Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1251 ｜ ‘Doesn't Give Martyr’： A Response to Jackie Hill Perry’s Charlie Kirk Comments

00:00:00.720 Was Charlie Kirk truly a martyr?

00:00:03.480 Some Christians think he wasn't, and in fact, they believe that his words weren't giving

00:00:08.680 martyr.

00:00:09.940 We'll respond to that today and look at what the Bible says.

00:00:13.800 Also, Pope Leo has some choice words about those who are pro-death penalty while also

00:00:19.880 being pro-life.

00:00:21.220 Surprise, surprise, I also have some choice words for the Pope.

00:00:24.820 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:27.440 Go to goodranchers.com.

00:00:28.680 Use code ALIA at checkout.

00:00:29.620 That's goodranchers.com, code ALIA.

00:00:41.100 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:42.940 Happy Wednesday.

00:00:44.080 Hope everyone is having a wonderful week so far.

00:00:47.220 Okay, many of you sent me a clip from a podcast called With the Perrys, and this is Jackie Hill

00:00:54.440 Perry.

00:00:55.220 She is a Christian author.

00:00:57.000 She wrote a book called Gay Girl, Good God.

00:01:00.320 It's a really incredible book.

00:01:01.540 She's got an amazing testimony.

00:01:03.680 I've talked many times about the differences in political opinion and theology that we have.

00:01:09.640 We probably agree on a ton of stuff.

00:01:12.900 And yet, in 2020, our differences were highlighted, at least to me, when it comes to race and social

00:01:19.820 and so-called racial justice.

00:01:20.820 And unfortunately, she blocked me on social media.

00:01:25.860 I never even talked to her directly or talked badly about her, but have talked about our differences and disagreements.

00:01:31.960 And so, when many of you sent me this clip about Charlie Kirk and about what some people call Christian nationalism and wanted me to respond, I'm happy to do so.

00:01:44.400 I'm not trying to aggravate the differences that we already have or any, like, anger that may already be there.

00:01:54.820 Like, I don't feel angry, but I continue to disagree with her perspective and the way she approaches topics like this.

00:02:02.360 But I also wasn't necessarily surprised about how this conversation went down.

00:02:07.500 Their episode was titled Neither Blue Nor Red, Being a Disciple in a Culture War.

00:02:12.780 And they were talking about Charlie's death.

00:02:15.660 And I just want to say, like, this is a clip that they posted on social media.

00:02:19.480 This is not me extracting something, intentionally decontextualizing anything.

00:02:24.260 This is a clip that they themselves posted.

00:02:26.980 Here's that two.

00:02:27.860 I don't want to reword your language, but I also want to add to your language.

00:02:31.500 Help me. Be my helper.

00:02:32.860 No, to say, not only grieving in a way that's distinct, but also grieving.

00:02:39.260 Or they misunderstand, why don't you think he's a martyr?

00:02:43.160 And it's like, because I heard what he said.

00:02:45.400 Yeah.

00:02:45.760 And so, it's not that I don't appreciate his stances on abortion, on sexuality, on marriage.

00:02:54.220 Yes.

00:02:54.580 But it's also, I hear other things alongside that that don't give martyr.

00:02:58.820 OK. So, he didn't give martyr in some of the things he said.

00:03:03.840 And I will say that there is another part of that clip.

00:03:05.840 You can go look at it on social media.

00:03:07.480 We can't play the entirety of it on this podcast.

00:03:10.980 But we didn't take in out anything that was relevant.

00:03:15.080 The other part was mostly about Christian nationalism.

00:03:17.960 So, there's a few things I would say to that.

00:03:20.480 Yes, Charlie is going to seem to some people harsh because of how unwaveringly clear he was.

00:03:27.700 When it comes to things like abortion, I know she said she appreciated his stance.

00:03:31.920 But when Roe was overturned, when the Dobbs decision was published, I remember a lot of people were asking Jackie Hill Perry to comment on that and to say something about that.

00:03:42.080 And she made a joke about it when people asked her, you know, what do you think about Roe?

00:03:46.320 And she said, oh, like salmon, Roe.

00:03:48.660 And I believe that she believes in the sanctity of unborn life, of course, as a Christian.

00:03:53.500 But she has also claimed that that is a very nuanced topic.

00:03:56.080 So, that tells me a lot about how she approaches issues that is very different from how Charlie approached issues, how I approach issues, that might lead to that kind of gap in understanding there or any kind of brashness that she might perceive from Charlie, which was actually just strength and clarity.

00:04:17.600 But I want to get to the bigger point here, which is really important.

00:04:21.020 And that is about martyrdom.

00:04:23.060 Was Charlie a martyr?

00:04:24.120 She says that other things that he said didn't give martyr.

00:04:27.900 And I take issue with how that is phrased because that's such a, like, a flippant way to be talking about the assassination of a brother in Christ.

00:04:36.560 But here is the first question I would ask, and that is, what other things?

00:04:41.280 What?

00:04:41.900 Specifically?

00:04:42.820 Like, give me the details.

00:04:44.460 If we're talking about whether a brother was martyred or not, like, I want to know specifically what were the things that he said that weren't, quote, unquote, giving martyrdom.

00:04:54.120 And then we have to get into what is actually a martyr.

00:04:58.900 What does the Bible say that a martyr is?

00:05:02.120 When we look at the etymology of martyrdom and that word, what does it actually mean?

00:05:09.260 Is a martyr someone who only says things we agree with?

00:05:12.440 Is a martyr someone who never says things that are offensive?

00:05:16.620 Is a martyr someone that has to be perfect and totally sinless?

00:05:20.340 Is that how we define martyr?

00:05:21.600 Because it seems to me from that conversation that that is how they are defining it.

00:05:26.040 Charlie Kirk said things that they don't agree with.

00:05:28.000 I'm still not exactly sure what.

00:05:30.220 Or that maybe they deemed offensive or they deemed un-Christ-like, and so he wasn't a martyr.

00:05:35.800 But I think when we dig into what biblically a martyr actually is, we get a different answer.

00:05:43.240 So let's look at the definition.

00:05:46.080 It means, one, a martyr is one who bears testimony to faith.

00:05:50.960 One who willingly suffers death rather than surrender his or her religious faith, especially their Christian beliefs.

00:05:57.940 When we look into the Greek term martyrs, so when we look at the etymology, the study of this word, martyrs literally means witness.

00:06:07.000 So a witness to the truth.

00:06:08.820 And what does witness mean?

00:06:10.460 It means someone who attests to a fact, to an event, from personal knowledge.

00:06:15.600 So one who so testifies.

00:06:18.440 Now what does testify mean?

00:06:20.800 To affirm the truth of.

00:06:23.060 So, knowing these things and looking into not only this definition, but the words into the definition, in the definition, what is a martyr?

00:06:31.440 A person who endures death because they affirmed the truth of Christianity. 0.99

00:06:36.060 Someone who is placed on the witness stand and made to testify to the truth of the gospel and then executed for doing so.

