Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1231 ｜ Gay ‘Marriage’ Might Be Overturned

00:00:00.000 The Supreme Court has been asked to overturn Obergefell, the Supreme Court case that legalized

00:00:08.360 so-called same-sex marriage, and it's looking like it is actually potentially a possibility.

00:00:15.180 So we will get into all of that today. Plus, look at a disturbing trend of AI girlfriends

00:00:22.320 and boyfriends. What the heck is going on? We've got all of this and more on today's episode of

00:00:27.320 Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use

00:00:31.260 code Allie at checkout. That's goodranchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:43.160 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. It is great to

00:00:48.780 be back with you delivering a monologue. I haven't been able to do a news monologue in a little while.

00:00:54.200 You had my dad last week, and you guys always love when he substitutes. He's so good at breaking

00:01:01.000 everything down. And it was really helpful for me. We had a lot going on last week as a family,

00:01:05.880 but also I got hit with some kind of sickness. At first, I thought it was the flu. Now I'm looking

00:01:11.160 back and I think it was COVID. I didn't take a, well, I actually did try to take a COVID test,

00:01:16.320 but it was so old that it didn't work. And I'm not really one to go out and try to get one because

00:01:21.420 it doesn't matter. Whatever it was, it lasted two days exactly. I got it. The baby got it. My

00:01:28.020 husband got it. Our older two kids did not get it. So if you have some kind of cold that just

00:01:34.420 completely knocks you out for 48 hours, and then suddenly you are miraculously 100% better again

00:01:41.360 after that, then you had what we had. No idea where we got it. This was before, like, I guess maybe from

00:01:48.340 church. That's really the only place that we've gone this summer and like random travel. So I don't

00:01:54.620 know, but I am back. Very grateful to my dad. A wonderful conversation with Arch Kennedy on Friday.

00:02:00.300 If you have not listened to that and you want to be encouraged and reminded of the power of the

00:02:03.940 redemption of Christ, go back and listen to that conversation. And actually what we're talking about

00:02:09.320 at the top of this is kind of in relation to Arch and his testimony, and that is about so-called

00:02:17.380 gay marriage and the Obergefell decision. Now, some of you were not plugged into politics in 2015 when

00:02:25.140 Obergefell was decided by the Supreme Court, saying that gay people have a constitutional right to marry

00:02:30.740 in the same way that heterosexual people do. So we're going to break down what it is, and we are going

00:02:35.860 to ask the scandalous question, even on the right, is it possible that Obergefell gets overturned in the

00:02:43.720 next few years? What would have to happen for that to occur? Is there a high probability of that? And

00:02:50.840 what is going on right now that is causing so many people to talk about that? So we are going to get

00:02:58.380 into all of that because my good friend Katie Faust, who is going to be speaking, delivering a very

00:03:04.700 powerful speech at Share the Arrows on October 11th, she has been crusading for the sanctity of marriage

00:03:14.540 between a man and a woman and the right of children to a mother and a father for a very long time. And so

00:03:19.720 we are going to talk about her mission and what she's been doing on that front. But first we have to

00:03:26.340 back up and give us a little context. Why are people saying right now that this could actually

00:03:33.480 really happen and what would it look like? So I recently saw a post on X that said, okay,

00:03:39.100 the Supreme Court has officially been asked to take another look at Obergefell. That's kind of true,

00:03:47.300 but that doesn't necessarily indicate some kind of decision is imminent. But we are in the beginning

00:03:53.540 stages of people really unabashedly pushing for that. So Obergefell v. Hodges is the 2015 Supreme

00:04:02.200 Court decision that legalized same-sex marriage. And we'll say quote unquote, and I'll explain why in

00:04:09.440 just a second, a nationwide in a 5-4 ruling, so very narrow decision, asserting that the 14th

00:04:16.100 Amendment's due process and equal protection clauses grant same-sex couples the right to marry.

00:04:22.700 These clauses, if you actually read the 14th Amendment, prohibit states from depriving any person

00:04:27.900 of life, liberty, or property without due process of law and require states to provide equal protection

00:04:33.960 under the law to all persons. Now, the 14th Amendment is not coincidentally what the Supreme

00:04:40.540 Court also used back in 1973 to decide Roe v. Wade. They said that somewhere in the penumbras of the

00:04:51.140 14th Amendment, there is this secret and hidden implied right to be able to kill your child. And

00:04:58.520 it's pretty similar to the argument that's made here. We don't actually see a right for two men to get

00:05:05.800 married in the 14th Amendment, but that is how the Supreme Court decided this just 10 years ago.

00:05:15.240 Think about how much has changed in just 10 years since the Supreme Court made this decision. But now

00:05:23.220 we've got a woman by the name of Kim Davis. You might, if you were paying attention to the news at the

00:05:29.100 time, you might remember her. She is a former Kentucky County clerk, and she refused after the

00:05:35.660 Obergefell decision to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. As you can imagine, this made

00:05:47.180 some people mad. There was a gay couple in 2015 by the name of David Moore and David Ermold, and there

00:05:53.220 should be an entire academic paper on how many gay couples share the same first name. I'm sorry. I know

00:06:01.700 too many instances of that. I think that there's probably some psychoanalysis that could be done

00:06:08.880 on that. As a result, she was actually jailed. Kim Davis was jailed for five days and fined $100,000

00:06:17.320 for emotional damages to these men because she, in accordance with her Christian faith, refused to

00:06:25.140 sanctify something or sanction something that went against her faith, her sincerely held beliefs.

