Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1285 ｜ Muslims Are Dreaming of Jesus. Missionary Reveals Miraculous Conversions ｜ Tom Doyle

00:00:00.860 Muslims in the Middle East are having dreams and visions of Jesus, and many of them are

00:00:06.500 hearing the gospel and coming to Christ.

00:00:08.620 The headlines aren't covering this, but our guest today, Tom Doyle, has been sharing the

00:00:14.180 gospel in Gaza, in other countries in the Middle East for years, and the stories of

00:00:20.600 Muslims both here in America and abroad becoming Christians, they're amazing and so encouraging.

00:00:27.480 He's also got some tools and lessons for us for how we can share the gospel with our

00:00:32.640 Muslim neighbors.

00:00:34.180 This is an incredible and edifying episode that I know you are going to love.

00:00:38.580 This episode is brought to you by the Dwell Bible app.

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00:01:15.660 Tom, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:18.380 Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

00:01:20.160 Yeah, so I'm Tom Doyle with Uncharted Ministries and privileged to write books on what's really

00:01:27.300 happening in the Middle East behind the news.

00:01:30.140 And so I think we see the terrorism, we see the bloodshed, we see the Islamic takeovers 1.00

00:01:35.740 of countries, but that doesn't nullify the gospel.

00:01:39.620 And Jesus said, upon this rock, I will build my church and the gates of hell will bust through

00:01:44.360 it.

00:01:44.540 You know, we'll bust through the gates of hell. 0.91

00:01:45.960 And that's what's happening in places like Tehran and Gaza City and Syria.

00:01:51.960 Muslims are coming to faith in Christ.

00:01:53.680 And so that's the story that nobody gets to hear.

00:01:56.260 So we get to talk about that today.

00:01:58.420 I want to hear it.

00:01:59.200 So tell us what is really going on in the Middle East.

00:02:02.520 Well, I think, you know, I think October 7th was a day like, well, 1979 was a big year.

00:02:09.180 If you look at 1979, the Ayatollah took over Iran.

00:02:12.340 Saddam Hussein comes into power in Iraq, Russia invades Afghanistan, Egypt and Israel sign 0.84

00:02:19.560 a peace treaty, and Anwar Sadat gets killed in the midst of it.

00:02:24.400 But there's always a spiritual answer that happens, a spiritual solution.

00:02:28.560 That was the year the Campus Crusade released the Jesus film.

00:02:32.000 And that flooded the Middle East. 0.96

00:02:33.580 It flooded the rest of the world.

00:02:34.780 But in our lifetime, much later, October 7th, 2023, the horrible attack from Hamas on Israel.

00:02:43.120 And it felt like Israel got about two hours of sympathy.

00:02:48.260 And then all of a sudden it turned and anti-Semitism just came popping up out of the soil.

00:02:55.320 It was all over the place.

00:02:56.760 People were not hiding it.

00:02:58.260 And I remember the next week there was a march at UCLA, and they're going down the street

00:03:05.480 yelling, Jew, Jew, you can't hide. 0.97

00:03:07.740 We'll get you with genocide. 0.99

00:03:09.860 I mean, I was shocked.

00:03:11.480 Nobody gets called in to the dean's office for that.

00:03:15.900 And it was like the radicals became empowered, started seeing things in Europe, started seeing

00:03:21.240 things in the United States, six countries going after Israel.

00:03:25.120 And so the game was on, and Israel defended herself.

00:03:29.680 But in the midst of it, there are Muslims in all those surrounding countries that are

00:03:35.740 frustrated with endless wars, tribalism, a religion that constricts.

00:03:42.500 I mean, for Sharia law, for women, I mean, it's horrible what they have to go through. 0.72

00:03:48.280 And so the word that we hear in the Middle East among young people is hopelessness.

00:03:53.160 But all of a sudden, Jesus comes in with this hope and changes everything.

00:03:59.000 So right now we're seeing, really in the last 10 years, more Muslims have come to faith in

00:04:04.600 Christ than in 1,400 years of Islam. 0.97

00:04:08.360 Wow.

00:04:09.000 I mean, that's shocking.

00:04:10.300 So it's not going to be on the news.

00:04:11.700 I don't even think they would know how to spin that, really, how they would tell that.

00:04:16.880 But it's happening.

00:04:17.880 So there's an exodus, less than 30% of the population in Iran practices Islam.

00:04:25.260 But yet they're the big bully in the Middle East. 1.00

00:04:27.120 So that's what we focus on.

00:04:28.620 But it's the fastest growing church per capita in the world.

00:04:31.340 So there's good signs.

00:04:33.700 And the body of Christ is moving forward.

00:04:35.800 And it's pretty exciting to see.

00:04:37.780 Yeah.

00:04:38.020 And your ministry is on the ground in the Middle East,

00:04:40.980 chairing the gospel and equipping churches.

00:04:42.780 What does that look like?

00:04:43.560 So we have national leaders in all the countries around Israel and then in Pakistan and people

00:04:50.120 we work with in Iran and so many things happening.

00:04:53.640 I mean, people wouldn't know this, but in the last year, a million Bibles got into Iran.

00:04:58.840 The Iranian church is fast growing.

00:05:01.180 They couldn't get Bibles.

00:05:02.460 And so people that were willing to risk were taking them in in trucks and things were happening

00:05:09.540 inside the country where they were being run off.

00:05:11.960 And so it's discipling the new believers and really preparing them for persecution. 0.96

00:05:18.940 Because if you live in Gaza and your name is Mohammed and you come to faith in Christ 0.87

00:05:23.880 and you tell one person, you're going to be persecuted.

00:05:28.260 And so that's what's exciting about this young church is that they're willing to suffer

00:05:36.400 and they're willing to count the cost.

00:05:38.700 So there are so many stories that we get.

00:05:41.380 And now we're getting them almost daily from around the world of dramatic salvation stories

00:05:47.320 in the midst of places where they could be killed for sharing it with one person.

00:05:52.980 So it's building up the secret church, the underground church.

00:05:56.180 We used to say the underground church that kind of took on a bad meeting with the underground

00:06:00.300 in Gaza with the tunnels and all that.

00:06:03.020 So the secret church is emerging throughout the Middle East. 0.57

00:06:06.300 Can you tell us one of those stories of a dramatic conversion?

00:06:10.260 Yeah.

00:06:11.100 Oh my gosh.

00:06:13.180 There was a young man in Gaza.

00:06:15.780 We got to know his wife.

00:06:18.260 Well, her name is Akram. 0.96

00:06:20.720 And so 20 years ago, we were in the Gaza Strip and in a refugee camp.

00:06:25.600 And we're just doing food, passing out food.

00:06:28.280 And you have to go through Hamas to get in the refugee camp.

00:06:31.420 And so we do that.

00:06:32.580 And we're just giving out food and meeting people.

00:06:34.300 And there's a young lady named Akram.

00:06:36.040 So we asked her, okay, Akram, what's your goal in life?

00:06:41.300 She's 20 years old.

00:06:42.560 She went to Gaza University.

00:06:43.840 And she said, well, I think my goal in life is to get a job, graduate from college, get

00:06:48.580 a job, and then one day have enough money to buy a laptop computer.

00:06:53.620 That was it.

00:06:54.720 I mean, that was the ceiling.

00:06:55.820 And I thought, oh my gosh, I just happened to tell that story in a church in Atlanta.

00:07:00.820 And a guy came up afterwards and said, I brought a brand new Toshiba last night.

00:07:04.600 I'm giving it to Akram.

00:07:06.280 And I said, no, I wasn't asking.

00:07:07.980 He goes, no, no, no, no, we're doing this.

00:07:10.280 And so nine months later, my wife, Joanne, and I go back and we find the refugee camp.

00:07:15.480 And Allie, Beth, there's no street signs.

00:07:18.260 There's dead animals.

00:07:20.100 It's just awful.

00:07:21.080 But we find Akram's place.

00:07:22.600 And we said, Akram, remember that dream you had?

00:07:25.640 And she said, yeah.

00:07:27.120 And we said, well, Jesus made it happen.

00:07:30.320 And Joanne takes out a brand new computer.

00:07:33.220 And it was like giving someone the keys to a brand new car.

00:07:36.740 She was just, I can't believe it.

00:07:39.520 So, and we didn't want to miss this opportunity.

00:07:41.940 We'd loaded every Christian program in Arabic on that computer, Bible versions, worship,

00:07:48.140 everything.

