Ep 14 ｜ Holy Sexuality with Dr. Christopher Yuan
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Summary
Dr. Christopher Yuan is a Christian scholar, teacher, speaker, and author who was previously a practicing gay man, as well as a convicted drug dealer. His journey to Christ is an extremely powerful testimony, so you re not only going to hear his story, but he is going to give us insight into what the Bible truly says about homosexuality, how the church is dealing with homosexuality, and how we as Christians can minister to our homosexual friends.
Transcript
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Hey guys, it's Allie with CRTV's Relatable, where I am every Wednesday. I hope that y'all are having
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a great week. I'm super excited about today's podcast. You guys are going to hear me interview
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Dr. Christopher Yuan, who is a Christian scholar, teacher, speaker, and author who was previously a
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practicing gay man as well as a convicted drug dealer. And needless to say, his journey to Christ
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is an extremely powerful testimony. So you're not only going to hear his story, but he is going to
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give us insight into what the Bible truly says about homosexuality, how the church is dealing
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with homosexuality, and how we as Christians can minister to our homosexual friends. You guys have
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been asking me a lot about this particular subject, but I thought it would be better that you could
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hear someone who has firsthand experience in this, who has a very compassionate, empathetic,
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biblical take on sexuality. So I'm so excited for you to hear that. And then after that,
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this is kind of a long podcast. After that, I'm going to briefly touch on North Korea,
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what I think about everything that's been happening, the suicides of Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain,
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and then a thing that I just don't get, which is a section that I sometimes put at the end of my
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podcast. I haven't done that one in a while. Like I said, this is going to be a little bit of a longer
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podcast. So you are welcome to those of you who have asked for a longer format. And I am sorry
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to those of you who only want like a 30 minute podcast. You can listen to this in chunks and it'll
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last you all week. Okay, here we go with the interview with Dr. Christopher Yuan. Christopher,
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thank you so much for joining me. If you could first tell us who you are and what you do.
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Sure. My name is Christopher Yuan, and I speak on the topic of faith and sexuality, specifically on
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homosexuality, on reaching the gay community. How do we minister better on this topic? And
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especially how do we help those who are Christian and yet experience St. Francis Attractions?
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Wow, that is a really big and really relevant and very hot topic right now, especially with all of
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the changes in the church and changes really in the sexual and moral revolution that we seem to be
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happening, having right now. How did you get into this specific niche of theology and Christianity?
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Well, it was kind of like not by choice. You know, that's the way God works. It's a lot of it is
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actually through my own personal experience. I wasn't raised in a Christian, in a Christian home.
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My parents raised me very traditional Chinese values. If you haven't noticed, I am Chinese.
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And my parents immigrated here from Taiwan. They were born in China, raised in Taiwan,
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then came here to the U.S. for graduate school. And, you know, as a Chinese American, we have strong
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family values, but kind of void of really any faith at all, didn't own a Bible. But I have a secret
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that kept hidden through high school, college, even the Marine Corps reserves. I went to dental
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school in my early 20s. And it was there that I finally came out of the closet. I began living
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openly as a gay man. So I decided to go home, break the news to my parents, and I told them I'm gay.
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Well, my mom, kind of being your typical Asian mother, wanted to control the situation. I don't know
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if you ever heard of Tiger Moms. So she controlled the situation. She gave me an ultimatum. She said,
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you must either choose the family or choose that. And for me, this wasn't a choice. This is who I am.
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I mean, that's what the world told me then. This is the world that's telling us now. Your sexuality
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is who you are. And I bought that. Right. So I told my mom, this is not a choice. This is who I am.
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And I thought, well, if you can't accept me, I have no other choice but to leave. Left home,
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devastated my mom. And it's so amazing how God used crisis in our lives to turn us to him.
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My parents, who were searching for God, turned to him, and they became Christians through that
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crisis. Wow. And when did you realize that you were gay? And what was that initial process like?
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Well, you know, I was about nine years old when I first realized I had these attractions. I actually
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came across pornography at that time when I was nine at a friend's house, of all things. You know,
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a trusted friend's house that my parents knew. So it wasn't like one of my friends. It was actually
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my parents' friends. And it was then that I realized that I had these desires. I didn't know
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what to do with it. And I just, I didn't tell anyone. I was afraid to really tell anyone. This
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is back in the 70s. Right. So I just kept it hidden. And I really didn't tell anyone.
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And then as you grew up, you kind of realized, okay, this is the lifestyle that I am going to live.
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Like you said, that's who I am. And how did you decide, okay, I'm going to tell my parents,
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no matter what it costs me, and this is the path that I'm going to take? Was that really difficult?
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Yeah. I mean, so after realizing, you know, so I kind of nuanced a little bit about
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identifying as gay. You know, I first realized that I had these desires, and it wasn't until my
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20s that I thought, oh, this is who I am. And, you know, it was, you know, difficult coming to
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grasp with all these things. And it wasn't until later on that I realized, well, this isn't going
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away. And I didn't have any framework to think through these things. That's why, you know, we have
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all these questions. Well, someone has these desires for as long as they remember, and they didn't choose
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them. And this is why I think it's so important that we, I often tell them, this is in my next
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book coming up, that I said, human sexuality can't be understood apart from theological anthropology.
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And I know that sounds really big, but what that really means is simply that we're created in the
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image of God. And of course, that's good. We have value, dignity. So that means that we shouldn't
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demean anyone. We should view every person. I mean, even the worst criminal is created in God's image.
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But then the second part that is so important is that that image has been distorted. So that in
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that criminal, even though he has that image, he has a sin nature. And the reality is we all have
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that sin nature. And when I realized now that that helps me to think through not only, you know,
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all my behaviors and thoughts, but that really helps me to understand my sexuality.
