Ep 1246 ｜ Unbiblical Churches： A Pastor’s List of Red Flags ｜ Todd Wagner
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 1 minute
Words per Minute
199.6984
Summary
Todd Wagner is a former pastor and author. He founded a very large and influential church in Dallas, and now he runs a couple ministries. One of them is The 1613 Project, and he is equipping pastors and believers to not only be sober-minded but match their faith with action.
Transcript
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He founded a very large and influential church in Dallas, and now he runs a couple ministries.
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One of them is the 1613 Project, and he is equipping pastors and believers to not only
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be sober-minded, but match their faith with action.
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And gosh, this episode is jam-packed with wisdom.
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Wisdom for how to know if you are in a biblical church, why to leave your church, how to bring
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concerns to your pastor in a way that is actually effective.
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And he has a word for parents, especially in this moment as a father of six and a grandfather
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You are going to be so equipped and encouraged by our conversation today.
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Todd, thanks so much for taking the time to join me.
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For those who may not know, can you tell us who you are and what you do?
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So I started a little church called Watermark years ago and was there for about 23 years
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and felt like that I needed to transition away from there in order to be able to continue
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to be who I really was, and so now I'm involved just to continue doing everything I was doing
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when I was leading that church and its campuses and now just doing it in a way that's probably
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a little less public, but we grabbed a ministry name called Unhindered and then doing something
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called the 1613 Project, which probably will relate to some of the stuff we talk about.
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But what I love about the name Unhindered, right, it's the very last word in the book of
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Which it says, kind of ironically, when I left, I didn't have a place.
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I went from having a massive place with lots of help to kind of being by myself, and Acts
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ends by saying, for two years, Paul received people in rented quarters, welcoming all who
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came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teachings concerning the Lord Jesus, and
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the word of God went forward with all openness, unhindered.
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And I thought to myself, that's exactly who I am.
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Whatever I do, I want to be associated with the word of God because that's what's going
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Grass withers, flower fades, but the word of God will last forever.
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Why don't I keep myself attached to that, and then we'll let God do whatever he wants
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A lot of people are talking about revival right now, talking about an awakening in the
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I don't think any of us could have estimated just how much that would rock people who didn't
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not know Charlie to their core on a global scale.
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And a lot of people in my life and just in public have said, wow, I knew Charlie was a
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I didn't know that he was preaching the gospel and he was an apologist and an evangelist and
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But not everyone did, and it's causing a lot of people to say, what am I doing with
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And I mean, we both agree what happened was horrible.
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I mean, not just for Erica and the kids, but really for our country.
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And for all those college kids and people that were paying attention to who Charlie was.
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But what I love too, you know, I first, Charlie kind of came across my radar when he was committed
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Maybe even some would say Christless conservatism early on.
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He definitely grew a lot in his evangelism and in his faith the last five years.
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Where he just said, you know, listen, I'm going to be, I'm a follower of Christ first.
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And maybe my conservatism flows out of that, right?
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Like we said, I think he really, he became absolutely unapologetic about that, which I
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think was the most beautiful part of what he did, you know?
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And I think a lot of people paid attention to that.
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I had so many people text me, you know, after this weekend, which, you know, when that, they
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were just like, I never thought I would see so many of our nation's leaders and so many
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people, you know, speak the way they did about Christ, not about God, not general God.
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You know, and Charlie's the one that set him up for that in a lot of different ways.
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I go, hey, you know, have you been, you know, first Timothy two, one and two works, right?
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Pray for kings and those that are in authority.
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And it's all part of what God's doing, you know?
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And I don't, you know, it remains to be seen what he's really up to, Alibeth.
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One of the things I tweeted out right after that, I go, this is exactly the kind of thing
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God would do before he's about to do something else.
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Well, what I mean by that is, okay, like if you read the book of Revelation, okay?
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And I'm not saying, I mean, we've been in the last time since Paul wrote all of his
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You know, date setters, you know, be really careful.
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In fact, last night I had dinner with a bunch of my kids and they even said, yeah, this
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guy from Rwanda is getting a lot of attention because he thinks the rapture is going to
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I go, well, he'll get a lot of attention for the next 48 hours.
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And then I hope people expose him for what he is.
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You know, if he wants to say he missed or, so I, you know, somebody's going to be right
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But back to the question, what I meant by that was in the book of Revelation, okay, when
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you look at it closely, it talks about the fact, well, there's seals, trumpets, and bulls.
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The seven trumpets are in the seventh seal and the seven bulls are in the seventh trumpet,
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But what's interesting is that God always pauses.
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He pauses after the sixth seal before he kind of gets, you know, going again with more
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And then before the seventh trumpet, there's a pause.
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And it's like, God's like, what are you guys going to do with this?
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And then interestingly enough, when you get to the seventh bull, or actually the seventh
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trumpet, which is all seven bulls, and it's really Revelation 16 is where you're
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going to get to the seven bulls, there is no pause.
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And what you see is the world responds just like Egypt responded during the plagues of
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So, I mean, if people want to go look, six of the seven bulls, all right, line up with
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some of the plagues that happened in Egypt, okay?
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And what Pharaoh did, he just kept hardening his heart, hardening his heart.
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And then God hardened his heart as an illustration of the necessity of the grace of God and the
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But at certain points, you know, Proverbs 29 says, he who hardens his neck after much
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So what I said, okay, was, hey, listen, guys, pay attention, right?
