Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1271 ｜ A Catholic & Protestant on the Death Penalty, Immigration & Women’s Roles

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00:01:09.060 A group of Catholic bishops recently released a statement chastising Donald Trump for deporting

00:01:15.100 illegal immigrants, but they didn't make similar statements about other causes like abortion

00:01:19.940 or transgenderism.

00:01:21.260 Why is that?

00:01:22.140 We've got Catholic apologist Trent Horn here today to talk about this and so many other

00:01:27.260 subjects, like why are men now trending religious, but women are trending the other way?

00:01:33.700 How to defend the sanctity of life?

00:01:35.980 We also talk about the death penalty, the Catholic versus Protestant view on that.

00:01:40.480 Such an enriching and educating conversation with my friend Trent Horn.

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00:02:01.620 Trent, thanks so much for coming back to join us.

00:02:04.540 Most people probably know who you are and remember our conversation, but just in case, who are you

00:02:09.160 and what do you do?

00:02:10.020 Sure.

00:02:10.260 My name is Trent Horn.

00:02:11.200 I am a staff apologist for Catholic Answers.

00:02:13.620 I also host the Council of Trent YouTube channel, and I just want to share the faith of Jesus

00:02:19.840 Christ and his church with as many people as I can.

00:02:22.600 I want to lead people away from moral errors when it comes to sins that are killing people's

00:02:27.860 souls, like abortion or sodomy or hatred, racism, whatever it may be.

00:02:32.560 I just want to spread the gospel, and yeah, that's what I like to do.

00:02:37.240 And I can't believe it's been like a year and a half since I was here.

00:02:39.340 I know.

00:02:40.000 And last time we had a really fun debate and discussion.

00:02:43.400 I thought it was fun about Mary, and not every conversation, though, that I have with the

00:02:49.240 Catholic is a debate.

00:02:50.380 Some people, my Protestant listeners, they get angry at that, but not every conversation

00:02:55.680 has to be a debate.

00:02:56.820 Maybe there will be some disagreements today.

00:02:59.280 It's okay.

00:02:59.340 I've got Catholics who say to me, why aren't you taking out your Crusader armor, Deus

00:03:04.000 Volt, and going right in there.

00:03:06.060 I actually did a poll on my channel.

00:03:07.960 I got about 42,000 votes, and it turns out about 30% of the audience for the Council of

00:03:14.360 Trent are non-Catholic Christians.

00:03:16.700 Interesting.

00:03:17.260 Most of them being Protestant, Orthodox.

00:03:19.020 Orthodox, and I think that's great because, I mean, what I do is I want to share God's

00:03:24.200 revelation, and I think being a part of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is important,

00:03:28.180 but really, like, from my heart, especially right now, I've been doing apologetics publicly

00:03:32.040 for over 10 years, like 12 years, I really want to reach the people who are furthest,

00:03:38.780 the most people who are the furthest from Christ.

00:03:41.400 So, like, the very first book I did was Answering Atheism.

00:03:44.140 The second book I did was Persuasive Pro-Life.

00:03:47.000 And so it's like, sometimes I don't like it when Catholics just focus on, and it's important

00:03:51.080 theological issues, you would agree with that, between Catholics and Protestants, but there's

00:03:55.100 a lot of people out there that need to be hearing about Jesus, you know?

00:03:57.880 Yeah, and both of us, both Trent and I, have done lots of debates and discussions, have

00:04:02.180 been very clear about what we believe doctrinally, so there shouldn't be anyone who watches this

00:04:07.160 and say, oh, like, how dare you agree on all of these things?

00:04:10.980 Shouldn't you be more clear?

00:04:12.000 We've both been very clear.

00:04:13.680 But I am, I'm so interested, and you mentioned something, the Deus Volt.

00:04:18.020 I've seen that a lot.

00:04:19.760 And, you know, there's like, there's a side of that in Protestantism, too, that is kind of

00:04:24.520 like very much in that spirit.

00:04:26.280 But can you talk about what that means?

00:04:28.400 And are we seeing more, like, Catholic young men kind of with that attitude of, like, taking

00:04:33.180 up arms and, like, you know, forging a crusade?

00:04:36.320 I have noticed that maybe 20 years ago, obviously there was also the new atheism was a big thing

00:04:41.400 people were debating, but 20 or 30 years ago, like, if you brought up the issue of the Crusades,

00:04:45.960 right, that would be one where Protestants would want to just dunk on Catholics and say,

00:04:50.260 oh, this is why the Catholic Church is bad.

00:04:52.080 Look what it did during the Crusades.

00:04:53.400 But now you'll see a fair number of Protestants, people in the Reformed community, who would

00:04:58.000 say, no, this is awesome.

00:04:59.380 We need to get out there, and we need to drive out the heretics, the infidels, the apostates.

00:05:04.180 We need Christendom.

00:05:05.480 We need Christian nationalism.

00:05:07.600 And I think that there's two extremes when it comes to that.

00:05:10.660 Anything we talk about theologically, there's going to be extremes.

00:05:13.320 On the one hand, the extreme of thinking, oh, well, church and state are completely separate,

00:05:17.720 and the church should never tell the state what to do.

00:05:20.120 No, that's silly.

00:05:20.940 The church should be the conscience for the state.

00:05:23.660 But the other side of glorifying everything that happened in the Crusades, when there were

00:05:28.840 sinful excesses that occurred, it was good to liberate the Holy Land from Muslim conquerors

00:05:36.380 so that you and I can go to those sites today.

00:05:39.540 The saddest thing, when I was in Israel not too long ago, I don't know if it's still the

00:05:42.800 case, but the site of Christ's ascension is controlled by a Muslim trust.

00:05:48.200 I don't know if it's still that way, that one particular holy site was controlled by

00:05:51.820 a Muslim trust, so you don't have iconography.

00:05:54.420 It's much more restricted having worship services there, versus the other sites that are generally

00:05:59.500 controlled by Orthodox or Catholic churches, specifically the Franciscans, who were there

00:06:04.020 in the Holy Land like 800 years ago.

00:06:06.140 But yeah, so to say, but there were things that happened in the Crusades that were sinful

00:06:09.080 and awful, and then Popes, like Pope St. John Paul II, apologized for that.

00:06:14.420 So I think it's about trying to find a balance there.

00:06:16.780 But I do think there is a growing online sentiment of saying, why aren't we as Christians going

00:06:21.720 more on the offense?

00:06:23.500 And I agree, we should go on the offense, but we shouldn't be needlessly offensive when

00:06:29.680 we do it.

00:06:30.160 The only thing that should offend people...

00:06:31.720 It's a good distinction.

00:06:32.400 The only thing that people should be offended by when we speak as Christians should be the

00:06:36.960 truth we profess, not ourselves.

00:06:39.740 Right.

00:06:40.220 Oh, that's a really good distinction, because I think both of us would agree.

00:06:43.900 Like I was interviewing an attorney who fights for religious liberty yesterday, that interview

00:06:49.140 hasn't come out yet, but she was saying, look, I am claiming territory for the kingdom by

00:06:54.620 defending these constitutional rights.

00:06:56.220 And I just love that, because she said, some people seem to believe that being a Christian

00:07:01.000 is the same thing as being a doormat.

00:07:02.900 That if, say, for example, it was a young woman who she wanted at her public school parking

00:07:08.160 spot, she wanted to put a Bible verse there, and the school said no.

00:07:12.580 And of course, she enlisted First Liberty, and First Liberty said, no, that's actually a

00:07:16.900 violation of your freedom of religious expression, and they're not fairly treating you the way

00:07:22.300 that they're treating everyone else, just because you're a Christian, school back down,

00:07:25.360 and all of that.

00:07:26.580 But that is a way, of course, that's, I guess, defensive in some ways, but that is a way

00:07:31.100 for Christians to stand up and say, it's not about our personal power.

00:07:34.960 It's about defending the vulnerable people who want to exercise their Christianity well.

00:07:40.740 So I understand that sentiment of like, okay, no more being a doormat, no more just allowing

00:07:47.040 the culture to take over.

00:07:48.540 Again, it's not about me selfishly.

00:07:50.640 It's about my kids.

00:07:51.580 It's about my grandkids.

00:07:52.500 It's about the child who's being pumped with cross-sex hormones.

00:07:56.080 It's about the child that's being slaughtered in the womb.

00:07:58.640 I want to push back against darkness.

00:08:00.800 Why is it that they can do drag queen story hour in a library?

00:08:04.100 Like, I had a great idea.

00:08:05.160 I would love to get Catholic nuns who are really sweet and charming and do sister story

00:08:10.060 hour.

00:08:10.800 Catholic nun goes full habit, reading kids stories, you know, from the Bible, saint stories.

00:08:15.940 And you've got, it's an interesting thing.

00:08:18.320 Here's like, here's a person dressed in an unusual way.

00:08:21.160 I would like to see more about this.

00:08:22.380 Cause that's the hook, right?

00:08:23.140 With like drag queen story hour.

00:08:24.500 But here it's like, here's someone who's dressed and dresses in a way purposely to show that

00:08:28.320 they are, they are separated from the world and fully united themselves to Jesus Christ

00:08:32.680 to live for him alone, like in a celibate lifestyle.

00:08:34.980 I would like, well, they say, oh, that's religious.

00:08:37.160 You know, you're imposing your religion on people.

00:08:39.340 Right.

