Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 129

00:00:00.000 Hello, relatable listeners. I hope everyone is having a wonderful day so far and enjoying your

00:00:07.820 summer. If you are out of school, yay for you. If you are working full time, as I'm sure most of you

00:00:15.040 are, yay for you. I hope that you can still enjoy the pool and fun summer activities on the weekends.

00:00:21.420 That was like the worst part of starting my job after college is realizing that I don't have time

00:00:27.900 to lay out. And so I'm just going to be perpetually pale all year round. That's okay. You get used to

00:00:34.660 it. If you're just now realizing that, if this is like your first summer out of college and you

00:00:38.460 realize, oh my gosh, I have no time to go to the pool. It's okay. You will live through it. All

00:00:44.000 right. Today, what we're talking about is women in the church. I have gotten lots of questions about

00:00:50.180 this. The question typically is, can women be pastors? Is it okay for women to be pastors? Or

00:00:56.780 a more specific question? Is it okay for women to teach men in the church? So first, we are going

00:01:06.740 to look at the verses that are typically cited when we are having this discussion. And they happen to be

00:01:14.040 two of the most controversial verses when this subject is brought up. And that is 1 Timothy 2, 11 through

00:01:22.480 12. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or

00:01:27.440 to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. 1 Corinthians 14, 34. As in all the

00:01:35.260 churches of the saints, the women should be kept silent in the churches, for they are not permitted

00:01:40.860 to speak, but should be in submission as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn,

00:01:46.940 let them ask their husbands at home, for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

00:01:53.300 Yes, the Bible really does say these things. Now, women, let us be real with ourselves. This,

00:01:59.120 by the way, is not just an episode for women. It's an episode for men too, who want to know,

00:02:04.120 okay, is it right for a woman to be a pastor, et cetera. But I'm especially speaking to women because

00:02:09.580 I am a woman and I know, I know the reaction that you might get when you hear these verses. That kind

00:02:16.200 of makes us bristle just a little bit. I can't assume what happens to you when you read those

00:02:20.960 verses. Maybe you read them or hear them and you're like, yeah, totally fine. That makes a lot of sense

00:02:25.100 to me. That's great. That is awesome that that is your first reaction. And I genuinely mean that.

00:02:30.880 My first reaction as a, you know, simply prideful person, that would be my, um, that would probably be

00:02:38.360 my sinful or that is my sinful disposition to try to take control of things and to assume that I'm

00:02:43.700 completely self-sufficient. So my fleshly reaction is one of defensiveness. When I read that, I don't

00:02:49.520 like that. It's shameful for a woman to speak in the church. I'm supposed to be submissive.

00:02:54.960 What? I'm to remain quiet in the church. When am I ever quiet? I mean, I speak for a living. I've been

00:02:59.820 talking since I was like age two. I'm a better talker than most men that I know. What are, what are you

00:03:05.560 saying? That I can't speak in the context of the church? That doesn't make any sense to me

00:03:09.560 and my prideful flesh. Um, I'm an outspoken person. If you haven't noticed that so far, I am

00:03:15.660 confident on stage. I also have a gift of teaching and I don't mean that in any kind of braggadocious

00:03:21.480 way. There are so many gifts that I do not have. I could spend a whole podcast telling you the things

00:03:27.280 that I am horrible at. Like I wasn't that great at school growing up except for two, maybe one subject

00:03:33.400 because I'm bad at a lot of things. I've never been just one of those people. That's great at

00:03:38.760 everything. I am good at very few things, but one of the guests that I have been given, I think,

00:03:45.080 at least I hope so. I hope all of you aren't rolling your eyes and thinking, wow, no, you don't. But

00:03:48.980 I've had this affirmed in different areas of my life. One gift that I do have is being able to explain

00:03:54.080 things pretty well. Not always, not in every single case, but that is a gift that God has given me.

00:03:59.700 So, if I'm talented in teaching in some ways, I'm talented in encouragement, I'm talented in

00:04:05.720 exhortation, I'm talented in getting up on stage, what do you mean, God, that in the role or in the

00:04:14.640 context of the church that I am not allowed to do that? Well, what I have to realize is that God is

00:04:23.060 sovereign, that God made me, that he gave me my gifts. He gave me what I am good at and what I am

00:04:30.840 bad at. And he knows my strengths. He knows my weaknesses. He knows my insecurities. He knows

00:04:38.700 what I'm confident in. He gave me a gift for public speaking. He gave me a gift for teaching.

