Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 12, 2019


Ep 136 ｜ Jeff Durbin


Episode Stats

Length

42 minutes

Words per Minute

194.96652

Word Count

8,271

Sentence Count

479

Misogynist Sentences

11

Hate Speech Sentences

25


Summary

In this episode, I sit down with the Pastor of Apologia Church and host of the podcast "The Gospel in the Flesh" to talk about what it means to be bold in your faith and in your ministry. God bless!


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Jeff, thanks so much for joining me.
00:00:02.660 Oh, it's my pleasure. Absolutely my pleasure.
00:00:05.080 Yeah, so if you could just take a second to tell everyone who may not be aware
00:00:09.780 who you are, what you do, where you come from.
00:00:13.500 Well, I'm the pastor at Apologia Church, a pastor at Apologia Church,
00:00:18.280 and our church came out of a drug and alcohol rehab hospital.
00:00:22.340 I was the full-time chaplain there for four years at a hospital
00:00:25.700 while I was also pastoring somewhere else.
00:00:27.560 And so many people were coming out of addiction to drugs and alcohol
00:00:31.580 and coming to Christ at that facility that it became very, very clear
00:00:35.960 that we needed to care for them.
00:00:38.320 And people were coming from all over the country, actually, to this hospital.
00:00:42.360 And so God was doing something really amazing there.
00:00:44.200 And so we took a huge risk, and we planted Apologia Church at the hospital.
00:00:49.460 And that was about 10 years ago, and so that's where our church began.
00:00:53.660 As a church, we are involved in a lot of outreach in different areas
00:01:01.600 and different communities, public debate with atheists,
00:01:05.680 to different outreach, to different kind of cultic movements.
00:01:10.260 We also have a very significant ministry and outreach in the area of abortion.
00:01:16.300 And so we started End Abortion Now.
00:01:18.160 It's just really a banner over a Christian approach,
00:01:22.860 a very vocal, gospel-centered Christian approach in the area of abortion.
00:01:26.680 We started that a couple years ago.
00:01:28.260 We now have over 400 churches globally who are under that banner
00:01:33.100 and going out and saving children at the actual abortion clinics,
00:01:38.580 offering help and love and assistance to mothers and fathers
00:01:42.640 who are bringing their children there.
00:01:43.780 And we just started in November actually bringing the message
00:01:49.660 to local legislatures across the country.
00:01:53.500 And that started in November, and since that time,
00:01:55.620 it's really been having significant growth all across the country
00:01:59.760 with churches, pastors, Christian leaders, just Christians,
00:02:04.980 mothers and fathers, children going out and speaking to the legislatures.
00:02:08.880 You have so many resources out there.
00:02:11.680 When I first heard about you, which was maybe almost a year ago now,
00:02:17.180 you had been in the game for much longer than before that,
00:02:21.060 much longer than before that, as you just described.
00:02:23.960 And I couldn't figure out, okay, what does this person exactly do?
00:02:28.900 Because I feel like there are like three different podcasts with his name on it.
00:02:32.860 He's got a church with his name on it.
00:02:34.400 He's got all these ministries with his name on it.
00:02:36.620 And then I just realized that you are a part of a lot of different things.
00:02:42.100 And your message is the same, of course,
00:02:44.140 in all of the things that you do, in all the podcasts that you host,
00:02:46.700 in all of the ministries that you lead.
00:02:49.240 And that really is the gospel of Christ.
00:02:51.880 And being bold in that and calling people into a proper theology,
00:02:56.080 which as we know right now is extremely important
00:03:00.400 and also, sadly, extremely rare.
00:03:03.120 So I want to ask you about that.
00:03:07.480 And when you kind of realized, maybe this was 10 years ago or before that,
00:03:12.200 when you kind of realized your role in engaging the culture
00:03:16.400 and engaging people outside of the church and in the church
00:03:19.440 with a gospel that seems to be increasingly rarely preached properly,
00:03:24.580 at least in the United States.
00:03:26.860 That's right.
00:03:27.320 Yeah, so it's really nothing special about me.
00:03:33.200 I mean, what we're doing is not historically interesting
00:03:36.260 in terms of the Christian church historically.
00:03:38.760 It really comes down to worldview.
00:03:41.480 And I know we hear this word kicked around a lot
00:03:44.140 in our Christian communities a lot, but it needs to be understood.
00:03:47.900 And that is that there is, according to Scripture, no neutrality.
00:03:50.940 There is no neutrality.
00:03:52.540 Romans chapter 1 says that everyone knows God.
00:03:54.760 The problem isn't a lack of light or evidence for God's existence.
00:03:58.220 We all know the true God, but we are holding down that truth
00:04:01.840 because we're all broken, we're all fallen,
00:04:03.880 we're all little rebels against the king.
00:04:06.220 And so we hold that truth down and we exchange God for a lie.
00:04:09.560 That's just the pattern of image bearers of God
00:04:12.340 who are in a broken relationship with God, who are fallen.
00:04:15.820 And so none of us are neutral towards God at all.
00:04:19.100 And that is fundamentally the Christian message,
00:04:21.060 is that we're all lost, we're all broken,
00:04:22.720 we're all in need of a Savior.
00:04:24.940 And with that fallenness comes a hostility, a rebellion,
00:04:28.680 and it comes out in so many different areas of life.
00:04:31.640 And so the fundamental aspect of the Christian message
00:04:34.080 is that Jesus is God in the flesh
00:04:35.940 who came to rescue the rebels, to save sinners.
00:04:39.660 And he comes into a world that is opposed to him,
00:04:42.560 and he says things like,
00:04:44.280 whoever's not with me is against me.
00:04:46.580 That's a bold claim.
00:04:47.840 Whoever's not with me is against me.
00:04:49.380 I mean, that's one of those claims that we don't hear often
00:04:51.620 in evangelical churches in the West today,
00:04:53.520 like preach and proclaim, like boldly,
00:04:55.260 like whoever's not with me is against me.
00:04:56.520 That's Jesus' claim.
00:04:57.940 Jesus saying things like,
00:04:59.240 if anyone is ashamed of me and my words,
00:05:03.280 of him that will the Son of Man be ashamed
00:05:05.240 when he comes in his glory.
00:05:06.380 And Jesus comes with a message
00:05:07.620 that actually is very different than you hear
00:05:09.280 in the common evangelical church in the West
00:05:11.600 in the 21st century,
00:05:12.620 where he, when he preaches to crowds of people,
00:05:14.520 thousands of people,
00:05:15.440 he actually turns them away.
00:05:17.740 He says some hard things to them,
00:05:19.720 like if you don't come to die,
00:05:21.560 then don't come.
00:05:22.840 And he says things like,
00:05:23.860 you have to hate mother, father, sister, brother, wife,
00:05:26.780 and even your own life.
00:05:28.120 And that's not like a moral evil hatred.
00:05:30.820 It's in terms of loving Jesus less than.
00:05:34.360 If you don't love him more than
00:05:36.380 the most close relationships,
00:05:37.920 he says, don't even come.
00:05:39.380 And that's, of course,
00:05:40.360 a very different gospel
00:05:41.680 than is often propagated today in our culture
00:05:43.800 in modern evangelicalism in the West.
00:05:46.720 And when you ask the question like,
00:05:48.340 okay, where's this coming from?
00:05:50.220 It's all encompassing
00:05:51.380 because Jesus claimed to have all authority
00:05:54.080 in heaven and on earth.
00:05:55.380 And as a matter of fact,
00:05:56.300 in Matthew 28,
00:05:56.980 that's the last thing of his departure
00:05:58.920 in Matthew 28 that he says,
00:06:00.800 is he says all authority in heaven,
00:06:03.260 and all Christians say yes to that.
00:06:05.420 Well, of course he's king over heaven.
00:06:06.900 He has all authority there.
00:06:08.020 No angels are disobeying him there.
00:06:09.780 But there's actually a next part to it
00:06:12.060 where Jesus says,
00:06:13.040 and on earth,
00:06:13.720 all authority and here on earth
00:06:15.480 has been past tense given to me.
00:06:17.860 And so that great commission
00:06:18.880 is not simply to go out
00:06:20.220 and save souls for heaven one day,
