Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 148

00:00:00.000 Hello, relatable listeners. Hope everyone has had a wonderful week. Today, I am joined by Gabe

00:00:06.840 Rinch, my friend from the show CrossPolitik. He is going to give us some insight into how

00:00:13.280 Christians should approach civic issues and the role of the government and the role of Christians

00:00:19.420 in government and how we kind of approach all the craziness that's going on in the so-called

00:00:24.380 secular world. Gabe, thanks so much for joining me. Yeah, thank you for having me. So first,

00:00:31.320 please introduce yourself. Just tell everyone who you are, what you do. Tell them about your show.

00:00:36.680 Yeah, so I'm the host, one of the hosts of CrossPolitik Show and Podcast. We're on JuckTV

00:00:43.400 on Friday nights and of course podcast, social media, all that stuff too. We are just a Jesus's

00:00:49.180 Lord show over everything. So we've actually had, you know, we've interviewed Ted Cruz,

00:00:55.200 Ben Carson, Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh. You've had Matt Walsh on. We also will have pastors on the show.

00:01:01.620 We'll have politicians on the show. We did a live show with all our governors in Idaho,

00:01:07.720 all our candidates running for governor in Idaho. So we want to address every topic. And so I'm the

00:01:14.120 host of that show. I also serve as a deacon of my church and an entrepreneur. And so that's where I go.

00:01:18.960 Yeah. I'm curious as to what, well, I think I know, but maybe my audience might not know

00:01:24.100 what got you started in this. Why did you guys decide, okay, we need a Christian-centered show

00:01:31.200 that talks about not just Christian stuff, even though everything is, I guess, technically

00:01:36.000 Christian or theological in some way. How did you decide that you were going to talk about the span

00:01:42.600 of everything from a biblical perspective? Yeah. So I've had ministry desires

00:01:48.440 as long as I can remember. And when I had an opportunity, I left my company in 2016. And I

00:01:58.740 served as a deacon of my church. And I kind of looked around. I said, you know, what is my church

00:02:03.120 not doing that maybe I have a gift at? Yeah.

00:02:05.800 And so that's how I started thinking about radio and podcasts, stuff like that. And then

00:02:10.080 I knew I wasn't good enough to carry a conversation for now. I'm not like you, Ali. I can't carry a

00:02:14.560 conversation about myself for now. Oh, you know, only a few of us really can. Just kidding.

00:02:18.800 Yeah. Yeah. And so I roped my associate pastor into being a host with me. And then my friend,

00:02:26.080 David, he's a black filmmaker. He knew all the technology. He's got a great voice. So we roped

00:02:31.940 him in. Long story short, we twisted his arms to get him in. And so that's how the show started.

00:02:37.740 And the big thing that we really wanted to hit was we saw that the church for the last decades,

00:02:43.300 number of decades, you'd go to church, you'd get a good gospel message, a good sermon or whatever.

00:02:48.040 But you would hear nothing about what does this mean for my everyday life, Monday through Friday?

00:02:52.820 What does this mean for culture? Specifically, what does this mean to politics? And so there's

00:02:57.220 this huge disconnect between discipling on Sunday and helping people to think, what does the Bible

00:03:02.860 say about scriptures Monday through Friday? And so they would go to church on Sunday, and then they

00:03:07.960 would go listen to Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh to what they need to think about politics. And that's

00:03:12.560 such a disconnect. As much as I think Rush has got some good conservative principles and same for Glenn,

00:03:17.820 but it was very disconnected to what the Bible said. And that's problematic. And I think that's

00:03:23.700 created some real problematic conservatism. Yeah. So you kind of sought to bridge that gap and to fill

00:03:30.140 that void that I totally agree was there. And you guys are doing a really good job of filling it.

00:03:35.360 I also think that that works as a perfect transition into what we're talking about. We're

00:03:39.540 going to talk about really the role of government from a Christian perspective and how Christians

00:03:44.700 should interact with and be involved in the government and what the Bible has to say about

00:03:49.320 that. So first, just to lay the groundwork, what does the Bible have to say about Christians

00:03:55.600 interacting in the parts of the culture that a lot of people deem is completely secular?

