Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 1391 ｜ 3 Reasons Lindsay Clancy Is Absolutely Guilty

00:00:00.000 Here's a question that I have for Lindsay's defenders.

00:00:03.720 Would you give all of these excuses to Lindsay

00:00:06.160 if she hadn't killed her kids, but your kids?

00:00:08.440 She had the exact same story, the same background,

00:00:10.620 the same struggle with mental health,

00:00:11.900 the same struggle with all of these drugs that she was on, 0.97

00:00:14.340 but she killed your kids.

00:00:15.940 Would you say, eh, she's probably just going through a hard time.

00:00:19.040 She was struggling.

00:00:19.880 We need to raise more awareness about this 1.00

00:00:21.520 and she shouldn't go to prison. 0.99

00:00:22.720 If so, that's even just beyond where I can reach you.

00:00:27.620 Empathy-based justice is not justice at all. It's partiality, which God calls evil.

00:00:44.740 Hey, y'all. Welcome to Relatable. Happy Wednesday. Wow. What a week. What a week in our justice

00:00:50.240 system. The next couple of weeks, we're going to have especially a lot to talk about. We always

00:00:55.020 have a lot to talk about. But of course, next week marks one year since our friend Charlie Kirk

00:01:00.740 was assassinated. That is also part of an update that we will give later in today's episode.

00:01:07.440 I know it's a Wednesday, and typically I give this reminder on Mondays that God's eternal plan

00:01:12.440 of redemption is going off without a hitch. But I feel like I need to be reminded daily,

00:01:18.380 sometimes more than daily, that God is completely sovereign, that he is the perfect judge,

00:01:23.080 that he never gets any verdict wrong. He's never wondering what the truth is or what really went

00:01:27.820 on. He is not ever mistaken when it comes to righteousness and truth and justice. And we can

00:01:36.680 look forward to that day where we get to live in that reality forever. Right now, we still get to

00:01:42.660 enjoy a really good justice system. And that's something that we're thankful for, that it is

00:01:48.460 modeled after in large part, the old Testament law giving, you have rights as the accused,

00:01:54.020 you have rights as the accuser. And even when we really don't like the accused or the accuser,

00:02:00.480 we are thankful. We're thankful for that kind of setup in that kind of system. And so

00:02:04.720 pray that justice, earthly justice will prevail because despite how fallible and imperfect we are

00:02:12.380 as unwise as we can be as humans, God has entrusted this responsibility of law giving

00:02:19.960 and law enforcement and judgment to human beings, human systems, and governments.

00:02:25.760 I've seen kind of a lot of people say, well, it's not our job to judge.

00:02:29.720 Yes, of course it's our job to judge.

00:02:31.540 We see that modeled in the Old Testament, but we also see that reiterated in Romans 13,

00:02:36.020 that the government has actually been instituted by God to do justice, to punish the wrongdoer,

00:02:41.680 to protect the innocent, to wield the sword against the evildoer. And so we just pray this

00:02:48.540 week that justice would be done, that wisdom would shine through because when justice is done

00:02:54.000 on behalf of the innocent, that's something that glorifies God. And it's also something that should

00:02:59.140 make us thankful as Christians. Now, if you feel like you are just wading through absolute insanity

00:03:04.900 and it is weighing you down and you feel burdened by the world, specifically as women, I think that

00:03:09.740 this has been like a hard look at the state of womanhood in America over the past couple of

00:03:15.180 weeks as we've been talking about the reactions to the Lindsay Clancy trial. It seems like so

00:03:19.880 many groups are just averse to impartiality, the impartiality that God calls us to when we're

00:03:25.780 making judgments. And so if you're like, okay, I need to be around sanity. I need to be around

00:03:30.540 like-minded women. I need to be reminded that we can stand on the truth of God and that his

00:03:36.380 eternal plan of redemption really is going off without a hitch i invite you to share the arrows

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00:03:47.680 invite biblical truth speakers to speak at this conference everyone who works with me can tell

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00:04:01.440 biblical encouragement and teaching possible and that's why we have rosaria butterfield

00:04:05.040 Kosti Hinn, Alisa Childers, Natasha Crane, Audrey Brogey, Grace Santa Castle, Barry,

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00:04:16.520 in every sphere, in the domestic sphere, in our personal lives, in our friendships,

00:04:22.760 in the work that we are called to do. Shane and Shane will be leading us in worship, I promise you.

00:04:27.280 This will be a time of rejuvenation and refreshment that you will be so grateful for.

00:04:32.380 So go to share the arrows.com. Get your tickets today. It's brought to you by our friends at

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00:04:57.580 All right, let's get into today's episode. So reminder that sanity exists, that God's

00:05:03.000 sovereignty exists as we delve into the craziness of the Lindsay Clancy, um, trial right now,

00:05:09.780 as I'm recording this, as I'm recording this, we are still awaiting a verdict and we weighed

00:05:15.920 whether or not we should even talk about it. Um, without the verdict, we're recording this

00:05:21.620 on Tuesday. This comes out on Wednesday, but all of the things that we're talking about today

00:05:26.400 are so important with or without the verdict regardless of the verdict all of these points

00:05:32.140 that we're going through today we have not yet discussed and really need a lot of clarity

00:05:36.920 especially for this christian women audience now as of tuesday morning as we're recording after

00:05:44.820 almost 18 hours of deliberation the jury told the judge that they were deadlocked they could not

00:05:50.700 reach a decision but judge sullivan just told them to keep deliberating so the judge said to

00:05:55.440 the jury this i've got your question and the question is after many hours of deliberation

00:05:59.100 we are able to come to it we are unable to come to a unanimous decision and he says look i brought

00:06:05.640 you back out because i know this was a long trial 80 witnesses 300 exhibits but because of that i'm

00:06:12.000 going to ask you to go back out keeping in mind all of the instructions i gave you to go out and

00:06:17.440 continue your deliberation at this time so basically they're like look boss i don't know

00:06:24.340 I don't know the answer to this. I don't know how to figure this out. And he's like,

00:06:29.020 you got to go back and try. And so they're working this out. I really wish I were in this jury. This

00:06:35.680 would be fascinating. It'd be fascinating to be able to hear the discussions and everything that,

00:06:41.220 everything that goes into that. So that's where we are right now. That in itself is a victory for

00:06:48.320 the defense, that he has been able to convince the jury that it is debatable whether or not

00:06:56.220 his client is criminally responsible for murdering her children after she admitted to doing so.

00:07:04.240 That's pretty incredible that he has caused this much doubt and this much deliberation that it's

00:07:10.380 taking them days to even decide. You could also see this in a more optimistic light on our side,

00:07:16.600 those of us who do think that she is criminally liable, that, okay, at least it's not unanimous

00:07:23.440 in favor of Lindsay. Obviously, there is some push and pull, some tug of war going on between

00:07:30.160 these different jurors about really, maybe not what happened, but how responsible she is.

00:07:37.040 Now, as a reminder about the arguments, the prosecutors argued that Lindsay Clancy 0.98

00:07:42.880 carefully planned the killings that she remained legally responsible for her actions despite her 0.82

00:07:48.620 mental illness they go through how she planned all of this the steps that she took the uh deliberate

00:07:55.740 purposing and planning of every step of carrying out the execution of her children and then the

00:08:03.380 defense say actually she was suffering postpartum psychosis which was not actually a diagnosis that

00:08:09.520 she had, but that's what they are arguing. She had terrible medical care and all of that induced

00:08:15.340 this, which is totally out of character for her. Um, and she should not be found criminally

00:08:21.820 responsible. I really encourage you, especially to go back and listen to last week's episode.