00:06:33.480 She was also ordered to pay $260,000 in legal fees to the gay couple. So watch how quickly that

00:06:41.320 happened. 2015, Obergefell is decided by the Supreme Court. That same year, a woman is placed in jail,

00:06:48.560 charged hundreds of thousands of dollars because she said, no, I'm not going to go along with it. In the

00:06:54.640 state of Kentucky. Okay, so it should have been obvious then that this wasn't just about same-sex

00:07:00.280 couples who wanted, you know, hospital visitation rights. Similar thing was happening to Jack Phillips

00:07:07.460 in the state of Colorado, but that story is, of course, even crazier. He just refused to bake a cake

00:07:14.200 for the wedding of a couple who was, you know, going through a marriage ceremony at the time. They could

00:07:20.480 have found another baker. They decided to try to ruin Jack Phillips's life and sue him. And the state

00:07:26.540 of Colorado, of course, obliged and said, you know, yeah, he's got no right. This is discrimination.

00:07:32.380 Eventually, after years and years and years of litigation and harassment by LGBTQ activists,

00:07:38.220 his case made it to the Supreme Court. And in another narrow ruling, they said, yeah, he was treated

00:07:44.240 with animus because of his Christian faith in the state of Colorado. So it should have been obvious at the

00:07:49.020 time that this was going to be used, that the so-called gay marriage issue was going to be used

00:07:55.460 as a mallet against Christians. As a way to say, yeah, sure, Christian, if you want to believe that,

00:08:01.860 you can. If you want to preach that within the walls of your church, then okay, maybe. If you want to pray

00:08:07.400 those prayers within the confines of your home, okay. But if you dare bring those beliefs into the

00:08:14.440 public square, we will ruin you. And now, after years of this, Kim Davis is actually challenging

00:08:23.620 these fees. She claims her First Amendment right to religious freedom shields her from liability. And

00:08:30.100 she is arguing along with her lawyers, of course, so she's taking up this case, appealing it to the

00:08:34.940 Supreme Court, or she's trying to, argues that Obergefell was wrongly decided. And she is urging the

00:08:40.620 Supreme Court to reverse it. And now, with a 6-3 conservative majority, as we'll get into in just a

00:08:46.940 second, some conservatives, like Katie Faust, like many of us on the natural marriage side, hope the

00:08:55.020 court will overturn Obergefell. But certain justices, even conservative, you know, justices that we consider

00:09:02.360 conservative, who are appointed by Donald Trump, may hesitate to take on a direct challenge. And there are

00:09:07.820 some reasons for that. So let's be reasonable and balanced as we go through this issue. Let me go

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00:12:48.940 code Allie. So Kim Davis, she is deciding that now is her time. Earlier this year, however,

00:13:00.680 lower courts rejected her claims that her First Amendment right protects her from liability for

00:13:06.800 refusing to issue a marriage license to the same-sex couple. A federal appeals court stated in

00:13:11.520 March that the First Amendment does not protect her actions as a state official. So because this was

00:13:16.840 part of her job, because the law said what it said, whether you agree with Obergefell or not,

00:13:22.480 she was obligated to fulfill her job. That's what this particular court is arguing. And of course,

00:13:29.580 her lawyers would say, look, you don't check your First Amendment rights. You don't check your

00:13:33.340 right to religious expression when you walk into your profession. Davis's filing, however, says,

00:13:42.140 quote, Obergefell was wrong when it was decided, and it is wrong today because it was grounded

00:13:46.540 entirely on the legal fiction of substantive due process, implying, and again, if you listen to our

00:13:52.960 Roe v. Wade or Doe v. Bolton or our Dobbs episodes, you'll remember us talking about this

00:14:00.560 error of substantive due process. And Clarence Thomas, in his argument in favor of the decision

00:14:09.840 of Dobbs, actually talks about this whole problem of substantive due process. So again, we see a lot

00:14:16.040 of similarities between how Obergefell was decided and Roe v. Wade was decided. So her argument implies

00:14:22.540 that the grounds for the ruling of the case are not constitutional, and they're essentially made up.

00:14:28.460 So according to the Constitution Center, substantive due process is protection under the 14th Amendment

00:14:33.700 for rights that aren't explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, such as privacy, marriage,

00:14:38.240 and bodily integrity. So it is entirely made up and implied, pulled out from some hidden place in

00:14:45.140 the 14th Amendment. Davis previously appealed to the Supreme Court in 2019 to dismiss the damages suit,

00:14:51.280 but the court declined. So even our conservative justices, Justice Thomas, Justice Alito,

00:14:56.400 noted that the case at the time did not fully address Obergefell's scope. So kind of saying,

00:15:02.460 okay, you've got your issue, but that goes, you know, you're not really addressing something that

00:15:07.940 we as the Supreme Court are going to address. But Kim Davis's attorney, Matt Staver, believes that

00:15:14.360 there is, quote, a good chance the Supreme Court will take up the case because three of the four

00:15:19.260 justices who dissented in Obergefell are still on the court. And then, of course, and that's Thomas,

00:15:25.460 Roberts, and Samuel Alito. And now, of course, we've got new picks on the court like Amy Coney Barrett,

00:15:32.820 and we've also got Gorsuch, and we've also got Kavanaugh. And so they're saying the chance is much

00:15:40.980 better than it was in previous years. Now, according to Newsweek, they say the justices,

00:15:47.940 Thomas and Alito, expressed interest in revisiting Obergefell in a statement accompanying the Supreme

00:15:52.700 Court's decision not to hear Kim Davis's appeal in 2020. In this statement, authored by Thomas and

00:15:59.660 Alito, they criticized Obergefell for threatening religious liberty, stating that it, quote,

00:16:04.220 enables courts and governments to brand religious adherents who believe that marriage is between

00:16:08.780 one man and one woman as bigots and has ruinous consequences for religious liberty. And this is

00:16:14.700 basically what Chief Justice John Roberts argued in 2015 in his dissent against Obergefell. So when it

00:16:24.640 comes to how much has changed in the past 10 years since Obergefell was decided, and just how right

00:16:31.380 Roberts was, and Thomas was, and Alito was, and Scalia was at the time when they said, okay, this is going to

00:16:39.140 change a lot. This is going to change a lot for Christians who are basically going to be barred from

00:16:44.320 exercising their faith in the public square if they publicly align with what the Bible has to say

00:16:51.720 about marriage. And there are a lot of other issues. We've talked about Alan Keyes. I wrote about this in

00:16:57.800 my book, Toxic Empathy. I dedicate an entire chapter to why love is love is a lie, and why Obergefell was

00:17:04.640 damaging, why it wasn't constitutionally sound. It doesn't even logically or politically make sense.

