected areas in Texas after the floods.
00:29:47.820
They're supporting all of their pregnant and adopting employees.
00:29:55.220
I would not be using Every Life diapers if they didn't work.
00:30:09.740
Also, they have amazing lotion and body wash that is tear-free, dermatologist tested, all
00:30:31.500
And it's not supposed to be antagonistic, but it goes on based on something you just said
00:30:40.320
And as a Protestant, I'm sure that you get a lot of messages and comments from Protestants
00:30:49.380
And so sometimes when I talk about my Protestant beliefs, people will be like, why do you feel
00:30:55.900
I'm like, I get so many messages, some of them from totally well-meaning Catholics who
00:31:01.280
are just devout Catholics, and they love me, and they want me to know what Catholic doctrine
00:31:07.500
Yes, and we have like a great – and then sometimes, as I'm sure you get from the evangelical
00:31:11.460
side, sometimes they're super antagonistic and rude and like, you know, not persuasive.
00:31:17.060
And I'm not saying that's indicative of Catholics.
00:31:19.440
That just happens to be indicative of some online discourse.
00:31:22.800
But something that I hear a lot is that the church has always been so clear on this and – or
00:31:29.200
X, Y, Z, whatever it is – and Protestantism has given way to division.
00:31:35.560
And the Catholic Church is unified, but Protestantism, the fruit of it is this dissension and all
00:31:43.220
And yet, when you look at statistically what professing Catholics say they believe and what
00:31:50.540
professing Protestants say they believe, it seems to me, if we are to believe a Pew Research
00:31:56.460
or something like that, that Protestants, when it comes to things like abortion, when it comes
00:32:01.620
to things like homosexuality, statistically, we're a lot more united on – this is what
00:32:06.860
the Bible says, homosexuality is a sin, abortion is a sin, and should be illegal, not just here,
00:32:14.000
Whereas, it's like 68% of Catholics, according to Pew Research, people who call themselves Catholics.
00:32:25.420
And so my question is, if, like, the Catholic Church is a bastion of unity, why are professing
00:32:31.800
Catholics so disunified when it comes to these really big moral theological issues?
00:32:40.080
It was like – I'll have to look it up – a huge – it was like 70% of Catholics believe
00:32:44.340
that non-Christians can go to heaven, according to Pew Research.
00:32:49.640
Well, let's set that one aside for a minute, because it's like, what do you mean by a non-Christian
00:32:54.340
Because God can do whatever He wants, because He's God.
00:33:01.280
So could there be someone at the moment of death that Jesus appears to them, you know,
00:33:04.820
and they're given the opportunity to say yes to God and His love?
00:33:09.680
So in that sense, it's a non-Christian in our view.
00:33:11.800
Oh, see, I would call that – I would call them a Christian.
00:33:19.320
So I think these – again, these words might mean even different things to people and might
00:33:25.260
But listen, I would have to look at that particular study.
00:33:28.580
I do know for a fact, I would agree with you, that especially if it's a Catholic in name
00:33:32.200
only, kind of like the Easter Catholic, the Christmas Catholic, they're not a daily – certainly
00:33:36.780
not a daily Mass Catholic, and they're not a weekly Mass Catholic, right?
00:33:39.680
This is not something that is – you know, they don't even understand the first thing
00:33:43.000
of, oh, if it missed Mass on a Sunday, unless of some significant reason or illness, that's
00:33:51.700
Or if you do that, you go to confession afterwards.
00:33:54.020
Those Catholics, I would guess – I don't know the study that you looked at.
00:33:58.220
Based on my experience and the research I've seen, they're going to be pretty pro-life
00:34:02.700
and pretty down the line on – largely speaking on sexual ethics.
00:34:06.360
There's still going to be confusion even on contraception and IVF, things of this nature.
