Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1261 ｜ Lies Your Therapist Tells You ｜ Greg Gifford

00:00:00.360 Your therapist is lying to you, and they might actually be making you feel worse.

00:00:07.380 Today, we are going to discuss the difference between an actual biblical counselor and what

00:00:13.300 God's Word says about mental illness, and secular psychology, which tells you to focus 0.62

00:00:21.600 on the self and actually may enlarge the problems in your life.

00:00:26.660 This is a fascinating and super encouraging discussion with a licensed biblical counselor

00:00:32.560 and the author of the book, Lies My Therapist Told Me.

00:00:37.920 Dr. Gifford is an incredible resource when it comes to the biblical understanding of the

00:00:44.160 mind and the brain.

00:00:45.820 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:49.040 Go to goodranchers.com.

00:00:50.180 Use code Allie at checkout. 1.00

00:00:51.300 That's goodranchers.com, code Allie.

00:00:56.660 Dr. Gifford, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:05.900 Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

00:01:08.260 Yep.

00:01:08.620 Well, thank you for having me, first of all.

00:01:10.520 My name is Greg Gifford, and I'm a professor at the Master's University in Southern California.

00:01:15.720 I teach primarily in the School of Biblical Studies, but we do languages, theology, biblical

00:01:23.460 studies, and biblical counseling is my specific emphasis.

00:01:27.820 So it's like a field where we use the Bible to try to help people in the counseling process,

00:01:32.960 and I'm sure we'll talk more about that.

00:01:34.820 Yes.

00:01:35.180 I also am a pastor at Faith Community Church in Santa Clarita.

00:01:40.520 I've been there for 12, almost 13 years.

00:01:43.480 I love that fellowship, and that's my people.

00:01:47.240 Yeah.

00:01:48.160 And I think probably the best thing, like the personal stuff, is I married my high school

00:01:52.560 sweetheart, and we've been together 20 years with three boys.

00:01:56.740 That is awesome.

00:01:57.560 Okay, so Dr. John MacArthur was on this show a couple times, and he made waves a few years

00:02:04.600 ago, and he probably said this multiple times, whenever he would talk about psychology or

00:02:09.640 psychiatry, and he would talk about things like depression, anxiety, PTSD, and all of

00:02:14.420 that.

00:02:14.860 Right.

00:02:15.160 And of course, he believed that there were spiritual applications and spiritual remedies

00:02:20.780 that could be given to someone, and also really criticize secular psychology, since

00:02:26.300 psychologists typically, in general, deny the existence of a soul.

00:02:30.760 Right.

00:02:31.060 They don't have the fullness of understanding of what a person made in the image of God

00:02:34.520 needs.

00:02:35.180 Right.

00:02:35.560 What is your take on that, as someone who is an expert in biblical counseling?

00:02:39.060 You've also talked and written a lot about things like PTSD.

00:02:41.840 Right.

00:02:41.940 How should we think of that?

00:02:43.480 Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of categories in that.

00:02:45.700 First of all is the reality of what's being called mental illness, and you have to think

00:02:52.140 through, can your mind get ill, and the ubiquitous nature, so it's everywhere.

00:02:58.880 What we're facing right now is an epidemic of one out of five people are diagnosed with

00:03:05.920 a mental illness.

00:03:06.800 One out of five.

00:03:07.600 The top are depression, anxiety, ADHD.

00:03:10.600 Mm-hmm.

00:03:11.060 So as a Christian, to be discerning, we have to say, what really goes into that?

00:03:17.320 Like, what is depression, biblically speaking, or what is anxiety, biblically speaking?

00:03:22.880 Are they diseases of your mind, and what is your mind?

00:03:26.960 Yeah.

00:03:27.560 So that, for the listener and for us, like, we just have to start to say, okay, so is

00:03:32.580 depression a medical issue, or is there something else that could be contributing to it?

00:03:37.320 Mm-hmm.

00:03:38.160 Is anxiety a medical issue, a disease that needs treatment, or is there something else

00:03:43.200 that could be going into that?

00:03:44.840 Yeah.

00:03:45.480 And that's the first category of that conversation, and that's where I've tried to speak truth

00:03:50.600 graciously from the Word.

00:03:52.180 There are people that are suffering, and we want them to hear the truth of Scripture that

00:03:55.620 can set you free.

00:03:56.720 Mm-hmm.

00:03:57.660 The second is the category of psychologists that you mentioned.

00:04:00.640 And this should be really weird to a believer, that I would go to an unbelieving therapist 0.99

00:04:07.160 who doesn't believe in the soul, doesn't believe in the gospel, doesn't believe in redemption,

00:04:12.120 forgiveness, and I would go to them with the most personal details of my life.

00:04:16.460 Mm-hmm.

00:04:17.080 And it's like, wait a minute.

00:04:18.400 They have some fundamental worldview problems.

00:04:21.240 Right.

00:04:21.960 How am I going to be truly helped, like, helped at the root level?

00:04:25.720 Mm-hmm.

00:04:26.120 So Dr. MacArthur did, at times, he critiqued that whole ball of wax.

00:04:33.880 Yeah.

00:04:34.340 And what I've tried to do is to parse out, okay, which category do you want to talk about?

00:04:38.460 Is it the mental illness stuff?

00:04:40.120 Is it, do Christians go to secular therapists?

00:04:43.040 Mm-hmm.

00:04:43.580 And in each of those, the Bible is the answer.

00:04:45.920 So trying to point people back to what does the Scripture say, and for a lot of believers,

00:04:50.180 we're kind of fed up with the secular therapeutic, like, wedging its way into my life and then

00:04:58.460 wedging its way into my kids' life.

00:05:00.120 So we're wanting better answers right now, and I think the Bible has those answers.

00:05:04.120 Yeah.

00:05:04.720 Do you distinguish between the mind and the brain?

00:05:07.200 Oh, please.

00:05:08.260 Oh, absolutely.

00:05:09.300 Like, that is my mantra, and I appreciate you asking the question.

00:05:13.480 So absolutely, as the mind and the brain go, as your understanding of the mind and brain go,

00:05:19.320 so goes your treatment of all the mental illness and mental health issues.

00:05:24.760 So biblically, it's really easy to settle, and most Christians are familiar with Romans 12, verse 2.

00:05:33.860 Read it to us.

00:05:34.720 Yeah, please.

00:05:35.780 I brought the word that I spilled coffee on yesterday.

00:05:37.880 Is that the renewing of the mind verse?

00:05:40.500 Yeah.

00:05:40.640 I love this verse because most Christians are familiar with it.

00:05:43.100 Like, take us back to our Awana days, and here it is.

00:05:46.880 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind,

00:05:50.940 that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

00:05:57.460 Okay, so God is actually transforming Christians presently, and that is the work of sanctification. 0.61

00:06:03.640 Here it says, by the renewal of your mind, the reconformity back, the restoration.

00:06:10.100 But mind here is the immaterial mind.

00:06:14.880 It is the seat of your intellect and cognition.

00:06:17.620 It's where reason and thoughts come from.

00:06:20.520 What is God actually doing when you were saved and when I was saved?

00:06:25.380 God is capacitating us and our minds to be renewed and transformed.

00:06:29.760 But our brains are different from our minds.

00:06:34.100 Our brains are part of our outer person.

00:06:36.580 They are housed in our cranium.

00:06:39.540 We can study them like any other organ, but your brain and your mind are not the same thing.

00:06:46.160 And biblically, what's God doing here?

00:06:48.740 He is not renewing your brain.

00:06:51.280 He is renewing your mind.

00:06:52.700 And this is an odd thought, but it's true.

00:06:54.920 Yeah.

00:06:55.160 We're both in our 30s.

00:06:57.380 Our brains are deteriorating.

00:06:59.700 Mine probably faster than yours.

00:07:01.400 And when we think of the way that the outer man can waste away, my brain can deteriorate and my mind can be renewed, even though I may have an organ of my brain issue.

00:07:16.100 So Christians have to start to think through brain versus mind. 1.00

00:07:21.260 What are we talking about, first of all?

00:07:23.200 And then you can start to connect the dots to chemical imbalances, mental illnesses or diseases.

00:07:30.000 Is this an issue of my brain or is this probably more an issue of my mind?

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00:09:13.080 If we were to think of the brain and the mind as two circles, like in a Venn diagram,

00:09:20.440 there's a lot of overlap between the brain and the mind too, right?

00:09:24.120 So I'm kind of putting you on the spot here.

00:09:26.500 And you can tell me if this is not how you would organize it or not how you would think of it.

00:09:30.900 Brain, mind, two different entities.

00:09:33.080 But a lot of what is in our mind is housed in the brain, right?

00:09:37.180 What would you say is a component of the brain that's just the brain?

00:09:40.500 What would you say is a component of the mind that's just the mind?

00:09:43.080 And what is in that middle part that the brain and the mind share?

00:09:46.820 Does that make sense?

00:09:48.200 Yeah, it does.