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You know, God is not slow as some count slowness, but he is patient towards you, not wishing
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for any to perish, but I'll come to eternal life.
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I don't know if the world's going to end, but man, your world's going to end one day.
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And that's why I just tell people all the time, I mean, listen, God does offer forgiveness
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He doesn't promise tomorrow to your procrastination, right?
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And what a gift our country, I mean, to sit and listen to things that were like eternally
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important, ultimately important, and then also for a lot of folks to see, hey, a lot
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of people really have been doing something with this idea, right?
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Too many people, Allie Beth, go to church, and frankly, they go to unbiblical churches.
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There's a world of difference between attending a service and tending to the Lord's business.
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And what was awesome, okay, is I think people realize, man, Charlie was tending to the Lord's
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I mean, that's what I, I mean, periodically I'll text you, and I'm just like, hey, I'm so proud
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of you because I, because, you know, we'll talk about issues.
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We don't have to drag, we don't have to quote scripture every time we speak, right?
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You know, but you're not afraid of who you are.
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And who you are is a person who understands the kindness of God and the goodness of his
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word is somebody who's lovingly sharing that with others.
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I'm not going to love you more if you agree with me, but here we go.
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Okay, can we get more into what you said about unbiblical churches?
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A lot of people are trying to figure out, what is the test for my pastor?
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Because they understand being a pastor, you know, more than anyone, is hard.
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And they want to be gracious, and they want to be understanding with their pastor.
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But sometimes they might get the nagging feeling that, I don't know if my pastor is meeting this moment.
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I don't know if he's boldly proclaiming the word of God.
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So how should we think about our church leaders, and how do we decide, yes, I am in a church that is glorifying God?
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Because what's great is I don't have to make this up, right?
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So first of all, ask if you figure out what your pastor thinks the purpose of his church is.
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They'll probably say something, you know, maybe from Matthew 20, I go and make disciples.
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And disciples are not people that attend his services, right?
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One of the things I've said for a long time, Allie Beth, you know, was you've got to stop letting people rip you off.
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I mean, and most pastors, I really mean this, most pastors, even the one with good doctrinal statements, they cut a deal with their people.
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You know, you give me enough money to keep the lights on.
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And we'll both tell each other we're doing what God wants us to do.
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It's like, don't get arrested for child pornography this week.
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You know, don't do anything really embarrassing us, but just show up.
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You know, be here, serve a little bit in children's ministry.
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And I'm just like, listen, man, the Bible says, Jesus said that his church, right, that the gates of hell won't stand against it.
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We don't huddle up and try and protect ourself.
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So if your church isn't forward moving towards bringing light to darkness and calling those who are in darkness out of darkness into his marvelous light.
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And frankly, when I say your church, if you're not part of the family of God that's doing that, too many pastors are frankly just saying, hey, we'll do the ministry.
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So Ephesians says this in chapter four, right, that God gives some as apostles, some as prophets, right, some as evangelists, some as pastors, some as teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of service.
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And I'm telling you, man, a lot of people will go to churches and just talk about, oh, he's an exegetical pastor, which is good, right?
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He preaches really well and his doctrines sound.
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I'm like, that's great, but does he move you to action, right?
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Don't be doers of the word, not merely hearers who delude themselves.
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If there's not some form of accountability, some expectation, some opportunity for you to use your gifts, again, not just in running the weekly meeting.
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That verse that we always use, you know, don't forsake your seminogethers as the habit of some, there's nothing in there that talks about one day a week, right?
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That same book says in Hebrews 3, encourage each other day after day as long as it's called today so we'll be hardened by deceitfulness of sin.
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And deceitfulness of sin is that it makes a life that is not faithful look faithful or attractive, right?
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So the worries of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, the concern for many things, this is what chokes out faithfulness.
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So if you are a part of a church where your pastor is not expecting you to identify your gifts, this is 1 Peter 4, 10.
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As each one of you has received a gift, be good stewards in employing it and serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
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So, you know, I'm quoting a ton of scripture here because I don't want you to hear Todd Wagner's opinion, right?
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I really mean this a lot, Beth, and I'll share one illustration, okay?
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About four years ago, five years ago, I was driving back, I was just outside of Canton, and I was merging onto the highway, and I look over and I see this hawk.
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It's about a kid that ran away, and he found this pet falcon.
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He actually went up and stole it from a nest, and then he raised this falcon to hunt with him, and, you know, it's part of the book, okay?
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And I always thought, as a kid, man, it'd be amazing to have, like, a bird of prey as a pet.
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Like, you don't ever see a hawk sitting on the ground.
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And I just, I mean, I was, like, 30, I stopped.
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And I backed up, and I had a towel, and, I mean, I'm going to show you a picture, because it was crazy.
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And I threw this towel around it, and I picked it up, and I was, like, this is unbelievable, you know, because I've got a hawk, and I put it in my car, right?
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And I had somebody else drive, and I'm, like, oh, I've got my hawk.
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First of all, then I was, like, and I figured what happened is that thing had swung, you know, probably had swooped down to find something, probably hit the side of a semi.
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But the little I know is breaking federal law, right, by possessing.
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But my point is, is I thought to myself, look, this is, I was making it about me.
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This thing is supposed to be, you know, I immediately thought how I can walk around like a pirate with a parrot, like a hawk.
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You think having a puppy at a dog park will get you attention.
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You know, having a hawk on your shoulder, right?
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And, of course, that's not what I'm supposed to do.
