Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 30, 2025


Ep 1224 ｜ The Mary Debate： Catholics vs. Protestants


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 1 minute

Words per minute

159.36919

Word count

9,762

Sentence count

577

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Hate speech

32

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

A recent post on the internet about Jesus' siblings had Catholics and Protestants debating about Mary. What is true about her? Did she have original sin? Was she a perpetual virgin? We will be going through the Catholic doctrines and dogmas of Mary and what Protestants believe about her on today's episode of Relatable.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.700 A recent post on X about Jesus' siblings had Catholics and Protestants debating about Mary.
00:00:08.560 What is true about her?
00:00:09.960 Did she have original sin? 1.00
00:00:11.560 Was she a perpetual virgin?
00:00:13.640 We will be going through the Catholic doctrines and dogmas of Mary today and what Protestants
00:00:19.080 believe and what I specifically believe about Mary on today's episode of Relatable.
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00:00:45.280 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.
00:00:47.040 Happy Wednesday.
00:00:47.960 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.
00:00:50.560 Before we get into our discussion of Mary, Catholic versus Protestant doctrine on the
00:00:58.340 Virgin Mary, I do want to ask you guys to please subscribe.
00:01:02.320 Subscribe to whatever platform you listen to or watch this podcast on.
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00:01:12.120 don't realize you haven't actually hit the subscribe button.
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00:01:29.620 sure that we are serving you to the very best of our ability.
00:01:33.360 All right.
00:01:33.640 Today is Theology Wednesday, and because you guys loved that Israel episode so much, I want 0.97
00:01:41.140 to follow that same format where I say, this is what one side believes, and I want to give
00:01:47.340 the fairest and the truest representation of that side as possible, no matter where I land
00:01:53.100 on it.
00:01:53.700 This is what the other side believes, and this is what I believe.
00:01:57.480 Because this is not only about persuading people, I would say it's not even primarily throughout
00:02:04.040 the episode about persuading people.
00:02:07.240 This is really about educating people.
00:02:09.580 In this particular episode, what Protestants believe, most Protestants anyway, specifically
00:02:15.600 evangelicals believe about Jesus's mother, and then what Catholics teach about Jesus's mother.
00:02:22.120 Now, I want to say up front, you guys hopefully know this.
00:02:25.920 I know my tried and true, consistent Catholic subscribers do, that I love my Catholic friends.
00:02:33.600 I love my Catholic followers.
00:02:35.760 I have some really healthy, productive, respectful debates and discussions with you guys in the
00:02:42.560 comments, in the messages.
00:02:44.520 I am never offended by your disagreement.
00:02:47.880 I know that my supporters and friends who are Catholic, they hold sincere beliefs, and they
00:02:55.880 care about me, and they care about their faith, and they want to discuss those things.
00:03:02.220 I have had these conversations with George Farmer, with Trent Horn, with Lila Rose, with
00:03:08.100 Matt Walsh, with Michael Knowles.
00:03:10.280 Not every time I talk to these people do I debate them on theology, but I have debated all of those
00:03:16.620 people on different biblical doctrines, and I still respect and admire those people so much,
00:03:23.340 and I'm eager to link arms with them when it comes to the many, many issues that we agree on.
00:03:29.640 One of my biggest questions about Catholic theology as a Protestant, Reformed Protestant myself,
00:03:36.840 I hold to the tenets of the Reformation as a Baptist, has been about Mary. 0.78
00:03:43.180 And this is something that I have asked almost all of the people I listed about, George Farmer
00:03:48.300 and Trent Horn and Lila Rose.
00:03:50.860 And because, to me, I have not gotten an answer that I believe has given sufficient support for
00:03:59.640 many of the dogmas that the Catholic Church teaches, I wanted to dig into them myself.
00:04:04.520 And as I always like to do, I want to steel man the Catholic side.
00:04:09.620 We have Catholics that work on this team, that work in this company, and we sent the 1.00
00:04:15.640 representation of the Catholic side of the dogmas of Mary to them and said, hey, is this fair?
00:04:21.560 Like, is this really what you believe?
00:04:23.720 That's how important it is to me to make sure that we get that right.
00:04:27.260 Then I'll tell you the Protestant side of that, the biblical support for that.
00:04:31.480 And then, of course, my perspective on it.
00:04:34.960 And yes, there is an aspect of this that hopes to persuade.
00:04:37.820 But as I said, it's a lot of information.
00:04:39.520 Now, why are we talking about this?
00:04:42.220 Well, a variety of reasons.
00:04:43.660 Like I said, I'm curious about it myself.
00:04:45.900 I've read a lot of Catholic and Protestant resources on it.
00:04:48.360 But there was a debate that was sparked on X just the other day by Jack Posobiec.
00:04:53.520 And he is a fellow conservative that I also respect and really like.
00:04:57.440 I don't have anything personal at all against Jack Posobiec.
00:05:00.980 But he put out a post on X that caused a lot of discussion.
00:05:06.080 And he said, first, he said, yes, this was first on July 16th.
00:05:10.880 He said, Jesus did not have brothers.
00:05:12.880 And then he posted again until this week.
00:05:15.300 I had no idea people seriously thought Jesus had biological siblings.
00:05:20.340 And a lot of people responded to this on both sides of the issue.
00:05:25.640 And he posted later that he still didn't get a sufficient argument from the Protestant side
00:05:31.000 that Jesus did have brothers.
00:05:32.520 Now, if you are an evangelical like me, you might be confused.
00:05:35.700 You probably did not know that Catholics do not believe that Jesus had biological siblings
00:05:42.040 because they believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
00:05:45.800 What I found, and I've talked about this a lot, is that especially in the Bible Belt,
00:05:51.860 Protestants were not taught really anything about Catholicism.
00:05:55.900 I actually think that Catholics probably grew up hearing a little bit more about the Reformation,
00:06:01.860 the negative parts of the Reformation and Protestantism,
00:06:04.800 than Protestants did about any aspect, positive or negative, about Catholicism.
00:06:10.340 And so a lot of this is new information on both sides.
00:06:13.400 So I hope, Catholics and Protestants listening, that we all gain a better understanding of what
00:06:18.420 each side believes.
00:06:19.980 So because of this debate, I did not weigh in on X because I feel like I am like the token
00:06:26.220 conservative evangelical that always wades into the Catholic theological discussions, which
00:06:31.460 I kind of love.
00:06:32.380 But I just didn't want to on social media.
00:06:34.160 I wanted to take a whole episode to do that.
00:06:36.160 So first, let's start with the Catholic view.
00:06:38.400 Let's start with what Catholics actually believe about Mary.