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But at the time when you came out to your parents, like you said, you had no biblical framework
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through which that you were analyzing this. So you were thinking about a sin nature. Tell me about
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those first few years after you decided to leave home and live openly as a gay man, what that was
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like? Yeah, I, I was in dental school. So I was in my 20s. And I think I just did what most people in
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their 20 year olds do when they don't know Christ. And that was have fun, enjoy life. And I partied,
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I would go out with my friends. I, it just happened that the dental school was about three blocks away
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from the gay clubs. And I went there every weekend. And to be honest, I made some of the greatest
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friends there. These, the people in the gay community, my gay friends are some of the most
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loving, nice people. And not, and that's why I get really frustrated when we treat all people in the
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gay community, like the gay activists, the angry gay activists that hate us. And, or, or that,
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that, I mean, it's sometimes reciprocal, unfortunately, but we need to realize that
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actually a majority of gays and lesbians are not like that. And these were just really wonderful
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people that just, uh, cried with me when I cried, uh, had fun laugh when I laughed and they were just
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really good, dear friends of mine and they accepted me. And I think sometimes, um, that,
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that feeling of acceptance and belonging, uh, should be coming from the body of Christ. And I think
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sometimes we have some things to learn from, uh, from the gay community and their love. So they
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accepted me. Um, I was going out to the gay clubs, unfortunately at the gay clubs, I started doing
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drugs, which meant I'd have to pay for my habits somehow as a poor dental student. So I did that by selling
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drugs and I sold to friends, classmates, even a professor. Eventually I actually was expelled
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from dental school just three months before I was received my doctorate. I then moved to Atlanta,
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Georgia, and I kept doing what I knew how to do best, which is sell drugs. And my parents really
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had no clue that I was doing drugs, but they knew my biggest need was know Jesus Christ as my Lord and
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Savior. So they tried to reach out to me. I wanted nothing to do with it. Uh, my parents came to visit me
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one time. I told them to get out. And my dad, before he left, gave me his very first Bible.
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And I, they left, he left on our kitchen counter and I threw it in the trash can, which, which just
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really shows how much I hated God. I hated their religion. I wanted nothing to do with the Bible.
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And it was really obvious after that visit that my parents knew that I was totally hopeless and
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completely unreachable. And tell me what, tell me what changed. The amazing thing was that they
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didn't focus upon that hopelessness. You know, oftentimes parents, and I don't blame them. It's
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just things are getting worse and worse and worse with their kids. They're prodigal, whatever it is.
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And it's so easy to give up on hope. And I'm, I just praise the Lord that our God is not a God of
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hopelessness. Our God is a God of hope. And they clung to that hope. And even when things were just
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getting worse and they, uh, enlisted over a hundred prayer warriors to pray for me from their church,
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from the Bible study fellowship group. And they, my mother began to pray a bold prayer, which was
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God do whatever it takes, whatever it takes. That's a scary prayer for mother to make, but she was
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desperate in her desperation. She fasted every Monday for seven years. Wow. She lasted 39 days
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on my behalf. Wow. She knew it was going to take nothing short of a miracle. She spent hours in a
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prayer closet and she knew it was going to take a miracle. So tell me what happened. How did those
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prayers manifest itself in your life? Well, you know, it's a scary prayer for mother to pray,
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do whatever it takes. I think oftentimes we will pray God just, you know, whatever it takes, but
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like we had that, but right, you know, but then we add our little caveat, you know, uh, keep my loved
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one safe, keep them, you know, off the street, keep them out of prison. But you know what it might be.
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And sometimes, especially in those extreme cases, it probably does mean maybe being homeless or being
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put in prison to get our attention. I mean, look through the Bible, how many times God used prison
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to, uh, to, to awaken, to get someone's attention or to really sharpen and grow someone. I mean,
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it's, it's just amazing. And so God, my mom was, she was scared, but she just said, I don't know,
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God, but whatever. And, and God answered her prayer with a bang on my door, open up my door
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and on the front doorstep for 12 federal drug enforcement agents, Atlanta police and two
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shepherd dogs. So I found myself in jail and I called home, you know, that's the last place you
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want to call. And, you know, I just, I was still expecting my parents like their old, old person,
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you know, um, ones of, you know, how my mom probably would have responded in the, in the
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past. Like, you know, what did you do or you deserve it or whatever. And, and her first words
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to me when she had picked up the phone was, are you okay? No words of condemnation, just
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words of unconditional love and grace. And I'm, I'm reminded of what Paul says in Romans chapter
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2 verse 4, that it's God's kindness that, that leads us. That's exactly the verse that
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came to mind for me. It's not his anger. You know, it's not God's judgment that brings
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us to repentance. It's his kindness. And, and that's such a good lesson for us, not just
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parents, for every one of us as Christians that in the midst of our, our duty and calling
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to be a clear and voice and to stand for truth, it's still God's kindness. And it should
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be our kindness that leads people to Christ, that leads people to repentance.
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Exactly. So how long were you in jail and, and when did you actually accept Christ?
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Yeah. You know, it's so funny because like my mother, uh, I didn't tell my story here.
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We don't have enough time, but in my, in my first book, uh, the memoir, um, out of a far
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country, a gay son's journey to God, a broken mother's word for hope. We kind of tell our,
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our, our stories, alternating chapters. She wrote chapter one, our chapter two, she, she
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wrote chapter three, but she tells her story of, um, how she was going to end her life and,
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and, and God just amazingly used that, uh, and, and brought her to Christ. And, uh, but
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for me, so hers was like a, a 180 change from dark to lightness, from unbelief to belief,
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like one day for me, I, I kind of say I was pretty hard headed. So it took a while. And
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I think that's why God put me in prison because he knew that I was going to fight. I was going
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to resist and my heart was so hardened. So it was prison. Um, and you think, well, you
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know, can things get any worse? So I, well, before I get to that, three days after I was
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in prison, I was walking on the cell block and I passed by a garbage can and I thought,
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this is my life. I went closer and there was something right on top of the trash. I
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went over, picked it up and it was a Gideon's new Testament. Wow. Back to my cell. And I
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began reading it. That's crazy. So it came full circle from you throwing the Bible away
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to there being a Bible by a trash can, right? So humorous. And so I took it, began reading
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it and you know, we, we call the Bible, the gospel, good news, which it is. But as I was
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reading it, it was not good news for me because I was being convicted of my sin and my rebellion
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against my parents, but against the government, against God. And I thought, this is not good.
