Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1275 ｜ Cult Survivor： Child 'Maiden' Escapes & Is Set Free by Jesus ｜ Lindsay Tornambe

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00:00:57.980 Lindsay Tornambe was raised in an abusive cult.

00:01:03.580 It wasn't until she was 23 that her eyes were opened and she left that cult.

00:01:09.100 But then, 13 years after she left, after 13 dark and very tumultuous years,

00:01:16.060 she finally heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and he saved her.

00:01:20.780 Her testimony is heart-wrenching, but it is also such a beautiful and powerful reminder

00:01:27.180 that God turns beauty out of ashes.

00:01:30.400 You will be so encouraged by Lindsay's story.

00:01:33.040 Our episode today is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

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00:01:50.820 Lindsay, thanks so much for matching me on my podcast today.

00:01:54.800 You're welcome.

00:01:55.200 We didn't plan it, but here we go.

00:01:57.200 Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

00:01:59.140 Yes, I am Lindsay.

00:02:01.600 I'm a single mom.

00:02:03.140 I work from home, which has been such a blessing being a single mom.

00:02:07.640 I have such a testimony of faith and survival that I'm now sharing with the world,

00:02:14.820 which I'm really thankful for.

00:02:16.420 Yeah.

00:02:16.800 Yeah.

00:02:17.920 You left a cult.

00:02:19.680 Yes.

00:02:20.220 And a lot of people have no idea what that really entails.

00:02:26.860 Before we get into that part of your testimony, though, I want to know how you were brought

00:02:32.220 up.

00:02:32.640 Were you brought up in a cult?

00:02:34.700 I was brought up.

00:02:36.660 My parents were involved in something called The Way International, which was started by

00:02:41.340 a man, Dr. Victor Paul Rarewill, I believe in the 1950s in New Knoxville, Ohio.

00:02:47.760 And there were some major differences that they believed.

00:02:51.600 They didn't believe in the Trinity.

00:02:52.640 So God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were all three separate beings, which is really

00:02:58.200 important to remember as my story continues.

00:03:02.840 And so we believed also in speaking in tongues, interpretation and prophecy.

00:03:09.240 We had church in our home.

00:03:10.560 So I grew up having a genuine love for the Lord, reading the King James Bible, praying

00:03:17.760 at such an early age, my mom would tell me stories of even in preschool, kids were afraid

00:03:22.820 to walk into school, and I would grab their hand and ask to pray with them and lead them

00:03:27.620 in.

00:03:29.220 And so, yeah, I would say grew up pretty normal from what I thought, you know, still seeing

00:03:35.840 family members and celebrating Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays.

00:03:40.360 But yeah, learning about Jesus and God at home, not going to a traditional church.

00:03:46.800 Interesting.

00:03:47.520 So did you believe that Jesus was God?

00:03:52.000 No.

00:03:52.620 You didn't?

00:03:53.340 Mm-mm.

00:03:53.640 Okay.

00:03:54.180 Because this is kind of reminding me a little bit of Jehovah's Witness, but of course, Jehovah's 1.00

00:03:58.240 Witness, they don't celebrate things like Christmas.

00:04:00.960 I'm not sure if Jehovah's Witness speak in tongues.

00:04:02.900 So it seems like a convergence of a lot of different Christian beliefs, but also polytheistic

00:04:13.380 beliefs, too.

00:04:15.760 Yes.

00:04:16.400 Yeah.

00:04:16.880 I, yeah, just thought that he was a man, you know, God was his father, but he himself was

00:04:23.600 not God.

00:04:24.460 Okay.

00:04:24.960 But did you believe that he died on the cross for your sons?

00:04:27.940 Okay.

00:04:28.180 Interesting.

00:04:28.420 I believe that he died on the cross and that, you know, Romans 10, 9, and 10, once I can

00:04:32.880 believe that he was my Lord and Savior, confessed it with my mouth, that I was saved and would

00:04:37.840 be going to heaven.

00:04:39.020 Mm-hmm.

00:04:39.480 And tell me about the rest of your upbringing.

00:04:43.040 It was pretty normal.

00:04:44.800 I'm the oldest of five siblings.

00:04:46.900 We had, or we started getting homeschooled when I was in the fourth grade.

00:04:52.960 My parents met this man, Victor Bernard, when I was nine years old.

00:04:57.520 He was also a member of the Way International.

00:05:00.760 The founder had died in 1985 and things kind of broke up, but we still had, you know, church

00:05:07.500 in our home.

00:05:08.000 And he came to visit, it was November of 1996, and he carried this, you know, when you meet

00:05:15.140 someone and they, like, carry this authority and you can just tell that they are someone

00:05:20.220 who wants to be respected.

00:05:22.480 And he definitely had that.

00:05:25.340 And I was nine, so I didn't really see any red flags or anything.

00:05:31.100 My sisters and I put on a dance, you know, for everyone in the living room.

00:05:35.940 And, but I do remember after he left, my parents made it very clear that we were going back to

00:05:42.640 scripture, that they had gotten involved in something called Amway.

00:05:46.000 And so, you know, our house was filled with pictures of cars they wanted and the dream homes.

00:05:51.700 You had gotten involved in Amway before, before Victor.

00:05:56.520 Right.

00:05:57.120 Did Victor have anything to do with Amway?

00:05:59.080 No.

00:05:59.560 No.

00:05:59.860 Nothing.

00:06:00.220 This was different.

00:06:01.100 Okay.

00:06:01.380 Who was Victor?

00:06:03.160 He told us that God had audibly spoken to him and had told him to go shepherd his flock

00:06:11.400 and define people who had once belonged to The Way International and bring them to his ministry.

00:06:17.920 Okay.

00:06:18.360 He said that God had ordained him and that he was an apostle and called of God to now be our shepherd.

00:06:25.360 Had he been a part of The Way International previously?

00:06:29.000 Was he in leadership?

00:06:30.880 He was not in leadership.

00:06:32.580 He was a part of The Way International.

00:06:34.540 He did at one point get assigned to Dr. Werewolf's wife to kind of, you know, walk with her to

00:06:41.460 meetings.

00:06:42.040 And it was after, I believe it was after Dr. Werewolf had passed away that he was assigned

00:06:47.200 to her.

00:06:47.920 Okay.

00:06:48.240 So that's the guy who started it.

00:06:49.880 This Victor guy was assigned to his wife after her husband died, who started it to try to,

00:06:55.800 I don't know, kind of be her guardian, be her helper and things like that.

00:06:59.080 So he felt tasked by God as an apostle to go shepherd the flock of The Way International.

00:07:06.500 And he came to your parents' house to say, you know, this is not over.

00:07:11.500 You might have felt like this was breaking up because the doctor had died, but we're getting

00:07:18.060 back at it.

00:07:18.960 And y'all are going to, you know, come back into the fold.

00:07:21.920 And your parents, after his visitation, they had a renewed vigor that, okay, we have to get

00:07:28.480 serious about this again, right?

00:07:30.460 Yes.

00:07:31.100 Yeah.

00:07:31.740 Yeah.

00:07:32.000 Things started changing.

00:07:33.540 My mom, my dream at that time when I was nine years old was to be an Olympian and I was

00:07:40.780 in gymnastics.

00:07:42.060 And my mom pulled me aside and told me that when Jesus Christ comes back, he's not going

00:07:49.340 to care how many gold medals I won and that none of that mattered in this life, which in

00:07:56.400 a sense is true.

00:07:57.260 So, you know, like I, now I want my life to completely glorify the Lord.

00:08:02.640 It was in light of what Victor just kind of shared with them, the urgency of Jesus Christ

00:08:08.320 coming back.

00:08:09.360 And her point to me was that none of this stuff mattered.

00:08:14.360 And so we're just going to live our lives for Christ.

00:08:17.580 How else did your life change?

00:08:19.340 Um, we started really only hanging out with people who had been involved in the way ministry.

00:08:26.860 So my parents reconnected with some friends, former friends who had been involved in the

00:08:33.060 way, who, um, also knew Victor Bernard.

00:08:36.040 And so we started having fellowship in the home.

00:08:39.640 That's what we called it.

00:08:40.360 Church in the home. 0.98

00:08:41.420 Together, um, started visiting their house a lot more.

00:08:45.760 Um, they started making plans for us to visit Minnesota, which is where Victor was from and

00:08:52.640 where his cult was at the time.

00:08:54.720 Um, and what was the significance of Minnesota?