00:04:00.920 Yeah. So first, as Christians, we believe that God's word applies to every area of our lives,

00:04:04.580 and we believe God's word has something to say about every area of our lives, whether family,

00:04:09.660 government, education, whatever. So the scriptures actually has a lot to say about government and

00:04:17.180 what the government's role is in society and what the government's relationship is to the individual,

00:04:21.480 to the family, to the church. So I think it'd be best for me to maybe just kind of lay out what the

00:04:25.980 scripture says about God and government here real quick, kind of summarize it. So the Bible has

00:04:31.520 given us, God has given us three forms of government. You have the civil government, you have the family

00:04:36.000 government, and you have the church government. So we get the authority, we get the principle of

00:04:40.680 civil government from Romans 13. Obviously, that's a basic chapter to go to. You also have just kind

00:04:46.840 of the case law that Deuteronomy gives us as a civil form of how the government should be ruling.

00:04:54.040 The family government, God's given us the family government as another authority, and you see that

00:04:58.820 in Ephesians 5, 1 Timothy chapter 5. And then lastly, the church government. You look at Matthew 17,

00:05:06.160 Matthew 18, Jesus giving the apostles the final go out, make disciples of all the nations. So each

00:05:17.140 government has a role. So let me define the civil government. The civil government's job is to enact

00:05:24.500 justice, to keep the peace, to bring civil penalties upon those who are lawless, Romans 13. The church

00:05:34.980 government's job is to preach the gospel, disciple the nations, and we have our own form of church

00:05:41.340 discipline, right? So I'll get more in detail on that later. And then lastly, the family's job is

00:05:46.280 basically the government of health, welfare, and education. That's the family's job. That's my job.

00:05:54.200 My job is to make sure my family's healthy. My job, me and my wife's job is to make sure our family,

00:05:59.920 if they get sick or something, they get taken care of. And then our job is to disciple our kids,

00:06:05.320 to educate our kids in knowledge, fear of the Lord, K through college, K through life. And so,

00:06:11.160 but you kind of look at those governments as circles that maybe have some overlap in each circle,

00:06:17.220 right? And so I think that's the best way to kind of be thinking about the basic governmental

00:06:22.960 authorities in our lives. Yeah. And that's exactly what I was going to ask you is what

00:06:26.620 is the overlap? Because obviously they're not completely separate because as we talked about

00:06:32.320 from the beginning of this conversation, Christians are involved. We should care about what's happening

00:06:37.640 on the civic level, not just on the church and the family level. So where does that overlap and

00:06:43.500 where can Christians rightly get involved and kind of infuse the light of Christ into what's

00:06:48.220 happening in the civic world? Yeah. So I think, I think it gets tricky when you deal with problems.

00:06:54.340 That's, that's where the government overlap gets tricky is when you deal with problems. So

00:06:57.600 let's say a husband cheats on his wife in the church and won't repent. Well, it's this,

00:07:03.260 it's the government of the church's job to excommunicate that husband if he doesn't repent.

00:07:08.500 But let's say a husband cheats on his wife and then there's a divorce and then the kids have to

00:07:12.560 be separated and then there's money involved, cars, houses, all that stuff. Well, that's where the,

00:07:16.940 the, the government's responsibility is to come in and kind of play referee. Uh, so there is overlap,

00:07:23.400 but the, the scriptures defines how that overlap is sorted out. Once you have one of these governments

00:07:29.700 dominate or take over an area that God has not given them authority to take over,

00:07:34.660 that's where you run into problems. Yeah. So civil government in regards to education,

00:07:39.780 there, there's a, um, that's a huge problem. Yeah. Part of that problem happened because the family

00:07:46.180 was not exercising the authority that the God had given them. They were giving that authority over

00:07:51.720 to the federal government or over to the state government, over to the high school, public school

00:07:55.100 system. And so once you, you have a breakdown and things start going cattywampus when one government

00:08:00.800 starts to intrude into another area that God has said, no, that's not your job. Yeah. So what do

00:08:07.380 Christians do with that? Because that's really the biggest place that I see it is education for our

00:08:12.660 kids is that especially when it comes to sex education, things that you would think obviously

00:08:17.300 should happen at the home that's happening in the classroom. And parents we've seen, uh, in California

00:08:22.460 and even in other States are saying, sorry, you have no say over what your child learns about sexuality

00:08:28.500 and gender inside the school. So what is the Christian supposed to do, uh, in, in light of something

00:08:34.400 like that? Yeah. So first the problem, the problem with public education is, is that there are Vodibachum's

00:08:43.600 got this great quote. It's no wonder you give your kids over to Caesar to be educated and they become

00:08:47.660 Romans surprise. Wow. That is a really good quote. It really is. And, and the data actually even says

00:08:54.680 that. So, uh, Barna group has done studies on this. The SBC has done studies on their own children,

00:08:58.740 and they've been finding basically 50 to 80% of our kids lose their faith by their freshman year in

00:09:05.120 college. Wow. And so the problem is catastrophic. You have more of a chance to survive on the beach

00:09:12.100 of Normandy than your kids with their faith in college. Yeah. That's a massive problem. And so what

00:09:19.060 we've been doing is basically, it's kind of like the definition of insanity. We've been doing the same

00:09:23.420 thing over and over again, expecting different results by sending our kids to public education.

