Ep 1267 ｜ Frank Turek on Charlie Kirk Investigation & UC Berkeley Chaos ｜ Dr. Frank Turek
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 10 minutes
Words per Minute
165.76163
Summary
Apologist Dr. Frank Turek went into the Lion's Den at UC Berkeley a few days ago and the backlash from agitators there was just insane. He is telling us what really went down, what was it like to share the gospel in that kind of environment, and we are also going to be getting into what he thinks about Candace Owens' theories about Charlie Kirk s murder. We ve got all that and so much more on today s episode of Relatable.
Transcript
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Apologist Dr. Frank Turek went into the lion's den at UC Berkeley a few days ago and the backlash
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from agitators there was just insane. He is telling us what really went down. What was it
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like to share the gospel in that kind of environment? We are also going to be getting
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into what he thinks about Candace Owens' theories about Charlie Kirk's murder. We've got all that
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and so much more on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by our friends at Good
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Dr. Frank Turek, thanks so much for taking the time to join us. All right. I want to talk about UC
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Berkeley. Can you just, before we get into the specifics, take us through the whole night being
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asked to speak there, what you spoke about and how it went. Yeah, well, Charlie Kirk and I were
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scheduled to go there from the summer. I said, Charlie, if there's one campus I want to go
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and be with you on, it would be Berkeley. And he said, well, let's do it. So it was scheduled
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for November 10th. And of course, we all know what happened two months prior. So I thought the whole
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thing would be called off, but the team called me and said, we're still going to Berkeley. You know,
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Erica said the show must go on to her credit. So we decided that we're going to Berkeley and Rob Schneider,
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the actor comedian was going to join me. And so we planned the whole thing out and it was
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scheduled at Berkeley and the police knew about it. The university knew about it.
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And when we talk about what happened that night, you'll see that there's going to be probably a
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lawsuit coming from the Department of Justice because Berkeley did not hold up their end of the
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deal. It appears anyway. Okay. I spoke at UC Berkeley in 2018, which was really not a saner time
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than it is now. And it was a lot more contained than what you did. I spoke to a large classroom
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and I gave what I thought was a very neutral speech actually, because I went in knowing that it was the
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lion's den, but it was right in the middle of the Kavanaugh saga. And I was one of the main voices kind
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of sticking up for Kavanaugh that it's not right to just accuse a man based on basically nothing and
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to try to ruin his life based on that. And it was the craziest still to this day. It was the craziest
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experience at a college campus that I had ever had. There were students standing up in the middle of
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my speech, screaming, yelling. I was, I was actually taking it back. I mean, I'm a, I'm a Texas girl.
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And so I guess I just thought every, like, surely it's not going to be that insane. It was insane.
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And that was seven years ago. And you saw way more vitriol than I saw. So tell me what went down.
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Well, we call it UC berserkly for a reason, Allie. We had actually gotten into the venue early.
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And, uh, so we were in the venue when most of the, uh, the damage was happening and Antifa was there.
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Obviously they were hurling insults and slurs at the people trying to get in. They set off fireworks,
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which sounded like gunfire. So people were scrambling. You've seen some of the video already.
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Uh, and, uh, at one point some of the TPUSA staff went out there just to try and usher more people
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into the venue and security, TPUSA security said, Hey, get back in the building because it's too
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dangerous out here. So the venue held at least 2000 people. It's a beautiful theater. And they had two
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balconies, uh, that as I say, the whole venue would hold dependent upon how they format it up to 2400.
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Uh, I think there were at least 2000 seats in there and only between 900 and a thousand were filled
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because the university decided not to let certain people in who didn't have their official ticket,
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which is a whole nother thing. We had to, they had to use the university ticketing system.
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And so what happened was, and many leftists went on, got the free tickets and then said they weren't
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going to use them or didn't tell people they weren't going to use them, but they, they wanted to have
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the venue be empty. So 900 to a thousand people courageously got in the doors opened at, let's see,
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I was in there. The doors opened at five o'clock for a six 30 start. And so, uh, a number of people got in
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there, but the university police did not keep the walkway free to allow people to get in. Uh, so
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people were spat on, people were harassed and they were not only harassed getting in alley, they were
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harassed getting out after the, the whole event was over. So the event ended, I want to say it was like
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eight 45. So we started about, I'd say 20 minutes late. And so the, the, the whole event went a little
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about two hours. Yeah. And, uh, Antifa was out there the whole time. It's not a large group of
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people, just a very disruptive group of people. And not all of them were students, Allie. I would say
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that from the reports that I got, cause I wasn't actually out on the sidewalk. Um, most of these
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people were adults. Most of these people were probably George Soros funded, you know, liberal
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agitators. And, uh, Harmeet Dillon, who is in the department of justice and is the top civil rights
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attorney in the country or civil rights law enforcement person, uh, has already sent Berkeley
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a two page letter, uh, that they need to retain all the records because there's probably going to be
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a civil rights, uh, lawsuit brought against Berkeley, which by the way gets, I've heard hundreds of
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millions, if not a billion dollars a year in funding from the United States government. So there are laws
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that say you have to grant equal access. You can't allow a heckler's feet veto to go forward. You
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experience a heckler's veto. In other words, that people were actually in the venue trying to shout you
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down. Uh, none of the people that were Ant, well, I can't say that because the first questioner was
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claimed to be part of Antifa, but he was polite. Uh, nobody in the venue shouted anyone down. They
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were predominantly, uh, Charlie Kirk and TPUSA and supporters and Christians, but people outside the
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Okay, we have, um, we have lots of video that has been playing or will be playing as you're
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describing all of this, but there's one video I just want people to see the cruelty of some of
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these demonstrators. Okay. So for people who can't understand, they're saying F, you're dead,
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homie. So talking about Charlie Kirk, so cursing Charlie Kirk and celebrating his death. And they're
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talking about fascism. They've got the communist symbol, the hammer and the sickle. Um, and then,
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of course, there's all this footage of them being actually violent. I know Chloe Cole was there. She
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is a detransitioner and just like a wonderful advocate for biological reality. She was in attendance
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and she asked one of the police officers, Hey, like, can you escort me out of this crowd and out
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of the car? And the police officer just rolled her eyes at her and said, you'll be fine. And
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apparently the police officers, I just heard from anecdotes, they really were not interested in
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helping Turning Point and helping you guys and kind of just said, ah, it's free speech. These people
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can do what they want. It's like, they didn't want to prevent violence. I think that's probably what's
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going to happen. Uh, when we get to the court case, people are going to realize that's exactly right.
