Ep 1281 ｜ Satanic or Sanctified？ Skillet Gets Real About Christmas Controversy ｜ John Cooper
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 4 minutes
Words per Minute
178.90523
Summary
When Skillet released their Christmas song, "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel," there was a lot of backlash. Is rock music demonic? That might sound like a funny question, but this was really a controversy that went on. We have John Cooper of Skillet here today to talk about some of the blowback that they got, but also the heart behind it. His testimony is woven into the story of why they wrote this song and why Skillet does what they do.
Transcript
00:00:04.100
That might sound like a funny question, but this was really a controversy that went on
00:00:08.280
when Skillet released their Christmas song, O Come, O Come, Emmanuel.
00:00:13.100
We've got John Cooper of Skillet here today to talk about some of the blowback that they
00:00:19.920
got, but also his heart and the very touching story behind it.
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His testimony, too, woven into the story of why they wrote this song and why Skillet
00:00:31.840
You guys are going to absolutely love this conversation.
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Do you like cocoa with marshmallows or without?
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You know, I probably without, I'm actually not that much of a marshmallow gal.
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I'm telling you what, and people are going to be like, I'm not listening anymore.
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I go full marshmallow and whipped cream if they have it.
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You're the only one moving to Nashville, I hear.
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You're bringing in mud, snowy mud all the time.
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And it's just, I'm so glad to be back in Tennessee.
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And Memphis, y'all didn't go back to Memphis though.
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I mean, I got held up at gunpoint in Memphis before we moved.
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And I remember getting held up by gunpoint and I was like, I could leave here, you know.
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Speaking of Christmas and hot cocoa, you had a Christmas song come out and I was pumped
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For those who haven't heard it yet, let's just play a clip of it.
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But the response was universally positive, right, John?
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But there was a small fraction of people who wanted to sow some controversy.
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It's really funny because so the song came out and well, first of all, it's funny because
00:04:13.060
about a year and a half ago, so our fans started saying, when are you going to do a Christmas
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And I remember saying on an interview one time, somebody had asked me, are you ever going
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And all of a sudden, here we are doing this Christmas song and our fans loved it.
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And he was like, he sent me a screenshot and it was him defending Skillet.
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And he sent me this thing about it saying that the song was demonic, but I promise you,
00:05:10.300
So I ended up texting because he said, yeah, I saw Elisa Childers defending it and defending
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I was like, love seeing the gospel proclaimed throughout all genres.
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But yeah, there was, you know, and Twitter is not representative of everyone, not even
00:05:48.140
But you have like this loud group of people who believe that, you know, all music needs
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Um, and who, I don't really know the demonic argument, I guess, just because it's loud
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and like, I don't know, I don't know what it is.
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You know, I think for me, I had quite a bit of insight into it.
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Um, so information that you probably don't know.
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So I grew up in a very, uh, strict household, um, Southern Baptist, but my particular church
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Um, and so for instance, I know you've had on your show, you guys have talked about, you
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So I didn't grow up near as extreme as that, you know what I mean?
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But, you know, I, I was taken to Bill Gothard seminars, you know, rock and roll during that
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time, some of the younger people listening to the show might not really know rock and
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roll was really was seen as, as maybe the worst thing the devil ever did on, uh, on the
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And the way that, that Bill Gothard and the people that follow this viewed Christian rock
00:07:06.680
When I first heard rock music, I was at my friend's house and I'm going to show how old
00:07:11.500
I am, but, uh, I was like six years old and my friend was like, we, we just got MTV.
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My mom was a piano teacher and a voice teacher.
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So, uh, and, uh, he turns on music television and, uh, there's this, this video from Michael
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And, uh, I thought this is the awesomest thing I have ever heard.
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It was just like, I've, I've never heard anything like it.
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And I mean, my mom gave me a holy butt whooping, a holy, holy roller butt whooping for singing
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That was like the start of, I mean, I was like six years old of like, this music is, is
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It will make you want to, to, to live a life of glorifying the devil and all the things the
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And, and so, uh, I didn't listen to rock music.
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Um, and I was complaining about it and fast forward sixth grade, sixth grade is usually
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when people start listening to music on their own, you know, and you start wanting to dress
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a certain way or hang out with friends and you all listen to the same music and all my
00:08:37.740
So it's Metallica and Bon Jovi and basically all this awesome music from the eighties.
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And I was complaining, I was like, there's no way my parents would ever let me bring Metallica
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home and my best friend was like, you know, there's Christian rock music.
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And so I brought Petra home saying, mom, guess what?
00:09:05.660
My mom was like, that's even more demonic than Metallica.
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So you kind of understand the perspective that some of the people today have.
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It was similar to what your mom had back in the day.
00:09:17.940
That's why I was so, that's why I wasn't bothered about it.
00:09:21.700
I was like, oh, I know these people, you know, like I love these people.
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They really believe Christian music was even worse because it was a wolves in sheep's clothing.
00:09:31.360
They're acting like they're drawing people to Jesus, but they're playing beats that come
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from, you know, African pagan tribes and, and which, which is, and they see the drum beats
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as being something that would happen during a, you know, around a fire where they're calling
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on all sorts of gods and goddesses and the gods of chaos, because it sounds chaotic to
00:10:00.780
And so there's like all these trails that they would take.