00:08:39.700 And you saying that men can be women, which is basically a religious belief because it's

00:08:43.860 rooted in just your feelings, not reality.

00:08:45.720 You can impose that religious view, which is what it is.

00:08:50.140 But I can't have a nun reading sweet stories, kids in a library.

00:08:52.900 What's going on there?

00:08:53.760 Yeah.

00:08:54.040 I think it's, it's such a pervasive belief, especially on the left, but even in what I

00:08:59.480 call like the mushy middle Christians who believe that secular liberalism is a neutral

00:09:05.400 worldview and that everything that comes from it is neutral.

00:09:08.460 And anything that opposes secularism is fascism or Christian nationalism or something like that.

00:09:14.980 Yeah.

00:09:15.400 I did an episode recently called The Four Bad Kinds of Christians, and I used two axes based

00:09:22.280 on the political compass to divide them.

00:09:24.280 Now, I'm not talking about heretics, like the theological questions.

00:09:27.280 I divided it up based on whether you believe in conforming to the world or being very anti-conformity,

00:09:33.360 and then whether you're kind of morally lax or morally rigid.

00:09:36.400 So you want to be in there, you want to balance between all those things.

00:09:39.560 But on the extremes, like if you're really trying to conform to the world, like the mushy

00:09:43.480 middle, you say you conform and morality, you know, that's not that big a deal that you're

00:09:47.120 the typical cafeteria Christian.

00:09:49.060 You want to placate the world and, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to offend people.

00:09:53.620 The other extreme to that is saying, oh, well, I'm going to rebel against everything society

00:09:57.900 thinks is good.

00:09:58.820 And I'm going to be super duper rigorous.

00:10:00.440 And you turn into kind of like a fundamentalist who requires belief in things that God didn't

00:10:06.280 even require himself that left it up for Christians to decide amongst themselves, like saying,

00:10:11.140 oh, well, if you're a Christian, you can't read Harry Potter or something like that.

00:10:14.040 Like, oh, that's kind of opened up for us to discern amongst ourselves or questions like

00:10:18.000 that, or whether you could host a podcast because you're a woman or, you know, something like

00:10:21.120 that.

00:10:22.000 So you're right.

00:10:22.700 Those are the extremes.

00:10:23.400 And I worry that the loud fundamentalist types will make people think, oh, if that's

00:10:28.560 what Christianity is, then I want to be just these easygoing cafeteria Christians that

00:10:32.740 don't offend anybody when there is a balance you can have between the two.

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00:12:18.120 I want to talk about that balance because we're talking about the, you know, Deus Volts and

00:12:28.600 like the, there's a form of like, I would say, and I consider myself reformed Calvinist

00:12:33.640 too, but definitely like within the Calvinist camp and the Tradcath, they kind of like link

00:12:39.020 arms in a lot of this sentiment and the belief that in order to attract men, in order to be

00:12:44.660 a masculine, muscular Christianity, it has to be offensive, not just in the truth they

00:12:49.800 speak, but in, you know, just trying to be as subversive as possible.

00:12:52.940 Well, and they use, uh, the things that I've noticed is they relish abusive, vile insults

00:12:58.960 towards people.

00:12:59.900 It's one thing to speak bluntly about the sins of others.

00:13:04.140 I mean, in Matthew 23, Jesus called the Pharisees, uh, whitewashed tombs, uh,

00:13:09.660 brood of vipers, yeah, iniquity, you know, den of thieves, things like that.

00:13:13.920 But I find that these people, uh, what they do is they'll, they'll focus on people who

00:13:18.320 disagree with them and it'll be very vile, abusive, wretched things you would never think

00:13:22.660 a Christian should say.

00:13:24.420 And completely forgetting, to my mind, both, um, radicals within Protestantism and Catholicism

00:13:30.100 who do this, I wonder, have you read the Bible?

00:13:32.220 Have you read Colossians 3, 8, let no filthy talk, uh, come, come from your mouth.

00:13:36.320 We get the same lesson in Ephesians, speak so that you can impart grace to those who

00:13:40.660 will hear it.

00:13:41.540 Like the, uh, in Timothy, Paul says that the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome,

00:13:46.460 but know how to dispute with opponents with kindness.

00:13:49.100 And to them, it's just, they say, oh, well, that's, I feel like if St. Paul were here today,

00:13:53.580 they would say he was a tone policing feminist.

00:13:56.000 I really believe they would say that about, about him.

00:13:58.500 And, and I, and I means, and that's personally because when, when you convert and become Catholic,

00:14:02.580 like when you're confirmed receiving the oil that strengthens you in the adulthood of your

00:14:06.440 faith, you pick a confirmation saint, like a saint name, someone you admire, you know,

00:14:12.100 ask for their prayers.

00:14:13.220 And the one I picked was Paul because I was a convert in high school.

00:14:16.620 I, you know, I thought religion was for, uh, dumb people.

00:14:20.380 I love science.

00:14:21.300 But then when I watched, uh, honestly, it was evangelicals like William Lane Craig, J.P.

00:14:25.820 Moreland.

00:14:26.240 I was like, oh, they got really good arguments.

00:14:28.360 They're smart.

00:14:28.700 They, they are.

00:14:29.840 And, and so from there and then studying the history of the early church, like I had this

00:14:33.800 radical conversion experience.

00:14:35.220 And so like, I read Acts chapter nine over, I must've read that a hundred times about Paul,

00:14:40.760 Paul's conversion.

00:14:41.620 Though what's funny is he didn't, it doesn't say he got knocked off his horse.

00:14:45.020 That's an urban legend.

00:14:45.960 We always say, oh, he got knocked off his horse.

00:14:47.400 That's from a Caravaggio painting.

00:14:48.920 It doesn't say he was riding a horse.

00:14:49.860 Oh, interesting.

00:14:50.920 It's, it's kind of like, uh, in the, um, or in the nativity, it's like the three wise men.

00:14:55.520 It doesn't say there were three of them.

00:14:56.560 That's tradition, but.

00:14:57.560 Right.

00:14:57.860 There were three gifts.

00:14:59.420 I guess they could have been five wise men and.

00:15:01.860 I'm sure they had an entourage with them.

00:15:03.340 Yeah.

00:15:03.640 Maybe so.

00:15:04.480 But my point though is like, yeah, it was, it was something that just like captivated me.

00:15:09.200 Yeah.

00:15:09.440 And so to see, yeah, I want to really strike that balance.

00:15:12.120 So that's why I think to have a masculine Christianity, you can show, be assertive,

00:15:18.380 but show kindness to others.

00:15:19.500 Like I will have a conversation with someone and I won't shrink away from saying the act of

00:15:24.440 sodomy is sinful.

00:15:25.540 Transgender identity is a mental disorder.

00:15:28.080 Abortion is homicide, the killing of a little human being.

00:15:31.560 But if I'm talking to someone who disagrees, I still want to recognize that they have

00:15:35.080 been, they're not my enemy.

00:15:36.960 The devil is.

00:15:37.800 Right.

00:15:38.000 They've been caught up in the devil's lies.

00:15:39.300 And I got to, I want to through the help of the Holy Spirit to free them.

00:15:42.500 Right.

00:15:42.840 I'm not going to free them if I'm just abusing them.

00:15:44.780 Right.

00:15:45.540 That's what I really tried to do.

00:15:47.000 And I felt the Holy Spirit helped me do it because in my flesh, I would never have.

00:15:50.180 But when I was doing that Jubilee debate, which you should do Jubilee, by the way, they need

00:15:54.280 to find a subject.

00:15:55.320 Yeah.

00:15:55.640 I sent in an application and might've got lost in the mail, but I will, I'll keep knocking

00:16:00.240 on the door, but in the word for me.

00:16:01.700 But, but yeah, I think you, you showed there.

00:16:04.060 And I think a lot of the Christians have been on Jubilee.

00:16:06.320 Um, everyone that, that I can think of, and even non-Christians like Ben Shapiro, but when

00:16:11.140 Charlie Kirk was on there, Lila was on there, it was, that is the demeanor that works.

00:16:18.900 For example, the non-Christian who was the most successful on the Jubilee podcast is Alex

00:16:23.700 O'Connor.

00:16:24.460 He's an atheist.

00:16:25.420 I haven't watched that.

00:16:26.340 Watch it.

00:16:26.900 You'll see he, uh, he, he turns a lot of the Christians into pretzels and he, but he does

00:16:32.080 it in a very, now he's British, so it already helps him come off air.

00:16:35.600 Oh, it helps you just very refined and gentlemanly and just soft and inviting.

00:16:40.140 It's just, but he does it with a very calm, cool, and collected manner.

00:16:44.940 Yeah.

00:16:45.360 And people will listen to that instead of you just being, if you're vile and abusive, I

00:16:49.540 would say, look, if someone did that to you, is that going to convert you?

00:16:52.540 Right.

00:16:53.240 Right.

00:16:53.620 So it's not going to convert them.

00:16:54.820 Yeah.

00:16:55.000 I got some criticism from that crowd.

00:16:57.560 You know, I wasn't harsh enough or I wasn't aggressive enough.

00:16:59.980 And it's always funny, you know, when people from the peanut gallery are like, they would

00:17:03.980 claim that they would have done a certain way, but I just remember going in there and

00:17:07.520 thinking, okay, I'm going to out gentleness them.

00:17:10.240 I'm going to out love them.

