Ep 1234 ｜ Antichrist, Transhumanism & the Strange Faith of Peter Thiel
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 3 minutes
Words per Minute
163.23639
Summary
The Antichrist is the current topic of discussion in Silicon Valley, should we be worried? Also, yours truly came up in an interview between the New York Times and Jen Hatmaker for an interesting reason. Also, we have an announcement to give you all of this and more on today's episode of Relatable.
Transcript
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The Antichrist is the current topic of discussion in Silicon Valley. Should we be worried?
00:00:06.280
Also, yours truly came up in an interview between the New York Times and Jen Hatmaker
00:00:10.200
for an interesting reason that we'll discuss. Also, we have an announcement to give you
00:00:16.960
all of this and more on today's episode of Relatable.
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. All right,
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we've got a lot to get through today, quite a range of things. And we've also got an announcement to
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make in just a little bit. But first, I want to talk about an article that I saw over the weekend
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in the New York Times about Jen Hatmaker. Now, if you don't know who Jen Hatmaker is,
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then maybe you weren't a Christian woman in 2014 that was in the evangelical world.
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Jen Hatmaker was a very popular speaker and author around this time and a little bit before that.
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She's very dynamic, very charismatic, very friendly, very kind of artistic, free-spirited. And so she
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brought something a little bit different to the evangelical Southern Baptist space that a lot
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of women really enjoyed. However, she has since deconstructed. And in 2015, I believe it was, she made
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this big announcement about being gay affirming, LGBTQ affirming. And you'll remember, because we've
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covered it, that our dear Rosaria Butterfield, who is absolutely amazing, she wrote this incredible
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rebuttal to what Jen Hatmaker had announced on Facebook in the Gospel Coalition, just saying that
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what Jen Hatmaker said affirming LGBTQ would have pushed the former Rosaria, who was in a longtime
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lesbian relationship as a queer feminist professor at Syracuse University, further into her sin.
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That was Rosaria's argument, that Jen Hatmaker, out of what she calls love and acceptance and a personal
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evolution of her views, is actually pulling people away from repentance, away from Christ,
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and deeper into their sin, which of course is separating them from God. And therefore, no matter
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how loving and accepting and empathetic something sounds, if it is affirming sin, then it is ultimately
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hateful. Because we talk about this a lot, we talk about this in my first book, You're Not Enough, but we
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really drive home this point in toxic empathy. How empathy becomes toxic is when it goes from simply trying
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to feel how someone feels to allowing those feelings to push you in three directions toward validating
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sin, affirming lies, or affirming lies and validating sin, you could say either direction, or supporting
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destructive policies. So affirming sin, validating lies, or supporting destructive policies. That is how you
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know empathy has become toxic. Empathy by itself can be neutral. It can lead you in a good direction toward
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acting out in love and kindness. Or as it is such a powerful feeling, it can lead you toward the
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direction of affirming sin. And that is the direction that it led Jen Hatmaker. And now she's got a memoir
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out. I'm giving it some free press here. I'm talking about her divorce, the disintegration of
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her marriage and what her life looks like now, what her faith looks like now. She is very, very
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progressive. She openly affirms, for example, transgenderism in children. She is like as far left
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as it comes when it comes to those very important foundational theological and civilizational
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issues. And unfortunately, she's brought a lot of women who have always loved her into that camp
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of denying what the Bible calls good and right and true. And there was this interview between a New York
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Times journalist and Jen Hatmaker. And that was just published. And for some reason, I was brought
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up. I personally find this like a random insertion of my name. But I also think for whatever reason,
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I've been in the New York Times a lot lately. I think that they are starting to view me as some
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kind of representative of conservative evangelicalism, which, okay, I'll take it. But this interviewer,
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seemingly out of nowhere, said to Jen Hatmaker, it's interesting for me to hear you say that
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in the context. So she's talking about, Jen Hatmaker was talking about, you know, the old way of her
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faith, evangelicalism, not serving her. She's come to this new place after she deconstructed all of that.
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And then the journalist says, it's interesting for me to hear you say that in the context of criticism
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that has been leveled at you from the evangelical influencer, Allie Beth Stuckey. Her argument is that you
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have a salad bar approach to faith. You pick and choose what you like and discard what you don't.
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And also, you let your positions be defined by feelings rather than scripture. I mean, go in,
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David. Come on. Is there something that that line of criticism is missing about you and Christianity?
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And then Jen says, I don't listen to that. I don't care about that. And that doesn't bother me.
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Fair enough, Jen. And then David says, why do you think it's wrong? She says, my faith is still
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what anchors me, what leads me, what compels me, what sustains me. I had always deeply succeeded
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in the two institutions, the chemicredible church and marriage. Having lost one and disconnected myself
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from the other, so lost marriage, disconnected from church, I've discovered a faith that exists
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beautifully outside of that. And of course, I would ask, with as much genuine love as possible,
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faith in what? Faith in what? Faith in whom? Faith in yourself? Faith in some vague spirituality?
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If it's faith in Jesus Christ, yes and amen. But can you affirm that Jesus is who he says he is? Can you
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affirm what he says in Matthew 19, that in the beginning, God made us male and female. What God
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has brought together, let no man separate? Can you affirm Jesus, whom you say you follow? Can you
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affirm what he says about marriage, about gender, about sexuality, about sin, about repentance? But
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really, all of those are secondary to the question, can you affirm what Jesus says about himself in John
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14, 6, that he is the way, the truth, the life, that no one comes to the Father except through him.
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Because what I so often see is that when people start denying Genesis 1, 27, first chapter of
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the first book of the Bible, that God made us male and female, they are on their way to then denying
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John 14, 6, that Jesus is the way, the truth, the life, that no one can come to the Father except
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through him. And it's because you're not just denying these little small pieces of the Bible that
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are tertiary, that ultimately don't matter. You are denying the authority of God's Word. You are
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denying the authority and the trustworthiness of Jesus himself when it comes to a very basic tenet
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of Christianity. And if you're going to deny that, something that can not only be read in the first
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chapter, but observed biologically, observed in the world, then of course you'll eventually deny
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the spiritually discernible truth, which is that Jesus is the only way to heaven. This sort of faith
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is very appealing to the world because it doesn't ask you to make any sacrifices. You don't have to
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deny yourself. You never have to deny your feelings. All of the things that the Bible calls sins, you can
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just call personality traits or innate desires that you don't have to push to the side. And it is a kind
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of so-called Christianity that simply affirms everything that the world affirms. Instead of
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the Christianity that calls us to be enemies of the world so that we are friends with God,
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it pits itself as friends with the world and puts itself in enmity with God. And that is a very,
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very dangerous place to be when we start judging our love and our goodness by how the world reacts to us.
