Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 122 ｜ Josh Buice

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, happy Friday. Welcome to Relatable. Hope everyone had a wonderful week and that you

00:00:05.340 are looking forward to the weekend. So we are going to talk to Pastor Josh Bice today,

00:00:12.320 the founding director of G3 Conferences. There has been a point of contention going on within

00:00:17.740 the Southern Baptist Convention. That's the convention that I have been a part of

00:00:20.780 my entire life. The churches that I've gone to in general have been a part of the Southern

00:00:27.300 Baptist denomination, and it is a centering the role of women in the church. Now I have already

00:00:34.060 recorded the episode that I'm going to do this summer on women in the church that's to be released

00:00:39.780 after maternity leave. And so if you are wondering what all the Bible says about women's role in the

00:00:47.020 church and my perspective on that based on the word of God, you can just wait just a few weeks,

00:00:52.160 maybe even just a couple more weeks to hear that. But today I wanted to get his insight. He has been

00:00:57.040 very vocal on this issue from the side of complementarianism versus the other side,

00:01:01.600 which is egalitarianism. And I wanted to see if he could give us some clarity on this extremely

00:01:07.560 hot button issue. Josh, thanks so much for joining me. Glad to be with you. Yes. Okay. If you could

00:01:13.360 tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do. Sure. My name is Josh. I serve as a pastor

00:01:19.960 just west of Atlanta, Georgia. I have the privilege to serve a 177-year-old Baptist congregation.

00:01:28.400 Wow. Interestingly enough, my wife and I both grew up here as children. We met in the context of our

00:01:34.440 church. I went away to Southern Seminary, pastored out of state for about seven years. And then in God's

00:01:40.700 kind providence, I was called back home to serve the very people who served us as children.

00:01:46.780 Awesome. Where do you mind me asking where in Georgia you are? I lived in Georgia for a little

00:01:51.380 bit. Yeah. So take I-20 straight out west from the city, just past Six Flags, and you run right

00:01:57.800 through the heart of Douglas County. And that's where we are. Gotcha. Cool. My husband and I met

00:02:02.920 in Athens, Georgia, and his family is from a small town in Georgia. And so I'm very familiar with the

00:02:09.240 area. So as you know, there's a lot going on with the SBC right now. I was raised a Southern

00:02:15.020 Baptist in a Southern Baptist church, and I am very thankful for that. But there has been some

00:02:20.340 contention for a while, but I would say it seems like it's kind of blown up on social media for the

00:02:24.880 past couple of weeks. And it's centered on this issue of complementarianism versus egalitarianism.

00:02:31.360 Now, some people listening to this might not even know what I mean by that. So could you kind of break

00:02:35.760 down what we may call, for lack of a better word, the controversy that's going on right now?

00:02:40.620 Yeah, sure. So I think it would be helpful probably just to talk about definitions. So

00:02:45.600 complementarianism and egalitarianism are two different positions, opposing positions. Basically,

00:02:53.040 complementarianism was a term that was brought about as a response to the feminist movement back in the 0.98

00:03:00.780 60s and 70s. And complementarianism basically teaches that both men and women are created equal

00:03:09.220 in personhood, both in their value or their worth and their dignity. And so both men and women have

00:03:18.140 the same percentage or the same amount of the image of God upon them. The distinction would be this.

00:03:25.500 Complementarians believe that there is a distinction that God has for both men and women

00:03:32.440 in culture, in the home, and the church. So in other words, there are roles and responsibilities

00:03:38.580 that are very distinct for women that are different than the roles and responsibilities that God has 0.98

00:03:44.680 designed for men to carry out. And so that would be what we would call complementarianism.

00:03:51.480 Egalitarianism would be the idea that we could agree on would be that both men and women are created

00:03:57.600 equal by God with both dignity and value, the worth of both men and women are the same.