00:06:44.420 Now when we look at this definition, what is not the definition of a martyr?

00:06:48.220 What is not the definition of a martyr is someone who always agrees with us.

00:06:52.980 Someone who never offends us.

00:06:54.580 Someone who is sinless.

00:06:55.580 Only Jesus was sinless.

00:06:57.160 Someone whose words meet our definition of gentle or loving or kind.

00:07:01.400 It is also not someone who never talked about politics or who voted a certain way.

00:07:06.460 That's not how we define martyrdom.

00:07:08.640 Not when we look at the original root of the word and also not when we look at scripture.

00:07:14.020 So let's look at some martyrs in scripture.

00:07:16.140 Let's look at John the Baptist and let's look at Stephen.

00:07:18.840 Let's look at their words, their attitude, people's response to them, and then weigh whether or not they were a martyr.

00:07:26.080 Either by this podcast definition of what a martyr is and the actual definition of what a martyr is.

00:07:32.580 But first, let me remind you guys, Share the Arrows is coming up.

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00:10:02.380 Okay, let's first look at John the Baptist.

00:10:04.500 John the Baptist, if you don't know, cousin of Jesus.

00:10:06.800 He made the way for Jesus, prepared the way for Jesus.

00:10:10.160 He preached repentance, baptism.

00:10:13.060 And now Herod, the ruler at the time, imprisoned John the Baptist, and not primarily or explicitly for preaching the gospel, but because John was calling out Herod's sin of marrying his own brother's wife, Herodias, while his brother, Philip, was still alive.

00:10:28.760 And Herodias, this incestuous woman, convinced her daughter to seduce Herod. 0.99

00:10:35.360 So lots of depravity going on here. 0.57

00:10:38.420 And convinced Herod to behead John the Baptist. 0.94

00:10:41.500 Herodias didn't like being called out for her sin, so she exploited her daughter sexually in order to seduce her husband to execute John the Baptist. 0.99

00:10:50.380 Really disgusting. 0.98

00:10:51.660 But Herod did it. 0.98

00:10:54.340 Executed John the Baptist, beheaded him, presented his head on a platter to Herodias.

00:11:00.280 So John the Baptist was brutally executed, not explicitly for preaching on repentance, not explicitly for baptism or talking about Jesus.

00:11:08.900 He was beheaded because he defended the sanctity of marriage.

00:11:12.240 It was for calling out the sin of the people in charge.

00:11:15.700 He offended people because he said, what you're doing is not in alignment with what God calls good and true.

00:11:22.260 Now, that is all intertwined with biblical truth, with God's truth, with the gospel that he was preaching.

00:11:29.640 But primarily and explicitly, he was executed for calling out sin, for standing up for the sanctity of marriage.

00:11:38.000 Now, he was probably pretty brash when he did it.

00:11:41.380 In fact, if you look at his life and you look at some of the things he said, some people today would probably call that mean.

00:11:47.080 Some people today would maybe say he had an unnecessarily harsh tone.

00:11:51.140 Is this still giving martyr?

00:11:53.600 Was John the Baptist perfect? 0.81

00:11:54.840 No, he wasn't perfect.

00:11:56.000 He was making the way for the perfect one, which was Jesus Christ.

00:11:59.140 He was executed for saying what was biblically true.

00:12:02.940 Is that giving martyr?

00:12:05.320 And then we've got Stephen.

00:12:06.540 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people.

00:12:10.700 Many religious people rose up and disputed with Stephen, but they could not withstand the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking.

00:12:17.680 And they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes, and they came upon him and seized him and brought him before the council.

00:12:24.640 And they set up false witnesses who said, this man never ceases to speak words against the holy place and the law.

00:12:30.420 And then they also noticed, this is verse 15, that his face was like that of an angel.

00:12:35.400 I always just think that's an interesting part.

00:12:37.880 I'm not trying to directly compare that with anyone.

00:12:40.420 I just think that that's interesting that he was so calm in the face of these accusations.

00:12:45.980 So the high priest at the time asked Stephen to defend himself.

00:12:49.520 And then Stephen becomes a witness, testifying to the truth that he knows, the truth of the gospel.

00:12:55.800 And in so doing, he decides to this Jewish audience to go all the way back to Abraham. 0.73

00:13:00.680 He goes through the history of the Jewish people, what God had done for them and how the Jewish people in general rebelled.

00:13:07.160 Then he says this to these Jewish leaders in the audience who are chomping at the bit to call him a blasphemer.

00:13:13.540 He says, you stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears.

00:13:18.200 Now, that would be a big deal to say, since circumcision was a sign of the Jewish people, of their set-apartness, of their holiness. 0.73

00:13:25.340 And yet he says, basically, you might be circumcised in that way, but you're uncircumcised in heart and ears.

00:13:31.320 You always resist the Holy Spirit, as your fathers did.

00:13:34.480 So do you, Stephen said.

00:13:36.700 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute?

00:13:39.380 And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the righteous one, whom you have now betrayed and murdered.

00:13:45.460 And you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.

00:13:50.240 Now, they heard these things.

00:13:51.600 And the Bible says they were enraged.

00:13:53.320 They ground their teeth at him.

00:13:54.660 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

00:14:00.220 Verses 54-55.

00:14:01.540 Behold, I see the heavens open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.

00:14:04.920 Oh, my goodness.

00:14:05.680 They hated that.

00:14:06.300 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him.

00:14:11.300 And then Stephen says, with his dying breath, do not hold this sin against them.

00:14:17.660 Now, I'm not even making a direct comparison here.

00:14:21.960 I'm not saying that Charlie was saying these exact words when he died.

00:14:26.240 I'm not saying that Charlie is the exact same as John the Baptist.

00:14:29.420 But I'm looking at the principle of martyrdom here.

00:14:32.480 We have people who today might be criticized for saying things that were considered offensive, might have been criticized for their tone.

00:14:40.420 You have some people, I'm not even saying the people in this podcast that we're responding to, but I've seen similar sentiments in other places where people are like, well, you know, he was a little harsh.

00:14:49.800 Well, he said something that was kind of racially insensitive.

00:14:52.280 And I could just see those people back then when Stephen was martyred being like, well, he didn't have to call him a stiff-necked people.

00:15:00.940 He kind of went below the belt there.

00:15:02.960 He could have been a little bit nicer.

00:15:04.880 He could have been a little bit, I don't know, more winsome, more persuasive.

00:15:09.660 John the Baptist didn't have to go after his marriage.

00:15:12.280 Which, I mean, really, like if you're going to preach the gospel, at least be nice about, like you could see.

00:15:18.080 And again, I'm not saying that this conversation we're responding to is saying exactly that.

00:15:22.580 But I just want to speak to a lot of the sentiment that I've seen out there of people saying, well, Charlie's not a martyr because, you know, whatever he said that we didn't like.

00:15:32.000 And I just wonder if you would have had the same response to these people, the martyrs of the Bible.