00:34:10.400
But I think that cohort, they're doing the weekly gathering as God is commanded of worship
00:34:18.720
So I think it would depend on the groups we're comparing, quite frankly, because I do know
00:34:22.560
the idea of I'm a believer, I'm a Christian, or I'm an evangelical can be very watered down
00:34:28.800
here in the United States and globally in terms of what that means with morality, right?
00:34:34.320
I think what matters is not so much – I think two things matter.
00:34:41.380
What does the teaching say about matters of faith and morals, and is it true or not, right?
00:34:46.160
Is what the Catholic Church is saying true or not?
00:34:50.520
Like you're saying, the fruit does matter, but you have to look at the full picture of
00:34:54.820
And for the Catholic Church, we look at 2,000 years of Christendom, and we look at the
00:35:01.160
Which, of course, Protestants would dispute because we don't believe that the Catholic
00:35:03.900
Church was established by Jesus 2,000 years ago.
00:35:06.360
I know that's what Catholic teaching teaches, but Protestants don't believe that.
00:35:11.740
We believe that Jesus created the global church, and he created Christians.
00:35:16.180
And when he says to Peter, on this rock, I will build my church, we don't believe that
00:35:22.040
And when we look at – like I hear Catholics say a lot that we are worshiping how the earliest
00:35:28.020
Christians worshiped, and this is historic Christianity, but the only infallible, inerrant,
00:35:34.260
and totally authoritative record of the early church that we have is the Bible.
00:35:45.280
But it's only inerrant because there was a church council that came together to declare
00:35:51.240
It's inerrant because the Holy Spirit inspired it.
00:35:55.000
And I don't think that all Protestants would dispute everything that Catholic councils have
00:36:03.960
But we would say, okay, if we look at Acts, if we look at the epistles, do we see Roman
00:36:12.480
Like is there mention of a pontiff of Rome or a vicar of Christ?
00:36:15.760
Is there a mention of like praying to Mary or praying to the saints?
00:36:20.880
There's – to me, I see – I see zero implication of those things at all.
00:36:25.760
There is no command to pray or to venerate or honor Mary at all.
00:36:30.440
There is no talk of Peter being the head of the church.
00:36:34.660
And so I don't see a reflection of Roman Catholic doctrine and worship in the earliest record of
00:36:43.100
how the early Christians worshipped in Acts and the epistles.
00:36:47.700
So when I hear it's 2,000 years old, like, well, then why don't we see that in the Bible?
00:36:53.180
Well, I would argue that we do see it in the Bible.
00:36:55.360
And you do see Peter taking on teaching authority in the Bible in Acts.
00:36:59.280
And you do see there – if you look at the early church's history, right?
00:37:03.520
And it's not captured in Holy Scripture because Holy Scripture, I think it ends as it – I don't
00:37:13.520
So there's a whole world of Christianity that happens after the canon of the Bible
00:37:19.740
Now, it wasn't established for a few hundred years after that, right, in terms of this
00:37:24.580
But there's a whole world, and there's a lot of documents and writings from the church
00:37:29.040
fathers, which are so rich, where you learn about how they applied what that early church
00:37:33.520
was doing just a decade after Christ or two decades after Christ when St. Paul's traveling
00:37:37.520
around and preaching at people, where you not just see what they were doing in just a few
00:37:42.040
decades after Christ, but then what they were doing a hundred years after Christ and two
00:37:45.180
hundred years after Christ, and how they passed on the traditions that were established by Jesus
00:37:51.600
Now, a tradition that's established in first century Roman Empire, right, will inherently
00:38:00.440
have a different context in 21st century America, of course.
00:38:07.960
So, for example, Eucharist, this is my bread, this is my body, this is my blood given for
00:38:11.660
you, eat and drink, right, and coming together in the breaking of the bread, which is talked
00:38:17.220
Or the fact that they would do preaching, right, as the liturgy of the word, often in the synagogues
00:38:25.680
And then they would unascend it, and then they would do the breaking of the bread privately
00:38:30.460
because that was more controversial, and that was the Christian element, the preaching of
00:38:34.760
the word could be more what had been done in the synagogue historically.
