Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1317 ｜ This Pastor's Phone Call Shook His Progressive Governor ｜ Jeff Schwarzentraub

00:00:00.000 In the past year, Colorado has passed some of the most radically pro-trans legislation in the country, including a law that threatens parents that they will lose custody of their child if they don't go along with their son or daughter's so-called gender transition.

00:00:15.860 Colorado has also become a safe haven for abortion through all nine months of pregnancy.

00:00:22.100 And against this very anti-biblical, dark and depraved backdrop is Brave Church.

00:00:28.620 This is a church in Denver, Colorado, that is led by Pastor Jeff.

00:00:32.880 He is here today to talk about courage and the responsibility of both pastors and Christians

00:00:38.760 in shining light in the darkness, in speaking the truth in love, and how we can actually

00:00:44.580 make a difference by seemingly small acts of obedience to God.

00:00:48.520 This is an incredibly edifying and educational conversation that you guys are going to love.

00:00:54.420 So without further ado, here is Pastor Jeff.

00:00:58.620 Pastor Jeff, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:01:09.280 Could you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do?

00:01:12.540 Yeah, my name is Jeff Swarzentraub.

00:01:13.960 I'm the senior pastor of Brave Church in the Denver, Colorado area.

00:01:17.560 Yes, and you all are indeed brave against this backdrop of Denver,

00:01:23.640 which as we were talking about before the camera started rolling,

00:01:25.940 has changed a lot in the past several years.

00:01:28.140 Can you talk about some of the changes you've seen in the city over the past decade or so?

00:01:32.980 Yeah.

00:01:33.120 So originally I'm from central Illinois, lived in Dallas for four years, probably similar

00:01:37.640 vibe.

00:01:38.720 There's a cultural Christianity vibe to it.

00:01:41.600 When we moved out to Denver, we realized very quickly that is not the vibe in Denver, which

00:01:45.960 is one of the reasons we wanted to go and plant there.

00:01:48.380 But even since we've been there over the last 15 years, I mean, with the legalization of

00:01:52.700 marijuana. I mean, people move to Denver, I say, for the three Ms, for marijuana, for the mountains,

00:01:59.580 and for Mile High, if they like the Broncos. And so that's really why they come. People do not

00:02:04.020 migrate to Denver for community. They migrate for hedonism. And so what you see in our culture is

00:02:10.740 a group of people. My wife and I were talking about it this morning. We used to say Denver is

00:02:15.020 the happiest group of lost people on the entire planet. People move there to be outdoors, to be

00:02:20.380 active, to enjoy what they do, and usually do it by themselves. It's a very hedonistic

00:02:26.360 lifestyle and culture. Would you say over the past 15 years that you've been there,

00:02:30.940 the hedonism has increased? Oh, absolutely. I mean, when people start going down a road

00:02:38.020 where I'm going to live for me and it's all about me, there's no U-turn on that road apart from

00:02:43.600 Christ. And so it just keeps spiraling that way. It's crazy how Colorado has turned so deeply

00:02:49.600 secular and progressive. It didn't used to be that way. It was a conservative stronghold for a long

00:02:55.040 time. And then I guess migration from the blue states, maybe even immigration, just changed the

00:02:59.980 demographics, changed the politics. And now it kind of helps along with California, Oregon,

00:03:05.640 and Washington lead the charge for progressive radicalism. We're talking the most radical

00:03:12.300 transgender ideology in the country has been passed legislatively in the state of Colorado.

00:03:18.780 So can you talk about that?

00:03:20.060 Because some people may not know how far gone, I don't want to use that terminology, but

00:03:24.240 seemingly, politically, Colorado is.

00:03:27.320 Yeah.

00:03:27.580 And I would say this, 2020 changed me huge.

00:03:30.480 I think it did for every pastor, right?

00:03:31.960 Because you're doing a case study live.

00:03:35.400 Like, what are we going to do?

00:03:36.840 Here's what the government's saying.

00:03:38.140 We're going to slow the spread for 14 days.

00:03:40.620 You got to wear a mask.

00:03:41.480 You got to get a vaccine, all these different things.

00:03:43.860 And we were really questioning that from the beginning.

00:03:46.000 and very quickly we opened our doors.

00:03:48.820 And because I was one that just said,

00:03:50.940 I don't wanna get to heaven and meet Daniel

00:03:53.200 who talked about being thrown in a lion's den

00:03:55.080 or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

00:03:56.320 being thrown in a fire,

00:03:57.520 all the martyrs that have been martyred for their faith

00:03:59.540 and then say, hey, what did you deal with?

00:04:01.580 I'm like, well, we had to close down

00:04:02.740 because there was COVID and we were playing it safe.

00:04:05.580 I couldn't do that.

00:04:07.080 And so we opened our doors

00:04:08.200 and then we received a lot of threats

00:04:09.820 from the health department, from Christians, 0.99

00:04:12.300 from saying, you don't love us, you don't care,

00:04:14.540 all those different things.

00:04:16.000 And what we've seen is just this whole progressive ideology move.

00:04:20.640 So there was a House Bill 1312 that got passed.

00:04:24.780 It got modified a little bit because people put up a big fight.

00:04:27.700 But basically in Colorado, what they're trying to do is be able to take your kids, be able

00:04:32.180 to castrate them or do whatever they want without your permission.

00:04:35.380 And if you don't agree, they don't even have to tell you.

00:04:37.880 And so I find myself in a unique position because I think the way I was trained, the

00:04:42.560 way I was raised is like, keep the gospel, the gospel, make it about the cross, the burial,

00:04:46.760 the resurrection of Jesus. Don't get involved in politics. Because I grew up in Peoria, Illinois,

00:04:52.140 which was a melting pot and a test market for everything. I grew up with Democrats, Republicans,

00:04:56.760 but that was in an era of Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan. So we would, our parents would vote

00:05:02.220 different and we'd all play football together and eat Thanksgiving dinner and nobody cared.

00:05:05.440 We didn't talk about it, but it's moved from a right and left issue to a right and wrong issue.

00:05:11.180 And so everything that I feel like I get involved with that's quote unquote political, they're

00:05:15.020 just biblical issues.

00:05:16.500 So the transgender issue, that's a biblical issue.

00:05:18.300 That's not a political issue.

00:05:19.640 God created two genders, male and female.

00:05:21.360 You can't even get out of Genesis chapter one and not believe that.

00:05:24.520 So when we've teached the Bible, we teach the Bible.

00:05:27.480 And so if you really want to tick off leftists, just teach Genesis one because leftists are

00:05:33.640 saying, well, we don't know how we got here.

00:05:35.020 Well, God says you got here because I'm God and I've always existed.

00:05:38.680 So there's one God.

00:05:40.160 He says there's two genders, male and female.

00:05:42.120 And he says there's one race.

00:05:43.280 And I created all this in six days.

00:05:45.180 And so when you talk about all the racist,

00:05:47.480 people say everybody's racist these days.

00:05:49.700 We talk about racism being an issue.

00:05:51.140 We talk about transgender being an issue.

00:05:52.600 We talk about all these things.

00:05:53.600 God is addressing those in the very first chapter

00:05:55.940 of his word very authoritatively

00:05:58.080 for us to be able to say, hey, this is what it is.

00:06:00.620 So I found myself on the state Capitol

00:06:02.520 speaking truth, doing things I never thought I would do.

00:06:05.780 I have no desire to make a political run.

00:06:08.480 I have no desire to get involved.