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And all of us have done that one time or another, rather than by the standard of God's word,
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we just make more and more compromises at first in the name of evangelism and the name of appealing
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to those who are seeking. And then it is just simply because we have grown to be calloused to the
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convictions of the Holy Spirit. And so genuinely, I don't say this with any animus. I don't say this
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with any sarcasm or condescension. Like I want to pray for Jen Hatmaker. I want to pray for Rachel
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Hollis. I want to pray for Glennon Doyle. I kind of put all of those women in a similar bucket. They
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are all kind of repackaging self-help in a spiritual way that I think confuses a lot of women. And
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whenever I think of those women who are all about the self, loving yourself, finding yourself,
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I always think about this passage in 2 Timothy 3. But understand this, that in the last days,
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there will come times of difficulty for people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud,
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arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable,
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slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving, good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with
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conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness,
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but denying its power, avoid such people. Listen to this. For among them are those who creep into
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households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
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always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of truth. That is what I think of when
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I think of these women who are leading so many vulnerable and gullible women astray. Their
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message of self-empowerment and self-liberation is so appealing, especially to those who have been
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hurt by people in the church or who claim the name of Christ. But ultimately, it is always learning and
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never arriving at a full knowledge of truth because it's never leading to the only freedom and
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satisfaction you can find which is in Christ. All right. Speaking of the last days, Silicon Valley
00:11:08.780
is looking toward Armageddon and they are talking about the Antichrist. That is not a story you hear
00:11:14.680
every day. But first, let me tell you about specifically something for the related bros out
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there. Okay. I got to talk to the related bros. I got to talk to the husbands and the sons and the
00:11:27.540
boyfriends and the dads. I got to talk to all of you. See, your wife or your daughter or your mom or
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your sister or your girlfriend wants to come to share the arrows, but she's not sure how she's going
00:11:42.580
to get there. And she's a little worried about it. Maybe she's worried about it money-wise, which is
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understandable. She's worried about it logistics. And if she is a young mom like me, she's got young
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kids, husbands out there. She's worried about who is going to take care of things while she's gone.
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And listen, related bros, I need you to make sure that if your wife wants to come to share the arrows,
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that everything is in place for her to be able to come. Because she will go and then leave feeling
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so refreshed and so confident and so renewed in hope and encouragement. She will make lifelong friends
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and it will just fill her heart and sharpen her mind so much. So if you've been thinking about it,
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or if your wife has been talking about it, but she's worried, instead of just saying, oh yeah,
00:12:37.060
that's a lot to worry about, then my encouragement to you is to do whatever you can to make her feel
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comfortable and confident that she can go. She can bring her sister. She can bring her friend.
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She can go by herself. That you are going to hold things down. That everything is going to be great
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when she comes back. I think that holds a lot of women back from doing things that would be really
00:13:02.900
good because of all of the other things that we have to manage and all the people that we're thinking
00:13:07.060
about. And that's a good thing. And maybe this is not her year to be able to go. But if it's
00:13:11.920
possible, really, to bro, try everything you can to make it happen. And if she wants more
00:13:17.160
information, if you want more information, just go to sharethearrows.com. We're going to have an
00:13:22.160
incredible turnout this year. We're going to have incredible teachers. We've got Elisa Childers.
00:13:26.400
We've got Ginger Duggar-Volo. We've got Taylor Dukes, Katie Faust, Abby Halberstadt. If she likes
00:13:32.340
motherhood, if she likes health, if she aspires to these things, if she just likes apologetics,
00:13:37.940
theology, and worship, and encouragement, and Christian fellowship, she's got to come
00:13:43.580
to share the arrows. It's going to be absolutely amazing. None of that self-help slop that we just
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told you about. No self-empowerment. No. We are learning how to arm ourselves with God's
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word, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and to be obedient in every realm of life that God has
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placed us in. And this year's Share the Arrows is brought to you by our friends at Carly Jean Los
00:14:03.540
Angeles. So make sure that you go to sharethearrows.com. Get your tickets today. Again,
00:14:08.080
you can use Taylor 15, unlock 15% off, and that discount should help you out. Before we get into
00:14:14.740
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00:15:32.200
So I am going to be leaving the Relatable Team. And so we thought we needed to tell you guys.
00:15:41.220
Yeah. Okay. Tell them why. Is it because we're angry at each other?
00:15:46.440
Yeah. Big feud. No, it's really a sad thing for me. So I came, some of you know, I came from the
00:15:54.020
ministry world and doing overseas missions. And I have just really felt God calling me back into
00:16:00.440
that world. And so that's what I'm going to be doing. I'm kind of leaving the podcast world for
00:16:05.780
at least a little while going back into missions. And I'm super excited about it, but really sad to
00:16:12.600
be leaving Allie and Relatable. And you all have been so, so sweet to me. And I'm just so thankful
00:16:20.960
for that. Best audience in the world. So grateful for the three years that I have been here and all
00:16:28.340
the opportunity and getting to know some of you. I'll still be at Share the Arrows. So I'll see some
00:16:33.340
of you there, I'm sure. But yeah, that's what I'm doing.
00:16:37.320
Can you say what you'll be doing generally at the, I won't say the organization, the new ministry?
00:16:43.860
Well, so I'm going to be working pretty directly with missionaries who are overseas working in
00:16:48.720
really like closed, difficult countries to work in. So I actually can't say that much, but
00:16:53.860
I'm going to be helping mostly on the communication side of things. So I'll be based in the U.S.