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And so, I mean, obviously, I called a game warden and said, hey, look, I got this hawk.
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There's a wildlife refugee center right there up I-20.
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You know, and our job was to nurse that hawk, right, make that hawk healthy and release it so it could do what it could do.
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It's not like, you know, I wouldn't, my point is, a lot of pastors, you know, Allie Beth, like, they love when people like you go to their church.
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As opposed to saying, no, some of you guys, you need to realize you're supposed to, you know, my job is to equip you and to help you be what God wants you to be.
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I tell folks all the time, and this is the last thing I'll say about this, I've actually got about 15 things.
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I'm actually preaching through this right now with a group of people who asked me to come.
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And I gave them 15 reasons why to leave a church.
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So I'm teaching the positive by illustrating the negative.
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And, you know, and I just said, man, if your church is collecting you and isn't calling you to greatness and doesn't see their job as setting you up so that one day when you stand before the Lord, you're going to hear, well done, good and faithful servant, you're in an unbiblical church.
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If your church isn't actively confronting the gates of hell and speaking out against hellish things, you're not in a biblical church because that's what Jesus says his church will do.
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It's not running nice meetings with good worship and even good teaching.
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But that teaching with effect, right, is supposed to produce something.
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You know, that was one of the things that marked, you know, I think my leadership at the church I founded was, you know, people were getting after it.
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Where we put the best performers on stage and you pay to support them.
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And I'm like, no, man, I used to use the phrase, we're a clown school, right?
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But you're going to figure out what it is to bring joy to the world.
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And frankly, if you're not, then I use this phrase, Allie Beth.
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I said, if you're here and you're not practicing the one another's scripture, if you're not abiding with Christ, if you're not, you know, connected to other believers in a small, intimate environment, you're not discovering, developing, and deploying your gifts, then you're not a regular attender.
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What Charlie did, I mean, listen, I think he was uniquely gifted.
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I didn't get to catch a lot of it, but you know who I did here was Larry Arnn.
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When Larry said, when Charlie came to him and said, what do I got to do?
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He, well, he basically told him that you need to go read.
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And Charlie would send him all of these certificates of completion of all of the courses he was
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And, and, and, and, you know, Charlie looked at him and said, what are you talking about?
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And he said like, look, you're going to have to say no to a lot of things so you can equip
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yourself because you don't know what you need to know.
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And then he said, next thing I knew, I got an email with a completed certificate of the
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And then he is one of what he say, six or seven people that's ever done all 31 of them.
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And I'm, listen, I talked to my kids about that.
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Literally, I just said, look, man, he's not just, I think if people listen to Charlie debate
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or they listen to you here, Allie Beth, and they're like, oh, well, she's so gifted.
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I mean, you discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness.
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You surround yourself with people who spur you on and.
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And so it's not like, you know, you just were, you know, I was telling my kids this,
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this is why I was just saying that, look, man, you have a better chance of being Charlie
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You guys weren't born with 40 inch verticals, right?
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You know, and LeBron's done a good job taking care of his body and maybe increasing his vert
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a little bit, but he was uniquely physically gifted.
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And I think, listen, you know, all of us are given different amounts of grace and not
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every believer needs to be Charlie Kirk, but every believer needs to be great at what they
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And if you're in a church that is just with, okay, you attending and supporting what they're
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doing, you're in a non-biblical church, no matter how good the doctrine is.
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You know, when you were talking about how one of the things that you wanted to do when
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you led Watermark was spur people towards action, you know, I started going to Shoreline,
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which was the youth group at Watermark, probably sophomore, junior, senior year of high school.
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And that was really one of the first times that I, even though I definitely was a Christian
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at that point, but I was also in this time of really taking my faith more seriously for
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But going to Camp Barnabas, which is this camp in Missouri for kids and adults with special
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needs, for those of you out there who don't know that, that was such a life-changing moment
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for me and truly one of the first times that I was like, okay, this is what it tangibly
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day-to-day looks like to deny myself, take up my cross and follow Christ.
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Not that it wasn't all so fun and enjoyable because it's a great time, but it was such
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But, you know, sometimes you can go on a mission trip with your friends and you do a little
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work and you do a little vacation, but this was like day and night, truly trying to be
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the hands and feet of Jesus in a not glamorous way.
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So I think we usually went during wheelchair week, right?
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And I just want to like thank you for your leadership in that time because you're right
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because I saw exactly what you're talking about, that it was faith to action.
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However, when we read those hall of fame, faith heroes in Hebrews 11, by faith, they what?
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And I think that's really important for Christians to remember, especially in this moment.
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But I'm not going to believe that you have faith in that chair if you refuse to sit in it.
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So you look at all of Paul's books, like even let's just use Ephesians.
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It's the easiest one right now since we're already in it.
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The first half is like the word of God and then the work of people who believe the word
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of God or what you believe and then how you behave.
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So you get through the first three chapters and it's almost a 50-50 deal except for Romans.
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And then it's, I urge you therefore, by the mercy of God.
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So Romans has 11 chapters of that and then four of application.
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But Ephesians 1 through 3, this is what we believe.
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And then chapter 4, he says, therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, urge you to walk worthy
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And one of the things even we did, we wouldn't even let, like when we would send our people
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overseas, we would never use the term mission trip because why?
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It reinforces that what we do at Camp Barnabas or what we do in Africa or what we do in Mexico
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What we do here is we just live and wait for the next mission, right?