00:38:39.780
It's the liturgy of the word, and it's the liturgy of the Eucharist.
00:38:42.180
It's going to look different in a 21st century American church than it looked in a synagogue
00:38:45.740
and a house church or a home, a private family home, back in the time of the early, early
00:38:52.440
And then you have the Christians going underground with Roman persecution, and you have the Christianity
00:38:58.520
spreading globally and how it's now taken a new life in all these different cultures
00:39:03.300
and continents, but you have core elements that remain the same.
00:39:07.940
And those core elements are Eucharist, their baptism, their confession, their confirmation,
00:39:15.680
Dunking baptism is what Jesus did and what we see throughout Scripture.
00:39:22.860
So you're saying you don't think the Catholics baptize their babies actually?
00:39:27.460
I think the model of baptism that we see in the New Testament is dunking baptism after
00:39:41.020
You need to – you're not putting the baby underneath the water in baptism.
00:39:48.520
And so I'm saying that the New Testament doesn't support the idea of sprinkling babies.
00:39:53.680
That's what the – I mean, most Protestants believe.
00:39:56.760
I think even Presbyterians, my Presbyterian friends can correct me because they do baby
00:40:02.620
But they – I think they have different beliefs about what that baby baptism actually represents
00:40:14.360
After you believe in your heart, confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, you
00:40:17.920
probably even go through like a new Christians class just to make sure you really understand
00:40:23.580
And then we see it as an outward symbol of an inward regeneration.
00:40:28.840
And we believe that that's what we see throughout Scripture, that baptism always followed belief
00:40:34.560
and that Jesus gives us his example of baptism in actually being abducted.
00:40:39.300
But it followed the belief of adults, you're right, and the heads of households.
00:40:44.200
In Acts, there is Scripture that talks about the whole household being baptized after the
00:40:52.240
I think the safe assumption is that probably the whole household believed.
00:40:56.500
But if you're a child, you wouldn't be excluded.
00:40:58.600
Jesus said so many times, let the little ones come unto me.
00:41:05.980
It's not biblical to say that the children were excluded from baptism.
00:41:09.300
But you're saying that the child, if they can't physically profess the words of Jesus and
00:41:14.060
have this belief, whatever that means exactly, for a little child, then they can't be baptized.
00:41:20.560
That is the Baptist position, that baptism should always follow belief.
00:41:27.680
But no, we don't – I mean, we just don't believe in baby baptism.
00:41:30.920
And I don't think we see a clear example of that in Scripture.
00:41:32.980
Well, I think it is pretty clear in the teachings of Jesus about children and in the
00:41:37.760
And there's no note about excluding the babies.
00:41:43.220
That's an assumption that there's a baby and they're baptized.
00:41:49.560
But typically whole households are going to inevitably involve some children, very young
00:41:57.780
But then you look at just the traditions of the early Christians.
00:42:02.540
You don't have to call them Catholics in this moment if you're not comfortable with
00:42:12.480
And you said, well, the household didn't explicitly say baby.
00:42:16.520
But I'm saying, well, if you look at how they practiced baptism in the early church,
00:42:25.260
I don't disbelieve that necessarily because there's a lot of things that the early church
00:42:28.740
practiced that we don't necessarily practice today and shouldn't practice today.
00:42:41.480
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00:43:47.240
When do you think that—you're saying the Catholic Church was not founded with Jesus
00:43:56.060
I know that—and you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm sure that you know more
00:44:02.120
But from my understanding, the establishment of the official papacy was really kind of rallied
00:44:10.540
Like, would you say Gregory I—I know that you probably wouldn't say that he was the
00:44:14.380
first pope, because I know Catholics assert that Peter was the first pope.
00:44:18.160
But if I remember correctly, there was something significant about Gregory I being like a singular
00:44:26.380
Because before that, there was debate over how many popes and which pope was what and what
00:44:34.080
So it seems like authority solidified, at least, if I can say it more generously or charitably,
00:44:43.200
I would say more that the bishop of Rome was given a special deference.