00:04:43.700 He knows how much I excel in these things. He gave me skills. He gave me my love for learning more about

00:04:49.300 the Bible and helping other people learn it too. And he also knows exactly all of the many, many,

00:04:54.000 many things that I am terrible at. He knows all of these things. And yet, and yet his word is timeless

00:05:00.960 and true. Therefore, therefore, these verses apply just as much to me as they do to anyone else at any

00:05:09.740 other point in history. Because the fact of the matter is, when I read those verses and I have a

00:05:13.680 negative reaction and I start pumping myself up and I say, well, I think I'm a better speaker. I'm a

00:05:18.940 better teacher. I know more about the Bible than this person who got to stand up and teach in church

00:05:23.420 or this pastor or this teacher or this guy who stood behind the pulpit. I could do that better.

00:05:29.920 That's pride. Plain and simple. That is pride. That is arrogance. And there is no place for pride

00:05:36.740 when I am reading the word of God, which tells me that I am deficient, but that God is sufficient.

00:05:41.820 So like I said, God knows everything about me. He made me. He knows exactly who I am,

00:05:47.400 what I have a propensity to do, what my strengths are, what my weaknesses are. And he tells me this

00:05:53.980 in his word. And so instead of me saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, my talents are bigger and better than

00:05:58.280 God. My knowledge is bigger and better than God. I know what to do better than God does.

00:06:04.080 And maybe this is just culturally irrelevant today. I need to take a step back and realize God knows me

00:06:10.060 better than me, that his plans are better than mine, that his purpose is better than mine,

00:06:14.260 that his structures and his systems that he has set up are better than mine, that he is wiser than

00:06:19.340 I am. And that I have to trust that his word is what he says it is, which is, uh, that it is

00:06:25.680 breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training and

00:06:30.780 righteousness as second Timothy 3 16 says. So I slow my roll. I take a seat. I take a step back

00:06:39.740 and I say, okay, God, you are bigger and better than I am. And in light of that, in light of the

00:06:47.480 sovereignty and the all-knowing nature of God, in light of the inerrancy of his word, in light of my

00:06:52.080 finite understanding, in light of my lowly place in front of the throne of a holy God, I lay down my

00:06:57.940 pride and I say, okay, God, show me, please give me the wisdom to understand this. Show me how this

00:07:03.400 reflects your goodness and love and your power. Help me grasp this truth so I can obey you better.

00:07:09.740 I can know you more. Uh, it's okay for us to not understand. It's okay to acknowledge our human

00:07:15.760 reactions, uh, to these verses that don't seem to agree with us. As long as our next action is to lay

00:07:23.120 down our feelings at the feet of Jesus and say, not my will, but your will be done. So that is our

00:07:28.900 posture going into this because I see these verses cited all the time by men, but especially by women

00:07:34.520 saying, see, the Bible is oppressive. See, uh, Christianity is oppressive. It's this

00:07:39.540 oppressive patriarchy. And we'll get into that specific argument in a little bit. And I just

00:07:43.840 want you to know that from a human perspective, I get it. I get it. You're speaking to someone

00:07:48.800 who was outspoken. You're speaking to someone who would probably really enjoy being on stage

00:07:53.780 and teaching all of these things. And yet I am telling us that we have to defer to the word of

00:07:59.240 God. Uh, but the question is while we defer to the word of God is, is this God, what, what is

00:08:05.360 God's will in this? What, what do these verses mean? Are these cultural verses to be thrown out?