00:08:59.100 I know you said that he lived there, but why were people visiting there?

00:09:02.320 To do what?

00:09:02.900 Um, basically to hear him preach, um, they had a compound there, uh, it was called the

00:09:10.080 shepherd's camp where they had a bunch of staff housing, a big chapel, the dining hall,

00:09:15.660 places for visitors to stay.

00:09:17.680 And so my family, my parents really wanted to be around Victor to learn more about God's

00:09:24.280 word.

00:09:25.100 Um, I think they definitely saw him as a shepherd, as somebody who was ordained of God.

00:09:30.360 And so they really wanted, I think they were seeking someone to follow.

00:09:35.900 And do you remember the first time you went to Minnesota to visit him?

00:09:39.260 Mm-hmm.

00:09:39.680 How old were you?

00:09:40.600 I was 10.

00:09:42.280 My parents, we drove out there.

00:09:44.340 They brought me and my sister right after me and another friend from the fellowship.

00:09:50.140 And, um, it's this tiny little town.

00:09:54.140 I remember my dad joking that if you blinked, you would miss it.

00:09:57.760 Finlis in Minnesota.

00:09:58.760 Um, the camp, it was down this long dirt road and you turned in pine trees everywhere, very,

00:10:07.040 very secluded, but also it was beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

00:10:11.120 Um, there were so many families that lived there and lots of kids.

00:10:15.300 I had a blast pretty much the whole time I was there because I was just playing with

00:10:21.660 kids the whole time.

00:10:22.520 And there were so many animals.

00:10:24.040 Um, there were a few things that scared me though.

00:10:27.880 Um, we would have meals that would last for a really long time and people who disagreed

00:10:33.200 with Victor.

00:10:33.660 I saw him spit in people's faces and throw chairs, um, at people.

00:10:38.980 He just definitely gave me the impression that I never wanted to make him mad.

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00:11:51.620 After you went back home, what was life like?

00:11:55.240 Um, kind of went back to normal.

00:11:57.380 Um, we were still being homeschooled.

00:11:59.380 We did, this was pre-cell phones and iPads, so me and a couple of the kids would write

00:12:05.320 letters to each other back and forth.

00:12:07.760 Um, my parents did listen to a lot of the tapes that Victor had given them of teachings

00:12:13.540 he had previously recorded.

00:12:14.860 And he had given them a bunch of books he had written to read.

00:12:19.800 So September of 1998, Victor flew to Pennsylvania, which is where my family lived, and pretty

00:12:26.580 much gave them an ultimatum that we either needed to move to the camp and join his ministry

00:12:32.140 there, or we were no longer allowed to visit.

00:12:34.600 Um, so you had to move there full-time?

00:12:38.020 No, we hadn't at that point.

00:12:39.380 We had just visited a few times.

00:12:40.460 But you had to.

00:12:41.240 That's what he was trying to say.

00:12:42.460 Right.

00:12:43.040 Okay.

00:12:43.260 Yeah.

00:12:43.880 Gotcha.

00:12:44.660 Yes.

00:12:44.980 And, um, I wasn't in the meeting, but I know from just seeing my parents afterwards, it

00:12:51.620 was very somber and very serious.

00:12:54.460 And, um, it didn't take them long, though.

00:12:56.800 They decided to sell the house and pretty much get rid of everything besides what some

00:13:04.520 people maybe in Minnesota needed.

00:13:06.780 Um, and I don't even really remember my parents making it a big deal of us moving.

00:13:13.920 You know, like, I don't remember it being a big deal with my grandparents or aunts and

00:13:18.420 uncles.

00:13:18.720 And looking back, I almost feel like it was on purpose because if I had known that I would

00:13:25.480 really never see them again, I don't know that I would have wanted to go because we were

00:13:30.640 very close with my mom and dad's side of the family.

00:13:34.980 Um, and I found out later after I finally left in my 20s that my mother had actually written

00:13:43.700 a letter to her parents and siblings saying that if anyone tried to stop us, she would

00:13:49.160 cut all communication off.

00:13:50.680 So she definitely knew, I think, what she was getting herself into.

00:13:56.040 So y'all moved to there, you were like 11?

00:14:00.820 I was, um, I was still 10 or no, I was 11.

00:14:05.000 Yes.

00:14:05.600 Okay.

00:14:05.880 Um, so you moved there 1998 and what did it look like actually living there?

00:14:12.340 They moved our family into two separate units.

00:14:16.620 There was this place called the fourplex.

00:14:18.840 Um, it was four kind of mini apartments, you know, with like a mini fridge, a tuna burner

00:14:25.020 stove, had two bedrooms each.

00:14:27.200 So because we were a family of seven, they split us up.

00:14:29.560 Um, and there were 80 people living at the camp.

00:14:33.960 So you have four siblings?

00:14:34.560 Four siblings.

00:14:35.440 Okay.

00:14:35.780 Yes.

00:14:36.640 Um, there were 80 people living at the camp at that time.

00:14:39.140 So it was busy.

00:14:40.740 I mean, kids everywhere.

00:14:42.660 Um, for a while, Victor had, he kind of made the rules and everyone had to follow.

00:14:49.160 So if he wanted to have breakfast, lunch, and dinner all together, that's what happened.

00:14:53.240 If he only wanted to have dinner all together, that's what happened.

00:14:56.220 Um, but many long meals, lots of teachings and sharing, um, for me as an 11 year old,

00:15:04.320 you know, animal care, being homeschooled, skating on the lake, sledding.

00:15:10.520 Did your dad have to work?

00:15:13.260 I don't even remember if my dad, I know at that time, I don't think he did work.

00:15:18.600 Um, later on, he did work at a cabinet shop that was run from one of the locations by the

00:15:25.540 church.

00:15:25.820 So is the food and all of this stuff being paid for by like tithing or donations or how

00:15:31.520 does that work?

00:15:32.500 Yeah.

00:15:33.280 Great question.

00:15:34.700 Um, I honestly don't know that answer.

00:15:37.780 I've always wondered where the money came from.

00:15:40.420 Um, I know people did tithe, um, 10% was what they gave.

00:15:47.340 Um, but other than that, I'm, I'm actually not really sure where all the money came from

00:15:52.940 for everything.

00:15:53.780 So for the most part, this kind of felt like a normal childhood, at least at first, but

00:15:58.740 you said that you noticed that Victor was very angry, that he would shun people, he would

00:16:03.000 throw things, yell at people.

00:16:04.780 Um, you told a story about an elder shook your five-year-old sister so much that she ended

00:16:11.100 up like wetting herself out of fear.

00:16:13.740 What was your reaction when you saw that?

00:16:17.960 Oh, I was scared.

00:16:19.380 I remember comforting her.

00:16:21.600 Um, it's tough, you know, it's hard because your parents are there and they trust these

00:16:27.040 people, you know?

00:16:28.000 And as a kid, I was seeing all these things and getting scared, but my parents, you know,

00:16:34.960 I've, I felt like I trusted them at that time to do what was best for us.

00:16:38.620 And they were okay with letting this stuff happen.

00:16:42.540 And, you know, my parents, they did use corporal punishment on us growing up, not to that extent,

00:16:48.000 but it wasn't not normal to get, you know, hit with a rod or, um, you know, smacked around.

00:16:56.780 So, I think, yeah, it definitely made me scared, but I just thought this was life now.

00:17:04.980 Yeah.

00:17:05.660 And just to close the loop on this, you mentioned Amway earlier, that your family had been in

00:17:10.460 Amway.

00:17:11.060 Is that a significant part of your story?

00:17:14.020 No, not significant.

00:17:15.380 I think it just, it, for me, I guess it kind of showed that we, my parents were really into

00:17:22.180 the word when I was younger and then they kind of drifted away to more worldly things.

00:17:27.240 And then when Victor came, they kind of went back to the word.

00:17:31.640 Okay.

00:17:31.680 So, they quit Amway.

00:17:33.040 Right.

00:17:33.400 They did quit.

00:17:34.300 Okay.

00:17:34.560 And kind of pulled y'all out of everything that was seemingly worldly, materialistic,

00:17:40.200 earthly success.

00:17:41.260 Right.

00:17:41.700 Things like that.

00:17:42.820 And really went back to kind of like what they considered a fundamentalist peer view of the way.

00:17:49.440 Correct.

00:17:49.860 Y'all moved to this camp.

