Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1281 ｜ Satanic or Sanctified？ Skillet Gets Real About Christmas Controversy ｜ John Cooper

00:00:00.660 Is rock Christmas music demonic?

00:00:04.100 That might sound like a funny question, but this was really a controversy that went on

00:00:08.280 when Skillet released their Christmas song, O Come, O Come, Emmanuel.

00:00:13.100 We've got John Cooper of Skillet here today to talk about some of the blowback that they

00:00:19.920 got, but also his heart and the very touching story behind it.

00:00:24.400 His testimony, too, woven into the story of why they wrote this song and why Skillet

00:00:30.280 does what they do is just incredible.

00:00:31.840 You guys are going to absolutely love this conversation.

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00:00:54.400 John Cooper, welcome to the podcast.

00:01:04.860 Good to be back.

00:01:05.680 How are you?

00:01:06.420 I'm doing well.

00:01:07.160 How are you doing?

00:01:07.920 Good.

00:01:08.120 I like all the Christmas decorations.

00:01:09.920 It looks homey in here.

00:01:12.460 Thank you so much.

00:01:13.480 I feel like I need some hot cocoa.

00:01:15.160 Yeah.

00:01:15.580 Well, we got you water.

00:01:16.980 Is that okay?

00:01:17.340 Yeah, water's fine.

00:01:18.600 Room temperature water?

00:01:19.500 Room temperature water is just as good.

00:01:21.300 Do you like cocoa with marshmallows or without?

00:01:24.860 You know, I probably without, I'm actually not that much of a marshmallow gal.

00:01:30.360 All right.

00:01:31.280 I know.

00:01:32.280 It's big revelations today on Relatable.

00:01:34.620 I'm telling you what, and people are going to be like, I'm not listening anymore.

00:01:37.760 She hates marshmallows. 0.93

00:01:39.500 Exactly.

00:01:39.980 What about you?

00:01:40.680 I go full marshmallow and whipped cream if they have it.

00:01:44.920 Yeah.

00:01:45.220 Like a kid, like with the sprinkles too.

00:01:46.960 Yeah.

00:01:47.320 Take it all.

00:01:48.100 You live in a cold place.

00:01:49.860 Yeah.

00:01:50.020 Actually, you know what?

00:01:50.820 We moved to Nashville about a year ago.

00:01:52.500 You don't live in a cold place anymore.

00:01:53.780 Yeah.

00:01:54.240 Today it's cold, but no.

00:01:56.140 So.

00:01:56.240 You're the only one moving to Nashville, I hear.

00:01:58.580 I hear no one else is moving there.

00:02:01.200 It's the hidden gem.

00:02:02.520 That's right.

00:02:03.260 But it is a great place.

00:02:04.380 Good people are moving there.

00:02:05.960 Yeah.

00:02:06.320 So I'm from Memphis.

00:02:08.360 And then my wife is from Wisconsin. 0.63

00:02:10.800 And I married into Wisconsin.

00:02:12.380 That was part of the deal.

00:02:13.720 Yeah.

00:02:13.880 And I took it because she was a good woman.

00:02:15.600 Yeah.

00:02:15.980 But after 25 years, I am so glad to be gone.

00:02:19.420 It's freezing up there.

00:02:20.700 Yeah.

00:02:20.940 It's constantly snowy.

00:02:22.800 You're bringing in mud, snowy mud all the time.

00:02:25.500 Yeah.

00:02:26.060 Or salt because there's just salt everywhere.

00:02:28.440 And it's just, I'm so glad to be back in Tennessee.

00:02:31.220 Into the South.

00:02:32.160 And Memphis, y'all didn't go back to Memphis though.

00:02:34.980 No, no.

00:02:35.640 Close enough.

00:02:36.040 Memphis has changed.

00:02:36.980 Memphis is a tough place.

00:02:39.980 Yeah.

00:02:40.660 Yeah.

00:02:41.260 I mean, I got held up at gunpoint in Memphis before we moved.

00:02:45.520 So that was 2001.

00:02:46.840 Oh, long time ago.

00:02:47.760 So it's increasingly become a rougher place.

00:02:51.900 Yeah.

00:02:52.400 And I remember getting held up by gunpoint and I was like, I could leave here, you know.

00:02:56.280 Yeah.

00:02:56.800 And then you left for the snow.

00:02:58.380 You're like, the snow's better than this.

00:03:00.100 Yeah.

00:03:00.740 Yes.

00:03:01.100 Six in one hand, you know.

00:03:03.780 Yeah.

00:03:04.260 Well, now you're back into the South.

00:03:06.160 Okay.

00:03:06.760 Speaking of Christmas and hot cocoa, you had a Christmas song come out and I was pumped

00:03:12.340 about it.

00:03:12.840 I thought it was so cool.

00:03:14.440 For those who haven't heard it yet, let's just play a clip of it.

00:03:17.280 It's not 16.

00:03:18.000 Okay.

00:03:19.000 I loved it.

00:03:46.120 But the response was universally positive, right, John?

00:03:49.040 Yeah.

00:03:49.600 Yeah.

00:03:50.440 For the most part, it was actually.

00:03:52.540 It really was.

00:03:53.220 But I'm glad you liked it.

00:03:54.080 Thank you.

00:03:54.180 No, I did.

00:03:54.860 But there was a small fraction of people who wanted to sow some controversy.

00:04:00.500 Yeah.

00:04:01.080 Yeah.

00:04:01.360 Controversy because it feels so empty.

00:04:04.120 Yeah.

00:04:04.280 Yeah.

00:04:04.680 That's Eminem.

00:04:06.360 Anyway.

00:04:07.080 Yeah.

00:04:07.580 It's really funny because so the song came out and well, first of all, it's funny because

00:04:13.060 about a year and a half ago, so our fans started saying, when are you going to do a Christmas

00:04:17.360 song?

00:04:18.160 Yeah.

00:04:18.340 And I remember saying on an interview one time, somebody had asked me, are you ever going

00:04:21.460 to do a Christmas song?

00:04:22.200 And I was like, you've heard me sing, right?

00:04:24.340 You don't want me singing a Christmas song.

00:04:26.820 It wouldn't sound good.

00:04:27.960 And all of a sudden, here we are doing this Christmas song and our fans loved it.

00:04:34.220 And I remember getting a text from a friend.

00:04:37.420 He's actually a public figure.

00:04:38.880 I won't say who.

00:04:39.920 And he was like, he sent me a screenshot and it was him defending Skillet.

00:04:45.640 And I thought, is this a joke?

00:04:47.040 I don't really know what he's talking about.

00:04:48.640 And I hit it back and said, what do you mean?

00:04:51.640 And he sent me this thing about it saying that the song was demonic, but I promise you,

00:04:56.940 no lie.

00:04:57.260 Like an X post, someone saying it's demonic.

00:04:59.120 Yeah.

00:04:59.380 It was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:05:00.600 X, that's right.

00:05:01.540 Yeah.

00:05:01.900 But I honestly thought it was a joke.

00:05:03.680 So I was like, oh, that's really funny.

00:05:05.760 And he's like, they're serious.

00:05:07.640 And I was like, no, they're not.

00:05:10.300 So I ended up texting because he said, yeah, I saw Elisa Childers defending it and defending

00:05:16.640 you.

00:05:17.120 And I thought that can't be true.

00:05:18.900 So I texted Elisa.

00:05:19.880 I'm like, is this really true?

00:05:21.580 And she's like, yeah, short version. 1.00

00:05:23.580 People are dumb. 1.00

00:05:24.720 Yeah. 1.00

00:05:25.900 So that's kind of how the whole thing started.

00:05:28.040 It's a good summary.

00:05:29.000 It's a good summary.

00:05:29.940 That's a good summary for the 2020s.

00:05:32.740 Yes.

00:05:33.140 Just in general.

00:05:34.060 I know we were out.

00:05:34.940 I was out there on X defending you too.

00:05:37.500 I was like, love seeing the gospel proclaimed throughout all genres.

00:05:42.800 But yeah, there was, you know, and Twitter is not representative of everyone, not even

00:05:47.660 close.

00:05:48.140 But you have like this loud group of people who believe that, you know, all music needs

00:05:53.020 to only sound one way.

00:05:54.280 Um, and who, I don't really know the demonic argument, I guess, just because it's loud

00:05:59.880 and like, I don't know, I don't know what it is.

00:06:03.040 So how did you respond to all that?

00:06:05.480 Yeah.

00:06:06.040 You know, I think for me, I had quite a bit of insight into it.

00:06:09.680 Um, so information that you probably don't know.

00:06:12.480 And so I'm assuming your listeners don't know.