00:07:48.600 Within months, she comes to faith in Christ gloriously.

00:07:52.340 Well, we write her story in one of the books we've written.

00:07:54.980 But she says, when you write my story, would you tell the people to pray for my husband?

00:07:59.120 His name is Mohammed.

00:08:00.640 And he's just not a good man.

00:08:03.160 He's never given me a present.

00:08:05.080 He's never on our wedding, birthday, anniversary, nothing.

00:08:09.040 He treats me terrible.

00:08:10.720 So we did.

00:08:11.320 People right in the middle of the book would say, hey, stop, pray for Mohammed now.

00:08:14.540 Which when you say that, pray for Mohammed in the Gaza Strip. 0.89

00:08:17.220 That's like praying for half of the Gaza Strip, right?

00:08:20.120 Everybody's named Mohammed.

00:08:21.780 And so people are praying.

00:08:23.920 And dramatically, he calls one day on WhatsApp, and he is ready to meet Jesus.

00:08:30.080 His life changed.

00:08:31.500 Ali Beth, you just can't believe where he was and what happened after that.

00:08:36.780 He started reading the Bible.

00:08:38.360 He started sharing his faith.

00:08:40.060 He would send me Bible texts.

00:08:41.700 I couldn't believe the depths of his Bible texts.

00:08:44.600 I said to him one day, Mohammed, where are you getting these texts on the internet?

00:08:49.760 He said, well, I write them.

00:08:51.620 Tom, I write them.

00:08:52.340 And I said, wow, you have a passion for Jesus.

00:08:56.240 I'm just amazed.

00:08:57.720 And he said, well, I hang out with my four best friends every day.

00:09:00.920 And I said, who are they?

00:09:02.400 I thought it was some that he'd led to faith in Christ.

00:09:04.200 He said, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

00:09:05.740 I'm in the Word.

00:09:06.840 I'm studying the Bible.

00:09:07.900 And so he started growing, sending these texts.

00:09:12.460 October 7th happens.

00:09:14.540 Israel gets invaded.

00:09:16.700 And then Hamas comes back. 0.63

00:09:18.540 They've got all the captives.

00:09:20.000 And he is texting, saying, I can't believe they're doing this.

00:09:24.920 No human being should be forced to endure this.

00:09:28.760 Hamas is making a stand in the front. 0.62

00:09:30.720 They want us to cheer, but I'm crying.

00:09:32.900 I'm crying because this should never happen.

00:09:35.340 And so he started texting, tell the Israeli soldiers they will have them in the city below 0.60

00:09:42.080 the city.

00:09:43.460 So we knew about a tunnel here and there, being in Gaza several times.

00:09:47.700 We didn't know it was bigger than the subway system in London.

00:09:52.020 And so he's sending out messages to believers in Israel, and they're messaging back, we want

00:09:58.620 to help the Palestinians.

00:09:59.680 We don't want to hurt them.

00:10:00.920 And just going back and forth.

00:10:03.280 That is true reconciliation.

00:10:04.800 Only the UN can't pull that off.

00:10:07.480 That's only Jesus can do that.

00:10:09.820 So the life change that we see with Muslims is, we know that's what Jesus said would happen, 1.00

00:10:17.760 but to see it, it just warms your heart.

00:10:20.280 Because we realize, okay, yeah, there is Christian persecution, but we're not out there just getting

00:10:25.360 creamed.

00:10:26.180 The body of Christ is advancing.

00:10:29.060 Muslims are coming to faith in Christ, and they're willing to die for their faith. 1.00

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00:11:45.260 What do Muslims believe about Jesus? 0.87

00:11:48.620 What does the Quran teach about Jesus?

00:11:50.580 So they believe, first of all, that the Bible's corrupted, that it's been changed.

00:11:55.000 They believe that Jesus is not the Son of God.

00:11:57.900 They believe that he did not die on the cross at the last minute.

00:12:01.460 The body was switched.

00:12:02.840 Some believe that it was Judas.

00:12:05.100 And so they have all kinds of convoluted ideas.

00:12:08.800 But yet, on the other hand, there's some very good verses in the Quran about Jesus that

00:12:14.140 talk about him with glowing terms more than Muhammad talks about anybody in the Quran.

00:12:20.700 So there's kind of a mixed bag.

00:12:23.240 And as you talk with Muslims, if you quote from the Quran, they will be shocked at the good 1.00

00:12:29.200 words about Jesus.

00:12:30.560 And of course, a part of all of that, why they would be shocked is the estimate is like

00:12:37.000 60% of all Muslims globally never read the Quran.

00:12:40.860 They don't know what's in it.

00:12:42.500 They hear things from the Imam, but they don't read it.

00:12:46.060 It's just, you know, duty and rules and culture and, you know, everything Ramadan. 0.99

00:12:52.020 They got to, you know, be a part of that.

00:12:53.660 So many of them don't know anything.

00:12:56.620 And it's a religion that swept that area with death or conversion or to pay a tax for protection. 0.95

00:13:05.880 And so I think these were flimsy conversions.

00:13:10.020 It was just to save their neck.

00:13:12.020 Those who converted to Islam.

00:13:13.820 Yeah.

00:13:14.100 And generations later, many are starting to think outside the box, like, wait a minute,

00:13:19.700 I'm not sure I even believe this.

00:13:22.880 So anyway, in the worst, but we always say the worst places to be a believer are really 0.96

00:13:29.000 the best places because they're just complete faith in Christ.

00:13:33.840 Trust him alone for everything.

00:13:35.700 Yeah.

00:13:36.260 I imagine that not everyone is receptive to the message of the gospel.

00:13:40.700 Have you felt hostility from some Muslims?

00:13:43.820 Obviously, this is blasphemy and to leave is apostasy and you can be put to death under 0.96

00:13:51.460 Sharia for that, for Muslims especially.

00:13:55.300 But what has that been like for you?

00:13:57.580 Well, you know, we've gotten thrown off the Temple Mount up in Jerusalem a couple of times

00:14:02.280 from imams up there as we were sharing things about the Dome of the Rock.

00:14:06.280 We were going through the West Bank with the cross. 0.94

00:14:09.440 Arthur, bless it, took a cross into every country in the world.

00:14:12.980 He's now with the Lord.

00:14:14.040 So we were going through Jericho.

00:14:15.400 It's in the West Bank. 0.96

00:14:17.060 Very radical Muslims, some bad cell groups there, terrorists. 0.97

00:14:21.840 Anyway, but we were going through with the cross. 0.94

00:14:23.900 You could not believe it, the people that wanted to come up and touch the cross and ask questions.

00:14:29.040 I mean, they were all Muslims.

00:14:31.420 But there was one guy I could see looking out a shop at me and it looked like he had steam

00:14:36.220 coming out of his ears and I thought, he's going to be coming after me.

00:14:40.040 So he does.

00:14:41.540 And he just makes a beeline for me.

00:14:44.040 And he goes, Mr. Christian, I'll convert to Christianity if you tell me this. 0.68

00:14:51.760 His name was Nimmer.

00:14:54.080 If Jesus was God, why didn't he come down off that cross?

00:14:58.740 So his thinking, Elibeth, is this.

00:15:00.760 He's thinking of Muhammad on the cross.

00:15:03.120 If Muhammad's on the cross, his followers would have taken him off.

00:15:06.620 They would have caused the war, captured everybody, killed him. 0.95

00:15:10.040 That's all he can think through.

00:15:11.880 And I said, I said, oh, Nimmer, you know what?

00:15:14.460 That's a really good question.

00:15:15.780 It's an easy one, too.

00:15:17.460 And he said, it's easy.

00:15:18.940 And I said, yeah, the reason he didn't come off the cross is because he didn't want to

00:15:22.800 come off the cross.

00:15:24.040 I have sin in my life.

00:15:25.960 And I'm sure you've done a few bad things yourself.

00:15:28.400 And he, well, and so he stayed there on purpose.

00:15:31.860 Jesus said, no one takes my life.

00:15:34.260 I lay it down voluntarily.

00:15:35.820 So that's why he did it for you and for me.

00:15:38.460 Well, he stormed off.

00:15:39.620 He didn't like the truth.

00:15:41.680 But you do see that.

00:15:43.320 And of course, there's the threats.

00:15:45.680 And our team, our uncharted team in Syria, they actually, there were 10 leaders, and it

00:15:53.240 was in the midst of the war.

