Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1353 ｜ Fake Aliens, False Prophets & Charismatic Cover-Up Culture ｜ Mike Winger

00:00:00.800 Fake alien pastor government meetings, Bethel Church cover-up culture, Mike Winger is here

00:00:06.820 today uncovering it all.

00:00:09.440 He's got a lot of really troubling information about what is going on in the leadership in

00:00:15.320 the charismatic movement and why we, whether you are charismatic or not, should really

00:00:21.240 care.

00:00:21.920 We've got all of this and more on today's episode of Relatable.

00:00:30.000 Mike, thanks so much for taking the time to join us.

00:00:37.060 Could you first tell us who you are and what you do?

00:00:40.340 Oh, well, my name is Mike Winger, and I'm like a Bible teacher guy that went on YouTube,

00:00:45.020 and it just, the stuff kept growing and reaching more people.

00:00:48.260 And my ministry has also been expanding.

00:00:50.740 My goal is to help people learn to think biblically about everything,

00:00:53.220 but I tend to take on passion projects.

00:00:55.600 And so I did like a two-year study of the topic of women in ministry, or I've done everything

00:01:01.440 the Bible says about divorce and remarriage or book studies.

00:01:04.040 And it's all free content.

00:01:06.120 But I'm also right now in the middle of a series of videos on what I call cover-up culture

00:01:10.600 inside of, in particular, the charismatic church, although it does exist elsewhere,

00:01:14.820 trying to expose bad guys and the systems that keep them in place.

00:01:20.420 Can we talk about your most recent video?

00:01:23.760 this video is about disclosure it's about perry stone can you tell us who perry stone is

00:01:29.920 oh well perry stone uh this is about all the alien stuff right uh perry stone made a video

00:01:36.640 about um how he he heard about a secret meeting where um the government government people were

00:01:44.140 were informing pastors ahead of these coming disclosures about aliens and ufos and uaps or

00:01:49.340 whatever. And I've had to add UAP to my vocabulary now. So this was so hyped up by him. It was very

00:01:55.880 misleading. You know, the fact that there's groups of people meeting to talk about their beliefs

00:02:00.080 about aliens or the government, that's not new at all. That's been going on for quite a long time.

00:02:04.160 But the idea that government officials were there and that they were informing these pastors so

00:02:08.400 that the pastors could help the people because the government was about to tell us stuff that

00:02:12.560 was so wild. They're going to confirm lizard beings, lizard alien being type things that, um,

00:02:18.420 that it went viral.

00:02:20.300 It went viral.

00:02:20.920 It goes all over the place.

00:02:21.960 And then pastors start showing up.

00:02:23.240 I was in the meeting.

00:02:24.020 It's true.

00:02:24.780 And they were, I think, just hungry for views and hungry for attention.

00:02:28.560 These guys rode this thing into a viral embarrassment to the body of Christ.

00:02:34.320 Alan DiDio was one of them.

00:02:35.720 Mike Signorelli was one of them.

00:02:36.960 Joseph Z was one of them.

00:02:38.260 Larry Raglin was another one.

00:02:39.880 These are all pastors who got a spotlight time for it.

00:02:43.160 And they absolutely misled people into thinking that they had some sort of inside government

00:02:49.200 government approved inside information.

00:02:52.740 And it was it was just smoke and mirrors, the whole thing.

00:02:55.820 What were they saying?

00:02:56.620 And how was it proven to be untrue?

00:03:00.320 Well, initially, they're saying things like the government people were there and they're

00:03:04.900 giving us classified info.

00:03:06.560 OK, those are like the two pieces that probably grab people the most later on when they were

00:03:10.800 confronted more about.

00:03:11.680 So sorry, let me back up.

00:03:12.880 let me clarify for just a second. So Perry Stone, is he just a YouTuber? He's just someone

00:03:19.040 who had this information because he's friends with Paula White, who is part of the Trump

00:03:24.220 administration. And he put out this video saying, I've got inside information. There's alien

00:03:30.220 conversations going on with pastors and government officials. And you're about to be told some crazy

00:03:35.100 things. These pastors go out and say, yeah, I was part of that meeting. That really did happen.

00:03:39.180 start saying all of this stuff that supposedly the government had told them.

00:03:43.700 So that was the timeline.

00:03:45.380 That's how it all happened.

00:03:46.380 And that's who Perry Stone is, right?

00:03:48.980 Pretty much.

00:03:49.760 Yeah, I would just add that Perry Stone is also part of cover-up culture in that he

00:03:54.140 was sexually preying upon women in his own ministry.

00:03:59.580 And when multiple witnesses came forward and people tried to confront him about it, he

00:04:04.300 threatened to kill himself.

00:04:06.760 He said his wife would leave him.

00:04:08.120 And this is all on tape.

00:04:09.180 and uh then said that he would destroy his own ministry if they if they tried to blow this up

00:04:14.720 or tell people about it um but he's still going he's still going because there's there's no

00:04:19.380 stopping these guys in this movement because because of the culture of cover-up but yeah

00:04:22.920 it's that same guy who has a bunch of other issues weird he's a he's he's not a he's not

00:04:27.940 a safe dude spiritually speaking okay so he's like a a prophecy guy so he's got he's got his

00:04:34.760 Stone Ministry, Perry Stone Ministries, where he talks about his prophecies breaking the

00:04:42.040 apocalypse code. He's got a conference with Jonathan Cahn and some other people about

00:04:51.140 prophecy, a lot about the end times, all of that kind of stuff. So he was the guy who came out and

00:04:58.540 said alien conversations are going on and he's buddies with paula white right yeah he's part of

00:05:06.260 that whole white house faith department uh he's part of that and yeah so he comes out he makes

00:05:12.820 these wild claims and then other guys you know that got a lot of interest because the paula white

00:05:16.700 connection probably but then these other pastors confirm it hey i was there too everything he's

00:05:21.060 saying is true that's initial claims from alan didio he's saying that what perry said is true

00:05:25.200 And he claimed government was there.

00:05:27.040 They're disclosing information to pastors.

00:05:29.320 It's including information about like aliens and lizard like beings.

00:05:34.520 You know, you know, we're talking about, we're talking about all those, all those viral weird

00:05:37.580 videos are like, it's a lizard person.

00:05:40.700 And, and so that was not true.

00:05:43.220 Now, later, after it went viral, guys like Alan DiDio, in particular, he was the one

00:05:48.440 who did it the most.

00:05:49.620 He's a pastor, a charismatic pastor.

00:05:51.160 he says we never said it was they were government workers we never said that we and they're now

00:05:57.540 they're gaslighting everybody and lying about it and so i made a little video saying hey guys i

00:06:03.580 think there's this there's there's nothing to this i don't i don't think government was really there

00:06:07.160 just disregard it and then basically this led to me having to investigate more because they were

00:06:14.240 claiming they hadn't said what they did say so i went ahead and pulled clips together and just

00:06:17.900 made the case and presented the evidence because I don't want people to be misled, especially by

00:06:22.700 Christian leaders in the public space. I think it's an embarrassment to Christianity. And if

00:06:27.360 we don't call it out, then it's going to be like CNN that calls it out. And then everybody

00:06:32.120 looks like they're kooks instead of just the kooks.

00:06:35.720 So who were the pastors meeting with? What was the truth?

00:06:39.580 They were meeting with just private Christians who they say are intelligence operators. They

00:06:46.020 like to use that phrase, but they don't actually work for any government agency or any sort

00:06:50.000 of government at all.

00:06:52.440 They're private Christians who have theories based upon publicly accessible information,

00:06:59.240 stuff that's not classified.

00:07:00.820 It's all been declassified info for years.

00:07:03.000 And they just go and they try to put it together in a way that they think tells a story that

00:07:06.540 they believe is true.

00:07:07.260 And the story they believe is true, interestingly enough, is that the government's going to

00:07:12.340 affirm aliens do exist. And they're going to couple this with propaganda from the government

00:07:17.220 itself to say Christianity is false. And Larry Ragland, one of the guys that was there, he said,

00:07:23.240 government will soon, there will soon be an alien in the sky who will be a false Jesus.

