Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 02, 2026


Ep 1311 ｜ Did John Piper Just Call for Open Borders？ X Controversy Explained


Episode Stats

Length

56 minutes

Words per Minute

170.6

Word Count

9,583

Sentence Count

633

Misogynist Sentences

24

Hate Speech Sentences

57


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.440 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. So
00:00:05.220 if you are watching this, you can see that the setting has changed. I'm in my home. Maybe
00:00:09.660 you're listening. You can tell it sounds a little bit different. I am recording this
00:00:13.380 Monday morning, a little addendum to today's episode, the rest of which was actually recorded
00:00:18.180 at the end of last week. So I've got a couple of things to say in light of the happenings
00:00:23.160 of the past few days. Number one, we will be talking about Iran, everything going on
00:00:28.260 there, all the considerations we should have as Christians, especially in light of our
00:00:32.700 eschatology or belief about the end times. Also the tragic events in Austin, Texas, how those
00:00:37.960 two things are possibly connected. So we'll be discussing all of that on Wednesday. I also
00:00:44.440 just wanted to add some clarity to the subject that we're about to discuss John Piper's post
00:00:49.220 with the immigration related Bible verse. So from all of the information that's come out
00:00:54.740 over the past few days, it does look like this was not an intentional commentary on the news cycle
00:01:02.080 or a reaction to Trump's state of the union address. In fact, John Piper seems to post this
00:01:09.520 verse every year in accordance with his Bible reading plan. Now you could say that there should
00:01:15.120 have been more consideration about the timing in light of recent events and all of that, but this was
00:01:20.100 not an intentional insertion of his opinion about immigration. However, the rest of the commentary
00:01:26.040 that we give, the response that we give to those who do try to wield this verse to make some kind of
00:01:31.620 liberal immigration point is very relevant, very necessary, will be helpful to you as you're
00:01:36.540 navigating these conversations. And the rest of the episode is also extremely prescient. Last week,
00:01:42.960 of course, we didn't know everything that would be going on in Iran, yet this episode is about the
00:01:48.760 position that America is in and how we should be thinking about that and how Christianity plays
00:01:55.020 such a key role in who we are and how we should think about our national identity and our place
00:02:01.500 in the world. So I just wanted to add that, give you as much information, as much clarity as possible.
00:02:06.420 And without further ado, let's get into the rest of today's episode.
00:02:11.520 CNN is releasing a new documentary about so-called Christian nationalism, where a journalist fearmongers
00:02:18.260 about classical Christian education and biblical marriage. But Christianity in America is not the
00:02:25.620 ideology you need to be afraid of. In fact, I will paint a picture for you of exactly what it looks
00:02:31.360 like when Christians refuse to engage in politics. We've got all of this and more on today's episode
00:02:36.940 of Relatable. Make sure you get your tickets to Share the Arrows at sharethearrows.com, Christian
00:02:42.120 Women's Conference, October 10th in Dallas, Texas. And make sure you subscribe on YouTube and you like
00:02:49.600 this show and you also leave a five-star review wherever you listen. All right, let's get into
00:02:55.360 today's episode. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.
00:03:10.540 Good news. God, the eternal plan of redemption is still, as ever, going off without a hitch.
00:03:17.100 Yay! Woo-hoo! I'm so glad about that because there's so much craziness going on in the world.
00:03:22.700 There's evil, it seems. Everywhere we look, there's so much darkness and sometimes it seems like the
00:03:27.560 darkness is winning. But nothing surprises God. Nothing takes Him aback. He's never wondering,
00:03:33.040 gosh, how did you make this mess? He's sovereign over all of it. And every second of every day,
00:03:37.800 His anger is kindling against evildoers. Psalm 37 reminds us that one day He is going to take
00:03:46.220 vengeance for His people. And He is going to fight on our behalf. And all of the blood that has ever
00:03:52.120 been shed by the innocent, by His chosen people, will be avenged. And we have that to look forward to.
00:03:59.780 It's really easy to think, why would God allow all of this suffering? Why would He allow all this pain?
00:04:04.280 That's something that you heard Shannon Bream and I talk about on Friday. And yet we know that He's not
00:04:10.260 actually doing nothing. That He has a plan. He has determined the day and the hour that He is
00:04:15.380 returning. And He will make all things right. That's a really good reason to be courageous.
00:04:23.000 Two reasons. One, the day of your death is determined by God. Missionary John Batten,
00:04:28.480 he spent years of his life being a missionary to this island of Aniwa, where these pagan tribes
00:04:35.300 lived. After 15 years of his work and the work of other missionaries, the entire island turned to
00:04:40.380 Christ. And he realized in the midst of the hardship that he had to endure there, the hatred that he
00:04:46.520 originally felt from these islanders, that he was immortal until God called him home. That there was
00:04:53.420 no weapon that could be formed against him that would prosper without God's will. So until the
00:05:00.520 day and the moment of your death, you are absolutely invincible. You are absolutely immortal.
00:05:05.680 Psalm 139 reminds us that all of our days were written out for us before any of them came to be.
00:05:11.320 And so there's not anything happening in your life that God's like, oh gosh, didn't see that coming.
00:05:15.860 Not sure how I'm going to avoid that. So you can be completely brave.
00:05:19.420 And then the second reason is that the day of victory has already been determined by God.
00:05:24.520 That everything will be made new, everything will be made right, and perfect justice will be enacted.
00:05:30.540 That's another reason why we can be courageous. So just remember your responsibility as a Christian,
00:05:36.280 as a mom, as a grandmother, as a single woman, as a father, whatever station of life you're in,
00:05:42.520 is to simply do the next right thing in faith, with excellence, and for the glory of God.
00:05:46.200 And remember, the kingdom of God is mostly advanced through the seemingly mundane acts of obedience,
00:05:53.980 the unseen and unsung acts of faithfulness by believers every single day.
00:06:00.120 Through our boldness, through our kindness, through our commitment to excellence,
00:06:03.680 through the love that we have for our neighbors, through sharing the gospel,
