Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1344 ｜ Mexican Cartels’ New Target： Evangelical Christians. Here’s What’s Happening ｜ Ryan Brown

00:00:00.000 A lot of people think of Mexico as a popular vacation spot. They don't think about it as a hub of persecution of Christianity. And yet, evangelical Christians are being persecuted on a daily basis in Mexico. Yet, the church there is growing. That is the same story in violent countries like Yemen, like Syria, in North Korea, all throughout Africa. Despite intense persecution, the church of Jesus is growing.

00:00:28.000 Today, we've got the CEO of Open Doors, Ryan Brown here.

00:00:32.020 Open Doors is an organization that resources the persecuted church all around the world,

00:00:36.600 and he's going to tell us what is really going on in Mexico, in these other countries.

00:00:40.880 How can we be involved in helping these Christians?

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00:01:12.420 Ryan, thanks so much for joining us.

00:01:14.720 Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

00:01:16.940 Yeah, my name is Ryan Brown, and I have the privilege of overseeing the team with Open Doors US.

00:01:22.400 And for those not familiar with Open Doors, we are a ministry that has its roots dating back 70 years, a gentleman by the name of Brother Andrew, who some of the viewers may be familiar with because it was a book written a number of years ago called God Smuggler, which over 10 million copies of that book in print.

00:01:40.360 But Brother Andrew was a young man from the Netherlands, and he and his friends at Bible

00:01:48.820 College were just perplexed why they couldn't get people to show up to their meetings.

00:01:54.960 And meanwhile, in Poland, there was going to be a communist youth rally in which there

00:01:58.840 were going to be tens of thousands of young people there.

00:02:01.340 So he traveled there to find out why, what was the attraction.

00:02:05.740 And during his time there, he went off the itinerary a little bit and met members of

00:02:11.040 the church there.

00:02:12.660 And his heart was broken to discover that they did not have access to the word of God.

00:02:17.160 These were entire congregations of believers where maybe only one person would have access

00:02:22.640 to the scriptures or just part of scriptures.

00:02:24.260 And so he felt compelled that he needed to respond. 0.75

00:02:27.980 And so he began smuggling Bibles into communist countries behind what was referred to as the 0.91

00:02:33.260 Iron Curtain at that point.

00:02:35.200 And I gave birth to a ministry that we're now working in about 80 countries around the globe where Christians are most persecuted and discriminated against because of their faith in Jesus.

00:02:43.780 And does he note why people weren't going to his meetings, but the young people were showing up at these communist rallies?

00:02:52.980 What did he learn?

00:02:54.040 I don't know that he actually came to a conclusion on that.

00:02:57.240 He did come to a conclusion, though, that the church there in Poland, what we commonly refer to as the persecuted church, that they had something to offer.

00:03:08.920 Because Jesus talks about a pearl of great price, about people willing to sacrifice for their faith.

00:03:16.300 And what he was experiencing, there was not a lot of sacrifice associated with that.

00:03:21.720 But yet he saw men and women around the globe who are willing at great cost to follow Jesus Christ.

00:03:28.940 And so, you know, there are elements there that, you know, that which costs us little sometimes means little.

00:03:35.780 And so, you know, he was inviting people into kinship, into relationship with persecuted believers as a way to even, you know, energize and to spark revival in the European context that he was working in.

00:03:51.260 And what does Open Doors do today?

00:03:53.620 Yeah, so again, coming alongside the persecuted church, and I think the thing that is maybe

00:03:59.140 a little non-intuitive about that is that I think that many of us, when we think of

00:04:04.940 the idea of persecution, the immediate response is, well, the goal should be to end persecution,

00:04:10.120 to stop persecution.

00:04:11.220 The goal should be to pull people out of persecution that are experiencing that.

00:04:16.540 But that's not necessarily how the Bible frames persecution.

00:04:19.980 You know, the Bible tells us the persecution will come and is when we come alongside our brothers and sisters that are experiencing persecution, they're not necessarily asking that we take their persecution away.

00:04:30.860 They're not asking that they be removed.

00:04:32.460 What they are asking is that we not forget them in their persecution, that we stand with them, that they not stand alone.

00:04:40.080 They ask that we pray for them.

00:04:41.980 They ask that we continue to resource them and support them so that they can stay rooted

00:04:46.980 as a church in these areas that are so opposed to the message of the gospel, that they can

00:04:52.820 continue to be a light in those areas that are most opposed to the message of the gospel.

00:04:59.380 And so what kind of resources is Open Doors providing?

00:05:02.040 Yeah.

00:05:02.400 So it can look different because persecution looks different in different contexts.

00:05:06.100 So in some places, we tend to generally categorize persecution in two different ways.

00:05:12.440 One is this idea of a smash of persecution.

00:05:16.380 Those are the things that I think a lot of us more intuitively gravitate towards when we think of persecution.

00:05:22.100 These are things like people that are murdered or martyred for their faith.

00:05:25.420 Like what's happening in Nigeria. 0.76

00:05:26.880 Exactly.

00:05:28.320 This is church buildings being attacked or bombed or destroyed.

00:05:32.300 But there's also a very real dynamic that we refer to more as a squeeze of persecution.

00:05:37.940 And this is a reality when people are denied access to education for their children.

00:05:46.420 They are denied access to employment.

00:05:49.680 It's a reality where life is made untenable for Christians in particular areas because of their faith.

00:05:59.220 And what happens if Christians leave those areas, the church is decimated.

00:06:03.960 So it can have the same impact, you know, whether it's, you know, through fear or intimidation

00:06:08.480 seeking to break the back of the church or whether it's through these pressures that

00:06:12.460 make life difficult, both of those things can cause the church to come under threat

00:06:16.160 in different areas.