00:09:48.880 So what does the mind do?

00:09:50.480 Let's start with that.

00:09:51.580 The mind is immaterial.

00:09:53.580 Your mind will continue to exist after your brain has deceased.

00:09:57.640 So when I am brain dead, there are diagnosable criteria to establish that.

00:10:03.700 My mind will continue to exist until the resurrection.

00:10:06.120 So then practically we know my brain is not the source of my thinking.

00:10:10.800 I almost wish it were because you could like medicate it or you could treat it.

00:10:16.340 But my brain is not the source of my thinking.

00:10:18.340 That comes from our immaterial person.

00:10:21.040 So just consider the implications of that for a second.

00:10:23.480 It's like your reason, your intellect, all of that comes from your mind.

00:10:28.340 But we do have the science of the brain that tells us how thoughts are formed

00:10:32.900 and how memories are formed, right?

00:10:34.500 Yeah, can they demonstrate causation?

00:10:37.960 Or does the brain respond to what the mind is doing, chicken or the egg?

00:10:42.840 Okay.

00:10:43.440 Right?

00:10:43.660 Think about that.

00:10:44.280 You know, I think I understood this more.

00:10:45.960 I remember as a child thinking about the people who don't believe in a soul

00:10:51.200 and don't believe in God.

00:10:52.700 And I remember having this just like, it just hit me.

00:10:57.060 How could you not believe this?

00:10:58.260 Because then who would I be?

00:10:59.820 I wouldn't have this personality.

00:11:01.340 I wouldn't be who I am without a soul.

00:11:05.620 And I kind of had forgotten about that, but it almost seems like that's what you're saying.

00:11:10.180 Are you saying that the mind and the spirit are two very similar things, if not the same thing?

00:11:15.140 Right.

00:11:15.460 I am.

00:11:16.000 Okay.

00:11:16.220 Because that's, first of all, it doesn't matter what I say, but that's what the Bible says.

00:11:20.380 Yeah.

00:11:20.600 The Bible's going to say your soul, your spirit, your mind, and your heart are all part of your

00:11:26.640 immaterial person.

00:11:27.660 Yeah.

00:11:28.180 And the most used term is heart, especially in the Old Testament.

00:11:31.780 So your entirety of your immaterial person uses those terms interchangeably.

00:11:37.460 And I am not a person who thinks you can divide them out.

00:11:40.260 I know some people it's dichotomy or trichotomy or something like that.

00:11:43.300 But it seems like the Bible is more talking about your inner man versus your outer man.

00:11:48.780 So your inner man is the source of those things.

00:11:51.100 And it's just, so it's easy.

00:11:52.120 So like if I died right now, my brain would cease to work, but my mind would still be functioning

00:11:58.640 in my soul, in my immaterial soul as I'm in the presence of the Lord, 2 Corinthians 5.

00:12:03.400 So the brain then, like what is the brain?

00:12:07.540 Well, I do my best not to dabble in medical science.

00:12:11.460 So I'll try to stay at like the 30,000 foot category, but it is that organ that is responding

00:12:16.460 to your inner person.

00:12:17.820 It's the control center of your outer man.

00:12:20.860 It's like your physical heart in that way.

00:12:24.920 So what is it doing?

00:12:27.060 It's not causing my thoughts.

00:12:29.680 It's not determining my thoughts.

00:12:31.500 It is more like a filter biblically of what is happening in my thinking.

00:12:38.280 So this was a fascinating thing to me.

00:12:40.040 I was talking with a guy after an ACBC conference and he had to use sign language.

00:12:47.120 I don't speak ASL.

00:12:48.860 There's a translator in between us and I didn't do a good job of articulating what does the

00:12:53.140 brain do?

00:12:53.640 And he said, but what about Alzheimer's, dementia, traumatic brain injuries?

00:12:57.920 Like what about those Gifford?

00:12:59.140 And I was like, well, what those are is those are your brain is damaged and it is affecting

00:13:07.300 or influencing the way that your mind expresses itself, but it's not causing it.

00:13:13.040 Causation comes from the mind.

00:13:14.680 So can you experience a concussion or a TBI or something and it influences the way that

00:13:20.960 your mind is expressing itself?

00:13:22.500 No problem.

00:13:23.980 Or maybe we've kind of met that person in Alzheimer's where they start to become kind of mean or agitated.

00:13:32.960 Biblically, they were that all along.

00:13:34.820 And what Alzheimer's is doing is removing the filter.

00:13:38.560 What dementia is doing is removing that filter of your brain.

00:13:41.900 So where does it come from?

00:13:43.660 Biblically, where does it come from?

00:13:44.760 It comes from your inner person.

00:13:46.640 And the outer person is rested well, unrested.

00:13:51.360 Your physical body is healthy, prepared, unhealthy.

00:13:55.200 Yeah, I see the wheels turning.

00:13:56.740 So what you got?

00:13:57.380 Well, I'm curious about that.

00:13:59.580 And I don't have as much expertise as you do, but different things like dementia and Alzheimer's,

00:14:05.800 I mean, things that happen in our brain can affect the things, I think, can affect the things that we say.

00:14:11.120 I know that hormones can affect our moods and can even affect our perception of things

00:14:15.960 so that we react in a particular way that might not be in alignment with the Bible

00:14:19.900 or in alignment with reality.

00:14:21.760 So when you say the person who with Alzheimer's becomes irritable and that was who they were all along,

00:14:29.580 it's hard for me to believe that that is necessarily true.

00:14:35.400 Maybe it is true in some cases, but is there not something about Alzheimer's

00:14:40.260 that would make a very typically sweet and kind person just that it would irritate something in them

00:14:47.020 that would actually make them seem more bitter than they actually are?

00:14:50.680 Does that necessarily mean that their mind is...

00:14:54.540 Totally.

00:14:55.220 Let me share a couple of thoughts with you, then answer that directly.

00:15:00.360 So where does our thinking come from?

00:15:02.900 You know, the Bible teaches the mind.

00:15:05.180 Where does our actions come from?

00:15:07.060 Proverbs 4.23, our heart.

00:15:09.640 So we guard it, we keep it from it for the wellsprings of life.

00:15:15.240 What's the epicenter of why I do what I do?

00:15:17.680 It's my immaterial self.

00:15:19.340 And I have to reckon with that.

00:15:20.660 But to your point, can those physiological things be an extreme encouragement?

00:15:27.720 Absolutely.

00:15:28.840 Like absolutely.

00:15:29.440 Can Alzheimer's, dementia, hormones, even sleeplessness, poor nutrition, pain,

00:15:35.580 can those things be an encouragement?

00:15:37.900 Yes.

00:15:38.200 But those things are never the determiner because my actions, my emotions, or think of my words,

00:15:47.500 those are all an overflow of what's coming from my heart and my inner person.

00:15:51.620 So I want to make sure that we give a space and say, yeah, totally.

00:15:55.740 A person can be really, really, really, really encouraged to be irritable.

00:16:01.340 By a physiological force.

00:16:03.220 By a physiological thing.

00:16:04.500 Totally.

00:16:04.720 But not caused if we're using anger in the biblical, if we're using irritability as anger

00:16:12.180 in the biblical context, a Christian cannot be caused to sin by their body.

00:16:17.660 Right.

00:16:18.720 Okay.

00:16:19.440 Interesting.

00:16:20.120 I never heard it.

00:16:20.880 I never heard it described like that.

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00:17:37.320 Why is this differentiation between the mind and the brain so important for how Christians 1.00

00:17:47.140 understand things like depression or PTSD?

00:17:49.660 Yeah, good.

00:17:51.740 Because in 20, whatever we're in now, 2025, we can thank Darwin for naturalism becoming

00:18:00.700 the dominant Western worldview and everything has a medical explanation and we default to

00:18:07.940 body must have an issue and we don't always default to what's happening in my inner person

00:18:14.080 and my soul.

00:18:15.980 So we have medical sounding terminology that is starting to be used of an immaterial entity,

00:18:21.740 which is our mind, mental illness or mental disease.

00:18:26.960 Yeah.

00:18:27.060 But think of it this way, Allie, and those watching, when you go to a psychiatrist, what

00:18:33.400 type of medicine do they actually do?

00:18:35.640 Just like, don't trust me, Google it, go to a psychiatrist.

00:18:40.280 Seriously, they're going to have you verbally describe what's taking place and they are not

00:18:47.640 empirically diagnosing you based off of vitamin deficiencies, brain scans.

00:18:52.340 So you can leave a medical doctor's office with a medically sounding label about your mind

00:18:59.940 and there was no medicine that was practiced to diagnose you for that.

00:19:04.560 That's a really good point.

00:19:06.260 And I've had a lot of people on who are skeptical about this whole chemical imbalance thing that

00:19:10.620 we hear like a serotonin deficiency, but they're never measuring that.

00:19:15.920 Like they're not doing blood work to say, oh, yep, you're low on serotonin.