00:17:51.140 Did you see, as you were getting older, into your preteen and teen years, things that started

00:17:56.540 to disturb you?

00:17:59.000 Yeah.

00:17:59.560 When I was 12, at this point, my family or the church had acquired another property about

00:18:07.800 five miles from the camp.

00:18:09.440 And so, my family was sent to live there.

00:18:13.240 And that's that summer of 1999.

00:18:16.040 That's when the summer of love happened.

00:18:18.600 Victor was really honing in on all the women at the camp, really portraying himself as our

00:18:25.740 shepherd, using the Song of Solomon as a reference to kind of relate to him and the church.

00:18:32.380 So, you said we, like including little girls?

00:18:36.360 Yes.

00:18:37.840 Yes.

00:18:37.900 Yes.

00:18:41.140 September of 1998, before my family moved to the shepherd's camp, Victor had taken off

00:18:49.760 his wedding ring.

00:18:50.580 He was married and had four children.

00:18:52.880 He took off his wedding ring and said that just as Jesus Christ is married to the church

00:18:59.420 and the bride of Christ, he was now married to the church, which I think is important

00:19:05.480 to know because of especially how we viewed God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit being

00:19:11.240 all separate.

00:19:11.820 Jesus Christ is a man.

00:19:12.760 It was almost like him saying he is Christ in the flesh, you know, being married to the

00:19:17.920 church.

00:19:19.640 Right.

00:19:20.100 Okay.

00:19:20.660 So, tell me about the summer of love in 1999.

00:19:23.460 The summer of love happened in 1999.

00:19:27.480 Victor had an RV and he would travel.

00:19:31.620 There was about three other properties that the believers lived on at this point.

00:19:37.360 I think there was about 150 people involved in this cult.

00:19:40.820 And so, they were all spread across these three properties.

00:19:43.340 So, he would take his RV and travel to the three different properties where some young

00:19:48.180 women are, including me, and I was only 12 at the time.

00:19:54.080 He would do things we called grazing the sheep, where we would go out.

00:19:59.480 He would take his shepherd's staff and blankets and lay down in the grass with us and even the

00:20:05.560 married women and share stuff from the Bible or just things that he was thinking about in 0.76

00:20:11.140 the church.

00:20:11.660 And he didn't do this with the men or young men.

00:20:14.140 He was very strategic on targeting the women and the young girls.

00:20:19.780 He demanded a lot of respect at that time.

00:20:23.520 You know, roses being placed where he would go to meetings.

00:20:27.460 And again, always, I mean, I remember-

00:20:30.120 Roses being placed, like someone would have to go before him and put roses there before

00:20:34.900 he-

00:20:35.500 Yeah, like at a meeting, put a rose there.

00:20:37.760 It was something that Dr. Werewolf did or had done for him in the Way Ministry.

00:20:41.980 And so, he was kind of adapting that for him.

00:20:45.160 Did you ever think, as a 12-year-old, this whole grazing the grass thing is weird?

00:20:50.560 I-

00:20:51.160 So, no, not at that point.

00:20:53.980 I did not think it was weird.

00:20:55.260 Um, he at one point shared with me and my sister that before he came and found us in

00:21:02.560 1996, he was sitting in that exact same pasture, crying out to God and praying to find survivors

00:21:10.480 of the Way International.

00:21:11.440 And he told my sister and I that we were the joy of his tears and how we were the fruit

00:21:17.600 of what God had told him to do.

00:21:20.720 So, he, you know, as a young kid, and this is the person that God had put in our life,

00:21:27.700 I feared him, but I also felt I am special, you know?

00:21:31.880 Right, right.

00:21:32.820 And your mom clearly trusted him.

00:21:35.000 Right.

00:21:35.260 Was she going on these ventures out into the pasture?

00:21:38.040 Yes.

00:21:38.780 Yes, absolutely.

00:21:39.760 And you never got any indication from your parents at this time that this is kind of

00:21:44.960 creepy?

00:21:45.620 No, not at all.

00:21:47.240 Not at all.

00:21:47.560 So, you as a child, you trust your parents.

00:21:49.200 Right.

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00:22:55.620 Tell us more about what happened that summer.

00:22:59.280 That was the first summer that my parents agreed to have us, me and my sisters, sleep

00:23:06.400 in a camper with Victor.

00:23:07.940 How many sisters do you have? 0.98

00:23:09.760 Three sisters.

00:23:10.740 Okay.

00:23:11.340 And their ages at this point?

00:23:14.320 Gosh, I was 11, so it would be 8, 6, and 4.

00:23:21.820 Okay.

00:23:22.960 So, I think you had said that you were 12.

00:23:26.560 So, 11 or 12 at this in 1999, that this is happening.

00:23:32.400 Okay.

00:23:32.560 And Victor approached your parents and said, hey, I need them to sleep in the RV with me.

00:23:39.120 It was actually one of the older young ladies who was serving where we lived at Three Taverns. 0.85

00:23:47.440 I think she was maybe 19 at the time, and she had asked my parents if it was okay.

00:23:54.060 And they said yes, which, as a mother now, like, I just, I don't know.

00:24:01.580 There's so many red flags.

00:24:03.020 I still cannot understand why my parents said yes to that.

00:24:08.700 Yeah.

00:24:09.020 We didn't sleep in the bedroom with him.

00:24:10.520 We slept out in the kitchen area.

00:24:12.920 But that was the first time he ever wrote us a note, and it just said, I love you, and

00:24:17.700 he slid it under the door.

00:24:18.800 Or, but yeah, that just, I never really understood.

00:24:23.920 It seemed like he was wanting love from us, but I did, definitely did not have it back for

00:24:30.600 him at that point.

00:24:31.540 I respected him and feared him, but it wasn't that I was, like, actively seeking to be right.

00:24:39.120 Right.

00:24:39.600 Right.

00:24:40.180 Yeah.

00:24:41.520 And nothing else happened that first time.

00:24:44.900 No.

00:24:45.560 In the RV.

00:24:46.420 No.

00:24:46.600 But that was just the first time.

00:24:48.580 There were other times.

00:24:49.680 Right.

00:24:49.940 Yeah.

00:24:50.800 Yeah.

00:24:51.040 Later that summer, he had a bunch of girls my age who had, you know, I'd known them since

00:24:56.960 I was 10 when we first visited.

00:25:00.420 And they were all at the location where I lived.

00:25:04.060 He had set up a tent.

00:25:05.840 And that same girl who asked my parents if me and my sisters could sleep in the camper,

00:25:11.760 she asked all of us who wanted to sleep next to him.

00:25:13.980 And everyone raised their hand.

00:25:15.620 And I did not.

00:25:17.040 I could, was so scared.

00:25:20.880 I did not want to sleep next to him.

00:25:22.540 I couldn't believe why the rest were.

00:25:25.080 And she picked me to sleep next to him.

00:25:27.640 And she told me it was because I didn't raise my hand.

00:25:29.720 And I remember just laying there as stiff as a board, not wanting to move, afraid to breathe

00:25:36.800 because I was just so nervous.

00:25:39.460 And you know when you can feel that people are jealous of you and they're, that's what

00:25:43.560 I was feeling from the other girls.

00:25:45.600 Like they wanted to be me.

00:25:46.960 And I just didn't understand it, you know.

00:25:49.080 I, but nothing, again, he did not touch me that night.

00:25:54.220 Um, nothing happened until it was, I think, January of 2000.

00:25:59.360 So I, I think had just turned 12 at this point.

00:26:03.060 And his camper, again, was at three taverns where our family lived.

00:26:08.500 And somebody had asked me, I think it was maybe to go bring him the mail or, you know,

00:26:12.800 give him a message.

00:26:14.600 And I walked into his camper and he was standing in the back in the bathroom completely naked.

00:26:21.980 And again, I'm 12, you know, not developed, looking like a little kid and, um, walked,

00:26:31.080 he told me to come towards him.

00:26:33.000 And, um, I just stood there, you know, very unsure of what to do, very nervous.

00:26:38.920 And he grabbed my hand and had me put it on his penis. 1.00

00:26:44.220 Um, and I, I don't even know if I was breathing at that point, you know,

00:26:50.160 I just felt very alone and, um, he had me lay in the bed next to him.

00:26:55.680 And I, I remember him telling me that I could do more if I wanted, but I didn't.

00:26:59.340 And I didn't say anything.

00:27:00.680 And I think he got the hint that I was not going to do anything else.