00:06:07.120 God's kingdom is advanced. And what a privilege it is that we get to be a part of that.
00:06:11.620 God doesn't need us, but he chooses to use us. So we can be as bold as lions because we serve the God
00:06:18.120 who has a victory and who has already planned all of our lives. And I'm just so thankful for that,
00:06:24.020 especially as I look to the headlines around the world and some of them that we're going to talk
00:06:28.360 about at the beginning. And the point that I want to drive home really in this entire episode,
00:06:33.560 but especially in some of these things that we're going to talk about at the top,
00:06:36.780 is how thankful we should be for one, the Lord, just that he gives us such a perfect roadmap in his
00:06:44.620 word of the life of godliness and how we can find satisfaction, where we can seek true justice,
00:06:50.780 what truth and clarity and all of these things look like, but also just in an earthly sense,
00:06:57.280 so thankful to live in the West, so thankful to live in a country that at least foundationally
00:07:03.580 believes in the Imago Dei, believes that we were all created by a God who has given us
00:07:09.840 inalienable rights. It's so easy to take that for granted and to think that this is just common
00:07:15.440 sense everywhere. It's not. I saw this horrific headline and it was originally tweeted out by
00:07:21.580 someone named Liza Rosen on X, and it's a daily mail headline. It says hundreds, this is very
00:07:27.600 disturbing, hundreds of dead newborn girls have been found dumped in garbage piles in Pakistan over the
00:07:33.160 last year as cultural preference for boys drives more parents to murder babies. Unfortunately,
00:07:39.920 this is something that occurs in all kinds of non-Western countries, and actually it occurs in
00:07:46.560 America today. We just don't do it after birth. It doesn't typically happen in this way. It happens
00:07:53.840 via abortion. It happens via eugenics. Some people use the IVF process to decide which gender they want
00:08:00.860 to give birth to first. So this is a very prevalent practice that happens all over the world. Now,
00:08:06.340 when we read something like this, our first instinct is that is barbarism. It sounds a lot like the one
00:08:12.840 child policy that happened in the 20th century in China. The boys were preferred over girls, but if you
00:08:19.100 had more than one child, you had to kill your child. Even if it was eighth, ninth month of pregnancy,
00:08:24.540 even if it was after birth, commit infanticide. And if you've heard me talk at all about this book by a
00:08:32.080 historian named Owen Backey, then you know what I'm talking about when I say exposure hills. Exposure
00:08:38.960 hills were these places in ancient pagan Rome where newborn unwanted babies were placed outside of the
00:08:45.720 city limits to die by exposure to the elements, to wild animals. This was a very prevalent, well-documented
00:08:53.520 practice in the ancient world because children weren't seen as full humans. They didn't possess what
00:09:00.840 the ancient Greek scholars at the time called the logos. And that is the ability to reason or to
00:09:05.940 rationalize. Only the adult free male did. Kids didn't. So they were basically seen as on the level of
00:09:11.540 animals and barbarians. And so mistreatment of them, whether it's the sexualization of them, they were very
00:09:17.460 often sold into prostitution, using them for child labor or killing them outright in or outside of
00:09:23.520 the womb, was done without moral qualm whatsoever. In fact, there was like a scholarly philosophical
00:09:29.160 justification for doing that. But Owen Backey chronicles the change in culture and the change
00:09:35.340 in the perspective on children 2,000 years ago. And he attributes this change of perspective
00:09:41.080 to Christians. Now, this concept of the Imago Dei already existed with the Hebrews, with the Israelites.
00:09:48.940 Genesis 1 says that God made us in his image. But Christians popularized this idea. And it was a
00:09:55.560 radical concept at the time, that none of the scholars and even the religious pagans of the time
00:10:01.940 believed, or even had the words to conceptualize, that all people have equal worth because they are
00:10:08.380 people. Not based on their status. Not based on whether they're a slave or free. Not based on their
00:10:15.020 income. Not based on their gender. Not based on their age. Not based on their intellect. Not based
00:10:21.500 on their political position. But just because they are people. No one aside from the Hebrews believed
00:10:29.680 that at the time. No one aside from the Hebrews that we know of had any issue whatsoever with child
00:10:38.360 sacrifice. It was God and his people that were distinct. And then when Christians came along
00:10:44.900 about 2,000 years ago, who were evangelistic in their faith, who weren't just Jews, but also Gentiles,
00:10:50.960 who were converts, who were going into the pagan world and saying, actually, this child sacrifice
00:10:56.200 that you're doing is not okay. Actually, all people have equal worth because of the Imago Dei,
00:11:02.380 because we're created by God, the one God. Actually, all of us are equally dead in sin,
00:11:07.840 apart from Christ, but all of us can be made alive in Christ by grace through faith.
00:11:11.740 This radically equalizing message that Christians preached wherever they went eventually changed how
00:11:18.620 the world saw people. Because these Christians, they worshiped a God that was so unlike the Roman
00:11:25.820 and Greek gods at the time. When this person that they called God, this Jesus of Nazareth,
00:11:32.620 Nazareth came to earth. He came to earth as an embryo. He was heralded by the kicks of an unborn
00:11:37.320 John the Baptist. He was worshiped as a newborn by the angels and by the wise men. And against the
00:11:43.840 protestation of his disciples said, let the little children come to me, such as these belong the
00:11:48.280 kingdom of heaven. That was a completely unheard of in the pagan world. And even among the Jewish
00:11:54.220 religious scholars at the time, an unheard of perspective on children, and certainly an unheard
00:12:00.220 of perspective on the divine. And these persistent and very strange Christians over time, everywhere
00:12:08.740 they went, as they preached the gospel, they said, the child sacrifice will end now. The child
00:12:13.940 sexualization will end now. The oppression of the poor and the sick and of women will end now. And so
00:12:20.740 they built the hospitals. They created the orphanages. They built the churches that had these foundling
00:12:26.220 wheels where parents of an unwanted child or a child that they couldn't care for, they'd be placed in
00:12:32.060 these wheels. And there would be Christians on the other side of the wall to turn the wheel and to catch