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Isn't it ironic, Allie, that these people who say they're fighting for inclusion, tolerance,
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and diversity would not, will not include you and will not tolerate you for holding a diverse view.
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Right. And they claim that we are the fascists when Allie, I mean, if irony could kill, they'd be dead
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already. Yeah. Okay. Because they're the ones that are the fascists using force to try and shut up
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people that disagree with them and using force to beat up people who are for free speech. I mean,
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they always call Charlie Kirk a fascist. Yeah. We all know that a fascist tactic is to tell
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your opponent to come to the front of the line. Let me give you the microphone so you can freely
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make your case. That's what fascists do, Allie, of course. Yeah. Fascists definitely want a limited
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government and want the people to have the right to keep in bare arms and love free speech and love
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freedom of religious expression. That's a telltale sign of fascism. Yeah. It's,
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it's crazy. Okay. And, um, yeah, I think so much of it is demonically influenced where we're fighting
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against principalities and powers that are supernatural in nature. Uh, and some of these
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people, I mean, I'm sure people have already seen the, uh, gentleman who was beaten up wearing the red
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freedom shirt because it turns out, it appears now that the guy who did that, I mean, you can't make
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this stuff up alley. The guy's first name is Jihad. You can't make this up. And he goes to a mosque
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apparently in Oakland and he was trying to hide his face. He's some kind of rapper. He's got some
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odd name, but his first name is Jihad. I don't have it in front of me. And he was arrested. And so was
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the guy he beat up and the guy he beat up was let go. He was arrested. And of course he's already out
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on bail. Right. Of course. Uh, so Jihad tried to, he tried to pull the, the cross off this gentleman's
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neck who was wearing the red freedom t-shirt and a fight ensued. And, uh, they both were arrested,
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but of course he's already out on bail. By the way, meanwhile, uh, that day, just before, uh, the event,
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I had lunch with a friend of mine who is a pro life sidewalk counselor. His name is Don Blythe.
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Great guy. He's out in Modesto. He came to San Francisco to have lunch with me. And, uh, he was
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arrested on San Jose States, uh, campus not long ago, even though it was an illegal arrest. And he told
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me this, I haven't checked this out myself, but he said in San Jose, now you're supposed to book
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yourself. You have to book yourself. Yeah, I know. I know. It's crazy out there. And can we talk about
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the purpose of government for a minute? Yes. You know what? I actually, I'm, we're going to get into
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that because I saw that your article in Fox news, but can I ask you, well, a couple of things I want
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to ask you a theological, another theological question, and then we can get into the purpose
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of government and capital punishment. But I do want to play this clip of you from UC Berkeley,
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um, sharing the gospel. So God gives us free choice. The problem is we can use our free choice
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to do evil like the shooter did, but can any good come from that? The Bible talks a lot about this.
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We don't have time to get all the details, but the Bible talks about the fact that
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testing produces patience and patience produces character and tribulation leads to hope.
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And it says all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to
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his purpose to be conformed to the image of his son. Doesn't say all things are good. There's a lot of
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evil things out there, but according to God, good things can come from evil, especially to people
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who are called according to his purpose. And one of the ways that you become more like Jesus is
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through evil, man. If you get everything you want, every time you don't become like Jesus,
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you become a me monster. What was the response in the room when you were sharing this biblical truth?
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The response was very positive. The people that got in were courageous supporters of TPUSA.
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I suspect most of them are Christians, but I wasn't sure. So I wanted to make sure I gave them
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Charlie's number one message, my number one message, your number one message, the Bible's number one
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message. And that is we're all sinners. We all need a savior. We can't save ourselves. That there's
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only two things you're going to get in the afterlife. You're either going to get justice or you're going
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to get grace. And I don't want justice from an infinite being. Neither do you. Neither does anybody
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watching. Neither did anybody at UC Berkeley. And the only way we can avoid infinite justice
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is the God of infinite grace who takes justice upon himself, takes our punishment upon himself. And
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then by trusting in him, we're not only forgiven, but given his righteousness. So that's the only
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message I wanted to get across at the memorial. That's the only real message I wanted to get across
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to the folks there at UC Berkeley, other than the question of if God, why evil? We dealt with that
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in my 20 minute talk as well. Yeah, that's so good. I'm so glad that you're doing that series
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right now. And then the other question that I had, and maybe this will lead us into the purpose
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of the government, something that I know in all of these, you know, Antifa protesters, which Charlie
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talked about so much before he died, from what I understand, even privately to people in the
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government saying, look, we got to break up these left wing terror cells. They're serious. They're
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inflicting violence. And that was something that he pushed hard for that those of us who care about
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his legacy should also be focusing on that, especially those with the power to do it in the
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government. But what is it about communism? I see this hammer and sickle. I see these people who say
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they want equality. They want peace. They want everyone to be taken care of. And they say they're
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fighting against poverty. Why always, every single time you see those mantras and those symbols,
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do you see such violence and ugliness and godlessness? Like, why do those things go hand in hand?