00:19:19.680 You talk to someone and they tell you.

00:19:22.280 And like, what other form of illness do we have where the doctor is like, oh, I can just

00:19:27.480 hear it in your voice.

00:19:28.880 You're vitamin D deficient.

00:19:30.560 Like no doctor does that.

00:19:31.900 They test your blood.

00:19:33.420 100%.

00:19:33.860 But for mental illness, they just, I don't know, feel it in your aura, which is superstitious.

00:19:39.460 Right.

00:19:39.740 So if you were like, hey, doctor, I think I have thyroid issues.

00:19:42.680 Right.

00:19:43.160 Then they would be like, okay, well, let's look.

00:19:45.740 And then they're going to test.

00:19:46.660 But when you go to a psychiatrist and you say, hey, I think I'm depressed, they're going

00:19:50.280 to say, well, do you feel sad?

00:19:52.240 Yeah.

00:19:52.420 Do you struggle with motivation?

00:19:53.760 And it's like, wait, wait a minute.

00:19:55.000 You're a medical doctor.

00:19:56.180 Like, don't you want to do a scan?

00:19:57.920 Don't you want to study my brain?

00:19:59.700 Yeah.

00:19:59.840 You want to look at neurotransmitters?

00:20:02.160 So we're, how did, the real question is like, how did we become okay with that?

00:20:07.160 Right.

00:20:07.620 Because that's more interesting.

00:20:08.520 Like, why don't we just laugh at that person doing that?

00:20:10.980 And that gets back to the naturalistic worldview that we start with, that we think in terms

00:20:16.080 of there must be a body problem.

00:20:19.140 This medically trained doctor is telling me that I have an illness of my mind or a disease

00:20:25.000 of my mind.

00:20:25.840 So I must have that.

00:20:28.280 Yeah.

00:20:29.020 That's interesting.

00:20:29.960 And it's actually a lot more dangerous to give someone potentially psychosis inducing

00:20:34.960 drugs than it is to give someone thyroid medication that they don't need.

00:20:39.500 And yet we accept that it's totally scientifically a viable option.

00:20:45.360 Right.

00:20:45.580 Or think of our kids too.

00:20:47.240 Yeah.

00:20:47.920 School psychologist says, I think they have this thing.

00:20:51.080 Usually for guys, it's ADHD.

00:20:53.400 And it's like, for girls, it's anxiety.

00:20:56.240 And then now all of a sudden, like we have no medical evidence, no medical testing, no

00:20:59.720 medical proof.

00:21:00.480 And now I'm putting my kids on psychotropics and I haven't just paused to think like, wait

00:21:06.540 a minute, like how did they actually diagnose?

00:21:09.100 And how do they know this is a problem of the body and not the immaterial self?

00:21:13.820 Like that is the crisis that we're at.

00:21:15.740 So how could we not have diagnoses growing?

00:21:20.440 Right.

00:21:20.840 How could we not have children being diagnosed as early as three, four years old with mental

00:21:26.020 illness?

00:21:26.340 Like how could you not?

00:21:27.660 Because you have no objective criteria by which you can diagnose mental illnesses.

00:21:32.620 Yeah.

00:21:33.120 That's so interesting.

00:21:34.080 And another consequence of the psychology world in general, just not believing in the

00:21:39.900 soul and not believing in at least a higher power and objective morality is that everything

00:21:45.400 goes back to the self.

00:21:47.920 Like everything goes back to like, you are both the problem and the solution at the same

00:21:52.500 time, which is completely illogical.

00:21:54.600 And I'm wondering what you think about this.

00:21:57.060 I saw this quote in East of Eden, the John Steinbeck book for those out there who don't

00:22:01.780 know that.

00:22:02.360 And he was talking to someone who was very depressed after they had a loved one die.

00:22:07.180 And he said, I'm paraphrasing, but basically you have to go about your life as if it is

00:22:13.740 a play.

00:22:14.500 You don't feel it, but you have to do what you have to do.

00:22:17.300 And eventually it will become real.

00:22:18.820 And I just thought how different that is from most of psychology, which tells you that the

00:22:23.600 most important thing is to like be authentic, to feel what you really feel, and then to

00:22:28.240 tell people how you really feel and to constantly focus on your emotion.

00:22:31.880 And that's the only way to heal.

00:22:33.020 That's the only way to get better.

00:22:34.700 It's all about empowering the self, knowing the self, discovering the self, and like presenting

00:22:40.980 the true self to the world.

00:22:42.600 And East of Eden is not the Bible, but I just thought maybe that does just go to show how

00:22:49.300 wrong we've been when it comes to healing and dealing with the brokenness inside ourselves

00:22:54.200 and the world.

00:22:55.040 Maybe the self can't be both the problem and the solution.

00:22:58.120 Yeah, we can definitely be the problem for sure.

00:23:00.700 Yeah, but at the same time.

00:23:02.140 Yeah.

00:23:02.640 Yeah.

00:23:03.300 Yeah, that's humanism.

00:23:05.640 And so now, okay, so unbelieving psychologist doesn't believe in God, doesn't believe in

00:23:10.600 Jesus, doesn't believe in the gospel, what is it that they're going to help a believer

00:23:15.480 do?

00:23:16.340 Seriously, like just let's make it that easy.

00:23:19.820 Focus on yourself and your problem.

00:23:23.980 Now, iatrogenesis, think of iatrogenic, I can create my own problems unintentionally.

00:23:30.860 You want to create your own problems?

00:23:32.920 Focus on how you feel every day.

00:23:35.720 The Bible sets us free from self-worship.

00:23:39.000 Lovers of self, 2 Timothy 3.

00:23:42.740 Oh, I got to read this for you.

00:23:44.020 Okay.

00:23:45.820 In the end times, they will be lovers of self.

00:23:48.920 That's the only place we see self-love.

00:23:50.860 Thank you.

00:23:51.760 It's an indication of evil.

00:23:53.160 Right.

00:23:53.500 So instead of saying self-love is the remedy, think of it as the problem that I'm trying

00:23:59.740 to repent of.

00:24:00.760 So the days are going to get worse, Timothy, you be faithful, hold fast to the word, people

00:24:07.760 will be lovers of pleasure, lovers of self.

00:24:10.880 Okay.

00:24:11.140 So then carefully start to think that through.

00:24:13.600 If my therapist counselor is telling me to love myself more and they're trying to make

00:24:18.900 me the solution here, I'm going to be more miserable.

00:24:21.820 And just like, let's watch it unfold.

00:24:25.720 The generation under 25 have never had so much depression and anxiety.

00:24:30.160 Right.

00:24:30.880 So it's like a self, we are creating the problem and then we're trying to come up with solutions

00:24:36.400 to fix the problem.

00:24:37.780 And the solutions themselves are making the problem worse.

00:24:41.160 Focus on yourself.

00:24:41.860 So from a Christian angle, we are here to glorify God and make much of him.

00:24:47.080 Our life is not for ourself.

00:24:49.260 In fact, the call to discipleship is to deny yourself, to take up your cross and to follow

00:24:54.560 Jesus, Luke 9, 23.

00:24:56.620 So what is it?

00:24:58.000 Self-denial is an integral part of being faithful.

00:25:01.740 And if I focus on self, of course, it's going to get worse.

00:25:05.400 Of course, I'll have more problems.

00:25:06.780 And then now I'm going to someone with a naturalistic worldview and they're using medical

00:25:13.280 sounding labels when it's not really a medical issue in the first place.

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00:26:20.560 I think Christians buy a lot of that stuff too, because we hear a lot, especially in

00:26:31.420 the women's Bible study world, and this is what I wrote my first book on, we hear things

00:26:37.220 that sound almost biblically true, like you're enough, you're perfect the way you are, give

00:26:43.980 yourself grace, all of these things that almost sound good.

00:26:48.280 Well, Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself, so that's a command to love yourself

00:26:52.140 too.

00:26:53.240 It almost sounds right.

00:26:54.760 And of course, it feels good, but you end up at the same place where the secular world

00:27:00.620 ends up, which is the self, and believing that this path of self-discovery and self-fulfillment

00:27:05.960 is going to make you happy.

00:27:07.120 And you're saying it does the opposite.

00:27:09.900 Yeah.

00:27:10.060 And just think how seductive that is, though.

00:27:13.120 It's like, Jesus came to save me.

00:27:16.480 God loved me so much.

00:27:19.080 And you're like, wait, hang on.

00:27:20.440 Is the emphasis God's glory and you being restored through the work of Christ to glorify God,

00:27:26.420 or that God couldn't live without you, and that is why he sent Jesus?

00:27:31.380 So it's like, who's being exalted in the narrative of the gospel?

00:27:34.660 It is the glory of God in the name of Jesus Christ.

00:27:37.140 It's not me.

00:27:39.140 So then I can Christianize self-love and say, God loves me.

00:27:44.220 I am so valuable.

00:27:45.940 And if I'm not careful, then it starts to be an exaltation of me again.

