Ep 1311 ｜ Did John Piper Just Call for Open Borders？ X Controversy Explained
Episode Stats
Harmful content
Misogyny
24
sentences flagged
Toxicity
13
sentences flagged
Hate speech
57
sentences flagged
Summary
In light of the recent events in Iran and the tragic events in Austin, Texas, what does it mean for Christians to be courageous in the face of evil? What does it say about our national identity and our place in the world as Christians?
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. So
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if you are watching this, you can see that the setting has changed. I'm in my home. Maybe
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you're listening. You can tell it sounds a little bit different. I am recording this
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Monday morning, a little addendum to today's episode, the rest of which was actually recorded
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at the end of last week. So I've got a couple of things to say in light of the happenings
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of the past few days. Number one, we will be talking about Iran, everything going on
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there, all the considerations we should have as Christians, especially in light of our
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eschatology or belief about the end times. Also the tragic events in Austin, Texas, how those
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two things are possibly connected. So we'll be discussing all of that on Wednesday. I also
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just wanted to add some clarity to the subject that we're about to discuss John Piper's post
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with the immigration related Bible verse. So from all of the information that's come out
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over the past few days, it does look like this was not an intentional commentary on the news cycle
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or a reaction to Trump's state of the union address. In fact, John Piper seems to post this
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verse every year in accordance with his Bible reading plan. Now you could say that there should
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have been more consideration about the timing in light of recent events and all of that, but this was
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not an intentional insertion of his opinion about immigration. However, the rest of the commentary
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that we give, the response that we give to those who do try to wield this verse to make some kind of
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liberal immigration point is very relevant, very necessary, will be helpful to you as you're
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navigating these conversations. And the rest of the episode is also extremely prescient. Last week,
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of course, we didn't know everything that would be going on in Iran, yet this episode is about the
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position that America is in and how we should be thinking about that and how Christianity plays
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such a key role in who we are and how we should think about our national identity and our place
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in the world. So I just wanted to add that, give you as much information, as much clarity as possible.
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And without further ado, let's get into the rest of today's episode.
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CNN is releasing a new documentary about so-called Christian nationalism, where a journalist fearmongers
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about classical Christian education and biblical marriage. But Christianity in America is not the
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ideology you need to be afraid of. In fact, I will paint a picture for you of exactly what it looks
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like when Christians refuse to engage in politics. We've got all of this and more on today's episode
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of Relatable. Make sure you get your tickets to Share the Arrows at sharethearrows.com, Christian
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Women's Conference, October 10th in Dallas, Texas. And make sure you subscribe on YouTube and you like
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this show and you also leave a five-star review wherever you listen. All right, let's get into
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today's episode. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.
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Good news. God, the eternal plan of redemption is still, as ever, going off without a hitch.
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Yay! Woo-hoo! I'm so glad about that because there's so much craziness going on in the world.
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There's evil, it seems. Everywhere we look, there's so much darkness and sometimes it seems like the
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darkness is winning. But nothing surprises God. Nothing takes Him aback. He's never wondering,
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gosh, how did you make this mess? He's sovereign over all of it. And every second of every day,
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His anger is kindling against evildoers. Psalm 37 reminds us that one day He is going to take
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vengeance for His people. And He is going to fight on our behalf. And all of the blood that has ever
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been shed by the innocent, by His chosen people, will be avenged. And we have that to look forward to.
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It's really easy to think, why would God allow all of this suffering? Why would He allow all this pain?
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That's something that you heard Shannon Bream and I talk about on Friday. And yet we know that He's not
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actually doing nothing. That He has a plan. He has determined the day and the hour that He is
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returning. And He will make all things right. That's a really good reason to be courageous.
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Two reasons. One, the day of your death is determined by God. Missionary John Batten,
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he spent years of his life being a missionary to this island of Aniwa, where these pagan tribes
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lived. After 15 years of his work and the work of other missionaries, the entire island turned to
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Christ. And he realized in the midst of the hardship that he had to endure there, the hatred that he
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originally felt from these islanders, that he was immortal until God called him home. That there was
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no weapon that could be formed against him that would prosper without God's will. So until the
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day and the moment of your death, you are absolutely invincible. You are absolutely immortal.
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Psalm 139 reminds us that all of our days were written out for us before any of them came to be.
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And so there's not anything happening in your life that God's like, oh gosh, didn't see that coming.
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Not sure how I'm going to avoid that. So you can be completely brave.
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And then the second reason is that the day of victory has already been determined by God.
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That everything will be made new, everything will be made right, and perfect justice will be enacted.
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That's another reason why we can be courageous. So just remember your responsibility as a Christian,
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as a mom, as a grandmother, as a single woman, as a father, whatever station of life you're in,
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is to simply do the next right thing in faith, with excellence, and for the glory of God.
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And remember, the kingdom of God is mostly advanced through the seemingly mundane acts of obedience,
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the unseen and unsung acts of faithfulness by believers every single day.
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Through our boldness, through our kindness, through our commitment to excellence,
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through the love that we have for our neighbors, through sharing the gospel,
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God's kingdom is advanced. And what a privilege it is that we get to be a part of that.