00:15:54.540 And the national leader told the young team, it's getting worse, and they were already hanging

00:16:02.080 Christians on cross as ISIS was doing that.

00:16:05.000 Let's take a week and pray and fast.

00:16:07.060 If you want to stay here with your family, okay, I'm staying.

00:16:10.820 But if you need to get out to Lebanon or try to immigrate to the States, we understand 1.00

00:16:14.980 that.

00:16:15.840 But let's pray in a week later, see what happens.

00:16:18.400 So he came back a week later, and he said, as he was putting his hand on the doorknob in

00:16:23.360 that room that was under a house, he thought, is anyone going to be in there?

00:16:28.080 And he opened the door, and it wasn't the 10 men.

00:16:31.520 They'd recruited 15 more.

00:16:33.620 Wow.

00:16:34.340 And they said, we're staying, and we're prepared to die for Jesus.

00:16:38.840 And so they went out, because they are former Muslims, former Alawites, like Bashar Assad 1.00

00:16:44.880 was an Alawite, former Druze.

00:16:46.660 They went out and bought a piece of land so they can bury each other when they die for

00:16:52.080 Jesus.

00:16:53.040 And through all this ISIS and now HDS taking over, which is ISIS rebranded, nobody's been

00:17:01.440 killed.

00:17:02.840 Nobody's been killed.

00:17:03.960 They should have been.

00:17:04.860 They've been chased by Hamas.

00:17:06.200 They've been interrogated.

00:17:07.340 They've been thrown in jail.

00:17:09.360 Everybody's alive.

00:17:10.320 So they will send correspondences to us.

00:17:12.480 And this is happening.

00:17:14.040 This many people got saved.

00:17:15.900 And oh, and by the way, the graveyard's still empty.

00:17:18.580 So wow.

00:17:19.960 They're heroes of the faith.

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00:18:20.960 Tell me how you started Uncharted.

00:18:23.660 Like, how did God place this mission on your heart?

00:18:26.440 Yeah.

00:18:27.220 So we started doing trips to Israel in 95.

00:18:30.780 I went to Dallas Seminary and we did a trip and I just was hooked and so interested in

00:18:36.640 the Bible and history and Jewish roots and all that, really not tracking with the Muslims 1.00

00:18:41.380 whatsoever.

00:18:42.460 And I'm a pastor.

00:18:43.620 My wife, Joanne, and I, we have six kids and 17 grandkids now.

00:18:47.600 That's amazing.

00:18:48.400 Praise God.

00:18:49.020 I know.

00:18:49.400 What a blessing.

00:18:49.900 I know.

00:18:50.300 It's a tribe.

00:18:51.380 And so, anyway, not tracking at all with that.

00:18:55.660 And one day I had to get my car fixed in Denver.

00:18:59.000 We lived in the Colorado Springs area.

00:19:00.640 So I'm up there.

00:19:01.780 It's, I don't know, it's before the year 2000 and the car wasn't ready.

00:19:06.180 Joanne drops me off and then the mechanic says, oh, it's not ready.

00:19:08.740 Can you go to this place across the street?

00:19:10.040 We'll pay for your lunch.

00:19:11.260 And it's a Middle East restaurant.

00:19:12.500 So I go in and I should say this.

00:19:15.160 My dad was an FBI agent, organized crime specialist.

00:19:18.640 Oh, interesting.

00:19:19.100 So I grew up in Las Vegas, born in Chicago, Mafia. 0.96

00:19:22.600 We were around Mafia. 0.67

00:19:23.660 I went to Catholic school, third grade in Las Vegas.

00:19:26.860 This is why you're not intimidated by anyone.

00:19:28.280 Yeah, part of it.

00:19:29.800 Yeah.

00:19:29.980 The only kid that didn't have an Italian last name, Parisi, Serino, Costello, all that.

00:19:34.780 Anyway, so I'm up in Denver and, okay, go to this little place across the street.

00:19:40.380 It's a Middle East restaurant.

00:19:41.320 Well, I like falafels.

00:19:42.600 I get a falafel and a Diet Pepsi.

00:19:44.640 I'm sitting there.

00:19:45.900 Two guys walk in and they're closer than you are.

00:19:48.480 A little table, black leather jackets, closely cropped beards, Arabs, and there's whispering 1.00

00:19:56.000 in Arabic.

00:19:57.060 And I thought, they're going to do a terrorist act.

00:20:00.420 I mean, I should probably phone this in now.

00:20:02.300 I mean, these guys have the look.

00:20:04.820 Whispering in Arabic and just going back and forth, kind of looking around.

00:20:09.200 And I thought, oh, so obvious. 0.98

00:20:10.400 These guys are terrorists. 0.90

00:20:12.100 I'm an FBI kid. 0.99

00:20:13.040 I know these things.

00:20:13.980 And what year was this?

00:20:14.860 So this would have been like 99.

00:20:16.660 Okay.

00:20:17.280 Okay.

00:20:17.780 So anyway, one of them speaks in English and just looks over at his friend and says,

00:20:23.860 Mahmoud, the Lord is amazing, isn't he?

00:20:27.480 And I just went, that kind of sounds like stuff we say as Christians.

00:20:31.080 That's kind of where they go back to Arabic, they're whispering. 1.00

00:20:33.560 Then finally, the other guy just says, you know what?

00:20:36.960 In English, Mohammed, Jesus is Lord over Syria. 0.93

00:20:42.160 And I just looked at him and I said, are you guys believers?

00:20:46.000 They said, yeah, are you?

00:20:47.780 And I was like, yeah, I used to be.

00:20:50.320 I mean, before I judged you and that and thought you were terrorists.

00:20:54.860 And come on over.

00:20:55.960 And they sat me down and started telling me what was happening in Syria and how Muslims

00:21:01.240 were coming to faith in Christ.

00:21:03.000 I'd never heard this.

00:21:04.660 I didn't even think about it.

00:21:06.300 Sadly, I wasn't praying for it either, sadly.

00:21:12.780 They started telling me, come to our house for dinner.

00:21:15.880 And so I'm calling Joanne, you're not going to believe this story.

00:21:18.160 And I just heard story after story.

00:21:20.980 They were so energized.

00:21:22.380 Brother, it's so wonderful to meet you.

00:21:24.700 And I thought, I've got to find out more about this.

00:21:28.860 So then we end up going on a mission trip into the Gaza Strip.

00:21:32.980 And I will never forget it.

00:21:34.380 It was right after 9-11, two months.

00:21:37.920 So here we are in Gaza City.

00:21:40.480 And immediately, Ali Bet, this covered Muslim woman comes up to me. 1.00

00:21:45.740 You just see her face.

00:21:47.300 And she comes across this parking lot where we're just looking at some things.

00:21:51.260 And she grabs my arm and says, you're from America, aren't you?

00:21:54.980 And I said, well, yeah, I am.

00:21:56.240 She goes, I could tell by the color of your eyes.

00:21:58.640 I said, okay.

00:22:00.100 She goes, did you see on September 11th when the buildings came down and the people in Gaza were cheering?

00:22:07.080 And I said, well, yeah, I did see that.

00:22:09.440 She goes, well, not me.

00:22:10.700 I was crying for those people because they didn't deserve to die.

00:22:15.200 And I'm so sorry.

00:22:16.840 Please forgive our people for cheering on your worst day.

00:22:21.300 She turned on her heel and walked away. 1.00

00:22:23.560 And I thought, there's human beings in the Gaza Strip.

00:22:26.740 I mean, I wasn't expecting this.

00:22:29.080 And so then we had a chance to go that night to meet with the believers in an apartment building filled with Muslims, except this one little apartment. 0.98

00:22:40.860 And they were singing.

00:22:42.340 They were reading the scriptures.

00:22:44.240 They were talking about Muslims that they'd shared the gospel with.

00:22:47.160 And I thought, this is the book of Acts.

00:22:49.960 I mean, this is like chapter 29.

00:22:51.980 You've got to be kidding me.

00:22:52.920 They would be killed for doing what they're just talking about.

00:22:57.640 And so anyway, we launched into missions.

00:23:00.580 And then Uncharted came along in 2017.

00:23:04.080 And I found the truth, which is our video ministry that shows, gives testimonies from Muslims that came to faith in Christ.

00:23:13.260 And so many of them, Allie Beth, were visions and dreams and things that happened.