00:07:27.700 And there'll be a false rapture event. And they're going to use this to deceive Christians

00:07:31.140 around the world. And I think most believers hear that and they go, that guy needs help,

00:07:36.220 right? We don't want him propped up as I have secret info from the government because he

00:07:41.280 doesn't. This was deception. These are kooks. These men are kooks. Let's not have them spearhead

00:07:48.220 because this is what they did. They tried to position themselves as the government has informed

00:07:52.060 us of what's really coming, guys. You need to listen to us. We will be your guides. We'll be

00:07:57.120 your thought leaders through this turbulent time of disclosure. And I was like, this is going to

00:08:02.240 hurt a lot of people. They should not be our thought leaders.

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00:09:09.380 purchase. adelnaturalcosmetics.com, code Allie. Man, I remember back in 2020, and I feel like

00:09:20.840 in moments of chaos and moments of distress, economic distress, worldwide turmoil, people

00:09:27.760 look to these so-called prophets to try to get some clarity. People want to know what's going on.

00:09:33.480 You feel like you can't trust the media. You feel like you can't trust the government.

00:09:37.220 There's definitely a new narrative going on right now that, you know, even Donald Trump,

00:09:43.120 he's just as corrupted as the Bidens, as anyone else. So officially can trust absolutely no one.

00:09:50.340 And so you look to these alternative voices who claim to have a clear and direct line

00:09:56.220 to God and from God, who are going to tell you not only what's going to happen in the

00:10:00.920 future, but what's really going on.

00:10:03.020 People aren't satisfied.

00:10:04.640 Some people are not satisfied with just reading scripture and saying, okay, well, like Jesus

00:10:09.040 wins in the end.

00:10:09.860 I don't know everything that's going to happen until then, but I know my marching orders

00:10:14.160 and I'm going to do that.

00:10:15.240 People find that to be boring or they find that to be demoralizing.

00:10:18.740 And so I feel like they look for something else. And I remember during COVID, there was a lot of

00:10:23.520 so-called Facebook prophecy going on then. I remember this one particular person and I was

00:10:30.640 like, I remember, I remember watching this. Someone who does not ever buy any of this stuff

00:10:35.660 or ever think it's believable. I watched this guy and he was talking about how he had some kind of

00:10:43.280 vision that in this was maybe like May of 2020. But in September, he saw these two different

00:10:51.300 armies, these red armies. And now he realizes one represented China, one represented Russia,

00:10:57.180 and they were basically going to take the country by storm and all of this stuff.

00:11:01.840 And honestly, I mean, I never believed any of it, but I was watching. I'm like,

00:11:06.240 I could totally see why this is compelling in this state of chaos that we have right now.

00:11:11.300 you kind of feel like anything could happen. And we are so vulnerable. We had COVID, we had BLM,

00:11:16.960 we had all of this stuff going on. We had the election. I'm like, we do feel like, oh my gosh,

00:11:22.840 anyone could take over at any time. 2020 felt like the end of the world for a lot of people.

00:11:27.680 And right now with everything going on with Iran and Israel, infighting here, so much fracturing,

00:11:34.440 there's a lot of people, again, economic distress, wondering, okay, what's really going on?

00:11:39.660 And so they look to things like this. It's exciting to them. It gives them, they feel

00:11:46.080 some kind of clarity, but unfortunately you have people like this who are willing to

00:11:50.460 cash in on that distress and that confusion and that chaos and present a possible alternative

00:11:58.060 underground narrative of what's really going on. So yeah, beware, beware, especially people

00:12:06.760 on Facebook because it seems to especially thrive there. Yeah, there's I mean, we crave we crave a

00:12:13.520 narrative that explains what's going on. We're nervous because we see bad news and intimidating

00:12:17.580 things are happening. Yeah. And so we're looking for someone we can trust and our trust in

00:12:21.740 institutions and stuff has been damaged and justifiably. But what's weird to me is to boomerang

00:12:28.240 and go, man, I blindly trusted government. I'm now going to blindly trust this podcaster over here

00:12:35.660 and, and say, yeah, I talk, I know some people, what they have is they have one news source

00:12:41.760 for everything. They just have one person that they trust. And if that person's off,

00:12:47.220 you can be in a lot of trouble. And the Bible kind of helps us with this. It says to test all

00:12:50.560 things, hold fast to that, which is true. So I have to test even those people that are giving

00:12:55.040 me their narrative. I have to test that. I can't just become sort of devotionally committed to

00:13:01.120 this individual as my source of truth. I need to test all things. How does this story fit into

00:13:06.980 cover-up culture? Because some people might think that there are two different things. You're

00:13:10.400 talking about cover-up culture within the charismatic church specifically, maybe American

00:13:14.180 Christian culture in general, and then this strange UFO thing. Do they go together?

00:13:19.580 Well, I think so too. I do think they go together. It goes together in the sense of there being

00:13:23.380 no true accountability for leaders in the movement. So Alan DiDio, for example, he lied

00:13:30.440 multiple times i've documented it i've got the evidence i presented a video and he's he's one

00:13:35.300 of the guys who helped really push forward this viral moment that was manufactured and um there

00:13:41.920 is to my knowledge zero accountability from his own leadership on this zero accountability there's

00:13:47.600 nobody holding him to task he's able to just immediately go public in his church i mean

00:13:52.700 there could be hundreds of people or however many people that are there and put videos online just

00:13:58.760 gaslighting the world about these things. What we need in churches is there's enough men of

00:14:03.080 integrity in the leadership so that when one of your leaders goes out and publicly lies to the

00:14:07.900 world, you hold his feet to the fire and you go, you need to deal with this. We're not going to

00:14:12.360 gaslight people. We're not going to just hold up your reputation no matter what. Because what he

00:14:16.000 does is he goes out and he attacks any witnesses who'd speak against him. And anybody in his church

00:14:20.620 who says, hey, pastor, you lied to everybody. That really hurts the name of Christ. And they're the

00:14:27.140 ones that are demonic. Oh, you've got a divisive spirit. You've got the spirit of Jezebel, or you're

00:14:31.400 an accuser of the brethren. And so this is all connected because it's the same machinations

00:14:37.220 inside of a ministry that allow someone to get away with sexual predations or with adultery

00:14:44.280 or with all kinds of other stuff, manipulation and abuse of money, because the leader is seen

00:14:50.600 as the ministry. The leader is seen as the most important person in the church. And that right

00:14:55.600 there I think is is inappropriate I think as Christians that my series of videos on this are

00:15:01.340 based on the idea that leaders aren't more important than normal people just that one

00:15:07.520 principle if we can get that back in place you know Jesus laid his life down for the sheep he

00:15:11.980 calls the apostles to lay their lives down for others Paul he's like I'm I should be the one

00:15:17.500 laboring and suffering for you but cover-up culture reverses this and the leader is the

00:15:23.640 elite who lives in in the most like glory and honor realm whereas the individuals they're

00:15:31.060 disposable even if he hurts or wounds them they should just go somewhere else and that snowballs

00:15:37.020 into all kinds of atrocious abuse situations when it comes to cover-up culture and what you've been

00:15:43.540 uncovering there specifically right now in the charismatic church before we get into what you

00:15:48.780 have actually uncovered about cover-up culture. I'm curious why. Why this subject? What prompted

00:15:54.940 you to dig further into this? Because it could have been a lot easier not to.

00:16:00.740 Oh, a lot easier. The amount of work these videos take is much more than what I could do otherwise.

00:16:06.920 Well, here's the thing. You know this. You go online. I was a youth pastor for 14 years in a

00:16:13.860 local church. You meet the needs of the students you've got right in front of you, or you meet the

00:16:18.080 needs of the congregation in front of you. But you go online, you start reaching people around

00:16:22.680 the world and you pay attention to their needs. At least this is what I try to do. What are the

00:16:27.660 needs of the people that I actually can impact and touch? And so they were asking me, can you

00:16:32.400 please cover this? Can you please talk about this? And over the years, I would do something like on

00:16:36.480 the Passion Translation. Hey, Mike, the Passion Translation, is this legit? Like my pastor's

00:16:41.200 saying we should all read it. Our church just switched over to this translation. Bill Johnson

00:16:45.300 says that it's the best thing ever. So I look into it and I find problems and I address them

00:16:50.260 to try to help the people that are asking me questions. And this sort of led to a snowball

00:16:55.880 effect where it was like a lot of the issues that people are sending me and asking me to help

00:17:00.580 them with are connected to the same movement. And then I found out about a cover up in a particular

00:17:07.440 situation. So there's a guy named Sean Bowles, right? This guy was the rising star in the

00:17:12.260 charismatic church. He is considered like the prophet who will take us to the next level.

