Ep 1366 ｜ Why is Tucker’s Show Whitewashing Islam？Â
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 4 minutes
Harmful content
Misogyny
11
sentences flagged
Toxicity
13
sentences flagged
Hate speech
70
sentences flagged
Summary
Have Muslims actually been super sweet to Christians throughout history? That is the claim that Tucker Carlson's latest guest is making on his show. Also, a couple who used IVF gave birth to a baby that is not actually theirs. This is not a rare situation. This has actually happened many times over the past several years because of our unregulated fertility industry in the United States. So we ll look at this story and so many more. Then we ve got some voicemails on today s episode of Relatable.
Transcript
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Have Muslims actually been super sweet to Christians throughout history?
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That is the claim that Tucker Carlson's latest guest is making on his show.
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We're going to fact check that and see if his claims are actually true.
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Also, a couple who used IVF gave birth to a baby that is not actually theirs.
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This has actually happened many times over the past several years
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because of our unregulated fertility industry in the United States.
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then we've got some voicemails on today's episode of Relatable. It's brought to you by
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our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout. That's
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goodranchers.com. Code Allie. Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone is
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having a wonderful day, a wonderful week so far. God's eternal plan of redemption. Last time I
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checked, which was this morning. It's going off without a hitch. And I don't have to turn on the
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news. I don't have to look on social media to figure that out. I don't have to look out there
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for a sign because God's word lays it out really plainly. What's going to happen? Jesus wins in the
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end. And all of this seeming hopelessness and this despair and this distress and the chaos and the
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confusion electing communists in the state of New York that want to destroy America, the jihad that
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seems to be running amok everywhere in Western civilization. That's all going to come to an end
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as well as every election, every, uh, political endeavor, every single act of selfish ambition
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at the expense of the vulnerable, all of that will end and Jesus will rule in perfect peace forever
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and ever. And we will have eternal joy. There will be no more sadness. There will be no more
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sickness. There will be no more sin, no more abortion, no more murder, no more violence,
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no more war, no more confusion, no more doctrinal disputes. We will be with him in perfect peace
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as the body of Christ, worshiping Jesus forever and ever. And that is our hope. Yes, we have
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liberation from sin in this life. We have patience and perseverance through trials,
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through the power of the Holy spirit. And this life, we have community with the body of believers.
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We have so many sources of joy and the gifts of common grace that everyone else has that we get
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to enjoy the beauty of creation. And we get to look forward to that perfect paradise where we're
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in perfect communion with Christ forever and ever. If you want to know how to get there or how to know
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absolutely for sure, 10 out of 10, that that's something that's going to happen for you after
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you die or when Jesus comes back, there's not some mystery secret prayer. There's not something
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that you have to do to clean yourself off or to make yourself good enough for God's love and
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acceptance. There's actually nothing you can do. You're a sinner. I'm a sinner. We're too sinful
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for a holy God. Even if you've just fibbed once, or if you've committed a long list of moral
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atrocities, we are separated from God. And so that's why we needed a perfect sacrifice for sin
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because all sin requires sacrifice and God sent that because he loves us so much in the form of
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his only son, Jesus, who died on the cross, a death that he didn't deserve to die on our behalf,
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paying for our sins so that those who by grace through faith believe in him for salvation will
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have eternal life. And so we're reconciled to God. We become a friend of God. We have boldness
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and access with confidence to the throne of God. And Jesus is the one that is advocating for us
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and his spotless record becomes ours. God's eternal plan of redemption through Jesus
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is going off without a hitch. He is seeking and saving the lost. There's nothing that surprises
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him. And God uses the mostly unseen and unsung faithfulness of believers to accomplish his will.
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You're not always going to see that on social media, on Instagram, on TikTok, on X. You're not
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going to see that as a headline in the news. So much of what God does seems mysterious or seems
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unknown to the rest of the world, but we get to participate in it. And it's not always going to
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go viral or make a headline. And yet it makes a splash in eternity. Nothing is meaningless in the
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life of the believer because we are all part of that eternal plan of redemption. Amen. So I like
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to start out my Mondays with that, reminding myself of that, reminding you of that, because
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it's really, really good news. And y'all, sometimes we need some good news, especially in the craziness
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that is going on in the world. And I'm not just talking about all of the wars and all the violence
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and all of the scary things. Those of us who are raising kids in this world, we want to make them
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so brave and so strong and so wise and so discerning to be able to not just determine what's
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the difference between right and wrong. That's a big one, but what's the difference between good
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and best? What's the difference between something that sounds good and is actually good and godly
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and biblical? And when we have sources that we have trusted for a long time, when we have people
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that we have relied on for wisdom and insight to peer into the craziness of politics and culture
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and tell us what is true, suddenly say things or agree with things, assent to things that are
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insane, it can be very disorienting and disconcerting. We've talked a lot. I've
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talked on this show and on other people's show about this strange shift that is going on,
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the soft peddling of Islam that is happening on the right. Um, the kind of, I don't know how else
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to say it except for propagandizing of Islam, the downplaying of Christian persecution in Muslim
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countries, the propping up of Islam in an effort to say that Christianity and Islam are essentially
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the same, that were very similar. We talked a few weeks ago about the Tucker Carlson Network put out
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a post saying, you know, Muslims, they love Jesus. They revere Jesus. They regard Jesus as a prophet
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and they didn't say anything about what Jewish people believe about Jesus. But when I've seen
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other people bring that up. It's typically to try to contrast what Jewish people in the Talmud
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says about Jesus. And at the time we talked about that and we made plain, look, it doesn't matter
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if you think Jesus was a prophet, if you think Jesus was a good guy, if you think Jesus was a
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bad guy, if you think Jesus is somewhere boiling in hell, or if you think Jesus was just a mortal
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man who was killed by the Roman empire because of threatening Roman power. All of those things are
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wrong and they're equally wrong. If you don't believe John 14, six, that Jesus is the way,
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the truth, the life, that no one comes to the father except through him. If you don't believe
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John 3, 16, that God sent his only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish and
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have everlasting life. You are equally wrong. And that belief will send you to the same place.
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So I see no need to like, look at the theology of all of these non-Christian religions and say,
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Oh, who is closest to Christianity? That's not the game that we're called to play. We are called
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to make disciples of all nations. That's all nations in the middle East. That includes Israel,
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that includes Saudi Arabia, that includes Qatar, that includes every single nation on earth.