00:23:19.880 And it's just unreal, some of the stories that you hear.

00:23:24.280 But the acid test is this.

00:23:26.340 They walk away from Islam, and they're willing to die for their faith. 1.00

00:23:29.960 Because people say that all the time.

00:23:31.400 Well, how do you know it's legit?

00:23:33.440 I'm not sure there were a lot of people in the church I pastored that were willing to die for their faith.

00:23:37.640 But they are.

00:23:38.960 That's the acid test.

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00:24:54.440 You mentioned that you had kind of been skeptical of the whole dreams and visions thing.

00:25:01.520 Me too.

00:25:02.300 Yeah.

00:25:02.540 But you say that you've heard from ex-Muslims who were visited by Jesus in their dreams.

00:25:09.320 Can you tell us about that?

00:25:09.940 Yeah.

00:25:10.060 We ended up writing a book about it.

00:25:11.580 And here I'm the guy that didn't believe in it.

00:25:13.800 But I'm sitting in Jerusalem in a Bible study.

00:25:16.460 And there's Jews and Muslims.

00:25:18.640 It's a reconciliation group.

00:25:20.080 They don't hate each other.

00:25:20.940 They love each other, transformed in Christ.

00:25:23.520 So we're going around.

00:25:24.160 Each one is just sharing their name.

00:25:25.880 The guy next to me, his name's Muhammad.

00:25:28.480 And I said, wow, crazy name to have as a follower of Jesus.

00:25:33.100 Were you just dying to get out of Islam and have a relationship with God? 0.97

00:25:38.660 And he said, no.

00:25:40.720 I thought I was right.

00:25:42.540 And you guys were wrong.

00:25:44.280 I said, well, what happened, man?

00:25:45.520 And he said, well, it's simple.

00:25:47.540 Jesus started coming to me every night in dreams for 30 nights in a row.

00:25:53.180 He goes, it's pretty hard to just push that away and say that didn't happen.

00:25:58.440 He would tell me that he loved me.

00:26:00.160 He said, it got to the point I couldn't wait to go to bed at night because I was hoping

00:26:06.160 Jesus would come in a dream and he would come and he would talk with me.

00:26:10.420 And so since then, it's just unbelievable.

00:26:13.180 We estimate that about one out of every three Muslims that comes to faith in Christ has

00:26:18.740 had a dream or a vision of Jesus.

00:26:21.380 It may be half now.

00:26:23.200 There was a team that was in Jordan getting trained from Saudi Arabia on how to do secret

00:26:29.360 church.

00:26:29.980 39 people.

00:26:31.600 They didn't know each other.

00:26:32.700 They were all from different areas.

00:26:33.940 They found out through the internet.

00:26:35.360 They came this conference and the leader asked at the end, how many of you had a dream

00:26:41.360 about Jesus or a vision before he came to faith in Christ?

00:26:44.560 All 39.

00:26:45.680 Wow.

00:26:46.700 So it's happening.

00:26:48.060 It's a revolution.

00:26:49.360 And I just had to lay down this.

00:26:52.040 I was talking with my old professor at Dallas Seminary on Moody Radio and telling him, he

00:26:57.380 said, tell some dream stories.

00:26:59.560 And so I said to Charlie Dyer, here's a story in Iran.

00:27:02.040 Here's another one.

00:27:03.120 He said, you need to write a book about Muslims having dreams about Jesus. 0.99

00:27:06.360 And I said, and it was a foolish statement. 0.98

00:27:08.680 I said, yeah, I'd like to do that. 0.94

00:27:10.940 I don't know what evangelicals would think about it.

00:27:13.140 And he said, you know what?

00:27:14.580 We evangelicals need to get over ourselves.

00:27:17.700 God can do whatever he wants.

00:27:19.720 Over 200 times in the Bible, there were dreams.

00:27:23.320 Maybe he's using that today.

00:27:25.560 Why do you think that Jesus seems to be using dreams as a way to communicate with these people?

00:27:31.840 Well, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen here in the States, but as a pastor of a church,

00:27:36.400 I'm sure you didn't come across as, you know, very many of your congregants who were there

00:27:40.680 because they saw Jesus in a dream.

00:27:42.600 So why do you think that seems to be happening more prevalent there?

00:27:45.760 Yeah.

00:27:46.780 Here's one reason I believe it could have happened.

00:27:49.420 Jesus always met people where they were.

00:27:51.740 I mean, you look at the woman with the issue of blood and she was despised. 0.99

00:27:56.660 And he said, daughter, your faith has healed you.

00:27:59.680 He just met her there.

00:28:00.980 How would he be meeting Muslims through dreams? 1.00

00:28:04.700 That's how Islam started. 1.00

00:28:06.400 Muhammad went into a cave and had a dream.

00:28:09.300 And he says, Jibril, who is supposed to be Gabriel, downloaded the Quran, which we don't

00:28:15.480 believe that's what happened.

00:28:16.680 We believe it was demonic.

00:28:18.220 But so if you're with Muslims anywhere in the Middle East and we say, hey, I said this 1.00

00:28:24.660 crazy dream last night.

00:28:26.400 Hey, let's get some coffee and talk about it.

00:28:28.340 I think most people in America would say, what did you eat last night?

00:28:32.560 Did something disagree with you?

00:28:34.520 So they see it as a viable way that God can communicate truth to them.

00:28:40.280 And also the last week in Ramadan, they have a night.

00:28:46.280 It's called, it's the middle of the last week, it's called the night of power or the night

00:28:50.480 of destiny.

00:28:51.860 And Muslims will cry out, God, if you're there, show me yourself. 1.00

00:28:56.500 Come to me in a dream, in a vision.

00:28:58.980 That's the number one day of the year that Muslims have dreams about Jesus. 1.00

00:29:03.420 Wow.

00:29:03.900 They're crying out to God, and Jesus accommodates that cry and comes to them.

00:29:08.400 Yeah.

00:29:09.400 What about in Muslim communities in the rest of the world?

00:29:12.900 We've seen Islam grow a lot via mass migration in places like Europe, especially the UK, and

00:29:20.840 some of those cities almost, it seems, 100% Muslim.

00:29:25.140 Um, what is happening in those communities or those communities turning to Christ?

00:29:30.360 There, there are many in the, you look at the worst places like Iran, Afghanistan, amazing 1.00

00:29:36.640 things happening with Muslims.

00:29:38.760 We don't see a large scale where all of a sudden Rotterdam in the Netherlands is flipped over

00:29:44.940 and all those Muslims are Christian.

00:29:46.260 We're not seeing that, but there are many, and it's happening all over.

00:29:50.080 Dreams, visions, people sharing the gospel.

00:29:52.700 Christians praying for Muslims that are sick, and all of a sudden they're well, and they 1.00

00:29:59.000 know that they've been praying their whole life. 0.98

00:30:01.060 Nothing's happened.

00:30:02.420 They wonder if God's even there, and then, and then they're healed.

00:30:07.240 So it's pretty good evidence there that something's happening.

00:30:10.640 So there's a big threat.

00:30:13.160 It is systematic in Europe and in America.

00:30:17.780 Um, in Dearborn, Michigan, our national leader was there.

00:30:22.240 And it's, it's like, like me growing up around the mafia in Chicago and Vegas.

00:30:27.020 When you hear the, the name Genovese, you, you know what the family does for their business.

00:30:33.120 Right.

00:30:33.280 And, and so our national leader, Amir Salam was in Dearborn.

00:30:37.120 He started hearing names in restaurants.

00:30:38.760 He's, he said, Tom, these are people that were thrown out of Syria.

00:30:43.120 They were so radical.

00:30:44.500 They kicked him out of Syria.

00:30:46.180 And he said, in the next 10 years, if we don't, if they don't come to faith in Christ, or we

00:30:52.260 don't start deporting some of these radicals, we'll have another 9-11.

00:30:57.240 So it's paramount that we share the gospel, not only for eternity, but for now too.

00:31:04.480 And so we're grateful for people that are willing to, to do that with Muslims.

00:31:08.820 And many times they're just waiting to hear what Christ has for them.

00:31:14.300 And a lot of people, myself included, have fear in that.

00:31:17.640 Yeah.