00:17:11.360 And truly some of them surprised me with how gentle and kind they were to me.

00:17:15.520 So I can't say I was the only one.

00:17:17.100 A lot of them were just very kind and very polite, which really set the tone.

00:17:20.840 But if you decide that you're going to be unflappable because the only person you were

00:17:26.340 trying to honor is the Lord, then that just takes a huge relief off of you that all you

00:17:31.480 have to do is tell the truth.

00:17:32.760 That's why I think it's so much simpler to be pro-life and to be, you know, pro the reality

00:17:38.260 of gender because all you have to do is tell the truth.

00:17:40.160 You're being kind, but you're not worrying about pleasing these people's feelings to say,

00:17:45.480 look, if they still take it the wrong way, that's not my problem.

00:17:48.700 Right.

00:17:48.880 I was being kind, I treated them with respect.

00:17:51.520 So that's where the extreme comes, where you do everything you can to make people happy

00:17:55.380 and be a people pleaser.

00:17:56.700 That's wrong.

00:17:57.480 But if they're still upset, odds are it's not you.

00:18:00.240 They're upset about the truth.

00:18:02.020 And so, yeah, I think that that's exactly right.

00:18:03.800 Being kind to them.

00:18:04.560 It reminds me what Paul says in the letter to the Romans, quoting back to the Proverbs,

00:18:08.140 saying that kindness to an enemy is like pouring hot coals on their head.

00:18:11.620 Like they just absolutely can't stand that.

00:18:13.260 Right.

00:18:13.760 Yeah.

00:18:14.000 Right.

00:18:14.380 Yeah.

00:18:14.600 That makes total sense.

00:18:15.700 And so like the masculine Christianity that I think a lot of people rightly crave, we don't

00:18:21.220 want like an overly feminized Christianity, but a strong, muscular Christianity pushes back

00:18:26.640 against darkness, speaks the truth in love totally boldly.

00:18:30.920 And I do think like when you talk about the Crusades, I mean, I just had someone on who

00:18:35.480 talked about that it was actually from agape love that many of those men were pushing back

00:18:40.140 against Islam and it doesn't look the same today, but there is still a responsibility

00:18:44.560 that we have.

00:18:45.660 When you see innocent people, and that's where a true masculinity is very important, that

00:18:51.760 men want to fight evil, literally with their hands, you know, and then being able to go

00:18:58.160 and do this, say, look, here are people, innocent people living in the Holy Land or being killed,

00:19:02.380 being beheaded, being enslaved.

00:19:04.500 Someone needs to do something.

00:19:05.920 And we have the same thing today.

00:19:06.760 We've got children who are being dismembered in the womb, children being dismembered outside

00:19:10.980 of the womb through so-called gender reassignment surgery, mutilation surgery, well, just mutilation

00:19:16.040 is what it is.

00:19:16.920 All of these things that are happening to say, okay, someone needs to do something when you

00:19:20.460 need to fight, but you also have to remember, hey, you gotta, you gotta fight smart.

00:19:25.080 Cause if you just go in like a bull in a China shop, you can do more damage.

00:19:28.780 You have to learn how to, um, fight in a smart way.

00:19:31.980 And I think that's good for, for Christian men, especially to lean into that and learn.

00:19:36.320 Like, for example, I've been doing a Brazilian jujitsu for about three years.

00:19:39.360 That's awesome.

00:19:40.000 Oh, it's a super fun hobby.

00:19:41.260 Yeah.

00:19:41.460 And I've met like a ton of Catholics and Protestants who also do it.

00:19:46.680 Actually, I had a dialogue with a Protestant pastor.

00:19:50.180 Uh, I went down to the gym where he trained, we rolled and fought with each other.

00:19:54.320 And then we, we, we, then we had a dialogue about baptisms.

00:19:56.600 We had a literal physical fight and a theological fight, but we can be, uh, on good terms with

00:20:02.360 each other and understand like when you learn a martial art, whether it's jujitsu, judo,

00:20:06.620 Muay Thai kickboxing, whatever, whatever it may be, you learn how you learn at the very

00:20:11.620 beginning.

00:20:11.840 If you come out, just swing in and you're just, just fighting with blood pressure and

00:20:15.880 red in your eyes, you're going to get demolished.

00:20:18.120 Yeah.

00:20:18.560 But you, but as a man, you learn to harness your strength and fight in a smart way.

00:20:22.000 And that allows you actually to defeat people that are bigger and stronger than you.

00:20:25.540 And the same thing when we're taking on our culture, they're bigger than stronger than

00:20:29.100 us in, in influence and demographics and money and funding.

00:20:32.480 So as Christians, we need to tap in, especially that masculine wanting to fight energy.

00:20:36.620 She's got to do it in a smart way.

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00:21:41.440 Tell me, what is traditionally the Catholic view of the role of women?

00:21:46.280 I would say traditionally the Catholic view of the role of women is that women have a unique

00:21:53.000 feminine gift to offer to the church.

00:21:56.980 I would say the traditional role of lay people is to mirror the love of the Trinity, the self-giving

00:22:04.260 love of the Trinity, the Father and the Son, behold one another in perfect love, and from

00:22:09.720 their love, what proceeds from both of them is the Holy Spirit.

00:22:12.180 Okay, so we, you know, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

00:22:16.340 And so we look at that Trinitarian love, and that's reflected in the sacrament of marriage.

00:22:20.600 A husband and wife fully behold one another, and they fully receive one another, and a new

00:22:26.080 person flows from their love.

00:22:28.140 And so I think the role, when we look at the role of women, it's similar to the role of men

00:22:31.660 in that for most people, they'll be called to the bond of matrimony and to build up the

00:22:37.540 domestic church.

00:22:38.820 And so both men and women play a role in that.

00:22:41.820 I would say traditionally, women would have a role within the domestic church of the

00:22:47.220 home of raising children, of bringing them up in the faith.

00:22:50.880 But women have very unique gifts to offer the body of Christ in a lot of different ways.

00:22:55.060 There have been saints throughout history, things like St. Joan of Arc, I think of St.

00:22:58.600 Catherine of Siena, for example, who told the Pope, hey, I know we're having political

00:23:03.500 instability now, and you have to flee from Rome to be in Avignon, France.

00:23:07.280 You got to get back to Rome already.

00:23:09.620 And so, and we've had wonderful doctors of the church, female Catholic scholars, people

00:23:16.800 like Blessed Eda Stein, for example, as a philosopher.

00:23:18.920 So I would say there's a preference for women to have a maternal role within the home, but

00:23:25.680 that doesn't preclude some women having special gifts to bless the body of Christ with.

00:23:32.140 Whereas though, for men are called uniquely to be in the person of Christ in a pastoral

00:23:37.960 role in the church.

00:23:39.400 It's like when Paul says, I don't want women to teach in the church.

00:23:42.240 Well, we don't want anybody to teach in the church who doesn't have the sacrament of holy

00:23:44.560 orders.

00:23:45.140 That's the priest's job.

00:23:46.720 And that is given to them because they stand, you know, they stand in the person of Christ.

00:23:51.200 And that's been a tradition for 2,000 years of the priesthood being reserved for men.

00:23:55.840 Right.

00:23:56.360 I think in principle, from the Protestant side, I agree with all of that.

00:24:00.360 And I think about, you know, my good Catholic friends like Lila and Liz and Isabel Brown is

00:24:04.680 that, you know, we all agree on that, that our priority is a special and unique role that

00:24:11.060 we have as moms and as wives that no one else can fill.

00:24:15.080 And none of us aspire to be a priest or a pastor or take a role in the church that we

00:24:20.560 are not called to have because I trust the Lord and I see his just like beauty and his

00:24:25.380 design of our bodies and of marriage and how the church reflects that so well.

00:24:30.860 But also that many women have been given the gift of gab, have been given the gift of speaking

00:24:36.680 and that we can channel that in certain ways to glorify him.

00:24:39.860 I do believe that women can have a place in the public sphere.

00:24:43.780 It doesn't look or sound, shouldn't look or sound the same as men, but there are women

00:24:47.940 who are called to teach women.

00:24:49.160 And the idea that for women to be in the public sphere, they have to ape or copy men, that's

00:24:53.380 feminism.

00:24:54.080 Right.

00:24:54.420 And that's wrong.

00:24:55.380 Yeah.

00:24:55.540 For women to be successful, they have to act and be just like men.

00:24:59.900 And that's not the case.

00:25:01.160 I'll give you an example of women benefiting the church.

00:25:03.260 So my friend, Stephanie Gray Connors is, I would say, probably one of the best pro-life

00:25:10.260 apologists in the world.

00:25:11.780 I have seen her debate and take apart pro-abortion philosophers, abortionists in debates.

00:25:18.640 And she does it in a uniquely feminine way where she's very kind about it.

00:25:23.600 And people just are so enthralled with her kindness as she philosophically turns the knife

00:25:27.960 into the guy and just eviscerates their argument.

00:25:31.300 I have met her before.

00:25:32.460 Yeah.

00:25:32.860 So now she has retired from that to be a mother to her young children.

00:25:40.580 But I've told her, like, if I ever couldn't do a debate, like my first backup, like if

00:25:45.420 someone had to fill in for me for a pro-life debate, it would be her.

00:25:47.960 Yeah.

00:25:48.340 Because she has that unique gift.

00:25:50.980 And I can see it as even superior to many other men I know who argue on abortion.