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Doesn't feel good. This does not feel good. You know, it's so funny. Um, I got into sovereignty
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before the, the day before I was to be sentenced. Um, I, I was reading and I just happened to read,
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happened to read Psalm 52, which is when David was so convicted and he's saying, ah, against you
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alone have I sinned. And I'm like, that's my worst. It was, it was just amazing. I mean, amazing
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that God was doing that, but for me, it wasn't good news. And I thought, man, this, this is not
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good news. I thought things can get worse. Well, I was wrong. So a couple of weeks after I was
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incarcerated, I was brought to the nurse's office and the nurse, I just knew something
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wasn't right. She wrote something out of, she was like, she couldn't even speak almost.
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She wrote something out of a piece of paper, slid across the desk to me. And on this piece
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of paper, I saw three letters and a symbol and it read HIV hospital. The days after were dark
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and only, I mean, I, I couldn't even go back to the cell block and cry. You know, I mean,
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I had to be hard like the other inmates and I had to, you know, I just, I just remember
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that night after that whole day of, you know, trying to stay strong, I just wept in my bed.
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And a couple days later, they moved me to another cell or another cell block on my way to transition,
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to transfer to the prison where I was going to do time. And they put me in a cell with no
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one else. I was in a cell all by myself. And I remember clear as day, I was lying there
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and they have metal bunks. So I was lying there and I look at the cold metal bunk above
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me and there was just graffiti, profanity. And someone had a script or something in the
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corner and it read, if you're bored, read Jeremiah 29, 11.
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For I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord. Plans to prosper you, not to harm you.
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Plans give you hope and a future. And, you know, I mean, there could have been any verse
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in the whole Bible and God used that verse penned by prophet thousands of years ago to
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a rebellious nation, Israel, who was in exile that God was saying, I'm going to take you
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out of exile and I have a plan for you. And God was telling me that he also had a plan
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for me. And, you know, Ali, I had no clue, no clue where that plan was going to take me.
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But God just simply gave me enough faith to get through that one day and the next and the
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next. So, you know, it was the transformation was gradually. You asked, when did I become
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a Christian? Well, I don't think it was at that point, but it was definitely God was working
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on me. So the year after I was, I had all this time on my hands. And so I was reading
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the Bible and I, I was just growing in Christ and I came across some passages that seemed
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to condemn that core part of who I thought I was, my sexuality. So I went to a chaplain,
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asked him his opinion. And to my surprise, this chaplain told me that the Bible doesn't
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condemn homosexuality. And he gave me a book explaining that view. He said, this book explains
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that view and he gave it to me. And so I'm thinking, man, this is great. I can have my
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cake and I can eat it too. I mean, who wants to change, right? I mean, if this is who I
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am, God has to accept me as who I am. I took that book and I had that book in one hand and
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the Bible in the other. And Ali, let me tell you from a human perspective, I had every reason
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in the world to accept what that book is claiming to justify the way I had been living.
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This is the other miracle. It was God's indwelling Holy Spirit that convicted me that those
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assertions were a clear distortion of God, his word, and his unmistakable condemnations against
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same-sex relationships. I couldn't even finish that book and I gave it back to the chaplain.
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That in and of itself is amazing because how many people have I heard of even that have
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been in your same position and when they have the Bible and they have a book that feels good
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to them and caters to what they want to feel and who they think they are, how many people
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end up putting the Bible down and say, no, this book is correct. So it's amazing. And it
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really is just a testament to the relentlessness of the Holy Spirit in your life that even in the
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early stages of your faith, even if maybe you weren't even fully a Christian yet, that the
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Holy Spirit put on your heart that, no, this is the way. Walk in it.
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Exactly. Exactly. It's just, I mean, that's the Holy Spirit's job. The Holy Spirit's job is to
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convict us of sin. And sometimes people ask, well, can a person be gay and a Christian? Or are they
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going to heaven? Or are they going to hell? And it's like, I don't know the eternal answer
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or the answer to this. That person's eternity because honestly, that person's story isn't
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finished yet. You know, so God can still work. I mean, tomorrow, next year, but I can say
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that they are still living in sin and there will be consequences for that. And if we're living
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in sin and there is, sorry, that was my mom. That's okay. Don't worry. Yeah. And if there
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is, you know, if there is, the Holy Spirit is abiding in you and there's conviction of
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sin, then, you know, he's going to convict you of that sin. And if there isn't that conviction
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of sin, that there's a possibility that the Holy Spirit might not be abiding in that person,
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which, so we need to be praying for that. We need to be praying for the Holy Spirit.
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We need to be praying for conversion. We need to be praying for conviction.
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Exactly. So how long, when did, when did you get out of jail?
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So it was, um, you know, actually, so it was after that. So I was sentenced to six years.
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Okay. And, um, it was while it was during that first year. So after, you know, I gave the
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book, I, I, I just started studying God's word. I, I, I turned to the Bible alone and, you
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know, I went through every verse, every chapter, every scripture looking for justification.
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I want to find any type of positive affirmation for monogamous same-sex relationship. And
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honestly, Allie, I couldn't find any, anything that was a positive affirmation. So I was at
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a turning point, either abandoned God and his word, live as a gay man, pursue a monogamous
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same-sex relationship by allowing my desire. See, that's the important thing by allowing my
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sexual desires, sexual attractions to dictate not only who I was, but also how I lived or
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abandon pursuing a same-sex relationship by freeing myself from my sexuality, by not allowing
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my sexual desires to control who I am and live as a follower of Jesus Christ. My decision
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was clear and obvious. I follow Jesus. The days, weeks and the months of abstinence passed.
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And I realized that my sexuality shouldn't be the core of who I am because I told myself
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before God loves me unconditionally, and that's true. But as a sinner, don't we like to add
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to God's, add to God's truth? I added, so therefore God doesn't want me to change. But I realized
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that unconditional love is not the same thing as unconditional approval of my behavior.