00:06:22.200 which of course that was what salvation brings
00:06:25.100 is reconciliation, peace with God.
00:06:26.940 We go, of course, to heaven.
00:06:28.180 We have eternal life as a gift
00:06:29.380 through faith in Jesus.
00:06:31.040 But he says, go and disciple the nations
00:06:33.080 and teach them to obey.
00:06:35.020 And so the Christian message historically
00:06:37.220 was all encompassing.
00:06:38.760 And if you look at Christian history,
00:06:40.580 as Christians went with the good news
00:06:42.400 of the kingdom,
00:06:43.300 of good news of salvation into the world,
00:06:45.540 they would win entire nations,
00:06:47.740 entire continents to Christ.
00:06:50.160 And those people understood
00:06:51.160 the message of Jesus in such a way
00:06:52.920 is that when I come to Jesus
00:06:54.460 to believe in him for salvation,
00:06:56.100 I'm believing in a person who has a work.
00:06:59.200 And this is a person who is Lord.
00:07:01.160 I mean, the fundamental Christian confession
00:07:03.460 is that Jesus is king of kings
00:07:05.600 and Lord of lords.
00:07:06.500 Now that means something.
00:07:08.600 That means that Jesus has all authority
00:07:10.740 over every aspect of life up into the kings.
00:07:15.100 He has authority over them.
00:07:17.020 The promise in the scriptures of salvation
00:07:19.820 to the ends of the earth
00:07:20.960 also was that the father was giving to Jesus
00:07:24.720 the ends of the earth as his possession.
00:07:27.920 And so when someone says like,
00:07:28.820 well, what's Apologia Church doing
00:07:30.220 in all these areas?
00:07:31.160 We're really just trying to communicate
00:07:33.020 with love, with respect and gentleness
00:07:36.600 and compassion,
00:07:38.060 the message of the Christian worldview
00:07:40.280 and the good news of the gospel
00:07:41.760 in every area of life.
00:07:43.640 So whether that means in the family,
00:07:46.140 whether that means in the church,
00:07:47.540 or that means even in the state,
00:07:49.800 we believe that what's broken
00:07:52.100 in our culture in the West today,
00:07:53.600 say just take our nation,
00:07:54.600 like United States of America,
00:07:56.000 we started off a very strong
00:07:57.380 biblical worldview and foundations.
00:07:58.840 Not to say that everybody was Christian.
00:08:00.700 It's just to say that it was in the atmosphere.
00:08:03.100 There was an understanding
00:08:03.880 that the biblical worldview was the standard.
00:08:06.420 It was the reference point.
00:08:07.860 It was the principium.
00:08:09.140 It was the starting point of all things.
00:08:10.920 So even down to say John Jay,
00:08:13.260 our first Supreme Court justice,
00:08:15.100 when he was pointing to case law
00:08:17.080 and creating case law for our nation
00:08:19.560 as the Supreme Court, as the justice,
00:08:22.600 he was actually explicitly referencing case law
00:08:26.180 from the Old Testament itself
00:08:27.660 in terms of pointing to not himself as the standard,
00:08:31.080 but this is what God says.
00:08:33.240 God's the reference point.
00:08:34.700 And that's critical because in our day,
00:08:36.640 Ali, and you address these sorts of things all the time,
00:08:38.840 and I love, I love what you're doing.
00:08:40.660 Thank you.
00:08:41.320 I truly do.
00:08:43.120 When we are the reference point,
00:08:45.320 as we are today, human beings,
00:08:47.600 we say the basic predominant worldview in our day,
00:08:50.380 taught and propagated in the public school system,
00:08:52.460 in the West is that all of us are cosmic accidents.
00:08:55.700 We come from highly evolved societies of bacteria.
00:08:59.040 We come from the goo to you.
00:09:00.780 I mean, we were once fish that evolved in this purposeless cosmos,
00:09:04.120 and all of us are just atoms sort of banging around.
00:09:07.140 There is no purpose.
00:09:08.240 There is no meeting.
00:09:08.880 There is no ultimate truth.
00:09:10.420 There is nothing good, nothing evil,
00:09:12.100 only blind and pitiless indifference.
00:09:13.920 That's what Richard Dawkins says in his book,
00:09:16.080 River Out of Eden.
00:09:17.080 When you take that worldview,
00:09:19.340 and we become the reference point, human beings,
00:09:22.800 when we determine what is right and wrong,
00:09:25.560 then there is no absolute truth.
00:09:27.420 There is no absolute right or wrong.
00:09:29.400 It becomes chaos.
00:09:30.760 We don't really know anymore
00:09:31.920 if a man is a man or a woman is a woman.
00:09:35.040 Yeah.
00:09:35.200 We don't really know anymore, or, well, we're pretty certain
00:09:38.420 that it's perfectly acceptable to kill
00:09:40.980 an innocent, developing, unborn human being in the womb
00:09:44.440 because, well, it satisfies my needs,
00:09:46.680 because there's no ultimate truth above me.
00:09:48.540 I'm the reference point.
00:09:49.520 It's my choice.
00:09:50.800 It's nothing to do with God and his claims
00:09:53.340 and his decrees and his choices, his will.
00:09:56.360 It's really me.
00:09:57.440 I'm the reference point.
00:09:58.660 So we have gone to a place where we say,
00:10:00.860 we don't want God in his ultimate authority.
00:10:03.000 We're the ultimate authorities.
00:10:04.260 We say, we don't want a theocracy
00:10:05.940 where God is the reference point
00:10:07.380 and his law is the standard, his word is the standard.
00:10:10.140 We don't believe in that kind of stuff.
00:10:12.000 We, the people, democracy will be the standard.
00:10:15.560 And of course, that means that our God is Demas.
00:10:18.880 We are the people.
00:10:19.940 We are the gods of our system.
00:10:21.420 And the challenge with us being the gods of our system
00:10:24.360 is if we're the reference point,
00:10:26.280 then there is no ethical standard that's absolute
00:10:28.820 and it will always change and ebb and flow over time.
00:10:31.820 So what we're doing is trying to communicate
00:10:34.120 the lordship of Christ,
00:10:35.560 the beauty of the biblical worldview,
00:10:37.820 and of course, the gospel into every area of life
00:10:40.760 from the family to gun control,
00:10:44.460 to abortion, to taxation,
00:10:47.840 whatever the situation may be,
00:10:49.320 we say God's the reference point.
00:10:50.880 We're not.
00:10:51.300 I have about 1,600 questions to ask you
00:10:56.780 from all of that because you touched on so many good things.
00:10:59.760 I'm going to back up to the beginning of the answer.
00:11:03.180 And so I have filed all these away in my head,
00:11:06.520 these questions,
00:11:07.060 so we'll see how many I can actually recall.
00:11:09.980 But you said something about Jesus turning people away
00:11:13.860 with the kinds of messages that he was giving
00:11:15.800 because they were offensive.
00:11:17.340 I'm offended.
00:11:18.080 My fleshly self is offended by the charge
00:11:21.740 that I need to hate my father and mother.
00:11:23.900 My fleshly self is offended by the call to come and die.
00:11:28.160 And so in my flesh, I want to turn away from that.
00:11:31.720 And what we see a lot today in churches
00:11:33.560 is that because that's offensive in a lot of ways,
00:11:36.380 because that hurts people's feelings
00:11:38.200 or hurts the natural self,
00:11:40.740 they won't say it.
00:11:42.240 We hear the term seeker-friendly churches.
00:11:44.660 And so we're just going to talk about the parts of the Bible
00:11:47.760 that we think feel good,
00:11:49.700 make you feel loved, accepted, wanted,
00:11:52.960 all of these things,
00:11:53.720 which that in and of itself is not necessarily bad.
00:11:58.160 But that alone, without the call to repentance,
00:12:00.760 without the call to come and die,
00:12:02.680 is not the gospel.
00:12:04.000 So can you tell me, how did we get here?
00:12:06.820 Is it just kind of what you were saying
00:12:08.620 of allowing those of us who are in the church
00:12:11.760 to use ourselves as reference points,
00:12:14.220 worshiping the God of self
00:12:15.380 rather than the God of scripture?
00:12:17.080 And so everything kind of just submits to what we think.
00:12:20.080 How did we get to that point
00:12:21.340 where we're no longer really preaching
00:12:22.780 the gospel in churches?
00:12:24.720 Well, it's difficult to say
00:12:25.920 because there is definitely a theological pedigree
00:12:28.240 that got us to the chaos,
00:12:30.240 the theological chaos that we're in today
00:12:32.440 in the 21st century in the West.