00:06:14.640 So I grew up in a very, uh, strict household, um, Southern Baptist, but my particular church

00:06:21.380 was very, very, um, rule-based.

00:06:25.320 Um, and so for instance, I know you've had on your show, you guys have talked about, you

00:06:29.820 know, the Bill Gothard stuff before.

00:06:31.700 Yeah.

00:06:32.160 I've heard some of your...

00:06:33.040 Ginger Duggar Volo.

00:06:33.900 Yeah, that's right.

00:06:34.860 I've listened to some of those episodes.

00:06:36.360 So I didn't grow up near as extreme as that, you know what I mean?

00:06:41.120 But, you know, I, I was taken to Bill Gothard seminars, you know, rock and roll during that

00:06:46.400 time, some of the younger people listening to the show might not really know rock and

00:06:50.560 roll was really was seen as, as maybe the worst thing the devil ever did on, uh, on the

00:06:55.920 planet ever.

00:06:57.380 And the way that, that Bill Gothard and the people that follow this viewed Christian rock

00:07:03.520 and roll was even worse.

00:07:04.780 And so I grew up in that kind of family.

00:07:06.680 When I first heard rock music, I was at my friend's house and I'm going to show how old

00:07:11.500 I am, but, uh, I was like six years old and my friend was like, we, we just got MTV.

00:07:18.020 And I was like, what's MTV?

00:07:19.640 What is that?

00:07:20.260 He's like music television.

00:07:22.040 And I'm like music.

00:07:23.400 I don't even know what that even means.

00:07:24.760 My mom was a piano teacher and a voice teacher.

00:07:27.580 My mom sang opera and things like that. 1.00

00:07:29.360 So, uh, and, uh, he turns on music television and, uh, there's this, this video from Michael

00:07:37.780 Jackson, beat it.

00:07:39.580 And, uh, I thought this is the awesomest thing I have ever heard.

00:07:44.260 Really?

00:07:44.520 Just immediately.

00:07:45.620 You were like, this is amazing.

00:07:47.140 Oh yeah.

00:07:47.840 It was just like, I've, I've never heard anything like it.

00:07:50.880 And I came home and I was singing, beat it.

00:07:53.260 And I mean, my mom gave me a holy butt whooping, a holy, holy roller butt whooping for singing 1.00

00:08:00.000 the devil's music. 0.61

00:08:00.940 That was like the start of, I mean, I was like six years old of like, this music is, is

00:08:07.500 from the devil. 0.97

00:08:08.620 It will take you to hell.

00:08:10.520 It will make you want to, to, to live a life of glorifying the devil and all the things the

00:08:15.560 devil loves.

00:08:16.280 And, and so, uh, I didn't listen to rock music.

00:08:19.960 Um, and I was complaining about it and fast forward sixth grade, sixth grade is usually

00:08:26.400 when people start listening to music on their own, you know, and you start wanting to dress

00:08:30.720 a certain way or hang out with friends and you all listen to the same music and all my

00:08:34.560 friends were listening to metal.

00:08:36.060 So, you know, this is the eighties.

00:08:37.740 So it's Metallica and Bon Jovi and basically all this awesome music from the eighties.

00:08:43.220 And I was complaining, I was like, there's no way my parents would ever let me bring Metallica

00:08:47.760 home and my best friend was like, you know, there's Christian rock music.

00:08:52.000 And I was like, no, I did not know that.

00:08:54.980 And so they gave me a Petra tape.

00:08:56.780 And so I brought Petra home saying, mom, guess what?

00:09:00.880 There's Christian rock music.

00:09:03.000 And my parents were so mad.

00:09:05.660 My mom was like, that's even more demonic than Metallica.

00:09:09.780 Okay.

00:09:10.400 So you kind of understand the perspective that some of the people today have.

00:09:15.640 It was similar to what your mom had back in the day.

00:09:17.920 Yeah.

00:09:17.940 That's why I was so, that's why I wasn't bothered about it.

00:09:21.700 I was like, oh, I know these people, you know, like I love these people.

00:09:25.420 I grew up with these people.

00:09:26.680 They really believe Christian music was even worse because it was a wolves in sheep's clothing.

00:09:31.360 They're acting like they're drawing people to Jesus, but they're playing beats that come

00:09:36.400 from, you know, African pagan tribes and, and which, which is, and they see the drum beats

00:09:43.720 as being something that would happen during a, you know, around a fire where they're calling

00:09:47.860 on all sorts of gods and goddesses and the gods of chaos, because it sounds chaotic to

00:09:54.020 them.

00:09:55.200 The, the guitars are loud.

00:09:57.300 God is not a God of disorder.

00:09:59.560 He's a God of order.

00:10:00.780 And so there's like all these trails that they would take.

00:10:03.900 I mean, I read all this stuff growing up.

00:10:06.020 And so even as a young person, God is a God of order, not a disorder.

00:10:09.160 That's why I must not like jazz.

00:10:11.560 That is why you don't like jazz.

00:10:14.000 I'm like, I always think of that Angela line from the office where she's like, she doesn't

00:10:18.500 like jazz.

00:10:19.060 And she's like, just play the right notes.

00:10:21.340 That's how I feel about jazz.

00:10:23.480 So there you go.

00:10:24.060 Now I have a theological basis for it.

00:10:25.980 Yeah.

00:10:26.380 I sometimes make a joke in the studio if we're recording a song and I play the wrong

00:10:30.920 note and I'm like, oh, sorry.

00:10:33.100 I thought we were doing jazz.

00:10:34.300 Yeah.

00:10:34.820 Yes.

00:10:35.400 Thank you.

00:10:36.420 Yeah.

00:10:36.680 Yeah.

00:10:36.820 Jazz can be a little much, you know?

00:10:39.560 Okay.

00:10:39.900 So I didn't realize that they really felt like the beat themselves was not from Christian

00:10:46.540 culture or something.

00:10:47.500 Yes.

00:10:48.120 Got it.

00:10:48.860 Well, in fact, they would say it's from pagan witchcraft.

00:10:52.720 They would say, this is what you, this is what, you know, if you African tribes did 1.00

00:10:57.500 back in, and they would call on, you know, gods, you know, it's just sort of like what

00:11:03.180 we might think of about like Baal worship.

00:11:05.020 What would Baal worship be like when they're calling on gods and entering into all the things 0.99

00:11:10.820 we know they entered into during those, that, that thing.

00:11:14.100 Yeah.

00:11:14.380 And so even as a young person, I mean, I wasn't that theologically astute or anything, but

00:11:20.900 I was raised in a great Christian home.

00:11:23.180 My mom was a Jesus fanatic.

00:11:26.640 So nothing bad I would ever say about my mom.

00:11:29.680 She taught me about Jesus.

00:11:31.240 But even then I knew like some of these things are not consistent.

00:11:35.500 They're not making sense, you know?

00:11:37.800 And they say, well, you can't understand the lyrics anyway.

00:11:39.940 And, you know, my mom would be teaching, she was, she was a vocal teacher, so they should

00:11:44.700 be teaching opera.

00:11:45.960 Yeah.

00:11:46.500 And I'm like, I can't understand.

00:11:48.080 You're not even singing English.

00:11:49.520 It's like Italian or whatever.

00:11:51.120 It's like, I can't understand what you're saying either.

00:11:53.300 So it was just like all these inconsistent things.

00:11:56.100 So they really do believe that it is inherently evil.

00:11:59.120 And then particularly doing it with a Christmas song, you're desecrating something that is

00:12:04.820 holy and making it into, I even heard some people say that we were deconstructing Christian

00:12:13.940 music, things like that.

00:12:16.700 And so anyway, all that to say, it's a long story, but it's kind of interesting coming from

00:12:22.060 that world.

00:12:22.440 It is interesting.

00:12:23.120 I kind of know where they're coming from.

00:12:24.600 And for the most part, I know that they're, they, they care for me and they care for people.

00:12:29.040 They think they're saving people from Satan.

00:12:31.080 And so all I can do is kind of like laugh it off really, you know?

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00:13:38.040 Okay.

00:13:38.600 But I kind of want to hear a little bit more about your story and how you got into doing

00:13:43.360 what you do.

00:13:44.260 I mean, I know some of it, but a lot of people might not.

00:13:47.280 And then also so curious just about your parents' reaction when you started Skillet and all

00:13:52.320 of that.

00:13:53.000 So, okay.

00:13:54.020 So you were in sixth grade.

00:13:56.060 All of your friends were listening to this stuff that you weren't allowed to listen to.

00:13:59.720 There's Christian rock music, not allowed to listen to that.

00:14:02.220 But eventually you did start listening to non-opera music.

00:14:06.580 So what did that look like?