00:12:36.120 the baby and to care for the baby and to make sure the baby was adopted by loving parents. And eventually
00:12:41.220 these exposure hills and the pagan ancient world were stigmatized. And eventually they were criminalized.
00:12:48.180 This took decades and then centuries, but over time, Christians changed the game for children,
00:12:54.860 changed how the world saw people. And we so take this for granted in the West today. We think
00:13:03.600 that everyone kind of believes this. Like everyone has more compassion for children. Everyone has this
00:13:10.400 view of the poor or the view of the sick, this instinct that even liberals have, those who are pro-abortion,
00:13:18.200 there's a cognitive dissonance there, but even they would say they have extra compassion for vulnerable
00:13:23.220 kids. They have extra compassion for the elderly or the sick. That's kind of our instinct in the West,
00:13:29.660 but it's not based on human nature. It's based on the Western conscience that was forged specifically
00:13:36.860 by Christians. Christians changed the game. And when you don't have Christianity as your foundation,
00:13:44.900 all kinds of moral atrocities, especially against the powerless, are justified.
00:13:50.600 So what we see in Pakistan, what we've seen in China, what we see in the Middle East today,
00:13:56.540 that we know is disgusting and is depraved and is demonic, is not seen that way in most of the world
00:14:05.220 today. Because most of the world does not measure the worth of a person by the fact that they're a human,
00:14:12.060 but by all different kinds of arbitrary criteria. And when your worth as a human being is judged by this
00:14:20.100 arbitrary superficial criteria, then you get a Holocaust. You get widespread abortion. You get
00:14:27.480 killing babies just because they're unwanted. So I just want us to realize that what we still have,
00:14:34.340 as fragile as it might be in America, we still have the vestiges of a Christian conscience in
00:14:41.760 the West. And I do believe it is up to Christians to preserve that as much as possible. It's not about
00:14:50.380 Christofascism. It's not about building a theocracy in which people are forced to be Christians. It's
00:14:58.480 literally just about loving our neighbor. And if God's ways are better, like if God is the creator
00:15:05.060 and he's the authority over all of it, and he is the boss when it comes to what's right and what's
00:15:10.160 wrong, what's justice and what's not, then of course we want our policies to conform to that because we
00:15:15.800 love people. And if God is love, 1 John 4, 8, the most loving thing we can do, and even our laws can
00:15:23.480 do is agree with him and agree with what he thinks about life and people and worth and the
00:15:30.260 Imago Dei. Christians, yes, throughout history, of course, they were sharing the gospel. They were doing
00:15:37.900 all of these things, but they were necessarily, and by definition, by nature, I should say, culture
00:15:45.160 warriors. Maybe not on purpose, but they were infusing the culture with this countercultural radical
00:15:50.980 belief about human beings. And we in America here today have the same responsibility. We'll get more
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00:17:19.140 Okay, I also saw this other post, very disturbing, what I'm about to show you. It's a video.
00:17:27.880 And it's showing what's happening in Bangladesh, which is a largely Islamic community there. And
00:17:34.660 that's the same thing with Pakistan, by the way. This is not only a problem, what I'm about to show you
00:17:39.300 in what we were just talking about in Islamic countries. It's a problem in lots of countries,
00:17:45.300 Hindu countries, Buddhist countries, pagan countries. But it's especially prevalent in
00:17:51.060 Islam because Islam has such a diametrically opposed view of human worth and women and children
00:17:56.580 and their responsibility to righteousness and things like that.
00:18:00.420 But in Bangladesh, this is a report of something that's going on here. And I'll just play you,
00:18:07.420 I don't have to play the sound, but I'll describe it for you. It's basically like a dummy of a woman
00:18:14.140 and she's hanging by a noose in what looks like the town square. And she's wearing, this dummy is like
00:18:22.140 wearing female garb. And over the head of this dummy is like a black, uh, a black hood. And then
00:18:32.040 men are taking turns violently beating this dummy that is supposed to be like a woman. And apparently
00:18:38.360 they're practicing, like they have flip-flops and shoes in their hand. They're hitting her,
00:18:45.140 kicking her again, not a real person as much as violently as they possibly can. They're filming it
00:18:51.300 and they're laughing about it. And this is apparently supposed to, um, be protesting women
00:18:57.700 being given additional rights in the country, which of course, in these Islamic countries, women
00:19:01.560 don't really have rights because they're not seen as full people. What is interesting about this,
00:19:07.020 and this is the comment that I made on X is that not a single, I don't think you can correct me if I'm
00:19:13.380 wrong, but not a single liberal feminist in America would say no to welcoming any of these men into our
00:19:22.900 country. If these men were transported into our country today and they were under threat of being
00:19:29.880 deported by ICE, every single liberal feminist that you know would be protesting their deportation.
00:19:36.820 We would have Billie Eilish saying, no one is illegal on stolen land. Oh, no human being is illegal. We'd be
00:19:46.880 hearing that from celebrities. Until you grapple with the darkness of many of these cultures that we are
00:19:54.620 importing into the United States today, it's really easy to be in your gated community, to be in your
00:20:02.820 nice neighborhood. And to say, oh, no human being is illegal. We should just have open borders.
00:20:10.420 F ICE. Get ICE out. We shouldn't be deporting these people. It's really easy to say from your couch.
00:20:18.980 But when you think about the vulnerable people who are actually affected by this kind of culture,
00:20:24.400 by this kind of behavior, maybe, I don't know, just stop and think for a second.
00:20:30.240 If borderlessness is the way to go. There was a horrible study that I saw. I think Elon Musk reposted
00:20:38.980 it on X, and it was just talking about the increase of the sexual assaults in Britain. This is a huge
00:20:45.680 problem. And actually, we had Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the show several years ago. She is a former Muslim.
00:20:51.680 She has said now that she's converted to Christianity, which is amazing. But she wrote a book on this,
00:20:56.840 the pervasive problem of sexual assault in European countries because of mass migration of Muslims.