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Christians are called to preach the gospel. And there's one gospel. There's not another one.
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It's certainly not a Christian theological play that is happening to try to conflate
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And in fact, it is to turn a blind eye to what is happening in these African countries,
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in these Middle Eastern countries against Christians at the hands of a Muslim majority,
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which by the way, has been characteristic of the relationship between Christianity and
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But now we're trying to rewrite history. And once again, we see this on Tucker Carlson's show.
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He is a guest, former pastor, whose name is J.D. Hall. And he has decided to give us a new history
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lesson about what it was actually like for Christians and the ancient Ottoman Empire.
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And here's what he's got to say. So that won.
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the ottomans didn't charge churches tax and so when the ottomans were in control of the promised
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land for 400 years in the millet system they didn't charge churches tax israel started just
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a few years ago and their muslim rulers didn't do that during the ottoman period okay so the
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answer is no the muslim rulers didn't tax churches during the ottoman period they were very kind
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to Christians. We'll fact check that in just a second, y'all. If you are tired of the chaos and
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the noise and you're like, I could use a respite from all of that. And I just need a refreshment.
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I need it. I need a break. I need some community to be with some like-minded people. Tell me what
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theologically, eternally. Tell me what is true about the soul, about the world, about the future.
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so this guest jd hall does exactly this song and dance of saying well actually islam throughout
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history was pretty friendly to christians contrasting this to how jewish people throughout
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history has treated christianity he talks about the ottoman empire you heard him make the claim
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that muslim rulers didn't tax churches during the ottoman period they were very kind to christian so
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let's break this down first the ottoman empire lasted from about 1300 to 1922 it was an islamic
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empire founded by turkish rulers that grew to control much of southeast europe the middle east
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north africa anatolia and christians occupied the space so to jewish people and so is it true
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that how the muslim majority treated these religious minorities especially christians
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was one of kindness and that the pilgrims were protected as they were making their way through
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this part or through the empire. Now let me pause and tell you that my knowledge of this largely
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comes from an incredible scholar, an incredible historian named Raymond Ibrahim. We've had him
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on the show before. He wrote a book. He's written several books, but one of his books, I think the
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best book on this is The Sword and the Scimitar. And I really encourage you to read that book,
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go back, listen to, watch that episode. He's not coming from necessarily a theological perspective
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or an ideological perspective. He's just coming from a historical and scholarly perspective
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of the relationship between Christianity and Islam throughout history. And he paints the
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accurate picture of what it has looked like and the conflict and the carnage that has been mostly
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larged and completely originated by the Muslims who wanted to conquer Christians. So specifically
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about this claim about the taxes that Christians weren't charged taxes, well, it's misleading.
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Churches weren't specifically taxed, but Christians were subject to special taxes.
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They weren't just safe because the Muslims wanted to protect the Christians in the ancient Ottoman
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empire. They had to pay an extra tax called the jizya that was imposed on non-Muslims. That was
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the only way to guarantee any kind of protection. It's true that the Ottomans allowed religious
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communities to govern many of their own affairs. This is true of many places at the time, but
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non-Muslims remained second-class subjects. In addition to paying extra taxes, they faced
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restrictions on churches, on evangelism, legal rights, dress, bearing arms. The same is true
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today, but even more so in most of these Muslim countries. This guest, J.D. Hall, says that
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Muslims were very kind to Christians. But of course, that part is just not true. The Islamic
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Ottoman Empire persecuted Christians for centuries, killed them, enslaved them for centuries. So let
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me give you an example of this. Every Christian has heard of Constantinople. Most people, Christian
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or not, have heard of Constantinople. So the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople marked the
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end of the Byzantine Empire. It transformed the city, which was Christianity's most significant
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city at the time, or at least one of them, into the capital of an Islamic state. So for more than
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a thousand years, Constantinople had served as the center of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
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It was named after Constantine the Great, the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity.
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And previously, the Byzantine successfully defeated the Arab siege of Constantinople
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in 718 AD, preserving early Christianity against a Muslim onslaught. But then Constantinople fell
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in 1453. And this was this huge watershed moment in history, and it signaled the collapse of the
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last remnant of the Roman Empire. So when the city's defenses gave way, thousands of civilians
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crowded into the Hagia Sophia, the city's largest church seeking safety, and the Ottoman troops led
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by Sultan Mehmed II forced their way inside and the refuge became the scene of looting,
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enslavement, widespread abuse, including mass rape. Eyewitnesses. We have eyewitness testimony
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from this when Constantinople, this Christian city, fell. And here's one eyewitness by account
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of the taking of Constantinople in 1453 by Thomas the Park. Okay. Then he, Sultan Mehmed II,
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seized one of the grand duke's daughters who was quite beautiful and made her lie on the great
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altar of the Hagia Sophia with a crucifix under her head and then raped her. Then the most brutish
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of the Turks seized the finest noble women, virgins and nuns of the city and violated them
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in the presence of the Greeks and in the sacrilege of Christianity. Wow, things haven't changed in
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centuries. This is the same thing that happens to Christians today in very similar manners,
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certainly in places like Nigeria and Uganda, it is not just the pillaging of Christian women.
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It is the purposeful blasphemy against the Christian God. In all, about 4,000 Christians
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were slaughtered by the Ottomans during the fall of Constantinople. And then on top of that,
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because it wasn't just that day or that period, 50,000 Christians were sold into slavery and
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many of the women were made part of the Sultan's harem. The Hagia Sophia was converted into a mosque.
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So from the 14th to the 17th centuries, Ottoman officials enslaved Christian boys as young
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as seven under a known policy, a policy known as the child levy.
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These children were taken to Istanbul, forcibly converted to Islam and made soldiers or palace
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administrators in total and estimated 500,000 to 1 million Christian boys were enslaved
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So Christian persecution by the Ottoman Empire continued throughout the centuries, culminating
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in the Armenian genocide. You've probably heard of this. You might not realize that this happened
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only a little over a hundred years ago. This was the largest Christian genocide in history. It was
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at the hands of powerful Muslims from 1915 to 1916. The Ottoman empire killed an estimated 600,000
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to 1.2 million Armenian Christians. So no, this claim that the Ottomans were very kind to
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Christians is just not true. Were there maybe individual Muslims who were nice to Christians?