00:12:34.980 I think that if you look at it theologically
00:12:36.980 from the foundations,
00:12:38.000 we don't want God.
00:12:42.080 There is no God seeker, Romans chapter three.
00:12:44.280 There's no one who seeks for God.
00:12:46.140 And we don't like to hear that message today
00:12:48.100 because we like to think more highly of ourselves.
00:12:50.400 But if we don't understand
00:12:52.080 the true nature of our condition,
00:12:53.960 we're not going to understand the glory
00:12:55.980 of God's love and his graciousness in the gospel.
00:12:59.960 And so I think that fundamentally,
00:13:02.160 we're appealing to,
00:13:05.580 you said it,
00:13:06.460 the flesh in people we want to entertain.
00:13:09.300 We've abandoned sort of a,
00:13:11.040 well, a biblical, of course,
00:13:12.400 but a historical view of the nature of the church itself
00:13:16.880 and the purpose of the church
00:13:18.580 to call the world to come to salvation,
00:13:22.000 to obedience to Jesus.
00:13:24.460 We've lost that.
00:13:26.160 And we want really to say,
00:13:27.680 well, no, what success looks like
00:13:29.460 is a heck of a lot of people sitting in our pews.
00:13:32.360 So what do we have to do?
00:13:33.960 And there's even,
00:13:34.580 and I won't mention their name at the moment right now
00:13:36.580 to take us off course,
00:13:37.480 but there are well-known,
00:13:39.360 sort of, you know,
00:13:41.320 popular pastors in our day
00:13:42.980 who have actually said that they've gone out
00:13:44.580 and actually gone to their communities
00:13:46.560 and asked questions like,
00:13:47.620 what do you not like about the church?
00:13:49.320 What would you prefer to see in the church?
00:13:51.300 How would you like your church experience to be?
00:13:53.220 And taking notes on that
00:13:54.560 and then developing the church
00:13:55.800 on the basis of what the lost
00:13:58.400 would like to see in the church.
00:13:59.820 And so now we have churches
00:14:01.660 that are literally built on entertainment
00:14:03.980 rather than worship of God.
00:14:07.200 And that comes with a very,
00:14:09.260 very significant theological confusion
00:14:11.880 about what the church is.
00:14:14.720 The church is supposed to be going
00:14:16.500 into the world to win the world.
00:14:19.980 The church is not supposed to be
00:14:21.460 the hotspot of evangelism.
00:14:23.480 The church is supposed to actually be
00:14:24.840 those who have come into a relationship
00:14:26.580 of peace with God,
00:14:27.780 come to actually worship Him,
00:14:29.700 to grow in Him,
00:14:30.500 to be transformed,
00:14:31.520 to fellowship, to love.
00:14:33.180 And then they're supposed to be sent
00:14:34.320 into the world to go win the world,
00:14:36.480 to go into the public square
00:14:38.100 to win the world.
00:14:39.240 And this gets to your question
00:14:40.620 in terms of the offensive message.
00:14:43.860 If you read the book of Acts,
00:14:45.420 that's the ancient record of the church.
00:14:47.520 When you read the book of Acts,
00:14:48.920 you don't see the kind of
00:14:50.860 evangelical methodology
00:14:52.140 that we have so popular today
00:14:54.280 in terms of creating the church
00:14:55.640 as the hotspot of evangelism.
00:14:57.780 They're going into the public square.
00:15:00.020 They're going and actually
00:15:01.120 being godly troublemakers
00:15:02.540 and preaching the gospel
00:15:03.480 to the degree that
00:15:04.580 the gospel that Jesus preached
00:15:06.720 made people want to kill Him.
00:15:08.660 The gospel that Paul was preaching,
00:15:10.420 Acts chapter 9,
00:15:11.200 as soon as it comes to Christ,
00:15:12.440 it says that people
00:15:13.040 are coming to Christ,
00:15:14.040 the church is built up,
00:15:15.100 it's being multiplied,
00:15:16.060 and it says some people
00:15:16.880 wanted to kill Him.
00:15:18.160 So he was going out
00:15:19.180 to actually argue with people
00:15:20.820 about the truthfulness
00:15:22.480 of the Christian message,
00:15:23.500 and then people wanted Him dead.
00:15:25.200 The church was growing,
00:15:26.500 but they wanted to kill Him.
00:15:28.020 People are taking oaths
00:15:29.120 not to even eat
00:15:29.920 until Paul's dead.
00:15:31.080 I think many evangelical pastors today
00:15:33.120 would look at what Paul did
00:15:34.200 there in the book of Acts,
00:15:35.200 and they'd say,
00:15:35.860 Paul, I think there's a better way.
00:15:38.100 And you see, of course,
00:15:39.360 Peter
00:15:41.200 preaching the gospel
00:15:44.500 and trying to engage people
00:15:45.500 with love,
00:15:46.120 with compassion,
00:15:46.780 but with truth.
00:15:47.800 It says that they bring Him back in,
00:15:49.700 and they're like,
00:15:50.160 didn't we tell you
00:15:50.560 to stop speaking in His name?
00:15:51.980 And Peter's response was,
00:15:53.640 we must obey God rather than men.
00:15:55.400 And then they take a beating for Jesus,
00:15:57.660 and then they go out rejoicing
00:15:59.140 that they were counted worthy
00:16:00.120 to even suffer for Jesus,
00:16:01.560 and then they continue to preach.
00:16:03.300 And I see that, Allie,
00:16:04.240 I see that today so much
00:16:05.680 with brave women like you
00:16:07.800 and brave commentators
00:16:10.120 who are engaging
00:16:10.920 in the public square.
00:16:12.360 And many Christians are like,
00:16:13.460 you shouldn't be stepping on toes like that.
00:16:15.660 You shouldn't be causing offense like that.
00:16:17.780 But what I see there
00:16:18.920 is actually something
00:16:20.140 that more is modeled
00:16:21.480 after the kind of evangelism
00:16:23.800 we see from Jesus and the apostles,
00:16:25.600 where they went into the public square
00:16:27.540 with the truths of God
00:16:29.320 and the gospel,
00:16:30.180 and they engaged in conflict
00:16:31.500 with love,
00:16:32.300 with grace and compassion,
00:16:33.380 but people hated them for it.
00:16:36.240 Now, we can't say,
00:16:37.360 that must mean you're failing.
00:16:39.080 No, darkness always flees from the light.
00:16:41.640 But I'll just say one last word here.
00:16:43.100 Jesus said,
00:16:44.200 you're the salt,
00:16:45.220 and you're the light.
00:16:46.000 Salt was a preservative
00:16:46.960 that stopped things
00:16:47.680 from spoil and decay,
00:16:49.180 and light scatters darkness.
00:16:50.600 If we're not doing these things,
00:16:52.380 I don't think we're being faithful
00:16:53.400 as a church.
00:16:54.660 You talk a lot about
00:16:56.260 engaging the culture,
00:16:57.320 obviously something
00:16:57.980 I'm passionate about as well,
00:16:59.300 but you talk a lot about justice.
00:17:01.040 And it was actually you.
00:17:02.900 I listened to one podcast episode.
00:17:05.280 I don't remember where it was from
00:17:06.380 because I've been trying
00:17:07.260 to wrap my mind around
00:17:08.680 the Christian's role
00:17:09.840 in earthly justice
00:17:11.820 and what that looks like.
00:17:13.260 And there's a lot of confusion.
00:17:14.760 And I'll say,
00:17:15.480 there's even been a lot of confusion
00:17:16.780 on my part
00:17:17.760 about social justice
00:17:20.520 and the difference
00:17:21.180 between biblical justice
00:17:22.360 and what we hear
00:17:22.980 about social justice.
00:17:24.020 And if biblical social justice
00:17:26.140 is different than,
00:17:27.000 you know,
00:17:27.380 secular social justice,
00:17:28.420 which we know it is
00:17:29.260 and all of that.
00:17:30.620 But I probably would have said
00:17:32.760 that I agree
00:17:33.780 with some Christian leaders
00:17:34.980 that I know you
00:17:35.600 and I both respect
00:17:36.640 that said,
00:17:37.820 you know,
00:17:38.180 justice is not really,
00:17:39.560 justice on earth
00:17:40.180 is not really a Christian's role.
00:17:42.420 It's kind of,
00:17:43.420 you know,
00:17:43.680 something later.
00:17:44.360 I probably would have,
00:17:45.500 I probably would have agreed
00:17:47.000 with that at one point.
00:17:47.900 And then I started thinking
00:17:48.980 about my own hypocrisy
00:17:50.240 that,
00:17:50.820 well,
00:17:50.940 I don't think that
00:17:51.840 in relation to abortion,
00:17:53.540 I don't think that
00:17:54.620 in relation to free speech
00:17:56.240 or whatever it is.
00:17:57.780 So there is some hypocrisy,
00:17:59.640 but it was,
00:18:00.760 I was doing that
00:18:01.680 because I thought
00:18:03.340 that I was doing
00:18:03.980 the right thing
00:18:04.540 in separating myself