00:16:59.600
still, but probably going on a lot of trips overseas to make sure that missionaries there
00:17:05.300
are well cared for and equipped to share the gospel with people there.
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So you were in ministry before you came to Relatable. A lot of people don't know. And we'll
00:17:15.220
talk more about this before, like on her last day, which is in just a couple weeks, by the way. So
00:17:21.080
we'll talk more about all of this. But Brie came to Relatable a few years ago, my other, so I needed
00:17:29.780
a producer. And we had a lot of applications. And I was like, I just don't think any of this feels
00:17:35.180
right. And then one day I was going through my like general email. And I happened to see an email
00:17:41.100
that she had sent several months earlier, asking, hey, like, are y'all hiring? And I looked at her
00:17:47.760
resume. And I was like, I kind of want to talk to this girl. And so we talked and we clicked and it
00:17:52.600
was great. And she came in with very little like podcasting, any kind of like media experience. And
00:17:58.540
she ran with it. And it's been a little over three years, because I think that was July of 2022. And
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oh my gosh, like so much has happened. The show has grown so much since then. So yeah, it's been,
00:18:11.620
it's been crazy. It's gone by fast, but also it feels like it's been like forever at the same time.
00:18:17.760
It's crazy that that's only like part of Relatable's life. But obviously, Brie has been a big part of
00:18:23.600
it. Okay, so you went ministry, and then you came, you did this for three years, and then you went to
00:18:29.640
ministry. What do you feel like you have learned as a producer that will, now you'll be able to take
00:18:36.300
into the ministry world? Oh my gosh, you're putting me on the spot here. Sorry. No, I think when I,
00:18:43.260
so I was on staff with Crew before. I'm not going back to Crew. It's a different ministry. But
00:18:47.140
there, I felt like I really wasn't as equipped to talk about a lot of the cultural issues. I
00:18:53.480
obviously had opinions and beliefs, but that was something that isn't necessarily relevant when
00:18:59.240
you're like sharing the gospel with someone in the Middle East, for example. But it is relevant
00:19:04.520
when you're talking to the people that you're working with, your like co-laborers who are also
00:19:10.180
working for the ministry. And that was a really weak point for me. And one of the reasons why I think
00:19:14.900
ultimately, the ministry world broke down for me. There were a lot of like liberal Christians in
00:19:20.520
the organization, and I just didn't really have the voice to speak up about anything. And so I think
00:19:26.760
that's one aspect that I feel much more equipped to do, thanks to you, really.
00:19:33.440
And now if anyone tries to convince you about pit bulls, like your mind has changed and you know.
00:19:38.440
No, I've never been pro pit bull for the record, but now I'm pretty radical.
00:19:46.340
Yeah. So that's one aspect. I think just being so clear about my convictions in a way that
00:19:52.340
that maybe I wasn't before. So that's good. And then, you know, there's lots of technical stuff
00:19:58.040
too, that is super useful just in working in general. So.
00:20:02.040
Yeah. Okay. Well, that will not be the last time you hear from Brie. She'll be here for the next
00:20:08.160
couple of weeks as we transition out of Brie era, the Brie era of relatable, but she will come back
00:20:16.080
on the show and we will have a formal farewell and wish her well. But I just wanted you guys to know
00:20:22.460
now, I didn't want it to seem like it was sudden or anything controversial. I am super grateful for
00:20:28.600
Brie, but I am very excited for her as she listens to the conviction that God has put on her heart and
00:20:35.440
she goes into this new realm and is an asset to this new ministry and yeah, new seasons of life,
00:20:42.440
new seasons for her, new seasons for the show. And so pray for the show too, that we find the right
00:20:48.260
person because it's not an easy role to fill. It's a big role to fill. Obviously someone who is in
00:20:55.140
alignment with my values, who has a lot of experience because at this point in the show,
00:21:02.100
it's not, it can't be a role for someone who is just like, I'm a quick learner. It's got to be a role
00:21:07.880
for someone who has experience at this point in podcasting. So I do just want to put that out there. If
00:21:14.780
you are someone who has the experience and the values, the skills that you think, um, could align with
00:21:24.160
a senior producing role for a show like this, or if you know someone, um, then please apply right
00:21:30.960
now. I'm going to send you to email relatable messages at gmail.com. There'll probably be like
00:21:37.640
an actual like job posting and all of that relatable messages at gmail.com. We can put it in
00:21:42.400
the description, send your resume, send your cover letter and all of that good stuff. I care about the
00:21:49.640
grammar in your emails, by the way, just FYI. Um, but that is, that's all I'm going to say about
00:21:56.340
that. And we'll talk more about Bree's farewell and future episodes. Oh, one thing I just wanted
00:22:01.860
to say, cause I know I'm going to get a comment about this before we get into like the meat of
00:22:06.280
today's episode. I know someone's going to tell me that I look like I'm wearing a prison jumpsuit
00:22:11.920
because it's an orange jumpsuit. I just want to defend myself. It really, it kind of does look like
00:22:15.840
that a little chicer though. Right. Um, I just want to say it's not orange in person. It's coral
00:22:20.660
in person, but the lights and the coloring of the studio kind of make everything a little bit
00:22:27.020
warmer. Orange is still in my color season, but it's not an orange jumpsuit. It is a coral jumpsuit.
00:22:33.660
I just wanted to defend myself there. All right. Speaking of that, Peter Thiel. Um, okay. So the
00:22:41.820
reason we're talking about him, I'm just kidding. That had nothing to do with Peter Thiel. The reason
00:22:46.180
that we're talking about Peter Thiel is because I saw something on X that Peter Thiel, this, uh,
00:22:52.420
tech entrepreneur, co-founder of PayPal and Palantir. Is that how you say it? And Palantir,
00:22:58.860
which is a company that creates software and analyze data for governments and things like that,
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that he is leading this seminar series about the antichrist on September 15th.