00:27:05.260 Yeah.

00:27:05.660 And so he told me not to tell anyone that nobody would understand, um, that this was just between

00:27:13.540 him and me and God and, you know, that I was special and, and I didn't, I remember

00:27:19.260 You didn't tell your parents or sisters?

00:27:21.420 I didn't tell my parents, no.

00:27:22.520 And, you know, my mom never had these kinds of talks with us.

00:27:25.860 She never talked about inappropriate touching or inappropriate behavior.

00:27:30.360 Um, and from my, what I saw from my parents and from the rest of the adults, everyone loved

00:27:36.180 him and adored Victor.

00:27:38.620 Um, but I was just so closed off and nervous and I just like shoved it in the back of my brain.

00:27:45.860 Wow.

00:27:46.700 Was that the only time?

00:27:49.260 Um, no, um, that summer of 2000, Victor gave a teaching, um, to the church about how in

00:27:59.480 the Old Testament, the firstborn children were to be sacrificed to God.

00:28:03.600 And he read off a list of names.

00:28:07.360 Mine was on there.

00:28:08.340 Um, and basically said that we could give our lives to Christ and dedicate a life of service

00:28:14.240 to the church, um, and how much honor it would bring on our family.

00:28:19.440 Um, I, you know, I, I saw all my friends deciding to do this, all the girls that I had been growing

00:28:27.380 up with.

00:28:27.880 And I didn't, not at the time know that it was a lifetime commitment.

00:28:32.620 And, you know, I have it in my memoirs that I wrote while I was there in 2008, that it

00:28:37.720 became a, almost a running joke in the maintenance.

00:28:39.860 Oh, Lindsay didn't know what she was getting herself into.

00:28:42.440 So, um, and I told my parents, so I want to go, I want to go serve in the summer.

00:28:47.700 And in my mind, I thought I'll be back to being homeschooled in the fall.

00:28:52.180 You know, I'm only 13 and they were very serious.

00:28:56.540 And they're like, are you sure you want to go?

00:28:58.380 And my dad was crying and I was like, yes, absolutely.

00:29:02.020 It'll be fun.

00:29:02.900 And, and did you know what it entailed?

00:29:05.740 And so he just said, sacrifice your firstborn, here's your life of service.

00:29:11.340 Did y'all, did he say what the life of service would be?

00:29:14.760 Basically just serving at the camp and, um, you know, dedicating our life to just, um,

00:29:21.480 just helping out, you know, serving, whether it was getting ready for meetings.

00:29:25.820 He didn't really give a laid out plan of all that it looked like.

00:29:30.440 Boys and girls?

00:29:31.220 Nope.

00:29:31.580 Just girls. 0.97

00:29:32.180 Okay.

00:29:32.740 So even if there was a firstborn boy, he was not someone that was chosen for a lifetime

00:29:39.840 of service.

00:29:40.660 Correct.

00:29:41.180 Did anyone say, well, hang on, I have a firstborn son.

00:29:45.020 Why is it just, why is just my daughter?

00:29:47.680 Yeah.

00:29:48.040 Not that I know of.

00:29:49.340 Yeah.

00:29:49.960 Yeah.

00:29:50.160 Maybe secretly, but they didn't protest publicly because obviously Victor had already kind of

00:29:54.860 created that environment where you don't question him or you're going to be shunned.

00:30:00.640 Okay.

00:30:01.040 So you said a word maidens. 0.99

00:30:04.100 What's that?

00:30:05.560 Uh, that became what the 10 of us were called maidens.

00:30:09.020 Um, so my parents, yeah, July 23rd, 2000 dropped me off at the shepherd's camp.

00:30:15.680 And ironically, the 10 of us lived in that fourplex, which was what, you know, my family

00:30:21.440 lived in when we first moved to the camp.

00:30:23.000 Um, and things in the beginning were kind of okay.

00:30:27.820 Um, we were assigned two by two, you know, kitchen duty, gardening, cleaning.

00:30:34.600 Um, two people were assigned to help Victor, which was basically everything that a wife 0.99

00:30:41.140 would do, maybe even more stuff than a wife would do. 1.00

00:30:43.580 Waking him up in the morning, making his breakfast, picking out his clothes, helping him out of the

00:30:48.940 shower, organizing his day.

00:30:50.400 Is he old?

00:30:51.740 How old was he?

00:30:52.580 I think he was 39 at this point.

00:30:54.300 So he didn't actually need physical help getting out of the shower.

00:30:57.900 No.

00:30:58.340 Okay.

00:30:58.800 No.

00:30:59.760 But it would be like handing him his towel, putting lotion on his legs, things like that.

00:31:06.240 Very disturbing.

00:31:07.180 And what was your role?

00:31:08.440 I think I was, uh, gardening at that point.

00:31:12.060 Okay.

00:31:12.360 And so he didn't select you for the more intimate things.

00:31:15.960 No.

00:31:16.360 Interesting.

00:31:17.100 No.

00:31:17.620 Yeah.

00:31:18.360 Um, thank God.

00:31:19.400 Mm-hmm.

00:31:20.120 Seriously.

00:31:25.220 So much of the content that we consume online today makes us feel dumber, but not relatable

00:31:29.920 and not the online courses that you'll take with Hillsdale.

00:31:32.820 If you go to hillsdale.edu slash relatable, you can access all of these free courses, either

00:31:38.380 on the rise and fall of the Roman empire or the book of Genesis or the works of C.S. Lewis,

00:31:45.420 colonial America, you will become a better historian.

00:31:48.180 You'll become a better philosopher, theologian, apologist, all at Hillsdale, totally for free.

00:31:53.460 Go to hillsdale.edu slash relatable.

00:31:55.660 There was a feast that Victor would have us celebrate every, I think, early September from

00:32:09.180 the Old Testament, the Feast of Tabernacles, um, which kind of referenced, you know, bringing

00:32:14.280 in the harvest and thanking God for all that he had done for us that year.

00:32:17.840 Um, and so I was under the impression that I would serve there and live at the camp until

00:32:23.660 that, and then I would go home and be homeschooled.

00:32:27.160 I didn't bring any of my winter stuff with me.

00:32:30.180 Um, and I was talking to, we'll call her Jan, if anyone listened to my story on the turning,

00:32:39.880 um, she was referenced as Jan.

00:32:41.500 And we were gardening in front of the chapel and she was asking how things were going.

00:32:46.380 And I was like, oh, great.

00:32:48.520 It's been fun.

00:32:49.440 I'm really excited though, to get home, to see my family.

00:32:53.120 I really miss my siblings.

00:32:55.060 And she looked at me and she goes, Lindsay, you're not going home.

00:32:59.900 And I just kind of looked at her and I was like, what do you mean?

00:33:02.940 She said, no, this is a lifetime commitment.

00:33:05.900 You're not going home.

00:33:07.040 This is your home now.

00:33:07.940 And I said, well, what about homeschool and my winter clothes?

00:33:12.280 And she's like, well, your mom will send it over and we'll take care of schooling here, 0.96

00:33:15.740 which they never really did.

00:33:17.220 I really only had a sixth grade education.

00:33:20.420 Um, and it was shortly after that, that, um, I was raped by Victor for the first time.

00:33:29.080 Um, you were 13, 14, 13.

00:33:31.860 Yeah.

00:33:32.540 He, um, called me up to the lodge.

00:33:36.240 That's where he lived.

00:33:37.220 We called it the lodge one night and he was sitting, you know, just how we are.

00:33:43.080 There was a fire going in the fireplace and it was small talk at first.

00:33:47.740 And then he looked at me and said, have you ever masturbated before?

00:33:51.320 And I, honest to God, didn't even know what that word meant.

00:33:54.840 You know, again, my mother had never talked to me about these things.

00:33:58.320 Um, and I, you know, pretty sheltered being homeschooled and we didn't really have TV, uh,

00:34:05.280 besides movies.

00:34:06.980 Um, and I don't know why he thought I was lying and he kept asking me again and again.

00:34:12.840 And I kept saying, no, I didn't know even what he meant.

00:34:16.340 And he slapped me across the face and yelled at me to get out of the lodge.

00:34:20.540 And I had been sweating so much that it felt like the couch was leather.

00:34:25.800 It felt like ripping band-aids off of my legs when I got off of the couch.

00:34:29.820 And I ran down the dark road back to the fourplex, just sobbing and cried, you know,

00:34:39.480 went to my room and cried into my pillow.