00:10:06.020
And so even as a young person, God is a God of order, not a disorder.
00:10:14.000
I'm like, I always think of that Angela line from the office where she's like, she doesn't
00:10:26.380
I sometimes make a joke in the studio if we're recording a song and I play the wrong
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So I didn't realize that they really felt like the beat themselves was not from Christian
00:10:48.860
Well, in fact, they would say it's from pagan witchcraft.
00:10:52.720
They would say, this is what you, this is what, you know, if you African tribes did
00:10:57.500
back in, and they would call on, you know, gods, you know, it's just sort of like what
00:11:05.020
What would Baal worship be like when they're calling on gods and entering into all the things
00:11:10.820
we know they entered into during those, that, that thing.
00:11:14.380
And so even as a young person, I mean, I wasn't that theologically astute or anything, but
00:11:31.240
But even then I knew like some of these things are not consistent.
00:11:37.800
And they say, well, you can't understand the lyrics anyway.
00:11:39.940
And, you know, my mom would be teaching, she was, she was a vocal teacher, so they should
00:11:51.120
It's like, I can't understand what you're saying either.
00:11:53.300
So it was just like all these inconsistent things.
00:11:56.100
So they really do believe that it is inherently evil.
00:11:59.120
And then particularly doing it with a Christmas song, you're desecrating something that is
00:12:04.820
holy and making it into, I even heard some people say that we were deconstructing Christian
00:12:16.700
And so anyway, all that to say, it's a long story, but it's kind of interesting coming from
00:12:24.600
And for the most part, I know that they're, they, they care for me and they care for people.
00:12:31.080
And so all I can do is kind of like laugh it off really, you know?
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But I kind of want to hear a little bit more about your story and how you got into doing
00:13:44.260
I mean, I know some of it, but a lot of people might not.
00:13:47.280
And then also so curious just about your parents' reaction when you started Skillet and all
00:13:56.060
All of your friends were listening to this stuff that you weren't allowed to listen to.
00:13:59.720
There's Christian rock music, not allowed to listen to that.
00:14:02.220
But eventually you did start listening to non-opera music.
00:14:07.640
And you know what's really funny is my son listens to nothing but opera.
00:14:15.220
That is real life rebellion of a child against his parents.
00:14:19.020
We taught him the way he should go and he just listens to opera all the time.
00:14:23.960
I don't really know what the deal is with that one.
00:14:32.220
I think what was interesting for me, so again, it's not by any means I was like Mr. Theology
00:14:42.580
But I did recognize the inconsistency even as a young person because we were told, I mean,
00:14:48.740
the church I went to was a Bible-believing church.
00:14:52.600
So we were always taught about this, that it's about grace.
00:14:56.660
And we were always taught things like the Pharisees, they added all these rules in order to earn
00:15:06.160
And I would always be like, yeah, but I think you're doing that with music.
00:15:11.320
You know, like, aren't you doing, they say, the church I was at was fixated, I mean, obsessed
00:15:26.520
And it was like, it was, they were fixated on these really weird rules.
00:15:32.920
And even as a young person, I was like, I just don't see this in the Bible.
00:15:36.480
And on one hand, you're telling me that we don't want to be like the Pharisees.
00:15:41.380
But the other thing is every day they're fixated on this stuff.
00:15:47.560
And it just, it gave me a really, really bad taste.
00:15:51.380
Um, and again, that is why I can relate to people when they, they actually do go through
00:15:56.120
deconstruction and they have these stories of church hurt and church abuse.
00:16:00.980
I'm like, I actually, I, I'm against deconstruction, but I know what you mean.
00:16:10.080
And I do think that we could do a better job and, and evangelical world of showing the joy
00:16:16.680
Like instead of just seeming angry all the time, we're not angry.
00:16:21.860
So let's, let's fight what we need to fight and let's calm down about some, some of the
00:16:27.680
So even as a young person, I really did not understand this weird music thing.
00:16:32.240
I didn't understand the idea that the devil had created a style of music because I, I
00:16:37.640
remember saying to my mom once, but, but you taught me that the devil doesn't create anything.
00:16:43.060
So how can it be that he created an evil drum beat?
00:16:47.760
I just, even as a seventh grader, I was like, this doesn't, this isn't adding up, you know,
00:16:53.760
but, um, all that to say, I did, I did want to go away from some of that legalism.
00:17:00.420
And I did go away from that, but I never wanted to go away from Christianity.
00:17:03.960
I never wanted to go away from the Bible or Jesus.
00:17:11.680
I guess I'm saying is a, I can relate to some of the deconstruction people.
00:17:25.660
Don't, don't leave Jesus over, over this stuff.
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Just get rid of some of the things that, that people probably good heartedly added on to
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Get rid of that stuff, but don't deconstruct from Christ.
00:17:40.200
You know, that is why I was drawn funny enough to the charismatic church.
00:17:47.080
They, they were like, we don't care what you look like.
00:17:49.060
It's all about, are you living in faith, brother?
00:17:55.600
You know, I was drawn to that because they, they loved the music.
00:18:00.560
They like, if God put a vision in your heart, you got to go after it.
00:18:06.040
So I do think in some instances, there was some good things that happened from that.