00:06:17.940 And so the way that Open Door seeks to respond is that the way that the church is asking

00:06:22.960 for support in those particular areas, in, you know, areas where there is the smash of

00:06:27.940 persecution. A lot of that can look like traditional, honestly, relief type aid, where

00:06:33.280 Christians are needing access to food, shelters. Many are living as internally displaced people,

00:06:38.780 like you mentioned, in Nigeria. Another big piece is trauma counseling. There are Christians who

00:06:45.040 have experienced atrocities that I think you and I would have a difficult time even trying to fathom

00:06:50.480 or wrap our mind around. And men, women, and children have been through these things. And so

00:06:56.240 we're able to provide counseling that, you know, rooted in the gospel, but yet also allows people

00:07:01.240 to go deep in, you know, processing through these things they've experienced. In other areas where

00:07:06.520 it's more the squeeze of persecution, you know, where Christians have been denied access to

00:07:11.740 employment, we're able to offer livelihood programs where Christians can find new vocations

00:07:17.220 and means to provide for their families. In places where children have been denied access to school,

00:07:22.920 often able to provide educational opportunities

00:07:25.860 or advocate on behalf of those children

00:07:27.680 so that they can get the education

00:07:29.240 that they're entitled to.

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00:09:00.720 Do you have a story of someone recently so people can kind of like wrap their mind around?

00:09:06.720 Maybe let's do one story of the squeeze of persecution, which you're right.

00:09:10.980 I don't think most people are even thinking about that, especially outside of the United States.

00:09:15.480 and then the smash of persecution that Open Doors has had the opportunity to reach and help maybe

00:09:22.000 get educational opportunities. So we'll start with someone who maybe was in a country where

00:09:27.900 they're not getting murdered, but they're getting persecuted through exclusion or discrimination.

00:09:32.680 Yeah, I think one of those fairly close to home here, even in Mexico, you know, I live in Arizona

00:09:38.680 and, you know, Mexico, obviously very, very close and, you know, church youth groups, you know,

00:09:43.880 constantly sending trips to Mexico and those types of things, but yet that the realities

00:09:49.060 of persecution aren't necessarily ones that are routinely talked about, but there are

00:09:53.960 very, very real dynamics.

00:09:55.420 And so, especially in some of the Southern areas, there's a gentleman, Pastor Umberto

00:10:02.980 that down in these Southern areas that he came to faith as an adult.

00:10:09.280 And, you know, this is a community, you know, I think when people hear Mexico, it can be somewhat confusing because we think of it as a predominantly Christian country, a Catholic country.

00:10:21.220 Yet, in many of these areas, the flavor of Catholicism isn't Catholicism as yours, I might know it.

00:10:29.720 There's a lot of kind of witchcraft, correct? 0.66

00:10:32.140 Exactly. A lot of, you know, syncretism as far as taking, you know, ancient, in many cases, Mayan beliefs and honestly just kind of sprinkling some Catholicism on top of it.

00:10:44.060 And so when he came to faith as an adult, his community, they didn't want that. They rejected that.

00:10:52.960 He was, you know, the immediate reaction was they cut off his electricity and they cut off water to his house.

00:11:00.840 He continued in his faith, and a few other families came to faith as well.

00:11:06.460 His children were told that they couldn't attend the local school.

00:11:11.800 He was eventually thrown into prison on two different occasions as he continued to share his faith.

00:11:17.960 But what is so amazing to see is that this pastor, coming to faith as an adult,

00:11:28.400 You know, he was, he had lived some rough years and, you know, he said his initial response when he received persecution was, you know, if you're coming swinging at me, I'm going to come back swinging at you.

00:11:39.780 And, you know, he could have pulled it off.

00:11:42.000 You know, he was a tough, tough guy.

00:11:44.680 But as he began to dive into some of the training and we have curriculum that we walk people through as far as, you know, persecution preparedness and began recognizing the teaching of Jesus that you'll love your enemies.

00:11:58.120 pray for those who persecute you. He began to realize that his natural response that he needed

00:12:04.180 to keep that in check with his new biblical worldview. And so he began to respond in love,

00:12:09.700 trying to reach out to his neighbors. And as the community was continuing to try to amp up,

00:12:15.040 ramp up what they were going to do to try to drive him back to his ancestral faith,

00:12:22.060 there was a meeting of the community one night. He was on the outside looking in and a gentleman

00:12:27.460 and raised his hand and said, you know, that Pastor Humberto and, you know, these several

00:12:32.020 others that have come to faith, he said that they're not going to come back. They're not

00:12:36.420 going to abandon their newfound faith, but you know what? They're good neighbors. So let's just

00:12:40.740 leave them alone. Let's just let them be. And so the community decided to do that. And what happened

00:12:45.980 is over a period of time is more and more people began to see, you know, how they were living their

00:12:51.240 lives in this community. More and more of these people that had been persecutors began coming to

00:12:56.260 faith in Christ. More and more until the point where it became the majority of the community

00:13:02.600 was Christian. Now this community, I was down there for, one of the ways that this church has

00:13:10.280 funded a lot of the work that they are doing is through a bakery. And they're not just working

00:13:16.460 in their own community, but they are actually, they've planted churches in 11 surrounding

00:13:21.740 communities that are also antagonistic towards the Christian faith. And so, we were able to

00:13:28.000 partner with them, and they've actually launched a commercial-grade bakery now that they're

00:13:31.940 utilizing to fund this work that they're doing. But it's amazing to see as men and women respond

00:13:40.440 that even with that squeeze of persecution, that they can continue to be a light in the dark.

00:13:46.420 Now, you asked about the smash of persecution and what that looks like.

00:13:52.840 Yeah. If I could just, if I could say one thing for, you know, my audience here, obviously here in America, we are so incredibly blessed by a constitution and constitutional rights, but we are always, you know, needing attorneys to fight on behalf of Christians like, you know, Jack Phillips and Colorado, so many other Christians, First Liberty, Alliance Defending Freedom.

00:14:13.260 They're all people who are trying to defend these freedoms.

00:14:16.120 And even though it's not quite the same as somewhere like Mexico or other of these squeeze countries, I do want to encourage my audience, yes, of course, to think about the persecuted Christians abroad, but also to realize we have a concept on the show called sharing the arrows.

00:14:34.420 that when you see a fellow Christian who is being condemned, lambasted, excluded for their faith,

00:14:40.320 rather than us saying, okay, I'm so glad that's not me. And now I know not to speak out. Now I

00:14:47.360 know not to do that. You stand up and you say, you know what? I also believe that. I believe

00:14:52.500 the same thing. So whatever arrows you're launching toward me, or whatever arrows you're

00:14:57.560 launching toward her, you can launch toward me too. And we encourage prayer, support,

00:15:01.900 helping that person's business, and it sounds a lot like on a much smaller and different scale

00:15:06.560 in an Americanized way, some of what you're doing. You're not necessarily going down there and,

00:15:12.140 as you said, trying to end all persecution. You are sharing the arrows. You're going down there

00:15:16.560 and you're saying, you're not alone. And let us give you what you need to persist,

00:15:21.560 what you need to stand up. You're not necessarily always removing them from the situation.