00:09:26.440 And so part of what needs to happen is really moms and dads actually need to repent of those

00:09:31.020 decisions. That's hard. But if you look at the problem, it's obvious that we're destroying our

00:09:36.840 kids. It's obviously that we are the, we're the problem and we need to reclaim the responsibility of

00:09:41.720 educating our children. And so that's the first thing that needs to happen is we just need to

00:09:45.580 repent of doing this. Um, one of the things that, uh, I challenged my Republican congressmen and

00:09:52.480 legislate. So I go, I went and spoke at, uh, Young Americans for Liberty at a college campus here

00:09:57.220 recently. I'm going down to speak at a Republican event in Boise, Idaho. I'm from Idaho. I mean,

00:10:01.660 I live in Idaho, although I grew up in Texas. Yes, you did. Yeah. And, uh, one of the things I

00:10:07.600 challenged my Republican, um, friends on is why do you guys providing more funding, more education

00:10:15.100 to the public school system when all they're doing is discipling kids to grow up and vote against you?

00:10:21.000 Yeah. That's all they're doing. Yeah. It's insane. Bring this back to the, bring this back to the

00:10:25.700 church. So family, so the family's government, the family's job, the family's duty that God has given

00:10:30.980 them. Ephesians six is that fathers are supposed to nurture and, uh, nurture and raise their kids up

00:10:38.260 in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. That word nurture and admonition is paideia. Paideia

00:10:43.520 is the Greek word for basically a culture of discipleship, a culture of education. So when

00:10:50.700 you, when fathers particularly, like Paul specifically admonition fathers to do this.

00:10:56.260 So fathers particularly are need to make sure their kids are growing up in the nurture and

00:11:00.460 admonition of the Lord. And you can't do that sending your kids, um, you know, to, to, to height,

00:11:06.300 to, to public school. So one other point connected to this. So we send our kids to public school

00:11:10.380 and there's about 14,000 hours that where a kid will be in the system, in the public school

00:11:17.720 through the K through 12, about 14,000 hours. You get about 2000 to 3000 hours with your kids K

00:11:24.960 through 12 around the dinner table, around family time or on Saturday. Uh, so the amount of time you

00:11:31.860 have actually discipling your kids because dads go, you generally go to work, go out into the workforce.

00:11:36.040 The amount of time you actually have to discipling your kids is minimal and very insignificant to

00:11:40.440 the amount of time that the education system has with your kids K through 12.

00:11:44.180 So what about moving from education to Christians actually in the, the, the world of politics? So

00:11:53.200 Christian politicians are just Christian voters. Uh, and maybe it is, it's connected to education in

00:11:58.600 some way. Do you think that Christians or what's your response to the question of, uh, do you think

00:12:05.240 that Christians have an obligation to vote in an obligation to care about things like public

00:12:09.180 education and what does that role actually look like? Yeah. So this goes back to our fundamental

00:12:15.480 understanding of scriptures that we believe the Bible applies to every area of life. Um, having a

00:12:19.940 government, a civil government is not sin. Although some Christian anarchists might be against the

00:12:24.540 government, a form of government, but having government is not sin. God, God gave us a government in

00:12:29.140 Romans 13. Um, Jesus interacted with the, um, uh, you know, centurion. I mean, there's a number of

00:12:35.780 examples of scripture where government's just not sin. So if government's not sin, then the Bible has

00:12:39.820 a word for that. The Bible has a word for how that should walk its way out. And, uh, the government

00:12:44.740 is, is God's, that is, is part, it's, it's in another way of looking at this government's also a gift

00:12:50.820 from God. Um, and so kind of working that out is Christians. Absolutely. If God's given us an

00:12:59.740 authority, we need to render to Caesar that, which is Caesar's now. I think, um, what Jesus is talking

