Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1216 ｜ Can Catholics Claim the One True Church？

00:00:00.200 Is the Catholic Church the church Jesus established 2,000 years ago?

00:00:05.080 My good friend Lila Rose of Live Action and I are debating this and much more about Catholic

00:00:11.840 and Protestant doctrine today, but first we are getting into the joys and the challenges

00:00:17.160 of motherhood, how we know as Christians when to stop having children.

00:00:23.020 This is a great and very full discussion and a lively debate on today's episode of Relatable.

00:00:28.700 It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:31.160 Go to GoodRanchers.com, code Allie at checkout.

00:00:34.020 That's GoodRanchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:45.800 Lila, thanks so much for joining us.

00:00:47.760 Tell me what's going on in your life.

00:00:49.560 What's your favorite thing about motherhood right now?

00:00:52.040 I love that question.

00:00:54.000 I just, my daughter, our youngest Gigi is 14 months old.

00:00:58.340 Yeah.

00:00:58.940 And she's chunky.

00:01:00.240 She's too, she's wearing two teeth and she's so sweet.

00:01:03.300 She's walking, talking, doing all the things.

00:01:05.660 And so it's just the oxytocin that I get from just holding her and cuddling her and just seeing

00:01:10.760 her smile.

00:01:11.360 Just pushing her.

00:01:11.660 There's nothing more joyful when I wake up in the morning than seeing my daughter.

00:01:16.380 Yes.

00:01:16.760 So, and then my sons, of course, too.

00:01:18.000 They're magical.

00:01:18.680 So it's just, I literally, I wake up every day and I pinch myself that I get to be their

00:01:23.180 mom and I get to have this life.

00:01:24.880 Yes.

00:01:25.280 It's just such a blessing.

00:01:26.120 Okay.

00:01:26.180 Your kids, your boys, I think, look alike.

00:01:29.040 They do.

00:01:29.180 And then your daughter looks completely different.

00:01:31.960 Yes.

00:01:32.500 Than your boys.

00:01:33.520 And they're all so distinctly cute.

00:01:35.320 Yeah.

00:01:35.460 But so different.

00:01:36.800 Yeah.

00:01:37.220 Everyone's like, we're asking about their coloring and saying like, where did these kids

00:01:41.440 come from?

00:01:41.800 And we're like, I don't know.

00:01:42.560 Although we saw our, we saw my brother and his sister and his wife, my sister-in-law,

00:01:46.540 and their youngest has the same coloring, strangely, as my boys.

00:01:50.600 So they all look like a little pack.

00:01:52.080 Yeah.

00:01:52.500 Genetics are very fun.

00:01:53.500 Oh, I think your boys look like you.

00:01:55.060 Oh, good.

00:01:55.460 Oh, really?

00:01:55.980 Okay, good.

00:01:56.520 Yes.

00:01:57.020 I can see it.

00:01:57.620 That's not what people say.

00:01:58.340 They say he's all, they're all my husband.

00:02:00.220 Okay.

00:02:00.800 Well, that's okay, too.

00:02:02.000 I know.

00:02:02.360 I don't get a lot of like, your kids look just like you.

00:02:05.500 I thought that my-

00:02:06.240 I think they look like you.

00:02:07.480 I thought that my, um, jeans would be dominant because my, I look like my mom and my mom's

00:02:12.720 jeans are so dominant and my jeans didn't put up that much of a fight.

00:02:16.720 I thought that they would.

00:02:17.640 Well, I think you and, like you and Timothy have similar coloring.

00:02:20.440 Yeah.

00:02:20.660 So it kind of works.

00:02:21.640 Yeah.

00:02:22.060 That's true.

00:02:22.680 Works for the girl.

00:02:23.020 You can see both, you can see both of you and the girls.

00:02:25.880 Okay.

00:02:26.140 What's one thing that you learned?

00:02:28.620 Okay.

00:02:29.060 Two things.

00:02:29.840 One thing that you learned going from two kids to three kids, and then one thing you learned

00:02:34.820 going from boy mom to boy and girl mom.

00:02:37.420 Okay.

00:02:37.840 I'll start with the boy mom to girl mom because that's easier.

00:02:39.920 It is so different, Allie.

00:02:41.240 Already.

00:02:41.940 And I know, I know there's like a spectrum, of course, of how kids are and because of

00:02:46.280 their personalities and temperaments, but she is so, she, the way that she emotionally

00:02:50.420 responds to things, everything's a bigger deal.

00:02:52.460 And she's just a, like a 14 month, but different than her brothers were.

00:02:56.580 She's more almost emotionally interested.

00:02:59.820 It's like she's, she kind of has this, she has little bits that she does with the people

00:03:03.480 that she meets.

00:03:04.360 Yeah.

00:03:04.560 Again, it's spunky personality, but there's also something very girly about it.

00:03:08.300 Yes.

00:03:08.760 And then what she's interested in.

00:03:10.580 It is so undeniable, the biology.

00:03:13.160 She goes for the doll.

00:03:15.280 She goes for the, she's very like careful with the toy and gentle.

00:03:19.300 The boys, it's about destruction and building and conquering and climbing.

00:03:23.440 I mean, she still wants to climb and build and do things, but you see already.

00:03:27.120 I mean, I get to see anyways.

00:03:28.380 And again, not every girl, but my girl, definitely.

00:03:31.060 There's just girly, girly stuff that she's into.

00:03:33.600 And it's not because we're pushing it on her.

00:03:34.680 She just kind of explores.

00:03:35.660 Most of the toys are boys' toys.

00:03:37.440 Yeah.

00:03:37.820 Because of the older boys.

00:03:39.040 Yeah.

00:03:39.240 So that, that's the biggest thing.

00:03:40.660 Just the beautiful differences that are already emerging.

00:03:43.220 Yeah.

00:03:43.660 Between them.

00:03:44.360 That just like innate differences between boys and girls.

00:03:47.220 I know.

00:03:48.020 They are different.

00:03:49.000 Yes.

00:03:49.380 Totally different.

00:03:50.300 I was asking Timothy the other day, cause our, our youngest is, you kind of like start

00:03:55.320 losing track of the moms.

00:03:56.540 She'll be two in a few months.

00:03:57.880 So I don't know, 21 months maybe, but she points out every baby that she sees baby, baby,

00:04:03.180 baby.

00:04:03.540 I'm like, that kid's bigger than you, but like everything is a baby that's small.

00:04:07.580 And I'm like, I'm wondering if we had a boy this age, would a boy be pointing out

00:04:12.920 baby, baby, baby to everything?

00:04:15.180 It's so funny.

00:04:15.880 They point out the trucks and the cars.

00:04:17.900 Yes.

00:04:18.080 Which my kids are not interested in that at all.

00:04:20.660 A boy mom asked me the other day, cause like where we're staying is right by a train.

00:04:24.360 And they were like, oh, I bet your kids think that's so cool during the day when they see

00:04:27.480 the train go by.

00:04:28.320 I'm like, no, they don't at all.

00:04:30.260 They don't think it's cool.

00:04:30.680 No, my boys still love babies and they love little kids and they're very tender, but it's

00:04:34.700 different.

00:04:35.900 Yeah.

00:04:36.060 Don't tell me it's not different.

00:04:37.020 Again, not every child is going to be the same as every other child, but it is, there is

00:04:40.220 largely speaking, generally speaking, there's differences and they're beautiful.

00:04:43.040 So what do you do to help your kids get their energy out?

00:04:47.080 Because two boys especially have a ton of energy and they need to be active in all of

00:04:52.400 that.

00:04:52.800 And so like, what's your advice on that?

00:04:55.700 Like go to activity?

00:04:55.900 Yeah.

00:04:56.600 Great question.

00:04:57.320 We wander around the backyard and just like go in circles.

00:05:00.380 We actually took the cars out of the garage and they just ride the bikes in the garage

00:05:04.220 if I need them more contained and they'll just go in circles and circles and circles.

00:05:07.080 Uh, they wrestle with super, try to like supervise from at least a distance, but it's hard.

00:05:13.300 I mean, I will say around 4 PM every day.

00:05:16.400 Yeah.

00:05:16.860 There's complete chaos and that's usually dinner hour.

00:05:18.980 You're starting to like try to prep dinner.

00:05:20.640 So I haven't really figured out exactly how to do it because it does just get crazy.

00:05:24.940 And there's only, I only have three.

00:05:26.120 I mean, my mother had eight kids.

00:05:27.540 My mother had eight kids and she had to do it, you know, do that.

00:05:30.300 And she had almost no help, you know, and I'm blessed with much more help than she

00:05:33.220 had, but it is, it is, I don't know.

00:05:35.740 Do you have any tricks?

00:05:36.500 Yeah.

00:05:36.680 I guess you're, you're, you have girls, so maybe they're not as crazy.

00:05:38.800 But they still, you know, it's like, they're still kids.

00:05:40.720 And so they still have the energy and they, at the end of the day is when you start hearing

00:05:45.460 like, I'm bored, I want to do things.

00:05:47.440 And we try to push off screens as long as possible.

00:05:49.840 We don't do iPads or tablets or anything like that.

00:05:52.200 But for TV, we do let them watch TV sometimes, but we try to push it towards the very end of the

00:05:58.500 day.

00:05:58.800 So it's limited to like when we're trying to get dinner ready and all of that.

00:06:03.640 But even that, like if I can get them to go outside or to start doing something, I prefer

00:06:09.760 that.

00:06:10.400 And a little bit of a consequence to that.

00:06:12.760 So we have like a crepe myrtle.

00:06:14.400 Do you know what that is?

00:06:15.820 It might be more prevalent in the, in the South.

00:06:18.620 Oh, it's a plant.

00:06:19.220 Yes.

00:06:19.720 It's a tree, but it's not really like a good climbing tree.

00:06:23.300 It's like very flimsy, but my oldest started climbing in it because she found a bird's

00:06:28.400 nest and she was so excited about this bird's nest and it was occupying so much of her time.

00:06:33.140 And I'm like, that is great.

00:06:34.580 I love that for her.

00:06:36.180 And she started trying to find worms and bugs and putting it in the bird's nest.

00:06:40.860 Were there baby birds or eggs?

00:06:42.060 There were, there were eggs in there.

00:06:43.700 So she was really excited about that.