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You know, it's interesting, Allie. Our mutual friend, James Lindsay, is a agnostic atheist.
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And about a year before Charlie died, he texted Charlie and he said, Charlie, I'm starting to believe in
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Satan. Because I'm looking at the history of communism in the 20th century, where communist
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governments killed probably 100 million of their own people, communist governments. And so Charlie
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texted him back, if Satan, then God. And James texted back, that would follow. In other words,
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it's the point that if there's evil, there has to be good, because evil is not a thing in itself.
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It's a lack in a good thing. It's like cancer. You know, if you take all the cancer out of a good
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body, you got a better body. But what happens if you take all the body out of the cancer?
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Yeah. You got nothing, right? It doesn't exist on its own. And I say that because the history of
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communism is so poor that only an intellectual could defend it. Okay. I think Thomas Sowell said that.
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Communism and atheism go hand in hand. Why? Well, because in atheism and communism,
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the state is eternal and the individual is expendable. The individual is not eternal.
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In Christianity, the state is not eternal. The individual is. And so we have to have protections
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for the individual against the despotic government. That's what our Bill of Rights is all about.
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On that note, let's talk about the purpose of the government. What is the purpose of the government?
00:19:35.060
Well, biblically and logically, just reasonably, the purpose of the government is to protect innocent
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people from evil by punishing wrongdoers. And that is what Paul talks about in Romans chapter 13.
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And of course, it's mentioned also in Genesis chapter 9. If we had no government, wrongdoers
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would run rampant just like they did almost rampant at UC Berkeley. We need a force to protect
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innocent people from evil and to punish wrongdoers. And when governments cease to do that,
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they cease to become legitimate governments. That's why our founders in the Declaration of
00:20:14.180
Independence listed a long list of abuses that King George had committed against them. And so they
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said, if the government won't secure our rights, we have a right to a new government. And the real
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founder of our Constitution was James Madison, who said, if men were angels, no government would be
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necessary. I mean, if you think about the fact that human beings are not angels, but if we were, would
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we need a government? We wouldn't need a government at all. We'd always treat people well. There's no
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reason to have an outside force prevent evil because nobody would be doing evil and there'd be no wrongdoing
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to be punished. But since we are fallen and we do need a savior, we need a government to protect
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innocent people from evil. And this is where your book, toxic empathy is so important because people
00:21:08.960
think they think one sidedly and you will explain it better than me. So I want you to take it from
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here, Ali, because you explain the fact that people don't see both sides of an issue and they wind up
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supporting the criminal rather than the victim. Can you unpack that for us? Sure. Yes. The media does
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this very well and there are so many examples of this, but in my book, I go through the five subjects
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where we see the media use empathy by hoisting up a particular victim to get you to draw the progressive
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conclusion about something. For example, when it comes to abortion, NPR told this terrible story of
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this woman named Samantha who was pregnant and she found out at 20 weeks that her baby had this fatal
00:21:58.320
fetal anomaly wouldn't live long after birth. And so how NPR tells this story is that to her horror,
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she found out that in the state of Texas, she couldn't get an abortion. That's what she wanted.
00:22:13.060
And so she was forced to carry this pregnancy. She was forced to bear the financial burden of delivery
00:22:19.360
and burying her child. She was forced to go through this emotional distress because she wasn't given a
00:22:24.740
choice because of this cruel, draconian Texas law. So it's all told from the perspective of the mother
00:22:31.180
as the victim in this situation. Never are we told what an abortion entails. Never are we told about
00:22:38.520
this child that she got to be delivered, that she got to be held, that she got to be named, that she got to
00:22:44.060
be kissed and loved and cared for and then buried like the human being that she is. They don't talk about
00:22:51.200
what would have happened if abortion had been allowed. She would have been poisoned, dismembered,
00:22:55.960
thrown away like toxic waste. It was all from the perspective of the pain of the mother who was
00:23:01.820
forced to carry this child to term. So at the end of it, you see all the comments on Instagram
00:23:07.460
on this particular post too. Everyone's incensed. Everyone feels so deeply for this mother. Everyone
00:23:14.120
feels so much empathy for this mother that they draw the conclusion that NPR and Washington Post and all of
00:23:20.040
these outlets want them to draw, which is these pro-life laws are cruel because look at the pain
00:23:25.280
that it causes. This is true when they tell stories about an illegal alien, when they tell the story
00:23:29.740
about the man who feels he was caught and trapped in the wrong body, when they talk about, oh, this
00:23:34.840
person just wants to love who they want to love, or, oh, this criminal had such a hard upbringing.