00:04:10.660 But distinction would be simply this. The egalitarian would say that there is no distinction,

00:04:17.660 there is no difference of role and responsibility for the man and the woman in the culture at large

00:04:24.420 or the home or the church. And so that's where you would get the idea of a woman serving as a pastor 1.00

00:04:31.860 in various different evangelical circles.

00:04:35.700 Right. So where, if you know, where do egalitarians, Christian egalitarians,

00:04:42.680 get their scriptural basis? Because you and I agree on the fact that the Bible is pretty clear in the

00:04:48.800 context of the family, in the context of the church, there are simply different roles for men and women.

00:04:53.980 It's not a degrading role for women and an honorable role for a man. They're honorable roles that are 1.00

00:04:59.460 just different. So what do you think is behind this egalitarian push to say, no, no, no, different

00:05:05.740 is inherently worse. And so women have to serve in the same way that men do. Where is that coming from? 0.96

00:05:12.860 Well, I think it would be helpful to recognize that this is not a new movement. This is not something

00:05:17.960 that was birthed in the last couple of years. And it certainly isn't something that just comes from the

00:05:23.080 feminist movement or the radical feminist movement of, say, the 60s and the 70s. This is a movement 0.75

00:05:29.280 that was birthed in the Garden of Eden. So when you see Eve usurping the authority of her husband 1.00

00:05:35.840 when she was tempted by Satan in the Garden, what you see is the very first role reversal. So

00:05:42.640 everything that you see coming out of the fall in the Garden of Eden, the very curse that we see,

00:05:49.060 according to Romans 5.12, is really the product of this first role reversal. So this is not

00:05:55.520 something new. This is something that's been happening. It's an ancient problem that we've been dealing

00:06:00.400 with as far as the differences between male and female since the very beginning, since the very curse

00:06:07.660 that took place in the fall. So what we're seeing now is that we're seeing in this present controversy

00:06:14.500 within the evangelical circles, we're seeing really this coming out of this recent Me Too movement

00:06:22.360 in the abuse of women. I think everyone can agree on the fact that for women to be abused or to be

00:06:30.160 harmed or to be degraded in any way as far as their value and worth and dignity is sinful, and we should

00:06:36.560 all stand against that. But the idea that simply because women have been abused or because women have been

00:06:43.120 somehow discriminated against in certain cultures, that we must now empower women to the highest roles 0.88

00:06:51.460 and responsibilities, both in the home, the church, and in culture, or even denominational settings,

00:06:58.500 I think is to just miss the mark. I think we can call out sin and deal with sin in different ways as far

00:07:07.760 as the issues related to the oppression of women or the injustices surrounding women without bypassing

00:07:14.460 God's blueprint for what men and women are to carry out in those different spheres.

00:07:19.140 Yeah. And Baptists kind of had this conversation a few decades ago, right? I mean, Baptists were kind of

00:07:26.600 having a similar controversy just about liberal theology in general, and then we made a correct turn,

00:07:32.720 which has really helped the Baptist church thrive, the Southern Baptist church thrive for a while.

00:07:37.800 And I think that you nailed it when you said, okay, there's been a lot of things that have happened

00:07:42.220 culturally and politically. I would even say for some people, the election of Donald Trump erupted

00:07:47.040 this desire in some Christian women to say, okay, any form of saying that a woman has to be in a particular

00:07:56.800 role is misogyny or saying that a woman can't exercise authority over a man as first Timothy 2.12 0.53

00:08:02.860 says, well, that's some form of sexism. So it's been interesting to see people that I would have

00:08:08.800 thought believed in the supremacy of scripture because of cultural changes. All of a sudden,

00:08:13.820 it seems like take a completely different approach to what scripture actually says. What do you think about

00:08:19.780 that? I think you're spot on, Ali. And I think that one of the problems with that is you talk about the

00:08:25.420 supremacy of scripture back in the day when we had this controversy related to liberal theology,

00:08:31.620 we went through this period of time, this movement called the conservative resurgence.