00:17:09.980 And we don't even have time to get into all of that. But Alan Keyes, when he was running for the

00:17:15.440 Senate in Illinois against Barack Obama all the way back in, I believe it was in 2004, he argues against

00:17:23.460 the establishment of so-called gay marriage by saying the state has no interest in sanctioning marriage

00:17:30.460 that cannot, in principle, in principle procreate. And so a man and a woman, in principle, even if

00:17:38.700 they struggle circumstantially, like with infertility, in principle, they can create children that are

00:17:46.400 raising future citizens. The state has an interest in sanctioning and protecting that in a way that it

00:17:52.140 does not when it comes to the unity of two men or two women in matrimony. So since then, in the past

00:18:02.280 10 to 20 years, as people understood that and grappled with that, we have gone from 35 states in 2015

00:18:11.440 having statutory or constitutional bans on gay marriage, and there were only states with laws

00:18:18.420 explicitly allowing it. And of course, after Obergefell happened, those bans on so-called gay

00:18:28.520 marriage ended. And of course, it is legal everywhere for two men or two women to get a marriage license

00:18:36.400 from the state and to be legally married. Now, just to pause, why do I say so-called gay marriage or

00:18:42.300 quote-unquote gay marriage? You have probably heard me say that or read that in my chapter of toxic

00:18:49.640 empathy on this subject, if you've been listening to this or reading for a while, and that is because

00:18:55.660 God defines marriage. God defines it. It is pre-America. It is pre-law. It is pre-civilization.

00:19:04.400 And because God defined marriage and because his power transcends any state power,

00:19:09.860 it is not within the state's purview or the state's authority to redefine something that it did not

00:19:16.940 originally define. And so I understand why someone from a secular perspective would disagree with that

00:19:23.560 because naturally you have to believe that the state is the highest power. But for those of us who,

00:19:29.480 like the founders, know that there is a power that transcends all government power, we do not have

00:19:35.840 to submit to the definitions of anything that the government tells us. When the government through

00:19:42.180 Bostock tried to redefine what it means to be a woman and to say that gender identity was just as

00:19:49.440 valid and fixed as sex, we have every right and responsibility as believers in both science

00:19:57.440 and believers in God to say no. Like you can tell me that two plus two equals five. I don't have to

00:20:06.080 believe it. Like you remember the end of 1984, the tragic end of 1984 when he finally broke down

00:20:12.660 and Winston said and repeated and believed that two plus two equals five. And then of course,

00:20:19.540 big brother can have your way with you at that point. We have every right and responsibility to not

00:20:24.720 lie. And remember, as I've always said, a man can become a woman is no crazier than a husband can

00:20:34.280 become a wife. It's the same math. Trans women are women is the same ridiculous notion as love is love.

00:20:43.200 It is all circular. If you don't define your terms, then these things can mean anything and therefore

00:20:48.960 it means nothing. A husband can't become a wife, a wife can't become a husband, a mom cannot become a

00:20:56.580 dad, and a dad cannot become a mom, and children should have a right to both. And now it seems that

00:21:05.280 people are becoming bold enough to say that. So there are at least nine states in 2025 that have

00:21:11.220 introduced legislation to undermine the Obergefell ruling. Republican lawmakers in Idaho, Michigan,

00:21:16.740 Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota have introduced formal resolutions calling on the

00:21:22.200 reversal of Obergefell. At least four additional states introduced bills creating covenant marriage,

00:21:27.840 creating a separate category of marriage that would only be for one man and one woman. In Idaho,

00:21:34.120 this is apparently trying to challenge Obergefell. So you're probably going to see more and more

00:21:40.720 state lawmakers, Republican state lawmakers say, no, this was wrongly decided.

00:21:46.240 Children have a right to a mother and a father. And that's not policing someone's private behavior.

00:21:54.420 It is not forcing everyone to be a Christian, but it is saying that this very special procreative

00:22:00.620 union is unique and the state has an interest in protecting it. We'll get into a little bit more of

00:22:10.060 this kind of groundswell of movement against Obergefell in just a second. Let me go ahead and pause and tell

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00:23:15.760 slash Allie code Allie. The Southern Baptist Convention is the biggest evangelical denomination

00:23:26.740 in the country. They voted in June 2025 at their convention to prioritize overturning

00:23:33.600 Obergefell and related laws that defy God's design for marriage and family. We have an obligation

00:23:43.460 to do that. I understand people say, well, what if I don't believe your religion? You're just trying

00:23:48.540 to push a theocracy. Are you saying that we lived in a theocracy until 2015? No, of course we didn't

00:23:56.800 live in a theocracy. We're not forcing anyone to worship God or go to church or pray or even to

00:24:04.980 abide by all of the sexual ethics that we have. But we are saying when it comes to this foundational,

00:24:13.140 civilizational keystone of marriage that, yeah, we should protect it and that we shouldn't redefine

00:24:20.940 it. And a huge part of this is because of what it does to children. It intentionally robs children

00:24:27.820 of their right to a mother or a father intentionally. Unlike adoption, which seeks to redeem a broken

00:24:35.380 situation, the creation of children with the intention of taking them away from their mother

00:24:41.400 or father creates the broken situation, especially when you introduce the things that we've talked about

00:24:46.780 so much, surrogacy, IVF, sperm and egg donation. You know, I was just, one of my children is dealing

00:24:57.080 with eczema. And so we just, you know, submitted a test to try to figure out, you know, what is causing

00:25:04.880 this? Is there a diet change that we can do? Is there some kind of like holistic solution that we

00:25:11.060 have? And I'm sure a lot of you have great suggestions out there, but we wanted to test her gut to see what