00:34:41.220 And I kept thinking at that point, God, why is this happening?

00:34:45.040 Why did my parents leave me here?

00:34:48.380 Um, it was about 45 minutes later, one of the maidens came and said that Victor was on

00:34:53.460 the phone for me and he asked me to come back to the lodge.

00:34:56.840 And when I got back in there, his whole demeanor had changed.

00:35:02.560 He was very nice, didn't bring up anything that had happened.

00:35:06.780 He started off by telling me that, um, Jesus Christ had Mary Magdalene and the Apostle Paul

00:35:15.360 had Phoebe and probably other women as he traveled throughout Asia.

00:35:19.440 And he is a man of God because of his calling, um, and my calling dedicating to

00:35:26.820 my life to God, that it was spiritual and natural for him to have sex with me.

00:35:31.840 And that even though he would be having sex with me, I could remain a virgin spiritually.

00:35:37.920 And, um, again, I didn't say anything.

00:35:43.900 I feel like I was just a deer in headlights, unsure of what to do.

00:35:48.600 Um, he led me back to his bedroom and I remember he put a towel on the bed cause he told me that

00:35:55.120 sometimes the first time you have sex, the woman can bleed, which made me even more scared. 0.94

00:36:01.320 And, um, it was almost like a out of body experience in a way.

00:36:06.440 He had a, um, deck on the back of the bedroom with glass doors.

00:36:12.300 And it was like, I was looking and seeing what was happening to me.

00:36:16.120 And I was just laying there so scared.

00:36:19.780 And he got really mad at one point that I wasn't being passionate enough.

00:36:24.000 And I still just laid there.

00:36:26.580 I didn't child.

00:36:27.680 Yeah.

00:36:28.520 Um, didn't know what to do.

00:36:30.520 And then that was pretty much it.

00:36:32.420 I mean, he just sent me back to the fourplex after that.

00:36:35.400 And I remember just again, asking like, why God, why is this happening?

00:36:41.940 Why can't I go home?

00:36:43.300 I miss my siblings.

00:36:44.620 I miss my parents.

00:36:45.840 And, um, yeah, that was the first of many, many times of being raped by him.

00:36:52.780 Okay.

00:36:54.480 And how old were you when you left the cult?

00:36:57.740 23.

00:36:58.480 You were 23.

00:36:59.740 So 10 years of that, of being a maiden. 0.98

00:37:03.320 And so was there at any point, obviously you were so scared and so hurt the first time,

00:37:11.680 but was there at any point before you left that you were like, yes, I love him.

00:37:16.820 And, you know, I believe that this is right and good.

00:37:21.500 Um, what did that look like before you left?

00:37:24.880 I would say it wasn't until end of 2005, 2006.

00:37:29.580 It took me a long time to get there.

00:37:32.120 A lot of fear, a lot of manipulation.

00:37:35.760 Um, one thing that Victor would tell us is that the more we dedicated ourselves to him

00:37:42.380 in this life and to God, the better place in heaven we would have.

00:37:46.660 Um, and so I think the thought of not being in heaven with the maidens and with Victor

00:37:52.700 really scared me.

00:37:53.700 Um, and so, but it took five, six years for me to really get fully dedicated to him.

00:38:01.860 And finally, to the point where I was like, okay, I will die for him if necessary.

00:38:06.020 You know, I mean, he would tell us a story all the time of Silas, um, in jail.

00:38:11.780 And, you know, if that ever got to the point where he was in jail, would we stay in our faith

00:38:16.580 and, um, you know, stand up for him?

00:38:21.380 And, um, yeah, it was, it took a while, but I did finally get to that point.

00:38:26.380 Um, did you ever get pregnant?

00:38:29.060 No, no, I did try when I was 14.

00:38:32.580 Um, I tried, it was before he had a vasectomy.

00:38:37.800 Um, he had these, it almost looked like a tampon. 0.54

00:38:42.980 Um, and I don't even know what it is cause I've never researched it since, but it was

00:38:48.060 like a jelly that the woman would insert to herself to kill the sperm. 1.00

00:38:52.400 Um, so, okay, that's interesting.

00:38:55.560 He wasn't necessarily trying to breed as many babies as possible.

00:38:59.320 He just, it was just about his pleasure manipulating y'all.

00:39:04.320 Um, okay, let's fast forward a little bit to, okay, at some point you think that you're

00:39:08.720 in love with him, I guess when you're about 18, 19 years old, um, in these last few years

00:39:15.560 that you're in the cold before you leave at 23, like, what does that look like?

00:39:20.960 And then what did those final days and hours look like?

00:39:24.920 Um, we had sold the shepherd's camp at that point.

00:39:27.660 So the maidens were living at a different location.

00:39:30.640 We had started a pottery business together.

00:39:33.780 Um, we were just doing a lot of, a lot of things.

00:39:37.240 We really became a sisterhood at that point.

00:39:40.000 Um, um, let me see, hold on.

00:39:44.560 I'm trying to like, think of, um, it was kind of, it was a quiet time for the maidens.

00:39:52.040 You know, our life had been so public at the shepherd's camp.

00:39:54.580 And so moving to this other location kind of gave us time to grow.

00:39:59.980 Um, Victor would come over for dinners a lot.

00:40:02.820 Um, yeah, so it was, it was almost like a slowing down, really getting to, I guess, know one

00:40:11.840 another even more, not much jealousy, more of a working together.

00:40:16.280 Um, in 2008, one of the maidens, she was originally from Brazil.

00:40:23.420 Um, the U.S. wouldn't renew her visa.

00:40:26.800 And so she was extradited back to Brazil.

00:40:29.680 Um, Victor would always have a stay in twos.

00:40:32.760 And so he would send one of us down to live with her every six months and we would switch

00:40:37.520 out.

00:40:38.540 Um, it also kind of during this time, it came out that he had been sleeping with some of

00:40:45.200 the married women.

00:40:47.100 Um, one of the married women he had slept with went to the police and shared with them what

00:40:52.560 was going on, wrote a bunch of stuff about the maidens.

00:40:55.860 And in Minnesota, it's illegal as a pastor to be sleeping with the people you were pastoring.

00:41:02.420 And so he shared this all with us, but in a way that would make you feel bad for him,

00:41:08.240 you know, like David and Bathsheba and the temptation was too big.

00:41:11.180 And just as God forgave David, he would forgive Victor and we needed to find it in our hearts

00:41:16.540 to forgive Victor.

00:41:18.660 Um, but he kind of went on the run at that point.

00:41:22.560 Um, sometimes we didn't even know where he was.

00:41:26.980 Um, so, and at that point, again, I, I did wrestle with the fact that he had slept with

00:41:33.120 married women. 0.51

00:41:34.000 It's strange because I knew that was wrong.

00:41:37.060 I felt that that was wrong, but I didn't at that time even know that what he had done

00:41:42.160 to me was rape.

00:41:42.960 Like, I, I, I didn't see it that way.

00:41:45.620 Mm-hmm.

00:41:46.740 Um, and so Victor sent me down to Brazil, September of 2009 to March of 2010, which was my first

00:41:56.400 time traveling alone, really getting away from the camp.

00:42:00.200 And I remember I sat in one of those seats on the plane and they had the TV screens there,

00:42:05.620 which I hadn't ever seen that before.

00:42:08.940 And, um, I was like, oh, do I watch a movie?

00:42:12.140 Do I not?

00:42:12.860 Like, surely they're going to find out.

00:42:14.300 I thought everything was tracked, you know, the pilot's going to tell Victor, there's

00:42:18.600 going to be a bill somewhere, you know, I just thought everything I did, they would

00:42:22.740 know.

00:42:23.720 Um, but I did, I watched a movie, just one though.

00:42:27.640 And I was like.

00:42:28.300 What was it?

00:42:28.840 It was this British teenage rom-com called, um, Angus Thongs and Perfect Snogging.

00:42:36.440 I, yeah, like, didn't even know what I was picking, but I remember watching and thinking,

00:42:42.200 oh my gosh, I wish I had a life like this, you know?

00:42:44.460 And I'd remembered being 10, 11, having crushes on some of the boys there.

00:42:48.920 And it was just, I don't know.

00:42:51.360 I watched the movie and I was like, okay, that's enough.

00:42:53.380 No more.

00:42:54.200 Cause I'm already in enough trouble.

00:42:56.920 Yeah.