00:08:37.180 Back during that time period, you had individuals like the associate dean of the school of theology

00:08:42.620 at Southern Seminary. Her name was Molly Marshall, and she was actually teaching things such as

00:08:48.880 post-mortem salvation opportunities. I mean, there was all sorts of problems. She was an ordained minister

00:08:54.360 and all of this. But we moved through that controversy, and we come to this present situation.

00:09:00.940 And I think that there have been pastors and others who have rightly stated this before.

00:09:05.840 They have stated, we might have won the battle on inerrancy, but we're losing the battle

00:09:10.400 on sufficiency. And so when it comes to this issue of how we're going to treat women,

00:09:16.480 we want everyone in the culture to say that the Southern Baptist Convention loves women,

00:09:21.780 and that we want women to flourish and use their gifts for the glory of God. That's certainly true.

00:09:27.160 But the problem is, we are also, if we're just going to be really honest,

00:09:32.880 the Southern Baptist Convention, as well as many other evangelical circles, have become

00:09:36.880 slaves to pragmatism. So in other words, if it works, then let's do it. And so if empowering women 0.96

00:09:43.780 to certain roles of authority makes the culture at large view us as valuing women, then maybe we're

00:09:51.500 going to do that. And so that's problematic when it comes to using certain methods to gain the eye

00:10:00.240 of approval or to attract the culture at large. That's certainly problematic.

00:10:04.620 I think that there's been a big push within Christianity away from, in an attempt to push

00:10:11.560 themselves away from the title of evangelical as a group that is associated with Trump.

00:10:16.780 They have said, well, I'm going to be the opposite of that, which means I'm going to be woke,

00:10:20.280 which means instead of partnering with fellow Christians on which I have political disagreements

00:10:24.400 with, I am going to partner with people that I agree with politically, but that I have complete

00:10:30.020 disagreements with theologically. And because of that partnership, I think we see a lot of people

00:10:34.760 saying, well, these political issues are more important to me than theological inerrancy or

00:10:41.560 theological sufficiency. And so that's where we've kind of seen a lot of compromise. Now,

00:10:47.980 just so everyone is perfectly clear who is listening to this, what does the Bible say specifically about

00:10:55.400 a woman's role in the church and what should that look like? 0.98

00:10:58.480 Well, first and foremost, God has a huge plan and a massive blueprint for women to be useful in 1.00

00:11:08.180 the life of the church. So this idea that complementarians, that we somehow degrade women

00:11:14.120 or that we don't see value for women in the local churches simply to miss the mark, that's to 0.96

00:11:18.840 misrepresent where we stand. In other words, I would say it like this, that if we did not have faithful

00:11:25.140 women doing exactly what God has called them to do in the life of the church, our churches would 1.00

00:11:30.240 fall apart. I mean, they would be very unhealthy. So when we read like 1 Timothy 2.12, you cited a

00:11:37.260 moment ago, it just simply states that God's plan is not for women to teach or to have authority over

00:11:45.900 men. And I would say that by definition, if you're going to preach the word of God, that you're to handle

00:11:54.080 the word of God with authority. So the herald goes forth with the authority of the one that he's

00:12:00.680 representing or that she's representing. So if you're going to stand with the open Bible and preach 0.65

00:12:05.660 the Bible, you can't say, I'm coming under the authority of the elders, but now I'm going to ask

00:12:11.160 you to open the Bible and I'm going to now preach the word. You have to preach the Bible with authority.

00:12:16.160 It just comes with the territory. So the idea is that women from the beginning were created 0.92

00:12:22.120 to be a helper, to be, we see that with Adam, that Eve was created to be a helper. We go through the

00:12:29.220 life of the church and we don't see that God is calling women to be apostles. We don't see that

00:12:35.060 God is calling women to be elders. But what we see is that God is absolutely calling women to be 1.00

00:12:41.760 those who have their influence in the home, those who put their affection on the home, to be keepers

00:12:48.000 at home, to use a biblical phrase. But then also we go to Titus chapter two, and we see that women are 0.97

00:12:54.580 to be discipling, making disciples, training the younger, investing in children, serving in various

00:13:01.440 capacities. She's simply not called to the office of elder, and she's not called to preach the word to

00:13:08.820 a mixed audience or to preach the Sunday sermon within the context of the local church. And I would

00:13:15.620 actually say, even in the context of a Christian conference as well.