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God doesn't need us, but he chooses to use us. So we can be as bold as lions because we serve the God
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who has a victory and who has already planned all of our lives. And I'm just so thankful for that,
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especially as I look to the headlines around the world and some of them that we're going to talk
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about at the beginning. And the point that I want to drive home really in this entire episode,
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but especially in some of these things that we're going to talk about at the top,
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is how thankful we should be for one, the Lord, just that he gives us such a perfect roadmap in his
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word of the life of godliness and how we can find satisfaction, where we can seek true justice,
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what truth and clarity and all of these things look like, but also just in an earthly sense,
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so thankful to live in the West, so thankful to live in a country that at least foundationally
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believes in the Imago Dei, believes that we were all created by a God who has given us
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inalienable rights. It's so easy to take that for granted and to think that this is just common
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sense everywhere. It's not. I saw this horrific headline and it was originally tweeted out by
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someone named Liza Rosen on X, and it's a daily mail headline. It says hundreds, this is very
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disturbing, hundreds of dead newborn girls have been found dumped in garbage piles in Pakistan over the
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last year as cultural preference for boys drives more parents to murder babies. Unfortunately,
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this is something that occurs in all kinds of non-Western countries, and actually it occurs in
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America today. We just don't do it after birth. It doesn't typically happen in this way. It happens
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via abortion. It happens via eugenics. Some people use the IVF process to decide which gender they want
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to give birth to first. So this is a very prevalent practice that happens all over the world. Now,
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when we read something like this, our first instinct is that is barbarism. It sounds a lot like the one
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child policy that happened in the 20th century in China. The boys were preferred over girls, but if you
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had more than one child, you had to kill your child. Even if it was eighth, ninth month of pregnancy,
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even if it was after birth, commit infanticide. And if you've heard me talk at all about this book by a
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historian named Owen Backey, then you know what I'm talking about when I say exposure hills. Exposure
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hills were these places in ancient pagan Rome where newborn unwanted babies were placed outside of the
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city limits to die by exposure to the elements, to wild animals. This was a very prevalent, well-documented
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practice in the ancient world because children weren't seen as full humans. They didn't possess what
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the ancient Greek scholars at the time called the logos. And that is the ability to reason or to
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rationalize. Only the adult free male did. Kids didn't. So they were basically seen as on the level of
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animals and barbarians. And so mistreatment of them, whether it's the sexualization of them, they were very
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often sold into prostitution, using them for child labor or killing them outright in or outside of
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the womb, was done without moral qualm whatsoever. In fact, there was like a scholarly philosophical
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justification for doing that. But Owen Backey chronicles the change in culture and the change
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in the perspective on children 2,000 years ago. And he attributes this change of perspective
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to Christians. Now, this concept of the Imago Dei already existed with the Hebrews, with the Israelites.
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Genesis 1 says that God made us in his image. But Christians popularized this idea. And it was a
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radical concept at the time, that none of the scholars and even the religious pagans of the time
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believed, or even had the words to conceptualize, that all people have equal worth because they are
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people. Not based on their status. Not based on whether they're a slave or free. Not based on their
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income. Not based on their gender. Not based on their age. Not based on their intellect. Not based
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on their political position. But just because they are people. No one aside from the Hebrews believed
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that at the time. No one aside from the Hebrews that we know of had any issue whatsoever with child
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sacrifice. It was God and his people that were distinct. And then when Christians came along
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about 2,000 years ago, who were evangelistic in their faith, who weren't just Jews, but also Gentiles,
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who were converts, who were going into the pagan world and saying, actually, this child sacrifice
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that you're doing is not okay. Actually, all people have equal worth because of the Imago Dei,
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because we're created by God, the one God. Actually, all of us are equally dead in sin,
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apart from Christ, but all of us can be made alive in Christ by grace through faith.
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This radically equalizing message that Christians preached wherever they went eventually changed how
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the world saw people. Because these Christians, they worshiped a God that was so unlike the Roman
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and Greek gods at the time. When this person that they called God, this Jesus of Nazareth,
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Nazareth came to earth. He came to earth as an embryo. He was heralded by the kicks of an unborn
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John the Baptist. He was worshiped as a newborn by the angels and by the wise men. And against the
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protestation of his disciples said, let the little children come to me, such as these belong the
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kingdom of heaven. That was a completely unheard of in the pagan world. And even among the Jewish
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religious scholars at the time, an unheard of perspective on children, and certainly an unheard
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of perspective on the divine. And these persistent and very strange Christians over time, everywhere
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they went, as they preached the gospel, they said, the child sacrifice will end now. The child
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sexualization will end now. The oppression of the poor and the sick and of women will end now. And so
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they built the hospitals. They created the orphanages. They built the churches that had these foundling
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wheels where parents of an unwanted child or a child that they couldn't care for, they'd be placed in
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these wheels. And there would be Christians on the other side of the wall to turn the wheel and to catch
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the baby and to care for the baby and to make sure the baby was adopted by loving parents. And eventually
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these exposure hills and the pagan ancient world were stigmatized. And eventually they were criminalized.
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This took decades and then centuries, but over time, Christians changed the game for children,
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changed how the world saw people. And we so take this for granted in the West today. We think
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that everyone kind of believes this. Like everyone has more compassion for children. Everyone has this
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view of the poor or the view of the sick, this instinct that even liberals have, those who are pro-abortion,
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there's a cognitive dissonance there, but even they would say they have extra compassion for vulnerable
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kids. They have extra compassion for the elderly or the sick. That's kind of our instinct in the West,
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but it's not based on human nature. It's based on the Western conscience that was forged specifically
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by Christians. Christians changed the game. And when you don't have Christianity as your foundation,
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all kinds of moral atrocities, especially against the powerless, are justified.
