Ep 1317 ｜ This Pastor's Phone Call Shook His Progressive Governor ｜ Jeff Schwarzentraub
Episode Stats
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Summary
Pastor Jeff Swarzentraub of Brave Church in Denver, Colorado joins us to talk about courage and the responsibility of both pastors and Christians in shining light in the darkness, and how we can make a difference by seemingly small acts of obedience to God.
Transcript
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In the past year, Colorado has passed some of the most radically pro-trans legislation in the country, including a law that threatens parents that they will lose custody of their child if they don't go along with their son or daughter's so-called gender transition.
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Colorado has also become a safe haven for abortion through all nine months of pregnancy.
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And against this very anti-biblical, dark and depraved backdrop is Brave Church.
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This is a church in Denver, Colorado, that is led by Pastor Jeff.
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He is here today to talk about courage and the responsibility of both pastors and Christians
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in shining light in the darkness, in speaking the truth in love, and how we can actually
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make a difference by seemingly small acts of obedience to God.
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This is an incredibly edifying and educational conversation that you guys are going to love.
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Pastor Jeff, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
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Could you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what you do?
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I'm the senior pastor of Brave Church in the Denver, Colorado area.
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Yes, and you all are indeed brave against this backdrop of Denver,
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which as we were talking about before the camera started rolling,
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Can you talk about some of the changes you've seen in the city over the past decade or so?
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So originally I'm from central Illinois, lived in Dallas for four years, probably similar
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When we moved out to Denver, we realized very quickly that is not the vibe in Denver, which
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is one of the reasons we wanted to go and plant there.
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But even since we've been there over the last 15 years, I mean, with the legalization of
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marijuana. I mean, people move to Denver, I say, for the three Ms, for marijuana, for the mountains,
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and for Mile High, if they like the Broncos. And so that's really why they come. People do not
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migrate to Denver for community. They migrate for hedonism. And so what you see in our culture is
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a group of people. My wife and I were talking about it this morning. We used to say Denver is
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the happiest group of lost people on the entire planet. People move there to be outdoors, to be
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active, to enjoy what they do, and usually do it by themselves. It's a very hedonistic
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lifestyle and culture. Would you say over the past 15 years that you've been there,
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the hedonism has increased? Oh, absolutely. I mean, when people start going down a road
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where I'm going to live for me and it's all about me, there's no U-turn on that road apart from
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Christ. And so it just keeps spiraling that way. It's crazy how Colorado has turned so deeply
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secular and progressive. It didn't used to be that way. It was a conservative stronghold for a long
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time. And then I guess migration from the blue states, maybe even immigration, just changed the
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demographics, changed the politics. And now it kind of helps along with California, Oregon,
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and Washington lead the charge for progressive radicalism. We're talking the most radical
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transgender ideology in the country has been passed legislatively in the state of Colorado.
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Because some people may not know how far gone, I don't want to use that terminology, but
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You got to get a vaccine, all these different things.
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And we were really questioning that from the beginning.
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all the martyrs that have been martyred for their faith
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because there was COVID and we were playing it safe.
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from saying, you don't love us, you don't care,
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And what we've seen is just this whole progressive ideology move.
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So there was a House Bill 1312 that got passed.
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It got modified a little bit because people put up a big fight.
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But basically in Colorado, what they're trying to do is be able to take your kids, be able
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to castrate them or do whatever they want without your permission.
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And if you don't agree, they don't even have to tell you.
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And so I find myself in a unique position because I think the way I was trained, the
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way I was raised is like, keep the gospel, the gospel, make it about the cross, the burial,
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the resurrection of Jesus. Don't get involved in politics. Because I grew up in Peoria, Illinois,
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which was a melting pot and a test market for everything. I grew up with Democrats, Republicans,
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but that was in an era of Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan. So we would, our parents would vote
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different and we'd all play football together and eat Thanksgiving dinner and nobody cared.
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We didn't talk about it, but it's moved from a right and left issue to a right and wrong issue.
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And so everything that I feel like I get involved with that's quote unquote political, they're
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So the transgender issue, that's a biblical issue.
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You can't even get out of Genesis chapter one and not believe that.
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So when we've teached the Bible, we teach the Bible.
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And so if you really want to tick off leftists, just teach Genesis one because leftists are
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Well, God says you got here because I'm God and I've always existed.
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God is addressing those in the very first chapter
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for us to be able to say, hey, this is what it is.
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speaking truth, doing things I never thought I would do.
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But to stay silent on biblical issues is to be complicit with evil, and I just won't do it.
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And in case some people think that you're exaggerating when you're saying, oh, Colorado
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And you're referring to, I think, the Kelly Loving Act, correct?
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It's supposed to go into effect in October 2026.
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And this is, well, I guess there might be two different ones.
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So there's one that has to do with pronouns, so-called gender expressions, that requires you to affirm and respect someone's pronouns if they identify as the opposite sex.
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And there is another piece of legislation that basically calls it child abuse.
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If a parent says, you know, I'm not going to go along with this.