00:13:05.420 about there is he follows up and says, we also need to render to God what is God's. Well, who's,

00:13:10.520 who's God, who, who, who did God make? God made Caesar. God made the image on that coin. God. So we need

00:13:16.520 to be able to render and do it and render in such a way where all things are under the Lordship of

00:13:21.180 Jesus Christ. And so we need to be able to participate in government where we recognize

00:13:26.440 the Supreme authority of Jesus in our lives. And so Christians, I think, um, I know Christians tend

00:13:32.720 to kind of check out of politics because they say it's either too complicated, too frustrating,

00:13:37.480 too discouraging, or they check out because they don't even know where to start. You know,

00:13:41.540 all politics is local that saying, well, we first start with all the politics that are local in our

00:13:45.780 house and how we love our children, how we discipline our kids and how we raise them up.

00:13:48.760 That's where we first start. And then I would, I'd recommend, uh, Christians get involved in local

00:13:52.760 elections. And, you know, the most important election, uh, is not the federal government

00:13:59.220 election. It's not the president being elected. The most important election should be your mayor

00:14:02.260 and your sheriff. Yeah. And I think that we forget about that because we don't hear about that

00:14:06.440 stuff in the news. And it takes even more effort to know what's going on, on a local level.

00:14:11.320 Crazily enough, it's almost ironic. It takes more of an effort to know like who you're

00:14:15.600 state representative is and who your mayor is and who the local elected officials are rather than

00:14:21.880 it does, you know, your Senator and the president and things like that, which is why I think, like

00:14:26.900 you said, a lot of people, Christians, non-Christians alike, they just don't know. And, you know,

00:14:32.200 it's not a part of the mainstream drama that they may be seeing on Twitter. Um, I want to talk

00:14:37.260 about Romans. Real quick, just a second. And Texas is an example of that this last year

00:14:43.240 where Beto or two years ago where Beto almost beat Texas. But what happened was is everyone

00:14:50.320 lost the, got their eye off the local election ball. And you actually had all these judges flip

00:14:54.820 Democrat. And so you had all these local elections actually go Democrat because everyone was paying

00:14:59.620 attention to Ted Cruz and Beto. Yeah, I know. Crazy. Well, I mean, actually that I know for a fact

00:15:05.580 that that happened because my state representative, uh, flipped blue and this is a very conservative

00:15:12.680 district in a lot of ways, but Beto had an effect on, on the districts in a way that we just didn't

00:15:18.440 really anticipate. And so my district that we were all like solid, no, it's going to be read this

00:15:23.800 random Democrat one random who no one even knows has no experience whatsoever. So I can attest to

00:15:30.100 exactly, exactly what you're saying. Um, I want to talk about, I want to talk about Romans 13 because

00:15:36.240 you brought that up a couple of times. Now there seems to be a disagreement between genuine Bible

00:15:41.580 believing Christians on Romans 13. On the one hand, some people use it for justification for complete

00:15:47.120 separation from, uh, you know, what's happening here on earth and what happens in heaven or our

00:15:52.720 responsibility as Christians and our responsibility as citizens. You kind of see this duality. Um, now

00:15:59.200 here's where I have kind of learned, I think, or have been evolving in my own view of scripture.

00:16:07.200 I would have said at one point that yes, it's totally separate, but then I caught myself being

00:16:12.960 hypocritical when it came to things like abortion on things like abortion. I'm like, well, we should

00:16:17.240 totally get involved. We should totally push for legislation. But then on other things I would say,

00:16:22.360 oh no, no, it's totally, it's totally separate. Cause I don't want to be a social justice warrior.

00:16:26.240 So tell me, tell me in your view, what Romans 13 looks like for Christians and why I think

00:16:34.440 you would say it does not call for a complete separation from what we do legislatively and,

00:16:40.760 uh, and, and here on earth and are calling to share the gospel, why those things are actually

00:16:46.300 intertwined. Yeah. So there's a number of, I think, uh, people on the other side that might fall under

00:16:52.920 the two kingdom theology camp or might fall under the kind of more pre-millennial thinking where

00:16:58.340 I'm just, my main goal is to focus on the rapture and so forth. Um, and so, yeah, I think scriptures,

00:17:04.460 um, rejects the, those ways of thinking about civil government and for a couple of reasons. One is when

00:17:11.160 Jesus said that kingdom come, that will be done. We're praying that God's kingdom is going to come

00:17:15.580 here on earth, that kingdom come, that will be done. And so that means, and then you see in

00:17:21.280 Isaiah chapter 60, 65 and 66, that Isaiah is prophesying that the lion's going to lie down on

00:17:26.620 the lamb. And that if you die before a hundred years old, that, that means that you'll be cursed.