00:15:39.280 Maybe if they had just talked more about love.

00:15:41.520 Maybe if they had just never gotten into these controversial issues, then maybe they wouldn't have been killed.

00:15:46.980 And yet Stephen is described as full of grace and power.

00:15:49.940 Jesus is described in John 1 as full of grace and truth.

00:15:52.640 These are descriptors that we would want.

00:15:54.540 Think about being called full of grace.

00:15:57.060 Mary, full of grace.

00:15:59.120 And yet these people were completely unwavering in the truth.

00:16:04.240 And John the Baptist and Stephen completely unabashed in calling out sin.

00:16:09.720 I think there are so many lessons for us to learn there.

00:16:13.220 But again, going back to what a martyr is not.

00:16:16.600 A martyr is not someone who's perfect.

00:16:18.380 He's not someone who never talks about politics.

00:16:20.300 He's not someone who never offends you.

00:16:23.900 Stephen and John the Baptist may have said a lot of things that were offensive.

00:16:27.280 They probably said things that were true and untrue.

00:16:30.320 But they were killed because they spoke the truth and they called out sin and people didn't like it. 1.00

00:16:34.940 Charlie wasn't killed because he called Kamala Harris an idiot. 0.99

00:16:39.560 He wasn't killed because he said that Joy Reid didn't have the brainpower to get the job that she has. 0.99

00:16:46.160 And by the way, I think Jesus has much harsher words for people like Kamala Harris and Joy Reid.

00:16:51.060 For other reasons, for the state of their heart and for the evil that they perpetuate and promote.

00:16:57.300 Far more offensive seeming things than that.

00:17:01.340 Charlie wasn't killed because he criticized DEI.

00:17:04.020 He wasn't killed because he liked Trump.

00:17:06.720 Charlie was killed essentially for repeating what the Bible has to say about gender and marriage, sex, and most of all, the gospel.

00:17:15.540 And I just want to say that if that happened to anyone that I disagree with on race and social justice and things like that, but they're Christians, they're preaching the gospel, they're saying what is true about gender and sexuality and marriage, and they got killed in the midst of doing that, I would not be quibbling on a podcast three weeks later about whether or not they're martyred.

00:17:38.860 I just wouldn't.

00:17:41.560 It's not the right thing to do.

00:17:43.140 It's not what you do to the body of Christ.

00:17:45.100 It's not what you do as a human being.

00:17:47.740 And I just want to say, too, like, this is the last point that I want to make on this, because I got some messages from people saying, well, you know, at least they're not celebrating.

00:17:57.800 At least they, in this podcast conversation, said, you know, we shouldn't be celebrating the death of an image bearer of God.

00:18:07.040 And they did.

00:18:08.460 I heard that.

00:18:09.500 I listened to that.

00:18:10.720 And they said they were sad to see people cheering in their timeline, cheering in comment sections.

00:18:17.400 And I think people appreciated that they didn't do that, that they said it's always tragic, you know, when someone dies.

00:18:24.960 And for me, I just don't have any congratulations to give on that.

00:18:29.000 That's bare minimum human decency.

00:18:30.880 That is bare minimum compassion that we expect from even non-believers, okay? 1.00

00:18:37.900 Like, that's not power of the Holy Spirit grace, okay?

00:18:42.680 That is, like, because we have all been given the common grace of being human, that we can access not being absolute monsters by cheering on someone's death.

00:18:52.520 So you don't get an attaboy from me for not cheering on the slaughter of a human being.

00:18:58.200 Again, that is bare minimum.

00:18:59.500 Bernie Sanders gave a better statement than this.

00:19:01.840 Bernie Sanders is an atheist.

00:19:03.660 His statement after Charlie Kirk was murdered was more respectful than this.

00:19:08.260 Okay?

00:19:08.500 So, like, I just don't have, like, a whole lot of hoorah.

00:19:12.300 Like, that's awesome for you.

00:19:14.100 Again, bare minimum, bare minimum human decency.

00:19:19.240 All right.

00:19:19.620 I've got more to say on this.

00:19:20.680 Let me go ahead and pause.

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00:20:36.520 You know, another thing I was thinking about after I saw that clip, and I do think, like, all three people in there, I mean, Justin Giboney has been on my show before.

00:20:46.480 He's the head of the AN campaign, which, like, I do believe exists to make Christians vote Democrat.

00:20:51.800 I just do, and to make them less convicted in their, you know, in their conservative perspectives on politics.

00:21:01.100 But I did appreciate him being willing to come on, and I do think that in a lot of ways, like, I do think that they really mean well.

00:21:09.480 But I do wonder, after George Floyd died, and I hate to even make this comparison, but as we're about to get into, this comparison is being made.

00:21:18.700 After George Floyd died, if I had come on here three weeks later and be like, you know what, just, like, in the name of nuance, you need to understand why I don't care about that death as much as, like, the rest of you guys do.

00:21:30.120 Because that's, in other parts of this podcast, this is what they're saying, like, you need to understand, like, why we didn't relate to his death as much as, you know, some of you white conservatives out there are doing.

00:21:42.720 I'm paraphrasing there.

00:21:45.520 And if someone had three weeks after George Floyd died said, okay, y'all just need to understand that, like, I don't care about this as much, and I don't think this is as big of a deal, because I didn't like him.

00:21:56.780 And let me just remind you, three weeks after his death, of what a horrible person he was, and that you guys don't need to be lionizing him in any way.

00:22:05.300 And by the way, like, George Floyd was actually a horrible person, but no one was even willing to say anything negative about George Floyd for at least a year after he died for fear of backlash and just to try to be sensitive to the situation.

00:22:19.400 I think there was a lot more sensitivity when George Floyd, a criminal, died than when Charlie Kirk was assassinated for saying things true.

00:22:30.900 When Charlie Kirk is assassinated for saying true things, rather, there's all of a sudden there's this nuance.

00:22:36.880 Well, we just need to really talk about how he was possibly a racist.

00:22:40.120 We need to really talk about, like, all the things he possibly did wrong.

00:22:43.500 But if you tried to add nuance or another layer to the conversation in the immediate aftermath of what happened to George Floyd, even saying things as I did, which got me so much pushback at the time,

00:22:55.420 oh, guys, like, I don't think that we should be, like, looting.

00:22:59.140 Like, I don't think that we should be burning down cities and essentially punishing people who did nothing wrong because of the actions of a police officer over there.

00:23:07.700 Like, that is probably not good.

00:23:09.440 And actually, I don't think that's understandable.

00:23:11.840 I don't think that's justified.

00:23:12.940 I actually think that's just sin.

00:23:14.640 And there's no reason for Christians to excuse it. 0.99

00:23:16.820 All of that was true.

00:23:18.700 And I even, like, tried to temper that as much as I possibly could to be as sensitive to the situation as much as I possibly could at the time and still so much blowback.