00:08:27.240 We've done a few, but last week's episode, I talk about how my own mind and perspective has shifted

00:08:34.140 on this. Not that I ever saw her as not responsible, not that I ever saw her as the victim in this

00:08:41.060 case. I've said from the very beginning, the children are the victims in this case, and we

00:08:45.440 cannot lose sight of that. But I originally placed a lot of emphasis on these SSRIs and these other 0.96

00:08:53.380 kinds of drugs that are meant to help with sleeping and psychosis, or actually not even

00:08:59.000 psychosis, but depression and mood disorders and things like that come to find out as we continue

00:09:04.180 to watch this trial, she actually wasn't taking these drugs reliably. Um, and so I have, I have

00:09:12.300 shifted away from emphasizing the importance of those drugs in the role of this murder and have

00:09:17.960 instead looked at all of the planning and the purposeful steps she took to ensure that she could

00:09:23.660 strangle her children in private. Now, during the closing arguments, Clancy's attorney, Kevin

00:09:30.220 Reddington, who has turned into on TikTok, this like women's rights champion. I have no idea what

00:09:37.260 his background is. I don't know if any of these TikTokers know what his background is. He's just 1.00

00:09:41.100 doing his job. Um, but he claimed in his closing arguments that she has a darn good mother who had 0.98

00:09:48.340 never done anything wrong in her life. 0.96

00:09:51.060 Saw one. 0.99

00:09:52.040 This young lady

00:09:52.820 did nothing wrong in her life. 0.56

00:09:59.420 She was a nurse,

00:10:01.320 a daughter,

00:10:02.620 a wife, 0.99

00:10:04.840 and a darn good mother. 0.99

00:10:08.220 All right. 0.99

00:10:09.380 To be fair,

00:10:10.360 I understand what point he's trying to make.

00:10:12.260 He's trying to say up until now,

00:10:14.320 she had a spotless record.

00:10:15.820 She had been perfect.

00:10:16.800 Even Patrick Clancy testified

00:10:18.100 that she had been a good mom. That's the point that he's trying to make. But it's a ridiculous

00:10:23.720 statement to say. This is a woman who, again, trigger warning, she took her children down 0.99

00:10:30.120 one by one into the basement, faced them down, overpowered them as they struggled,

00:10:37.480 the injuries especially to the three-year-old boy demonstrate, and she strangled them with

00:10:44.040 exercise bands for the three to five minutes that is required to kill someone in this way.

00:10:50.760 Okay. And she did this after asking Patrick Clancy, her husband to go run two errands.

00:10:58.240 And apparently earlier that day, she had been researching the distance to these restaurants,

00:11:03.720 the distance to the pharmacy to supposedly to, um, I assume see if she had enough time to

00:11:10.960 complete this task. Okay. So to say that this woman never did anything wrong in her life and

00:11:17.200 that she was a darn good mother, those statements have to be interpreted in light of how she ended 0.57

00:11:22.640 her children's life. And that's why it's ridiculous. I might kind of understand the 1.00

00:11:27.140 spirit of what he is trying to argue, but that's just too far. I mean, that, that elicits a guffaw

00:11:33.300 from anyone, even if you think that she was someone who did this in some kind of, you know,

00:11:39.980 psychosis-induced fit. All right. We've got more on this in just a second. Let me go ahead and

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00:12:57.060 So many people are pointing out the composition of the jury when it comes to gender. And I wish

00:13:03.840 this is not something that we even had to think about, but apparently we do because when you look

00:13:08.960 at support of Lindsay Clancy online, it is mostly women, largely women who are on TikTok, who are

00:13:15.420 on Instagram, who are saying you need to have compassion for this woman. And I know this because

00:13:21.020 I see it on my timeline and I see it in my DMS. At one point I thought it was pretty much like a

00:13:27.800 left versus right issue. And I was like, okay, it makes sense to me that people who are for abortion

00:13:34.260 would also dehumanize kids outside of the womb because the womb and birth is just kind of an

00:13:39.440 arbitrary standard for humanity and human dignity. And so it makes sense that someone who is pro

00:13:45.280 abortion would minimize the torture and the killing of these children and just say women's 0.50

00:13:50.780 rights. But I have seen in my own inbox that it's not just liberal women. It's a lot of conservative 1.00

00:13:56.820 women. I have lost many followers. I can't say thousands. It hasn't been thousands, hundreds, 0.99

00:14:02.500 I would say, of followers over the past couple of weeks because of what I have been saying about

00:14:10.160 this Lindsay Clancy case. I mean, women who are so set on relating to her and relating to her

00:14:19.100 struggles that they have completely forgotten about the plight of the victims. And when justice

00:14:25.580 and judgments are rooted in how much we can relate to a person, how deeply we feel for a

00:14:32.920 person, how badly we feel for a person, whether or not we have shared the same experiences that

00:14:37.960 is that person, that is partiality masked as compassion. Okay. And the God who delivered

00:14:44.840 justice, who created justice, who gives us what law giving in a just way looks like in the old

00:14:51.040 Testament. He says, you shall judge without partiality. Partiality is evil to the Lord.

00:14:57.580 It's sin. Okay. How we feel about any of the people involved in the case should be completely

00:15:03.960 irrelevant. But unfortunately we've seen, especially women in the general public are 0.99

00:15:09.160 having a very hard time getting out of their own situation, their own experiences and their own

00:15:14.580 feelings to just be able to rule this objectively. Okay. There's no place for that among women of

00:15:20.280 God. I just want to say there's no place for that. I understand why someone who is an atheist and who 1.00

00:15:24.700 thinks feelings rule, why they would forego all, um, all standards of right and wrong. But for

00:15:32.960 women of God, that should not be the case. Now, can we disagree on her liability based on the 0.95

00:15:39.200 facts, based on the arguments? Yes. I think that's possible. It's hard for me at this point. She did

00:15:45.300 admit to murdering her own children. Um, but yes, of course we can disagree without me accusing you

00:15:52.840 of idolizing feelings. Um, however, it would really depend on like, why do you think that

00:15:58.780 she's not liable? Why do you think she's not responsible? Is it really based on facts or is

00:16:03.580 it based on your own experiences? Is it based on what TikTok has said? A lot of women in my DMs,

00:16:09.680 I just want you to be really honest. When you say you haven't watched this trial, have you watched

00:16:14.480 the trial or have you watched Instagram? Have you watched the trial or have you watched TikTok?

00:16:20.240 That's not watching the trial. Like if you've been like me and you've been watching the sometimes

00:16:26.200 boring trial on YouTube without any commentary, then you've watched the trial. That's what I've

00:16:33.400 been doing. I'm not on TikTok. I've never logged into TikTok. And so I only know because I see it

00:16:40.220 on Instagram or people sent it to me, but be honest with yourself before you throw stones at

00:16:44.320 me. All that to say, people are concerned about the makeup of this jury. There's nine women and

00:16:50.780 three men. They have deliberated over three days. Also, there were two women who walked into the

00:16:57.660 court this week and they were wearing pink. Now that could be a total coincidence. The jury's

00:17:03.280 not supposed to know what's going on online. They're not supposed to be influenced by outside

00:17:08.140 voices. However, the women who have been standing outside the courthouse in support of Lindsay 0.99

00:17:13.400 Clancy, which is just so hard for me to even comprehend, they are all wearing pink in support

00:17:18.040 of her. Gosh, can you imagine whether, whether or not you think that she was in some kind of

00:17:25.800 forced mental state? Like how could you possibly be showing up in cheery pink in support of a

00:17:32.980 murder. It's insane. Now, a little bit more about the jury. As we said earlier, they remain

00:17:40.460 deadlocked. And if the jury does stay deadlocked, if they keep coming back to the judge and they're

00:17:46.820 like, we just can't come to a conclusion, the judge can declare a mistrial because of the hung

00:17:53.360 jury. A hung jury is not an acquittal. It's also not a conviction. It simply means the jury was

00:17:59.160 unable to reach a unanimous verdict. In that event, the charges remain pending and prosecutors

00:18:03.420 must decide whether to retry the case. The jury has asked for several pieces of evidence,

00:18:10.780 including medications that were introduced during the trial, the knife involved in Lindsay Clancy's

00:18:16.360 suicide attempt and other physical exhibits. There's this horrible picture. I don't even

00:18:22.160 want to show it, but speaking of the knife, I don't know if you guys have seen it go around.