00:06:45.640 And the mama bird would come back and all of that stuff.

00:06:48.220 Of course, the mama bird was like not excited about my, like a six-year-old being up there.

00:06:52.700 And my six-year-old accidentally knocked one of the eggs out and it splattered on the ground.

00:06:58.800 And she was like very traumatized.

00:07:01.100 Could you see a chick embryo?

00:07:01.940 No, but she was like very traumatized by this.

00:07:05.480 And I'm like, okay, you know what?

00:07:06.780 This is a good life lesson though.

00:07:09.040 We did.

00:07:09.360 No, not touch.

00:07:10.580 Well, we did talk about that, but it was also like, well, it's kind of my fault.

00:07:14.180 Cause I totally allowed her to do that.

00:07:16.600 Even though we did talk about the risk of it, but also like, it's good to be sad.

00:07:20.500 We take care of nature.

00:07:22.060 We take care of animals.

00:07:23.080 We care about animals, but also people matter more than animals.

00:07:26.640 And so it's okay.

00:07:28.640 It's great.

00:07:29.720 And so, yeah, I just think there's like a lot of lessons to be learned when we do try

00:07:35.020 to like get our kids to push past boredom, which I'm not perfect at at all.

00:07:38.720 All of the little adventures that they go on, like contain so many, so many different lessons,

00:07:43.900 but that does require like more energy and patience from me, which I don't like, you know,

00:07:48.640 always perfectly give.

00:07:49.960 I've actually, that's something I've been noticing more is intentionally letting them

00:07:53.860 just play together.

00:07:54.860 And, and if there's even a little bit of a squabble, letting them figure it out.

00:07:58.120 Now, obviously if someone's getting injured, go and check in.

00:08:00.560 I'm more talking about the older boys, the three and the five-year-old, but if they're

00:08:03.140 in the backyard and I hear a squabble, see if they can resolve it.

00:08:06.260 And then also just let them get busy.

00:08:07.860 And they come up with the most interesting little, you know, they'll color pages and put

00:08:11.680 up signs, like tape signs on the wall, like do not pass or, you know, just coming

00:08:15.620 up with random stuff, but they entertain themselves.

00:08:17.980 They learn to play without me having to get in there and having to direct every step.

00:08:22.300 And I think that's healthy.

00:08:22.960 I think we, as modern parents, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to hyper plan for

00:08:29.320 our kids, how to engage them, how to entertain them, how to, yes, educate them.

00:08:34.100 We should be very focused.

00:08:35.600 We should be nurturing.

00:08:36.380 We should be forming them.

00:08:37.240 But free play, I grew up just spending most of my time running around our backyard with

00:08:42.620 my brothers.

00:08:43.320 Yeah.

00:08:43.920 For hours.

00:08:44.860 Yeah.

00:08:45.100 And my mother would be taking care of the younger kids or doing other things in the house for

00:08:48.620 hours.

00:08:49.020 And we would get in trouble.

00:08:50.040 I mean, we would mess things up.

00:08:51.720 We would get dirty.

00:08:52.400 But it was so wonderful because our imaginations could kind of rule the day instead of having

00:08:57.400 a parent imposing an activity on us.

00:08:59.360 Yeah.

00:08:59.780 Remind me where you fall in line with your siblings?

00:09:01.940 Third oldest out of eight kids.

00:09:03.840 Okay.

00:09:04.220 And you have, do you have older sisters or were you the first girl?

00:09:06.380 I'm in between five boys.

00:09:08.140 Okay.

00:09:08.520 Yeah.

00:09:08.840 Oh my goodness.

00:09:09.640 And then I have my little sisters at the end.

00:09:11.260 Okay.

00:09:11.480 What was it like growing up with that many siblings?

00:09:13.320 I just have two and they're way older than me.

00:09:15.240 So I was kind of like an only child in some ways.

00:09:16.900 What's the age gap?

00:09:18.440 10 and a half and seven years.

00:09:20.500 So you're kind of like an only, in a way, an only child.

00:09:22.520 In some ways.

00:09:22.900 In some ways.

00:09:23.560 So I'm curious like what the experience is like with so many close siblings.

00:09:26.400 It was awesome.

00:09:27.580 Yeah.

00:09:27.840 It was, it makes me want to cry thinking about it.

00:09:29.660 It was awesome to have brothers and sisters to play with.

00:09:33.060 I mean, there was chaos.

00:09:34.720 There were certainly elements that my parents were like, I wish we'd have done this better

00:09:37.940 because there is a lot of little souls to, to, to raise.

00:09:41.340 But we got to be best friends.

00:09:43.260 We got to do crazy stuff together.

00:09:44.960 We got to learn so much about dealing with different temperaments and different kinds

00:09:48.900 of people and different interests and different desires.

00:09:50.940 I mean, it's, it's really a school, a school of human formation to have to deal with all

00:09:54.620 these different people.

00:09:55.360 I highly recommend big families.

00:09:57.220 If you're able to have a big family, you know, God willing, I highly recommend people.

00:10:01.480 When, when I was talking to a couple recently and they said, oh yeah, we, we have three.

00:10:05.740 We're not sure about four.

00:10:07.080 And, and I said, well, what do you mean you're not sure about four?

00:10:09.800 Well, you know, it's just, you know, it's nice to be out of diapers, whatever.

00:10:13.060 And I can understand that.

00:10:14.580 Of course, when you're in it, you're in it.

00:10:16.340 It's hard.

00:10:16.760 But I just think about the gift that a sibling is to another sibling.

00:10:20.800 Just how irreplaceable every, all seven of my siblings, they are irreplaceable to me.

00:10:26.280 There are, they are unrepeatable.

00:10:27.900 They're so beautiful.

00:10:29.020 And imagine life without even just one of them is so sad.

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00:12:52.460 How do you think you decide, and maybe this is where Catholic teaching speaks into this,

00:12:56.900 but how do you decide when you are done?

00:13:00.200 What factors do you think are legitimate to consider?

00:13:03.260 It's a great question.

00:13:04.620 So the Catholic teaching on it is, and I was raised Protestant, so my family wasn't even

00:13:09.060 Catholic growing up.

00:13:09.980 So it's not like-

00:13:10.180 You just had a lot of kids.

00:13:10.820 I know.

00:13:11.280 They were very unusual in their church.

00:13:13.040 Yeah.

00:13:13.240 And they got judged for it, actually, because they just felt this sense of saying yes to

00:13:18.060 God's generosity of, if God gives us blesses us with children, we're going to just accept

00:13:22.440 them.

00:13:22.680 And we're not- They felt contraception.

00:13:24.340 They just had a visceral ick response to contraception.

00:13:26.940 Yeah.

00:13:27.840 But how do we know when- How do you know when you're done?

00:13:31.240 So I think for Christians, I believe we should always be open to life in the sense that we

00:13:37.040 know that sex can bring life into the world.

00:13:39.260 And if it does, we're going to embrace that child, right?

00:13:42.360 We get to decide when to have sex when we're married, right?

00:13:45.100 It's not like we're being forced to.

00:13:46.700 We shouldn't be forced to.

00:13:47.460 We decide, right, as a couple.

00:13:48.860 And so there's that natural built-in, okay, we're going to delay or not have children at

00:13:52.780 this time because of some serious issue, or you have your fertility window.

00:13:57.720 We're not going to be intimate during this fertility window because we want to space children

00:14:01.280 for this important issue.

00:14:03.400 And so the Catholic teaching says that that's okay to do fertility awareness method or natural

00:14:08.600 family planning.

00:14:09.800 So it's okay to purposely-

00:14:11.820 Space.

00:14:12.640 Try not to conceive.

00:14:13.940 Yes.

00:14:14.860 There needs to be a good reason.

00:14:16.580 It shouldn't be like, oh, I want to go on 10 more vacations and I don't want to be bothered

00:14:20.340 with kids because the crown of marriage is a child, right?

00:14:24.540 And that's really the point of marriage is sanctity for the spouses and then to bring up

00:14:29.440 the next generation.

00:14:30.220 So that's- And that takes sacrifice.

00:14:33.080 I mean, to be generous with God and open to life, it's not necessarily an easy thing.

00:14:37.760 Some people are like, yay, kids.

00:14:39.060 But other people are like, this is really hard for me.

00:14:41.440 A lot of people, this is really hard.

00:14:43.300 But it's- The hard is a beautiful hard.

00:14:46.020 It's a meaningful hard.

00:14:47.320 So with Catholic teaching, it's not so much about are we done yet and more about discerning,

00:14:54.360 okay, is there a reason, a significant reason to pause on having children at this time?

00:15:02.220 If we do conceive, of course, we're going to be open to them.

00:15:04.160 But we're going to either use fertility awareness to space the child or to delay the, you know,

00:15:09.900 getting pregnant, or they can choose to abstain, obviously, but they can just not have sex during

00:15:14.620 the fertile period.

00:15:15.940 And a lot of couples will do that.

00:15:18.140 Now, some couples, maybe they have, you know, four or five kids and they say there's some

00:15:21.920 significant health issues in the family, right?

00:15:24.140 There's a significant economic issue in the family.

00:15:26.640 And they can say, okay, we're going to pause, maybe even indefinitely.

00:15:30.240 And that might be done in a way, because maybe by the time they're able to start again,

00:15:35.320 she's, you know, they're not able to conceive.

00:15:36.780 She's older.

00:15:37.560 There's other health issues.

00:15:38.860 So in that sense, you can be done in the sense that you can say, well, this is not a good

00:15:42.700 time because of these important reasons.

00:15:44.800 So we're going to wait.

00:15:46.080 But I think the attitude of, I'm done.

00:15:47.620 I got my three.

00:15:49.020 Sorry, God.

00:15:49.640 It doesn't matter if you have more in mind.

00:15:50.840 I'm done-zo.

00:15:51.520 Like that, I don't think that's a Christian posture.

00:15:54.100 Separate from Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, I just think the Christian posture is children are

00:15:58.280 a blessing from the Lord.

00:15:59.900 You want many arrows, you know, gifts from God.

00:16:03.700 And that, what's the whole crown of marriage?

00:16:06.900 Yeah.

00:16:07.500 Child.

00:16:08.240 Yeah.

00:16:09.240 This idea of two to three kids is a very, and I know both of us have three kids, so

00:16:13.020 we're only halfway, you know, we're only starting.