00:18:11.740
For me though, my story, if I can make it even longer, Allie, is basically that.
00:18:18.940
Not that kind of rapture, but I'm, I'm just really focused.
00:18:24.320
Allie's raptured and I'm not, I don't know what that means.
00:18:30.600
Well, it means I got my, um, eschatology wrong and, but I apparently got the other things
00:18:39.400
I don't know, but I'm very, no, I love hearing your story.
00:18:43.180
It's kind of funny, you know, um, so, um, to make it even longer, but this is kind of
00:18:50.980
You know, my mom got cancer when I was 12, she fought cancer for three years on and off
00:19:01.100
Cause it's a really long, I don't quite remember, but you know, those processes of taking the
00:19:06.840
chemo and going through the surgeries is a really long time and you don't know if people
00:19:24.140
So during that time we were, we were, you know, fighting a lot about music and things
00:19:29.380
Um, and, and just everything, haircuts, um, the way I dress, you know, I remember just
00:19:38.460
I remember one time getting grounded because I didn't shave my, my mustache.
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I had a few random hairs and I kept forgetting to do it, you know?
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And my parents were like, you're ruining your Christian witness.
00:19:51.820
You look like a drug dealer and people are going to think that you serve Satan.
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And so I, but when my mom died, I was, uh, I was 15.
00:20:01.540
Um, um, I was just like, I think a lot of these things aren't real.
00:20:12.420
And I just was like, I can listen to whatever I want to listen to.
00:20:16.100
But the truth is I still didn't listen to secular music, secular metal.
00:20:21.520
Um, and Christian music was there for me, really changed me, helped me, kept me grounded,
00:20:27.680
um, in my faith in, in incredible ways, Petra and, and even things like Amy Grant, which
00:20:35.820
But if you were, if you were into Christian music, you had to know who Amy Grant was and
00:20:40.460
Michael W. Smith and things like that, Striper, but, and all these great metal bands really
00:20:45.380
helped me because they really sang, most of them sang scripture most of the time.
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And, uh, and I just remember thinking if I could play music, like this music has helped
00:20:57.480
Uh, and of course people got to remember this is before the internet.
00:21:12.140
Like in that film, I remember, um, I remember getting choked up at the beginning because the,
00:21:19.860
So the, who the film was about when he's a kid, he goes to camp and he meets who becomes
00:21:25.340
his wife and she gives him a cassette tape of Amy Grant and it's called never alone.
00:21:30.320
And I was like, I remember what that, I remember those nights.
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I mean, we had absolutely nothing and you felt like no one knew what you're going.
00:21:39.420
How can anybody know what you're going through?
00:21:40.660
Your mom just died and none of your friends have had a death in the family and you feel
00:21:44.820
so absolutely alone and you don't know how to talk about it and you don't want to talk
00:21:51.900
And if your friends ask you about it, you're like, I don't know if I'm up for this, but
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if they don't ask you about it, you're like, how come my friends aren't asking me?
00:22:02.500
And, um, Christian music was really, really helpful for me.
00:22:06.860
And I thought if I could ever write a song for some other kid that's going through depression,
00:22:14.460
suicidal thoughts, a death, getting bullied at school, I don't know what they're going
00:22:22.440
And so when I was 18 is, I remember I got very serious in my relationship with the Lord
00:22:27.120
when I was 18 and, uh, I really believed it with all my heart.
00:22:36.360
It was hard because on my mom's deathbed, um, my mom had gotten very into like word of
00:22:45.260
So we were Southern Baptist, but she had kind of was looking for that, that miracle,
00:22:51.020
you know, the went, went, she kind of went Kenneth Copeland ish, went to some of those
00:22:57.440
And so for the last three weeks that my mom was alive, I didn't get to get to say bye
00:23:02.340
to her because she didn't want us to lose faith.
00:23:06.140
She was in the hospital, didn't want us to lose faith seeing her like that.
00:23:10.640
And if we came to say bye, that would be an, an admission of, of not having faith,
00:23:17.260
And so, um, and again, I'm not saying that to, I'm never disparaging about my mom.
00:23:23.640
She's the reason I'm walking with the Lord, you know?
00:23:27.480
It's just a, that's a sad piece of this story, you know?
00:23:31.120
Um, but I, I knew in my heart I was supposed to be playing music, but I had been told, um,
00:23:38.200
by people that love me dearly that on my mom's deathbed, you know, she's pumped full of all
00:23:44.260
sorts of, you know, morphine or whatever it is that they give to you when you're in that
00:23:48.500
sort of agony at the end, she was having visions and dreams and whatever.
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And part of those visions were that one of her sons, me, I was going to lead people to
00:24:01.560
I was going to play Christian music and the devil was going to use me to lead people to
00:24:07.900
So that was also kind of over me, you know, it was hanging over me, but I just knew God
00:24:14.980
And I just was like, you know, this is, I'm 18.
00:24:19.760
Are you going to do what God's called you to do?
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I don't know if I'm stretching to say this, but it kind of felt like a, uh, let the dead
00:24:31.300
bury their own, the dead kind of a thing, you know, not that she was dead, but almost
00:24:37.460
I know God's called me to this and, um, I don't believe it was real.
00:24:42.180
I just think there were really godly people that were wrong about something.