00:17:16.640 And they have prophecies about what the next level is and everything. It's a big machine,

00:17:20.500 all that's going on here. And this guy, Sean Bowles, he was like the most prolific prophet

00:17:24.200 that they had ever had around. And he's going around and he knows your birthday and he knows

00:17:28.100 your last name. He knows your dog's name. He knows your grandmother passed away six months ago.

00:17:33.920 And he just gets this information, it seems, from God directly. But it turns out this guy was going

00:17:40.600 around, digging up people's information up on Facebook and just making stuff up, getting

00:17:45.600 propped up in the movement, making it look like there was a revival that wasn't real

00:17:48.660 and all this other stuff.

00:17:49.860 And it also turns out when I looked into just, I'm just going to expose this guy because

00:17:53.700 the leaders don't seem like they want to do it.

00:17:55.580 And people who follow me also are aware of this guy.

00:17:58.280 I want to help them.

00:17:59.380 And it turns out that there was like a dark underbelly of all kinds of other stuff going

00:18:03.480 on.

00:18:03.940 And it wasn't just with Sean and his perverse behaviors towards other people, like, like

00:18:08.400 sexual even illegal stuff um but also with leaders that knew about it and didn't stop the man and

00:18:15.220 then i found it was just a network of a whole bunch of others as well i called it cover-up

00:18:19.120 culture because there's there's like systems in place i know this sounds wild for me to say this

00:18:24.540 the guy who's like i'm not really into conspiracy theories you know it's not a conspiracy so much

00:18:28.360 as it is just a moral compromise in in in the pursuit of revival which allows like evil men

00:18:36.760 to stand up and lead the church.

00:18:39.560 And so I started to uncover it.

00:18:41.820 And once I made like one video,

00:18:43.680 even just a post online,

00:18:45.740 hey, I think it was when I said,

00:18:48.080 if you've been threatened with lawsuits

00:18:50.420 by church leadership in a way

00:18:52.640 that's meant to keep you silent

00:18:54.080 and keep you from telling the truth

00:18:55.700 and protecting people,

00:18:56.860 reach out to me, I want to help you.

00:18:58.600 And I just start getting

00:18:59.760 all these witnesses flooding in.

00:19:02.060 And normally I'm just teaching

00:19:03.360 through scripture.

00:19:05.460 Well, right now I've decided

00:19:06.380 to highlight one verse in particular, 1 Timothy 5.20. It says that the elders who are sinning

00:19:11.180 rebuke in the presence of all that the rest also may fear. And it's the one thing that will fix and

00:19:16.320 undo the damage of what I'm calling cover-up culture. And so all these witnesses start coming

00:19:20.680 to me. I'm interviewing people for months. I'm gathering all kinds of evidence. And the trust

00:19:25.040 I've built as a Bible teacher made them feel that they could, I think, give me this information.

00:19:29.780 I'm not just like a tabloid reporter or something like that. And so I've been producing video

00:19:34.380 content, you know, one situation after another to try to provoke change from within, especially

00:19:40.140 in the charismatic church.

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00:20:48.440 So it doesn't sound like, but you correct me if I'm wrong, you weren't necessarily

00:20:52.340 setting out to expose the charismatic church or expose leadership within the charismatic church.

00:20:59.240 it started with this one person who happened to be charismatic, who was basically committing

00:21:03.580 fraud. He was pretending like he knew all these things about people, but he was making stuff up.

00:21:08.480 He was digging it, digging through Facebook, finding the stuff to make it seem like he had

00:21:13.120 some special revelation from God. Then when you dug more into Sean Bowles, you found out that he

00:21:19.500 was kind of being propped up and helped by other leaders within the charismatic church. Is that

00:21:24.680 right? Absolutely. That's right. And when I say other leaders, I mean, Bill Johnson of Bethel is

00:21:31.040 probably the most influential charismatic pastor in the English speaking world. Um, he, you know,

00:21:38.000 Bethel sort of took over where, where Vineyard left off, um, the momentum that Hillsong once had

00:21:44.120 Bethel kind of absorbed that as well. So they've got the music thing and then they've got like the

00:21:47.560 spiritual gift stuff that they do. They train others on how to prophesy. They, people go to

00:21:52.440 their schools and then they get trained up on how to do it the Bethel way, how to do church Bethel's

00:21:58.280 way. And then they go out into churches around the world and they sometimes aggressively try to

00:22:03.020 convert those churches into Bethel style ministry in the pursuit of revival. And when I found out

00:22:09.080 that Shambles was not only just a bad egg in the midst, but that it was known early on that

00:22:16.160 warnings were given, evidence was seen and it was ignored. And then publicly they lied about it. I

00:22:21.540 I mean, publicly, they posted public statements

00:22:23.980 that were deceptive, misleading, and then it got worse.

00:22:28.660 By they, you mean Bethel?

00:22:29.420 By they, I mean Bethel.

00:22:30.400 I mean Bethel leadership.

00:22:32.280 Bethel and Bill Johnson.

00:22:33.960 So was Sean Bowles, for those who don't know,

00:22:36.100 he was connected to Bethel.

00:22:38.680 He had gone to the seminary.

00:22:39.980 Was he a leader in Bethel's church?

00:22:43.580 Well, so Sean was never officially on their staff.

00:22:46.900 And you have to understand in the charismatic world

00:22:49.280 how these networks actually function.

00:22:50.660 they're very much um not a bunch of people under the same umbrella they're a bunch of people who

00:22:57.520 have like trust they join hands and there's trust between them and when one guy props up another guy

00:23:04.060 then he gains from that following so what bill johnson did i'll just give one example was bill

00:23:09.960 johnson uh put put shambles on stage at an event called azusa now and this was i was it 2019 no

00:23:17.300 no no 16 excuse me 2016 azusa now this event in a stadium just packed with i don't know what it

00:23:23.440 was 60 000 people something and it was broadcast online it was seen by millions and this became

00:23:28.380 the moment where sean bulls went from a a profit in in the movement to like the profit in the

00:23:33.500 movement worldwide and bill puts him on stage and he goes our dear friend one of our most trusted

00:23:40.100 friends sean bulls and he's presenting him as as if you trust me bill johnson you should trust

00:23:45.940 Sean Bowles. Now, that was not true. He was actively being perverse and sexually harassing

00:23:53.700 people at the time. He was actively looking up on social media. Here's one little tiny tidbit of

00:23:58.760 what happened. Around this same time, there was a guy within the ministry at Bethel who had raised

00:24:05.080 red flags. And he goes, look, here's Sean's words and here's Facebook. The guy's getting it off

00:24:09.040 Facebook. He meets with two different leaders. One of them is a guy on staff who up until recently

00:24:15.300 was the head of their prophetic, all their prophetic stuff, a guy named Ben Armstrong,

00:24:19.180 who is now in trouble for his own sexual abuse of people. And he tells Ben Armstrong about Sean

00:24:24.680 Bowles. And the guy, Ben Armstrong, just ghosts him, never talks to him again. He won't reply to

00:24:29.940 his email. He goes, send me the document. Then he just doesn't ever speak to him about this issue

00:24:34.620 again. Instead, this weirdo, I know this is getting in the weeds, but this weirdo guy named

00:24:39.620 Paul Cain, who was known for being a sexual predator towards men. He would get men in his

00:24:44.960 ministry who struggle with same-sex attraction, and he would work them down into doing inappropriate

00:24:50.640 things. And this was going on for decades. This guy, Paul Cain, swoops in and starts harassing

00:24:56.480 this young man who's trying to bring accountability and asking Bethel leadership for help. And

00:25:01.920 there's stories like this that just, here's what happened. It just blew up. I come to find out

00:25:08.700 more about Mike Bickle, leader of the IHOP movement, and him sexually preying upon women

00:25:14.280 for decades and using his fake prophecies to do it. I find out about Bob Jones. But let me back up

00:25:20.860 and give you guys this. If you don't know the charismatic movement, okay, you know charismatics

00:25:25.060 most likely. You know people that are part of that. They know these names even if you don't.