00:23:28.580 And yet, after a father of two gets brutally murdered by someone who hated him because of the true things he said,

00:23:37.020 oh, let's just talk about all of the things that offended us, that Charlie Crick said, that weren't giving martyr.

00:23:44.160 I just, I think that's strange.

00:23:46.620 I think it's strange how the standard is so different.

00:23:48.680 And in The Atlantic, we've got someone whose name is Thomas Chatterton Williams, who I think is probably like a moderate guy.

00:23:54.900 He probably typically is center left.

00:23:57.040 And you can tell me if I'm getting that wrong.

00:23:59.140 He published an article that is titled The Other Martyr, MAGA, Has Found Its George Floyd.

00:24:06.100 The article argues that after George Floyd's death in 2020, the left turned him into a saint-like figure to push their goals.

00:24:12.840 And now the MAGA right is doing the same with Charlie Crick's assassination, using his name to promote their agenda and attack opponents.

00:24:20.080 So he's basically saying both sides are the same.

00:24:23.160 The left lionized George Floyd after he died to push their political goals.

00:24:27.340 And now the right is doing the same.

00:24:29.100 So he does criticize the left.

00:24:30.560 So I'm correct in my assessment.

00:24:32.260 He's, you know, is a guy who tries to be moderate.

00:24:34.460 He points out that in the summer of 2020, protests were happening around the world.

00:24:40.380 He doesn't actually talk about the rioting and violence.

00:24:43.760 And that white liberals were gathering to repent of their white privilege with quasi-religious fervor.

00:24:49.240 That part is true.

00:24:50.280 He also uses the example of Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer taking a knee in the Capitol while wearing kinti cloth, which was, what a time! 1.00

00:24:58.740 Like, what was happening?

00:24:59.700 They're wearing, like, African garb and, like, kneeling in the Capitol.

00:25:03.540 It was so crazy.

00:25:05.200 He writes,

00:25:05.620 For many on the left, Floyd's asphyxiation turned a flawed and desperate man into a Christ figure, someone who bore the weight of the world's failings and is so doing clear to path to fix them, he wrote.

00:25:16.460 And, of course, that was true at the time.

00:25:18.820 A lot of people were doing that.

00:25:20.740 But then he says the right is doing the same thing, that it's a mirror image of what happened with George Floyd.

00:25:25.140 He said the right is using Charlie Kirk's name to advance illiberal aims and silence opponents.

00:25:29.580 He uses the example of Irina Zarutska, the woman—this was right before Charlie was murdered.

00:25:34.800 I thought that was going to be the saddest thing I talked about that week.

00:25:38.220 And then, of course, Charlie was assassinated right after.

00:25:40.400 She was the woman who was brutally murdered on a train in Charlotte, North Carolina, by a career criminal. 0.64

00:25:47.600 And he said that we're using that, that we were looking for a martyr.

00:25:51.800 We were ready to position Zarutska as a martyr, but then Charlie Kirk's murder overshadowed her story.

00:25:56.580 He refers to the efforts to honor Charlie Kirk as canonization.

00:26:00.200 For example, Trump ordering flags to be lowered at half-staff.

00:26:04.500 Some Andrew Colvitt referring to the bullet not leaving Charlie's body and killing someone else as a miracle.

00:26:09.340 He also points out a difference between today and 2020, and that back then, it was only social media mobs calling to cancel George Floyd detractors.

00:26:17.200 But recently, figures like J.D. Vance and Representative Randy Fine, Brendan Carr, the Trump-appointed chair of the FCC,

00:26:24.540 have bolstered support for reporting and firing people who have celebrated Charlie Kirk's death.

00:26:28.300 He concluded saying today, like five years ago, a controversial man has been transformed overnight into a one-dimensional state,

00:26:34.240 marshalled in a culture war that precludes measured thought.

00:26:38.100 Once again, Americans are being asked to genuflect before an idol.

00:26:43.400 He says, Kirk has been reduced to slogans and half-truths that obscure the real tragedy of his death.

00:26:48.320 But if Americans are to learn anything valuable from the deceased, both sides will need to find the courage to reject such opportunism.

00:26:56.980 There are many problems, of course, with this line of thinking.

00:27:01.240 I can appreciate his, you know, efforts to be fair.

00:27:05.740 However, when you both side something, you end up minimizing the real objective differences between good and evil.

00:27:12.980 And that, of course, is what is going on here.

00:27:15.960 You've got on one side, you've got George Floyd, who actually was a career criminal.

00:27:20.780 I'm not saying that if he that if he had been murdered, that that murder was justified.

00:27:26.280 That's not what I'm saying.

00:27:27.520 But when you're talking about someone that shouldn't be lionized, that shouldn't be canonized as a saint.

00:27:33.480 I mean, he was arrested multiple times for drug possession.

00:27:36.340 He was arrested in 2007 for aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon, a home invasion.

00:27:42.780 He allegedly held his pregnant girlfriend at gunpoint and pointed the gun directly at her unborn child in her womb.

00:27:51.820 He had multiple other arrests from 1997 to 2019.

00:27:57.240 And, of course, there is debate about how he actually died.

00:28:00.760 He had fatal levels of fentanyl in his system.

00:28:03.980 He was already saying mama, mama before he died.

00:28:07.200 It's actually also reported that that was the nickname that he gave to his girlfriend and was not actually calling out for his mother.

00:28:13.900 Also, when you look at other angles of how George Floyd died, it doesn't look like the police officer was leaning on his neck, but was actually leaning on his back.

00:28:23.740 And so there is actually much debate about how George Floyd died.

00:28:27.260 Now, you can still say, even knowing those things, that you think that he was mistreated.

00:28:32.720 You can even try to deduce that he was being mistreated because of the color of his skin.

00:28:36.780 But we don't actually have any evidence of that.

00:28:38.760 Like, we don't have any evidence that George Floyd was mistreated based on the color of his skin or that there was some racism that was at play in this situation.

00:28:49.680 We can still acknowledge the tragedy that someone died, the tragedy in a lot of ways of his life.

00:28:56.200 But it wasn't his skin color that put him in that particular situation as far as we know.

00:29:02.520 And yet it was immediately assumed what the motive was.

00:29:05.600 And then that motive was assigned not only to Derek Chauvin, but to police in general, and then to white people in general, and then to Trump voters in general, and then to evangelicals in general, like with no connection whatsoever.

00:29:19.940 And all of these corporations and these institutions and these churches all bowed down at the altar of BLM, posted the black square, repeated the BLM mantras. 0.61

00:29:30.560 Because no one dared criticize the movement for a long time.

00:29:34.920 I mean, some of us did.

00:29:36.660 But even then, it was in the most gentle way that we possibly could because it was very obvious where the power was shifting at the time.

00:29:44.380 And I'm not even talking about white versus black.

00:29:46.720 I'm talking about the power was shifting towards the left.

00:29:49.420 And this was also in a time of COVID when everyone was scared anyway.

00:29:53.880 And all of this, of course, led to Joe Biden winning in November.