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Were there maybe periods of time where there was some kind of respite of intense enslavement and
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persecution? That is possibly true. But even the claim, the example, the one example that he gives
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of the kindness of the Ottoman Empire to Christians isn't even true. That Christians were protected
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and that they weren't charged taxes. They were charged the special tax that all non-Muslims
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were charged. That is a form of persecution. He also has another evidentiary example,
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apparently, of the ancient Muslims being kind to Christians. He claims that it was the Muslims who
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actually cared for all of the Christian holy sites. Here's that too. They took care of our
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holy sites. They had rebuilt Islamic authorities, rebuilt the Church of the Sepulchre three different
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times over the centuries. They had a law protecting Christian pilgrims on their journey.
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Like nobody messed with the pilgrims. The Ottoman Turks, the Muslim rulers of the Holy Land,
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rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulchre three times? Three times, yeah. Either completely
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rebuilt it or a major renovation one time it caught on fire and they redid the roof. But if
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you've seen the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, you can imagine what it took. All right. Is this
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actually true. We looked into it. In 1009, a Muslim Egyptian caliph ordered the destruction
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of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the church was again vandalized by Muslims during
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the siege of Jerusalem in 1244, during a wider crackdown on Christian and Jewish places of
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worship. Under Ottoman rule, church renovations were usually performed and paid for by Christian
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communities, so it was rebuilt under the empire, but not, as far as we can tell, by the Ottomans.
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In 1555, for example, Franciscan friars renovated the church with the 1808 fire, which Hall
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references in the clip, the rebuilding was funded by the Greek Orthodox and Arminian
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You know, the Arminian community that about a hundred years after this was slaughtered
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So it was actually rebuilt by the Christian communities, not by Ottoman authorities.
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Now you could say that the Ottoman authorities allowed this to happen and okay, that would
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but the reason he doesn't make that point is because it doesn't prove his premise and his
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theory that, or his argument that Muslims were so unendingly kind to Christians. And then in 1868,
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the dome was restored through cooperation between Greek Orthodox Catholic and Ottoman authorities.
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Ottoman approval was necessary because the empire tightly regulated changes to the church
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and even minor renovations required Ottoman authorization. All right. So you could say
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that the authorization was there. That would be an argument to make not as strong, but it's
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completely inaccurate. Again, I would say this person, I don't know the intentions of JD Hall's
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heart, but I see this a lot. You see this with pastors. You see this, uh, with anyone with a
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platform. They know that the majority of people listen to things lazily. You're listening to
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things for entertainment. You're listening to things because maybe they're subversive or they're
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transgressive and you think, Oh, this is so different than I've ever heard before. So it
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must be true. And I get that. I mean, post COVID, I think a lot of people are more open to alternate
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theories of history and politics. And I think some of that is good. We shouldn't just assume
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that all of our formal authorities and institutions have this monopoly on truth. I don't think it's
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wrong to question the popular rendering of a historical event or certainly a news headline
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or something that's going on like COVID. I think that's fine, but like we do have to think we also
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just can't take his word for it. Also don't take my word for it. You should read for yourself. A
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lot of the different sources as objectively as you possibly can ask the questions. Does this make
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sense? Does this align with what I see in here? We do have the hard work of very smart men throughout
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history who have recorded these events and who have collected eyewitness accounts like the
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Armenian genocide, the fall of Constantinople, the enslavery of Christians throughout Muslim
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history. Those aren't just theories. Those aren't things that are made up. It doesn't surprise me at
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all that you have people on, you know, what are typically called the woke right, which took me a
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long time to come around to that. And the left kind of in a horseshoe, trying to make it seem
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like Islam is okay. It's just how things go. The crazier things get, the more of those crazies who
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used to be on polar opposite sides of things, the more they look more similar. I think it's also
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worth noting who this guest is. Who is J.D. Hall? Is he a historian like Raymond Ibrahim and some of
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the other people that have written about the relationship between Islam and Christianity?
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So we'll take a look at that because I think it's interesting and pertinent in just a second. But
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00:24:34.060
so jd hall used to write for or created the website pulpit and pen which later became protestia
00:24:46.780
and we i i very rarely unless it is absolutely necessary have used protestia as a source um
00:24:56.860
because it's such a mixed bag sometimes there will be something that's like oh that is actually
00:25:01.880
interesting reporting that I haven't ever seen someone collect. And then other, other times it's
00:25:07.180
just a gossip rag and it's not fact-checked and it is just completely maligning of someone simply,
00:25:13.520
I don't even know why I couldn't even tell you why. And so they're just not reliable. They're
00:25:19.180
not reliable. Same with pulpit and pen. He served for many years as lead pastor of fellowship
00:25:24.460
Baptist Church in Sydney, Montana, but he has stepped down. In 2022, Hall was charged with
00:25:32.400
the DUI while carrying a weapon. Subsequent reports indicate his impairment was linked not
00:25:37.220
to alcohol, but to Xanax abuse. Officers reportedly discovered a concealed handgun during the traffic
00:25:42.840
stop. Then following his DUI, Hall was removed as lead pastor at Fellowship Baptist Church in
00:25:47.660
montana in 2022 amid allegations of drug abuse domestic violence and misuse of church funds
00:25:55.380
he was also removed from leadership roles at protestia which i will give credit to protestia
00:26:02.060
for doing that and and making the uh making the right move there regarding the church funds
00:26:08.460
allegations hall entered a no contest plea in 2024 and agreed to pay restitution as part of a
00:26:14.280
deferred sentencing agreement. The charges were later dismissed after he completed the terms
00:26:19.180
of the agreement. So this is not to say that this person is beyond redemption at all. This is not to
00:26:26.100
say that everything this person says is untrue simply because they have a storied past. But when
00:26:32.180
it comes to these very recent allegations, like the misuse of church funds that he admitted to,
00:26:38.960
or he entered a no contest plea for, I do think it's fair to factor that in to our calculations
00:26:45.080
of this person's integrity and trustworthiness. Tucker Carlson called him a theologian who
00:26:52.340
writes very clearly about issues of theology. Not really sure that that's true. When you look at the
00:27:03.700
James 3.1 qualification for pastors. He doesn't fall into that. And so I think it's fair to
00:27:10.020
question someone's discernment and their biblical integrity if they were not willing to align with
00:27:16.100
what scripture actually says. James 3.1, not many of you should become teachers, my brothers,
00:27:20.540
for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. 1 Timothy 3.2, therefore an
00:27:25.560
overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled,
00:27:29.400
respectable, hospitable, able to teach. And look, this is not to say, wow, he's so much worse than
00:27:35.740
everyone else. Not at all. Satan loves when pastors fall. And so there's a lot of temptation.