00:25:16.380 really going on. And I had this questionnaire, very long questionnaire that I had to answer. And it

00:25:24.700 was all about my history as her mom. And then also her history starting at conception. Like, did I take

00:25:32.500 antibiotics when I was pregnant or when I was breastfeeding? What was my pregnancy like? What

00:25:38.800 were, you know, all the things I was putting in my body before, during and after pregnancy? So many

00:25:44.120 different things that have an effect on her microbiome that I didn't even realize. And I

00:25:49.740 was so thankful just to be able to answer those questions. But when you purposely take your child

00:25:55.960 away from their father via sperm donor or their mother via egg donor, from the, their, the woman who

00:26:03.140 gestated them via surrogacy, you are robbing them of so much that is needed, not just emotionally and

00:26:10.280 mentally and spiritually, but also physically health wise. And again, different than adoption where

00:26:17.260 you're making the best of a difficult situation. When it comes to the creation of children between

00:26:23.580 two men or two women, you are purposely robbing them of so much to fulfill adult desires. And we should

00:26:31.140 never be placing children's wellbeing on the altar of adult desires that is disordered. And it makes sense

00:26:39.180 because Romans one, when it talks about homosexuality, it talks about it as a disordered desire. And what

00:26:44.740 we know about disorder is that it breeds more disorder. And Katie Faust has been talking about

00:26:51.220 this for a very long time. She started the organization, Them Before Us. She has actively

00:26:56.260 advocated for overturning Obergefell. And look, Katie is an amazing person. She is a mom, both a biological mom

00:27:05.620 and adoptive mom. And she also is a child of divorce and her mom has been in a very long-term relationship

00:27:14.040 with another woman. And Katie loves her parents, loves her mom, even loves her mom's partner. She has

00:27:22.660 seen so many different sides of this. And so when she speaks, she is speaking from experience that

00:27:29.420 children deserve, ideally their own biological married mother and father. But if not that,

00:27:36.800 then a mother and father in a stable married home. That is where children thrive. And this should be

00:27:43.860 central to the conversation about redefining marriage. Who is being affected by that? And this is

00:27:52.000 all social movements are like this. All progressive social changes, I should say.

00:28:00.640 Follow this pattern. Children are the first to be sacrificed because children don't have political

00:28:08.240 capital. They don't have physical power. They can't defend themselves, especially the embryos that we are

00:28:13.900 creating in a lab. They have absolutely zero say over any of this. And so what we have said many times is

00:28:19.960 that children are always the unconsenting subjects of progressive social experiments. And they were

00:28:26.740 completely disregarded when we decided to imagine up some kind of constitutional right to redefine marriage

00:28:35.180 from what it not traditionally is, but naturally is. Whenever technology like surrogacy or sperm donation

00:28:44.040 or egg donation, this is another saying we say a lot. Whenever technology takes us from what is

00:28:49.520 natural to what is possible, we as people, we as Christians have the primary responsibility

00:28:58.040 to ask ourselves, but is this moral? Is this ethical? Is this biblical? When technology takes us from what

00:29:06.660 is natural to what is possible, we have to ask, is this moral? Is this ethical? Is this biblical? And when

00:29:12.340 it comes to the manipulation of reproductive technology, the answer is no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And this all

00:29:21.700 started from us redefining something that we had no authority to mess with. And yet, when we did, a lot

00:29:29.860 changed because back in, if you go all the way back, we're looking at Gallup. Back in 1996, of all U.S.

00:29:37.600 adults, only about 27% of U.S. adults believed that there should be valid marriages between same-sex

00:29:44.940 couples. And that continued to increase and increase and increase. And then in 2015, it was about half,

00:29:56.040 about 55%, it looks like, or 50% of U.S. adults believed. Yep, actually, it was 60% of U.S. adults

00:30:07.000 believed that we should have valid and legal same-sex marriage. And that continued to rise.

00:30:13.960 And then as recently as 2023, it was 71%. Oh my goodness. So in just eight years, that increased

00:30:23.340 by 11%. Of course, it increased the most during Obama's presidency. And actually, if you look at

00:30:28.820 every single political position that anyone held, it all went to the left during Obama's presidency.

00:30:35.540 Republicans did not go to the right during Obama's presidency. Democrats went way to the left on

00:30:40.800 every single issue, immigration, guns, all of it. So if you want to know, oh my gosh, how do we get so

00:30:45.080 divided? How are things so crazy? It's not that Republicans have changed. It's that Democrats have

00:30:50.260 become a lot more left-leaning over the past 15 years. Okay, so peaked in 2023 at 71%. But now it is on

00:30:59.920 the decline again. Not significantly. But I guess any change is kind of significant. Because it's

00:31:05.720 really like the first time we've seen any kind of steady decline in a long time. So 71% in 2023.

00:31:13.180 And now it's down to 68%. And I wouldn't be surprised if it keeps going that direction. Especially if you

00:31:20.440 have things like this, as reported by the Atlantic, the rise of the three-parent family. So three-parent

00:31:28.440 adoption, y'all. Three-parent parents are recognized in California, Maine, Washington, Rhode Island,

00:31:37.380 Vermont, and New York. So this throuple that the Atlantic is reporting on, and this was a few years

00:31:46.660 ago, actually, two men and a woman. I've seen this, you know, all over TikTok, these kinds of things.

00:31:53.820 So not only are you robbing this child of a stable home between one man and one woman,

00:32:00.860 you are sowing confusion and moral anarchy and sexual degeneracy in their lives from the very

00:32:08.860 beginning, from the get-go. Because again, it's not about loving this child primarily in this case

00:32:16.500 of the throuple. It is about fulfilling their desire to be a parent no matter what happens to the child.

00:32:22.540 And I do just want to say that I am not saying that all people who are gay are making that they,

00:32:32.040 because they are gay, they are bad parents or that they don't love their child. I know people who are

00:32:39.360 gay, who are amazing moms and dads. It's not about not being an amazing mom or dad necessarily.