00:29:58.760 And so all of this was happening.

00:30:01.540 George Floyd was absolutely hailed as some kind of messianic figure by so many.

00:30:07.680 And people were not only changing policy and pushing for policy change in his name, but they were also rioting in his name.

00:30:15.960 They were also murdering in his name.

00:30:17.940 They were looting in his name.

00:30:19.980 There was arson in his name.

00:30:22.660 Okay, that's what we saw.

00:30:23.760 We saw violence and we saw chaos and we saw many Christians excusing that violence and chaos in the wake of George Floyd's death based on a completely unproven narrative that systemic racism caused his unfair death.

00:30:38.380 Okay, so that was George Floyd.

00:30:40.040 That was the aftermath of George Floyd.

00:30:41.700 That looks nothing like Charlie Kirk or the aftermath of Charlie Kirk.

00:30:45.020 And I'll get to this in a second, but Victor Davis Hanson, historian, we've had him on this show. 0.59

00:30:52.360 He looks at this comparison and just how ridiculous it is.

00:30:54.800 And we'll play that in just a second.

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00:32:21.280 Here's that one.

00:32:27.120 Number one, they say this is the conservatives' George Floyd moment.

00:32:32.260 It is not a George Floyd moment.

00:32:33.920 After the death of George Floyd, Antifa and BLM led five months of violent protests.

00:32:40.060 35 people killed.

00:32:41.360 1,500 police officers injured.

00:32:43.580 Historic church torch.

00:32:45.640 Police precinct torch.

00:32:47.260 Federal courthouse torch.

00:32:48.980 Two billion dollars of property damage, arson, looting, violence.

00:32:52.880 Charlie Kirk was not anything like George Floyd.

00:32:55.780 There was nothing at all similar.

00:32:58.420 Well, of course not.

00:32:59.640 Because Charlie Kirk was a Christian. 0.83

00:33:02.440 He was a husband.

00:33:04.000 And he was a father.

00:33:05.640 And he traveled the world preaching the gospel.

00:33:09.040 Yes, he talked about politics.

00:33:10.360 Yes, he talked about culture.

00:33:11.580 But he was of the belief, just as I am, that all of our political and cultural beliefs should flow from our belief in the gospel.

00:33:19.280 Flow from our belief in the authority of the word of God.

00:33:21.780 And because we're finite, fallible people, yes, we are going to get that wrong.

00:33:26.260 All of us have the potential to get those things wrong.

00:33:30.060 But that was his conviction.

00:33:31.720 That is what he preached.

00:33:33.160 He's nothing like George Floyd.

00:33:34.860 And the aftermath of George Floyd dying when he was almost overdosing or perhaps did overdose on fentanyl.

00:33:43.220 And Charlie Kirk being assassinated, supposedly by some kind of pro-trans, anti-fascist left-wing activist, as he just finished arguing for the authority and the sufficiency of scripture.

00:33:59.640 Not only are the crimes different, the aftermath is different.

00:34:02.200 We had violence after George Floyd.

00:34:04.660 We had vigils after Charlie Kirk.

00:34:06.320 No police officer is scared for his life after Charlie Kirk died.

00:34:10.760 Like, we don't see any retaliation.

00:34:12.860 We don't see any vigilantism.

00:34:14.440 We don't see any vengeance.

00:34:15.740 No one has been murdered in the wake of Charlie Kirk.

00:34:18.620 Instead, you see revival.

00:34:20.140 You see people going to church more.

00:34:21.740 You see people praying more.

00:34:23.060 Another thing that I heard in that podcast earlier was, oh, I saw these people in my timeline on social media cheering when Charlie Kirk died.

00:34:33.220 And, you know, I had to tell people, let's not cheer.

00:34:35.240 I'm like, I've never had to tell my audience not to cheer when someone they disagrees with dies.

00:34:40.600 Like, I've never had to chastise them in that way.

00:34:42.760 When Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I and a bunch of other conservatives said, you know, that was a monumental life and, like, may God be with her family.

00:34:54.420 That's what you say when someone dies who you didn't agree with.

00:34:58.500 And, you know, maybe you pray for their family, but you don't quibble about whether or not you felt like he was an offensive racist.

00:35:08.720 But that's what we see from the left versus the right.

00:35:11.660 We see a bunch of chaos and division and violence from the left when their guy dies.

00:35:18.360 And then when our legitimate, like, hero in a lot of ways dies, you see people preaching the gospel, believing the gospel, getting baptized.

00:35:27.060 My DMs are filled with people who are saying, I reconciled with my dad.

00:35:31.560 I reconciled with my friend.

00:35:33.600 I'm going back to church.

00:35:35.000 I just opened the Bible for the first time.

00:35:37.220 I have so many people asking me for help and, like, starting out becoming a Christian.

00:35:42.500 I saw the opposite after George Floyd.

00:35:44.560 It was like, I don't talk to my dad anymore.

00:35:46.840 I'm not talking to my friend anymore.

00:35:49.240 I'm no longer connected to that person because of their reaction or, like, what they, they weren't sufficient and, like, denouncing their white privilege.

00:35:58.140 A tree is known by its fruit.

00:36:01.300 Okay?

00:36:01.780 A tree is known by its fruit.

00:36:03.960 Pastor Virgil Walker of G3 Ministries, he's been on this show as well.

00:36:07.880 He wrote a good article for Blaze Media just contrasting the reaction to George Floyd versus Charlie Kirk.

00:36:16.100 And he said, you know, Kirk's death was met with prayer and gospel proclamation, and it reflects the spirit of God.

00:36:21.280 While riots after George Floyd's death reflect a destructive spirit of rage masquerading as justice, and that is absolutely true, let us not forget that there were people who were murdered in the wake of George Floyd.

00:36:32.480 Antonio Mays, David Dorn, Sequoia Turner, those were all Americans who happened to be black who were murdered by BLM rioters who were apparently, supposedly, trying to promote justice for black people. 0.96

00:36:45.660 They murdered black people. 0.98

00:36:46.780 Huh? 1.00

00:36:47.220 Interesting.

00:36:47.620 The secular narrative of justice that justified looting, arson, and autonomous zones as expressions of the oppressed, that's what we see from the left from a Christian perspective, this exposes the folly of worldly ideologies that reject biblical justice, Virgil Walker says.

00:37:01.260 The same voices behind the riots called for defunding the police, and what did that bring?

00:37:04.800 More chaos, more crime, more death.

00:37:07.160 Chaos parading as justice. 0.63

00:37:09.120 Floyd wasn't the only flashpoint.

00:37:10.580 We had Michael Brown, of course, we had Kenosha, Jacob Blake, that ignited nights of arson and looting culminating in chaos that left the city smoldering.

00:37:20.720 The reaction to Charlie's death reflected everything that he stood for.

00:37:23.880 Only candles burned.

00:37:25.240 Vigil candles lifted high in memory of a man who gave his life for truth.

00:37:28.120 People gathered in churches.