00:06:09.580 But to stay silent on biblical issues is to be complicit with evil, and I just won't do it.

00:06:16.720 Yes.

00:06:17.340 And in case some people think that you're exaggerating when you're saying, oh, Colorado

00:06:21.800 wants to take kids away from their parents.

00:06:23.960 No, this is true.

00:06:24.860 And you're referring to, I think, the Kelly Loving Act, correct?

00:06:27.780 Yeah.

00:06:28.060 That was passed last year.

00:06:29.540 It's supposed to go into effect in October 2026.

00:06:33.980 And this is, well, I guess there might be two different ones.

00:06:37.220 So there's one that has to do with pronouns, so-called gender expressions, that requires you to affirm and respect someone's pronouns if they identify as the opposite sex.

00:06:50.160 And there is another piece of legislation that basically calls it child abuse.

00:06:54.780 If a parent says, you know, I'm not going to go along with this.

00:06:57.720 Correct.

00:06:58.040 My 12-year-old boy says he's a girl.

00:06:59.840 Well, I'm not going to put him on puberty blockers, chemically castrate him.

00:07:03.120 I'm going to tell him the truth.

00:07:04.080 I'm going to love him.

00:07:04.940 I'm going to help him affirm his masculinity, that is considered child abuse and could possibly 0.98

00:07:11.560 put your custody of your own child at risk in the state of Colorado.

00:07:16.440 That's exactly right. 0.99

00:07:17.500 And it's ridiculous. 0.93

00:07:18.680 And I find that too many churches are afraid to stand up and say that's wrong. 0.94

00:07:22.860 And that's not even a political issue.

00:07:24.240 That's just a biblical issue.

00:07:25.640 That's just what it means to be a parent.

00:07:27.600 That's what it means to love your child.

00:07:29.120 That's how God designed them and you're responsible for them.

00:07:32.180 So, yeah, I see that gender ideology. 1.00

00:07:35.720 I see the radical leftist movement in Colorado.

00:07:39.480 And so people, I mean, having lived in Dallas before for four years, there's a cultural

00:07:43.900 Christianity vibe.

00:07:45.140 I mean, if you go work out at a health club, you can hear people talking where they go

00:07:48.580 to church and what they thought about the service.

00:07:50.820 I've never heard that in Denver one time.

00:07:52.640 People don't talk like that.

00:07:54.260 And so that's why we like being where we are, just to be a voice from the Lord saying,

00:07:59.920 this is the way, walk in it.

00:08:01.280 Yeah.

00:08:02.180 And you joined other pastors last year in the Denver area to try to push back against this legislation.

00:08:09.000 I remember you wrote an open letter, right, to the legislature saying, hey, slow your roll.

00:08:14.680 Think about this.

00:08:15.540 I urge you not to sign on to this, not to pass this pro-transgender, anti-parental rights legislation, right?

00:08:22.720 Absolutely.

00:08:23.600 Because, again, every time I do that, I find myself looking up to the heavens like, God, why me?

00:08:29.240 This is, I'm not.

00:08:30.360 But I have to.

00:08:32.180 I have to for the sake of the next generation.

00:08:34.660 If you care about our kids, if you care about the family, if you care about church and what

00:08:39.120 I learned in 2020 is that God loves his church.

00:08:41.920 He'll do anything to protect his church.

00:08:43.900 And our job in the church is to honor him and to honor his word and to stay true to

00:08:49.660 what he wants.

00:08:50.760 And then his job is to protect what we do.

00:08:52.940 We tend to do it the other way around.

00:08:54.420 We try to protect ourselves.

00:08:55.920 We try to, hey, what can I and can't I say to keep members here?

00:08:59.600 What do I need to do to protect the church?

00:09:01.280 and then we miss out on all the truth

00:09:03.440 that God has for a culture.

00:09:05.160 And so I think it's imperative for pastors of churches,

00:09:08.560 whether you're in conservative areas or liberal areas,

00:09:12.220 to preach the word unapologetically

00:09:14.640 in such a way where people can hear it.

00:09:17.200 And the only thing they can do with the word

00:09:18.560 is they can accept it or reject it.

00:09:20.340 Those are your only two options.

00:09:22.420 And so I just find that there's not,

00:09:24.000 people ask me all the time, 0.92

00:09:25.020 are other pastors just cowards? 0.99

00:09:26.680 I don't know that they're cowards 0.99

00:09:28.040 and that they're afraid to stand up.

00:09:29.920 I just don't know that enough pastors trust the authority of God's word enough to say,

00:09:34.280 this is what I'm called to do, and I'm going to stand on this no matter what,

00:09:38.040 because I'm not an authority on the word. The word's an authority over me.

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00:11:08.400 I know a lot of pastors who are solid guys. They love their families. They seem to love the Lord,

00:11:13.960 and they will preach God's word, but they will not claim God's authority over every sphere of life.

00:11:22.300 So they might stop short of calling on the civil magistrate to stop legislation that is evil and

00:11:30.100 could hurt kids. Maybe they would preach through Genesis 1, but they would say, okay, that's where

00:11:34.780 my responsibility ends. I'm not going into the civic realm and saying, don't pass this law.

00:11:40.020 But you said, no, it's not only my responsibility to preach the gospel and preach God's word, but I also need to use this pulpit and use this platform to call on the governors, the legislators to say, no, no, no, this is wrong and here's why.

00:11:56.440 Right. I mean, even if you read through your Bible, just a cursory reading, I mean, John the Baptist wasn't beheaded because he was going to the synagogue and teaching about marriage being between one man and one woman.

00:12:05.120 And he was standing outside the king's palace telling him he was immoral and wrong.

00:12:09.160 And that's what cost him his life.

00:12:10.620 So I think we've missed the mark on what it is.

00:12:13.400 We think teaching the word is just, hey, our job is just to teach Christians. 0.84

00:12:16.900 No, our job is to herald the word in a culture that's not willing to hear it.

00:12:20.920 And that's where we have to stand up because I believe this wholeheartedly.

00:12:24.120 And I know you knew Charlie.

00:12:24.920 I knew Charlie.

00:12:25.480 We had him to our church.

00:12:26.740 One of the things I loved about Charlie was Charlie would say the most important message

00:12:29.720 in the world is the gospel.

00:12:30.780 But the second is fighting for a culture that will allow the gospel to flourish.

00:12:35.280 Now, to be clear, the gospel will flourish in any environment.

00:12:38.260 The gospel can flourish in totalitarian environments.

00:12:40.800 It can.

00:12:41.820 But nobody wants to live in that regime.

00:12:44.000 And if Christians don't stand up and live out the gospel and call people to live the 0.96

00:12:48.760 gospel, then we will be living in a culture that we never, ever wanted.

00:12:52.100 Because the leftists, I'm not talking about people that lean left democratic.

00:12:56.620 I'm talking about people that have an anti-biblical agenda, which is a big part of that party right now going that way.

00:13:02.360 If you're going that way and nobody's standing in the line saying, no, we're going to hold the line, we're going to do this, then the whole culture is going to go that way.

00:13:09.580 And culture is downstream from politics and politics is downstream from family and family is downstream from the church.

00:13:14.860 And if the church does not herald the word of God clearly to the entire city that it's in, then we have the mess that we're in.

00:13:22.500 And when the cultural mess comes, then people are like, well, that's just culture.

00:13:25.680 That's just, no, that's from bad preaching of the word of God in your culture.

00:13:30.900 Yeah, we've been using an alliteration for several years on this show.

00:13:34.300 Politics matter because policy matters because people matter.