00:27:50.020 Yeah.

00:27:50.320 And it's so seductive because it's like legitimized, you're seemingly legitimized with

00:27:53.660 scripture.

00:27:54.420 So if you're going to love your neighbor, you have to first love yourself.

00:27:57.920 If I'm going to love my neighbor like I love myself, I have to love myself.

00:28:01.240 But the inherent problem is that who is getting the glory?

00:28:05.480 Do we get the glory or does God get the glory?

00:28:08.300 Yeah.

00:28:09.300 Right.

00:28:10.300 And it's not really a command to love ourselves.

00:28:13.340 It's a given that we love ourselves.

00:28:15.240 We're born loving ourselves in the same way that we're born seeking our own interests.

00:28:19.160 Like we cry for food.

00:28:20.760 We cry to be held.

00:28:21.880 From the very first moment, we are interested in what we need.

00:28:25.460 And that's not a bad thing.

00:28:27.080 I think God created us with a survival instinct.

00:28:29.900 We know what we need to survive.

00:28:31.960 It seems to me that Jesus is saying in the same way that you naturally seek to meet your

00:28:36.060 own interests and needs, seek to meet the interests and the needs of other people, not

00:28:40.140 as high as your self-esteem is, make sure that other people's self-esteem is just as high.

00:28:45.900 And that, I think, is how we're interpreting it.

00:28:47.980 And if that's the case, you're going to be waiting a really long time until you love someone

00:28:51.520 else.

00:28:51.760 It's like, oh, I hated what I looked like in my outfit this morning.

00:28:55.000 So sorry, kids, like breakfast is on you.

00:28:58.700 Like it's just, we, like you said, I think the point of glory is so important because

00:29:02.980 I can say, okay, I woke up this morning not feeling great about myself and maybe I'm not

00:29:08.620 in a good mood or whatever it is.

00:29:10.640 It's like keeping me down.

00:29:11.860 But because Christ is in me and because his love never changes and because he died on

00:29:19.100 the cross and his sacrifice like is fixed, like that gives me the power to love other

00:29:24.220 people.

00:29:24.760 It's not about how I feel about myself.

00:29:26.460 That's actually a lot more freeing than thinking that my love for other people is dependent

00:29:30.840 on my own love for myself.

00:29:32.040 100%.

00:29:32.260 Right.

00:29:33.060 And I don't fault people.

00:29:35.060 First of all, I don't want to sound like just a curmudgeon that's like, you know, stop

00:29:38.220 focusing on yourself because we're, we're raised in a culture that has exalted our feelings.

00:29:43.340 Yeah.

00:29:44.140 And you're, you know, you best and who am I to judge you?

00:29:47.780 Like that is the zeitgeist of our age.

00:29:50.440 Truth is in you.

00:29:51.620 Your feelings are authoritative.

00:29:53.500 So then that starts to be kind of the solution as well.

00:29:56.360 It's like, well, I want to feel better and I want to feel better about myself.

00:30:01.240 That's, that's the singular next step for me to thrive.

00:30:06.180 Okay.

00:30:06.680 But we know according to the scripture that God's word is the truth, not what's going

00:30:12.040 on in my inner person and my feelings matter, but they're not authoritative.

00:30:16.920 In fact, I can have wayward emotions and feelings.

00:30:20.900 So then you turn that corner and you say, God sets me free from myself to worship him.

00:30:27.600 And when I do that, I am the most satisfied person I can be.

00:30:32.680 Like Psalm 16, 11, like the pleasures are not at my right hand.

00:30:36.480 They are at the right hand of the Lord.

00:30:38.860 And when you think of contentment as a Christian, it is not where you've learned to be true to 1.00

00:30:44.380 yourself and listen to yourself.

00:30:46.800 You learn contentment by being obedient to the Lord.

00:30:50.320 And then he changes your will, Philippians 2, 13.

00:30:53.200 So you really, you want what God wants.

00:30:55.760 That is true contentment for us.

00:30:57.460 So I'm never satisfied when I focus on myself.

00:31:02.240 Never.

00:31:02.600 It's, I'm more miserable.

00:31:04.820 I'm grumpy, you know, like everything has to make me happy.

00:31:08.260 And then it never does.

00:31:09.280 I hit traffic again.

00:31:10.280 I get woken up early.

00:31:11.520 Like it never does.

00:31:13.120 But whenever I'm living for the glory of God, I'm free because it's not about me.

00:31:17.760 It's about making much of him.

00:31:19.180 And all those inconveniences to my life can actually help me better glorify the Lord than

00:31:24.860 if I lived at perfect ease with no problems at all.

00:31:28.220 I mean, that's the, that's the beauty of the gospel and the Christian worldview.

00:31:32.600 And it is so counter to what modern psychology tells us.

00:31:35.920 And by the way, people are accessing modern psychology, not necessarily by going into a

00:31:41.120 psychologist's office and paying them a hundred dollars an hour, but on Instagram,

00:31:44.980 on TikTok, because they're-

00:31:46.740 Chatbots too.

00:31:47.320 Yes, yeah, which is scary to think about.

00:31:49.760 But there's a lot of psychology influencers out there too, or memes or whatever.

00:31:54.500 And people are imbibing this idea that, you know, there are two things that you can do

00:31:59.880 if you're depressed.

00:32:00.840 And one is to lean more on your own understanding and to lean more into how you feel about yourself,

00:32:07.360 but then also cut out all of the things that are making you sad.

00:32:12.060 Oh, this person, you know, is asking too much of you.

00:32:15.420 Your boss expects you to work hard and come into the office while all of these toxic things,

00:32:20.900 or it's the patriarchy, or it's capitalism, or it's advertising, or it's this system,

00:32:25.180 or this person.

00:32:26.440 And it makes sense when you think that it's an anti-Christian worldview.

00:32:29.940 For Christian, the sanctification is not necessarily asking God to remove all the hard

00:32:33.940 things from our lives.

00:32:35.260 It's asking God to help us endure them with grace and perseverance in a way that makes us

00:32:40.180 look more like Christ.

00:32:41.720 We're denying ourselves, as you said earlier, whereas modern psychology is asking us to deny

00:32:46.680 everyone else.

00:32:47.600 Right.

00:32:48.320 And just to make sure my position is clear, and I'm very open to your thoughts on this,

00:32:54.700 my reading of the scripture is that it is God-centered, and our life is about glorifying Him.

00:33:01.540 And God can even use my emotional struggles to help me depend on Him more.

00:33:07.500 Whenever I'm anxious, I have to fight to trust Him.

00:33:11.260 Whenever my mood is depressed or melancholic, like I have to cling to the promises of scripture

00:33:16.520 and hold to them, to use Bridges, Jerry Bridges' words.

00:33:20.100 So I am not saying be miserable, but just grind in glorifying God.

00:33:25.480 But me being free of depression and anxiety is a secondary goal.

00:33:31.620 It's not the primary goal.

00:33:33.120 The primary goal is to glorify God.

00:33:35.940 And then I have to think through, what does the Bible say about those issues?

00:33:39.380 And how can I respond to anxiety or depression or ADHD according to the scripture?

00:33:45.420 So it's still there.

00:33:46.540 It's still there.

00:33:47.140 I don't want anyone to hear this or listen to this, but like, you know, Gifford just

00:33:49.500 believes that you should be miserable and glorify the Lord.

00:33:52.460 No, I'm saying that glorifying God is number one, and then addressing whatever emotional

00:33:57.580 relational struggle you may have.

00:33:59.380 That is your secondary goal.

00:34:01.340 Yeah.

00:34:01.720 Okay.

00:34:02.160 Well, let's talk about what that looks like specifically.

00:34:04.800 And if we can start with ADHD, because I think that's the most interesting one.

00:34:09.880 The Bible has a lot to say about being sad and distressed and fearful and anxious, but

00:34:16.440 I'd be interested to hear, like, how would you work through with someone with ADHD using

00:34:21.780 scripture?

00:34:23.460 Okay.

00:34:23.700 So first of all, think of what we're calling ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

00:34:29.220 Lots of symptoms in one umbrella.

00:34:31.220 Fidgety, hard to focus.

00:34:34.780 Seriously, it's like kids that get up and they're kind of rambunctious.

00:34:37.700 Yeah.

00:34:38.260 You have girls, I have boys, and boys are just different.

00:34:42.860 Like I've never, my boys are a little maybe rambunctious.

00:34:46.220 This is like, I don't walk in on them playing house and like neatly building a Lego set.

00:34:51.220 Like they're wrestling, they're bouncing the ball in the house.

00:34:55.440 And those that are most diagnosed with ADHD are boys and it's junior high.

00:35:01.680 So then you think through that, it's like, oh, that's an interesting thing to consider.

00:35:04.540 11, 12 years old.

00:35:08.480 Where do they struggle most?

00:35:10.620 School.

00:35:12.320 Sitting in one place for six, seven hours a day.