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So what we see in Pakistan, what we've seen in China, what we see in the Middle East today,
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that we know is disgusting and is depraved and is demonic, is not seen that way in most of the world
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today. Because most of the world does not measure the worth of a person by the fact that they're a human,
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but by all different kinds of arbitrary criteria. And when your worth as a human being is judged by this
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arbitrary superficial criteria, then you get a Holocaust. You get widespread abortion. You get
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killing babies just because they're unwanted. So I just want us to realize that what we still have,
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as fragile as it might be in America, we still have the vestiges of a Christian conscience in
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the West. And I do believe it is up to Christians to preserve that as much as possible. It's not about
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Christofascism. It's not about building a theocracy in which people are forced to be Christians. It's
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literally just about loving our neighbor. And if God's ways are better, like if God is the creator
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and he's the authority over all of it, and he is the boss when it comes to what's right and what's
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wrong, what's justice and what's not, then of course we want our policies to conform to that because we
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love people. And if God is love, 1 John 4, 8, the most loving thing we can do, and even our laws can
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do is agree with him and agree with what he thinks about life and people and worth and the
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Imago Dei. Christians, yes, throughout history, of course, they were sharing the gospel. They were doing
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all of these things, but they were necessarily, and by definition, by nature, I should say, culture
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warriors. Maybe not on purpose, but they were infusing the culture with this countercultural radical
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belief about human beings. And we in America here today have the same responsibility. We'll get more
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Okay, I also saw this other post, very disturbing, what I'm about to show you. It's a video.
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And it's showing what's happening in Bangladesh, which is a largely Islamic community there. And
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that's the same thing with Pakistan, by the way. This is not only a problem, what I'm about to show you
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in what we were just talking about in Islamic countries. It's a problem in lots of countries,
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Hindu countries, Buddhist countries, pagan countries. But it's especially prevalent in
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Islam because Islam has such a diametrically opposed view of human worth and women and children
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and their responsibility to righteousness and things like that.
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But in Bangladesh, this is a report of something that's going on here. And I'll just play you,
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I don't have to play the sound, but I'll describe it for you. It's basically like a dummy of a woman
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and she's hanging by a noose in what looks like the town square. And she's wearing, this dummy is like
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wearing female garb. And over the head of this dummy is like a black, uh, a black hood. And then
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men are taking turns violently beating this dummy that is supposed to be like a woman. And apparently
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they're practicing, like they have flip-flops and shoes in their hand. They're hitting her,
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kicking her again, not a real person as much as violently as they possibly can. They're filming it
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and they're laughing about it. And this is apparently supposed to, um, be protesting women
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being given additional rights in the country, which of course, in these Islamic countries, women
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don't really have rights because they're not seen as full people. What is interesting about this,
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and this is the comment that I made on X is that not a single, I don't think you can correct me if I'm
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wrong, but not a single liberal feminist in America would say no to welcoming any of these men into our
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country. If these men were transported into our country today and they were under threat of being
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deported by ICE, every single liberal feminist that you know would be protesting their deportation.
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We would have Billie Eilish saying, no one is illegal on stolen land. Oh, no human being is illegal. We'd be
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hearing that from celebrities. Until you grapple with the darkness of many of these cultures that we are
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importing into the United States today, it's really easy to be in your gated community, to be in your
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nice neighborhood. And to say, oh, no human being is illegal. We should just have open borders.
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F ICE. Get ICE out. We shouldn't be deporting these people. It's really easy to say from your couch.
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But when you think about the vulnerable people who are actually affected by this kind of culture,
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by this kind of behavior, maybe, I don't know, just stop and think for a second.
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If borderlessness is the way to go. There was a horrible study that I saw. I think Elon Musk reposted
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it on X, and it was just talking about the increase of the sexual assaults in Britain. This is a huge
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problem. And actually, we had Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the show several years ago. She is a former Muslim.
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She has said now that she's converted to Christianity, which is amazing. But she wrote a book on this,
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the pervasive problem of sexual assault in European countries because of mass migration of Muslims.
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Am I saying every single Muslim is going to commit sexual assault? No. But in these communities,
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the rates of sexual assault are much higher. And it's not because these guys are just rebels.
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It's because they don't see it as rebellion. Because their worldview is different than ours.
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Their view of human beings and what their responsibility is as men is not the same as
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ours. This idea of chivalry in the West, in the United States, which I know is dwindling,
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but again, the vestiges are still there. There's something in our American instinct that likes to
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see a strong man caring for women and caring for children. This idea of self-sacrifice as leadership,
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of using your strength to protect others and to guard the dignity of others. That is a Christian
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idea. Okay. That's not just common sense, liberal classical democracy. That is Christianity that
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gave you that. You take Christianity away. You don't get that anymore. I don't care. I'm not even
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talking about right and left. I'm just talking about what is true about Christianity and what it has
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given us. Now, a lot of people were mad, speaking of immigration, at John Piper recently. Just the
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other day, he said, you shall treat, this is Leviticus 19.34, you shall treat the stranger who
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sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself. For you were strangers
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in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God. He said, Christians know the miserable bondage we are all in.
