Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 30, 2025


Ep 1224 ｜ The Mary Debate： Catholics vs. Protestants


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 1 minute

Words per Minute

159.36919

Word Count

9,762

Sentence Count

577

Misogynist Sentences

10

Hate Speech Sentences

32


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.700 A recent post on X about Jesus' siblings had Catholics and Protestants debating about Mary.
00:00:08.560 What is true about her?
00:00:09.960 Did she have original sin?
00:00:11.560 Was she a perpetual virgin?
00:00:13.640 We will be going through the Catholic doctrines and dogmas of Mary today and what Protestants
00:00:19.080 believe and what I specifically believe about Mary on today's episode of Relatable.
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00:00:45.280 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.
00:00:47.040 Happy Wednesday.
00:00:47.960 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.
00:00:50.560 Before we get into our discussion of Mary, Catholic versus Protestant doctrine on the
00:00:58.340 Virgin Mary, I do want to ask you guys to please subscribe.
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00:01:33.360 All right.
00:01:33.640 Today is Theology Wednesday, and because you guys loved that Israel episode so much, I want
00:01:41.140 to follow that same format where I say, this is what one side believes, and I want to give
00:01:47.340 the fairest and the truest representation of that side as possible, no matter where I land
00:01:53.100 on it.
00:01:53.700 This is what the other side believes, and this is what I believe.
00:01:57.480 Because this is not only about persuading people, I would say it's not even primarily throughout
00:02:04.040 the episode about persuading people.
00:02:07.240 This is really about educating people.
00:02:09.580 In this particular episode, what Protestants believe, most Protestants anyway, specifically
00:02:15.600 evangelicals believe about Jesus's mother, and then what Catholics teach about Jesus's mother.
00:02:22.120 Now, I want to say up front, you guys hopefully know this.
00:02:25.920 I know my tried and true, consistent Catholic subscribers do, that I love my Catholic friends.
00:02:33.600 I love my Catholic followers.
00:02:35.760 I have some really healthy, productive, respectful debates and discussions with you guys in the
00:02:42.560 comments, in the messages.
00:02:44.520 I am never offended by your disagreement.
00:02:47.880 I know that my supporters and friends who are Catholic, they hold sincere beliefs, and they
00:02:55.880 care about me, and they care about their faith, and they want to discuss those things.
00:03:02.220 I have had these conversations with George Farmer, with Trent Horn, with Lila Rose, with
00:03:08.100 Matt Walsh, with Michael Knowles.
00:03:10.280 Not every time I talk to these people do I debate them on theology, but I have debated all of those
00:03:16.620 people on different biblical doctrines, and I still respect and admire those people so much,
00:03:23.340 and I'm eager to link arms with them when it comes to the many, many issues that we agree on.
00:03:29.640 One of my biggest questions about Catholic theology as a Protestant, Reformed Protestant myself,
00:03:36.840 I hold to the tenets of the Reformation as a Baptist, has been about Mary.
00:03:43.180 And this is something that I have asked almost all of the people I listed about, George Farmer
00:03:48.300 and Trent Horn and Lila Rose.
00:03:50.860 And because, to me, I have not gotten an answer that I believe has given sufficient support for
00:03:59.640 many of the dogmas that the Catholic Church teaches, I wanted to dig into them myself.
00:04:04.520 And as I always like to do, I want to steel man the Catholic side.
00:04:09.620 We have Catholics that work on this team, that work in this company, and we sent the
00:04:15.640 representation of the Catholic side of the dogmas of Mary to them and said, hey, is this fair?
00:04:21.560 Like, is this really what you believe?
00:04:23.720 That's how important it is to me to make sure that we get that right.
00:04:27.260 Then I'll tell you the Protestant side of that, the biblical support for that.
00:04:31.480 And then, of course, my perspective on it.
00:04:34.960 And yes, there is an aspect of this that hopes to persuade.
00:04:37.820 But as I said, it's a lot of information.
00:04:39.520 Now, why are we talking about this?
00:04:42.220 Well, a variety of reasons.
00:04:43.660 Like I said, I'm curious about it myself.
00:04:45.900 I've read a lot of Catholic and Protestant resources on it.
00:04:48.360 But there was a debate that was sparked on X just the other day by Jack Posobiec.
00:04:53.520 And he is a fellow conservative that I also respect and really like.
00:04:57.440 I don't have anything personal at all against Jack Posobiec.
00:05:00.980 But he put out a post on X that caused a lot of discussion.
00:05:06.080 And he said, first, he said, yes, this was first on July 16th.
00:05:10.880 He said, Jesus did not have brothers.
00:05:12.880 And then he posted again until this week.
00:05:15.300 I had no idea people seriously thought Jesus had biological siblings.
00:05:20.340 And a lot of people responded to this on both sides of the issue.
00:05:25.640 And he posted later that he still didn't get a sufficient argument from the Protestant side
00:05:31.000 that Jesus did have brothers.
00:05:32.520 Now, if you are an evangelical like me, you might be confused.
00:05:35.700 You probably did not know that Catholics do not believe that Jesus had biological siblings
00:05:42.040 because they believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
00:05:45.800 What I found, and I've talked about this a lot, is that especially in the Bible Belt,
00:05:51.860 Protestants were not taught really anything about Catholicism.
00:05:55.900 I actually think that Catholics probably grew up hearing a little bit more about the Reformation,
00:06:01.860 the negative parts of the Reformation and Protestantism,
00:06:04.800 than Protestants did about any aspect, positive or negative, about Catholicism.
00:06:10.340 And so a lot of this is new information on both sides.
00:06:13.400 So I hope, Catholics and Protestants listening, that we all gain a better understanding of what
00:06:18.420 each side believes.
00:06:19.980 So because of this debate, I did not weigh in on X because I feel like I am like the token
00:06:26.220 conservative evangelical that always wades into the Catholic theological discussions, which
00:06:31.460 I kind of love.
00:06:32.380 But I just didn't want to on social media.
00:06:34.160 I wanted to take a whole episode to do that.
00:06:36.160 So first, let's start with the Catholic view.
00:06:38.400 Let's start with what Catholics actually believe about Mary.
00:06:43.080 There are four main dogmas, and I'll explain what that means when it comes to Catholic
00:06:48.680 doctrine about Jesus's mother.
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00:09:16.400 So, as I said, there are four main dogmas that the Catholic Church teaches are divinely revealed,
00:09:30.540 divinely revealed truths which all Catholics are required to believe.