00:42:57.320 Um, but living in Brazil, it was my first time almost remembering that there was a world

00:43:03.180 out there.

00:43:04.000 You know, we had been so sheltered.

00:43:05.600 We didn't have TV.

00:43:06.380 We didn't have radios.

00:43:07.480 I didn't even see images of 9 and 11 until 2010.

00:43:10.980 Wow.

00:43:11.560 Yeah.

00:43:12.000 Just what Victor told us.

00:43:13.400 I didn't even think of that.

00:43:14.480 Yeah.

00:43:14.760 Wow.

00:43:15.080 Like so many things that happened.

00:43:17.720 Um, so yeah, and I remember kind of feeling distant and more distant from Victor and he did

00:43:27.300 overlap my visit.

00:43:28.720 He came down March of 2010 with his wife and one of the other maidens.

00:43:33.040 So he was still married.

00:43:34.920 Oh yeah.

00:43:35.460 During all of this.

00:43:35.940 Mm-hmm.

00:43:36.380 Mm-hmm.

00:43:36.460 Still married.

00:43:37.680 In fact, she lived in the house next door to where the lodge was at the camp.

00:43:42.940 She lived in the house right next to it. 0.99

00:43:44.880 Wow.

00:43:45.600 Okay.

00:43:46.200 So he came down to Brazil.

00:43:47.260 Yeah.

00:43:47.880 In March of 2010 and overlapped my visit for 15 days and I purposely positioned myself to

00:43:54.880 where he would not be able to have sex with me.

00:43:56.880 I just felt very, um, distant from him and did not want that from him.

00:44:02.840 So then they sent me, um, at that point, most people had relocated to Washington state.

00:44:08.420 Um, and so I went back out to Washington state, the maidens again, we're living in one house

00:44:15.360 and they had started a cleaning company.

00:44:17.560 So we were going door to door, just giving our flyers and asking to clean people's homes.

00:44:22.880 And I remember going in and seeing tons of like family pictures on the walls.

00:44:27.460 And at one point the Titanic soundtrack was playing and I was like, oh my gosh, I remember

00:44:32.020 this.

00:44:32.560 Like, you know, like it was just.

00:44:33.800 And yeah, that was like 1997 and you were like, oh, yeah, I had a life before this,

00:44:41.520 which you had probably almost kind of forgotten about.

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00:45:25.580 Okay, so contact with the outside world is when things kind of started crumbling inside you.

00:45:36.140 Right.

00:45:36.600 Yeah.

00:45:36.960 So it was June of 2010 and I'm sitting on the couch with one of the, she was like the head

00:45:43.620 of the maidens.

00:45:44.700 And I just looked at her and I said, I don't want to be a maiden anymore. 1.00

00:45:48.040 And I don't agree with Victor sleeping with the married woman and I want to leave. 1.00

00:45:52.400 I want to get married and have a family.

00:45:55.340 And she immediately called her mother, who was Jan, and she came over and, you know, they

00:46:03.020 said all this stuff, you must not love God anymore and you're going to forget your first

00:46:06.640 love, meaning Victor.

00:46:07.900 Yeah.

00:46:08.100 The blood of the lamb covers all sin.

00:46:09.960 You just need to forgive him and move on.

00:46:12.880 Then they got Victor on the line and still to this day, I'm like, how did I stay strong?

00:46:19.040 Because there, I mean, there's been a few other times that I had tried to leave as a

00:46:23.420 teenager that I had told Victor I wanted to leave and it just did not go my way.

00:46:27.660 He just manipulated you into staying.

00:46:29.920 Yeah.

00:46:30.380 Yeah.

00:46:30.720 Called me Judas Iscariot, you know, just like said all these terrible things.

00:46:34.680 Um, so, but I told them, I was like, nope, I am leaving.

00:46:39.440 I want to leave.

00:46:40.200 And they called my family who had, um, in 2009, I believe moved back to Pennsylvania because

00:46:48.040 of Victor sleeping with the married woman.

00:46:49.560 A lot of things had kind of broken up in Minnesota.

00:46:52.380 Um, and they said, yeah, I can move in with them.

00:46:55.000 So they, everything happened really fast.

00:46:57.760 They gave me $500 and bought me a train ticket.

00:47:01.520 And I took Amtrak all the way from Washington state to 30th street station in Philadelphia.

00:47:07.560 And it took me three days.

00:47:09.820 But they were still, were your parents still in the way?

00:47:12.320 Yeah.

00:47:12.780 Yes.

00:47:13.440 Yeah.

00:47:13.980 In Victor's ministry.

00:47:15.120 But I guess they weren't worried about going against Victor.

00:47:20.100 They let you come home.

00:47:21.660 They did let me come home.

00:47:23.160 They still were sending money to him and had pictures of him up in the house.

00:47:27.320 My mom was very much involved with everything out going on in Washington on the phone with

00:47:32.780 them all the time.

00:47:33.700 I think my dad had kind of started slipping away from the ministry.

00:47:39.380 Um, yeah.

00:47:40.460 So I moved and, oh my gosh, I like, didn't even know what the internet was.

00:47:45.600 I, I remember somebody telling me what a cell phone was and how you could text on it.

00:47:50.640 I'm like, how is that even possible?

00:47:52.300 Like, how is that faster than calling someone, you know, things were just so foreign. 1.00

00:47:57.080 Yeah.

00:47:57.520 Wow.

00:47:58.220 I remember one of the first things I looked up was the Backstreet Boys because they were

00:48:02.040 popular when I left.

00:48:03.460 You were like, what is Nick Carter doing now?

00:48:05.220 Yes.

00:48:05.320 I was like, oh my gosh, like, is he married now?

00:48:08.180 Yeah.

00:48:09.420 Yeah.

00:48:10.080 Wow.

00:48:10.700 Yeah.

00:48:10.940 You were like a time capsule.

00:48:12.800 Mm-hmm.

00:48:13.700 Okay.

00:48:14.100 So when you moved back home to Pennsylvania, did you leave?

00:48:17.540 Or like, did, what it, like, what was your faith like at that point?

00:48:22.260 Yeah.

00:48:23.140 Um, I would say, I would say I still believed in God at that point.

00:48:29.080 Um, but I was not wanting to remain faithful to Victor and the maidens.

00:48:34.340 Um, I had gotten a few letters, a couple phone calls, and I would write back here and there,

00:48:39.580 but eventually I just stopped responding.

00:48:41.460 Um, I really gave myself over to, or at that point I thought the only way to make a man

00:48:50.080 happy was to sleep with him.

00:48:51.560 And so I slept around a lot.

00:48:54.760 I lived in a lot of sin.

00:48:57.080 I didn't, at that point I didn't know what Victor had done still to me.

00:49:01.620 I would just tell people, oh, I was really sheltered because they would say, what have

00:49:05.260 you lived under a rock?

00:49:06.380 Like, how do you not know these things?

00:49:08.540 Yeah.

00:49:08.760 Um, you were, you said 23, 23.

00:49:12.060 So you were just going out into the world.

00:49:15.700 Yeah.

00:49:16.200 I got my first job.

00:49:18.180 Um, I joined three ultimate Frisbee leagues at one time.

00:49:22.520 I was just, anytime somebody said, Hey, do you want to do this?

00:49:26.400 I was all in.

00:49:27.600 I just wanted to live life.

00:49:29.360 Understandable.

00:49:29.840 Um, and I, oh, I made a lot of terrible choices though.

00:49:36.360 You know, I, I don't think I thought much about God.

00:49:40.840 I, I knew I believed in him, but I did not pray to him really.

00:49:45.460 I didn't read my Bible.

00:49:47.780 Um, I just was really interested in exploring and living life and making friends and, and

00:49:56.320 getting away from my parents, you know, because they were still supporting Victor.

00:50:00.680 Right.

00:50:01.800 Yeah.

00:50:02.240 Tell me about hearing the gospel.

00:50:04.380 Oh gosh, that was 13 years later after that.

00:50:11.380 Um, so up until 13 years later, when you were 36, you were just basically living a secular

00:50:18.320 life.

00:50:19.560 Yes.

00:50:20.520 Yep.

00:50:21.160 And you had a job, you had boyfriends, you had friends, but you were lost.

00:50:28.180 Yeah.

00:50:28.540 Very lost.

00:50:29.680 I had a daughter in 2014.