00:35:14.840 Okay.

00:35:17.980 Then you think through the girls that are their age.

00:35:21.140 Some have already gone through puberty.

00:35:23.520 They're like a foot taller, as weird as that may seem.

00:35:26.960 You pick up your son in fifth grade and you're like, you guys are in the same class?

00:35:30.000 Like what's happening here?

00:35:32.140 So then you have these boys that are rambunctious, wily, not sitting still.

00:35:36.040 And the immediate leap is, well, they must have a disorder.

00:35:40.080 Let's have them talk to the school psychologist.

00:35:41.720 Let's get them tested.

00:35:43.780 Okay.

00:35:44.160 I don't fault school psychologist and I don't fault trying to find resources for boys that

00:35:48.200 are rambunctious, but do they have a medically verifiable problem?

00:35:53.640 That's the real question.

00:35:55.160 Can we scan the brain?

00:35:56.580 Can we do lab results?

00:35:58.200 And there will be some watching this that says, yes, there's brain chemistry that corresponds

00:36:01.920 to those with ADHD.

00:36:03.880 And then I would say, great.

00:36:05.160 So let's diagnose based off of brain scans and not symptoms.

00:36:09.480 Which some doctors do.

00:36:11.000 Very few.

00:36:11.860 But some do.

00:36:12.740 Let's do it.

00:36:14.440 Okay.

00:36:14.680 So is hyperactivity a disorder?

00:36:19.760 Is being fidgety a disorder?

00:36:22.680 Or is that a gifting that you have?

00:36:25.940 So think of 1 Peter 4 and Romans 12.

00:36:28.120 Everyone in the body of Christ is given gifts, strengths, weaknesses that we have.

00:36:32.820 There are some that are just not the school type.

00:36:37.020 That's not them.

00:36:37.900 They don't thrive in that environment.

00:36:39.960 They're very active.

00:36:41.920 They are very like, go, go, go, go, go.

00:36:44.420 And their mind never rests.

00:36:47.000 Looking back, I see a lot of CEOs or executive directors.

00:36:51.000 And it's like, man, if they had ADHD whenever you were a kid, you would have been diagnosed

00:36:54.320 with it because you're bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

00:36:56.580 Yeah.

00:36:57.040 I've definitely seen that in some very successful people.

00:37:01.120 Think about it.

00:37:01.740 They can hardly even look you in the eye sometimes because they're thinking about a million things.

00:37:05.420 But they're very good at what they do.

00:37:07.040 Yes.

00:37:07.380 Right.

00:37:07.580 So is that something that has to be labeled and treated?

00:37:11.320 Right.

00:37:11.760 Or do you find the area to set your giftedness free?

00:37:15.620 It's like, you're probably not going to be a librarian.

00:37:18.060 Yeah.

00:37:18.300 No, Ferris.

00:37:19.100 Right.

00:37:19.600 Like, is that a sin?

00:37:20.640 No.

00:37:21.200 Yeah.

00:37:21.840 Would you be miserable if we made you go to a cubicle and type in Excel all day?

00:37:26.700 Yeah. 0.99

00:37:27.020 You would be absolutely miserable. 0.90

00:37:28.780 Yeah.

00:37:29.040 So go be a park ranger, go be an entrepreneur, go work with your hands, go build your own

00:37:34.520 business or nonprofit.

00:37:36.340 So how do you work with someone with ADHD?

00:37:39.160 I think for a lot of the diagnoses, give them time to mature, give them a time to grow up,

00:37:46.620 encourage them to do things that are hard and to persevere.

00:37:50.440 And you can't always do the things that you love and eschew the things you hate.

00:37:55.120 Mm-hmm.

00:37:56.560 But do you have to take meds?

00:38:00.240 Right.

00:38:02.400 It's a Christian liberty, you know, and I'm not going to say you absolutely cannot.

00:38:07.120 Yeah.

00:38:07.500 But I am going to say you want your sons and some daughters, you want them to learn the

00:38:14.140 life skills that go into denying yourself and not depending on a medication that's going

00:38:19.760 to help them focus.

00:38:21.120 Yeah.

00:38:21.640 But can you use it?

00:38:22.780 Totally.

00:38:23.000 You can use it in a God-honoring way when you've obtained those meds legally, you could

00:38:26.740 do it.

00:38:27.540 Yeah.

00:38:27.900 But help them mature first and help them grow and then steer them towards somewhere where

00:38:32.200 they can really thrive with their giftedness instead of the librarian, the accountant,

00:38:38.000 the very sedentary positions that will just probably make them crazy, seriously.

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00:39:39.440 I think just like with everything that we do, we have to assess our motives behind it.

00:39:51.160 When it is an area of Christian liberty, in this case, obviously, the Bible doesn't say

00:39:56.460 you shall not do a brain scan and treat with medication something that is actual diagnosed

00:40:01.860 ADHD.

00:40:03.060 But I think all of us need to ask, and as a parent, I can understand this.

00:40:08.460 If you have a child that is having a really hard time in school, your other kids aren't,

00:40:12.740 their friends aren't.

00:40:13.760 You're watching them up on stage, everyone else in the Christmas recital is doing their

00:40:20.540 job and doing the motions and singing, your child is running around on stage.

00:40:25.160 Like I can understand as a parent, oh, that's difficult.

00:40:28.560 And you might feel like, well, I'm helping them by giving them this medication.

00:40:33.340 But I think we all need to ask some questions.

00:40:36.120 Is it really for them or is it for you?

00:40:38.280 Is it because they are actually having a hard time or do you just feel awkward and uncomfortable?

00:40:44.820 And is it also just making your job as a parent harder?

00:40:48.380 Is it because maybe you don't want to homeschool?

00:40:50.620 Is it because it takes longer to discipline and talk to your child, longer to get out the

00:40:55.100 door?

00:40:55.880 And those might all be real difficulties, but they also may be opportunities for sanctification,

00:41:01.800 not necessarily psychiatric drugs.

00:41:04.360 Right.

00:41:04.460 On the parent's part.

00:41:06.360 That's what I mean.

00:41:07.080 Yeah, you're growing as a parent.

00:41:08.540 Exactly.

00:41:09.340 And sometimes I think that's just, that's the most difficult part is the patience that's

00:41:13.320 required of us as parents.

00:41:15.880 And yes, it might make it easier for your child to sit through seven hours of school.

00:41:20.040 But to your point, is that the goal?

00:41:23.020 Like, is that really the goal?

00:41:24.380 Is that something that's necessary for them?

00:41:26.340 Or is it something that's necessary for you?

00:41:28.220 Yeah, and I don't fault schools because schools actually have to get a diagnosis to get them

00:41:32.820 private tutors and more resources or an educational assistant.

00:41:37.080 So the school's not trying to, you know, we could paint public schools as being evil and

00:41:41.560 some are, but there's also a legal requirement to get tested and diagnosed with ADHD to get

00:41:47.740 you a smaller room and less students in the class and an educational assistant or specialist

00:41:53.000 there.

00:41:53.260 So then the school's saying, well, we got to get you tested to get you out of 30 person

00:41:58.380 size classes and get you the attention and resources that you need.

00:42:02.120 Right.

00:42:02.280 So they need that diagnosis to unlock all these resources.

00:42:05.160 So I don't envy that position.

00:42:06.600 But as a parent, you should still be discerning and say, hmm, but I don't know if that is the

00:42:12.340 real issue.

00:42:13.080 I don't know if that's really going to help.

00:42:15.340 And that could be hard to do.

00:42:16.640 It's hard to assess how you're doing as a parent and all of the things that like you might

00:42:21.820 need to change in order to like better accommodate the personality and the strengths of your kids.

00:42:26.880 I love what you said about thinking about those differences as strengths and not something

00:42:31.880 that needs to be stifled or medicated necessarily.

00:42:35.800 I don't think that a lot of us probably think that way even about our own selves.

00:42:40.880 But I had pretty, probably every teacher, my parents would say, tell my parents that I had ADD

00:42:46.260 because I couldn't stop talking in class.

00:42:47.940 But now I talk, you know, for a living.

00:42:51.020 And so, yeah, I'm really glad that I look back and I'm really glad that my parents said no to that.

00:42:57.200 Because what if I didn't do what I do now?

00:42:59.500 Right.

00:42:59.840 So think of your giftings, right?

00:43:01.200 The Lord's obviously blessing your work and you have this huge impact through your words,

00:43:05.800 through a mind that is sharp.

00:43:07.140 But what if at your earliest of years, you self-conceptualized as having a disorder, ADHD?

00:43:14.660 So what if your parents said, okay, like if you want to get her tested, let's get her tested. 0.94

00:43:19.040 And then you got a diagnosis.

00:43:21.200 And then now you start to hear what you can't do because you have ADHD.

00:43:26.440 So that's a very, that's an extremely detrimental side effect of the mental illness movement over 0.93

00:43:33.320 diagnosing is kids self-conceptualizing as their diagnosis from very, so you, you would have learned

00:43:39.840 from puberty that you can't do things.