00:24:48.800
No, but it's actually, it's really interesting to hear how you kind of, how you started because
00:25:00.480
Of what a lot of people would say, because I don't know, maybe a lot of people would say,
00:25:06.680
They were always playing Michael Jackson or Aerosmith or whatever it was.
00:25:11.840
You had to overcome probably a lot of internal turmoil to say, this is what I'm going to do.
00:25:18.580
And not only did you, it's not that you became Michael W. Smith, you became Skillet.
00:25:24.040
And that is, you know, very different than what your parents may have said that they wanted
00:25:39.740
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Because some people who are just seeing this one music video, who think, oh, this is demonic,
00:26:44.440
whatever, they may not have known that Skillet has been around the block and sharing the gospel
00:26:55.120
I think that was part of what was funny is I was like, I think this is the most pushback
00:27:04.600
I was thinking like, I thought everybody knew who we were by now.
00:27:07.260
That group of people would know to stay away from us.
00:27:15.060
I think a piece of why the story is interesting is that a lot of people in my situation would
00:27:26.860
And so I think even, this isn't what you're asking me, but even going back to a few years
00:27:31.660
ago when I began to be very outspoken against things like progressive Christianity, deconstruction,
00:27:38.760
and some people would start calling me a fundamentalist and I started laughing about it.
00:27:43.900
I think that they would have expected because the music I played because of my tattoos or the
00:27:49.040
way I looked, they'd be like, we would have thought you would have understood.
00:27:52.860
And I'm like, I do understand, but the word of God stands forever.
00:28:02.460
And if you walk away from that, you are in dire straits.
00:28:08.180
You are going down a very, very dangerous path.
00:28:13.620
So I think there's an interesting aspect of this, of, we never would have called it deconstruction,
00:28:19.520
but letting some of those things go to pursue Christ.
00:28:23.540
What does the Bible say about these things, you know?
00:28:25.980
And so how we got started in college, I met a pastor of a reformed charismatic church,
00:28:38.780
Some people listening might be laughing right now.
00:28:41.140
Very reformed, very post-mill dominionist, but also sort of charismatic.
00:28:54.700
So he had, in the 70s and 80s, promoted Petra and DeGarmo and Key and all these early Christian
00:29:05.000
And when I went to college in Memphis, he said, hey, basically, he said, you know what
00:29:11.820
And he goes, I can tell you have a passion for Jesus.
00:29:16.460
He said, I feel like you're someone that in your heart, you want to never, ever compromise
00:29:25.100
And he said, the problem is, is that you don't know how to live for Jesus.
00:29:34.900
I knew in my heart I was not actually living for Jesus, but I didn't know what that meant.
00:29:38.940
So he took me under his wing and he became, you know, we went through, do you remember
00:29:49.680
Experiencing God was one of those early great devotional series.
00:29:54.140
I think he was a Baptist guy, actually, if I remember correctly.
00:29:57.420
But we started going through that together and I, my mind was just blown because I began
00:30:02.520
to understand systematic theology and scripture.
00:30:06.100
He introduced me to people like Luther and Calvin and people like that.
00:30:10.680
And then I realized that really I, I was passionate for Jesus, but I really was not living as a
00:30:17.160
And so it was through that discipleship that he, he said, hey, you know, you can take these
00:30:22.400
principles into your music and you can begin to use that for God.
00:30:35.180
And Corey's dad was a pastor of a church up there that was sort of a sister church to the
00:30:43.340
And so one of my pastors kept saying, hey, I know this, I know this other girl that plays
00:30:55.140
He just thought, oh, I bet you guys would be friends because you both play music, Christian
00:30:59.640
And so she came down and, and, uh, I thought she was really cool.
00:31:03.780
And I said to him later, I said, hey, what do you think about, I don't know, me and, me
00:31:08.620
And he's like, oh, she would never, she would never like you.
00:31:11.840
He's like, she's deep and she's, she's, she's educated.
00:31:23.820
I, you know, uh, but I was like, I think that she, I think she might feel the same way.
00:31:33.800
She's a brilliant person, much deeper than I am much more educated.
00:31:36.680
By that time in my life, I'd only read probably three or four books ever.
00:31:40.580
You know, I couldn't read at a massive ADHD, so I couldn't read and pay attention.
00:31:44.940
And I was high, way more hyper than I am now, which is hard to believe for people that only
00:31:52.640
And that was in 96 and, um, started playing around town.
00:32:01.340
Never thought it would last this long, but that's, that's the skillet story.
00:32:08.300
So, so next year is, uh, 30 years for skillet, 29 for me and Corey.
00:32:24.700
As we celebrate the gift of life, you have an opportunity to share that same gift with
00:32:30.380
Imagine a young woman facing an unplanned pregnancy, feeling alone, unsure of what to do.
00:32:34.860
So she's searching for hope and that is where pre-born ministries come in.
00:32:39.760
So you've got a young woman and she needs help.
00:32:43.120
If she goes to Planned Parenthood, they're going to tell her, look, there's no way you're
00:32:52.740
They'll say, they'll just remove the pregnancy, remove the pregnancy tissue, the clump of cells.
00:32:58.180
And then she'll be made to feel like it's no big deal.