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And this caused me to look into Peter Thiel and who he actually is, what he actually believes. A lot
00:23:17.940
of this stuff, some of you probably already know, but there's probably some stuff that you don't want
00:23:22.460
to know, but I'm, or that you don't know, or maybe don't want to know, but he is a very interesting
00:23:27.700
person. And I wanted to know why would someone in Silicon Valley care about the antichrist? What does
00:23:33.460
he think about the antichrist? And is someone who is so rich and so powerful, so influential on all of
00:23:40.640
the technology that we have on our hand, in our hands and is influencing culture is what he thinks
00:23:46.400
about the antichrist going to be something that actually impacts us. So first, before we talk about
00:23:52.460
what his series actually is, why he's focusing on the antichrist, what he actually believes about it,
00:23:58.980
what it could mean for us, I would just want to back up and tell you who Peter Thiel is because
00:24:03.620
you might know or you may not know. So as I said, he is the co-founder of PayPal and Palantir.
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He is a multi-billionaire. He also identifies as a Christian, but he is married to a man,
00:24:18.920
has two children via IVF and surrogacy, which obviously is something that we've talked about
00:24:23.340
many times. He recently did an interview with Ross Dalfit, the podcast that I was on for the New York
00:24:31.100
Times called Interesting Times, where he said, as we'll get into later, that he doesn't actually
00:24:36.460
know if the human race should survive. And then he started talking about transhumanism. So needless to
00:24:43.600
say, Peter Thiel is a very heterodox person. He has a lot of interesting beliefs that seem to inform
00:24:50.520
what he thinks the antichrist is. So let's back up a little bit. He was born in Germany, raised in the
00:24:57.780
United States. In 1998, he co-founded this big company. He also invested in startups like Facebook
00:25:06.360
and other companies that made him millions and millions of dollars. He is a donor to Republican
00:25:16.180
campaigns like J.D. Vance's Senate run, like President Trump and Vance's presidential run.
00:25:25.420
He has a venture firm, Teal Capital, led a $3.8 million seed funding round in September 2022
00:25:35.100
for an app called 28. It was initially called 28 by Evie. It's a femtech app that offers cycle-based
00:25:43.400
information. So this app was created by a conservative influencer, Brittany Martinez,
00:25:50.360
who also founded Evie Magazine. He's not behind Evie Magazine, but he is behind this app. And as I
00:25:57.940
said, he is a self-proclaimed Christian who was raised by evangelical parents, but he's got some
00:26:05.520
really interesting things to say about Christianity. As you can imagine, as someone who is gay, who has
00:26:13.040
used surrogacy to procure his children, and who believes all kinds of things that you and I, as
00:26:20.720
evangelical Christians, do not believe. The statements that he has made about Christianity, I think, are
00:26:28.120
pretty interesting and speak to a heterodox view of who Christ actually is and what Christianity is.
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In a profile in the New Yorker, Atil stated, I believe Christianity to be true. I don't feel
00:28:06.920
a compelling need to convince other people of that. So that right there, I'm like, okay,
00:28:11.660
well, that's interesting. If you have the conviction that Christianity is true, but you don't feel
00:28:16.160
the conviction, a compelling need to tell other people about it. Of course, my question would be,
00:28:21.220
what part of Christianity do you believe? Because Jesus, one of the last commandments that he gave
00:28:27.200
us in Matthew 28, 19 through 20, he says, go therefore and make disciples of all nations,
00:28:33.020
baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all
00:28:37.660
that I have commanded you. Acts 1, 8, Jesus says, but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has
00:28:43.040
come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the
00:28:49.080
end of the earth. And to Vanity Fair, or according to Vanity Fair, in a 2020 speech he gave, he said,
00:28:55.520
I believe in the resurrection of Christ. The only good role model for us is Christ. Okay, again,
00:29:01.880
that is interesting to have that conviction, which is not an easy belief. Christianity is not an easy
00:29:07.760
belief system to hold. But then to say that he does not feel compelled to convince other people of that,
00:29:13.780
which is part and parcel with Christianity and our call as Christians, is very interesting.
00:29:20.600
He often speaks about Christianity in tech. In 2023, Peter Thiel gave a speech about miracles and
00:29:29.620
forgiveness and Jesus at a birthday party for his business partner. And a woman by the name of
00:29:37.140
Michelle Stevens was inspired by his speech and started something called the Act 17 Collective.
00:29:42.620
The group hosts events to help tech and entertainment leaders explore Christian faith. It stands for
00:29:48.860
Acknowledging Christ in Technology and Society, and also refers to Act 17 in the Bible.
00:29:58.480
So Thiel is a prominent supporter of Act 17. He speaks at a lot of their events, which again,
00:30:05.220
I just find so fascinating as someone whose own personal life, as we'll get into in a minute,
00:30:10.520
is so opposed to what Christianity teaches about morality and marriage and sexuality and all of
00:30:16.640
that. And who doesn't believe that, you know, he needs to have a compelling desire to share the
00:30:22.440
gospel would also be a part of an organization that wants to infiltrate the technological world,
00:30:27.940
Silicon Valley, with biblical truth, with the truth of the gospel. According to the Daily Mail,
00:30:35.660
speaking of his personal life, Thiel has generally been pretty private about it. He is married. We say
00:30:42.460
quote unquote married. We use the scare quotes because God defines marriage and he defines it
00:30:47.220
positively one way and one way only. And that is between one man and one woman for life. So he is
00:30:54.440
in a union with Matt Dan Zeeson. And they had a ceremony in October 2017. They have two young
00:31:05.540
daughters born via surrogate. And just a reminder, adoption redeems a broken situation. But surrogacy
00:31:14.380
creates a broken situation, taking a child away not only from their biological mother, but also from the
00:31:22.320
only woman they've ever known, which is the woman who gestated them. And to rob a child of their
00:31:29.040
mother is cruel. Children have a right to a mother and a father. And the fact that it is legal and that
00:31:37.940
it is celebrated to take a child from their mom, when we know the physiological importance of skin to
00:31:45.280
skin and that bonding and knowing who your parents are, if at all possible, just because you have the
00:31:51.860
money and the power to do it, it is so cruel. A reminder that puppies and kittens are required
00:31:58.720
to stay with their mothers for at least six weeks after birth. Yet with babies that are procured via
00:32:05.580
surrogacy, we rip them away from both their mother and the woman who carried them moments after birth.