00:13:37.620 Politics affects policy.

00:13:38.860 Policy affects people.

00:13:39.840 People matter to God and they matter to us.

00:13:42.340 And therefore, the Christian does have a responsibility to involve ourselves in politics

00:13:48.280 because our politics affect our unborn neighbor.

00:13:51.540 They affected Lake and Riley.

00:13:53.140 They affect people who are impacted by all different kinds of immigration, economic, abortion, gender policies.

00:14:00.180 And if we love our neighbor, then the most loving thing we can do is agree with God, both privately and publicly.

00:14:06.360 Charlie and I always talked about this concept that some pastors, you mentioned some pastors,

00:14:11.360 they don't fully trust in the authority of Scripture just to be their guiding light and to say,

00:14:16.200 this is what God's Word says, I'm not going to apologize for it, because a lot of people think that they're nicer than God.

00:14:23.140 that maybe they can out-compassion God, or they need to kind of let God off the hook,

00:14:28.420 because some people think God is so mean for saying there's only two genders. And

00:14:32.100 let me nuance this a little bit, because I think my message could actually be more persuasive

00:14:38.320 than the message of the creator of the universe. And at the end of the day,

00:14:44.440 that is, it's no small thing, that's actually self-idolatry. That goes all the way back to

00:14:49.520 the garden of like, I want to be like God. I want to be the one to determine good and evil, right?

00:14:55.880 It's 100% pride. And I find that too. And if we'd have been doing this podcast maybe 10 years ago

00:15:00.960 or something like this, we were living in a different time. I mean, the culture has shifted

00:15:05.040 so quickly in a direction that, you know, and the way I was trained, like I said, here's the gospel,

00:15:10.280 the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That's it. But it's not because the

00:15:14.660 gospel changes who I am. It changes my identity and how I'm supposed to live. And if the gospel

00:15:19.660 is just getting people to heaven, we miss out on everything that God's doing in his word.

00:15:23.640 The gospel changes me. Yes, there's nothing I can do. There's no works I can do. All that stuff is

00:15:28.160 true. So I believe in Jesus, but believing is not just a cognitive mental ascent. Like, okay,

00:15:32.800 I believe Jesus died. It's he's the Lord of my life. And if he's the Lord, then he gets to

00:15:37.400 control what I do. And so when I see things that are wrong in a culture and I don't confront them

00:15:42.540 or I don't live differently,

00:15:44.040 then I'm being complicit with that cultural norm.

00:15:47.060 And so, you know, we already mentioned Daniel,

00:15:48.680 we mentioned Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego.

00:15:50.380 You go through the Bible and every single person,

00:15:52.900 the apostle Paul, I mean,

00:15:54.440 every time they rolled into a culture,

00:15:56.180 they weren't rolling in to see

00:15:57.360 how they could warmly greet everybody and love it.

00:16:00.300 They were rolling in with,

00:16:01.300 there's a whole different way to live.

00:16:03.600 Jesus Christ is Lord.

00:16:05.140 We're called to submit to him, to love each other radically.

00:16:08.280 And what you talked about, we have the message of love wrong.

00:16:11.780 We think love is a feeling.

00:16:13.660 No, love is a decision to preference others and show them the truth.

00:16:17.120 And so what you're doing on your show, I appreciate you.

00:16:20.680 I know my wife appreciates you.

00:16:21.820 You're a voice of clarity in a world of confusion.

00:16:25.420 And so it's an honor to be here talking to you.

00:16:27.360 Oh, well, thank you.

00:16:28.160 Well, I feel the same way.

00:16:29.820 And pastors who are clear from the pulpit make the podcaster's job a lot easier.

00:16:34.920 It's much harder to be a pastor than it is to be a podcaster because you are not only

00:16:39.720 talking from a pulpit, but you're shepherding a flock of people that God has entrusted to you

00:16:44.220 to help steward their souls to heaven, but also to advance God's kingdom on earth. And that's a

00:16:49.660 really big task. And when someone is going to a church and they're not getting clarity from their

00:16:55.720 pastor and they're like, okay, I got that message, but I still have no idea what right and wrong is

00:17:01.780 when it comes to these issues. I'm just going to turn on relatable. I'm happy to help give clarity,

00:17:07.240 but I'm not a pastor. I don't want to be a pastor. I would love to be an auxiliary help

00:17:12.680 to your pastor, but my hope is that every pastor from a pulpit would be so clear that every

00:17:19.460 congregant would then walk away and say, okay, I know exactly what God's Word says about abortion 0.86

00:17:24.720 or about gender. Now I'll listen to Allie just for fun. But we've kind of gotten into this mess

00:17:30.720 where a lot of people feel like they have to turn to podcasters because their pastor just won't

00:17:35.160 tell them the truth. That's exactly right. I mean, you're preaching for me because if I could

00:17:40.260 say anything to pastors out there, it's trust the word. I know when we launched our church in 2010,

00:17:45.100 and we started with 12 people on launch Sunday, we had 208, and then I bragged that we grew it to

00:17:49.940 113 and all that stuff. But there were so many times where I'm just rolling through a text and

00:17:54.920 I would tell Kim, my wife, this is going to be a congregational tremor. People aren't going to

00:18:00.160 like this. And inevitably some of the times it was, but I remember thinking when we first started

00:18:05.680 the church, I'm like, my youth group in Texas was bigger than this church. What am I doing wrong?

00:18:10.020 And I was really encouraged by some of my mentors. It's not about the size of your church,

00:18:13.760 just keep preaching who you want to disciple and then they will come. And now we're in a place

00:18:19.100 after 15 years of doing this, that when people walk into Brave, they know they're going to get

00:18:23.220 the word. I mean, I don't have to apologize for anything. I can preach any text in the Bible and

00:18:27.480 people are hungry for it, and they want it, and they're thankful for it, and it's so good.

00:18:31.220 And that's why I tell our church all the time, there's no other church I would rather pastor

00:18:34.300 than y'all, because we're building something together, and God's doing something. And to

00:18:38.420 your point, we are standing against a culture that is very, very different than us right in 0.95

00:18:43.920 the center of Denver. And we love that, and we love it. We want to reach our city with love and

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00:19:42.840 You know, you mentioned COVID and I know we've kind of gotten off of that and I kind of want

00:19:47.540 to go back because you said that that really changed how you thought about politics and in

00:19:52.440 some ways leadership and the gospel and how you preach things. What I find interesting is that

00:19:57.480 for a lot of people, they look back at COVID and they're like, well, that made me really scared.

00:20:03.100 That was the era that my fear deepened, where my mistrust deepened. And it sounds like for you and

00:20:08.800 your church, you're saying, well, actually God used that very fearful, chaotic time to make us

00:20:14.720 braver and to make us bolder and to make us more clear. Can you talk more about that? The lessons

00:20:19.580 that you learned during COVID? Yeah. I mean, there's myriads of lessons. I think it was a

00:20:23.500 case study and process like we talked about, but as we prayed about it, I was like, we have to open

00:20:28.380 our doors. Like, how can you make disciples if you're not in person? Like, how can you do what

00:20:33.260 we're called to do if we're not going to meet together? And the Bible says you should meet

00:20:36.200 together and all the more as you see the day approaching. And why should I have to listen to

00:20:40.100 somebody saying that strip clubs and marijuana dispensaries are essential, but my church isn't.