00:44:47.700
And there was debate later on, especially with orthodoxy and Catholicism, about, okay,
00:44:52.420
well, who gets—who's kind of the final say amongst the bishops?
00:44:55.680
Or who's the—you could say the tiebreaker of sorts?
00:44:57.680
Or who's going to—where does it—you could say the word solidify the authority over where
00:45:03.160
And the bishop of Rome, you know, the Holy See, Peter, is where—you know, the pope is where
00:45:08.540
And so there was definitely, at a certain point, debate about that, especially when you
00:45:24.900
But I think that Jesus didn't create his church to leave her without authority and without
00:45:32.540
Because he said, the gates of hell will not prevail.
00:45:34.200
And, you know, he said, well, that's not necessarily to popes, but he did intend for
00:45:39.860
He did intend for there to be one breaking of the bread.
00:45:42.700
And I think right now, you go globally to any Catholic church, and you're going to see
00:45:47.360
You're going to see different cultural elements, of course, but you're going to see core things
00:45:51.780
The breaking of the bread, the liturgy of the mass, the same readings are said, you know,
00:45:56.020
by millions or a billion Catholics every single—
00:45:58.860
And I do think there's something beautiful about that.
00:46:00.360
But I think that's—it's not just a Catholic thing.
00:46:03.160
I think that's meant to be a Christian experience, that we are all united in that
00:46:09.420
And I know, like, I'm going to guess your heart is there, too, that we want Christian
00:46:14.040
We want people to know us by our unity, by our love, by the sign of Jesus, of course,
00:46:19.800
working in us and the Holy Spirit working in us.
00:46:21.520
And I think that there's—I think knowing our history as Christians is so important.
00:46:27.160
I know you said, well, you know, just because the early church fathers said it doesn't
00:46:30.300
mean it's true, well, I think we have to really examine what they were saying, what
00:46:35.140
they were teaching, and look at the trajectory of Christianity when we're dealing with today
00:46:41.040
with modernity, this upsetting, quite frankly, of tradition and this upsetting of history
00:46:47.340
where it's like, we're going to decide because we're the smartest ones on the block.
00:46:51.800
And it's like, wait a minute, there's 2,000 years of other smart human beings post-Christ.
00:46:55.480
You know, we should take a look at what they said and did.
00:46:59.860
That a lot of people who deconstruct who think they're the first people to ask difficult
00:47:12.380
They have the power to create incredible inspiration and change in us.
00:47:17.320
I mean, that is a gift that God has given us, beautifully so.
00:47:21.440
But it's not just me and my Bible, one man, an island.
00:47:24.300
It's meant to be me and my Bible and the church and the communion of the brethren.
00:47:33.540
But we do believe in the authority of the local church.
00:47:36.280
We do believe in theologians and mentors and teachers.
00:47:41.560
It's really like what I see with Catholics and Protestants.
00:47:45.020
It's really not unity versus disunity because, as we've already talked about,
00:47:49.280
there's plenty of disunity within the Catholic Church, even if the catechism is clear.
00:47:53.720
Like, I just had a sweet Catholic older couple come up to me the other day,
00:47:57.440
and they said, you know, we're so excited to go to Santa Fe.
00:48:00.600
I guess there is some Catholic—he said something about, like,
00:48:04.120
it's important for a Catholic something in Santa Fe.
00:48:11.080
I forget which leader it was, or the priest, maybe, of the church that they were going to go to,
00:48:16.020
sent an email out, like, opposing Trump's immigration policy
00:48:25.980
And obviously, we have a lot of problems with that within Protestantism, too.
00:48:31.840
But it seems to me, like, even if the Catholic Church is clear,
00:48:35.460
there is plenty of disunity within the Catholic Church.
00:48:38.740
Well, there's—the Catholic Church isn't going to tell you what political label to take on.