00:21:04.640 Am I saying every single Muslim is going to commit sexual assault? No. But in these communities,
00:21:10.000 the rates of sexual assault are much higher. And it's not because these guys are just rebels.
00:21:16.060 It's because they don't see it as rebellion. Because their worldview is different than ours.
00:21:20.220 Their view of human beings and what their responsibility is as men is not the same as
00:21:25.900 ours. This idea of chivalry in the West, in the United States, which I know is dwindling,
00:21:31.080 but again, the vestiges are still there. There's something in our American instinct that likes to
00:21:37.820 see a strong man caring for women and caring for children. This idea of self-sacrifice as leadership,
00:21:45.840 of using your strength to protect others and to guard the dignity of others. That is a Christian
00:21:53.180 idea. Okay. That's not just common sense, liberal classical democracy. That is Christianity that
00:21:59.500 gave you that. You take Christianity away. You don't get that anymore. I don't care. I'm not even
00:22:05.440 talking about right and left. I'm just talking about what is true about Christianity and what it has
00:22:11.780 given us. Now, a lot of people were mad, speaking of immigration, at John Piper recently. Just the
00:22:21.260 other day, he said, you shall treat, this is Leviticus 19.34, you shall treat the stranger who
00:22:27.220 sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself. For you were strangers
00:22:32.420 in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God. He said, Christians know the miserable bondage we are all in.
00:22:40.540 Well, John Piper got ratioed by a lot of people on X. I thought most of them were not rude. You have
00:22:49.180 people like my friend Megan Basham, respectively, pushing back against him. Katie Faust as well. A
00:22:54.560 lot of people I follow who were reading this as an indictment on Trump or an indictment on Trump's
00:23:01.740 celebration of defending our border and deporting illegal aliens. Now, I do not know if that is what
00:23:09.360 John Piper was talking about in the moment. If he just had this scheduled tweet put out, I will
00:23:17.520 defend John Piper more than I think many conservative evangelicals will. I think he's gotten it wrong
00:23:23.600 several times when he wades into the political discussion. I've been very clear about that over
00:23:27.740 the years. He's not a progressive, though. He's not a progressive. I'm not saying he's a Trump supporter,
00:23:33.620 but he's definitely not theologically progressive, and the man knows the Bible. Now, I think living in
00:23:40.540 Minneapolis and allowing his perspective to be skewed by liberal sources like people like Russell
00:23:48.180 Moore, unfortunately, has led him to saying some things that are undiscerning. I don't know his
00:23:52.880 motivation behind posting this, but I will take the opportunity to respond to this mentality because
00:23:58.560 a lot of people do use this verse in Leviticus to justify open borders, to say that deporting people
00:24:04.360 is wrong, to justify illegal immigration, and to say that deporting illegal immigrants, including
00:24:09.860 pedophiles, is somehow oppressing the sojourner. You see this used just like carte blanche as a
00:24:17.220 justification for condemning ICE or all border control. And so here was my response. I said,
00:24:23.080 maybe we are all reading too much into Piper's post, but for those who do use this passage to justify
00:24:30.360 illegal immigration or to argue against deportations, you should keep this verse in mind. This is a verse
00:24:35.880 that we've talked about, and it's Exodus 12, 49. There shall be one law for the native and for the
00:24:41.520 stranger who sojourns among you. Okay? One law. So if, as liberals do, and again, I'm not calling John
00:24:49.040 Piper liberal, but people who use that verse to justify illegal immigration, if we are going to
00:24:54.300 use Old Testament law as our basis for immigration law in America today, which seemingly only progressives
00:25:01.760 want to do, which is interesting, their own little fun form of Christian nationalism, then we need to
00:25:08.340 look at the whole thing because there was no tolerance of illegal immigration in ancient Israel.
00:25:13.560 None. If you were a migrant, I mean, there was lots of different definitions of sojourners and
00:25:21.040 foreigners and merchants just passing through and all of that. But if you were to live among the
00:25:26.200 Israelites, you were required to be circumcised. That would be a good deterrent, actually. Like if we
00:25:32.980 just told people, hey, if you're going to illegally immigrate into the United States at the border,
00:25:37.540 you're going to be circumcised. So if we want to apply Old Testament law to current
00:25:43.440 American immigration policy, that's a conversation to have. But they also had to follow the laws about
00:25:49.140 food and marriage and sexuality, every single one of them. We can also see throughout the Old
00:25:54.200 Testament, this principle. And I just thought of this today. I wish I would have written this in my
00:25:59.240 book, but something that we see over and over again in the Old Testament is that walllessness
00:26:04.580 lawlessness equals lawlessness. So without a border, without a wall, without a barrier of protection,
00:26:13.600 you get chaos. We can see this in the book of Nehemiah, how a strong border was a signal to the
00:26:20.600 enemies. Hey, don't mess with us. Don't mess with our women. Don't mess with our children, because this
00:26:26.360 is a symbol of God's provision for us. In fact, we read in Proverbs that a city or a man without
00:26:32.920 self-control is like a city without walls, because you're chaotic. You're a danger to those around
00:26:38.120 you and to yourself. Jeremiah 29, 7, as we've talked about before, urges the Israelite exiles
00:26:45.220 in Babylon to seek the welfare of the nation in which God has providentially placed them. And we
00:26:50.900 Christians are exiles on this earth, and we are to seek the welfare of the plot of earth in which God
00:26:57.620 has providentially placed us. And one of the ways that we can do that is to protect our borders,
00:27:02.720 because remember, nations and governments and laws were God's idea. They were all God's idea,
00:27:10.100 not our idea, because God is a God of order. And he created these modes of order, these spheres of order
00:27:17.460 and law and law enforcement for our good, because we actually don't thrive in chaos. You know that if you
00:27:23.280 have kids, your kids don't thrive in chaos. They thrive when they have parameters, when they have
00:27:27.300 boundaries, when they have a home with walls, and they say, you can only go this far. Yeah, they might
00:27:33.760 be a wild child and want to run, you know, 20 miles down the road, but you know that your fence,