00:43:42.800 So your parents gave you that sweet gift of saying, nope, we're going to protect her and

00:43:47.580 we're going to help her thrive in what she's good at.

00:43:49.520 And then here you are.

00:43:50.840 Yeah.

00:43:51.400 And I never did get an A in math and that's okay.

00:43:54.060 Me neither.

00:43:54.800 Yeah.

00:43:55.260 Cause I don't use it.

00:43:56.440 Um, okay.

00:43:58.180 So depression, anxiety.

00:43:59.720 So we talked through ADHD for those who are like, look, Dr. Gifford, I hear you, but they're

00:44:05.940 thinking I'm depressed.

00:44:07.000 I can't get out of bed.

00:44:08.140 I can't do it.

00:44:08.940 You're telling me this is a problem of the mind.

00:44:10.560 I don't know how to pray more and read the Bible more than I already have.

00:44:12.740 Yeah, good.

00:44:13.740 Totally.

00:44:14.680 No one should hear this, watch this, listen to this and think I'm saying depression doesn't

00:44:20.800 exist because I'm not saying that.

00:44:22.840 And no one should hear this, watch this, listen to this and think I'm saying anxiety doesn't

00:44:28.380 exist because I'm not saying that.

00:44:30.320 I've never said that in the book.

00:44:32.040 I don't say that on my podcast.

00:44:34.000 I don't say that.

00:44:34.740 I've never said those things.

00:44:36.300 What I'm saying is let's start to, to uncover what's going on in depression.

00:44:43.380 If there are physiological issues, vitamin deficiencies, thyroid issues, there's something

00:44:50.000 going on with my brain, maybe there's actually a cyst or something growing on the organ and

00:44:54.920 it's affecting me in some way.

00:44:56.440 It's affecting mood regulation in that way.

00:44:58.680 You would say affecting your mind in a way that encourages you to sin, but doesn't cause

00:45:03.360 you to sin.

00:45:04.140 Yep.

00:45:05.000 Because we know Romans 6, we're set free and we have God's spirit indwelling us, 1 Corinthians

00:45:10.080 6, 19.

00:45:10.780 So I can't, I can never once say my body made me sin.

00:45:14.220 And yeah, it does get murky in terms of what is, was that a true sin or was it not a true

00:45:19.760 sin, you know, but, but we know that line is clear.

00:45:22.780 Yeah.

00:45:23.400 Okay.

00:45:23.620 So if I don't have any known physiological problems, doctors can't find anything.

00:45:29.080 There's nothing going on in the organ of my brain.

00:45:31.380 Thyroid looks great. 0.75

00:45:32.820 All my blood work comes back and it looks nice.

00:45:36.840 Then maybe just maybe I should be open to what's happening in my mind.

00:45:41.740 What am I thinking about?

00:45:44.540 What am I putting my hope in?

00:45:47.160 Why, why am I disappointed and so discouraged?

00:45:50.480 Did something change in my life recently that was not physiological, but was circumstantial?

00:45:55.180 And that's what triggered this depression.

00:45:58.060 Then you're not talking about a biological problem at all.

00:46:00.340 You're actually talking about a spiritual problem.

00:46:03.480 Okay. 0.73

00:46:03.680 So here it's like, okay, well, Gifford like kick people while they're down, man.

00:46:08.120 That's not what I'm saying.

00:46:09.140 I am saying you can be hopeless and that's not a body problem.

00:46:14.060 And what is the solution to that?

00:46:16.320 We want to take you back to the nature and the character of God and his promises.

00:46:21.180 We want to set you free that God is faithful.

00:46:24.380 Second Corinthians one, he's the God of all comfort, that his mercy is unending for you.

00:46:30.080 That even in the low point, if someone's watching this in bed right now, even in that low point, God draws people out of the mud and the muck and the mire, and he sets them on a firm rock, which is himself.

00:46:43.340 That is the hope that people need.

00:46:46.880 An antidepressant can't touch that.

00:46:50.500 We need to behold the glory of God, not behold the glory of our problems, not behold the glory of ourselves, not behold the glory of psychotropics.

00:46:59.560 So if there is no physical issue, would we at least be open, at least open, at least consider what may be happening in our inner person that's contributing to things like depression in that way?

00:47:13.400 Does that make sense?

00:47:14.260 Yeah, it makes sense.

00:47:15.480 Abigail Schreier, I don't know if you've read her book, Bad Therapy.

00:47:18.780 She's great.

00:47:19.740 She came on this show to talk about it, but she also went on Joe Rogan and she talked about one of the key features of depression is often just a constant dwelling on your own problems, which to me would be one of the problems of psychology because what I hear from popular psychology is that that's how you heal your problems, is constantly talking about them and thinking about them.

00:47:42.380 That's one problem I have with SEL in school, because especially for kids, this focus on the feelings and the problems and the concerns that you have, I just don't know if that's healthy.

00:47:54.380 She brings that up in Bad Therapy.

00:47:55.980 She says, start class every day by asking your students how they feel and you're actually going to make them feel worse.

00:48:03.300 And it's like, Schreier's not arguing for a biblical worldview, but there is something correct about that, which is a self-centered,

00:48:12.380 worldview makes me more miserable, like we were saying a few minutes ago.

00:48:16.600 So can you be encouraged to be myopic?

00:48:20.900 Yeah, absolutely.

00:48:21.940 And that's where some of our teachers are totally out of line by asking our students the wrong kind of questions.

00:48:28.680 It's almost like you're leading the witness to a degree.

00:48:31.620 Yeah.

00:48:32.520 And anxiety.

00:48:34.600 Yeah.

00:48:35.240 How do we think through that biblically?

00:48:37.980 Okay, so I would have-

00:48:39.160 And is it different than depression?

00:48:39.780 Let's use the term that comes from the scripture, but then I do think there's a cultural term that younger people will use that's more like stress.

00:48:50.900 The term from the scripture, anxiety, Philippians 4, 6, Matthew 6, Jesus says, do not be anxious.

00:48:58.720 Okay, so it's pretty clear that Jesus is focusing on anxiety as a matter of having little faith.

00:49:07.260 So what's the remedy to anxiety?

00:49:11.100 Well, consider the lilies.

00:49:14.040 Consider the birds.

00:49:15.800 God feeds them.

00:49:16.940 God clothes them.

00:49:18.100 And God knows your needs as well.

00:49:20.760 So what is anxiety definitionally?

00:49:23.020 It's like an over-concern.

00:49:25.000 I'm too concerned.

00:49:26.480 Worry.

00:49:27.280 Some of you fear interchangeably, but worry seems to be a better modern-day English equivalent.

00:49:32.020 If that's what you're saying anxiety is, then the Bible would say that is a sin to repent of.

00:49:38.140 And why is that?

00:49:39.120 Because we're not placing our faith and trust in the Lord and practical things like food and clothing.

00:49:44.880 So the solution is turn from that like we would any other distrust of the Lord.

00:49:49.800 Repent from that.

00:49:50.560 And then now behold God as your provider who's good and wise and loving.

00:49:56.420 And the grass of the field reminds us God's a provider.

00:49:59.340 Seriously, the birds remind us that God doesn't forget us.

00:50:04.180 So there's another category that I find younger people use, which is they'll say they're anxious in a way that older generations would say they're stressed.

00:50:13.180 So it's like, how was your week?

00:50:14.820 It's like, oh, just so anxious, so much going on.

00:50:17.760 But they don't really mean like I'm failing to trust the Lord.

00:50:20.700 They mean something like I'm kind of overwhelmed.

00:50:23.620 And in that way, it is kind of confusing.

00:50:26.060 The first time I said in class that anxiety is a sin, like you could feel the breath of my students like gasp.

00:50:32.280 Like, where is this guy from?

00:50:33.820 Yeah.

00:50:34.360 And I was like, wait a minute.

00:50:35.640 Like, is that a thing?

00:50:37.840 Like, do we have to tease that out?

00:50:39.400 And we did, and I learned that they were using anxiety like overwhelmed.

00:50:44.020 Yeah.

00:50:44.920 So can you be stressed and not be anxious?

00:50:47.140 I think you can.

00:50:48.880 Can you be burdened?

00:50:50.740 2 Corinthians 4, struck down, perplexed, all those things, and not be anxious?

00:50:55.040 Yeah, I think you can.

00:50:56.260 But if we're talking about anxiety, the solution to anxiety is to learn to trust the Lord in the practical things you're struggling with.

00:51:05.480 Is it your kids?

00:51:07.220 Is it your health?

00:51:08.400 Is it your career?

00:51:10.460 Is it your money?

00:51:13.700 Consider this atheism.

00:51:15.480 When we talk about anxiety, anxiety is a mild form of atheism.

00:51:21.380 Kevin Carson, undergraduate prof, told me that.

00:51:23.720 And I was like, yeah, that's it.