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Right. My identity shouldn't be defined by my sexuality. My identity shouldn't be defined by my
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sexual desires. My identity is not gay, ex-gay, or even heterosexual for that matter. Because my
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identity as a child of the living God must be in Jesus Christ alone. Right. God says, be holy for I
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am holy. And, you know, I have thought, and I think the church, I felt like the church was telling me
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in the past, before I became a Christian, that if I were to become a Christian, that I would have to
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become heterosexual, that the more sexually attracted to women, the more Christian I would be.
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I realized that even if I had opposite sex attractions, I would still need to flee temptation.
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I would still need to put to death my sin nature every day. So heterosexuality isn't the goal. And
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God never says, be heterosexual, for I am heterosexual. But neither did he say, be homosexual,
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for I am homosexual. God said, be holy, for I am holy. So I always tell people the opposite of
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homosexuality is not heterosexuality, but the opposite of homosexuality is holiness.
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As a matter of fact, the opposite of any sin struggle is holiness. And I would say it was at
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this point, after about a year of my time in prison, that God really convicted me and showed me that
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it's not just about belief. It's not just about knowledge, but it's about surrender. And that
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meant surrendering everything about me. You know, Jesus says, you know, you know, if anyone will come
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after me, he must pick up his cross, you know, and deny himself, pick up his cross daily and follow
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me. And that, for me, that meant denying everything about me that I had identified in the past,
00:23:10.380
including my sexuality. And I think it was at that time that I can say that after I realized
00:23:17.700
that the surrender during that time, that is when I really surrendered my life fully to the Lord Jesus
00:23:23.020
Christ. Wow. So that happened. God did another miracle, so many miracles. And he shortened my
00:23:28.360
sentence from six years to three years, which is really unheard of in the federal system. And I,
00:23:33.920
about that time, I had a little over a year left my prison sentence. So it was about two years into
00:23:38.920
my sentence. And I, I knew that God was calling me to full-time vocational ministry. And I needed to
00:23:46.000
learn more about the Bible. So I called on to my parents and I told them, send me an application to
00:23:50.520
the Bible college that I only ever heard of, which is in our home town, Chicago called Moody Bible
00:23:54.280
Institute. But there were signs on the other line, because I think they both dropped their phones.
00:23:59.040
They made a application to me to prison. I filled it out. And, and I, I was so excited until I realized
00:24:04.960
I needed references, not from anybody, but people who knew me as a Christian for at least one year.
00:24:11.380
And I was only being able to persuade a prison chaplain, a prison guard, and another prison
00:24:15.680
inmate to write my references to Moody's. Easily Moody accepted me. And I always tell people,
00:24:20.640
imagine the surprise of my classmates when I answer their question, what did you do this summer?
00:24:26.560
Well, how long do you have? Wow. That's amazing. And you didn't just go to, uh, Moody Bible Institute.
00:24:35.840
Yeah, I went to Wheaton for my graduate school, got my master's in exegesis, and then I got my doctorate of
00:24:41.940
ministry from Bethlehem Seminary in St. Paul. Wow. That's such an amazing transformation. And like
00:24:49.300
you've said over and over again, speaks to God's kindness, his relentless pursuit of us, that there
00:24:57.000
is not a single one of us that are too far off for God to save, that that's exactly why Jesus came,
00:25:03.820
not to save the healthy, but to save the sick. And your testimony is such a powerful example of that.
00:25:09.600
And I love that you have firsthand experience in empathy, not just sympathy, but empathy for one
00:25:17.980
of the most contested topics that we have today. So my question to you is why, why is this so
00:25:26.660
controversial? Why is it so much easier to talk about the, uh, sinful effects of alcoholism or any
00:25:33.800
other sin? But in speaking of homosexuality, it feels like an affront to someone's entire being.
00:25:41.440
Yeah. I think this is a really important question that you asked Ali. And I think, um,
00:25:46.560
if we can really grasp the answer to this, uh, I think we'll, we'll do a much better job in engaging
00:25:56.040
our neighbors, our coworkers, our loved ones, our friends who identify as gay or lesbian. And I think
00:26:03.600
the core issue is identity. As, as I mentioned earlier, um, I think as Christians, the way when we
00:26:12.600
approach an unbeliever on this topic of sexuality, or we approach a person who identifies as gay and
00:26:19.840
most of them are, you know, identify as unbelievers as well, or as non-Christians, uh, we often approach
00:26:26.660
it, uh, thinking of it strictly as sinful behavior, which it is, but I think we need to step back and,
00:26:34.360
uh, recognize before we address behavior, we need to address who we are identity. And, and again,
00:26:41.380
I'm going to mention this next book that I, I, one of my chapters I wrote is, is on identity and
00:26:47.500
is one of my first chapters, because I think that's the core issue is identity. Um, it's,
00:26:52.780
that book is called, uh, holy sexuality in the gospel, sex design relationships shaped by God's
00:26:58.560
grand story. And the issue is I know of no other sin issue or sinful behavior where it is so closely
00:27:06.640
linked with identity. This is who I am. So let's say adultery. Um, there's, there's,