00:23:40.260
When you focus on their stories, you forget that, okay, well, if I support the policy that this outlet
00:23:45.560
wants me to support, well, then babies die, then women and girls don't get private spaces,
00:23:51.360
then children don't have both a mom and a dad, and then there are a bunch of victims of this person
00:23:56.840
being let out of jail. In economics, that's called the second order of fact. People don't think about
00:24:01.960
the second order of fact of their first decision. And when you're powered by empathy to make a decision,
00:24:07.480
you are blinded to the victim on the other side of the moral equation.
00:24:11.300
Especially when that victim is never brought up. Right. Or the victim is told that that victim,
00:24:20.580
particularly in the pro-life issue, isn't really a person. Right. So that's so well said. And I know
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your listeners, if they haven't gotten toxic empathy yet, they need to get it. Because this is the
00:24:32.300
problem. In fact, I was just looking at a Twitter feed. Elon Musk put this out today, Ali. Someone asked
00:24:39.740
the question, what is the greatest problem facing humanity? And he said, it's interesting to read
00:24:44.940
all the responses in the Twitter feed. But one of them that popped up was from Sad,
00:24:50.600
Glad, I think his name is. Gad Sad, I think. Yeah. He's a professor up in Canada. And he calls it
00:24:57.020
suicidal empathy. Right. Right. Which is similar to, you know, toxic empathy. That people just can't
00:25:03.120
think about both sides of an issue. They get on one side and they advocate for that one side,
00:25:08.600
not realizing the victims on the other side are there. And they're, they're been propagandized to
00:25:17.600
think they're thinking the right way about an issue. And in fact, they're thinking exactly the wrong way
00:25:22.800
about an issue. Yeah. And it's so important. And the whole immigration thing is, is a big example of
00:25:29.560
this. They'll, they'll have some sob story about an immigrant and you'll go, well, we're supposed to
00:25:35.080
bring in the immigrant. Of course. Yes. Okay. But then they'll use that sob story and they will not
00:25:41.840
talk about the 300,000 girls that have been sex trafficked. Probably they're missing in our country
00:25:47.400
right now during the Biden administration. They will not talk about the hundred thousand people who
00:25:52.340
have died from fentanyl overdoses. They will not talk about the terrorists that came across the
00:25:59.340
border. They will not talk about all of the bad things that have occurred from having an open
00:26:06.420
border. They won't talk about the fact that housing prices are up because there's such a demand for
00:26:12.700
housing now with more immigrants or that wages are suppressed because there are more immigrants,
00:26:17.620
illegal immigrants. They will not talk about the cost to the taxpayer on law enforcement, nor will they
00:26:23.760
talk about all the money that is going to illegal aliens that is putting us further in debt.
00:26:29.340
Nor will they talk about the fact that part of the shutdown, which has brought pain to a lot of
00:26:34.400
people, was brought forth by Democrats in order to get illegal aliens health care. They won't talk about
00:26:40.640
any of this because they have this toxic empathy on one side. And I always tell people, look, you, you believe
00:26:48.720
in borders. Do you have a lock on your door? Right. Do you have a password on your bank account? Why don't you
00:26:53.260
just give anybody the password to your bank account? How come you haven't done that? It's not because you
00:26:58.840
hate people on the outside. It's because you love people on the inside and you have a responsibility
00:27:03.620
to take care of your family. As Paul said, if you don't take care of your family, you're worse than an
00:27:08.720
unbeliever. And I love, sorry, I'm rambling here. I'm filibustering now. No, but I love what Vice President
00:27:15.360
Vance said over in Europe back in February. He started talking about Augustine's order of love. Do you remember that,
00:27:23.040
Ellie? Yes, I do. I mean, that was any politician that talks about Augustine's order of loves gets
00:27:28.380
my vote. Yes. And that was people were scandalized or else they acted scandalized about that. And I
00:27:36.480
just, you know, it's kind of like what you were saying. They want to argue against it because in
00:27:40.380
their minds or they could say that lacks empathy. How could you say that we're not supposed to love
00:27:44.520
these other people? But of course, that's how they order their own lives. No one can love everyone
00:27:50.160
equally. It's impossible for us to do that. And we weren't meant to. I mean, God is a God of order.
00:27:56.980
He actually created these systems for us to have order to our lives. He placed us not in a jungle.
00:28:03.800
He placed us in a garden and told us to work and to keep it. From the very beginning, there's a
00:28:08.240
systematized way of doing things that God does not for his sake, but for our good, because we are
00:28:14.000
orderly beings made in his image and families and countries and laws and governments and punishments
00:28:19.400
and rewards are all part of that. That people, they're gifts of common grace that people need
00:28:25.220
to survive and thrive. And people get that, as you said, on the micro level, because they all order
00:28:30.100
their lives that way. They love their kids more. They feed their kids more. They don't let anyone into
00:28:34.320
their house to steal their food. That doesn't make them a loving neighbor. That makes them a bad parent.