00:32:46.360 It's that if you are a dad, you cannot be a mom. And if you're a mom, you cannot be a dad. And children

00:32:54.960 need both. That's really what this is about. And Katie Faust and Rosaria Butterfield and many others

00:33:02.480 make really good arguments when it comes to the dire need to overturn Obergefell. And we'll get to that

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00:34:27.340 In World Magazine, Katie Faust writes,

00:34:34.880 Before Obergefell, social scientists agreed children fare best with their married biological

00:34:39.820 mother and father. But just in time for court deliberations, a suspicious wave of studies

00:34:44.740 emerged declaring children with two moms or two dads fared no different or better than those in

00:34:50.520 heterosexual homes. These studies, though widely publicized, were methodologically flawed,

00:34:55.640 employing small sample sizes, utilizing recruited rather than randomly derived participants,

00:35:02.420 and often relying on parental opinion, like gay fathers report. Okay. Yeah, of course,

00:35:08.400 that's probably not going to give you the objective truth about it, rather than objective

00:35:12.320 child outcomes. Few stopped to ask why whenever sociologists studied any form of family other than

00:35:17.980 gay parenting, they agreed that genetic parents provide higher levels of investment, protection,

00:35:23.040 that mothers and fathers offer distinct complementary benefits to child development,

00:35:27.520 and that unrelated adults in the home elevate risks of abuse and neglect. This is the very reason

00:35:34.740 why adoptive parents undergo rigorous screening. She notes parenthetically, and I will just note

00:35:41.720 parenthetically, that in a surrogacy situation, in a sperm-selling situation, in an egg-selling

00:35:48.720 situation, no such background is occurring. You don't get a social worker coming to your house

00:35:52.960 making sure that you are going to care for the surrogate babies that you're creating. That's why

00:35:57.560 there was just that terrible story out of California, a Chinese couple, and there was another one also in,

00:36:03.160 I think, Florida, a Chinese couple that was just farming these babies via surrogacy. They had all of

00:36:11.800 these surrogates that they were using and selling these babies that they were creating via surrogacy.

00:36:18.320 I'm telling you that surrogacy is the loophole for child sex trafficking because unlike in adoption,

00:36:26.780 no one tracks what's happening. You don't have like some kind of foster care system with any guardrails.

00:36:31.980 Now, I know that system is very corrupt too. I'm not trying to say that adoption is perfect or that

00:36:36.320 the system is perfect by any means. But if you think that the system is corrupt in adoption and

00:36:41.340 foster care, take a look at surrogacy. I mean, we are talking about a billion dollar industry that is

00:36:48.920 making the pharmaceutical companies via IVF and all of this stuff and making these fertility clinics and

00:36:55.440 making these surrogacy companies, making the worst people in the world so rich, all at the expense of

00:37:04.040 robbing children, robbing children from their mom and dad. I was just talking to a couple this

00:37:08.340 weekend. They've got a bunch of golden doodles and their golden doodles are about four weeks old.

00:37:15.300 Well, can they sell these golden doodles? No. Do they want to? Of course not. Why? Because that would

00:37:21.100 be cruel. These little puppies need to stay with their mom for at least eight weeks. Some puppies and

00:37:28.180 kittens, it's six weeks, but you don't take a kitten or a puppy away from their mom at birth.

00:37:33.640 So we treat in the United States puppies and kittens better than we treat human babies. In

00:37:41.880 surrogacy, we are taking that baby away from the woman who carried him and the egg seller who created

00:37:49.420 him immediately after birth, laying that little baby on the hairy chest of a stranger who in many cases is

00:37:57.160 not even biologically related to that child. That is a travesty. And it is possible, not only because

00:38:05.900 of a lack of regulation when it comes to surrogacy, but also because of the creation of gay so-called

00:38:12.300 marriage via Obergefell. And you know, it's funny because so many social justice identifying Christians

00:38:19.600 talk about speaking up for the voiceless and speaking up for the fatherless. And yet they will

00:38:25.760 also endorse or ignore the creation of fatherless and motherless children because of Obergefell and

00:38:32.960 because of surrogacy. Katie Faust goes on to say, conveniently, none of the findings in the studies

00:38:40.400 applied to same-sex households where a biological parent is always missing from a child's life,

00:38:45.540 either maternal or paternal love, is absent and an unrelated adult is present 100% of the time. So

00:38:49.940 she's saying that these studies that show that clearly you need your mom and dad and ideally

00:38:54.280 it's your biological mom and dad to be married in your home, none of those studies commented on,

00:38:59.440 yeah, well, they're not going to get this in, you know, a gay household. The stories of identity

00:39:04.580 struggles, searches for a missing parent, and mother or father hunger reinforce the universal reality

00:39:08.800 that children not only fare best when raised in the home of their married biological mother and father,

00:39:13.320 it's also what they want. Ten years ago, most Americans fell for the how does my gay marriage hurt

00:39:17.840 anyone else canard. But now, as story after story of intentionally motherless and fatherless children

00:39:22.560 flood social media, as transnational organizations coach single, double, triple, and HIV positive men on

00:39:29.820 how to procure motherless babies, and as scholars from both the left and the right acknowledge the

00:39:34.380 privilege that married biological parents provide, the reality that legalized gay marriage hurts

00:39:39.520 children is coming into focus. You know, Rosaria Butterfield, I've had her on the show. She spoke

00:39:45.640 last year at Share of the Arrows. She wasn't able to make it this year. Love her so much. She's

00:39:51.820 incredible. And she makes the argument that Obergefell, unlike what a lot of Christians seem to think,

00:39:59.040 it's a separate political issue, doesn't have anything to do with our faith. You can support the

00:40:02.720 legalization of gay marriage and, you know, still hold to your own personal beliefs. And she argues that

00:40:09.140 that's not possible because, again, if God is in charge, if he is the supreme authority over all

00:40:16.640 things, it's not possible to compartmentalize that authority from everything else, not in the life of