00:31:17.780 On the one hand, we would love for all of our Muslim neighbors to become Christians, but 0.99

00:31:22.520 we are a little scared to be the ones to bridge the gap because it's not the same as sharing

00:31:29.220 the gospel with the Jewish person or even with most, you know, agnostics. 0.99

00:31:34.220 This is a religion that in its texts say, you know, the infidel has to die. 1.00

00:31:39.100 That doesn't mean that all of our Muslim neighbors are actively practicing that, but that is inherent 1.00

00:31:44.300 in the ideology and it's scary.

00:31:47.520 So what do we do?

00:31:49.820 What does it look like to build those relationships to conquer that fear and to share the gospel

00:31:54.200 effectively?

00:31:55.140 I think the best thing is to make a friendship.

00:31:57.080 It starts one-on-one, you know, we've never seen mass stadium conversions that work.

00:32:03.240 Maybe they do somewhere.

00:32:04.200 We haven't seen it.

00:32:05.200 It's one-on-one.

00:32:06.780 It's, we, we say this at Uncharted, every soul matters.

00:32:10.100 So my wife, Joanne does a seminar for women, how to love Muslims to Christ.

00:32:16.320 And we were in Tyler one day.

00:32:18.620 And so Joanne said, okay, ladies, I'm going to give you an assignment this week when you're 1.00

00:32:22.500 out and there are Muslims in Tyler.

00:32:24.280 If you see one, your job is to go up and meet them and just start a conversation.

00:32:29.140 So like, where are you from?

00:32:31.240 Well, they might say, well, I'm from America.

00:32:33.200 Oh, okay.

00:32:33.640 Well, where's your family originally from?

00:32:35.440 Oh, I'm from Egypt.

00:32:36.460 Oh, I've always wanted to go to Egypt.

00:32:38.540 Begin a conversation.

00:32:39.980 Begin a conversation.

00:32:41.720 So it ends up that later on, we found out about that group.

00:32:44.540 And there was one lady that was in the supermarket in Tyler, Texas, and a Muslim woman comes in

00:32:50.020 and she goes, I'm not ready for this.

00:32:52.660 I'm not ready to go up and talk to her.

00:32:55.280 So she starts making these promises to the Lord.

00:32:58.320 If I go down this aisle and she's on the next aisle, I'm going to talk to her.

00:33:02.620 So she goes down the aisle, comes up, there she is.

00:33:05.580 Okay.

00:33:05.880 If it's, if she's on the next aisle, I'm going to talk.

00:33:07.880 She does this three times.

00:33:09.060 And finally it ends up, she goes, okay, Lord, here I go.

00:33:12.940 She goes around that corner and starts pushing her basket really fast toward this Muslim lady. 1.00

00:33:18.100 Well, there was another lady that had been on the other side of the store and she comes 1.00

00:33:22.400 around the corner and she's walking real fast toward this Muslim lady. 1.00

00:33:25.960 And she's looking like, what is this?

00:33:28.100 And they were just going to meet her and get her name.

00:33:30.920 And they found her to be very warm, very lonely.

00:33:34.780 And they were able to get coffee with her.

00:33:37.080 That's where it starts.

00:33:38.000 Tell me about your life.

00:33:39.900 And then what we like to do is tell gospel stories.

00:33:43.420 So if we meet someone, I meet Mohammed from Lebanon, I'll just say, hey, tell me your life. 1.00

00:33:51.220 How did you get here?

00:33:52.180 They might be a refugee.

00:33:53.960 And then we say, wow, okay, that's an amazing story.

00:33:57.040 Can I tell you a story?

00:33:58.160 Sure.

00:33:58.900 Okay.

00:33:59.180 This is a true story from the word of God.

00:34:02.460 The Jesus friends were in a boat one day and the wind started whipping, the waves started

00:34:06.900 splashing.

00:34:07.300 And we go through that story and Jesus calms the sea.

00:34:10.080 And then we just end with this.

00:34:11.860 And that's a true story from the word of God.

00:34:13.800 So, hey, Mohammed, what do you think of that story?

00:34:16.480 Does that make sense?

00:34:17.740 Do you think it's real?

00:34:18.680 What do you think?

00:34:19.800 And you're getting them to engage in the word without pulling this out, which would freak

00:34:24.280 them out.

00:34:25.480 And they're relating to the Bible.

00:34:27.720 And then they may want to hear another story.

00:34:31.380 And then after that, we say, okay, I heard your story.

00:34:34.940 We told God's story.

00:34:36.140 Here's my story.

00:34:37.540 Okay.

00:34:37.780 What's your story?

00:34:38.560 I used to be religious, but I gave it up.

00:34:41.900 They'll say, you're not really?

00:34:43.000 No, not religious.

00:34:44.280 What do you mean?

00:34:45.420 There's too many rules.

00:34:46.580 And when I kept the rules, I didn't feel any closer to God.

00:34:51.100 And my story is really their story.

00:34:54.040 That's the same way they feel.

00:34:56.360 And oftentimes they want to hear more.

00:34:59.480 So if you can get to that point where you share God's word, they will listen to it.

00:35:04.780 And when we say this, this is a true story from the word of God.

00:35:09.080 We have never had one Muslim say, wait a minute, wait a minute. 1.00

00:35:13.140 Is that from the Quran or the Bible?

00:35:15.400 Never happened.

00:35:16.540 Somehow there was some authority there that just stopped them in their tracks and they

00:35:21.640 listened to it.

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00:36:51.340 What are some of the persistent questions that you get from Muslims that you are engaging

00:36:56.020 about Christianity?

00:36:57.380 Like, what are some of the things maybe holding them back from believing that Jesus is God?

00:37:02.080 Yeah, I mean, they'll often say it's a white man's religion and not knowing that Christianity

00:37:08.160 started, you know, in their own backyard.

00:37:10.220 They don't understand that.

00:37:11.920 The whole thing about Jesus saying he's the son of God, no, he's just a prophet.

00:37:17.620 They can't accept that.

00:37:19.020 But what we do is go to passages where Jesus declares that.

00:37:23.320 So if someone says, well, I don't believe that, we'll just open it up and say, well, you

00:37:27.160 know, here in John 15, it says this, read this.

00:37:30.080 What do you think Jesus is saying?

00:37:32.560 Well, I think he's saying he's the son of God.

00:37:34.240 Yeah, I think that's what he's saying, too.

00:37:36.040 And that just seems to bypass it.

00:37:38.760 So they have struggles with that.

00:37:41.300 Politics gets involved in it, too.

00:37:43.660 They always want to know how you voted.

00:37:46.120 Man, that is a non-starter when they go down that political road.

00:37:50.220 And this is mostly for Muslims in America. 0.62

00:37:52.440 Yes.

00:37:52.840 And around the world, too.

00:37:54.240 They'll want to know.

00:37:55.340 Like, what you think, yeah.

00:37:56.720 What messages are they hearing that is making them think that if you vote, I'm guessing

00:38:01.100 if you vote Republican, then they think, you don't like me.

00:38:04.760 Exactly.

00:38:06.000 Interesting.

00:38:06.660 Yeah.

00:38:06.840 So the same kind of messages that we hear in the mainstream media, they're hearing, too.

00:38:11.020 Yeah.

00:38:11.300 And I mean, when Obama was president, we would be in Egypt.

00:38:14.900 And I'm telling you, none of the Muslims there believed that he was a Christian because he

00:38:19.800 said he went to Jeremiah Wright's church and maybe visited a few times.

00:38:23.860 They said, well, you're a Muslim president.

00:38:26.400 I mean, they would just say it openly.

00:38:28.980 Yeah.

00:38:29.420 Yeah.

00:38:29.660 That wasn't said openly here, but it sure was out there.

00:38:32.360 Yeah.

00:38:32.980 That's so interesting how American media narratives and American politics, I've heard that from

00:38:37.620 other people, including in Africa.

00:38:39.600 We have friends that immigrated from Africa, from Kenya and Zimbabwe, and they had other

00:38:44.120 immigrant friends who just told them when they got here, hey, you don't vote Republican

00:38:48.140 if you're an immigrant, which, of course, they are very smart people and thought for

00:38:51.980 themselves and all of that.

00:38:53.220 But it's interesting.

00:38:54.620 And I remember the late Votie Bauckham.

00:38:56.820 Oh, yeah.

00:38:57.400 You know, he was the head of a seminary there in Zambia, I believe it was.

00:39:00.960 And he would talk about how the narratives about systemic racism and things, which I just

00:39:06.140 think are so American, actually would make their way over to places like that.