00:09:36.520 And these four dogmas shape their view and relationship to Mary.
00:09:40.000 So, a dogma is a definitive teaching or doctrine that is declared by the Catholic Church.
00:09:46.240 And as I said, this is a requirement for all Catholics to believe.
00:09:50.980 And these four dogmas are that Mary is the mother of God, two, the Immaculate Conception,
00:09:58.120 three, perpetual virginity, and four, the Assumption.
00:10:01.480 So, maybe the first two, you're thinking, okay, well, Protestants believe that to the
00:10:06.080 Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, except it's a little more nuanced and complex than
00:10:11.120 that.
00:10:11.540 Protestants and Catholics actually do not believe the same things on those two points.
00:10:16.120 But these are the four necessary, non-negotiable doctrines of Mary within the Roman Catholic
00:10:22.600 Church.
00:10:23.040 So, the veneration of Mary, which just means deep respect or devotion, is supported by the
00:10:29.740 Catechism of the Catholic Church.
00:10:32.900 The prayer through her, I would say through her to Jesus, is something that is practiced
00:10:39.340 by many Catholics, but that in itself is not actually a dogma, even though it is very pervasive
00:10:47.940 among Catholics.
00:10:49.040 So, let's go through this first dogma.
00:10:51.640 This first dogma is that Mary is the mother of God.
00:10:56.800 This means God-bearer.
00:10:59.460 And as I said, this is a little bit layered.
00:11:01.900 So, let's get into what this actually means.
00:11:04.780 This is defined at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD, a long time ago.
00:11:10.880 This dogma declares that Mary is the Theotokos' God-bearer because she bore Jesus, who is fully
00:11:18.680 God and fully human.
00:11:20.040 And so, the logic is there.
00:11:22.080 If Jesus is fully God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then the logic, the math goes that
00:11:30.720 she is the mother of God.
00:11:33.000 The Council of Ephesus was a formal assembly of bishops and church leaders to discuss and
00:11:38.420 settle doctrinal matters.
00:11:40.200 And they emphasized that Mary is not only the mother of Jesus.
00:11:45.480 And this was combating against this idea that was called Nestorianism at the time, and it
00:11:52.580 tried to separate Jesus' humanity from Jesus' godness.
00:11:57.280 And so, that is why the Council of Ephesus at the time said, okay, well, because we have
00:12:03.400 established this doctrine that Jesus was fully man and fully God, which, of course, we agree
00:12:08.720 with, then we have to figure out, was Mary just the mother of Jesus' humanity or was she
00:12:15.180 the mother of God himself?
00:12:16.840 And they decided that, okay, she is actually the mother of God.
00:12:24.600 So, St. Cyril is a bishop of Alexandria who strongly defended core beliefs about Jesus'
00:12:30.040 divinity there.
00:12:31.040 He said, if anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is truly God and therefore the Holy Virgin
00:12:34.340 is the mother of God, since she bore in the flesh the word of God made flesh, let him be
00:12:40.380 an anathema.
00:12:41.320 Here, anathema is a curse.
00:12:43.860 We see that in Scripture.
00:12:45.140 So, let him be a curse.
00:12:46.240 Let him be cast off.
00:12:48.240 So, all Christians agree with that, that Jesus is God and that Mary is Jesus' mother.
00:12:55.720 However, I do want to say that as we will get into, the Protestant belief is a little bit
00:13:03.100 different and that distinction does actually matter.
00:13:06.220 So, that is one dogma, that Mary Theotokos is the mother of God.
00:13:11.540 The second dogma is Immaculate Conception.
00:13:14.340 It's a dogma defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854 that states, quote,
00:13:19.320 The most blessed Virgin Mary and the first instance of her conception by a singular grace
00:13:24.140 and privilege granted by Almighty God in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the state
00:13:28.040 of the human race was preserved free from all stain of original sin.
00:13:33.800 So, if you don't know what original sin is, that is the sin that we all inherit as sons
00:13:39.540 and daughters of Adam.
00:13:41.500 So, the first man, Adam and Eve, sinned in the garden.
00:13:45.340 And the biblical belief is that we have inherited biblical or original sin from him and that
00:13:52.080 Jesus washes away our original sin.
00:13:55.440 And so, the, or all sin, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states this statement along
00:14:03.260 with the idea of her assumption, which we'll talk about in a little bit in Article 9, Paragraph 6.
00:14:08.640 Finally, the Immaculate Virgin preserved from all stain of original sin when the course of
00:14:14.440 her earthly life was finished was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory and exalted
00:14:19.200 by the Lord as queen over all things.
00:14:22.760 So, also understand that the Catholic Church teaches that she has been exalted by God,
00:14:28.200 she has been assumed into heaven as queen of all things, and she never had original sin
00:14:34.900 that the rest of humanity have.
00:14:37.240 However, they don't say, the Catholic Church does not teach that she didn't need Jesus,
00:14:42.240 they teach that Jesus' righteousness was applied to her retroactively so that she was born
00:14:47.760 without the stain of sin before even Jesus was born.
00:14:51.500 They cite Luke 1.28, where the angel Gabriel greets Mary.
00:14:55.640 They argue that this is an implicit reference to the Immaculate Conception because the angel
00:15:01.420 says, Hail Mary, full of grace, or favored one.
00:15:06.580 And Catholic Answers, this is an apologetics resource, would argue that using this term in
00:15:12.340 the perfect sense, saying that she is full of grace, means that she is sinless, that she
00:15:19.440 was without spot.
00:15:21.260 So, that is the argument there.
00:15:23.440 Catholics believe that the teaching of Mary's Immaculate Conception originated in early Christianity,
00:15:28.180 and that it's been formalized as a dogma that Catholics are required to believe.
00:15:34.460 And they also cite Augustine of Hippo, who also seemed to assert in 415 AD that Mary didn't
00:15:45.040 have the same kind of sinfulness that you and I have.
00:15:49.180 And they would argue that this is necessary in being the God-bearer.
00:15:54.240 The next dogma is perpetual virginity.
00:15:58.860 This dogma claims that Mary remained a virgin before, during, and after Jesus' birth.
00:16:04.960 It was defined by the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD.
00:16:10.300 It gave her the title I.E.
00:16:12.340 Parthenos.
00:16:13.380 I.E.
00:16:13.700 Parthenos.
00:16:14.320 I think I'm pronouncing that correctly, which means the ever virgin.
00:16:18.700 So, this is the dogma that supports Jack Posobiec's claim that Jesus never had any biological brothers
00:16:28.140 and sisters, or fully biological brothers and sisters, because Catholic doctrine says that
00:16:34.740 she must have been a virgin forever.