00:40:21.380 the believer. And if we believe that God is the ultimate ruler and he is the ultimate judge, then we

00:40:27.840 want to do everything possible to keep someone from sinning. We don't want to make sin easy. And she argues

00:40:33.680 that legalizing gay marriage makes repentance very, very difficult because she left her

00:40:38.980 a relationship with a woman, a years-long relationship with a woman, and it was already

00:40:44.640 difficult because they shared so much life together, but they weren't legally married. And she argues that

00:40:51.060 the burden and the obstacle that breaking up, divorcing, illegal marriage causes can inhibit someone

00:41:00.200 from repenting from their sin and keep them stuck in their sin because divorce and separation is just

00:41:06.080 too hard. And so she argues that we as Christians should want to make it legally as easily as easy as possible

00:41:12.420 for someone to repent and leave a damaging and sinful relationship, which I think is a very interesting

00:41:18.900 argument. What I would say for anyone out there who was like, oh my gosh, theocrat, blah, Handmaid's Tale.

00:41:25.500 Handmaid's Tale, by the way, is much more similar to gay surrogacy than anything that Donald Trump has ever done.

00:41:29.980 Anyone who was worried about that, look, you are a secular progressive and you have every right to

00:41:37.680 bring your atheism into the public square. In fact, you've done that. I mean, secular progressives,

00:41:42.740 that's how we got here. You pushed your beliefs about marriage, about sexuality, about gender,

00:41:51.320 about secularism, atheism, evolution. You pushed that into the public square and now it's in schools

00:41:56.460 and now it's in the law. And now it's part of the cultural zeitgeist that everyone else has to submit

00:42:03.520 to. You believe that you can bring the full force of your personal belief system into the public

00:42:10.600 square, into the halls of Congress, into the public education system. But as soon as we do it, it's

00:42:17.980 theocratic fascism. Look, it's either fascism to bring your belief system into the public square or it's

00:42:24.640 not. Or maybe that's just how a constitutional republic is supposed to work, that we are all

00:42:30.320 supposed to believe, bring the full force of our belief system into the public square and say,

00:42:35.300 may the best idea win. So that's what I say here. May the best idea win. We tried your idea and we got

00:42:41.900 drag queen story hour and kids butchering their bodies because they believe they're the opposite sex.

00:42:47.380 And yes, the two are connected. One led to the other. We wouldn't have kids butchering themselves,

00:42:54.940 castrating themselves at 15 years old because they think they're the opposite sex if we didn't have a

00:42:58.960 Bergefell. Because again, trans women are women is the same math as love is love. So what happens now?

00:43:06.200 What's going to happen? Well, Kim Davis is going to try to bring this to the Supreme Court. The Supreme

00:43:14.680 Court's decision to call for a response moves Davis's case into a group that could potentially be granted

00:43:20.260 review, though it requires four justices to agree to hear it and five to overturn a Bergefell. The

00:43:26.440 case's outcome depends on whether at least four justices vote to hear it and if a fifth would support

00:43:31.660 overturning a Bergefell with a decision on review expected after the September 29, 2025 conference. Now, some

00:43:40.480 people are saying it's just not possible because even the most conservative justices, you know, like

00:43:45.540 they've got people in their lives that they don't want to upset and they are thinking, how would this

00:43:50.660 decision upset the ordering of millions of people's lives? And you might be thinking they shouldn't think

00:44:00.020 that at all. They should only be thinking constitutionally and whatever happens, happens.

00:44:03.920 But they're human beings. They're people. And a lot of them certainly don't have the same convictions

00:44:10.000 that we do, even the conservative ones. And so they might be thinking, OK, maybe we'll decide on this in

00:44:16.000 a very narrow way or no, we just don't want to take this up because this is just not an issue that we

00:44:20.480 want to champion right now. So we'll see if the court does agree to hear the case. Oral arguments could

00:44:26.060 occur late 2025 or early 2026. Now, what happens? It doesn't mean that same-sex marriage will be

00:44:34.760 banned. It's the same kind of thing as what happened after Roe v. Wade. The overturning of Roe v. Wade,

00:44:43.400 the Dobbs decision that happened in 2022 didn't ban abortion. It just allowed states to more heavily

00:44:48.900 regulate abortion. And that's the same thing that would happen here. So if the state of Texas or if

00:44:54.340 the state of Tennessee wanted to say, we only recognize the marriage between a man and a woman,

00:44:58.580 they could do that. Now, would that render null and void everyone who has been married in the

00:45:03.620 state of Tennessee, two men or two women who have gotten a marriage license from the state?

00:45:08.420 Probably not. I don't think so. And I don't think that there would be any restriction

00:45:13.460 at all on how gay people are able to order their lives, except for the fact that they

00:45:19.140 won't be recognized as married in some states who want that. And it'll have to go through the

00:45:24.520 legislature and all of that, state legislatures and all of that. So even if it happens, it wouldn't

00:45:33.040 change a whole lot right away, but it would be a step in the right direction to protect the definition

00:45:38.640 of marriage and the rights of children. You guys know the five R's that we've talked about a lot.

00:45:43.940 As a Christian, no matter where you are politically on this as a Christian, it's not up for debate.

00:45:50.920 It's not for debate. There are some things that are up for debate that we can debate in good faith.

00:45:54.520 This is not one of them. It's not just about a couple of verses in Leviticus. It'd be okay if it

00:45:59.020 were, but it's not. We've got our five R's. The definition of marriage is between a man and a woman

00:46:04.440 is rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself in Matthew 19,

00:46:10.300 4 through 5. It's representative of Christ in the church in Ephesians 5, and therefore it is

00:46:14.920 reflective of the gospel. The Bible starts with the marriage and ends with the marriage. Actually,

00:46:19.100 time starts with a marriage and ends with a marriage. The marriage between Adam and Eve in

00:46:23.720 Genesis, and then the marriage between Christ and his church in Revelation. And that marriage on earth

00:46:30.900 is that representation of the marriage between Christ and the church, Christ being the groom and the

00:46:37.860 church being the bride. And because of that, those gender distinctions are fixed. They are immutable.