00:27:17.500
you know, society is not divided on, I would say most unbelievers don't have that much of an issue
00:27:23.840
with identity or maybe instead of adultery, think of, um, sex before marriage. I would say most
00:27:29.220
unbelievers have nothing, they have no issue with, with sex before marriage as Christians. Um, and
00:27:35.500
maybe as other Judeo Christian, um, uh, you know, religions would, would agree that, and Muslims would
00:27:41.160
probably agree with this, that this is sex before marriage is, is a sin. It is not right. But that's
00:27:48.900
not associated with who you are. It's, it's still associated with an action. Uh, drinking alcoholism
00:27:54.580
is, is really associated with an action, which is, well, now I, this is a little bit why I'm a little
00:28:01.080
bit, um, sometimes when people just identify as an alcoholic, I don't agree with that. That's,
00:28:06.460
that's what I do. That might be what I struggle with. But in general, uh, sexuality has become
00:28:12.220
such an integral aspect of who we are. I mean, if you think about it, Ali, if you have any of your
00:28:17.200
friends that are gay, when they talk about their sexuality, you almost never hear, uh, this is how
00:28:23.620
I am, or this is what I, when I'm attracted to, this is what I feel, or this is what I do. It's
00:28:30.020
always now, this is who I am. So this shift from what I feel to who I am, or this shift from how I
00:28:39.160
am to who I am has created a radically distorted view of personhood. And that is why when we talk
00:28:46.260
about homosexuality as a sin, and honestly, I don't, to be more nuanced when I talk with my gay friends,
00:28:52.960
I don't use that phrase anymore because that's too vague. Because when I say that, they hear that as
00:28:58.500
saying, you view my whole person, everything about me as sin. So I, yeah. So I need to help
00:29:07.400
them first be able to separate sexuality and me. Yes. Sexuality, my influence is an aspect of what I
00:29:16.440
experienced, but I would argue and not say that sexuality is an aspect of who I am. And I think
00:29:23.260
as Christians, we often has fallen into that as well. I know many people who walk around and say,
00:29:27.280
I'm a straight Christian. I'm like, no, you're not. You're a Christian. Your sexual desires and your
00:29:32.700
propensity, even for sexual desires, should not be a part of who you are. That's how we are, not who
00:29:39.900
we are. There's a big difference between that. How I am is the distortion of sin and even my desires and
00:29:46.760
whatever that is. That's how I am, you know, the direction of my sexual desires. But that's not
00:29:53.660
who I am. So the question, of course, then is, who am I? And so clear in Genesis, God created us
00:30:00.300
in his own image. That's who we are. That image that was distorted in Genesis 3. But then we get
00:30:06.020
Jesus Christ in the New Testament, as we get in Colossians 1, that says that he is the image of
00:30:11.860
living God and he is the perfect image of God. And so when we come to Christ, what Christ is doing is
00:30:17.780
redeeming us, but also restoring the image that has been distorted by sin.
00:30:23.920
What do you say to people? This is something that I am hearing a lot, is that, okay, so the Bible
00:30:29.940
doesn't have any specific affirmation of homosexuality, but, you know, God is love. Love is
00:30:36.380
important. And if two men or two women love each other unconditionally, why isn't that okay? Is God
00:30:44.220
really against love? We should just be loving each other. I think that's another reason, too,
00:30:50.200
why it's a hard conversation to have, because you're not just talking about lust. You could be
00:30:54.220
talking about two married men that have loved each other for 25 years, who they very much are a part
00:31:00.520
of each other's life and spirit and being. And you're saying that that's wrong in God's eyes. How do
00:31:07.020
you break down that kind of redefinition of love that even some of the churches latched onto?
00:31:15.000
Yeah, I think that's one of the core issues. Love is love. I think that's usually what we hear all
00:31:21.680
the time. Love is love and let people love who they want to love. And I agree with that statement.
00:31:27.680
Love is love. We need to let people love who they want to love. But I would argue love does not equal
00:31:33.500
sex. Love does not equal even romance. And if we look at scripture, I mean, even in the New Testament,
00:31:41.120
which is written in Greek, love has different words. So there's actually different categories of
00:31:48.080
love. We find the brotherly love, sisterly love, friendship love, that's phileo. We find the erotic
00:31:57.740
form of love, which is eros. We have love that is unconditional. That's the agape love.
00:32:05.900
But we also have instances in the Old Testament where they talk about love. There's only one word
00:32:10.080
in Hebrew for love, ahava. And that word, love in the New Testament, generally is good. But we have
00:32:17.820
some instances that talk about that love is not good. We have Judah loved Tamar. And that was not good.
00:32:27.400
And so we have these instances of love that is actually not good. So love isn't always love.
00:32:35.060
The right form of love is always good. But I think we need to help people to understand love. So for
00:32:41.500
example, there's a brother and a sister. They love each other. That's good. But does that then mean that
00:32:50.860
they should marry one another, right? I mean, that's what I would kind of push back. A father loves his
00:32:55.460
daughter. That's good, right? But does that mean then that the father should marry his daughter or
00:33:02.220
have sex with his daughter? So I think we need to help people to tease that out a little bit more,
00:33:07.060
I think. What do you love? Because I mean, I love chocolate. You know, I love my cat. You know,
00:33:14.500
people will say, I love whatever. I love spaghetti. So should you marry spaghetti? Yeah. So love is,
00:33:20.360
we can't just, when we say love is love, that sounds great from a surface level. But let's just
00:33:27.920
recognize, first of all, that love is so multifaceted. We use love in so many different
00:33:34.460
ways. And unfortunately, we have equated the deepest form of love to be marriage or the deepest form of
00:33:41.780
love to be sex. And I kind of push back on that a little bit. And some, especially Christians,
00:33:45.560
sort of, they're surprised because we hold a traditional marriage, which of course I do.