00:27:41.540 that your boundaries of your property are for their protection, and so it is with us. Remember that God
00:27:48.220 placed us not in a jungle, but in a garden. What is the difference between a jungle and a garden?
00:27:53.360 Order. There are walls and parameters and rows in a garden, and we were called, Adam and Eve were
00:27:59.840 called to work it, or Adam was, to work it and to keep it. And I think that is still true today,
00:28:05.760 that we are to make orderly the world around us. And one way to do that is to protect our border.
00:28:11.500 You cannot protect your border if you're not deporting illegal immigrants, because you are
00:28:15.020 incentivizing lawlessness. And John Piper is a very smart person, and he knows his word very well,
00:28:22.320 and I think he loves the Lord his God with all of his heart, mind, soul, and strength.
00:28:26.320 So I don't assume to know more than him or to be wiser than him. There is a disconnect. I think
00:28:32.280 if this is the message he's trying to convey in this post, when it comes to connecting the word of
00:28:39.340 God to the political implications, my humble opinion. Because as we have just talked about,
00:28:45.540 like, immigration and the people we allow in our country, it really affects our neighbor,
00:28:51.520 especially the babies and the women and the vulnerable people in our country.
00:28:55.800 In light of this, all of this conversation, CNN is warning us about Christian nationalism. And I
00:29:05.020 want to respond to some of the things that they're saying, because we hear all the time,
00:29:08.940 the danger is Christian nationalism. But the definition of Christian nationalism is so fluid.
00:29:15.680 We've been talking about it on this show for years. And Vody Bauckham, the late Vody Bauckham,
00:29:21.540 whom I respected so much, he came on the show and talked about it. And we just kind of, like,
00:29:27.560 broke it down. What really, not according to the liberal media, that is Christian nationalism,
00:29:33.140 like, I'm not even sure how I would personally define it. But if you break down the words,
00:29:39.120 nationalism just means that you want to put the interests of your country first. It's not
00:29:44.440 automatically synonymous with Nazism or fascism. But I do believe that we actually have the
00:29:49.780 Christian responsibility to put the needs and the well-being of our citizens first. Again,
00:29:54.960 God created nations. Nations are like families. You don't hate your family just because, or you
00:30:00.040 don't hate your neighbors just because you lock your doors and you live inside a house. You just
00:30:03.900 love your family. And God has created these circles of affection and circles of priority for us,
00:30:09.680 for our good, especially for the good of children again. But I think that's true of Zimbabwe as well,
00:30:15.400 of China. Everyone should put their country first. So that's how I would define nationalism,
00:30:20.900 like, in comparison to globalism, which is what, we're going to have a global government and we're
00:30:26.100 trying to prioritize the needs of everyone equally. Absolutely impossible chaos. I'm anti-chaos. I'm an
00:30:32.560 anti-chaos person that can basically describe my politics. And then Christian, of course, we know what
00:30:39.160 Christian is, a belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so you believe in the gospel of Jesus
00:30:45.760 Christ. You believe in putting your country first. You believe as Christians that your Christian
00:30:49.900 worldview should impact all you think about policy and politics. And so you could describe it that way,
00:30:56.080 but some would describe it as theocracy, as trying to force people through law to believe what you do,
00:31:02.520 to practice what you do. People somehow inexplicably would call me a Christian nationalist
00:31:07.800 for literally no reason at all. But that is because people haven't actually tried to define it. So
00:31:14.140 that's what CNN, I think, is trying to do. But of course, they're warning against it. So they've got
00:31:18.160 a documentary that is called The Rise of Christian Nationalism, and it's apparently going to air in
00:31:23.840 just a couple of weeks. The CNN anchor behind the project, her name is Pamela Brown. She interviewed
00:31:29.600 Douglas Wilson. Doug Wilson is an Idaho pastor in Moscow, Idaho. He identifies as a Christian
00:31:36.060 nationalist. And she said, quote, the response to that report was overwhelming and highlighted the
00:31:41.940 need to better understand this movement working to redefine America as a Christian nation. So you
00:31:46.920 can already kind of see the bias in their language there, as if America doesn't have a Christian
00:31:51.180 foundation, which of course it does. But she goes on to say in the home, in a marriage, in schools,
00:31:56.280 and in government. This journalist, Brown, defines Christian nationalism as an ideology rooted in the
00:32:01.900 belief that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and that its laws and institutions
00:32:06.540 should reflect Christian values. Well, again, like I would be hard pressed to understand how a
00:32:14.840 Christian could argue against that. I mean, there's no such thing as neutrality. So it's either going to
00:32:21.600 be Christianity, Islam, secular progressivism. Now, I do think that we should have religious liberty.
00:32:27.560 I don't think we should force people to worship a certain way, to pray a certain way, or to be
00:32:31.960 Christian. But if a worldview always has to inform law, because it does, every law speaks to a moral
00:32:39.200 truth. People say you can't legislate morality. Of course you do. Every piece of legislation is a form
00:32:43.980 of morality. And our worldview is going to be reflected. Like, Jesus is king can't be compartmentalized,
00:32:51.420 just like the Muslim doesn't believe that their belief should be compartmentalized. Certainly,
00:32:55.540 the secular progressive doesn't believe that their belief about gender or abortion should be
00:32:59.240 compartmentalized. They're bringing the fullness of their belief system into the voting booth,
00:33:05.000 into their PTA meetings, into the city council, into their classrooms, into every public sphere that
00:33:12.000 they occupy. And Christian conservatives and Christian conservatives alone are told,
00:33:16.380 you can't do that. Everyone else can, but you can't do that. When you do that, that's a form of fascism.
00:33:22.100 Well, this journalist pointed to the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service as a time of, quote,
00:33:27.720 unprecedented alignment between Christian nationalists and the Trump administration.
00:33:33.320 And so, here she is saying that.
00:33:35.760 Sade.
00:33:36.360 Charlie Kirk, a conservative activist and prominent Christian nationalist,
00:33:41.040 was assassinated. It became a rallying call for those who believed in his message.