00:33:02.060
No one is then going to help her with the pain that she feels, the regret and the trauma
00:33:08.080
And of course, nothing can bring back that irreversible decision to kill a baby.
00:33:14.640
Instead, when she walks into pre-born, she's met with love.
00:33:20.180
She's met with a sonogram, with truth about what's going on inside her womb.
00:33:24.240
And then she's given all the tools she needs to make that life affirming baby protecting
00:33:29.220
So partner with pre-born in saving these lives and serving these moms.
00:33:46.080
I was just looking for the tweet that I retweeted and I couldn't find it.
00:33:50.300
It was someone in the midst of all this controversy.
00:33:58.560
I saw one guy said that he went to one of your, I guess maybe you opened for Papa Roach.
00:34:07.420
But if I remember the tweet correctly, that was back then.
00:34:10.480
So a while ago and that you came out and shared the gospel to all of these people, because
00:34:16.640
And so a lot of the people there, maybe had never heard the gospel.
00:34:21.020
But was that the kind of thing that you did a lot, especially early on?
00:34:26.760
So when we toured with Papa Roach, to my knowledge, nobody in the band was saved.
00:34:32.900
Since then, the singer Jacoby is born again and he talks about his faith.
00:34:39.640
And I would have been one along many people who would have had these gospel conversations.
00:34:49.700
You know, that is as Billy Graham always said, the average person here's seven times, here's
00:34:53.680
the gospel seven times before they, the average Christian before they give their life to Christ.
00:34:59.860
But my point is, I only want to say that so people know.
00:35:08.640
Whether they're Christians or not, they were good friends of ours, but Jacoby did get born
00:35:14.600
And also, by the way, sorry, this is, you can tell my ADD kicks in.
00:35:18.720
Sometimes there is a lot of rock stars, I call them rock stars, getting truly born again
00:35:26.920
It is something that, you know, in my 22 years in the secular metal industry, I've seen two
00:35:36.260
And I've got seven, eight, nine friends in the last 12 months who have gotten born again
00:35:41.900
and have begun actually talking about their faith.
00:35:45.140
Are there people that have shared that publicly?
00:35:49.800
Clint from Seven Dust is someone, I mean, Seven Dust is a very iconic metal band, very outspoken
00:36:05.220
I'm not saying it's revival, but it's a move of God happening.
00:36:10.640
And it's becoming a little bit more, people are open to hearing those stories in the rock
00:36:17.860
But yes, Skillet always tried to make it a point to share our faith openly.
00:36:24.260
I sometimes tell people Skillet is the most overtly vocal crossover act of all time.
00:36:35.240
I brag on the power of the Spirit to do incredible things that all we have to do is just be faithful
00:36:41.180
and we take no credit for the working of the Holy Spirit as He's doing whatever it is
00:36:52.700
But we made it a point, if we're going to cross over, we are going to never be ashamed
00:37:00.880
Now, it doesn't mean every time we go and play a show that we're talking about the Roman
00:37:05.060
road and we're laying out that you're a sinner.
00:37:13.500
Do you mind if I preach just a little bit, Allie?
00:37:23.020
Two things I think that some people don't understand what it's like.
00:37:25.940
Number one, I think they don't understand that exactly what it's like to be in a situation
00:37:35.280
where no one, in other words, they don't know what it's like to be at a rock and roll
00:37:41.180
You don't actually have to come out with a full gospel presentation to be light and salt.
00:37:50.340
In fact, it might, in some cases, it sometimes could seem inappropriate.
00:37:54.840
But the point is, is that sometimes it's more powerful.
00:37:58.700
You being just a radical Jesus freak in your life goes an incredibly long way.
00:38:07.240
And I think that the second thing that people don't realize is sometimes the power of the
00:38:16.440
It might be something that, I'm sure you've had these conversations with somebody.
00:38:21.160
Somebody said, Allie, do you remember when you said that one thing, that's what changed
00:38:28.160
Because that thing I said wasn't even that good or deep.
00:38:34.980
And you might be like, actually, I said some really good things to you one time and you
00:38:43.840
And I think that we cheapen the efficacy of the power of the Spirit to do things.
00:38:52.320
And so what I'm trying to say is sometimes what I have seen is things I'm like, oh,
00:39:02.360
Years ago in 2010, when we first had our first radio hit, I remember packing for tour.
00:39:08.980
I was packing and the TV was on like Letterman or somebody was on.
00:39:20.700
And I was like, oh my gosh, it's my song, right?
00:39:23.940
So it was my own, but I literally, I didn't know it.
00:39:28.240
And I was like, oh my gosh, it's my song, Hero.
00:39:32.800
About three years later, we received an email and it was from a couple who both worked in
00:39:45.760
They made pornographies and they were watching the NFL one night.
00:40:02.940
You know, you can find out everything as easily.
00:40:04.840
So they went on chat boards with somebody that is a band, Skillet.
00:40:07.900
They went and they started listening to the song.
00:40:12.360
And one day they're like, I wonder what this song, Hero, is about.
00:40:24.180
They just asked me on a secular radio interview, so who is your hero?
00:40:33.780
He laid his life down for me when I didn't deserve it.
00:40:37.240
I hated him, but he died for me anyhow, and he gave me a brand new heart.