00:18:26.060 it's her bedside table and it has this bloody knife the bedside table is bloody and then it's

00:18:30.720 got this like to go wine cup and on it it says because kids yikes now a lot of people will say

00:18:40.300 well you know that's just a joke we can't judge her there was also these facebook posts and all

00:18:45.900 of this stuff and we'll get into some of that about lindsey and her diary entries just talking

00:18:50.680 about how much she resented motherhood how difficult motherhood was and some people are

00:18:54.160 saying, okay, but that's completely irrelevant. I don't think so. I think everything needs to

00:19:00.260 be interpreted in light of the fact that she murdered her kids. If she hadn't done that,

00:19:04.840 then yeah, you could say she's just part of toxic mommy culture, which I've been writing about and

00:19:08.680 talking about for eight years at this point. And not everyone who was involved with toxic

00:19:15.140 mommy culture goes on to kill their kids, but probably everyone that kills their kids was

00:19:20.100 involved with toxic mommy culture. And if you've got a wine glass that says, because kids, then you

00:19:25.940 were probably influenced by the cultural feelings of the day, which is that motherhood is the hardest

00:19:32.220 thing ever and justifies drunkenness and all kinds of forms of escapism. So I just wanted to, I just

00:19:38.280 wanted to point that out because I see a lot of confusion and even debate about whether things

00:19:43.180 like that are relevant. I think they are. Um, the jury has several possible verdicts available

00:19:49.120 Before the jury began deliberating last Thursday, the judge instructed jurors that in addition to

00:19:54.780 the murder charges, they could also consider the lesser offense of voluntary manslaughter.

00:19:59.780 If Lindsay Clancy is convicted of first degree murder, she faces a mandatory sentence of life

00:20:05.080 in prison without the possibility of parole. Okay. So death penalty is not on the table.

00:20:10.160 I know those of us who believe that the death penalty is just for murder, which God says it is

00:20:16.020 Genesis 9. And so who am I to go against the God who created justice? But that's like a lot of us

00:20:22.560 are saying, yes, the death penalty should always be on the table for someone who commits this kind

00:20:27.820 of crime. It's not on the table here. Um, if she is convicted of second degree murder, she will

00:20:33.140 receive a life sentence with the possibility of parole. If the jury instead convicts her of

00:20:38.640 voluntary manslaughter, she faces up to 20 years in prison for each count of manslaughter up to 60

00:20:44.340 years total in prison with the possibility of parole. So she would, I mean, if she goes to

00:20:51.280 prison for 60 years, I find that very unlikely she would die in prison. I think she's in her

00:20:57.160 late thirties. So that would be her fate. Now, if she is found not guilty by reason of lack of 0.70

00:21:04.000 lack of criminal responsibility, Clancy would likely be committed to a secure psychiatric

00:21:08.800 hospital until a court determines she is no longer mentally ill and dangerous now the strange thing

00:21:15.060 is i remember because i actually did watch the trial kevin reddington her attorney saying well

00:21:21.940 she hasn't heard any voices uh since then she has been sleeping great since then she's been

00:21:28.660 mentally stable and mentally uh secure since then and then there was also some like other chatter

00:21:34.680 uh in the court about her uh possibly being on the brink of suicide so it's kind of strange like

00:21:40.560 what is actually the assessment of her mental state but it is true that she is generally stable

00:21:45.760 she's not going to be in a psychiatric hospital for very long so that basically is freedom i think

00:21:52.020 in the beginning we thought oh she'd commit she'd be committed to psychiatric hospital forever well

00:21:56.940 if you're found not guilty you can't be committed to basically jail forever i i don't think that

00:22:03.140 would be just if you were truly found not guilty. She's not going to go to a psychiatric hospital

00:22:08.400 for very long. She's just not. So if she is found not guilty, there's no justice. There's no

00:22:13.840 punishment for her crime. The jury could also return a traditional not guilty verdict, in which

00:22:19.740 case Clancy would simply be released. I really don't see that as that different as her going to

00:22:27.280 a psychiatric hospital. If I were to guess, I think it's going to be manslaughter or I think

00:22:35.140 it's going to be not guilty by reason of lack of criminal responsibility. Outside the courtroom,

00:22:41.860 defense attorney Kevin Reddington told reporters that Clancy is very sad and scared as she awaits

00:22:47.760 the jury's decision. This is also something that I just don't really understand because

00:22:53.200 if I committed a horrible, horrible crime, say I had really been in psychosis. Okay. And I had

00:23:02.000 done this horrible thing. Send me to prison for life. Like give me the utmost punishment because

00:23:09.040 I would not be able to live with myself. And because I love my children so much that I would

00:23:14.720 want justice for them. I would not want to be free. I would not want to enjoy life. I would

00:23:20.800 not want to be liberated if I had committed this crime, even if I had done so under the influence

00:23:26.740 of drugs. Okay. So this idea that she's so sad for herself, she's so scared for herself because

00:23:33.360 she wants to be ruled, not guilty. So she can go and live on and be outside of prison. I find that

00:23:39.400 sus. I just do. Like I said, there is this, um, idea that Reddington, the defense attorney is

00:23:47.400 some feminist icon here's a woman saying you're our voice i had my mental health weaponized

00:23:54.400 against me and family i had an issue whenever my son was postpartum or whenever i was postpartum

00:24:00.820 my second son was eight months old you're the voice so i know what kelly went or sorry lindsey

00:24:07.020 went through i know what she went through i feel it the idolatry here is just it's just very

00:24:14.600 disturbing i saw this post originally on x and then i've seen it recreated by a few count accounts

00:24:21.380 and there was an instagram post i think it was freedom center from liberty university

00:24:27.380 and they were quoting the passage from the bible where the mob of people are saying give us barabbas

00:24:37.220 give us barabbas in exchange for jesus we want jesus to be crucified we want barabbas this thief

00:24:45.520 to be released um and then the examples that they gave were tyler robinson lindsey clancy

00:24:53.300 carmelo anthony these are all people who by a segment of our culture have been elevated to the

00:25:03.240 point of innocence or to the point of actually being a hero. Woe to those who call evil good

00:25:10.840 and good evil. I mean, how sick are we when even those who profess to be believers cannot agree

00:25:17.660 that murder is always wrong. Murder, I mean, some people will say, well, that's not what

00:25:23.100 the debate is about. The debate is about who actually did it. Okay, then we should be able

00:25:29.140 to agree on evidence. We should be able to agree on truth. We should be able to agree on logic.

00:25:34.880 We should be able to agree on some basic fundamentals of how to actually seek truth

00:25:40.780 that is not just peddling conspiracy theories. Christians should be the most reasonable people

00:25:45.900 in the world. And unfortunately, I don't think that's the case in a lot of these situations

00:25:51.680 right now online. All right. We've got our argument, our three reasons why Lindsay Clancy

00:25:57.720 should be found guilty. In just a second, let me pause. Let me tell you about We Heart Nutrition.