00:50:32.980 Um, oh gosh, would she, it's like cliche to say, but I know God gave her to me just at

00:50:39.000 the right time.

00:50:39.740 I was really at a low place thinking of ending my life.

00:50:44.760 You know, I just kept thinking over and over again, if God is a God of love that I read

00:50:49.340 and believed for so long, why would he let this happen to me?

00:50:52.140 You know, if heaven is so great, why don't I kill myself now and, and not live in this

00:50:56.720 internal pain that I feel, you know?

00:50:58.800 Because of everything that had happened.

00:51:00.240 Mm-hmm.

00:51:01.040 Yeah.

00:51:02.300 Um, and my daughter, Francesca, five or six years old, started asking questions.

00:51:10.080 Why don't we pray, mom?

00:51:11.740 Um, I remember driving down the highway in New Jersey and she said, mom, if a mommy has

00:51:17.340 a baby and that baby dies and goes to heaven and God sends that mommy a new baby, is that

00:51:23.680 like God giving her a new baby for her to care for? 0.93

00:51:27.540 And I, I didn't know what to say.

00:51:30.060 You know, I, I did know that I didn't want to put my trauma on her.

00:51:33.680 You know, I had enough sense to, to think, okay, if she wants to go to church, I will

00:51:38.540 support that.

00:51:39.180 I want to support this.

00:51:42.400 Um, but it wasn't until we moved to Texas, um, in 2022 that we met some friends in our

00:51:49.820 apartment complex and they just had this light about them.

00:51:54.040 You know, when you meet people and you're like, I want to be friends with them.

00:51:56.760 They just have exude this love and they were Christians.

00:52:01.160 They did not pressure me to go to church though, which I really respected because a lot of people

00:52:06.000 had done that.

00:52:06.660 They almost made me feel guilty for feeling the way I was feeling.

00:52:10.560 Yeah.

00:52:10.840 Um, and I shared my story with the wife one night after we had gotten close and, um, it

00:52:17.280 was a couple months after that we were sitting after dinner and I looked at her and I said,

00:52:21.060 this is going to sound crazy, but thank you for never inviting me to Bible study.

00:52:26.340 And she started crying and she said, Lindsay, when I heard your story, I went home and just

00:52:32.320 wept tears for you because the God I know is not the one who was preached to you.

00:52:38.060 And I think my heart, like God was just drawing me in.

00:52:42.260 It was the, the timing of it was amazing.

00:52:44.960 They asked if I wanted to stay for devotions that night and I said, yes.

00:52:49.100 And they picked a hymn that they didn't know I knew, but I had grown up singing it since

00:52:53.740 I could remember.

00:52:55.040 And, um.

00:52:56.200 What was it?

00:52:56.700 I don't even remember now.

00:52:59.500 Maybe they will have to ask.

00:53:01.660 Um, but the husband used to be a pastor and I told them later that night, I said, I would

00:53:08.060 love for somebody to sit down with me and I can go through things that Victor had taught

00:53:12.520 and then I want to open the Bible and I want to see what God actually says.

00:53:15.900 And immediately they said, we'd love to do that with you.

00:53:18.560 And I went home that night and opened the Bible.

00:53:22.160 It was the one that Victor had given me.

00:53:23.800 And I sat on my couch and opened it and just cried.

00:53:27.840 And it was like coming home to an old friend.

00:53:29.640 Cause you know, like I did know him when I was little and I read through my journals now,

00:53:34.040 even from when I was in the cult.

00:53:36.000 And it's always, thank you God for keeping me safe.

00:53:39.020 Like, thank you for providing bread for us today.

00:53:41.800 I didn't know where we were going to get any, you know, thank you for giving a shampoo and

00:53:45.580 conditioner cause we were out.

00:53:47.540 And, um, it's just knowing and believing that he was there the whole time.

00:53:53.580 You know, even after I rejected him for 13 years that he was there carrying me, um, just so

00:54:01.160 overwhelming, you know, it's like that, um, he leaves the 99 to find one.

00:54:06.580 He was just all those years drawing me and drawing me in.

00:54:09.960 And my heart was, was open to him.

00:54:14.040 Um, and we started going to church and I remember the first few times I went, I, you know, we

00:54:19.440 were singing hymns that I had grown up singing and just crying through them because it was

00:54:25.040 just such an overwhelming sense of, thank you, Lord.

00:54:28.180 Like, this is what I've been missing.

00:54:30.200 And I had tried before this, all of the self-help stuff, you know, the self-love, the crystals,

00:54:38.920 the, I bought a book on witchcraft, you know, like all the things that I always came up feeling

00:54:43.420 so empty, so unsatisfied.

00:54:47.880 Um, and it wasn't until going back to church and reading the Bible and knowing and believing

00:54:54.880 truly in, in Christ and in God that I just felt so full again.

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00:55:47.740 What was it like learning that Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all one and that

00:56:00.420 Jesus is God who died for you on the cross?

00:56:03.460 Like I imagine some of those things you're like, what are you talking about?

00:56:07.520 It actually, when they explained it to me and we read it in the Bible, I was like, that

00:56:12.060 makes so much sense.

00:56:13.960 You know, it was like things just aligned for me because I grew up believing that they

00:56:19.660 were three separate beings, but not really explained why, you know.

00:56:25.160 But, and it almost, it took the, believing before that Jesus Christ was just a man, it was so clear

00:56:35.240 it being explained that he is God, how Victor twisted it to make, almost make it into himself

00:56:42.260 that he was Christ.

00:56:44.600 Yeah.

00:56:45.440 Wow.

00:56:46.220 What happened to Victor?

00:56:48.860 Me and one of the, the youngest maidens, Jess and I, we went to the police.

00:56:54.880 What year did you go to the police?

00:56:56.360 2012.

00:56:57.540 We went to the police.

00:56:58.180 Okay, so this is 10 years before you became a Christian.

00:57:00.540 Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, we went to the police and it was two years of just telling our story

00:57:06.440 over and over again.

00:57:07.640 It felt like nobody was believing us.

00:57:10.520 January of 2014, we got an email from Tom Lydon at Fox News.

00:57:15.220 He asked if we'd like his help and we said yes because the statute of limitations was going

00:57:19.040 to run out.

00:57:19.880 So the media got involved and things kind of blew up.

00:57:22.640 Um, I was on Dr. Phil and John Walsh and from John Walsh's airing, Victor came on the

00:57:30.640 U.S. Marshals' top 10 most wanted list.

00:57:32.840 Wow.

00:57:33.200 And they ended up finding him in Brazil and extraditing him back and we had the hearing

00:57:37.860 in 2016 and he was sentenced to 30 years in jail.

00:57:42.140 Wow.

00:57:42.920 Yeah.

00:57:43.680 Yeah.

00:57:44.220 And your parents, what are, what are they doing now?

00:57:47.880 My, they're no longer married.

00:57:51.260 My mom actually passed away last July.

00:57:54.780 Um, I did talk to them.

00:57:57.640 My mother supported Victor throughout the whole trial.

00:58:00.220 Her and two of my sisters wrote letters to the judge on behalf of him saying terrible things

00:58:05.320 about me.

00:58:06.280 Um, yeah, I'm sure that was really hard.

00:58:08.900 Yeah.

00:58:09.780 Um, but, um, I did talk to both of them in 2022.

00:58:16.560 My mom and dad on a conference call and, oh man, I told, this was blatantly honest.

00:58:23.200 I said, I used to wish you guys were dead.

00:58:25.660 I used to wish that you were in jail.

00:58:28.160 I have scars on my wrists from cutting, you know, from trying to deal with the pain.

00:58:34.620 And I said, but as, as a mother now, I want you guys to know that I'm doing really well

00:58:40.580 and I wish you both well in your life and, um, we'll never have a relationship.

00:58:46.040 You will never know my daughter, but I, I wish you guys the best and I want you to be

00:58:50.220 doing well.

00:58:51.000 And I wasn't able to forgive them at that point.

00:58:53.820 Um, but I was a few months ago, I'm still in therapy, um, have a wonderful Christian counselor

00:59:00.980 and, um, we talked about forgiveness and in a way it's taking them off my hook and putting

00:59:08.920 them on God's hook.

00:59:09.800 And I, I felt this for a long time, this sense that I needed to be the one to get justice.

00:59:15.500 You know, I needed to hold people accountable, but really, truly believing that God has got

00:59:23.080 it all.