00:32:12.540
And again, it is different from adoption. Not always the effect is different than adoption, but
00:32:17.120
the intent is different than adoption because adoption redeems an already broken situation.
00:32:22.980
Surrogacy creates that broken situation. At the 2016 Republican National Convention,
00:32:29.520
Teal said, I am proud to be gay. I am proud to be a Republican, but most of all, I am proud to be
00:32:35.780
an American. And there's some also like messy details of his personal life that we won't get into
00:32:44.220
because it's not relevant for those of us who are Christian, who believe that God's word is good,
00:32:49.300
that his commands are good, that God wants people to flourish, that he loves us. And so he created
00:32:55.000
marriage for our good and for the good of children. We already know that this is someone who is
00:33:01.880
unfortunately in many ways wayward, that he has not fully believed in the gospel and allowed it to
00:33:08.720
manifest in his life because Christ is not leading his life. I can be thankful for some of the
00:33:14.740
contributions he's made to really good campaigns and the different things that he said that happened
00:33:21.460
to be true and also realize that, okay, this is someone who desperately needs the truth of the gospel
00:33:27.960
to permeate his heart and his life. And we really see this manifest itself, not just in his personal
00:33:35.480
choices, but also in his beliefs about something called transhumanism. So he did this Interesting
00:33:42.480
Times interview with Ross Douthat. Ross Douthat is, I would say, pretty conservative, not as conservative
00:33:49.740
as me, but he's a more traditional and conservative Catholic. And he interviewed Peter Thiel. And I just
00:33:56.940
want to say like Ross Douthat is doing a great job. I have found his interviews to be really, really
00:34:02.920
interesting. And I love the way that he pushes back on people, including how he pushed back on me
00:34:07.120
in our interview. So Thiel characterizes transhumanism in this interview as the pursuit
00:34:13.160
of radical transformation, where your human natural body gets transformed into an immortal body.
00:34:18.020
Wait, that sounds so familiar. That sounds like the biblical concept of the bodily resurrection that
00:34:23.660
all believers will take part in one day that we get to throw off our natural body and we put on this
00:34:31.420
immortal body which will live forever. And it sounds to me, though, that Peter Thiel thinks that this is
00:34:37.640
possible outside of the power of Christ and is actually possible through things like cryonics. So
00:34:43.540
freezing your body or your head for future revival in uploading consciousness to a computer, I guess,
00:34:51.200
to like re-download one day into someone's body. So at its core, transhumanism is kind of an
00:34:58.400
intellectual or cultural movement that advocates for using technology and science to enhance the
00:35:03.040
human condition like living longer, combating aging, incorporating robotics. What do we always
00:35:09.500
say about technology? When technology takes us from what is natural to what is possible, Christians have
00:35:16.760
the responsibility to ask, but is this moral? Is this ethical? And most of all, is this biblical?
00:35:23.240
And when it comes to messing with either the creation of life through things like IVF, sperm and egg
00:35:30.080
selling, surrogacy, and the curtailing of death, then we have a lot of questions to ask. It's not
00:35:38.660
always a no. Technology is not always a no. Sometimes the answer is yes, this is moral, ethical, and this
00:35:45.720
is biblical. But a lot of times when you try to play God, both in the creation of life and trying to
00:35:53.820
completely defeat the power of the curse that was set upon us through Adam and Eve in the garden,
00:36:02.200
then, okay, we've got to talk about some things, right? So here's what he said to Ross Duthat about
00:36:10.900
not just transhumanism, but this set it up. Should the human race even survive? Here's that one.
00:36:20.400
You would prefer the human race to endure, right? You're hesitating. Yes? I don't know. I would.
00:36:29.540
I would. This is a long hesitation. There's so many questions. Should the human race survive?
00:36:37.480
Yes. But I also would like us to radically solve these problems. And so, you know, it's always,
00:36:52.580
I don't know, you know, yeah, transhumanism is this, you know, the ideal was this radical
00:37:02.300
transformation where your human natural body gets transformed into an immortal body.
00:37:11.260
Bria, I'm thinking about so many perspectives right now. I've been the interviewee. I've been
00:37:16.040
the interviewer. And while I haven't technically been the producer, I can imagine what the producer
00:37:21.440
is thinking. And I can also imagine, I don't think Peter Thiel has a publicist, but like what his
00:37:27.280
publicist is doing. So as the interviewer, I'm like, this is an amazing moment. I cannot, I'm like,
00:37:34.780
clip, clip, clip, clip. I'm so like, no, I loved the hesitation if I were an interviewer because,
00:37:41.840
wow, I can't believe I got this on tape. This is a huge newsworthy moment, which is, I'm guessing,
00:37:47.440
what you would be thinking as a producer. Same.
00:37:49.440
Like, oh my gosh, you're like sending me Slack messages. That's what I do when I don't have time
00:37:56.800
to say anything. And things like that don't typically happen. But wow. And then as the
00:38:03.220
producer, that's what you're thinking. And then as Peter Thiel's publicist, you're like, yes, yes.
00:38:08.940
The answer is yes. Just yes. Yep. Just yes. That's it. You want the human race to survive.
00:38:14.440
Yes. And then, and then when he says, but no, no, Peter, no, no, no. And did it? Yes. Pause,
00:38:22.800
period. Yeah, that was quite the moment. So he doesn't really know if the human race should
00:38:31.680
persist. That is very troubling for me. That's very troubling. And then that he says, yes, but let's
00:38:38.860
solve these problems via transhumanism. I'm worried. Okay. Let me take a pause and tell you
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Okay, so let's talk about transhumanism, like what he really believes about that, trying to curtail
00:40:11.740
death altogether, okay? Not just alleviate suffering, not just heal sickness, which I do think is an
00:40:17.880
extension of the Christian purpose, by the way, but to try to eliminate death altogether by curtailing
00:40:26.080
this natural process of human expiration that we have inherited because of our sin in Adam.