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Well, I'm not going to put him on puberty blockers, chemically castrate him.
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I'm going to help him affirm his masculinity, that is considered child abuse and could possibly
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put your custody of your own child at risk in the state of Colorado.
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And I find that too many churches are afraid to stand up and say that's wrong.
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That's how God designed them and you're responsible for them.
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I see the radical leftist movement in Colorado.
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And so people, I mean, having lived in Dallas before for four years, there's a cultural
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I mean, if you go work out at a health club, you can hear people talking where they go
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to church and what they thought about the service.
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And so that's why we like being where we are, just to be a voice from the Lord saying,
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And you joined other pastors last year in the Denver area to try to push back against this legislation.
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I remember you wrote an open letter, right, to the legislature saying, hey, slow your roll.
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I urge you not to sign on to this, not to pass this pro-transgender, anti-parental rights legislation, right?
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Because, again, every time I do that, I find myself looking up to the heavens like, God, why me?
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If you care about our kids, if you care about the family, if you care about church and what
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I learned in 2020 is that God loves his church.
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And our job in the church is to honor him and to honor his word and to stay true to
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We try to, hey, what can I and can't I say to keep members here?
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And so I think it's imperative for pastors of churches,
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whether you're in conservative areas or liberal areas,
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I just don't know that enough pastors trust the authority of God's word enough to say,
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this is what I'm called to do, and I'm going to stand on this no matter what,
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because I'm not an authority on the word. The word's an authority over me.
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I know a lot of pastors who are solid guys. They love their families. They seem to love the Lord,
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and they will preach God's word, but they will not claim God's authority over every sphere of life.
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So they might stop short of calling on the civil magistrate to stop legislation that is evil and
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could hurt kids. Maybe they would preach through Genesis 1, but they would say, okay, that's where
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my responsibility ends. I'm not going into the civic realm and saying, don't pass this law.
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But you said, no, it's not only my responsibility to preach the gospel and preach God's word, but I also need to use this pulpit and use this platform to call on the governors, the legislators to say, no, no, no, this is wrong and here's why.
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Right. I mean, even if you read through your Bible, just a cursory reading, I mean, John the Baptist wasn't beheaded because he was going to the synagogue and teaching about marriage being between one man and one woman.
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And he was standing outside the king's palace telling him he was immoral and wrong.
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So I think we've missed the mark on what it is.
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We think teaching the word is just, hey, our job is just to teach Christians.
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No, our job is to herald the word in a culture that's not willing to hear it.
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And that's where we have to stand up because I believe this wholeheartedly.
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One of the things I loved about Charlie was Charlie would say the most important message
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But the second is fighting for a culture that will allow the gospel to flourish.
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Now, to be clear, the gospel will flourish in any environment.
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The gospel can flourish in totalitarian environments.
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And if Christians don't stand up and live out the gospel and call people to live the
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gospel, then we will be living in a culture that we never, ever wanted.
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Because the leftists, I'm not talking about people that lean left democratic.
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I'm talking about people that have an anti-biblical agenda, which is a big part of that party right now going that way.
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If you're going that way and nobody's standing in the line saying, no, we're going to hold the line, we're going to do this, then the whole culture is going to go that way.
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And culture is downstream from politics and politics is downstream from family and family is downstream from the church.
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And if the church does not herald the word of God clearly to the entire city that it's in, then we have the mess that we're in.
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And when the cultural mess comes, then people are like, well, that's just culture.
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That's just, no, that's from bad preaching of the word of God in your culture.
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Yeah, we've been using an alliteration for several years on this show.
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Politics matter because policy matters because people matter.
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And therefore, the Christian does have a responsibility to involve ourselves in politics
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because our politics affect our unborn neighbor.
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They affect people who are impacted by all different kinds of immigration, economic, abortion, gender policies.
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And if we love our neighbor, then the most loving thing we can do is agree with God, both privately and publicly.
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Charlie and I always talked about this concept that some pastors, you mentioned some pastors,
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they don't fully trust in the authority of Scripture just to be their guiding light and to say,
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this is what God's Word says, I'm not going to apologize for it, because a lot of people think that they're nicer than God.
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that maybe they can out-compassion God, or they need to kind of let God off the hook,
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because some people think God is so mean for saying there's only two genders. And
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let me nuance this a little bit, because I think my message could actually be more persuasive
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than the message of the creator of the universe. And at the end of the day,
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that is, it's no small thing, that's actually self-idolatry. That goes all the way back to
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the garden of like, I want to be like God. I want to be the one to determine good and evil, right?
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It's 100% pride. And I find that too. And if we'd have been doing this podcast maybe 10 years ago
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or something like this, we were living in a different time. I mean, the culture has shifted
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so quickly in a direction that, you know, and the way I was trained, like I said, here's the gospel,
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the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That's it. But it's not because the
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gospel changes who I am. It changes my identity and how I'm supposed to live. And if the gospel
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is just getting people to heaven, we miss out on everything that God's doing in his word.