00:15:26.020 And it sounds like through that, God has given the space that is needed for others to see the

00:15:33.180 light of Christ and to become Christian. That is a really unique and different perspective that I

00:15:39.120 feel like we don't hear about a lot, but I just wanted to give some more American context for my

00:15:44.640 listeners that we do a very small form of that, and it sounds like what y'all are doing on a

00:15:50.000 bigger and more tangible scale. Absolutely. Well, I think in that American context,

00:15:54.160 I think in many cases as we've engaged in the conversation of persecution, it's whether that be at a macro scale like in Nigeria or even in a smaller case like we might experience here, there can often be a fear associated with that and this idea that, okay, we need to avoid that.

00:16:12.560 But what I've heard from so many of our brothers and sisters around the globe is that Christ is present in their persecution.

00:16:21.920 You know, they are not alone. Christ is with them. And, you know, His Holy Spirit strengthens them in the midst of those things. And so, you know, I was humbled by a gentleman I met from Sudan a little over a year ago.

00:16:38.640 And, you know, this was Sudan, for those not familiar, a country that's just been ripped apart by civil war.

00:16:46.700 This is a country, you know, where Christians can very much experience the smash of persecution as well.

00:16:53.300 You know, they not only are navigating, you know, the incredible humanitarian crisis that's going on because of multiple years of civil war.

00:17:03.720 But there is also an antagonism towards specifically for those of a Muslim background faith that have come to faith in Christ, where people will be ostracized by their communities, by their families.

00:17:19.060 And that was the story of this gentleman that I had the opportunity to meet.

00:17:22.680 He had come to faith as an adult as well and was immediately cut off by his family, was ostracized by his community as he began to share his newfound faith with his community.

00:17:33.460 he was thrown into prison and as he was describing that prison experience to me he said that you know

00:17:39.120 at times they kept him in a cell that was so small he didn't even have enough room to lay down at

00:17:44.480 night you know to sleep he said other times they kept him in a cell that was completely devoid of

00:17:50.120 any light not just natural sunlight but as well any type of light bulb or artificial light was

00:17:55.600 complete and utter darkness as they just sought to break his back and you know I had been studying

00:18:02.540 the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus says, blessed are the persecuted. And my definition of blessed

00:18:12.140 isn't necessarily, that didn't really align the experiences that he was describing as being

00:18:17.760 blessed. And so, I asked him about that and he said that, I wouldn't have chosen these experiences,

00:18:24.920 but he said, I am thankful for them. He said, I'm thankful because when I was in the darkness of

00:18:31.040 that cell, the light of Christ was burning for me brighter in ways than I had ever experienced

00:18:36.120 before.

00:18:36.620 When I was in that cramped, confined, I knew that Christ was there with me.

00:18:40.500 He said, in terms of my faith, he said, I went into prison as a kitten, but I came out

00:18:45.200 as a lion.

00:18:47.020 And again, the presence of Christ is not devoid.

00:18:50.420 So whether it's the pressure that we feel from a coworker or things like that that might 0.90

00:18:57.080 ridicule our faith, or whether it's a Christian in Nigeria that is rightfully fearful for their

00:19:03.400 life, Christ isn't absent. He is present.

00:19:11.140 Next sponsor is a very fitting sponsor, and that is Voice of the Martyrs. Voice of the Martyrs

00:19:16.480 also exists to help the persecuted church, and they have a resource that you can get right now

00:19:23.220 If you go to vom.org slash Allie, they've got all kinds of books like Hearts on Fire,

00:19:30.400 all kinds of resources for you to be able to connect with the stories of Christians around

00:19:35.880 the world who are being persecuted, who are risking everything for their faith.

00:19:40.660 If you want to know more about Voice of the Martyrs, how to get involved, very similar

00:19:45.120 origin story.

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00:20:08.960 Tell us about Syria, because I noticed on your—you have a world watch list, Open Doors does,

00:20:14.260 And these are countries where persecution is very heavy and Syria has gone up in its slots.

00:20:20.780 So why is that?

00:20:21.880 Yeah, it was one of the largest single year jumps that we had seen and certainly in recent history with that report.

00:20:29.840 It had been number 18 last year and jumped up to number six.

00:20:35.100 And to unpack that, some may be familiar was the Assad regime had been in power for roughly 50 years or so.

00:20:44.260 And, you know, it was not easy for Christians in those areas.

00:20:48.720 There were certain parts of the country where, you know, Christians, you know, were relatively left alone or things along those lines.

00:20:56.220 There was, you know, certainly for those who had been converted, you know, from a Muslim background, there were hostilities and there were difficulties.

00:21:04.720 But what happened as the Assad regime was taken out of power in HTS, which is a group that has ties to al-Qaeda and the history there, as they step forward, they have been very, very vocal in proclaiming their intention for religious freedom and liberties and for people to worship according to conscience.

00:21:30.960 But in the midst of this regime change, the rule of law was virtually non-existent in some places.

00:21:41.260 And yeah, it was very, very difficult.

00:21:43.720 And the extremists have definitely seen that as an opportunity to step into the void there.

00:21:48.600 And so while some of these historical things have continued to be present, what was the dramatic changer for Syria this last year were the incidences of violence.

00:21:59.660 and how that persecution, if we go back a year ago on the World Watch List, no Christians had

00:22:06.200 lost their life that we had record of in Syria that year. This year, there were 27 that were

00:22:16.240 killed because of their faith. 22 of those were killed in a specific church bombing that was just

00:22:21.620 an absolute horrific event. When you take a look at the number of churches that had been

00:22:27.640 destroyed or vandalized or damaged. In our previous reporting period, we had recorded

00:22:33.860 four that we could substantiate and verify through our on-the-ground presence. This last year,

00:22:40.020 there were over 100 of those. And so, while all of these realities that made life difficult and

00:22:45.800 where Christians were experiencing persecution continue to be present, we amped on top of that,

00:22:53.340 through on top of that, unfortunately, an increase in violence. There is the actual risk that comes

00:22:59.140 with violence itself, but that violence has a psychological impact as well on the church where

00:23:07.660 people that had lived relatively and safely and suddenly where that relative safety is no longer

00:23:15.380 there. It's taken away. That has a huge impact. As a result, we've seen that church in Syria

00:23:23.040 Over the recent years, it has gone from hundreds of thousands have left.