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Well, John Piper got ratioed by a lot of people on X. I thought most of them were not rude. You have
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people like my friend Megan Basham, respectively, pushing back against him. Katie Faust as well. A
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lot of people I follow who were reading this as an indictment on Trump or an indictment on Trump's
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celebration of defending our border and deporting illegal aliens. Now, I do not know if that is what
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John Piper was talking about in the moment. If he just had this scheduled tweet put out, I will
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defend John Piper more than I think many conservative evangelicals will. I think he's gotten it wrong
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several times when he wades into the political discussion. I've been very clear about that over
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the years. He's not a progressive, though. He's not a progressive. I'm not saying he's a Trump supporter,
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but he's definitely not theologically progressive, and the man knows the Bible. Now, I think living in
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Minneapolis and allowing his perspective to be skewed by liberal sources like people like Russell
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Moore, unfortunately, has led him to saying some things that are undiscerning. I don't know his
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motivation behind posting this, but I will take the opportunity to respond to this mentality because
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a lot of people do use this verse in Leviticus to justify open borders, to say that deporting people
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is wrong, to justify illegal immigration, and to say that deporting illegal immigrants, including
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pedophiles, is somehow oppressing the sojourner. You see this used just like carte blanche as a
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justification for condemning ICE or all border control. And so here was my response. I said,
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maybe we are all reading too much into Piper's post, but for those who do use this passage to justify
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illegal immigration or to argue against deportations, you should keep this verse in mind. This is a verse
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that we've talked about, and it's Exodus 12, 49. There shall be one law for the native and for the
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stranger who sojourns among you. Okay? One law. So if, as liberals do, and again, I'm not calling John
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Piper liberal, but people who use that verse to justify illegal immigration, if we are going to
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use Old Testament law as our basis for immigration law in America today, which seemingly only progressives
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want to do, which is interesting, their own little fun form of Christian nationalism, then we need to
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look at the whole thing because there was no tolerance of illegal immigration in ancient Israel.
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None. If you were a migrant, I mean, there was lots of different definitions of sojourners and
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foreigners and merchants just passing through and all of that. But if you were to live among the
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Israelites, you were required to be circumcised. That would be a good deterrent, actually. Like if we
1.00
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just told people, hey, if you're going to illegally immigrate into the United States at the border,
0.95
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you're going to be circumcised. So if we want to apply Old Testament law to current
0.96
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American immigration policy, that's a conversation to have. But they also had to follow the laws about
00:25:49.140
food and marriage and sexuality, every single one of them. We can also see throughout the Old
00:25:54.200
Testament, this principle. And I just thought of this today. I wish I would have written this in my
00:25:59.240
book, but something that we see over and over again in the Old Testament is that walllessness
00:26:04.580
lawlessness equals lawlessness. So without a border, without a wall, without a barrier of protection,
00:26:13.600
you get chaos. We can see this in the book of Nehemiah, how a strong border was a signal to the
00:26:20.600
enemies. Hey, don't mess with us. Don't mess with our women. Don't mess with our children, because this
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00:26:26.360
is a symbol of God's provision for us. In fact, we read in Proverbs that a city or a man without
00:26:32.920
self-control is like a city without walls, because you're chaotic. You're a danger to those around
00:26:38.120
you and to yourself. Jeremiah 29, 7, as we've talked about before, urges the Israelite exiles
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00:26:45.220
in Babylon to seek the welfare of the nation in which God has providentially placed them. And we
00:26:50.900
Christians are exiles on this earth, and we are to seek the welfare of the plot of earth in which God
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has providentially placed us. And one of the ways that we can do that is to protect our borders,
00:27:02.720
because remember, nations and governments and laws were God's idea. They were all God's idea,
00:27:10.100
not our idea, because God is a God of order. And he created these modes of order, these spheres of order
00:27:17.460
and law and law enforcement for our good, because we actually don't thrive in chaos. You know that if you
00:27:23.280
have kids, your kids don't thrive in chaos. They thrive when they have parameters, when they have
00:27:27.300
boundaries, when they have a home with walls, and they say, you can only go this far. Yeah, they might
00:27:33.760
be a wild child and want to run, you know, 20 miles down the road, but you know that your fence,
00:27:41.540
that your boundaries of your property are for their protection, and so it is with us. Remember that God
00:27:48.220
placed us not in a jungle, but in a garden. What is the difference between a jungle and a garden?
00:27:53.360
Order. There are walls and parameters and rows in a garden, and we were called, Adam and Eve were
00:27:59.840
called to work it, or Adam was, to work it and to keep it. And I think that is still true today,
00:28:05.760
that we are to make orderly the world around us. And one way to do that is to protect our border.
00:28:11.500
You cannot protect your border if you're not deporting illegal immigrants, because you are
1.00
00:28:15.020
incentivizing lawlessness. And John Piper is a very smart person, and he knows his word very well,
00:28:22.320
and I think he loves the Lord his God with all of his heart, mind, soul, and strength.
00:28:26.320
So I don't assume to know more than him or to be wiser than him. There is a disconnect. I think
00:28:32.280
if this is the message he's trying to convey in this post, when it comes to connecting the word of
00:28:39.340
God to the political implications, my humble opinion. Because as we have just talked about,
00:28:45.540
like, immigration and the people we allow in our country, it really affects our neighbor,
00:28:51.520
especially the babies and the women and the vulnerable people in our country.
00:28:55.800
In light of this, all of this conversation, CNN is warning us about Christian nationalism. And I
00:29:05.020
want to respond to some of the things that they're saying, because we hear all the time,
00:29:08.940
the danger is Christian nationalism. But the definition of Christian nationalism is so fluid.