00:28:38.620
But when it comes to politics, when it comes to just zooming out a little bit, they don't apply the same
00:28:45.820
standard that they apply to their own lives. And they call us bigots for doing so. And yeah, it can be
00:28:52.940
really hard to rationalize with that. Well, you can't rationalize with the irrational. In fact, we were
00:28:59.440
talking backstage, me, Rob Schneider, Peter Boghossian was there. That was a surprise to me. I don't know
00:29:04.880
Peter, but he's an atheist, but he is trying to save Western civilization because he realizes that
00:29:13.840
the woke left is aligned with the militant Islam faction. And those two forces together will destroy
00:29:22.960
Western civilization. And so we were talking about the fact that some people think that you can reason
00:29:31.900
with people that don't want to be reasoned with. Yeah. I mean, Jesus himself said, don't cast your
00:29:37.320
pearls before swine or else they'll trample you to death. Yeah. Rob Schneider was on Fox and Friends
00:29:43.640
talking about this after the event. I was on before the event. And Rob was saying that the people inside
00:29:52.040
the arena, some of them didn't agree with us, but we had civil conversations. And that's how you have a
00:29:59.200
democracy or a republic, which is what we have, a representative republic. You exchange ideas and
00:30:05.320
you have free speech. The folks on the outside, Antifa and all the protesters, they didn't want to
00:30:10.560
have free speech. They didn't want to have a debate. They wanted to cancel the debate. And so it's not
00:30:17.500
hard to see who is for civilization and who is against it. And let me say one other thing, because I want to
00:30:24.820
make sure we're not guilty of what the left does. I'm not saying everybody that has leftist views
00:30:33.180
isn't for free speech. We need to treat people as individuals. You can have leftist views and be
00:30:41.580
wrong about certain things and right about other things. And I'm not going to say that everybody on
00:30:46.400
the left agrees with Antifa. That's not the case. However, when we look at the surveys and when we look
00:30:53.260
at the actual facts on the ground at these sites, Ali, the surveys show that political violence is
00:31:01.380
predominantly coming from the left. A third of college students think it's okay to use violence
00:31:08.520
against people who are uttering things you don't agree with, where only 3% of very conservative people
00:31:16.600
think that. A quarter to a third of very liberal students think, oh no, that's just fine.
00:31:23.260
Mm-hmm. And I mean, we did just see in the state of Virginia that Jay Jones, who had said that he
00:31:31.480
hopes that his political opponents get murdered and that his political opponent's wife holds their
00:31:38.400
murdered children as they die. That is the kind of tragedy that he wanted to inflict on his political
00:31:44.840
enemies. And he won. He won. And the governor who endorsed him won. And so again, that doesn't mean
00:31:51.380
that every Democrat in the state of Virginia said, yes, I love that. But not enough of them
00:31:56.920
didn't love it. Not enough of them hated it in order for him to lose. And it should have been a very
00:32:03.340
easy loss. But we're in a different age. We're in a very different age than we were even 10 to 20 years
00:32:10.520
ago. Yeah, we are. Rob Schneider the other night put it this way. He said, we're in a cold civil war,
00:32:17.980
which I hope doesn't turn into a hot civil war. But the people who say they're fighting for inclusion,
00:32:25.860
tolerance, and diversity will not include and will not tolerate you for holding a diverse view.
00:32:30.160
Unless the government comes in and ensures that people like me and you and others that are trying to speak
00:32:38.700
freely have that right on college campuses, there's not a lot of hope moving forward.
00:32:44.440
Yeah. Speaking of the government, you wrote an article or you argued for the death penalty for Charlie Kirk's
00:32:51.500
killer. We've talked about the death penalty a lot on this show. That is probably one of the things that I get the
00:32:58.200
most pushback on for being pro-death penalty post-due process in principle because of biblical
00:33:06.420
principles. So tell me your argument for making this statement. Well, Paul in Romans 13 talks about that
00:33:15.680
the ruler does not bear the sword for nothing to punish wrongdoers. And in his day, the sword meant
00:33:21.640
the ability to use capital punishment on a capital crime offender. And so capital punishment was
00:33:30.920
something that both the Old and the New Testament say is a legitimate form of punishment. And even Jesus
00:33:37.740
himself said that because when he's before Pilate, Ali, you remember that Ali, I mean, you remember that
00:33:44.780
a pilot said to him, to Jesus, don't you know, I have the authority to kill you? Jesus didn't say,
00:33:51.460
no, you don't. He said, you do, but you get that authority from above. What's the implication that
00:33:58.700
governments have the authority, legitimate governments have the authority to issue capital punishment for
00:34:04.540
capital crimes. And what so many pro-lifers seem not to get is that, and people even on the other side of
00:34:14.040
the issue, the pro-abortion people say, oh, you're pro-life, how could you be pro-death penalty? Well,
00:34:17.260
there's a stark difference between an innocent baby and a guilty murderer. The innocent baby has done
00:34:23.840
nothing wrong, but the guilty murderer has. And it's actually respecting life because you're saying
00:34:30.080
that you took a person made in the image of God, and the only way you can pay for that crime is for your
00:34:41.200
life to be taken, justifiably so. Now, I hope I, you know, obviously, I think that Tyler Robinson is
00:34:50.360
the true killer of Charlie Kirk. I've talked about all this Candace Owens nonsense on my own podcast,
00:34:56.960
and of course, the trial will reveal all that. But I hope that Tyler Robinson repents,
00:35:04.640
accepts Jesus, and is then executed. Yeah. Amen. I say that I support, I'm against abortion
00:35:12.360
for the death penalty and for the Second Amendment, all for the same reason, because I care about
00:35:19.820
innocent life. I don't think innocent life should be murdered. I think that there should be a just and
00:35:24.800
proportionate punishment to taking innocent life purposely, which Genesis 9-6 says is taking of the
00:35:31.760
murderer's life, and then because I believe that innocent life should also be protected. So people
00:35:37.820
say that there's an inconsistency, but it's actually the same reason for all of them, that people are
00:35:42.200
made in God's image. We matter a lot, and that innocent people need to be protected and not be
00:35:47.360
murdered. People try to overcomplicate that, but it's really not complicated. Exactly. And if the
00:35:54.020
Christian worldview is true, and it is, Allie, people don't really die, they just change locations.