00:48:42.440
And it's not going to prescribe very specific political policies.
00:48:47.640
And you might have any number of priests who will say,
00:48:49.760
well, I'm going to take the principle and say, you should vote for X, Y, Z.
00:48:53.540
And they have, you know, to some degree the freedom to say that they should be—
00:48:56.920
maybe they're going to get in trouble with a bishop, you know,
00:49:00.620
because they're not supposed to be telling people how to vote necessarily, right,
00:49:05.180
But there are principles that we all share, including on immigration,
00:49:09.800
including on respect for persons who struggle with same-sex attraction
00:49:12.640
and how that, you know, plays out in even political discourse.
00:49:16.140
And that doesn't mean that they are supporting open borders
00:49:19.220
or they're supporting, you know, gay marriage or anything.
00:49:22.220
No, the Church is very clear that a nation has a right to national sovereignty
00:49:26.840
And borders are a necessary and good thing for the protection of a nation.
00:49:30.600
And that, you know, sex is for one man, one woman in a marriage,
00:49:33.820
and any sexual activity outside of that is wrong.
00:49:36.060
So the Church is not—there's no confusion on that point,
00:49:38.860
but the opinions, any number of Catholics will have opinions, right?
00:49:44.140
I think with Protestantism is, you know, and there's so much to Protestantism.
00:49:50.380
There's Presbyterians, like you mentioned earlier.
00:49:51.860
So I don't want to paint too broadly with one brush.
00:49:54.120
But you go to a church service in any number of a Protestant church
00:50:00.440
it will be very different in terms of what you're getting and even being taught.
00:50:06.280
You go to a Catholic Mass, it is the same Mass in every church,
00:50:13.240
The same words are being spoken in the Liturgy of the Word.
00:50:16.480
The same words are being spoken in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
00:50:20.780
And I think that's the unity that, you know, is so beautiful to me.
00:50:25.540
I just wonder why—okay, let me read some statistics, and you can tell me.
00:50:36.920
I respect you so much, and I appreciate you getting to talk to me.
00:50:39.640
And Brie is telling me that we have to wrap soon.
00:50:41.280
So I want to say this, and then I have one other question.
00:50:44.320
I have a question about Mary, because that is maybe like one of my biggest points of confusion.
00:50:52.960
And this, I don't know if it is completely fair, because who knows how Pew is defining
00:50:59.140
And evangelical is like a part of Protestant, and they're weighing Catholics as a whole.
00:51:07.640
So 60% of Catholics believe that abortion should be legal in all or most cases, versus
00:51:17.140
76% of Protestants want abortion illegal, versus only 59% of Catholics.
00:51:22.100
62% of Catholics believe casual sex is fine, versus only 36% of evangelicals.
00:51:27.380
Only 33% of Catholics say homosexuality is a sin, versus 62% of evangelicals.
00:51:33.000
They're saying that to have same-sex attractions is not the sin.
00:51:37.700
So I think that's also just how the questions are asked.
00:51:40.740
Maybe Catholics have like a different understanding.
00:51:44.140
Like the word, like when you say this is being homosexual a sin, what does that mean?
00:51:48.300
Is having like an intense same-sex attraction and desire a sin?
00:52:03.860
But if your young child is severely tempted to something, that doesn't mean they are sinning
00:52:12.780
So the question is, with all of the unity that you just described and all of the differences
00:52:18.720
within Protestantism that you just described, even evangelical churches, evangelical could
00:52:22.680
be Baptist, it could be a different denomination.
00:52:25.220
And yet, at least according to these statistics, which people can say, I don't trust peer research
00:52:29.820
and that's their prerogative, but evangelicals are actually a lot more aligned with what the
00:52:36.020
Bible actually teaches on those things, and we're a lot more unified.
00:52:38.540
So it might be true that you could go to our local congregations and you could hear a different
00:52:42.420
sermon, you could hear a different passage, you could hear different songs, songs.