00:08:10.500 Are they truths that still apply today? What is a woman's role in the church in 2019? What does all

00:08:17.680 of this mean? So we have to take a step back and we have to look again, when we don't know something

00:08:23.060 about scripture, when we disagree with something that has to do with scripture, instead of backing

00:08:27.860 up and assessing our own feelings and validating how we feel, we have to say, okay, feelings,

00:08:33.200 be quiet. Let's see what the word of God says. Uh, if you haven't noticed, as we back up and kind

00:08:39.440 of look at the context of all of this, if you haven't noticed, there has been a movement toward

00:08:43.520 egalitarianism in the evangelical church. So what is egalitarianism? Uh, within Christianity

00:08:49.000 specifically, it's the idea that men and women are free to hold the same positions. Uh, women can be

00:08:55.780 pastors. They can lead men. Uh, the verse often cited for this, uh, not always, but often is Galatians

00:09:01.940 328. There is neither Jew nor Greek. There is neither slave nor free. There's nor, uh, there is

00:09:07.800 neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And so egalitarians would say there

00:09:13.660 is radical equality in the church of God. Uh, there is no difference. God does not look at anatomy when

00:09:19.620 choosing who shall lead in the body of Christ. On the other end, typically we see complementarianism,

00:09:24.960 which is, uh, the idea that men and women are equal in worth, but they differ in their roles. Uh,

00:09:31.880 now some would say that this is basically a patriarchy because traditional complementarianism

00:09:37.160 holds that men are still in charge. They're supposed to be the teachers and the pastors,

00:09:41.500 the only ones exercising authority within the church. Uh, okay. Maybe so. I would say to that,

00:09:47.620 to people who say that it's a patriarchy, uh, complementarians don't believe that women can't

00:09:52.420 have any leadership within the church, just that they can't exercise authority over men, uh,

00:09:57.600 as the passages that we read say. So whatever you want to call it, uh, this position is that men and

00:10:03.420 women are different. God has given them different roles, different, um, strengths to be displayed

00:10:09.060 within the church. Men are to be in a position of teaching adult men and women. They are also the

00:10:14.100 elders. Uh, typically this means that women can teach children. They can teach other women. Uh,

00:10:20.260 they can have other roles within the church where they are not teaching adult men from scripture.

00:10:24.480 And the verses typically cited are the verses that we already listed at the top, uh, first Timothy

00:10:29.800 two, 11 through 12. I don't permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. First

00:10:34.700 Corinthians 14 34, as in all the churches of the saints, the women should be kept silent or should

00:10:40.100 keep silent in the churches. So what is true? We've got this egalitarian view, and then we also

00:10:45.740 have this complementarian view and the egalitarian view is also associated and often associated with

00:10:52.260 Christian feminism really, um, purposely putting women in positions of power. And then, like I said,

00:10:58.680 complementarianism is often associated with what some people call usually pejoratively a more

00:11:05.100 patriarchal view. So what is right? Um, well, as we always do in this podcast, as I do in my own study

00:11:12.020 of scripture, when we have passages that seem to our finite minds, uh, to contradict one another,

00:11:18.040 rather than throwing them out in favor of the other, uh, we go into scripture, into God's truth

00:11:23.880 to try to reconcile what feels confusing to us. Uh, so let's first look at these seemingly offensive

00:11:29.600 verses in first Timothy and in first Corinthians that tell women to be quiet in the church. Uh,

00:11:34.480 the important thing for us is to ask not just what all of these readings mean to us, or really,

00:11:41.460 that's not what we ask at all. The question is, what does this mean? Not what does this mean to me,

00:11:46.460 but what does this mean? And to decipher meaning, we have to look at context and we have to look at

00:11:51.860 the entirety of scripture. So let's look at this context for first, uh, first Timothy two, 11

00:11:56.880 through 12. I do not permit a woman to teach her to exercise authority over a man. Rather she is to

00:12:02.080 remain quiet. That's the part ladies that really gets us the remain quiet part. We're like, are you

00:12:07.080 sure about that? And a lot of people have said, Oh, well, this is just Paul. Paul was a misogynist.