00:16:16.220 But this idea of just one, two, three kids is a very modern idea.

00:16:20.060 Yeah.

00:16:20.920 Yeah.

00:16:21.340 We've been talking about, and I haven't talked about this publicly, but my husband and I,

00:16:25.400 we've been talking about, you know, having more kids and the difficulty that we have.

00:16:31.040 And I know that this is legitimate.

00:16:32.560 I just am wrestling with whether this is like not trusting God and I'm being fearful or whether

00:16:41.040 I'm employing wisdom and discernment.

00:16:43.940 And, you know, Timothy and I are praying about this and talking about this.

00:16:46.840 We have three.

00:16:47.920 We love three.

00:16:48.960 We'd want more.

00:16:50.140 But all of my births and postpartum have been really hard.

00:16:54.120 I had two C-sections and then I had a vaginal birth.

00:16:56.560 I'm so thankful that I got to experience both actually, um, because it's given me just

00:17:01.980 like a lot of understanding and appreciation for all of that.

00:17:05.740 But they've been tough, like very painful, very difficult.

00:17:10.060 I won't get into like graphic things, but just hard and emotionally because of the physical

00:17:16.860 pain that lasted for so long.

00:17:18.700 And there's a part of me that's like, I'm scared, you know, I'm scared to do that again.

00:17:23.580 And I'm scared that I won't be able to be fully present for my kids for an extended period of

00:17:28.720 time.

00:17:29.680 And obviously the child will be worth it.

00:17:32.560 It's not a question about that.

00:17:34.320 It's just a question about at what point can you weigh those factors and say, it would be wise

00:17:40.700 to not do that.

00:17:42.400 Or are you saying, you know what, I trust you, God, I trust you with my body.

00:17:46.680 I trust, you know, you with my recovery and it is going to be difficult, but like, you know,

00:17:53.320 we know that a child is a blessing and I don't know if there's a hard and fast answer to that.

00:17:57.340 I do think it takes prayer and discernment, but I also just want to say, I relate to those out

00:18:02.000 there who are, you know, wrestling with those very real thoughts and fears.

00:18:06.960 That is very real.

00:18:08.260 And that, those are tough things.

00:18:09.860 Yeah.

00:18:10.180 And like you said, you've had these very, very tough pregnancies and deliveries and other

00:18:14.880 women, they have other health conditions and it's, it's tough.

00:18:18.300 It's tough.

00:18:18.940 I think a foundational principle for us as Christians, right, is like you just said so beautifully

00:18:24.120 is trust, trust in God.

00:18:25.940 And then I think another piece of it too is generosity where yes, you want to be prudent.

00:18:30.760 So if there's some, you know, significant reason or there's obviously some kind of a health

00:18:34.720 crisis, that's, you know, maybe a pause moment.

00:18:37.540 Um, it's, it's not a required pause moment by the way, but it may be a pause moment, but

00:18:41.160 I think the generosity piece is so, uh, important and it, and it's tricky because well, how generous

00:18:46.580 is generous, right?

00:18:47.660 Yeah.

00:18:48.120 You know, in today's world, three is already generous compared to, you know, other, other

00:18:52.240 people.

00:18:52.560 So I think praying about it and just asking God, you know, give me, give me, if this is,

00:18:58.280 uh, for, for you, you know, from you, I want more confidence, maybe more peace.

00:19:03.460 Cause it sounds like that fear of what you've been through is, is holding you, you know,

00:19:08.940 back.

00:19:09.280 It's, it hurts.

00:19:09.840 It's a heavy thing weighing on you, understandably.

00:19:11.900 So, yeah.

00:19:12.480 And it's kind of true in all decision-making that we have as Christians when you're not

00:19:17.520 choosing between sin and the right thing to do, you're not necessarily choosing between

00:19:22.520 good and bad.

00:19:23.240 You're choosing between good and best.

00:19:25.500 And that takes like a lot of fine tuning discernment and a lot of Holy spirit.

00:19:30.880 Cause I might not open the Bible and have my exact verse for my exact situation.

00:19:37.180 Um, yeah.

00:19:37.980 And that is a beautiful thing about marriage too is, and a beautiful thing about being a

00:19:42.160 wife is that when I don't know what to do, I can always pray that God would lead Timothy

00:19:47.680 and that Timothy would lead us.

00:19:49.640 And it's great that that is like a mantle that he holds that I don't ultimately hold

00:19:53.760 that.

00:19:53.920 He's like the leader of our family.

00:19:55.340 My mom always says like, she always wanted one more.

00:19:58.160 And my dad, after every child was like, no, we're done.

00:20:01.420 He was done after one.

00:20:02.820 He was definitely done after two.

00:20:04.540 And every time my mom prayed, okay, God, I want another baby, but it has to be his idea.

00:20:11.240 My dad's idea.

00:20:12.260 And so she says it was always the timing that my dad would just one day turn around after

00:20:17.560 saying, I don't want any more kids and say, we should have another baby.

00:20:20.440 And then they did.

00:20:22.120 And so I'm not saying that's everyone's situation, but I think for us women too, kind

00:20:26.320 of like releasing that and remembering that our husband is like, is the leader in our family.

00:20:31.520 It kind of relieves some pressure too.

00:20:33.620 I love that.

00:20:34.440 Yeah, it's true.

00:20:35.720 Then God speaks through obviously the natural order of, of the husband in the home.

00:20:40.780 I think the other element that's really peace giving is, you know, I see, you know, as

00:20:46.120 you know, I'm Catholic and contraception, the teaching there is that anything that frustrates

00:20:49.920 the procreative and the unitive in a sexual act is wrong.

00:20:53.600 So sex is designed to bring two people together incredibly intimately.

00:20:57.460 And it's designed to bring life into the world.

00:20:59.280 Not every sexual act can bring life into the world because you're not always fertile as

00:21:02.720 a woman.

00:21:03.120 You know, we know this of course, but if you intentionally during your fertility period are

00:21:07.440 using contraception to separate the procreative and the unitive, then you're frustrating

00:21:11.560 the design that God has.

00:21:12.820 And so that's the beauty of natural family planning or fertility awareness methods is you can space

00:21:18.500 pregnancies, you can delay, uh, potentially getting pregnant if there's a significant

00:21:22.680 reason.

00:21:23.360 And you do that using the natural rhythms of the body as opposed to this artificial contraception.

00:21:29.660 So I think that also gives a lot of freedom for Christian families to say, okay, we don't

00:21:34.020 do contraception like the culture does, but we do use fertility awareness and make those

00:21:38.380 best judgments about when to maybe pursue having a child or when to, uh, you know, intentionally

00:21:44.380 like we want to have a child, we're going to make sure we're having, you know, an intimate

00:21:47.640 during, uh, when we're ovulation, exactly.

00:21:50.840 But that there's still this posture.

00:21:52.580 I think the posture is important.

00:21:53.720 There's still the posture of openness to life that, cause, cause keep in mind every time

00:21:59.180 a life comes into existence, that's God's work.

00:22:02.340 God creates that soul.

00:22:03.700 Yeah.

00:22:04.260 You know, that is a, that is an act of God.

00:22:06.280 Yeah.

00:22:06.560 And so there's a beautiful confidence in that, that there's no life that comes to us by accident.

00:22:12.020 And that, I think my parents, I know that was their posture again, they were Protestants.

00:22:16.480 Their posture was like, these are from, these children are from God.

00:22:19.300 So we're just going to say yes to, yes to whatever God may give.

00:22:23.280 Okay.

00:22:23.720 Something I've gotten a lot, and you've probably gotten this too, when it comes to IVF, um,

00:22:28.380 that God is the giver of life.

00:22:30.060 And therefore, even though scientists and doctors are bringing together the sperm and the embryo,

00:22:36.220 it always has to be God who gives the spark of life.

00:22:39.260 So God is in IVF.

00:22:41.020 That's what some defenders of IVF say.

00:22:44.480 Um, and so I think I know what your response would be, but what would you say?

00:22:48.640 Yeah.

00:22:49.320 I've definitely heard that as well, Allie.

00:22:51.680 And it is true that those are precious human beings made in God's image.

00:22:55.900 So that is, but God respects human freedom.

00:22:58.520 Like if we have technologies to manipulate life, to create life in a test tube, God respects

00:23:03.540 our power to do that.

00:23:04.480 And he, he is allowing it just like, and not to say that IVF is like rape because they're

00:23:09.000 obviously very different, but in a, in a situation of sex outside of marriage or sexual assault

00:23:16.000 or any other situation that there's immoral acts taking place, right?

00:23:20.360 And a life comes into existence.

00:23:21.680 That's still God, you know, in that life, bringing that life into the world.

00:23:25.540 But the act that brought that life into existence, that was, that was not the moral act.

00:23:30.340 Right.

00:23:30.580 So the act that brings life into existence can be immoral, but the bringing of the life

00:23:34.860 into existence is never immoral.

00:23:36.220 And I think that's the distinction that a lot of people maybe philosophically aren't,

00:23:39.940 aren't seeing with IVF.

00:23:41.380 In IVF, you are taking life out of the natural order where children deserve to be conceived

00:23:46.420 in a loving, in the loving marital embrace.

00:23:48.360 They deserve to be conceived in love.

00:23:50.020 It's a natural order.

00:23:50.860 And there's a lot of protective mechanisms in God's providence for that child.

00:23:55.700 If they're conceived that way, we know those protective elements just on its face, looking

00:23:59.680 at the fact that, as you've talked about many times, a million babies frozen in IVF

00:24:03.560 clinics, 7% of these babies make it out alive.

00:24:06.800 Many are destroyed, destroyed or miscarried.

00:24:09.280 The levels of risk for them are so high and the destruction is so high.

00:24:12.840 The natural order is much more designed for their safety and their nourishing.

00:24:17.060 So IVF is wrong.

00:24:19.020 The act of IVF is wrong.

00:24:20.440 But what is not wrong is that new human life.

00:24:23.120 Right.

00:24:23.600 The baby is always a blessing.

00:24:26.080 Yes.

00:24:26.260 But that doesn't mean that we are endorsing every method of making a baby.

00:24:32.040 And that's why I really get frustrated with what I kind of think is a form of emotional

00:24:37.040 manipulation when we talk about the ethics or the lack of ethics in IVF.