00:40:43.780
And the wife said, maybe I need to go to church.
00:40:51.640
She starts going to church, and she gets born again.
00:40:54.980
Her husband thinks she's a wackadoo, but it's like my wife is not working on the industry
00:41:05.820
And obviously, they quit the industry they were working in.
00:41:10.620
They're in church for three years, and God starts leading them in their hearts to start
00:41:15.960
a ministry to people in the pornography industry, all because of a TV commercial and an interview,
00:41:25.100
which I did not share the gospel, but I was honest to say, Jesus is my hero.
00:41:29.820
He died for me when I hated him, and he gave me a brand new life, a brand new heart, a brand
00:41:51.760
Sometimes all I'll do if we're playing at a metal festival, which we play lots of metal
00:41:55.620
festivals, all that I'll do is I'll just quote a scripture, and that's it.
00:42:01.800
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness does not overcome it.
00:42:05.700
And it just depends on if we think the power of the Holy Spirit is powerful enough to,
00:42:16.900
It's going to accomplish exactly what God sends it out for.
00:42:22.160
I love hearing stories like that, the ripple effect that seems so amazing to us.
00:42:27.660
And when you think about it, that you are aware of that, but how many more examples of
00:42:34.400
that are you not aware of, that you won't know of until you get to the other side of
00:42:38.440
glory, and maybe something that you are indirectly a part of, and that is true in the life of every
00:42:44.660
Or what a gift it is when we do hear someone's testimony, like we might get a message, or
00:42:49.860
I might hear, a guest that you had on in 2023, I happened to listen to it, it reminded me of
00:42:56.800
this, and all this stuff, and God is so good to show us that.
00:43:00.620
But when it seems like He's doing one of those things, He's doing 10 million of those things.
00:43:08.860
Like, if people listening don't know my mom, they'll never meet my mom.
00:43:20.620
Everybody has a job to do, and you're not going to be aware of the seeds you're throwing
00:43:26.840
So everybody listening, you need to go and throw those seeds out.
00:43:35.700
Because it's just as easy as somebody that's working that refuses to pad their numbers.
00:43:47.380
You could be making more money if you are willing to X, Y, or Z.
00:43:51.380
And the truth is, everybody's kind of doing it.
00:43:58.040
That kind of life speaks so much about the power of the gospel.
00:44:03.940
And there's so many excuses in every industry, but certainly when there's any level of fame
00:44:09.580
or any level of money on the table, the temptation is always really strong for people.
00:44:18.160
Sure, you're a Christian, but this is how we do things.
00:44:27.360
And I think we also have to be comfortable as Christians that, okay, we do the right thing.
00:44:33.260
That does not guarantee that it's going to work out well in a material or earthly way for us.
00:44:39.400
It's not, you know, necessarily a movie where the good guy wins in the short term.
00:44:46.700
You know, and we just have to be comfortable to count the cost and say, I'm going to do what God has called me to
00:44:51.080
me to anyway, and he's going to use this for eternal glory, but it might feel like we're losing.
00:44:59.580
I wouldn't even mind mentioning this because one of the first times I was on with you years ago in 2020, I think.
00:45:09.000
I was so thrilled to be on your show, and you had asked me about the prosperity gospel all the way back then.
00:45:14.500
And at the time, I didn't fully know what the prosperity gospel was, but I did have people that were involved in, I knew lots of people involved in Word of Faith.
00:45:24.200
So I've not been in any Word of Faith churches, but I do know a lot of people like that.
00:45:29.220
But this is where I would say now I would delineate on the prosperity gospel, where I think they get it wrong, which is what you're saying.
00:45:38.420
What God is guaranteeing you is that if you obey his commandments, you will be blessed.
00:45:45.200
He's not guaranteeing you that blessing looks like riches.
00:45:50.720
So as you just said, well, I could be doing these things in my business, and we could make more money, and everybody's really doing it.
00:45:57.940
And so you're saying, I'm going to do it God's way.
00:46:02.360
But just because I'm doing it God's way doesn't mean that now I'm going to be even richer than all those people.
00:46:09.160
But what it means is that by keeping God's laws, his covenant law, covenant law keeping, always leads to covenant blessing, right?
00:46:24.780
You are going to be blessed, but we give it to the sovereignty of God to say, hey, you choose what that blessing is going to look like.
00:46:32.260
It might be blessing that I can go to bed at night in peace and that my kids can be raised in a home where they go, my dad and mom never compromised.
00:46:42.640
They cared about pleasing God, want to be a God pleaser, not a man pleaser.
00:46:47.040
Tell me, every parent listening right now, tell me, would you rather trade all the money in the world for that kind of testimony for your kids to see, oh, my parents would not lie and cheat because the gospel is too sweet to them?
00:47:04.940
And yes, you would give up that extra money in a heartbeat.
00:47:09.700
And the extra money probably isn't even that much anyway.
00:47:12.080
Like sometimes you look back on it, you know, sometimes it's really dark, but you think like Judas, he's like for 30 pieces, like just 30.
00:47:21.620
He probably didn't even live long enough to spend it.
00:47:29.280
You know, we all end up selling ourselves short for something so stupid.
00:47:34.100
And at the end of the day, you're like, it wasn't even worth it compared to the greatness of the riches and glory of knowing Christ.