00:25:30.020 And if you go back in time a little ways, in the 1980s and early 90s, Vineyard is taking off as a

00:25:38.620 church. And, you know, John Wimber's highly respected, but he's really like a spearhead

00:25:43.400 for the charismatic movement at this point. People might not know. What is Vineyard? Is

00:25:48.900 Vineyard just a charismatic church? Vineyard is, yeah, they're a charismatic church, but also

00:25:55.080 all of these churches have their own music thing. It's very important that they'll have their own

00:25:58.580 interesting, like their own music sort of industry impact. So Vineyard music in the 70s.

00:26:03.060 Yeah, most people know Bethel music, right. Yeah, you know Bethel music now. If you were

00:26:08.300 paying attention in the nineties, you would have known Vineyard music. Yeah. If you were paying

00:26:11.640 attention in the seventies, you would have known, uh, you know, Calvary Chapel's music stuff that

00:26:15.060 they were doing. So yeah, it's just shifted, but, um, but yeah, so Vineyard gets partnered with

00:26:21.240 these Kansas city prophets and they're pushing this, like we're bringing the next wave of the

00:26:25.040 work of the Holy spirit to the church. This is where revival is come to our events. But it turns

00:26:29.980 out that all these Kansas city prophets are corrupt men. They're just many over and over

00:26:34.300 faking prophecies. It's built on lies. Now, I won't get into all the details of those guys,

00:26:39.920 but it's not hard to find and it's relatively well known. But what happened in more recent

00:26:45.820 times is Bill Johnson took up that mantle and they borrowed from those guys and they've endorsed

00:26:50.380 those guys. And then they've also endorsed other guys. And basically, oh, Ali, forgive me if I'm

00:26:55.440 if I'm talking too much about this, but it's it's so pervasive. The amount of fake prophecy,

00:27:02.340 fake miracles, and predations coming from supposed spiritual trusted leaders.

00:27:08.120 It was so pervasive that I stopped what was a verse-by-verse study through Hebrews so I could

00:27:12.680 do an entire series on the cover-up culture, hoping that I can provoke grassroots change,

00:27:16.920 not to destroy charismatic churches, but to bring transformation from within. Because if people just

00:27:22.260 know what's going on, I think that they'll stop it. Okay, can you give us an example of some of

00:27:28.300 these fake prophecies, because this is a, this is a hot topic that there are a lot of people who

00:27:34.740 believe that you can be a prophet and just get it right sometimes. And that it's really not that

00:27:42.040 big of a deal. If someone is not correct, they say they're a prophet from God. They say something

00:27:47.140 doesn't come true. That's okay. Just move on to the next one. But what is this that's going on?

00:27:52.860 These people using fake prophecies basically as a way to like prop up their own authority

00:27:58.060 and then use that authority to intimidate and cover up whatever's going on either underneath

00:28:03.600 them or with their friends.

00:28:06.560 Yeah, I think I think you have to understand what the goal of it all is.

00:28:09.920 Revival is the goal.

00:28:11.060 Like Bill Johnson says, revival at any cost.

00:28:13.280 And unfortunately, what we now know and see about Bill Johnson is that any cost is not

00:28:18.660 an exaggeration.

00:28:19.980 Any cost, the cost of truth, the cost of righteousness.

00:28:22.860 costs of goodness. So if revival is the goal, we want to be in a movement that we feel is having

00:28:29.180 amazing, amazing things happen. You know, God is working in our group more than anywhere else.

00:28:33.780 We're taking Christians to the next level. And that has been the common theme amongst all of

00:28:38.960 these groups. They all have what we call revival culture. So we're bringing the transformation of

00:28:44.400 the church into the new age of the work of the spirit. And so there's theological stuff connected

00:28:49.580 the manifest sons of God and the latter rain movement, which are not biblical teachings.

00:28:53.880 But I'll set that aside for now and say, revival culture is the obsession.

00:28:59.260 So if you want to have revival culture and you need to be, the way in which you do revival

00:29:03.140 culture isn't, it's by comparison.

00:29:05.460 It's our church has more going on than the churches down the street.

00:29:09.400 That's how you do it.

00:29:11.020 Now, how do you do that?

00:29:12.160 If the Holy Spirit is not actually working in men and women to do miracles and signs

00:29:17.500 and wonders in a way that's bigger than your neighbor down the street you fake it and that's

00:29:23.120 what the movement ends up needing to achieve that agenda of revival culture and so how do you fake

00:29:28.080 it well you you do things like um you have people pretend they're healed when they're not and you

00:29:34.720 have it built into your teachings you're claiming it by faith so bill johnson will get on stage and

00:29:39.200 this this to me is a huge red flag he'll get on stage and he'll say um god's healing someone of

00:29:45.020 kidney issues right now. Anybody, if you have kidney issues and God's healing you, raise your

00:29:48.780 hand. Now think about psychologically what this does in a movement. When you are the one to

00:29:55.940 determine your healing and coupled with that as a teaching about faith, that by faith you have to

00:30:00.400 grab the thing that God's doing. And so then you raise your hand because you're trying to grab

00:30:04.940 that thing. You know you want kidney healing. So you raise your hand. But the message that goes out

00:30:10.380 to the world, as this is broadcast around, is that at Bethel, 12 people got healed of kidney

00:30:15.520 issues that day. Of course, they may not have been healed. And so you have teachings about how you

00:30:20.900 have to keep your healing and how maybe you've lost your healing. And so the way healing is

00:30:24.840 handled is not in a biblical fashion. It's in a way that makes it so for the cameras, there's lots

00:30:29.400 of healing, but on the ground in reality, there's maybe not. And that is the same with the prophecy

00:30:35.700 stuff. It can happen the same way. So here's how it used to happen back in the day. Guys like Paul

00:30:41.700 Cain, for instance, who I mentioned earlier, he would go and he would talk to the pastor before

00:30:45.820 he went to a church, visiting a church as a prophet. And he would ask the pastor questions.

00:30:50.380 Tell me about your staff. Tell me about your church struggles. What's going on? Tell me about

00:30:54.060 the congregation. Like, what can I, I want to pray for them. And he would gather data about

00:30:58.320 the congregants. Oh, there's a grandma. Her name is Eunice. She just lost her grandson and she's

00:31:04.740 grieving. And he's like, log that away. He's going to use that when he goes on stage. And

00:31:09.880 this is where the pastor then is a, sadly, a passive participant. Because when the guy gets

00:31:15.660 up on stage and he uses this inside info, because of the culture of the movement, he'll never tell

00:31:20.080 anyone. Yeah, I told him all that. He'll just be quiet about it. Because you know what happens?

00:31:24.460 Next Sunday, after the prophet showed up and he called out people's info on stage,

00:31:29.060 there's like twice as many people at that church the next day. Because it's revival culture. You

00:31:33.180 got to feed the engine and the only way to make yourself more spiritual than the church next door

00:31:37.240 is ultimately if it's not the real work of the spirit is to fake it so this has been shopped

00:31:42.500 out by bethel bethel church has been giving like coaching and teaching on how to do revival and

00:31:49.100 how it can happen and in that teaching is let's let's not publicly test prophecy let's not have

00:31:55.540 real accountability when people prophetically get stuff wrong and uh let's proclaim things

00:32:00.120 bill even has a teaching ali you have a theological mind what do you think of this

00:32:03.480 bill johnson has a teaching that if you prophesy you can sometimes prophesy things god is not saying

00:32:10.320 and god will follow your lead and he will then make it a reality because you declared it

00:32:16.000 this to my my mind explodes when i hear this when i hear this i explain my mind explodes because

00:32:24.500 scripture says that prophecy never comes by the will of man, right? But men move by the Holy

00:32:30.460 Spirit. That's, that's first Peter. So Bill's saying you move the Holy Spirit. It comes from

00:32:37.160 you and your will. And then God responds to it. These kinds of teachings are like, it's, it's like

00:32:43.200 when you're mixing chemicals in your kitchen and you accidentally make mustard gas, this is so

00:32:47.580 dangerous to do this sort of stuff. And it's built into the culture. Yeah. I think he's probably

00:32:53.380 taking jesus's words out of context that if you have enough faith you can say to this mountain

00:32:59.000 move and it will move that's what that's what i'm assuming maybe he's trying to base that on and

00:33:03.620 maybe i'm giving him too much credit that he's even attempting to use scripture of course we

00:33:08.460 know that that's not what god is saying here that's not what jesus is directing us to do to

00:33:13.320 give god orders and god is going to obey us you're right that's not the function of the holy spirit

00:33:19.500 that's not the power of God, that's not something that we see happen in scripture.