00:37:30.180 Prayers rose instead of Molotov cocktails.

00:37:32.380 Instead of mobs manning blood, thousands made decisions to follow Christ.

00:37:36.040 Politicians who would never publicly declare the name of Jesus suddenly spoke openly about the need for the gospel.

00:37:41.200 Instead of excuses for lawlessness, there were testimonies of salvation.

00:37:45.660 Yes and amen.

00:37:47.120 This doesn't make Charlie perfect.

00:37:48.820 This doesn't make people on the right perfect.

00:37:50.740 This doesn't mean that Republicans and conservatives are synonymous with the body of Christ.

00:37:56.040 That's not what I'm arguing.

00:37:56.960 But when we look at the fruit of the ideologies of both sides, we see the reactions and responses to, like, two very different people in two very different situations.

00:38:08.640 We see that there is a real underlying difference.

00:38:12.760 And, like, there is a different standard for human decency on the left and the right.

00:38:16.660 And, again, like, I just don't understand the so-called moderate and nuanced position of, yeah, it was bad that he was murdered, but he also is kind of racist.

00:38:25.220 That doesn't make you a decent person. 0.98

00:38:27.240 That's really, really scummy and really calloused. 0.98

00:38:30.960 So, again, no congratulations from me.

00:38:33.400 I think that that shows that there's not, like, a whole lot of moral and theological and, like, intellectual clarity when it comes to the loss of life like this and what I believe is true martyrdom.

00:38:46.660 All right.

00:38:48.200 Let's go into this next subject.

00:38:50.020 We have a few minutes left, and so I'll try to get as much in as I can as I respond to the Pope about the death penalty.

00:38:59.480 So, you know, when the Pope says something that seems progressive that I'm going to respond.

00:39:05.680 And if you're one of my beloved Catholic listeners or viewers, please don't turn it off.

00:39:10.240 Please don't comment angrily.

00:39:11.760 Just hear me out.

00:39:13.160 And chances are you might agree with me.

00:39:15.800 And it's not just me.

00:39:16.780 It's also Catholics who are calling out the Pope for what he said.

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00:40:45.640 Okay, here is the Pope, Pope Leo XIV.

00:40:49.800 Yep, the 14th, saying that the death penalty is not pro-life.

00:40:54.500 Someone who says I'm against abortion but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life.

00:41:01.280 So someone who says that I'm against abortion but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants from the United States, 0.99

00:41:11.000 I don't know if that's pro-life.

00:41:12.580 So they're very complex issues.

00:41:14.720 I don't know if anyone has all the truth on them.

00:41:17.620 Okay, I do not like this line of thinking.

00:41:23.180 And listen, it is okay to disagree with the Pope.

00:41:26.800 I just want to say that.

00:41:27.900 Because every time I disagree with the Pope, I will have someone who is angry who says,

00:41:31.620 well, the Pope is not infallible.

00:41:34.700 And I think that their point is that, you know, that when I disagree with the Pope,

00:41:39.240 that doesn't necessarily mean I'm undermining Catholicism.

00:41:42.440 But listen, if the Pope isn't infallible, which I agree with you on that,

00:41:47.680 then it's okay for me to disagree with him.

00:41:49.540 And it's okay for you to disagree with him because he is a fallible human being.

00:41:53.380 And so he's going to say things that are wrong unless you believe that he is infallible and totally sinless,

00:41:59.620 which only Jesus was infallible and totally sinless.

00:42:02.000 So that means he might say things that aren't in alignment with God's Word.

00:42:05.500 And of course, this is why I believe and why Protestants believe in the supreme authority of Scripture,

00:42:10.680 because all of our thoughts and all of our words and every single teaching has to be in alignment with the Word of God.

00:42:18.060 And when he's talking about the death penalty not being pro-life,

00:42:22.120 then what he is essentially saying is that God is not pro-life because God is the one that commands the death penalty.

00:42:30.480 If we go all the way back to Genesis 9, this is the Noahic covenant.

00:42:34.160 So this is before Israel.

00:42:36.920 This is before civilization.

00:42:39.560 God says in Genesis 9,

00:42:40.920 So it's really important when we're reading the Old Testament,

00:42:51.160 when we're reading the New Testament to read what comes after therefore or for or because.

00:42:56.420 Because the why behind a command can tell us,

00:42:59.540 was something just cultural?

00:43:01.260 Was something just true for that time and in that place?

00:43:05.240 Or is the why behind something still true today?

00:43:09.440 And if it's still true today,

00:43:10.800 then what comes before that for or therefore or because is still applicable to us today.

00:43:16.500 So when we read in this verse that whoever sheds the blood of man,

00:43:19.560 by man shall his blood be shed for God made man in his own image.

00:43:24.660 The answer to does this still apply today because is it still true today is yes.

00:43:29.920 God still makes us in his image.

00:43:32.560 We are still made in God's image.

00:43:34.720 So we read right there that the reason for the death penalty for murder

00:43:39.300 is because of the value of human beings.

00:43:42.300 And the value of human beings as image bearers of God has not changed.

00:43:45.380 Then that means that that is still a good punishment for murder.

00:43:48.980 That doesn't mean that it has to always be the punishment for murder.

00:43:52.640 We do see throughout Scripture that God gives mercy to certain people,

00:43:56.380 but that doesn't negate the rule.

00:43:59.280 That doesn't negate the command.

00:44:00.740 God actually gives the death penalty for a variety of crimes in ancient Israel.

00:44:05.480 But we as Christians don't have to abide by all of the ceremonial and cleansing laws of ancient Israel

00:44:11.320 because Jesus has become our cleansing.

00:44:13.940 He has become our sacrifice.

00:44:16.180 But the moral law is what Jesus upheld.

00:44:19.540 He actually doubled down on the moral law.

00:44:22.200 He doubled down on the Ten Commandments in so many ways by saying it's not just about what you do.

00:44:26.640 It's also about what's in your heart.

00:44:28.100 And we see this principle here in Genesis 9, not just in the Old Testament,

00:44:33.300 and not just rooted in something that is a creation order issue,

00:44:37.740 but something that is still true today, but we also see it reflected in the New Testament.

00:44:41.180 In Romans 13, we read that the government is instituted by God to bear the sword against the evildoer.

00:44:47.940 That's not just an analogy.

00:44:49.820 That is a symbol of execution.

00:44:52.280 That is a God-ordained government directive to restrain evil and punish those who are doing good.

00:45:00.500 And for those who say, well, you know, the Bible says, Ten Commandments say thou shall not kill.

00:45:05.500 No, the Bible doesn't say thou shall not kill.

00:45:07.420 The Bible says thou shall not murder.

00:45:09.320 And murder and killing aren't the same thing.

00:45:11.540 If you are killing someone in self-defense, that's not murder.

00:45:14.600 If it is a just war and you are killing someone, that is not murder.