00:59:23.540 You know, we all have to face him in that day and I'm able to forgive my parents and

00:59:29.720 those who harmed me.

00:59:31.740 And it was honestly such a burden lifted, which I never thought it would be.

00:59:36.900 I was like, I don't need to forgive them, you know, like I'm doing fine, but being able

00:59:41.060 to truly forgive them and knowing, like just putting it in God's hand was so freeing.

00:59:48.600 Yeah.

00:59:48.960 Wow.

00:59:49.520 What about your siblings?

00:59:51.040 My siblings?

00:59:52.400 Um, I have contact here and there with one of them.

00:59:55.780 Um, but not really with the rest.

00:59:57.700 I mean, my youngest, the youngest, my brother, he was five when I left home.

01:00:03.780 So I don't even really know him.

01:00:05.960 Um, and the others, I think they're doing well.

01:00:09.480 You know, they all get together.

01:00:10.760 It's been tough for me because they supported my parents.

01:00:14.700 Um, and so it was hard for me to, you know, trust them, but I, I love them and.

01:00:21.280 Yeah.

01:00:21.840 And hope they're all doing well.

01:00:23.260 Yeah.

01:00:23.480 Well, I fully pray and believe that God is going to use you to bring them to Christ and

01:00:30.300 that y'all will have that reconciliation and relationship one day.

01:00:33.720 I'm hoping for that anyway.

01:00:35.820 Can you give a message to people who have been hurt by people in the church who claim

01:00:42.440 to be messengers of God?

01:00:44.040 It may not have been a cult.

01:00:45.820 They could have been a Baptist church, but someone who claimed that they were doing this

01:00:50.560 on behalf of God and they were abused or they were betrayed in some way.

01:00:53.480 And they're feeling like, I could never, I could never believe in God.

01:00:57.800 I can never be a Christian because of what happened to me.

01:01:00.540 What would you say to them?

01:01:01.520 I would say what I've had to do is not put my faith in man.

01:01:08.900 I've had to put my faith in the Lord because it wasn't God who hurt me.

01:01:13.580 It was a man who hurt me.

01:01:15.620 And we are all, we live in a cursed world.

01:01:18.440 None of us are perfect.

01:01:19.460 But that has really helped me be able to step back into a church and kind of have discernment

01:01:27.240 on where I'm placing my trust and my faith is that it is ultimately in God.

01:01:33.680 Not that we can't have people in our lives that we trust and we hopefully get sound advice

01:01:39.660 from.

01:01:40.320 But yeah, I would say putting your trust and faith in the Lord, knowing he is good, he

01:01:48.060 is perfect, not in man, because we ultimately will be let down.

01:01:52.460 We will be hurt.

01:01:53.180 You know, I'm sure I'm going to continue to get hurt throughout my life, but I have the

01:01:58.140 Lord.

01:01:58.860 So, yeah.

01:02:00.800 What is the journey like to forgiving Victor?

01:02:03.900 I would say that's still a work in progress.

01:02:12.300 I had a session with my therapist a couple months ago talking about I'd had a panic attack

01:02:20.440 in Kroger because I saw somebody that resembled Victor.

01:02:24.100 Yeah.

01:02:24.460 First time that has ever happened.

01:02:26.000 And I just really had to focus on grounding myself.

01:02:28.840 My daughter was with me and I didn't want to, you know, scare her.

01:02:32.180 Yeah.

01:02:32.580 And I talked to my therapist.

01:02:33.960 I said, what if Victor does repent and I see him in heaven, you know, like, and it,

01:02:39.760 yeah, it's something that I'm still working through.

01:02:42.840 I think one thing that's helped is knowing hell, anyone who goes to hell, like how awful

01:02:48.660 it must be to go there.

01:02:50.780 And that scares me, you know, like thinking of people there.

01:02:54.200 I used to wish my mom was there and gosh, I hope to God she repented, you know.

01:02:58.860 I think truly believing we are all made in the image of God, you know, even Victor, even

01:03:07.220 somebody who hurt me so badly, he is made in the image of God.

01:03:11.500 So I do pray for his salvation, you know, but I think truly forgiving him in my heart, it's

01:03:20.100 something I'm still working through.

01:03:22.360 Gosh, yeah.

01:03:23.180 Yeah.

01:03:24.140 Well, I love what you said about, it's really about putting someone off of your hook and

01:03:29.280 onto God's hook.

01:03:30.480 Like, because when I think about that, I don't want to think about forgiving someone like

01:03:35.700 that.

01:03:36.020 I just don't.

01:03:36.700 I'm going to be honest.

01:03:37.480 Like if that happened to me or if that happened to my kids, like I'm not really interested in

01:03:42.580 that, but I am interested in God's justice, you know, and of course, yes, God's grace

01:03:48.920 if someone repents and if God chooses that.

01:03:52.240 But I love the idea of you trusting God's justice, that that is the release.

01:03:59.160 It's not feeling happy thoughts about them.

01:04:02.180 It's not being like, gosh, I just hope he's doing great.

01:04:05.660 Actually, like we're thankful that he is being punished.

01:04:08.660 That is earthly justice.

01:04:09.620 That's why governments were instituted to do exactly that.

01:04:13.660 But like releasing that, it seems like that's kind of how you've defined forgiveness.

01:04:18.980 And I think it's a good one.

01:04:20.280 And I'm just, I'm so sorry.

01:04:22.900 I'm so sorry that that happened.

01:04:25.420 And I'm so thankful that God has given you the courage to share your story because you

01:04:30.360 don't have to be crying on this couch and reliving this pain.

01:04:33.820 But it's amazing what God does, that he is the God of redemption and he brings beauty

01:04:41.460 out of ashes and Satan would have loved to silence you and to keep you ashamed and scared.

01:04:48.380 Just say, okay, you have your nice little story, but just keep it over there so people don't

01:04:53.760 criticize you.

01:04:54.720 But God has really given you boldness and I'm just very grateful for that.

01:04:58.240 Oh, thank you.

01:04:59.700 Me too.

01:05:00.340 I keep thinking, you know, I may not know until that day the fullness of why it all happened,

01:05:06.280 but if I didn't use it now to bring glory to God to hopefully save, for him to save one

01:05:12.100 person, what am I doing with my life?

01:05:14.700 You know?

01:05:15.120 So I am just praying that people hear this and they hear.

01:05:20.000 Yeah.

01:05:20.260 Um, how can people support you and your story?

01:05:26.460 Um, gosh, definitely pray for me.

01:05:31.240 Um, I, oh, this is, I don't even, I don't know.

01:05:40.080 I mean, I would love to write a book someday.

01:05:43.360 Prayer is good.

01:05:44.360 Yeah.

01:05:44.560 Prayer is good.

01:05:45.180 Yeah.

01:05:45.360 And share this testimony, share this story so that more people, uh,

01:05:50.260 hear what God can do.

01:05:52.960 And also it's just good warning signs too, because the story that you told him like,

01:05:57.600 yeah, that red flag, I've talked to a lot of people who have left cults and I'm like,

01:06:01.560 it's the same story, like not the same story, but the same thing that the cult leader does

01:06:07.340 and says every single time.

01:06:10.020 Um, what I think is interesting is that clearly from a young age, God put something in you that

01:06:16.020 was like, it's not quite right.

01:06:17.520 Even though sometimes you convince yourself it was, it was like, he was working a long

01:06:21.620 time ago, sowing those seeds of doubt against the entire, you know, cultish mechanism there.

01:06:29.020 And, you know, you tried to resist that for a long time, but he had already kind of captured

01:06:34.660 you and was working on you from an early age.

01:06:37.600 He was.

01:06:38.240 Yeah.

01:06:38.720 Yeah.

01:06:38.960 Well, praise God.

01:06:39.900 Thank you so much for sharing your story, Lindsay, and we will be praying for you and

01:06:44.280 just praying that God uses, continues to use your life and your story for his glory.

01:06:48.920 So thank you so much.

01:06:50.000 Oh, thank you for having me on.

01:07:08.960 Yes.

01:07:10.700 Hey.

01:07:12.100 Here we are.

01:07:13.980 James.

01:07:16.560 Hey.

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01:07:35.400 Hey.

01:07:36.000 Hey.

01:07:36.900 Hey.

01:07:38.020 Hey.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 05, 2025

Ep 1275 ｜ Cult Survivor： Child 'Maiden' Escapes & Is Set Free by Jesus ｜ Lindsay Tornambe

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