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The gospel changes me. Yes, there's nothing I can do. There's no works I can do. All that stuff is
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true. So I believe in Jesus, but believing is not just a cognitive mental ascent. Like, okay,
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I believe Jesus died. It's he's the Lord of my life. And if he's the Lord, then he gets to
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control what I do. And so when I see things that are wrong in a culture and I don't confront them
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then I'm being complicit with that cultural norm.
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You go through the Bible and every single person,
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how they could warmly greet everybody and love it.
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We're called to submit to him, to love each other radically.
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And what you talked about, we have the message of love wrong.
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No, love is a decision to preference others and show them the truth.
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And so what you're doing on your show, I appreciate you.
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You're a voice of clarity in a world of confusion.
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And so it's an honor to be here talking to you.
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And pastors who are clear from the pulpit make the podcaster's job a lot easier.
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It's much harder to be a pastor than it is to be a podcaster because you are not only
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talking from a pulpit, but you're shepherding a flock of people that God has entrusted to you
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to help steward their souls to heaven, but also to advance God's kingdom on earth. And that's a
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really big task. And when someone is going to a church and they're not getting clarity from their
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pastor and they're like, okay, I got that message, but I still have no idea what right and wrong is
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when it comes to these issues. I'm just going to turn on relatable. I'm happy to help give clarity,
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but I'm not a pastor. I don't want to be a pastor. I would love to be an auxiliary help
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to your pastor, but my hope is that every pastor from a pulpit would be so clear that every
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congregant would then walk away and say, okay, I know exactly what God's Word says about abortion
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or about gender. Now I'll listen to Allie just for fun. But we've kind of gotten into this mess
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where a lot of people feel like they have to turn to podcasters because their pastor just won't
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tell them the truth. That's exactly right. I mean, you're preaching for me because if I could
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say anything to pastors out there, it's trust the word. I know when we launched our church in 2010,
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and we started with 12 people on launch Sunday, we had 208, and then I bragged that we grew it to
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113 and all that stuff. But there were so many times where I'm just rolling through a text and
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I would tell Kim, my wife, this is going to be a congregational tremor. People aren't going to
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like this. And inevitably some of the times it was, but I remember thinking when we first started
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the church, I'm like, my youth group in Texas was bigger than this church. What am I doing wrong?
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And I was really encouraged by some of my mentors. It's not about the size of your church,
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just keep preaching who you want to disciple and then they will come. And now we're in a place
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after 15 years of doing this, that when people walk into Brave, they know they're going to get
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the word. I mean, I don't have to apologize for anything. I can preach any text in the Bible and
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people are hungry for it, and they want it, and they're thankful for it, and it's so good.
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And that's why I tell our church all the time, there's no other church I would rather pastor
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than y'all, because we're building something together, and God's doing something. And to
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your point, we are standing against a culture that is very, very different than us right in
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the center of Denver. And we love that, and we love it. We want to reach our city with love and
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You know, you mentioned COVID and I know we've kind of gotten off of that and I kind of want
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to go back because you said that that really changed how you thought about politics and in
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some ways leadership and the gospel and how you preach things. What I find interesting is that
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for a lot of people, they look back at COVID and they're like, well, that made me really scared.
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That was the era that my fear deepened, where my mistrust deepened. And it sounds like for you and
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your church, you're saying, well, actually God used that very fearful, chaotic time to make us
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braver and to make us bolder and to make us more clear. Can you talk more about that? The lessons
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that you learned during COVID? Yeah. I mean, there's myriads of lessons. I think it was a
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case study and process like we talked about, but as we prayed about it, I was like, we have to open
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our doors. Like, how can you make disciples if you're not in person? Like, how can you do what
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we're called to do if we're not going to meet together? And the Bible says you should meet
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together and all the more as you see the day approaching. And why should I have to listen to
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somebody saying that strip clubs and marijuana dispensaries are essential, but my church isn't.
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And so I remember I was on a phone call with our governor about the third time they had one of
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these clergy calls. And my friend who had worked in the governor's office told me how to hit star
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six or something, I can't remember, and get in the queue. And I was the third person up. And they
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said, okay, Pastor Jeff from Brave Church. And I remember asking, this was very early on. I'm like,
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hey, governor, appreciate what you do. Appreciate the fact no matter what you choose, people are
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going to be upset with you. We're praying for you because we're called to do that in the word.
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why you've trimmed our churches down to 50 people.
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There's thousands of people walking around unmasked.
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And so I just wanna know what to tell our congregation.
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And I hung up and he just started ranting for five minutes.
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And so when we did, I think the first Sunday back, we had like 72 people or something like
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And I was in the front during worship crying with my wife, like, I will always keep our
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So I think pre-COVID, we were about 1,800 people.
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We had to get a different building and everything.
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And then our whole congregation changed because the people that came, like, I remember a guy
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He didn't know I was the pastor and I could overhear him talking to his daughters.
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I won't say exactly what he said, but he said something to the effect of he's walking around
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because we would put up signs, but we didn't enforce anything.
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And so it was the first place he'd been with a large group of people that were Christian
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where nobody's wearing a mask and everybody's happy.