00:06:43.080 There are four main dogmas, and I'll explain what that means when it comes to Catholic
00:06:48.680 doctrine about Jesus's mother.
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00:08:13.840 All right.
00:08:14.100 Before we get into Mary, I have to remind you guys, whether you are Catholic or Protestant,
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00:09:16.400 So, as I said, there are four main dogmas that the Catholic Church teaches are divinely revealed,
00:09:30.540 divinely revealed truths which all Catholics are required to believe. 0.96
00:09:36.520 And these four dogmas shape their view and relationship to Mary.
00:09:40.000 So, a dogma is a definitive teaching or doctrine that is declared by the Catholic Church.
00:09:46.240 And as I said, this is a requirement for all Catholics to believe. 0.58
00:09:50.980 And these four dogmas are that Mary is the mother of God, two, the Immaculate Conception,
00:09:58.120 three, perpetual virginity, and four, the Assumption.
00:10:01.480 So, maybe the first two, you're thinking, okay, well, Protestants believe that to the 0.67
00:10:06.080 Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, except it's a little more nuanced and complex than
00:10:11.120 that.
00:10:11.540 Protestants and Catholics actually do not believe the same things on those two points.
00:10:16.120 But these are the four necessary, non-negotiable doctrines of Mary within the Roman Catholic
00:10:22.600 Church.
00:10:23.040 So, the veneration of Mary, which just means deep respect or devotion, is supported by the
00:10:29.740 Catechism of the Catholic Church.
00:10:32.900 The prayer through her, I would say through her to Jesus, is something that is practiced
00:10:39.340 by many Catholics, but that in itself is not actually a dogma, even though it is very pervasive
00:10:47.940 among Catholics.
00:10:49.040 So, let's go through this first dogma.
00:10:51.640 This first dogma is that Mary is the mother of God.
00:10:56.800 This means God-bearer.
00:10:59.460 And as I said, this is a little bit layered.
00:11:01.900 So, let's get into what this actually means.
00:11:04.780 This is defined at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD, a long time ago.
00:11:10.880 This dogma declares that Mary is the Theotokos' God-bearer because she bore Jesus, who is fully
00:11:18.680 God and fully human.
00:11:20.040 And so, the logic is there.
00:11:22.080 If Jesus is fully God and Mary gave birth to Jesus, then the logic, the math goes that
00:11:30.720 she is the mother of God.
00:11:33.000 The Council of Ephesus was a formal assembly of bishops and church leaders to discuss and
00:11:38.420 settle doctrinal matters.
00:11:40.200 And they emphasized that Mary is not only the mother of Jesus.
00:11:45.480 And this was combating against this idea that was called Nestorianism at the time, and it
00:11:52.580 tried to separate Jesus' humanity from Jesus' godness.
00:11:57.280 And so, that is why the Council of Ephesus at the time said, okay, well, because we have
00:12:03.400 established this doctrine that Jesus was fully man and fully God, which, of course, we agree
00:12:08.720 with, then we have to figure out, was Mary just the mother of Jesus' humanity or was she
00:12:15.180 the mother of God himself?
00:12:16.840 And they decided that, okay, she is actually the mother of God.
00:12:24.600 So, St. Cyril is a bishop of Alexandria who strongly defended core beliefs about Jesus'
00:12:30.040 divinity there.
00:12:31.040 He said, if anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is truly God and therefore the Holy Virgin
00:12:34.340 is the mother of God, since she bore in the flesh the word of God made flesh, let him be
00:12:40.380 an anathema.
00:12:41.320 Here, anathema is a curse.
00:12:43.860 We see that in Scripture.
00:12:45.140 So, let him be a curse.
00:12:46.240 Let him be cast off.
00:12:48.240 So, all Christians agree with that, that Jesus is God and that Mary is Jesus' mother.
00:12:55.720 However, I do want to say that as we will get into, the Protestant belief is a little bit
00:13:03.100 different and that distinction does actually matter.
00:13:06.220 So, that is one dogma, that Mary Theotokos is the mother of God.
00:13:11.540 The second dogma is Immaculate Conception.
00:13:14.340 It's a dogma defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854 that states, quote,
00:13:19.320 The most blessed Virgin Mary and the first instance of her conception by a singular grace
00:13:24.140 and privilege granted by Almighty God in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the state
00:13:28.040 of the human race was preserved free from all stain of original sin.
00:13:33.800 So, if you don't know what original sin is, that is the sin that we all inherit as sons
00:13:39.540 and daughters of Adam.
00:13:41.500 So, the first man, Adam and Eve, sinned in the garden.
00:13:45.340 And the biblical belief is that we have inherited biblical or original sin from him and that
00:13:52.080 Jesus washes away our original sin.
00:13:55.440 And so, the, or all sin, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states this statement along
00:14:03.260 with the idea of her assumption, which we'll talk about in a little bit in Article 9, Paragraph 6.
00:14:08.640 Finally, the Immaculate Virgin preserved from all stain of original sin when the course of
00:14:14.440 her earthly life was finished was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory and exalted
00:14:19.200 by the Lord as queen over all things.
00:14:22.760 So, also understand that the Catholic Church teaches that she has been exalted by God,
00:14:28.200 she has been assumed into heaven as queen of all things, and she never had original sin 0.52
00:14:34.900 that the rest of humanity have.
00:14:37.240 However, they don't say, the Catholic Church does not teach that she didn't need Jesus,
00:14:42.240 they teach that Jesus' righteousness was applied to her retroactively so that she was born
00:14:47.760 without the stain of sin before even Jesus was born.
00:14:51.500 They cite Luke 1.28, where the angel Gabriel greets Mary.
00:14:55.640 They argue that this is an implicit reference to the Immaculate Conception because the angel
00:15:01.420 says, Hail Mary, full of grace, or favored one.
00:15:06.580 And Catholic Answers, this is an apologetics resource, would argue that using this term in
00:15:12.340 the perfect sense, saying that she is full of grace, means that she is sinless, that she
00:15:19.440 was without spot.
00:15:21.260 So, that is the argument there.
00:15:23.440 Catholics believe that the teaching of Mary's Immaculate Conception originated in early Christianity,
00:15:28.180 and that it's been formalized as a dogma that Catholics are required to believe.
00:15:34.460 And they also cite Augustine of Hippo, who also seemed to assert in 415 AD that Mary didn't
00:15:45.040 have the same kind of sinfulness that you and I have.
00:15:49.180 And they would argue that this is necessary in being the God-bearer.
00:15:54.240 The next dogma is perpetual virginity.
00:15:58.860 This dogma claims that Mary remained a virgin before, during, and after Jesus' birth.