00:16:37.520 There's a Catholic apologist by the name of Tim Staples that gives three reasons to believe
00:16:42.520 this doctrine.
00:16:44.140 He says that Mary made a vow of perpetual virginity to God before her betrothal to Joseph.
00:16:52.280 And he infers that, if I'm understanding correctly, from Luke 1.34, when she asks the angel,
00:16:59.680 how will this be that I will conceive this baby since I am a virgin?
00:17:05.480 And Staples wrote that a newly married woman would not ask the question, how shall this be?
00:17:11.220 She would know, unless, of course, that woman had taken a vow of virginity.
00:17:15.600 So, he argues, not what the Protestants have been taught, that she was just betrothed and
00:17:21.360 engaged to Joseph, but he is inferring that she was already married, and she was a virgin,
00:17:29.120 and therefore, she must have taken a vow of virginity, and that that vow would have been
00:17:36.820 kept intact throughout her life.
00:17:40.060 These apologists also cite the Proto-Evangelium of James, which is not in the biblical canon.
00:17:47.160 It's not in the 66 books of the Bible.
00:17:49.360 It's also not in the Apocrypha, so it's not in the Catholic biblical canon.
00:17:53.100 But it's a text from the 2nd century AD that it's used to defend this idea of perpetual
00:17:58.380 virginity.
00:17:59.600 It indicates that Mary was entrusted to Joseph to protect her virginity, that Jesus' siblings
00:18:04.560 were Joseph's son from a previous marriage, and so, again, the idea that maybe he had
00:18:08.860 half-brothers and sisters.
00:18:10.880 But it is important to know that the Proto-Evangelium of James is not actually considered, even by
00:18:17.660 Catholics, to be a historical document by most scholars due to its late composition, its
00:18:23.660 lack of corroboration in earlier sources, and more legendary elements, the idea of Mary
00:18:29.620 living in a temple.
00:18:31.720 It wasn't included in the New Testament canon for that reason, but it is relied upon by many
00:18:37.760 Catholics to give them an idea of who Mary was and how she should be honored.
00:18:42.960 All right, we've got more in this particular dogma in a second, but let me go ahead and
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00:20:12.360 Staples also argues that the angel's response to Mary in Luke 1 contains nuptial language
00:20:19.080 that seems to go back to Ruth.
00:20:22.020 So he cites Ruth 3.9 when Boaz says to Ruth, who are you?
00:20:28.920 And she answered, I am Ruth, your servant.
00:20:30.620 Spread your wings over your servant, for you are a redeemer.
00:20:35.080 And then he goes to Luke 1.35.
00:20:37.240 When the angel says to Mary, the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most
00:20:40.580 High will overshadow you.
00:20:41.720 Therefore, the child to be born will be called Holy, the Son of God.
00:20:46.920 So Staples argues that the Holy Spirit is Mary's spouse, but Joseph was her spouse and
00:20:51.280 protector on this earth.
00:20:53.440 But again, he would argue that they never consummated their marriage because of the supposed vow of
00:20:58.100 virginity.
00:20:58.700 He also refers to John 19.26 when Jesus was crucified, nearing death, gave his mother to
00:21:04.620 the care, and gave his mother to the care of John, even though by law, the responsibility
00:21:10.140 should have gone to the next eldest sibling.
00:21:12.940 Because there were apparently no brothers and sisters present to take on this responsibility,
00:21:17.260 Staples argues, he concludes that Jesus had none.
00:21:20.440 This would be John 19.26 through 27.
00:21:23.660 Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby.
00:21:28.380 He said to his mother, woman, behold your son.
00:21:30.160 He said to the disciple, behold your mother.
00:21:33.280 Another argument that Jesus had no siblings is that the word brothers here, the original
00:21:37.940 Greek, the original Aramaic, could apply to cousins or near relatives.
00:21:44.460 The Aramaic language didn't have a word for at the time.
00:21:48.500 Okay, so that is the third dogma.
00:21:50.920 Here is the fourth dogma.
00:21:52.660 This might be the one that you are most unfamiliar with if you are unfamiliar with Catholic doctrine.
00:21:58.180 And that is the Assumption into Heaven.
00:22:01.140 So this was declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950.
00:22:06.560 And this dogma states that Mary at the end of her earthly life was assumed or taken up.
00:22:12.520 So both her body and soul into Heaven, just like Enoch and Elijah in the Old Testament,
00:22:18.560 though the church does not definitively state whether Mary died and then was assumed or whether
00:22:24.120 she actually didn't have a physical death and she was just assumed into Heaven without dying.
00:22:31.000 Pope Francis said this today, looking at Mary assumed into Heaven, we can say that humility
00:22:36.380 is the way that leads to Heaven.
00:22:37.980 Pope John Paul II, he is a favorite Pope, especially among a lot of conservative Catholics.
00:22:44.440 He said,
00:22:44.760 To understand the Assumption, we must look to Easter, the great mystery of our salvation,
00:22:49.060 which marks the passage of Jesus to the glory of the Father through the Passion, Death, and
00:22:53.360 Resurrection.
00:22:54.520 Mary, who was made to share intimately in this mystery and who also shared in it suffering,
00:22:58.740 is associated on this day with the triumph of Christ.
00:23:04.060 First, they argue, this is according to Catholic Answers, again, an apologetics resource, that
00:23:09.020 early Christians highly valued the relics of saints.
00:23:13.600 And according to Catholic doctrine, saints are not just what Protestants believe in what
00:23:19.060 we read in Scripture, that saints are all the members of the household of God, of all
00:23:22.500 Christians, but there are different qualifications for particular saints in Heaven and saints that
00:23:28.700 you can pray to in the Catholic Church.
00:23:32.380 And so they argue that the early Christians highly valued the relics of saints, often preserving
00:23:36.700 and honoring their bones, but we can't find any remains of Mary.
00:23:42.320 And they would argue that that's odd.
00:23:44.600 She must have been entombed or preserved in some way.
00:23:48.540 No city, neither Jerusalem nor Ephesus, where she likely lived, ever claimed to have her bones
00:23:53.200 or bodily remains.
00:23:54.180 And so it is assumed that she was assumed into Heaven.
00:23:59.080 Catholic apologist Tim Staples argues that manuscript evidence, ancient handwritten documents
00:24:03.320 and fragments dating from the late 3rd to 6th century supports transitus Marii, passage of Mary.