00:47:42.180
So I would just encourage people, man, never compromise those things.
00:47:46.860
What the world has to offer, even if it's a ginormous amount, it's worth nothing in the end.
00:48:00.680
Another quick pause to tell you about Carly Jean Los Angeles.
00:48:05.360
I've been wearing CJLA clothes for a long time.
00:48:08.760
And I love that they're a capsule clothing company.
00:48:11.720
So you can buy six really nice pieces, mix and match them throughout the year, throughout different seasons of your life.
00:48:18.700
And this is a way to simplify your closet and really feel beautiful.
00:48:23.200
It's classic stuff that you can still wear in five years.
00:48:27.520
Plus, Carly and her family, they're strong Christians.
00:48:32.440
And I'm so thankful for their partnership over the years.
00:48:35.040
And I love, love CJLA clothes, especially their jeans.
00:48:50.740
Do you think that any of this conversation has to do with why we talked about deconstructing?
00:48:55.560
There's a lot of people in the music industry, Christian music industry, who, you know, sinners like everyone else.
00:49:02.020
But it seems like, you know, we look up to these people as disciples in some way.
00:49:07.400
They feel to us, it's like, okay, they've got their theology intact.
00:49:15.220
And when we hear them say, well, I don't believe that anymore.
00:49:18.980
Or actually, while I was singing that, I was doing this opposite sinful thing over there.
00:49:23.880
It almost feels like a pastor betrayed, you know?
00:49:28.400
And I know Satan has it out for them, probably for that reason.
00:49:32.100
But like, what's your take as an insider on why that happens?
00:49:44.220
It does feel like a pastor, even if you don't know them, right?
00:49:49.500
So there are people in this afternoon, I'm like, I never even knew that person.
00:50:00.180
I don't want to go down a path that you're not asking.
00:50:03.380
But I do think that we should at least consider why music is so powerful.
00:50:12.580
This is an entirely philosophical and theological conversation.
00:50:21.140
But from the beginning of the history of civilization, you see people groups using music for religious
00:50:31.600
It's actually only been the last few hundred years that we have this separation between
00:50:40.420
It was always to do with worship, either to pagan gods or to Yahweh or what have you,
00:50:54.840
They sang to memorize theology and things like that, right?
00:50:58.820
And to tell their stories, which is really beautiful.
00:51:01.800
If you think about it, we have a story in the Old Testament that is probably most all
00:51:06.940
Christian musicians' favorite, you know, favorite story, but it's powerful.
00:51:15.420
Demons that God sent, by the way, I'll let you figure that one out, according to the Bible.
00:51:20.500
So, tormented by demons, and he says to his writing guys, like, I'm tormented by demons.
00:51:26.420
I need to get a skillful musician to come and play so these demons leave me.
00:51:30.660
And they call, he said, well, I've actually heard of a, there's a young boy, teenager
00:51:36.080
probably, young teenager named David, and he's a really good musician.
00:51:41.000
And he's handsome, he's a man's man, but he's also a really good musician.
00:51:52.580
And he's such a, he's a type of Christ as well.
00:52:02.900
And I don't even know, I'm not going to even go down the philosophy of what this means.
00:52:06.200
What we know for sure is that music has an eternal aspect to it.
00:52:12.340
Eternity past, music, angels singing, creatures, we don't know.
00:52:19.600
You know, people say, well, you can't take it with you.
00:52:22.840
Not literally, but it's always going to be here.
00:52:25.880
There's something so very powerful about music that is leading worship.
00:52:31.360
And even if you deny Christ, you're leading worship, you're just leading false worship.
00:52:45.340
It's like, one great rock show can change the world.
00:52:48.720
My brother always makes fun of me because I say, that's actually true.
00:52:55.560
And I'm not getting into weird spiritual warfare here.
00:53:00.100
But I do believe that that happened in the Bible.
00:53:03.360
And so I do believe there is an angelic slash demonic element that takes place with music.
00:53:10.740
So therefore, when we see these people that proclaim these songs about Christ that God did use, that was real.
00:53:18.700
Part of what happens when we see them leave the faith is we start going, was none of this real to begin with?
00:53:23.840
Because God used that song to bring me to the faith or to make my faith more secure or what have you.
00:53:38.420
Some of it is, A, a lot of musicians are on the road all the time, so they don't go to church.
00:53:43.720
And that's something that we have always been a part of a church.
00:53:46.980
And we actually kind of made it to where, in a certain way, we saw it as we were being sent out.
00:54:01.820
You still speak into my life as a shepherd, even though I'm not around a whole lot.
00:54:14.100
We're at our small group meetings or whatever it is that we're doing.
00:54:17.020
A lot of Christian musicians aren't a part of a church.
00:54:19.480
And I always tell them, like, you're not going to last long.
00:54:23.720
I always encourage you, you've got to get in a church.
00:54:26.100
Or if they are in a church, they're in a church in a way that sometimes church leaders would never come to them and say,
00:54:35.200
I don't know, imagine you had Michael W. Smith in your church.
00:54:37.420
You go to Michael W. Smith and you challenge him something on his life.
00:54:41.060
You know, people might be intimidated to do that.