00:16:04.960 It was defined by the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD.
00:16:10.300 It gave her the title I.E.
00:16:12.340 Parthenos.
00:16:13.380 I.E.
00:16:13.700 Parthenos.
00:16:14.320 I think I'm pronouncing that correctly, which means the ever virgin.
00:16:18.700 So, this is the dogma that supports Jack Posobiec's claim that Jesus never had any biological brothers
00:16:28.140 and sisters, or fully biological brothers and sisters, because Catholic doctrine says that
00:16:34.740 she must have been a virgin forever.
00:16:37.520 There's a Catholic apologist by the name of Tim Staples that gives three reasons to believe
00:16:42.520 this doctrine.
00:16:44.140 He says that Mary made a vow of perpetual virginity to God before her betrothal to Joseph.
00:16:52.280 And he infers that, if I'm understanding correctly, from Luke 1.34, when she asks the angel,
00:16:59.680 how will this be that I will conceive this baby since I am a virgin?
00:17:05.480 And Staples wrote that a newly married woman would not ask the question, how shall this be?
00:17:11.220 She would know, unless, of course, that woman had taken a vow of virginity. 0.97
00:17:15.600 So, he argues, not what the Protestants have been taught, that she was just betrothed and
00:17:21.360 engaged to Joseph, but he is inferring that she was already married, and she was a virgin,
00:17:29.120 and therefore, she must have taken a vow of virginity, and that that vow would have been
00:17:36.820 kept intact throughout her life.
00:17:40.060 These apologists also cite the Proto-Evangelium of James, which is not in the biblical canon.
00:17:47.160 It's not in the 66 books of the Bible.
00:17:49.360 It's also not in the Apocrypha, so it's not in the Catholic biblical canon.
00:17:53.100 But it's a text from the 2nd century AD that it's used to defend this idea of perpetual
00:17:58.380 virginity.
00:17:59.600 It indicates that Mary was entrusted to Joseph to protect her virginity, that Jesus' siblings 0.89
00:18:04.560 were Joseph's son from a previous marriage, and so, again, the idea that maybe he had
00:18:08.860 half-brothers and sisters.
00:18:10.880 But it is important to know that the Proto-Evangelium of James is not actually considered, even by
00:18:17.660 Catholics, to be a historical document by most scholars due to its late composition, its
00:18:23.660 lack of corroboration in earlier sources, and more legendary elements, the idea of Mary
00:18:29.620 living in a temple.
00:18:31.720 It wasn't included in the New Testament canon for that reason, but it is relied upon by many
00:18:37.760 Catholics to give them an idea of who Mary was and how she should be honored.
00:18:42.960 All right, we've got more in this particular dogma in a second, but let me go ahead and
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00:20:12.360 Staples also argues that the angel's response to Mary in Luke 1 contains nuptial language
00:20:19.080 that seems to go back to Ruth.
00:20:22.020 So he cites Ruth 3.9 when Boaz says to Ruth, who are you?
00:20:28.920 And she answered, I am Ruth, your servant.
00:20:30.620 Spread your wings over your servant, for you are a redeemer.
00:20:35.080 And then he goes to Luke 1.35.
00:20:37.240 When the angel says to Mary, the Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most
00:20:40.580 High will overshadow you.
00:20:41.720 Therefore, the child to be born will be called Holy, the Son of God.
00:20:46.920 So Staples argues that the Holy Spirit is Mary's spouse, but Joseph was her spouse and
00:20:51.280 protector on this earth.
00:20:53.440 But again, he would argue that they never consummated their marriage because of the supposed vow of
00:20:58.100 virginity.
00:20:58.700 He also refers to John 19.26 when Jesus was crucified, nearing death, gave his mother to
00:21:04.620 the care, and gave his mother to the care of John, even though by law, the responsibility
00:21:10.140 should have gone to the next eldest sibling.
00:21:12.940 Because there were apparently no brothers and sisters present to take on this responsibility,
00:21:17.260 Staples argues, he concludes that Jesus had none.
00:21:20.440 This would be John 19.26 through 27.
00:21:23.660 Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby.
00:21:28.380 He said to his mother, woman, behold your son.
00:21:30.160 He said to the disciple, behold your mother.
00:21:33.280 Another argument that Jesus had no siblings is that the word brothers here, the original
00:21:37.940 Greek, the original Aramaic, could apply to cousins or near relatives.
00:21:44.460 The Aramaic language didn't have a word for at the time.
00:21:48.500 Okay, so that is the third dogma.
00:21:50.920 Here is the fourth dogma.
00:21:52.660 This might be the one that you are most unfamiliar with if you are unfamiliar with Catholic doctrine.
00:21:58.180 And that is the Assumption into Heaven.
00:22:01.140 So this was declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950.
00:22:06.560 And this dogma states that Mary at the end of her earthly life was assumed or taken up.
00:22:12.520 So both her body and soul into Heaven, just like Enoch and Elijah in the Old Testament,
00:22:18.560 though the church does not definitively state whether Mary died and then was assumed or whether
00:22:24.120 she actually didn't have a physical death and she was just assumed into Heaven without dying.
00:22:31.000 Pope Francis said this today, looking at Mary assumed into Heaven, we can say that humility
00:22:36.380 is the way that leads to Heaven.
00:22:37.980 Pope John Paul II, he is a favorite Pope, especially among a lot of conservative Catholics.
00:22:44.440 He said,
00:22:44.760 To understand the Assumption, we must look to Easter, the great mystery of our salvation,
00:22:49.060 which marks the passage of Jesus to the glory of the Father through the Passion, Death, and
00:22:53.360 Resurrection.
00:22:54.520 Mary, who was made to share intimately in this mystery and who also shared in it suffering,
00:22:58.740 is associated on this day with the triumph of Christ.
00:23:04.060 First, they argue, this is according to Catholic Answers, again, an apologetics resource, that
00:23:09.020 early Christians highly valued the relics of saints.
00:23:13.600 And according to Catholic doctrine, saints are not just what Protestants believe in what
00:23:19.060 we read in Scripture, that saints are all the members of the household of God, of all
00:23:22.500 Christians, but there are different qualifications for particular saints in Heaven and saints that
00:23:28.700 you can pray to in the Catholic Church.
00:23:32.380 And so they argue that the early Christians highly valued the relics of saints, often preserving
00:23:36.700 and honoring their bones, but we can't find any remains of Mary.
00:23:42.320 And they would argue that that's odd.
00:23:44.600 She must have been entombed or preserved in some way.
00:23:48.540 No city, neither Jerusalem nor Ephesus, where she likely lived, ever claimed to have her bones
00:23:53.200 or bodily remains.