00:24:41.900 And then we get, well, you're saying that my baby shouldn't be here.

00:24:44.480 You're saying that my child is not a blessing.

00:24:46.860 And I understand for someone who has conceived their children through IVF, you're looking in

00:24:50.760 their face every day.

00:24:52.080 You love them so much.

00:24:53.180 They're an image bearer of God to separate that child from the means by which you had

00:24:59.820 that child would be really tough.

00:25:01.360 I've seen people do it though, because God can work in your heart and allow you to do

00:25:05.360 that.

00:25:05.740 But I understand that it's really difficult.

00:25:08.300 And I just wish there were a little bit more of an honest conversation between those who are

00:25:14.220 for IVF and against IVF.

00:25:16.100 Can we at least acknowledge that we're not demonizing the people who are created?

00:25:22.020 But it turns into that very quickly, which makes the debate and discussion difficult,

00:25:26.160 even among professing Christians, which is really like my biggest frustration.

00:25:32.700 I know the Catholic Church itself has been really clear on this, and that's something I'm very

00:25:36.240 thankful for.

00:25:37.460 Their stance on IVF, their stance on procreation.

00:25:40.380 But I imagine, I don't know the numbers on it, I imagine there are a lot of professing

00:25:44.620 Catholics who aren't against it, who might not know the church's teachings, I guess,

00:25:49.560 and who would support it.

00:25:51.600 Do you find that as you're talking in Catholic circles that some Catholics just like, they

00:25:56.280 just don't know?

00:25:57.120 Yeah.

00:25:57.620 There's definitely a lot of Catholics who are not catechized.

00:26:00.580 So they're not well-formed in their faith.

00:26:02.240 Because I think in the Catholic space, particularly, there is this passing on of the sacraments,

00:26:08.120 right, that Catholic parents will give to their children typically, right?

00:26:11.460 Not always, but typically.

00:26:12.840 But if they're not including a deeper understanding of those sacraments they're receiving and the

00:26:18.800 faith that they're being given, right, then they might be doing the motions of that.

00:26:23.620 And the motions still have power.

00:26:24.940 Baptism is still baptism, even if I didn't understand what was happening when I was baptized.

00:26:28.220 But they still have power.

00:26:29.680 But I may myself not be able to correspond to the graces that God wants to give me to

00:26:33.720 live a Christian life, right?

00:26:35.680 So that's the piece that is the state of American Catholicism today, is that there's a lot of

00:26:40.860 uncatechized Catholics.

00:26:42.040 They don't even believe in the true presence, the real presence in the Eucharist.

00:26:46.000 They don't understand the church's teaching on contraception or sex.

00:26:49.840 And there's a lot of good intentions, but there's a lot of confusion.

00:26:53.120 And that exists in the Protestant community too, but I can particularly speak to it in the

00:26:57.340 Catholic world because the teachings are so clear, you know?

00:27:00.140 Yeah.

00:27:00.480 You can open the catechism, you can read, you know, encyclicals, you can obviously go to

00:27:04.220 Holy Scripture and the teachings are there.

00:27:06.140 Yeah.

00:27:06.560 And what's beautiful about, you know, I'm so grateful as a Catholic is, you know, people

00:27:10.360 say, well, the Pope, you know, he has his issues.

00:27:12.160 Well, of course, he is himself an imperfect man.

00:27:15.240 But when he's speaking in authority as the head of the church, speaking for the church in

00:27:20.920 matters of faith and morals, and this is magisterial doctrine.

00:27:23.560 And then we can understand how to interpret things like IVF as an example, you know, things

00:27:29.440 like, you know, human cloning, all of these technologies that are coming down the pike.

00:27:34.760 Obviously the word IVF is not in Holy Scripture, right?

00:27:38.440 A lot of the word contraception specifically, there's a lot of words, even the word Trinity

00:27:42.540 is not in Holy Scripture.

00:27:43.700 So how do we take Holy Scripture, the early traditions of the early Christians and understand

00:27:49.920 how to apply those to the modern life?

00:27:52.280 And, you know, I, so the teaching exists.

00:27:55.400 I just think it's not clear to enough Catholics.

00:27:59.640 Is it possible for the Pope speaking out of authority, not just sending like a tweet or

00:28:04.740 something, but speaking out of authority, is it possible for him to be wrong in, in accordance

00:28:09.900 with the Catholic feel?

00:28:11.080 Not when he is speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals.

00:28:15.220 Which is rare, right?

00:28:16.220 Which is rare.

00:28:16.840 That doesn't happen very often.

00:28:17.380 It's rare.

00:28:17.920 Exactly.

00:28:18.480 That's exactly right.

00:28:19.180 And for the whole of Christendom.

00:28:22.060 So it has to be a directive for, this is for all, this is binding for all Christians.

00:28:26.080 What's an example of that?

00:28:27.700 An encyclical would be an example of that.

00:28:29.480 And these are very formal, beautifully written.

00:28:31.780 I mean, they're so rich.

00:28:32.820 Oh my gosh.

00:28:33.320 But they're these beautifully written, like Humanae Vitae is an example, condemning abortion

00:28:37.620 and contraception, right?

00:28:38.740 And it really makes the philosophical case for it, it makes the theological case for it.

00:28:43.420 And there are these like rich documents that are just carefully articulated.

00:28:47.440 I mean, every letter is carefully articulated because it's binding for Mother Church, not

00:28:52.340 just today, but for all time.

00:28:54.420 And, you know, they're rare.

00:28:55.880 There's not like endless encyclicals, but you're going to get maybe a few in, in any given

00:29:01.340 papacy.

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00:30:25.220 Okay, here's a question that I have.

00:30:31.500 And it's not supposed to be antagonistic, but it goes on based on something you just said

00:30:35.460 about a lot of Catholics being uncatechized.

00:30:40.320 And as a Protestant, I'm sure that you get a lot of messages and comments from Protestants

00:30:44.960 saying you shouldn't be Catholic.

00:30:46.620 And here's why.

00:30:47.600 I get a ton of messages.

00:30:49.380 And so sometimes when I talk about my Protestant beliefs, people will be like, why do you feel

00:30:55.220 they need to talk about this?

00:30:55.900 I'm like, I get so many messages, some of them from totally well-meaning Catholics who

00:31:01.280 are just devout Catholics, and they love me, and they want me to know what Catholic doctrine

00:31:05.840 teaches.

00:31:06.200 I was going to say, the Catholics love you.

00:31:07.500 Yes, and we have like a great – and then sometimes, as I'm sure you get from the evangelical

00:31:11.460 side, sometimes they're super antagonistic and rude and like, you know, not persuasive.

00:31:17.060 And I'm not saying that's indicative of Catholics.

00:31:19.440 That just happens to be indicative of some online discourse.

00:31:22.800 But something that I hear a lot is that the church has always been so clear on this and – or

00:31:29.200 X, Y, Z, whatever it is – and Protestantism has given way to division.

00:31:35.560 And the Catholic Church is unified, but Protestantism, the fruit of it is this dissension and all

00:31:41.080 of these denominations.

00:31:43.220 And yet, when you look at statistically what professing Catholics say they believe and what

00:31:50.540 professing Protestants say they believe, it seems to me, if we are to believe a Pew Research

00:31:56.460 or something like that, that Protestants, when it comes to things like abortion, when it comes

00:32:01.620 to things like homosexuality, statistically, we're a lot more united on – this is what

00:32:06.860 the Bible says, homosexuality is a sin, abortion is a sin, and should be illegal, not just here,

00:32:12.220 but also in South America.

00:32:14.000 Whereas, it's like 68% of Catholics, according to Pew Research, people who call themselves Catholics.

00:32:21.400 Well, I think that's the distinction.

00:32:22.560 Who are – like, say that they're pro-choice.

00:32:25.420 And so my question is, if, like, the Catholic Church is a bastion of unity, why are professing

00:32:31.800 Catholics so disunified when it comes to these really big moral theological issues?

00:32:40.080 It was like – I'll have to look it up – a huge – it was like 70% of Catholics believe

00:32:44.340 that non-Christians can go to heaven, according to Pew Research.

00:32:47.320 That's, like, huge.

00:32:49.640 Well, let's set that one aside for a minute, because it's like, what do you mean by a non-Christian

00:32:53.800 going to heaven?

00:32:54.340 Because God can do whatever He wants, because He's God.

00:32:57.440 And He's not bound to our ideas of Him.

00:33:00.320 He is God.

00:33:01.280 So could there be someone at the moment of death that Jesus appears to them, you know,

00:33:04.820 and they're given the opportunity to say yes to God and His love?

00:33:09.000 Absolutely.

00:33:09.680 So in that sense, it's a non-Christian in our view.

00:33:11.800 Oh, see, I would call that – I would call them a Christian.

00:33:14.240 I would say if they, you know –

00:33:15.220 Well, of course they're a Christian in heaven.

00:33:16.960 There are only Christians in heaven.

00:33:18.500 That's true.

00:33:19.320 So I think these – again, these words might mean even different things to people and might

00:33:23.240 be lending some of the confusion.

00:33:25.260 But listen, I would have to look at that particular study.

00:33:28.580 I do know for a fact, I would agree with you, that especially if it's a Catholic in name

00:33:32.200 only, kind of like the Easter Catholic, the Christmas Catholic, they're not a daily – certainly

00:33:36.780 not a daily Mass Catholic, and they're not a weekly Mass Catholic, right?

00:33:39.680 This is not something that is – you know, they don't even understand the first thing

00:33:43.000 of, oh, if it missed Mass on a Sunday, unless of some significant reason or illness, that's

00:33:48.400 a mortal sin.

00:33:49.860 Like, it's a big deal.

00:33:51.040 You don't do that.

00:33:51.700 Or if you do that, you go to confession afterwards.

00:33:54.020 Those Catholics, I would guess – I don't know the study that you looked at.

00:33:58.220 Based on my experience and the research I've seen, they're going to be pretty pro-life

00:34:02.700 and pretty down the line on – largely speaking on sexual ethics.

00:34:06.360 There's still going to be confusion even on contraception and IVF, things of this nature.

00:34:10.400 But I think that cohort, they're doing the weekly gathering as God is commanded of worship

00:34:17.040 of the Mass, right?