00:18:05.920 from secular social justicians
00:18:08.200 that were using
00:18:09.200 Jesus's word
00:18:09.980 in the wrong way
00:18:10.940 to say,
00:18:11.660 this is what biblical justice
00:18:12.860 looks like.
00:18:13.620 I thought that I was
00:18:14.420 separating myself
00:18:15.220 from progressive Christians,
00:18:16.480 but then I realized,
00:18:17.800 well,
00:18:17.980 no,
00:18:18.140 I'm just kind of
00:18:18.700 being a hypocrite.
00:18:19.760 So can you kind of help me
00:18:22.000 and maybe help the audience
00:18:23.120 navigate what that looks like,
00:18:24.980 how a Christian does engage
00:18:26.600 justice in civic life
00:18:28.240 in a way that honors God
00:18:29.660 that isn't like
00:18:30.720 the secular justice left
00:18:32.080 or social justice left,
00:18:34.040 but also isn't just saying,
00:18:35.840 well,
00:18:35.940 I'm hands off.
00:18:36.760 I don't care about
00:18:37.320 any of this stuff
00:18:38.140 because,
00:18:38.500 you know,
00:18:38.780 I'm going to heaven one day.
00:18:40.680 That's right.
00:18:41.120 Yeah.
00:18:41.660 So it comes down to,
00:18:43.080 at the same time,
00:18:43.860 there's a little bit of Gnostic
00:18:45.060 and even Greek philosophy
00:18:47.260 and worldview
00:18:47.860 that sort of infected
00:18:48.740 the modern church
00:18:49.580 in terms of thinking of
00:18:50.780 the spiritual
00:18:51.740 we want to escape to,
00:18:52.860 the physical doesn't matter.
00:18:54.120 There's,
00:18:54.420 and that could be
00:18:54.780 a whole discussion in itself,
00:18:55.820 but there is a lot
00:18:56.700 of Greek philosophy
00:18:57.580 that's infected the church
00:18:58.660 in terms of
00:18:59.300 the better is escaping
00:19:00.620 the physical
00:19:01.120 to get to the spiritual,
00:19:02.720 whereas,
00:19:03.280 I just want to say this,
00:19:04.220 Jesus was raised
00:19:04.960 in a physical body
00:19:05.880 for a reason.
00:19:07.580 The resurrection
00:19:08.480 is the beginning
00:19:09.500 of the new creation.
00:19:10.360 God is concerned
00:19:11.560 with this world
00:19:12.340 and this life,
00:19:13.260 very much so.
00:19:14.560 Also,
00:19:15.080 there's a fundamental thing
00:19:16.200 underneath all of what
00:19:17.120 I'm going to say,
00:19:17.760 and that's this.
00:19:18.520 Jesus says,
00:19:19.440 all authority
00:19:19.900 in heaven and on earth
00:19:21.500 has been given to me.
00:19:23.200 That was first century,
00:19:24.480 y'all.
00:19:24.860 That was before the ascension,
00:19:27.020 which,
00:19:27.480 by the way,
00:19:28.000 we all agree,
00:19:28.960 was Jesus sitting
00:19:30.240 on his throne
00:19:30.980 at the right hand of power
00:19:32.480 with all authority,
00:19:33.920 putting all of his enemies
00:19:34.880 under his feet.
00:19:35.760 That is the most quoted verse
00:19:37.860 in the New Testament
00:19:38.560 from the Old.
00:19:39.460 Now,
00:19:39.780 I think it needs
00:19:40.140 to be grabbed hold of.
00:19:41.560 It says,
00:19:42.460 in the New Testament,
00:19:43.460 from the Old Testament,
00:19:44.700 more than any other verse
00:19:45.800 alluded to or quoted,
00:19:47.180 is that he must reign,
00:19:48.840 Jesus reigns,
00:19:50.340 until all of his enemies
00:19:52.060 are put under his feet
00:19:52.800 as a footstool for his feet.
00:19:54.140 All authority belongs to Jesus.
00:19:55.780 So that's fundamental here.
00:19:57.200 So when we look
00:19:57.800 at the world around us,
00:19:59.320 we can't say as Christians,
00:20:00.700 God has no concern with this,
00:20:02.540 because he's told us he does.
00:20:03.960 All authority there and here
00:20:05.540 belongs to him.
00:20:07.180 So any area of life
00:20:08.740 where an image bearer of God
00:20:10.040 is being oppressed
00:20:10.860 or there is evil in the world,
00:20:12.820 we're the salt
00:20:13.380 and we're the light
00:20:14.000 commanded to go win the world.
00:20:15.620 Don't forget,
00:20:16.200 it's the meek
00:20:16.640 who shall inherit the earth.
00:20:18.780 Let that sit for a minute.
00:20:20.740 The meek shall inherit the earth,
00:20:22.440 not the unrighteous,
00:20:23.600 not the wicked,
00:20:24.600 not the people who hate God.
00:20:26.080 The meek shall inherit the earth.
00:20:27.620 We're supposed to pray.
00:20:29.460 Jesus teaches us to pray.
00:20:31.040 He says,
00:20:31.560 pray,
00:20:32.220 your kingdom come,
00:20:33.460 your will be done
00:20:35.320 on earth
00:20:36.440 as it is in heaven.
00:20:38.140 And the question
00:20:38.740 we have to ask ourselves
00:20:39.640 is just how tightly guarded
00:20:42.120 is the will of God in heaven?
00:20:44.360 Pretty tightly guarded.
00:20:45.400 And we have to have
00:20:46.180 that same perspective
00:20:47.020 of here on this earth.
00:20:48.100 I would say this,
00:20:49.220 in terms of not having
00:20:50.620 a long discussion here,
00:20:51.760 but the Old Testament
00:20:53.400 is replete with examples
00:20:54.780 of messianic prophecy
00:20:56.120 about Jesus
00:20:56.940 and about his work in the world
00:20:58.260 that is not simply
00:20:59.360 about going to heaven one day.
00:21:01.000 The promise in Isaiah 2
00:21:02.340 is that God's going
00:21:03.280 to draw the nations
00:21:04.040 and his Torah,
00:21:05.060 his law,
00:21:05.560 is going to go forth
00:21:06.220 from the people of God.
00:21:07.520 Isaiah 42 is a promise
00:21:08.900 where it says
00:21:09.440 that the Messiah himself
00:21:10.520 will establish justice
00:21:11.920 on the earth
00:21:12.460 and he won't go faint
00:21:13.880 or weary
00:21:14.420 until he's done so.
00:21:16.020 And his law,
00:21:17.300 the coastlands
00:21:18.120 are waiting for his law,
00:21:19.420 for his standards of justice.
00:21:21.280 So there's messianic prophecy
00:21:22.740 through and through
00:21:23.440 the Bible
00:21:23.840 that shows that God
00:21:24.600 is concerned,
00:21:25.520 that he is going
00:21:26.240 to establish justice.
00:21:27.200 And here's the question
00:21:27.840 to ask.
00:21:28.640 How does that happen?
00:21:30.140 Well, it doesn't happen
00:21:30.860 by dropping law down
00:21:32.080 on top of people.
00:21:33.440 It happens through
00:21:34.220 the proclamation
00:21:34.860 of the good news,
00:21:35.860 the call to repentance
00:21:36.900 and faith,
00:21:37.440 and people's hearts
00:21:38.120 are changed.
00:21:39.080 They fall in love
00:21:39.860 with Jesus
00:21:40.460 and they love his law
00:21:41.820 and his standards.
00:21:42.920 So that's the first
00:21:43.840 and foremost.
00:21:44.960 But I think it's important
00:21:46.660 for us to recognize
00:21:47.520 that when we see evil
00:21:48.800 in the world around us,
00:21:50.500 it's the call of God
00:21:51.720 that we actually go
00:21:52.620 and we confront that evil.
00:21:54.180 You see it from the beginning
00:21:55.420 to the end
00:21:56.140 of God's revelation.
00:21:58.240 But more specifically,
00:21:59.340 I'll just say this.
00:22:00.240 In Isaiah chapter 1,
00:22:02.520 God actually speaks
00:22:03.860 to his people
00:22:04.340 about their worship.
00:22:05.660 And he says to them,
00:22:06.620 he says that he doesn't
00:22:07.360 want their worship.
00:22:08.720 And why?
00:22:09.700 He tells them that
00:22:10.440 they need to cease
00:22:11.140 to do evil,
00:22:11.880 learn to do good,
00:22:13.040 they need to seek justice,
00:22:14.920 correct oppression,
00:22:16.060 and bring justice
00:22:17.140 to the fatherless
00:22:18.500 to plead the widow's cause.
00:22:20.580 That passage is right above
00:22:23.060 the famous passage
00:22:24.300 that I hope all of us
00:22:25.480 know as Christians,
00:22:26.260 if you know the Lord,
00:22:27.140 where God says,
00:22:28.200 come, let us reason together,
00:22:29.360 says the Lord,
00:22:30.060 though your sins are as scarlet,
00:22:31.140 they'll be white as snow.
00:22:32.060 He says he'll cleanse us
00:22:32.900 of all of our sin.
00:22:34.160 But that's after God says,
00:22:35.960 cease to do evil,
00:22:36.980 learn to do good,
00:22:37.860 seek justice,
00:22:38.700 correct oppression,
00:22:39.860 bring justice
00:22:40.420 to the fatherless.
00:22:41.740 And so the question is,
00:22:42.900 as Christians,
00:22:44.180 does God care?
00:22:45.740 And the answer is,
00:22:46.580 God is unchanging.
00:22:47.600 He's immutable.
00:22:48.420 He says he cares
00:22:49.300 over and over and over again
00:22:50.960 and corrects his people
00:22:51.860 for not being concerned
00:22:53.040 with justice.
00:22:54.100 But there's a second question