00:52:48.960
An evangelical Christian would be someone who believes in the gospel, that you have to
00:52:55.640
be saved by Jesus Christ in order to be saved, and that we are evangelistic in our
00:53:00.140
faith, that we are going out and we are sharing the gospel and we are trying to get
00:53:06.260
Mainline Protestants who are like, I would consider that progressive Episcopal, for example, a
00:53:12.380
lot of Methodists, even some Presbyterians, are not evangelical.
00:53:15.500
So who would be the earliest evangelical Christian in your view?
00:53:19.780
I'm not sure who the earliest evangelical Christian would be.
00:53:20.860
And the reason I'm asking is because I think you're right in that, like, if you look
00:53:24.420
at mainland Protestantism and you look at Catholics, especially the Catholics kind of in culture,
00:53:28.500
but not necessarily the Catholics in practice, right, you're going to see those numbers.
00:53:34.300
And I think today there's this born-again Christian sort of identity that's very beautiful
00:53:38.700
that a lot of people experience where they say, I just want to 100% follow Jesus.
00:53:44.380
And they are willing to do the harder things morally.
00:53:47.380
But that doesn't mean that the teachings of the Catholic Church or the 2,000 years of
00:53:51.420
fruit there, I know we're debating about the history, isn't real.
00:53:54.240
It means that there's a catechesis crisis in the Catholic Church.
00:53:57.880
That's what I wanted to ask you, if that's what you think the answer is.
00:54:02.140
There's a catechesis crisis in the Catholic Church.
00:54:04.340
And I would say there's a catechesis crisis, formation crisis largely in civilization, broadly,
00:54:14.960
I think we should employ, like the Westminster Catechism, I think we should do a better job
00:54:19.420
of knowing the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed.
00:54:21.880
That's something we agree on is the Nicene Creed.
00:54:23.820
And I think that we should do a better job as Protestants of knowing those things too.
00:54:37.140
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Sorry, Brie, but I have to ask it, and I know it's a big one.
00:55:34.520
I really, and I asked Trent Horn this too, and I don't think I got a sufficient answer.
00:55:40.500
If Mary is the queen of heaven, if she is carrying our prayers, she has a supernatural
00:55:49.380
ability, according to Catholic teaching, to understand multiple languages, to hear multiple
00:55:53.780
prayers happening at once, I guess millions at one time, and then carry them to God.
00:56:00.060
Well, just to be clear, she did not have that ability when she was here.
00:56:04.460
But that's only because she's in the beatific vision.
00:56:08.000
I mean, in heaven, we are in total communion with God.
00:56:10.940
So that power is not, just to be clear, that power is not of Mary's power.
00:56:19.940
Okay, but he has given it to Mary in a way that he hasn't necessarily given to others.
00:56:25.680
So everyone has the same power that Mary does in heaven?
00:56:27.520
The saints in heaven have the same power to hear the prayers of the faithful, just like
00:56:31.760
Any Christian in heaven has the power in heaven to hear prayers.
00:56:40.820
The prayers rising up to the saints in heaven, that's a revelation scene.
00:56:47.060
So this idea of praying to the saints in heaven is a revelations concept.
00:56:52.060
Yes, we would disagree on what that actually means and if the people who are in heaven are
00:56:59.260
My question about Mary, okay, whatever her power is, she is set apart from the other saints.
00:57:13.600
But the rosary is meditating on the life of Christ, to be clear.
00:57:18.840
The rosary isn't an obsession with Mary per se, although she's pretty amazing.
00:57:22.980
The rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ.
00:57:25.620
It's literally a meditation on the scenes of the gospel because you have the different
00:57:29.600
The whole idea of praying those prayers is to get into a meditative sort of habit of thinking
00:57:34.320
about what you're praying about, which is, you know, in the joyful mysteries, right?
00:57:39.700
It's, you know, it's the enunciation when the angel comes to Mary.
00:57:42.420
And then you have the visitation when Elizabeth comes to Mary.