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And I remember he said to his daughter, he's like, I don't care if this pastor stinks,
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And so what I learned during 2020, one of the other things was that the church dictates
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We don't take our cues from the government who tells us we need to close.
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If we need to close, we'll decide that we need to close.
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And what I realized is when I'm praying in 2020 with my wife in the kitchen before I
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go to church in Denver, Colorado, and I'm praying with her because my kids were younger
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then saying, hey, if I go to prison day, if I get arrested, just tell the kids, daddy's
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going to go share the gospel in a different place.
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it made me mad that I'm living in America and that happened. And what makes me frustrated is
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what people don't realize is if pastors of churches don't stand up and start being bold
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like that, that is going to happen. And when it happens, it's going to happen because of the
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cowardice in the pulpit and people that wouldn't stand or people that said, I just don't want to
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be political. I don't want to get involved. It's too much time. You have to be involved. If you
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care for people, if you love people, if you love God, because God is involved with the culture
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If he wanted to get me to heaven, he'd take me to heaven the moment I trusted him.
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He wants me to be used by him as his mouthpiece, as a life that reflects the glory of God.
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I have a lot more respect for the guys that kept their churches open, like Jack Hibbs.
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I didn't know who Jack Hibbs was before 2020, and I'm watching him.
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I was watching Dr. John MacArthur, keeping his church open.
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You talked about briefly there, like the authority of the government, what they can and can't
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A lot of people listen to conservative or what I would just call biblical arguments
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for these issues and the limited role of the state and the authority of the family and
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and they're thinking, okay, but we have all of these people to care for, and I don't want to
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vote against the programs, the welfare that helps the homeless, that help the poor. It just feels
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more compassionate. Maybe they're even thinking, okay, I might agree with you on the trans stuff
00:24:44.560
or on the abortion stuff, but isn't it compassionate to use all of our tax dollars the way the
00:24:50.140
Democratic Party says that we should to help these people in need? Is that the role of the
00:24:55.360
government and where does the church come into that conversation? Well, some of it's my opinion
00:24:59.780
and I just, I don't see any government programs that are so fantastic that are helping all these
00:25:06.340
people. I think the church could do a better job if the church could do this, but even when church
00:25:10.500
does benevolence, it can turn into a welfare system too, right? If you don't have some things
00:25:15.360
in place. And what tends to happen is taxes increase, increase, increase, increase with
00:25:19.780
the promise that if you just give us more money, we'll make it better. And it's never been the
00:25:24.300
case. It's never been the case in my lifetime. And so even going back to our founding documents
00:25:29.620
and the freedom of speech and, you know, what people say in the churches, oh, separation of
00:25:33.260
church and state separate. And you're very familiar with all this. You realize it was a
00:25:37.340
Thomas Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptists telling them, hey, we will not interfere with
00:25:41.580
what you want to do as a church. That was the separation of church and state. It was to keep
00:25:44.820
the government out of the church, not to keep the church out of the government. So I think we have
00:25:48.800
to have Christians that are living for Jesus in government positions that are making policy that
00:25:56.440
align with the word of God for the betterment of all the people. So for me to sit here and say
00:26:01.560
every government program is terrible, it always has been, that's not my point. My point is if
00:26:06.460
people take personal responsibility and they look to help people, we would choose differently than
00:26:12.400
what we're currently doing. Yeah. There are people listening and watching who may not be
00:26:16.120
Christians, or maybe they just have a bad impression of the church. I heard this very
00:26:19.540
popular podcaster, a liberal podcaster the other day said, white evangelicals are a cancer to our
00:26:26.760
country. They're the worst people in the world. White evangelicals? White evangelicals specifically.
00:26:31.380
So that's her racial description. But when I look at evangelicals, no matter what their skin color
00:26:37.040
is, and really just Christians who go to church, who believe in God's word, who live out God's
00:26:42.200
where they are some of the most generous and charitable and giving and compassionate people
00:26:46.680
in the country. And actually statistics show that. So can you give us some examples of what
00:26:51.340
your church does in a culture, in a city that doesn't really like the message that you're
00:26:56.760
preaching and what you do? How do you tangibly love those communities and love those groups
00:27:01.440
rather than just outsourcing the compassion to the government?
00:27:04.400
Yeah, we do a lot of what we do through what we call cadres. Cadres are small groups on a mission.
00:27:08.660
That's what they are. And so it's interesting because everybody in a church, because of their
00:27:13.000
gifting, has a different pull to a different type of thing. So if you're an evangelist from the time
00:27:18.440
you're born, you think everybody needs to go out on 16th Street and share the gospel every weekend,
00:27:22.160
right? And then other people in the church are like, I don't want to do that. And then there's
00:27:25.260
other people that have gifts of encouragement. They just want to come around and encourage
00:27:27.780
everybody. So what we try to do is let people unleash what they want to do and be an influence
00:27:32.340
with where they're at. So some of our guys that are entrepreneur business owners, hey, do it with
00:27:37.440
those guys. Some of the people that are stay-at-home mom, do it with your tribe. I mean, so
00:27:42.500
how we do it is relationally. I mean, that's for sure. But our people have learned that truth is
00:27:48.680
a great commodity in these discussions. Because I think for a long time, whether it was a seeker
00:27:53.440
movement or, hey, I'm just going to come alongside, we're going to become best friends. And once we
00:27:57.420
build enough trust, then I can share Christ with you. I feel like those days are over. Maybe it's
00:28:01.600
because of just how God's wired me, or maybe it's because we're living in the last days.