00:22:55.280 that needs to be asked,
00:22:56.180 and that's this,
00:22:57.220 by what standard
00:22:58.420 is something just?
00:23:00.220 And I want to say
00:23:00.920 that as Christians,
00:23:01.780 the only certainty we have
00:23:03.300 is when God has spoken.
00:23:05.220 And if God has spoken
00:23:06.120 in an area of justice
00:23:07.240 or injustice,
00:23:08.160 then that's God's standard,
00:23:09.740 his principal standard
00:23:10.820 against that injustice.
00:23:12.940 And so when we engage
00:23:13.860 the world,
00:23:14.280 we have to avoid being like
00:23:15.960 even the professing Christian,
00:23:18.700 liberal,
00:23:20.400 social justice warriors
00:23:21.800 who want to say
00:23:22.700 God's concerned with justice.
00:23:23.880 But when they point
00:23:24.620 to what that would look like,
00:23:25.900 they're not pointing
00:23:26.340 to Scripture.
00:23:27.240 They're actually borrowing
00:23:28.440 capital from the left.
00:23:30.040 And I want to say
00:23:30.660 for those on the left
00:23:31.420 that reject the Scriptures,
00:23:33.140 they don't really have
00:23:34.060 any coherent appeal
00:23:35.000 to justice in the first place
00:23:36.220 because they don't have
00:23:36.680 a workable worldview
00:23:37.640 by which to decry injustice.
00:23:39.920 So I want to say
00:23:40.780 as Christians,
00:23:41.380 we must be concerned
00:23:42.360 with justice
00:23:42.880 because God is just.
00:23:45.040 He always does
00:23:46.080 what is just.
00:23:46.940 And he is concerned
00:23:47.880 with what happens here
00:23:48.700 in this world.
00:23:49.380 We're supposed to win
00:23:50.520 the world
00:23:50.960 with the gospel
00:23:51.980 and as our hearts
00:23:53.380 change,
00:23:54.360 we love God's law
00:23:56.360 and his truth.
00:23:57.820 But I'll just say
00:23:59.080 this quickly, Allie.
00:24:00.700 That's one of the most
00:24:01.420 challenging verses for me.
00:24:03.400 Isaiah 1,
00:24:04.700 bring justice
00:24:05.540 to the fatherless.
00:24:07.600 Correct oppression.
00:24:09.220 Now there's explicit command
00:24:10.400 to actually hold back
00:24:11.820 those who are stumbling
00:24:12.540 to the slaughter,
00:24:13.500 rescue those
00:24:14.180 who are being led
00:24:14.860 away to death.
00:24:15.720 Of course that's there.
00:24:16.960 But God actually tells
00:24:17.940 his people,
00:24:18.500 seek justice,
00:24:19.800 correct oppression,
00:24:20.520 bring justice
00:24:20.980 to the fatherless.
00:24:21.820 And in the area of abortion,
00:24:23.640 that is the identification
00:24:24.660 of fatherless children,
00:24:26.280 people being abandoned
00:24:27.200 by their fathers.
00:24:28.680 So the command of God
00:24:30.380 and he's unchanging
00:24:31.340 is for his people
00:24:32.200 to correct oppression
00:24:33.480 and bring justice
00:24:34.260 to the fatherless.
00:24:36.240 I wonder where,
00:24:38.000 I think this is a little bit
00:24:39.560 where it gets difficult
00:24:40.440 for a lot of Christians
00:24:41.640 is kind of where
00:24:43.020 the government
00:24:43.640 is supposed to step in
00:24:45.100 and where we are supposed
00:24:46.320 to advocate for legislation
00:24:47.800 versus where we're supposed
00:24:49.460 to advocate for freedom
00:24:50.820 from government
00:24:51.680 in certain things.
00:24:53.100 I would say that maybe
00:24:54.180 there's a lot of people
00:24:55.080 on the left
00:24:55.800 who agree with our definition
00:24:57.620 of justice,
00:24:58.220 but they simply believe
00:24:59.660 that the federal government
00:25:00.520 is the best vehicle
00:25:01.800 by which that justice
00:25:03.600 can come.
00:25:04.180 And they have a different,
00:25:05.080 maybe they do have
00:25:05.700 a little bit of a different
00:25:06.500 view of justice.
00:25:07.300 I think a lot of times
00:25:08.100 they see justice
00:25:08.900 as completely equal outcomes
00:25:10.820 guaranteed no matter what,
00:25:12.060 even if that's forced mediocrity
00:25:13.600 through something
00:25:14.380 like socialism,
00:25:15.120 which is different
00:25:16.600 than what I would say
00:25:17.420 the Bible says.
00:25:18.840 But how do we know the balance?
00:25:20.860 How do we strike the balance
00:25:21.820 between pushing
00:25:22.740 for certain legislation
00:25:23.800 that protects the unborn
00:25:25.160 and saying,
00:25:26.660 okay, this is not a place
00:25:27.960 for the federal government.
00:25:28.960 This is just a place
00:25:29.700 for us to go in
00:25:30.360 and share the gospel
00:25:31.140 or, I don't know,
00:25:33.160 is it both at the same time
00:25:34.800 or how do we discern that?
00:25:36.600 Well, first and foremost,
00:25:37.760 the system of government
00:25:38.600 that we have
00:25:39.560 or are supposed to have today
00:25:41.000 did not come to us
00:25:43.760 from a humanist
00:25:44.620 or secularist
00:25:45.480 or atheistic worldview.
00:25:47.200 It was explicitly
00:25:48.240 a Christian worldview
00:25:49.320 in terms of how we view
00:25:50.460 the role of the state
00:25:51.260 and the role of the church.
00:25:52.640 As a matter of fact,
00:25:53.440 that terminology
00:25:54.160 that we often use today
00:25:55.340 of separation of church
00:25:56.340 and state
00:25:56.860 that's not formal,
00:25:58.360 it's not in our documents,
00:25:59.540 it was just something
00:26:00.220 that was understood,
00:26:01.800 it was in the atmosphere,
00:26:03.360 separation of church
00:26:04.100 and state
00:26:04.480 never meant separation
00:26:05.580 of God and state.
00:26:07.260 That idea of separation
00:26:08.240 of church and state
00:26:09.040 actually comes from,
00:26:10.860 lo and behold,
00:26:11.720 the Bible itself.
00:26:12.680 And that is that
00:26:13.740 there are two
00:26:14.340 distinct organizations,
00:26:15.980 the church and the state.
00:26:18.020 Both are to be under God,
00:26:19.580 but both are not supposed
00:26:20.760 to ultimately try
00:26:21.560 to take over one or the other
00:26:23.500 in the sense of ruling
00:26:24.440 one another.
00:26:25.640 They are distinct offices
00:26:26.860 and actually in the Old Testament
00:26:28.440 you have examples
00:26:29.160 of God actually punishing kings
00:26:30.740 for trying to actually
00:26:31.880 take authority in the church.
00:26:34.160 So two distinct offices
00:26:36.420 in a sense,
00:26:37.300 or organizations.
00:26:37.560 That's interesting.
00:26:37.940 I've never actually heard
00:26:38.720 it explained like that.
00:26:40.520 Yes.
00:26:40.840 But both were to be under God.
00:26:43.940 And when someone says,
00:26:44.680 well, what is the role
00:26:45.660 of the state?
00:26:46.220 Well, Romans 13 says
00:26:47.440 that those are God's deacons.
00:26:48.800 Now remember what that says.
00:26:49.680 A lot of times Christians
00:26:50.380 will quote that,
00:26:51.460 and Ali,
00:26:51.880 they'll quote it to you and I
00:26:53.020 as Christians trying to engage
00:26:54.760 these cultural issues
00:26:55.820 from a biblical worldview
00:26:57.600 or standing on this
00:26:58.520 in some way.
00:26:59.780 They'll say,
00:27:00.460 no,
00:27:00.780 the role of the government,
00:27:01.680 submit to those,
00:27:02.980 you know,
00:27:03.340 those are God's servants.
00:27:05.080 Right.
00:27:06.020 And submit to their authority.
00:27:07.500 Well,
00:27:07.760 think about what Paul is saying.
00:27:08.880 He's in pagan Rome
00:27:10.220 at the time.
00:27:11.260 And what does he call
00:27:12.200 the governing authorities
00:27:13.240 in terms of their ordained role
00:27:14.660 before God?
00:27:15.500 He says they are God's deacons.
00:27:17.880 The word there in the Greek
00:27:18.920 is deacon,
00:27:20.020 servant.
00:27:21.260 Really?
00:27:21.900 Rome?
00:27:22.580 Pagan Rome?
00:27:23.880 Caesar?
00:27:24.880 Paul says,
00:27:25.620 yeah,
00:27:25.880 that's actually how this works,
00:27:28.160 is that that is God's ordained
00:27:29.780 organization
00:27:31.820 that is his servant.
00:27:33.760 Whose servant?
00:27:34.580 Not the servant of some other God.
00:27:36.220 His servant.
00:27:37.420 To do what?
00:27:38.080 To wield the sword of justice.
00:27:39.880 So when someone says,
00:27:40.580 what's the role of the state?
00:27:42.000 Well,
00:27:42.240 a biblical and redeemed perspective
00:27:45.620 of the role of the state
00:27:47.020 is that it's supposed to wield
00:27:48.380 the sword of justice.
00:27:49.400 It's supposed to,
00:27:50.180 here it is,
00:27:51.100 punish evildoers.
00:27:52.980 So the role of the state