00:12:11.860 And this doesn't have to do with God at all. But of course, well, that's not true. Then we just

00:12:17.660 throw out all parts of scripture that are written by Paul. That's a good chunk of the, of the new

00:12:22.200 Testament lady. Um, in this letter and in this chapter in first Timothy, Paul is speaking about

00:12:27.360 the church when it is assembled together. So that is the context as far as we can see in light of the

00:12:32.400 rest of scripture, in light of the original Greek, in light of the context of this letter. Uh, he is not

00:12:38.660 talking about authority in general outside of the church. He is talking about when the church is

00:12:42.880 assembled together. He says that women are a not to teach a man or B to exercise authority. Some

00:12:49.680 people have argued that it is only authoritative teaching that women are not allowed to do, but,

00:12:55.460 or here denotes that it is teach a man or exercise authority over a man in the church. So that means

00:13:01.360 various positions of authority within the church that is exercised over a man. So that does not include,

00:13:07.620 as we've already talked about the teaching of children, uh, which is discussed in second

00:13:11.440 Timothy one, five, and this does not include teaching women, uh, like it says in Titus two,

00:13:16.160 four, it is very specific. Should not teach a man. Should not exercise authority over a man in the

00:13:21.860 church. Uh, the arguments against the modern application of this verse from, uh, Christian

00:13:26.960 egalitarians and Christian feminists are that while this is cultural, women weren't educated,

00:13:32.420 uh, back then as they are now. And so they were perpetuating false doctrine. So that's why

00:13:37.480 Paul said that, but that doesn't apply to today. A lot of people would say, but here's the problem

00:13:42.540 with that is that if you keep reading the next verses, Paul actually tells us why he tells us

00:13:47.760 exactly why he says what he said, and it actually has nothing to do with education and nothing to do

00:13:53.520 with false doctrine. So the next verse says for Adam was formed first, then Eve and Adam was not

00:14:00.520 deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. So first we know from this word for

00:14:07.000 that he gives us a reason. And like I said, he doesn't list education. He doesn't list false

00:14:12.020 teaching after that. Uh, there were a lot of highly educated women actually during this time and all the

00:14:17.380 false teachers that Paul has already listed in, uh, some of his letters were men. And so we have

00:14:23.740 really no historical grounding whatsoever, logical grounding, whatever to believe that, um, he goes

00:14:30.100 all the way back to creation for his reasoning, which tells us that there is something transcendent

00:14:35.720 rather than something cultural about the roles women are given in the church. Now, why does he say

00:14:41.540 that Adam was formed first as the reason? Because if we go all the way back to Genesis, all the way back

00:14:48.980 to the creation account, we see that God's design for men is different than it is for a woman that

00:14:55.420 God created Adam first. He gave him particular responsibilities. And when he saw that it wasn't

00:15:01.420 good for a man to be alone, he made woman. So there are a couple of things that we can draw from this

00:15:07.180 creation account in Genesis. Uh, man was given different and even greater responsibilities than the

00:15:13.780 woman was, but, uh, he needed what Genesis calls a helper. The helper was not an accessory, but a

00:15:21.580 necessity. Uh, he could not go it alone. He was given someone to compliment him, to support him, to come

00:15:28.400 alongside him. Uh, the Hebrew word used to describe Eve in Genesis is, is there, which means helper it's

00:15:34.200 used 21 times in the old Testament. It's often used to describe God. It is used, uh, typically in the

00:15:39.460 context of offering life sustaining or life saving aid. So again, I will say from the beginning,

00:15:46.400 woman was a necessity to man, not an accessory to man. And she was also not created at the same time

00:15:54.060 as man in the same way as man, or given the same roles as man. So this goes all the way back to the

00:15:59.280 very beginning. That is the reason that Paul cites for why women should not exercise authority over men

00:16:05.420 in the church because it reflects something all the way back to creation. So this has nothing to do with

00:16:11.060 cultural relevance. This has something to do with God's design from the very beginning. So when Paul

00:16:16.600 in first Timothy cites Adam as a reason for men exercising authority over women in the church, he is

00:16:23.360 going back to the beginning. Um, also important to note that Paul in the new Testament often compares

00:16:30.660 Adam to Jesus. Jesus is the new Adam. Romans 5, 18 through 19 calls, uh, Jesus refers to Jesus as the

00:16:37.480 new and better Adam. As Adam brought sin into the world, God, or Jesus saved the world from sin. So I

00:16:43.400 want you to follow me for a second. Uh, who does the Bible also say, uh, God through Paul also say is

00:16:49.740 the head of the church, Jesus, uh, Colossians 118 says, and he is the head of the body. The church says

00:16:56.860 the same thing in Ephesians. Uh, he also uses the headship of Jesus over the church to explain

00:17:01.960 marriage for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church,