00:28:05.240
but I think people are hungry to know what is the truth
00:28:14.260
So one of the reasons that your podcast is so relatable,
00:28:24.020
with your husband, with your kids, with your family,
00:28:31.760
And so instead of coming up with myriads of programs,
00:28:36.760
We train people to live out their God-given call
00:28:40.200
and their mandate to fulfill the Great Commission
00:28:57.800
but I know that I've got my better than organic chicken.
00:29:03.960
I've got my bacon, all of these things to choose from in my freezer because I've got
00:29:08.840
Good Ranchers that shows up on my front door on dry ice every month, makes my life easier,
00:29:14.220
more protein filled, a lot tastier, and even more patriotic because all meat from Good
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Ranchers comes from American farms and ranches.
00:29:21.840
And we know that you don't just vote every two years or every four years, you vote every
00:29:27.020
And when you make the choice to support this family owned, Christian owned company that
00:29:31.220
then supports these American farms and ranches, you are sending a message that you are a part of
00:29:36.200
this parallel economy that honors American values and Christian values. I love Ben and Corley.
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They're the real deal. It's an awesome company with just really high quality products. Go to
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goodranchers.com. When you use code Allie, you'll get $25 off your first order. Goodranchers.com,
00:29:52.020
code Allie. How do you encourage those Christians? I'm sure there's a lot of them
00:30:00.760
in denver that they're working at a public school or they're working at a company that is completely
00:30:06.160
opposed to their values even wants to pressure them to use pronouns so lie about someone use
00:30:12.420
pronouns that don't correspond with their sex how do you help your congregants navigate truly
00:30:18.700
living out that truth and love dichotomy in such a dark space yeah i mean that's a that's a
00:30:24.160
challenging one because it's really easy to say truth in kind of a flippant way like who cares
00:30:30.540
You know, if you lose your job, you lose your job.
00:30:32.220
Well, if you lose your job, you don't have income to provide for your wife and for your
00:30:37.520
But what we always say is you never make the wrong decision by trusting God.
00:30:46.760
And it depends on where you believe, who you believe your resource is.
00:30:50.100
So if God is your resource, not your job, that gives you a ton of freedom to live for
00:30:55.260
God, knowing that God's going to provide for you.
00:31:00.460
And so we tell people, you can't be a born-again believer living out the mandates of the gospel
00:31:08.520
And so when you talk about the public school teacher, we have public school teachers that
00:31:12.300
We tell them, you are a light in a very dark place, and we love you, and we stand for you,
00:31:17.040
and we pray for you, and we're encouraging you.
00:31:19.660
And yeah, we understand it's difficult for you.
00:31:21.700
You can't stand up on a platform in the lunchroom and say, thus saith the Lord.
00:31:25.800
But if kids ask you questions, you know, we're praying that you would have those answers.
00:31:31.260
So I was a youth pastor in a couple of different cities.
00:31:33.540
So in Chicago, when I was a youth pastor in the Chicago area, you know, I was with my
00:31:37.240
students and they were introducing me to their friends.
00:31:39.960
It was almost like they were giving them a warning, like, hey, this is my youth pastor,
00:31:47.680
When I lived in Texas, I would get invited to kids' schools.
00:31:50.800
And when I would go in to have lunch with them, they would give me a badge.
00:31:53.540
And it was almost like, this is my youth pastor.
00:31:58.160
I remember when we first moved to Denver and, you know, we moved into our neighborhood and
00:32:02.340
I was talking to my neighbor and asking what you do and asking him.
00:32:05.700
And he asked me, he's like, what do you do for a living?
00:32:10.660
Had I said, we just moved here from another planet, the look on his face would have been
00:32:15.360
And he's like, like pastor, like, is that like a real, like, that's your job?
00:32:19.760
Like you get paid to do, I mean, that's Denver.
00:32:45.200
we would have a totally different set of governors,
00:32:50.460
But so many evangelicals that complain about how bad the world's going don't even vote.
00:32:55.860
I've talked to people from Colorado who say that, that actually a lot of their community
00:33:00.820
is just kind of instinctively conservative or at least libertarian.
00:33:05.040
They're really not on board with a lot of the tyranny that we see from left-wing Democrats.
00:33:10.360
But they're also, as you said, just kind of apathetic, individualistic, hedonistic.
00:33:19.080
We take advantage of the resources and we just kind of like don't want to bother anyone.
00:33:23.700
And the truth is, in order to be what politics would call conservative, but in order to be publicly biblical, there's just not a lot of social incentive for that.