00:23:54.180 And so it is assumed that she was assumed into Heaven.
00:23:59.080 Catholic apologist Tim Staples argues that manuscript evidence, ancient handwritten documents
00:24:03.320 and fragments dating from the late 3rd to 6th century supports transitus Marii, passage of Mary.
00:24:09.800 This is, again, not considered Scripture, but these are different documents that were written
00:24:16.280 hundreds of years after Jesus died that indicate that perhaps Mary was assumed.
00:24:23.820 There is also a document called The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Dormition of
00:24:28.500 the Holy Mother of God, and this is an example of literature that tries to explain what might
00:24:35.220 have happened to Mary in Catholic belief.
00:24:40.160 The Holy Mother of God answered and said to me,
00:24:43.280 The Jews have sworn that after I have died, they will burn my body. 0.99
00:24:47.240 And I, John, answered and said to her,
00:24:49.460 Thy holy and precious body will by no means see corruption.
00:24:53.880 I do not think, that's interesting because I immediately think of a passage in the Old
00:24:59.800 Testament that is a prophecy of Jesus who says that his body will never see corruption.
00:25:05.100 Your holy one, your chosen, will never see corruption.
00:25:07.320 So just interesting language there.
00:25:08.600 Do not think that it is now the resurrection, but on this account,
00:25:12.160 you have risen out of your tombs that you may go to give greeting to an honor and wonder
00:25:17.740 working of the mother of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
00:25:22.460 As far as biblical evidence, Catholics refer to Revelation 12.
00:25:26.000 This is the one that I see most often.
00:25:28.000 Verses 1 through 6 to support the claim that Mary is in heaven right now, not just her soul,
00:25:33.080 but her physical body as well.
00:25:35.460 So this is Revelation 12.
00:25:37.060 A great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet
00:25:41.560 and on her head, a crown of 12 stars.
00:25:44.120 She was pregnant, was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 0.97
00:25:48.980 Another sign appeared in heaven, behold, a great red dragon with seven heads and 10 horns
00:25:53.280 and on his head, seven diadems.
00:25:55.640 If you are not a Christian, I do not recommend starting in the book of Revelation. 0.99
00:25:59.260 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them onto the earth.
00:26:04.400 And then it talks more about this woman that she gave birth to a male child who was to rule
00:26:09.460 all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God into his throne
00:26:13.560 and the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which she
00:26:18.320 is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
00:26:22.440 So this is end times prophecy.
00:26:24.880 We've done episodes on the end times.
00:26:27.840 We won't get into all the eschatology right now, but the Catholic belief is that this is talking
00:26:33.480 about Mary and that this points to her assumption that her body is also there.
00:26:41.560 And then we can talk about the veneration of Mary.
00:26:43.900 This is probably what evangelicals, all Protestants are most familiar with.
00:26:49.020 It is, and I'm just explaining the Protestant side here, very uncomfortable for Protestants to 0.99
00:26:55.320 see how Mary is venerated in the Catholic Church because it looks like worship.
00:27:04.820 However, I do want to make clear that the Catholic Church says they condemn, they say that they 0.99
00:27:10.520 condemn the worship of Mary and the worship of anyone outside of the Father, Son, and Holy
00:27:15.300 Spirit.
00:27:15.740 The Catechism of the Catholic Church does describe Mary, as I said, as the queen over all things,
00:27:21.740 though they would say she is subordinate and dependent upon Christ.
00:27:25.920 They also call her an advocate, a helper, a benefactress, and a mediatrix.
00:27:32.340 Mediatrix refers to her role as an intercessor who facilitates the distribution of God's grace
00:27:37.880 to humanity through her prayers.
00:27:40.520 So the prayers that she takes herself and also that she gets from Catholics who pray to her,
00:27:46.540 they believe that she is carrying those prayers to God.
00:27:50.720 The Catholic Church also encourages and trusts in all cares and petitions to Mary, claiming
00:27:55.460 she prays for believers as she did for herself.
00:27:59.240 And again, they cite Revelation, the idea that saints in heaven are praying, are looking down,
00:28:07.840 and they're praying for us.
00:28:09.820 They would say that this supports the idea of praying to Catholic saints and specifically
00:28:14.360 praying to Mary since she has this special place as the mother of God.
00:28:19.280 The belief is that she is closest to Jesus, so why not pray to the person closest to Jesus
00:28:25.140 and ask Mary to pray for you?
00:28:27.520 So that is the logic behind that.
00:28:30.280 There are also some other ideas that aren't necessarily dogmas, but stem from dogmas and
00:28:35.920 doctrines in the Catholic Church that we see among Catholics today.
00:28:39.620 Someone named Catholic Pat on X, Patrick Neve.
00:28:43.660 He said, Mary was and is necessary for salvation, otherwise she wouldn't have been a part of it.
00:28:49.860 If we are to give the benefit of the doubt there, maybe this has just meant that necessary
00:28:55.660 in the sense that she did a very vital thing in giving birth to Jesus.
00:29:01.480 I'm not sure if that's exactly what he meant or if he means that you have to actually pray
00:29:06.000 to Mary to receive salvation.
00:29:07.580 And then we've got someone named Anthony who also seems to be a Catholic influencer on X.
00:29:11.280 If you do not accept Mary as your personal mother and intercessor, you cannot have Christ
00:29:16.560 as your personal Lord and Savior.
00:29:19.440 He is a podcaster, host of the Avoiding Babylon podcast.
00:29:23.060 And so I've seen this kind of belief purported often by Catholics that Mary has to be your
00:29:29.600 personal mother, your intercessor.
00:29:31.100 She is your way to Jesus. 0.99
00:29:34.260 So as I said, the Catholic Church says that you don't worship anyone except for God himself.
00:29:39.940 The veneration, however, of Mary is extremely prominent, I would say, and central in the
00:29:48.360 Catholic Church.
00:29:49.520 There is a procession, a festival that happens every year that celebrates the Lady of Guadalupe.
00:29:55.600 This is celebrating the Virgin Mary.
00:29:58.360 Here is an example of that procession happening last year in San Diego.
00:30:02.880 1,000 members of the Catholic Church stepping off in celebration of the Virgin Mary and the
00:30:11.840 hope they say she gave the world.
00:30:14.260 I've always been committed to my religion and I enjoy being a part of it because of the
00:30:17.820 sense of community.
00:30:20.880 That's why so many of the floats had Virgin Mary representations.
00:30:24.420 In 2023, this kind of thing is also something that's reported on quite often by Catholics
00:30:31.400 around the world.