00:34:18.720 So I think it would depend on the groups we're comparing, quite frankly, because I do know

00:34:22.560 the idea of I'm a believer, I'm a Christian, or I'm an evangelical can be very watered down

00:34:28.800 here in the United States and globally in terms of what that means with morality, right?

00:34:34.320 I think what matters is not so much – I think two things matter.

00:34:39.560 The teaching itself, right?

00:34:41.380 What does the teaching say about matters of faith and morals, and is it true or not, right?

00:34:46.160 Is what the Catholic Church is saying true or not?

00:34:48.480 And then number two, the fruit does matter.

00:34:50.520 Like you're saying, the fruit does matter, but you have to look at the full picture of

00:34:53.720 the fruit.

00:34:54.820 And for the Catholic Church, we look at 2,000 years of Christendom, and we look at the

00:35:00.260 sacraments and –

00:35:01.160 Which, of course, Protestants would dispute because we don't believe that the Catholic

00:35:03.900 Church was established by Jesus 2,000 years ago.

00:35:06.360 I know that's what Catholic teaching teaches, but Protestants don't believe that.

00:35:11.740 We believe that Jesus created the global church, and he created Christians.

00:35:16.180 And when he says to Peter, on this rock, I will build my church, we don't believe that

00:35:20.000 he's making Peter a pope.

00:35:22.040 And when we look at – like I hear Catholics say a lot that we are worshiping how the earliest

00:35:28.020 Christians worshiped, and this is historic Christianity, but the only infallible, inerrant,

00:35:34.260 and totally authoritative record of the early church that we have is the Bible.

00:35:40.500 I think Catholics would agree on that.

00:35:42.360 The only inerrant one.

00:35:44.840 Right?

00:35:45.280 But it's only inerrant because there was a church council that came together to declare

00:35:49.300 it inerrant.

00:35:50.300 Because you have the Didache.

00:35:51.240 It's inerrant because the Holy Spirit inspired it.

00:35:55.000 And I don't think that all Protestants would dispute everything that Catholic councils have

00:36:01.100 agreed upon throughout the time.

00:36:03.960 But we would say, okay, if we look at Acts, if we look at the epistles, do we see Roman

00:36:11.340 Catholicism?

00:36:12.480 Like is there mention of a pontiff of Rome or a vicar of Christ?

00:36:15.760 Is there a mention of like praying to Mary or praying to the saints?

00:36:20.880 There's – to me, I see – I see zero implication of those things at all.

00:36:25.760 There is no command to pray or to venerate or honor Mary at all.

00:36:30.440 There is no talk of Peter being the head of the church.

00:36:34.660 And so I don't see a reflection of Roman Catholic doctrine and worship in the earliest record of

00:36:43.100 how the early Christians worshipped in Acts and the epistles.

00:36:47.700 So when I hear it's 2,000 years old, like, well, then why don't we see that in the Bible?

00:36:53.180 Well, I would argue that we do see it in the Bible.

00:36:55.360 And you do see Peter taking on teaching authority in the Bible in Acts.

00:36:59.280 And you do see there – if you look at the early church's history, right?

00:37:03.520 And it's not captured in Holy Scripture because Holy Scripture, I think it ends as it – I don't

00:37:08.200 want to get this wrong here, but is it 70 AD?

00:37:09.960 I mean, it really doesn't go –

00:37:11.460 Yeah, decades after.

00:37:12.040 It doesn't go much further than that.

00:37:13.520 So there's a whole world of Christianity that happens after the canon of the Bible

00:37:17.300 concludes time-wise.

00:37:19.740 Now, it wasn't established for a few hundred years after that, right, in terms of this

00:37:23.460 is the canon of the Bible.

00:37:24.580 But there's a whole world, and there's a lot of documents and writings from the church

00:37:29.040 fathers, which are so rich, where you learn about how they applied what that early church

00:37:33.520 was doing just a decade after Christ or two decades after Christ when St. Paul's traveling

00:37:37.520 around and preaching at people, where you not just see what they were doing in just a few

00:37:42.040 decades after Christ, but then what they were doing a hundred years after Christ and two

00:37:45.180 hundred years after Christ, and how they passed on the traditions that were established by Jesus

00:37:51.040 Christ.

00:37:51.600 Now, a tradition that's established in first century Roman Empire, right, will inherently

00:38:00.440 have a different context in 21st century America, of course.

00:38:05.780 But the core will be the same.

00:38:07.960 So, for example, Eucharist, this is my bread, this is my body, this is my blood given for

00:38:11.660 you, eat and drink, right, and coming together in the breaking of the bread, which is talked

00:38:15.860 about in the book of Acts.

00:38:17.220 Or the fact that they would do preaching, right, as the liturgy of the word, often in the synagogues

00:38:22.300 in just the decades after Christ resurrected.

00:38:25.680 And then they would unascend it, and then they would do the breaking of the bread privately

00:38:30.460 because that was more controversial, and that was the Christian element, the preaching of

00:38:34.760 the word could be more what had been done in the synagogue historically.

00:38:37.940 So that's what the mass is.

00:38:39.780 It's the liturgy of the word, and it's the liturgy of the Eucharist.

00:38:42.180 It's going to look different in a 21st century American church than it looked in a synagogue

00:38:45.740 and a house church or a home, a private family home, back in the time of the early, early

00:38:51.740 Roman Empire.

00:38:52.440 And then you have the Christians going underground with Roman persecution, and you have the Christianity

00:38:58.520 spreading globally and how it's now taken a new life in all these different cultures

00:39:03.300 and continents, but you have core elements that remain the same.

00:39:07.940 And those core elements are Eucharist, their baptism, their confession, their confirmation,

00:39:14.140 their marriage.

00:39:15.680 Dunking baptism is what Jesus did and what we see throughout Scripture.

00:39:19.640 We don't actually see a baby being baptized.

00:39:22.860 So you're saying you don't think the Catholics baptize their babies actually?

00:39:26.780 No.

00:39:27.460 I think the model of baptism that we see in the New Testament is dunking baptism after

00:39:32.860 someone has become a believer.

00:39:34.540 I have Presbyterian friends.

00:39:36.980 I don't think it's wrong in a dedication.

00:39:38.540 So the head is fully covered with water.

00:39:41.020 You need to – you're not putting the baby underneath the water in baptism.

00:39:45.980 Right.

00:39:46.540 But you are covering the head with water.

00:39:48.520 And so I'm saying that the New Testament doesn't support the idea of sprinkling babies.

00:39:53.020 I wouldn't.

00:39:53.680 That's what the – I mean, most Protestants believe.

00:39:56.760 I think even Presbyterians, my Presbyterian friends can correct me because they do baby

00:40:02.100 baptism.

00:40:02.620 But they – I think they have different beliefs about what that baby baptism actually represents

00:40:09.040 than Catholics do, whereas I'm Baptist.

00:40:11.520 And so we believe only in believer's baptism.

00:40:14.360 After you believe in your heart, confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, you

00:40:17.920 probably even go through like a new Christians class just to make sure you really understand

00:40:21.340 the gospel and have really accepted it.

00:40:23.580 And then we see it as an outward symbol of an inward regeneration.

00:40:28.840 And we believe that that's what we see throughout Scripture, that baptism always followed belief

00:40:34.560 and that Jesus gives us his example of baptism in actually being abducted.

00:40:39.300 But it followed the belief of adults, you're right, and the heads of households.

00:40:42.700 But a couple important points.

00:40:44.200 In Acts, there is Scripture that talks about the whole household being baptized after the

00:40:49.600 ascent of the lead of the household.

00:40:52.240 I think the safe assumption is that probably the whole household believed.

00:40:56.500 But if you're a child, you wouldn't be excluded.

00:40:58.600 Jesus said so many times, let the little ones come unto me.

00:41:01.380 Yeah.

00:41:01.720 And we believe the children can get baptized.

00:41:03.280 You don't have to be an adult.

00:41:04.620 But it's not biblical, Allie.

00:41:05.980 It's not biblical to say that the children were excluded from baptism.

00:41:08.400 I didn't say that.

00:41:09.300 But you're saying that the child, if they can't physically profess the words of Jesus and

00:41:14.060 have this belief, whatever that means exactly, for a little child, then they can't be baptized.

00:41:18.620 And I think that's wrong.

00:41:19.280 Of course we should baptize our babies.

00:41:19.860 I would argue that.

00:41:20.560 That is the Baptist position, that baptism should always follow belief.

00:41:24.320 But I would say include the baby.

00:41:25.080 Even if you're – it could be three.

00:41:26.600 You could be three years old.

00:41:27.680 But no, we don't – I mean, we just don't believe in baby baptism.

00:41:30.180 But I'm just saying it's –

00:41:30.920 And I don't think we see a clear example of that in Scripture.

00:41:32.980 Well, I think it is pretty clear in the teachings of Jesus about children and in the

00:41:36.820 baptizing of household.

00:41:37.760 And there's no note about excluding the babies.

00:41:39.900 I don't think you would exclude your child.

00:41:41.100 We also don't know that there's a baby.

00:41:43.220 That's an assumption that there's a baby and they're baptized.

00:41:45.840 We don't have no idea.

00:41:46.660 The youngest could be 12.

00:41:48.560 That is true.

00:41:49.560 But typically whole households are going to inevitably involve some children, very young

00:41:54.480 children.

00:41:54.940 It seems like a leap.

00:41:56.220 So I don't think so.

00:41:57.780 But then you look at just the traditions of the early Christians.

00:42:02.540 You don't have to call them Catholics in this moment if you're not comfortable with

00:42:05.340 that.

00:42:05.500 But they baptize their babies.

00:42:07.020 That's a tradition that's 2,000 years old.

00:42:08.780 Do we see that in Scripture?

00:42:11.200 Well, we were just talking about Scripture.

00:42:12.480 And you said, well, the household didn't explicitly say baby.

00:42:15.080 So you said, I don't buy that.

00:42:16.520 But I'm saying, well, if you look at how they practiced baptism in the early church,

00:42:20.420 they were baptizing their babies.

00:42:22.200 That was a common practice.

00:42:23.560 So where do we read that?

00:42:25.260 I don't disbelieve that necessarily because there's a lot of things that the early church

00:42:28.740 practiced that we don't necessarily practice today and shouldn't practice today.

00:42:32.440 That's why Paul had so many letters to write.