00:24:09.800 This is, again, not considered Scripture, but these are different documents that were written
00:24:16.280 hundreds of years after Jesus died that indicate that perhaps Mary was assumed.
00:24:23.820 There is also a document called The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Dormition of
00:24:28.500 the Holy Mother of God, and this is an example of literature that tries to explain what might
00:24:35.220 have happened to Mary in Catholic belief.
00:24:40.160 The Holy Mother of God answered and said to me,
00:24:43.280 The Jews have sworn that after I have died, they will burn my body.
00:24:47.240 And I, John, answered and said to her,
00:24:49.460 Thy holy and precious body will by no means see corruption.
00:24:53.880 I do not think, that's interesting because I immediately think of a passage in the Old
00:24:59.800 Testament that is a prophecy of Jesus who says that his body will never see corruption.
00:25:05.100 Your holy one, your chosen, will never see corruption.
00:25:07.320 So just interesting language there.
00:25:08.600 Do not think that it is now the resurrection, but on this account,
00:25:12.160 you have risen out of your tombs that you may go to give greeting to an honor and wonder
00:25:17.740 working of the mother of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
00:25:22.460 As far as biblical evidence, Catholics refer to Revelation 12.
00:25:26.000 This is the one that I see most often.
00:25:28.000 Verses 1 through 6 to support the claim that Mary is in heaven right now, not just her soul,
00:25:33.080 but her physical body as well.
00:25:35.460 So this is Revelation 12.
00:25:37.060 A great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet
00:25:41.560 and on her head, a crown of 12 stars.
00:25:44.120 She was pregnant, was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.
00:25:48.980 Another sign appeared in heaven, behold, a great red dragon with seven heads and 10 horns
00:25:53.280 and on his head, seven diadems.
00:25:55.640 If you are not a Christian, I do not recommend starting in the book of Revelation.
00:25:59.260 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them onto the earth.
00:26:04.400 And then it talks more about this woman that she gave birth to a male child who was to rule
00:26:09.460 all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God into his throne
00:26:13.560 and the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which she
00:26:18.320 is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
00:26:22.440 So this is end times prophecy.
00:26:24.880 We've done episodes on the end times.
00:26:27.840 We won't get into all the eschatology right now, but the Catholic belief is that this is talking
00:26:33.480 about Mary and that this points to her assumption that her body is also there.
00:26:41.560 And then we can talk about the veneration of Mary.
00:26:43.900 This is probably what evangelicals, all Protestants are most familiar with.
00:26:49.020 It is, and I'm just explaining the Protestant side here, very uncomfortable for Protestants to
00:26:55.320 see how Mary is venerated in the Catholic Church because it looks like worship.
00:27:04.820 However, I do want to make clear that the Catholic Church says they condemn, they say that they
00:27:10.520 condemn the worship of Mary and the worship of anyone outside of the Father, Son, and Holy
00:27:15.300 Spirit.
00:27:15.740 The Catechism of the Catholic Church does describe Mary, as I said, as the queen over all things,
00:27:21.740 though they would say she is subordinate and dependent upon Christ.
00:27:25.920 They also call her an advocate, a helper, a benefactress, and a mediatrix.
00:27:32.340 Mediatrix refers to her role as an intercessor who facilitates the distribution of God's grace
00:27:37.880 to humanity through her prayers.
00:27:40.520 So the prayers that she takes herself and also that she gets from Catholics who pray to her,
00:27:46.540 they believe that she is carrying those prayers to God.
00:27:50.720 The Catholic Church also encourages and trusts in all cares and petitions to Mary, claiming
00:27:55.460 she prays for believers as she did for herself.
00:27:59.240 And again, they cite Revelation, the idea that saints in heaven are praying, are looking down,
00:28:07.840 and they're praying for us.
00:28:09.820 They would say that this supports the idea of praying to Catholic saints and specifically
00:28:14.360 praying to Mary since she has this special place as the mother of God.
00:28:19.280 The belief is that she is closest to Jesus, so why not pray to the person closest to Jesus
00:28:25.140 and ask Mary to pray for you?
00:28:27.520 So that is the logic behind that.
00:28:30.280 There are also some other ideas that aren't necessarily dogmas, but stem from dogmas and
00:28:35.920 doctrines in the Catholic Church that we see among Catholics today.
00:28:39.620 Someone named Catholic Pat on X, Patrick Neve.
00:28:43.660 He said, Mary was and is necessary for salvation, otherwise she wouldn't have been a part of it.
00:28:49.860 If we are to give the benefit of the doubt there, maybe this has just meant that necessary
00:28:55.660 in the sense that she did a very vital thing in giving birth to Jesus.
00:29:01.480 I'm not sure if that's exactly what he meant or if he means that you have to actually pray
00:29:06.000 to Mary to receive salvation.
00:29:07.580 And then we've got someone named Anthony who also seems to be a Catholic influencer on X.
00:29:11.280 If you do not accept Mary as your personal mother and intercessor, you cannot have Christ
00:29:16.560 as your personal Lord and Savior.
00:29:19.440 He is a podcaster, host of the Avoiding Babylon podcast.
00:29:23.060 And so I've seen this kind of belief purported often by Catholics that Mary has to be your
00:29:29.600 personal mother, your intercessor.
00:29:31.100 She is your way to Jesus.
00:29:34.260 So as I said, the Catholic Church says that you don't worship anyone except for God himself.
00:29:39.940 The veneration, however, of Mary is extremely prominent, I would say, and central in the
00:29:48.360 Catholic Church.
00:29:49.520 There is a procession, a festival that happens every year that celebrates the Lady of Guadalupe.
00:29:55.600 This is celebrating the Virgin Mary.
00:29:58.360 Here is an example of that procession happening last year in San Diego.
00:30:02.880 1,000 members of the Catholic Church stepping off in celebration of the Virgin Mary and the
00:30:11.840 hope they say she gave the world.
00:30:14.260 I've always been committed to my religion and I enjoy being a part of it because of the
00:30:17.820 sense of community.
00:30:20.880 That's why so many of the floats had Virgin Mary representations.
00:30:24.420 In 2023, this kind of thing is also something that's reported on quite often by Catholics
00:30:31.400 around the world.
00:30:32.460 Churchgoers in Mexico claim to have witnessed a miracle after spotting a statue of Virgin
00:30:36.680 Mary that appeared to have real tears pouring down her cheeks.
00:30:42.420 And then you also have a lot of people talking about Marian apparitions, claiming that Mary appeared
00:30:50.660 to them in some kind of vision or came to them and conveyed a message to them in their dreams.