00:33:23.300 But I've heard him say a lot of cuckoo things over the years, a lot of very strange and odd

00:33:27.700 things about the nature of the Holy Spirit and signs and wonders in heaven. So it doesn't really

00:33:32.360 surprise me, but it does really shed light. I talk a lot about just how the secular new age

00:33:39.500 culture, I think can unknowingly affect people's theology. I just did an episode about a lot of

00:33:46.080 women believing on TikTok and Instagram that they need to pray to God for a sign like a bluebird

00:33:51.800 landing on their windowsill or something like that. And to show that God loves you or that he

00:33:57.400 wants you to write a book, he wants you to go a certain direction. And on the one hand, I'm like,

00:34:02.900 I'm sure that that is just being influenced by kind of this like medium new age guru stuff that

00:34:12.160 we see online, but I think it is finding a home in a lot of the charismatic movement.

00:34:17.380 I think it finds a home in a lot of the teaching of what you're talking about, the syncretism

00:34:23.420 of wedding, biblical theology, and new age demanding that God show up in a certain particular

00:34:30.220 spectacular way to prove himself to us.

00:34:34.180 And so even as you're talking, it's kind of illuminating that connection for me of like,

00:34:37.920 oh, this might be where a lot of that confusion is coming from with me at the center and God

00:34:44.340 kind of orbiting around me and doing what I say and how I say it.

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00:35:59.280 It's interesting you bring up the new age thing because this was a while ago. People had asked me

00:36:02.980 cover this book, Physics of Heaven, Mike. Can you give us like a biblical analysis of this book?

00:36:06.740 Right. Which I think is a great thing to do. I think it helps people learn to think biblically

00:36:10.280 about everything, which is the whole agenda of my ministry. So I look into Physics of Heaven,

00:36:14.180 and it was one of the worst books I've ever seen. And it's a book that had been promoted by Bethel,

00:36:18.940 that had been shared with students. The author, Judy Franklin, is Bill Johnson's assistant for

00:36:23.440 decades. It's endorsed by Bill. It's endorsed by leaders at Bethel. A bunch of leaders at Bethel

00:36:28.480 have endorsed the book. They've even contributed to chapters in the book. And it is syncretism.

00:36:32.980 which means we're going to take New Age and we're going to merge it into Christianity.

00:36:38.100 And the things, I'll just give you a couple little points they've shared in that book.

00:36:41.480 They were saying, don't be afraid of going into the New Age to learn from them because

00:36:46.500 the Holy Spirit will protect you.

00:36:48.360 Whereas Deuteronomy, God warns the Israelites, like, do not look and inquire, like, what

00:36:54.560 these pagans have done.

00:36:56.340 And then we'll use that in our worship of God.

00:36:59.000 Like, don't even, this is syncretism.

00:37:00.420 This Bible is very clear.

00:37:01.380 This is like literally why the Israelites get deported out of Jerusalem, out of the

00:37:05.800 promised land, because they do this.

00:37:07.960 And they also say it is our goal to go into the new age and restore and rescue things

00:37:15.600 that Satan has stolen from the church.

00:37:18.700 This is an explicit teaching coming from their movement that you're actually going to

00:37:24.560 intentionally merge Christianity with new age practices and beliefs.

00:37:28.920 And when I studied this book, the physics of heaven, and then I did a video about it.

00:37:33.660 I was blown away because I had been critical somewhat of Bethel, but I try to, I try to

00:37:38.280 only be as critical as I can justify in the moment.

00:37:40.780 And I, I know there might be more worse stuff, but I don't know it.

00:37:43.840 So I'm only going to talk about what I know.

00:37:45.380 Well, this took it to the next level.

00:37:47.360 This is when I went, Oh my goodness, Bethel, you are, you're going to ruin souls.

00:37:50.740 You're going to ruin souls when you do this stuff.

00:37:53.300 And Bethel's response, an example of coverup culture, they pulled the book quietly from

00:37:58.800 their bookstores, they minimized what they had done with it. And they said, um, when people

00:38:03.880 inquired, they said, well, we, we removed the book because it had some stuff we didn't agree with in

00:38:08.000 it. What stuff, what stuff did you not agree with? It was, it was just the typical like HR response

00:38:16.140 to something that is actually a deeply important and troubling spiritual issue. And it didn't

00:38:22.260 protect their people. It tried to protect their reputation. And this is, can I say, this is what

00:38:25.640 they did with Sean Bowles when Sean Bowles first started getting exposed for faking prophecy. Now

00:38:29.940 his sexual predations, that's something that really came out because I interviewed the victims

00:38:34.480 and I shared it in my video on the topic. But his fake prophecy, there was a mountain of evidence

00:38:40.880 and they made a public statement after it just first started coming out. And it was basically

00:38:46.500 saying, eh, who knows what the truth is? We don't really know if it's true. And yet I have private

00:38:52.260 text messages of Bethel leadership saying that they do know it's true. And they're just trying

00:38:57.060 to save the prophetic movement by not letting people understand how bad things really are.

00:39:02.840 And that's been the nature of the cover-up culture is, um, we do bad things or we support bad things.

00:39:08.280 We fail to protect people. And when it gets, looks like it's going to get exposed, we deceive,

00:39:13.240 we manipulate, and we don't change the culture that is allowing these guys to rise up. And that's

00:39:19.800 why there's just sexual predator after sexual predator after sexual predator. These fake

00:39:24.940 prophets don't stop at faking prophecy. Imagine if you're willing to lie in God's name, to blaspheme

00:39:30.340 God, manipulate and abuse the people like that. You're not going to be this like safe person to

00:39:36.420 be around in the rest of your life. It's just not going to be the way it is. They're willing to,

00:39:41.100 it sounds like, you know, like taking physics of heaven out of the bookstore. I see this a lot with

00:39:46.080 people who are extremely audacious when it comes to lies manipulation or whatever in order to keep

00:39:56.380 up a pretense of humility before God, they will recant or seemingly repent enough to be able to

00:40:05.100 show someone, yeah, we'll take correction. Look, we'll take correction. We heard someone say this.

00:40:09.600 We looked into it. We went through the process. Now, would someone who is covering something up

00:40:15.160 have done that. And that's kind of like their proof that, see, I really am honest. You just

00:40:20.620 kind of repent just enough, seemingly repent just enough so that you can keep going. And so that you

00:40:27.480 can use that as evidence that you're not, you know, you're not bad. You're not doing anything.

00:40:32.080 I see that a lot, even with podcasters and things like that. It's just a way to kind of save face

00:40:37.100 for a second so you can keep doing what you're doing. You hit the nail on the head. That's

00:40:42.240 exactly what we're seeing, unfortunately, with Bethel. So I did this almost six-hour video on

00:40:48.400 Shambles, but it wasn't just Shambles. I interviewed witnesses for months, I'm telling you,

00:40:52.160 and I incorporated a whole bunch of different situations because my agenda was to show

00:40:56.360 how big the problem is so that hopefully grassroots people will go, we won't stand for

00:41:00.860 this anymore. We are Christians. We're to hold people to a higher standard. We do have to call

00:41:04.760 out our own or else we have no integrity and voice to call out others. And that's a whole

00:41:09.780 different subject, which makes me think about the political Christians right now. You guys are

00:41:14.460 going to, you're going to have no moral grounding to have any effect if you won't call out your own.