00:29:15.680
We've been talking about it on this show for years. And Vody Bauckham, the late Vody Bauckham,
00:29:21.540
whom I respected so much, he came on the show and talked about it. And we just kind of, like,
00:29:27.560
broke it down. What really, not according to the liberal media, that is Christian nationalism,
00:29:33.140
like, I'm not even sure how I would personally define it. But if you break down the words,
00:29:39.120
nationalism just means that you want to put the interests of your country first. It's not
00:29:44.440
automatically synonymous with Nazism or fascism. But I do believe that we actually have the
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Christian responsibility to put the needs and the well-being of our citizens first. Again,
00:29:54.960
God created nations. Nations are like families. You don't hate your family just because, or you
00:30:00.040
don't hate your neighbors just because you lock your doors and you live inside a house. You just
00:30:03.900
love your family. And God has created these circles of affection and circles of priority for us,
00:30:09.680
for our good, especially for the good of children again. But I think that's true of Zimbabwe as well,
00:30:15.400
of China. Everyone should put their country first. So that's how I would define nationalism,
00:30:20.900
like, in comparison to globalism, which is what, we're going to have a global government and we're
00:30:26.100
trying to prioritize the needs of everyone equally. Absolutely impossible chaos. I'm anti-chaos. I'm an
00:30:32.560
anti-chaos person that can basically describe my politics. And then Christian, of course, we know what
00:30:39.160
Christian is, a belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so you believe in the gospel of Jesus
0.86
00:30:45.760
Christ. You believe in putting your country first. You believe as Christians that your Christian
00:30:49.900
worldview should impact all you think about policy and politics. And so you could describe it that way,
00:30:56.080
but some would describe it as theocracy, as trying to force people through law to believe what you do,
00:31:02.520
to practice what you do. People somehow inexplicably would call me a Christian nationalist
00:31:07.800
for literally no reason at all. But that is because people haven't actually tried to define it. So
00:31:14.140
that's what CNN, I think, is trying to do. But of course, they're warning against it. So they've got
00:31:18.160
a documentary that is called The Rise of Christian Nationalism, and it's apparently going to air in
00:31:23.840
just a couple of weeks. The CNN anchor behind the project, her name is Pamela Brown. She interviewed
0.58
00:31:29.600
Douglas Wilson. Doug Wilson is an Idaho pastor in Moscow, Idaho. He identifies as a Christian
00:31:36.060
nationalist. And she said, quote, the response to that report was overwhelming and highlighted the
00:31:41.940
need to better understand this movement working to redefine America as a Christian nation. So you
00:31:46.920
can already kind of see the bias in their language there, as if America doesn't have a Christian
00:31:51.180
foundation, which of course it does. But she goes on to say in the home, in a marriage, in schools,
00:31:56.280
and in government. This journalist, Brown, defines Christian nationalism as an ideology rooted in the
00:32:01.900
belief that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and that its laws and institutions
00:32:06.540
should reflect Christian values. Well, again, like I would be hard pressed to understand how a
00:32:14.840
Christian could argue against that. I mean, there's no such thing as neutrality. So it's either going to
00:32:21.600
be Christianity, Islam, secular progressivism. Now, I do think that we should have religious liberty.
00:32:27.560
I don't think we should force people to worship a certain way, to pray a certain way, or to be
00:32:31.960
Christian. But if a worldview always has to inform law, because it does, every law speaks to a moral
0.54
00:32:39.200
truth. People say you can't legislate morality. Of course you do. Every piece of legislation is a form
00:32:43.980
of morality. And our worldview is going to be reflected. Like, Jesus is king can't be compartmentalized,
00:32:51.420
just like the Muslim doesn't believe that their belief should be compartmentalized. Certainly,
00:32:55.540
the secular progressive doesn't believe that their belief about gender or abortion should be
00:32:59.240
compartmentalized. They're bringing the fullness of their belief system into the voting booth,
00:33:05.000
into their PTA meetings, into the city council, into their classrooms, into every public sphere that
00:33:12.000
they occupy. And Christian conservatives and Christian conservatives alone are told,
00:33:16.380
you can't do that. Everyone else can, but you can't do that. When you do that, that's a form of fascism.
00:33:22.100
Well, this journalist pointed to the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service as a time of, quote,
00:33:27.720
unprecedented alignment between Christian nationalists and the Trump administration.
00:33:36.360
Charlie Kirk, a conservative activist and prominent Christian nationalist,
00:33:41.040
was assassinated. It became a rallying call for those who believed in his message.
00:33:45.940
The memorial service was one of the most potent examples of the shift in our culture that we're
00:33:54.800
experiencing right now, where a large segment of American Christians are being activated by these
00:34:01.540
ideas, radicalized by these ideas that say that they are the persecuted ones and that they need to
00:34:09.780
Okay. So, Glenn Beck on there. I was also there at that memorial. It was an incredible day. I don't think
00:34:16.840
Charlie called himself a Christian nationalist. Maybe I could be wrong by that. But people who threw out
00:34:22.340
this moniker, it really is a scare tactic. It's to say, Allie Stuckey or Charlie Kirk, they're not just
00:34:29.520
Christians. They're a radical form of Christian, actually, that you should not be supportive of. And if you
1.00
00:34:34.720
listen to them, you're extreme too. This whole idea to say that true Christianity is only true,
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00:34:41.120
genuine, Jesus-like Christianity if it's private and you vote progressive is so dumb. It's so dumb.
1.00
00:34:47.380
If you intertwine your faith with your politics, which, again, every single person of every faith
0.99
00:34:52.060
or non-faith does, then you are seen as some kind of extremist. And yes, Charlie did believe in the
00:34:59.320
gospel. And he talked about that wherever he went. But Charlie was actually like a very big tent guy,
00:35:06.060
a lot more than I am, by the way. And so if they are calling Charlie, who is a moderate in a lot of
00:35:11.220
ways, if they are calling him a Christian nationalist, then you're all Christian nationalists too.