00:20:44.960 And so I remember I was on a phone call with our governor about the third time they had one of

00:20:48.760 these clergy calls. And my friend who had worked in the governor's office told me how to hit star

00:20:52.980 six or something, I can't remember, and get in the queue. And I was the third person up. And they

00:20:57.280 said, okay, Pastor Jeff from Brave Church. And I remember asking, this was very early on. I'm like,

00:21:00.920 hey, governor, appreciate what you do. Appreciate the fact no matter what you choose, people are

00:21:05.180 going to be upset with you. We're praying for you because we're called to do that in the word.

00:21:08.480 I just have a question.

00:21:09.620 I'm kind of curious right now

00:21:10.780 why you've trimmed our churches down to 50 people.

00:21:12.880 You make us have six feet of space.

00:21:14.760 We have to wear masks.

00:21:16.120 You're thinking about trimming it to 10

00:21:17.860 and yet I can go to Home Depot or Lowe's

00:21:19.940 or a King Soopers or wherever I go.

00:21:22.160 There's thousands of people walking around unmasked.

00:21:24.940 And so I just wanna know what to tell our congregation.

00:21:27.180 So I'll tell them whatever you say

00:21:28.580 and I'm gonna hang up and listen to you.

00:21:30.360 And I hung up and he just started ranting for five minutes.

00:21:33.700 And I knew he was scared

00:21:34.700 and I knew he didn't have an answer.

00:21:36.120 And it was right then I'm listening.

00:21:37.120 I'm like, we're opening our doors.

00:21:39.440 And so when we did, I think the first Sunday back, we had like 72 people or something like

00:21:44.000 that.

00:21:44.220 And I was in the front during worship crying with my wife, like, I will always keep our

00:21:47.540 doors open.

00:21:48.020 I'll never shut them again.

00:21:49.500 And then we grew during that time.

00:21:51.740 So I think pre-COVID, we were about 1,800 people.

00:21:54.020 Post-COVID, we were close to 5,000 people.

00:21:56.100 We had to get a different building and everything.

00:21:58.180 And then our whole congregation changed because the people that came, like, I remember a guy

00:22:02.480 that walked into our church.

00:22:04.060 He was with his daughters.

00:22:04.960 He didn't know I was the pastor and I could overhear him talking to his daughters.

00:22:08.100 I won't say exactly what he said, but he said something to the effect of he's walking around

00:22:12.720 because we would put up signs, but we didn't enforce anything.

00:22:15.420 And so it was the first place he'd been with a large group of people that were Christian

00:22:18.540 where nobody's wearing a mask and everybody's happy.

00:22:20.920 And I remember he said to his daughter, he's like, I don't care if this pastor stinks,

00:22:24.180 this is our church.

00:22:25.720 And so what I learned during 2020, one of the other things was that the church dictates

00:22:31.400 what the church should be doing.

00:22:32.620 We don't take our cues from the government who tells us we need to close.

00:22:35.880 If we need to close, we'll decide that we need to close.

00:22:37.700 You can't tell us we can close.

00:22:39.040 That's not your role.

00:22:40.020 You're overstepping your bounds.

00:22:41.560 You're overstepping your reach.

00:22:42.820 That's our role.

00:22:44.180 And what I realized is when I'm praying in 2020 with my wife in the kitchen before I

00:22:48.220 go to church in Denver, Colorado, and I'm praying with her because my kids were younger

00:22:52.680 then saying, hey, if I go to prison day, if I get arrested, just tell the kids, daddy's

00:22:57.780 going to go share the gospel in a different place.

00:22:59.320 He'll be home later this afternoon.

00:23:00.600 it made me mad that I'm living in America and that happened. And what makes me frustrated is

00:23:07.420 what people don't realize is if pastors of churches don't stand up and start being bold

00:23:12.980 like that, that is going to happen. And when it happens, it's going to happen because of the

00:23:17.780 cowardice in the pulpit and people that wouldn't stand or people that said, I just don't want to

00:23:21.560 be political. I don't want to get involved. It's too much time. You have to be involved. If you

00:23:26.420 care for people, if you love people, if you love God, because God is involved with the culture

00:23:30.660 He is.

00:23:31.080 He wants to see people change.

00:23:32.280 He doesn't just want to get me to heaven.

00:23:33.660 If he wanted to get me to heaven, he'd take me to heaven the moment I trusted him.

00:23:36.660 He wants me to be used by him as his mouthpiece, as a life that reflects the glory of God.

00:23:42.280 And so 2020 was radically changing for me.

00:23:46.240 It's made me stronger.

00:23:48.440 I have a lot more respect for the guys that kept their churches open, like Jack Hibbs.

00:23:52.580 I didn't know who Jack Hibbs was before 2020, and I'm watching him.

00:23:55.460 I'm like, okay, he's one of us.

00:23:56.680 I was watching Dr. John MacArthur, keeping his church open.

00:23:59.200 And they were just being stately.

00:24:00.780 They weren't being rude.

00:24:01.600 They weren't being mean.

00:24:02.440 They were just being honest.

00:24:03.560 And I'm like, these guys are my tribe.

00:24:05.500 Yeah, totally.

00:24:06.240 You talked about briefly there, like the authority of the government, what they can and can't

00:24:11.000 do, the responsibility of the government.

00:24:13.300 A lot of people listen to conservative or what I would just call biblical arguments

00:24:18.740 for these issues and the limited role of the state and the authority of the family and

00:24:24.420 the church.

00:24:24.880 and they're thinking, okay, but we have all of these people to care for, and I don't want to

00:24:32.120 vote against the programs, the welfare that helps the homeless, that help the poor. It just feels

00:24:39.860 more compassionate. Maybe they're even thinking, okay, I might agree with you on the trans stuff

00:24:44.560 or on the abortion stuff, but isn't it compassionate to use all of our tax dollars the way the

00:24:50.140 Democratic Party says that we should to help these people in need? Is that the role of the

00:24:55.360 government and where does the church come into that conversation? Well, some of it's my opinion

00:24:59.780 and I just, I don't see any government programs that are so fantastic that are helping all these

00:25:06.340 people. I think the church could do a better job if the church could do this, but even when church

00:25:10.500 does benevolence, it can turn into a welfare system too, right? If you don't have some things

00:25:15.360 in place. And what tends to happen is taxes increase, increase, increase, increase with

00:25:19.780 the promise that if you just give us more money, we'll make it better. And it's never been the

00:25:24.300 case. It's never been the case in my lifetime. And so even going back to our founding documents

00:25:29.620 and the freedom of speech and, you know, what people say in the churches, oh, separation of

00:25:33.260 church and state separate. And you're very familiar with all this. You realize it was a

00:25:37.340 Thomas Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptists telling them, hey, we will not interfere with

00:25:41.580 what you want to do as a church. That was the separation of church and state. It was to keep 0.83

00:25:44.820 the government out of the church, not to keep the church out of the government. So I think we have 0.75

00:25:48.800 to have Christians that are living for Jesus in government positions that are making policy that

00:25:56.440 align with the word of God for the betterment of all the people. So for me to sit here and say

00:26:01.560 every government program is terrible, it always has been, that's not my point. My point is if

00:26:06.460 people take personal responsibility and they look to help people, we would choose differently than

00:26:12.400 what we're currently doing. Yeah. There are people listening and watching who may not be

00:26:16.120 Christians, or maybe they just have a bad impression of the church. I heard this very 0.92

00:26:19.540 popular podcaster, a liberal podcaster the other day said, white evangelicals are a cancer to our 1.00

00:26:26.760 country. They're the worst people in the world. White evangelicals? White evangelicals specifically. 1.00

00:26:31.380 So that's her racial description. But when I look at evangelicals, no matter what their skin color

00:26:37.040 is, and really just Christians who go to church, who believe in God's word, who live out God's

00:26:42.200 where they are some of the most generous and charitable and giving and compassionate people

00:26:46.680 in the country. And actually statistics show that. So can you give us some examples of what

00:26:51.340 your church does in a culture, in a city that doesn't really like the message that you're

00:26:56.760 preaching and what you do? How do you tangibly love those communities and love those groups

00:27:01.440 rather than just outsourcing the compassion to the government?