00:41:19.120 But anyways, um, the, uh, the situation with Bethel is it's so much worse than the way they

00:41:25.700 would make it sound. And my video came out and I showed so many things, so much, such darkness,

00:41:32.200 such duplicity from leadership, public statements of this private of this. Like for instance,

00:41:36.160 bill johnson he he not only knew that sean was was faking prophecy or he at least let's put it this

00:41:42.020 way he had all the evidence and i mean a mountain of evidence like now they've admitted it by the

00:41:46.000 way they've admitted it publicly after i made it public um but they had that at that mountain of

00:41:50.980 evidence that he'd be faking prophecy and all this stuff uh then bill johnson had a one-on-one

00:41:55.820 meeting in his office with one of the victims of sean bowls and sean bowls did sexually explicit

00:42:00.920 inappropriate things to this person and um and he said is he i i talked to this guy okay i know this

00:42:08.160 man and he tells me in the call with or the the meeting rather with bill johnson he felt loved

00:42:13.160 and he felt cared for and it was really healing for him and he was like i'm so glad i got to do

00:42:16.820 that a couple months later bill johnson goes on tbn and he does a public endorsement of sean

00:42:23.720 Bowles of not only his book, which is a fraudulent, false, prophetic, you know, manual, um, not only

00:42:31.420 that, and he also endorses the man, his life and his ministry. He sits there and goes, not only

00:42:37.580 this book's like the perfect example of a Christian, of a Christian life. And, and, uh, and, and this

00:42:41.880 guy, he backs it up with his life. Oh my gosh. So I talked to the same victim who over the phone,

00:42:49.460 he's like spinning. How could Bill be so loving to me when it's one-on-one? And then he went and

00:42:55.820 did that. What a betrayal. Now, here's my contention. Cover-up culture is this. Bill

00:43:01.620 Johnson has been doing this with not just Sean Bowles, but with other people for many, many

00:43:06.700 years. And what's worse than that, what's worse than that is he's labored to create a culture

00:43:12.460 that is designed to do the very same thing. I'll give you another example. Danny Silk,

00:43:18.280 who was one of the main leaders at Bethel

00:43:20.960 who wrote a book called Unpunishable

00:43:23.060 and he wrote a book called Culture of Honor.

00:43:25.940 And these two books have, I believe,

00:43:27.860 created cover-up culture in churches around the world

00:43:30.140 because Bethel is,

00:43:31.920 there's well-known guys like Kenneth Copeland, right?

00:43:34.280 But churches are generally not paying attention

00:43:36.320 to what Kenneth says

00:43:37.360 or they're not trying to pattern their church after him.

00:43:40.280 Bethel is the model for charismatic churches

00:43:42.680 around the world, right?

00:43:43.900 There's lots of locations,

00:43:44.840 but there's other churches that aren't even Bethel's

00:43:48.280 that follow their model. Well, this model is shaped in many ways by Danny Silk, wrote this

00:43:53.920 book, Unpunishable. And in the book, Unpunishable, he has two cases of how leaders who are preying

00:44:01.340 upon or otherwise failing in leadership, how they are unpunishable. And you put them back

00:44:07.000 in leadership. In the book, he says to the leaders, I'm not here to protect other people

00:44:11.940 from you. Blows my mind. Like if that's not why you're there, then why are you here?

00:44:17.160 but he puts them in and he uses two examples of leaders that he has restored that he personally

00:44:23.000 has restored using the principles of his culture of honor what i call cover-up culture and one of

00:44:27.860 them is a guy named ben armstrong who has just taken a leave of absence because multiple people

00:44:31.900 have come out to talk about how he has been he's groomed them i've spoken to one of the victims

00:44:36.020 her name's sarah and um it's it's astonishing the it's not it's not just a pastor who's like

00:44:44.180 flirting with a congregant we're talking about a supposed prophetic leader who is using prophecy

00:44:50.380 and using his super inside spiritual information oh god's showing me you have daddy issues i will

00:44:56.020 help you i have to put my hands on you to help you don't feel insecure this is okay god wants

00:45:00.460 us to do this i mean like infuriating stuff like you just as a guy like i just want to go

00:45:05.620 and beat the tar out of the guy justifiably um i'm not telling people to do that i'm just saying

00:45:11.640 the feeling is there and it's rightly there. And he puts Ben back in ministry and he calls

00:45:17.980 his grooming and his predatory relationship with this young lady an affair. The other person Danny

00:45:24.660 Silk puts in his book is a guy named Jonathan Welton, who is a diagnosed, diagnosed narcissistic

00:45:31.600 personality disorder who has, there's a seven hour video of all of his victims and all of the

00:45:38.140 testimony. And other leaders, his own board was saying he's not better, Danny. Don't put him back

00:45:43.200 in ministry. Danny unilaterally ignores everybody and writes about this in the book. Oh, this is the

00:45:48.800 way you should restore leaders. So what I'm saying is it's not accidental. This is in the intentional

00:45:55.080 propping up of predatory men in ministry and shaming and disregarding and ignoring their

00:46:02.700 victims it's the opposite of what christians should do and it's and bethel is like the main

00:46:08.500 exporter of this in the world it's i don't even have words for it i i wish this was a theological

00:46:15.360 disagreement i wish that's what that's all it was but it's so much more than that and and they've

00:46:21.240 done it for decades the fact is if bill was and you talk about fake repentance if bill was repentant

00:46:27.060 he could tell you right now about Sean Foyt and he could tell you right now about the stuff that

00:46:33.360 he knows about I could just I could give name after name after name because Bill knew about

00:46:37.080 these sexual predators like Bob Hartley and Bob Jones um he knew about Ben Armstrong stuff and

00:46:43.220 they are playing some weird game right now and it's it's completely inappropriate and I know

00:46:49.340 there's a lot of love for this man if you listen to him teach Ali you've heard him teach you're

00:46:53.280 like he seems harmless he's like the mr rogers of charismatics bill johnson there's another side

00:47:00.560 yeah yeah next sponsor is good ranchers all right wish happy birthday to the united states

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00:48:01.660 When you use my code Allie, you get an extra $40 off your first order. Use code Allie for that

00:48:09.360 discount. That's goodranchers.com, code Allie. There are people that I follow who's, you know,

00:48:20.300 a lot of their perspectives, I really appreciate and agree with that do love him and love Bethel

00:48:25.720 music and love, you know, their ministry. And that's tough. It's not just, it's way more fun

00:48:32.720 when it's theological disagreements. Not that that's superficial because theological disagreements

00:48:38.540 really, really matter, but it's much better when we can just go back to scripture and talk about,

00:48:44.120 okay, you see it this way. I see it this way. Let's see what the Bible has to say.

00:48:48.080 but when we're talking about not just theological distinctions, but we're talking about good versus

00:48:54.000 evil. And to me, like, you know, we talk a lot about different evils on the show. We talk about

00:48:59.020 the cartels. We talk about abortion. We talk about the doctors who are profiting off of, you know,

00:49:04.460 butchering people's bodies. We talk about a lot of evil things. And to me, there's just another

00:49:08.860 level of sickness and anger that I feel when someone who claims to share my faith and serve

00:49:15.140 my God and uses that in the instance that you just explained to emotionally manipulate the very

00:49:21.600 vulnerable people that God calls us to care for and to shepherd and to love and to show

00:49:27.080 God's unconditional love. It's just another level of evil and audacity to me. Then the person who

00:49:35.440 is lost and is acting like a lost person, the person who follows the prince of the power of

00:49:39.880 the air or outwardly is even saying that they follow the prince of the power of the air and is

00:49:44.980 acting like that than the person who says that they're abiding in christ and trying to supposedly

00:49:52.320 win other people to christ but are either acting in a way that is evil or is covering up

00:49:57.700 um something that is evil using christianity as a mechanism to do that it just i don't know it just

00:50:05.060 it really hurts me it makes me it makes me so sick and i'm sure for you i mean i can't even

00:50:11.320 imagine just emotionally how you've been able to get through this and make something like a six

00:50:16.700 hour video talking about some of the most wicked things you've probably ever had to discuss.