00:14:07.640 And you know what's really funny is my son listens to nothing but opera.

00:14:12.600 That is so funny.

00:14:13.980 That's real life stuff.

00:14:15.220 That is real life rebellion of a child against his parents.

00:14:19.020 We taught him the way he should go and he just listens to opera all the time.

00:14:23.120 That's so great.

00:14:23.420 Yeah.

00:14:23.960 I don't really know what the deal is with that one.

00:14:27.340 But anyway, I got so excited about that story.

00:14:29.620 I forgot what you asked me.

00:14:30.440 Oh, how did I get into it?

00:14:32.100 Yeah.

00:14:32.220 I think what was interesting for me, so again, it's not by any means I was like Mr. Theology

00:14:41.020 or anything like that.

00:14:42.580 But I did recognize the inconsistency even as a young person because we were told, I mean,

00:14:48.740 the church I went to was a Bible-believing church.

00:14:52.080 Yeah.

00:14:52.600 So we were always taught about this, that it's about grace.

00:14:55.560 It's not about rules.

00:14:56.660 And we were always taught things like the Pharisees, they added all these rules in order to earn 0.97

00:15:03.400 God's favor and how that wasn't right.

00:15:06.160 And I would always be like, yeah, but I think you're doing that with music.

00:15:11.320 You know, like, aren't you doing, they say, the church I was at was fixated, I mean, obsessed

00:15:18.420 about the way you dress.

00:15:20.840 So like black was bad. 1.00

00:15:22.740 Black was the devil's color. 0.99

00:15:24.000 So my mom didn't want me wearing black.

00:15:26.520 And it was like, it was, they were fixated on these really weird rules.

00:15:31.000 Arbitrary.

00:15:31.980 Arbitrary rules.

00:15:32.920 And even as a young person, I was like, I just don't see this in the Bible.

00:15:36.480 And on one hand, you're telling me that we don't want to be like the Pharisees.

00:15:39.980 It's all about grace.

00:15:41.380 But the other thing is every day they're fixated on this stuff.

00:15:47.560 And it just, it gave me a really, really bad taste.

00:15:51.380 Um, and again, that is why I can relate to people when they, they actually do go through

00:15:56.120 deconstruction and they have these stories of church hurt and church abuse.

00:16:00.980 I'm like, I actually, I, I'm against deconstruction, but I know what you mean.

00:16:06.340 Uh, I, I honestly do know what you're saying.

00:16:10.080 And I do think that we could do a better job and, and evangelical world of showing the joy

00:16:15.600 we have in Christ.

00:16:16.680 Like instead of just seeming angry all the time, we're not angry.

00:16:19.660 We're really joyful.

00:16:20.780 We love, we love God.

00:16:21.860 So let's, let's fight what we need to fight and let's calm down about some, some of the

00:16:27.200 other things.

00:16:27.680 So even as a young person, I really did not understand this weird music thing.

00:16:32.240 I didn't understand the idea that the devil had created a style of music because I, I

00:16:37.640 remember saying to my mom once, but, but you taught me that the devil doesn't create anything.

00:16:41.760 He distorts things.

00:16:43.060 So how can it be that he created an evil drum beat?

00:16:47.760 I just, even as a seventh grader, I was like, this doesn't, this isn't adding up, you know,

00:16:53.760 but, um, all that to say, I did, I did want to go away from some of that legalism.

00:17:00.420 And I did go away from that, but I never wanted to go away from Christianity. 0.52

00:17:03.960 I never wanted to go away from the Bible or Jesus.

00:17:07.020 I was, I was into that.

00:17:08.380 And so my story is, is actually kind of funny.

00:17:11.680 I guess I'm saying is a, I can relate to some of the deconstruction people.

00:17:15.300 I understand what they're going through.

00:17:16.940 And if anybody is listening, that's like that.

00:17:18.960 I just want to encourage them.

00:17:20.840 I feel you.

00:17:22.020 I hear you.

00:17:23.600 Don't deconstruct from the Bible.

00:17:25.660 Don't, don't leave Jesus over, over this stuff.

00:17:28.580 Just get rid of some of the things that, that people probably good heartedly added on to

00:17:34.860 the faith that they really shouldn't have.

00:17:36.960 Get rid of that stuff, but don't deconstruct from Christ.

00:17:40.200 You know, that is why I was drawn funny enough to the charismatic church.

00:17:44.460 The charismatic church didn't have that stuff.

00:17:47.080 They, they were like, we don't care what you look like.

00:17:49.060 It's all about, are you living in faith, brother?

00:17:51.600 You know what I mean?

00:17:52.380 Are you, are you living the word of God?

00:17:53.900 Are you, are you listening to God?

00:17:55.600 You know, I was drawn to that because they, they loved the music.

00:17:59.380 They loved Christian music.

00:18:00.560 They like, if God put a vision in your heart, you got to go after it.

00:18:03.720 And so they were really cheerful about that.

00:18:06.040 So I do think in some instances, there was some good things that happened from that.

00:18:11.740 For me though, my story, if I can make it even longer, Allie, is basically that.

00:18:18.040 I'm raptured.

00:18:18.940 Not that kind of rapture, but I'm, I'm just really focused.

00:18:24.320 Allie's raptured and I'm not, I don't know what that means.

00:18:26.740 Bad sign, bad sign.

00:18:28.400 What does that mean for me?

00:18:29.520 I saw the film.

00:18:30.340 Yeah.

00:18:30.600 Well, it means I got my, um, eschatology wrong and, but I apparently got the other things

00:18:37.420 right.

00:18:37.680 I don't know what it says about you, John.

00:18:39.400 I don't know, but I'm very, no, I love hearing your story.

00:18:42.580 It's so interesting.

00:18:43.180 It's kind of funny, you know, um, so, um, to make it even longer, but this is kind of

00:18:49.840 the sad part of my story.

00:18:50.980 You know, my mom got cancer when I was 12, she fought cancer for three years on and off

00:18:58.600 for, she, for eight or nine months.

00:19:01.100 Cause it's a really long, I don't quite remember, but you know, those processes of taking the

00:19:06.840 chemo and going through the surgeries is a really long time and you don't know if people

00:19:13.520 are going to make it.

00:19:14.380 Of course, cancer treatments come a long way.

00:19:16.780 Thank God in the last 30 years.

00:19:18.540 But anyway, it came back again.

00:19:21.320 She got really sick.

00:19:22.460 She died when I was 15.

00:19:24.140 So during that time we were, we were, you know, fighting a lot about music and things

00:19:28.880 like that.

00:19:29.380 Um, and, and just everything, haircuts, um, the way I dress, you know, I remember just

00:19:36.300 being teenage stuff, teenage stuff.

00:19:38.460 I remember one time getting grounded because I didn't shave my, my mustache.

00:19:43.560 It wasn't a mustache.

00:19:44.280 I had a few random hairs and I kept forgetting to do it, you know?

00:19:48.080 And my parents were like, you're ruining your Christian witness.

00:19:51.820 You look like a drug dealer and people are going to think that you serve Satan.

00:19:55.080 It was always heavy like that, you know?

00:19:57.760 And so I, but when my mom died, I was, uh, I was 15.

00:20:01.540 Um, um, I was just like, I think a lot of these things aren't real.

00:20:07.880 Jesus is real.

00:20:09.000 The Bible is real.

00:20:10.260 I think a lot of this stuff needs to go.

00:20:12.420 And I just was like, I can listen to whatever I want to listen to.

00:20:16.100 But the truth is I still didn't listen to secular music, secular metal.

00:20:19.740 I listened to only Christian music.

00:20:21.520 Um, and Christian music was there for me, really changed me, helped me, kept me grounded,

00:20:27.680 um, in my faith in, in incredible ways, Petra and, and even things like Amy Grant, which

00:20:34.500 I was more into metal.

00:20:35.820 But if you were, if you were into Christian music, you had to know who Amy Grant was and

00:20:40.460 Michael W. Smith and things like that, Striper, but, and all these great metal bands really

00:20:45.380 helped me because they really sang, most of them sang scripture most of the time.

00:20:50.360 And, uh, and I just remember thinking if I could play music, like this music has helped

00:20:55.880 me so much.

00:20:57.480 Uh, and of course people got to remember this is before the internet.

00:20:59.760 This is before text messaging.

00:21:01.280 There's no cell phones.

00:21:02.340 You're in your room alone at night.

00:21:04.440 You know what I mean?

00:21:05.560 Hey, speaking of, did you see the film?

00:21:07.700 Do you remember the film?

00:21:08.420 I can only imagine.

00:21:09.540 Yeah.

00:21:09.940 I remember it.

00:21:11.740 Yeah.