00:27:04.400 Yeah, we do a lot of what we do through what we call cadres. Cadres are small groups on a mission.

00:27:08.660 That's what they are. And so it's interesting because everybody in a church, because of their

00:27:13.000 gifting, has a different pull to a different type of thing. So if you're an evangelist from the time

00:27:18.440 you're born, you think everybody needs to go out on 16th Street and share the gospel every weekend,

00:27:22.160 right? And then other people in the church are like, I don't want to do that. And then there's

00:27:25.260 other people that have gifts of encouragement. They just want to come around and encourage

00:27:27.780 everybody. So what we try to do is let people unleash what they want to do and be an influence

00:27:32.340 with where they're at. So some of our guys that are entrepreneur business owners, hey, do it with

00:27:37.440 those guys. Some of the people that are stay-at-home mom, do it with your tribe. I mean, so

00:27:42.500 how we do it is relationally. I mean, that's for sure. But our people have learned that truth is

00:27:48.680 a great commodity in these discussions. Because I think for a long time, whether it was a seeker 0.97

00:27:53.440 movement or, hey, I'm just going to come alongside, we're going to become best friends. And once we

00:27:57.420 build enough trust, then I can share Christ with you. I feel like those days are over. Maybe it's

00:28:01.600 because of just how God's wired me, or maybe it's because we're living in the last days.

00:28:05.240 but I think people are hungry to know what is the truth

00:28:09.240 and how do I know it

00:28:10.540 and can I see it lived out in a person's life?

00:28:14.260 So one of the reasons that your podcast is so relatable,

00:28:17.340 you're living out your values.

00:28:18.820 This is not something that you talk about

00:28:20.720 once a week or five times a week.

00:28:22.720 This is something that you're living out

00:28:24.020 with your husband, with your kids, with your family,

00:28:26.280 in your life, it means something to you.

00:28:28.280 So when people hear you talk,

00:28:30.000 that's what brings power to it.

00:28:31.760 And so instead of coming up with myriads of programs,

00:28:34.760 We don't come up with myriads of programs.

00:28:36.760 We train people to live out their God-given call

00:28:40.200 and their mandate to fulfill the Great Commission

00:28:42.640 by using their sphere of influence to do that.

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00:29:52.020 code Allie. How do you encourage those Christians? I'm sure there's a lot of them

00:30:00.760 in denver that they're working at a public school or they're working at a company that is completely

00:30:06.160 opposed to their values even wants to pressure them to use pronouns so lie about someone use

00:30:12.420 pronouns that don't correspond with their sex how do you help your congregants navigate truly

00:30:18.700 living out that truth and love dichotomy in such a dark space yeah i mean that's a that's a

00:30:24.160 challenging one because it's really easy to say truth in kind of a flippant way like who cares

00:30:30.540 You know, if you lose your job, you lose your job.

00:30:32.220 Well, if you lose your job, you don't have income to provide for your wife and for your

00:30:35.800 family.

00:30:36.100 So that's a big deal.

00:30:37.520 But what we always say is you never make the wrong decision by trusting God.

00:30:42.980 You never make the wrong.

00:30:43.880 God watches everything.

00:30:45.380 He sees everything.

00:30:46.760 And it depends on where you believe, who you believe your resource is.

00:30:50.100 So if God is your resource, not your job, that gives you a ton of freedom to live for

00:30:55.260 God, knowing that God's going to provide for you.

00:30:57.440 God's got your back.

00:30:58.200 And so that's how we treat those things.

00:31:00.460 And so we tell people, you can't be a born-again believer living out the mandates of the gospel

00:31:06.080 and lie.

00:31:07.380 You can't.

00:31:08.520 And so when you talk about the public school teacher, we have public school teachers that

00:31:11.280 go to our church.

00:31:12.300 We tell them, you are a light in a very dark place, and we love you, and we stand for you,

00:31:17.040 and we pray for you, and we're encouraging you.

00:31:19.660 And yeah, we understand it's difficult for you.

00:31:21.700 You can't stand up on a platform in the lunchroom and say, thus saith the Lord.

00:31:25.260 We get that.

00:31:25.800 But if kids ask you questions, you know, we're praying that you would have those answers.

00:31:29.540 And, you know, I just thought about this.

00:31:31.260 So I was a youth pastor in a couple of different cities.

00:31:33.540 So in Chicago, when I was a youth pastor in the Chicago area, you know, I was with my

00:31:37.240 students and they were introducing me to their friends.

00:31:39.960 It was almost like they were giving them a warning, like, hey, this is my youth pastor,

00:31:43.180 kind of like be on your best behavior.

00:31:44.900 Don't use bad language.

00:31:45.740 Don't talk about what we did last night.

00:31:47.680 When I lived in Texas, I would get invited to kids' schools.

00:31:50.800 And when I would go in to have lunch with them, they would give me a badge.

00:31:53.540 And it was almost like, this is my youth pastor.

00:31:55.140 They're like, hey, the governor's here.

00:31:56.420 Let's all sit with him.

00:31:58.160 I remember when we first moved to Denver and, you know, we moved into our neighborhood and

00:32:02.340 I was talking to my neighbor and asking what you do and asking him.

00:32:05.700 And he asked me, he's like, what do you do for a living?

00:32:07.400 I said, well, I pastor a church.

00:32:08.640 We moved out here to plant a church.

00:32:10.660 Had I said, we just moved here from another planet, the look on his face would have been

00:32:14.700 the same.

00:32:15.360 And he's like, like pastor, like, is that like a real, like, that's your job?

00:32:19.760 Like you get paid to do, I mean, that's Denver.

00:32:22.440 And so there's no like cultural,

00:32:26.160 oh, it's our pastor we love.

00:32:27.480 Now there is within our church as we built it,

00:32:30.000 but I just think we're living

00:32:31.960 in a very progressive leftist state.

00:32:34.580 And the funny thing is,

00:32:35.660 I don't know that we totally are.

00:32:37.320 I just think a lot of independents

00:32:38.720 and some of the conservatives,

00:32:40.220 they just don't vote.

00:32:40.840 I mean, you know this,

00:32:42.060 like if evangelical Christians

00:32:43.400 just voted their biblical values,

00:32:45.200 we would have a totally different set of governors,

00:32:48.180 totally different set of people in the house

00:32:49.840 and in the Senate.

00:32:50.460 But so many evangelicals that complain about how bad the world's going don't even vote.

00:32:55.540 Right.

00:32:55.860 I've talked to people from Colorado who say that, that actually a lot of their community

00:33:00.820 is just kind of instinctively conservative or at least libertarian.

00:33:05.040 They're really not on board with a lot of the tyranny that we see from left-wing Democrats.

00:33:10.360 But they're also, as you said, just kind of apathetic, individualistic, hedonistic.

00:33:15.980 They kind of like California.

00:33:17.560 Wow, we have this beautiful state.