00:33:42.300
and most people don't have a desire to go against the grain
00:33:59.580
So that's very insightful that you said earlier.
00:34:01.240
It's not really these hard and fast progressive activists.
00:34:06.520
It's a lot of individualistic self-centered people
00:34:11.200
Yeah, we're living in an era of passivity and cowardice, and that's what it is.
00:34:14.640
And so you know from your show, you know from what you do, if you're going to speak the
00:34:18.680
truth, there are going to be all sorts of threats and people that want to come after
00:34:25.340
And so it's fine, Allie, that you want to take that, but I don't want to take that.
00:34:29.640
We'll let Allie do her show because I agree with her.
00:34:32.560
And I think there's a lot of Christians in the background that agree with other Christians
00:34:37.640
but when they take that little step it could even be from their family like oh you're one of them
00:34:42.160
oh we don't want to talk to you anymore i mean all that stuff so i i earlier last year i got to
00:34:48.880
be in the oval office and pray over president trump and um the picture went out on a news feed
00:34:54.780
and i'm like my whole family's gonna see this so i gotta tell my family well my family's kind of
00:34:58.780
like split down the middle politically i knew it was going to cause division and so but i said hey
00:35:03.400
i was in the white house today i got to pray over president trump and i sent a picture and
00:35:07.260
immediately, you know, some people, oh, great. And then there was just silence. And then the
00:35:11.500
whole conversation shifted. But it's even like that, I think, for some people. So with family,
00:35:17.360
with friends, like, hey, you know what? I just want to go out to dinner and have fun.
00:35:21.500
I don't want to be known as the person that stands against that or does that. And it's the
00:35:24.860
same thing we tell young kids, you know, when they're going to say, hey, you don't need to go
00:35:27.840
out drinking with your friends. You don't need to be immoral. You don't need to just stand firm.
00:35:31.080
We're telling our kids to do that. Why don't we do that? And so I think the first time that you're
00:35:36.200
standing firm and people are attacking you for some biblical truth, it really hurts.
00:35:40.860
But then you start reading the word and it's like, rejoice and be glad. Your reward in heaven's
00:35:44.620
great. This is how they treat all the prophets. So if you're going to stand firm, I tell people
00:35:49.660
all the time, one plaque that I see nobody put up in their house is anyone who wants to live a
00:35:53.540
godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. And that's the fact. So I think there's a lot
00:35:58.260
of people that are on the sidelines cheering for people like you, cheering for pastors that preach
00:36:02.280
the truth, cheering for politicians that stand for what's right with biblical values, they just
00:36:06.640
don't want to identify with them because if they do, they're going to get grief too and they don't
00:36:10.440
want that. And it's time for all Christians everywhere to stand.
00:36:19.500
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00:37:38.020
I can't remember the specific legislation in Colorado. You might know. It was a couple years
00:37:44.420
ago, but there was some initiative that was pro-abortion, basically allowing abortion
00:37:50.960
through all nine months. Colorado is a very radically pro-abortion state in every stage
00:37:57.260
of development. They want to be the most pro-abortion state if we're not already.
00:38:01.100
Like a safe haven for abortion. But at the same time, there was another initiative that was to
00:38:07.460
protect some species of like wolf in Colorado. And I just thought it was an interesting and very
00:38:14.520
sad and dark juxtaposition that you will protect this endangered species of animal in Colorado,
00:38:21.600
but this human being who can feel pain, this image bearer of God, we can snuff out their life
00:38:27.580
through poison and dismemberment, decapitation through all nine months of pregnancy. And you've
00:38:36.900
got people who are at worst supportive of it, but then also just apathetic toward it.
00:38:43.200
Well, you were asking, hey, what do you do in your city?
00:38:45.560
Some of our cadres have been resistance cadres.
00:38:48.300
So some of our cadres have gone to abortion clinics and stood in front of them.
00:38:51.480
One actually shut down because of the work that we were doing.
00:38:58.480
She decided to have her baby and send us a picture.
00:39:00.480
We paid for her flight back home to Texas because she had flown in from Texas.
00:39:04.160
So there are stories of good things that the Lord is doing, but we tell our people all
00:39:15.360
So how do we as believers love people and stand for truth and call people out?
00:39:22.840
So we had a group of our men probably two years ago.
00:39:26.540
There was a drag queen story hour at a festival, and they went and they just stood up and basically said, we're for children.
00:39:34.740
And they turned their backs to the stage and just didn't protest, didn't do anything else, didn't say anything.
00:39:39.320
and it made the news that Brave Church is this radical, hateful, all this kind of stuff.
00:39:44.940
A couple of our guys ended up getting arrested.
00:39:50.100
And there were people that even left our church.
00:39:51.440
Like, if we're going to be that kind of person, you know, nobody's going to come to our alpha
00:39:56.960
If we don't stand for what's true in our culture, all we're doing is sitting over here on the
00:40:04.560
And it reminds me of, you know, when I hear Eric Metaxas talk and my grandfather, who
00:40:09.920
was Jewish, who survived the Holocaust, you know, where Christian churches were gathered
00:40:13.520
in Germany singing hymns while trains were taking people to the concentration camps and
00:40:20.680
And so when we see things in our culture that are flat out wrong and we don't say anything,
00:40:24.780
then we're complicit with evil and we can't be that.