00:21:12.140 Like in that film, I remember, um, I remember getting choked up at the beginning because the,

00:21:17.880 the, the character that plays Bart.

00:21:19.860 So the, who the film was about when he's a kid, he goes to camp and he meets who becomes

00:21:25.340 his wife and she gives him a cassette tape of Amy Grant and it's called never alone.

00:21:30.320 And I was like, I remember what that, I remember those nights.

00:21:34.520 I mean, we had absolutely nothing and you felt like no one knew what you're going.

00:21:39.420 How can anybody know what you're going through?

00:21:40.660 Your mom just died and none of your friends have had a death in the family and you feel

00:21:44.820 so absolutely alone and you don't know how to talk about it and you don't want to talk

00:21:50.020 about it, but you do want to talk about it.

00:21:51.900 And if your friends ask you about it, you're like, I don't know if I'm up for this, but

00:21:56.240 if they don't ask you about it, you're like, how come my friends aren't asking me?

00:21:58.980 Yeah, they forgot.

00:21:59.720 It's just a brutal time.

00:22:02.500 And, um, Christian music was really, really helpful for me.

00:22:06.860 And I thought if I could ever write a song for some other kid that's going through depression,

00:22:14.460 suicidal thoughts, a death, getting bullied at school, I don't know what they're going

00:22:19.720 through, I want, I would love to do that.

00:22:22.440 And so when I was 18 is, I remember I got very serious in my relationship with the Lord

00:22:27.120 when I was 18 and, uh, I really believed it with all my heart.

00:22:32.020 I believe God was calling me to play music.

00:22:34.960 It's the last thing I'll say about it.

00:22:36.360 It was hard because on my mom's deathbed, um, my mom had gotten very into like word of

00:22:43.680 faith before she died.

00:22:45.260 So we were Southern Baptist, but she had kind of was looking for that, that miracle,

00:22:51.020 you know, the went, went, she kind of went Kenneth Copeland ish, went to some of those

00:22:56.940 things.

00:22:57.440 And so for the last three weeks that my mom was alive, I didn't get to get to say bye

00:23:02.340 to her because she didn't want us to lose faith.

00:23:04.720 She was, she was going to be healed.

00:23:06.140 She was in the hospital, didn't want us to lose faith seeing her like that. 0.96

00:23:10.640 And if we came to say bye, that would be an, an admission of, of not having faith,

00:23:16.200 you know what I mean?

00:23:17.260 And so, um, and again, I'm not saying that to, I'm never disparaging about my mom.

00:23:23.640 She's the reason I'm walking with the Lord, you know?

00:23:25.800 So that's not disparaging.

00:23:27.480 It's just a, that's a sad piece of this story, you know?

00:23:31.120 Um, but I, I knew in my heart I was supposed to be playing music, but I had been told, um,

00:23:38.200 by people that love me dearly that on my mom's deathbed, you know, she's pumped full of all

00:23:44.260 sorts of, you know, morphine or whatever it is that they give to you when you're in that

00:23:48.500 sort of agony at the end, she was having visions and dreams and whatever.

00:23:53.440 And part of those visions were that one of her sons, me, I was going to lead people to

00:23:59.840 hell through Christian music. 0.63

00:24:01.560 I was going to play Christian music and the devil was going to use me to lead people to

00:24:06.120 hell and things like that.

00:24:07.900 So that was also kind of over me, you know, it was hanging over me, but I just knew God

00:24:13.660 had called me to it.

00:24:14.980 And I just was like, you know, this is, I'm 18.

00:24:18.300 This is one of those things.

00:24:19.760 Are you going to do what God's called you to do?

00:24:24.100 Or are you going to, I don't know.

00:24:27.160 I don't know if I'm stretching to say this, but it kind of felt like a, uh, let the dead

00:24:31.300 bury their own, the dead kind of a thing, you know, not that she was dead, but almost

00:24:34.920 like, I can't live with that over my life.

00:24:37.460 I know God's called me to this and, um, I don't believe it was real.

00:24:42.180 I just think there were really godly people that were wrong about something.

00:24:45.260 Yeah.

00:24:46.960 That's kind of heavy today, isn't it?

00:24:48.800 No, but it's actually, it's really interesting to hear how you kind of, how you started because

00:24:54.340 it's not an expected route to get there.

00:24:58.020 It's actually the opposite route.

00:24:59.740 It is.

00:25:00.480 Of what a lot of people would say, because I don't know, maybe a lot of people would say,

00:25:03.620 oh yeah, I grew up around this stuff.

00:25:05.200 This is what my parents loved.

00:25:06.680 They were always playing Michael Jackson or Aerosmith or whatever it was.

00:25:10.500 And that's not at all.

00:25:11.840 You had to overcome probably a lot of internal turmoil to say, this is what I'm going to do.

00:25:18.580 And not only did you, it's not that you became Michael W. Smith, you became Skillet.

00:25:23.580 Right.

00:25:24.040 And that is, you know, very different than what your parents may have said that they wanted

00:25:28.400 at the time.

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00:26:31.800 Talk about starting out a little bit more.

00:26:34.640 Like, how did you meet Corey?

00:26:36.480 How did you form everything?

00:26:38.320 Because some people who are just seeing this one music video, who think, oh, this is demonic,

00:26:44.440 whatever, they may not have known that Skillet has been around the block and sharing the gospel

00:26:50.060 through your music for a very long time.

00:26:53.080 Right, right.

00:26:55.120 I think that was part of what was funny is I was like, I think this is the most pushback

00:26:59.660 we've gotten for our sound in like 25 years.

00:27:04.600 I was thinking like, I thought everybody knew who we were by now.

00:27:07.260 That group of people would know to stay away from us.

00:27:10.500 Yeah, if they didn't like it, right.

00:27:13.020 But it is an interesting story.

00:27:15.060 I think a piece of why the story is interesting is that a lot of people in my situation would

00:27:23.920 just leave traditional Christianity. 0.99

00:27:26.860 And so I think even, this isn't what you're asking me, but even going back to a few years

00:27:31.660 ago when I began to be very outspoken against things like progressive Christianity, deconstruction,

00:27:38.760 and some people would start calling me a fundamentalist and I started laughing about it.

00:27:43.900 I think that they would have expected because the music I played because of my tattoos or the

00:27:49.040 way I looked, they'd be like, we would have thought you would have understood.

00:27:52.860 And I'm like, I do understand, but the word of God stands forever.

00:27:58.500 The word of God does not change.

00:28:00.460 He changes not.

00:28:02.460 And if you walk away from that, you are in dire straits.

00:28:08.180 You are going down a very, very dangerous path.

00:28:11.020 And I love you too much to let you do that.

00:28:13.620 So I think there's an interesting aspect of this, of, we never would have called it deconstruction,

00:28:19.520 but letting some of those things go to pursue Christ.

00:28:23.540 What does the Bible say about these things, you know?

00:28:25.980 And so how we got started in college, I met a pastor of a reformed charismatic church,

00:28:36.340 if you can put those things together.

00:28:38.780 Some people listening might be laughing right now.

00:28:41.140 Very reformed, very post-mill dominionist, but also sort of charismatic.

00:28:50.100 And he was also a Christian concert promoter.

00:28:54.700 So he had, in the 70s and 80s, promoted Petra and DeGarmo and Key and all these early Christian 0.77

00:29:01.800 bands.

00:29:02.960 And I basically met him.

00:29:05.000 And when I went to college in Memphis, he said, hey, basically, he said, you know what

00:29:10.500 I like about you?

00:29:11.440 I said, what?

00:29:11.820 And he goes, I can tell you have a passion for Jesus.

00:29:14.440 And I said, I do have a passion for Jesus.

00:29:16.460 He said, I feel like you're someone that in your heart, you want to never, ever compromise

00:29:22.500 the gospel.

00:29:23.260 I said, that's exactly who I am.

00:29:25.100 And he said, the problem is, is that you don't know how to live for Jesus. 1.00

00:29:28.520 He said, you're a hypocrite. 1.00

00:29:29.800 You just don't know it. 1.00

00:29:30.720 And I said, tell me more.

00:29:33.900 And he was right.

00:29:34.900 I knew in my heart I was not actually living for Jesus, but I didn't know what that meant.

00:29:38.940 So he took me under his wing and he became, you know, we went through, do you remember

00:29:43.220 the book, Experiencing God?

00:29:46.200 I think that was Blackaby.

00:29:47.500 I think, I think.

00:29:48.940 I don't know.

00:29:49.680 Experiencing God was one of those early great devotional series.

00:29:54.140 I think he was a Baptist guy, actually, if I remember correctly.

00:29:57.420 But we started going through that together and I, my mind was just blown because I began

00:30:02.520 to understand systematic theology and scripture.