00:27:54.080 is not supposed to be your mommy.
00:27:55.840 It's not supposed to be your daddy.
00:27:57.120 It's not supposed to be the thing
00:27:58.500 that's feeding you
00:27:59.200 and caring for you.
00:28:00.160 The role of the state,
00:28:00.940 biblically,
00:28:01.300 is to punish people
00:28:02.100 who would do evil.
00:28:02.820 So people who murder people,
00:28:04.540 the state's supposed to step in
00:28:05.580 and to be that organization
00:28:07.600 or that authority
00:28:08.760 that actually executes justice
00:28:10.420 whenever there's a situation
00:28:12.160 like rape or theft
00:28:13.400 or anything like that,
00:28:14.840 it's supposed to be God's servant
00:28:16.180 to wield the sword of justice.
00:28:17.960 Those who are not lawbreakers,
00:28:20.420 the righteous,
00:28:21.100 are not supposed to fear
00:28:22.080 that organization.
00:28:23.840 That organization's supposed
00:28:24.960 to protect people
00:28:26.240 in terms of wielding
00:28:27.240 the sword of justice.
00:28:28.080 But you never,
00:28:29.560 ever have in Scripture
00:28:30.620 the idea
00:28:31.300 that the state
00:28:32.680 is supposed to take
00:28:33.580 the function or role
00:28:34.920 of the church
00:28:36.520 in terms of caring
00:28:37.800 for the needs of the poor,
00:28:40.920 just taking people's money
00:28:42.780 through coercion
00:28:43.640 and giving it out
00:28:44.700 to other people.
00:28:45.520 The state is not supposed
00:28:46.460 to have that function.
00:28:47.300 And I want to just say this
00:28:48.100 just as an aside.
00:28:49.340 Hopefully this will
00:28:49.940 whet people's appetite
00:28:50.740 and get them interested in this.
00:28:52.440 In the Old Testament,
00:28:53.360 you have an example
00:28:54.100 where Israel
00:28:54.900 looked at all the kings
00:28:57.000 of the world
00:28:57.420 and they wanted a king
00:28:58.520 like all the other
00:28:59.240 pagan nations had.
00:29:00.960 And so what God does
00:29:01.840 is he actually punishes Israel
00:29:03.540 and he says,
00:29:04.380 no, they can have a king.
00:29:05.780 Give them a king.
00:29:06.820 I'm their king,
00:29:07.800 but they didn't want me,
00:29:08.980 so let them have a king.
00:29:10.220 And here's what he's
00:29:10.880 going to do to them.
00:29:11.840 He's going to take
00:29:12.480 their children to war
00:29:13.380 and he's going to tax them
00:29:14.820 at 10%.
00:29:15.760 That was a punishment from God.
00:29:19.620 10%.
00:29:20.020 The state would actually think,
00:29:22.240 it would have the audacity
00:29:23.500 to think that it was
00:29:25.020 worthy of the tithe,
00:29:26.920 that it could take
00:29:27.500 10% of people's income
00:29:28.840 and God says,
00:29:29.460 that'll be punishment.
00:29:30.600 So actually God,
00:29:31.840 in that moment there,
00:29:33.140 gives us an example.
00:29:34.520 It's a punishment upon people
00:29:36.080 when they have a state
00:29:37.080 that believes that
00:29:37.840 it has a right
00:29:38.520 to people's income
00:29:39.440 even to a 10% level.
00:29:42.040 And it's a punishment
00:29:43.120 in terms of the state
00:29:44.260 when it thinks it's God.
00:29:46.360 It takes people's children
00:29:47.700 to war.
00:29:49.320 And what we have today,
00:29:51.360 and I'm not saying
00:29:52.280 war is always a bad thing,
00:29:53.500 and war is sometimes
00:29:54.080 a necessary thing,
00:29:54.880 and the state should be
00:29:55.580 involved in those things.
00:29:56.640 But when you have a state
00:29:57.840 that's overblown
00:29:58.800 and it's overstepping
00:29:59.700 its God-ordained boundaries
00:30:00.860 of just executing justice,
00:30:02.500 you have a state
00:30:03.540 that ultimately thinks
00:30:04.460 that it's the authority,
00:30:05.780 that it defines ethics,
00:30:07.660 that it ultimately
00:30:08.560 can control land,
00:30:10.360 property,
00:30:11.280 and the danger
00:30:12.340 of the state
00:30:12.840 that we have today
00:30:13.680 is it doesn't even look
00:30:14.940 to God's law
00:30:15.780 as authoritative
00:30:16.780 to say,
00:30:17.680 well,
00:30:17.860 what ought we to do?
00:30:19.320 The state determines
00:30:20.320 for itself
00:30:21.040 what is right and wrong,
00:30:22.160 and the danger in that,
00:30:23.520 and just think about this
00:30:24.160 philosophically for a second,
00:30:25.820 if we the people
00:30:27.420 determine what is right
00:30:28.800 and wrong,
00:30:29.440 if the reference point
00:30:30.580 is us in history,
00:30:32.360 we say what you ought
00:30:33.780 to do
00:30:34.120 or what you ought
00:30:34.960 not to do,
00:30:35.780 we say what is good,
00:30:36.740 what is evil,
00:30:37.840 then that means
00:30:38.360 that you can never
00:30:38.920 chastise anybody
00:30:40.280 in history
00:30:41.020 for what they chose
00:30:42.140 to do as a people.
00:30:43.420 Why?
00:30:43.700 Because they were
00:30:44.180 the reference point.
00:30:45.520 So if you take
00:30:46.240 the standard we have today,
00:30:47.320 which is not God's word,
00:30:48.660 not the biblical standard,
00:30:49.700 and you say
00:30:50.780 we're the standard
00:30:52.020 and source,
00:30:53.000 then that means
00:30:53.440 that we can no longer
00:30:54.360 challenge the atrocities
00:30:57.320 that took place
00:30:58.340 where there was kidnapping
00:30:59.260 of black people
00:31:00.020 and enslaving them.
00:31:01.040 Why?
00:31:01.680 Because that culture
00:31:02.520 and society
00:31:03.140 at that time
00:31:03.660 determined for themselves
00:31:04.560 that we ought
00:31:05.100 to be able to do this.
00:31:05.980 Now, mind you,
00:31:06.620 this is really important.
00:31:07.940 The Bible actually says
00:31:09.020 in God's law
00:31:09.740 that the punishment
00:31:11.060 for kidnapping
00:31:11.820 and enslaving
00:31:12.600 is the death penalty.
00:31:14.380 So had they been
00:31:15.100 actually looking
00:31:15.720 to God's law
00:31:16.440 in that day,
00:31:17.500 that's the standard
00:31:18.380 they would have appealed to,
00:31:19.420 but of course
00:31:19.980 we're a fallen culture
00:31:20.960 and society
00:31:21.480 and we don't get
00:31:22.020 everything right.
00:31:22.820 There are sinful,
00:31:23.640 evil things that happen.
00:31:24.840 But notice that I can challenge
00:31:26.140 what happened in slavery
00:31:27.140 because I looked at God's law.
00:31:28.380 This should have been
00:31:29.120 the punishment.
00:31:30.280 Image bearers of God
00:31:31.180 are image bearers of God.
00:31:32.340 Color of skin means nothing.
00:31:34.200 If I held to a biblical worldview,
00:31:35.700 I can condemn slavery
00:31:36.940 and those atrocities,
00:31:38.060 but not the secular world today.
00:31:40.060 All they can do
00:31:40.700 is look back and say,
00:31:42.100 well, we think
00:31:42.820 we're more enlightened.
00:31:43.980 Was it wrong?
00:31:45.120 Well, not objectively wrong.
00:31:46.660 Or how about what happened
00:31:47.440 with the Jews?
00:31:48.660 Hitler and Nazi Germany
00:31:50.080 determined at the time,
00:31:51.180 I know it looks like a person,
00:31:52.480 it's not a person,
00:31:53.200 it's a Jew.
00:31:54.020 We can kill them.
00:31:55.340 Well, we don't really
00:31:56.080 have any complaint
00:31:56.760 with that today
00:31:57.360 if you use our system
00:31:58.240 of government
00:31:58.680 and our standards
00:31:59.440 and definitions
00:32:00.040 of right and wrong
00:32:00.980 because we're the reference point.
00:32:03.260 What Hitler did
00:32:03.860 in his culture and society,
00:32:05.380 that was their reference point.
00:32:06.880 There's no chastising them.
00:32:08.140 There's nothing objectively
00:32:09.040 wrong about that.
00:32:10.540 And so we need to look
00:32:11.200 to God's standards
00:32:12.240 in government
00:32:13.140 for what is right
00:32:14.600 and what is wrong.
00:32:15.420 And yes, God does care.
00:32:16.800 And the funny thing is,
00:32:18.480 is that, yes, you're right.
00:32:20.460 Logically, they cannot.
00:32:22.240 A moral relativist,
00:32:23.160 this is the problem
00:32:23.720 with moral relativism.
00:32:25.200 C.S. Lewis talks about this
00:32:26.380 in Mere Christianity as well.
00:32:28.580 There is a real right
00:32:29.460 and a real wrong
00:32:30.480 just in the same way
00:32:31.660 that there is a real New York City
00:32:33.160 and one depiction
00:32:33.900 of New York City
00:32:34.560 is going to get closer
00:32:35.500 to the real New York City
00:32:36.560 than the other.
00:32:37.740 And yet, people will say,