00:40:28.280
What is your encouragement to a pastor who's maybe listening to this?
00:40:32.260
Maybe they live in a liberal city, but maybe they don't.
00:40:35.160
And they've realized, okay, I think I've maybe missed it.
00:40:38.300
And they just feel that conviction from the Holy Spirit to be more clear.
00:40:45.860
I think a majority of pastors really want to do a good job.
00:40:48.500
I think a majority of pastors really love their flock.
00:40:52.220
Sometimes it's from their elders and sometimes it's from people in the congregation that
00:40:55.500
have been longstanding members or big tithers and givers.
00:41:20.820
because I know I give an account for every word I say.
00:41:29.160
And as Christians, we've lost the fear of the Lord.
00:41:31.600
We're like, well, I'm a Christian, so I can sin and God will forgive me.
00:41:34.120
And yes, God will forgive you, but that's not the fear of the Lord.
00:41:37.240
The fear of the Lord is why would I want to sin?
00:41:40.360
And so to all the pastors out there, I would say, you know, you're calling, you know why
00:41:44.200
God called you, open the word of God, preach it, teach your people to pray and watch what
00:41:50.300
Can I ask you, what is the hardest part about being a pastor?
00:41:56.540
what is the biggest thing that you hope people pray for you
00:42:01.940
I think the weight, the weight of what it means to be a pastor.
00:42:06.960
So if you have, I mean, we've been every church size.
00:42:19.800
So my wife can tell you every Saturday at our house,
00:42:27.100
I wake up on Monday morning and I'm defeated, discouraged, whatever.
00:42:30.860
And I've learned over the years to rest in my identity and all that stuff.
00:42:34.540
So I don't feel like quitting every Monday or anything like that.
00:42:36.840
But I think the way people can pray for me is that I would be faith.
00:42:39.540
I ask people this all the time because people will say stuff like this and they mean well.
00:42:43.600
Like, hey, we're just praying that you stay humble.
00:42:46.240
You know, I hope you stay humble, to which I always want to say, I hope you stay humble
00:42:50.260
But I think what they're saying is we've seen pastors fall and we have.
00:42:56.480
And I think what they're saying is we don't want to see that, you know?
00:42:59.600
And so what I tell people all the time, the best way you can pray for me is to pray that
00:43:03.040
my relationship with Jesus stays strong, that I'm spending time with Jesus, that I'm letting
00:43:08.060
him change me and that you can ask me, hey, what are you hearing from God lately?
00:43:13.360
So that if I have a close relationship with Jesus, all the other things take care of themselves.
00:43:17.860
Because I think one of the dangers in being a pastor is, well, I'm doing ministry.
00:43:28.580
And the most important thing you can do is prayer and the ministry of the word.
00:43:31.520
So staying close to God in prayer, staying close to God in the word and letting him continue
00:43:36.260
So if anybody prays anything for me, it's a pray that Pastor Jeff stays really, really
00:43:41.740
close to Jesus so that Jesus can tell him what he needs to do.
00:43:44.540
because there's nobody that can change us like Jesus, right?
00:43:48.240
And so I think that's the prayer for all people, honestly,
00:43:50.820
but especially for pastors is pray that their walk with Jesus is so close
00:43:57.260
They can hear what Jesus is saying through his word
00:43:59.260
and through conversations where they know how to walk in obedience
00:44:05.360
Pastors and all Christians can feel really demoralized,
00:44:09.300
especially living in a particularly godless place.
00:44:14.340
What are some ways, even small ways, that you have seen light triumph over darkness
00:44:20.160
through your church, through God's Word, and the community where you live?
00:44:26.560
And so, you know, I think it was 2021 or 2022, I think it was 2021, that we decided,
00:44:35.600
And so we rented a place at Bandamere Speedway, which was in Colorado at the time.
00:44:41.000
And, you know, we opened our doors, had 10,000 people.
00:44:48.640
And what I would say is when we first moved to Denver
00:44:51.580
and somebody like Chris Tomlin would come to town
00:44:57.100
I would say Peoria, Illinois has more Christians than this.
00:45:05.700
I've watched the spiritual temperature of Christians rise
00:45:09.540
I've seen more people becoming more sold out to Jesus
00:45:14.280
And much like Elijah, when he was complaining to the Lord,
00:45:18.140
like, I'm the only one, everybody else has bowed.
00:45:34.220
Don't go where it's comfortable, stay in the fight.
00:45:39.320
I think there are people that are feeling called by God
00:45:42.880
My friend, Victor Marks, is running for governor in the state of Colorado, is a born-again,
00:45:47.820
spirit-filled man that only wants to run to be top cover for the state so a lot of these
00:45:56.300
I see light coming through, and I see more and more people being unapologetic for their
00:46:08.240
Last sponsor for the day is Concerned Women for America.