00:30:59.780 There are a variety of hymns and songs sung to Mary that we can see within the Catholic Church.
00:31:06.840 An emphasis on praying the rosary is extremely central to Catholic practice on a daily basis.
00:31:16.980 Now, we will say the rosary is meditating on different mysteries of the life of Christ,
00:31:22.280 and those different mysteries do have a basis in Scripture.
00:31:26.760 There are biblical citations within the rosary, but you see kind of the mentality of praying
00:31:32.600 the rosary here.
00:31:33.520 There is someone by the name of Rosary Son on Acts who said,
00:31:38.080 Pray the rosary daily.
00:31:39.680 Let Mary guide your soul to Christ.
00:31:42.980 And that is, it seems, the belief among many Catholics that she is basically the Sherpa and
00:31:49.180 the guide of the Christian soul or of the soul to Jesus Christ and to salvation.
00:31:57.000 There are some other arguments that we'll get into about Mary believing that she is the new
00:32:05.760 Eve.
00:32:06.840 And in fact, they argue that when Jesus calls Mary woman in a couple references in the New
00:32:13.560 Testament, that he is actually referring to her as the new Eve.
00:32:19.200 There is also an argument that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant described in Exodus 25, 10 through
00:32:26.660 13, and Hebrews 9, 3 through 4.
00:32:30.160 The Ark of the Covenant is a gold-covered chest symbolizing holiness, purity, consecration to
00:32:35.820 God, containing stone tablets, air and staff, and manna of bread.
00:32:39.760 And they argue that Mary is actually the New Testament mirror of the Old Testament Ark of
00:32:45.560 the Covenant because she is pure and holy and carried the way of salvation in Jesus.
00:32:52.280 And they would cite again Luke 1, when the angel appeared to Mary and that the Holy Spirit will
00:32:57.340 come upon you.
00:32:58.580 And so now she contains this way of salvation in a similar fashion to what the Ark of the
00:33:05.840 Covenant did, Catholics would argue, and then you also have various Old Testament passages
00:33:12.260 describing the Ark of the Covenant that they say looks a lot like Mary in the New Testament.
00:33:18.380 All right, a couple more things on that.
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00:34:25.640 So, putting a bow on the Catholic side of this, and then we'll get into the Protestant
00:34:36.000 view of Mary.
00:34:38.040 Catholics believe that Mary, as the mother of God and the queen of heaven, hears all prayers
00:34:42.780 directed to her due to her exalted state in heaven, where she united with God's will,
00:34:47.820 participates in his divine plan.
00:34:50.220 As I already said, the Catechism of the Catholic Church calls her the Mediatrix, and so she
00:34:54.960 is a mediator between us and Jesus.
00:34:58.040 Catholics argue that her intercession is supported by her actions at the wedding at Cana, and
00:35:03.700 we talked about this with Lila.
00:35:06.480 She is part of Jesus' first miracle, where in John 2, on the third day, there was a wedding
00:35:14.400 at Cana in Galilee.
00:35:16.160 The mother of Jesus was there.
00:35:17.440 Jesus was also invited into the wedding with his disciples.
00:35:20.800 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, they have no wine.
00:35:24.840 And Jesus said to her, woman, what does this have to do with me?
00:35:27.320 My hour has not yet come.
00:35:28.500 His mother said to the servants, do whatever he tells you.
00:35:33.200 And actually, on that part of the episode, we had to go back in and clarify a little bit
00:35:38.160 because it was misquoted at first of Jesus saying, do whatever she tells you.
00:35:43.640 But this is Mary saying, do whatever Jesus tells you.
00:35:46.940 But they do cite that passage.
00:35:48.760 Catholics cite Revelation 5-8 and 8-3-4, where the elders and angels in heaven offer prayers
00:35:54.260 to the saints of God.
00:35:57.080 The Catholic Church doesn't claim Mary is omniscient, but holds that God grants her the supernatural
00:36:03.040 ability to be aware of prayers and to carry them to God.
00:36:06.840 Big responsibility, millions and millions of praying Catholics on earth that the Catholic
00:36:12.040 Church claims she has the capacity and the power to not only hear, understand, but consciously
00:36:16.660 bring to God.
00:36:17.960 Okay, so that is the Catholic view of Mary.
00:36:19.980 I hope that my beloved Catholics out there, that you felt like it was as fair and as accurate
00:36:24.600 and as thorough as possible.
00:36:26.120 We really worked so hard to do that.
00:36:28.280 Let me tell you the Protestant view.
00:36:30.120 And you guys know I'm a Protestant.
00:36:31.500 I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe this and that I don't believe that it's backed
00:36:35.560 by Scripture, because I absolutely do.
00:36:38.240 But I will also try to be as neutral as I can in describing this before I get into what
00:36:43.880 I really think is important for us to remember when it comes to any doctrine, but especially,
00:36:49.580 I think, the doctrine of Mary.
00:36:50.920 So most Protestants hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which I know is a big sticking
00:36:58.760 point between Protestants and Catholics.
00:37:01.120 But let me explain something about Sola Scriptura.
00:37:03.540 So it's part of the five solas that were really established and popularized after the Reformation.
00:37:09.080 The Reformation happened in the 1500s with Martin Luther, who was a Catholic himself.
00:37:14.760 He had issues with what was going on in the Catholic Church, what was going on with the papacy.
00:37:18.440 He was not trying to leave the Catholic Church.
00:37:20.920 He was not trying to start Protestantism.
00:37:23.020 He just had problems, 99 problems to be specific.
00:37:27.700 And he posted those before the days of social media, and that spread like wildfire, because
00:37:32.440 a lot of people had problems with some of the practices of the Catholic Church at the time.
00:37:36.800 I don't think anyone intentionally was trying to create new denominations, but people wanted
00:37:42.080 to read the Bible for themselves, and they wanted to understand the gospel.
00:37:44.900 They wanted to understand the way of salvation.
00:37:46.680 And Martin Luther, when he started that spark that lit the fire of the Reformation, one of
00:37:54.960 the best things the Reformation gave us was access to scriptures and understanding that
00:37:59.980 salvation is through faith in Christ alone.
00:38:03.880 So Sola Scriptura is a principle that comes from that time that does not say that we don't
00:38:08.620 care about our churches, that we don't care about authority, that we don't care about tradition.
00:38:14.100 That is not true.
00:38:15.460 We do believe in tradition.
00:38:16.980 We believe in sound theology, and we believe in the authority of the local church, and
00:38:22.300 of course, the authority of Christ.