00:51:26.140 You're totally right.

00:51:27.940 Because I'm not seeing that God's in total control, and he's good and wise.

00:51:32.960 And when I know that God's in control, he's sovereign, and I know that he's good, meaning he's not this evil dictator, then I trust him and I'm not anxious.

00:51:42.040 It's like, why would I be anxious?

00:51:44.180 God's got this.

00:51:45.140 He's in total control, and he's good, and he's wise, and he knows.

00:51:48.520 So your anxiety and my anxiety, and I could be a man who is prone toward anxiety.

00:51:54.060 It's actually crushed by a big view, a transformative view of who the Lord is.

00:52:01.620 And then I learned to practically trust him in the areas that I'm struggling with.

00:52:06.280 Seriously.

00:52:07.300 Yeah, that's really good.

00:52:09.740 I remember there's a quote, I'm going to paraphrase it, by C.S. Lewis, who said something along the lines of worrying about the future is like picturing the future without God's grace in it.

00:52:21.520 Because if God's grace is in the here and the now with us, everyone hears about those moments where some Christian goes through awful tragedy, and everyone around them is like, how are you so at peace?

00:52:32.960 Like, obviously, you're sad, but you don't seem distraught.

00:52:36.360 You don't seem, you know, completely destitute.

00:52:39.100 And obviously, the grace of God met them exactly where they were.

00:52:42.580 But when we picture some future event, some catastrophe, our spouse dying, our child getting diagnosed with cancer, one, we can't control that.

00:52:52.760 So that is, I think, a large part of where the anxiety comes from.

00:52:55.920 Not only that it's going to happen, but that we can't do anything to stop it.

00:53:00.140 But then also, we're picturing that moment without God's grace there, because we're thinking about a hypothetical, and God's grace is only real.

00:53:06.320 And so I think that also just stirs in us a lot of unnecessary worry, which I think Satan, you know, he likes that.

00:53:15.220 Because, of course, he likes to imagine a world without God's grace in it.

00:53:19.240 I also think 100% on all that you're saying.

00:53:24.280 So when I'm tempted to be anxious, I want to know.

00:53:29.240 Like, I just want to know.

00:53:30.520 Yeah.

00:53:30.800 And then I co-mingle that with the Lord blesses the plans that I establish.

00:53:37.300 You want to be intentional.

00:53:39.240 And then before long, I am trying to control things that are not mine to control.

00:53:43.500 Yeah.

00:53:44.340 So the worship of control becomes really who you functionally are living for, and it's not the worship of God.

00:53:53.360 And then when I can't control it, I'm anxious or fearful.

00:53:55.900 Last sponsor for the day is Concerned Women for America.

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00:55:11.600 What other lies have our therapist told us?

00:55:15.280 Ooh.

00:55:17.060 What other lies have our therapist told us?

00:55:21.100 So mind-brain's important.

00:55:23.500 Medicalizing the mind is the next lie that we want to cut straight as Christians. 0.85

00:55:30.020 We are doing our best to then dissect what is it that we're facing with God's Word.

00:55:37.080 So if it's depression, anxiety, ADHD, take each of those seriously.

00:55:42.520 Run them through what the Bible says about what you're experiencing.

00:55:46.260 And if there's no physiological problem, then start to develop a worldview that the solutions are coming from the Scripture, not from the secular therapeutic.

00:55:55.300 And even if you do have a physiological problem, that doesn't mean it's only physiological, right?

00:56:03.080 Right.

00:56:03.320 Because it can intersect with the mind, which means God's Word has an answer for that.

00:56:08.440 Yeah, I think of stress, right?

00:56:12.300 Like there are those that respond to stress by sleeplessness, losing hair, can't eat.

00:56:17.940 And you're like, is that a gastrointestinal problem?

00:56:23.680 Yeah.

00:56:24.000 I would love to think I could eat sweet potatoes and I trust the Lord and my body's completely restored.

00:56:28.840 But I have to learn that, no, I must grow in trusting Him so I'm at peace.

00:56:37.000 And then that affects my body as well.

00:56:39.860 So we want to emphasize, yeah, your body can encourage things, but your inner person can also encourage things within your body.

00:56:47.480 So as Christians, we're not neglecting one or the other.

00:56:49.860 But the current tendency, and this is the lie we have to face in the church, is it's not all a body problem.

00:56:57.480 Right.

00:56:58.600 Let's cut that straight.

00:56:59.820 It's not all, if there's no evidence that it's a body problem, then let's just be open to the fact that there's a soul problem here.

00:57:07.800 Yeah.

00:57:08.280 I think that it goes back so perfectly to the beginning of this conversation, because I'm thinking of some examples in my own life.

00:57:14.660 Like, there might be a particular set of circumstances that actually makes you stressed.

00:57:19.200 It makes your body stressed.

00:57:20.340 It makes your palms sweaty.

00:57:21.480 It makes your mind or brain start racing, whatever it is.

00:57:24.660 Like, you really do feel.

00:57:26.300 You have butterflies in your stomach, all of this stuff.

00:57:29.660 But it's not making me be irritable.

00:57:34.280 It might encourage me to snap at my family or to be rude to someone or to cut someone off in traffic because I want to get where I'm going.

00:57:43.260 And from the outside perspective, it's totally understandable for me to act that way.

00:57:49.340 But it is not making me sin, and I'm so responsible for that sin.

00:57:53.820 Because, of course, one of the fruit of the Spirit is not self-love but self-control.

00:57:58.540 Yep.

00:57:58.660 And the Holy Spirit, it, you know, indwells us and can direct the mind no matter what's happening in our physiology.

00:58:07.620 And like you said, it doesn't mean that our physical circumstances and body doesn't matter and that it can't affect the mind.

00:58:13.940 But Christians have to be thoughtful enough to remember the presence of the Holy Spirit, right?

00:58:18.540 Yep.

00:58:18.660 And the huge power it has in our lives.

00:58:22.060 And we are not, you know, we're not dominated by the Prince of the Power of the Air anymore.

00:58:26.560 So, Ali, some listeners are going to hear them be like, are you serious?

00:58:29.320 Like, traffic can't make me angry?

00:58:32.100 Is that what you guys are saying?

00:58:33.520 And they're going to feel a burden by that.

00:58:35.640 And I think we have to say, yeah, you should feel responsibility, but change can happen.

00:58:42.440 God forgives if we repent.

00:58:44.400 So, instead of me saying, I'm controlled by my anger, and as men, we can feel legitimized in our anger.

00:58:52.480 Instead of me saying, like, I just have to be an angry dad, an angry husband, I can say, you know what?

00:58:56.980 God calls me to bear responsibility for it, but then he promises that he will forgive me if I confess, 1 John 8 and 9,

00:59:05.840 and that he will give me the resources I need to change.

00:59:09.880 I don't have to be that anymore.

00:59:12.000 So, don't feel the burden of, like, oh, man, that's a lot.

00:59:15.440 Ali, Gifford, you're killing me.

00:59:16.880 It's like, no.

00:59:17.980 Feel the freedom that you can change.

00:59:21.800 Transformation is the idea that you are completely new.

00:59:26.400 Like, that's what a beautiful concept.

00:59:28.140 Not managing the symptoms of, you don't have to be that anymore.

00:59:32.640 So, don't hear, like, own your sin as this heavy guilt.

00:59:36.120 Hear, like, own your sin, yes, but you behold the glory of Jesus, not the glory of your sin.

00:59:41.740 Hebrews 12, look to him. 0.51

00:59:45.200 In your fight against sin, you don't focus on your sin, you focus on Jesus, and that brings you freedom from those things.

00:59:54.240 Another thought for you.

00:59:57.180 Lies that therapists are, Christians, just think this through. 1.00

01:00:03.280 What is repentance?

01:00:04.980 What does repentance mean, practically?

01:00:07.300 Change of mind.

01:00:09.060 Change of mind, not change of brain.

01:00:12.360 If you're unrepentant, Romans 128, you have a calloused mind.

01:00:17.020 Or you have a defiled mind, Titus 115, that's said of false teachers.

01:00:26.080 Scary thought, but your mind can actually be hardened.

01:00:30.120 Your mind can be calloused.

01:00:31.480 Okay, so why does that matter?

01:00:35.580 Christians, let's just think this through carefully. 0.99

01:00:37.920 If you're going to an unbelieving therapist for help about the most personal matters of your life, 1.00

01:00:45.040 you could literally be sitting across the desk from someone with a hardened, calloused, defiled mind,

01:00:52.440 trying to help you with your most personal, intimate problems.

01:00:56.120 In what world does that make sense?

01:01:00.160 In what world?

01:01:00.740 That's plan C, or that's plan D.

01:01:04.240 But plan A is that I could find somebody who would use God's word as the source and authority

01:01:11.160 to really help me with the root of what's going on here.

01:01:15.980 Yeah, I thought you had a thought.