00:23:28.560 This last year, we estimate there's about 300,000 Christians left remaining in Syria.

00:23:35.980 So it has become a remnant, a small church that remains, that has been profoundly impacted by these changes in the regime.

00:23:45.700 And I don't know if you can answer this, because I know that the work that is being done by those who work for Open Doors can be very dangerous. And so you have to have, you know, some privacy in that. But is there anything you can tell us just about how you get into these countries? I imagine it is very difficult. There's a lot of peril that you have to overcome. Or is it just communication with the Christians already in Syria? What does that look like?

00:24:14.740 Yeah, so it's a great question because we are not a traditional missionary sending organization.

00:24:21.800 You know, if people go to our website, they're not going to sign up for the two-week trip to, you know, go visit these places.

00:24:28.960 You know, we have a rich history and a rich legacy of relationships.

00:24:33.440 We talk about presence ministry on the ground.

00:24:36.140 And so, you know, Brother Andrew, you know, our founder lived that out that, you know, he sought to be present with folks.

00:24:44.000 And so we come alongside the church that is there with Christians that are there seeking to support them.

00:24:50.080 These are men and women that love their countries despite the intense persecution that they experience.

00:24:56.740 But these are men and women that are committed and believe that there is a future and that there can be a hope in some of these places that are so opposed to their faith.

00:25:09.340 So when we come alongside, it is, you know, coming alongside those deep relationships that have been forged over years, those aren't easy to create.

00:25:21.800 Those take time.

00:25:23.820 You know, many times those with nefarious intent will, you know, position themselves as like a new convert to faith to find out who is who and where people are meeting and those types of things.

00:25:35.660 So there are many of these places where we have to exercise extreme caution and extreme care, but it is all birthed out of that fabric and that foundation of relationship and trust that gets built over time.

00:25:49.760 And it's a similar story in Yemen.

00:25:51.600 I think that they're number three on the list.

00:25:54.160 Tell us what's going on there.

00:25:55.500 I know that y'all are kind of launching a campaign to shine a light on what Christians are enduring in these two countries.

00:26:00.840 Yeah, so it's really throughout sub-Saharan Africa that the campaign that we're focused on.

00:26:05.540 But Yemen in particular is a country that, you know, unfortunately has been in those top spots in the world watch list for many years.

00:26:14.220 This is a country where there has been, you know, civil war and great instability.

00:26:20.100 You know, you can only have so many years of that before it starts to create humanitarian crisis.

00:26:25.800 And Yemen is in the throes of that right now, that there are, you know, it's a dire humanitarian crisis, what's going on in Yemen.

00:26:37.940 The Christians in those contexts, there's an additional vulnerability.

00:26:43.760 You know, obviously, they experience the same hardships that all experience because of the, you know, the violence of civil war, because of the lack of food, the lack of water, lack of health care.

00:26:55.800 They experience all of those types of things, but in this area where Christianity, in this

00:27:03.220 case, I'm talking specifically evangelical Christianity, is not, in essence, kind of

00:27:07.800 an authorized religion.

00:27:08.860 It's not a religion that's allowed for people to worship according to their conscience in

00:27:16.620 those areas.

00:27:18.040 These individuals are typically last in line when it comes to receiving aid, when it comes

00:27:23.940 to receiving support.

00:27:25.800 you know, that the powers that be that are, you know, struggling for power, you know,

00:27:30.300 they don't gain favor with the populace by, you know, coming to the aid of Christians.

00:27:34.520 And so, you know, Christians have an incredible vulnerability that all of those in Yemen are

00:27:40.480 experiencing. But you add up the faith component on top of that, and it's a difficult, difficult

00:27:47.440 situation for the Christians in Yemen. And so, you know, multiple years where this has been

00:27:52.800 compounding. And, you know, the Christians in Yemen, it is a remnant that continues to persist 1.00

00:28:01.860 there. We have a gentleman in so many of these places, you're absolutely right that, you know,

00:28:08.240 because of security, you know, there are times where, you know, I'm telling a story where I can't

00:28:12.300 even identify the name of the country, let alone the individual, you know, for fear of exposing

00:28:19.440 them to greater risk. But we do have a gentleman in Yemen that specifically stood up this last year

00:28:27.260 and said, no, I want the world to see my face. I want the world to know my name. I'm a gentleman

00:28:32.100 by the name of Awis. And he has spoken and recorded videos that we've been able to share

00:28:39.500 with the rest of the world. But what we see happening right now in Yemen, what we see

00:28:44.100 happening in Nigeria, what we see happening in Sudan, these things are happening throughout

00:28:51.280 sub-Saharan Africa. And what we've seen over multiple years is that, again, that there can

00:28:59.200 be a squeeze and a smash of persecution in so many of these places, but that the smash has just

00:29:05.520 grown exponentially. The levels of violence that are being experienced continues to mount.

00:29:12.580 And why is that? Do we know?

00:29:15.680 You know, as far as, I mean, ultimately, you know, when you go to the Bible, it is sin that, you know, I think there is also a dynamic at play here that, you know, the enemy doesn't oppose that which is no threat. 0.69

00:29:35.600 you know we could end Christian persecution tomorrow if we just said let's lay down this 0.68

00:29:41.580 this great commission thing to go into all the world and make disciples we're not going to do 0.71

00:29:45.360 that we're opting out if the church were to take that posture you know it Christian persecution

00:29:53.160 would end but the fact that the church is not doing that the fact that church is advancing

00:29:58.140 there are many missiologists and many around the world that say that you know in coming years

00:30:05.080 There will be, you know, the greatest number of Christians in the world will be in Africa.

00:30:09.200 The church is advancing in Africa.

00:30:11.340 The church is growing.

00:30:13.420 Is it mostly, I'm just curious, is it mostly evangelical Christianity, Catholicism, Orthodox?

00:30:19.260 Yeah, so there are all of those threads come into play, but, you know, there's great growth in the evangelical church.