00:38:24.580 However, we believe that all of these human authorities must be in submission to the God-breathed,
00:38:31.600 inerrant, infallible authority of scripture.
00:38:34.280 So if human beings say anything is a doctrine or a dogma, we go back to the inerrant, infallible
00:38:40.640 word of God and say, but what does the Bible say?
00:38:44.020 And the Catholic Church actually also holds that the Bible is divinely inspired, that it
00:38:48.820 is inerrant, that it is infallible.
00:38:51.320 Now, there are some books that Catholics include in the Bible that Protestants don't.
00:38:55.020 There's good reason for that, by the way.
00:38:56.940 It's not just Protestants willy-nilly taking out those books of the Bible.
00:39:00.360 So it's important to know that, but that's another discussion for another day.
00:39:04.660 But both Protestants and Catholics say that the Bible is the word of God, inerrant, and
00:39:10.120 infallible.
00:39:11.160 It's simply that Catholics believe that the authority of the Catholic Church is equal to
00:39:16.780 the authority of the Bible.
00:39:18.500 We would say the authority of any human institution is in submission to scripture.
00:39:26.560 So we believe that's the foundation for this.
00:39:29.280 So when we are trying to understand who Mary is, we are looking at scripture, and there
00:39:35.320 are some things that we see, and there are some things that we don't see.
00:39:39.680 So Grace to You, which is John MacArthur's ministry, says this,
00:39:44.580 While acknowledging that Mary was the most extraordinary of women, it is appropriate to inject a word
00:39:50.720 of caution against the common tendency to elevate her too much.
00:39:54.580 She was, after all, a woman, John MacArthur explains, not a demigoddess or a quasi-deiformed
00:40:01.320 creature who somehow transcended the rest of her race.
00:40:05.420 Catholic apologist Paul Maxey admits that the Marian dogmas of immaculate conception, perpetual
00:40:11.060 virginity, and assumption are not explicitly taught in the Bible.
00:40:15.400 But Catholics lean on tradition and on storytelling there to kind of come up with these dogmas.
00:40:21.660 So it is not really argued by Catholics that this is explicitly seen in scripture,
00:40:27.220 which is, of course, one of Protestants' big problems with it.
00:40:31.140 Protestants agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus.
00:40:34.880 So let's go through these dogmas.
00:40:36.660 Mother of God, Theotokos.
00:40:38.820 Protestants agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus.
00:40:41.320 We agree that Jesus is fully God and fully human.
00:40:44.660 And thus, we might affirm the title Theotokos, but we would argue that at the Council of Ephesus,
00:40:52.500 when the transfer from Theotokos to mother of God took place, that something else took place
00:41:00.320 in that translation and transfer, that has caused a lot of confusion.
00:41:05.780 And it lies in an implication that Mary is being ascribed some level of divinity.
00:41:15.620 Because what we must be careful of is to not argue that God has a source, because that would
00:41:21.320 be heresy.
00:41:22.020 I think even the Catholic Church would agree with that, that God was created or that he
00:41:26.580 was initiated by Mary, that she was a part of God's beginning.
00:41:32.560 Because we know that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:41:36.340 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:41:40.100 Hebrews 13.8, that he is the uncreated one, that he doesn't have a beginning.
00:41:47.000 So while it is true that she is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God, we just want to make
00:41:52.580 sure that we are drawing a distinction there that Mary is not God's source, which I hope
00:41:58.240 my Catholic friends would agree with.
00:42:00.080 So that's more of just ensuring that we are really clear on that point.
00:42:06.300 Second dogma, immaculate conception.
00:42:08.540 This idea that Mary was born without any original sin.
00:42:13.340 We reject that because we do not see any support for that whatsoever in Scripture.
00:42:19.660 For example, this argument that says in Luke 1, when the angel hailed Mary as full of grace.
00:42:25.680 Yes, Jesus was also described as full of grace and truth, but also Stephen, who was a martyr,
00:42:33.840 who shared the gospel with unbelieving people in the book of Acts, he was also described as
00:42:40.140 full of grace, full of grace and power.
00:42:44.440 And so I don't think that Catholic doctrine teaches that Stephen also was without original sin.
00:42:51.400 However, if we are going to argue that anyone described as full of grace is without original
00:42:58.780 sin, then we would have to argue again that I think that Stephen is too.
00:43:04.180 But of course, he's not.
00:43:05.440 We read in Romans 3, 23, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
00:43:12.240 In Luke 1, 47, Mary even talks about needing a Savior herself.
00:43:20.380 Luke 1, 47 says,
00:43:21.980 And my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior.
00:43:26.160 We would argue that the immaculate conception that Mary doesn't have original sin lacks any
00:43:31.880 support in the early church, that it was denied by several church fathers, and that we see
00:43:38.600 no evidence for that in Scripture, which we agree as Catholics and Protestants, is an authority,
00:43:46.500 an inerrant, infallible authority.
00:43:50.480 This next idea of perpetual virginity, that—and this, of course, is what sparked this whole
00:43:56.740 debate this week—that Mary had made this vow of virginity and that she never had sex with
00:44:04.480 Joseph—I actually found a lot of the posts about this at the time from Catholics defending
00:44:11.200 this idea of perpetual virginity very disturbing because I found them very crass talking about
00:44:16.800 Joseph, that Joseph wouldn't want—I can't even say what some of the people said, that
00:44:21.980 Joseph wouldn't want to, you know, insert sexual act, you know, fill in the blank there
00:44:28.320 with Mary after her womb and after her birth canal had birthed Jesus, is basically what
00:44:34.940 he was saying.
00:44:35.720 And that seems to forget the fact that sex in marriage is holy, that it is beautiful,
00:44:41.520 that it is one of the first commands that God gives Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.
00:44:46.960 It's not some dirty thing.
00:44:48.880 Joseph wouldn't have been dirtying Mary or making her unclean by having sex with his wife.
00:44:54.800 The two shall become one flesh.
00:44:56.920 This mystery is profound, but I am telling you that it refers to Christ and the church.
00:45:02.340 That's Ephesians 5.
00:45:03.580 Wow, that union of a man and a woman is actually a reflection of an eternal reality, the redemptive
00:45:09.840 story of the marriage between Christ and his bride, the church.
00:45:13.420 And so that mentality that she was so pure that she couldn't have been dirtied by her own
00:45:18.420 husband through sex is just wrong.
00:45:20.720 Like it doesn't even match the Catholic mentality of what marriage and church is.
00:45:26.180 But that aside, we also simply do not see support for that idea.