01:01:17.080 Well, I was going to ask, for those who don't know,

01:01:18.980 what is the difference between a licensed biblical counselor and someone who is just a Christian therapist?

01:01:28.700 Yes, good.

01:01:31.100 The difference between biblical counseling and Christian therapy or Christian counseling

01:01:36.220 is a question that I get pretty regularly.

01:01:39.340 So I host a podcast called Transformed, and listeners will write in and say,

01:01:44.040 does that mean anyone that uses the Bible is a biblical counselor?

01:01:47.820 And the answer is, the difference comes down to what's the source and the authority.

01:01:54.060 Love Dave Ramsey, I've used his plan, but he'll typically grab a proverb

01:01:58.060 and then use that one proverb to develop a whole structure of debt and managing your personal finances.

01:02:03.960 In the counseling world, it's like that as well.

01:02:06.060 It's like we have 99% Rogers, 99% Freud, and then a proverb that's kind of dropped in there somewhere.

01:02:12.780 Right.

01:02:13.260 And you're like, wait a minute, that's Freud's anthropology, what he believes about people,

01:02:16.860 that's his soteriology about salvation and sanctification.

01:02:20.120 And then we have a proverb that's dropped in.

01:02:22.320 That's Christian counseling, because the counseling is not coming from the Bible.

01:02:26.980 There is a Bible verse that's used.

01:02:28.880 Yeah.

01:02:29.200 Whereas biblical counseling is attempting to take God's word as both the source and the authority.

01:02:34.000 So the whole structure is built.

01:02:36.200 You interpret people through the lens of scripture.

01:02:38.460 You interpret their problems through the lens of scripture or the solutions through the lens

01:02:43.140 of scripture.

01:02:43.920 That is an outworking of our commitment to the sufficiency of scripture, which is the Bible

01:02:49.380 has the answers that we need.

01:02:52.060 And will someone who is a biblical counselor have a licensed biblical counselor under their

01:02:57.820 name?

01:02:58.140 If there's someone out there that's looking for that, how do they find that person?

01:03:01.560 I think you do need to be discerning about that, because some people will just kind of

01:03:06.180 hang a shingle out and say, biblical counselor, I got a Bible.

01:03:09.660 And that's great.

01:03:12.080 We appreciate well-intended, compassionate people.

01:03:15.000 But you are looking for a level of training.

01:03:17.400 I teach at the Master's University, where we have bachelors all the way up to doctoral degrees

01:03:22.100 in this.

01:03:23.220 So training, education that corresponds to being equipped for that.

01:03:26.820 And then there is a certification process called the Association of Certified Biblical

01:03:31.660 Counselors.

01:03:32.360 That's the organization.

01:03:33.760 And they actually train you, test you, observe you in counseling to ensure that you can implement

01:03:39.480 what you've done.

01:03:40.480 So it is very possible to get a degree, but never have actually counseled people or met

01:03:44.620 with people.

01:03:45.180 So you have all the knowledge, but not the skill.

01:03:48.480 So look for someone that has education, yes, Master's University, or I'm looking for someone

01:03:54.340 that's ACBC certified.

01:03:55.840 And if there's listeners that are interested, email me, and I'll point you to the, there's

01:04:01.380 a different, it's like a map, an interactive map that can show you biblical counselors in

01:04:06.300 your area.

01:04:07.300 That's really good.

01:04:08.420 I think for people, I'm just thinking through this myself.

01:04:12.060 Like if I were sitting across from a therapist, and maybe this can only be deduced over time,

01:04:17.500 but someone who doesn't believe that we are born simple and that we are sinners, or that

01:04:23.040 we don't need a savior, or doesn't acknowledge the need for salvation or sanctification, like

01:04:28.700 once you start to see that, that a lot of psychologists believe that you are inherently

01:04:33.140 good inside, that's when you'll see like the big difference in the wisdom that they're

01:04:38.780 going to give you.

01:04:39.640 And that's when you should walk out if you haven't already.

01:04:42.320 Imagine being super like vulnerable.

01:04:45.920 And then the therapist psychologist says, yeah, you deserve better.

01:04:50.520 You're great.

01:04:51.300 And you're like, I am great.

01:04:52.920 You know, like they shouldn't treat me like this.

01:04:55.020 Happens every day.

01:04:56.240 Right.

01:04:57.360 Yeah.

01:04:57.960 Wow.

01:04:58.420 I just thought about something else and we don't have time to do it, but we don't have

01:05:02.140 time to get into this.

01:05:03.080 So maybe you'll have to come back and I'll leave everyone on a cliffhanger.

01:05:05.860 But you're talking about how like, okay, depression, anxiety, we were talking about how that's

01:05:11.760 not typically diagnosed using blood work or brain scan.

01:05:14.280 And yet they'll tell you, you know, unequivocally that you have low serotonin or something.

01:05:18.920 And the only other thing I can think of that we do that with is like transgenderism is that 1.00

01:05:24.640 you hear someone talk and you're like, yes, your brain is a female brain. 0.95

01:05:28.600 We're not doing brain scans.

01:05:30.100 Like we're not testing hormones.

01:05:31.960 Not that that would indicate that they're born in the wrong body.

01:05:34.800 But again, they are being given something to change their body based on like a totally

01:05:41.920 subjective and politicized evaluation.

01:05:44.680 And I just am thinking now how much of the psychotropics that are given are based on that

01:05:50.640 kind of politicized, psychologized, totally subjective reasoning.

01:05:55.880 And it actually is changing people's brain in a way that can affect their mind in very dangerous

01:06:00.940 ways.

01:06:01.660 Symptom-based diagnosing.

01:06:03.100 Yes.

01:06:03.400 I'll add one more for the teaser.

01:06:06.380 There's also a group of people that have food allergies that do not have a medical proof.

01:06:12.280 And you ask yourself like,

01:06:14.040 I didn't know that.

01:06:14.960 If we talk about food allergies, a self-diagnosed food allergy, I'm gluten free.

01:06:19.940 I've never been tested.

01:06:21.180 There's no test that proves it.

01:06:22.700 That's interesting because I'm now describing my own health.

01:06:26.360 I'm describing my own gastrointestinal problems.

01:06:30.700 And yet there's not necessarily medical evidence for that.

01:06:33.800 Like it's a fascinating concept of, is that true or is that not true?

01:06:38.760 Or with the trend.

01:06:39.420 The self-pathologizing.

01:06:40.780 Right.

01:06:41.340 The crunchiness.

01:06:41.960 Yeah.

01:06:42.840 Well, that has been, yeah, it's interesting.

01:06:45.940 We could have a whole other conversation about that.

01:06:49.100 That when, like it does seem that nowadays when like the patient walks in, like we're able

01:06:54.640 to self-diagnose and then they can just give us the medication that we're asking for because

01:06:58.860 we are directly advertised to by the pharmaceutical companies.

01:07:02.280 And I'm pretty sure we are the only country, if not one of the only countries in the world

01:07:06.140 where we get that direct to consumer advertising of.

01:07:09.620 Isn't that fascinating?

01:07:10.660 Yeah.

01:07:11.040 We diagnosed ourself.

01:07:12.220 We just need the doctor to write the prescription.

01:07:13.900 Yeah.

01:07:14.020 I saw this commercial for Wellbutrin.

01:07:16.580 Or I Well, WebMD'd it, you know, and this is what I have.

01:07:20.000 Yeah.

01:07:20.180 And if the doctor disagrees with me, then I reject that.

01:07:24.060 Yeah.

01:07:24.880 Wow.

01:07:25.640 What a dangerous world we live in.

01:07:27.100 But all the more need for actual biblical counsel that comes from the word of God, that comes

01:07:33.140 from Jesus who doesn't change, Hebrews 13, 8.

01:07:35.920 And that is a comfort when it seems like everything else is giving way.

01:07:39.400 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

01:07:42.400 Amen.

01:07:43.000 Amen.

01:07:43.660 Okay.

01:07:44.000 Everyone can buy your book, Lies My Therapist Told Me, wherever books are sold.

01:07:47.240 Right.

01:07:47.760 Wherever they want.

01:07:48.100 And you have a podcast that's called Transforming.

01:07:51.420 Yeah.

01:07:51.720 So Transformed. 1.00

01:07:52.760 Transformed.

01:07:53.040 If you just Google Transformed.

01:07:54.000 Yes.

01:07:54.260 You'll find me.

01:07:55.260 It's part of Fortis Institute where I'm a fellow.

01:07:58.120 Okay.

01:07:58.440 Awesome.

01:07:58.880 Thank you so much, Dr. Gifford.

01:08:00.020 I really appreciate it.

01:08:01.000 Thank you.

01:08:01.340 Thank you.

01:08:01.900 Thank you.

01:08:02.640 Thank you.

01:08:02.900 Thank you.

01:08:03.440 Thank you.

01:08:12.200 Thank you.

01:08:12.280 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 31, 2025

Ep 1261 ｜ Lies Your Therapist Tells You ｜ Greg Gifford

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