00:27:41.260
There's a lot of loneliness and isolation that comes with the pastoral role, but that's also
00:27:46.420
not to just cover up sins and say, oh yeah, that's fine. We should platform this person and he should
00:27:51.780
be our trusted source of theology and Christian history. Both can be true. You're not saying that
00:27:57.100
you judge this person any more than, than you are saying that he is beyond forgiveness or beyond
00:28:02.680
salvation or anything like that. And then also at the same time, use some discernment and say,
00:28:07.400
okay, has his character, has his recent character proven to be one of trustworthiness and integrity
00:28:15.420
where I should listen to him on major matters of theology and major matters of Christian history.
00:28:22.300
I think that's like a pretty easy, easy answer here. Um, so why is this going on? Especially
00:28:30.280
on Tucker Carlson's show, this just seems to happen a lot. You know, I don't know what's going
00:28:35.080
on in his head or his guest head, and I'm not going to guess like what's going on in their
00:28:39.720
hearts, but I will just say like in general, in general, I will tell you what I think about why
00:28:45.660
there are some people on the right that are like, actually, you know, it's not Islam. They're not
0.86
00:28:50.380
that bad. They don't talk about what's going on in Nigeria. They don't talk about what's going on
00:28:54.800
in Uganda. They don't talk about what is going on in almost every single Muslim majority when it
0.98
00:29:00.120
comes to the nightmare of living as a Christian in these places. And I say nightmare not to take
1.00
00:29:06.040
away the hope and the joy that they have in Christ because these Christians persecuted there
00:29:10.200
absolutely have that. But when it comes to the physical torment of seeing your children kidnapped
00:29:15.720
and enslaved and harmed, like that is a nightmare that most of us living here in America by the
00:29:22.520
grace of God have not had to endure. I can't even imagine. I have three episodes at least recently
00:29:29.400
that we've done specifically on the persecution that is happening in these countries at the hands
0.76
00:29:34.920
of these Muslim terrorists, the Christian mothers who have watched their babies beheaded and
0.99
00:29:42.220
kidnapped and sold into slavery. This is not something that just happened in the Ottoman
0.99
00:29:46.140
empire hundreds of years ago. This is something that is happening today at the hands of Muslims
1.00
00:29:51.400
to our brothers and sisters in Christ. So why in the world, if the important thing to you is the
1.00
00:29:58.320
preservation of the church and the preservation of Christian history and Christian artifacts
00:30:02.560
and the preservation of the integrity of Christianity, why in the world would you even
00:30:06.760
ostensibly be linking arms with these powers. You would be calling this out and say, you know,
00:30:12.820
it's really scary that we actually have Muslim politicians here who are talking about the
00:30:16.420
undermining and destruction of the United States. And they're not only Muslim politicians,
1.00
00:30:20.640
it's these far left progressives of all different religious stripes. But you would think that there
00:30:25.600
would be more people on the right warning about that. It's something that the right has been
00:30:28.920
doing for a very long time. This very recent about face, let me tell you what's behind it,
00:30:34.220
is got to do with Israel. Okay. And it has to do with Israel. It has to do with, I believe
0.67
00:30:39.980
people who have Israel derangement syndrome. Okay. And they see Israel in everything. They
00:30:45.820
see the Jews behind everything. I heard Jeremy Boring worded as, um, like the Jews are always
00:30:51.860
waiting in the wings of people's imaginations when they're looking for a scapegoat, when they're
00:30:56.300
looking for someone to blame. And that's like a paraphrasing of something that, um, that Jeremy
00:31:01.080
said, but it really stuck with me waiting in the wings of people's imaginations when people are
00:31:05.840
looking for a scapegoat. That's a pretty incredible way to word it. The reality is, you know, I get
00:31:11.940
messages about this all the time. Israel's doing this. Israel's doing that. They're so terrible.
1.00
00:31:15.820
I have no reason whatsoever to agree with all of Israel's policies or to say rah, rah. Yes,
00:31:23.720
Israel is like the, the current modern day Israel is the center of the impending apocalypse. Like
0.91
00:31:32.520
I'm not a dispensationalist. I don't have the same theological view of Israel as a lot of Baptists
0.79
00:31:38.620
do. I have a much more pragmatic view of why they are a greater ally in the region than other
00:31:45.080
countries there. And I also just have this logical problem with people trying to turn a blind eye to
00:31:52.180
what is happening against Christians at the hands of Islam in order to direct all of our
0.88
00:31:59.520
ire towards the Jews and towards Israel. It's just strange. There is not a single person that
0.51
00:32:06.360
is soft peddling Islam that is not trying to get you to blame Israel and the Jews for all of your
0.96
00:32:13.780
problems and all of America's problems. Okay. This is not an isolated thing. It has to do with saying
0.52
00:32:20.180
basically implying that Christians and Muslims should partner up and we should set our sights
1.00
00:32:26.500
against the Jews that are the real problem, the real source of violence, the real source of
0.99
00:32:31.280
destabilization. And this is not a new thing that's been happening. This is not a new effort.
0.99
00:32:37.240
Like this is the scapegoating of the Jews has happened for a very, very long time throughout
00:32:43.740
history. Okay. There's something spiritual about it. There's something very, very dark going on
00:32:49.800
there. And look, I'm not here to make anyone happy because I believe, as I said earlier in Matthew
00:32:56.100
28, when Jesus calls us to make disciples of all nations, that includes Israel. There are some
00:33:01.540
people, not all, but there are some super pro-Israel Christians who believe that you don't
00:33:07.640
really need to share the gospel with Jewish people, that God has almost like a separate plan
00:33:12.280
for them one day. I'm not one of those people. Okay. I want every Jewish person, every Muslim
1.00
00:33:17.020
person, every agnostic person, every single person of a different belief to bow to Jesus.
00:33:24.240
That's what I want. Through the sharing of the gospel, through the power of the Holy Spirit,
00:33:28.520
I want every single person to become a Christian and to know the power of Christ and to believe
00:33:33.580
in his sacrifice and his resurrection. Okay. So like you can't pin me as some crazy dispensationalist
00:33:39.280
pro-Israel propagandist. I know people like to do that, but you have no foot to stand on because I
00:33:44.600
have never articulated that view whatsoever. I have a pragmatic view. I have a logical view.