00:45:18.740 Obviously, we can see that throughout the Old Testament, that there is an instruction by God,

00:45:23.260 in some cases, for the killing of an enemy.

00:45:28.440 And so killing and murder are not the same things.

00:45:31.420 We see that murder is punishable by death because people are made in God's image.

00:45:36.120 So I am actually pro-life for the same reason that I am pro-death penalty,

00:45:41.360 because I care about innocent life,

00:45:43.620 because human beings are so important and so valuable

00:45:47.640 that the crime of killing one of us is so hefty

00:45:51.220 that the only commensurate punishment for it is execution.

00:45:56.540 So you could say that you're against the death penalty today.

00:46:00.720 You could say that you don't like how our justice system works.

00:46:03.900 You could say, oh, I don't like that there's a possibility

00:46:06.380 of accidentally getting the wrong guy.

00:46:08.240 I don't want to give the government that power.

00:46:09.920 And I would still argue with you on that,

00:46:12.000 because God's standard for justice is not perfection.

00:46:16.520 It's not a perfect governmental system.

00:46:18.960 There are checks and balances.

00:46:20.440 There is an establishment of eyewitness testimony.

00:46:23.340 There is due process.

00:46:24.440 We see all of that in the Old Testament.

00:46:26.340 But a government doesn't actually have to be perfect in order to restrain evil.

00:46:30.320 And so today, there is still, I would say,

00:46:37.100 total justification and defense for death penalty for murder.

00:46:40.080 But even if you said that you don't agree with it being applied today,

00:46:44.020 being against the death penalty per se,

00:46:46.920 being against the death penalty in principle,

00:46:49.780 because you think it's cruel, is calling God cruel.

00:46:52.840 Because he demanded the death penalty for a variety of crimes.

00:46:56.620 And as I say so often, as was with my last conversation face-to-face with Charlie,

00:47:03.480 like we talked about, you cannot be nicer than God.

00:47:06.800 You're not nicer than God.

00:47:08.360 You're not more compassionate than him.

00:47:10.060 You're not more merciful than him.

00:47:11.360 So if God says something, and God is love, 1 John 4, 8,

00:47:14.620 then the most loving thing we can do is agree with him.

00:47:19.800 I also am very offended by, and I think you should be too as a pro-lifer, 1.00

00:47:24.240 whether you're a Catholic or Protestant, the conflation of killing a brutal murderer

00:47:31.720 on death row and poisoning and dismembering an innocent baby inside the womb,

00:47:37.740 as if those two things are the same.

00:47:39.760 And I was very appreciative of Matt Walsh, who is Catholic, calling this out, 1.00

00:47:44.420 that this is not moral clarity.

00:47:47.020 This is not moral strength.

00:47:48.720 This is not biblically true.

00:47:50.400 This is not just.

00:47:52.100 This is not wise.

00:47:53.760 Like, it is just not in alignment with what is good and right and true

00:47:57.460 to conflate the just execution of someone who has received due process

00:48:03.740 and has been proven to be a brutal murderer, many times a rapist,

00:48:08.080 and the execution of an unborn child.

00:48:10.920 You know, sometimes the same chemical combination, potassium chloride,

00:48:14.220 is used for both.

00:48:15.560 And to say that both of those things are the same,

00:48:17.840 like you instinctively know that's not true,

00:48:19.900 but you should also biblically understand that's not true.

00:48:22.240 Because this child is legally innocent,

00:48:25.040 this person who is being punished for his crime is not innocent.

00:48:30.080 And then I also hear the argument, well, you know,

00:48:32.800 what if God was going to redeem them?

00:48:34.900 Shouldn't we give them as much time as possible to be saved?

00:48:39.480 And like, you know, shouldn't Jesus says to turn the other cheek?

00:48:42.780 Actually, I'll separate those two arguments.

00:48:44.520 Shouldn't we give them enough time to be saved and hear the gospel?

00:48:47.000 What I think is just, if someone either raped or murdered someone,

00:48:52.940 I think that they should get the death penalty after due process,

00:48:56.380 after being proven guilty.

00:48:57.360 If you want to say that you need eyewitness testimony,

00:48:59.800 if you want to say you need DNA evidence, I'm okay with that.

00:49:02.460 I want the threshold to be high.

00:49:03.980 But after they've been proven guilty by an unbiased jury, okay?

00:49:08.800 That's not the government's power.

00:49:10.320 That's like due process power.

00:49:11.880 However, I think that they should hear the gospel.

00:49:15.840 I think that they should be given the opportunities to respond. 0.95

00:49:18.840 And then I think they should be executed quickly. 0.81

00:49:21.040 Like, I think actually what is unjust about the death penalty 0.56

00:49:23.880 is that it's used so arbitrarily and that it's not used consistently enough.

00:49:27.820 That the standard clearly isn't consistent

00:49:29.600 and that we wait years and years for someone to be executed.

00:49:33.080 Justice delayed is justice denied, I would say.

00:49:36.740 And that you never know if someone's going to get the death penalty

00:49:39.180 and you can always plea down and you can plea insanity

00:49:41.940 just because a brutal serial killer like had a 60 IQ.

00:49:45.600 Oh, all of a sudden they should be given three square meals

00:49:48.960 on the taxpayer dime for the rest of their life.

00:49:51.140 No, that is unjust.

00:49:53.840 I do think they should get the opportunity to hear the gospel.

00:49:57.100 But listen, God is sovereign.

00:49:58.920 Nothing's going to thwart his plans.

00:50:01.320 He's not going to be like, oh, dang it. 0.71

00:50:02.580 I was just about to save him and they killed him.

00:50:05.120 Like, that's not how God works.

00:50:06.660 Like, you know, God is powerful, right?

00:50:07.960 And he can do whatever he wants.

00:50:09.560 He's not like waiting for a certain day to save someone.

00:50:12.120 He just can't do it before then

00:50:13.400 because the American government is just too powerful.

00:50:15.840 And if they had just waited to execute that person,

00:50:17.740 then maybe God would have gotten them.

00:50:19.320 That's not how salvation works.

00:50:21.420 Like, Job 42 too, nothing can thwart his plan.

00:50:23.920 God is going to save who he is going to save.

00:50:26.780 So I'm not persuaded by that.

00:50:29.500 And then I'll get to this last argument.

00:50:32.140 But Jesus told us to turn the other cheek in just a second.

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00:51:22.680 Okay, this other argument that,

00:51:29.920 well, Jesus said to turn the other cheek.

00:51:32.160 Look, Jesus was talking about our interpersonal relationships.

00:51:35.220 He was not talking to the government.

00:51:37.120 And by that logic,

00:51:38.160 if you think Jesus saying that we should forgive,

00:51:40.380 that we should turn the other cheek,

00:51:42.340 is a dictate for the government,

00:51:44.820 then we shouldn't have prisons either.

00:51:47.060 We shouldn't have law enforcement.

00:51:49.060 We shouldn't punish any crime in any way.