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00:43:45.960 I have a question for you.

00:43:47.240 When do you think that—you're saying the Catholic Church was not founded with Jesus

00:43:50.900 Christ and with Peter.

00:43:52.100 So I'm curious when you think it was founded.

00:43:54.280 I don't know exactly when it was founded.

00:43:56.060 I know that—and you can correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm sure that you know more

00:44:00.080 about Catholic history than I do.

00:44:02.120 But from my understanding, the establishment of the official papacy was really kind of rallied

00:44:08.100 around about 500 years after Christ.

00:44:10.540 Like, would you say Gregory I—I know that you probably wouldn't say that he was the

00:44:14.380 first pope, because I know Catholics assert that Peter was the first pope.

00:44:18.160 But if I remember correctly, there was something significant about Gregory I being like a singular

00:44:26.000 pope.

00:44:26.380 Because before that, there was debate over how many popes and which pope was what and what

00:44:32.800 kind of authority he had.

00:44:34.080 So it seems like authority solidified, at least, if I can say it more generously or charitably,

00:44:40.260 about 500 years after Christ died.

00:44:42.180 I wouldn't read it that way.

00:44:43.200 I would say more that the bishop of Rome was given a special deference.

00:44:47.700 And there was debate later on, especially with orthodoxy and Catholicism, about, okay,

00:44:52.420 well, who gets—who's kind of the final say amongst the bishops?

00:44:55.680 Or who's the—you could say the tiebreaker of sorts?

00:44:57.680 Or who's going to—where does it—you could say the word solidify the authority over where

00:45:01.280 does it kind of land, ultimately?

00:45:03.160 And the bishop of Rome, you know, the Holy See, Peter, is where—you know, the pope is where

00:45:07.720 it lands.

00:45:08.540 And so there was definitely, at a certain point, debate about that, especially when you

00:45:13.480 had bishops that didn't want to obey Rome.

00:45:17.480 And then you have the schism, right?

00:45:19.140 So that did happen.

00:45:20.820 And that's, in my view, tragic.

00:45:22.940 Because I think we're all meant to be one.

00:45:24.900 But I think that Jesus didn't create his church to leave her without authority and without

00:45:32.040 guidance.

00:45:32.540 Because he said, the gates of hell will not prevail.

00:45:34.200 And, you know, he said, well, that's not necessarily to popes, but he did intend for

00:45:37.260 us to be one.

00:45:37.920 He did intend for there to be one teaching.

00:45:39.860 He did intend for there to be one breaking of the bread.

00:45:42.700 And I think right now, you go globally to any Catholic church, and you're going to see

00:45:46.640 the same things.

00:45:47.360 You're going to see different cultural elements, of course, but you're going to see core things

00:45:51.180 that are the same.

00:45:51.780 The breaking of the bread, the liturgy of the mass, the same readings are said, you know,

00:45:56.020 by millions or a billion Catholics every single—

00:45:58.860 And I do think there's something beautiful about that.

00:46:00.360 But I think that's—it's not just a Catholic thing.

00:46:03.160 I think that's meant to be a Christian experience, that we are all united in that

00:46:07.240 way.

00:46:07.480 And I hunger for that.

00:46:09.420 And I know, like, I'm going to guess your heart is there, too, that we want Christian

00:46:13.340 unity.

00:46:14.040 We want people to know us by our unity, by our love, by the sign of Jesus, of course,

00:46:19.800 working in us and the Holy Spirit working in us.

00:46:21.520 And I think that there's—I think knowing our history as Christians is so important.

00:46:27.160 I know you said, well, you know, just because the early church fathers said it doesn't

00:46:30.300 mean it's true, well, I think we have to really examine what they were saying, what

00:46:35.140 they were teaching, and look at the trajectory of Christianity when we're dealing with today

00:46:41.040 with modernity, this upsetting, quite frankly, of tradition and this upsetting of history

00:46:47.340 where it's like, we're going to decide because we're the smartest ones on the block.

00:46:51.800 And it's like, wait a minute, there's 2,000 years of other smart human beings post-Christ.

00:46:55.480 You know, we should take a look at what they said and did.

00:46:59.860 That a lot of people who deconstruct who think they're the first people to ask difficult

00:47:04.500 theological and apologetic questions.

00:47:06.100 And it's also the me and my Bible thing.

00:47:07.780 I mean, we should read Holy Scripture.

00:47:10.080 We should—this is the words of God.

00:47:12.380 They have the power to create incredible inspiration and change in us.

00:47:17.320 I mean, that is a gift that God has given us, beautifully so.

00:47:21.440 But it's not just me and my Bible, one man, an island.

00:47:24.300 It's meant to be me and my Bible and the church and the communion of the brethren.

00:47:29.980 And Protestants believe that.

00:47:31.580 We don't believe it's just me and my Bible.

00:47:33.540 But we do believe in the authority of the local church.

00:47:36.280 We do believe in theologians and mentors and teachers.

00:47:39.080 There are some traditions that we hold to.

00:47:41.560 It's really like what I see with Catholics and Protestants.

00:47:45.020 It's really not unity versus disunity because, as we've already talked about,

00:47:49.280 there's plenty of disunity within the Catholic Church, even if the catechism is clear.

00:47:53.720 Like, I just had a sweet Catholic older couple come up to me the other day,

00:47:57.440 and they said, you know, we're so excited to go to Santa Fe.

00:48:00.600 I guess there is some Catholic—he said something about, like,

00:48:04.120 it's important for a Catholic something in Santa Fe.

00:48:06.300 And he said, what the—would it be the bishop?

00:48:11.080 I forget which leader it was, or the priest, maybe, of the church that they were going to go to,

00:48:16.020 sent an email out, like, opposing Trump's immigration policy

00:48:21.740 and supporting our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

00:48:25.980 And obviously, we have a lot of problems with that within Protestantism, too.

00:48:29.600 So I'm not singling out Catholics.

00:48:31.840 But it seems to me, like, even if the Catholic Church is clear,

00:48:35.460 there is plenty of disunity within the Catholic Church.

00:48:38.740 Well, there's—the Catholic Church isn't going to tell you what political label to take on.

00:48:42.440 And it's not going to prescribe very specific political policies.

00:48:44.920 That would be wrong.

00:48:45.880 But it is going to provide principles.

00:48:47.640 And you might have any number of priests who will say,

00:48:49.760 well, I'm going to take the principle and say, you should vote for X, Y, Z.

00:48:53.540 And they have, you know, to some degree the freedom to say that they should be—

00:48:56.920 maybe they're going to get in trouble with a bishop, you know,

00:48:59.300 eventually if they're being too aggressive,

00:49:00.620 because they're not supposed to be telling people how to vote necessarily, right,

00:49:03.920 in terms of a specific candidate.

00:49:05.180 But there are principles that we all share, including on immigration,

00:49:09.800 including on respect for persons who struggle with same-sex attraction

00:49:12.640 and how that, you know, plays out in even political discourse.

00:49:16.140 And that doesn't mean that they are supporting open borders

00:49:19.220 or they're supporting, you know, gay marriage or anything.

00:49:22.220 No, the Church is very clear that a nation has a right to national sovereignty

00:49:25.840 and a right to borders.

00:49:26.840 And borders are a necessary and good thing for the protection of a nation.

00:49:30.600 And that, you know, sex is for one man, one woman in a marriage,

00:49:33.820 and any sexual activity outside of that is wrong.

00:49:36.060 So the Church is not—there's no confusion on that point,

00:49:38.860 but the opinions, any number of Catholics will have opinions, right?

00:49:42.340 And that's a normal thing.

00:49:44.140 I think with Protestantism is, you know, and there's so much to Protestantism.

00:49:49.220 There's Baptists, right?

00:49:50.380 There's Presbyterians, like you mentioned earlier.

00:49:51.860 So I don't want to paint too broadly with one brush.

00:49:54.120 But you go to a church service in any number of a Protestant church

00:49:58.640 on a Sunday morning anywhere in the world,

00:50:00.440 it will be very different in terms of what you're getting and even being taught.

00:50:06.280 You go to a Catholic Mass, it is the same Mass in every church,

00:50:11.480 Catholic church around the world.

00:50:13.240 The same words are being spoken in the Liturgy of the Word.

00:50:16.480 The same words are being spoken in the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

00:50:19.340 The same Eucharist is being celebrated.

00:50:20.780 And I think that's the unity that, you know, is so beautiful to me.

00:50:25.100 Yeah.

00:50:25.540 I just wonder why—okay, let me read some statistics, and you can tell me.

00:50:29.260 Now, I don't think that—I will say—

00:50:31.540 By the way, thanks for having this convo.

00:50:33.260 What?

00:50:33.880 Thank you.

00:50:34.380 I love this convo.

00:50:35.140 Yes.

00:50:35.160 Okay.

00:50:35.520 And we only have a few minutes.

00:50:36.920 I respect you so much, and I appreciate you getting to talk to me.

00:50:39.260 Well, me too.

00:50:39.640 And Brie is telling me that we have to wrap soon.

00:50:41.280 So I want to say this, and then I have one other question.

00:50:43.060 Part two on my show, Allie.

00:50:44.060 Yes.

00:50:44.320 I have a question about Mary, because that is maybe like one of my biggest points of confusion.

00:50:50.200 And, okay, so we're talking about the fruit.

00:50:52.960 And this, I don't know if it is completely fair, because who knows how Pew is defining

00:50:57.340 Catholic and evangelical.

00:50:59.140 And evangelical is like a part of Protestant, and they're weighing Catholics as a whole.

00:51:03.480 So maybe that's not completely fair.

00:51:04.920 Let me just say that up front.

00:51:06.260 But this is according to Pew Research.

00:51:07.640 So 60% of Catholics believe that abortion should be legal in all or most cases, versus

00:51:12.680 27% of evangelicals.

00:51:14.820 They look at Argentina specifically.

00:51:17.140 76% of Protestants want abortion illegal, versus only 59% of Catholics.

00:51:22.100 62% of Catholics believe casual sex is fine, versus only 36% of evangelicals.

00:51:27.380 Only 33% of Catholics say homosexuality is a sin, versus 62% of evangelicals.

00:51:31.820 Well, there's a distinction there.

00:51:33.000 They're saying that to have same-sex attractions is not the sin.