00:57:46.440
And then you have the birth and nativity of Jesus Christ, da, da, da.
00:57:49.120
Which we all believe is inerrant and beautiful and good.
00:57:53.680
But Mary is special in Catholic doctrine, of course.
00:57:56.200
Not just as the mother of Jesus, but she's discussed a lot.
00:58:02.580
Well, she's discussed a lot because she is the mother of Jesus, to be clear.
00:58:07.420
It's definitely a different level of honoring within Catholicism.
00:58:11.760
My question is, if she is to be honored in that way, if she is to be prayed to, and I
00:58:30.300
Why does Jesus rebuff every attempt to honor her in a special way, except for one time
00:58:36.800
Like, why don't we see any example of praying to or through Mary in that way in Scripture
00:58:47.820
You see it in Scripture, most importantly, in the life of Jesus Christ and what he said
00:58:54.900
It's kind of rude sometimes, I think, to us, it seems like.
00:58:57.480
Well, I think with a modern lens, you might consider it rudeness, but we know that God
00:59:15.580
There's actually a lot about Mary in Scripture.
00:59:17.080
Well, I didn't say not much about Mary in Scripture.
00:59:19.260
I said that there's nothing in the epistles or in Acts that shows us to pray to or through
00:59:28.860
She was probably still around quietly doing the Lord's work.
00:59:32.780
But don't you think she would have been talked about at all?
00:59:35.480
Like, you don't think Paul would have written about it?
00:59:37.900
I mean, there might have been letters that we don't have that Paul wrote specifically
00:59:41.700
to women saying, you know, learn from the mother of Jesus.
00:59:51.200
This is the Magnificat when Mary is praising the Lord for choosing her to carry his son.
01:00:01.700
My spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant.
01:00:05.560
From this day, all generations will call me blessed, for the Almighty has done great
01:00:13.620
From this day, all generations will call me blessed.
01:00:17.260
And that is what Catholics are doing, and some Protestants to this day, literally when
01:00:21.840
they pray the rosary and when they honor Mary and when they celebrate Mary, the mother
01:00:27.020
I don't think that we disagree in calling her blessed.
01:00:30.420
She was very blessed, but we don't believe that she is carrying our prayers to Jesus
01:00:34.520
or that she has the ability to do that, or that she's the Queen of Heaven.
01:00:41.620
Just to be clear, when she's carrying our prayers to Jesus, we can pray directly to Jesus.
01:00:45.920
And to the Holy Spirit, and to God the Father, to the whole Trinity.
01:00:49.160
Mary isn't meant to be a mother for all Christians.
01:00:51.040
Like, Jesus gave her upon his death on the cross before he took his last breath.
01:00:54.560
He said, Behold your mother and behold your son.
01:00:57.000
Everything Jesus did was with intention in Holy Scripture and was passed on by the first...
01:01:01.220
...you know, by those who wrote, recorded, right?
01:01:06.680
And when Jesus said, Behold your mother, behold your son, that wasn't just a little thing
01:01:13.420
Because remember, I think it was St. John wrote, if all the things could be recorded,
01:01:18.380
it would take endless tomes to record them of the life of Jesus Christ.
01:01:27.220
Because Mary is not meant to just be, you know, God is endlessly generous.
01:01:31.600
Everything he did was for the good of Christians, right?
01:01:39.300
To be an intercessor for us and to be a role model for us.
01:01:43.660
That doesn't mean his prayer, we can't go directly to Christ.
01:01:49.060
You know, I just asked my husband this morning, can you pray for me?
01:01:54.180
But why wouldn't I want the saints in heaven who are forever glorifying God in perfect communion
01:01:59.880
with him to pray for me in a special way, Mama Mary, who Jesus literally gave to his
01:02:05.140
disciples to be a mother and then by transfer to the rest of Christendom.
01:02:09.120
How do you interpret this verse in Luke, Luke eight, starting in 19, then his mother and
01:02:17.500
his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd.