00:13:20.000 So that's what I would have a question on. And I think a lot of people listening probably have a

00:13:23.760 question on that too. You know, I went to, before I even thought about this issue, honestly, when I was

00:13:29.380 somewhat of a new Christian in college, I went to the Passion Conferences where you hear from people

00:13:33.840 like John Piper, you also hear from Beth Moore, Christine Kane. You know, again, I was kind of

00:13:39.080 even oblivious at that point to any discussion of whether or not this is biblical. But there are a lot

00:13:44.780 of Bible-believing, even complementarians, who would say, look, 1 Timothy 2.12 is in the context of the

00:13:50.520 local church, and that does not extend to Christian conferences. But as you said, you don't preach the

00:13:57.980 word of God without authority. So I guess I'm just asking for more clarity and insight into that,

00:14:05.620 because there are people that I respect who are complementarians who would say, you know what,

00:14:10.640 in the context of a conference, it's fine. They're not exercising authority and setting the doctrine for

00:14:15.420 a local church. Yeah. Well, I think, again, within the world of complementarianism, you do have

00:14:22.100 a couple of different categories. And even within those categories, you're going to have differing

00:14:26.280 levels and differing positions. You have what's called soft complementarianism, and that would be

00:14:31.880 the idea that would allow for women to use their gifts of teaching and preaching, that sort of thing, 0.95

00:14:39.320 in the context of a mixed audience, like a Sunday school class, a small group Bible study that's

00:14:46.740 sanctioned by or organized officially by the local church, or even on a Sunday morning,

00:14:51.900 so long as she doesn't have or occupy, you might say, the office of elder, so long as she hasn't been

00:14:59.500 ordained to the office of elder. But then you have what we might call the hard complementarianism.

00:15:07.200 And that's the idea that I would actually hold to that would state that if you're going to allow a 0.96

00:15:13.360 woman to preach the Bible to a mixed audience, or even in the pulpit on a Sunday morning,

00:15:18.220 on occasion, so long as she doesn't occupy that office of elder, then I would say it seems to be

00:15:25.280 a bit inconsistent. I mean, it seems to be that you're saying to her, you can exercise your gifts

00:15:30.440 occasionally, but you can't do that on a week-to-week basis and be called pastor. And so I think that

00:15:37.900 that's certainly an inconsistency among the more soft complementarians. But again, back to the biblical

00:15:45.720 text, I would say, you can't preach the Bible without preaching it with authority. So we must

00:15:52.380 say, thus says the Lord God, we must open the word, we must preach the imperatives and call people to

00:15:58.740 respond to God. And so that would involve preaching the Bible with authority. And so that's why I don't

00:16:05.200 embrace that more soft position.

00:16:07.460 And something like the Passion Conference, would you say there is an opening there for saying that

00:16:12.620 the women who are teaching, are teaching essentially children, because they're, you know, 0.98

00:16:18.380 they're college students now, they are 20 something. So I guess it depends on kind of where

00:16:22.180 you draw the line for adult men. But would you say there's an opening there for someone like a Beth

00:16:27.680 Moore or a Christian woman? And I know you might, you know, we have other maybe theological differences

00:16:33.100 with Beth Moore, but just the female part of it. Do you think there is an opportunity there for her to 0.92

00:16:38.260 kind of shepherd young people as more of like a spiritual mother or no?