00:39:10.980 That's right.

00:39:11.500 And have an effect on their ideology and theology that's fascinating and troubling.

00:39:16.340 Yeah, it really is.

00:39:17.300 And you know what?

00:39:17.980 When it comes to the threat of Islam, that we're all feeling, we are, I mean, I think 1.00

00:39:24.980 this verse, John 16, 1, it says this, Jesus said on the night that he was betrayed, all

00:39:32.160 this I have told you so that you will not fall away.

00:39:36.660 And then he says, they will put you out of the synagogue.

00:39:40.740 And then there's a colon there and it stops.

00:39:43.060 In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are doing a service

00:39:48.620 for God.

00:39:49.560 They will do this because they have not known me or the Father.

00:39:53.400 I think the first half of that verse, Allie Beth, is about Judaism and the early church.

00:39:59.080 Put them out of the synagogue, get them out of the way. 1.00

00:40:01.840 There weren't mass killings.

00:40:03.200 There were some killings.

00:40:04.780 But I think the second half of that verse is about Islam.

00:40:07.620 In fact, a time is coming when they think killing you is doing a service to God.

00:40:13.540 So that's why during the 10-year war in Syria, if a vial of blood was sent to Saudi Arabia to

00:40:22.840 certain people and you could prove that it was from a Christian that lost their life,

00:40:29.460 you'd get $2,000.

00:40:32.480 So, I mean, this was just a part of it.

00:40:34.440 This was well-known on the streets.

00:40:37.340 And so there is that side, that dark, demonic side that's happening.

00:40:43.060 But then there's the people that come to faith in Christ.

00:40:47.500 And I think of this one girl, Dina, in the Gaza Strip that was a teacher.

00:40:52.660 And the teachers in the summer have to do—it's like a Hamas vacation Bible school. 0.95

00:40:59.540 So, I mean, Hamas comes in, all the school kids in a certain age group are indoctrinated.

00:41:04.760 They dress them up with suicide bomber vests.

00:41:07.280 They get fake guns. 1.00

00:41:08.360 They kill the Jews, all of that. 1.00

00:41:09.820 And she comes to faith in Christ that month.

00:41:15.980 And then later that month, they're going to have this school where every—she has to do it. 0.65

00:41:22.220 And Dina gets a hold of us and says, I'm not doing that this year.

00:41:26.880 I'm talking about Jesus, the Good Shepherd, and that He loves us.

00:41:30.960 And we're going to do crafts, and we're going to read the Bible, and we're going to tell them about Jesus.

00:41:34.880 This is in Gaza in a wild, dark place.

00:41:41.060 And so we said to her, Dina, they're going to kill you for doing that.

00:41:45.440 Are you afraid of them doing that?

00:41:47.480 And she said, no, I already crossed that bridge when I gave my life to Jesus.

00:41:53.400 And she did it.

00:41:54.660 Wow.

00:41:55.060 And we got the pictures, and there's kids with signs saying, I love Jesus.

00:41:59.540 Wow.

00:42:00.100 These are heroes of our faith.

00:42:02.040 This is like Hebrews 11 today, where people are going to the worst places, you can imagine, and they're not afraid.

00:42:09.780 Yeah.

00:42:10.420 It's really convicting for us.

00:42:12.580 Not that there is no danger, but it's not as present and as imminent and as sure as it is for people there.

00:42:21.600 I mean, she's basically quoting Scripture by saying, look, I counted the cost when I came to Christ, and I already decided that my life is, you know, it's something to be laid down for the gospel.

00:42:34.540 So she already died to herself.

00:42:36.280 That's right.

00:42:36.740 She already died to herself, and that's how we should all think.

00:42:39.380 So true.

00:42:40.240 That's a good lesson for us from Dina about sharing the gospel here, is that it might be dangerous.

00:42:46.980 Yeah.

00:42:47.360 Like the promise from Jesus is not that it won't be dangerous.

00:42:51.200 It's not that they won't kill you.

00:42:52.860 It's that they can't kill your body and soul and hell. 0.99

00:42:55.320 That's right.

00:42:56.180 That's so true.

00:42:57.280 And so that's a really good lesson from her.

00:42:59.660 You know, so it is happening here where people are meeting Jesus and having experiences like in the Middle East.

00:43:06.860 So we lived in Colorado for 20 years.

00:43:10.060 Summers were nice, like shorts and a sweatshirt.

00:43:12.640 We lived at 7,500 feet.

00:43:14.940 And then we moved here, and it's like, oh, my gosh, it's so hot.

00:43:18.440 So I was in a meeting all day, mission meetings, like all day.

00:43:22.380 And then it's time to go, and it's 5 o'clock.

00:43:24.920 And I thought, shoot, I got to pick up Joanne, and she's all the way across town, and we have a dinner.

00:43:30.040 We're not going to make it in time.

00:43:31.180 So I get up on the bush freeway, and the Honda says four miles till empty.

00:43:35.320 Oh, gosh.

00:43:36.140 So I pull off, and there's three stations, and there's a fee now.

00:43:39.760 Okay, I'll go there.

00:43:40.920 So I stick in my credit card, and it says, must-see cashier.

00:43:44.560 And I just went, oh, come on, Lord, can I get a break today?

00:43:47.680 You know, I have such a tough life.

00:43:49.200 And so I go into the station to put my card down, and a Muslim woman walks up to me, and she's covered. 0.82

00:43:55.060 And she's getting it set up for me to use the pump.

00:43:58.780 And I said, wow, you're Muslim.

00:44:01.100 We work in the Middle East.

00:44:02.040 We do humanitarian efforts and things like that.

00:44:05.060 We've spent a lot of time there.

00:44:06.260 Where are you from?

00:44:07.240 She goes, will you go to the Middle East a lot?

00:44:09.500 And I said, yeah.

00:44:10.200 And she goes, okay, then you have to guess.

00:44:12.240 I said, oh, Egypt. 0.97

00:44:14.360 She goes, nope, Saudi Arabia.

00:44:16.560 And I said, you're kidding.

00:44:18.400 And so I said, you know, I have a book in the car about how God is honoring your people.

00:44:25.220 God is lifting the Muslim people up.

00:44:27.580 And she said, what do you mean by that?

00:44:29.180 And I said, he's coming to them.

00:44:31.720 He's coming to them all around the world.

00:44:33.720 He's coming in dreams.

00:44:35.440 I wrote a book about Muslims having dreams about Jesus.

00:44:38.120 She said, you wrote a book about that?

00:44:40.820 I said, yeah.

00:44:41.700 And she goes, hmm, because I've been having dreams about Jesus.

00:44:45.720 Wow.

00:44:46.120 I just went, okay, Lord, forgive me for whining about the humidity.

00:44:52.080 You know, I'm going to be late, whatever.

00:44:54.400 And so I give her this book.

00:44:55.820 And a couple of days later, I'm going to get gas.

00:44:58.780 And I thought, oh, I need to stop there.

00:45:01.060 And then, oh, I need to go to that pump.

00:45:03.420 So I go to the pump and I stick the card and it works perfectly.

00:45:06.760 Wow.

00:45:07.060 See, I think it was a card malfunction.

00:45:09.880 I think it was an order from God.

00:45:11.240 It didn't say, please see Kesher.

00:45:12.780 It said, must see Kesher.

00:45:13.680 I go in and this woman, Rawia, is reading Dreams and Visions.

00:45:18.000 And I said, do you like this?

00:45:20.140 And she goes, this book is like my life.

00:45:22.780 And I said, what do you mean?

00:45:24.060 And she said, Jesus has been coming to me for 30 years now in dreams.

00:45:28.280 I said, 30 years?

00:45:30.340 Didn't you ever ask a Christian or go to a church and try to get answers?

00:45:35.040 And she goes, plenty of times.

00:45:36.700 But I don't know.

00:45:38.000 I felt like people maybe were afraid of me because I was Muslim and that.

00:45:42.660 But I just knew this, that Jesus told me that he loved me so much in these dreams.

00:45:48.400 One day he was coming for me.

00:45:51.040 And I said, Rawia, I think it's today.

00:45:54.220 I mean, I'm thinking this is the day.

00:45:57.200 And I share the gospel through Romans.

00:45:59.180 And I said, what do you think?

00:46:00.260 She said, I'm ready.

00:46:02.200 We held hands in the Fina gas station and she prayed and received Christ.