01:02:20.540
And he was told your mother and your brothers are standing outside desiring to see you.
01:02:25.240
My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.
01:02:29.960
So Jesus has multiple opportunities in scripture to specifically call out Mary and honor Mary
01:02:43.580
I think he does frequently honor his mother, especially that first scene in the wedding
01:02:47.080
feast at Cana when he talks about, uh, do whatever she tells you.
01:02:50.400
Like she literally, he literally gives the command for the events and solving the problem of there's
01:02:57.520
His, you know, the steward comes over and says, there's no wine.
01:03:00.880
And he says, basically talk to my mother about it.
01:03:10.020
So it, you, you can say, like you said, at first, and by the way, I want to tell everyone
01:03:15.520
And it is an AI app that has all of faith and morals, theologically and morally correct,
01:03:23.740
But you just type in, does Luke eight disrespect Mary?
01:03:28.180
Um, and I probably shouldn't have said that earlier disrespect.
01:03:31.700
Cause like you said, and you said it completely rightly, it's not possible.
01:03:36.660
But what I meant by that is if we are looking for Jesus to give her special treatment, it
01:03:41.440
might seem to us, well, he rebuffed her actually.
01:03:46.940
And, and, and, you know, quite frankly, Ali, we weren't there, but I, I'm going to guess
01:03:50.300
like Mary knew Mary was very wise and loving and obedient.
01:03:53.360
She knew like the Lord is going to teach through this.
01:03:55.980
And it, you know, this is truthfully his explanation, which is based on the catechism, by the way,
01:03:59.260
but it says, you know, Catholic teaching emphasizes at first it might seem as if Jesus
01:04:05.380
However, Catholic teaching emphasizes that this passage is not about disrespecting Mary,
01:04:09.900
but rather expanding the understanding of spiritual kinship.
01:04:13.860
In fact, Mary is the perfect example of someone who hears the word of God.
01:04:18.080
So it was a, it was a side praise and does it or yes to God.
01:04:22.300
Therefore this passage underscores her exemplary role in hearing and obeying God words.
01:04:26.540
So it's basically saying you're not special just because you're my biological mother.
01:04:32.220
And he's using this moment to say, all of you can be special too.
01:04:35.900
It's not just my mother who is special chosen by me.
01:04:38.180
Of course, she is extremely special, but I'm inviting you all to be children of my mother,
01:04:42.240
to be brothers and sisters of me by hearing my word and acting on it.
01:04:46.040
So he's beautifully allowing Mary to be an example of what true Christian living means.
01:04:51.000
Last thing I just want to clarify in the wedding at, at the wedding at Kana or Kana, I guess
01:04:58.180
Jesus said to her, so Mary says they have no wine.
01:05:01.260
Jesus said to her, woman, what does that have to do with me?
01:05:05.960
And then his mother said to the servants, do whatever he tells you.
01:05:14.140
So to me, it seems like Jesus had the opportunity to revere Mary in certain ways and he didn't.
01:05:18.900
And obviously that's not what Catholic doctrine teaches.
01:05:22.540
Oh, you're saying you don't think she, he was respecting her with that or revering her with that.
01:05:26.220
Um, no, I don't think he was especially revering her to the point that Catholic doctrine teaches.
01:05:30.760
I promise we will have a part two, but I've gotten multiple messages and I, I want people
01:05:35.680
to hear fully and honestly what the Catholic perspective is.
01:05:42.320
We can have a part two, we can do it on her show.
01:05:45.160
You can go to her show and you can see all of her amazing work.
01:05:49.560
And she does absolutely incredible work and the anti-abortion pro-life movement.
01:05:56.780
And I'm so thankful that we can have these discussions and still be friends and be passionate
01:06:00.820
about it and still respect the heck out of each other.
01:06:04.260
So I will always support Lila and so grateful for that.
01:06:08.260
Well, thank you so much for this spirited discussion.
01:06:19.800
You might have her, I could have misheard it, but just in case other people heard it the way