00:45:31.840 We see in Matthew 1.25, but Joseph knew her not, so knew in the biblical sense, didn't have
00:45:38.820 sex with her until she had given birth to a son and he called his name Jesus.
00:45:45.280 According to theologian C.S.
00:45:47.040 Keener, the natural reading of heos suggests, so that word until, that Greek word for until,
00:45:53.380 suggests a change after the sated time.
00:45:56.460 And this is supported by references to Jesus's siblings.
00:46:02.740 And there are several references to Jesus's siblings.
00:46:05.740 For example, John 2.12.
00:46:07.620 After this, Jesus went down to Capernaum with his mother and his brothers and his disciples,
00:46:13.120 and they stayed there for a few days.
00:46:16.960 And the argument is over this word adelphoi, meaning from the same womb.
00:46:22.820 Some people are arguing, I would say Catholics are arguing, that this Greek word could actually
00:46:28.000 mean cousins.
00:46:29.360 But actually, according to Thayer's Greek lexicon, it literally means from the same womb.
00:46:35.300 Also, Luke 2.7 describes Jesus as Mary's firstborn, prototokos, implying that she had other children
00:46:44.340 later.
00:46:45.020 If Jesus were her only child, the term only begotten, monogenes, hopefully I'm saying all
00:46:51.860 these Greek words correctly, would likely have been used.
00:46:57.120 So he's referred to as the firstborn throughout the Gospels.
00:47:00.840 He is also referred to as someone with siblings, and Mary is referred to as a mother who has
00:47:07.160 multiple children.
00:47:08.700 In Acts 1.14 and John 7.5, they distinguish Jesus's brothers from the apostles.
00:47:15.160 And note their initial disbelief in him, supporting the idea that they were close family members,
00:47:20.880 actual brothers, not just relatives or associates.
00:47:25.100 We see that in Acts 1.13-14.
00:47:29.940 In John 7.5, we read,
00:47:31.620 For not even his brothers, not just his friends, not just his disciples, not even his brothers
00:47:37.620 believed in him.
00:47:40.100 Matthew 13.55-56 describes Jesus as the carpenter's son, with Mary as his mother, and his brothers
00:47:47.420 James and Joseph and Simon and Judas, and all of his sisters, presenting them as a family
00:47:53.040 unit, which makes interpreting brothers and sisters as cousins or relatives less likely.
00:47:58.480 And also, we don't have any biblical or historical evidence for the idea that Joseph was his stepfather,
00:48:06.320 that he was married before and that he had previous children.
00:48:11.620 This idea that Mary took a vow of virginity, that's also not supported by Scripture because
00:48:18.540 Mary said, how will this be since I am a virgin while she was betrothed to Joseph, as we read
00:48:24.920 in the Gospel of Luke and the other Gospels as well.
00:48:28.700 So that would have been before their marriage, before they had consummated their marriage.
00:48:33.060 So she still would have been a virgin, but engaged to be married to Joseph.
00:48:36.780 And so I would say it is an assumption that comes from other Catholic assumptions about
00:48:43.440 Mary to say that she was immaculately conceived herself, that she was without original sin,
00:48:49.400 and that also she was a perpetual virgin.
00:48:52.600 And I simply don't think it is necessary to believe those things about Mary to respect her
00:48:59.200 or honor her, or look at her prayer in the book of Luke and say, wow, that was beautiful.
00:49:07.380 She is honorable.
00:49:08.780 She is respectable.
00:49:10.240 And we can look to her as some kind of example of humility.
00:49:14.040 I don't think these dogmas are necessary to be able to say that, and we should be able
00:49:18.620 to say those things.
00:49:20.380 All right, let me get to the last sponsor, and then we will close out on this last dogma,
00:49:25.860 veneration.
00:49:26.400 And then what I think is really important to know in all of this.
00:49:31.420 Fellowship Home Loans is doing work not just by the book, but by the book.
00:49:37.580 They care about biblical principles.
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00:50:33.980 This last dogma, the assumption of Mary, we definitely don't see biblical evidence for.
00:50:45.160 Even Trent Horn of Catholic Answers says that Revelation 12 that we mentioned earlier, that
00:50:51.420 we read earlier, is a symbolic text and that this is not actually sufficient to prove that
00:50:58.160 Mary was assumed into heaven.
00:50:59.380 That is what Catholic Answers says.
00:51:01.720 But Catholics obviously believe that this helps their case, that even though this is symbolic
00:51:06.520 and poetic language and revelation, that this could support the idea of her being bodily assumed.
00:51:12.520 I would argue as a Protestant that that is a stretch.
00:51:15.520 And again, just completely unnecessary for the rightful honoring of Mary.
00:51:20.800 There is no historical evidence whatsoever that Mary is assumed into heaven.
00:51:26.320 And I would say it's dangerous territory because you are ascribing to her God-like characteristics
00:51:34.280 that do not exist in Scripture.
00:51:38.600 And actually, I would argue, as I'll argue in a little bit, inhibit us from true and unadulterated
00:51:44.980 worship of Jesus.
00:51:47.380 Now, Catholics argue, as I said, that they don't worship Mary and that they don't offer her undue
00:51:54.400 reference, but that they see her as a vehicle to God.
00:51:59.400 But I think what's important here is that Catholics do call her the mediatrics and do believe that
00:52:06.180 she is carrying prayers to God, that she is a mediator.
00:52:10.480 But I think it's important here to look at a few passages.
00:52:16.620 Number one, the Bible does not direct Christians to pray to anyone other than God.
00:52:21.380 We do not see this in the Gospels.
00:52:25.200 We do not see this in the Epistles.
00:52:28.220 Jesus actually corrected those who gave Mary undue reference because she was Jesus's mother.
00:52:35.160 In Luke 11, 27 through 28, as he said these things, Jesus, a woman in the crowd raised her
00:52:40.860 voice and said to him, blessed is the womb who bore you and the breast at which you nursed.
00:52:45.780 But he said, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it.
00:52:53.360 Jesus had a few opportunities, spoken Luke 11, the wedding at Cana, to give special reverence
00:53:02.140 and special honor to Mary.
00:53:04.300 And he does not.
00:53:06.040 He chooses not to.
00:53:07.620 And actually, he takes this as a lesson.
00:53:11.020 This is a line that I could see a lot of Catholics repeating.
00:53:13.800 Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breast at which you nursed.
00:53:17.020 And Jesus doesn't say yes and amen.
00:53:19.420 Jesus doesn't say, yes, this is the prayer that you should pray.
00:53:22.620 Jesus says, actually, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it.