00:33:19.080 We take advantage of the resources and we just kind of like don't want to bother anyone.

00:33:23.700 And the truth is, in order to be what politics would call conservative, but in order to be publicly biblical, there's just not a lot of social incentive for that.

00:33:34.040 There's not.

00:33:34.640 You could get punished at your job.

00:33:36.140 You could get excluded from your friend group.

00:33:38.320 You could be called a bigot online.

00:33:39.840 You could be accused of the worst things ever.

00:33:42.300 and most people don't have a desire to go against the grain

00:33:48.280 because how does it help them?

00:33:49.940 You really have to have a deep conviction

00:33:51.920 that no, no, no, that's evil.

00:33:54.100 This is right.

00:33:54.780 I'm motivated by something bigger than myself

00:33:57.360 and just what I want in the moment.

00:33:59.580 So that's very insightful that you said earlier.

00:34:01.240 It's not really these hard and fast progressive activists.

00:34:06.520 It's a lot of individualistic self-centered people

00:34:09.740 who just don't care enough.

00:34:11.200 Yeah, we're living in an era of passivity and cowardice, and that's what it is.

00:34:14.640 And so you know from your show, you know from what you do, if you're going to speak the

00:34:18.680 truth, there are going to be all sorts of threats and people that want to come after

00:34:22.860 you, hurt you, or whatever.

00:34:23.980 And that's what shuts people up.

00:34:25.340 And so it's fine, Allie, that you want to take that, but I don't want to take that.

00:34:28.460 So I'm just going to keep quiet.

00:34:29.640 We'll let Allie do her show because I agree with her.

00:34:32.560 And I think there's a lot of Christians in the background that agree with other Christians

00:34:36.520 that are standing out front.

00:34:37.640 but when they take that little step it could even be from their family like oh you're one of them

00:34:42.160 oh we don't want to talk to you anymore i mean all that stuff so i i earlier last year i got to

00:34:48.880 be in the oval office and pray over president trump and um the picture went out on a news feed

00:34:54.780 and i'm like my whole family's gonna see this so i gotta tell my family well my family's kind of

00:34:58.780 like split down the middle politically i knew it was going to cause division and so but i said hey

00:35:03.400 i was in the white house today i got to pray over president trump and i sent a picture and

00:35:07.260 immediately, you know, some people, oh, great. And then there was just silence. And then the

00:35:11.500 whole conversation shifted. But it's even like that, I think, for some people. So with family,

00:35:17.360 with friends, like, hey, you know what? I just want to go out to dinner and have fun.

00:35:21.500 I don't want to be known as the person that stands against that or does that. And it's the

00:35:24.860 same thing we tell young kids, you know, when they're going to say, hey, you don't need to go

00:35:27.840 out drinking with your friends. You don't need to be immoral. You don't need to just stand firm.

00:35:31.080 We're telling our kids to do that. Why don't we do that? And so I think the first time that you're

00:35:36.200 standing firm and people are attacking you for some biblical truth, it really hurts.

00:35:40.860 But then you start reading the word and it's like, rejoice and be glad. Your reward in heaven's

00:35:44.620 great. This is how they treat all the prophets. So if you're going to stand firm, I tell people

00:35:49.660 all the time, one plaque that I see nobody put up in their house is anyone who wants to live a 0.96

00:35:53.540 godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. And that's the fact. So I think there's a lot

00:35:58.260 of people that are on the sidelines cheering for people like you, cheering for pastors that preach

00:36:02.280 the truth, cheering for politicians that stand for what's right with biblical values, they just

00:36:06.640 don't want to identify with them because if they do, they're going to get grief too and they don't

00:36:10.440 want that. And it's time for all Christians everywhere to stand.

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00:37:38.020 I can't remember the specific legislation in Colorado. You might know. It was a couple years

00:37:44.420 ago, but there was some initiative that was pro-abortion, basically allowing abortion

00:37:50.960 through all nine months. Colorado is a very radically pro-abortion state in every stage

00:37:57.260 of development. They want to be the most pro-abortion state if we're not already. 0.58

00:38:01.100 Like a safe haven for abortion. But at the same time, there was another initiative that was to

00:38:07.460 protect some species of like wolf in Colorado. And I just thought it was an interesting and very

00:38:14.520 sad and dark juxtaposition that you will protect this endangered species of animal in Colorado,

00:38:21.600 but this human being who can feel pain, this image bearer of God, we can snuff out their life

00:38:27.580 through poison and dismemberment, decapitation through all nine months of pregnancy. And you've

00:38:36.900 got people who are at worst supportive of it, but then also just apathetic toward it.

00:38:42.840 100%.

00:38:43.200 Well, you were asking, hey, what do you do in your city?

00:38:45.560 Some of our cadres have been resistance cadres.

00:38:48.300 So some of our cadres have gone to abortion clinics and stood in front of them.

00:38:51.480 One actually shut down because of the work that we were doing.

00:38:54.800 One, I know there was a gal that was there. 0.96

00:38:57.560 We got to minister to.

00:38:58.480 She decided to have her baby and send us a picture. 1.00

00:39:00.480 We paid for her flight back home to Texas because she had flown in from Texas. 0.68

00:39:04.160 So there are stories of good things that the Lord is doing, but we tell our people all

00:39:08.860 the time.

00:39:09.360 I mean, we're living in Sodom.

00:39:11.160 I mean, we're living in Gomorrah.

00:39:12.600 We're right there doing all the same things.

00:39:15.360 So how do we as believers love people and stand for truth and call people out?

00:39:20.340 Because if we don't, nobody else is.

00:39:22.840 So we had a group of our men probably two years ago.

00:39:26.540 There was a drag queen story hour at a festival, and they went and they just stood up and basically said, we're for children.

00:39:34.740 And they turned their backs to the stage and just didn't protest, didn't do anything else, didn't say anything.

00:39:39.320 and it made the news that Brave Church is this radical, hateful, all this kind of stuff.

00:39:44.940 A couple of our guys ended up getting arrested.

00:39:46.760 They were let off once they went to trial.

00:39:48.320 I mean, but it's those kind of things.

00:39:50.100 And there were people that even left our church.

00:39:51.440 Like, if we're going to be that kind of person, you know, nobody's going to come to our alpha

00:39:54.580 class anymore.

00:39:55.300 I'm like, what are you talking about?

00:39:56.960 If we don't stand for what's true in our culture, all we're doing is sitting over here on the

00:40:03.200 side, patting ourselves on the back.

00:40:04.560 And it reminds me of, you know, when I hear Eric Metaxas talk and my grandfather, who

00:40:09.920 was Jewish, who survived the Holocaust, you know, where Christian churches were gathered

00:40:13.520 in Germany singing hymns while trains were taking people to the concentration camps and

00:40:17.800 they're not saying anything.

00:40:18.720 That's wrong.

00:40:19.960 That's wrong.

00:40:20.680 And so when we see things in our culture that are flat out wrong and we don't say anything,

00:40:24.780 then we're complicit with evil and we can't be that.

00:40:26.980 Yeah, totally.

00:40:28.280 What is your encouragement to a pastor who's maybe listening to this?

00:40:32.260 Maybe they live in a liberal city, but maybe they don't.

00:40:35.160 And they've realized, okay, I think I've maybe missed it.

00:40:38.300 And they just feel that conviction from the Holy Spirit to be more clear.

00:40:41.940 What should they do?

00:40:42.600 First of all, I love all pastors.

00:40:43.920 I just do.

00:40:44.600 And I think what you said is right.