00:17:30.900 And so we're going to see a kingdom in this world that, uh, where the gospel is going to go out and

00:17:36.480 it will be covering the world. Like the knowledge covers the sea. Uh, so, so I think we still got

00:17:41.560 another 5,000 years here on earth, perfecting our baseball swing for Jesus's name. You know,

00:17:45.760 I just think we got another 5,000 years on earth, uh, spreading the gospel until everyone knows of

00:17:50.680 the gospel, like the waters covers the sea, which has, um, significant implications on how we think

00:17:56.740 about the government. So God gave us the government, not as a distinct separate, um, entity that doesn't

00:18:04.640 report to Jesus. God gave us the government as a, as a, uh, organization, as an entity that reports

00:18:11.380 to Jesus under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Romans 13 says this very clearly in the first

00:18:15.600 verse where, um, it says, verse one, let every soul be subject to the governing authorities

00:18:20.620 for there's no authority except from God. So all authorities given from God and the authorities

00:18:26.140 that exist are appointed by God. So the family government's appointed by God, the civil government's

00:18:31.760 appointed by God, the church is appointed by God, which means they all need to listen to,

00:18:36.220 to, to Jesus. You know, Barack Obama needs to repent and listen to Jesus. President Trump

00:18:41.240 needs to bow his knee to Jesus. And so our government should reflect, um, a, a, a Christian

00:18:47.460 government. I have no problem with saying that. Um, now, but you, I have no problem saying that

00:18:53.000 with keeping in mind the distinctions of what God's given us between civil government, church

00:18:56.840 government and family government. Yeah. So this is where kind of this line gets muddy. And this

00:19:01.880 is the classic question that a lot of people use to kind of trap Christians. But as we're both

00:19:06.460 Christians, I don't think that you'll take it that way. So for example, with gay marriage,

00:19:10.980 people, um, people, a lot of Christians, non-Christians have a hard time kind of coming

00:19:15.820 to terms with, okay, on the one hand, does the church, the church defines marriage. We know that

00:19:20.220 the churches, uh, should be free not to marry two men if they don't want to, but would it have been

00:19:26.160 okay for a Christian to vote in favor of gay marriage on a civic level? Yeah, no, it's, it's not okay

00:19:35.140 because God defines what marriage is. Man doesn't define what marriage is. And so that's where an area

00:19:40.120 where the government needs to submit to, to God's word on what marriage is. Um, and, and man cannot

00:19:46.480 make up marriage. Man cannot make up the definition of marriage. Supreme court cannot make up the

00:19:51.280 definition of marriage. And so that's a clear example of where the civil government needs to

00:19:56.560 bow its knee to Jesus and not do that. Um, the other, there's a couple of practical issues here

00:20:02.160 also. Um, so marriage is defined by God and his word and the church needs to honor that. And the

00:20:09.740 government needs to honor that. And if you don't do that, one of the things that you're going to get

00:20:13.400 into is the federal government is going to have to be sorting out polygamous marriages. What happens

00:20:17.300 in a polygamous divorce? You know, how does the government sort through all the nasty, uh, difficult

00:20:23.760 situations that can come about from not honoring God's word and his definition of marriage? What happens

00:20:28.220 of a, if the government has to, you know, separate or, um, work through a divorce between a man and

00:20:34.920 his animal? So if the government doesn't honor God's word in defining what marriage is, then the

00:20:40.700 government's going to be dealing with all sorts of problems down the road. Do you think there's a

00:20:44.600 place though, for the government to allow the freedom for something that's, or for Christians in

00:20:51.500 government to allow the freedom for something that they don't necessarily condone? Obviously,

00:20:55.400 constitutional values of freedom of speech. That means people are going to say things that we don't

00:20:59.980 agree with freedom of religious expression. People are going to worship in a way that we don't agree

00:21:03.980 with. So Christians, should they be voting in favor of that freedom or no? So here's the key,

00:21:11.540 key principle here that I think we need to understand before we start talking about voting for which and

00:21:15.900 what, uh, is there's a difference in the Bible. There's a difference between sins and crimes,

00:21:20.920 right? So it, is it a sin for me to get drunk and go walking down the street? Absolutely.