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And so the phrase I use all the time is, hey, life is a long-term mission trip and every
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week is a short-term mission opportunity or short, you know?
00:25:59.820
And so we would call those, when you would go to places like that, we'd call them discipleship
00:26:02.960
opportunities, discipleship trips, where you would just go and do what disciples do.
00:26:06.380
But I wanted people to think, you're on mission every day because the church is a mission.
00:26:12.460
And so as Watermark grew over the years, people would ask me, well, what's the mission
00:26:19.520
And we'd go, well, my gosh, what's the church budget?
00:26:21.580
I'd go, oh, I thought you just asked me that question, right?
00:26:25.060
Because the church, this is the thing, people, you got to understand, the church is a mission.
00:26:32.620
And so, Allie Beth, you are doing the work of an evangelist.
00:26:38.200
And it's not just sharing, you know, God is good, man is bad, Jesus died, you know, repent
00:26:50.380
And what you're trying to make the case for is, listen, God's good.
00:26:57.120
It's the one, it's the God of this world that's blinded the eyes of the non-believing, right?
00:27:07.160
I've loved the way you've just honored womanhood and honored motherhood, right?
00:27:20.960
So yeah, because you know, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.
00:27:34.920
If you are an entrepreneur, if you've got any kind of e-commerce business, you're selling
00:27:38.840
merchandise, you're selling art, whatever it is, you need to make sure that you've got a
00:27:43.420
And if you're a business owner, especially if you're like a mom and a business owner,
00:27:51.500
You need a service that is going to help you make it as easy and as simple and as effective
00:27:57.580
So you can just focus on creating your product and making money.
00:28:02.940
We use Shopify to sell our merchandise and they just make it so easy.
00:28:07.440
They even help with things like product description.
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It is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and 10% of all e-commerce in
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People use them because it's really easy to use and it works.
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So turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side.
00:28:28.620
Sign up for your $1 per month and start selling today at shopify.com slash Allie.
00:28:36.180
I think that you're the perfect person to answer this question that I've gotten so much.
00:28:45.840
We're talking about healthy churches and what churches should be and how pastors should lead.
00:28:52.740
Which is really hard to speak into for everyone's individual situation.
00:28:57.220
But if someone does have a concern about how their church is being led, you from a pastoral
00:29:02.100
perspective, what's the most effective way for a congregant to bring their concern to
00:29:09.900
So the Bible says, let me just again, I'll try and just help people because you don't
00:29:14.900
have to hear from Todd Wagner, but I think all of it says, clothe yourself with humility.
00:29:19.920
And, and so, and you know, each of us, it says, you younger men, be subject to your elders
00:29:24.500
and all of you clothe yourself with humility for God's opposed to the proud and gives grace
00:29:29.560
So first of all, you ought to know like something ought to stir you.
00:29:32.700
One of the things that I tell people all the time is like, like baptism is the very first
00:29:36.780
thing you should do if you're a believer, but I could convince you to get baptized.
00:29:40.600
What I really like is when people read their Bible and go, why am I not baptized?
00:29:47.440
And, and so that to me is usually when people, I go, you know, I think you get it, you know,
00:29:52.320
because you're reading the word of God and you do what it says.
00:29:57.700
And this is why I'm just telling you the church in America, Allie Beth, and I really do.
00:30:04.380
We have a problem with our pastors because it's, it's just good business to not ask too
00:30:10.640
Even the church I led since I've left, they've changed some purpose statements and, and,
00:30:14.120
and, and changed some of what we were doing and, you know, different leadership can do
00:30:18.500
But what I would just say is, is that you ought to know what God's calling you to be.
00:30:23.840
And then you should go with humility to your pastor and just say, Hey, how can I help?
00:30:27.500
Like, here's, here's some things I feel like I need to do and I, and that we should be doing
00:30:32.840
and, or tell me your view on how we're equipping the saints for the work of service.
00:30:36.880
Like not just supporting children's ministry, parking or greeting.
00:30:40.760
We need to do that for our weekly meeting, but the church is not a weekly meeting.
00:30:45.280
I, I, I would, I would say almost every week, man, that we're here for two reasons.
00:30:50.440
Like when, when we built the building, finally, you know, the people that built it put worship
00:30:59.220
And I said, I had the little, the, the WRSHIP up there in my hands.
00:31:03.680
I said, guys, this has came off this room because this is not the worship center.
00:31:09.780
You're, it's why I would end services with like, man, have a great week of worship.
00:31:17.840
We got in here to do two things to, to remind, to remember the grace of God, how great our God
00:31:26.080
It constantly is getting us to believe that, you know, we should manage our spirituality, but
00:31:32.900
really kind of give ourself to personal peace and affluence to use Frank's, Frank Schaeffer's
00:31:39.900
And I'm like, no, we got to remind ourself that this is truth.
00:31:42.740
And what's real is the world that's coming and that we are aliens and strangers and that
00:31:49.660
And then so to remember God and then to remind ourself what we do, that we, each of us is
00:31:57.900
One of the things that was so amazing about what Charlie was doing, right.
00:32:05.500
Tell, tell everybody what Frank said, just so people can hear from another voice in mind
00:32:09.200
Well, you know, he said, he said so much that was good, but where he got the most animated
00:32:13.180
and I just in the room, you could just feel it.
00:32:17.680
He said it a lot more clearly than I am, but he said, you know, Charlie is not in heaven
00:32:25.960
He was not in heaven because he shared the gospel with all of these people.