00:40:45.860 I think a majority of pastors really want to do a good job.

00:40:48.500 I think a majority of pastors really love their flock.

00:40:50.660 I think they have to take a lot of grief too.

00:40:52.220 Sometimes it's from their elders and sometimes it's from people in the congregation that

00:40:55.500 have been longstanding members or big tithers and givers.

00:40:58.800 And that's what pays them.

00:40:59.820 And here's what I would say.

00:41:01.520 trust the authority of God's word

00:41:02.820 and don't apologize for that.

00:41:04.720 Stand firm on the truth, keep preaching.

00:41:06.780 If God takes people out of your church,

00:41:08.240 he'll bring three to five new people in

00:41:09.820 for everyone he takes out.

00:41:10.900 That's what he does.

00:41:12.260 And at the end of your life,

00:41:13.720 and I tell our congregation this all the time,

00:41:15.840 I'm not scared of preaching the word

00:41:17.380 as far as what people are gonna say about me.

00:41:19.920 I'm very intimidated

00:41:20.820 because I know I give an account for every word I say.

00:41:22.880 And I'm much more fearful of the Lord.

00:41:24.960 And I think what we've lost in our culture

00:41:26.760 is the fear of the Lord.

00:41:29.160 And as Christians, we've lost the fear of the Lord.

00:41:31.600 We're like, well, I'm a Christian, so I can sin and God will forgive me.

00:41:34.120 And yes, God will forgive you, but that's not the fear of the Lord.

00:41:37.240 The fear of the Lord is why would I want to sin?

00:41:39.260 I want to honor him.

00:41:40.360 And so to all the pastors out there, I would say, you know, you're calling, you know why

00:41:44.200 God called you, open the word of God, preach it, teach your people to pray and watch what

00:41:49.600 he does.

00:41:50.300 Can I ask you, what is the hardest part about being a pastor?

00:41:54.080 and dovetail that with the question like,

00:41:56.540 what is the biggest thing that you hope people pray for you

00:42:00.240 and pray for their own pastors?

00:42:01.940 I think the weight, the weight of what it means to be a pastor.

00:42:05.540 I mean, you're responsible for souls.

00:42:06.960 So if you have, I mean, we've been every church size.

00:42:08.860 We started at 12 and now we're over 5,000.

00:42:10.800 I mean, so you're, but you're responsible

00:42:13.100 for each one of those people,

00:42:14.260 regardless of what your role is.

00:42:15.680 And your job is to spiritually nourish them

00:42:17.780 in such a way that they hear the truth.

00:42:19.800 So my wife can tell you every Saturday at our house,

00:42:22.700 it's chaos.

00:42:23.220 I feel the weight before I go in to preach.

00:42:25.980 Sunday morning, I preach.

00:42:27.100 I wake up on Monday morning and I'm defeated, discouraged, whatever.

00:42:30.860 And I've learned over the years to rest in my identity and all that stuff.

00:42:34.540 So I don't feel like quitting every Monday or anything like that.

00:42:36.840 But I think the way people can pray for me is that I would be faith.

00:42:39.540 I ask people this all the time because people will say stuff like this and they mean well.

00:42:43.600 Like, hey, we're just praying that you stay humble.

00:42:46.240 You know, I hope you stay humble, to which I always want to say, I hope you stay humble

00:42:49.260 too, you know.

00:42:50.260 But I think what they're saying is we've seen pastors fall and we have.

00:42:54.440 I mean, good friends of mine have fallen.

00:42:56.480 And I think what they're saying is we don't want to see that, you know?

00:42:59.600 And so what I tell people all the time, the best way you can pray for me is to pray that

00:43:03.040 my relationship with Jesus stays strong, that I'm spending time with Jesus, that I'm letting

00:43:08.060 him change me and that you can ask me, hey, what are you hearing from God lately?

00:43:11.620 How's God working in your life?

00:43:13.360 So that if I have a close relationship with Jesus, all the other things take care of themselves.

00:43:17.860 Because I think one of the dangers in being a pastor is, well, I'm doing ministry.

00:43:21.420 I mean, I'm the pastor.

00:43:22.860 And so you can lose Bible study reading.

00:43:25.020 You can lose prayer time.

00:43:26.060 You can lose, because I'm doing ministry.

00:43:27.360 I'm meeting with people.

00:43:28.580 And the most important thing you can do is prayer and the ministry of the word.

00:43:31.520 So staying close to God in prayer, staying close to God in the word and letting him continue

00:43:35.600 to change you.

00:43:36.260 So if anybody prays anything for me, it's a pray that Pastor Jeff stays really, really

00:43:41.740 close to Jesus so that Jesus can tell him what he needs to do.

00:43:44.540 because there's nobody that can change us like Jesus, right?

00:43:48.240 And so I think that's the prayer for all people, honestly,

00:43:50.820 but especially for pastors is pray that their walk with Jesus is so close

00:43:55.660 that they have the ear of Jesus.

00:43:57.260 They can hear what Jesus is saying through his word

00:43:59.260 and through conversations where they know how to walk in obedience

00:44:02.820 and continue to do that.

00:44:05.360 Pastors and all Christians can feel really demoralized,

00:44:09.300 especially living in a particularly godless place.

00:44:14.340 What are some ways, even small ways, that you have seen light triumph over darkness

00:44:20.160 through your church, through God's Word, and the community where you live?

00:44:23.860 Yeah.

00:44:24.260 Well, I think courage begets courage.

00:44:26.560 And so, you know, I think it was 2021 or 2022, I think it was 2021, that we decided,

00:44:32.140 okay, we're just going to have Easter outside.

00:44:35.600 And so we rented a place at Bandamere Speedway, which was in Colorado at the time.

00:44:41.000 And, you know, we opened our doors, had 10,000 people.

00:44:43.700 we did it the next year had 12,000 people come

00:44:45.620 and we just shared the gospel.

00:44:46.760 We've seen hundreds of people come to Christ.

00:44:48.640 And what I would say is when we first moved to Denver

00:44:51.580 and somebody like Chris Tomlin would come to town

00:44:53.900 or some big artist and I would go see a show,

00:44:57.100 I would say Peoria, Illinois has more Christians than this.

00:45:01.060 Like there's, it's just not a thing

00:45:02.860 or Faith Day at the Rockies.

00:45:04.480 It's just not a thing.

00:45:05.700 I've watched the spiritual temperature of Christians rise

00:45:08.420 over the last 15 years.

00:45:09.540 I've seen more people becoming more sold out to Jesus

00:45:13.140 over the last 15 years.

00:45:14.280 And much like Elijah, when he was complaining to the Lord, 0.91

00:45:18.140 like, I'm the only one, everybody else has bowed.

00:45:20.900 And God's like, no, there's not.

00:45:21.820 There's 7,000 over here that haven't bowed.

00:45:23.660 There's more than you think.

00:45:25.760 And so I think even in Colorado,

00:45:27.540 I have great hope for Colorado.

00:45:29.240 I have great hope.

00:45:29.780 That's why I'm there.

00:45:30.640 If I did, I tell our church all the time,

00:45:31.860 don't move to a red state.

00:45:33.220 God called you here.

00:45:34.220 Don't go where it's comfortable, stay in the fight.

00:45:37.280 And I look and I see it on all fronts.

00:45:39.320 I think there are people that are feeling called by God

00:45:42.100 to step up.