00:51:36.260 But that's different than the gay lifestyle.

00:51:37.700 So I think that's also just how the questions are asked.

00:51:39.860 But keep going.

00:51:40.740 Maybe Catholics have like a different understanding.

00:51:44.140 Like the word, like when you say this is being homosexual a sin, what does that mean?

00:51:48.300 Is having like an intense same-sex attraction and desire a sin?

00:51:52.640 No, because you don't have control over that.

00:51:55.400 What would be a sin is to act on it.

00:51:57.540 Yeah.

00:51:58.120 We probably have some disagreements there.

00:51:59.960 I think it's a disordered desire.

00:52:01.800 No, we agree on that.

00:52:02.920 At the very least.

00:52:03.460 We agree.

00:52:03.860 But if your young child is severely tempted to something, that doesn't mean they are sinning

00:52:08.620 by being tempted.

00:52:09.460 To be tempted is not to sin.

00:52:11.100 To act upon the temptation is to sin.

00:52:12.780 So the question is, with all of the unity that you just described and all of the differences

00:52:18.720 within Protestantism that you just described, even evangelical churches, evangelical could

00:52:22.680 be Baptist, it could be a different denomination.

00:52:25.220 And yet, at least according to these statistics, which people can say, I don't trust peer research

00:52:29.820 and that's their prerogative, but evangelicals are actually a lot more aligned with what the

00:52:36.020 Bible actually teaches on those things, and we're a lot more unified.

00:52:38.540 So it might be true that you could go to our local congregations and you could hear a different

00:52:42.420 sermon, you could hear a different passage, you could hear different songs, songs.

00:52:45.060 How do you define evangelical?

00:52:46.460 Is that a Baptist?

00:52:47.600 Like, who is an evangelical?

00:52:48.960 An evangelical Christian would be someone who believes in the gospel, that you have to

00:52:55.640 be saved by Jesus Christ in order to be saved, and that we are evangelistic in our

00:53:00.140 faith, that we are going out and we are sharing the gospel and we are trying to get

00:53:04.440 people to become Christian.

00:53:05.780 So is there like a...

00:53:06.260 Mainline Protestants who are like, I would consider that progressive Episcopal, for example, a

00:53:12.380 lot of Methodists, even some Presbyterians, are not evangelical.

00:53:15.500 So who would be the earliest evangelical Christian in your view?

00:53:19.020 I don't know.

00:53:19.780 I'm not sure who the earliest evangelical Christian would be.

00:53:20.860 And the reason I'm asking is because I think you're right in that, like, if you look

00:53:24.420 at mainland Protestantism and you look at Catholics, especially the Catholics kind of in culture,

00:53:28.500 but not necessarily the Catholics in practice, right, you're going to see those numbers.

00:53:32.720 So I'm not denying those numbers.

00:53:34.300 And I think today there's this born-again Christian sort of identity that's very beautiful

00:53:38.700 that a lot of people experience where they say, I just want to 100% follow Jesus.

00:53:43.000 It's just whatever he says.

00:53:44.380 And they are willing to do the harder things morally.

00:53:47.380 But that doesn't mean that the teachings of the Catholic Church or the 2,000 years of

00:53:51.420 fruit there, I know we're debating about the history, isn't real.

00:53:54.240 It means that there's a catechesis crisis in the Catholic Church.

00:53:57.880 That's what I wanted to ask you, if that's what you think the answer is.

00:54:00.640 Oh, for sure.

00:54:01.440 For sure.

00:54:02.140 There's a catechesis crisis in the Catholic Church.

00:54:04.340 And I would say there's a catechesis crisis, formation crisis largely in civilization, broadly,

00:54:12.060 more broadly speaking.

00:54:13.080 I agree that I think Protestants do too.

00:54:14.960 I think we should employ, like the Westminster Catechism, I think we should do a better job

00:54:19.420 of knowing the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed.

00:54:21.880 That's something we agree on is the Nicene Creed.

00:54:23.820 And I think that we should do a better job as Protestants of knowing those things too.

00:54:29.100 So I'm with you on that.

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00:55:11.460 You can use my code Allie for a free month of service.

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00:55:19.060 Okay, last question.

00:55:25.680 Sorry, Brie, but I have to ask it, and I know it's a big one.

00:55:29.920 Okay, and this is genuine.

00:55:32.640 This is not like a trap question.

00:55:34.520 I really, and I asked Trent Horn this too, and I don't think I got a sufficient answer.

00:55:40.500 If Mary is the queen of heaven, if she is carrying our prayers, she has a supernatural

00:55:49.380 ability, according to Catholic teaching, to understand multiple languages, to hear multiple

00:55:53.780 prayers happening at once, I guess millions at one time, and then carry them to God.

00:55:57.900 That is a hugely significant role.

00:56:00.060 Well, just to be clear, she did not have that ability when she was here.

00:56:03.700 No, but now.

00:56:04.460 But that's only because she's in the beatific vision.

00:56:06.880 Okay.

00:56:07.160 She's one with God.

00:56:08.000 I mean, in heaven, we are in total communion with God.

00:56:10.940 So that power is not, just to be clear, that power is not of Mary's power.

00:56:14.920 That is the power that is of God.

00:56:16.280 God has given her that power.

00:56:17.640 Well, it's God's power, to be clear.

00:56:19.500 It's God's power.

00:56:19.940 Okay, but he has given it to Mary in a way that he hasn't necessarily given to others.

00:56:23.680 That's the Catholic teaching.

00:56:24.680 Not quite, no.

00:56:25.680 So everyone has the same power that Mary does in heaven?

00:56:27.520 The saints in heaven have the same power to hear the prayers of the faithful, just like

00:56:31.400 Mary.

00:56:31.760 Any Christian in heaven has the power in heaven to hear prayers.

00:56:35.180 That's Catholic teaching.

00:56:36.160 Yes.

00:56:36.380 Yes.

00:56:36.400 Okay.

00:56:37.600 My question is, we can talk about that too.

00:56:39.940 That's in revelations.

00:56:40.820 The prayers rising up to the saints in heaven, that's a revelation scene.

00:56:45.380 Revelation, yeah.

00:56:47.060 So this idea of praying to the saints in heaven is a revelations concept.

00:56:52.060 Yes, we would disagree on what that actually means and if the people who are in heaven are

00:56:58.220 carrying prayers to God.

00:56:59.260 My question about Mary, okay, whatever her power is, she is set apart from the other saints.

00:57:07.840 Well, she's the mother of God.

00:57:08.100 The mother of God.

00:57:09.060 I mean, come on.

00:57:09.520 And when you say a rosary.

00:57:10.880 She's the mother of Jesus.

00:57:11.780 So kind of a big deal.

00:57:11.860 You say a rosary every day.

00:57:13.420 Yeah.

00:57:13.600 But the rosary is meditating on the life of Christ, to be clear.

00:57:18.840 The rosary isn't an obsession with Mary per se, although she's pretty amazing.

00:57:22.980 The rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ.

00:57:25.620 It's literally a meditation on the scenes of the gospel because you have the different

00:57:28.600 mysteries of the rosary.

00:57:29.600 The whole idea of praying those prayers is to get into a meditative sort of habit of thinking

00:57:34.320 about what you're praying about, which is, you know, in the joyful mysteries, right?

00:57:37.980 It's the nativity of Jesus.

00:57:39.700 It's, you know, it's the enunciation when the angel comes to Mary.

00:57:42.420 And then you have the visitation when Elizabeth comes to Mary.

00:57:46.440 And then you have the birth and nativity of Jesus Christ, da, da, da.

00:57:49.120 Which we all believe is inerrant and beautiful and good.

00:57:51.660 And we should be reflecting on all of those.

00:57:53.680 But Mary is special in Catholic doctrine, of course.

00:57:56.080 For sure.

00:57:56.200 Not just as the mother of Jesus, but she's discussed a lot.

00:57:59.860 And I hear a lot, Mother Mary, pray for us.

00:58:02.580 Well, she's discussed a lot because she is the mother of Jesus, to be clear.

00:58:04.980 Yes.

00:58:05.100 Yeah.

00:58:05.440 More so than in Protestantism, though.

00:58:07.420 It's definitely a different level of honoring within Catholicism.

00:58:11.760 My question is, if she is to be honored in that way, if she is to be prayed to, and I

00:58:19.040 know that she is, Catholics pray through her.

00:58:22.160 Yeah.

00:58:22.780 Why don't we ever see that in Acts?

00:58:25.480 Why don't we see that in any of the epistles?

00:58:27.780 Like, why is she never mentioned once?

00:58:30.300 Why does Jesus rebuff every attempt to honor her in a special way, except for one time

00:58:35.740 when he's on the cross?

00:58:36.800 Like, why don't we see any example of praying to or through Mary in that way in Scripture

00:58:44.140 at all?

00:58:44.800 You do see it in Scripture.

00:58:46.260 In the epistles?

00:58:46.840 In the early church?

00:58:47.820 You see it in Scripture, most importantly, in the life of Jesus Christ and what he said

00:58:52.640 and how he interacted with his mother.

00:58:54.900 It's kind of rude sometimes, I think, to us, it seems like.

00:58:57.480 Well, I think with a modern lens, you might consider it rudeness, but we know that God

00:59:00.380 is not rude.

00:59:01.420 And Jesus was never rude to his mother.

00:59:03.520 Yes.

00:59:03.780 Jesus had the greatest respect.

00:59:05.100 But he would come across that way.

00:59:06.060 And I think he did, of course.

00:59:06.500 Well, that's a modern lens, though, Gali.

00:59:08.100 I think, of course, he did respect his mother.

00:59:09.340 But can I read you from Holy Scripture?

00:59:10.980 Sure.

00:59:11.240 You said, what is Mary's...

00:59:12.240 There's nothing about Mary in...

00:59:13.400 Not much about Mary in Scripture.

00:59:14.860 Not much about Mary.

00:59:15.580 There's actually a lot about Mary in Scripture.

00:59:17.080 Well, I didn't say not much about Mary in Scripture.

00:59:19.260 I said that there's nothing in the epistles or in Acts that shows us to pray to or through

00:59:25.800 Mary or honor her as the queen of heaven.

00:59:26.720 Well, she might have still been around.

00:59:27.840 That's why.