00:33:45.940 The memorial service was one of the most potent examples of the shift in our culture that we're
00:33:54.800 experiencing right now, where a large segment of American Christians are being activated by these
00:34:01.540 ideas, radicalized by these ideas that say that they are the persecuted ones and that they need to
00:34:07.800 stand up for Christians' rights.
00:34:09.780 Okay. So, Glenn Beck on there. I was also there at that memorial. It was an incredible day. I don't think
00:34:16.840 Charlie called himself a Christian nationalist. Maybe I could be wrong by that. But people who threw out
00:34:22.340 this moniker, it really is a scare tactic. It's to say, Allie Stuckey or Charlie Kirk, they're not just
00:34:29.520 Christians. They're a radical form of Christian, actually, that you should not be supportive of. And if you
00:34:34.720 listen to them, you're extreme too. This whole idea to say that true Christianity is only true,
00:34:41.120 genuine, Jesus-like Christianity if it's private and you vote progressive is so dumb. It's so dumb.
00:34:47.380 If you intertwine your faith with your politics, which, again, every single person of every faith
00:34:52.060 or non-faith does, then you are seen as some kind of extremist. And yes, Charlie did believe in the
00:34:59.320 gospel. And he talked about that wherever he went. But Charlie was actually like a very big tent guy,
00:35:06.060 a lot more than I am, by the way. And so if they are calling Charlie, who is a moderate in a lot of
00:35:11.220 ways, if they are calling him a Christian nationalist, then you're all Christian nationalists too.
00:35:18.500 So just get over your fear of being called that. Brown sounded skeptical as she described a church
00:35:24.880 community where women taught to submit to their husbands claimed they were living fulfilling lives
00:35:30.260 at night. Well, Pastor Wilson leads a growing network of conservative Christian churches and
00:35:34.740 preaches a strict biblical interpretation of various issues. His followers are taught to follow
00:35:39.820 specific gender roles where wives submit to their husbands and make being a mother and homemaker their
00:35:45.120 primary role, while the husband acts as the head of the household and makes the executive decisions for
00:35:49.940 the family. For my upcoming documentary, I embedded with a tight-knit conservative church
00:35:54.640 community in Southeast Texas that belongs to Wilson's network of churches. The women there
00:35:59.180 told me they're flourishing in their role as submissive wives.
00:36:04.500 She's shocked. Shocked, I tell you. I love how she said embedded, like she went as a spy. Like,
00:36:10.960 did she pretend to be a trad wife too, just so they would talk to her? Yeah. Wives who submit to
00:36:18.560 our husbands, I would say, are much happier than wives who don't. Who's happy in like a power struggle?
00:36:24.640 But by the way, also those of us who believe in Ephesians 5 because we believe in the authority
00:36:31.220 and inerrancy of God's word, we also know those of us who live in these marriages with our husbands
00:36:37.380 that we respect and love so much that submission isn't some scary word. Like, it's not like your
00:36:45.080 husband ruling over you with an iron fist. It's certainly not having opinions or not having a voice
00:36:51.320 or not having a personality. Like, it is your husband loving you and cherishing you and taking
00:36:57.260 up this mantle of making the very difficult leadership decisions for your family that I am
00:37:03.660 so glad every day I don't have to make. And so it's actually like a wonderful relief for women to have
00:37:12.240 this leader and to have this ultimate decision maker, especially when you're in a healthy marriage
00:37:16.280 where your husband respects your wisdom and respects you. And you talk through things together
00:37:22.020 and you really do have just like this wonderful love and friendship. And at the end of the day,
00:37:26.420 like he is the one who bears the responsibility for the spiritual formation of our family, who makes
00:37:31.200 the decisions for our family. It's a good thing. Of course, these women are thriving.
00:37:34.680 They feel happy. Like, they feel relieved by that. Can you, of course, have like a really mean husband
00:37:43.400 who is abusive in a variety of ways? Of course. But that happens. It's not Ephesians 5 that is causing
00:37:52.660 that. It is sin nature that is causing that. And as we just saw, like I'm much more interested to hear
00:37:58.960 about the views of women that these Middle Eastern migrants that we have been importing into our
00:38:04.860 country and into the West, like how does that affect marriage? Like how about a little expose
00:38:10.460 on some of the female genital mutilation that's happening in places like Minneapolis because of
00:38:15.780 the high concentration of Somalians there? Like if we want to talk about how women are treated,
00:38:20.360 maybe not like loving Christian marriages where they're making sourdough to try to find some kind
00:38:26.280 of hidden handmaid's tale narrative going on here. All right. I've got more to say on this,
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00:39:54.640 That's gogevity.com slash Allie. Now on the other end of this, Brown asked a panel of deconstructing
00:40:07.260 former trad wives. So already in this, as she is interviewing these former trad wives, she is kind
00:40:13.640 of conflating the women that she had talked to in the Southeast Texas church with these so-called
00:40:18.640 trad wives. And I will tell you what I think about that mistaken conflation in just a second. But
00:40:23.760 here is what this group of deconstructing women had to say about the quote unquote patriarchy,
00:40:29.420 South 11. Do you have concerns how that lifestyle is being glamorized on social media?
00:40:35.240 Yeah. Anyone who's an influencer trad wife is not a trad wife. It's a full-time job to put all of that
00:40:43.440 content online and make it look really good. Also, you're getting to use your voice. You're getting
00:40:47.460 your own independent money. So the people who are selling trad with free are not bearing the costs of
00:40:55.140 trad with free. All right. Y'all couldn't see it if you're just listening to this, but it says like
00:41:00.680 former member of Christian nationalist affiliated church. Now, I don't think that there is like an
00:41:06.960 official network of Christian nationalist churches. So who knows what that means? It could have been
00:41:11.100 your run-of-the-mill Southern Baptist church for all we know. I have no idea if these women were
00:41:17.720 influencers and if they were really trad wives, if they're still trad wives. This is another thing,
00:41:23.820 just like Christian nationalists, that I think is misdefined by many. When I talk about trad wife,
00:41:32.560 I've been talking about the trad wife trend for probably going on three years now, trying to