00:30:32.460 Churchgoers in Mexico claim to have witnessed a miracle after spotting a statue of Virgin
00:30:36.680 Mary that appeared to have real tears pouring down her cheeks. 0.99
00:30:42.420 And then you also have a lot of people talking about Marian apparitions, claiming that Mary appeared
00:30:50.660 to them in some kind of vision or came to them and conveyed a message to them in their dreams.
00:30:59.780 There are a variety of hymns and songs sung to Mary that we can see within the Catholic Church.
00:31:06.840 An emphasis on praying the rosary is extremely central to Catholic practice on a daily basis.
00:31:16.980 Now, we will say the rosary is meditating on different mysteries of the life of Christ,
00:31:22.280 and those different mysteries do have a basis in Scripture.
00:31:26.760 There are biblical citations within the rosary, but you see kind of the mentality of praying
00:31:32.600 the rosary here.
00:31:33.520 There is someone by the name of Rosary Son on Acts who said,
00:31:38.080 Pray the rosary daily.
00:31:39.680 Let Mary guide your soul to Christ.
00:31:42.980 And that is, it seems, the belief among many Catholics that she is basically the Sherpa and
00:31:49.180 the guide of the Christian soul or of the soul to Jesus Christ and to salvation.
00:31:57.000 There are some other arguments that we'll get into about Mary believing that she is the new
00:32:05.760 Eve.
00:32:06.840 And in fact, they argue that when Jesus calls Mary woman in a couple references in the New
00:32:13.560 Testament, that he is actually referring to her as the new Eve.
00:32:19.200 There is also an argument that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant described in Exodus 25, 10 through
00:32:26.660 13, and Hebrews 9, 3 through 4.
00:32:30.160 The Ark of the Covenant is a gold-covered chest symbolizing holiness, purity, consecration to
00:32:35.820 God, containing stone tablets, air and staff, and manna of bread.
00:32:39.760 And they argue that Mary is actually the New Testament mirror of the Old Testament Ark of
00:32:45.560 the Covenant because she is pure and holy and carried the way of salvation in Jesus.
00:32:52.280 And they would cite again Luke 1, when the angel appeared to Mary and that the Holy Spirit will
00:32:57.340 come upon you.
00:32:58.580 And so now she contains this way of salvation in a similar fashion to what the Ark of the
00:33:05.840 Covenant did, Catholics would argue, and then you also have various Old Testament passages
00:33:12.260 describing the Ark of the Covenant that they say looks a lot like Mary in the New Testament.
00:33:18.380 All right, a couple more things on that.
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00:34:25.640 So, putting a bow on the Catholic side of this, and then we'll get into the Protestant 0.90
00:34:36.000 view of Mary.
00:34:38.040 Catholics believe that Mary, as the mother of God and the queen of heaven, hears all prayers
00:34:42.780 directed to her due to her exalted state in heaven, where she united with God's will,
00:34:47.820 participates in his divine plan.
00:34:50.220 As I already said, the Catechism of the Catholic Church calls her the Mediatrix, and so she 0.97
00:34:54.960 is a mediator between us and Jesus.
00:34:58.040 Catholics argue that her intercession is supported by her actions at the wedding at Cana, and
00:35:03.700 we talked about this with Lila.
00:35:06.480 She is part of Jesus' first miracle, where in John 2, on the third day, there was a wedding
00:35:14.400 at Cana in Galilee.
00:35:16.160 The mother of Jesus was there.
00:35:17.440 Jesus was also invited into the wedding with his disciples.
00:35:20.800 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, they have no wine.
00:35:24.840 And Jesus said to her, woman, what does this have to do with me?
00:35:27.320 My hour has not yet come.
00:35:28.500 His mother said to the servants, do whatever he tells you.
00:35:33.200 And actually, on that part of the episode, we had to go back in and clarify a little bit
00:35:38.160 because it was misquoted at first of Jesus saying, do whatever she tells you.
00:35:43.640 But this is Mary saying, do whatever Jesus tells you.
00:35:46.940 But they do cite that passage.
00:35:48.760 Catholics cite Revelation 5-8 and 8-3-4, where the elders and angels in heaven offer prayers
00:35:54.260 to the saints of God.
00:35:57.080 The Catholic Church doesn't claim Mary is omniscient, but holds that God grants her the supernatural
00:36:03.040 ability to be aware of prayers and to carry them to God.
00:36:06.840 Big responsibility, millions and millions of praying Catholics on earth that the Catholic 1.00
00:36:12.040 Church claims she has the capacity and the power to not only hear, understand, but consciously
00:36:16.660 bring to God.
00:36:17.960 Okay, so that is the Catholic view of Mary.
00:36:19.980 I hope that my beloved Catholics out there, that you felt like it was as fair and as accurate
00:36:24.600 and as thorough as possible.
00:36:26.120 We really worked so hard to do that.
00:36:28.280 Let me tell you the Protestant view.
00:36:30.120 And you guys know I'm a Protestant.
00:36:31.500 I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe this and that I don't believe that it's backed
00:36:35.560 by Scripture, because I absolutely do.
00:36:38.240 But I will also try to be as neutral as I can in describing this before I get into what
00:36:43.880 I really think is important for us to remember when it comes to any doctrine, but especially,
00:36:49.580 I think, the doctrine of Mary.
00:36:50.920 So most Protestants hold to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which I know is a big sticking
00:36:58.760 point between Protestants and Catholics.
00:37:01.120 But let me explain something about Sola Scriptura.
00:37:03.540 So it's part of the five solas that were really established and popularized after the Reformation.
00:37:09.080 The Reformation happened in the 1500s with Martin Luther, who was a Catholic himself.
00:37:14.760 He had issues with what was going on in the Catholic Church, what was going on with the papacy.
00:37:18.440 He was not trying to leave the Catholic Church.
00:37:20.920 He was not trying to start Protestantism.
00:37:23.020 He just had problems, 99 problems to be specific.
00:37:27.700 And he posted those before the days of social media, and that spread like wildfire, because
00:37:32.440 a lot of people had problems with some of the practices of the Catholic Church at the time.
00:37:36.800 I don't think anyone intentionally was trying to create new denominations, but people wanted
00:37:42.080 to read the Bible for themselves, and they wanted to understand the gospel.
00:37:44.900 They wanted to understand the way of salvation.
00:37:46.680 And Martin Luther, when he started that spark that lit the fire of the Reformation, one of
00:37:54.960 the best things the Reformation gave us was access to scriptures and understanding that
00:37:59.980 salvation is through faith in Christ alone.
00:38:03.880 So Sola Scriptura is a principle that comes from that time that does not say that we don't
00:38:08.620 care about our churches, that we don't care about authority, that we don't care about tradition.