00:35:18.500
So just get over your fear of being called that. Brown sounded skeptical as she described a church
00:35:24.880
community where women taught to submit to their husbands claimed they were living fulfilling lives
00:35:30.260
at night. Well, Pastor Wilson leads a growing network of conservative Christian churches and
00:35:34.740
preaches a strict biblical interpretation of various issues. His followers are taught to follow
00:35:39.820
specific gender roles where wives submit to their husbands and make being a mother and homemaker their
1.00
00:35:45.120
primary role, while the husband acts as the head of the household and makes the executive decisions for
00:35:49.940
the family. For my upcoming documentary, I embedded with a tight-knit conservative church
00:35:54.640
community in Southeast Texas that belongs to Wilson's network of churches. The women there
00:35:59.180
told me they're flourishing in their role as submissive wives.
1.00
00:36:04.500
She's shocked. Shocked, I tell you. I love how she said embedded, like she went as a spy. Like,
00:36:10.960
did she pretend to be a trad wife too, just so they would talk to her? Yeah. Wives who submit to
1.00
00:36:18.560
our husbands, I would say, are much happier than wives who don't. Who's happy in like a power struggle?
00:36:24.640
But by the way, also those of us who believe in Ephesians 5 because we believe in the authority
00:36:31.220
and inerrancy of God's word, we also know those of us who live in these marriages with our husbands
00:36:37.380
that we respect and love so much that submission isn't some scary word. Like, it's not like your
00:36:45.080
husband ruling over you with an iron fist. It's certainly not having opinions or not having a voice
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00:36:51.320
or not having a personality. Like, it is your husband loving you and cherishing you and taking
00:36:57.260
up this mantle of making the very difficult leadership decisions for your family that I am
00:37:03.660
so glad every day I don't have to make. And so it's actually like a wonderful relief for women to have
00:37:12.240
this leader and to have this ultimate decision maker, especially when you're in a healthy marriage
00:37:16.280
where your husband respects your wisdom and respects you. And you talk through things together
00:37:22.020
and you really do have just like this wonderful love and friendship. And at the end of the day,
00:37:26.420
like he is the one who bears the responsibility for the spiritual formation of our family, who makes
00:37:31.200
the decisions for our family. It's a good thing. Of course, these women are thriving.
1.00
00:37:34.680
They feel happy. Like, they feel relieved by that. Can you, of course, have like a really mean husband
00:37:43.400
who is abusive in a variety of ways? Of course. But that happens. It's not Ephesians 5 that is causing
00:37:52.660
that. It is sin nature that is causing that. And as we just saw, like I'm much more interested to hear
00:37:58.960
about the views of women that these Middle Eastern migrants that we have been importing into our
0.79
00:38:04.860
country and into the West, like how does that affect marriage? Like how about a little expose
00:38:10.460
on some of the female genital mutilation that's happening in places like Minneapolis because of
00:38:15.780
the high concentration of Somalians there? Like if we want to talk about how women are treated,
00:38:20.360
maybe not like loving Christian marriages where they're making sourdough to try to find some kind
1.00
00:38:26.280
of hidden handmaid's tale narrative going on here. All right. I've got more to say on this,
00:38:31.920
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week later, my results were uploaded super easy to see and really easy to understand. So you don't
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have to be some kind of like medical scholar. You certainly don't have to be super tech savvy
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00:39:17.320
really understand, was very compassionate in her tone. And then she also gave me recommendations
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based on my specific results. Like here's what you can do to help your thyroid. Your specific
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That's gogevity.com slash Allie. Now on the other end of this, Brown asked a panel of deconstructing
00:40:07.260
former trad wives. So already in this, as she is interviewing these former trad wives, she is kind
00:40:13.640
of conflating the women that she had talked to in the Southeast Texas church with these so-called
00:40:18.640
trad wives. And I will tell you what I think about that mistaken conflation in just a second. But
1.00
00:40:23.760
here is what this group of deconstructing women had to say about the quote unquote patriarchy,
1.00
00:40:29.420
South 11. Do you have concerns how that lifestyle is being glamorized on social media?
00:40:35.240
Yeah. Anyone who's an influencer trad wife is not a trad wife. It's a full-time job to put all of that
1.00
00:40:43.440
content online and make it look really good. Also, you're getting to use your voice. You're getting
00:40:47.460
your own independent money. So the people who are selling trad with free are not bearing the costs of
00:40:55.140
trad with free. All right. Y'all couldn't see it if you're just listening to this, but it says like
00:41:00.680
former member of Christian nationalist affiliated church. Now, I don't think that there is like an
00:41:06.960
official network of Christian nationalist churches. So who knows what that means? It could have been
00:41:11.100
your run-of-the-mill Southern Baptist church for all we know. I have no idea if these women were
1.00
00:41:17.720
influencers and if they were really trad wives, if they're still trad wives. This is another thing,
00:41:23.820
just like Christian nationalists, that I think is misdefined by many. When I talk about trad wife,
00:41:32.560
I've been talking about the trad wife trend for probably going on three years now, trying to
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00:41:37.620
remind people that, hey, being a so-called trad wife, so the things that you're seeing on TikTok and
00:41:43.400
Instagram about making sourdough and raising chickens and homeschooling your kids, that is not
00:41:51.140
synonymous with being a biblical wife. There's nothing wrong with those things. In fact, I think
00:41:55.360
there can be great benefits to doing all of those things, but that's not what it means to be a
00:42:00.980
Christian. And actually, if it's just a fetish for some people on TikTok, which by the way, it is,
00:42:06.880
there are literal trad wives who dress up in 1950s stuff. It's like got a very sexual undertone to it.