00:35:58.400
Yeah. They go from this life to the next life. And it's not up to us when that happens, except
00:36:04.800
a legitimate government does have the right to either take the life of a guilty murderer or in
00:36:13.080
a just war, and individuals have the right to take life in self-defense. The commandment does not say
00:36:20.140
thou shall not kill, it says thou shall not murder. And so many people don't seem to understand that.
00:36:25.740
There's a difference. There's a difference. Not all killing is sin, clearly, since there are times
00:36:30.760
that God commands his people to kill, as you said, in a just and justified way.
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00:37:53.180
Well, you brought up Candace Owens. You said that you talked about it on your podcast.
00:37:57.680
Could you tell us if people haven't watched what you have already said, what is your take? You know,
00:38:04.000
her proponents say, well, she's the only one seeking truth. She's the only one really investigating.
00:38:08.300
She's trying to figure this out. And then of course, her detractors say, well,
00:38:11.940
this sounds like a conspiracy theory and she's airing out preexisting grievances in the name of
00:38:18.020
investigation. And she could be hurting a lot of people in the process. So how should we think
00:38:23.120
about this? Let me ask you this, Allie. Suppose I were to say that I think Candace Owens is the real
00:38:29.120
killer. And I think the reason she's the real killer is she was upset that Charlie stopped inviting
00:38:35.500
her to the big events. And what she decided to do was have him taken out. So Turning Point USA would not
00:38:46.840
only pay for what they did to her, they would look at her as maybe someone who could succeed Charlie.
00:38:55.100
And then she would be the president. And she's insinuating all sorts of other possibilities in
00:39:05.900
order to prevent her from being found out as the true killer. You would go, Frank, you are crazy.
00:39:15.380
And yeah, I would be crazy to suggest that. It's a possibility though, isn't it?
00:39:21.220
It's a possibility, Allie. I mean, anything's possible, but do I have evidence for it? I have
00:39:29.980
zero evidence for it. And I would never want anybody to send Candace Owens death threats
00:39:39.720
because I'm pushing a possibility without evidence. But you know what? That's what Candace Owens has done
00:39:45.640
to others. My friend, Mikey McCoy is getting death threats. I'm getting emails saying, you never know
00:39:51.380
what could happen to you. You ought to repent. It's one thing to ask questions. It's another thing
00:39:58.800
to present or to insinuate that someone is guilty because you've put a web of possibilities together
00:40:06.520
without any evidence that says that what you're saying is true. And I know there are a lot of
00:40:15.260
unanswered questions about this particular murder and there, there should be. Now, why should there
00:40:23.000
be? I had my friend Jay Warner Wallace, the cold case homicide detective on the show about five weeks
00:40:28.560
ago, a couple of weeks after the murder. And Jim has been a part of several homicide investigations
00:40:35.360
and prosecutions. And here's his main point. The prosecution is never going to tell the public
00:40:42.200
anything they don't need to tell them. The prosecution's goal is to convict the real killer,
00:40:48.700
not quell conspiracy theories. Why? Well, let's put it this way, Ali. If the FBI is right now
00:40:59.840
investigating a second shooter with regard to the Charlie Kirk murder, they're not going to tell the
00:41:06.900
public. Why? Because if they tell the public and then someone comes forward and says, oh, I saw the
00:41:12.760
second shooter. They don't really know if that guy really saw the second shooter or that guy's just
00:41:22.660
trying to make a name for himself and trying to get attention for himself. They have to keep their
00:41:26.880
cards close to the vest. Also, they don't want to taint the jury pool. Also, they don't want to tip off
00:41:32.940
the defense. Prosecutions rarely reveal what they have. They will, though, check into security. I should
00:41:41.680
say conspiracy theories privately. How do I know? Because they checked into me. I don't know if you
00:41:47.380
saw this stupid, the stupid guy in the white hat. He's signaling the killer for Charlie Kirk. I didn't
00:41:55.080
even know about that for the first 30 hours. When I got back to Phoenix after the murder, this was
00:42:01.080
yeah, this was Thursday afternoon. It happened Wednesday about noon. When I finally got back to
00:42:10.680
Phoenix after J.D. Vance came and picked up Charlie on Air Force Two, my wife picked me up and said,
00:42:19.640
do you know that you're the subject of a conspiracy theory? I said, what? What are you talking about?
00:42:23.440
She told me a whole story about the guy in the white hat. Yeah. No, no, Allie, I'm still getting
00:42:29.080
people online saying you're a part of this. And not from Candace. That particular one wasn't from
00:42:35.260
Candace, just from other people. And this is just an example, though, of when people imply things or
00:42:41.220
say things about you, it has a real consequence on your life. Yes. And it's so stupid. Like,
00:42:48.000
why would anybody looking through a scope from 200 yards need somebody 25 feet from Charlie,
00:42:54.580
Charlie in a white hat to tell the shooter, hey, Charlie's over there. He's the one with the microphone
00:43:01.540
under the tent. Why would I mean, he couldn't even see me anyway, if he's looking through his scope.