00:41:37.620 remind people that, hey, being a so-called trad wife, so the things that you're seeing on TikTok and
00:41:43.400 Instagram about making sourdough and raising chickens and homeschooling your kids, that is not
00:41:51.140 synonymous with being a biblical wife. There's nothing wrong with those things. In fact, I think
00:41:55.360 there can be great benefits to doing all of those things, but that's not what it means to be a
00:42:00.980 Christian. And actually, if it's just a fetish for some people on TikTok, which by the way, it is,
00:42:06.880 there are literal trad wives who dress up in 1950s stuff. It's like got a very sexual undertone to it.
00:42:14.880 And then you have those that are really just influencers, and they're really just kind of
00:42:18.840 using the aesthetic of it to try to get sponsor deals and to get brand deals. And the person who
00:42:25.600 was just talking right there is right. That is not traditional. Like that really is just kind of a
00:42:30.960 grift. And people who do that, who call themselves stay-at-home moms and call themselves homeschooling
00:42:35.980 moms, but who are curating every single mundane moment and packaging it for social media are probably
00:42:43.300 spending much less time with their kids than say the woman who is like a part-time secretary or a
00:42:49.880 virtual assistant, or maybe has an Etsy shop where she's selling stuff, like real buying and selling
00:42:56.700 type job. So that of course is true. I think it's really important to know that biblical womanhood can
00:43:02.600 be done in the middle of Manhattan, that it can be done in the suburbs, that it can be done anywhere in
00:43:08.600 the world at any time. And Christian virtue, submitting to your husband, loving your children,
00:43:14.920 prioritizing your home, doesn't have to have any particular aesthetic. And I had a lot of people
00:43:21.240 who are in this camp, by the way, the so-called Theobros that think that they're like so tough and
00:43:27.200 masculine and all of this stuff tell me that I'm being a feminist for saying that. No, I just want to
00:43:32.420 remind Christians that the Bible sets the standard, not Instagram. I know. So crazy to say that. So
00:43:39.660 yeah, I don't love the so-called trad wife movement either, but conflating that as CNN is with true
00:43:46.000 Christian marriage, which has existed for 2000 years. One man, one woman, the woman primarily discipling,
00:43:55.280 teaching the children and the man protecting the women and children or the wife and children
00:44:01.100 and the wife submitting to the husband. Yeah, that has nothing to do with the trad wife trend. That's
00:44:05.780 just what Christian, that's just what Christian marriage is. So much of this whole Christian
00:44:11.960 nationalist thing is highlighting basic tenets of Christianity as if they are new or extreme
00:44:18.300 and conflating them with new and extreme things to try to make it seem like that.
00:44:22.920 Um, so here's my response to some of this, uh, to some of this stuff, this whole Christian
00:44:31.920 nationalist trend, which we'll see more hopefully of, uh, the documentary soon, but let me pause
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00:45:52.920 Brown also spoke with teachers and administrators at a classical Christian school. She interviewed
00:45:59.940 David Goodwin. He is the president of the Association of Classical Christian Schools.
00:46:04.520 And I guess she believes that classical Christian education is a part of Christian nationalism. Now,
00:46:10.040 if you know anything about classical Christian education, it starts with grammar. That's like
00:46:17.800 the lower school is grammar. And then middle school is logic. And then the upper school is rhetoric. I think
00:46:25.720 I have that correct. And that kind of shows you the what the foundation is of what they're learning at
00:46:32.100 each stage. Not that they're only actually learning grammar. They're learning all different kinds of
00:46:38.080 things. But it is on the basis of this classical model of education that, yes, is Christian in
00:46:45.120 nature. Not all classical schools are Christian. But these classical Christian schools are based on
00:46:50.640 the word of God. But everything goes back to what is actually true. And the hope is by the time they
00:46:56.440 graduate that they can argue their way there, that they can defend what they believe. I wish I had had a
00:47:04.540 classical Christian education because you really just, you learn how to debate so well and to defend
00:47:10.420 your belief system. And even math is intertwined with the knowledge of the authority of the God of
00:47:16.440 the universe who made numbers and patterns. So anyway, I guess that's scary to CNN. And here's that part of
00:47:24.120 the documentary Sat 12.
00:47:25.260 What do you hope the graduates will go out and do in America?
00:47:29.560 Live faithfully wherever they are.
00:47:32.840 You would like to see them in positions of power, naturally.
00:47:37.680 We're glad when they get there.
00:47:39.660 And classical Christian schools already have some powerful advocates,
00:47:43.280 like Secretary of Defense Pete Hexeth.
00:47:46.780 Okay. Like, what are we trying to say? You would like to see them in positions of power.
00:47:54.200 Are you telling me that you don't want to see someone who shares your worldview in a position of
00:48:00.100 influence in a position of lawmaking? Everyone thinks that they're right. Everyone does. You
00:48:05.000 wouldn't think the things you do if you didn't think that what you believe is true. And you believe
00:48:10.000 that your beliefs are not only true, but they're good. And you believe that other people should
00:48:14.940 believe the things that you do. And so, of course, you want the people who are making laws and who are
00:48:20.800 influencing the future of our country to share your worldview. By the way, all Christians should believe this
00:48:26.220 because God's ways are better. And so, it's not some nefarious thing out there. The Islamification
00:48:32.940 of America is much scarier, is much more foreign to us, and has much more tragic implications than
00:48:40.880 Christians just being Christians. Christians have always cared about the education of our children.
00:48:45.480 Like, someone's going to disciple your kids. Is it going to be the secular progressive who believes
00:48:51.460 that you can be born in the wrong body? Or is it going to be the person who shares your worldview,
00:48:57.880 who believes that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life? It's really not that crazy. It's really
00:49:02.180 not that crazy. Now, the question, was America founded as a Christian country? Well, you'll hear a lot of
00:49:11.800 people say that America wasn't, that it was founded from a secular perspective, but that's not true.