00:30:27.960 There are also growth, though, in some of these other areas as well.

00:30:30.920 It can be very, very localized as far as where some of that growth is.

00:30:34.760 And there are areas where the Orthodox Church is continuing to be a strong and viable presence there.

00:30:41.580 But many would say that the center of Christianity in coming years will be Africa rather than North America,

00:30:51.320 where it historic over recent years has been or Europe prior to that.

00:30:56.280 that the face and the heart of the global church is increasingly in Africa.

00:31:05.060 And I don't think that's coincidental as far as why Africa is seeing so much persecution.

00:31:13.060 Much of that persecution in this area has taken the form of Islamic extremism.

00:31:19.780 And so, again, these aren't necessarily moderate Muslims. 0.62

00:31:23.060 These are the extremists that are seeking to wipe out Christianity, that the growth of Christianity that's seen as a threat, seeking to see those extremist ideologies become a caliphate type state where that becomes the way of life for all in the land. 0.76

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00:33:04.160 Alley. What is the most dangerous country to be a Christian? Yeah, so the country that we have 0.77

00:33:16.700 placed on the top of our world watch list, and this, you know, we've been publishing this data

00:33:21.260 for about 30 years now, you know, and the country that has been on the top the majority of those

00:33:28.600 years has been North Korea. And, you know, this is a country for, you know, those not familiar 0.93

00:33:36.480 with the realities there that, you know, you and your entire family, if you're even found to be

00:33:42.600 in possession of a Bible, you and your entire family are likely going to be thrown into a

00:33:48.300 concentration camp, a work camp for the rest of your days, never to be heard of, never to be seen

00:33:53.280 again. To be identified as a Christian, to be found as a Christian is the equivalent of a death 0.98

00:34:02.340 sentence in this area. The North Korean government would see the state as the highest form of 0.99

00:34:16.080 authority that where all allegiance lies. And so for Christians who have a higher authority 1.00

00:34:21.560 than the state. Christians are immediately seen as enemies of the state. They're assumed 0.85

00:34:26.980 to be enemies of the state or in some cases assumed to be allies of the West that might

00:34:34.660 have different political intentions or things of that nature. So Christians in these areas face

00:34:41.800 dire, dire circumstances. So North Korea would be the place that we would place on the top of the

00:34:48.260 list where it is most difficult and most dangerous for a Christian to be.

00:34:52.660 And I read also that executions there for your faith have reportedly increased over 0.62

00:34:58.220 the past several years.

00:34:59.340 So even though it has been dangerous for a very long time, it seems like the smash is

00:35:03.980 getting greater there too.

00:35:05.140 Yeah, in many cases, these send shockwaves, these very public executions, very public

00:35:15.220 awareness. And in many cases, if they feel like, okay, it's been a little too long,

00:35:21.020 we need to remind people that we're in charge. We need to remind people what the consequences are.

00:35:26.240 We can see these upticks in these very public types of executions.

00:35:32.020 Yeah. I read a book several years ago called Nothing to Envy, and it was just a journalist

00:35:36.420 account of what it's like in North Korea and what it's like for children there. I mean, it's just

00:35:42.700 beyond, I think, anything that I can truly comprehend. That book was very disturbing,

00:35:47.400 but I do encourage people to read it and just realize that there are image bearers of God who

00:35:52.020 are enduring this every single day. And in North Korea, who truly have no connection 0.64

00:35:57.380 to the outside world at all, and yet the fact that the Holy Spirit is able to intervene and

00:36:04.280 intercede, and that it truly is for the Lord, like an open door that He can go through whatever

00:36:10.980 door he wants to, that shows the power of God because it's hard to even imagine how it's even

00:36:16.200 possible for someone to know and believe in the gospel. And for us just to realize that those

00:36:21.880 people who know that they will get executed, they will get thrown into a prison camp, they will be

00:36:26.880 separated from their family, the love of Jesus and the desire for the gospel is so strong there

00:36:33.820 that those people are willing to risk everything for it. And that's not just something that

00:36:38.060 happened 500 years ago or in Nero's time. That's something that's happening right now.

00:36:42.320 Absolutely. And you talk about the heart of these men and women, a couple of things that I think

00:36:48.040 just illustrate that so well is one of the ways that we support Christians, and there are about

00:36:54.420 400,000 Christians in North Korea. Incredible. And it is growing. But one of the ways that we

00:37:03.780 support is we are able to broadcast via radio ministries across, you know, messages across

00:37:09.260 the border.

00:37:10.500 And I was...

00:37:11.180 So from South Korea?

00:37:12.480 Yeah, or in China as well, depending upon, you know, the locations.

00:37:16.420 And, you know, the North Korean Christians, one of the things that they had asked in those

00:37:22.340 broadcasts was to get information on Christians elsewhere in the globe that were experiencing

00:37:29.380 persecution because they wanted to be able to pray for their brothers and sisters.

00:37:33.140 You know, they're on top of the world watch list, but yet they wanted to be praying for others around the globe that were experiencing persecution.

00:37:40.640 There's also, you know, we are able to operate a series of safe houses, not in North Korea, but across the border where, you know, in China, where, you know, individuals are able to come, be nursed back to, you know, physical health.

00:37:55.960 Because as you mentioned, I mean, the reality is for all, for most North Koreans, you know, that there are humanitarian, you know, lack of food and those types of things.

00:38:05.660 And so we're able to, you know, nurse people back to physical health, emotional health, and spiritual health.