00:25:54.800 And I'm not going to downplay the gift she had in doing pro-life apologetics just because

00:26:01.000 she's a woman, because she's been blessed with it.

00:26:03.560 You know, the church and the world at large benefit more from it.

00:26:07.020 So I think women who have these authentic gifts, we should find ways for them to do that.

00:26:11.360 And Pope St. John Paul II, and really since in the past few decades, popes have said that

00:26:16.420 women should be given equality, but also an equality that recognizes their unique roles.

00:26:21.920 So having flexibility to care for children, having work arrangements that be able to prioritize

00:26:26.700 them in the home.

00:26:28.280 Pope St. John Paul II talked about the need for a new kind of feminism.

00:26:31.460 That was in his encyclical, The Gift of Life.

00:26:35.320 I don't like the word feminism.

00:26:37.320 Right, me neither.

00:26:38.160 But I just think it's a toxic word that doesn't help at all.

00:26:42.460 I just think that, look, treat men and women as having equal dignity and having unique gifts

00:26:48.380 that really do build up the kingdom.

00:26:50.400 Yeah.

00:26:50.680 Okay, speaking of wives and moms, how is your wife doing?

00:26:54.540 I know she had a cancer diagnosis not too long ago.

00:26:57.220 How is that going?

00:26:58.680 Well, so she, yeah, she had a, all we knew is that there was some kind of tumor inside

00:27:03.980 of her brain.

00:27:04.400 What's funny is for a long time, she'd always feel like, I feel like there's something not

00:27:06.560 right in my head.

00:27:08.240 And we were like, that's just having kids.

00:27:09.980 You know, you think like kids are driving you crazy.

00:27:12.060 Like you kids are making my head hurt.

00:27:13.860 It's like, oh, actually.

00:27:14.920 And sometimes the body just feels weird.

00:27:16.660 Yeah, exactly.

00:27:17.180 So, and then we went and we went and got, we went to do typical, you know, parents with

00:27:24.800 young kids date.

00:27:25.700 Our date was we went to a free study and we got to go out for four hours and they pay

00:27:30.080 us 400 bucks and do an MRI and ask us questions and get tacos after.

00:27:35.120 Like, okay, that's what millennial parents do when they go on a date.

00:27:38.280 And then they called us back a few weeks and they told her like, Hey, we saw something

00:27:40.940 weird in your MRI.

00:27:41.840 Should I go in?

00:27:43.260 And I was just so insufferably optimistic.

00:27:45.160 I was like, it's probably a smudge.

00:27:46.800 I don't think it's anything.

00:27:48.460 And then you find out it's a tumor.

00:27:50.400 You don't know exactly what it is.

00:27:51.760 Right.

00:27:52.340 And we made the decision just to go in and have it removed.

00:27:54.420 That's always like, do you, you know, do you fiddle around in the brain or not?

00:27:57.900 Because if you wait, what if it gets worse, but things can go wrong in brain surgery.

00:28:01.660 Now we knew it's in her speech center and she's a, she's a funny chatty little gal.

00:28:05.420 That's what I've always, uh, that was the first thing that just like check the boxes

00:28:09.100 for me knowing that like, you know, Oh yeah, this is, this is the person that's right for

00:28:13.100 me.

00:28:13.800 Um, and so she did that back in July.

00:28:16.160 It was a, I mean, that first month, um, she could barely speak.

00:28:21.060 We went on a walk and she could only walk her brain surgery.

00:28:23.580 Yes.

00:28:23.920 Cause it was in her speech center.

00:28:25.060 So they had to take parts of that out.

00:28:26.500 So we would walk down the road on a walk.

00:28:29.460 She'd walk me like a hundred feet and I'd point to things and say, what's that?

00:28:32.980 Like a squirrel.

00:28:33.700 And she's like, that's a banana.

00:28:35.420 I mean, but in her head, she knows it's squirrel.

00:28:37.400 She knew she just couldn't say it.

00:28:38.480 Couldn't say it.

00:28:39.160 Wow.

00:28:39.420 That's so frustrating.

00:28:40.340 So she had, she had, she had aphasia.

00:28:42.680 Uh, and this usually happens to older people who are suffering from the degeneration of the

00:28:48.720 brain where they try to say words, but they can't get the right word out.

00:28:53.000 Or they say nonsense words that they think it sounds right to them, but you and I can't

00:28:57.560 understand them.

00:28:58.200 Yeah.

00:28:58.480 So she had that, but, but she's really, really improved.

00:29:02.000 In three months, she went from saying squirrels or banana to now it's just kind of like a

00:29:06.260 light stutter if she's nervous.

00:29:08.080 Okay.

00:29:08.640 Um, but it's hard, you know, you get tired, you get, um, and things that, you know, women

00:29:12.900 deal with.

00:29:13.340 She, I was great.

00:29:13.900 She had another thing also for, um, benefits.

00:29:17.340 She had a, uh, female neurosurgeon.

00:29:20.120 The male neurosurgeons were too nervous to do it.

00:29:23.000 Really?

00:29:23.520 Well, it's, it's, they were like, I'd rather do watch and wait.

00:29:25.900 I don't know if I want to do this particular one, but she's, and she's world-class.

00:29:30.220 She went in there, got it out perfectly.

00:29:33.060 And when they did the follow-up MRI scan, couldn't see anything else in there.

00:29:37.880 We got a scan saying that it was a very, very low, basically there's a kind of brain

00:29:43.240 tumor that comes up in 3% of cases.

00:29:45.420 That's the best kind you could get.

00:29:46.780 Oh, good.

00:29:47.440 And she got that one.

00:29:48.340 Wow.

00:29:48.780 And you can only find that out by doing an autopsy later on the little stuff.

00:29:51.700 Uh, but she had, you know, she had a female brain surgeon that did it really well.

00:29:55.480 And because her surgeon was a woman, she made certain, you know, I'm not going to shave

00:29:58.720 your whole head.

00:29:59.600 Yeah.

00:30:00.000 I know that's a, that's a big deal for him.

00:30:01.420 I'm not, I'll just be able to do it, do a little bit here.

00:30:03.920 But even then, you know, it's still hard for women.

00:30:05.560 She told me, if you tell Allie Bestuck, you tell her, I want her hair.

00:30:08.700 I just want it as like a wig.

00:30:11.040 You, you were Lila Rose.

00:30:12.600 She's like, she'd keep it long.

00:30:13.420 Oh yeah, Lila has amazing hair.

00:30:14.460 So she would just, uh, like that, but yeah, so she's, um, she's a, she's a real soldier.

00:30:19.280 She's really, I'm so glad that she's improving.

00:30:21.880 I've heard that recovery from brain cancer, it just saps your energy for a really long

00:30:25.960 time.

00:30:26.620 Yeah.

00:30:26.900 She's, she still gets tired.

00:30:28.260 She gets lightheaded.

00:30:29.400 And we have a five-year-old, an eight-year-old and a 10-year-old, all boys.

00:30:33.520 Oh my goodness.

00:30:34.320 I don't know if I realized you had all boys.

00:30:36.000 Wow.

00:30:36.440 Dude, I love it.

00:30:37.260 Yeah.

00:30:37.540 It is.

00:30:38.180 So fun.

00:30:38.400 We have three girls, so.

00:30:40.180 That's what, what is so funny.

00:30:41.340 So Laura only has sisters.

00:30:43.060 Yeah.

00:30:43.500 So our household is very foreign to her.

00:30:45.700 Yeah.

00:30:45.900 She didn't grow up with brothers.

00:30:46.900 Right.

00:30:47.360 Totally different.

00:30:48.140 But our household is, is lightsabers, uh, X-Men and Batman cartoons, wrestling, jujitsu.

00:30:55.460 Like I'm excited for the boys to be like big teenagers to give me some pushback.

00:30:58.800 My goal to do jujitsu is I want to be that I have to be like 70 when they can finally overpower

00:31:05.180 me.

00:31:05.460 That's a good goal.

00:31:06.520 That's my goal that even when they're adults, like now grandpa's still got some moves.

00:31:09.660 Yeah.

00:31:10.200 So, but yeah, the prayers are appreciated.

00:31:12.220 Yes.

00:31:12.400 We'll be praying for her just full recovery, that her energy will be restored very quickly.

00:31:16.600 So thanks for sharing about that.

00:31:18.640 Of course.

00:31:23.220 All right.

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00:33:03.400 About immigration and rebuking immigration raids.

00:33:07.100 So we can't play the entirety of the five-minute clip.

00:33:09.580 Trent did see it before, so we know the context.

00:33:11.840 But here's part of that.

00:33:12.940 It's not six.

00:33:14.100 As pastors, we, the bishops of the United States, are bound to our people by ties of

00:33:20.040 communion and compassion in our Lord Jesus Christ.

00:33:23.400 And we are disturbed when we see among our people a climate of fear and anxiety around

00:33:29.140 questions of profiling and immigration enforcement.

00:33:32.500 We are saddened by the state of contemporary debate and the vivification of immigrants.

00:33:39.020 We are concerned about the conditions in detention centers and the lack of access to pastoral care.

00:33:45.920 We lament that some immigrants in the United States have arbitrarily lost their legal status.

00:33:52.060 We are troubled by threats against the sanctity of houses of worship and the special nature of hospitals and schools.

00:33:59.240 We are grieved when we meet parents who fear being detained when taking their children to school

00:34:05.560 or when we try to console family members who have already been separated from their loved ones.