1.00
00:42:14.880
And then you have those that are really just influencers, and they're really just kind of
00:42:18.840
using the aesthetic of it to try to get sponsor deals and to get brand deals. And the person who
00:42:25.600
was just talking right there is right. That is not traditional. Like that really is just kind of a
00:42:30.960
grift. And people who do that, who call themselves stay-at-home moms and call themselves homeschooling
00:42:35.980
moms, but who are curating every single mundane moment and packaging it for social media are probably
1.00
00:42:43.300
spending much less time with their kids than say the woman who is like a part-time secretary or a
1.00
00:42:49.880
virtual assistant, or maybe has an Etsy shop where she's selling stuff, like real buying and selling
0.99
00:42:56.700
type job. So that of course is true. I think it's really important to know that biblical womanhood can
00:43:02.600
be done in the middle of Manhattan, that it can be done in the suburbs, that it can be done anywhere in
00:43:08.600
the world at any time. And Christian virtue, submitting to your husband, loving your children,
00:43:14.920
prioritizing your home, doesn't have to have any particular aesthetic. And I had a lot of people
00:43:21.240
who are in this camp, by the way, the so-called Theobros that think that they're like so tough and
00:43:27.200
masculine and all of this stuff tell me that I'm being a feminist for saying that. No, I just want to
00:43:32.420
remind Christians that the Bible sets the standard, not Instagram. I know. So crazy to say that. So
00:43:39.660
yeah, I don't love the so-called trad wife movement either, but conflating that as CNN is with true
1.00
00:43:46.000
Christian marriage, which has existed for 2000 years. One man, one woman, the woman primarily discipling,
00:43:55.280
teaching the children and the man protecting the women and children or the wife and children
00:44:01.100
and the wife submitting to the husband. Yeah, that has nothing to do with the trad wife trend. That's
0.94
00:44:05.780
just what Christian, that's just what Christian marriage is. So much of this whole Christian
00:44:11.960
nationalist thing is highlighting basic tenets of Christianity as if they are new or extreme
00:44:18.300
and conflating them with new and extreme things to try to make it seem like that.
00:44:22.920
Um, so here's my response to some of this, uh, to some of this stuff, this whole Christian
1.00
00:44:31.920
nationalist trend, which we'll see more hopefully of, uh, the documentary soon, but let me pause
00:44:37.280
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like her all the way to the Supreme court. A decision could come down any day as we just
00:45:25.620
talked about with Shannon Bream, definitely in the next few months. And we just should be so
00:45:30.600
thankful that Alliance Defending Freedom is always taking these cases, taking them all the way up to
00:45:34.800
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Brown also spoke with teachers and administrators at a classical Christian school. She interviewed
00:45:59.940
David Goodwin. He is the president of the Association of Classical Christian Schools.
00:46:04.520
And I guess she believes that classical Christian education is a part of Christian nationalism. Now,
00:46:10.040
if you know anything about classical Christian education, it starts with grammar. That's like
00:46:17.800
the lower school is grammar. And then middle school is logic. And then the upper school is rhetoric. I think
00:46:25.720
I have that correct. And that kind of shows you the what the foundation is of what they're learning at
00:46:32.100
each stage. Not that they're only actually learning grammar. They're learning all different kinds of
00:46:38.080
things. But it is on the basis of this classical model of education that, yes, is Christian in
00:46:45.120
nature. Not all classical schools are Christian. But these classical Christian schools are based on
00:46:50.640
the word of God. But everything goes back to what is actually true. And the hope is by the time they
00:46:56.440
graduate that they can argue their way there, that they can defend what they believe. I wish I had had a
00:47:04.540
classical Christian education because you really just, you learn how to debate so well and to defend
00:47:10.420
your belief system. And even math is intertwined with the knowledge of the authority of the God of
00:47:16.440
the universe who made numbers and patterns. So anyway, I guess that's scary to CNN. And here's that part of
00:47:25.260
What do you hope the graduates will go out and do in America?
00:47:32.840
You would like to see them in positions of power, naturally.
00:47:39.660
And classical Christian schools already have some powerful advocates,
00:47:46.780
Okay. Like, what are we trying to say? You would like to see them in positions of power.
00:47:54.200
Are you telling me that you don't want to see someone who shares your worldview in a position of
00:48:00.100
influence in a position of lawmaking? Everyone thinks that they're right. Everyone does. You
00:48:05.000
wouldn't think the things you do if you didn't think that what you believe is true. And you believe
00:48:10.000
that your beliefs are not only true, but they're good. And you believe that other people should
00:48:14.940
believe the things that you do. And so, of course, you want the people who are making laws and who are
00:48:20.800
influencing the future of our country to share your worldview. By the way, all Christians should believe this
00:48:26.220
because God's ways are better. And so, it's not some nefarious thing out there. The Islamification
00:48:32.940
of America is much scarier, is much more foreign to us, and has much more tragic implications than
0.51
00:48:40.880
Christians just being Christians. Christians have always cared about the education of our children.