00:43:07.120
Right. It makes no sense at all. Yet people still believe this. Yeah. And so the FBI actually called
00:43:14.480
me, Allie. And we just have to ask you the question. Were you signaling the shooter? You know,
00:43:20.400
he said, you know, I know this is kind of ridiculous, but I have to ask you, why do they have to ask me?
00:43:25.940
Because what's the defense going to do? Did you check into the guy in the white hat? Did you check into
00:43:30.800
the second shooter? Did you check into this? Did you check into that? And the FBI is going to do all
00:43:35.640
that. Why? Because if they want a real conviction, they don't want any holes in the case, but they're
00:43:41.220
not going to broadcast to the world. We checked into that. We checked into this. Yeah. So would it be
00:43:46.680
plausible to say that someone who is positing the guilt of, you know, all of these other people,
00:43:52.880
people at Turning Point, Mikey McCoy, I believe that the statement was that he acted weird after Charlie
00:43:59.920
died. That was the accusation. And also that he was planning to be some kind of successor, which I
00:44:08.160
don't see any evidence for any of that. And I just think how painful it must be to be someone who was
00:44:13.600
close to Charlie, who watched him die, you too, and be swept up and like, oh, possibly like, were you
00:44:20.160
involved in this? But so would it be plausible to say that making all of those statements publicly,
00:44:25.980
someone with a platform doing that could help the defense and hurt the prosecution?
00:44:31.060
Yeah, of course it could. Look, Candace has a right to ask any questions she wants. I think
00:44:36.620
she crosses a line, an ethical line, not a free speech line, an ethical line when she is insinuating
00:44:43.940
people are guilty without evidence. You know what one of her pieces of evidence was? She had a dream.
00:44:49.400
Charlie came to her in a dream and told her he had been betrayed.
00:44:51.920
Hey, Allie, do you think Charlie Kirk was such a dunce that he hired people around him that were
00:45:02.620
not loyal to him? Doesn't seem like the Charlie that I knew. You really think that's possible?
00:45:07.460
One of the smartest people ever. Yes. I mean, do you think Charlie was such a bad judge of character
00:45:15.940
that he hired people that would turn on him and were secretly scheming against him? I don't have
00:45:24.520
enough faith to believe that. I mean, that takes a lot more faith than believing that some kid who had
00:45:33.880
been radicalized by leftist ideology and was in relationship with a trans person took Charlie out
00:45:42.140
because that's the best evidence we have at this point. Now, all the evidence has not come to bear.
00:45:47.500
By the way, Allie, do you think that the parents of Tyler Robinson, if he was not guilty,
00:45:55.680
would be making a stink about this if he was innocent? Have you heard a word from the parents?
00:46:04.080
No, the parents were the ones that turned him in.
00:46:06.080
I mean, this is like the reverse Occam's razor. You know, Occam's razor says that probably it says
00:46:16.640
don't multiply causes beyond necessity. Probably the simplest explanation is the true explanation,
00:46:23.600
but we need to wait for the trial for all the evidence to come forward. If there's some conspiracy
00:46:28.480
going on there, don't you think that Charlie's friends, Cash Patel and Dan Bongino are going to get
00:46:33.580
to the bottom of it. I might be more skeptical if it was the Biden AG, but these are the friends of
00:46:39.820
Charlie. Charlie had Cash Patel's cell phone and Dan Bongino's. He had everyone's cell phone, Allie. We
00:46:47.400
know that. I mean, he was one of the most well-connected persons among Christians and among politicians
00:46:53.440
ever. And he was 31 years old. This man was not betrayed by people closest to him.
00:47:05.580
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00:48:11.580
Mikey, I just love that man. 23 years old and I was 24.
00:48:18.540
Such a servant. Just a servant. Me and Mikey and Charlie were having dinner in Phoenix in May.
00:48:27.820
And Charlie had to go up to use the restroom. I said, Mikey, you know, Charlie couldn't do much
00:48:32.860
of what he does without you. He said, it's just my honor to serve him. And why did Mikey immediately
00:48:40.400
get on his phone? Candace Owens said, you know, there are three possibilities. You know, when you're
00:48:45.940
struck with a tragedy, number one is you run from it. Number two, you run toward it. Or number three,
00:48:51.880
you freeze. And Mikey did neither of that. Mikey immediately got on his phone. Well, first of all,
00:48:57.960
let me suggest this. There's nothing normal about an abnormal situation. Nobody knows how they're
00:49:06.540
going to react in an abnormal traumatic situation. The only reason I did what I did was because I knew
00:49:13.880
what I would do beforehand because I had thought about it. Because I always was afraid somebody
00:49:19.100
was going to take a shot at Charlie. And I said, look, if I'm there, I got to do something, if I can,
00:49:24.760
anything to try and save them. And so that's why I got in the car. You know what Mikey had been told
00:49:32.200
over and over again by Charlie? If anything happens to me, the first thing you do is you call Erica.
00:49:39.320
Get her on the phone immediately. Now, Erica was in Phoenix. We were in Utah.
00:49:48.880
Mikey did the emergency procedure. That's what you're supposed to do. And anybody in the military
00:49:55.040
or law enforcement knows what I'm talking about. I was in the Navy for eight years. You think about
00:49:59.720
all this stuff before it happens. So when it happens, you don't have to think. You just do what
00:50:06.140
you're supposed to do. What sense would it make for Mikey to run to Charlie when his security team,
00:50:13.660
six guys were already on him. Well, four guys were on him. There are two more there.
00:50:18.860
Right. They were already, they were right there. He would have just gotten in the way.