00:59:28.380 Queen of heaven.

00:59:28.860 She was probably still around quietly doing the Lord's work.

00:59:31.900 That's probably why.

00:59:32.780 But don't you think she would have been talked about at all?

00:59:34.920 Not necessarily.

00:59:35.480 Like, you don't think Paul would have written about it?

00:59:36.900 Not necessarily, no.

00:59:37.900 I mean, there might have been letters that we don't have that Paul wrote specifically

00:59:41.700 to women saying, you know, learn from the mother of Jesus.

00:59:44.460 I don't know.

00:59:45.020 But that's not...

00:59:45.660 I don't know either.

00:59:46.080 We don't know.

00:59:46.920 But what you do know is this.

00:59:48.700 This is from Holy Scripture.

00:59:51.200 This is the Magnificat when Mary is praising the Lord for choosing her to carry his son.

00:59:58.240 It's a beautiful passage.

00:59:58.760 But she says,

01:00:00.100 My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord.

01:00:01.700 My spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant.

01:00:05.560 From this day, all generations will call me blessed, for the Almighty has done great

01:00:12.180 things for me.

01:00:13.620 From this day, all generations will call me blessed.

01:00:16.700 Yes.

01:00:16.960 And amen.

01:00:17.260 And that is what Catholics are doing, and some Protestants to this day, literally when

01:00:21.840 they pray the rosary and when they honor Mary and when they celebrate Mary, the mother

01:00:25.920 of Jesus.

01:00:26.680 Yeah.

01:00:27.020 I don't think that we disagree in calling her blessed.

01:00:29.660 But I don't think you can...

01:00:30.420 She was very blessed, but we don't believe that she is carrying our prayers to Jesus

01:00:34.520 or that she has the ability to do that, or that she's the Queen of Heaven.

01:00:38.540 Well, just to be clear, when you say...

01:00:40.220 Or that she was immaculately conceived.

01:00:41.620 Just to be clear, when she's carrying our prayers to Jesus, we can pray directly to Jesus.

01:00:45.300 We should.

01:00:45.920 And to the Holy Spirit, and to God the Father, to the whole Trinity.

01:00:49.160 Mary isn't meant to be a mother for all Christians.

01:00:51.040 Like, Jesus gave her upon his death on the cross before he took his last breath.

01:00:54.560 He said, Behold your mother and behold your son.

01:00:56.700 Yes.

01:00:57.000 Everything Jesus did was with intention in Holy Scripture and was passed on by the first...

01:01:01.120 True.

01:01:01.220 ...you know, by those who wrote, recorded, right?

01:01:04.540 By the disciples who recorded it.

01:01:06.680 And when Jesus said, Behold your mother, behold your son, that wasn't just a little thing

01:01:10.400 randomly for John.

01:01:11.420 That just got happened to be included.

01:01:13.420 Because remember, I think it was St. John wrote, if all the things could be recorded,

01:01:18.380 it would take endless tomes to record them of the life of Jesus Christ.

01:01:21.980 Yes.

01:01:22.100 So it's impossible to include it all.

01:01:23.600 They chose to include that, Allie.

01:01:25.360 There's a reason they chose to include that.

01:01:27.220 Because Mary is not meant to just be, you know, God is endlessly generous.

01:01:30.320 Christ is endlessly generous.

01:01:31.600 Everything he did was for the good of Christians, right?

01:01:34.660 Long term into eternity.

01:01:36.960 His mother is also for our good.

01:01:39.300 To be an intercessor for us and to be a role model for us.

01:01:43.660 That doesn't mean his prayer, we can't go directly to Christ.

01:01:46.560 But I ask you, Allie, can you pray for me?

01:01:49.060 You know, I just asked my husband this morning, can you pray for me?

01:01:51.540 Can I go to Jesus myself?

01:01:52.760 Of course I can.

01:01:54.180 But why wouldn't I want the saints in heaven who are forever glorifying God in perfect communion

01:01:59.880 with him to pray for me in a special way, Mama Mary, who Jesus literally gave to his

01:02:05.140 disciples to be a mother and then by transfer to the rest of Christendom.

01:02:09.120 How do you interpret this verse in Luke, Luke eight, starting in 19, then his mother and

01:02:17.500 his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd.

01:02:20.540 And he was told your mother and your brothers are standing outside desiring to see you.

01:02:24.480 But he answered them.

01:02:25.240 My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.

01:02:29.960 So Jesus has multiple opportunities in scripture to specifically call out Mary and honor Mary

01:02:37.480 above the others.

01:02:38.540 And he chooses not to repeatedly.

01:02:41.020 So I disagree with that.

01:02:43.580 I think he does frequently honor his mother, especially that first scene in the wedding

01:02:47.080 feast at Cana when he talks about, uh, do whatever she tells you.

01:02:50.400 Like she literally, he literally gives the command for the events and solving the problem of there's

01:02:55.220 no wine.

01:02:55.780 We're out of wine.

01:02:56.380 It's embarrassing for the guests.

01:02:57.520 His, you know, the steward comes over and says, there's no wine.

01:03:00.880 And he says, basically talk to my mother about it.

01:03:03.200 She, she will do it.

01:03:04.540 And then he performs the miracle.

01:03:05.980 She prompts the first miracle.

01:03:08.160 Um, but to, to Luke eight.

01:03:10.020 So it, you, you can say, like you said, at first, and by the way, I want to tell everyone

01:03:13.560 about this app.

01:03:14.300 It's called truthly.

01:03:15.520 And it is an AI app that has all of faith and morals, theologically and morally correct,

01:03:21.380 unlike your typical AI.

01:03:22.740 So it's called truthly.

01:03:23.740 But you just type in, does Luke eight disrespect Mary?

01:03:26.640 Right.

01:03:26.900 In some way.

01:03:27.460 Right.

01:03:28.180 Um, and I probably shouldn't have said that earlier disrespect.

01:03:31.700 Cause like you said, and you said it completely rightly, it's not possible.

01:03:34.540 For Jesus to be rude or to be disrespectful.

01:03:36.660 But what I meant by that is if we are looking for Jesus to give her special treatment, it

01:03:41.440 might seem to us, well, he rebuffed her actually.

01:03:44.760 Well, it's not a rebuff.

01:03:45.820 It's a teaching opportunity.

01:03:46.940 And, and, and, you know, quite frankly, Ali, we weren't there, but I, I'm going to guess

01:03:50.300 like Mary knew Mary was very wise and loving and obedient.

01:03:53.360 She knew like the Lord is going to teach through this.

01:03:55.980 And it, you know, this is truthfully his explanation, which is based on the catechism, by the way,

01:03:59.260 but it says, you know, Catholic teaching emphasizes at first it might seem as if Jesus

01:04:03.300 is downplaying his relationship with Mary.

01:04:05.380 However, Catholic teaching emphasizes that this passage is not about disrespecting Mary,

01:04:09.900 but rather expanding the understanding of spiritual kinship.

01:04:13.860 In fact, Mary is the perfect example of someone who hears the word of God.

01:04:18.080 So it was a, it was a side praise and does it or yes to God.

01:04:22.300 Therefore this passage underscores her exemplary role in hearing and obeying God words.

01:04:26.540 So it's basically saying you're not special just because you're my biological mother.

01:04:29.760 You're special because you said yes to God.

01:04:32.220 And he's using this moment to say, all of you can be special too.

01:04:35.900 It's not just my mother who is special chosen by me.

01:04:38.180 Of course, she is extremely special, but I'm inviting you all to be children of my mother,

01:04:42.240 to be brothers and sisters of me by hearing my word and acting on it.

01:04:46.040 So he's beautifully allowing Mary to be an example of what true Christian living means.

01:04:50.500 Okay.

01:04:51.000 Last thing I just want to clarify in the wedding at, at the wedding at Kana or Kana, I guess

01:04:57.040 you could pronounce it like that.

01:04:58.180 Jesus said to her, so Mary says they have no wine.

01:05:01.260 Jesus said to her, woman, what does that have to do with me?

01:05:03.620 My hours has, my hour has not yet come.

01:05:05.960 And then his mother said to the servants, do whatever he tells you.

01:05:10.140 So not do whatever Mary tells you.

01:05:11.540 No, no.

01:05:11.800 Yeah.

01:05:12.140 You're right.

01:05:12.840 Of course.

01:05:13.360 I'm sorry if I'm a spoke.

01:05:14.140 So to me, it seems like Jesus had the opportunity to revere Mary in certain ways and he didn't.

01:05:18.900 And obviously that's not what Catholic doctrine teaches.

01:05:21.240 And I'm not trying to close this off.

01:05:22.540 Oh, you're saying you don't think she, he was respecting her with that or revering her with that.

01:05:26.220 Um, no, I don't think he was especially revering her to the point that Catholic doctrine teaches.

01:05:30.760 I promise we will have a part two, but I've gotten multiple messages and I, I want people

01:05:35.680 to hear fully and honestly what the Catholic perspective is.

01:05:40.020 And so I'm not trying to cut Lila off at all.

01:05:42.320 We can have a part two, we can do it on her show.

01:05:45.160 You can go to her show and you can see all of her amazing work.

01:05:49.560 And she does absolutely incredible work and the anti-abortion pro-life movement.

01:05:54.700 And I am so thankful for her.

01:05:56.780 And I'm so thankful that we can have these discussions and still be friends and be passionate

01:06:00.820 about it and still respect the heck out of each other.

01:06:04.260 So I will always support Lila and so grateful for that.

01:06:07.320 I'm a huge fan of yours.

01:06:08.000 Yes.

01:06:08.260 Well, thank you so much for this spirited discussion.

01:06:10.280 It was super fun and I hope people liked it.

01:06:12.480 I hope people weren't too stressed out.

01:06:14.020 Thank you so much, Lila.

01:06:15.180 They're like stressing over here.

01:06:17.040 And I, did I misspeak?

01:06:18.080 Did I say do whatever she tells you?

01:06:19.220 I meant, I did not mean to say that.

01:06:19.800 You might have her, I could have misheard it, but just in case other people heard it the way

01:06:23.380 Well, thank you so much.

01:06:25.440 Thanks, Allie.

01:06:25.960 Thanks, Allie.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 11, 2025

Ep 1216 ｜ Can Catholics Claim the One True Church？｜ Lila Rose

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