00:33:49.620
I have a, huh, what the heck is going on that suddenly parts of the writer acting like Islam
1.00
00:33:55.420
is okay. It's got to do with the dues. That's what's going on. Okay. It's spiritual. It's
1.00
00:34:01.880
strange. I don't even know if I can put words into why exactly all of this is happening right now.
00:34:06.740
I do find it very strange that after this absolutely horrifying attack on Israel,
00:34:12.200
october 7th 2023 that's when people's compassion started to really fade um for the victims
00:34:20.860
of that attack and for like israel's right to defend itself it's just weird i don't know
00:34:28.520
all i can say is that it's not new it is spiritual i don't really know the why i don't
00:34:34.780
really know exactly what's going on but like i see it as a psyop i see it as a psyop and i'm not
00:34:40.440
going to fall for it. It's just strange. All right. We got to switch to a different subject.
00:34:45.540
Another controversial subject. Don't you love when we talk about Israel and IVF all in the same
00:34:51.800
episode? It just, you know, we don't, we don't, we don't talk about the easy stuff very much
00:34:59.040
on relatable. We talk about the stuff that a lot of people don't want to talk about, but I think
00:35:02.520
is really important, has an effect. All of these things, everything we talk about has an effect on
00:35:07.040
the most vulnerable first. And that includes in vitro fertilization and the consequences
00:35:11.280
of that. There's a story that just, um, came out or it's actually been talked about for a while,
00:35:16.540
but the New York times just reported on it. The story of this family who had a mix up with their
00:35:23.180
baby, they were, um, given an embryo. The mother was, uh, transferred or the embryo was transferred
00:35:30.440
to her and planted in her. And the baby very obviously is not theirs because both of the
00:35:36.900
parents are a Caucasian and this sweet little beautiful baby looks to be black. And so now
00:35:43.740
there has been this custody battle over it. So we're going to look into the ethics of this and
00:35:47.180
the potential consequences of going from what is natural to what is possible using technology,
00:35:53.720
but without thinking about what is actually biblical and good. Let me pause. Let me tell
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00:37:33.580
Okay. I just want to make a correction that this beautiful little baby girl that was created using
1.00
00:37:39.240
via IVF or using IVF to the incorrect parents is not a black American. She is, um, she is
00:37:47.220
South, South Asian. So, um, she apparently comes from two Indian parents. Um, so let me tell you
00:37:54.520
this New York times reporting of the story, because it really is so crazy and so scary to
00:37:58.740
think about. In December, 2025, a Florida woman gave birth to a child who is not genetically
00:38:03.780
related to her. Tiffany score and Stephen Mills. They're a white couple. They went through the
00:38:08.200
process of IVF and score carried an embryo to term that was not hers, which became obvious when she
00:38:14.680
gave birth to a beautiful baby in cocoa colored skin. So she was a surrogate for someone else's
00:38:20.440
baby without consenting to that, without realizing that. Genetic testing confirmed that there had
00:38:26.300
been a mix up. It's very, very obvious. We just put up a picture of this family. She doesn't look
00:38:32.560
anything genetically, like any parent in any way. And the mix up comfort or the testing confirmed
00:38:39.320
the baby Shay was a hundred percent South Asian and other couples embryo had been placed into
00:38:43.460
scores womb by mistake. After multiple meetings with both sets of parents, they agreed that
00:38:48.140
scoring mills would be the baby's permanent custodial parents, but the genetic parents
00:38:52.660
who've chosen to remain anonymous would be involved in her life. Just think about this as a mom,
0.92
00:38:58.420
how hard this would be. Not only that you have given birth to, okay, you've carried this little
00:39:04.940
baby in your womb and you have held her and you love her. This also just says so much about the
00:39:11.340
process. This woman is not genetically related to this baby, not her genetic mother, but wants to
00:39:19.320
keep her. It's not like this mother found out, oh, this is not my baby. I don't love her. I don't
00:39:23.480
want her. Clearly she had created a bond with this child just by carrying her, just by gestating her,
0.53
00:39:29.600
just by birthing her, just by loving her. And she felt so intertwined with this baby that she did
00:39:35.480
not want to let her go. Now understand that also is what happens in the surrogacy situation,
00:39:41.160
which is not talked about enough, although it is talked about. It is unnatural because God
00:39:47.400
created our bodies to bond with the baby that we created. That baby that we created is also
00:39:52.800
supposed to be genetically ours. So there should be no like moral or ethical confusion about that.
00:39:58.440
That bond exists for a reason, even when that baby is not genetically related to you.
00:40:03.900
The genetic parents lawyer, Robert Marcero said as painful as this has been, they ultimately felt
00:40:09.920
like this was the best outcome of a horrible situation. There was no good answer. It was
00:40:13.540
just agonizing for everyone involved. And yes, that is absolutely true. I mean, think about this.
00:40:19.200
If you were in this situation and not only you carried the wrong embryo that was not
00:40:24.040
yours, but say another couple had your embryo, had your genetic child, I would be raising
00:40:33.880
I would be like, yeah, I don't think that I'm going to give away this child that I have
00:40:38.420
just that I've just bonded to through gestation.
00:40:43.540
I could never allow someone unless it was, you know, I understand in adoptive situations,
1.00
00:40:49.300
you make that decision beforehand, but oh my goodness, I couldn't, I could never allow
1.00
00:41:03.680
I can't, I can't even imagine the pain that she would feel.
00:41:06.620
And I also wouldn't want to give up the baby that I had just been pregnant with.
00:41:10.340
The lawyer added Shay's genetic parents gave up their claim despite wishing to keep her
00:41:14.300
because the law grants greater protections to birth parents, meaning a genetic connection
00:41:20.780
alone does not automatically make you the legal parent, even if the child is biologically
00:41:27.520
On the one hand, I could see a lot of people saying, oh my gosh, that's wrong.
00:41:32.660
But then you think about all different kinds of situations in which biology actually doesn't
00:41:37.320
Trump, everything else, adoption, foster care, abusive situations. I'm not saying these genetic
00:41:41.820
parents were abusive at all, but it's not always biology that creates the safest situation for a
00:41:49.720
child in some, you know, extreme scenarios. Um, let's see the courts weigh multiple factors to
00:41:57.940
determine custody of a child score and mills filed a lawsuit in January against IVF life Inc.