00:30:06.100 He introduced me to people like Luther and Calvin and people like that.

00:30:10.680 And then I realized that really I, I was passionate for Jesus, but I really was not living as a

00:30:16.240 disciple.

00:30:17.160 And so it was through that discipleship that he, he said, hey, you know, you can take these

00:30:22.400 principles into your music and you can begin to use that for God.

00:30:27.780 Don't waste your life doing it.

00:30:29.240 And that's how we, we started.

00:30:31.240 We, my wife's dad, so Corey's from Wisconsin.

00:30:34.000 I'm from Memphis.

00:30:35.180 And Corey's dad was a pastor of a church up there that was sort of a sister church to the

00:30:41.400 one I ended up at in college.

00:30:43.340 And so one of my pastors kept saying, hey, I know this, I know this other girl that plays

00:30:47.780 music like you do.

00:30:48.860 It's funny.

00:30:49.320 She's going to come down and visit us.

00:30:50.580 I want to introduce you guys.

00:30:52.720 He never thought we would end up married.

00:30:55.140 He just thought, oh, I bet you guys would be friends because you both play music, Christian

00:30:58.820 music.

00:30:59.640 And so she came down and, and, uh, I thought she was really cool.

00:31:03.780 And I said to him later, I said, hey, what do you think about, I don't know, me and, me

00:31:08.120 and Corey.

00:31:08.620 And he's like, oh, she would never, she would never like you.

00:31:11.840 He's like, she's deep and she's, she's, she's educated.

00:31:16.020 She's smart.

00:31:17.060 She's intellectual.

00:31:18.500 And you're like, thanks.

00:31:19.300 Yeah.

00:31:19.580 He's like, you're, you know, he was right.

00:31:23.580 Yeah.

00:31:23.820 I, you know, uh, but I was like, I think that she, I think she might feel the same way.

00:31:28.580 So it was a classic opposite to track.

00:31:30.760 Cause she, she is educated and, uh, brilliant.

00:31:33.800 She's a brilliant person, much deeper than I am much more educated.

00:31:36.680 By that time in my life, I'd only read probably three or four books ever.

00:31:40.580 You know, I couldn't read at a massive ADHD, so I couldn't read and pay attention.

00:31:44.940 And I was high, way more hyper than I am now, which is hard to believe for people that only

00:31:50.280 know me now.

00:31:50.960 But, uh, that's how we started.

00:31:52.640 And that was in 96 and, um, started playing around town.

00:31:58.380 We, we made a record that came out in 96.

00:32:01.340 Never thought it would last this long, but that's, that's the skillet story.

00:32:04.660 And what year did y'all get married?

00:32:06.760 97.

00:32:07.780 Okay.

00:32:08.300 So, so next year is, uh, 30 years for skillet, 29 for me and Corey.

00:32:14.860 Oh my gosh.

00:32:15.540 That's amazing.

00:32:16.460 That's awesome.

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00:33:44.260 I was reading some of the comments.

00:33:46.080 I was just looking for the tweet that I retweeted and I couldn't find it.

00:33:50.300 It was someone in the midst of all this controversy.

00:33:53.140 You've got people saying this is demonic.

00:33:54.860 And then you've got people defending you.

00:33:56.640 And I loved seeing the personal stories.

00:33:58.560 I saw one guy said that he went to one of your, I guess maybe you opened for Papa Roach.

00:34:03.620 Would that have been correct?

00:34:05.200 Maybe a long time ago.

00:34:06.500 We've done a lot with Papa Roach.

00:34:07.420 But if I remember the tweet correctly, that was back then.

00:34:10.140 Yeah.

00:34:10.180 Okay.

00:34:10.480 So a while ago and that you came out and shared the gospel to all of these people, because

00:34:14.980 Papa Roach, they're not Christian. 1.00

00:34:16.640 And so a lot of the people there, maybe had never heard the gospel.

00:34:19.620 They weren't expecting to hear the gospel.

00:34:21.020 But was that the kind of thing that you did a lot, especially early on?

00:34:25.420 Yeah.

00:34:25.740 And so let me say this.

00:34:26.760 So when we toured with Papa Roach, to my knowledge, nobody in the band was saved.

00:34:32.240 Yeah.

00:34:32.900 Since then, the singer Jacoby is born again and he talks about his faith.

00:34:38.340 Yeah.

00:34:39.640 And I would have been one along many people who would have had these gospel conversations.

00:34:49.700 You know, that is as Billy Graham always said, the average person here's seven times, here's

00:34:53.680 the gospel seven times before they, the average Christian before they give their life to Christ.

00:34:58.220 So we all do our little parts.

00:34:59.860 But my point is, I only want to say that so people know.

00:35:04.900 Jacoby is his name, a good friend of mine.

00:35:06.760 The band is good friends of ours.

00:35:08.640 Whether they're Christians or not, they were good friends of ours, but Jacoby did get born

00:35:13.180 again.

00:35:14.600 And also, by the way, sorry, this is, you can tell my ADD kicks in.

00:35:18.720 Sometimes there is a lot of rock stars, I call them rock stars, getting truly born again

00:35:25.320 over the last year.

00:35:26.920 It is something that, you know, in my 22 years in the secular metal industry, I've seen two

00:35:33.760 or three people get saved up until a year ago.

00:35:36.260 And I've got seven, eight, nine friends in the last 12 months who have gotten born again

00:35:41.900 and have begun actually talking about their faith.

00:35:45.140 Are there people that have shared that publicly?

00:35:47.900 Like, are you able to talk about who they are?

00:35:49.800 Clint from Seven Dust is someone, I mean, Seven Dust is a very iconic metal band, very outspoken

00:35:56.920 about his faith and several others as well.

00:36:00.040 So it's been pretty, pretty awesome.

00:36:02.280 Yeah, that's amazing.

00:36:03.580 I don't want to be like, there's revival.

00:36:05.220 I'm not saying it's revival, but it's a move of God happening.

00:36:08.700 There's no question about that.

00:36:10.640 And it's becoming a little bit more, people are open to hearing those stories in the rock

00:36:16.000 and roll world, which is really exciting.

00:36:17.860 But yes, Skillet always tried to make it a point to share our faith openly.

00:36:24.260 I sometimes tell people Skillet is the most overtly vocal crossover act of all time.

00:36:31.260 I don't say it bragging on myself.

00:36:33.180 I brag on Jesus all the time.

00:36:35.240 I brag on the power of the Spirit to do incredible things that all we have to do is just be faithful

00:36:41.180 and we take no credit for the working of the Holy Spirit as He's doing whatever it is

00:36:46.760 that He's doing, the Father's will.

00:36:48.460 It's absolutely amazing.

00:36:50.260 And we just be faithful in our little task.

00:36:52.700 But we made it a point, if we're going to cross over, we are going to never be ashamed

00:36:58.620 of the gospel.

00:36:59.580 And that's what we try to do.

00:37:00.880 Now, it doesn't mean every time we go and play a show that we're talking about the Roman

00:37:05.060 road and we're laying out that you're a sinner. 0.98

00:37:07.840 That's not what it's like.

00:37:09.560 But some people don't quite understand.

00:37:13.500 Do you mind if I preach just a little bit, Allie?

00:37:15.600 Please.

00:37:15.860 Come on, girl, it's time.

00:37:17.540 Please, let's go.

00:37:18.940 There you go.

00:37:19.520 You can sing, too.

00:37:20.320 Yeah, that's kind of singing.

00:37:23.020 Two things I think that some people don't understand what it's like.

00:37:25.940 Number one, I think they don't understand that exactly what it's like to be in a situation

00:37:35.280 where no one, in other words, they don't know what it's like to be at a rock and roll

00:37:40.380 metal festival.

00:37:41.180 You don't actually have to come out with a full gospel presentation to be light and salt.

00:37:48.920 You really don't.

00:37:50.340 In fact, it might, in some cases, it sometimes could seem inappropriate.

00:37:54.840 But the point is, is that sometimes it's more powerful.

00:37:58.700 You being just a radical Jesus freak in your life goes an incredibly long way.

00:38:07.240 And I think that the second thing that people don't realize is sometimes the power of the

00:38:12.880 Holy Spirit, because God is always at work.

00:38:16.440 It might be something that, I'm sure you've had these conversations with somebody.

00:38:21.160 Somebody said, Allie, do you remember when you said that one thing, that's what changed

00:38:26.000 me?

00:38:26.240 And you're like, that doesn't make any sense.

00:38:28.160 Because that thing I said wasn't even that good or deep.

00:38:31.420 Yeah, you're like, I don't remember.

00:38:32.580 Yeah.

00:38:32.820 I don't even remember that.