00:17:06.100 his body and is himself its savior. So what can be deduced from that? What can be deduced from all of

00:17:12.600 this in light of scripture, in light of creation, in light of Jesus's headship over the church,

00:17:17.320 that men's teaching and authoritative role in the church is reflective of an order that God ordained

00:17:23.340 in creation and reaffirmed through redemption. Okay. Let me say that again. Men's teaching and

00:17:30.000 authoritative role in the church is reflective of an order that God ordained in creation and

00:17:36.160 reinstated through redemption. Uh, the same is true for our other quote, problematic passage that we

00:17:43.240 listed in the beginning of first Corinthians 1434, as in all the churches of the saints, the women should

00:17:49.020 be, or should keep, I keep saying be kept silent. It's, uh, the women should keep silent in the

00:17:55.260 churches for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission. There's that submission

00:18:00.160 word again, that so many, uh, of us women don't like when we first read it. Uh, now just to note

00:18:05.620 here, uh, first Corinthians 11, five and 13 clearly give women the freedom to both prophesy and to pray in

00:18:11.760 the church. So in light of that, it doesn't seem that Paul is giving a mandate for them to be

00:18:16.340 completely silent all the time, like an absolute prohibition, uh, for making any noise. But in the

00:18:22.940 context that he, uh, is, is talking about, he is likely talking about any kind of talk that is again,

00:18:29.320 exercising authority or teaching. You have to look at scripture as a whole. You have to look at the book

00:18:34.080 as a whole, the chapter as a whole, and we have to examine the context. Uh, okay. So keep tracking

00:18:38.880 with me. Uh, if you watch, you will notice that the churches that have female pastors nowadays,

00:18:44.300 the churches that believe in this kind of egalitarianism, the so-called Christian feminism,

00:18:48.900 the ones that don't really believe in biblical gender roles, uh, often though, not always,

00:18:54.880 but often they give way on other biblical issues as well. They very often you will see reject God's

00:19:01.300 view of biblical marriage and embrace gay marriage. So why is that? You could say, because when you start

00:19:07.360 picking and choosing pieces of scripture to fit your own worldview, uh, that all the culturally

00:19:13.740 inconvenient stuff just kind of is left out, which is true. That's true. That is what happens when

00:19:19.240 you base it on what is culturally cool or what your feelings are, what's easy. You kind of just

00:19:24.220 start picking and choosing what is easy for you. So that is true, but it is also bigger than that.

00:19:33.100 It's bigger than that. Uh, we've already seen that the male headship, uh, that God through Paul

00:19:38.160 commands as a reflection of creation. And we have also seen in Romans that Jesus is the new

00:19:43.560 and better Adam. And we have also seen that just as Adam was the head of Eve, that Jesus is the head

00:19:48.380 of the church. And just as Jesus is the head of the church, so the husband is the head of the wife.

00:19:53.080 These are all three marriages that reflect divine dichotomy between husbands and wives from creation

00:19:59.580 to redemption. Furthermore, Ephesians 2, 19 and first Timothy 3, 15 call the church, the household of

00:20:07.520 God. So we are a family. The structure of the church is to reflect the structure that God set

00:20:13.360 up for the family, which is that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the

00:20:18.660 church. So if you miss that, if you miss that very real, very purposeful and very eternal setup of the

00:20:28.460 relationship between men and women in the church, between husbands and wives in Christian marriage,

00:20:33.120 and between Christ and the church, if you miss all of that, that that is a, uh, deliberate and

00:20:38.600 reflective, uh, spiritual truth, it is easy to see how you would find yourself compromising on the

00:20:46.440 definition of marriage as one between a man and a woman. Um, and then subsequently, consequently on many

00:20:53.280 other parts of scripture, uh, that is the kind of interpretation that happens when you assume that

00:20:58.280 verses you don't like are probably unnecessary. That's what happens with that. Uh, that is what

00:21:03.700 happens when you assume that you know better than God. When you replace yourself at the center of the

00:21:08.440 word rather than God, you end up compromising. You end up with really poor theology that is based

00:21:13.760 on whatever you want to base it on. You end up being what Paul describes as just a child being tossed

00:21:22.180 by the waves. Whatever is popular at the time, that's what you base your theology on. Well, that's not