00:50:24.400 Yeah. Um, but well, anytime I feel bad for myself, I think about the victims and I'm like, man, I'm

00:50:29.220 here. I'm coming out just trying to help the situation. I, what they went through is, oh my

00:50:34.440 gosh, your spiritual leaders, the people you trust and love either being the ones to prey upon you in

00:50:40.160 ways that are so violating and even sometimes using god like not we're doing this even though

00:50:46.720 it's sinful which is already evil but using god like to manipulate them oh my goodness you know

00:50:54.340 shambles when he would expose himself to his yeah his his uh people inside of like a hotel room he'd

00:51:01.240 make them stay in the room with him and he'd expose himself and and do things to himself right

00:51:07.240 that you can fill in the plank against their wishes.

00:51:09.740 And when they said, this is wrong.

00:51:12.000 And he goes, well, I'm a prophet, I need release.

00:51:14.320 And you're being legalistic.

00:51:15.900 You have a religious spirit.

00:51:16.900 God needs to deliver you from your religious spirit.

00:51:18.880 And here's a man you believe is a real prophet

00:51:21.040 because Bill Johnson stood up on stage and said he was

00:51:24.260 and said how much he trusted him.

00:51:26.080 And so it's jarring.

00:51:28.540 My ministry has been offering counseling to the victims.

00:51:30.520 We've paid for many people to get counseling.

00:51:32.460 We've done legal consultations for them

00:51:34.820 where we pay for them to see an attorney

00:51:36.160 because they're being threatened by, under NDAs,

00:51:39.260 church NDAs and stuff like that.

00:51:41.640 But here's, okay, that's all dark and bad news.

00:51:44.240 Here's the good news.

00:51:46.040 These churches, I believe, maybe I'm being naive,

00:51:49.800 I believe are filled with people who love Jesus.

00:51:53.120 The churches themselves, now the leadership,

00:51:54.680 there's a lot of corruption because of this ambition,

00:51:57.280 this ambition for revival culture that is bred corruption

00:51:59.920 because that's how you get the job done.

00:52:01.900 But the people that flood into them

00:52:04.960 are often very sincere, Christ-loving believers

00:52:08.780 who have had distortions in their faith

00:52:11.140 from their leadership, yes,

00:52:13.300 but if they just know, if you just uncover it,

00:52:15.460 if you just show it for what it is,

00:52:17.340 I don't think they'll stand for it

00:52:18.560 and I don't think they'll be able to unsee what they've seen.

00:52:21.420 I think that now when they see the manipulations again

00:52:23.600 or when they hear the story of,

00:52:25.100 Pastor so-and-so, he's leaving,

00:52:27.200 the Lord's calling him out,

00:52:28.180 we don't know where he's calling him to,

00:52:29.500 but you know there's this woman crying

00:52:31.300 in the corner over here.

00:52:32.740 And that's when you as the church, you go,

00:52:34.960 wait, are we doing our job here?

00:52:37.600 Are we taking care of people like we should?

00:52:39.340 Let's find out.

00:52:40.700 And they're going to push.

00:52:41.660 So I'm believing in like a grassroots transformation.

00:52:44.620 I don't expect the main leaders to change, to be honest.

00:52:46.840 If they did, you would know it.

00:52:47.820 There'd be no, nobody would say,

00:52:49.040 do you think this was real, Mike?

00:52:50.220 Like you would know, you would know this was legit repentance

00:52:52.900 and like, cause it would, it would come out

00:52:54.900 more than you've ever even known would come out.

00:52:57.560 But yeah, the fact that, Ali, think about this.

00:53:00.600 The fact that in the American church,

00:53:02.020 we've been able to have guys like Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn. We've had these guys

00:53:07.920 successfully pull off their fraudulent, insane ministries around the world for generations.

00:53:19.260 That same thing that allows those guys to happen allows a pastor to groom and sleep with someone

00:53:27.620 in the congregation and then she leaves and he just keeps going. So how do we as, as Protestants,

00:53:35.460 I think Catholics have their own authority structure that's different than ours, you know,

00:53:40.740 which brings with it maybe some similar problems and corruption that we've seen over the years.

00:53:45.320 But for those of us who are Protestant, we've got our smaller forms of authority. What do we do

00:53:51.680 as lay people to ensure transparency, push back against victim abuse, push back against

00:53:58.680 cover-up culture in our own local churches, in our own denominations?

00:54:03.800 So I've talked to a lot of other guys about this, and initially there was a lot of people

00:54:08.400 saying we need to have a structure in place, like a leadership structure in place that

00:54:12.960 kind of has oversight over churches.

00:54:15.100 Charismatic churches are very rogue.

00:54:16.760 they're typically pretty rogue

00:54:18.660 do their own thing

00:54:20.100 and don't have a lot of accountability over them

00:54:22.600 like some other church styles do or denominations do

00:54:25.100 I personally

00:54:27.340 I want a one size fits all

00:54:29.220 you know answer to this kind of stuff

00:54:31.440 and not be like oh we need to create a new denomination

00:54:33.620 that's going to be the solution

00:54:34.700 like this is A it's not going to work

00:54:36.120 B it's too small

00:54:37.900 it won't reach enough people to affect them

00:54:40.140 so in my opinion the things we need to see are

00:54:42.540 people that are

00:54:44.260 that have moral clarity

00:54:45.880 so that they know that even if they're the only voice

00:54:48.220 raising their voice for somebody who's been hurt

00:54:51.900 by a leader, that they are right to still stand and speak.

00:54:55.500 Because in every situation I've seen,

00:54:57.300 there's a bunch of people that know about it

00:54:58.700 and don't want to say anything

00:54:59.840 because they feel like that's what submission means.

00:55:02.280 And so re-understanding that you submit to the Lord,

00:55:05.080 your loyalties to Jesus first,

00:55:06.960 and truth more than your leader, actually.

00:55:10.260 That's important to get grassroots

00:55:11.620 into people's hearts and minds.

00:55:13.200 I also think, here's a question

00:55:14.560 every church should ask themselves.

00:55:15.580 Whatever your church government looks like, whatever your church culture looks like, ask

00:55:19.760 yourself this.

00:55:20.960 Hypothetically, pure hypothetical, if my pastor was a bad guy behind the scenes, if there's

00:55:25.300 another side of him that was evil and he was hurting people and lying and manipulating

00:55:30.940 and abusing finances and individuals and lying in God's name, do we have a church that would

00:55:37.440 hold him accountable or would he get away with it?

00:55:40.880 I would seriously ask every church to ask themselves this question.

00:55:45.400 Let's, because usually what they do is they go,

00:55:47.240 well, we don't need all those structures

00:55:48.860 or we don't need to have any sort of answer that question

00:55:52.160 because our guy's a great guy.

00:55:53.500 But if he was a bad dude,

00:55:55.560 because maybe it's the next guy that comes in,

00:55:57.000 maybe it's a generation later.

00:55:58.920 If you got a bad dude,

00:56:00.320 are there systems and a culture in place

00:56:02.500 whereby he will be held accountable

00:56:04.420 and the people will be protected from him?

00:56:06.720 And if you don't have an answer to that question

00:56:08.340 with a resounding yes, a resounding yes,

00:56:11.180 because oftentimes it's this, right?

00:56:12.640 especially these big megachurch pastors,

00:56:15.200 not all of them, some of them are good,

00:56:17.540 but their accountability is other megachurch pastors

00:56:20.960 who don't even go to the church.

00:56:23.040 And then they say, well, I'm accountable to pastor

00:56:25.060 big name over here and big name over there.

00:56:27.620 And in reality, it means the people

00:56:29.420 who supposedly hold me accountable

00:56:30.900 know nothing about my local church

00:56:32.440 and my local church that people have no access to them.

00:56:35.140 So the answer is no.

00:56:37.160 If Stephen Furtick, I'm not accusing him of anything,

00:56:40.060 but if someone that big with accountability

00:56:41.960 outside of his own church, was actually a bad guy. No, nobody would ever stop him.