00:32:29.160
He's not in heaven because he sacrificed himself for his savior.
00:32:32.760
Charlie Kirk is in heaven because his savior sacrificed himself for Charlie.
00:32:38.960
And so Charlie, you know, Charlie wasn't there.
00:32:41.220
What's great is that he was saved by grace through faith.
00:32:44.340
And not of ourselves as a gift from God, not as a result of works so that no man should
00:32:48.280
But then verse 10, but Charlie was God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
00:32:55.620
God prepared beforehand that he should walk in them.
00:32:58.000
And what I did, you know, in fact, my wife and I had a little bit of a, um, I was talking
00:33:03.320
to one of my, my kids and they were shook like everybody was.
00:33:08.120
And I think part of what reason we were shook is you without wanting to see anything, we just
00:33:13.640
We turned it on and we saw horrible things and things that we're not supposed to see.
00:33:19.660
But my kids just go and they said, I'm just so sad.
00:33:31.340
And I go, well, babe, I wasn't saying I wasn't sad.
00:33:34.940
But what I was doing is making a statement of comparison.
00:33:37.400
I go, what I mean is what really makes me sad is how many people think that what God wants
00:33:41.920
them to do is watch Charlie Kirk clips on YouTube.
00:33:47.700
What makes me sad is how many people think that now that Charlie's gone, what are we
00:33:52.860
And I, so, I mean, obviously I was sad, but what really makes me sad, Allie Beth, is Christians
00:34:01.260
What really makes me sad is that people think that what you're doing to make a difference
00:34:06.240
is what there's, I mean, cheer for you, pray for you, encourage you, but then figure
00:34:13.640
And do their thing because it's, because Charlie Kirk had no idea that he was going
00:34:22.940
The scripture says in Psalm 139, God has fixed our days.
00:34:31.620
And that's why I would always tell myself, I'm going to have to give an account for these
00:34:37.540
And if somebody is not, you know, and I mean, frankly, just as friends, okay, you know,
00:34:43.880
Allie Beth, you know, you and I, when I get to heaven, right, and I'm standing before the
00:34:49.600
Lord and he says, Todd, you're like, you know, if he says to me, well done, good and faithful
00:34:54.340
servant, it's like, I'm going to, I want to probably look over my shoulder and see my
00:34:57.680
community, see Allie Beth and Tim and go, hey, thank you.
00:35:00.300
Because there's no way he would have said that if it wasn't for your friendship, if it wasn't
00:35:04.900
for your example, so thank you, that if, if members of your body, right, and they're
00:35:10.140
not, he's not going to say, well done, good and educated theologian, you knew you were
00:35:13.880
a sinner and that Christ was the provision for all men.
00:35:17.680
You're not going to be there unless that's true.
00:35:20.440
But what you're going to get judged for, right?
00:35:23.260
Salvation is always by grace, but judgment, and we don't talk about this enough.
00:35:30.260
So if you have no salvation, then you're only going to be judging your works and that's
00:35:37.320
But first Corinthians three says that no man can lay a foundation except that laid by Christ
00:35:44.280
And then it says that we're going to then present to the Lord what we've done and what
00:35:51.260
And imperishable things or perishable things is going to get consumed and you'll be saved as
00:35:56.660
But what we do with our faith is what's going to remain.
00:36:02.380
And that's where we, I think that's what, I think that's what he's going to say.
00:36:06.060
You know, when I stand before the Lord, he's not going to punish me for my sins.
00:36:08.980
Christ covered that, but he's going to reward me for what my faith, his, his grace working
00:36:13.720
out in me as I believed in him and abided with him, what I produced for him.
00:36:18.180
And I really believe that that's, if you, if your church, your community, that's what I
00:36:22.860
Your faithful brothers and sisters in Christ aren't helping you have more to stand before
00:36:30.760
Christ with that he'll get the glory for to lay at his feet that he will celebrate, then
00:36:40.620
We really don't talk about the judgment that Christians are going to endure.
00:36:49.700
Paul says over and over again, not your own doing, not a result of works.
00:36:54.980
Like he really wants you to know that, but you're not talking about salvation.
00:36:59.200
You're not talking about your works getting you to heaven, but before God, even though
00:37:03.660
you are justified, even though Jesus is standing before you as your advocate saying their slate
00:37:10.040
You are saying, or scripture says, based on the good that you have done with that saving
00:37:21.280
It's in Matthew seven where people are going to stand there having done stuff, cast out
00:37:27.800
demons, heal people, share, advance the kingdom.
00:37:31.820
And he's going to say to some people, depart from me.
00:37:34.520
I never knew you because you can do things that God uses, not in faith.
00:37:40.780
That verse used to really trouble me, Allie Beth.
00:37:43.020
I would, I would be like, oh my gosh, how can I even know I'm saved?
00:37:46.120
And the answer is, you know, you're saved because of whom in whom you trust, not what
00:37:51.060
And then you do what you do because of whom you trust.
00:37:59.020
I was actually teaching through John and I got to where it's the night of his betrayal.
00:38:06.220
And he says, hey, listen, you know, one of you is going to betray me and they have no
00:38:14.940
It's because when Jesus sent them out to cast out demons and to heal sicknesses and to preach
00:38:21.400
the gospel, when they came back, Matthew says that everybody reported what they had done
00:38:27.460
and rejoiced in what they had done, including Judas.