00:21:27.800 The Bible's very clear about that. Should it be a crime? Absolutely not. Is it a sin for me to smoke

00:21:32.900 weed, uh, and get high? You know, Ephesians five, absolutely. Uh, should it be a crime? I actually,

00:21:39.400 I don't think it should be a crime. Um, and so you, we need to be able to, as Christians, we need to be

00:21:44.280 able to understand this is where I think the church has significantly dropped the ball is teaching and

00:21:48.500 discipling their church, their people on the difference between sins and crimes. Cause that

00:21:53.180 helps us sort through a lot of this stuff. Um, you know, is it, is it a sin to murder? Yes.

00:21:59.000 Should it be a crime to murder? Yes. The Bible is very clear that it's also a civil penalty. There's

00:22:04.120 also a crime behind it. Uh, stealing, same thing. Is it, is it, is it a crime to steal? Absolutely.

00:22:09.620 Is it a sin to steal? Yes. And so all these things I think are, uh, it, that those categories,

00:22:16.200 I think really help us better understand what should the government be legislating and what

00:22:19.840 should they not be legislating? The government has the authority given by God to legislate crimes.

00:22:23.980 The government does not have the authority to legislate sins. That's the church's job to deal

00:22:29.280 with, not the government's job. So would, but could you see someone applying the logic that

00:22:35.300 you just articulated to something like gay marriage? We believe that Christians believe that homosexuality

00:22:40.180 is a sin, but the government doesn't necessarily believe that homosexuality is a sin, or do you

00:22:46.320 see gay marriage as totally different? Because as you said, God defines marriage, not the state.

00:22:51.380 Yeah. So I would look at that as a presuppositional issue. Uh, God gave us marriage. God defines marriage

00:22:57.000 and no one, all we're doing is recognizing God's definition. All the government's authority in this

00:23:02.200 situation, all they're allowed to do is actually recognize God's definition of marriage

00:23:05.980 in this situation. So they have no authority to change that, that they have to recognize it.

00:23:11.280 So on Romans 13, some people also use that to say that, um, something like the American revolution

00:23:19.580 was actually sinful because we're supposed to submit to govern governing authorities. Uh,

00:23:24.720 what would you say to an argument like that? As Christians, we got the luxury of having a worldview

00:23:31.160 to be able to process these challenging problems. Uh, and one of the ways, one of the things that

00:23:35.920 the Bible clearly teaches is that all human authority is not absolute. The only absolute

00:23:41.880 authority in this world is Jesus, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. So as a father, my, my authority

00:23:47.640 is real. It's God given. Um, it's, it's, uh, something that my children need to honor, but

00:23:54.140 I'm not, I'm not an absolute authority. If I tell my kids to go steal, if I tell my kids

00:23:58.420 to go murder, if I, you know, if I tell my kids to disobey a 10 commandment, I'm in sin.

00:24:03.900 I'm not, I don't have that kind of authority. And my children have the God given call to

00:24:08.920 disobey dad when I tell him to disobey a 10 commandment. But what they're recognizing is

00:24:13.680 that God's authority is absolute, not my fault, not daddy's authority. And same thing, same

00:24:19.180 thing with civil government, the civil government, if they tell me to kill my children, uh, their

00:24:23.840 authority is not absolute in my life. Uh, if they tell me to go to, go to an unjust war,

00:24:28.580 I have the duty to obey God over man. And so that every church government, same thing

00:24:35.120 church government authority, your pastor's authority is not absolute. It's real. It's

00:24:39.960 God given, but it's not absolute. Your elders authority is real. It's God given. It's not

00:24:43.460 absolute. And so, but that's why we need to be thinking Christians and we need to be in

00:24:47.280 the Bible and the scriptures to be able to know, how do I sort through these difficult

00:24:51.720 situations where, uh, the government is maybe telling me to do something that I shouldn't,

00:24:56.560 or my pastors tell me to do something that I don't think the Bible gives them authority

00:24:59.320 to tell me to do, or my dad, I'm supposed to honor my dad. How do I sort through these

00:25:03.720 problems? And that's when we, we just need to saturate in God's word to be able to sort

00:25:07.680 through those problems. Yeah. And that's why I think it's important to look at every verse

00:25:11.060 in light of all of scripture, because, okay, Romans 13 says we need to submit to governing

00:25:16.020 authorities. But like you said, uh, every point at which we even see in the Bible of people