00:38:11.680 um it has again just humbles me to see that there you know men and women that have in essence

00:38:19.820 escaped from north korea um have come to these safe houses been nursed back to health and

00:38:26.160 their goal and their intent in what they have done is to go back to north korea so they can

00:38:32.800 continue to minister rather than you know like i think many of us would say well gosh i'm free

00:38:38.280 out of there, thank God, they've instead taken a posture of, how can I be equipped so that I can

00:38:45.920 go back and continue to share the gospel with my friends and neighbors? Are there any countries

00:38:52.520 that you find surprises people here in America when you say, yeah, this country makes it hard

00:38:57.140 to be a Christian? I think all of us, even if we don't know the extent of persecution

00:39:00.640 in North Korea or Yemen or Nigeria, it doesn't surprise us because we know communism, secularism 0.60

00:39:07.300 reigns in north korea then we know islam reigns sub-saharan africa in the middle east but are

00:39:13.880 there any nations that you wish people knew to pray for yeah because it's just not as um it's

00:39:21.620 not as well known that christians are persecuted there you know i think one of those i mean honestly

00:39:25.960 it's mexico even we mentioned a few moments ago i mean how many people vacation in mexico

00:39:30.780 or go there. But there are realities of persecution there. I mean, there's a couple of

00:39:38.120 drivers of persecution there. One, again, like I mentioned, Pastor Umberto and some of those

00:39:44.780 traditional faiths, ancestral type faiths, where those who come to faith in Christ can be seen as

00:39:52.240 an opposition, and so there can be hostility there. But one of the very also present realities

00:39:58.900 there are with the cartels and organized crime, because, you know, just simply stated that

00:40:04.920 the Christian church is bad for business, you know, whether it be, you know, young men that

00:40:10.700 are not getting drafted into the ranks of the cartel or, you know, folks that are, you know, 1.00

00:40:17.100 being pulled away from the vices of, you know, drug use or alcohol that so many of them make

00:40:22.940 they're living on, many can see that of these cartel leaders see the Christian church as a

00:40:31.420 threat. And so they will look to, at times, strike with violence. I met a pastor, this was in

00:40:40.120 northern Mexico, so not far from the border. And he was pastoring congregations where the cartels

00:40:50.540 had basically come to town and said, we're setting up shop. You know, pastor and men and women of

00:40:57.360 the church, you can step in line, you can grow what we tell you to grow, you can help get things

00:41:02.620 from point A to point B as and when we tell you to do them, or you can suffer the consequences.

00:41:08.340 And there was a portion of the church there that said, okay, we acquiesce, we fall in line,

00:41:14.200 we don't think that we can stand against this. But there was another portion of the church

00:41:17.720 They said, no, we won't go along with it. And to make an example of these folks that the cartels came in one night and with guns a blazing and forced people out with the clothes on their back, they corralled them in a school building and held them captive there.

00:41:39.960 wouldn't allow them to escape wanted people to see that you know they were being held there

00:41:45.000 they're you know men women and child there was one bucket in the middle of the room to

00:41:48.720 you know utilizes the bathroom for for a period of 10 days no water provided they had to drink

00:41:54.800 water from puddles and and you know that the cartels are saying this is what awaits those that

00:42:00.240 that stand against us you know the the pastor those are the realities that they're having to

00:42:07.440 to pastor their, their congregations through as far as what does that, what does that look

00:42:12.660 like?

00:42:13.000 And so, um, yeah, that's, you know, I think that that is one that that's not too talked

00:42:18.400 about.

00:42:18.880 Yeah.

00:42:19.420 What is the circle of silence?

00:42:21.980 Yeah.

00:42:22.240 So that is, there's an area of about seven, eight States, um, that, that geographically

00:42:30.840 actually form a, form a circle.

00:42:32.660 And, you know, Christianity there, while, you know, most of us think of, you know, Mexico as a Christian or a Catholic nation, this is an area where, you know, those, you know, faith traditions, Christianity and Catholicism are not heavily represented.

00:42:52.160 You know, represent a very small minority of the population.

00:42:57.680 And so, you know, there is not a strong presence of the church there to, you know, vocalize

00:43:05.240 and to, you know, make the message of the gospel known.

00:43:08.300 So that's one area of silence.

00:43:10.060 But then again, these forces that come into play that would seek to silence the church

00:43:14.280 that is there, the remnant that is continuing to, you know, to be active and looking to

00:43:20.360 proclaim the gospel. There are forces that would seek to silence that, whether it be the cartels

00:43:27.040 or whether it be the traditional religions in the area. They want no presence of Christianity 0.95

00:43:33.980 there. They want it to be silenced. 0.98

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00:44:36.440 and i've seen reports of south america and the religious makeup changing it has been for a very

00:44:50.440 long time predominantly catholic kind of similar to mexico some syncretism there some mix in with

00:44:57.800 some voodoo and some witchcraft practices but there seems to be a movement towards evangelicalism

00:45:05.820 in South America. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

00:45:09.260 Yeah, you know, I think similar to Africa, there are these places where the church

00:45:16.700 is continuing to grow. You know, the Christian church in many places in South America,

00:45:25.280 that is the case. I mean, historically, people have sent, you know, missions,

00:45:30.000 long-term missionaries there for years and Bible colleges and, you know, different types of

00:45:34.700 trainings and things that have continued to lay foundations for the work that is happening.

00:45:41.740 But I think what all of these mission works desire to see is when that growth is locally

00:45:50.580 owned, when that growth is being held by believers that are there and are looking to grow and

00:45:58.900 expand the church.

00:45:59.660 And despite the opposition that many of them face, we see that.

00:46:04.360 We do see a church that is present, a church that is not just seeking to revel in anonymity or just looking to hide in the shadows, but a church that's saying that, no, we're to be a city on a hill.

00:46:20.360 We are image bearers of Christ.

00:46:24.480 We have a light that our darkened communities desperately need.

00:46:28.820 Mm-hmm. And, you know, there's a lot of debate that I see about how Christians are treated in

00:46:35.260 Israel specifically. Is Israel on the list of nations where Christians are persecuted?

00:46:42.220 It is not. Israel doesn't make that top 50. You know, I will say that, you know, and this is

00:46:51.460 illustrative of this idea that persecution never exists in a vacuum, that, you know, there will be,

00:46:57.860 you know um you know societal factors there'll be geopolitical factors there will be all of

00:47:03.140 these different things that that you'll get intertwined into to that reality and you know

00:47:09.360 there there is a church um you know the big c church you know in in in these areas that has

00:47:16.560 has felt neglected um it is not necessarily been the type of persecution that we've seen in other

00:47:23.880 places but there's a church under threat certainly in in these areas that as the hostilities as the

00:47:30.180 instabilities um you know without being political there there's you know churches in areas of gaza

00:47:37.800 that that are saying you know put your politics aside you know we're christian brothers and

00:47:43.980 sisters you know don't don't don't leave us neglected don't don't yeah don't don't ignore us

00:47:49.740 And don't just say, well, I'm on this side of this political issue, so I'm going to ignore the plight of Christians in Gaza or in any place, because it really does go beyond that.