00:42:03.620
the parent company of the now closed Orlando fertility clinic and its director.
00:42:07.840
The couple is also looking to track down their own embryos and find out if one of their embryos
00:42:13.040
might have also been implanted in another woman or transferred to another woman is the right
00:42:18.780
wording there, or if they still exist. Oh my goodness. Imagine this. You think that all of
00:42:25.180
your babies are safe on ice and there's really no way of knowing for sure. No way of knowing.
00:42:30.940
Now you guys know for this reason, for so many more reasons that we might touch on in
00:42:35.340
a second, although you've heard me talk about it a lot, I am against the practice of IVF.
00:42:41.020
I think it just places too many risks on the baby intentionally and service of a good desire,
00:42:49.260
But you're saying, you know what, despite all of these risks that this child will have
00:42:53.480
to bear, I'm going to make them endure that so that I can possibly become a parent.
00:42:59.600
I think that that is a disordered way to start life.
00:43:07.680
But I cannot imagine, I cannot imagine this scenario.
00:43:12.580
So I would just say, if you are going to go through with IVF, if you are going to take
00:43:17.700
these risks that, again, your child will have to suffer from, then you need to ask the clinic,
00:43:24.600
every single person involved, what are your processes to ensuring that something like
00:43:29.040
this never happens. What is your process to ensure that my embryos stay my embryos? Those embryos
00:43:35.540
look the same and they're not going through and testing every single one multiple times because
00:43:39.760
that's dangerous to the embryo to see whose is whose. Shea's genetic parents, so who do not get
00:43:45.660
custody are also suing the clinic and the doctor. In addition to their case, Marcero, that's the
00:43:50.840
lawyer is representing three clients who had mixed up embryos at other clinics. He said clinics do
00:43:55.200
not have to report mixups. Clinics in the United States do not have to report mixups. So what have
00:44:04.920
we said before? We said that America and the West, but really America is a wild, wild West for the
00:44:11.060
fertility industry. It is so unregulated. It's insane. And we actually saw that exact wording
00:44:17.800
that America is the wild, wild West for the fertility industry in that case where the Alabama
00:44:23.140
a Supreme Court held liable that fertility clinic that had, I think, accidentally destroyed the
00:44:29.900
embryos of a couple couples who did not want their embryos destroyed. There is a huge problem. And
00:44:38.580
actually the Trump administration and many Republicans are pushing for it to be even
00:44:42.600
easier for people to be able to use IVF and to toy with these embryos. I don't think that's the
00:44:49.060
intention of Trump or the Republicans, but that will be the consequence. That will be the
00:44:53.900
consequence. There will be more broken situations like this. He said that this lawyer said he's
00:44:59.640
representing 26 families in another big fertility scandal, an Orange County fertility doctor for
00:45:04.220
allegedly moving a couple's embryos to an undisclosed location and refusing to give them
00:45:09.520
back. Okay. Kidnapped. Embryo napped. Um, there are other high profile IVF mixups. According to
00:45:18.420
an NBC review of state and federal records, there were more than 300 lawsuits between 2019 and 2014
00:45:25.120
involving allegations, uh, that reproductive materials, including embryos, eggs, or sperm
00:45:31.320
were lost, destroyed, or mixed up. Um, here's another story. Two couples experienced an embryo
00:45:36.180
mixed up at the California Center for Reproductive Health, resulting in each woman giving birth to
00:45:41.560
the other couple's baby in September of 2019. How incredibly distressing. In 2020, a Utah couple,
00:45:52.740
Donna and Vanner Johnson, discovered through a DNA test that their 12-year-old son, Tim,
00:45:57.280
born in 2008 via IVF, was not biologically related to his father. So what happened there
00:46:04.340
is that it wasn't the wrong embryo that was transferred. It was the wrong sperm that was
00:46:08.980
mixed with the wrong egg. How many times does that happen? I mean, these are just what's
00:46:14.740
reported on. And if these clinics don't have to actually report the mix-ups,
00:46:20.320
then we have no clue. We have no clue. Think about the identity crisis that a child could go through
00:46:27.940
thinking, well, not only when the child thinks that this is really my dad, but the father thinks
00:46:32.120
this is really my dad. And if you think this stuff doesn't matter, we are hardwired to know
00:46:36.220
from where we come, like where our genetics come from, where our different traits come from,
00:46:42.040
whose we are. That matters. It is part of being made in God's image. That is why
00:46:47.940
our God calls himself a father to the fatherless, because this is such a deep, innate need in all
00:46:56.140
of us to know who is our designated protector and provider. Where do I come from? And that is why I
00:47:03.120
say adoption redeems a broken situation. Okay. It is a broken situation. Someone got mad at me the
00:47:08.840
other day on X for saying that, that, Oh, are you saying I come from a broken situation if I was
00:47:13.800
adopted? Well, yes. You also come from a redemptive situation that is really beautiful. And it's so
00:47:18.440
redemptive that it's actually like the allegory that is used to explain the gospel that we Gentiles
00:47:23.700
were adopted by God through Christ. That's an incredible thing, but it starts with the broken
00:47:30.000
situation and adoption. The broken situation is that your mom is bravely. She possibly could
00:47:35.100
had to give you up or had to allow another couple to raise you because of whatever situation
1.00
00:47:41.180
that she was in the ideal situation for every single child is biological, married mom and dad
1.00
00:47:47.780
raising you in the same home. That is the ideal. Now we live in a broken world. And so sin and
00:47:53.520
abuse and brokenness and personal choices break down that ideal and adoption can redeem that.
00:48:00.040
But all of these situations that start at conception, surrogacy, sperm, egg donation,
00:48:05.500
and yes, I would say even IVF, all of those situations are saying we are putting a risk
00:48:11.740
on the child in order to serve our desire to have children. Whenever we go from what is natural to
00:48:19.260
what is possible without asking, but is this biblical? Is this moral? Is this ethical? Is this
00:48:24.240
right? Then we are going to cause all kinds of problems, not only in our own hearts, but in the
00:48:29.780
world. I think about Hagar and all of the disruption for generations that it caused when
0.98
00:48:36.960
Sarah and Abraham didn't fully trust the Lord. And so they used a surrogate to have a child.