00:16:43.340 No, I wouldn't say so. I think that we have to draw a line someplace. And I think that even with

00:16:48.360 passion, you're going to have, you're going to have young men and young women who are there. Let's just

00:16:53.000 be honest. Those are young men and young women. They're, they're college students. And in, in our

00:16:57.940 American culture, we like to have this delay of manhood and womanhood. But I would say

00:17:03.740 those are young men and young women. And, and furthermore, you have the organizers of the event,

00:17:09.480 you have lots of adults who are in that room, thousands of them. And so I think that it would

00:17:14.500 just be very good to say, we need to hold a position that states that, you know, we're not

00:17:19.840 going to have women preaching to thousands of, of young men in a context like a conference setting.

00:17:27.220 But I do think that there is room for her to serve in a conference. I think there's room for her to 1.00

00:17:32.640 stand and preach to hundreds of women. Uh, all you have to do is you just simply have to organize

00:17:38.080 it and then advertise it as such. Okay. Gotcha. So I do think that, like I was saying, there's

00:17:44.240 probably disagreement among complimentarians. I wonder if there would even be people who consider

00:17:49.040 themselves like you, like a hard complimentarian who doesn't believe that a woman should be

00:17:53.340 preaching on Sunday morning, but who take the first Timothy passage is saying, okay, this is in the

00:17:58.580 context of the local church and doesn't extend, uh, to doesn't extend to conferences. I think that

00:18:03.760 would be a really interesting conversation to have. And I do want to say that I think it's possible

00:18:07.740 for two Bible believing Christians to have that, that kind of differentiation, uh, behind what they

00:18:14.640 believe. Now, the bigger that this conversation gets, the bigger that the scope of complimentarianism

00:18:19.460 gets to where it's essentially saying, no, men and women have the exact same roles, no matter what.

00:18:24.560 I think that is obviously we agree there where we weighed into particularly dangerous territory.

00:18:30.620 So tell me how we properly and in a Christlike way engage with those who disagree so passionately

00:18:38.900 with us about this subject, because it's not just a political issue. It's, um, it's a much bigger

00:18:45.080 issue than that. I would say. Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question, Allie. I think that sometimes,

00:18:50.600 uh, in social media, and so you, you, you spend time in the social media world and you're online

00:18:56.540 in various different, uh, areas as far as YouTube or wherever else, I think it's oftentimes difficult

00:19:03.360 to, you might say, to, uh, show these differences or engage in these differences, or maybe even respond

00:19:11.580 to these differences through say a tweet or even a Facebook post or something of that nature. So we have

00:19:17.580 to be very cautious, I think, in how we do it. Yeah. I would say that with a public figure,

00:19:22.840 because I'm oftentimes, even on my blog that I write, if I write an article that addresses these

00:19:28.340 issues, uh, that someone holds such as a Beth Moore, for instance, I will receive hundreds of emails from

00:19:35.140 people who are, I think maybe even have a well-meaning attitude and heart behind it, but they'll say,

00:19:40.160 did you properly contact Beth before, you know, before you wrote the article, uh, in response to

00:19:46.380 say, or a position such as like Matthew 18, as far as that's talking about church discipline.

00:19:51.880 But I would simply state that when it comes to a public figure, that that person's outside of the

00:19:57.300 realm of my local church. So I don't have the privilege or the access to individuals who are

00:20:03.500 preaching public sermons or writing public books or espousing various different ideas and views.

00:20:10.160 in the public realm. So that, that's a contextual issue. And I think that we must understand that

00:20:16.780 Matthew chapter 18, when we're talking about church discipline is talking about the context of a local

00:20:21.160 church. So someone preaches a public sermon, it's plastered on YouTube, or someone writes a book for

00:20:27.680 everyone to read, and they're saying things in there that aren't biblical to write an article

00:20:32.660 publicly calling out that very error is not, uh, right. It's not a violation of the Matthew 18

00:20:40.960 passage. And I just think we have to be very honest with that. And because those are, I mean,

00:20:45.720 one thing happened in the public sphere and the response also happens in the public sphere. It would

00:20:49.740 be one thing if you're commenting publicly on something that happened privately, I would think

00:20:54.000 that would be kind of just a breach of trust. And that's just based on my own common sense. But I've

00:20:58.580 gotten some of the same things when I talked about the problems with the Sparrow conference that

00:21:02.740 happened here in Texas, uh, with Ms. Uwan, who had some interesting things to say about whiteness.