00:25:21.320 not submitting to governing authorities. So Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, Daniel, those are,

00:25:25.980 are to, or Jesus. Uh, those are all examples. What they were doing is not just disobeying

00:25:31.560 to disobey for their own interests. They were disobeying to obey God. And I think that's what

00:25:37.020 we see throughout history. We see that with, uh, any kind of godly or gospel driven revolution

00:25:43.540 with, when we look at Wilberforce, or if you look at Bonhoeffer, if you look at Corrington

00:25:47.480 Boom, all of them were rebelling in some way against civic authorities to obey God. And so that's

00:25:54.880 why I think what you said is completely spot on. And that's something that I hadn't even

00:25:58.480 really thought about until I heard for the first time, someone say the American revolution

00:26:03.000 was sinful. It was wrong. I was like, hang on just a second. So I think that we're totally

00:26:08.320 on the same page. Now, here's a question that I've also been thinking. I heard a story of

00:26:13.040 someone who said, you know, I'm not going to pay. I think it was, I'm not going to pay taxes

00:26:18.000 or something like that because I know my tax money is going to Planned Parenthood. Do Christians

00:26:22.080 take it that far? Yeah. So when it comes to basically, that's more of a question of like

00:26:29.080 civil disobedience. When's it appropriate to civilly disobey, um, our ruling authorities

00:26:34.880 that God's given us. Um, and I'm, I'm for a, we need to have a theology of what, what civil

00:26:41.160 disobedience should look like. So I'm for having that question. And I don't, I don't know, honestly.

00:26:45.420 Yeah. And so a couple of things that I would want to sort out first before I maybe start talking

00:26:51.400 through what civil disobedience to look like first is the church obviously is in this situation

00:26:56.400 because we need to repent of our false teaching, to repent of our lack of discipleship, repent of

00:27:03.340 ultimately our cowardice. I think our biggest problem in our nation right now is pastors are

00:27:07.240 cowards, but hands down. Um, and so I would want to, I would want to first pinpoint the responsibility

00:27:14.320 of that issue, taxes, whatever the issue is first on the church, not teaching their people how to

00:27:20.480 think scripturally about family, about government, about church government first. And then, um, you

00:27:26.840 know, civil disobedience, trying to be a lone duck, not paying your taxes or whatever is, is not going

00:27:33.440 to accomplish anything. Um, the Bible also, but also what muddies the situation in all this, the Bible

00:27:38.560 does give authority for the government to tax. But here's the problem. Uh, the, this is where the

00:27:44.260 government needs to submit to God's law on taxation. And first Samuel chapter eight, uh, when Israel was

00:27:50.920 asking for a King, they're saying, Samuel, we want a King like all the other nations. And Samuel

00:27:55.640 responded and said, you guys are asking for a King. And you know what that King's going to do?

00:28:01.520 That King is going to take your children and build armies. That King is going to take your money and

00:28:08.200 tax you at 10%. That was 10%. And so Samuel, yeah, Samuel was talking like, that's a curse. That's a

00:28:15.160 problem if a government tax. And I actually think the government should be taxing us less than 10%

00:28:19.880 because I think that God's requires the church to tithe, but we were supposed to tithe 10%. And so I think

00:28:26.240 all authority is, um, God's saying, I'm, I'm claiming all authority on earth. You, you give my

00:28:31.680 church 10% and everyone else takes less than that. So I think, um, a taxation over 10% is stealing.

00:28:37.800 That's my view. And I also, one of the, um, this is way beside the point, but one of the favorite

00:28:43.360 things, uh, if you ever run for political office or if any, anybody listening to the show, everyone's

00:28:47.960 for political office, uh, put forward a law that says, if we tax our people, let's say over 20%,

00:28:55.680 uh, then the government is stealing from our people. We cannot tax our people over 20%.