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I got to meet your daughter when I was in Denver just a few weeks ago speaking to your
00:47:31.680
Can you give some encouragements to parents who are like, you know what?
00:47:35.960
I love my kids, but I'm looking at this future generation and I'm worried.
00:47:46.120
Yeah, my wife and I talk about this all the time.
00:47:47.980
We were marriage experts before we got married and we were parent experts before we had kids.
00:47:52.100
What we've learned is that prayer is primary for both.
00:47:55.360
And I don't just throw that out there and say, oh, just pray.
00:48:00.880
Pray intentionally for their gifts and then speak words of life over them.
00:48:20.220
And so as your kids learn to hear the voice of the Lord
00:48:28.900
So any good things that have come out of our kids,
00:48:32.840
it's really not us. I'm not going to write a parenting book on here's the five steps to have
00:48:37.400
a great kid because I don't even know what those are other than be present, love them, encourage
00:48:43.920
them, pray for them, believe God's best for them and tell them they're a difference maker. They're
00:48:48.320
to be salt and light in a world. So when you see these evils and when you see these things,
00:48:52.820
hey, that's why God created you because you're going to make a difference. And darkness doesn't
00:48:56.820
overcome light, light always overcomes darkness. What good things do you see in Gen Z and even,
00:49:03.680
I think it's Gen Alpha after that, that give you hope that, okay, God's doing something.
00:49:09.720
Yeah. So I started off as a youth pastor. And here about a year ago, I said, I'm getting back
00:49:14.780
involved with our students because I still feel like I have an anointing with high school students.
00:49:18.120
And so what I'm seeing with students is they have a passion and they're very missional. I don't see
00:49:24.880
kids growing up saying, what's my job going to be and how much money am I going to make and all this
00:49:27.860
stuff, they tend to be asking the question, how can my life make a difference? And I love that.
00:49:33.380
And what we're seeing in Gen Z, you're seeing more young people go back to church, especially
00:49:36.600
young men going back to church, wanting to be part of a life-giving church that preaches the
00:49:42.560
word where truth is known. So I see incredible hope. I mean, we're seeing glimpses of revival.
00:49:48.600
We're seeing stories of, even colleges, like a year ago, the whole Ohio State Buckeye team was
00:49:54.500
having revivals on the campus. And I was able to, I did chapel for the New England Patriots two
00:49:59.200
weeks ago, which is why Denver was blaming me for the loss. But got to meet a couple of those guys
00:50:05.080
that had been part of that team. I mean, there's a genuine love for the Lord in that generation,
00:50:09.660
and I'm seeing it change. And so I want to be a part of that too. We talk about passing the
00:50:14.880
baton all the time. I'm 55 now. It's like, I'm not getting any younger. So the more we can raise up
00:50:20.300
that generation, because there's a lot of leaders that want to make a difference. And the questions
00:50:34.460
So I'm super excited about the next generation.
00:50:37.480
Can you give us just one last bit of encouragement
00:50:43.500
Mostly women and moms who are listening to this,
00:50:52.680
For a lot of different reasons, they might need some shepherding of their hearts right now and
00:50:58.560
just a little bit of edification from a pastor. Absolutely. Well, I love moms and young women.
00:51:04.980
I love my wife and I've watched all that she's done over the years to love kids. And I think
00:51:10.200
moms just have a different relationship with their kids than dads do. They just do. And my
00:51:15.360
encouragement would be it's easy. I think it's easy for women to listen to all the noise that's
00:51:20.460
out there. And it's pretty easy to get a lot of news really quickly and then ruminate on how bad,
00:51:26.700
look at how bad this is. Look at how bad this is. It wasn't like this 20 years ago. It wasn't like
00:51:30.960
this when I was a kid. Wow, it's going from bad to worse. Here's what I would say. Jesus Christ
00:51:35.440
is still Lord over all. He's still on the throne. Spend more time seeking his face. Because what I
00:51:40.640
find is even when I start ruminating on those things and saying, oh my goodness, look at us.
00:51:44.620
This is so bad. We can't turn back. When I spend time at the foot of Jesus, I hear him say,
00:51:49.820
I'm still in control. This is nothing's, nothing's spinning. I'm not nervous. I'm not biting my
00:51:54.420
fingernails. You don't need to be nervous either. Just be my voice piece. And guess what? I'm coming
00:51:58.780
back to make this right. Until I do, I'll empower you to make a difference. So keep making a
00:52:03.600
difference. So moms, wives, you're making a huge difference in the life and community of your kids
00:52:09.760
and your husband. And if you're working outside the home, that's great. So continue just to trust
00:52:14.340
the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Amen. And if someone's in the Denver
00:52:18.440
area, and they're like, hey, I'm looking for a church. Where can they find more information?
00:52:22.740
Yeah, go to brave.org. Brave.org. Very easy to remember. That's our website. Maybe you want to
00:52:28.800
wait two weeks so that you can see the updated website. But at the end of the day, yeah, go there.
00:52:33.280
We'd love to have you visit if you're out in the Denver area.