00:51:51.800 Because if your belief is that

00:51:54.440 we should always turn the other cheek

00:51:55.780 when people murder or people rape

00:51:57.200 or people assault or people steal,

00:51:59.640 well, then we shouldn't put them in jail either.

00:52:02.320 But clearly, that wouldn't be good for society.

00:52:04.420 That wouldn't be a way to love our neighbor.

00:52:06.340 That wouldn't reflect the order

00:52:07.740 that we see all the way from Genesis,

00:52:10.600 all the way through.

00:52:11.780 That would put very vulnerable people at risk.

00:52:14.720 And again, going back to Romans 13,

00:52:17.440 the government does not bear the sword in vain.

00:52:20.900 Now, if the government was just supposed to like,

00:52:23.580 I don't know, slap people on the wrist

00:52:25.240 when they did something wrong,

00:52:26.440 why do you think God through Paul

00:52:27.780 would use that language of a symbol of execution

00:52:30.160 in the sword?

00:52:31.880 Of course, like there is violence

00:52:34.080 that comes with breaking the law,

00:52:36.800 especially when it comes to assaulting

00:52:38.260 an image bearer of God,

00:52:39.240 not because God is cruel,

00:52:40.620 but because God is so merciful.

00:52:42.320 He cares about us.

00:52:43.720 Like he cares about victims and potential victims.

00:52:46.340 He also cares about the accused,

00:52:47.740 which is why he had so many rights and protections

00:52:49.800 for them in the Old Testament too,

00:52:51.420 which we really rely on

00:52:53.040 in setting up our justice system.

00:52:55.620 So I take offense.

00:52:57.620 The Bible takes offense

00:52:58.700 to this like papal comment

00:53:02.040 that the death penalty is not pro-life.

00:53:05.680 Like I know people will say, 0.94

00:53:07.400 oh, you're so like arrogant to believe that. 0.68

00:53:09.860 You're not calling me arrogant. 0.93

00:53:11.800 That's, you think you're nicer than God, I guess.

00:53:15.020 I don't want to be there.

00:53:16.400 Like that's self-idolatry.

00:53:17.980 I'm going to defer to God on that one, I think.

00:53:20.880 And then, you know,

00:53:22.020 he goes on to say

00:53:22.800 the inhumane treatment of immigrants, 0.99

00:53:24.360 which I agree,

00:53:25.420 inhumanely mistreating anyone is bad.

00:53:28.920 But I would like to know specifics there.

00:53:30.820 Like, are you talking about deportation?

00:53:32.800 Are you talking about not letting people

00:53:34.200 into our country?

00:53:36.060 Because again, countries were God's idea.

00:53:39.020 Laws were God's idea. 1.00

00:53:40.180 Borders were God's idea. 0.99

00:53:41.260 Sovereignty was God's idea.

00:53:42.360 God wants order for societies to survive and thrive.

00:53:48.860 In Jeremiah 29, the exiles in Babylon were told,

00:53:54.260 hey, seek the welfare of the city

00:53:56.120 that I've placed you in.

00:53:57.060 We Christians who are exiles here on earth

00:53:58.960 are to seek the welfare of the city

00:54:00.520 that God has placed us in.

00:54:02.420 And conservative Catholics,

00:54:04.080 many of you have reached out to me

00:54:05.160 to say that you appreciate these comments.

00:54:06.980 I know I'm going to get some angry comments,

00:54:08.340 but a lot of you who are conservative Catholics

00:54:10.380 have also reached out to me and said

00:54:11.960 that you are in total agreement.

00:54:14.160 And I appreciate that a lot.

00:54:16.080 I know it's not always easy to call out your own side,

00:54:18.800 if you will, and the people who are in charge,

00:54:20.440 especially in the Catholic Church.

00:54:21.660 But a lot of Catholics are very disturbed 1.00

00:54:23.800 by, it seems, that Dick Durbin,

00:54:27.800 who is a pro-abortion Democrat,

00:54:31.140 that he is kind of like getting a pass

00:54:34.320 from the Pope.

00:54:37.720 Like all of this,

00:54:38.820 the clip that we played earlier

00:54:40.540 is in context of Pope Leo being asked

00:54:43.180 about Dick Durbin receiving this award,

00:54:46.340 potentially from a Chicago Cardinal,

00:54:48.560 Blaise Kupik, maybe that's how you say it,

00:54:50.640 his plan to honor Senator Dick Durbin

00:54:52.340 for his work on immigrant human rights issues.

00:54:54.820 Dick Durbin is a big pro-abortion Democrat

00:54:57.560 in the Senate,

00:54:59.500 and people were asking him about this

00:55:01.400 because, of course, the Catholic Church

00:55:03.400 is extremely clear about abortion.

00:55:04.960 The Bible is extremely clear about abortion,

00:55:06.520 and some of the staunchest pro-life advocates

00:55:08.720 I know are Catholic.

00:55:10.440 And so this should be disappointing.

00:55:12.320 Like, I think it's very healthy and very good

00:55:14.500 when I see Catholics who are willing to say, 1.00

00:55:17.060 Pope, like, you're not correct.

00:55:19.900 That it's just not right.

00:55:21.080 It's just not right to honor someone

00:55:22.600 who believes in the legal right

00:55:24.780 to slaughter unborn children. 0.86

00:55:27.200 And like, the Pope should be 0.99

00:55:28.280 1,000% clear on that.

00:55:29.940 Again, that's not a nuanced issue.

00:55:32.260 Look, I just want to say, like,

00:55:34.320 I see a lot of the same issues

00:55:35.980 in evangelicalism and Catholicism.

00:55:38.100 This, like, third-wayism, 0.96

00:55:40.040 this overemphasis on nuance

00:55:42.660 that is really just, like,

00:55:45.740 confusion masquerading as intellectualism.

00:55:49.020 Okay?

00:55:49.420 They're just morally confused.

00:55:51.620 And that's why the Bible is so amazing.

00:55:53.920 Because the Bible doesn't tell us in detail

00:55:55.520 every single thing that we should think

00:55:57.740 about every single thing.

00:55:59.000 But it gives us so much clarity

00:56:00.880 on the created order issues,

00:56:03.120 on abortion, on gender, on marriage,

00:56:05.380 and all of that.

00:56:06.280 Like, it's really not confusing.

00:56:08.060 It's all in the first chapter

00:56:09.480 of the first book of the Bible.

00:56:11.100 And praise God for that.

00:56:13.020 And hopefully we can at least unite

00:56:16.020 on the belief that God's ways are better

00:56:19.380 and God's word is trustworthy.

00:56:21.460 And even when we disagree,

00:56:23.240 we can all go back to that

00:56:24.840 to tell us what's true.

00:56:26.280 All right.

00:56:26.600 That's all we've got time for today.

00:56:28.120 We will be back here on Friday.

00:56:29.200 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 08, 2025

Ep 1251 ｜ ‘Doesn't Give Martyr’： A Response to Jackie Hill Perry’s Charlie Kirk Comments

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