00:29:00.620 All of a sudden that, that puts into play all sorts of accountability because you know, when

00:29:06.800 that politician starts running and starts promising you a new park in your local area or starts promising

00:29:12.440 you healthcare, starts promising all these things, you know, like, wait a second, we're already taxed at

00:29:16.000 20%. You can't tax us any more than that. You can't promise all these free things. So anyway,

00:29:21.840 having a biblical, uh, theology of what taxation should look like helps us sort through all to what

00:29:27.080 civil disobedience should look like. Yeah. And I agree. Something that you keep reiterating, which

00:29:31.380 I think is so good is that it goes back to the church and the responsibility that Christians have

00:29:37.100 within the church to be educating those inside the church, taking care of the needs of those

00:29:41.280 inside the church, fathers standing up, taking care of their families, teaching their families,

00:29:46.020 rather than giving these responsibilities to the government who never, never were supposed to have

00:29:51.520 these responsibilities in the first place. If we just did that, I think a lot of problems would

00:29:55.340 probably be solved. You bring to mind one other thing that I think is important to discuss in all

00:29:59.940 this. There's a, there's a book out by Matt Truella called the law of lesser magistrates. It's a

00:30:04.520 really good book. I've heard of it. I have not read it. Pardon me? I said, I've heard of that. I just

00:30:09.840 haven't read it. Yeah. Yeah. So the law of lesser magistrates is just a simple biblical principle

00:30:14.780 that says the lesser magistrate leading the local, you know, the mayor, the lesser magistrate has a

00:30:23.060 duty to protect his citizens, his or her citizens against the governor of Idaho. So the higher

00:30:31.580 magistrate, the governor of Idaho has a duty to protect against the infringement of a federal

00:30:37.460 government. Yeah. So the law of lesser magistrates means that you have to understand what the Bible

00:30:41.660 says. You have to know what your duties are as a governor of the state of Idaho, and you have to

00:30:48.460 know your duties of how to honor the higher authority above you. But also, if the higher

00:30:53.240 authority above you tells you to start killing your citizens, you have the biblical authority and duty

00:30:58.440 to disobey that higher magistrate. And so the law of lesser magistrates is an important, I think,

00:31:03.300 doctrine that actually pastors need to recover. So for example, if, if, uh, abortions in your

00:31:11.140 community, well, the pastor has a duty to preach against the higher magistrates. They're required by

00:31:16.800 God and his word to preach against the higher magistrates and speak into the lives. And you are

00:31:21.640 in sin, you know, city council, you are in sin, mayor, you are in sin, governor, because God's word says

00:31:28.060 not to murder, right? Thou shall not murder. So it's a duty of the lesser magistrate, whatever that

00:31:34.680 magistrate is, whether it's a pastor, a father, a governor, uh, the president, whatever that

00:31:39.900 magistrate is, they have a duty to follow God's word and speak into, and even resist when the Bible

00:31:46.160 calls for it, um, that higher authority infringement or intrusion into your people's lives, if that makes

00:31:52.460 sense. It totally makes sense. Amen. Thank you so much. I think that's a perfect note to end on,

00:31:57.500 because in a way it kind of summarizes a lot of what you said. So thank you for this conversation.

00:32:02.380 I learned a lot. I know that everyone listening learned a lot too. If you could please tell

00:32:07.140 everyone where to find you and anything else you would like them to know. Yeah, you can,

00:32:12.740 you can follow me on, on Twitter, GM wrench, um, GM wrench on Twitter. Um, also our website,

00:32:18.920 crosspolitik.com or on direct TV on Friday nights. Uh, and then of course, social media. So, um,

00:32:24.280 thank you so much, Allie for having me on and appreciate it. Yeah, of course.

00:32:27.500 Can they find you, can they find crosspolitik like on iTunes and stuff too?

00:32:32.220 Yeah. Yeah. Of course, typical podcast channels, iTunes to Google play to stitcher and all that

00:32:36.540 stuff. And then of course on YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. Um, uh, we, we do a podcast on Wednesday,

00:32:43.420 which goes on social media. We do a TV show on Friday nights on direct TV. And then we do our,

00:32:48.100 our kind of our hour long podcast on Sunday nights at 7 PM. We stream live actually 7 PM every Sunday

00:32:54.340 night. End your Sabbath. Well, with us. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. And I'm

00:33:00.460 sure that we will talk soon. Thanks for having me, Allie. Thank you guys so much for listening.

00:33:07.100 Uh, I hope that you have a wonderful day. And if you have any feedback or any questions at all,

00:33:13.640 of course, you know that you can email me, Allie at the conservative millennial blog.com.

00:33:18.440 If you do not subscribe on YouTube, make sure that you go do that now. And of course you can

00:33:23.080 follow me on social media if you so choose. And if you love the show, please leave me a five-star

00:33:28.380 review on iTunes. Share this with your friends. It would mean a lot to me. Of course, if you don't

00:33:31.980 want to do that, I will still love you. Okay. I'll see you guys soon.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 09, 2019

Ep 148 ｜ Gabe Rench

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