00:53:30.320 That seems to me that he is saying that the blessing, the specialness, the sacredness is for
00:53:38.580 all, Mary and everyone else who hears the word of the Lord and keeps it.
00:53:44.300 We also read that clearly in Hebrews 14, 16, that we can approach the throne of God ourselves.
00:53:53.860 Hebrews 4, 16, let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace that we may receive
00:54:00.460 mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
00:54:03.980 And this is such an important point that I want you to know is that if you are a Christian,
00:54:09.320 if you have, according to Ephesians 2, been saved by grace through faith, you have full
00:54:16.060 access in confidence to go before the throne of God because you have been entirely made clean.
00:54:24.200 Yes, even if you sinned this morning, even if you haven't gone to confession yet, even if
00:54:29.520 you haven't been confirmed in the Catholic church, even if you have not been baptized, if you have
00:54:34.700 been saved by grace through faith in Christ, it is so important for you to know that this is the
00:54:39.560 gospel that you can approach God with confidence, not with shame, but with confidence because you
00:54:46.140 have been covered fully once and for all by the blood of Christ.
00:54:50.940 That's what it means to be justified, that Jesus is your advocate.
00:54:55.360 He is your one advocate and he is the only sufficient one because he is the only one without sin and he
00:55:01.320 died to save you and he is God himself.
00:55:03.540 And he is the one Christian who stands before you, looks to God and says, do not give them the
00:55:09.220 wrath they deserve.
00:55:10.720 Give them the grace that they need because of me, because of the perfection that I have given them.
00:55:17.040 I've taken away their sins.
00:55:18.660 I have given them these clean robes of righteousness.
00:55:21.080 That is Jesus's job and Jesus's job alone.
00:55:25.660 First Timothy 2, 5 says, for there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men.
00:55:32.760 One.
00:55:34.400 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
00:55:40.560 Hebrews 7, 25 says, consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God
00:55:45.860 through him, through Christ, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
00:55:52.920 God is our intercessor.
00:55:54.580 The Holy Spirit is the one who helps us in our weakness.
00:55:58.240 Romans 8, 26 through 27.
00:55:59.940 Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
00:56:02.140 For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with
00:56:06.560 groanings too deep for words.
00:56:08.160 And he who searches hearts, that's the Holy Spirit, knows what is the mind of the Spirit.
00:56:13.220 Because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
00:56:18.600 So really, we see God, Jesus, the Spirit, all right there working in our hearts and minds
00:56:24.840 and no mention of Mary, no mention of anyone in heaven.
00:56:29.640 2 Corinthians 1, 11, you also must help us by prayer so that many will give thanks on our behalf
00:56:34.640 for the blessing granted to us through the prayers of many.
00:56:38.720 So while we ask our fellow Christians for prayers, there is no indication, I would argue
00:56:44.260 that the Revelation passage doesn't support this at all, that we should be praying to
00:56:48.560 saints or that we should be praying to Mary, that people in heaven hear our prayers, have
00:56:53.360 the capacity to understand multiple languages and the supernatural power to carry them to
00:56:58.240 Jesus.
00:56:58.740 And I would say not only do we not read that, but it is unnecessary because your mediator is
00:57:03.980 Christ.
00:57:05.320 Your mediator is Christ.
00:57:07.020 He is the one that carries the prayers for you.
00:57:12.320 I don't believe that we see evidence of Mary as the new Eve.
00:57:16.140 I don't believe that we see evidence of Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant.
00:57:22.480 I don't see evidence that when Jesus calls Mary a woman, that he is paying her special honor,
00:57:28.700 that he is secretly indicating that she is the new Eve.
00:57:32.400 I think Mary is extremely special.
00:57:34.260 She has an extremely special role.
00:57:37.100 I mean, what an incredible honor.
00:57:39.040 I think we should honor her.
00:57:40.480 I think we should look to her example.
00:57:42.720 But I do not think that we should elevate her to a place where we do not see her elevated
00:57:47.440 by Jesus himself.
00:57:49.140 We don't see her elevated by the apostles.
00:57:52.520 We don't see her elevated by the writers of the epistles, even by the gospel writers.
00:57:57.980 I mean, think about this.
00:58:00.540 If Mary was this central to the Christian faith, if it is true that Mary has always been honored
00:58:06.120 in this way from the very beginning of Christianity, then we would see it somewhere in the New Testament.
00:58:13.860 We would see it somewhere in the epistles.
00:58:16.780 We would see some kind of veneration there, some kind of indication.
00:58:23.740 And I could argue the same thing for the authority of Peter as being the pope.
00:58:29.260 That's something else we never see in the New Testament, nor do we see the level of veneration
00:58:35.380 of Mary, this idea that she can intercede for us, and of just a reminder that there is a name
00:58:42.880 for praying to the dead.
00:58:44.900 And I'm not talking about just spiritually dead, because of course we know that Christians are
00:58:49.820 spiritually alive in heaven, but praying through those or to those who are not actually here
00:58:57.900 on earth, and it is necromancy, and it is not something that Christians should engage in.
00:59:03.440 And that's how strongly I feel about this.
00:59:05.760 And I understand that there are going to be a lot of Catholic listeners and friends
00:59:09.020 who are offended by that, but I do want to explain the Protestant belief on that.
00:59:13.560 And my belief is that this gets in the way of seeing Christ as your fully sufficient Savior and mediator.
00:59:25.120 R.C. Sproul, he was a Protestant theologian.
00:59:28.880 He said,
00:59:29.160 Mary is not divine.
00:59:30.200 She's a sinner saved by grace just as we are.
00:59:32.400 But what a gracious, gracious sinner she was.
00:59:34.780 I agree with that.
00:59:36.180 I read in this text a willingness to do the will of the Lord.
00:59:39.200 That's what we can learn from Mary, how to be in subjection to God as she was.
00:59:46.620 And I agree with that.
00:59:48.800 I think that we should look to her humility and look to her subjection and see it and submission
00:59:54.900 to God and see it as a great example of what a godly woman looks like, but I don't believe
01:00:02.180 that we should be praying to her.
01:00:03.700 I don't believe that we should believe these dogmas that are not supported by Scripture.
01:00:08.360 And again, I think it gets in the way of the unadulterated worship of Jesus and the beauty
01:00:15.260 of the gospel, which gives you full access to God's throne through Christ right now.
01:00:22.560 All right.
01:00:23.460 That's all we've got time for today.
01:00:25.440 We will be back here on Friday.
01:00:45.260 We will be back here on Friday.