00:38:36.880
And, and so, you know, and he was a son of perdition from the beginning.
00:38:41.980
And so they, they didn't go, well, it's got to be Judas.
00:38:44.200
Cause every time we came back, he had nothing to report.
00:38:46.740
Judas did what Matthew seven said, but he never, cause God uses, listen, God uses imperfect
00:38:51.720
And thank him because that means he can use me to do amazing things.
00:38:55.440
That's why at the end of the day, you know, God says, don't you sit there and try and sort
00:39:02.600
But my point is, is I think there's probably, this is a safe statement.
00:39:07.260
I think there's fewer people doing great works for God that aren't saved.
00:39:11.820
Then there are people who think they're saved because of what they believe who do nothing
00:39:21.240
And I, and I wouldn't sleep on that if I'm a, if I'm sitting there and I'm like, what
00:39:31.000
That's again, think about what it says in Romans.
00:39:33.060
I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, present your lives as living and holy
00:39:39.140
sacrifices acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
00:39:54.120
They are an organization that provides pregnancy centers with the equipment that they need to
00:40:00.960
Like ultrasound equipment, the cost of an ultrasound that a woman can see her baby and hear the
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$28 is the cost to make sure that you've got the ultrasound tech, that you've got the time
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and the space and all of that that is needed to help save that baby's life.
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And so if you can just donate $28 to pre-born, you are covering the cost of a life-saving
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Whatever you can donate to pre-born will help save a life.
00:40:38.060
You are putting your money where your heart is.
00:40:40.380
You are getting yourself into the fight for life in a way that God is calling you to when
00:40:58.040
It's what you do with your life that is worship.
00:41:00.120
It's not where you attend a church most Sundays.
00:41:03.680
And if you're in a church where they're not helping you with that, you know, and one of
00:41:08.100
the things I'm doing right now, I bet, is I'm gathering pastors to help equip them, encourage
00:41:14.120
If you're in a church that doesn't have meaningful membership, right, where you're held into account
00:41:23.040
The reason accountability is so important is because that means you count.
00:41:27.260
Like your staff here, if one of them doesn't show up to work, you notice it, right?
00:41:33.900
This incredible team that makes this look beautiful and everything work and edits and
00:41:39.540
If they're not here, you're like, hey, this matters because you're part of the team.
00:41:43.860
If your church doesn't treat you the way you treat your people in the podcast, it's not
00:41:49.040
If you cut off your hands, you would notice it.
00:41:51.440
And if we're supposed to be different members of the body of Christ, well, you should notice
00:41:56.420
if the finger is not there, if the eye is not there, it would make a meaningful difference.
00:42:03.060
I also caught the gentleman, I think you were on with him yesterday, right?
00:42:16.020
He had, I don't know, 15 or 20 people, but he goes, you don't know these faces, but Charlie
00:42:20.480
couldn't have done what he's done without these people.
00:42:27.360
Most of us don't have the gifts that you have, okay?
00:42:30.120
But there are gifts in this room that are every bit as valuable, that are going to be
00:42:35.700
And one of the things I love to tell people, since we're talking about works, it's like there's
00:42:42.700
One of the talents and one of the meanest in the scripture, and what's interesting is
00:42:47.540
if you look at both of those, when people are given, some are given 10, some are given
00:42:54.680
What's interesting about that is if you use your 10 talents, guess what you get?
00:42:59.160
The same reward as a person who used their five talents.
00:43:02.020
The same reward as if a person had used their one talent well.
00:43:05.360
You're not judged because you weren't given 10 talents.
00:43:07.520
The reward for people who are given different gifts is the same if they're faithful with
00:43:14.060
But Charlie was given, I think, a beautiful mind, right?
00:43:16.520
So he went through 31 Hillsdale courses, but clearly he had good recall, right?
00:43:22.120
We were laughing earlier about a mutual friend that doesn't have some of the gifts that you've
00:43:29.040
And that her gifts are completely different than yours.
00:43:32.160
And she shouldn't have to feel bad that she doesn't have your speaking and writing gifts,
00:43:39.780
And so I think, you know, she's going to get the same reward if she's faithful as you
00:43:45.180
So in the other one where people are given five, five, and five, the reward is different.
00:43:52.280
So there are certain things we all have been given, like today, okay?
00:43:56.500
So I've been given 62 years so far, so twice as many as Charlie.
00:44:03.100
But when Charlie and I lived two weeks ago on Wednesday, our day was the same, right?
00:44:18.100
Some of you are, you know, trumpets, which everybody hears a trumpet when it's played.
00:44:24.280
But just use it the way God wants you and be in a church that helps you use it.
00:44:31.700
And by that, not just to support the weekly meeting, but the mission that the gates of
00:44:39.340
That to me was the thing that makes me sad, right?
00:44:43.260
I genuinely am sad about what happened with obviously a good young man and those kids and
00:44:51.120
But I am sadder for God's people that are being ripped off by pastors who want to build
00:45:06.020
An aviary is a place like that it's a big cage that a bunch of birds live in, right?
00:45:13.980
And look how cool my zoo is because I've got hawks, I've got, you know, whatever the
00:45:18.000
fruit loop bird is and all these other cool things.
00:45:23.580
See, you know, all these great birds that are in there and you can come to my aviary and
00:45:34.960
Let them be, you know, sparrows and let them be whatever they're supposed to be to the glory
00:45:40.020
And they're not yours to collect and become famous because you have the biggest aviary
00:45:45.200
You're going to give an account for those, those little creatures.