00:48:00.780 And our affiliation with them transcends our politics.

00:48:03.480 Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:48:04.860 I have no doubt that even in the times of the early church in the book of Acts, as they were mobilizing resources from one place to another to support those Christians that were experiencing hunger, that I'm sure that there are all sorts of geopolitical things at play there, too, that the church recognized that those things need to take a second tier of priority.

00:48:27.880 Not that those things go away or that we completely ignore them because we do want to be voices of justice in those areas as well.

00:48:34.860 but we can't allow those as an excuse to ignore, yeah, the greater issues.

00:48:41.680 Totally. I've heard reports that Muslims in the Middle East and Africa,

00:48:46.160 there are a number of them, I can't say it's a huge number how much it is, but turning to Christ.

00:48:51.660 And obviously we know that the penalties, especially for those who leave Islam and become Christian, are very, very high. 0.74

00:48:57.720 But is that something that you're seeing, that Muslims are becoming Christian in these places? 0.97

00:49:02.120 We are. And ironically, it's in some of the areas as well where we hear about much of the extremists, you know, that, and it's, you know, for those who are more moderate Muslims, you know, as they have been confronted with these ideologies of the extremists, they haven't known what to do with that, that they have, they don't believe it.

00:49:31.720 They don't believe what the extremists are saying.

00:49:34.780 And so for many of them, that's set them on a path of discovery.

00:49:40.140 And we are hearing and experiencing many stories in which folks that have, in essence, been disillusioned by the extremist ideologies that they're hearing around them and are coming to faith in Christ because of that.

00:49:57.940 You know, there was a gentleman that I met a couple years ago now, and, you know, he was, you know, the son of an imam and, you know, a Muslim ruler.

00:50:11.600 And he was being trained to take on mantles of leadership there and was sent to Germany, in essence, as kind of an Islamic missionary to better understand the enemy.

00:50:31.840 And as he arrived there and began to engage with some of the Christians, he realized that, you know, that the stories I've been told of who these people are, that they're not true. 0.55

00:50:44.560 And he began to question everything. 0.68

00:50:46.960 And, you know, he spiraled downwards into all sorts of drug abuse, alcohol abuse.

00:50:50.840 abuse. And, you know, he said he had hit bottom. And one night he was just praying. He said, you

00:50:58.260 know, God, if you're even real, you know, show yourself to me. And that night, over a period of

00:51:06.220 a couple of nights, he had a dream. And, you know, this was a dream in which he was, you know,

00:51:13.400 walking down the streets and there was a shopkeeper that said, hey, come into my shop,

00:51:17.720 come into my shop and he came into the shop and the tables were just filled with you know gold

00:51:22.760 and jewels and those types of things and the shopkeeper said take these these are for you

00:51:27.080 take them and so you know he filled up his bags and in the dream you know he's walking down the

00:51:32.940 street you know so thankful that you know he's i'm rich i'm rich i'm rich and and um then his

00:51:38.460 roommate woke him up and he was so disappointed to you know be back into his everyday life that

00:51:43.500 the next night he had a dream and he was standing in a throne room and there was a gentleman that

00:51:50.340 he recognized was the shopkeeper. And in this context, he realized that that person was Jesus.

00:51:56.080 And Jesus said, you know, I'm giving you the riches of the kingdom of heaven, you know, come,

00:52:00.960 come to me. And, um, you know, at, for those of a Muslim faith that they don't have the same type 1.00

00:52:09.040 assurance of salvation that we as Christians do, that, you know, they're the only way to guarantee 1.00

00:52:14.920 your salvation is to die in jihad. And so beyond that, it's really this preponderance of your

00:52:22.160 works, you know, as far as, you know, have you earned a right for, you know, eternal glory.

00:52:28.760 And, you know, so he, you know, again, he was living a life of brokenness and debauchery at

00:52:35.920 the time. And, you know, Jesus said, come to me. He said, I can't, you know, I'm sinful. And he

00:52:43.800 said, you know, Jesus said to him, I forgive you. And he said, he looked down upon himself and he

00:52:49.700 said, he can't find the words, but he said, it's like his sin was a physical manifestation on his

00:52:56.520 body that just started to peel away. And, you know, he had his fresh, clean skin underneath it.

00:53:02.660 And so he, the next day he woke up and said, okay, well, I need to start talking to some of these Christians that I've been, you know, trying to learn from in order to, you know, know how I can attack them. 0.96

00:53:16.420 I need to learn from them. 0.97

00:53:18.820 And so he became, you know, a believer.

00:53:21.040 To this day, you know, he was not able to return home because of his faith.

00:53:28.100 It became found.

00:53:29.680 And because of the prominent position that his family had.

00:53:32.660 you know, he came under fire and, you know, there have been fatwas that have been issued

00:53:39.680 that basically a calling for his death and execution, not just for him, but for his wife,

00:53:45.940 as well as his newborn son. And so, you know, the church is growing in these areas and we are seeing

00:53:54.780 that. Last sponsor for the day is Shopify. Okay, if you've got a side hustle, or maybe it's your

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00:54:47.520 with Shopify today, sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash Allie. That's

00:54:53.600 shopify.com slash Allie. I've heard a lot of stories about Muslims specifically seeing God

00:55:05.700 in dreams or seeing Jesus in dreams, which is just interesting. It's not something that we 0.98

00:55:10.880 talk a lot about in the evangelical world, especially in my Reformed Baptist tradition,

00:55:15.700 But the truth is, is that God is going to do what he wants to do, and the means that he chooses to draw his sheep to himself, and God can do anything.

00:55:27.520 I do think it's interesting how he seems to manifest himself in certain ways in certain cultures at certain times and in others, but God's going to do what he has to do to make sure that his sheep hear his voice.

00:55:39.960 And that's something that I take away from what you're saying is that, gosh, God is so faithful and relentless that there is nothing that can impede his will.

00:55:50.640 There's nothing that can stop him from gathering his flock.

00:55:54.820 And then also just the common theme that I'm seeing that Christianity is seen as a boil on the back of tyrants.

00:56:01.700 We are seen as the obstacle to corruption.

00:56:05.220 And we are very inconvenient to bad powers.

00:56:09.960 And always have been, from Nero to today.

00:56:13.080 Yes.