00:33:49.600
But then I push back and I said, actually, marriage is not the highest form of love. You know,
00:33:54.120
I'm sure, Ellie, you're really familiar with Justice Kennedy, who wrote the majority opinion for the
00:33:58.140
Obergefell decision. And if you look, and your listeners and watchers can look online, the very
00:34:05.120
last paragraph of the decision of Obergefell in 2015, he wrote something that was so profound. He said,
00:34:11.400
marriage is the highest ideal of love. And honestly, I think that hit the nail on the head
00:34:18.700
for the way that the world distorts love and marriage. Marriage is good. It's very good. And
00:34:26.880
it's an expression of love, but it is certainly not the highest ideal of love. God is, you know,
00:34:33.960
if you think about it, all the world religions can claim that their God is love. Or I'm sorry,
00:34:40.960
their God is loving. But no religion, no book claims that their God is love. But our God is,
00:34:47.920
Jehovah, Yahweh is love. He embodies love. It's an ontological reality of our God. So I think having
00:34:56.440
this discussion, pressing deeper, not arguing, but just having people think through, you know,
00:35:02.020
this definition of love, first of all, when we use love, it's, there's many layers to it. There's
00:35:06.540
many meanings, but also like, well, let's say I'm not, I'm totally for love. Uh, we should, I should
00:35:12.560
love you, Ali, but that doesn't mean that I should have a romantic relation with you. I mean, that's,
00:35:17.540
that, that's love does not equal sex. Love does not equal romance. God calls us all to love,
00:35:23.620
love your neighbors yourself is the second greatest commandment, but that doesn't mean I should marry
00:35:27.920
my neighbor. Right. And there are, there are different forms. There are different forms of
00:35:32.400
love that, like you said, are good in certain contexts. And quite honestly, the argument that
00:35:37.560
love is love is a circular, it's a circular argument. Um, because it actually love isn't
00:35:43.460
necessarily love. If your definition of love, isn't what God says love is love is the biblical version
00:35:50.920
of love. Love is what God says that it is. And I can understand why someone who's not a believer
00:35:56.400
would say love is love and say, okay, that's great. But I've actually never thought that that
00:36:01.240
was a great argument to begin with. And you make a good point about it because if love is love,
00:36:06.260
then that, does that mean that you can love your family member the same way that you would love
00:36:12.300
your boyfriend? Or is that, does that mean you can love your pet the same way that you can? Of
00:36:16.480
course not. And they would say no, but if love is love, who's to say that it's not, which is why,
00:36:21.740
like you said, it's so important for us as Christians to say, no, love isn't love. Love
00:36:26.680
is what God says that it is. And God is not only love, but love is also God. So, but you know what
00:36:32.300
I mean by that, not in a idolatrous way, but God defines what love is. Um, and I think that's,
00:36:39.980
you know, that's the charge that we have as Christians to be ambassadors of that love, but
00:36:44.440
it's difficult. And I know that you've encountered that as well, but I am so encouraged by your story.
00:36:51.000
If you could tell everyone, um, about your book that's coming out, I think in November
00:36:55.000
and, uh, if they, can they pre-order it? Yes. Okay. So tell us all about that.
00:37:00.880
Sure. Yeah. So my next book is called Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, Sex, Design and Relationships
00:37:07.940
Shaped by God's Grand Story. It's actually available now on Amazon. Uh, it will be released November 20th.
00:37:14.200
So you can pre-order now, but you won't get it until November 20th or maybe the week before. Um,
00:37:19.560
I'm really excited about it. It's, um, I've worked on it over the past four years. I feel
00:37:25.140
like it's my labor of love, you know, like sweat and tears. It's probably one of the hardest
00:37:30.140
things I've done, but I feel like it's one of the most necessary things of the church
00:37:33.360
right now. And, and basically what it is, is a theology of sexuality. And I know people
00:37:37.420
get really scared by that, but it's basically looking at, um, the breadth of scripture, not
00:37:42.700
just the particular pastors that say right and wrong, which I think is important, but I think
00:37:46.220
other authors have done a good job of that. But this is looking at what does it mean to be human?
00:37:50.300
What does it mean to be created in God's image? What does it mean to have a sinful nature? And
00:37:55.060
how does that impact our understanding of sex design relationships? I have a couple of chapters
00:37:59.080
on marriage, a couple of chapters on singleness, a couple of chapters on holiness and discipleship. So,
00:38:04.080
um, I'm really excited about it. And if people want to know more about my ministry,
00:38:08.520
just my website is Christopher you on.com. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm also on social media
00:38:19.440
Yeah. So Twitter is at Christopher you on.com and Facebook, my ministry page is facebook.com
00:38:27.440
Okay. Perfect. Well, I'm really excited for my audience to hear this. I know that they,
00:38:33.360
um, are really going to appreciate it. You did a great job of giving us perspective and thank
00:38:37.760
you for your vulnerability and sharing your story. And, um, for all of the lives that I know that
00:38:43.240
you're touching just by showing them what Christ has done in your life.
00:38:46.520
Well, thank you, Allie so much for having me on.
00:38:50.040
Okay. I hope that you guys enjoyed that. Um, if you have questions, uh, for Dr. Yuan,
00:38:55.320
please email them to me, Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com. I, or, I mean, you can reach
00:39:00.900
out to him directly if you want to do that as well. He gave his information, um, in the interview,
00:39:06.280
but I would love to see if Dr. Yuan would indulge us by answering some of our further questions.
00:39:12.700
I actually realized after I interviewed him that there are a few things that I just wish that I
00:39:17.460
had asked him. So, um, I would love to ask him some more questions. So maybe we can get him back
00:39:22.360
for a Q and a. So if you have any specific questions, um, if you don't want to reach out
00:39:26.960
to him directly, send them to me and then I'll have a log of questions and hopefully I can get him
00:39:31.200
back for another interview and we can do a kind of Q and a thing. I think that would be really fun.
00:39:36.620
Okay. Next on the docket, North Korea. Um, I have a not so popular conservative take on this,
00:39:43.600
meaning that most Trump voters probably disagree with me. Uh, so in case you didn't know,
00:39:49.140
president Trump met with Kim Jong-un, the dictator of North Korea. Uh, they met in Singapore this week
00:39:54.560
to discuss denuclearization of the Korean peninsula, which is unprecedented. He was the first sitting
00:40:01.040
president to meet with a North Korean ruler with the North Korean ruler. Uh, the meeting apparently
00:40:06.880
went very well. They signed this document that culminated what the U S called comprehensive and
00:40:12.260
very productive talks. And here are the four things they apparently agreed upon. Uh, the United
00:40:18.980
States and the DPRK commit to establish new U S DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the
00:40:27.100
peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity. That's number one. Number two,
00:40:31.900
the United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime
00:40:36.680
on the Korean peninsula. Number three, reaffirming the April 27th, 2018 Panmunjom declaration,
00:40:44.060
the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.