00:38:34.220 You know what I mean?

00:38:34.980 And you might be like, actually, I said some really good things to you one time and you

00:38:39.920 never responded.

00:38:40.620 And you didn't remember.

00:38:41.520 But then this little thing is what did it.

00:38:43.840 And I think that we cheapen the efficacy of the power of the Spirit to do things.

00:38:52.320 And so what I'm trying to say is sometimes what I have seen is things I'm like, oh,

00:38:56.780 I didn't even know.

00:38:57.540 I didn't even know it was a big deal.

00:38:58.620 Can I give you an example?

00:38:59.800 Yeah.

00:39:02.360 Years ago in 2010, when we first had our first radio hit, I remember packing for tour.

00:39:08.980 I was packing and the TV was on like Letterman or somebody was on.

00:39:12.960 I don't know.

00:39:13.260 It was just packing.

00:39:14.600 And a commercial for the NFL came on.

00:39:18.060 And I was like, oh, I recognize this song.

00:39:20.700 And I was like, oh my gosh, it's my song, right?

00:39:23.940 So it was my own, but I literally, I didn't know it.

00:39:27.940 Yeah.

00:39:28.240 And I was like, oh my gosh, it's my song, Hero.

00:39:30.440 That's cool.

00:39:31.420 Yeah, it was really cool.

00:39:32.800 About three years later, we received an email and it was from a couple who both worked in

00:39:41.100 the adult film industry.

00:39:44.680 Wow.

00:39:45.760 They made pornographies and they were watching the NFL one night.

00:39:50.300 And they heard this song, Hero.

00:39:54.800 And they were like, we really like this song.

00:39:57.240 I wonder who it is.

00:39:58.200 And this is in 2010.

00:39:59.580 So you had to go on to chat boards.

00:40:01.360 You know, it wasn't like it is now.

00:40:02.940 You know, you can find out everything as easily.

00:40:04.840 So they went on chat boards with somebody that is a band, Skillet.

00:40:07.900 They went and they started listening to the song.

00:40:09.580 They liked the song.

00:40:10.440 They bought the album, liked the record.

00:40:12.360 And one day they're like, I wonder what this song, Hero, is about.

00:40:15.480 So they Googled an interview with me.

00:40:18.420 I was just at a mainstream event.

00:40:21.080 I wasn't, quote unquote, sharing the gospel.

00:40:24.180 They just asked me on a secular radio interview, so who is your hero?

00:40:29.840 I said, oh, actually, my hero is Jesus Christ.

00:40:33.780 He laid his life down for me when I didn't deserve it.

00:40:37.240 I hated him, but he died for me anyhow, and he gave me a brand new heart.

00:40:43.780 And the wife said, maybe I need to go to church. 0.73

00:40:48.300 I don't know about this Jesus.

00:40:49.860 Maybe he could be my hero.

00:40:51.640 She starts going to church, and she gets born again.

00:40:54.980 Her husband thinks she's a wackadoo, but it's like my wife is not working on the industry

00:41:01.360 anymore, and she's become a holy roller. 1.00

00:41:04.000 He ends up getting saved.

00:41:05.820 And obviously, they quit the industry they were working in.

00:41:09.260 They get baptized.

00:41:10.620 They're in church for three years, and God starts leading them in their hearts to start

00:41:15.960 a ministry to people in the pornography industry, all because of a TV commercial and an interview,

00:41:25.100 which I did not share the gospel, but I was honest to say, Jesus is my hero.

00:41:29.820 He died for me when I hated him, and he gave me a brand new life, a brand new heart, a brand

00:41:34.400 new start, all as if I never sinned at all.

00:41:39.540 Yeah.

00:41:40.320 That one little seed.

00:41:42.060 So yeah, we do preach the gospel.

00:41:44.520 We do talk about the Lord.

00:41:46.620 We do stand up for things.

00:41:48.420 Sometimes I'll preach hardcore.

00:41:49.960 Sometimes I don't say much at all.

00:41:51.760 Sometimes all I'll do if we're playing at a metal festival, which we play lots of metal

00:41:55.620 festivals, all that I'll do is I'll just quote a scripture, and that's it.

00:42:01.800 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not overcome it.

00:42:05.700 And it just depends on if we think the power of the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to,

00:42:10.980 in that moment, to awaken somebody.

00:42:14.280 Yeah.

00:42:15.100 The Word of God doesn't return void.

00:42:16.900 It's going to accomplish exactly what God sends it out for.

00:42:19.920 Yes, that's right.

00:42:21.420 That's amazing.

00:42:22.160 I love hearing stories like that, the ripple effect that seems so amazing to us.

00:42:27.660 And when you think about it, that you are aware of that, but how many more examples of

00:42:34.400 that are you not aware of, that you won't know of until you get to the other side of

00:42:38.440 glory, and maybe something that you are indirectly a part of, and that is true in the life of every

00:42:44.200 believer.

00:42:44.660 Or what a gift it is when we do hear someone's testimony, like we might get a message, or

00:42:49.860 I might hear, a guest that you had on in 2023, I happened to listen to it, it reminded me of

00:42:56.800 this, and all this stuff, and God is so good to show us that.

00:43:00.620 But when it seems like He's doing one of those things, He's doing 10 million of those things.

00:43:05.160 Oh, that's right.

00:43:06.240 All at the same time.

00:43:07.840 All at the same time.

00:43:08.860 Like, if people listening don't know my mom, they'll never meet my mom.

00:43:11.680 And she, every day, is teaching me scripture.

00:43:15.060 She's teaching.

00:43:15.960 She's making me quote scripture.

00:43:17.720 She makes me pray before we go to school.

00:43:20.620 Everybody has a job to do, and you're not going to be aware of the seeds you're throwing

00:43:26.380 out.

00:43:26.840 So everybody listening, you need to go and throw those seeds out.

00:43:30.580 Be that gospel mom. 0.99

00:43:32.480 Be that gospel dad at work.

00:43:34.680 Things like this.

00:43:35.700 Because it's just as easy as somebody that's working that refuses to pad their numbers.

00:43:43.420 Why aren't you padding your numbers?

00:43:44.740 Other people are.

00:43:45.820 Why aren't you doing so-and-so?

00:43:47.380 You could be making more money if you are willing to X, Y, or Z.

00:43:51.380 And the truth is, everybody's kind of doing it.

00:43:54.280 I don't do that because X, Y, Z.

00:43:58.040 That kind of life speaks so much about the power of the gospel.

00:44:02.840 Yep.

00:44:03.620 Do it.

00:44:03.940 And there's so many excuses in every industry, but certainly when there's any level of fame

00:44:09.580 or any level of money on the table, the temptation is always really strong for people.

00:44:16.760 We'll just compromise a little bit.

00:44:18.160 Sure, you're a Christian, but this is how we do things.

00:44:20.840 This is how you negotiate.

00:44:22.600 This is how you get the deal.

00:44:24.100 This is how, no, this is just how it's done.

00:44:27.360 And I think we also have to be comfortable as Christians that, okay, we do the right thing.

00:44:32.440 We follow Christ.

00:44:33.260 That does not guarantee that it's going to work out well in a material or earthly way for us.

00:44:39.400 It's not, you know, necessarily a movie where the good guy wins in the short term.

00:44:46.040 Right.

00:44:46.700 You know, and we just have to be comfortable to count the cost and say, I'm going to do what God has called me to

00:44:51.080 me to anyway, and he's going to use this for eternal glory, but it might feel like we're losing.

00:44:57.300 Right.

00:44:57.840 That is a great point.

00:44:59.580 I wouldn't even mind mentioning this because one of the first times I was on with you years ago in 2020, I think.

00:45:06.080 I can't remember.

00:45:06.460 Yeah, probably about your book.

00:45:07.740 About my book.

00:45:08.440 That's right.

00:45:09.000 I was so thrilled to be on your show, and you had asked me about the prosperity gospel all the way back then.

00:45:14.500 And at the time, I didn't fully know what the prosperity gospel was, but I did have people that were involved in, I knew lots of people involved in Word of Faith.

00:45:24.040 Yeah.

00:45:24.200 So I've not been in any Word of Faith churches, but I do know a lot of people like that.

00:45:29.220 But this is where I would say now I would delineate on the prosperity gospel, where I think they get it wrong, which is what you're saying.

00:45:38.420 What God is guaranteeing you is that if you obey his commandments, you will be blessed.

00:45:45.200 He's not guaranteeing you that blessing looks like riches.

00:45:50.720 So as you just said, well, I could be doing these things in my business, and we could make more money, and everybody's really doing it.

00:45:57.940 And so you're saying, I'm going to do it God's way.