00:56:46.660 The structures are in place. The culture's in place. He is the man of God. You don't like it,

00:56:51.100 go somewhere else. All right, before we get to our last sponsor, I want to remind you to subscribe

00:57:00.080 to Blaze TV. It's where you can access subscriber exclusive content that could possibly get us

00:57:08.060 kicked off the big tech platforms, but you don't have to worry about that when you subscribe to

00:57:11.920 blaze tv go to blaze tv.com use code ally you'll get 20 off your subscription blaze tv.com slash

00:57:17.860 ally and before we get back into it let me tell you about hillsdale college hillsdale is one of

00:57:23.300 the few colleges that my husband and i will consider sending tuition dollars to for our

00:57:29.540 children and that is because hillsdale actually teaches its students how to think critically how

00:57:35.940 to research well, how to write well, how to communicate well, the true history of America

00:57:40.980 and our Republic, our constitution. And I love that you can access all of these free courses

00:57:47.700 online, hillsdale.edu slash relatable. You can make yourself smarter as well, but I love their

00:57:54.020 biblical approach to thinking in academia. They also have a new documentary out revolutionary

00:58:00.400 America from Hillsdale studios. It's narrated by Tom Selleck. It brings the founding of our nation

00:58:05.480 into life. What a great way to celebrate with your children the founding of America in our

00:58:11.960 250th year. You can get your tickets for Revolutionary America, which will be out

00:58:17.080 in theaters May 31st through June 2nd at hillsdale.edu slash revolution. That's hillsdale.edu

00:58:22.700 slash revolution. You have talked about getting threats, right? I mean, I see a lot of people

00:58:34.020 in this realm, certainly not liking you for the things that you've said, but have you actually

00:58:40.180 received intimidating messages, phone calls, things like that because of what you're uncovering?

00:58:47.500 Some, yeah, there's like some threats, but I'm not worried about threats mostly. Mostly when it

00:58:55.420 comes to, to be real, for those who don't know, you're more in the public eye, the threats you

00:59:01.880 get are mostly someone who's just angry and they're just trying to make you feel scared

00:59:05.900 so trying to lash out at you and i'm not worried about that i am worried about threats from people

00:59:10.600 who are clearly unhinged like you you see their profile and you go this person is not in touch

00:59:15.560 with reality yeah that's the kind of person i'm worried about um the one thing i am more concerned

00:59:21.860 about is the two things when it comes to these exposures is and most of these leaders would

00:59:26.700 never do this stuff, but some of them probably would. Um, the point at which the leader feels

00:59:32.560 they've lost everything, everything that's when they potentially become dangerous. When that

00:59:37.920 happens, I don't anticipate a threat. Why, if you're going to actually do it, why would you

00:59:42.640 threaten it first? Um, I don't anticipate a threat at that point. Um, the other one is if somebody

00:59:48.220 knew I was behind the scenes working on an expose that was going to cost them millions of dollars

00:59:53.060 and ruin their reputations

00:59:56.100 because they would be exposed for who they are.

00:59:58.220 If they knew ahead of time I was working on that

01:00:00.060 and knew that if they just took me out.

01:00:02.740 So let's just say I'm not going to talk about

01:00:04.860 all that I'm working on.

01:00:05.980 That's my strategy there.

01:00:08.500 But I believe that some of these leaders

01:00:13.100 have done this in the past.

01:00:14.980 They've killed people.

01:00:15.980 I believe it.

01:00:16.380 I can't, but I don't have the witnesses

01:00:19.940 to go forward with it.

01:00:21.900 Wow.

01:00:23.060 You're doing this clearly based on the conviction that you believe that God has given you because

01:00:30.480 you could have done another series on any number of theological subjects that would

01:00:35.160 have performed very well for people who are like, oh, you're just doing this for, you

01:00:40.620 know, because it's grabby, because it makes headlines.

01:00:42.700 Well, your videos perform well anyway.

01:00:45.040 You already get hundreds of thousands of views.

01:00:47.300 That's me saying that.

01:00:48.260 That's not you bragging on yourself.

01:00:50.340 You already had a ton of subscribers.

01:00:51.980 And so you don't have to be doing this.

01:00:54.660 You're doing this because you feel called to do it.

01:00:58.500 You feel convicted to do it, come what may, on behalf of the victims, but also because

01:01:03.200 you think truth matters.

01:01:04.980 And again, for anyone who's like, oh, he's just anti-charismatic, it's not just, it's

01:01:10.140 not a theological debate, right?

01:01:12.180 With charismatics.

01:01:12.880 We can have that at a different time.

01:01:14.960 This is not essentially about that.

01:01:16.640 And you would be doing the same thing if it was the Southern Baptist Convention or the

01:01:20.180 Methodists or anyone else.

01:01:21.980 These are the reason why I'm targeting charismatics is because these are the people who came to me asking for help

01:01:28.940 These are the victims that reached out and I interviewed them and I was like, it's like a network

01:01:32.480 How are these all connected? How are all these different stories connected to the same people over and over and over again?

01:01:37.380 And and the people who are like, why are you targeting the charismatics?

01:01:41.380 I'm just like it's because you don't realize how big the problem is

01:01:44.280 That's that's all it is

01:01:45.880 If it had been a bunch of people inside the SBC who came out asking for help and they're going no one's helping us

01:01:50.620 and we're being oppressed and we're being lied about.

01:01:52.820 And I would have done a series on that.

01:01:55.520 I don't know the SBC situation.

01:01:56.920 I've never looked into it.

01:01:57.900 I don't like looking into this stuff.

01:01:59.920 When I hear about the SBC stuff,

01:02:02.920 I've literally never sat down and researched all the drama

01:02:06.180 and all the stuff that's gone on with the SBC.

01:02:08.220 I don't prefer to do that.

01:02:10.140 Like I said, rather do Bible studies.

01:02:13.500 So these victims came forward.

01:02:15.280 They were deeply connected.

01:02:16.460 I think it was the Lord.

01:02:17.240 I think God wanted me to do it.

01:02:19.240 So I'm doing it.

01:02:20.620 And, and I think it's having a big impact and it's, it's beautiful to see there is a grassroots

01:02:26.220 movement in the charismatic church where charismatics who are not abandoning necessarily

01:02:30.280 their belief that God can speak today and that God will give them a vision or a dream

01:02:34.120 or something like that.

01:02:34.820 But they're demanding integrity and honesty and truth in both their spiritual practices,

01:02:40.340 as well as in their leadership, safety and integrity.

01:02:43.480 And it's beautiful to see.

01:02:45.620 It's beautiful to see.

01:02:46.680 Those who think you're destroying the charismatic church, you're not paying attention, man.

01:02:52.960 This is one of the best things that can happen to the charismatics.

01:02:57.040 Amen.

01:02:57.780 Well, thank you so much, Mike.

01:02:58.960 And I just encourage people, if they don't already, I'm sure a lot of people in my audience

01:03:03.200 already do, but subscribe and watch these videos.

01:03:07.000 Whether you're a charismatic or got charismatic, so you listen to this show, you need to go

01:03:11.240 watch this probably more than anyone.

01:03:13.180 And you could be a part of the solution that God has and the remedy that God has for a

01:03:18.140 lot of this corruption and cover up culture.

01:03:20.160 And I love what you said about all of us.

01:03:22.120 All of us can be a part of this, of holding our leaders to biblical standards and upholding

01:03:27.040 biblical accountability.

01:03:28.860 So thank you so much for the part that you're playing, even at great risk to you.

01:03:32.540 I just appreciate it.

01:03:33.680 And I appreciate you taking the time to come on.

01:03:36.500 Hey, and Ali, listen, I appreciate you and your work and the clarity and like grounding

01:03:42.480 that you bring to the situations

01:03:43.660 that you talk about.

01:03:44.840 And I know that your audience

01:03:46.740 is helped by the work you do.

01:03:50.860 Thank you.

01:03:51.680 Likewise.

01:03:52.440 Appreciate it.

01:04:12.480 You

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 29, 2026

Ep 1353 ｜ Fake Aliens, False Prophets & Charismatic Cover-Up Culture ｜ Mike Winger

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