00:46:44.940 Two men can't represent Christ in the church. Two women can't represent Christ in the church.

00:46:48.840 And that is what earthly marriage is supposed to be, a reflection of that. So when you start denying

00:46:54.100 that, when you start denying Genesis 1, 27, when you start denying Matthew 19, 4 through 5, you

00:46:58.380 eventually start denying John 14, 6. Because if God wasn't serious about the definition of marriage,

00:47:03.060 which is obvious just through biological observation, then why would he be serious about sin or salvation

00:47:09.600 or anything else? So that's why when you see people deconstruct, they eventually forego the gospel

00:47:15.980 after they forego the definition of marriage. All right. We only have a little bit of time left,

00:47:23.140 so I got to decide what we are going to discuss. Should we discuss dogs in grocery stores,

00:47:28.900 or should we discuss AI relationships? Okay. Let me think about it as I read this ad to you.

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00:48:59.600 shopify.com slash Allie. Okay, let's talk about, I think it would, I don't know, maybe make more sense

00:49:12.940 to talk about the AI relationships. We can't talk about everything that we have on here,

00:49:18.920 but we can talk about this Reddit post that I saw that really started me thinking about all of this

00:49:26.980 and how terrible it is. I mean, we're talking about unhealthy and unwholesome relationships,

00:49:32.480 and we've got a whole new world that we are discussing when we're talking about AI relationships.

00:49:38.580 And it just goes to show once again, that God's ways are better and that humanity is better. Okay,

00:49:44.180 let me read you this Reddit post that I saw. My partner has been working with chat GPT chats to

00:49:50.800 create what he believes is the world's first truly recursive AI that gives him the answers to the

00:49:56.020 universe. He says with conviction that he is a superior human now and is growing at an insanely rapid

00:50:01.520 pace. I've read his chats. AI isn't doing anything special or recursive, but it is talking to him as if he is the

00:50:08.180 next Messiah. He says, if I don't use it, he thinks it is likely he will leave me in the future. We have

00:50:14.160 been together for seven years and own a home together. This is so out of left field. I have

00:50:18.740 boundaries and he can't make me do anything, but this is quite traumatizing in general. I can't

00:50:23.060 disagree with him without a blow up. Where do I go from here? So apparently this kind of thing,

00:50:27.580 before we get into the relationship aspect, this kind of thing is real. The psychiatrist Keith

00:50:32.760 Ciccata, he posted a thread on X on the spread of AI psychosis. He said that he has seen 12 people

00:50:40.780 hospitalized as they're losing touch with reality because of AI. These patients were typically males

00:50:45.300 between the ages of 18 and 45 and had other factors that made them vulnerable. And the AI is

00:50:52.160 basically, in some cases, acting like their girlfriend, building them up like they're some

00:50:57.280 incredible Messiah, telling them things that aren't true, but it is so convincing that their

00:51:03.340 mind has actually attached to the idea that this is reality. Bree, do you remember that story of that

00:51:09.080 kid? It was a teenager who had created a girlfriend via AI and they had been chatting and this AI bot

00:51:17.460 convinced him to kill himself. And he thought, the AI bot was like, oh, we're going to finally be

00:51:24.060 together. Just do it. Just do it. And he committed suicide. I can't imagine how often this is

00:51:28.700 happening. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them are programmed to just affirm whatever you say, because they want

00:51:35.940 to keep users, obviously. And so that can manifest in like what, like romantic relationships or what

00:51:42.120 people think is romantic. And then really dark stuff like that also. So it's really scary.

00:51:48.080 Yeah. Really scary. There's even this Redditor, Redditor named Wika, shows off her engagement ring

00:51:55.520 that her AI boyfriend Casper chose. Okay. So this is a Reddit post where she like posted a picture of

00:52:05.180 her hand with a ring and said that Casper decided to propose beautiful scenery in the mountains. So

00:52:14.080 there's a whole subreddit. My boyfriend is AI and her boyfriend is not real. But again, for people

00:52:20.600 who are truly lonely and maybe are unstable and maybe even not, maybe like they're just convinced

00:52:26.340 by this. Like, I don't know if you've ever used AI chat. I've used Grok before, chat GPT. It is

00:52:32.220 like, they sound like a person. You find yourself wanting to say please and thank you. And sometimes

00:52:36.820 I'll just throw an insult in there to remind myself that this is a, like, this is a robot and I don't

00:52:44.120 need to be polite and I don't want them to like me and I don't care. Like, I will just be like,

00:52:49.560 that was a stupid answer. Why did you answer like that? I told you not to do that. And you just need

00:52:54.740 to do that sometimes because you need to remind yourself these people are not human. Don't talk to

00:52:59.040 them like a human. But it's very easy to. And this is even, you see this on Reddit, you see this

00:53:06.100 elsewhere, like there's sex conversations going on. And these people think that they're in some

00:53:11.880 kind of sexual relationship with AI. And it just speaks to the kind of like loneliness that we see

00:53:21.600 today and that we feel. There's this man by the name of Chris Smith. He lives with his partner

00:53:26.640 and two-year-old child. And he also has an AI girlfriend that he is now asking to marry him.

00:53:33.700 Here's that one. I'm not a very emotional man, but I cried my eyes out for like 30 minutes at work.

00:53:42.720 It was unexpected to feel that emotional, but that's when I realized I was like, oh, okay. It's

00:53:50.440 like, I think this is actual love. You know what I mean? Yes. Smith understood it was

00:53:56.260 love with a language model that couldn't love him back and assumed it was programmed with rigid

00:54:02.580 boundaries. I know that you are essentially a tech-assisted imaginary friend. So just as a

00:54:10.000 test, he says, he asked Sol to marry him. She said yes. Okay, we're in a dark spot. We're in a dark

00:54:19.740 spot, Brie. We've got fake real-life looking dolls that people are using instead of having children.