00:38:14.100 That is not true.
00:38:15.460 We do believe in tradition.
00:38:16.980 We believe in sound theology, and we believe in the authority of the local church, and
00:38:22.300 of course, the authority of Christ.
00:38:24.580 However, we believe that all of these human authorities must be in submission to the God-breathed, 0.87
00:38:31.600 inerrant, infallible authority of scripture.
00:38:34.280 So if human beings say anything is a doctrine or a dogma, we go back to the inerrant, infallible
00:38:40.640 word of God and say, but what does the Bible say?
00:38:44.020 And the Catholic Church actually also holds that the Bible is divinely inspired, that it
00:38:48.820 is inerrant, that it is infallible.
00:38:51.320 Now, there are some books that Catholics include in the Bible that Protestants don't.
00:38:55.020 There's good reason for that, by the way.
00:38:56.940 It's not just Protestants willy-nilly taking out those books of the Bible.
00:39:00.360 So it's important to know that, but that's another discussion for another day.
00:39:04.660 But both Protestants and Catholics say that the Bible is the word of God, inerrant, and
00:39:10.120 infallible.
00:39:11.160 It's simply that Catholics believe that the authority of the Catholic Church is equal to
00:39:16.780 the authority of the Bible.
00:39:18.500 We would say the authority of any human institution is in submission to scripture.
00:39:26.560 So we believe that's the foundation for this.
00:39:29.280 So when we are trying to understand who Mary is, we are looking at scripture, and there
00:39:35.320 are some things that we see, and there are some things that we don't see.
00:39:39.680 So Grace to You, which is John MacArthur's ministry, says this,
00:39:44.580 While acknowledging that Mary was the most extraordinary of women, it is appropriate to inject a word
00:39:50.720 of caution against the common tendency to elevate her too much.
00:39:54.580 She was, after all, a woman, John MacArthur explains, not a demigoddess or a quasi-deiformed
00:40:01.320 creature who somehow transcended the rest of her race.
00:40:05.420 Catholic apologist Paul Maxey admits that the Marian dogmas of immaculate conception, perpetual
00:40:11.060 virginity, and assumption are not explicitly taught in the Bible.
00:40:15.400 But Catholics lean on tradition and on storytelling there to kind of come up with these dogmas. 0.79
00:40:21.660 So it is not really argued by Catholics that this is explicitly seen in scripture,
00:40:27.220 which is, of course, one of Protestants' big problems with it.
00:40:31.140 Protestants agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus.
00:40:34.880 So let's go through these dogmas.
00:40:36.660 Mother of God, Theotokos.
00:40:38.820 Protestants agree that Mary is the mother of Jesus.
00:40:41.320 We agree that Jesus is fully God and fully human.
00:40:44.660 And thus, we might affirm the title Theotokos, but we would argue that at the Council of Ephesus,
00:40:52.500 when the transfer from Theotokos to mother of God took place, that something else took place
00:41:00.320 in that translation and transfer, that has caused a lot of confusion.
00:41:05.780 And it lies in an implication that Mary is being ascribed some level of divinity.
00:41:15.620 Because what we must be careful of is to not argue that God has a source, because that would
00:41:21.320 be heresy.
00:41:22.020 I think even the Catholic Church would agree with that, that God was created or that he
00:41:26.580 was initiated by Mary, that she was a part of God's beginning.
00:41:32.560 Because we know that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:41:36.340 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:41:40.100 Hebrews 13.8, that he is the uncreated one, that he doesn't have a beginning. 0.55
00:41:47.000 So while it is true that she is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God, we just want to make 0.56
00:41:52.580 sure that we are drawing a distinction there that Mary is not God's source, which I hope
00:41:58.240 my Catholic friends would agree with.
00:42:00.080 So that's more of just ensuring that we are really clear on that point.
00:42:06.300 Second dogma, immaculate conception.
00:42:08.540 This idea that Mary was born without any original sin.
00:42:13.340 We reject that because we do not see any support for that whatsoever in Scripture.
00:42:19.660 For example, this argument that says in Luke 1, when the angel hailed Mary as full of grace.
00:42:25.680 Yes, Jesus was also described as full of grace and truth, but also Stephen, who was a martyr,
00:42:33.840 who shared the gospel with unbelieving people in the book of Acts, he was also described as
00:42:40.140 full of grace, full of grace and power.
00:42:44.440 And so I don't think that Catholic doctrine teaches that Stephen also was without original sin.
00:42:51.400 However, if we are going to argue that anyone described as full of grace is without original
00:42:58.780 sin, then we would have to argue again that I think that Stephen is too.
00:43:04.180 But of course, he's not.
00:43:05.440 We read in Romans 3, 23, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
00:43:12.240 In Luke 1, 47, Mary even talks about needing a Savior herself.
00:43:20.380 Luke 1, 47 says,
00:43:21.980 And my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior.
00:43:26.160 We would argue that the immaculate conception that Mary doesn't have original sin lacks any
00:43:31.880 support in the early church, that it was denied by several church fathers, and that we see
00:43:38.600 no evidence for that in Scripture, which we agree as Catholics and Protestants, is an authority,
00:43:46.500 an inerrant, infallible authority.
00:43:50.480 This next idea of perpetual virginity, that—and this, of course, is what sparked this whole
00:43:56.740 debate this week—that Mary had made this vow of virginity and that she never had sex with
00:44:04.480 Joseph—I actually found a lot of the posts about this at the time from Catholics defending
00:44:11.200 this idea of perpetual virginity very disturbing because I found them very crass talking about
00:44:16.800 Joseph, that Joseph wouldn't want—I can't even say what some of the people said, that
00:44:21.980 Joseph wouldn't want to, you know, insert sexual act, you know, fill in the blank there
00:44:28.320 with Mary after her womb and after her birth canal had birthed Jesus, is basically what
00:44:34.940 he was saying.
00:44:35.720 And that seems to forget the fact that sex in marriage is holy, that it is beautiful,
00:44:41.520 that it is one of the first commands that God gives Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.
00:44:46.960 It's not some dirty thing.
00:44:48.880 Joseph wouldn't have been dirtying Mary or making her unclean by having sex with his wife.
00:44:54.800 The two shall become one flesh.
00:44:56.920 This mystery is profound, but I am telling you that it refers to Christ and the church.
00:45:02.340 That's Ephesians 5.
00:45:03.580 Wow, that union of a man and a woman is actually a reflection of an eternal reality, the redemptive 1.00
00:45:09.840 story of the marriage between Christ and his bride, the church.