00:46:02.360 But just because I'm doing it God's way doesn't mean that now I'm going to be even richer than all those people.

00:46:07.360 It doesn't work that way.

00:46:09.160 But what it means is that by keeping God's laws, his covenant law, covenant law keeping, always leads to covenant blessing, right?

00:46:18.800 Or I believe it does anyway.

00:46:21.020 And that is not prosperity gospel.

00:46:23.460 This is something different.

00:46:24.780 You are going to be blessed, but we give it to the sovereignty of God to say, hey, you choose what that blessing is going to look like.

00:46:32.260 It might be blessing that I can go to bed at night in peace and that my kids can be raised in a home where they go, my dad and mom never compromised.

00:46:41.540 They didn't care about money.

00:46:42.640 They cared about pleasing God, want to be a God pleaser, not a man pleaser.

00:46:47.040 Tell me, every parent listening right now, tell me, would you rather trade all the money in the world for that kind of testimony for your kids to see, oh, my parents would not lie and cheat because the gospel is too sweet to them?

00:47:04.940 And yes, you would give up that extra money in a heartbeat.

00:47:09.700 And the extra money probably isn't even that much anyway.

00:47:12.080 Like sometimes you look back on it, you know, sometimes it's really dark, but you think like Judas, he's like for 30 pieces, like just 30.

00:47:19.960 I don't know, not even 60.

00:47:21.620 He probably didn't even live long enough to spend it.

00:47:24.240 No, he clearly didn't. 1.00

00:47:25.860 He was on the ground like an idiot. 1.00

00:47:28.080 But we all do that. 1.00

00:47:29.280 You know, we all end up selling ourselves short for something so stupid. 0.99

00:47:34.100 And at the end of the day, you're like, it wasn't even worth it compared to the greatness of the riches and glory of knowing Christ. 1.00

00:47:41.340 It was so dumb. 0.96

00:47:42.180 So I would just encourage people, man, never compromise those things. 0.98

00:47:46.860 What the world has to offer, even if it's a ginormous amount, it's worth nothing in the end.

00:47:52.640 You count it all poo. 0.53

00:47:54.040 Yep.

00:47:54.480 That's what Paul says.

00:47:55.400 So true.

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00:48:26.160 That's why I love them so much.

00:48:27.520 Plus, Carly and her family, they're strong Christians.

00:48:29.920 They love the Lord.

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00:48:50.740 Do you think that any of this conversation has to do with why we talked about deconstructing?

00:48:55.560 There's a lot of people in the music industry, Christian music industry, who, you know, sinners like everyone else. 1.00

00:49:02.020 But it seems like, you know, we look up to these people as disciples in some way.

00:49:07.400 They feel to us, it's like, okay, they've got their theology intact.

00:49:12.120 They love the Lord so much.

00:49:13.240 Wow, they're so passionate in how they sing.

00:49:15.220 And when we hear them say, well, I don't believe that anymore.

00:49:18.980 Or actually, while I was singing that, I was doing this opposite sinful thing over there.

00:49:23.880 It almost feels like a pastor betrayed, you know?

00:49:26.980 Yeah, it does.

00:49:28.400 And I know Satan has it out for them, probably for that reason.

00:49:32.100 But like, what's your take as an insider on why that happens?

00:49:35.880 Is it like the material wealth?

00:49:38.300 Is it compromise?

00:49:39.440 What's going on?

00:49:40.220 Wow, I agree with you.

00:49:44.220 It does feel like a pastor, even if you don't know them, right?

00:49:49.500 So there are people in this afternoon, I'm like, I never even knew that person.

00:49:53.160 But I'm just, I can't believe that.

00:49:56.660 Yeah.

00:49:57.200 I can't believe this.

00:50:00.180 I don't want to go down a path that you're not asking.

00:50:03.380 But I do think that we should at least consider why music is so powerful.

00:50:11.400 And we won't go down that.

00:50:12.580 This is an entirely philosophical and theological conversation.

00:50:16.560 And some of it is opinion and philosophy.

00:50:21.140 But from the beginning of the history of civilization, you see people groups using music for religious

00:50:30.340 purposes.

00:50:30.920 Yeah.

00:50:31.600 It's actually only been the last few hundred years that we have this separation between

00:50:35.460 music as art and religion.

00:50:38.240 That's not a thing that happened in history.

00:50:40.420 It was always to do with worship, either to pagan gods or to Yahweh or what have you,

00:50:48.180 for celebrations, right?

00:50:50.320 That's why we have psalms.

00:50:51.800 These were songs and things that people sang.

00:50:54.840 They sang to memorize theology and things like that, right?

00:50:58.820 And to tell their stories, which is really beautiful.

00:51:01.800 If you think about it, we have a story in the Old Testament that is probably most all

00:51:06.940 Christian musicians' favorite, you know, favorite story, but it's powerful.

00:51:11.280 It's King Saul tormented by demons.

00:51:15.420 Demons that God sent, by the way, I'll let you figure that one out, according to the Bible.

00:51:20.500 So, tormented by demons, and he says to his writing guys, like, I'm tormented by demons.

00:51:26.420 I need to get a skillful musician to come and play so these demons leave me.

00:51:30.660 And they call, he said, well, I've actually heard of a, there's a young boy, teenager

00:51:36.080 probably, young teenager named David, and he's a really good musician.

00:51:41.000 And he's handsome, he's a man's man, but he's also a really good musician.

00:51:46.660 And a young David comes in.

00:51:48.340 I get emotional to tell this story.

00:51:49.760 It's amazing.

00:51:50.600 David is such an incredible character.

00:51:52.580 And he's such a, he's a type of Christ as well.

00:51:56.260 So there's a lot of meaningful things there.

00:51:58.900 David comes in and plays, and demons flee.

00:52:02.900 And I don't even know, I'm not going to even go down the philosophy of what this means.

00:52:06.200 What we know for sure is that music has an eternal aspect to it.

00:52:12.340 Eternity past, music, angels singing, creatures, we don't know.

00:52:18.060 Eternity future.

00:52:19.600 You know, people say, well, you can't take it with you.

00:52:21.340 We're taking music with us.

00:52:22.840 Not literally, but it's always going to be here.

00:52:25.880 There's something so very powerful about music that is leading worship.

00:52:31.360 And even if you deny Christ, you're leading worship, you're just leading false worship.

00:52:36.900 And so music is powerful.

00:52:39.200 We do not understand the power.

00:52:41.940 And do you remember that movie School of Rock?

00:52:43.780 Yeah.

00:52:44.100 The funny movie.

00:52:44.840 Jack Black.

00:52:45.340 It's like, one great rock show can change the world.

00:52:48.720 My brother always makes fun of me because I say, that's actually true. 1.00

00:52:52.860 But it just depends on if you believe.

00:52:55.560 And I'm not getting into weird spiritual warfare here.

00:52:57.840 I'm not into that stuff.

00:53:00.100 But I do believe that that happened in the Bible.

00:53:03.360 And so I do believe there is an angelic slash demonic element that takes place with music.

00:53:10.740 So therefore, when we see these people that proclaim these songs about Christ that God did use, that was real.

00:53:18.700 Part of what happens when we see them leave the faith is we start going, was none of this real to begin with?

00:53:23.840 Because God used that song to bring me to the faith or to make my faith more secure or what have you.

00:53:31.520 It's really hard.

00:53:32.740 It does feel like a pastor.

00:53:34.160 I don't know exactly why it's happening.

00:53:37.000 Some of it's practical, Allie.

00:53:38.420 Some of it is, A, a lot of musicians are on the road all the time, so they don't go to church.

00:53:43.720 And that's something that we have always been a part of a church.

00:53:46.980 And we actually kind of made it to where, in a certain way, we saw it as we were being sent out.

00:53:53.300 Not as missionaries, but sort of like that.

00:53:56.520 You know, we're sent out.

00:53:58.200 We're still of you.

00:53:59.320 We still talk.

00:54:00.400 We're still involved.

00:54:01.820 You still speak into my life as a shepherd, even though I'm not around a whole lot.

00:54:06.840 But when we're home, we're in.

00:54:08.660 And we are in church.

00:54:09.780 And we are serving in church.

00:54:12.060 Or we're there.

00:54:14.100 We're at our small group meetings or whatever it is that we're doing.

00:54:17.020 A lot of Christian musicians aren't a part of a church.

00:54:19.480 And I always tell them, like, you're not going to last long.

00:54:23.720 I always encourage you, you've got to get in a church.

00:54:26.100 Or if they are in a church, they're in a church in a way that sometimes church leaders would never come to them and say,

00:54:35.200 I don't know, imagine you had Michael W. Smith in your church.

00:54:37.420 You go to Michael W. Smith and you challenge him something on his life.