00:48:45.480
Like, someone's going to disciple your kids. Is it going to be the secular progressive who believes
00:48:51.460
that you can be born in the wrong body? Or is it going to be the person who shares your worldview,
00:48:57.880
who believes that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life? It's really not that crazy. It's really
00:49:02.180
not that crazy. Now, the question, was America founded as a Christian country? Well, you'll hear a lot of
00:49:11.800
people say that America wasn't, that it was founded from a secular perspective, but that's not true.
00:49:17.680
It was written from a theistic worldview. It was not written from a secular one. We can read,
00:49:24.080
in the Declaration of Independence, that the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature
00:49:27.680
and of nature's God entitled them. Okay? So, we can see that, what the founders believed about the
00:49:33.700
human being and where we get rights. And, of course, we all know this. We hold these truths to be
00:49:38.820
self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain
00:49:43.860
unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
00:49:51.320
Now, of course, we also know that there is a First Amendment, that we are to have religious liberty.
00:49:58.560
We know that in the letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist, there is this principle of the
00:50:03.540
separation of church and state, but that principle is to protect the church, not just the state. And
00:50:09.440
there is no separation of God and law, because that is, again, impossible. If we look at the state
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constitutions—actually, I'm not even going to argue this. I'm just going to show you Charlie at his best
00:50:20.780
when he was talking about just this Christian thread that we see woven through not only our own
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founding documents as a country, but also the early state constitutions, nine of the 13 colonies were
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strictly Christian governed. Here's top 13. You need to read the state constitutions before
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anything else. Nine out of 13 of the original states required you to be a Bible-believing Christian
00:50:43.960
to serve in government. 13 out of 13 required a declaration of faith. Nine out of 13 required
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you to be a Protestant, except Maryland, which was Catholic, which still required a declaration of
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faith. And almost every single one of the original state constitutions, Pennsylvania included,
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they had, I profess Lord and Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior in the original state constitutions.
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So remember, we're a collection of states before that. Secondly, 55 out of 56 of the original signers
00:51:09.960
of the declaration were Bible-believing church-attending Christians. You asked about common
00:51:13.220
law. So common law is inherited from Blackstone, who was Christian. Common law is an outgrowth of the
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scriptures. John Adams seamlessly said the constitution was only written for a moral and religious
00:51:22.880
people. It was wholly inadequate for the people of any other. The body politic of America was
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so Christian and was so Protestant that our form and structure of government was built for the
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people that believed in Christ our Lord. Man, we lost a really good one. But for anyone who thinks
00:51:40.520
that this whole movement is somehow strange or extreme, in many ways, it's just how Christians
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have always been. And I think even Christians who are like, oh, no, no, I definitely don't want
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Christianity represented in the public square. That is the historic anomaly. That is the strange thing.
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Like, that is the one that you're going to have to, like, logically explain to me. We've got to, like,
00:52:02.760
think a little bit harder about the difference between just infusing what is good, right, and true
00:52:07.500
into our politics and some, like, scary theocracy. And look, some people who are in this realm who call
00:52:15.340
themselves Christian nationalists, I do not align with, because I also think that they're silly
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grifters who, like, really pretend like they're on the front lines of some battle. And I just don't
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theologically and in probably some ways politically align with them. So I'm not even calling myself as,
00:52:32.800
like, a member of any particular organized movement here. I just think that this fear-mongering
00:52:38.960
surrounding Christians wanting to infuse our faith into politics is really, really silly.
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And it's a manipulation tactic against you, Christian, to say that you and you alone,
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conservative Christian, should not be able to bring your faith into the public square,
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but everyone else can. When that happens, when the Christian foundation is swept out from under us,
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bad things go on. As we talked about at the beginning of the show, politics matter because
00:53:07.340
policy matters because people matter. Politics affects policy. Policy affects people. People matter to
00:53:13.340
God and therefore they have to matter to us. All right. We've just got a little bit more to talk
00:53:17.380
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00:54:02.680
Okay. Before we end this episode, I guess it would be fitting to say, Christian, go vote.
00:54:12.840
Christians, you should bring the fullness of your worldview into the voting booth. You should
00:54:16.920
vote your conscience. And remember, voting is a decision. It is not. You're not voting for someone
00:54:26.740
based on vibes. You're not voting for a Valentine. As I've heard others say before, you are not voting
00:54:33.740
for a perfect person. You are voting, if you're a Republican voting in the primary this week,
00:54:39.520
tomorrow, then you are voting for the person that you think can best defeat the Democrat in November.
00:54:46.160
Okay? And that's important. I mean, baby's lives depend on that. Justice depends on that.
00:54:50.400
Um, there is public safety that can depend on that. Again, policymakers matter because policy
00:54:58.440
matters. And so who you put in power and how you involve yourself in politics really does matter.
00:55:03.780
And you might not think these local elections matter. These local elections have more of an
00:55:08.060
effect on your life than the federal elections do. And so just ensure that you're going out to vote
00:55:15.380
tomorrow. It's primary day. You should have already voted. I'll just chastise you for a second.
00:55:20.180
If you haven't voted yet, you should have already voted. You never wait until voting day because
00:55:23.860
you never know what's going to happen. You want to early vote as early as you possibly can.
00:55:28.040
I'm looking at everyone in this room, everyone in this room, make sure JC's voted, make sure that
00:55:34.680
you vote. You will be in trouble if you don't vote. Um, and this is a wonderful privilege and right
00:55:41.220
that we get to exercise that not everyone around the world gets to. So while we still can make your
00:55:47.000
voice known, vote for the best candidate that's on the table, the one that is most likely to beat the
00:55:52.540
Democrat in November. That's my opinion anyway. All right. Um, we've got a lot to talk about on