00:49:17.680 It was written from a theistic worldview. It was not written from a secular one. We can read,
00:49:24.080 in the Declaration of Independence, that the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature
00:49:27.680 and of nature's God entitled them. Okay? So, we can see that, what the founders believed about the
00:49:33.700 human being and where we get rights. And, of course, we all know this. We hold these truths to be
00:49:38.820 self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain
00:49:43.860 unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
00:49:51.320 Now, of course, we also know that there is a First Amendment, that we are to have religious liberty.
00:49:58.560 We know that in the letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist, there is this principle of the
00:50:03.540 separation of church and state, but that principle is to protect the church, not just the state. And
00:50:09.440 there is no separation of God and law, because that is, again, impossible. If we look at the state
00:50:15.840 constitutions—actually, I'm not even going to argue this. I'm just going to show you Charlie at his best
00:50:20.780 when he was talking about just this Christian thread that we see woven through not only our own
00:50:28.120 founding documents as a country, but also the early state constitutions, nine of the 13 colonies were
00:50:34.380 strictly Christian governed. Here's top 13. You need to read the state constitutions before
00:50:39.900 anything else. Nine out of 13 of the original states required you to be a Bible-believing Christian
00:50:43.960 to serve in government. 13 out of 13 required a declaration of faith. Nine out of 13 required
00:50:48.200 you to be a Protestant, except Maryland, which was Catholic, which still required a declaration of
00:50:52.480 faith. And almost every single one of the original state constitutions, Pennsylvania included,
00:50:57.360 they had, I profess Lord and Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in the original state constitutions.
00:51:03.660 So remember, we're a collection of states before that. Secondly, 55 out of 56 of the original signers
00:51:09.960 of the declaration were Bible-believing church-attending Christians. You asked about common
00:51:13.220 law. So common law is inherited from Blackstone, who was Christian. Common law is an outgrowth of the
00:51:18.720 scriptures. John Adams seamlessly said the constitution was only written for a moral and religious
00:51:22.880 people. It was wholly inadequate for the people of any other. The body politic of America was
00:51:27.260 so Christian and was so Protestant that our form and structure of government was built for the
00:51:32.100 people that believed in Christ our Lord. Man, we lost a really good one. But for anyone who thinks
00:51:40.520 that this whole movement is somehow strange or extreme, in many ways, it's just how Christians
00:51:47.000 have always been. And I think even Christians who are like, oh, no, no, I definitely don't want
00:51:51.140 Christianity represented in the public square. That is the historic anomaly. That is the strange thing.
00:51:57.640 Like, that is the one that you're going to have to, like, logically explain to me. We've got to, like,
00:52:02.760 think a little bit harder about the difference between just infusing what is good, right, and true
00:52:07.500 into our politics and some, like, scary theocracy. And look, some people who are in this realm who call
00:52:15.340 themselves Christian nationalists, I do not align with, because I also think that they're silly
00:52:20.860 grifters who, like, really pretend like they're on the front lines of some battle. And I just don't
00:52:26.740 theologically and in probably some ways politically align with them. So I'm not even calling myself as,
00:52:32.800 like, a member of any particular organized movement here. I just think that this fear-mongering
00:52:38.960 surrounding Christians wanting to infuse our faith into politics is really, really silly.
00:52:43.980 And it's a manipulation tactic against you, Christian, to say that you and you alone,
00:52:50.660 conservative Christian, should not be able to bring your faith into the public square,
00:52:55.200 but everyone else can. When that happens, when the Christian foundation is swept out from under us,
00:53:01.800 bad things go on. As we talked about at the beginning of the show, politics matter because
00:53:07.340 policy matters because people matter. Politics affects policy. Policy affects people. People matter to
00:53:13.340 God and therefore they have to matter to us. All right. We've just got a little bit more to talk
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00:54:02.680 Okay. Before we end this episode, I guess it would be fitting to say, Christian, go vote.
00:54:12.840 Christians, you should bring the fullness of your worldview into the voting booth. You should
00:54:16.920 vote your conscience. And remember, voting is a decision. It is not. You're not voting for someone
00:54:26.740 based on vibes. You're not voting for a Valentine. As I've heard others say before, you are not voting
00:54:33.740 for a perfect person. You are voting, if you're a Republican voting in the primary this week,
00:54:39.520 tomorrow, then you are voting for the person that you think can best defeat the Democrat in November.
00:54:46.160 Okay? And that's important. I mean, baby's lives depend on that. Justice depends on that.
00:54:50.400 Um, there is public safety that can depend on that. Again, policymakers matter because policy
00:54:58.440 matters. And so who you put in power and how you involve yourself in politics really does matter.
00:55:03.780 And you might not think these local elections matter. These local elections have more of an
00:55:08.060 effect on your life than the federal elections do. And so just ensure that you're going out to vote
00:55:15.380 tomorrow. It's primary day. You should have already voted. I'll just chastise you for a second.
00:55:20.180 If you haven't voted yet, you should have already voted. You never wait until voting day because
00:55:23.860 you never know what's going to happen. You want to early vote as early as you possibly can.
00:55:28.040 I'm looking at everyone in this room, everyone in this room, make sure JC's voted, make sure that
00:55:34.680 you vote. You will be in trouble if you don't vote. Um, and this is a wonderful privilege and right
00:55:41.220 that we get to exercise that not everyone around the world gets to. So while we still can make your
00:55:47.000 voice known, vote for the best candidate that's on the table, the one that is most likely to beat the
00:55:52.540 Democrat in November. That's my opinion anyway. All right. Um, we've got a lot to talk about on
00:55:58.660 Wednesday, so make sure you tune in then.
00:56:00.340 We'll see you next time.
00:56:01.340 Bye.
00:56:02.340 Bye.
00:56:03.340 Bye.
00:56:04.340 Bye.
00:56:05.340 Bye.
00:56:06.340 Bye.
00:56:07.340 Bye.
00:56:08.340 Bye.