0.83
00:48:42.800
Ishmael was born. It didn't go well. No lives, no problems, as we say. But certainly again,
00:48:48.380
And going from what God actually intends to what is possible through technology or going
00:48:53.800
around what is natural, it's always going to cause some kind of chaos and confusion.
00:48:59.160
Now, kids born through IVF are made in the image of God.
00:49:09.780
But I cannot get on board with an industry and with a practice that is rife with so many
00:49:17.420
ethical issues that kids are really sacrificed for. I don't think that any kid's wellbeing should
00:49:23.720
be placed on the altar of adult desire, even a good desire to become a parent. All right. We've
00:49:30.040
got a little bit more on this in just a second, but let me go ahead and pause. Let me tell you
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about our next sponsor for the day. And that is every life y'all. I love every life. We use their
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products all the time. We're out. We are not in a diaper stage right now. Of course, we've got
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another little one arriving in just a few months, thank the Lord. And so we will be in the diaper
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stage again, but for the first time in a long time, we are not using diaper products in our
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home. However, we still use the wipes and all of their other amazing products because not only are
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they great materials and clean and really effective and wonderful, but also because
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Every Life is the pro-life diaper company and you don't want to, as far as you can help it,
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support these companies that are supporting abortion and supporting all kinds of awful things
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that we don't want to get on board with another Christian family centered pro-life company that
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you should absolutely support. And I would not be supporting them if their diapers didn't really
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You know, I get angry messages about my stance on IVF all the time. I'm a Christian. I believe
00:50:50.540
that all people are made in God's image and we become people at the moment of conception. We are
00:50:55.500
a unique human at that moment with our own human DNA. And I don't know how to define person other
00:51:01.460
than a unique human being. And once you start defining personhood as anything other than being
00:51:06.500
a unique human being, well, that's when you start to justify all different kinds of things,
00:51:10.580
all kinds of objectification and atrocities because you are arbitrarily deciding which human
00:51:16.660
is a person and which human is not. And then you are basing someone's rights and value based on
00:51:22.100
that arbitrary definition of personhood. I think the morally, ethically, and certainly biblically
00:51:26.560
safest definition of a person is a unique human being. So that means from the moment of conception
00:51:31.660
onward. And so obviously that's why I don't believe in abortion because all babies in or
00:51:38.060
outside of the womb are people and it's wrong to kill an innocent person and should be illegal,
00:51:43.800
but also how we treat embryos through IVF really matters. And I know that there are Christians who
00:51:50.740
have gone through IVF and you have used every embryo. That is absolutely the best possible way.
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If there is no pornography used, which is also very, very common in conception, you got to have
00:52:02.300
sperm, you got to have an egg. The guy uses pornography in order to collect the sperm sample
00:52:07.500
and then they fertilize. That's wrong. Like Christians, that's not even a question. Christians
00:52:12.060
shouldn't be doing that. And so if there's no pornography involved, just husband, wife situation
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00:52:17.440
to create that in every single embryo is, is created, not graded for any kind of special
00:52:25.160
needs, any kind of genetic anomaly, not, um, uh, not used eugenically to decide if you want boys
00:52:33.220
or girls. You only create the number of embryos that you are willing to transfer. You transfer
00:52:38.680
every single one of those embryos. That is absolutely the best case scenario, but this is
00:52:44.960
my problem. No one can guarantee that. No one can guarantee that that is what's going to happen
00:52:50.860
because I can't tell you how many sweet Christian well-intentioned women have reached out to me and
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said, I intended to use all of my embryos to transfer all of my embryos, but I found that
00:53:01.540
I can't have any more kids or I have health problems, or I thought that we were only creating
00:53:06.340
four. Well, they actually created seven. And I just got a message from someone. This was not
00:53:11.540
a sweet Christian woman. This was a very angry woman and saying, you're trying to tell me I
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should have seven children because I created seven embryos. Yeah. Yeah, I am. Those are,
00:53:20.780
those are people. And she said, Oh, well, we donated the rest to science. You donated your
00:53:24.980
children to science. Of course. I don't think that's okay. Of course. I don't think that's
00:53:28.660
okay. Those are people, those are children. They might not look the same, but since when are we
00:53:33.720
judging someone's personhood and value and rights on how they look like, are we really trying to
00:53:38.800
make the argument? If someone looks different than us, then they don't have rights. I seem to
00:53:44.080
remember throughout history, that justification for giving and taking away human rights, not
00:53:49.440
really working out very well. And so I'm just not willing to go down that road. And because it
00:53:56.340
carries so much inherent risk for the baby, because there's no guarantee that you are going
00:54:02.780
to be able to have that most ethical outcome. I don't believe Christians should ever start taking
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the risk, especially when there's so many babies who exist who need homes. It is a good desire to
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have children. I think it's a very natural desire to have your own genetic children, but desires,
00:54:21.660
even good desires, don't justify every means by which we carry out that desire.
00:54:28.140
And so people are very angry about this. I had a woman who, some kind of influencer,
00:54:33.020
liberal influencer, who clipped me basically saying that the same thing a couple weeks ago,
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because we talk about this quite often. And just basically making the argument that I did,
00:54:43.660
there was nothing in the clip that I was like, oh yeah, I could see how that sounded a little harsh.
00:54:47.240
it's just my perspective as a Christian. She called me a radical Christian nationalist that
00:54:52.380
I, people like me are controlling Donald Trump and controlling the government. Wow. I guess the
00:55:00.340
fact that Donald Trump is the exact opposite stance as me on IVF is just further proof of my
00:55:07.260
power. The fact that I have like no influence over this administration whatsoever, nor have I ever
00:55:13.060
tried, nor do I want to, nor is that like a role that I'm trying to occupy. I guess that's just
00:55:18.000
some kind of secret signal that people like me are controlling the administration.