00:34:13.820 Okay, so that was kind of long, but I wanted people to see as much context as we could.

00:34:18.700 What are your initial thoughts on that?

00:34:21.020 It's a mixed bag.

00:34:22.240 Yeah.

00:34:22.740 I mean, I think the Catholic Church, its teaching that you find in the catechism is a very moderate

00:34:28.400 and a sensible position on immigration, that you have to balance, there are two rights.

00:34:33.640 So there is the right of a nation to be a nation, to secure its borders and regulate who resides within those borders and who does not.

00:34:43.760 That if you don't have borders, you don't have a nation, okay?

00:34:47.180 On the flip side, though, there is the right of migrants to pursue safety and security for their families,

00:34:55.600 which may involve having to go to another country to seek safety,

00:34:59.320 especially when they're fleeing things like genocide, ethnic cleansing, war, dire extreme poverty, things like that.

00:35:06.960 So those must always be balanced.

00:35:09.500 And the catechism says that the prosperous nations, to the extent they are able—qualifier there—should welcome immigrants.

00:35:18.140 But that immigrants, when they're welcome, they have a duty to assimilate into the culture that accepts them

00:35:23.860 and to respect their host country where they now reside.

00:35:27.760 So I think a lot of times we err in these policies when we focus on one end of it rather than all of it.

00:35:35.600 And I saw the whole video of what the bishop said.

00:35:39.100 A few things pop out at me.

00:35:40.600 One, I don't like a little bit of equivocation on the word immigrant.

00:35:44.040 If you notice in that episode, in the longer clip, they just talk about immigrant over and over and over again.

00:35:48.320 But we really need to distinguish immigrants from illegal immigrants, those who enter a country and break the law in doing so,

00:35:57.740 which would be applied everywhere.

00:36:00.540 If I try to go to Australia, for example, for—they've got a good health care system there.

00:36:05.240 There's people who do that.

00:36:06.020 I watched a whole documentary on it.

00:36:08.020 They'll grill you to make sure you're not sneaking into the country to do that.

00:36:10.560 And if they see you're doing it, they're going to send you on another flight out of the country.

00:36:15.140 So I think that we should make that distinction.

00:36:17.980 And what the bishop is doing here, we as Catholics, would call prudential judgments.

00:36:22.380 Prudence is trying to use reason to get to the good.

00:36:25.920 So how do we get that?

00:36:27.340 How do we balance all of this?

00:36:28.940 And prudential judgments that bishops, even the pope makes, a Catholic could reasonably disagree with those judgments.

00:36:35.820 They should give them respect, but you could reasonably disagree.

00:36:38.220 So there's things they said that I do agree with.

00:36:40.360 I think that there's some rhetoric about immigrants that dehumanizes them, that is harsh or cruel.

00:36:46.120 In some ways, even illegal immigrants are treated.

00:36:48.920 Even if you're a criminal, it doesn't mean you lose your dignity.

00:36:51.320 So if you're kept in a detention center—there was an article I read the other day saying there was a prison in Florida.

00:36:55.620 The heat index said it was 119 degrees for the inmates there.

00:36:59.020 Like, even if you're a criminal, you should not be subject to conditions where your life and safety are in danger.

00:37:04.740 It's basically torture.

00:37:05.400 Exactly, yeah.

00:37:05.880 People shouldn't be tortured, shouldn't be dehumanized.

00:37:08.420 You also have rights to other things, not just a right to, like, you know, food, water, basic climate control.

00:37:13.300 You also have the right, even as a criminal, to religious expression, like being able to see a priest for receiving communion or confession or to be baptized.

00:37:23.180 I think Protestants can even agree with this.

00:37:25.120 Like, a pastor, if there's a prisoner who says, hey, I want to see a pastor and be baptized, yeah, you shouldn't be like, no, you can't come in and do that.

00:37:32.340 So those things that the bishops have protested, I say, yeah, those are legitimate problems.

00:37:36.020 But other things I am, I think you'd agree with me on this, I am suspicious that I see the bishops all gathered together to make videos like this, but I don't remember a video like this when Joe Biden was implementing an anti-life abortion regime.

00:37:52.800 Right.

00:37:53.520 And even more hypocritical, frankly, when under President Obama there were higher deportation rates than under President Trump.

00:38:02.380 I don't remember the bishops making videos like this.

00:38:04.940 So it screams of a kind of partisan favoritism when that stuff happens.

00:38:09.900 I don't like it.

00:38:10.500 Yeah.

00:38:10.720 We see the same thing with Protestants who, for example, okay, when the George Floyd incident happened, I don't think the uproar would have been as loud if Biden had been president.

00:38:21.820 But it was kind of a perfect storm of things because it was all of that happened and it was an election year in which, you know, Joe Biden was running against Trump.

00:38:31.620 And people had gone a little cuckoo being locked in their homes.

00:38:35.140 I do believe that was a part of people.

00:38:36.840 They want any excuse to get out and let their craziness out.

00:38:40.020 Yeah.

00:38:40.420 And they did.

00:38:41.220 And so we see a lot of Protestants do this, that suddenly their justice muscle is very strong when Trump is in office.

00:38:48.940 And it's very weak when Trump is out of office.

00:38:51.960 And it's almost just a way, and I know this is kind of overused, but to virtue signal against Trump.

00:38:57.200 But it's not something that they're interested in talking about when Trump is not in office.

00:39:00.900 And same thing with abortion.

00:39:02.220 Same thing when it comes to gender.

00:39:04.600 They're not as incensed about that as they are about something that they can use against Donald Trump.

00:39:10.120 Yeah, and I think that for any Christian, including Christians, conservatives, people on the political right, we have to be aware of that as well.

00:39:17.080 We don't want to be tribalistic.

00:39:18.640 Yeah, that's true.

00:39:19.580 We want to put Christ first.

00:39:22.640 We want to put the faith first.

00:39:24.700 And if you start making excuses for your guys in power, that's the problem.

00:39:29.880 So I had people who were critical of me when I was pointing out the problem of President Trump wanting to expand in vitro fertilization in the name of pro-life and having babies.

00:39:40.260 There's lots of other things we could do to help people have babies.

00:39:42.080 We could do something about deregulation to increase the housing supply so people can buy a decent starter home and have their kids.

00:39:49.460 Let's start there.

00:39:50.520 Not a process where human embryos, many of them are intentionally discarded and killed or kept in frozen storage or whatever.

00:39:59.280 Let's not.

00:40:00.080 Why are we doing that?

00:40:01.620 That's certainly not pro-life.

00:40:03.260 And I'm not going to make excuses just because a president who supports it has been helpful in other pro-life things.

00:40:07.600 Everybody has to be held to count.

00:40:09.540 Yeah, agree with that.

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00:41:19.660 We've seen the Pope say some things about immigration and things like that, Pope Leo.

00:41:30.240 And he also made a comment that I think we talked about at the time, and I don't think I have it in front of me,

00:41:34.780 but I'm just interested in what you think.

00:41:36.380 He was like, you can't be pro-life, and you can't just be against abortion.

00:41:41.500 You also have to care about the treatment of immigrants, and you also can have to be against the death penalty.

00:41:47.840 I disagree with that.

00:41:49.080 I'm sure there are a lot of Catholics who disagree with that, but what is your thought?

00:41:53.100 Just on that phrasing, the death penalty will take us down a very long rabbit hole,

00:41:58.020 but I hate the dilution of the phrase pro-life.

00:42:04.220 I hate it.

00:42:05.520 If every issue is a pro-life issue, then no issue is a pro-life issue.

00:42:10.340 People will try to just make everything pro-life.

00:42:12.520 It doesn't make you care about it as much as abortion.

00:42:15.200 It just makes, oh, if everything's a pro-life issue, well, I can't deal with everything,

00:42:18.240 so I'm not going to deal with anything.

00:42:20.700 That's what I don't like.

00:42:21.480 For me, pro-life has a very, very specific meaning.

00:42:24.420 It's about securing the right to life of human beings.

00:42:28.920 Some people might say innocent human beings, and so there's a small element where the death

00:42:33.480 penalty is in.

00:42:34.140 But even like, you know, I'm opposed to the death penalty.

00:42:35.680 I'm going to submit to the church on that teaching.

00:42:37.260 But even there, like, there are more people working to end the death penalty than there

00:42:42.760 are people on death row.

00:42:44.320 So it's like, I think we have the basis covered.

00:42:46.960 There are way more children in danger of being aborted.

00:42:50.240 Or to take other examples, what would fall under pro-life then, euthanasia and assisted

00:42:53.960 suicide.

00:42:54.960 One in 25 people in the country of Canada were killed by assisted suicide.

00:43:00.420 One in 25.

00:43:02.280 And you have people in Canada who are applying for assisted suicide.

00:43:05.160 They call it medical aid and dying, because they don't want to be homeless.

00:43:09.100 They're sick, and they're worried about living on the street, and they'd rather be dead.

00:43:11.960 And the government's processing their applications.

00:43:14.480 So I think that when it comes to immigration, unless you have a policy where you shoot people

00:43:20.580 the second they come over the border, it's not a pro-life issue.

00:43:23.840 Now, we have to remember also, when it comes to Catholicism, this is a global church.

00:43:27.900 Like, American Catholics, I think, make up like 6% of the world's Catholic population.