00:21:09.040 I don't think it's necessarily, um, always the responsibility of the person commenting on

00:21:15.440 something that they've seen publicly to make this a private conversation. Wonderful. If that happens,

00:21:20.900 as long as the public commentary is happening from a place of wanting to share the gospel,

00:21:25.700 and we're going back to the supremacy of scripture as our authority, I agree with you. I think that

00:21:30.840 it's totally fair game. Yeah. And I would just add to that. I would say, you know, if you chose to do

00:21:36.040 that and you had access to her, then that's fine. I mean, and that's a wonderful thing. Sometimes these,

00:21:41.940 these dialogues can take place in private instead of in the public sphere. And sometimes that's,

00:21:47.420 that's very good and profitable. However, I would say this, if Beth Moore were a member of my church,

00:21:53.620 then before I wrote one of the two articles that I've written recently, I would have had

00:21:58.820 conversations with her before I ever penned those articles simply because some of those differences

00:22:04.780 could have been worked out perhaps in private rather than public. So those are issues that I

00:22:10.940 think that we must be honest about as well. So I think we're on the same page there. Yeah. Um,

00:22:16.620 give some kind of encouragement to women who might be listening to this, because if, if,

00:22:20.360 if we're honest in our flashes, women, it can be hard. And I specify in our flesh,

00:22:25.420 it can be hard to read a verse that says women should be quiet in the church, especially in

00:22:30.080 today's day and age, when women are told, even if we don't believe the feminist mantra is that 1.00

00:22:34.240 you can have it all, you can do it all. You're just like a man. There is something that's,

00:22:38.600 and I think it does go back to the garden of Eden. That's kind of just rubs us the wrong way.

00:22:42.820 It rubs our pride the wrong way, which of course is a sin. It rubs our ego the wrong way,

00:22:47.080 which of course is a sin. So if you could give some encouragement to women about, again, I know 0.92

00:22:52.540 you've already explained this, but their role in the church and particularly for young women who

00:22:56.200 feel that they have the gift of teaching and leadership and what God, according to his word

00:23:01.960 has for them. Yeah. So I would just say a couple of things. I would say, number one,

00:23:07.980 the Bible never teaches that Christian women's place is to be spent in the kitchen and the laundry 0.99

00:23:13.860 basket and, you know, just taking care of little children and changing diapers in perpetuity for 0.78

00:23:20.440 the rest of your life. I would simply state that God has a plan for women and it's a wonderful plan. 1.00

00:23:27.080 But anytime that we violate the very blueprint that God has put in place, it's to question,

00:23:32.940 it's to question God, it's to question his word. In fact, if you go back to the garden of Eden,

00:23:37.580 and you look at that first sin, you will see that that is precisely what Satan did as he attacked Eve

00:23:44.960 is he caused her to question the validity and the sufficiency and the supremacy and really the

00:23:51.660 inerrancy of God's word. And same thing that he did with Jesus in the wilderness as well,

00:23:57.360 using God's own word to mean something that it didn't. Absolutely. So he's been twisting scripture

00:24:02.500 for a very long time and we need to be aware of that. But what we must understand is that the

00:24:07.800 feminist mantra, if you will, this agenda that women have to do everything that men do in order 1.00

00:24:15.020 to flourish in society and use all of their gifts, I think is a mistake. In fact, if you just look at

00:24:22.120 the mainstream television networks and you see the commercials that are being circulated on those

00:24:26.960 stations, you'll see, you know, little girls who are, you know, their position next to little boys 0.90

00:24:32.800 who are going out onto the football field, you'll see even in entertainment circles, you'll see women 1.00

00:24:38.180 who are now going into MMA rings and fighting like men. I mean, this is something that the feminists have 1.00

00:24:44.240 been trying to do for a very long time. If you'll go back to the garden of Eden, you will see that