00:46:06.180 Wow.

00:46:06.480 And it was glorious.

00:46:08.220 And nobody walked in and interrupted us.

00:46:11.140 How many Rawias are out there, Ali Beth? 1.00

00:46:14.200 How many people are neighbors that, I don't know about them, you know?

00:46:19.780 Yeah.

00:46:20.260 The gospel is risky and it's time for Christians to just do it. 1.00

00:46:25.060 Yeah.

00:46:25.360 And so, you know, we're seeing it all.

00:46:28.840 One friend of ours who's now with the Lord, they got excited about meeting Muslims and sharing

00:46:34.520 with them.

00:46:35.240 And they realized there was a Muslim family on their block that they'd never met for years.

00:46:41.300 As they just knocked on the door and said, we're your neighbors.

00:46:44.080 We haven't met you.

00:46:45.180 And we're sorry.

00:46:46.180 We haven't.

00:46:46.520 Would you come over to our house for dinner?

00:46:48.340 And they said, yes, we would love to.

00:46:51.060 So they get all excited.

00:46:52.980 They're trying to make hummus and things that they would like.

00:46:56.060 The family was from Kuwait.

00:46:58.160 And they show up and the kids are just like wound up.

00:47:01.780 Like they thought they drank Red Bull on the way over.

00:47:04.920 They're knocking the water over and all that.

00:47:06.800 And the mom finally says, I'm so sorry.

00:47:08.760 I'm humiliated.

00:47:09.540 The kids are excited.

00:47:11.360 And they're excited because we lived here for 12 years.

00:47:14.880 And this is the first time we've ever been invited into someone's house.

00:47:18.820 Wow.

00:47:18.940 And then they find out they're related to royalty in Kuwait.

00:47:24.480 They're not exactly on the terrorist list, you know.

00:47:27.460 And so, hey, I would just say this.

00:47:30.420 Muslims are open more now than ever in 14 centuries to the gospel of Jesus.

00:47:36.740 They are responding and they're waiting.

00:47:39.980 And so it's up to us to go introduce them to Jesus.

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00:48:40.240 That's netsuite.com slash Allie.

00:48:47.560 Now, a lot of these Muslims are leaving predominantly Muslim countries. 0.71

00:48:52.500 And the governments in places like Syria are extremely hostile for a lot of reasons, political

00:48:59.880 reasons, religious reasons as well.

00:49:01.780 Y'all have been blacklisted, right?

00:49:04.580 From Syria.

00:49:05.740 Is that right?

00:49:06.780 Are there other countries that y'all aren't able to enter?

00:49:09.460 We're not sure on a few of them.

00:49:11.400 Yeah.

00:49:11.780 You know, after smuggling Bibles into Iran a couple of times, maybe.

00:49:15.240 We're not sure.

00:49:15.980 But I will never forget being there with the secret church and how they just needed Bibles. 0.81

00:49:25.340 And we were in Esfahan, which is close to a nuclear reactor that Israel just hit, you

00:49:31.380 know, months ago.

00:49:32.720 And we're just on the corner meeting people.

00:49:35.060 And Muslims were just stopping by.

00:49:36.680 You're Americans.

00:49:37.520 Are you Christians?

00:49:38.920 Yeah.

00:49:39.700 And do you have Bibles?

00:49:41.720 And yes, we do.

00:49:43.340 And just handing them out.

00:49:45.000 And I mean, there was a roundabout we were on and people were just going and sticking

00:49:50.440 their arms out, wanting a Bible.

00:49:53.860 And so probably we're on the radar.

00:49:56.240 I don't know.

00:49:56.860 It doesn't matter.

00:49:57.500 But God's word is always going to be triumphant, never returns void.

00:50:01.400 Yeah.

00:50:01.880 And so it's just worth it.

00:50:05.060 Yeah.

00:50:05.720 For those who are like, okay, I know a Muslim in our community who, you know, lives on my

00:50:11.900 street or whatever.

00:50:12.860 I want you to finish the rest of that story that you were talking about sharing the gospel

00:50:18.860 and you said, I used to be religious, but I'm not.

00:50:21.600 It was too hard to keep rules.

00:50:23.460 And you said that your story reflected their story.

00:50:26.980 Yeah.

00:50:27.220 But can you bring that over the finish line so other people might be able to use that

00:50:31.220 same model?

00:50:31.720 So then you've heard their story and then we've heard God's story, stories about Jesus, and

00:50:38.300 then our story that we used to be religious.

00:50:42.020 And they will resonate with that.

00:50:44.080 They will resonate.

00:50:45.280 And we shared this exactly with a guy that was a former terrorist in Syria in Jordan.

00:50:50.300 And we said, that's what it's about.

00:50:54.460 It's about Jesus.

00:50:56.160 And this guy had been hardened.

00:50:57.700 Our leaders didn't like to visit him, but we didn't know that someone had met them and

00:51:02.580 given him a Bible.

00:51:03.500 And he and his wife started reading it.

00:51:05.660 And when we said, it's so simple, you can give your lives to Christ.

00:51:09.740 The Bible says, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart

00:51:15.340 that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

00:51:19.500 You give your life to Christ, repent of your sins.

00:51:22.900 And we did that with this man and his wife.

00:51:26.360 And he looked at his wife and he said, that's exactly what we've been waiting for, isn't it?

00:51:31.180 And she said, that's it.

00:51:32.760 And they were ready to pray.

00:51:34.340 And so the hard job is after that to follow them up because that, you know, they will still

00:51:42.740 be under the influence of Islam.

00:51:44.880 How can they be discipled?

00:51:46.260 How can you get them into the word and help them grow?

00:51:49.740 And that's really important.

00:51:52.120 So it's getting them away from religion. 0.75

00:51:55.140 Religion gives you rules. 1.00

00:51:56.780 Jesus gives you life.

00:51:58.160 And they're all looking for that.

00:52:00.380 And so I think it's easy to just go into the gospel and many Muslims may have to hear

00:52:06.300 it several times before they respond.

00:52:09.580 So if they don't respond, that's okay.

00:52:11.640 They heard it.

00:52:12.880 The next person can pick it up, whoever God leads to them.

00:52:15.980 Yeah.

00:52:16.480 That's so important to remember that we are just one touch point on someone's testimony,

00:52:21.240 whether you are the person that God uses to bring them over the finish line, or you're

00:52:25.060 the very first Christian that they meet, there may have been 10,000 different moments that

00:52:31.300 God has used in that person's life.

00:52:33.360 That's so true.

00:52:34.180 To bring them to himself.

00:52:36.160 Tell us what churches and pastors can be doing.

00:52:39.100 They're listening to this and they're like, I don't know if my church is doing enough to

00:52:42.120 minister to the Muslims, either abroad or here.

00:52:45.400 What's the first step?

00:52:46.660 I think the best thing they could do, a pastor could have someone come in, maybe from our team,

00:52:51.440 and share on a Sunday morning where they can really hear how the gospel is breaking through

00:52:57.320 the difficult areas, hear the stories.

00:52:59.300 We always say this, if you want to tell someone truth, tell them.

00:53:03.180 If you want them to know the truth, tell them.

00:53:05.220 If you want to change their hearts, tell them a story.

00:53:08.060 When they start seeing these stories and seeing the before and after pictures of men and women

00:53:13.420 that have come to faith in Christ that had hardened looks and all of a sudden they have the

00:53:17.420 fruit of the Spirit, I mean, it's convincing.

00:53:19.780 And so then after that, it's very simple, just have a training with people on how to engage

00:53:25.040 Muslims in conversations, and we can do that.

00:53:28.460 And so it works here, works in Europe.

00:53:31.700 We're doing that in Europe, works in the Middle East.

00:53:34.700 And so real simple, but devote some time.

00:53:37.680 Hey, we live in Texas.

00:53:38.860 There's a huge Muslim population.

00:53:40.780 It's the largest Muslim population in America, I believe.

00:53:44.100 It used to be Michigan.

00:53:45.540 I think we're number one now.

00:53:46.840 And so we need to be able to—God's brought them to the Bible Belt. 0.98

00:53:52.520 I mean, it couldn't be any better than this.

00:53:54.840 We have an opportunity to share with them lots of believers.

00:53:58.260 They can share the love of Christ, so.

00:54:00.200 Yeah.