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00:27:17.960 code Allie for 20% off weheartnutrition.com code Allie. All right. So let's get into my three

00:27:30.240 reasons for why I believe Lindsay Clancy to be not just guilty of doing it. We should all know

00:27:36.440 that she did it. Okay. She admitted that she did it. Everyone's admitting that she did it.

00:27:40.400 Her defense attorneys are not arguing that she did not do it. The question is, is she criminally

00:27:46.820 liable. So did Lindsay Clancy's mental illness actually render her not criminally responsible?

00:27:53.420 Second question, does the evidence point to a psychotic episode or does it point to careful

00:27:58.020 planning? And then third question, should the jury place more weight on the analysis of doctors who

00:28:03.320 treated Lindsay before the killings or an expert who evaluated her after the fact? I believe if

00:28:09.640 you answer those three questions honestly, that the evidence points overwhelmingly in one direction,

00:28:14.900 Lindsay Clancy should be found guilty, criminally responsible. I wasn't completely sure of that

00:28:21.820 in the very beginning because as I was going through all of these medications that she was

00:28:27.640 on and their interactions and their side effects, and I was looking at the things Patrick Clancy

00:28:32.620 was saying, it just seemed like, wow, this was some freak event. But again, as the trial has

00:28:38.040 gone on, as I've watched the trial, as I've seen the arguments presented, as I've seen the

00:28:43.060 disposition of each attorney and just how unnecessarily condescending and dismissive

00:28:49.440 and very many times illogical the defense is. As I weigh all of the evidence that is presented,

00:28:56.900 I don't even want to see completely changed my mind because it was never out of the realm of

00:29:02.420 possibility that she was totally liable. But I have certainly shifted much harder into the

00:29:07.600 direction that yes, she is guilty. So reason number one, mental illness is not the same thing

00:29:13.960 as legal insanity. Okay. Really important point. Even if someone is mentally ill,

00:29:19.860 which she might have been as most people who kill people are as most people who kill their 0.53

00:29:25.320 own children are like, you're probably not doing well mentally. Jeffrey Dahmer, probably not super 0.71

00:29:31.020 saying, Ted Bundy, probably not the most mentally composed guy. Yes, if you are going on a killing 0.74

00:29:37.860 rampage, especially one as relentless as this one, you probably are not firing on all cylinders

00:29:45.000 mentally, of course. But if we were to dismiss every person who had some kind of mental illness

00:29:52.060 as not being criminally liable, then most of our prisons would be empty and that wouldn't be a

00:29:56.980 good thing. We'd be a lot less safe. Mental illness is not the same thing as legal insanity

00:30:02.980 that invalidates any of your responsibility. So this case is really not about whether Lindsay

00:30:09.540 Clancy was suffering mentally. Nearly everyone agrees that she was. I agree that she was from

00:30:15.320 the things that she wrote, from the things that people say. She was struggling. That's not a

00:30:20.180 question. Prosecutor Jennifer Sprague said it in closing. There is no dispute that Lindsay Clancy 0.95

00:30:25.500 was mentally ill and that she tried to kill herself saw too. There's no dispute that Lindsay 0.51

00:30:31.980 Clancy was suffering from mental illness and that she tried to kill herself. There's no dispute

00:30:37.900 about that. All of the evidence that you've heard, even the experts that the Commonwealth put before

00:30:42.780 you say that she was suffering from mental illness and she tried to kill herself. That's not the

00:30:49.500 issue in this trial. The issue is whether at the time she killed Cora, Dawson, and Callen she knew

00:30:57.800 the difference between right and wrong and whether she could conform her behavior to the requirements

00:31:03.440 of the law. This case is not about our mental health system or how it treats women or what's

00:31:11.180 in the DSM-5 and what's not. That's a distraction to get you angry and passionate about an important

00:31:17.620 an issue but an issue that's not on trial here what the issue is here is what lindsey clancy did

00:31:23.760 the night of january 24th 2023 and what her mental state was at the time i see a lot of people saying

00:31:32.120 that the prosecution did a bad job and you know i think it's just true that in every situation you

00:31:38.520 can look from the peanut gallery and say oh they should have said this they should have argued this

00:31:42.200 they should have done this i actually think the defense and prosecution both did their jobs well

00:31:46.600 They both did what they were hired to do sufficiently.

00:31:51.380 And I, you know, for anyone who, you know, says from the outside, you should have done

00:31:56.540 this or you should have said this.

00:31:57.840 Well, there's probably a lot of things that we don't understand.

00:32:00.560 At the end of the day, I do think the prosecution made a sound argument.

00:32:04.600 So that's important to note that being mentally ill is not the same thing as losing all criminal 0.97

00:32:12.040 responsibility because you are insane. 0.91

00:32:15.180 another common argument is that lindsey wasn't responsible because she didn't receive enough 0.87

00:32:20.160 treatment or support but the evidence presented at trial paints a totally different picture 0.84

00:32:24.260 the prosecution notes this in her closing argument she says that lindsey had health insurance that

00:32:29.620 covered multiple psychiatrists specialty mental health programs treatment at south shore hospital 0.98

00:32:35.240 and massachusetts general hospital voluntary stay at mclean hospital she had prescription coverage

00:32:41.380 for the many medications her doctors tried. She had 18 weeks of maternity leave with the option

00:32:47.140 to extend it. Is it possible for someone to still be overwhelmed and have all of that support? 1.00

00:32:52.640 Yes, that's beside the point. What she's saying is that those who are arguing that everyone failed

00:32:58.260 her, everyone in her life failed her, abandoned her. She was crying out for help. She didn't get

00:33:02.400 help. She got a ton of help. And some argue that she was actually doctor shopping. Some would argue

00:33:08.760 that she had been planning this whole thing for a long time and she wanted to show really how sick

00:33:13.360 and unstable she was by trying to get all of these different medications but the truth is is that she

00:33:18.840 got support we can see that the evidence shows that she had support from both her family and

00:33:24.760 Patrick's family that has been brought up multiple times by witness testimony on both sides her two

00:33:30.440 older children were in preschool three and a half days a week this is previously this is before the

00:33:35.960 killings happened. And the family had a nanny who cared for Callan three mornings a week while also

00:33:41.000 helping with housework and meal preparation. Again, from the timeline that I've studied,

00:33:45.560 that was previously, that was prior to the killings, not at the same time of the killings,

00:33:49.760 but that point is still important. That it's not like she was just left to carry this burden for

00:33:56.580 years and years on her own. People are pointing out that it's nefarious that Patrick let the nanny

00:34:02.420 go after she decided to stay home from work. But I don't find that nefarious. I find that to be

00:34:09.800 very logical. She claims, or the claim is that she wanted to stay home from being a nurse because

00:34:15.580 she didn't want to be away from her kids. Okay. Well, then you fire the nanny who would be watching

00:34:21.820 the kids while you are away from them. So I don't think that that's a strange thing that even if she

00:34:27.420 said she was overwhelmed, that when she decided to not go back to work, that they fired the nanny.

00:34:33.040 I don't find that to be malicious at all. None of that means that Lindsay was not suffering,

00:34:38.020 as I said, but it does mean that she had access to far more treatment and practical help and

00:34:44.280 family support than many people struggling with serious mental illnesses. And I understand that

00:34:50.380 a lot of people have villainized Patrick Clancy largely based on vibes. Some people say it's based

00:34:56.740 on some kind of mismatched alibi or that his story doesn't match up. Again, most of y'all

00:35:04.680 are getting that from TikTok, not from actually watching the trial. But he apparently, even

00:35:10.660 according to her own diary entries, even according to witness testimony, he was supportive. He was

00:35:17.540 there. He was actually trying to help. I have no idea if he was a perfect husband. That's not

00:35:25.020 what's on trial here. And I'm not even saying that her being a perfect mom is what's on trial.