00:45:13.420 And so that mentality that she was so pure that she couldn't have been dirtied by her own
00:45:18.420 husband through sex is just wrong. 0.97
00:45:20.720 Like it doesn't even match the Catholic mentality of what marriage and church is.
00:45:26.180 But that aside, we also simply do not see support for that idea.
00:45:31.840 We see in Matthew 1.25, but Joseph knew her not, so knew in the biblical sense, didn't have
00:45:38.820 sex with her until she had given birth to a son and he called his name Jesus. 0.71
00:45:45.280 According to theologian C.S.
00:45:47.040 Keener, the natural reading of heos suggests, so that word until, that Greek word for until,
00:45:53.380 suggests a change after the sated time.
00:45:56.460 And this is supported by references to Jesus's siblings.
00:46:02.740 And there are several references to Jesus's siblings.
00:46:05.740 For example, John 2.12.
00:46:07.620 After this, Jesus went down to Capernaum with his mother and his brothers and his disciples,
00:46:13.120 and they stayed there for a few days.
00:46:16.960 And the argument is over this word adelphoi, meaning from the same womb.
00:46:22.820 Some people are arguing, I would say Catholics are arguing, that this Greek word could actually
00:46:28.000 mean cousins.
00:46:29.360 But actually, according to Thayer's Greek lexicon, it literally means from the same womb.
00:46:35.300 Also, Luke 2.7 describes Jesus as Mary's firstborn, prototokos, implying that she had other children
00:46:44.340 later.
00:46:45.020 If Jesus were her only child, the term only begotten, monogenes, hopefully I'm saying all 1.00
00:46:51.860 these Greek words correctly, would likely have been used.
00:46:57.120 So he's referred to as the firstborn throughout the Gospels.
00:47:00.840 He is also referred to as someone with siblings, and Mary is referred to as a mother who has
00:47:07.160 multiple children.
00:47:08.700 In Acts 1.14 and John 7.5, they distinguish Jesus's brothers from the apostles.
00:47:15.160 And note their initial disbelief in him, supporting the idea that they were close family members,
00:47:20.880 actual brothers, not just relatives or associates.
00:47:25.100 We see that in Acts 1.13-14.
00:47:29.940 In John 7.5, we read,
00:47:31.620 For not even his brothers, not just his friends, not just his disciples, not even his brothers
00:47:37.620 believed in him.
00:47:40.100 Matthew 13.55-56 describes Jesus as the carpenter's son, with Mary as his mother, and his brothers
00:47:47.420 James and Joseph and Simon and Judas, and all of his sisters, presenting them as a family
00:47:53.040 unit, which makes interpreting brothers and sisters as cousins or relatives less likely.
00:47:58.480 And also, we don't have any biblical or historical evidence for the idea that Joseph was his stepfather,
00:48:06.320 that he was married before and that he had previous children.
00:48:11.620 This idea that Mary took a vow of virginity, that's also not supported by Scripture because
00:48:18.540 Mary said, how will this be since I am a virgin while she was betrothed to Joseph, as we read
00:48:24.920 in the Gospel of Luke and the other Gospels as well.
00:48:28.700 So that would have been before their marriage, before they had consummated their marriage.
00:48:33.060 So she still would have been a virgin, but engaged to be married to Joseph.
00:48:36.780 And so I would say it is an assumption that comes from other Catholic assumptions about
00:48:43.440 Mary to say that she was immaculately conceived herself, that she was without original sin,
00:48:49.400 and that also she was a perpetual virgin.
00:48:52.600 And I simply don't think it is necessary to believe those things about Mary to respect her
00:48:59.200 or honor her, or look at her prayer in the book of Luke and say, wow, that was beautiful.
00:49:07.380 She is honorable.
00:49:08.780 She is respectable.
00:49:10.240 And we can look to her as some kind of example of humility.
00:49:14.040 I don't think these dogmas are necessary to be able to say that, and we should be able
00:49:18.620 to say those things.
00:49:20.380 All right, let me get to the last sponsor, and then we will close out on this last dogma,
00:49:25.860 veneration.
00:49:26.400 And then what I think is really important to know in all of this.
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00:50:33.980 This last dogma, the assumption of Mary, we definitely don't see biblical evidence for.
00:50:45.160 Even Trent Horn of Catholic Answers says that Revelation 12 that we mentioned earlier, that
00:50:51.420 we read earlier, is a symbolic text and that this is not actually sufficient to prove that
00:50:58.160 Mary was assumed into heaven.
00:50:59.380 That is what Catholic Answers says.
00:51:01.720 But Catholics obviously believe that this helps their case, that even though this is symbolic 0.72
00:51:06.520 and poetic language and revelation, that this could support the idea of her being bodily assumed.
00:51:12.520 I would argue as a Protestant that that is a stretch.
00:51:15.520 And again, just completely unnecessary for the rightful honoring of Mary.
00:51:20.800 There is no historical evidence whatsoever that Mary is assumed into heaven.
00:51:26.320 And I would say it's dangerous territory because you are ascribing to her God-like characteristics
00:51:34.280 that do not exist in Scripture.
00:51:38.600 And actually, I would argue, as I'll argue in a little bit, inhibit us from true and unadulterated
00:51:44.980 worship of Jesus.
00:51:47.380 Now, Catholics argue, as I said, that they don't worship Mary and that they don't offer her undue
00:51:54.400 reference, but that they see her as a vehicle to God.
00:51:59.400 But I think what's important here is that Catholics do call her the mediatrics and do believe that 0.99
00:52:06.180 she is carrying prayers to God, that she is a mediator.
00:52:10.480 But I think it's important here to look at a few passages.
00:52:16.620 Number one, the Bible does not direct Christians to pray to anyone other than God.
00:52:21.380 We do not see this in the Gospels.
00:52:25.200 We do not see this in the Epistles.
00:52:28.220 Jesus actually corrected those who gave Mary undue reference because she was Jesus's mother.
00:52:35.160 In Luke 11, 27 through 28, as he said these things, Jesus, a woman in the crowd raised her
00:52:40.860 voice and said to him, blessed is the womb who bore you and the breast at which you nursed.
00:52:45.780 But he said, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it.
00:52:53.360 Jesus had a few opportunities, spoken Luke 11, the wedding at Cana, to give special reverence
00:53:02.140 and special honor to Mary.
00:53:04.300 And he does not.
00:53:06.040 He chooses not to.
00:53:07.620 And actually, he takes this as a lesson.
00:53:11.020 This is a line that I could see a lot of Catholics repeating. 0.99
00:53:13.800 Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breast at which you nursed.
00:53:17.020 And Jesus doesn't say yes and amen.
00:53:19.420 Jesus doesn't say, yes, this is the prayer that you should pray.