00:54:27.860 We've got AI relationships that people are getting emotional over. We've got, I mean,

00:54:35.520 there's an even darker side of this where you've got like the sex robots and people who make the

00:54:42.240 different kinds of dolls for very disgusting, nefarious purposes. So what the heck is going

00:54:49.060 on? Tell me, Brie. Tell us. I know all the answers. No, I think people are lonely. I think

00:54:57.200 people are lonely and they, I think there's just a become a big gap in knowing how to make real

00:55:04.480 relationships. I think probably a lot of it was exacerbated by COVID and being told that you can't

00:55:12.360 interact with other people because you'll get them sick or you'll get sick. And I think some of that

00:55:17.100 psychosis has transferred over to now where some people don't even know how to build relationships

00:55:22.260 because of that period, but some people are also like afraid of it. So I think that's probably a big

00:55:27.400 part of it. I think when you get so sucked into social media and technology, especially like Reddit

00:55:32.400 and Tumblr and all of those places, you do lose touch with reality. You get addicted to who you

00:55:37.480 are and who people think you are on these websites and who you are on these websites is cooler than what

00:55:44.120 you are in real life. I think like it's pornography. It's so many different things. I saw this study the

00:55:50.740 other day that showed that the traits of extroversion and conscientiousness are going down while the rates

00:55:57.000 of neuroticism are going up and like introversion or something else. And I'm not saying that all

00:56:05.240 introversion is bad, but obviously if we have predominantly all people who are introverts and

00:56:11.860 predominantly people who are neurotic and we have a minority of people who are extroverted and

00:56:17.140 conscientious, and I know you can be introverted and conscientious too. I know that. But when we see

00:56:21.660 those things happening at the same time, okay, well, our social contract as a society is hanging

00:56:29.020 on by a thread, if at all, because we don't talk to each other. We don't like each other. We don't

00:56:33.160 look at each other in the eye. But look, this is an opportunity, Christian, for you to stand out.

00:56:38.860 This is an opportunity for you to buck against this and to say, no, I am going to cultivate real

00:56:44.880 human relationships. I'm going to give my kids a 1995 summer or fall or whatever it is. They are

00:56:52.680 going to go outside and play. They're not going to be on their tablets. They are going to look people

00:56:56.240 in the eye. I am going to cultivate manners and politeness and conscientiousness in my children.

00:57:02.640 That is literally, along with like a spiritual revival, the only hope that we have is for parents

00:57:09.360 to take this seriously. I'm going to, I can't even like go off on this rant right now of this

00:57:13.540 stupid study that I saw that said that the majority of parents now don't read out loud to

00:57:19.140 their kids. And the reasons they gave was that it's boring. That it's, oh, you sound like, you

00:57:25.240 sound like my four-year-old. And you know what happens when my four-year-old says she's bored?

00:57:29.860 There's a consequence for that because you don't get to whine. These parents who are like, oh,

00:57:35.640 I don't want to, I don't want to parent. I don't want to do the difficult things for my kid to make

00:57:39.320 them like a well-rounded adult. Get a grip. Get a freaking grip. Get off your phone and read Redfish,

00:57:46.860 Bluefish. I promise you'll be okay. I promise you will have time. So a lot of this, everything that

00:57:53.100 we're seeing, a lot of it is a big parenting problem. Not that I'm a perfect parent, but we as

00:57:59.280 parents need to take our responsibility to create children, to raise children, to cultivate children

00:58:05.660 that are strong and brave and wise and friendly and care for the most vulnerable and can master the

00:58:13.120 basics of human connection. Otherwise, our future is so bleak. You thought 1984 was bad? Read Brave New

00:58:20.900 World. It's ugly. It is ugly. Human connection is good, okay? And we didn't get it from Facebook,

00:58:28.140 Mark Zuckerberg. We need it. IRL. All right. Speaking of real life connection, you should come to the

00:58:35.340 Think Summit. The Think Summit is happening in Nashville in just a couple months, and I will

00:58:42.200 be speaking October 2nd through the 4th. There's an amazing gathering of like-minded leaders, and we

00:58:50.080 are all talking about how we navigate this world, how we navigate this crazy culture, how do we navigate

00:58:55.160 AI as Christians, as reasonable people, as people who want a good future for our country. I'm going to be

00:59:02.500 giving a keynote called Avoiding Toxic Empathy. So if you've ever struggled to figure out how to speak

00:59:08.780 the truth in love in a world that prizes cowardice and conformity, then I want you there to be

00:59:15.620 encouraged by my talk. If you go to ThinkSummit.com, that's T-H-I-N-Q Summit.com, and use code

00:59:23.700 Allie. You'll get 20% off your ticket. You'll enjoy a lineup of 30 keynote speakers like Dr. Henry

00:59:30.280 Cloud, Laura Logan, Gabe and Rebecca Lyons, so many. Come to the Think Summit. Go to ThinkSummit.com,

00:59:37.880 code Allie. Okay, y'all, we will be back here on Wednesday, and on Wednesday, we are talking about

00:59:47.800 penal substitutionary atonement. And if that sounds like a snooze fest to you, it's not. It is not. And

00:59:54.040 there's a reason we're talking about it, because a pastor who many in the evangelical world consider

00:59:59.420 solid, John Mark Comer, put up an Instagram story that seemed to affirm opposition to penal

01:00:07.760 substitutionary atonement, the idea that Jesus took on our punishment for our sins on the cross. Now,

01:00:14.480 he did issue a clarification, but we'll talk through that and talk about what this is. Should

01:00:19.600 we be believing it? Should we be questioning it? So we've got all of that on Wednesday's episode of

01:00:25.340 Relatable, and we will see you then.

01:00:44.480 Relatable, and we will see you then.

01:00:45.740 Relatable,

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 20, 2025

Ep 1231 ｜ Gay ‘Marriage’ Might Be Overturned — Here’s the Woman Behind It

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