00:35:29.860 I'm just saying this argument that she didn't have enough mental illness support and therefore

00:35:33.780 it's everyone else's fault except for hers, it just doesn't hold up. It's just not true. And even

00:35:39.900 if it were true, I don't think that makes her not liable. Now here's a question that I have

00:35:45.060 for Lindsay's defenders. My question is this, would you show the same mercy to Lindsay if she

00:35:54.100 had killed your children. Would you feel the same deep empathy for her mental struggles? Would you

00:36:00.560 opt for keeping her out of prison because, well, she was having a hard time mentally and she had

00:36:06.100 been taking pills on and off? Probably not. Hopefully not. I'm just afraid that too many

00:36:12.360 women left and right think justice is dictated by how deeply we can relate to the people involved

00:36:17.780 because some of you can see yourself in Lindsay's depression or anxiety and can't relate to her

00:36:23.940 children, you feel compelled to defend her. Now, before commenting defensively, I just want you to

00:36:30.380 stop for a second and really consider whether that's true. Because after I posted that, I got

00:36:34.820 a bunch of messages from people saying that changed my mind. Thinking about it that way

00:36:40.240 completely changed my perspective. So if we're going to go by how we feel, stop for a second.

00:36:47.920 And would you give all of these excuses to Lindsay if she hadn't killed her kids, but your kids?

00:36:53.940 She had the exact same story, the same background, the same struggle with mental health, the same

00:36:57.900 struggle with all of these drugs that she was on, but she killed your kids. Would you say,

00:37:02.800 eh, she's probably just going through a hard time. She was struggling. We need to raise more

00:37:06.440 awareness about this and she shouldn't go to prison. And if so, that's even just beyond where 1.00

00:37:14.200 I can reach you. Empathy-based justice is not justice at all. Again, it's partiality, which

00:37:20.600 God calls evil. We don't make these decisions based on whether or not we can relate to someone.

00:37:26.720 The question is, was Clancy legally responsible? Under Massachusetts law, someone is criminally

00:37:33.320 responsible if, despite any mental illness, they still had the substantial capacity to, one,

00:37:40.760 understand what they were doing was wrong, and two, to control their actions. A person is found

00:37:45.900 not criminally responsible only if a mental disease or defect deprived them of one or both

00:37:50.960 of those capacities. So the defense's burden is not simply to show that Lindsay suffered from

00:37:56.580 some mental condition. It is to persuade the jury that her mental illness rose to the extraordinary

00:38:01.500 level required for a verdict of not criminally responsible. And as we're going to see, the

00:38:08.180 evidence strongly supports the idea that Lindsay Clancy was criminally responsible. Reason number

00:38:14.420 two, we think she's guilty. The evidence points to planning and purposeful action. We'll get to

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00:39:15.340 code Allie. The evidence points to planning and purposeful action. So if the question is whether

00:39:24.560 Lindsay was legally responsible, what evidence should we examine? Let's talk about what she

00:39:30.180 actually did that afternoon. According to NBC Boston, that afternoon before the murders,

00:39:34.600 Her phone shows a search for children's Miralax around 4.02.

00:39:38.260 She had taken her daughter to the doctor earlier that day.

00:39:42.260 And so this makes sense.

00:39:43.640 That in and of itself, I don't think is suspicious.

00:39:45.980 And then a search for takeout from 3V restaurant around 4.13.

00:39:49.800 Then an Apple Maps search for how long it would take for Patrick to do these pickups.

00:39:54.620 Now, again, without the fact that she murdered her kids, that could all seem innocent.

00:39:59.760 She could have just been looking to see how far it would take and how long, you know, 3V,

00:40:06.340 how far away it was from the CVS. Does this route make sense? But the fact that she killed her kids

00:40:13.080 while Patrick was gone, that's suspect. The choice of restaurant is important because it was not,

00:40:18.380 it was one the family did not ever, not my notes say usually, but it's actually ever used for

00:40:24.220 takeout. Patrick testified that they normally used closer places like Chestnut Grill or West

00:40:30.520 End Grill. They had eaten at 3V before, but they had never gone there for takeout. After this,

00:40:35.920 Lindsay added a CVS stop, called to confirm the Miralac substitute was in stock, and sent Patrick

00:40:41.300 out at about 5.15. While he was at CVS, she missed his call and called back at 5.34. This was while

00:40:49.020 she, uh, was in the midst of the killings, the timeline goes, but according to Patrick,

00:40:53.680 she was quiet. She sounded busy. And this just made him think that she was doing something like

00:40:58.980 giving the kids a bath because he said, yeah, she sounded distracted, but you know, of course she

00:41:03.820 always sounded distracted when three kids are home. So she picked up the call was apparently

00:41:08.040 very calm, was able to be of sound mind while talking to Patrick and then went about her

00:41:14.020 business. Now, this does not point to a woman having an uncontrollable psychotic break, but to

00:41:21.100 someone who was carefully planning out a sequence of events so she would have enough time to complete

00:41:26.020 the murders. There was an expert witness for the prosecution whose testimony we didn't get to play

00:41:30.720 last week, whose name was Dr. Gregory Sothoff, a forensic psychiatrist who works with the FBI's

00:41:38.360 Behavioral Analysis Unit, he highlights Clancy's planning and timing. And these clips are a little

00:41:44.420 bit long, but some of these witnesses are long-winded, and we really just wanted to

00:41:49.360 include all of the contacts, top three. The planning involved prior to the

00:41:55.580 strangling of her children, I thought was significant. The

00:42:03.740 searches for distance of 3V, the searches of CVS, all done prior to her sending fairly late

00:42:22.820 in the afternoon a text asking her husband if he didn't mind take out from 3B and then adding on.

00:42:34.400 There was a window of time that Ms. Clancy was aware of in which she would need to kill 1.00

00:42:44.720 her three children as well as to kill herself, which she expected would happen. 0.99

00:42:53.660 Okay. Then there's the problem of all of the decisions that had to be made in the killings.

00:43:00.140 Each child, it's so hard to keep saying this, but was individually strangled with exercise bans.

00:43:06.280 And so this wasn't an act of momentary rage. This was something that required a lot of strength

00:43:13.280 and a lot of persistence. I think people don't want to consider that, which I completely

00:43:18.800 understand, especially if you're a mom, no one wants to think about that, but she took them down

00:43:23.940 one by one. She thought about the fact, okay, maybe I don't want them to see what's happening.

00:43:28.460 I don't want them to run and go get help. I don't want them to, maybe the oldest had even the

00:43:32.860 ability to make a phone call or run to a neighbor. Um, I don't, or maybe it was just, I don't want

00:43:37.680 them to see this happening, whatever it was. She didn't do it all at once. She put them face down

00:43:43.960 too. So she wouldn't have to look in their eyes and they wouldn't have to look at hers.

00:43:47.660 that is someone who is thinking. So all of this demonstrates repeated purposeful action rather

00:43:54.340 than a single impulsive act. Dr. Kirk Heilbrunn, a clinical and forensic psychologist and Drexel

00:44:00.860 University professor argued that Lindsay Clancy's description of just following the voice is very

00:44:06.160 difficult. He said extremely difficult to reconcile with the series of choices required to carry out

00:44:11.840 the killings. He said that voices, when someone is suffering psychosis, very, very rarely,

00:44:20.340 he didn't say never, but in these types of settings, you typically don't say never or

00:44:24.560 always, but very, very rarely does that voice just occur once and then go away. Now, as we

00:44:31.980 have noted in the past, he is not going to consider the possibility of a demonic voice.