00:45:54.040
And I'm telling you, one of the things you got to do once you go to your pastor, just
00:45:56.980
full circle, and you love them, come with a heart to bring about change and with solutions,
00:46:08.780
Say, wait, maybe we're not going to change the whole church tomorrow, but do I have permission
00:46:18.260
And then all of a sudden, people are going to see that little part of that community having
00:46:20.620
all the fun, and they're going to want to jump in on that.
00:46:26.320
You've got to decide pretty quickly if you, if they, because churches like, this is the truth,
00:46:31.680
most pastors like it when you just want to do that, and they'll even refer to you, right,
00:46:37.080
and talk about the great things the church is doing because you're doing that while they're
00:46:42.280
And you've got to make sure you're not making people think that because you're there, it's
00:46:49.300
It's a good church if they're calling everybody there.
00:46:51.680
And again, we all develop at different levels and at different times.
00:46:55.620
But I tell people sooner or later, I hate to say it, but the only way to vote is with your
00:47:00.160
feet and stop funding compromised churches that are more committed to theatrical performance
00:47:07.340
on Sunday, give you great children's ministry, awesome worship, and even exegetical teaching
00:47:17.520
If there's a pastor out there that I can serve or churches, that's kind of what this
00:47:20.720
thing, the 1613 Project that I'm doing is a little bit a part of, is helping people,
00:47:27.040
We come to you, whether you're an entertainer, an athlete, a businessman, or a pastor, or
00:47:32.600
a mother, we want to help you be what God wants you to be, right?
00:47:36.160
So 1613 comes from 1 Corinthians 1613, be in the alert, stand firm in the faith.
00:47:43.240
And then it says, act like men, or the ESV says, act courageously.
00:47:46.360
So if I'm talking to you, I'm not going to say, act like a man, Allie Beth.
00:47:49.200
I'm going to say, act courageously, because that's what the scripture says.
00:47:52.940
But be strong and let all you do be done in love.
00:48:00.500
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You've spoken to us as a pastor so uniquely and importantly.
00:49:13.560
I also want you to speak as a parent to parents, because you might not, not everyone knows this
00:49:32.020
And his, I don't know personally every single one of your children.
00:49:38.120
And let me just tell you, these are some of the most solid people I know and just incredible.
00:49:48.340
And of course we thank the Lord for that, but the Lord equipped you and your wife to raise
00:50:03.160
And that is our prayer for all of our kids to take the things of the Lord seriously,
00:50:09.920
And some people are thinking, wow, the world that we're living in, it's scary and there's
00:50:17.060
Give some encouragement and some practical advice to us who are trying to raise godly kids
00:50:24.440
I think my wife and I would both say, and I appreciate you saying my wife and I, because
00:50:27.440
sometimes when I talk, I say my kids and I always mean our kids.
00:50:30.700
And so my wife was an amazing, and is an amazing mom, a grandmother.
00:50:35.960
But we would both say that our greatest ministry accomplishment, the greatest grace in our life
00:50:41.440
is that we have been a blessing to our kids and not a burden.
00:50:45.540
We weren't in the way of them trusting in Christ.
00:50:49.600
You know, Alibeth, Psalm 128 says this, how blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who walks
00:50:56.220
When he eats the fruit of his hands, he will be happy.
00:51:05.580
And I will tell you, I knew whatever I did when I ended up going into full-time ministry,
00:51:10.620
which I did not think I was going to do, but God ended me up having me do that.
00:51:18.580
We have a whole slew of people that are called PKs because they see their dad say one thing
00:51:24.740
in public, but they don't want to follow him because maybe it's not who he is at home or
00:51:33.180
In fact, they were one time, a well-known pastor's kids were around us and flashed them
00:51:48.100
But here's what I would say to you is we did not want to raise obedient children.
00:51:56.260
And so healthy adults have to figure out who God is.
00:51:59.200
And we just told our kids, hey, listen, children are a gift from the Lord.
00:52:03.260
Meaning even though we're your earthly mother and father, we have a stewardship over you.
00:52:15.580
I come from the line of Adam, redeemed by Christ.
00:52:17.800
They come from the line of Todd, in the line of Adam.
00:52:22.600
But I will tell them, they saw me order my life and Alex's life by God's word.
00:52:31.480
They saw us be committed to reconcile with one another.
00:52:35.320
When we broke bread at meals, we didn't do it in an unworthy manner.
00:52:38.060
If there was conflict amongst us as a Christian family,
00:52:40.360
we would stop and work it out before we ate, before we prayed and remembered Christ in our
00:52:46.960
prayer, we'd just go, let's not do this in an unworthy manner, right?
00:52:50.700
If I need to ask your forgiveness because I was just sharp with your mom in the kitchen
00:52:53.540
or this little sibling stuff going on here, let's work that out.
00:53:00.240
So I think when you look in the scripture, the problem, before it becomes a problem with
00:53:08.760
If you look at Israel in the book of Judges, right?
00:53:12.820
Let's go to Samuel because the last judge was Eli, okay?
00:53:17.320
Before, I guess Samuel would be the last judge.
00:53:19.620
But there was a problem with Israel because Eli's sons were not walking with the Lord.
00:53:27.600
And so that made its way into the way the people just despised the things of the Lord.
00:53:32.500
So I just think, you know, for us, okay, I tell people the kids, the kids who do well
00:53:41.520
are the kids that don't watch their parents go to church.