00:40:34.380
The trans people in a sexual context, or I don't know, transvestite, is someone who changes their
00:40:40.800
clothes and cross-dresses, and a transsexual is someone where you change your, I don't know,
00:40:46.420
penis into a vagina, and we can then debate how well those surgeries work. But we want more
00:40:52.200
transformation than that. The critique is not that it's weird and unnatural. It's, man, it's so
00:40:57.420
pathetically little. And, okay, we want more than cross-dressing or changing your sex organs. We want
00:41:03.400
you to be able to change your heart and change your mind and change your whole, your whole body?
00:41:11.040
No, we don't. We do not want that. It's too far. Science, I mean, this is, I mean, Silicon Valley, I feel
00:41:19.900
like in so many ways, is the Tower of Babel. It is, in so many different ways. In so many different ways, it is
00:41:27.040
human beings trying to build their way to God and trying to be God. And we know that God didn't like that
00:41:33.800
because he scattered them and he confused all of their languages. And actually, I think that there is a portion
00:41:40.760
of like the H-1B debate in Silicon Valley that is relevant to that story. But also here, it is a form of
00:41:48.400
self-idolatry. And it is not trusting in and hoping in the glory that we are promised in Christ,
00:41:57.040
but we are trying to attain that here. It's very much like the mentality that I see from progressives
00:42:04.440
who confuse like what the kingdom of heaven actually is. They believe that it is ending all of their version
00:42:13.280
of oppression or their idea of inequality here on earth. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to alleviate the
00:42:19.620
suffering from true oppression because we should, but their belief is that there is not a future
00:42:26.300
heaven that we are going toward, but that we can actually politically create some kind of utopia
00:42:33.420
here on earth where no person ever has more than another person and everyone is liberated in all
00:42:40.240
systems and institutions and, you know, all order and hierarchy is eliminated. That is the progressive
00:42:49.900
idea of bringing the kingdom of heaven here on earth through social justice and political means.
00:42:55.360
And this is almost like a progressive technological version of that, that we can bring the kingdom
00:43:00.600
of heaven here on earth through technology, which brings us into what he actually thinks. If that is,
00:43:06.660
if that is a correct assessment, which is just my opinion of what he believes, then that informs what he
00:43:15.780
means when he says the Antichrist, when he is conducting these seminars on what the Antichrist
00:43:22.580
is. According to the New York Times, because he describes this in this interview with Ross Douthat,
00:43:29.800
and I read the whole transcript. I mean, he is brilliant. He is a very, very smart person. So clearly he's thought
00:43:36.920
a lot about this, but I do find it from a Christian perspective to be very confusing considering what we
00:43:43.020
know biblically about the actual Antichrist. So Thiel describes the Antichrist as a potential
00:43:48.640
systemic threat rather than a literal individual, suggesting it could manifest as a one world
00:43:53.540
totalitarian state that promises peace and safety, but suppresses freedom. So he actually cites the
00:44:00.520
Bible in supporting this idea. He connects it to 1 Thessalonians 5.3. He argues that the Antichrist's
00:44:07.360
appeal lies in exploiting fears of catastrophic technologies to justify centralized control.
00:44:13.880
The way the Antichrist would take over the world is you talk about Armageddon nonstop. You talk about
00:44:19.340
existential risk nonstop, and this is what you need to regulate. So you could see if that is the case,
00:44:27.100
how that would have manifested itself many times over the years. No, it's, you know, nuclear weapons are
00:44:34.340
going to be like Armageddon. You need to make sure that I have all of the power. No, this over here is
00:44:40.900
going to be the Armageddon. Climate change is going to be the Armageddon. You need to make sure that I
00:44:45.860
have all the power to stop that. But he is arguing that the Antichrist will be someone who actually
00:44:51.980
pushes for technological stagnation. I think he believes that a lot of people wrongly believe
00:44:58.220
that the Antichrist will be someone who uses AI and uses technology to gain all of this power,
00:45:07.540
this Antichrist power to set himself against governments, to set himself against God himself.
00:45:12.360
He is arguing that it will actually be the opposite. Now, what is not completely clear to me
00:45:18.820
is whether or not Peter Thiel believes in an actual man of lawlessness that the Bible describes,
00:45:25.560
which we'll get into in a second, or if he believes the Antichrist is kind of a metaphor
00:45:31.160
for technological stagnation. And maybe he describes that clearly somewhere. It is not
00:45:38.180
completely clear to me. So in his interview, he expresses concern that modern technology,
00:45:44.080
particularly artificial intelligence and global data systems, could provide the infrastructure
00:45:47.660
for what the Bible calls the Antichrist. But again, not how we would think of it,
00:45:52.180
but someone who sets himself against those things. Now, it is worth noting that as we're
00:45:58.820
trying to describe his beliefs, that his company, Palantir, Palantir, right? There's so many different
00:46:06.160
ways that it looks like you could pronounce that develops those kinds of technologies, large scale
00:46:10.280
software systems used by government agencies and other entities to assist in their operations.
00:46:15.940
And so, Ross, the interviewer here is like, well, aren't you just kind of trying to make it seem
00:46:23.060
like anyone who opposes what you're trying to do is part of the Antichrist? Here's top three.
00:46:30.820
You're an investor in AI. You're deeply invested in Palantir, in military technology,
00:46:38.780
in technologies of surveillance, in technologies of warfare and so on, right?
00:46:43.520
And it just seems to me that when you tell me a story about the Antichrist coming to power
00:46:51.160
and using the fear of technological change to sort of impose order on the world,
00:46:57.060
I feel like that Antichrist would maybe be using the tools that you were building, right?
00:47:04.340
Look, there are all these different scenarios. I obviously don't think that that's what I'm doing.
00:47:10.060
Okay. So I thought that that was a fair question by Ross, and obviously Peter Thiel doesn't see it
00:47:17.740
that way, but I think that that's, you know, that's fair to ask. Thiel says that the Antichrist
00:47:22.120
would gain power by exploiting the constant fear of apocalyptic scenarios that could be brought to
00:47:27.720
fruition by things like AI. He says, the way the Antichrist would take over the world is you talk
00:47:33.160
Armageddon nonstop, you talk about existential risk nonstop, and this is what you need to regulate.