00:40:48.460
Number four, the United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW MIA remains,
00:40:55.460
including the immediate rep, uh, repatriation of those already identified. Um, so, okay,
00:41:02.960
that all sounds great, but to me, it also sounds pretty vague. Now I'm not a foreign policy expert,
00:41:09.220
but I, I, I didn't see a lot of specificity in that. Let's also remember that North Korea has been
00:41:16.680
promising denuclearization forever and they haven't actually done it. So I just can't say quite yet
00:41:22.640
that this was this huge, gigantic wind that most conservatives and Trump supporters are saying that
00:41:27.800
it was now. I hope that it is. I hope president Trump is extremely successful in this, but the other
00:41:34.520
issue I have is how president Trump is now talking about and treating Kim Jong-un. Every conservative,
00:41:41.280
uh, media outlet today and yesterday had a heyday making fun of the outlets like CNN and MSNBC for
00:41:49.480
having any problem whatsoever with this meeting. They were making fun of these liberal outlets for
00:41:54.120
criticizing, uh, the American flag being next to the North Korean flag. But you know what? Maybe for
00:42:00.440
the first time in my life, I actually agree with the liberal media on this, at least, at least in part,
00:42:06.100
um, in that I absolutely cringed seeing the American flag by the North Korean flag. I cringed watching
00:42:13.380
president Trump all chummy with Kim Jong-un. I hate everything that he has said about Kim Jong-un,
00:42:19.660
that he's this great guy, that he's a smart guy, that Kim Jong-un loves his people, loves his country.
00:42:25.160
Okay. This is a guy and a nation who has hundreds of thousands of North Koreans in prison camps,
00:42:31.620
who forces his own people to fertilize their crops with human feces, starves his own people,
00:42:37.420
allows no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion at all. People are executed for speaking
00:42:42.520
or worshiping in a way that doesn't comply with the state. If you look at an aerial view of North
00:42:47.700
and South Korea at night, you will see that South Korea is lit up because, you know, it's a normal
00:42:52.620
country because its cities actually have lights. And then you will see that North Korea is completely
00:42:58.160
dark except for the Capitol where Kim Jong-un himself is. He is the only one with noticeable
00:43:03.120
electricity. This is a guy who has brutally murdered his own family members. Remember,
00:43:09.880
this is also a guy who sent back one of our own, Otto Warmbier, a 22 year old kid, deformed,
00:43:15.500
incapacitated, unable to see or speak, tortured to the brink of death, sent him back to his family to
00:43:21.140
die. A few days later, he murdered a citizen of the United States, someone who could have been any one
00:43:28.080
of our friends. And now Kim Jong-un is a good guy who loves his country. Now, I hear that the
00:43:34.560
Warmbiers released some really nice statement about it all, which great for them. Honestly,
00:43:39.180
God bless them and God be with them. But I cannot imagine that this is easy for them to watch if it's
00:43:45.300
not easy for me to watch. Kim Jong-un is evil. He is satanic. He is not a stitch nicer than Hitler.
00:43:52.800
If we were making a deal with Hitler or Stalin or Mao, would we call him a great guy? Would we say,
00:43:58.940
wow, not too many people could have accomplished what Mao has accomplished? That Stalin, he really
00:44:04.520
loves his country. Hitler sure loves his people. I have a special bond with Hitler now. No, no,
00:44:12.040
we wouldn't. When Neville Chamberlain of UK acquiesced to Germany and flattered Hitler through the
00:44:16.620
through the Munich Agreement in 1938. How did that go for everyone? Not that well. Germany got
00:44:22.700
Czechoslovakia, then invaded Poland a year later, leading the UK to declare war on Germany. You don't
00:44:29.440
appease terrorists. They're all the same. They're rats. You don't have to make them feel good about
00:44:34.160
themselves. Now, I'm not saying that this deal is exactly like Neville Chamberlain and Hitler. It's not.
00:44:40.420
It's more like Reagan and Gorbachev of the Soviet Union. But even though Reagan and Gorbachev did
00:44:45.880
eventually become friends, Reagan still call the Soviet Union the evil empire. Reagan still was
00:44:51.180
clear about his hatred of communism. And I understand that this is probably Trump flattering
00:44:56.600
him in order to make denuclearization more plausible. I mean, that's exactly what he's trying
00:45:01.360
to do. I understand that he's buttering him up to make sure he actually follows through on his end of
00:45:06.740
the deal. But in my opinion, it's just too much. I just don't think that America, the greatest
00:45:12.840
superpower in the world needs to kiss the you-know-what of a nation who we could literally
00:45:18.420
obliterate with one push of a button if we wanted to. Now, all this to say, I hope that this works.