00:44:37.620 And I don't even think you're allowed to bring that into a case like this.

00:44:41.420 Of course, we know that that is possible, but demonic influence would negate someone's

00:44:45.980 criminal responsibility.

00:44:46.820 Again, you'd have empty prisons if that were the case.

00:44:49.840 According to Clancy, the voice told her only, this is your last chance. 1.00

00:44:54.880 You have to kill the kids so you can kill yourself. 1.00

00:44:57.860 That's according to CBS Boston. 1.00

00:44:59.320 But the alleged voice never described how to carry out the killings.

00:45:04.460 And so again, why choose this method that required so much persistence, endurance,

00:45:11.540 and strength, and cruelty? And the testimony of Sathoff, I don't think that we have this,

00:45:20.480 but one thing that he said in his testimony was that every human has a will to survive,

00:45:27.000 and children have a very strong will to survive. And if you look at the injury report, the autopsy,

00:45:36.540 especially from the three-year-old Dawson, he has very serious bruising that is consistent

00:45:44.200 with trying to run away and being grabbed and being forced down and being forced to lay still

00:45:50.480 as he was desperately trying to escape. Now, this is the same child that she had complained about

00:45:57.080 publicly on mom groups on Facebook saying he is the most difficult child or difficult person

00:46:02.920 I have ever encountered. Now, again, some people say, well, you can't judge her for saying that

00:46:08.720 she was reaching out for help. I can actually, because she ended up murdering him. If she hadn't

00:46:13.860 done that, maybe I wouldn't judge her for saying something that I actually don't think that you

00:46:18.740 should ever say publicly about your children, but maybe I would have less judgment. But she

00:46:22.580 murdered him. So I think that we have a right to righteously judge everything that she said about

00:46:28.000 these children. Dr. Halbrin lays out why he thinks this was a deliberate plan.

00:46:33.800 She talked about feeling like it wasn't her, like she was watching herself, like she was going

00:46:42.440 through what she called no thinking, no decision-making, only responding to the

00:46:49.640 voice and taking action. And when she said that there was no decision-making

00:46:55.940 involved did you see anything about in the records or in her detailing of what

00:47:02.900 happened that was inconsistent with that claim that there was no decision-making?

00:47:06.800 Yeah, this is difficult but important to say. There are just many ongoing decisions that have to be made to accomplish a killing like this in 18 to 20 minutes.

00:47:24.720 For example, why the basement? Who among the children goes first? What do you say to the kids to keep them from panicking?

00:47:36.800 What to use to strangle the children, is that a decision that has to be made?

00:47:40.260 Yes, it is.

00:47:41.360 The order in which to strangle the children, is that a decision that has to be made?

00:47:45.760 That's another example of the decision, yes.

00:47:49.520 And the way in which to kill herself, were those decisions that had to be made?

00:47:57.660 Yes, they were.

00:47:59.300 Now, just a minute ago, I said that in these cases, you don't hear these people saying always never.

00:48:05.460 But actually, this doctor with 50 years of experience in this realm does say something

00:48:13.440 about something never happening when it comes to psychosis.

00:48:18.420 Listen to this, thought six.

00:48:20.540 Is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice only one time, never before,

00:48:28.380 never after?

00:48:29.960 No.

00:48:30.500 and again based on your training experience is it typical for someone in psychosis to

00:48:37.740 um hear a voice that's constant rather than intermittent no that is not typical an intermittent

00:48:47.540 voice would would come and go um it wouldn't necessarily just keep playing over and over again

00:48:57.840 as if it were on a tape which uh miss clancy told me that it was a voice it's the same thing

00:49:06.900 in in the same tone repeated over and over and over um until um she had strangled count

00:49:17.700 committing the act is not curative of the voice i i've not i've not ever seen that

00:49:26.060 Based on your training experience, someone in psychosis, hearing a voice without accompanying delusions, is that typical?

00:49:37.800 That is, that would be pretty rare.

00:49:42.880 So he does say, I've not ever seen that.

00:49:47.740 I've not ever seen that in his many decades of doing this work.

00:49:51.520 He has never seen that committing the act that the voice tells you to commit cures the

00:49:57.020 voice and makes it go away.

00:49:58.420 Yeah.

00:49:58.620 And apparently Lindsay Clancy's situation, it did.

00:50:02.100 So when you look at this complex sequence of decisions required to carry out the killings

00:50:06.640 combined with the fact that Clancy cannot keep her story straight about the voices,

00:50:12.360 the most plausible explanation is that she made up the story about the voice afterward,

00:50:17.580 Or maybe it was just an intrusive thought that she has decided, oh, well, actually this

00:50:23.080 was a voice telling me what to do.

00:50:24.760 Now, of course, the defense strongly disagrees with that conclusion.

00:50:28.140 Their case depends on medical experts who believe that Lindsay was suffering from postpartum

00:50:32.560 psychosis.

00:50:33.520 And this raises an important question, which doctors should the jury believe?

00:50:38.920 Should they believe the doctors who say, yes, she was in psychosis?

00:50:41.600 Should they believe the prosecution's doctors, which is we played last week, said that's

00:50:46.940 not what psychosis is. Psychosis happens in the weeks after giving birth, not several months

00:50:51.800 after giving birth. Let's go to number three. Medical evidence at the time is stronger than

00:50:59.720 hindsight opinions. The medical evidence that she had at the time from the doctors that have

00:51:05.360 been treating her prior to the killings, that is stronger than hindsight opinions. We'll get into

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00:52:28.980 So which doctors should be believed? Defense doctors, prosecutions doctors,

00:52:35.260 or the doctors that treated her before? What the prosecution claims is supported by

00:52:42.960 Lindsay's doctors who treated her at the time. She was depressed, but not psychotic. And she

00:52:50.160 wasn't at the point where she couldn't control her actions. But it's important to note that much

00:52:54.960 of what the defense claims that Lindsay killed her children because of psychosis brought on by

00:53:00.320 postpartum depression relies on medical diagnoses made after the killing. So this is a point that

00:53:06.020 I've made multiple times. And I have had people all in my comments, all in my inbox saying that

00:53:11.020 this is not true, but unable to provide the contrary evidence. Lindsay Clancy was never

00:53:17.100 diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. She was never even diagnosed with postpartum depression or

00:53:21.860 anxiety. That's the truth. She was diagnosed with an unspecified mood disorder, which is a form of

00:53:26.900 depression. I'm not saying that she was mentally well. I'm not saying that she was doing okay,

00:53:31.400 but if we are going to use medical terminology, we should probably get it right. And when I've

00:53:36.920 said, she was never diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. I've got so many people saying that's

00:53:41.600 just not true. That's just not true. Okay. Show me the evidence. Show me the evidence. When has

00:53:46.900 that ever been claimed? That's never even claimed by the defense. It's claimed that she had it. It

00:53:51.460 is not claimed that she was diagnosed with it. In fact, their argument is that she should have

00:53:56.000 been diagnosed with it. Okay. Well, she wasn't. And she had several different doctors and she

00:54:02.040 a different hospital stays, lots of psychiatric care, and not one of them, not one of those 0.99

00:54:08.140 medical providers, not one of those hospitals said, yeah, this woman is suffering from psychosis.