00:54:41.060 You know, people might be intimidated to do that.

00:54:42.980 Or they might be like, but he's Michael Smith.

00:54:45.200 He's probably super Christian.

00:54:47.620 You know, how could I do that?

00:54:49.480 Or, and I really hate to say this, but we're all adults here.

00:54:55.420 Or maybe some of them are bringing so much money into the church, pastor doesn't want to make them mad.

00:55:01.040 They want that tithe check to keep coming in.

00:55:03.320 I hate saying that, but I've seen too much and I can never go back again.

00:55:07.740 It's like, oh, God, you know, that scripture in Ecclesiastes, it says, with knowledge comes suffering.

00:55:14.580 That's kind of like, this is one of those moments.

00:55:16.660 But it's true.

00:55:17.720 They need that money coming in.

00:55:19.640 And the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

00:55:22.300 All kinds of evil.

00:55:24.920 So there's lots of things there.

00:55:27.120 Also, the entertainment industry is just, it just tends to be liberal, as everybody knows.

00:55:34.660 And they tend to get out on the road.

00:55:36.320 And you tend to get no accountability.

00:55:39.480 And that's just, all that kind of goes together.

00:55:42.780 Also, with a lot of musicians, let's just be honest, a lot of musicians are feelings based.

00:55:47.480 We are very emotional creatures.

00:55:50.000 We're very like, yeah, but I just feel this.

00:55:52.040 And I feel this.

00:55:52.940 We feel too much.

00:55:53.900 And I think that's probably what makes us good at our craft, probably.

00:55:59.860 We play with emotion.

00:56:01.380 You know, if you go and see, I went to see Tommy Prophet's, what's it called?

00:56:07.120 His Christmas thing last week.

00:56:10.460 I can't remember what you call it.

00:56:11.960 Something of a king.

00:56:12.580 Birth of a king.

00:56:14.120 And you've got all these amazing, I mean, these singers are unreal.

00:56:17.360 They're not like me.

00:56:18.600 These people can sing.

00:56:21.300 But you can tell these are emotional people.

00:56:24.860 They wouldn't be able to sing the way they sing.

00:56:26.920 It's just so powerful.

00:56:28.980 And then if you get out, you're not in church.

00:56:32.600 You have no accountability.

00:56:33.980 You probably didn't understand doctrine that well to begin with.

00:56:37.740 You started off probably with a good heart to tell people about Jesus.

00:56:41.160 But that begins to be a recipe for compromise, you know?

00:56:47.020 All really good points.

00:56:48.600 Yeah, that's my thing.

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00:57:54.620 Okay, where can people go to download Oh Come, Oh Come, Emanuel and your Christmas stuff?

00:58:06.640 All Skillet stuff.

00:58:08.020 Yeah.

00:58:08.740 Okay.

00:58:09.260 And I need to tell you this story because you're going to love it.

00:58:11.520 And it's about the song.

00:58:12.900 All right.

00:58:13.040 Go to Spotify or Apple Music, Skillet, Oh Come, Oh Come, Emanuel.

00:58:17.960 Go to YouTube.

00:58:18.640 The video is really powerful.

00:58:20.400 People haven't seen it.

00:58:21.280 But I found it quite powerful.

00:58:23.640 My favorite response, you should go check it out.

00:58:26.700 I know you got nothing else to do, Allie.

00:58:28.460 So go check this out.

00:58:29.940 You know those, you've seen things on YouTube when people do reaction videos.

00:58:33.600 It's the first time they watch it.

00:58:35.200 There was one, I think that her handle was called Former Worship Pastor or Former Worship Leader.

00:58:41.560 I've never seen her channel before.

00:58:43.100 I don't know her personally, never knew anything about her.

00:58:45.120 I got this, I think that she's like a deconstructed worship leader and is no longer, she'd probably no longer say she's a Christian, but she's still spiritual and she talks about things.

00:58:58.660 Somebody has sent me her reaction video.

00:59:01.540 It's my favorite one I saw because she's watching the video and through the video, she's getting more and more emotional.

00:59:09.020 And by the end, she starts crying.

00:59:11.460 And she says, she's like, if anything could bring me back to the faith I used to have, it would be something like this.

00:59:16.980 You can see it happening.

00:59:18.680 The video is really powerful.

00:59:20.240 Amazing.

00:59:20.640 Because it speaks to something that all of us recognize, and I'm tying this into why people had a problem with the music.

00:59:28.240 So I'm tying all of this in together.

00:59:30.580 They have a problem with our version because it gets so heavy, and I'm screaming, really.

00:59:36.300 It's like, ah!

00:59:37.020 It's really loud.

00:59:38.560 It's really heavy.

00:59:39.940 It feels really angry, and it's angsty.

00:59:42.600 The reason we did that is because O Come, O Come, Emmanuel is an Advent song.

00:59:48.220 It is a song singing about the longing for the Savior, the Messiah, that is going to take away the sins of the world.

00:59:59.040 We are living in not good times.

01:00:02.900 And so, of course, this is singing about the first Advent, but there's also this already-not-yet aspect that happened in theology.

01:00:11.100 But we're also longing, come quickly, Lord Jesus, for the second Advent.

01:00:16.300 The world isn't right.

01:00:19.300 You meet these kids with cancer, and you meet parents who are struggling.

01:00:23.680 Like, my kids had 22 surgeries.

01:00:26.120 I just met someone like this about four weeks ago on the road.

01:00:28.960 We did one of those wonderful make-a-wish things when, like, the kids, their wish is to see Skillet, and they bring them out.

01:00:35.980 And we meet them, and they're like, yeah, I've had 23 surgeries.

01:00:39.240 I'm like, but you're like nine.

01:00:42.000 Like, how?

01:00:43.160 And you meet these parents, and the world is not as we want it to be.

01:00:49.000 And we are longing for that day when every tear is wiped away, you know?

01:00:53.940 So that is why this song gets really heavy, like it does, because this is a dichotomy we're singing about.

01:01:02.900 The reason I'm telling you this is because most of the song is piano and keyboards, which is recorded on computers.

01:01:09.980 The second half is guitars and drums, which have to be recorded in a studio.

01:01:16.900 Day one of recording guitars in the studio, the heavy part, the part where we're crying out that the world isn't as it should be,

01:01:26.080 I get a phone call that Charlie Kirk has just been shot.

01:01:30.120 While we're recording, the very thing we are singing about, and I told Cora, I'm like, you're not going to believe this.

01:01:43.620 This, like, this is exactly what we're talking about.

01:01:48.020 This is, things are not right.

01:01:50.840 And it's one of those things that I don't think I'll ever be able to watch the video or hear the song without remembering.

01:01:58.160 It was, it was just powerful to me, you know?

01:02:03.000 That's what the song's about.

01:02:05.220 And people can see on YouTube, if you want to follow us on socials, it's Skillet Music.

01:02:13.120 Check it out.

01:02:14.300 And maybe even for some of the people that wouldn't like this kind of music, maybe now that you know the story, you'll understand it when you hear it.

01:02:22.120 Wow, I did not know that part.

01:02:23.920 I haven't really said it in hardly any interviews because it just hadn't come up.

01:02:29.580 Most of them have been mainstream interviews.

01:02:30.980 People might not really get it anyway.

01:02:32.640 Yeah.

01:02:33.080 But for those of us who get it and have struggled with that, like, how can, then you have the other.

01:02:40.600 How can God let this happen?

01:02:42.520 What do we, where do we go from here?

01:02:44.680 What does this mean?

01:02:45.580 I mean, all that stuff all hits you at once and we're just crying out, like, Jesus, just come quickly.

01:02:52.740 Yeah.

01:02:52.960 How much more can we take, you know?

01:02:55.140 Absolutely.

01:02:55.880 Amen.

01:02:56.220 Well, thank you so much.

01:02:57.380 Thank the Lord for how faithful He is and just how He's used you and uses us all in these, you know, unseen and unsung moments of obedience that all believers are called to, that He empowers us to do in different ways.

01:03:13.660 Sometimes it's with a microphone, sometimes it's not.

01:03:16.140 But God truly is working all things together for the good of those who love Him, using all of our different skills and passions.

01:03:24.280 And I just love seeing this in you and you and Corey are amazing.

01:03:28.500 Corey was at Share the Eros with her friends and she's just awesome and so sweet and y'all are just the best.

01:03:34.200 So thank you so much for taking the time to come on.

01:03:37.420 Likewise.

01:03:38.000 Thanks for having me.

01:03:46.140 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 19, 2025

Ep 1281 ｜ Satanic or Sanctified？ Skillet Gets Real About Christmas Controversy ｜ John Cooper

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