00:43:32.800 It's like, it's not all about us.

00:43:33.940 A lot of the issues, when you look at immigration and migrants, like, there are things that happen

00:43:38.100 in North Africa called desert dumping, where people will try to get to Europe.

00:43:42.720 So smugglers will put them in boats or take them in caravans.

00:43:46.500 And instead of taking them to Europe, they'll dump them in the Libyan desert to die.

00:43:50.420 You know?

00:43:51.000 And so the Pope is saying, like, that's certainly not pro-life, if that's what you're...

00:43:54.500 And if you're a government and you just hope immigrant migrants will be taken care of

00:43:58.300 in that way, you know, it's like, yeah, that would fall under it.

00:44:01.500 But simply just deporting people to a country where it's economically depressed, that's

00:44:06.960 not a pro-life issue.

00:44:07.820 And I really don't want the term to be diluted so much.

00:44:10.260 Now, there's other issues, even if they're not pro-life.

00:44:13.020 There are, you know, I mean, people living in poverty.

00:44:16.600 I mean, people in America living in poverty, worrying about their paycheck to paycheck,

00:44:20.440 drowning in debt, can't have access to good health care.

00:44:23.240 That's not a pro-life issue, but it's an important issue.

00:44:26.000 Christians should alleviate the suffering of their fellow man.

00:44:28.820 Let's just get our terms right.

00:44:30.340 Yeah.

00:44:31.200 And Protestantism, evangelicalism, there are a lot of Christians who call themselves pro-all-life

00:44:37.540 Christians.

00:44:38.040 So they would say they're more pro-life than you and me, because they are at least more

00:44:42.900 than me, because I vote Republican, I'm a conservative, and I do believe in enforcing our border laws.

00:44:48.320 But they would call themselves pro-all-life because they want more welfare.

00:44:51.720 They're, you know, want an open border policy.

00:44:55.480 They're against the death penalty.

00:44:57.360 But the funny thing is, they're for all of those things, but they're very, very weak when

00:45:01.120 it comes to the legal defense of life.

00:45:02.680 I would ask them, do you think it should be illegal to kill human beings before they are

00:45:07.980 born?

00:45:08.600 Yeah.

00:45:09.420 Give me a yes or no.

00:45:10.720 Should it be illegal?

00:45:11.880 I'll even hedge it more for you.

00:45:13.300 Do you think elective abortion, killing human beings before they're born just because you

00:45:18.260 don't want to be pregnant, or even setting aside the health issues, don't give me the

00:45:21.440 whatabouts, should elective abortion be illegal?

00:45:25.780 And if they say no, don't give me this crap that you're more pro-life than me.

00:45:29.840 Yeah.

00:45:30.420 Sorry.

00:45:30.700 And they, you know, they always avoid answering the yes or no, the yes or no, the yes or no

00:45:37.220 question, because they would say it's, many of them would say it's wrong, but they think

00:45:42.040 wrongly that it's a different question of whether it should be illegal.

00:45:46.840 They would say it's nuanced, or like, there are some other things that we can do, and

00:45:51.440 I always want to ask, like, we can get to multiple sides of that answer, but I always

00:45:55.240 want to ask, okay, you think that there needs to be more done for those women and children?

00:45:59.240 What are you doing?

00:46:00.100 Yeah.

00:46:00.420 What are you doing?

00:46:01.180 And it's totally hypocritical.

00:46:03.440 They'll say, well, we shouldn't outlaw abortion.

00:46:06.280 We should just reduce the need for abortion.

00:46:08.520 We should reduce the underlying causes of abortion and just have it be legal, but we're going to

00:46:15.220 fight, we're only fighting the underlying causes, we're not going to make it illegal.

00:46:18.220 But when it comes to gun violence, they don't say, well, you know, we're just going to reduce

00:46:22.700 the underlying causes of gun violence.

00:46:24.660 No, they want to ban any gun that looks scary to them.

00:46:27.140 Yeah.

00:46:27.500 They'll call it an assault weapon without any definition of what that is, exactly.

00:46:31.800 So for their pet political causes, they want the law to step in and the power of the law

00:46:37.340 to make you conform, whether it's gun control, whether it's transgender ideology, whether

00:46:42.960 it's all these other things.

00:46:43.980 But when it comes to other issues, oh, well, you know, so I think it shows the true colors.

00:46:48.460 And they won't apply that principle, the belief in just fighting the underlying causes to murder

00:46:53.160 of people outside the womb or rape of people outside of the womb.

00:46:56.560 They won't say, well, no, rape shouldn't be illegal.

00:46:58.740 Let's just make sure that men are satisfied in a different way.

00:47:01.800 And they act like we can't do both.

00:47:03.440 That's what makes it hypocritical to me is like, you claim, they'll say, oh, well, we're

00:47:09.160 more pro-life because we're doing something about the underlying causes.

00:47:12.380 And I'll say, and I'll ask them, are you volunteering at a pregnancy resource center?

00:47:15.840 No, when you say you're doing something, what you mean is you're voting for a democratic

00:47:21.420 economic policy for the Democratic Party that you think is better for the poor.

00:47:26.900 And that if I don't vote for your liberal democratic policies, I don't really care about the poor.

00:47:32.220 Maybe I care about the poor because I've seen the 25 percent of poor people that live in

00:47:38.740 California.

00:47:39.640 I left California five years ago for the great state of Texas.

00:47:43.380 And I love that if liberal policies were all that's necessary to eradicate poverty, how

00:47:48.860 come a state that has had a super majority of Democrats for decades has one of the highest

00:47:54.540 homelessness rates, highest poverty rates, like in the country, in their major cities?

00:47:59.240 That always makes me pretty suspicious.

00:48:03.320 Yeah.

00:48:03.880 And I remember when Thomas Sowell said, you don't judge policies by their stated intentions,

00:48:08.420 you judge the policy by the outcome.

00:48:10.460 Yeah.

00:48:10.700 And too many people judge the compassion of a policy by what a politician says the policy

00:48:15.120 is going to do, not what by the policy has done.

00:48:17.760 Yeah.

00:48:18.200 But I think that Christians can reasonably disagree.

00:48:22.080 And that's where we have to understand.

00:48:23.420 There's things we can reasonably disagree.

00:48:25.840 And when some Christians overstate their case and say, oh, you know, I don't want this

00:48:29.460 particular entitlement program, you know, that's a personal judgment that people are

00:48:34.340 going to make.

00:48:35.100 Some people might consider more certain kinds of entitlement programs to be helpful.

00:48:39.460 Others might support things like universal basic income.

00:48:41.620 Other people might support other programs.

00:48:43.120 Fine.

00:48:43.320 We can disagree about it.

00:48:44.840 Or take gun violence.

00:48:46.260 Like, there's a variety of things that we can do to reduce gun violence.

00:48:49.640 What's funny to me, I don't want to go on too much of a tangent, but I need to get this

00:48:52.820 out there, is liberals will say, you conservatives idolize the Second Amendment, and you care

00:48:58.460 more about guns than kids being killed.

00:49:01.140 You know, you care more about that.

00:49:02.700 To which I would say to them, would you be in favor of this law?

00:49:05.760 News organizations cannot broadcast stories about mass shootings.

00:49:09.860 If we did that, that would save lives.

00:49:11.860 There has been repeated empirical studies that have shown when mass shootings have greater

00:49:20.680 representation in media, it greatly increases the risk of a copycat killing.

00:49:24.980 That is indisputable.

00:49:27.440 Think about the epidemic we've had.

00:49:29.580 We have had guns for centuries in this country, but mass shootings are a relatively recent epidemic

00:49:35.260 since Columbine.

00:49:37.100 I remember Columbine.

00:49:37.900 I remember watching it in high school.

00:49:39.080 But that was when this started getting the round-the-clock news coverage, and people

00:49:43.100 felt like, oh, this is how I can live forever, that I'm going to go out in a blaze of glory,

00:49:47.480 and people will always remember me as the guy who did this.

00:49:50.660 So we could save lives by just saying, hey, you can't broadcast stories about this.

00:49:55.260 But what are liberals going to say?

00:49:56.620 But the First Amendment, the freedom of the press.

00:50:00.540 Right.

00:50:01.460 So now maybe you can understand why the much you care about the First Amendment, even though

00:50:06.500 it will cost lives, but that freedom is very, very important for the press to have that.

00:50:12.220 Because when government says the press can't say certain things, that leads to totalitarianism.

00:50:16.920 When you understand that, then you'll understand why I care about the Second Amendment.

00:50:20.840 And I know you don't agree with this since we disagree on the death penalty, but I tell

00:50:25.440 people that I support the death penalty for certain crimes, for murder after due process.

00:50:30.560 I support bans against abortion, and I support the Second Amendment, all for the same reason.

00:50:36.600 People try to say that that's hypocritical, but it's all because I believe in the defense

00:50:40.580 of innocent life.

00:50:41.620 It's all because I believe in justice for innocent life.

00:50:44.460 I care about innocent life so much that I believe that intentionally taking innocent

00:50:48.560 life, the only just punishment for that is execution.

00:50:51.600 I just agree with Genesis 9-6 on that.

00:50:54.080 That's also why I believe people have the right to self-defense.

00:50:56.380 It's also why I believe it should be wrong to kill innocent life.

00:50:58.880 And whether we can disagree on the policies surrounding the death penalty and stuff, we

00:51:03.240 might be able to disagree on some of the minutiae there, but it's not hypocritical for someone

00:51:07.780 in principle to have those beliefs.