00:45:26.200
I hope that I'm wrong. If by stroking the ego of Kim Jong-un, if by placing the American flag next to
00:45:32.520
the North Korean flag, denuclearization happens, if the egregious human rights violations stop,
00:45:38.240
if we can honestly keep North Korea in check and the people of North Korea are freed, then all of
00:45:45.860
this will be worth it. All of it. If liberation happens in North Korea, then I won't care about
00:45:50.820
any of this. And I will say, wow, all that stuff that I worried about and complained about was petty
00:45:55.340
nonsense. I just don't know if that's going to be the case, considering how many times they've
00:46:00.620
promised peace but have failed to fulfill that promise. So we will see. I would say that my
00:46:07.740
feelings are of cautious optimism, whereas it seems like a lot of conservatives are just
00:46:13.820
completely optimistic. And I just don't know if we have the logical or historical grounds to be that
00:46:19.400
optimistic. OK, one thing to say, actually, probably kind of a few things to say about the horrific and
00:46:26.060
very tragic suicides of Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade. I am so sad for them, their families,
00:46:34.300
their kids, everyone who loves them. The trend of increasing suicides, especially in this country,
00:46:40.300
is really troubling. And there are all kinds of different explanations for it. And it's always
00:46:45.680
interesting as Christians to watch a non-Christian world grapple with questions that Christians have
00:46:51.040
had the answer to since Christ came to earth. I've heard people say that it's mental health. I've
00:46:55.660
heard people say that it's loneliness. It's copycat syndrome, where you hear someone who committed
00:47:00.540
suicide and you're kind of obsessed with it. And so you follow through yourself. I think all of these
00:47:06.780
things are part of it. I don't think they're completely misguided. I've even heard people say
00:47:11.860
that political correctness and victimhood have something to do with it. And on that one, I just don't
00:47:17.040
see the logical or scientific correlation personally. But regardless, ultimately, all of these
00:47:22.660
explanations are mostly grasping at straws. We know that the human heart is sick. It is desperately
00:47:28.620
wicked, the Bible says. There is a void in all of us that can only be filled by something bigger
00:47:34.820
than ourselves. There is a longing in all of us to be attached to a greater purpose, to have meaning
00:47:40.540
beyond making money, becoming famous, being successful at work. Loneliness is a part of it. Tragedy can cause
00:47:47.640
it. Purposelessness does play a major role, but the human heart will never be satisfied without
00:47:54.000
knowing the love of the one who made it. And that's Jesus. And as I've said before, I know there are
00:48:00.420
plenty of people who are not Christians who are not depressed or suicidal. And there are people who are
00:48:07.380
Christians who are depressed or suicidal. But if all of us, no matter what our religion is, find in
00:48:14.460
ourselves this longing for something bigger, something transcendent, this feeling of being
00:48:18.820
fully accepted, fully known, fully loved to play a part in the grand story of history, shouldn't that
00:48:25.180
tell us something? If we all have a longing for something greater, doesn't that point to the fact
00:48:32.000
that there is something greater? I mean, it's like that C.S. Lewis quote, if we find within ourselves a
00:48:37.420
longing for something beyond this world, that means that there is something beyond this world. And that's
00:48:41.540
a paraphrase. If there was nothing more than this life, then you would think that the people who
00:48:48.020
have gotten the most out of life, like Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain, would be the happiest people
00:48:53.740
in the world. Why is it that the rich and famous are so consistently dissatisfied? Because they've
00:49:00.740
tasted all the world can offer and they still know it's not enough. They've gotten to the peak of life.
00:49:06.900
They've looked around and they've said, this is it. This is all we've got. And the answer we
00:49:13.780
Christians know is no, it's not it. That's the whole point of this life, that this life is not it.
00:49:21.160
The point is Jesus, the maker and satisfier of our souls, the only one who sees our innermost
00:49:26.220
beings and can set it free. Jesus is the only religious figure in all of history who instead
00:49:33.800
of saying, OK, here's how you get to God, he said, no, I am coming down to you. Do you know
00:49:42.100
any other faith in the world that's actually predicated on human weakness rather than human
00:49:47.480
strength that emphasizes what humans cannot do rather than what they can? Do you know another
00:49:53.040
religion whose most famous missionaries and adherents as written about in the Bible are
00:49:58.300
quite as messed up and as ragtag and as unexpected as ours are? Do you know another religion that
00:50:05.720
celebrates human frailty, that offers an eternal solution to everything the heart longs for,
00:50:11.820
that offers peace, purpose, fulfillment, community, healing, hope? Jesus is the cure for the sickness
00:50:18.080
of the soul. Jesus is the final answer to all of it. Now, this is not to say that we should reject
00:50:26.540
modern medicine. This is not to say that there are no practical solutions to depression, like being
00:50:32.280
more involved in your community, staying in touch with your family. But it is to say that ultimately
00:50:38.780
not a single one of us will ever be satisfied or saved without knowing Christ.
00:50:43.400
Okay. One final thing that doesn't have to do with any of this. This is just random, something I've
00:50:49.920
noticed and have been thinking about lately. This is a thing I just don't get, which like I said,
00:50:55.720
has been an ending section of my podcast in the past. But today it's actually just something that
00:51:02.420
annoys me that I think that we can all get better at, including myself. So there's this trend these
00:51:07.520
days, I think promulgated by celebrities and songs and just pop culture in general. And that's this
00:51:14.200
trend of blocking out the haters. It goes along with the trend of, you know, loving yourself and
00:51:19.540
being super self-confident. I think that's good to some degree. You can't listen to all the stupid
00:51:26.980
negativity that people throw your way, especially on the internet, or else you will just be in a puddle
00:51:32.760
of insecurity all day. I know that from firsthand experience. You can't. But I do worry that people
00:51:39.340
use this phrase and use this mentality as an excuse to silence legitimate criticism.
00:51:45.780
Newsflash. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a hater. And some criticism actually needs to be
00:51:52.280
listened to. So have discernment to know the difference between ignorant hate on the internet
00:51:57.580
and real actual feedback that you might need to take in, you might need to listen to,
00:52:01.800
might need to apply to your life. I also know firsthand that that is very difficult to do.
00:52:07.220
It is much easier and feels much better to say that anyone who criticizes me is just a hater and
00:52:13.020
just wants to see me fail. Sometimes that's not true. And to perpetually think that way is to stunt
00:52:18.620
your own growth. It's a sign, in my opinion, of immaturity and hardheadedness. It's kind of like how
00:52:25.600
a toddler treats everything that their parents say as preventing them from being happy. We shouldn't
00:52:32.340
think that way if we actually want to grow up and we want to get better at what we do, which we all
00:52:37.600
should want that. Okay, that is all for today. Love y'all so much. Thank you for listening every
00:52:43.520
week. It's just, it's a joy to do this podcast with you guys. And I love your feedback. As you guys
00:52:49.380
know, I'm taking a break from social media this week. So I apologize for my lack of Instagram
00:52:54.000
stories, but I will be back next week. I will also be at Turning Point USA's YWLS Young Women's
00:53:00.620
Leadership Summit this weekend. I'm speaking Saturday morning at 11 AM. So I really hope that you guys are
00:53:07.120
coming. Um, I'm so excited about it. Uh, follow me also on social media if you want, if you don't
00:53:13.120
totally cool, check out my videos on CRTV.com, email me feedback or any questions that you have.
00:53:19.300
Leave me, leave me a positive review if you want. Share this with your friends if you want.
00:53:23.820
Um, and I think that's it. Okay. Have a great week. Bye.