00:54:00.760 And I think it's important what you said earlier about your friend who was in Dearborn and realized,

00:54:05.660 okay, we've got some radical Muslims that are coming over here, and that presents a threat. 1.00

00:54:09.800 So you can have concerns about immigration and the Islamification of the West and love 0.81

00:54:16.120 these people at the same time.

00:54:18.060 And really, those two things kind of go hand in hand.

00:54:20.500 Like, we want them to be released from enslavement to Islam. 1.00

00:54:24.500 We want them to know Christ and bear the fruit of the Spirit.

00:54:27.240 And so it's not one or the other.

00:54:29.880 Sometimes people pit those things against each other.

00:54:32.240 No, we love our neighbor.

00:54:33.600 We share the gospel.

00:54:34.860 And we have concerns about immigration policy and all that.

00:54:37.640 It's so true. 0.84

00:54:38.260 We have a friend that was a pastor in Syria, and there was a couple that kept coming and

00:54:43.520 visiting him.

00:54:44.160 They're having dreams and visions.

00:54:45.480 They're Muslim.

00:54:45.980 I mean, they're covered.

00:54:47.060 It's a big deal that they walk down a Christian street. 1.00

00:54:50.340 But finally, they are ready.

00:54:52.020 Their children are ready.

00:54:53.540 He leads them to faith.

00:54:55.460 So this is an on-the-ground church.

00:54:57.500 I mean, you have three churches now.

00:54:58.900 You have the underground church, the secret church, on the ground, and then the cyber church,

00:55:02.980 the above-ground church.

00:55:04.040 But this is on the ground.

00:55:05.140 It's a church in Syria.

00:55:06.440 Then they want to be baptized.

00:55:08.900 And he said, okay, this is the line in the sand.

00:55:11.900 If your family, if your relatives find out about this, it'll cause you problems.

00:55:16.400 You could die. 0.74

00:55:17.140 We're ready.

00:55:18.260 So it ends up, they do get baptized.

00:55:20.180 Somehow a relative finds out, and the pastor finds himself arrested in northern Syria.

00:55:25.340 They take him all the way down to Damascus and put him in the third story below the ground floor.

00:55:32.520 It's called the Damascus Dungeon.

00:55:34.600 They put him in there.

00:55:35.800 His wife doesn't know what's going to happen. 1.00

00:55:37.340 He's going to get beaten up.

00:55:38.640 They put him in a cell with 39 other Muslims, and it should hold about 20 people. 0.62

00:55:44.720 I mean, they're just crouched together.

00:55:47.060 And he just thought, I'm going to die here.

00:55:50.260 I mean, there's no way I'm going to escape this.

00:55:52.720 So when the guard comes in, he's just throwing pita on the floor, and they're all running for it.

00:55:59.120 He just grabs one and says, hey, in my faith, we pray before we eat.

00:56:05.600 Can I pray?

00:56:07.040 And the guy that's kind of the head ISIS dude looks at him, what?

00:56:09.980 He goes, well, I like to pray before I eat.

00:56:12.080 Can we pray?

00:56:14.280 Whatever.

00:56:15.100 So he prays.

00:56:15.900 Something shifted in that cell.

00:56:19.080 After he prayed, the authority of God came.

00:56:22.400 Miracles started happening.

00:56:23.720 That night, he goes to sleep.

00:56:25.480 He leans against the wall and sits all the way down so nobody can come up behind him.

00:56:30.800 And he's asleep.

00:56:31.720 He feels a tap.

00:56:33.260 And there's a guy whispering in his ear, and he said, if we ever get out of here, can you memorize my number?

00:56:39.060 He goes, why?

00:56:39.700 He goes, because Jesus is coming to me in dreams.

00:56:43.160 The next night, another guy comes.

00:56:45.960 The next night, two guys come.

00:56:47.680 It ends up that it was six or seven come to him while he's in jail.

00:56:51.760 The end of the week, shockingly, they just let him out of jail.

00:56:55.060 Never touched.

00:56:56.240 Never beaten up.

00:56:57.760 Nothing.

00:56:58.860 And his wife comes to pick him up.

00:57:00.680 They call and say, your husband's out of jail.

00:57:03.260 And so she gets there just thinking, what's he like?

00:57:06.480 Are we going to have to go to the hospital?

00:57:08.100 And she runs up, hugs him.

00:57:09.340 How did it go?

00:57:09.940 And he goes, it was the best week of my life.

00:57:13.040 I've never seen God move with such dangerous people like that as I did in that cell.

00:57:19.720 It was the best week of my life.

00:57:21.580 They've had those gospel conversations.

00:57:25.200 Those guys and their families have come to faith in Christ.

00:57:28.120 Because even the radicals don't stand against Jesus' power.

00:57:34.000 They don't stand a chance at all.

00:57:36.460 Amen.

00:57:36.960 So that's what God is up to.

00:57:38.320 That's right.

00:57:39.400 Okay.

00:57:39.720 Tell us more about your books, where people can get them.

00:57:42.540 Sure.

00:57:43.360 We're on Amazon.

00:57:44.840 And so Tom and Joanne Doyle, the last one we wrote is Women Who Risk, Secret Agents for 0.97

00:57:51.800 Jesus in the Muslim World. 0.98

00:57:53.600 And it's all about women. 1.00

00:57:55.640 But we wanted to write that.

00:57:57.020 Joanne and I were talking about wherever we go, Iraq, Syria, all these places, it seems

00:58:02.380 like Alibeth, it starts with the women. 1.00

00:58:05.000 And one day we were talking about that in the house and Joanne said, well, you know, I think

00:58:09.080 women are just the spiritual gatekeepers of their family. 1.00

00:58:11.660 And I went, bingo.

00:58:13.500 Yes, they are.

00:58:15.180 And so if a Muslim woman comes to faith in Christ, she will tell her children. 1.00

00:58:20.000 She will tell her husband, as dangerous as that may be.

00:58:22.640 So we wrote a book about women going into their villages, sharing and telling what Christ

00:58:29.040 has done to them, for them.

00:58:30.780 So Amazon, you can go to unchartedministries.com.

00:58:34.200 But it was women who foresaw the empty grave. 1.00

00:58:37.160 Finance Jesus Ministry.

00:58:39.200 Yeah.

00:58:39.940 Amazing.

00:58:40.360 And you know what we don't see in the New Testament?

00:58:43.360 A woman rejecting Jesus. 0.95

00:58:46.580 We see a lot of men that do.

00:58:48.660 Isn't that something?

00:58:49.720 Interesting.

00:58:50.380 Yeah.

00:58:50.600 I mean, that's a whole other lesson that we can learn.

00:58:53.600 Because in America, we see a lot of women leaving the church, men coming to the church

00:58:57.820 and women going the secular route. 1.00

00:58:59.860 But that's kind of reinvigorates me to share the gospel with those women.

00:59:05.080 Yeah.

00:59:05.240 That we see that example in Christ, in the New Testament.

00:59:08.780 We do.

00:59:09.340 I mean, it's just happening now.

00:59:11.140 We say, reach the Muslim woman, reach the Muslim world. 0.77

00:59:14.160 Wow.

00:59:14.400 They hold the key.

00:59:15.880 And they don't have a lot of rights.

00:59:18.020 No.

00:59:18.120 They don't.

00:59:18.900 So you would think, that's not going to...

00:59:19.780 They might have the most to lose if you look at it from a particular perspective.

00:59:24.060 That's right.

00:59:24.360 Certainly.

00:59:25.260 That's right.

00:59:25.920 Wow.

00:59:26.520 Yeah.

00:59:27.080 That's amazing.

00:59:27.800 And your ministry, how can people learn more about that and support you?

00:59:31.800 That'd be great.

00:59:32.560 Thank you.

00:59:33.260 Uncharted, you just go to unchartedministries.com, U-N-C-H-A-R-T-E-D, unchartedministries.com.

00:59:41.480 And we're about reaching the unreached, standing with the persecuted.

00:59:45.520 Wow.

00:59:45.800 Well, thank you so much, Tom.

00:59:47.060 I really appreciate it.

00:59:48.040 Privileged to be with you.

00:59:49.040 Thank you.

00:59:49.620 Thank you.

00:59:50.020 Thank you.

00:59:57.800 Thank you.

01:00:11.520 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - January 09, 2026

Ep 1285 ｜ Muslims Are Dreaming of Jesus. Missionary Reveals Miraculous Conversions ｜ Tom Doyle

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