00:55:24.000
Look, I have a view. I have a perspective. I am a Christian. Progressives seem to not be able to
00:55:30.820
see that not everyone is like them. Not everyone is constantly thinking about how to use every
00:55:41.480
single bit of government power in order to get people to conform to our beliefs. Now, I do believe
00:55:48.400
in the protection of embryos. I do. I do. Of course, in order to be consistent about abortion,
00:55:54.700
I do believe that there should be protections for embryos. And I do believe that it is wrong
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how we have completely unregulated and dysregulated IVF and fertility practices in the United States,
00:56:07.480
especially when it comes to surrogacy and how we're defining parenthood i mean children are
00:56:14.780
always the unconsenting subjects of progressive social experiments that's just the case and i i
00:56:21.040
see a lot of christian leaders i get it they're scared to talk about this and it just goes to
00:56:25.240
show for me that we really aren't like we're just very as christians we're not very justice minded
00:56:31.280
like we might talk about justice when it comes up in i don't know the summer of george floyd in
00:56:37.140
2020, but I don't think most Christians even really think about what justice means and like
00:56:41.440
advocating for the most vulnerable. They might think about abortion, but most Christians, um,
00:56:46.700
are confused and very wishy-washy on abortion, especially those that speak up the most about
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00:56:52.220
things like social justice typically. Um, but most Christians really are not thinking in terms of
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00:56:59.580
like, what am I called to speak up about on behalf of these vulnerable children that have
00:57:04.880
no political capital. They are thinking, I do not want to offend. This is the one that I'm not
00:57:09.980
going to say that because there are too many people in my congregation who would be sad about
00:57:14.520
that, who would be offended by that. Um, but speaking the truth and love on behalf of vulnerable
00:57:19.460
children, I believe it's always, always worth it. Jeremiah one five, before I formed you in the womb,
00:57:25.080
I knew you. And before you were born, I consecrated you. I appointed you a prophet to the nation,
00:57:30.700
speaking to the prophet Jeremiah, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. And before you were
00:57:36.280
born, I consecrated you. God sees and knows and forms life inside the womb. Psalm 139, 13 through
00:57:42.600
16, for you formed my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you.
00:57:47.060
I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. And this is one of my favorite parts. My frame was not hidden
00:57:52.040
from you when I was being made in secret. Your eyes saw my unformed substance, my unformed
00:57:58.360
substance. I think about an embryo. I think about a zygote. I think about a baby in those earliest,
00:58:05.320
earliest moments when most people, they look at that and they're like, well, that can't be human
00:58:08.980
because it doesn't look enough like me because it's not a toddler or it's not an adult. God sees
00:58:14.520
the unformed substance. He is knitting that together. He is creating it far be it from us to
00:58:19.980
do anything to purposely risk that little baby's life or to denigrate his or her value. Psalm 127,
00:58:27.600
seven, three, behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb, a reward,
00:58:33.120
not a right, not an ends justify the means right that we are entitled to, but a gracious gift
00:58:40.340
that we are called to receive and steward for God's glory. All right. We got some voicemails
00:58:47.540
to get to. So let me go ahead. I'll do our last sponsor and then we'll get into our voicemails.
00:58:52.380
That last sponsor is Good Ranchers. Love Good Ranchers. We eat Good Ranchers almost every night
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in the stucky home because it's just so versatile. It's so good. I love knowing that I am supporting
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American farms and farmers. You know, I don't know if you've seen this, but a lot of the
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meat that we're seeing in grocery stores, they have little signals on there that saying like,
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don't worry, this is halal. Like this is, uh, this cow was slaughtered and you know,
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this meat was created in a way that aligns with Islamic regulations for livestock killing.
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Well, okay. I just really like knowing that my farmers and that my ranchers, that they love
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America and that they're putting America first. I love the meat companies. I used to be Christian
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family centered, God honoring America first, especially in this 250th birthday of the United
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code Allie. All right, now we're going to get to voicemails. I'm not sure if we'll have time for
01:00:13.900
one or two. Let's go ahead and play voicemail one. Hey, Allie, this is Riley. I was wondering
01:00:47.900
yeah well thank you so much for your question and i'm so sorry um i just want you to know that
01:00:56.720
those babies mattered and they were made in god's image and that it might seem like everyone around
01:01:03.280
you like they forget or that they um move on and you never will you'll never forget those babies and
01:01:15.120
I believe just in pregnancy through how our bodies interact with those new cells that
01:01:21.200
are created and those new babies that are created.
01:01:23.840
Science shows that that stays in our mind and our bodies forever, but also just in your
01:01:28.660
heart and you will get to see them again one day.
01:01:33.140
That is like the hope of glory and the hope of heaven.
01:01:35.640
Not only that we get to be with Jesus forever and ever, and there will be no more miscarriage
01:01:40.220
anymore, but also that we will be reunited with those that we love, those that have gone before
01:01:44.780
us who were younger than us and never got to take their first breath. And those who went before us,
01:01:49.800
our grandparents, our great grandparents, parents that we miss so much, like that is the hope of
01:01:56.320
the resurrection and the hope of the cross that like, you will get to see those babies one day.
01:02:02.920
And I understand for a lot of women, like there is fear around getting pregnant again,
01:02:08.260
because of those losses. And I think that's completely understandable. And yet Philippians
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four, six tells us something that to me just is like so radical. And that is, do not be anxious
01:02:20.080
about anything. Do not be anxious about anything. It's like, how is that even possible? But in
01:02:26.660
everything with prayer and petition with Thanksgiving, present your requests to God
01:02:32.020
and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your
01:02:35.200
minds in Christ Jesus. Wow. That is such a great promise. So it's not just that we are called to
01:02:41.160
not be anxious and to just sit there and just, okay, okay. I'm not going to be anxious. I'm not
01:02:45.580
going to be anxious, but to exchange it for something else, do something active with that
01:02:50.000
anxiety, lay it before the Lord. And instead pray, petition him, Lord, I need this Lord. I need you
01:02:57.840
Lord protect this next baby, protect me, protect our family, protect our marriage.
01:03:02.940
and thank you so much for all that you have done for us.
01:03:16.680
he says, okay, in exchange for that, I give you peace.
01:03:30.660
a peace that surpasses, transcends our understanding, logical reasoning, rationality.
01:03:39.360
And so that's just what I encourage, not just you, but all moms out there.
01:03:43.140
And not only those who have endured miscarriage, because all of us have to deal with the potential
01:03:51.600
And God tells us something really crazy, which is don't be anxious about anything.
01:03:57.940
say, just pray that the Lord would bless you with more and more gifts of children. Um, and that you
01:04:04.640
would steward your desire for children in any way that he presents to you, even if that's through
01:04:09.160
volunteering through ministry at your church, and you have a lot of love to give. And the Lord wants
01:04:14.660
to use that to glorify him and to better the lives of the other people that are around you.
01:04:21.020
All right. That's all we've got time for today. Thank you guys so much for listening. We will be