00:51:09.540 No, I wouldn't say it's hypocritical in principle, especially if you're focusing on what to do

00:51:15.900 for the defense of human life.

00:51:17.040 And traditionally, the Church has understood that the justification of the death penalty was

00:51:21.040 because this was the primary means to protect the common good of society, especially when

00:51:26.080 you don't have things like prisons.

00:51:27.320 And I think even Christians would understand there's a development in our understanding of

00:51:31.120 when the death penalty is appropriate.

00:51:32.960 So, I mean, even just a few centuries ago, the death penalty would have been used for crimes we

00:51:38.240 would never use it for today, like if you're hunting on the Lord's land or just grand theft.

00:51:43.160 Like even in the United States 200 years ago, the saying was,

00:51:48.400 people are not hanged for stealing horses.

00:51:53.000 They are hanged so horses will not be stolen.

00:51:56.480 Because if you don't have a robust prison system, the death penalty will be meted out a lot more.

00:52:02.520 Whereas I think even you and I would agree that, oh, well, we're just going to restrict it to the

00:52:05.940 most heinous of crimes.

00:52:07.940 And there's places where now it would be inappropriate to leverage it.

00:52:11.120 But I agree that ultimately what we're doing in all of it is we're doing this to protect

00:52:15.140 the dignity of human beings.

00:52:17.660 That's exactly right.

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00:53:36.080 There has been a lot of studies showing that there is an increased interest, at least in

00:53:41.940 Catholicism.

00:53:43.200 But then I saw a study too that said like people, young people aren't going into vocations

00:53:48.220 as much as they used to.

00:53:49.840 So what is your thought surrounding that?

00:53:52.000 And maybe just in general, since it's Protestant and Catholic, the talk about revival.

00:53:56.800 Of course, I'm excited as a Protestant, that there's more people coming to our churches

00:54:01.000 and stuff.

00:54:01.480 I'm sure you as a Catholic are excited about more interest in Catholicism.

00:54:04.780 Being Christian is cool.

00:54:05.940 Being Richard Dawkins and Neil deGrasse Tyson is not.

00:54:08.380 Yeah.

00:54:08.740 And Richard Dawkins might be realizing that.

00:54:10.820 So what is your thought on all of that, that I just said?

00:54:13.760 It's weird living...

00:54:15.400 It's weird having been a...

00:54:18.040 Being an older millennial myself, having lived through and now I can see like a cultural

00:54:24.200 change that I was there at the beginning and the end of it.

00:54:27.060 I remember when I converted to Catholicism, I was 17 years old.

00:54:30.560 That was in the early 2000s.

00:54:32.720 And that was back when new atheism was just right at its heyday.

00:54:35.820 After 9-11, there was this cultural vibe that religion isn't just false, it's irrational

00:54:41.900 and it causes people to do crazy things like fly planes into buildings.

00:54:45.160 So new atheism got a big rise out of that for some years.

00:54:47.720 That's why my first book I ever wrote was Answering Atheism.

00:54:50.880 That was in 2013 when it was still pretty strong.

00:54:55.100 But I think people got really...

00:54:57.040 And there was this promise like, oh, once we get rid of religion, we'll have a society

00:55:00.960 of perfect rationality.

00:55:03.140 And instead, what did we get?

00:55:04.760 We got six foot four inch guys yelling at GameStop employees saying, it's ma'am.

00:55:09.840 Yeah.

00:55:10.580 And we got, you know, guys trouncing women in women's sports and being told you have

00:55:15.680 to accept this.

00:55:16.440 Right.

00:55:17.280 We got all kinds of things being degenerate, the proliferation of, like a lot of people

00:55:22.820 who are into online atheism, we're going to make the world a better place.

00:55:25.900 I think what ended up happening is most of them just fell down the rabbit hole of, can

00:55:28.940 I say the P word about adult entertainment?

00:55:30.900 Or do I have to call it corn?

00:55:32.160 No, you can say porn.

00:55:33.180 I know some channels are like, I can't get dinged.

00:55:35.340 Pornography.

00:55:36.120 I mean, like I remember when I was in middle school, that would have been the late 90s.

00:55:41.640 The first time I saw pornography, a kid pulled out a Xeroxed photograph from his backpack.

00:55:46.980 Like it sounds quaint almost.

00:55:48.660 Yeah.

00:55:49.100 Compared to what happens to kids now with Pornhub, with OnlyFans, skyrocketed.

00:55:53.680 Right.

00:55:53.900 So you had people who have fallen into this, what's supposed to be the atheist rational

00:55:57.040 enlightenment, it's just a pit of degeneracy, nihilism, and hopelessness.

00:56:01.380 And people want out of it.

00:56:02.560 And they see Christianity has it, and especially men.

00:56:06.540 And I think also, so you have this degeneracy.

00:56:10.120 I think also you've seen in the past like 10 years, men have been stepped on by society,

00:56:15.280 being told you have toxic masculinity.

00:56:17.580 You know, the Gillette razor commercial, like, oh, boys are treated like defective girls in

00:56:22.660 the classroom.

00:56:24.500 Over and over being told, you know, it's bad that you like being a man.

00:56:28.180 You like being white.

00:56:28.960 You like your heritage.

00:56:29.760 You like doing masculine things.

00:56:30.920 And finally, you just snap.

00:56:33.120 And you know what?

00:56:33.700 You don't want to apologize anymore.

00:56:35.180 And you go to the way other extreme.

00:56:36.940 And you want tradition.

00:56:38.920 You want in something that values your traditional heritage identity.

00:56:42.700 And you see that in Christianity.

00:56:45.640 And so I think we're seeing, and just people in general who see that in cultural hopelessness.

00:56:49.560 So we're seeing a big increase in Catholic baptisms, Eastern Orthodoxy, people, big vibe shift for

00:56:55.680 that online, people going to that.

00:56:57.060 I personally, though, I'm not trying to be triumphalist about that because we're still

00:57:00.060 bleeding a lot of people.

00:57:01.300 I still meet tons of people who say I used to be Catholic, which always makes me sad.

00:57:04.900 And so I think I don't like when Catholic apologists get really triumphalist about that stuff.

00:57:09.320 Yeah, I've actually, I got like a lot of pushback because I wasn't even trying to make like an

00:57:14.120 anti-Catholic argument.

00:57:15.240 But I do see a lot of people saying, oh, like, because they'll say it sometimes.

00:57:20.360 Some people will say it like as an anti-Protestant thing, like, see, like, this is why we're

00:57:24.700 winning because all of this.

00:57:25.620 But I'm like, okay.

00:57:26.840 But also, both Protestants and Catholics, by the way, gaining people, losing a lot of people.

00:57:32.380 We just need to be realistic about that.

00:57:34.540 And I don't like some people, when I point that out to people, I'll say, yeah, you're

00:57:37.700 right.

00:57:37.860 We're seeing a big growth.

00:57:39.380 That's really, praise be to God.

00:57:40.900 And I'll say, but we're forgetting we're losing lots of people.

00:57:45.580 And for Catholics, I mean, 24% of them maybe become Protestant, like 50% of them are just

00:57:50.960 non-religious.

00:57:52.320 We got to do something about that.

00:57:53.640 And I've had some people tell me, oh, well, you know, it's quality quantity.

00:57:56.120 Like those people leaving the church, they were lukewarm, lackluster.

00:57:59.660 We're kind of better off without them.

00:58:01.480 And we're just, we're growing percentage-wise and the most on-fire people.

00:58:06.000 I don't see the church as a social club.

00:58:08.260 Pope Francis used the image of a field hospital, like in war.

00:58:11.620 He set up the tents and you bring in the people off the battlefield.

00:58:13.860 That's what I think the church should be.

00:58:16.360 So to hear that an injured, dying person walked out of the hospital and like, oh, good.

00:58:20.040 Now we've got the really smart doctors here only.

00:58:22.740 So we're a lot better off.

00:58:24.200 That person's dying.

00:58:25.600 We should be really like worried about that and grieve that.

00:58:29.000 So, but I'm seeing the shift.

00:58:30.800 It's a good analogy.

00:58:31.100 Yeah, we're seeing the shift and we're seeing, especially, I think, young men being attracted

00:58:34.960 to this traditionalism that values their masculinity, values their heritage.

00:58:39.840 I don't know if you want to get into this too early or not.

00:58:42.120 It's kind of weird though.

00:58:43.760 Traditionally, religion was more popular among women than men.

00:58:47.220 But in the past few years, it's kind of flipped.

00:58:48.900 Yeah.

00:58:49.460 And that's...

00:58:50.740 Marriage too.

00:58:51.880 Yes.

00:58:52.160 And I think that's not a coincidence.

00:58:53.460 Well, there was a study, I forget if it was Pew, it was circulating online a lot, saying

00:58:58.800 that they asked high school seniors in 1993, are you likely to get married?

00:59:03.440 And I think women is like 82% or something like that.

00:59:06.760 Yep.

00:59:07.300 And men were like 74 or 76.

00:59:09.880 2023, so 30 years later, asking seniors today who'd be Gen Z, or are they Gen Alpha?

00:59:16.760 No, I think they're still Gen Z, younger Gen Z.

00:59:19.320 Are you likely to get married?

00:59:20.540 Men maybe drop by like 2%.