00:53:44.120
Kids whose parents go to church, I think it's an 80% rate of kids who leave the faith whose
00:53:55.260
Then, but I will tell you, kids that watch their parents live missionally, right?
00:54:01.220
Who use their home as a mission in their neighborhood, who love and pray for their neighbors, who
00:54:05.680
have their neighbors in their home, who share Christ with the kids' friends and the kids'
00:54:10.740
friends' parents and others that live near them, who work through things biblically in
00:54:20.900
Getting up on Sunday, pulling everybody together.
00:54:22.800
And if all you do is go to church most weekends when you don't go to the lake or have kids'
00:54:25.620
sports, those kids are like, I'm going to be just like you.
00:54:31.220
But if they watch you, Allie Beth, if they watch you just think biblically, live biblically,
00:54:37.140
make decisions biblically, and they watch the blessing of that and the fruit of that,
00:54:40.460
they watch you and Tim have friendship with people who are in darkness, all of a sudden
00:54:44.500
walk in the light, and they see the power of God, they want to walk with that God.
00:54:51.220
And so I would tell you that my kids saw us be rejected in our community, us being pushed out
00:55:00.380
of certain circles because we asked them to make, even before they were believers, we
00:55:07.100
I mean, I remember when kids, whether it was spending the night sometimes or whether it
00:55:11.140
was going to birthday parties where they were going to go see like a James Bond movie in
00:55:15.640
I'm like, hey, here's why we're not going to do that.
00:55:23.520
And I think the phrase is, we'll be aliens and strangers.
00:55:27.220
If you're not okay being an alien parent today, then you're not ready to be a biblical parent.
00:55:34.160
And so if your kids never tell you, nobody does this, then you're probably more like
00:55:39.880
the world than you are like the salt and light that God says you should be.
00:55:43.540
And your kids need to see you live with that conviction and grace.
00:55:46.680
And at a certain point, you tell them, hey, listen, I'm trying to help you see the blessing
00:55:55.660
And I'm going to let you make age-appropriate choices with age-appropriate consequences.
00:55:58.980
But my whole goal is to let you fly out of this nest and live however you want.
00:56:02.880
Now, my kids, by God's grace, all made decisions that they wanted more of Jesus than they did
00:56:08.980
My favorite quote is by Kirby when she shares her testimony.
00:56:12.760
And her testimony is, because I saw the reality of Christ in the life of my parents and others
00:56:20.680
that they were friends with, and I saw the goodness of God's way, she goes, I have more
00:56:27.420
Because at an early age, I embraced the God who gives joy.
00:56:31.240
And I thought to myself, man, what a testimony.
00:56:34.120
Because most of us think, I don't have a great testimony unless I've got scars.
00:56:46.840
Because from an early age, I've seen the goodness of God.
00:56:52.920
So I would just say, man, parent, you've got to be on.
00:56:59.520
So you cannot ask your Christian school or your church to, it can supplement you.
00:57:13.480
You know, people sometimes ask, you know, what's your wife do to me?
00:57:19.460
I just, you know, you usually call people by their highest title, you know?
00:57:22.360
And so I just said, well, she gives birth to and shape to eternal humanity made in the
00:57:32.600
You know, I mean, again, I understand some people are going to-
00:57:35.360
No, everything's small potatoes compared to that.
00:57:39.900
I mean, Allie Beth, this podcast, as amazing as it is, and we talked about this before we
00:57:48.320
Because this thing is, this is a service to a lot of us.
00:57:51.940
But you recently just stepped it back because you believe what I just said, right?
00:58:01.500
There might be a day, I'll do five days a week, but now, not now, because my primary
00:58:15.580
I think that your greatest episode this year has been the episodes you haven't filmed.
00:58:27.740
Can you reiterate where people can find out about the 1613 Project and also Unhindered?
00:58:33.720
So they're not very impressive websites, but unhindered.org is where they can get a hold
00:58:44.800
And then what we do, myself and some others that are working with me now, is we just like,
00:58:51.120
And one of the things that we're working on right now is pulling together a bunch of pastors
00:58:53.960
who want to be faithful in this way, and pastors and elders, and just encourage each
00:58:59.680
other, not form a denomination, but a network of guys that go, let's remind each other that
00:59:04.840
we're not going to be successful because we have a building or more people, right?
00:59:10.440
The old joke is buildings, budgets, and butts in seats, but I'm telling you, that's powerful.
00:59:15.060
You wouldn't believe how many pastors are still driven by that.
00:59:20.620
And I just want those folks to go, hey, man, you know, and I actually, it's so funny.
00:59:26.960
I finished a book four years ago that's written, and I just haven't released it because when
00:59:31.140
I transitioned away, but the book was, the working title was Holy Discontent, and it was
00:59:39.380
And it was really a warning to pastors if they're not doing what God wants them to do.
00:59:47.980
And it was also to tell people, if you aren't discontent with your church, if it just is
00:59:54.560
satisfied with cutting a deal with you, this is, I answered some of the questions that you
01:00:00.440
have in there, and I probably need to push it out and just, and get it done, but I think,
01:00:07.340
so 1613project.com, unhindered.org, and every now and then do a little podcast called the
01:00:12.780
Todd Wagner Show, but if you're going to choose between that and the Alibeth podcast, go to
01:00:21.380
I really just appreciate your wisdom and your encouragement.