00:50:24.640
He knew what he had to do and he did it. Yeah. And you know, I don't have any special insight,
00:50:30.040
but I assumed that that thing, as you said, had been rehearsed. And as you said, had been talked
00:50:35.260
about. And Erica said on Fox news to Jesse waters that Mikey called her and said, get the kids,
00:50:42.320
get security. This just happened. And so if that's not what happened or people saying that Erica is
00:50:49.760
lying, like that would be the implication there that she's not telling the truth. Um, and so I just,
00:50:56.200
I really feel for him and the implication that,
00:51:00.040
you know, he was promised to be Charlie's successor and that's why he's speaking at
00:51:04.320
Liberty university again, no evidence of that. I mean, Mikey's not hosting Charlie's show. I don't
00:51:11.020
see like Mikey doing a bunch of interviews out there being like, I'm good. I haven't seen him
00:51:15.980
at a campus stop. He hasn't been on any, like doing any of these debates. There've been a lot of us,
00:51:21.940
you, me, a lot of other people who were in this circle, who have been asked to go to this speaking
00:51:28.320
engagement or go to this campus stop or fill in or do this interview or, or things like that.
00:51:34.600
Not, you know, to take anyone's place, but just because, you know, we're trying to fill in for a
00:51:40.200
friend, but I haven't seen any evidence of Mikey stepping into any realm. I've seen him continue to
00:51:47.040
serve. And so again, I just don't see the proof. And I think it matters a whole lot to put someone,
00:51:53.840
you know, in, in the crosshairs by implying that somehow they were involved in this. That's like
00:51:59.880
a really, really hefty claim to make. Yeah. And it's causing dissension among the brothers
00:52:05.920
and, um, you know, who's urging him to step in more. I am because I think the kid is gifted
00:52:14.120
and I've tried to have several, um, mentoring sessions with him, like I had with Charlie
00:52:19.920
and he just can't do it yet. He just can't. I mean, we, we, we've tried to do it and he,
00:52:25.200
he's just, he's, he's in mourning and he's, yeah. And he's trying to hold it together. I mean,
00:52:30.960
he's a strong kid, but he's a kid. He's 24. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, he, he has the demeanor
00:52:37.560
and the intellect to go once he's trained onto a college campus and be a very attractive
00:52:46.040
ambassador for Jesus. And so I hope at some point he does, but I would bet my life
00:52:53.180
on Mikey McCoy. He did not, he had nothing to do with this. And yet you should see the horrific
00:53:00.680
things people are saying about him. Yeah, man. It's very sad, Allie. It is very sad. And again,
00:53:07.300
Candace, ask as many questions as you want, but don't insinuate people are guilty without evidence.
00:53:13.120
A dream is not evidence. Yeah. Okay. You're not a prophet. Okay. God didn't come to you in a dream.
00:53:23.540
And neither, you know, secret sources also aren't evidence because when something is not verifiable,
00:53:29.560
you know, I've thought a lot about the Kafka trap and it was something that we talked about that you
00:53:34.680
could probably explain way better than me, but we talked about this a lot in 2020 of this Kafka trap,
00:53:41.720
which is, um, you're a racist. And if you deny that you're a racist, you just prove more that
00:53:47.880
you're a racist. And, um, that's kind of what I see a lot with that, that you're guilty or you're
00:53:54.660
part of this and you're only denying it because you are being paid off because you're under pressure.
00:54:01.360
Like you, the only reason you would disagree with me is if you are guilty or you're propping up the
00:54:06.620
guilty or something like that. Well, that becomes this non-falsifiable thing.
00:54:11.780
You know, it reminds me, sorry, it reminds me of an old Monty Python sketch. I think it was from
00:54:17.540
the life of Brian, where is this guy, Brian is mistaken to be the Messiah. And, uh, so the people
00:54:25.640
are saying, you know, you're the Messiah, right? You're the Messiah, right? And he goes, no, I'm not
00:54:30.180
the Messiah. I'm not the Messiah. Yes, you are. You're the Messiah. You're the Messiah. And they keep
00:54:33.160
harassing me. He finds us, okay, I'm the Messiah. And they go, he is the Messiah. You know, it doesn't
00:54:37.940
matter what you say. They are, their conclusion is already made. Whether you affirm it or deny it,
00:54:46.220
they're going to find evidence for their position, what they think is evidence, but it really isn't.
00:54:51.020
That's what's going on here. It doesn't matter what you say, what you deny, what you affirm,
00:54:56.020
the conclusion is preloaded into their investigation. And that's not how you find truth. You don't have
00:55:02.320
your conclusion already, uh, established before you look at the evidence.
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00:56:14.540
Man, you mentioned those mentorship sessions that you would have with Charlie. You've talked about that
00:56:19.120
publicly, going on walks with him. Can you tell us just a little bit more about some of the conversations
00:56:26.920
that you had with him, the ones that you're willing to share before he died? You know, like where his heart
00:56:33.260
was, the questions that he was asking, what was he seeking the Lord about?
00:56:38.840
Yeah, I'll try and do this without getting emotional because it had to do with you, actually.
00:56:47.940
The murder occurred on September 10th. So this is
00:57:10.460
just a month before that I would be there when he got,
00:57:19.460
So Monday during the day we got together in his office
00:57:30.160
He said, okay, I'm going to go have dinner with Eric and the kids.
00:58:02.120
So again, Charlie, what do you want to talk about?