00:59:22.080 Women drop by like 20%.

00:59:23.780 Yep.

00:59:24.200 You're right.

00:59:24.680 We just talked about this, and you're exactly right on the numbers.

00:59:27.980 Yeah.

00:59:28.280 So it's just like, so you see women don't want to get married, and especially more traditional

00:59:35.480 conservative Protestantism and conservative Catholicism, men are showing more interest

00:59:42.020 in that than women.

00:59:43.700 Men are kind of becoming more conservative.

00:59:45.120 Women are becoming more liberal.

00:59:47.140 And I mean, there's a whole bunch of explanations why for that.

00:59:49.880 I think what we are seeing is the fruit of third wave feminism from the late 80s, early

00:59:56.460 90s.

00:59:57.680 So if you think about it, you know, first wave, like right to vote, stuff like that.

01:00:00.820 Second wave, right to work, like sexual harassment is a bad thing.

01:00:04.760 You know, women can actually own credit cards, not that big a deal.

01:00:08.000 Third wave is like raunch feminism.

01:00:10.140 Like, okay, if men are going to be out, if men can sleep with anybody and it's cool,

01:00:13.800 like women should be able to do the same thing.

01:00:15.400 No, don't drag women down to our level, lift men up to women's levels.

01:00:19.860 So the third wave feminism, the girl boss stuff, like you can have it all, get your career,

01:00:25.120 you don't need a man, you know, and this kind of man-hating stuff from feminists in the 90s,

01:00:29.580 and women imbibe this.

01:00:31.940 And then those women, what do those women do?

01:00:35.260 Well, they go and become teachers, professors.

01:00:37.380 They become, now they're the ones who are indoctrinating the seniors in 2023, right?

01:00:43.220 And part of it, I think, is now they're in their, what, late 30s, early 40s,

01:00:47.920 and they feel like that desire maybe to have children,

01:00:51.340 and statistically it's going to be real, real tough, real tough to find someone.

01:00:56.800 And if you do find them, be able to have children.

01:01:00.700 And I think, you know, misery loves company.

01:01:02.860 So I think that we are, I think we are seeing, it's always like when you say,

01:01:07.080 why are women turning away from religion, turning away from marriage?

01:01:10.080 There's two extremes.

01:01:11.620 There's just only blaming feminism or women, or just, it's women, they're the problem.

01:01:18.900 Women need men to rein them in, like women are bad, they're defective.

01:01:21.920 No, we're all defective because of sin.

01:01:23.800 There's toxic masculinity, there's toxic femininity.

01:01:26.780 You know, there's women, men who use their gifts of masculinity to bully and beat up people.

01:01:31.760 Women who use their gifts of femininity to seduce and destroy people.

01:01:36.420 You know, so it's both.

01:01:37.660 We're all defective.

01:01:39.860 But focusing just on that or just blaming that on either extreme.

01:01:43.900 I also disagree with people who would say it's only, oh, well, it's men being abusive and misogynistic and vile,

01:01:49.860 and that's driven women away.

01:01:51.500 That's not the whole answer.

01:01:53.500 But I'm not going to lie if that's not a part of it.

01:01:55.140 If you have young guys, and if you're a high school senior now, and the guys you see all like to act like Andrew Tate,

01:02:01.440 it doesn't make marriage that attractive.

01:02:03.420 You know, if they act like that and treat women in that way, it's not going to be that attractive to you as a woman, frankly.

01:02:08.320 Yeah.

01:02:08.880 So it's a part of it, but not the whole thing.

01:02:10.180 Which is why, for all of us, the perfect model is Christ, who is meekness, which is power under control,

01:02:16.760 and why Christianity is the answer for women who are seeking worth and who are seeking equality and value,

01:02:22.960 and who are seeking the honor and the dignity that can only be brought by their creator,

01:02:28.540 and men who are seeking the purpose and strength that they think they're finding in a counterfeit,

01:02:33.280 like Andrew Tate, but really that just leads to a dead end.

01:02:35.920 I think the biggest thing, like my advice for Gen Z women and Gen Z men now,

01:02:40.340 is the internet is not your friends and it's not your therapy chamber.

01:02:44.560 I would say like for women, like stop using TikTok as a diary.

01:02:49.660 Stop it.

01:02:50.720 Like stop trying to get validation from strangers who like your posts,

01:02:55.300 because that's just a temptation to be dramatic, to be immodest, to be pornographic, frankly.

01:02:59.800 To seek that attention, you know, it's not authentic femininity.

01:03:06.780 Get off the line, and same with men too, who easily fall down the rabbit hole of not being very masculine.

01:03:12.480 Like my advice, especially for like young men, would be go do an activity that's a productive use of your hands

01:03:20.300 with other men that does not have screens.

01:03:23.740 Yeah.

01:03:24.500 That could be a lot of things.

01:03:25.660 For me, it's jujitsu and like boxing.

01:03:28.400 And that's fun.

01:03:29.060 Like honestly, I know guys that are black belts in jujitsu,

01:03:32.000 and they do not walk around like puffing their chests out or being,

01:03:36.600 because they know they're strong.

01:03:38.400 And once you know you're strong, you don't have to do that stuff.

01:03:40.820 So true.

01:03:41.320 But it doesn't have to be that.

01:03:42.700 Like I said, productive, other men, and no screens.

01:03:46.360 So video games don't count.

01:03:47.640 But it could be mechanics.

01:03:49.260 It could be grilling.

01:03:50.260 It could be jogging.

01:03:51.640 It could be artwork.

01:03:52.980 Golfing, fishing, yeah.

01:03:54.360 Learned, like what we did in the 90s, get a guitar and start a band.

01:03:57.900 Yeah.

01:03:58.460 Like real music that's not AI on the billboard charts.

01:04:01.000 Right.

01:04:01.280 But there's a whole list of things that it doesn't have to, you know, maybe martial arts isn't your thing,

01:04:05.020 but there's a whole bunch of things.

01:04:06.760 But it's with other men, productive with your hands or feet if you like jogging and running.

01:04:11.940 And there's no screens.

01:04:13.520 Yeah.

01:04:13.860 And doing that, it builds you up.

01:04:17.280 And that's why, and I think the church has to really step forward too and be accommodating to men.

01:04:22.420 Like I know in Catholic parishes, I don't know what's like this in the Protestant world,

01:04:25.740 the men's groups at a Catholic parish usually meet on Saturday at 6.30 in the morning.

01:04:33.140 And I think the reason for that is who goes to them?

01:04:35.480 Well, it's dads with kids, and that's the least disruptive time to have them outside of the house.

01:04:40.120 Yeah.

01:04:40.880 But for 20-year-old guys, like you got to have that at Thursday night at 7 o'clock.

01:04:45.500 Yeah.

01:04:46.100 To just for them and also to meet their needs where they're at and to understand like they were so,

01:04:52.360 like to understand their legitimate grievances for young men today.

01:04:55.800 They've been told like hate their identity for over a decade.

01:04:58.940 They've been put forth in an economy where it's very difficult for them to find full-time work to provide for a family,

01:05:06.260 to find housing, you know, that is affordable,

01:05:08.380 to recognize their difficulties, but to encourage them.

01:05:11.700 It's okay to recognize this stuff, but don't make victimhood your identity.

01:05:15.820 Same for women.

01:05:16.640 Yeah.

01:05:17.100 So good.

01:05:18.080 Trent, thank you so much for all of your insight today.

01:05:21.060 We agree on so much, and I could talk to you forever.

01:05:24.700 Tell people again where they can find you.

01:05:26.740 If you want to check out my channel, it's just Council of Trent, C-O-U-N-S-E-L.

01:05:30.800 I'll leave you to search Trent Warren.

01:05:31.680 One of the best and most clever titles of a podcast ever.

01:05:34.800 Oh, yes.

01:05:36.200 We got to find a Catholic girl named Florence.

01:05:38.580 We'll do Council of Florence for her show.

01:05:40.320 There you go.

01:05:40.900 But yeah, so Council of Trent, or Trent Horn on YouTube.

01:05:44.420 My work's also available at catholic.com.

01:05:47.400 So we're doing that.

01:05:49.520 And also we're going to be doing a special conference.

01:05:52.380 So if you're Catholic and you want to come meet me and a bunch of other people,

01:05:55.320 that'll be April 11th in Dallas.

01:05:57.740 So that'll be Conference of Trent instead of Council of Trent.

01:06:01.280 Conference of Trent.

01:06:02.100 People can go and check all that great stuff out.

01:06:04.700 Awesome.

01:06:05.060 Well, thank you so much.

01:06:06.140 All right.

01:06:32.100 Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door.

01:06:45.380 Expertly cleaned and folded.

01:06:46.940 So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting

01:06:50.100 to finally pursue a whole new version of you.

01:06:53.020 Like tea time you.

01:06:55.020 Mmm.

01:06:55.840 Or this tea time you.

01:06:58.400 Or even this tea time you.

01:07:00.940 So did you hear about Dave?

01:07:01.920 Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you.

01:07:05.080 Mmm.

01:07:06.080 So update on Dave.

01:07:08.020 It's up to you.

01:07:09.100 We'll take the laundry.

01:07:10.540 Rinse.

01:07:11.140 It's time to be great.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 24, 2025

Ep 1271 ｜ A Catholic & Protestant on the Death Penalty, Immigration & Women’s Roles ｜ Trent Horn

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