00:32:39.620 no, no, that's not true.
00:32:41.080 There's no objective morality.
00:32:42.720 There's no objective standard
00:32:44.140 to which I or you
00:32:45.180 need to strive.
00:32:46.940 Authenticity is our highest value.
00:32:48.940 So as long as you're being yourself,
00:32:50.420 that's what they will say today.
00:32:52.080 But when they look at something
00:32:53.280 like slavery
00:32:53.880 or look at something
00:32:54.840 that they don't agree with,
00:32:56.380 they say that is wrong.
00:32:58.240 They do purport
00:32:59.640 all of the sudden,
00:33:00.820 out of nowhere,
00:33:01.660 this objective standard.
00:33:02.680 We don't know where it came from.
00:33:04.020 We don't know why
00:33:04.620 there's all of a sudden
00:33:05.260 this objective standard.
00:33:07.300 But it does seem like
00:33:08.700 even the staunchest
00:33:09.680 moral relativist
00:33:10.660 believes in an objective truth,
00:33:14.140 in an objective morality,
00:33:15.940 even though they don't know
00:33:17.320 where it came from.
00:33:18.880 So what do we as Christians do?
00:33:20.780 I guess it's just
00:33:21.500 preach the gospel.
00:33:22.740 But is there a way
00:33:23.660 that we can fill that gap
00:33:26.140 with those,
00:33:26.720 even the people that we know
00:33:27.820 that seem to have
00:33:28.820 that cognitive dissonance?
00:33:30.960 That's such a good question,
00:33:32.780 Allie.
00:33:33.020 And I think that
00:33:33.860 there's a reason behind
00:33:35.140 what you just illustrated
00:33:36.260 so perfectly.
00:33:37.520 And that's that
00:33:38.080 though somebody denies Him
00:33:40.520 and they say,
00:33:41.600 no, I don't want Him
00:33:42.180 in my thinking,
00:33:42.940 I don't want Him
00:33:43.440 in my knowledge,
00:33:44.040 which is what Romans 1 says,
00:33:45.280 and they exchange God
00:33:46.160 for the lie,
00:33:47.300 they can never escape the fact
00:33:49.420 that they're made
00:33:50.260 in the image of God.
00:33:51.680 And they know the God
00:33:52.800 that we're talking about.
00:33:53.980 They know His just standards
00:33:55.440 and His,
00:33:56.240 they know that there is truth.
00:33:58.080 And so though they decry it,
00:34:00.000 no, there's no ultimate
00:34:00.820 standard of truth,
00:34:01.660 no, there's no meaning,
00:34:02.400 there's no purpose,
00:34:03.700 they can't actually help
00:34:05.300 being God's image
00:34:06.460 in God's world.
00:34:07.340 And so though you have
00:34:08.460 someone like say Richard Dawkins
00:34:09.580 that I mentioned a moment ago
00:34:10.640 that will do just what you said,
00:34:12.300 he'll say,
00:34:12.800 no, there is no good,
00:34:13.520 there is no evil,
00:34:14.180 it's only blind
00:34:14.840 and pitiless indifference.
00:34:16.340 Richard Dawkins,
00:34:17.280 you just go through his tweets,
00:34:18.840 look at all of his anger
00:34:19.980 towards evil in the world
00:34:21.300 and atrocities.
00:34:22.360 He can't help being
00:34:23.560 the image of God
00:34:24.440 in God's world
00:34:25.340 because it's inescapable.
00:34:27.440 And so what I think
00:34:28.300 we need to do is,
00:34:29.020 you said it,
00:34:29.780 is go proclaim the good news,
00:34:31.460 repentance and faith in Jesus.
00:34:33.020 He has lived perfectly,
00:34:34.460 died for sinners
00:34:35.060 and risen again from the dead.
00:34:36.200 Come to him for life
00:34:37.280 and peace with God.
00:34:38.920 Receive the gift
00:34:39.620 of eternal life, yes.
00:34:41.020 But we also need,
00:34:42.040 as we're engaging the world,
00:34:43.940 we need to appeal
00:34:45.060 and touch
00:34:46.340 the image of God in them.
00:34:48.500 We need to point to it.
00:34:49.940 We need to get right to it.
00:34:51.160 Like, yeah, Ali,
00:34:51.780 it was so perfect.
00:34:52.500 Yesterday,
00:34:53.300 I went to an abortion rally
00:34:55.060 in Phoenix.
00:34:56.280 People were just
00:34:57.320 vile, Ali.
00:34:59.540 I mean,
00:34:59.980 I'm telling you,
00:35:00.440 the stuff that they were
00:35:01.080 putting on their shirts
00:35:01.920 was so proud,
00:35:02.920 was so debasing
00:35:04.000 towards them
00:35:04.920 and their humanity.
00:35:06.140 And I talked to these
00:35:07.100 three lovely girls yesterday
00:35:09.140 who were at first
00:35:10.080 very aggressive
00:35:10.780 and after talking to me
00:35:11.860 for a little bit,
00:35:12.440 they actually really calmed down
00:35:13.900 and became a very loving conversation.
00:35:15.900 And Ali,
00:35:16.520 what I did to them
00:35:17.400 is as I asked them questions
00:35:19.700 about their perspective
00:35:21.120 of taking innocent,
00:35:22.540 unborn life,
00:35:23.700 they kept saying something,
00:35:25.100 Ali.
00:35:25.280 They kept saying,
00:35:26.160 we need to care for these kids.
00:35:28.380 What if they grow up in poverty?
00:35:30.020 What if they were like,
00:35:31.240 I've helped children
00:35:32.480 in these situations
00:35:33.960 and all these different circumstances
00:35:35.440 and they need to be cared for
00:35:37.280 and loved.
00:35:38.180 And so what I said was,
00:35:39.100 okay,
00:35:39.400 please think about
00:35:39.960 what you're saying.
00:35:40.720 One,
00:35:41.280 you're saying,
00:35:41.960 because they'll be poor,
00:35:43.500 kill the poor children.
00:35:44.760 Yeah.
00:35:45.540 And I said,
00:35:46.640 but you don't really believe that.
00:35:49.320 I can see it in you.
00:35:50.660 And they were like,
00:35:51.180 what do you mean?
00:35:51.620 I said,
00:35:52.040 because listen to what you're saying.
00:35:54.020 You are in the image of God
00:35:55.320 and you know these children
00:35:56.420 are worthy of our love
00:35:57.460 and our protection
00:35:58.120 and our concern
00:35:58.960 and our compassion.
00:35:59.960 So you've spent your life
00:36:01.140 caring for them
00:36:02.020 and loving them.
00:36:03.020 I said,
00:36:03.820 and because you can't escape that.
00:36:05.600 You're made in the image of God
00:36:06.560 and you know
00:36:07.320 that's what you're supposed
00:36:08.000 to be doing with these children.
00:36:09.200 I said,
00:36:09.540 but you've adopted a perspective
00:36:11.040 that yes,
00:36:12.560 we should care for these children,
00:36:13.980 but kill these children
00:36:15.620 in the womb.
00:36:16.420 They don't matter.
00:36:17.500 And I said,
00:36:17.780 do you see the conflict there?
00:36:19.160 And ultimately,
00:36:19.960 what I was doing
00:36:20.780 is I was trying to touch
00:36:22.160 their God-given conscience,
00:36:24.440 but also the image of God
00:36:25.920 and them saying,
00:36:26.540 you don't really believe
00:36:27.300 what you say you believe.
00:36:29.020 And I want you to think about that
00:36:30.220 as an inconsistency
00:36:31.700 that I want you to examine.
00:36:33.360 And so we finally pushed them,
00:36:34.600 pushed them,
00:36:34.980 pushed them to the end
00:36:35.780 of the conversation.
00:36:36.600 And I think we're going to drop this today,
00:36:37.820 Ali,
00:36:38.060 so you might be able to see it.
00:36:39.400 At the end of the conversation,
00:36:40.700 I said,
00:36:40.980 so what your argument is
00:36:41.960 is that we ought to just be able
00:36:43.060 to kill humans
00:36:43.840 in the womb
00:36:45.200 because we want to.
00:36:46.620 And they finally just looked
00:36:47.640 at each other
00:36:48.020 and they said,
00:36:48.960 yeah,
00:36:50.260 that's,
00:36:50.780 I guess,
00:36:50.980 what we're saying.
00:36:52.060 Yeah.
00:36:52.740 And I said,
00:36:53.360 I just want you to think about that.
00:36:55.140 And I told them
00:36:56.020 that you don't really believe that.
00:36:59.160 And I want you to see that
00:37:00.020 as an inconsistency
00:37:00.940 that you've adopted.
00:37:01.880 Perhaps you've adopted
00:37:02.840 a tradition
00:37:03.500 and a cultural argument
00:37:05.380 that you haven't really thought through
00:37:07.080 and I just hope
00:37:07.780 that you start to think it through.
00:37:09.500 So I want to touch
00:37:10.300 the image of God
00:37:11.040 in every single person
00:37:12.540 and show them
00:37:13.260 the folly
00:37:14.100 of unbelief
00:37:15.300 and show them
00:37:16.120 the glory
00:37:16.760 and consistency
00:37:18.020 of Jesus.
00:37:19.340 I love how you explained that.
00:37:21.620 I think a lot of times
00:37:22.480 it's easy to get discouraged,
00:37:23.960 especially in the abortion debate,
00:37:26.380 the callousness,
00:37:27.240 like you said,
00:37:27.980 that we see
00:37:28.900 in some of the arguments