00:54:14.520 So they are relying on their expert witnesses to diagnose her retroactively. 0.61

00:54:22.660 Lindsay Clancy did seek help. She did for insomnia, anxiety, intrusive thoughts,

00:54:26.980 suicidal ideation. She underwent a five-day voluntary stay at McLean earlier in January

00:54:33.000 2023. And so that was right before actually she killed her children. None of the doctors,

00:54:38.780 bears repeating, who actually treated Clancy at the time recorded any evidence of psychosis

00:54:42.640 or auditory hallucinations, or gave a diagnosis of postpartum depression. Clancy's psychiatrist,

00:54:50.400 Dr. Jennifer Tufts, who had treated her since 2022, said in her testimony that Lindsay was

00:54:57.300 quote, very clearly not psychotic, included in the period leading up to January 24th,

00:55:02.220 and that the day before the killings, Clancy denied suicidal and homicidal thoughts.

00:55:07.440 Okay. Dr. Aaliyah, I think that's how you pronounce her name, Goodhart, who oversaw

00:55:12.600 Clancy's admission to McLean Hospital in January, 2023, diagnosed major depressive disorder without

00:55:18.920 psychotic features. So specifically, like that's the diagnosis, major depressive disorder without

00:55:23.920 psychotic features. She testified that she saw no signs of psychosis and had no concern that

00:55:29.300 Clancy was a danger to others. There was also no evidence presented at the trial that any of

00:55:34.760 Clancy's treating physicians formally diagnosed her with postpartum depression. At Women and

00:55:39.380 Infants Hospital, clinicians specifically concluded that she did not have postpartum depression.

00:55:44.420 Wow. Okay. The hearing voices portion. Prosecution experts noted that none of Lindsay Clancy's

00:55:52.500 treating providers documented reports of an auditory command hallucination before the

00:55:57.740 killings. Her description of a male voice commanding her to kill her children first 0.94

00:56:01.880 appeared after the crime and was totally inconsistent with her contemporaneous medical

00:56:06.840 records. Dr. Jennifer Tufts, reminder she was a psychiatrist that had treated Clancy since 2022,

00:56:12.800 testified that she was not hearing voices. Dr. Avram Mack, we talked about him last week,

00:56:19.780 a psychiatrist, expert witness for the prosecution, also testified that he found no evidence of

00:56:25.060 psychosis in Lindsay Clancy's contemporaneous medical records. And when asked whether the

00:56:29.700 reports indicated that she had complained of hearing voices, he answered, she complained

00:56:33.780 about intrusive thoughts. Now, intrusive thoughts, not the same thing as hearing voices. Okay. Those

00:56:39.000 are voices in your own, those are thoughts in your own voice. And you might hear things or think

00:56:45.100 things that you don't want to think. And that actually is very normal postpartum. Now, typically

00:56:49.340 it's not, it doesn't lead you to do horrible things, but it might be like, oh my gosh, what

00:56:54.120 if a hawk comes and snatches my baby out of the backyard? Like it's things like that, that are

00:56:58.540 totally irrational, but you do become almost irrationally protective of your child and you

00:57:03.700 fear for their danger. That happens and is very common in postpartum depression and anxiety.

00:57:08.700 So she had complained of intrusive thoughts, but again, just having intrusive thoughts,

00:57:13.640 which is pretty common, is not an excuse for murder and doesn't typically lead to murder.

00:57:18.360 So to sum up, the defense's central theory of the case depends on symptoms and diagnoses that

00:57:23.020 are absent from Lindsay's contemporaneous medical record. The doctors who actually

00:57:27.460 evaluated Lindsay Clancy before the killings documented depression, anxiety, insomnia,

00:57:32.840 intrusive thoughts, suicidal ideation. So again, not doing well, but they did not diagnose

00:57:38.020 psychosis. And the entire case of the defense rests on her being actually psychotic. Okay.

00:57:44.240 We use the adjective a lot, but really clinically psychotic to where she was so out of her mind

00:57:50.120 that she could not be held responsible for what she was doing because it was basically like

00:57:54.580 someone else had possessed her body and committed these crimes. But that's not true. She wasn't

00:58:01.280 diagnosed with that. She wasn't diagnosed with postpartum depression. They did not document

00:58:04.980 reports of auditory command hallucinations, those diagnoses came later after the killings had

00:58:12.460 already occurred as the defense started building its case. Okay. You can, of course, think multiple

00:58:19.320 things at once that these SSRIs, that the drugs that they were, that she was on, they weren't good

00:58:23.940 for her, that she shouldn't have been on them. Okay. I agree with you. I've done many episodes

00:58:29.100 over the years on SSRIs. I've had many expert guests on. I've had Dr. McFellin on. I've had

00:58:36.320 Dr. Yosef on. And a lot of you are sending me their stuff. Look, I still respect them a lot.

00:58:42.980 And I would still have them back on to talk about these things that are really important. I don't

00:58:47.880 think the evidence supports the arguments that they're making right now, that these drugs had

00:58:53.460 enough of an influence on her to not make her criminally responsible. Because again,

00:58:59.340 then you're taking away the criminal responsibility of a lot of people. There's a lot of murderers

00:59:04.200 that are on SSRIs and that's bad. That's a problem with SSRIs. It doesn't mean that these people

00:59:08.920 shouldn't get punished for their crimes. I think a lot of it has to do with a confusion about like

00:59:13.980 what justice actually is. Oh, those kids are with God. Oh, she suffered enough. Oh, she's paralyzed.

00:59:19.360 No, no, no. Justice is not about the victims actually being able to tangibly see the person

00:59:25.660 that wronged them get punished. It is about the representation of value of the person that was

00:59:33.660 wronged. That is what the punishment is meant to be proportionate to. So when you take a life,

00:59:39.720 you get the utmost punishment because those lives mattered so much. That is actually the

00:59:47.900 justification that we read in Genesis 9. When God commands Noah, he says, look, there's going to,

00:59:54.560 I'm paraphrasing, obviously, there's going to be a death penalty if someone commits murder.

00:59:58.340 What is the reason that he gives? Because man is made in my image. Because man is made in God's

01:00:05.200 image. And so therefore, murdering someone is the worst thing that you could do. And therefore,

01:00:10.460 the only proportionate punishment for murdering an image bearer of God is execution. And so

01:00:16.900 justice really is about human dignity and recognizing human dignity. Yes. Protecting

01:00:23.660 the public. Yes. Just punishment. People think that punitive justice isn't justice at all.

01:00:28.880 Always has to be restorative. That's just not true. Like punitive justice is actually fine.

01:00:34.040 Like people should be punished for doing wrong things. It's also a deterrent for other people.

01:00:40.720 And so I don't know what's going to happen with this. I think it's clear at this point. I wasn't

01:00:45.700 so clear on it a month ago, but now with everything that we see and all of the testimony that we have

01:00:51.920 access to and all of the evidence that we have, it's really, really hard for me how someone could

01:00:57.380 come to a different conclusion other than Lindsay Clancy is 100% responsible for the murder of her

01:01:04.720 children. All right. We've got a little bit more to talk about. Let me pause and tell you about our

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01:01:58.600 or at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.ai slash Allie. Built for every industry,

01:02:03.600 ready for every boardroom, netsuite.ai slash Allie. All right. Before we get into lifestyle

01:02:14.180 pitter patter, I know we're going from something very serious to something not so serious, but I

01:02:18.260 do want to get into that topic. I just want to remind you again, what's happening with the Tyler

01:02:23.320 Robinson trial, the preliminary hearing it's continuing as I'm recording this. I don't know

01:02:28.580 whether or not the judge is going to say, yes, this is going to trial. My guess is that that

01:02:32.580 is going to be the case. Um, pray for Erica as they're having to relive this pray for Erica.