00:53:22.620 Jesus says, actually, blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it.
00:53:30.320 That seems to me that he is saying that the blessing, the specialness, the sacredness is for
00:53:38.580 all, Mary and everyone else who hears the word of the Lord and keeps it.
00:53:44.300 We also read that clearly in Hebrews 14, 16, that we can approach the throne of God ourselves.
00:53:53.860 Hebrews 4, 16, let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace that we may receive
00:54:00.460 mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
00:54:03.980 And this is such an important point that I want you to know is that if you are a Christian,
00:54:09.320 if you have, according to Ephesians 2, been saved by grace through faith, you have full
00:54:16.060 access in confidence to go before the throne of God because you have been entirely made clean.
00:54:24.200 Yes, even if you sinned this morning, even if you haven't gone to confession yet, even if
00:54:29.520 you haven't been confirmed in the Catholic church, even if you have not been baptized, if you have
00:54:34.700 been saved by grace through faith in Christ, it is so important for you to know that this is the
00:54:39.560 gospel that you can approach God with confidence, not with shame, but with confidence because you
00:54:46.140 have been covered fully once and for all by the blood of Christ.
00:54:50.940 That's what it means to be justified, that Jesus is your advocate.
00:54:55.360 He is your one advocate and he is the only sufficient one because he is the only one without sin and he
00:55:01.320 died to save you and he is God himself.
00:55:03.540 And he is the one Christian who stands before you, looks to God and says, do not give them the 0.99
00:55:09.220 wrath they deserve.
00:55:10.720 Give them the grace that they need because of me, because of the perfection that I have given them.
00:55:17.040 I've taken away their sins.
00:55:18.660 I have given them these clean robes of righteousness.
00:55:21.080 That is Jesus's job and Jesus's job alone.
00:55:25.660 First Timothy 2, 5 says, for there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men.
00:55:32.760 One.
00:55:34.400 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
00:55:40.560 Hebrews 7, 25 says, consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God
00:55:45.860 through him, through Christ, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
00:55:52.920 God is our intercessor.
00:55:54.580 The Holy Spirit is the one who helps us in our weakness.
00:55:58.240 Romans 8, 26 through 27.
00:55:59.940 Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
00:56:02.140 For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with
00:56:06.560 groanings too deep for words.
00:56:08.160 And he who searches hearts, that's the Holy Spirit, knows what is the mind of the Spirit.
00:56:13.220 Because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
00:56:18.600 So really, we see God, Jesus, the Spirit, all right there working in our hearts and minds
00:56:24.840 and no mention of Mary, no mention of anyone in heaven.
00:56:29.640 2 Corinthians 1, 11, you also must help us by prayer so that many will give thanks on our behalf
00:56:34.640 for the blessing granted to us through the prayers of many.
00:56:38.720 So while we ask our fellow Christians for prayers, there is no indication, I would argue
00:56:44.260 that the Revelation passage doesn't support this at all, that we should be praying to
00:56:48.560 saints or that we should be praying to Mary, that people in heaven hear our prayers, have
00:56:53.360 the capacity to understand multiple languages and the supernatural power to carry them to
00:56:58.240 Jesus.
00:56:58.740 And I would say not only do we not read that, but it is unnecessary because your mediator is
00:57:03.980 Christ.
00:57:05.320 Your mediator is Christ.
00:57:07.020 He is the one that carries the prayers for you.
00:57:12.320 I don't believe that we see evidence of Mary as the new Eve.
00:57:16.140 I don't believe that we see evidence of Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant.
00:57:22.480 I don't see evidence that when Jesus calls Mary a woman, that he is paying her special honor,
00:57:28.700 that he is secretly indicating that she is the new Eve.
00:57:32.400 I think Mary is extremely special.
00:57:34.260 She has an extremely special role.
00:57:37.100 I mean, what an incredible honor.
00:57:39.040 I think we should honor her.
00:57:40.480 I think we should look to her example.
00:57:42.720 But I do not think that we should elevate her to a place where we do not see her elevated
00:57:47.440 by Jesus himself.
00:57:49.140 We don't see her elevated by the apostles.
00:57:52.520 We don't see her elevated by the writers of the epistles, even by the gospel writers.
00:57:57.980 I mean, think about this.
00:58:00.540 If Mary was this central to the Christian faith, if it is true that Mary has always been honored
00:58:06.120 in this way from the very beginning of Christianity, then we would see it somewhere in the New Testament.
00:58:13.860 We would see it somewhere in the epistles.
00:58:16.780 We would see some kind of veneration there, some kind of indication.
00:58:23.740 And I could argue the same thing for the authority of Peter as being the pope.
00:58:29.260 That's something else we never see in the New Testament, nor do we see the level of veneration
00:58:35.380 of Mary, this idea that she can intercede for us, and of just a reminder that there is a name
00:58:42.880 for praying to the dead.
00:58:44.900 And I'm not talking about just spiritually dead, because of course we know that Christians are 1.00
00:58:49.820 spiritually alive in heaven, but praying through those or to those who are not actually here
00:58:57.900 on earth, and it is necromancy, and it is not something that Christians should engage in. 0.55
00:59:03.440 And that's how strongly I feel about this.
00:59:05.760 And I understand that there are going to be a lot of Catholic listeners and friends
00:59:09.020 who are offended by that, but I do want to explain the Protestant belief on that.
00:59:13.560 And my belief is that this gets in the way of seeing Christ as your fully sufficient Savior and mediator.
00:59:25.120 R.C. Sproul, he was a Protestant theologian.
00:59:28.880 He said,
00:59:29.160 Mary is not divine.
00:59:30.200 She's a sinner saved by grace just as we are.
00:59:32.400 But what a gracious, gracious sinner she was.
00:59:34.780 I agree with that.
00:59:36.180 I read in this text a willingness to do the will of the Lord.
00:59:39.200 That's what we can learn from Mary, how to be in subjection to God as she was. 0.78
00:59:46.620 And I agree with that.
00:59:48.800 I think that we should look to her humility and look to her subjection and see it and submission
00:59:54.900 to God and see it as a great example of what a godly woman looks like, but I don't believe 1.00
01:00:02.180 that we should be praying to her.
01:00:03.700 I don't believe that we should believe these dogmas that are not supported by Scripture.
01:00:08.360 And again, I think it gets in the way of the unadulterated worship of Jesus and the beauty
01:00:15.260 of the gospel, which gives you full access to God's throne through Christ right now.
01:00:22.560 All right.
01:00:23.460 That's all we've got time for today.
01:00:25.440 We will be back here on Friday.
01:00:45.260 We will be back here on Friday.