00:54:49.480
Or, and I really hate to say this, but we're all adults here.
00:54:55.420
Or maybe some of them are bringing so much money into the church, pastor doesn't want to make them mad.
00:55:03.320
I hate saying that, but I've seen too much and I can never go back again.
00:55:07.740
It's like, oh, God, you know, that scripture in Ecclesiastes, it says, with knowledge comes suffering.
00:55:14.580
That's kind of like, this is one of those moments.
00:55:19.640
And the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
00:55:27.120
Also, the entertainment industry is just, it just tends to be liberal, as everybody knows.
00:55:39.480
And that's just, all that kind of goes together.
00:55:42.780
Also, with a lot of musicians, let's just be honest, a lot of musicians are feelings based.
00:55:53.900
And I think that's probably what makes us good at our craft, probably.
00:56:01.380
You know, if you go and see, I went to see Tommy Prophet's, what's it called?
00:56:14.120
And you've got all these amazing, I mean, these singers are unreal.
00:56:24.860
They wouldn't be able to sing the way they sing.
00:56:33.980
You probably didn't understand doctrine that well to begin with.
00:56:37.740
You started off probably with a good heart to tell people about Jesus.
00:56:41.160
But that begins to be a recipe for compromise, you know?
00:56:54.540
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Okay, where can people go to download Oh Come, Oh Come, Emanuel and your Christmas stuff?
00:58:09.260
And I need to tell you this story because you're going to love it.
00:58:13.040
Go to Spotify or Apple Music, Skillet, Oh Come, Oh Come, Emanuel.
00:58:23.640
My favorite response, you should go check it out.
00:58:29.940
You know those, you've seen things on YouTube when people do reaction videos.
00:58:35.200
There was one, I think that her handle was called Former Worship Pastor or Former Worship Leader.
00:58:43.100
I don't know her personally, never knew anything about her.
00:58:45.120
I got this, I think that she's like a deconstructed worship leader and is no longer, she'd probably no longer say she's a Christian, but she's still spiritual and she talks about things.
00:59:01.540
It's my favorite one I saw because she's watching the video and through the video, she's getting more and more emotional.
00:59:11.460
And she says, she's like, if anything could bring me back to the faith I used to have, it would be something like this.
00:59:20.640
Because it speaks to something that all of us recognize, and I'm tying this into why people had a problem with the music.
00:59:30.580
They have a problem with our version because it gets so heavy, and I'm screaming, really.
00:59:42.600
The reason we did that is because O Come, O Come, Emmanuel is an Advent song.
00:59:48.220
It is a song singing about the longing for the Savior, the Messiah, that is going to take away the sins of the world.
01:00:02.900
And so, of course, this is singing about the first Advent, but there's also this already-not-yet aspect that happened in theology.
01:00:11.100
But we're also longing, come quickly, Lord Jesus, for the second Advent.
01:00:19.300
You meet these kids with cancer, and you meet parents who are struggling.
01:00:26.120
I just met someone like this about four weeks ago on the road.
01:00:28.960
We did one of those wonderful make-a-wish things when, like, the kids, their wish is to see Skillet, and they bring them out.
01:00:35.980
And we meet them, and they're like, yeah, I've had 23 surgeries.
01:00:43.160
And you meet these parents, and the world is not as we want it to be.
01:00:49.000
And we are longing for that day when every tear is wiped away, you know?
01:00:53.940
So that is why this song gets really heavy, like it does, because this is a dichotomy we're singing about.
01:01:02.900
The reason I'm telling you this is because most of the song is piano and keyboards, which is recorded on computers.
01:01:09.980
The second half is guitars and drums, which have to be recorded in a studio.
01:01:16.900
Day one of recording guitars in the studio, the heavy part, the part where we're crying out that the world isn't as it should be,
01:01:26.080
I get a phone call that Charlie Kirk has just been shot.
01:01:30.120
While we're recording, the very thing we are singing about, and I told Cora, I'm like, you're not going to believe this.
01:01:43.620
This, like, this is exactly what we're talking about.
01:01:50.840
And it's one of those things that I don't think I'll ever be able to watch the video or hear the song without remembering.
01:02:05.220
And people can see on YouTube, if you want to follow us on socials, it's Skillet Music.
01:02:14.300
And maybe even for some of the people that wouldn't like this kind of music, maybe now that you know the story, you'll understand it when you hear it.
01:02:23.920
I haven't really said it in hardly any interviews because it just hadn't come up.
01:02:33.080
But for those of us who get it and have struggled with that, like, how can, then you have the other.
01:02:45.580
I mean, all that stuff all hits you at once and we're just crying out, like, Jesus, just come quickly.
01:02:57.380
Thank the Lord for how faithful He is and just how He's used you and uses us all in these, you know, unseen and unsung moments of obedience that all believers are called to, that He empowers us to do in different ways.
01:03:13.660
Sometimes it's with a microphone, sometimes it's not.
01:03:16.140
But God truly is working all things together for the good of those who love Him, using all of our different skills and passions.
01:03:24.280
And I just love seeing this in you and you and Corey are amazing.
01:03:28.500
Corey was at Share the Eros with her friends and she's just awesome and so sweet and y'all are just the best.
01:03:34.200
So thank you so much for taking the time to come on.