00:24:48.940 Satan's very first attempt to sway Eve was to really question the very validity of the Bible,

00:24:58.880 to question the sufficiency and the inerrancy of God's word. He's been twisting scripture for centuries,

00:25:06.140 and so he's very good at that. What we need to understand, though, is that God has a very special

00:25:10.660 plan for women, and it's not that they are to only be in the kitchen or are in the laundry basket or just 0.99

00:25:17.520 changing diapers in perpetuity for the rest of their lives. There, you know, there's a very special

00:25:23.460 place for women in God's redemptive plan, and you'll look at that and you'll see in the Bible, 0.97

00:25:28.800 you'll see that Paul alludes to this when he's talking to his son in the faith, Timothy. He says,

00:25:33.640 remember who taught you the word, and he's talking about Eunice and Lois. He's talking about his

00:25:38.320 grandmother and his mother. So women have a very unique calling and to invest, to be on the front lines, 0.86

00:25:45.920 if you will, to invest in their children, to teach them the scriptures. You can go through history and

00:25:50.860 you can read about giants of church history who have stated things like, you know, my mother never

00:25:58.320 preached a sermon in her life, but she's far more powerful than any of the preachers that I've heard

00:26:05.080 in church history because of her investment in prayer, her investment in the teaching and the

00:26:11.600 discipleship of the home. If you read Charles Spurgeon, you're going to find that he talks about

00:26:16.860 the investment of his mother and her prayers and the prayers around the supper table and the prayers

00:26:25.000 at the bedside and things of that nature. So what we need to understand is that God has a very high

00:26:31.600 calling for women, but anytime that we deviate from God's blueprint, it's going to be very problematic,

00:26:37.760 and that has been the very goal of Satan from the very beginning. We need to be very cautious of

00:26:42.140 that. I think it's a little bit of idolatry too for women to look at the particular station that God 1.00

00:26:47.340 has said, look, I've got so much for you, Christian women, but this station of elder, this station of

00:26:54.220 exercising teaching authority over a man, that is not for you because like you said of the creation

00:27:01.160 order that was set up with Adam and Eve and also the order that we see reflected in Christ in the church,

00:27:06.060 that's a very gospel-centered and gospel-ordained order that is purposeful. It's not just this kind

00:27:12.500 of cultural context of saying, sorry, the women back then were stupid, and so they couldn't say 1.00

00:27:18.520 anything. No, it's actually rooted in creation, which again is reflected in the New Testament, 0.98

00:27:22.480 like I just said, but also for women who, like me, my whole life have been very outspoken and have

00:27:28.880 loved to lead and to organize and to talk about things that I'm passionate about. We also see

00:27:34.140 throughout the Bible, there are places of leadership for women that God uses women for,

00:27:41.400 but for us to say, well, no, we need access to everything or else you don't really love us

00:27:47.020 is an unfortunate, I think, mistrust of God's plan, his sovereignty, his love for women. We see in Jesus

00:27:54.680 exactly how God thinks of women, how much he relates to them, how much he attends to them,

00:28:03.000 is attentive to them in the same way that he is a man, but there are different roles, there are

00:28:08.980 different responsibilities, and there are different stations. And what I would want a woman to take 1.00

00:28:12.860 away from that is not that God loves you less or that he sees you as any less dignified or any less

00:28:18.300 worthy or any less smart, or that you can't, you're not a good teacher or something like that,

00:28:23.760 but that it's different. And there is a purpose behind that. And for us to be able to take a step back

00:28:28.400 and say, you know, even if this does hurt my ego, even if this does hurt my pride,

00:28:33.460 I trust God's word. And I trust that he does this because he loves me, as we see so well in the New

00:28:42.000 Testament. Yeah, you're spot on, Allie. And I think that the feminists have been very successful 1.00

00:28:48.300 in turning this idea of submission, biblical submission, into a pejorative, into something

00:28:53.580 that's, you know, looked down upon in our culture. And I think that that's very unfortunate.