00:21:27.820 what we're called to do. Uh, now I don't, uh, I don't, gosh, I don't have any patience for hearing

00:21:36.360 about, there was this tweet thread not that long ago about how, uh, Christianity and the Bible really

00:21:41.800 is so patriarchal and, or, well, I shouldn't say that because it's usually used as a pejorative. It's

00:21:47.120 not used as a pejorative in the Bible, how it is, uh, oppressive, how it hates women, how it denigrates

00:21:52.920 women, how it objectifies women. Uh, that is not true. The necessity and the value of women is on

00:22:00.080 display throughout scripture from Eve to Sarah to Miriam to Rahab to Deborah to Esther to Ruth to

00:22:06.000 Mary to Martha to Priscilla to Phoebe. I think that's an order I'm not completely sure, but all of these

00:22:11.500 women throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, uh, were of value. They were of purpose.

00:22:17.160 They were used according to God's will to advance his purpose, to advance his kingdom. Women are

00:22:24.420 valuable in the eyes of God. He wouldn't have made women if they weren't. He wouldn't have made them

00:22:29.280 as a necessity rather than as an accessory. What we said earlier, if he didn't think that they were

00:22:34.820 important and valuable and made in his own image. Uh, if we look at the life of Jesus, Jesus locked eyes

00:22:41.640 with the woman caught in adultery. Jesus engaged with the woman at the well. Jesus touched and healed the

00:22:45.740 bleeding woman who was considered unclean that probably no one had touched in years. God loves

00:22:51.200 women. He values women. He made women for a purpose. He made women in his own image. And we as wives in

00:22:59.800 Christian marriage have the privilege of being compared to Christ's bride. Men don't have that same

00:23:05.360 privilege, but we do, which is the church. And you know how husbands are to care for their wives according

00:23:11.140 to this passage in Ephesians 5. Ephesians 5 says, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church

00:23:18.880 and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her having cleansed her by the washing of water with

00:23:24.580 the word so that he might present the church to himself in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any

00:23:30.400 such thing that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way, husbands should love their wives

00:23:37.240 as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself for no one ever hated his own flesh,

00:23:45.060 but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ does the church because we are members of his body.

00:23:52.480 So there is that dichotomy, that reflection again, between marriage, between one husband,

00:23:58.080 between one wife is reflective of Christ and the church. And what a privilege, what an honor it is

00:24:06.280 to be a Christian wife. What an honor it is. Christ died for his church. And this passage is saying

00:24:13.280 that husbands should treat wives in that same way, that they should lay their lives down for their

00:24:20.100 wife. You want to tell me in light of that, that God doesn't have a high view of women, that God

00:24:26.280 doesn't care about women, that God doesn't rejoice in the unique beauty and the purpose and roles of

00:24:31.360 woman. Just look at how much he cares for us. I mean, there's a whole chapter in Proverbs dedicated

00:24:36.900 to a godly Christian wife and woman and what that life looks like. There is so much beauty and joy in

00:24:43.860 being a Christian woman, so much privilege, if you want to use that word, so much honor in being a

00:24:49.180 Christian woman that we get to be co-laborers with our brothers and our sisters in Christ. We get to be

00:24:54.300 co-laborers with Christ. And it's true what Galatians says, 328, that there is no male nor female,

00:25:00.940 Jew nor Greek, whatever, etc. And that is true. When we look in light of the rest of scripture,

00:25:07.600 when we look at the context of this verse, we see that that means when we're talking about

00:25:12.460 participation within the saints, when we're talking about participation in the church,

00:25:17.000 participation in the kingdom of God, when we're talking about our value as co-laborers,

00:25:23.260 when we're talking about salvation, there is no distinction. But that doesn't mean that God doesn't

00:25:28.060 have a specific system, a specific structure, and yes, a specific hierarchy of submission for men

00:25:34.840 and women within the church and within Christian marriage. He does. And it's reflective of a much

00:25:40.440 bigger, a much more eternal reality than the one that we can see. And that's why we don't mess with

00:25:45.780 that. That's why we don't mess with the idea that men are supposed to be the ones exercising

00:25:53.060 authority over women in the church. That's why we don't mess with the idea of a man and a woman being