00:37:29.880 from the other side,
00:37:30.980 just the total disregard
00:37:32.160 for humanity
00:37:33.080 and life.
00:37:34.340 And I think
00:37:35.120 it's easy for us to forget
00:37:36.420 on the pro-life side,
00:37:37.800 on the Christian side,
00:37:38.780 that they are
00:37:39.620 those people
00:37:40.420 that are
00:37:41.180 almost demonized
00:37:42.540 the unborn
00:37:43.620 and dehumanizing
00:37:45.240 the unborn
00:37:45.980 are made in the image of God
00:37:48.020 and there is
00:37:48.820 that sparking
00:37:49.540 of compassion
00:37:50.500 because of that.
00:37:51.500 And if we can go into that
00:37:53.160 and reveal
00:37:54.280 part of their own selves
00:37:55.680 to them,
00:37:56.280 that is really powerful
00:37:57.420 and I've never heard it
00:37:58.200 put like that.
00:37:59.340 Can I give you
00:37:59.740 one more?
00:38:00.620 Yeah, yeah, go.
00:38:01.260 Quick one.
00:38:02.880 What's one of the popular arguments
00:38:04.440 for abortion
00:38:05.520 on the left
00:38:06.620 and in unbelief
00:38:09.420 and rejection
00:38:10.320 of God's standards
00:38:11.180 is they'll say,
00:38:11.980 what if she was raped?
00:38:13.880 Now, watch what you can hear there.
00:38:16.040 You can hear
00:38:16.860 the image of God
00:38:18.040 coming out there.
00:38:19.580 There's this hatred
00:38:21.000 for this wicked,
00:38:22.180 wicked thing
00:38:22.740 like rape,
00:38:23.620 the violation
00:38:24.260 of another person's body,
00:38:26.180 somebody doing something
00:38:27.240 with somebody's body
00:38:28.040 they have no permission
00:38:29.000 to do
00:38:29.540 and they hate that
00:38:31.120 and they appeal to that
00:38:32.460 because they're borrowing capital
00:38:34.100 from a Christian worldview
00:38:35.220 because by the way,
00:38:36.000 rape isn't a problem
00:38:36.880 in an atheistic worldview.
00:38:38.660 Adams bumping into each other
00:38:40.100 is morally irrelevant.
00:38:41.700 Yeah.
00:38:41.860 So it's not the atheistic perspective
00:38:44.120 that's giving them that.
00:38:45.520 I mean,
00:38:45.720 if our ancestors were fish,
00:38:47.600 then it doesn't matter.
00:38:48.800 There is nothing ultimately wrong.
00:38:50.280 It might be painful,
00:38:51.120 it might be uncomfortable,
00:38:51.800 but it's not morally evil,
00:38:53.720 objectively evil.
00:38:54.580 So they're borrowing capital
00:38:55.680 in the first place,
00:38:56.400 but here's this image bearer of God
00:38:58.200 arguing that we should be able
00:38:59.860 to kill children
00:39:00.620 and children in the womb
00:39:01.660 because of rape.
00:39:03.180 So what do they use as a basis?
00:39:04.420 They appeal to the image of God
00:39:06.100 in you.
00:39:07.020 You ought to hate rape.
00:39:08.180 Isn't it evil?
00:39:08.900 And you go as a Christian,
00:39:10.480 dang it, yeah,
00:39:11.300 rape is evil.
00:39:12.320 It's a horrible thing.
00:39:14.420 It's evil.
00:39:15.040 Yeah, we should punish that.
00:39:16.480 And they go,
00:39:16.980 so shouldn't we be able
00:39:17.640 to have abortions
00:39:19.040 if she was raped?
00:39:20.240 And you just have to appeal
00:39:21.120 to the image of God
00:39:21.920 and then say,
00:39:22.340 well, wait a second.
00:39:24.000 So what you're saying
00:39:25.400 is that we should put children
00:39:26.880 to death for the crimes
00:39:27.980 of their fathers?
00:39:30.300 Right.
00:39:30.960 There's an inconsistency there.
00:39:32.180 So kill the children
00:39:33.040 because the father's a criminal.
00:39:34.720 Right.
00:39:35.320 And then you have to ask
00:39:36.280 an even deeper question.
00:39:37.680 Hey, what's wrong with rape?
00:39:39.540 And they'll say,
00:39:40.220 what do you mean
00:39:41.000 what's wrong with rape?
00:39:41.780 I've heard this a hundred times.
00:39:42.960 What do you mean what's wrong?
00:39:43.920 How could you ask me that question?
00:39:45.420 It's a violation
00:39:46.300 of another person's body.
00:39:47.900 It's taking advantage
00:39:48.980 of another human being
00:39:49.760 in a way that is disgusting
00:39:51.000 and evil.
00:39:51.640 It's taking liberty
00:39:52.900 with a person's body
00:39:53.860 that you have no right to take.
00:39:55.460 And I'll say,
00:39:56.100 thank you for that
00:39:56.980 very pro-life argument.
00:39:59.000 Because what you're arguing for
00:40:00.700 in abortion
00:40:01.720 is the very thing
00:40:02.740 that is underneath rape.
00:40:04.640 Yeah.
00:40:04.760 And so there's a conflict there,
00:40:06.560 but we have to appeal again
00:40:07.900 to the image of God in them
00:40:09.220 to show them that,
00:40:10.240 that holding their standards,
00:40:12.700 they can't even use that
00:40:13.660 as an argument.
00:40:14.520 But coming into our position,
00:40:16.400 stepping into the biblical worldview,
00:40:18.040 we can make sense of that.
00:40:19.280 You know what's amazing too,
00:40:20.140 Allie,
00:40:20.320 yesterday I said to this group of girls,
00:40:22.600 and I believe this is on camera somewhere,
00:40:24.480 I said to them,
00:40:25.940 they said,
00:40:26.420 you know,
00:40:26.620 what if she was raped?
00:40:28.860 And I said,
00:40:29.340 well,
00:40:29.440 I believe that we should give
00:40:30.600 any rapist the death penalty.
00:40:32.660 The state should give the rapist
00:40:33.960 the death penalty.
00:40:34.660 That's how evil it is
00:40:35.660 from my perspective.
00:40:36.600 You know what they said,
00:40:37.240 Allie?
00:40:37.780 They said,
00:40:38.580 oh,
00:40:39.040 no,
00:40:39.620 the death penalty,
00:40:40.940 you should never put
00:40:41.840 another human being to death.
00:40:43.100 Crazy.
00:40:44.100 And I said,
00:40:44.900 except for the babies in the womb.
00:40:47.520 Crazy.
00:40:48.080 And there was just silence.
00:40:49.860 Silence.
00:40:50.940 Yeah.
00:40:51.960 It's incredible,
00:40:52.860 human's capacity to live
00:40:54.260 in cognitive dissonance,
00:40:55.420 but when you don't have
00:40:56.880 a supreme authority
00:40:58.020 like we've been talking about,
00:40:59.380 that's really the only option.
00:41:00.960 That's the only option
00:41:01.740 when you are self-referential.
00:41:03.860 I could keep talking for,
00:41:05.560 I don't know,
00:41:06.120 four more hours.
00:41:06.920 I feel like,
00:41:07.500 I feel privileged
00:41:08.440 that I've basically
00:41:09.480 just been able to sit
00:41:10.720 and listen to a live podcast
00:41:12.260 of yours.
00:41:13.520 So thank you so much
00:41:14.860 for taking the time.
00:41:15.880 This is an awesome
00:41:16.700 and edifying conversation
00:41:17.960 that I know my audience
00:41:19.340 is going to be
00:41:19.840 really excited to hear.
00:41:20.980 I got a lot of suggestions
00:41:22.000 of people saying,
00:41:23.640 please,
00:41:24.240 please interview him.
00:41:26.400 And I wanted to anyway.
00:41:27.840 And so thank you so much
00:41:29.520 for this.
00:41:29.980 I would love to have you back.
00:41:31.280 If you could tell everyone
00:41:32.900 just where they can find you,
00:41:34.720 the resources
00:41:35.440 that you are a part of
00:41:37.120 and all of that good stuff.
00:41:38.520 Sure.
00:41:39.660 ApologiaStudios.com
00:41:40.680 A-P-O-L-O-G-I-A
00:41:42.400 Studios.com
00:41:43.300 That's where all of our
00:41:44.020 radio shows,
00:41:44.640 podcasts,
00:41:45.320 TV shows,
00:41:45.980 everything is there.
00:41:47.520 Apologia Studios
00:41:48.360 on YouTube.
00:41:49.640 I mean,
00:41:49.960 there are over a thousand videos.
00:41:52.040 I mean,
00:41:52.360 I don't know how many hours
00:41:53.400 of content,
00:41:54.300 engagements on the street,
00:41:55.760 teaching,
00:41:56.500 interviews,
00:41:57.280 radio show,
00:41:57.840 all that stuff is there.
00:41:59.040 And then ultimately
00:42:00.060 EndAbortionNow.com
00:42:01.340 is where people can go
00:42:02.180 to get connected
00:42:02.840 with their church
00:42:04.020 to go out
00:42:04.660 and save children's lives.
00:42:07.000 But more importantly,
00:42:07.840 I think in terms of
00:42:08.940 if you're afraid to start,
00:42:09.960 at EndAbortionNow.com,
00:42:12.220 our goal is just
00:42:13.080 to give you
00:42:13.560 free training,
00:42:14.460 free resources,
00:42:15.420 give you everything
00:42:16.040 you need to do this
00:42:16.940 at absolutely no cost to you.
00:42:18.900 Awesome.
00:42:19.600 Thank you so much.
00:42:21.360 I really appreciate it
00:42:22.320 and I'm sure
00:42:22.740 we'll talk soon.
00:42:24.060 Thank you, Allie.
00:42:24.720 Thanks.