00:45:42.880 My friend, Victor Marks, is running for governor in the state of Colorado, is a born-again,

00:45:47.820 spirit-filled man that only wants to run to be top cover for the state so a lot of these

00:45:51.840 bad policies don't get put in place.

00:45:53.740 I see people rising.

00:45:55.080 I see people standing up.

00:45:56.300 I see light coming through, and I see more and more people being unapologetic for their

00:46:01.180 relationship with Christ, and I love them.

00:46:02.840 Praise God.

00:46:08.240 Last sponsor for the day is Concerned Women for America.

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00:47:22.580 I got to meet your daughter when I was in Denver just a few weeks ago speaking to your

00:47:27.360 church, which was such an amazing day.

00:47:29.260 They loved having you.

00:47:30.160 Yes.

00:47:30.680 Well, I loved being there.

00:47:31.680 Can you give some encouragements to parents who are like, you know what?

00:47:35.960 I love my kids, but I'm looking at this future generation and I'm worried.

00:47:41.060 I'm worried about the state of our country.

00:47:42.400 I'm worried about their spiritual state.

00:47:44.800 What would you tell those parents?

00:47:46.120 Yeah, my wife and I talk about this all the time.

00:47:47.980 We were marriage experts before we got married and we were parent experts before we had kids.

00:47:52.100 What we've learned is that prayer is primary for both.

00:47:55.360 And I don't just throw that out there and say, oh, just pray.

00:47:57.700 I mean, pray intentionally for each child.

00:48:00.880 Pray intentionally for their gifts and then speak words of life over them.

00:48:04.860 because it's pretty easy to be someone

00:48:08.860 that looks at all the problems

00:48:09.940 and calls out all the problems.

00:48:11.000 Anybody can call out the problems,

00:48:12.840 but to look and say, but God created you

00:48:14.920 in the midst of all that.

00:48:15.760 You're gonna make a difference in this world.

00:48:17.360 We believe in you.

00:48:18.180 We love you.

00:48:18.640 We believe Jesus is doing something in you.

00:48:20.220 And so as your kids learn to hear the voice of the Lord

00:48:22.640 and as they hear you encouraging them

00:48:24.740 and praying for them and loving them,

00:48:27.080 we just trust that God's gonna do the work.

00:48:28.900 So any good things that have come out of our kids,

00:48:30.540 we love all three of our kids.

00:48:31.660 We think God's doing great things in them.

00:48:32.840 it's really not us. I'm not going to write a parenting book on here's the five steps to have

00:48:37.400 a great kid because I don't even know what those are other than be present, love them, encourage

00:48:43.920 them, pray for them, believe God's best for them and tell them they're a difference maker. They're

00:48:48.320 to be salt and light in a world. So when you see these evils and when you see these things,

00:48:52.820 hey, that's why God created you because you're going to make a difference. And darkness doesn't

00:48:56.820 overcome light, light always overcomes darkness. What good things do you see in Gen Z and even,

00:49:03.680 I think it's Gen Alpha after that, that give you hope that, okay, God's doing something.

00:49:09.720 Yeah. So I started off as a youth pastor. And here about a year ago, I said, I'm getting back

00:49:14.780 involved with our students because I still feel like I have an anointing with high school students.

00:49:18.120 And so what I'm seeing with students is they have a passion and they're very missional. I don't see

00:49:24.880 kids growing up saying, what's my job going to be and how much money am I going to make and all this

00:49:27.860 stuff, they tend to be asking the question, how can my life make a difference? And I love that.

00:49:33.380 And what we're seeing in Gen Z, you're seeing more young people go back to church, especially

00:49:36.600 young men going back to church, wanting to be part of a life-giving church that preaches the

00:49:42.560 word where truth is known. So I see incredible hope. I mean, we're seeing glimpses of revival.

00:49:48.600 We're seeing stories of, even colleges, like a year ago, the whole Ohio State Buckeye team was

00:49:54.500 having revivals on the campus. And I was able to, I did chapel for the New England Patriots two

00:49:59.200 weeks ago, which is why Denver was blaming me for the loss. But got to meet a couple of those guys

00:50:05.080 that had been part of that team. I mean, there's a genuine love for the Lord in that generation,

00:50:09.660 and I'm seeing it change. And so I want to be a part of that too. We talk about passing the

00:50:14.880 baton all the time. I'm 55 now. It's like, I'm not getting any younger. So the more we can raise up

00:50:20.300 that generation, because there's a lot of leaders that want to make a difference. And the questions

00:50:23.960 that they're asking are the right questions.

00:50:25.900 So we have a lot of young guys in our church.

00:50:27.660 They wanna go on, they wanna be pastors,

00:50:28.920 they wanna be evangelists,

00:50:29.780 they wanna go do the work of the Lord

00:50:30.980 and they're doing it right now

00:50:32.600 and they're celebrating what God's doing.

00:50:34.460 So I'm super excited about the next generation.

00:50:36.340 Yeah, that's so exciting.

00:50:37.480 Can you give us just one last bit of encouragement

00:50:40.140 or whatever final message you wanna give?

00:50:43.500 Mostly women and moms who are listening to this,

00:50:46.400 we do have a wide array of people,

00:50:48.600 but women and moms especially, 0.99

00:50:51.120 they feel very anxious right now

00:50:52.680 For a lot of different reasons, they might need some shepherding of their hearts right now and

00:50:58.560 just a little bit of edification from a pastor. Absolutely. Well, I love moms and young women.

00:51:04.980 I love my wife and I've watched all that she's done over the years to love kids. And I think

00:51:10.200 moms just have a different relationship with their kids than dads do. They just do. And my

00:51:15.360 encouragement would be it's easy. I think it's easy for women to listen to all the noise that's 1.00

00:51:20.460 out there. And it's pretty easy to get a lot of news really quickly and then ruminate on how bad,

00:51:26.700 look at how bad this is. Look at how bad this is. It wasn't like this 20 years ago. It wasn't like

00:51:30.960 this when I was a kid. Wow, it's going from bad to worse. Here's what I would say. Jesus Christ

00:51:35.440 is still Lord over all. He's still on the throne. Spend more time seeking his face. Because what I

00:51:40.640 find is even when I start ruminating on those things and saying, oh my goodness, look at us.

00:51:44.620 This is so bad. We can't turn back. When I spend time at the foot of Jesus, I hear him say,

00:51:49.820 I'm still in control. This is nothing's, nothing's spinning. I'm not nervous. I'm not biting my

00:51:54.420 fingernails. You don't need to be nervous either. Just be my voice piece. And guess what? I'm coming

00:51:58.780 back to make this right. Until I do, I'll empower you to make a difference. So keep making a

00:52:03.600 difference. So moms, wives, you're making a huge difference in the life and community of your kids 0.93

00:52:09.760 and your husband. And if you're working outside the home, that's great. So continue just to trust

00:52:14.340 the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Amen. And if someone's in the Denver

00:52:18.440 area, and they're like, hey, I'm looking for a church. Where can they find more information?

00:52:22.740 Yeah, go to brave.org. Brave.org. Very easy to remember. That's our website. Maybe you want to

00:52:28.800 wait two weeks so that you can see the updated website. But at the end of the day, yeah, go there.

00:52:33.280 We'd love to have you visit if you're out in the Denver area.

00:52:35.180 Awesome. Pastor Jeff, thank you so much.

00:52:37.160 Hey, thanks for having me. It's been great.

00:52:48.440 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 13, 2026

Ep 1317 ｜ This Pastor's Phone Call Shook His Progressive Governor ｜ Jeff Schwarzentraub

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