00:56:13.580 Jesus himself.

00:56:16.080 And that even, you know, that's the pattern. 0.98

00:56:20.240 It's like, Christians speak truth, they kill us, the church grows. 0.95

00:56:24.800 Speak truth, kill, church grows. 1.00

00:56:27.320 And you would think that, you know, eventually we would be extinguished, but the gates of hell can't prevail against it. 0.52

00:56:32.980 We see that every day.

00:56:34.520 We do.

00:56:35.180 And it's, you know, perhaps it's a beautiful irony that, you know, the things that this world would most seek to do to destroy the church, it would most seek, you know, to destroy a faith in Christ.

00:56:50.960 You know, Christ, not only is he present in those things, but even those things bend their knee to Christ and his purposes.

00:56:59.100 You know, gosh, you know, death itself was sin's crowning achievement, you know, but yet God utilized the death of his son to create atonement for all of us.

00:57:11.800 You know, so not even the crowning achievement of sin, you know, even that has to bow its knee before the Lordship of Christ.

00:57:19.300 And none of that is true without the resurrection.

00:57:22.300 Amen.

00:57:22.540 The resurrection is where we find hope in the midst of persecution and martyrdom because if Jesus conquered death and he gives us the authority to do so, then we know that we get to be with him forever and one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

00:57:40.300 Tell me just the immediate action step that someone can take.

00:57:43.720 They're listening to this and they're like, okay, I want to get involved.

00:57:47.160 What can they do?

00:57:47.960 How can they get involved and open doors?

00:57:49.460 Yeah. One of the first things I would point people to right now is we have launched, and this is not just Open Doors that has launched this. This is in response to the pastors on the ground that we have the privilege of working with in Africa.

00:58:06.280 One of the things that they vocalized to us a few years ago is that, you know, the persecution

00:58:11.320 that we are experiencing, we feel like the world doesn't know.

00:58:14.900 We feel like the world is unaware.

00:58:18.080 You know, I spent some time this last year with a pastor who is from Nigeria, who spent

00:58:23.620 the last 15 years of his life trying to tell the broader world about the realities of what

00:58:30.660 is going on just to be, you know, routinely dismissed.

00:58:33.740 and people doubting the word that he says.

00:58:37.540 And so what our brothers and sisters have said

00:58:41.200 is that they feel alone,

00:58:42.820 that they feel like it's one thing for politicians

00:58:45.880 to ignore and to turn away.

00:58:47.380 It's another thing for their brothers and sisters in Christ

00:58:50.640 to be unaware or to turn their eye.

00:58:53.280 And so we have, in partnership with pastors

00:58:58.020 throughout the continent of Africa,

00:58:59.720 have launched an Arise Africa initiative

00:59:02.720 in which we've collected a little over 500,000 signatures right now.

00:59:07.340 Our goal is by November to collect a million signatures.

00:59:10.560 And there's really kind of two goals from this initiative.

00:59:18.120 One of those is that we will take this petition to the UN,

00:59:23.060 to the European Union, to the African Union,

00:59:25.560 as well as within our own State Department relationships there

00:59:30.560 to, to let people know that this is important, that there are, you know, men and women around

00:59:36.680 the globe that, um, are aware of what's going on in Africa and what we don't want to be silent.

00:59:41.760 We want to share the arrows with our, our, our brothers and sisters. Um, you know, that, that

00:59:47.780 is one goal of that petition to say that, you know, I stand in, in solidarity and, you know,

00:59:53.000 to raise that, that, uh, awareness to elected officials and calling them to, to be aware of

00:59:58.420 this, you know, that more broadly defined freedom of religious belief as it relates to policy of

01:00:02.840 state, as it relates to international aid and those types of things. But beyond that, and I would say

01:00:09.260 even more important, what this petition seeks to do is it allows the church in Africa to know

01:00:16.020 that we're not forgotten. It allows the church in Africa to know that there are, you know, our hope

01:00:21.920 is to, you know, a million brothers and sisters that are saying, we're aware and we're standing

01:00:27.840 with you. We're going to lift you up in prayer. We're going to stand with you in that. Again,

01:00:32.020 the thing that our brothers and sisters most ask for, not to end their persecution, not to pull

01:00:37.420 them out from persecution, but to pray, to pray and be present with them in that. So that would

01:00:44.020 be a very practical step that anybody can take is just to go online and to sign that petition and

01:00:50.080 say, yeah, I'll let my voice and my name be counted. Yeah. Well, we'll put the link in the

01:00:56.200 description of this episode so people can easily find it and of course joining in prayer and um

01:01:03.220 you know it's easy to be focused on what's right in front of us and god cares about those things

01:01:07.660 too he cares about what happens here in the united states too um but you know jesus says whatever you

01:01:13.500 do for the least of these my brothers fellow christians you do unto me god really cares and

01:01:19.560 when we're instructed not to forget those in prison yes it's important to remember everyone

01:01:24.020 in prison, but specifically that passage is talking about Christians, Christians around

01:01:28.460 the world who are being persecuted.

01:01:30.040 So this is really important to God that we don't forget about these vulnerable people

01:01:34.240 and our prayers and our resourcing.

01:01:36.280 So thank you so much for what you do and thank you for joining us today.

01:01:40.740 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:01:41.760 No, it's a privilege to do so.

01:01:44.600 And I've seen time and time again that, you know, so many times we can create this dichotomy

01:01:50.060 of there and here. But Christ has one church. We're all part of one church around the globe.

01:01:57.880 And there is something beautiful that happens when we all come to the table together collectively.

01:02:03.480 Our brothers and sisters, I think one of the greatest ways to spark revival at a church here

01:02:08.880 in the United States is to actually engage with the persecuted around the globe. There are stories

01:02:14.360 of faith and conviction and courage that just inspire us to take our own faith seriously,

01:02:20.960 to be willing to act on that and to see, you know, is my faith a pearl of great price?

01:02:25.640 Is it something that I am really, truly willing to pursue above all else?

01:02:30.740 Amen.

01:02:31.280 Well, thank you so much.

01:02:32.220 Thank you.

01:02:44.360 You

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 08, 2026

Ep 1344 ｜ Mexican Cartels’ New Target： Evangelical Christians. Here’s What’s Happening ｜ Ryan Brown

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