00:29:00.120 Look, I have the privilege to serve as a pastor, and I serve as the pastor of very intelligent women

00:29:06.800 in our church, that there is a particular young lady in our church that knows Greek,

00:29:11.680 and she can converse with us on the highest level as far as biblical interpretation. And she puts her

00:29:18.940 gifts into use within the life of our church, but she knows that she has a role that God has

00:29:24.960 placed her in, and she's not willing to go outside of that particular role because she wants to honor

00:29:31.320 God. And so, again, you mentioned selfishness earlier and idolatry, and I think that a lot of

00:29:37.620 this movement is very much rooted in that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your insight. I think this

00:29:42.340 is going to be very encouraging and clarifying for people who maybe have been watching this conversation,

00:29:47.040 and they just don't know what to make of it. They like people like Beth Moore, who are kind of on

00:29:52.040 the other side of this, and they also like people like you and Al Mohler, who seem to be on the

00:29:57.720 opposite side, and they're trying to just reconcile it. But at the end of the day, what we all have to

00:30:02.660 remember is that any reconciliation of two opposing ideas can be found in the Word of God. And I agree

00:30:09.320 with you wholeheartedly that the Word of God supports the differing roles for men and women and the equal

00:30:14.200 value of men and women. So thank you so much for your insight, and thank you for all the hard work

00:30:18.720 that you do. If you could tell everyone where to find you and anything that you would like people to

00:30:24.280 know. Yeah, sure. Two things. You can find me on my blog. I write at deliveredbygrace.com. I'm also

00:30:32.080 active on social media like Twitter. You can find me there at Josh Beist. Also, I'm the founding

00:30:38.860 director of the G3 conference. It's held each January in Atlanta. I would love for you to come

00:30:45.220 and join us this January. We're having a worship conference, so the entire theme is going to be

00:30:50.620 focused on the theme of worship. And then finally, I would just simply state that if you're not a

00:30:56.580 follower of Jesus Christ, you need to know that you have sinned against God, that you have transgressed 1.00

00:31:02.340 His holy law, and that you deserve, just like all of us, all of humanity, you deserve the wrath of God.

00:31:09.060 But if you would turn to Jesus Christ by faith, believing that He died for you in a substitutionary

00:31:14.180 way, and call upon Him for the remission of your sins, the Bible says that you will be saved, that

00:31:19.740 God will reconcile you to Himself through the very blood of His Son. And so I want to encourage anyone

00:31:26.360 who might be listening to this, who's not yet a believer, to turn to Jesus Christ by faith.

00:31:31.740 Amen. Thank you so much. I think that's a great note to end on. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.

00:31:36.840 Thank you, Allie. Have a great day.

00:31:38.260 Thanks. You too. Well, I hope that you guys got some insight from him on this topic. Like I said, this is

00:31:44.900 something that I'm going to cover in depth from a biblical perspective, of course, as we always do

00:31:51.280 this summer and go back to what Scripture says about our role, particularly for someone like me.

00:31:57.880 And maybe you're out there and you can relate to someone who likes to teach, someone who loves to

00:32:03.220 talk about God's Word, someone who loves to lead. What does it look like to flourish in the strength

00:32:10.760 that God gave us, that I believe that I was born with? What does it look like to flourish in those

00:32:16.520 roles and still be in full submission to the Word of God? I think it is extremely possible. I don't

00:32:23.480 think that it is necessary for us to compromise at all on the talents that we've been given by God

00:32:30.180 or on obedience to God. I think it is always possible for us to do both to the glory of God.

00:32:38.080 So I'd be interested to hear maybe where you disagreed on this subject. As you could tell,

00:32:42.440 I disagreed with him on a few things, but if you have any thoughts, I would love to hear from you,

00:32:47.240 Ali at the conservativemillennialblog.com. Feel free to send me an email or of course a message

00:32:52.560 on Instagram. And I will see you guys back here on Monday for Theology Monday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 07, 2019

Ep 122 ｜ Josh Buice

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