00:25:57.840 joined in Christian marriage and only a man and a woman being joined in Christian marriage. And

00:26:01.500 that the man is the head of the wife because it demonstrates Christ and the church. That is

00:26:06.420 a symbol of the gospel. And that is why you see people who compromise on Christian marriage,

00:26:12.500 who compromise on gender roles, also compromising on different parts of the Bible,

00:26:17.320 because it's not just this physical reality. It's a spiritual reality. So that's why having a right

00:26:23.860 view of women in the church is important. It's much bigger than the politics of the day. It's much

00:26:29.280 bigger than the politics of Paul's day. It has to do with the gospel. Now, when I say it has to do with

00:26:34.240 the gospel, I am not trying to say that this is a salvation issue. Now, I will say that, like I've

00:26:39.240 said, compromising on this typically leads to compromising on other things, or it's typically

00:26:45.040 associated with compromising on other things. But I'm not saying that we can't honestly disagree

00:26:48.940 on this. And you're not saved. I'm not saying that it is a, I'm not saying that it's a,

00:26:55.400 it's a salvation issue because it's not. But I just want to make the point, the point in this

00:27:02.640 really whole episode that those of you, especially women who like me are initially thrown off,

00:27:09.260 we're initially perturbed. Like we don't really like these verses. We don't really like this idea.

00:27:13.560 The verses that say that you need to be quiet in church. You can't exercise authority that you

00:27:19.100 have to submit to your husband. I'm telling you this so that you know that I understand where

00:27:25.500 you're coming from, but we have to take a step back. We have to stop. We have to lay down our

00:27:30.480 pride and remind ourselves of the gospel, the beautifully, that is beautifully reflected in

00:27:35.580 the hierarchy of the church and of marriage, which was first demonstrated in history in the

00:27:40.700 creation and realized that, wow, thank you. Thank you, God, for doing this for us. That I get to be

00:27:45.820 a part of that. That I am so undeserving to be a part of Christ's church. I am so undeserving of

00:27:54.140 being, of playing a role in the kingdom of God. I am so undeserving of all of that. I will play any

00:28:00.400 role you want me to, God. I am humbled that you even want me. I'm humbled that you died for me. I will

00:28:05.920 do anything that you want me to do. Of course, thank you, God, for giving me this role. And thank

00:28:11.120 you for caring so much that you believe that my husband should love me as you love the church. That's

00:28:15.980 amazing. That should be our posture as women. One of gratitude, one of humility, one of wonder. As we

00:28:22.980 look at how God set up these structures to reflect the gospel, that should be our attitude. Not one of

00:28:28.420 pride, not one of arrogance, not one of insistence on our own way, not one of trying to fit into the

00:28:34.180 culture, but one of absolute awe that the God of the universe would have us play such a crucial

00:28:40.800 role. He didn't have to do that. He didn't have to save us. He didn't have to paint this beautiful

00:28:45.460 picture of Christ in the church and marriage and Adam and Eve. He didn't have to do all that, but he

00:28:49.140 did because he's a good and loving and faithful God. And if you are caught up, if you are caught up on

00:28:55.340 these verses, if you are caught up in all of these feminists telling you that these verses should be

00:29:01.960 thrown out because it's a part of the evil patriarchy, might I suggest, might I submit that

00:29:07.540 you are holding on to an idol that you need to let go of? That it is actually idolatry that is

00:29:13.580 telling you that in order to truly be a Christian or in order to truly love God or to truly be a part

00:29:19.740 of the body of Christ, that you have to be in the same teaching authority as a man. I would let go of

00:29:23.880 that idol. That would be my charge to you because it's against God's word and God's word is bigger

00:29:31.240 and better than all of us. And man or woman, we have to submit to it no matter what it says.

00:29:36.300 So I hope that that answers a lot of your questions. I'm sure that there's so many more

00:29:40.360 angles that we could talk through. There's a lot that we could talk about in that, but I at least

00:29:44.240 wanted to give you a primer to help you understand where I'm coming from. I'm asked about this all the

00:29:48.280 time and to give you the biblical foundation for what I believe about this, what God's word says.

00:29:53.940 Thanks for listening and I will see you next time.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 24, 2019

Ep 129 ｜ Women in the Church

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