00:47:40.760
So, I mean, it is interesting and maybe questionable that someone who makes a lot of money through
00:47:47.020
technology would say that stopping technological innovation is actually going to, you know,
00:47:53.620
usher in the Antichrist or be a part of the Antichrist plan to take over the world. Again,
00:47:59.900
whether he thinks that literally, theologically, or whether he just thinks that's a metaphor for,
00:48:04.980
like, environmentalism taking over because he really doesn't like Greta Thunberg is kind of
00:48:10.260
unclear. So what are these seminars about? Like, what is he telling these bigwigs and Silicon Valley
00:48:17.500
who are creating the technology that is impacting so much of our lives? So he's got this four-part
00:48:24.780
lecture series called The Antichrist that explores the biblical figure of the Antichrist through the
00:48:30.420
lens of science, theology, history, politics, and literature. I, like, would actually love to attend
00:48:35.820
these. I think it would be really interesting. So here's all we really know about it. This is the
00:48:42.100
event page. You are warmly invited to a series of four lectures. Peter is a technology entrepreneur and
00:48:47.440
investor. How his Christian faith he's going to talk about informs his understanding of the world.
00:48:52.360
His remarks will be anchored in science and technology, will comment on theology, history,
00:48:56.640
etc. Religious thinkers upon whom Peter will draw include René Girard, Francis Bacon, Jonathan Swift,
00:49:03.140
Carl Schmitt, and John Henry Newman. These lectures are off the record. Carl Schmitt was a Nazi and
00:49:14.500
provided legal support for the regime. Thiel references his friend-enemy political theory,
00:49:20.100
the concept of the political 1927, which defines politics as fundamentally based on the distinction
00:49:26.480
between friends and enemies and argued that this binary is the essence of political life. I'm not
00:49:31.020
saying, this is just noted here in my notes, I'm not trying to say that Peter Thiel is a Nazi or that
00:49:36.500
he's sympathetic to Nazis. I haven't seen anything in my research that supports that, but it is an
00:49:41.880
interesting thing to include in the event page. Jonathan Swift, the satirical writer, and then
00:49:50.420
René Girard was someone who really apparently influenced Peter Thiel. He talked a lot about
00:49:56.520
mimetic desire, which we've actually talked about on this show before, that our desires are actually
00:50:01.400
shaped by what other people want. And that's interesting. We don't have time to get into that
00:50:07.280
whole philosophical theory right now. And also, he apparently taught that Jesus was like the end of
00:50:15.240
the need for mimetic desire, if I am understanding that correctly, which again, interesting philosophy,
00:50:22.580
but don't have time to explore that all today. But we will link the past episode that we've done
00:50:26.940
talking about mimetic desire. So these are some of the people that apparently have influenced him,
00:50:33.700
what he thinks about the Antichrist, what he thinks about theology. This is off the record,
00:50:38.060
so I'm not sure if much will come out of this. I just think it's interesting that Silicon Valley,
00:50:42.620
which a lot of people believe is like a co-capital of godlessness with maybe Hollywood and DC
00:50:48.660
sharing that title, that they are talking even about, like even conceptually about something like
00:50:56.160
the Antichrist, which is not just a Christian belief, but almost a niche Christian belief. Not that only
00:51:02.040
some Christians believe it, but it's not something that we typically talk about when we are talking
00:51:06.840
about like what Christianity is, because it's kind of scary, you know, like it's a big thing. So what
00:51:13.680
does the Bible actually say about the Antichrist? Is it just a metaphor? Is it even possible what Peter
00:51:18.720
Thiel is talking about? Well, let's just go see what the Word of God actually has to say about this
00:51:22.980
Antichrist who is also described as a man of lawlessness. We'll get to that in just a second.
00:51:27.740
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I love Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem. That is a resource I recommend, and it's a little bit of
00:52:45.420
an investment, but you can keep it on hand forever and always reference it. What does the Bible have to
00:52:50.440
say about this? What are the different theories about the end times? There's so much in it that
00:52:55.580
is really, really helpful, and you can see all different kinds of Christian perspectives on
00:53:00.380
theological issues. So I just really encourage you to buy Systematic Theology if you don't already
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have it. So this is Wayne Grudem's definition of the Antichrist based on what we see in Scripture.
00:53:11.440
The man of lawlessness who will appear prior to the second coming of Christ. So Christ already came
00:53:17.480
once as a baby and then died as a man, and he will come back again, this time not as a baby but as a
00:53:22.980
warrior, and will cause great suffering and persecution. This man of lawlessness only to be
00:53:28.380
destroyed by Jesus. The term is also used to describe other figures who embody such an opposition to
00:53:34.500
Christ and are precursors of the final Antichrist. So John Piper has an interesting resource on this
00:53:42.000
on DesiringGod.com. That is his ministry where he talks about the kingdom of God being in the future
00:53:48.980
but already here. So in the present but not yet. Already and not yet. And that is also true
00:53:54.380
of the Antichrist. The Antichrist is a future man, a man of lawlessness that is not here yet. And yet the
00:54:02.040
spirit of the Antichrist and multiple Antichrists have already come and are still arriving. So here's what
00:54:09.880
the Bible has to say in 1 John. 1 John 2, 18. Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard
00:54:16.680
that the Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come. Therefore, we know that it is the last
00:54:22.360
hour. 1 John 2, 22. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist,
00:54:30.120
he who denies the Father and the Son. Okay, so the Antichrist and people who deny the Father and the Son
00:54:37.000
have already existed for a long time. 1 John 4, 3. And every spirit that does not confess Jesus
00:54:42.300
is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard was coming and now
00:54:48.620
is in the world already. 2 John 1, 7. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who
00:54:54.900
do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and is the Antichrist.
00:55:01.760
So in 2013, John Piper said this. So both Paul and John picture a final time just before the
00:55:08.820
second coming when a person of great demonic power will rise up in rebellion against the true Christ
00:55:13.820
and his people. In the meantime, the satanic characteristics of that figure are always
00:55:18.560
manifesting themselves in the world with greater or lesser dominance. The Antichrist is coming and he
00:55:23.520
is here already. So this is that future man of lawlessness, 2 Thessalonians 2, 3 through 4.