01:02:38.140 Also, as we're going into next week and we're looking at a year since Charlie was assassinated,

01:02:43.120 pray for his kids. My goodness. Like it is still so incredibly fresh for them every single morning

01:02:49.320 when they wake up every single night, when they go to sleep, pray again for justice in this case

01:02:54.620 and pray for truth to prevail. Pray for strength for her, that the Lord would continue to use her

01:03:00.680 and give grace to her and use her testimony for his glory. All right, let's take a pause for a

01:03:07.540 second. We talked about a lot of really heavy stuff that's really important. We are going to

01:03:12.400 talk about Oreo Gate. First, let's take a look at Hillary Clinton and me.

01:03:24.620 If you don't know why you're seeing a picture of Hillary Clinton and I baking cookies,

01:03:31.860 I don't have time to explain it. Okay. It was a crazy day. I don't know how I ended up there

01:03:35.760 either. Okay. Let's talk about Oreo gate. Do you know what I'm talking about? If you're a mom

01:03:41.000 online, you probably do, or maybe you've been living under a rock, which is totally fine too.

01:03:46.820 So there is a school moms group chat that is going viral. Now, is it real? I don't know. You

01:03:52.380 can never verify these things. Is this like a real group chat or is this rage bait? Is this

01:03:57.340 something that was planted to go viral to get people talking about Oreos? Is this big Nabisco

01:04:01.480 trying to put a clever advertisement out there? I don't know, but I think it's worth talking about

01:04:07.940 because this is probably a real phenomenon that goes on in these group chats. Okay. So this group

01:04:12.320 chat screenshot is going viral after a mom in a class requested that others stop packing Oreos

01:04:19.600 in their own five-year-old school lunches. So the story allegedly begins on August 18th,

01:04:25.460 when Michelle, a mom in the group chat with five other moms of children in the same class,

01:04:30.640 wrote this. Hi, everyone. Sorry, slightly awkward one, but could we maybe agree on some basic rules

01:04:36.580 around lunch boxes? And then another mom, of course. Is this about allergies? Michelle. No,

01:04:42.920 nothing allergy related. Ava came home really upset yesterday because one of the girls had 1.00

01:04:47.300 Oreos in her lunch. Oh, crying, laughing face. Why was she upset? Laura says, um, Michelle, 1.00

01:04:54.620 we don't allow that kind of thing at home. So obviously she wanted them when she saw someone

01:04:58.540 else eating them. Okay. She added, uh, I just wondered if we could agree not to send things

01:05:05.380 like Oreos, chocolate, candy, et cetera. So the kids aren't comparing lunches. Okay. Then one of

01:05:13.260 the moms, Charlotte, she admits that she was the one. She sent the Oreos. She said, I sent the

01:05:18.340 Oreos. And Michelle said, oh, okay, would you mind not sending them again? And Charlotte said, why?

01:05:23.580 Michelle said, because Ava was really upset about it. And I think it would be easier if we're all

01:05:27.080 consistent. Another mom, Casey says, I don't think that we can really control what everyone else

01:05:31.140 packs though. Michelle, I'm not trying to control anyone. I'm just asking everyone to be considerate.

01:05:35.640 Charlotte, with respect, I'm not changing my daughter's lunch because your daughter wants an

01:05:39.600 Oreo. Okay. I don't, again, don't know if it's real. However, this is how moms actually talk.

01:05:46.720 And so it's not the most unrealistic thing I've ever seen. I've never been a part of a group chat

01:05:51.220 like this because everyone that I hang around is cool, but this is, this is not completely

01:05:58.340 unsurprising for me. Well, apparently the next day, y'all Charlotte sent her daughter to school

01:06:04.760 with the exact same Oreos. Can you believe it? And well, Michelle went off. She said,

01:06:11.140 well, I really didn't want to bring this up again, but Ava came home upset again today.

01:06:17.240 And then Charlotte admits to being the one who sent the Oreos again. Charlotte said, yeah,

01:06:22.880 that would be me crying, laughing emoji after someone's like, tell me it's not the Oreos again.

01:06:30.260 and then Michelle is like yeah someone keeps doing this and Charlotte just owns up to it

01:06:36.360 Jenny then says I'm sorry but this is ridiculous Michelle says I don't think my daughter coming

01:06:43.560 home crying two days in a row is ridiculous then Ashley says but Michelle nobody is giving them

01:06:49.720 to Ava they're just eating their own lunch okay then Michelle informs the moms that she's emailed

01:06:56.720 the school about an approved snack list, an effective Oreo ban. But then thankfully the

01:07:03.660 school responded and said, okay, look, this is up to the discretion of the parents. You can't

01:07:08.460 dictate this. The other moms eventually coordinated Operation Oreo, packing the treats for their 1.00

01:07:13.080 children in solidarity. I mean, I do kind of feel bad that this woman is now being ganged up on for 1.00

01:07:19.300 this, but it's totally ridiculous. And this is the consequence of not teaching your children. 0.96

01:07:24.200 you're just not teaching your children consequences you're not teaching them to deal with hard things

01:07:29.840 whether or not this is real like you could see this kind of thing happening because of the gentle

01:07:35.720 parenting phenomenon where you don't think anything that your child does is actually wrong

01:07:41.520 everything is a product of just big feelings and big feelings always have to be understood they

01:07:46.080 always have to be talked about we basically bring our children into these therapy lessons rather than

01:07:50.740 just saying no. Some feelings are bad. Some feelings are bad. That's my big problem with

01:07:56.760 SEL, by the way. I visited a Christian school last year that said that they have SEL that teaches

01:08:02.260 feelings aren't bad. Your actions can be bad. Feelings aren't bad. Jealousy is a bad feeling.

01:08:07.640 Coveting is a bad feeling. Thou shall not covet actually makes the big 10. Jesus in his teaching

01:08:14.400 says, yeah, it's not that you just shouldn't kill. You actually shouldn't hate someone. Yeah,

01:08:18.120 it's not just that you shouldn't commit adultery. You should actually not even lust after someone

01:08:21.880 in your heart. There are feelings that are bad feelings. And this world that we've created for

01:08:26.160 our kids that says all feelings are totally normal and rational and fine, and you should

01:08:30.740 follow them. And other people should actually have to accommodate them by changing the way

01:08:35.360 that they operate. It's wrong. We're making very mentally and emotionally weak kids. And so it's

01:08:42.220 our responsibility as parents not to say, yeah, okay, let me try to take away all friction in

01:08:47.820 your life, but to use that opportunity to say, look, these are our values. I'm, I'm not their

01:08:54.580 parents. I'm not their mom. And so they have different rules. You need to be grateful for

01:08:59.400 what we're giving you. And if that continues to be a problem, it is still not the other mom's

01:09:05.420 fault. Allergy issue. Okay. That's one thing. But when we are talking about a preference and

01:09:10.960 your inability to enact discipline for your child and to teach your child gratitude and contentment

01:09:16.940 and self-control. I mean, that's something that, by the way, I'm not saying that I've perfected

01:09:20.620 this. We're working on all of these things in our home, and it's hard. But one thing we will

01:09:25.000 not teach our kids is that their feelings are everyone else's responsibility. That's just not

01:09:30.800 true, okay? We are not raising kids. We are raising future adults. And adults and kids are

01:09:38.620 different. They have to be taught differently. They have to be raised differently. Of course,

01:09:41.860 that is absolutely true. But we have to raise them with adulthood in mind. Is this going to

01:09:48.440 be a characteristic that we want them to be displaying when they're 25 or not? If the answer

01:09:52.380 is no, we need to be able to discipline them out of it now. All right. Crazy Oreo game.

01:09:58.720 That's all we got time for today. We will be back here on Friday.

01:10:08.620 You

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 02, 2026

Ep 1391 ｜ 3 Reasons Lindsay Clancy Is Absolutely Guilty

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