00:55:31.040
Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first.
00:55:36.220
So that's the falling away of people who profess to be believers. And the man of lawlessness is
00:55:41.760
revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called God or object
00:55:48.080
of worship, so that he takes a seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Okay, so a lot
00:55:55.280
of people are going to follow him. A lot of people are going to believe him. So the debate is,
00:55:58.980
and that Peter Thiel is waiting into, is what is the means by which? What is the means by which
00:56:04.100
this person will be able to convince so many people that he is powerful and needs to have
00:56:08.540
all this authority? 2 Thessalonians 2, 6 through 10 says that,
00:56:13.420
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth
00:56:17.720
and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. So that means that this has not happened
00:56:23.640
yet. Because we know that any people who people thought were the Antichrist, like Hitler, for
00:56:29.740
example, that the Lord Jesus has not come back and killed him with the breath of his mouth and has
00:56:36.380
brought him to nothing. There is a lot of other commentary on who this man of lawlessness will
00:56:44.580
be. Obviously, he will be lawless. He will be chaotic. He won't follow the law. And yet he will use
00:56:49.740
whatever powers of persuasion he has. And of course, the spirit of apostasy will be upon a lot of people
00:56:55.820
to say, you need to trust me and that I am, you know, leading this kind of one world order. And it
00:57:02.500
will work until Jesus defeats him once and for all. Now, obviously, there's the debate post-millennial,
00:57:08.580
pre-millennial. Just a reminder, I am pre-mil, post-trib. If you want more about that, again,
00:57:13.740
you can read Wayne Grudem's explanation on all of the different perspectives on eschatology. And
00:57:20.440
we've done episodes on it in the past, most recently on my Israel episode. But we all agree
00:57:26.360
that there will be this kind of man of lawlessness. So is it possible that this person uses the threat
00:57:32.760
and the fear of AI-powered Armageddon to gain his power? I would say that is possible. Is it also
00:57:40.760
possible that he uses fear, other kinds of existential fear to gain power? Yes, it is possible.
00:57:49.340
But is he some kind of metaphor for technological stagnation or like climate change or whatever it
00:57:56.740
is? No, it is an actual man. He will actually convince lots of people to follow him. I believe
00:58:03.240
that Christians who are Christians alive at that time will live through the tribulation.
00:58:10.760
And that we could see the man of lawlessness. It really depends upon what your eschatology is
00:58:15.840
there. And so I do think it's interesting that Peter Thiel is talking about something like this.
00:58:20.920
I would recommend that he and every single person get right with God, that we make sure that we are
00:58:27.840
friends with God, that we are enemies of the world, friends of God. That doesn't mean we don't love the
00:58:32.720
world and preach to the world because of course we should, but that we are right with God, that we are
00:58:36.820
walking with him in holiness and impurity by the power of the Holy Spirit. Because if the Holy Spirit
00:58:43.600
is in our life, he will not let us live perpetually in sin. We will hate our sin and we will loathe the
00:58:50.120
desires of our flesh and we will deny the things that feel good to us, but God calls unholy. And so
00:58:55.680
that day is actually coming where we will stand before God. And the only right answer will be Christ
00:59:03.400
covering us by his blood. And while we do not earn salvation by being good or following rules,
00:59:11.440
following Christ is evidence of our salvation and the justification that he has given us by grace
00:59:16.840
through faith. So that would be my encouragement to everyone attending these lectures, which I'm sure
00:59:21.020
will actually be very interesting. All right, I've got one more sponsor before we head out,
00:59:26.200
and that is Every Life. Y'all love Every Life so much. I have so many pro-life sponsors and I just
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they are. They're amazing. Go to everylife.com. Use code Allie10 for 10% off your order. That's
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everylife.com, code Allie10. All right. Well, we're already over an hour, Bree. Should I do my heart pill to
01:00:22.360
swallow? You can always save it. Keep people on their toes. I could keep people on their toes,
01:00:28.680
or I could just give them a little heart pill to swallow. That has nothing to do with what we
01:00:33.780
talked about today. Okay. I just want to play this video and then I'll give you my reaction to it.
01:00:58.680
Okay. So it's not really clear what's happening here. If this is this woman's dog or if this is a
01:01:09.860
random stray dog, but it's leading me to say this, that there are very few places in public where dogs
01:01:17.780
should be allowed and a grocery store is not one of them. Now, I know your rat terrier is perfectly
01:01:24.340
behaved than actually helps you pick out your cauliflower. I know that your Border Collie or
01:01:30.060
your Golden Retriever is the exception to the rule, but the fact of the matter is no matter how cute or
01:01:35.420
clean or well-behaved your dog is, it is still a dog in most public spaces are for humans and humans have
01:01:42.520
allergies. Humans have fears. Humans should be free to, should have a right to be able to navigate
01:01:49.360
most public spaces just around other humans. And we shouldn't be living in a zoo. I actually
01:01:57.100
think it is a sign of the de-civilization of society that we have opened up so much of our
01:02:04.920
public world to dogs and other animals that eat feces. Like we are a human society and we should
01:02:15.700
create spaces that keep humans as safe and as healthy as humanly possible. The vast majority
01:02:22.220
of dogs don't need to go on planes. I'm not saying I don't like dogs. I really love dogs,
01:02:27.720
but there's a time and a place for them and your dog will be totally fine at home. And if your dog
01:02:32.100
is not okay at home while you're going to the grocery store, you need to train your dog. You need
01:02:36.860
to hire someone to watch your dog, but forcing other people to pretend that your dog is a human
01:02:42.140
or be around your dog, especially your pit bull when they don't want to be is unkind. It's not
01:02:49.960
conscientious. And I don't think that we should be bending all of these rules and putting decorum
01:02:57.240
out the window just in favor of canines who are not made in the image of God. They're precious and
01:03:02.840
cute, but they are not image bearers of God and image bearers of God and our needs and our well-being
01:03:07.160
and our safety and security and our comfort comes first. All right. That's my hard pill to swallow
01:03:13.020
for today. And on that note, we'll be back here on Wednesday.